362 – Follow Every Marshal

Summary

The Prancing Pony Podcast – Episode 362: "Follow Every Marshal" Summary

Release Date: March 9, 2025

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Introduction

In Episode 362 of The Prancing Pony Podcast titled "Follow Every Marshal," hosts Alan Sisto and Matt dive deep into the intricacies of Rohan's military structure as depicted in J.R.R. Tolkien's Middle-earth legendarium. This episode primarily explores the roles and historical significance of the Marshals of the Mark, drawing from sources like Unfinished Tales and The Battle of the Fords of Isen.

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1. Philology Fair: Exploring "Marshal" and "Muster" [02:07 – 07:32]

Philology Fair segments are a favorite among listeners, and in this episode, Alan and Matt dissect the origins and meanings of the terms "marshal" and "muster."

• Marshal: Originating from Old French and Latin mariscalcus (originally meaning "groom" and later "commander of an army"), the term reflects the vital role of cavalry in medieval warfare. Tolkien's choice to use "martial" instead of a purely Old English equivalent like "thane of the mark" is attributed to aesthetic preferences, particularly alliteration ("Marshal of the Mark") enhancing the phrase's musicality.

  Alan Sisto [05:05]: "Marshal of the mark. And it’s got that sort of musicality to it. It does sound better than 'horse, thane of the mark.'"

• Muster: Borrowed later from Old French monstre, meaning "display" or "manifestation," it evolved to signify the gathering of troops. The term also connects etymologically to "monster," highlighting the mutable nature of language over time.

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2. The Structure of Rohan's Military Command [07:38 – 16:58]

The episode transitions to a detailed reading and analysis of an appendix from Unfinished Tales, focusing on the Marshals of the Mark during the War of the Ring.

• Marshals of the Mark: Initially, Rohan had three Marshals responsible for different wards:

  • First Marshal: Governed Etterus and surrounding lands, including Harrowdale.
  • Second Marshal: Theodred, the king's son, commanded the West Mark from Helm's Deep.
  • Third Marshal: Eomer, the king's nephew, oversaw the East Mark from Aldburg.

• King Theoden: Ascended to the throne at 32, the youngest in Rohan's history, embodying vigor and martial prowess. His youth negated the immediate need for a first marshal, allowing him to personally command musters during peacetime exercises and parades.

• Challenges in Command:

  • As Theoden aged prematurely under Grima Wormtongue's influence, the chain of command became convoluted. Orders were funneled through Hama and Elfhelm via Wormtongue, causing resentment among the marshals.
  • Upon Saruman's threat in 3019, Theodred assumed general command without direct orders, strengthening the Westfold's muster by reallocating riders from Etterus under Elfhelm's leadership.

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3. The Influence of Grima Wormtongue and the Decline of Central Command [16:58 – 34:21]

Grima Wormtongue's machinations led to a breakdown in Rohan's military hierarchy:

• Disruption of Orders: Theoden, influenced by Grima, bypassed direct communication with his marshals, issuing commands indirectly, which eroded trust and efficiency.

• Charges Against Eomer: Grima accused Eomer of:

  1. Disobeying orders to gather forces from the East Mark.
  2. Pursuing orcs into the wild world post-Theodred's death.
  3. Allowing strangers to roam freely and lending horses to them.

• Eomer's Dilemma: Faced with these accusations, Eomer struggled between adhering to royal decrees and acting on his sense of duty and vengeance. The underlying tension illustrated the complexities of leadership under corrupt influence.

  Matt [34:21]: "If nothing good happens, what we find out, the lesson is that very rarely if you change something that happens in Lord of the Rings, does it work out."

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4. The Evolution of the Command Structure Post-Healing [34:21 – 54:41]

Following King Theoden's healing by Gandalf, significant changes occurred in Rohan's military hierarchy:

• Reinstatement of Eomer: Though not officially titled the first marshal, Eomer returned as a chief counselor and commander of the king's elite eored (troops).

• Appointment of Erkenbrand: Took command of the West Mark, inheriting responsibilities from Theodred and overseeing the defense against Saruman's forces.

• Elfhelm's Promotion: Elevated to Marshal of the East Mark, leading the former muster of the East Mark.

• Grimbold's Role: As a lesser marshal, Grimbold commanded the West Mark's muster without holding the prestigious title, maintaining Rohan's defense structure.

• Introduction of the Under King: A temporary role activated during wartime or when the king is incapacitated, ensuring continuity of command.

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5. The Dunlendings and Their Enmity with Rohan [54:41 – 77:51]

The discussion shifts to Rohan's neighbors, particularly the Dunlendings, their history, and their antagonistic relationship with the Rohirrim:

• Historical Context:

  • Dunlendings: Descendants of the original inhabitants of the White Mountains and remnants of tribes akin to the Druedain. Their isolation led to cultural and linguistic divergences.

• Rise of Hostility:

  • Post the Great Plague (1636-1637) of the Third Age, the Dunlendings, weakened and embittered, began raiding Rohan's herds and lands, exacerbating tensions.

• Strategic Failures:

  • Gondor's focus on eastern threats neglected the western borders, allowing Dunlendings to infiltrate and occupy strategic locations like Isengard.

• Saruman's Intervention:

  • Saruman's takeover of Isengard initially appeared as a strategic alliance to strengthen Rohan's defenses. However, his eventual betrayal underscored the fragility of alliances and the dire consequences of neglecting strategic command points.

  Alan Sisto [71:00]: "It proved, indeed. Now we begin with a reminder of something that we saw time and time again in our six-week sidebar on Kyrrian and Aorl and in the Lord of the Rings."

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Notable Quotes

1. Alan Sisto [05:05]:

   "Marshal of the mark. And it’s got that sort of musicality to it. It does sound better than 'horse, thane of the mark.'"

2. Matt [34:21]:

   "If nothing good happens, what we find out, the lesson is that very rarely if you change something that happens in Lord of the Rings, does it work out."

3. Alan Sisto [71:00]:

   "It proved, indeed. Now we begin with a reminder of something that we saw time and time again in our six-week sidebar on Kyrrian and Aorl and in the Lord of the Rings."

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Conclusion

Episode 362 of The Prancing Pony Podcast intricately unpacks the military hierarchy of Rohan, emphasizing the pivotal roles of the Marshals of the Mark and the systemic challenges posed by internal corruption and external threats. Through meticulous analysis and passionate discussion, Alan and Matt provide listeners with a comprehensive understanding of Rohan's strategic vulnerabilities and the consequential alliance dynamics with neighboring realms, setting the stage for deeper explorations in future episodes.

Transcript

[Alan Sisto]

You don't wake up dreaming of McDonald's fries.

[Matt]

You wake up dreaming of McDonald's hash browns.

[Alan Sisto]

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[Matt]

Fourth marshal when Alan became, as it seemed, prematurely old. I don't know, man. I think. I think you need a first Marshall.

[Alan Sisto]

Fair enough.

[Matt]

All right, folks, pull up a bench in the common room and join us. I'm Matt, the nerd of the Rings, and I'm here with the man of the west who is becoming decrepit and seldom leaves his house, Alan Sisto.

[Alan Sisto]

Thanks so much, Grima Wormtongue. Folks, join us as Matt and I conclude our time in as friends. Apparently in the Battles of the Fords of Icen, and for this season at any rate, Unfinished Tales.

[Matt]

Folks, no matter how you arrived, you're all welcome Here in the common room at the Prancing Pony podcast. We are reading and talking our way through Middle Earth with plenty of speculation and in case you didn't catch the hint, bad jokes along the way.

[Alan Sisto]

Quite true. We do love deep dives into the lore, discussing our favorite themes and a whole lot more.

[Matt]

But we try to keep it light and fun like a couple friends chatting at the pub. And we're glad you've joined us.

[Alan Sisto]

And I'm sure you'll be glad you joined as well. But before we get to tonight's chapter discussion, it's time for fan favorite Philology Fair. Now tonight we're going to learn about the Marshals of the Mark and their musters. And as I was preparing the episode outline, well, I realized that those are two words that we've not looked at before. So let's dive into Marshall and Muster. Now, we're going to start with Marshall. I suspect you don't need us to tell you that it's a word that came into English from French, but it's actually a very, very old borrowing. Just after The Norman Conquest, actually. And in fact, its etymological predecessor, the word Marisol, shows up as a surname in the Doomsday Book, the manuscript record of the great survey completed in 1086, 20 years after King William the Conqueror did his conquering.

[Matt]

In fact, it's even considered as borrowing into late Old English. The word originally meant simply a person in charge of the upkeep of horses. So it's not a surprise that it eventually became an official title for people in both the army and royal household.

[Alan Sisto]

Absolutely. As the OED explains, this development reflected the importance of the horse in the medieval state, especially the importance of cavalry in medieval warfare. So it certainly fits with the Rohirrim. In fact, that development of the word took place even before the word was borrowed into English.

[Matt]

But where did French get the word? Well, Latin mariscalcus dates from the 6th century, meaning groom, though by the 9th century, it was also commander of an army. And that's where it gets more interesting, because the Latin word maris calcus finds its origins with the Germanic element for mare, as in female horse, the same element that we saw in the Gothic names for Northmen, like Marhwini or Marhari, or in the Rohirric word meras.

[Alan Sisto]

That's right. Now, those deep Germanic or even Gothic roots might explain why Tolkien used the French word martial, even when there was a perfectly acceptable Old English compound that meant the same thing. Horse, thane.

[Matt]

And it's not like Tolkien was reticent to use the word thane, as it's all over the shire. You know, Theoden gave Mary the title of Sword Thane.

[Alan Sisto]

Right.

[Matt]

He accepted the Hobbit into his service. So why not horse thing?

[Alan Sisto]

That is such a good question, because I. I feel like that's the more Old English words. So why not give that to the Old English on horses, as we say. Right. The Anglo Saxons on horseback. Yes. That's an oversimplification. I know that's not what they are, but certainly linguistically they are. And it is interesting that he chose to use throughout this French word martial instead of, you know, thane of the east mark, you know, horse thane of the whatever.

[Matt]

I mean, it has a certain ring to it, though, when you say marshall of the mark.

[Alan Sisto]

And I think that may be it. I think it's more about that alliteration. Right. Marshall of the mark. And it's got that sort of musicality to it. It does sound better than horse, thane of the mark. I mean.

[Matt]

That's right, Yeah, I think so, yeah.

[Alan Sisto]

And I think that alliteration might be the key. In fact, speaking of alliteration, one thing that marshals of the mark most manage is mustering men. So, Matt, let's look at mustard.

[Matt]

All right.

[Alan Sisto]

How was that? How was that?

[Matt]

That was appropriate. That was nice, solid alliteration. I know you're a big fan.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah, I am.

[Matt]

So, like martial, the noun muster is another word borrowed into English from French, in this case from the French word monstre. But unlike martial, which was borrowed into English so long ago that it was still old English, muster was brought, you know, much later. It was a much later borrowing showing up in the Anglo Norman as display, show, manifestation, as in manifestation of power and inspection of an army in the 14th century.

[Alan Sisto]

Interestingly, though, muster, again, derived from monstre, had a couple of other connected meanings. It actually meant a show of merchandise for sale or a sample of goods for sale. So now I think you can see that the French word for muster, monstre, is also directly connected to the word demonstrate, to display, reveal, or to show.

[Matt]

And yes, monstre is the French predecessor to the word monster as well. A malformed animal or human monstrosity. In turn. This comes from the Latin monstrum, meaning divine omen, especially one indicating misfortune, portent, or sign.

[Alan Sisto]

And it's so interesting that the word for divine omen, which then turns into the word for monster, also becomes, come take a look at my sale. You know, my things are selling, right? I mean, it's just so interesting to watch the language change because then not only does it mean monster and then demonstrate. It also means to gather the troops together, you know, the demonstration of power. So we've got monster, demonstrate, and muster, all from the same root. Absolutely fascinating stuff.

[Matt]

It's very, very interesting stuff. Well, as much as I love diving into root words and Latin and all that jazz, I'm more excited. I think people have picked up on it by now, I think.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah, I think so.

[Matt]

I'm. I'm definitely excited, though, to get into tonight's reading. So, Alan, why don't you take us away with the first one?

[Alan Sisto]

I. And of course, folks, we are reading from the appendix in the Battles of the Fords of Ice. And I mean, we're getting deep into the weeds, aren't we, Matt?

[Matt]

Oh, yeah.

[Alan Sisto]

All of this was a massive, what, nine episode sidebar to the House of Eorle, because we really wanted to take time to dig deep into the Rohirrim. So here we are in the appendix to a story in Unfinished Tales. It's great.

[Matt]

It's kind of like being in the Appendix of the appendix, almost.

[Alan Sisto]

It really is. Yeah, in a way. So Christopher Tolkien starts out, he says that in writing associated with the present text, some further particulars are given concerning the Marshals of the Mark in the year 3019 and after the end of the War of the Ring. And then he goes to his father's words. Marshal of the Mark, or Ritter Mark, was the highest military rank and the title of the king's lieutenants, originally three commanders of the royal forces of fully equipped and trained riders. The first Marshal's ward was the capital, Edoras, and the adjacent king's lands, including Haradale. He commanded the riders of the muster of Edoras, drawn from this ward and from some parts of the West Mark and East Mark, for which Etteras was the most convenient place of assembly. The second and third marshals were assigned commands according to the needs of the time. In the beginning of the year 3019, the threat from Saruman was the most urgent, and the second Marshal, the king's son Theodred, had command over the West Mark with his base at Helm's Deep. The third Marshal, the king's nephew Eomer, had as his ward the Eastmark, with his base at his home, Aldburg in the fold. In the days of Theoden, there was no man appointed to the office of first Marshal. He came to the throne as a young man at the age of 32, vigorous and of martial spirit, and a great horseman. If war came, he would himself command the muster of Etteras. But his kingdom was at peace for many years, and he rode with his knights and his muster only on exercises and in displays, though the shadow of Mordor reawakened grew ever greater from his childhood to his old age. In this peace the riders and other armed men of the garrison of Edoras were governed by an officer of the rank of marshal. In the years 3012 to 3019, this was Elfhelm. When Theoden became, as it seemed, prematurely old. Nice one, Matt. This situation continued, and there was no effect of central command, a state of affairs. Encouraged by his counselor Grima, the king, becoming decrepit and seldom leaving his house, fell into the habit of issuing orders to Hama, captain of his household, to Elfhelm, and even to the Marshals of the Mark. By the mouth of Grima Wormtongue. This was resented, but the orders were obeyed within Edoras as far as fighting was concerned. When the war with Sodomon began, Theodred, without orders, assumed general command. He summoned a muster of Edoras and drew away a large part of its riders under Elfhelm to strengthen the muster of Westfold and help it to resist the invasion in times of war or unquiet. Each marshal of the Mark had under his immediate orders, as part of his household, that is quartered under arms at his residence, an ered ready for battle, which he could use in an emergency at his own discretion. This was what Eomer had in fact done. But the charge against him, urged by Grima, was that the king had in this case forbidden him to take any of the still uncommitted forces of the East Mark from Edoras which was insufficiently defended that he knew of the disaster at the fords of Isen and the death of Theodred before he pursued the orcs into the remote world, and that he had also, against general orders, allowed strangers to go free and had even lent them horses. And we'll take a look at those charges against him at the end of this discussion point. But, Matt, let's start at the beginning, eh?

[Matt]

Yeah, yeah, let's start at the beginning. So Christopher begins by pointing out that what we're about to read, identified by him as the first part of the appendix to the battle of the Fords of Aizen, were separate writings by the professor but associated with the present text.

[Alan Sisto]

Right. And it's about this office, the office of Marshal of the Mark. Now, there isn't a lot of historical information about the positions like when they were created, what king decided to do it up this way. There's nothing like that. Instead, this appendix is concerned with the state of these marshals or the state of this office at the time of the War of the ring in 3019 and a little after.

[Matt]

Yeah, and we see it's the top military rank in Rohan, given to the king's lieutenants who are in charge of royal troops, fully equipped and trained writers.

[Alan Sisto]

Now, we're told that there were originally three of these lieutenants. And here, you know, we talked about muster and. And marshall. We see yet another French origin word used by Tolkien in describing the Rohirric military structure. Now, there wasn't enough on lieutenant to incorporate it into the philology fair. And maybe we also have talked about it before, but we will mention it here. Lieutenant shows up in English in the late 14th century as one who takes the place of another. And it comes into English from Old French, lieu, tenant, two words. And that lieu tenant means substitute deputy. It actually literally means placeholder. And the elements are lu, like we see in phrases, like in lieu of, or even the word milieu. Right. And Also tenet, which the online etymology dictionary says is the present participle form of tenure, which means to hold. And that's from a proto indo European root 10, meaning to stretch.

[Matt]

Yeah. And while it's pronounced lieutenant in British English, there are a number of possible reasons, but which one is right is a mystery. The OED rejects the idea that it comes from an older confusion of u.

[Alan Sisto]

With v. And I knew we had to say something about that whole lieutenant lieutenant thing because a third of our audience pronounces it lieutenant. And I just want to make sure.

[Matt]

I still don't understand how.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah, even the OED rejects that idea. I mean, there are some interesting, you know, side discussions, but there's no really clear cut answer as to why it's pronounced tenant.

[Matt]

Yeah, yeah.

[Alan Sisto]

Well, anyway, the whole point is that a lieutenant is a placeholder or a deputy. So these marshals of the mark held royal authority. They led royal riders. They were essentially the placeholder of the king.

[Matt]

And then we get a breakdown of which marshal is where and what they're responsible for. So the first marshal's ward or administrative division was Etterus and the surrounding lands belonging to the king. So this includes Harrowdale, which is at the southern end of the valley carved by the Snowbourne river, and Etterus is at the north end.

[Alan Sisto]

Right, exactly. Etterus is where that valley sort of ends into the plain, and Harrowdale is up where it starts at the mountains. Now, that first marshal's muster was the muster of Edoras that included those riders from this ward. But interestingly, it also included riders from the other two regions, but that were closer to Etteras than to those marks respective mustering points.

[Matt]

Yeah, and then we see the second and third marshals didn't have fixed wards or musters. They were given particular commands based on the contemporary needs.

[Alan Sisto]

Right, and we will get to who the first marshal is here in a bit. But first, the needs of the moments. Right, the needs that they have at the time in 3019, that means dealing with the threat of Saruman. So the second marshal, Theodora, the king's heir, had as his ward the Westmark and was based in Helm's Deep.

[Matt]

Yeah. And meanwhile, the third marshal, which we all know from the books and films was Eomer, was in charge of the East Mark and was based in Aldburg.

[Alan Sisto]

That's right. Now, recall when he and the riders encountered Aragorn, Legolas and Gimli, and the dwarf gave him a little lip, Ayomir replied, yeah, a little bit. Well, you know he's Gimli. That's what he does.

[Matt]

You know, you start trash talking Galadriel, you kind of have it coming.

[Alan Sisto]

Oh, we haven't even gotten to that point yet. Right? This is just.

[Matt]

Oh, that's beginning of that conflict.

[Alan Sisto]

Well, before that. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Actually, no, I think you might be right. I think he had said something about, you know, you coming from the Golden Wood. And that was like Gimme's like, oh, wait a minute, I don't know. Who are you to say such stupid things? So, you know, he gives Eomer some lip. And Eomer's response actually tells us about his position. He says the stranger should declare himself first. Yet I am named Eomer, son of Eomund, and am called the third Marshal of Rittermark.

[Matt]

Yeah, and he also tells Aragorn that the Eastmark is my charge. The ward of the third Marshal.

[Alan Sisto]

Exactly. And the ward, of course, that's the administrative district. Now the town of Aldburg, where he is based. That came up back in episode 352 when we learned that Eorl's capital in this new land when he was given Calenardhon by Cirion, that capital was on a green hill before the feet of the White Mountains. But it wasn't Edoras, remember? And the footnote here tells us about Alberg says specifically here Eorl had his house. It passed after Brego, son of Eorl, removed to Edoras into the hands of Eophor, third son of Brego, from whom Eomund, father of Eomer, claimed descent. The fold was part of the king's lands, but Aldburg remained the most convenient base for the muster of the Eastmark.

[Matt]

Now back to that first marshal bit. Well, there's no first marshal in 3019 because the king fulfills the role, right? He doesn't need a deputy, a lieutenant, someone who takes the place of another.

[Alan Sisto]

Right?

[Matt]

We're reminded that he inherited the throne of rohan at age 32. And it turns out that's pretty young in Rohan.

[Alan Sisto]

It really is. I mean, recall Theoden's grandfather, the not especially beloved Fengal, died in 2953 at the age of 83 after his 50 year reign. But his son Theoden's father, Thengel the thrice renowned, was 48 when he inherited the throne.

[Matt]

And Theoden was his third child, born when Thingal was 43. And then Go was 75 at the time of his death, making Theoden only 32 upon his ascent to the throne.

[Alan Sisto]

And that is a really significant Change in comparison to some of the kings in the first line, especially those immediately following Aldor the Old and now. What's that? I smell a sidebar. Aldor's son Freya was 75 when he became king, thanks to Aldor's ridiculous. Can you imagine? Freya's like, would you. It's time for me to retire. Would you please retire so I could take the throne and retire?

[Matt]

Well, speaking speaking of our British friends, isn't that kind of what happened? Like, isn't their kid now like, super old?

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah, I don't remember how old exactly King Charles was when he inherited the throne after his mother's passing. But yeah, Aldor's son was like, well, I guess I'll get the throne eventually. Maybe I might die before my dad does. But he didn't. He actually lived a pretty long life too. Right. He was 75 when he took the throne. He ruled for 14 years. So he was 89 when he passed away. And so he passed his throne to his son Freya Wina, who was also not a spring chicken. He was 65 at the time he king.

[Matt]

And Freya wina ruled for 21 years until he was 86, passing the throne to his son Goldwina when he was 61.

[Alan Sisto]

My goodness. So we have a 75 year old inheriting the throne. Yeah, a 65 year old.

[Matt]

They're creeping younger. Like they're. They're getting very slowly, but. Yeah, slowly getting younger.

[Alan Sisto]

And what's interesting is, you know, you talk about them creeping down in age. They do. In fact, Theoden, it turns out, was the third youngest to become king and really the second youngest to inherit the throne, because the youngest was Aorl. He was only 16 when he became the Lord of the Aotheod. And he became the King of the mark at age 25. Obviously nobody had been King of the Mark prior to that.

[Matt]

Right. Now, his son Brego was close. He was 33 when he.

[Alan Sisto]

Only a year older than Theoden. That's right.

[Matt]

Yeah. But it's his son Aldor, who was the only other one younger than Theoden. And he was 26 when he inherited the throne after his father Brego died of grief.

[Alan Sisto]

So Aldor the Old basically is the reset button here. I mean, he's young. He's the youngest one to inherit the throne. Even younger than Theoden would be. But because he lives for so long. Yeah, I mean, my goodness, he's just. Yeah. 101, I think it was, if I remember correctly.

[Matt]

Yeah, I think that sounds right.

[Alan Sisto]

Very old, for sure. So, yeah, he resets that. But if we go back then to the later part of the first line. I know we just jumped all the way back to the first three. Aoral, Brago and Aldor. And we already talked about Aldor's immediate descendants. But if we go back to the later part of that first line after Goldwina, you talked about them creeping down in age. Right. Freya was 75, Freyowina 65, Goldwina 61 day or was 55, Graham was 50, and Helm was also 50.

[Matt]

Now in the second line, because remember, you know, Helm's death and his son's death. That in. Spoiler line. Yeah, Spoiler alert. So the second line we get freya laugh. He's 33, but he didn't become king after his father. He was the start of a new line.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah, he didn't really inherit the throne per se, but he was still older than Theoden was by one year.

[Matt]

Yeah. Yes. Now, Britta was 46, Walda 62, Folka 47, Folkwina close at 34, and Fengel also close at 33.

[Alan Sisto]

Okay. So we had three of them that inherited the throne at 33. The second king, Grego, and then Theoden's grandfather, Fengel at 33, and Frelov, who inherited. Who took the throne as the first of the second line. But 32, for Theoden was the youngest since Aldor. That was nearly 500 years before. So sidebar over. He's a relatively young king. He was, not surprisingly, vigorous and of martial spirit and a great horsemen. So he had no need for a marshal.

[Matt]

Yeah. So he himself. This is a very long winded way of us getting to the point. He himself commanded the muster of Etterus.

[Alan Sisto]

Right. Why have a first marshal if I'm doing it myself?

[Matt]

Right, right. Yeah, he's perfectly capable. But since Rohan was experiencing peace during the first part of his reign, there wasn't really much to do with the mustard. Just some exercises, maybe some parades or something.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah, exactly. But Theoden is busy being king. Right. So the troops of his garrison are led by somebody with the rank of marshall. And I want to point this out because this is different from the position of marshal of the mark, which is with a capital M. This is just a rank.

[Matt]

Yeah. So there might be a number of these marshals with a lowercase m, but only ever three marshals with a capital M. And right now there's only two of those.

[Alan Sisto]

Yes, that's right. Yeah. Eomer and Theodred. Now, at the time this story is happening the man with the rank of marshal, but not the title of Marshal of the Mark. This is the guy who's the marshal of the King's riders, the officer in charge based at the Etterus garrison. That's Elfhelm, who of course we've spent the last few episodes talking about.

[Matt]

Yeah. Now this lack of command becomes a problem though when Theoden begins to decline under the influence of Grima.

[Alan Sisto]

Right. I mean, it's one thing when he is that young 32 year old king. He's, you know, fully. He's got his capabilities, he's marshal, he's a great horseman, all of these things. Now, now that he's under Grima's control, instead of issuing his orders direct to his men and his men that he would talk to directly would be people like Hama, who would lead his own personal household knights. Elfelm, who was his representative for the garrison of Edoras. And then secondarily the other two marshals. Right. Theodore and Amir. Instead of issuing orders to those four men, he started issuing orders to them via Wormtongues. Yeah, I don't like that.

[Matt]

People still obeyed, at least in the capital. But they weren't crazy about this new arrangement.

[Alan Sisto]

Who would be?

[Matt]

Right?

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah, guys. A creep.

[Matt]

Yeah. But when Saruman attacked, Theodred did what a king's heir should have done and he assumed overall command of all troops of Rohan.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah. He basically stepped into and became a First Marshal as well as Marshal. Right, Exactly. So he pulled together most of the troops that were garrisoned at Etteras under Elf Helm's leadership. Leadership. And sent them to strengthen his own muster in the Westfold, again under Elf Helm's leadership as a marshal, but not capital M. Marshal of the Mark. Right. He's a. That's his rank.

[Matt]

By the way. This explains why after Theodred's death, when Erkenbrand assumed command of the West Mark in Theodred's place, he did not assume command over Elf Helm and the muster of Etterus.

[Alan Sisto]

Right.

[Matt]

He was. He was stepping in to replace Theodred only in the role as second Marshal to lead the troops in the West. Elf Helm, who'd essentially been a substitute for First Marshall, would have led those troops from Etterus.

[Alan Sisto]

Correct. Then we move to a bit that talks about something that was universal to this position of Marshal of the Mark. Regardless of whether we're talking about the first, second or third Marshal. Whenever there were tensions or open war, of course, each of these three marshals would have a household ayred. That's 120 fully armed riders at his residence. So I think it's something that we, we don't think about often because these days in modern military, our leaders are simply the more experienced, you know, more skilled, whatever. It's a meritocracy. You get to the rank of general because you've spent a long time and you've shown your superior knowledge and skills. One did not rise to the level of marshal of the mark if you were not rich because you have to have the space and food needed to provide for 120 men in their horses.

[Matt]

Yeah.

[Alan Sisto]

So, you know, but it's very much like that. In medieval times, the, the higher ranked officers were, you know, big landowners and their, their people underneath them were the ones that they commanded. So. Yeah.

[Matt]

Now, them being household troops, one can imagine these are extraordinarily loyal and most likely the very best and highest skilled troops.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah, I'm pretty sure they're pulling the very best for their household arid.

[Matt]

Oh, for sure. Yeah. This is the, the Navy Seals of the.

[Alan Sisto]

I like that. Yeah.

[Matt]

Then the text points us to the use of one of these household aorids, Eomer's troops that had attacked the Uruks at the edge of Fangorn Forest and then encountered the three hunters in the fields of Rohan. Eomer says as much. He says, I led forth my aorid men of my own household.

[Alan Sisto]

That's important. Men of my own household. So he's talking about his household. Ered, by the way, I would say, yes, Navy Seals is not an inappropriate comparison. But come on, these are. This is an army. So these are the Army Rangers. These are these.

[Matt]

Oh, there we go. Okay.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah. Now, Grima is still going to find a way to twist what Eomer did, charging him with several things. Right. First, that Theoden had forbidden anyone from taking uncommitted East Mark forces from where they were staying in Edoras.

[Matt]

Recall what we talked about earlier, that the first marshal commanded the muster of Etterus. And while that was pulled primarily from Etterus, Harrowdale and the surrounding lands, there were other riders in that muster, specifically those from parts of the West Mark and East Mark, for which Etterus was the most convenient place of assembly.

[Alan Sisto]

And I don't know, we don't really know for sure who he pulled, you know, what troops he pulled. So I can't speak to whether he's guilty of this particular charge that Grima has laid. There's not any evidence one way or the other. But I do want to take a close look at the second charge, and that was that Amer knew about the first battle at the fords of Ice and. And the death of Theodred before he chased the Orcs into the Wold. Let's take a look at the timeline.

[Matt]

The first battle and Theodred's death took place on February 25th.

[Alan Sisto]

Right?

[Matt]

Now, Tolkien's chronology tells us that the day before February 24th, scouts report at Etterus that Orcs are on West Bank. The Emin Muil. Eomer, against orders, calls his Eored and prepares to ride. Two days later, February 26, Eomer hesitates to disobey King, who has ordered him to go to Eastfold and gather his men for defense of Etterus.

[Alan Sisto]

Okay, now that's interesting. Oh, also, first off, folks, when we're talking about Tolkien's chronology, we're talking about the one that Sean and I referenced a lot back in seasons. What would that have been? 5 and 6? 5. And I don't remember. Now, off the top of my head.

[Matt]

It'S approximately 1998 was when.

[Alan Sisto]

Wow, Matt, brutal. No, it's the. It's the one that's the supplement to the Tolkien Studies Journal. William Claude Hicklin put it together or, you know, did the research, wrote the piece. We've got links to it somewhere in our library, if you're looking for that. A lot of that information is also in Hammond and Skull's Reader's Companion to the Lord of the Rings, but not all of it. Anyway, coming back to what that chronology tells us, you told us you summed it up for us, right? The 24th is the day they get the news about the Orcs coming out of the Emenuel. Emhyr prepares. The next day, they don't know it yet, but Theodore does die. The first battle has taken place. The day after, that emir gets orders to get his men together to defend Edoras. Instead, he's hesitating, right? I don't want to disobey him. I feel like I need to go out and take care of these orcs instead. My orders are to get my men together and defend the capital. But it's the 27th that is key. And there in the chronology we read, news reaches Etterus that orcs are crossing Rohan. And we're talking now about the orcs. These are the ones that have Merriam Pippin with them. These are the ones that are coming down from the MM wheel. Coming back to the chronology, Hama, Eomer's friend, sends messages to Eastfold. Eomer's home, warning him of King's displeasure, but counseling him to ride against the Orcs. Eomer decides to disobey King and sets out with his ered about midnight, taking the direct north route. News reaches Edoras at evening of the death of Theodred. So unless the news that reached Edoras in the evening could then reach Eastfold before Eomer sets out, there is no way that he knew about the death of Theodred.

[Matt]

Yeah. But the next day, February 28, Tolkien writes that while Eomer and his aorid have crossed the Entwash in the afternoon, then overtakes the Orcs at sunset, things aren't so great at home. Wormtongue spies report the disobedience of Eomer, and the king is angered.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah. Probably because Grima told him to be angry. Grima, a little button pushing, squirmy little. Can't stand that guy. So, again, unlikely that Eomer knew. But I want to speculate. I mean, we talked about how close Eomer and Theodred would have been, how much Eomer looked up to him. What if that news had come in time? What if just before he's about to set out with the orcs, or set out with his Eorid to attack the orcs, he hears news from Edoras that this first battle has taken place, that Theodred has died. What does Eomer decide to do then?

[Matt]

That's a great question. I don't know if he, like, does he still go out if. Because then all of a sudden it's like his role is even more important.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah, it is. Yeah. The defensive Etterus becomes far more important.

[Matt]

Yeah.

[Alan Sisto]

Because now there's a threatening force coming from the west.

[Matt]

Right.

[Alan Sisto]

Because the news of the first battle isn't going to say, by the way, the first battle is over and it seems to be all calm now. Right.

[Matt]

Yeah.

[Alan Sisto]

I mean, yeah, they retreated, but clearly there's an attack coming.

[Matt]

Yeah. Like, I wonder if. If that wins out, you know, I mean, because we already know. Clearly Eomer is wrestling with this decision. Like, we can tell that from the text.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah.

[Matt]

So I wonder if this tips the scales enough to make him stay.

[Alan Sisto]

But I also wonder, because here's the thing. Grima knows full well about the first battle of the Fords of Isis. He knows that Theodore's death was the objective. Does he then actually reverse course and try to encourage the king to order Eomer to go after those other orcs.

[Matt]

In hopes that he'll get taken out?

[Alan Sisto]

No. Well, Maybe, but I'm thinking more in the hopes of thinning the defense of Etteras. He knows that Saruman is coming and the last thing he actually wants would be for another entire third of the Rohirric military to be available to defend Etterus. I don't know.

[Matt]

Yeah, I don't know either.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah, I mean, I think Eomer is going to want to go and get vengeance and go protect the Fords and join with elf Helm.

[Matt]

I think his. His blood will run hot with vengeance.

[Alan Sisto]

Yes, it will. It will. Which leads us to this question. What then happens to Marian Pippen if Eomer doesn't and his A don't basically wipe out the Orcs? Do they escape into Fangorn? Do they get taken to Isengard successfully?

[Matt]

Yeah, I think they might end up in Isengard and then they might end.

[Alan Sisto]

Up dead because they don't have. They don't have the Ring and Saruman's not likely to just keep them around for entertainment purposes.

[Matt]

Right.

[Alan Sisto]

Even though they are pretty entertaining, let's be honest. Wow.

[Matt]

Wow.

[Alan Sisto]

I'm just now. Because now I'm following through on all of those things. Like if Mary's dead, does Eowyn. I mean, Eowyn still goes as Durnhelm but she can't successfully fight against the Witch King without Mary's help. Because it's the dagger. Well, it's a dagger, but in Mary's hand it's a sword of Westerness that cuts the hamstring basically and undoes the spell that knit sinew to spirit. Ooh. Then the Witch King can't get killed by Eowyn. And Pippin isn't there to save Faramir. Holy cow. Crap. There's a lot of really bad things. If Amer doesn't go and wipe out those Orcs.

[Matt]

Nothing good happens. If nothing good happens, what we find out, the lesson is that very rarely if you change something that happens in Lord of the Rings, does it work out.

[Alan Sisto]

Well, that's a very good point. Yeah. There's so many connecting pieces. But I hadn't really thought about that until I was just thinking about it in the context of Rohan. I hadn't even thought about the bigger picture and all of a sudden I'm like, oh, well, if he doesn't go after those Orcs, what happens to the Hobbits? Very bad things happen. So I guess it's a good thing that Eomer didn't get word of Theodred's death.

[Matt]

Yeah. Now the third charge was that he'd broken the general order about strangers in the Mark and that he'd lent them horses, which he's guilty as charged there. Yeah, no way around that.

[Alan Sisto]

Now I'm picturing Sideshow Bob from the Simpsons. Guilty as charged. So we've talked about this before, though, on the show. The Men of Rohan seem willing to break the letter of the law in order to do the right thing, Matt.

[Matt]

Yeah, yeah, let's go back to the writers of rohan in episode 187 where you guys talked about this passage where Eomer says, the world is all grown strange. Elf and Dwarf in company walk in our daily fields, and folks speak with the lady of the Wood and yet live. And the sword comes back to war that was broken in long ages Air the fathers of our fathers rode in the Mark. How shall a man judge what to do in such times?

[Alan Sisto]

That is a really long winded way of shrugging your shoulders.

[Matt]

Yeah, right. It'd be like, I don't know, man.

[Alan Sisto]

This is. There's a lot going on here. I got. Let me think this one through. And it is a good question. How shall a man judge? But it's a simpler answer than he might think. And Aragorn gives it to him. He says, as he ever has judged. Good and ill have not changed since yesteryear. Nor are they one thing among Elves and dwarves and another among Men. It is a man's part to discern them as much in the Golden Wood as in his own house. True, indeed, said Amer. But I do not doubt you, nor the deed which my heart would do. Yet I am not free to do all as I would. It is against our law to let strangers wander at will in our land until the king himself shall give him leave. And more strict is the command in these days of peril. And then, of course, he decides to let them go and lend them horses, on the condition that when they find their friends, or don't find their friends, as the case may be, they are to take those horses back to Megeseld and as Amir says, prove to the king that I have not misjudged Hama too.

[Matt]

When stopping Gandalf and the guys at the doors of Meduseld concludes that in doubt a man of worth will trust to his own wisdom. I believe you are friends and folk of honor who have no evil purpose. You may go in.

[Alan Sisto]

I love Hama. Yeah, I mean, what a guy. He's absolutely willing to lay his job and arguably his life on the line to do what he thinks is the right thing. What an Absolute phrase that is in doubt. A man of worth will trust to his own wisdom. I just.

[Matt]

That's great.

[Alan Sisto]

That's so cool. And that brings me back to something we talked about in that episode. Actually in a different one in episode 205 when we encountered Hama in that moment, Tom Shippy in the Road to Middle Earth, we were discussing how the approach to Medusa echoed several elements from Beowulf. And in this particular moment, Shippy says that Tolkien is trying to show us that freedom is not a prerogative of democracies and that in free societies orders give way to discretion. I love that.

[Matt]

Yeah. He points out, Hama takes a risk with Gandalf. So does the coast Guard. With Beowulf, so does Eomer. With Aragorn letting him go free and lending him horses, he is under arrest when Aragorn reappears. And Theoden notes Hama's dereliction of duty too. Still, the nice thing about the writers, one might say, is that though a stern people loyal to their lord, they wear duty and loyalty lightly, Hama and Eomer make their own decisions. And even the suspicious gate ward wishes Gandalf luck.

[Alan Sisto]

Man, I love Tom Shippey's analysis of all of that.

[Matt]

Oh yeah, it's fantastic.

[Alan Sisto]

It's absolutely perfect. But you know, as we're thinking about this, as Hama does this and as Amir takes a risk, I think there's so many moments of okay, this isn't what I'm supposed to do. Right. This isn't the letter of the law, but I'm going to do this thing. But it's because we just mentioned Eowyn as Durnhelm. She's not supposed to go. Thank goodness she does. Right? Yeah. Pippin originally wasn't even going to go in the company.

[Matt]

You know, this isn't Rohan, obviously, but it is something that we see in other places in Middle east too. Like you think of Baragon.

[Alan Sisto]

That's exactly. That was my next example was bare hand. 100%, you know. And you have to be willing to face the consequences. And they all are. That's the thing.

[Matt]

Yeah. You live or die with.

[Alan Sisto]

Yes.

[Matt]

Knowing that you made the right decision. You did what's right. Even if it's not lawful.

[Alan Sisto]

Yes. And that's the thing. I mean Baragon knows he may very well sell his life to defend Faramir in the houses there. Amir is in jail because he did the right thing. Hama too, if. If Gandalf wasn't there to turn Theoden to help rescue him. Grima is still in control and Hama gets arrested. I mean, this is all very serious and you have to be willing to face those consequences. And yet doing the right thing is the right thing. And that's Hama's line. And doubt a man of worth will trust his own wisdom. Off the charts. Good stuff. Absolutely. Matt. When I think about businesses that are just blowing up, you know, selling through the roof like Allbirds shoes or Gymshark where I bought some stuff, the first thing that hits me is that they sell a great product. Or maybe it's a cool brand. But something that people often overlook is the business behind the business that makes selling and for shoppers buying simple. And for millions of businesses, that business is Shopify.

[Matt]

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[Alan Sisto]

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[Matt]

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[Alan Sisto]

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[Matt]

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[Alan Sisto]

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[Matt]

The PPP has an amazing listener community. They're always coming up with great questions and discussions across all our social media space. Check out our Common Room on Facebook, our dedicated subreddit, Twitter and more now.

[Alan Sisto]

On Facebook, just look for the Prancing Pony podcast. Follow the page to get the news and to get episode drops, but you're gonna wanna join the group for some great discussions.

[Matt]

Or if you prefer Reddit, find us there at R Prancingponypod on Twitter, Instagram, Bluesky, Twitch and YouTube. We're simply PrancingPonyPod.

[Alan Sisto]

That's right. And if you want daily Tolkien content, check out today's Tolkien times on the PPP YouTube channel and on all your favorite podcast apps. It's my short format daily show with everything from Middle Earth Map Mondays to Fandom Fridays. And then there's my new twice weekly streaming of all fun things Middle Earth on the PPP plays. Be sure to check both of those out on the YouTube channel for all the PPP productions at YouTube.com prancingponypod Matt, it's time to get back into the text.

[Matt]

All right. After the fall of Theodred, command in the West Mark, again without orders from Edoras, was assumed by Erkenbrand, Lord of the Deeping Coombe and of much other land in the Westfold. He had in youth been as most lords, an officer in the king's riders, but he was so no longer. He was, however, the chief lord in the Westmark, and since its people were in peril, it was his right and duty to gather all those among them able to bear arms to resist invasion. He thus took command also of the riders of the western muster. But Elfhelm remained in independent command of the riders of the muster of Etterus that Theodred had summoned to his assistance. After the healing of Theoden by Gandalf, the situation changed. The king again took command in person. Eomer was reinstated and became virtually first marshal, ready to take command if the king fell or or his strength failed. But the title was not used, and in the presence of the king in arms, he could only advise and not issue orders. The part he actually played was thus much the same as that of Aragorn, a redoubtable champion among the companions of the king. When the full muster was made in Harrowdale and the line of journey and order of battle considered and as far as possible determined, Eomer remained in this position, riding with the king as commander of the leading Eored the king's company and acting as his chief counselor. Elfhelm became a marshal of the Mark, leading the first Eorid of the muster of the East Mark. Grimbold, not previously mentioned in the narrative, had the function, but not the title of the third marshal, and commanded the muster of the Westmark. Then we skip the bit we read last week about the eventual fates of Grimbold and Elfhelm. It is recorded that after Theoden's funeral, when Eomer reordered his realm, Erkenbrand was made marshal of the West Mark and Elfhelm marshal of the East Mark. And these titles were maintained instead of second and third marshal, neither having precedence over the other. In time of war, a special appointment was made to the office of under king. Its holder either ruled the realm in the king's absence with the army or took command in field if for any reason the king remained at home in peace. The office was only filled when the king, because of sickness or old age, deputed his authority. The holder was then naturally the heir to the throne if he was a man of sufficient age. But in war, the council was unwilling that an old king should send his heir to battle beyond the realm unless he had at least one other son.

[Alan Sisto]

All right, well, after that rather lengthy sidebar on Eomer before we return to the text. And now to the time after Theodred's death. That is the second marshal of the mark. This is where the text reminds us that Erkenbrand stepped in to take command.

[Matt]

After his death, not waiting for orders from Etterus, although, as we know, he did send them a message letting the king know he'd taken command at least.

[Alan Sisto]

Correct.

[Matt]

We also learn a bit more about Erkenbrand. He'd been in the king's rider, so obviously a skilled horseman and fighter, but was now the chief lord in the western part of Rohan.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah, rightly deciding that since it was his people and his land that were in danger, it was his responsibility to pull everybody together to fight those invading forces.

[Matt]

And we get another recap about his taking command of Theodred's former troops, but not Elfhelm's troops that Theodred had called.

[Alan Sisto]

Right, Exactly. Yeah.

[Matt]

But of course that's mostly recap. Then we come to the situation after the battles and more importantly after Theoden's healing.

[Alan Sisto]

Correct. And now that he's healed, the king takes command personally. Amir is reinstated and he is given what is essentially, but not actually the role of first marshal. And if you remember, he had been the third marshal. Now his responsibility in that role is to immediately take command if Theoden either dies or for some other reason couldn't leave.

[Matt]

But since the king was in command, the title of first Marshal wasn't used. Again, no need if the king is leading.

[Alan Sisto]

Right.

[Matt]

So long as Theoden was king in arms, Eomer was limited to an advisory role and prohibited from issuing orders.

[Alan Sisto]

And the text basically compares him to Aragorn in this role. Right. He's a incredible champion among the king's companions. He's going to be an advisor, but he's not in a position to command or lead troops.

[Matt]

But if we go back to the chapter Helm's Deep and the meeting with that weary man returning from the fords, we read that he asks, is Eomer here? Suggesting he thinks Eomer would be in command.

[Alan Sisto]

Right.

[Matt]

Even as at the end of his report he asks, where is Eomer? Tell him there is no hope ahead. He should return to Etterus before the wolves of Isengard come there.

[Alan Sisto]

Exactly. It's only after Theoden reveals himself that Cheoral says, command me, lord, and pardon me. I thought clearly indicating that he believed Eomer to be in command in Theoden's stead as the third marshal. Because think about it. The second marshal is dead and there's no first marshal.

[Matt]

Right. Naturally, you would assume there's the guy. Yeah. Is the guy. Yeah. We then fast forward to after their victory at Helm's Deep, to the muster of all the Rohirrim at Harrowdale as Theoden prepared to lead his entire people to the rescue of Gondor at the Pelenor. Eomer's role now is still about the same. He stays in this unofficial first marshal role, ready to step in for the king. But only if he was dead or incapacitated.

[Alan Sisto]

Right. But he is now leading some troops. He's commanding the lead ered, the king's company, frankly the most elite of all the riders in Rohan. And he's also in the role of chief counselor to the king.

[Matt]

In the meantime, elf Helm has been promoted. He's no longer just a marshal with a little m He's now a Marshal of the Mark with a capital M. That's right.

[Alan Sisto]

It doesn't come with any raise or any extra benefits, but you do have extra responsibilities. Congratulations.

[Matt]

It's not even a different title, it's just capitalized.

[Alan Sisto]

And no, you don't get any more PTO either. No. Now, which Marshall position he gets is not identified. But given Amer's role as the unofficial first Marshal and the details we're going to see coming up on Grimbold, it would seem that Elfhelm is the second Marshal and he's leading the first Arad of his muster. And that's the muster of the East Marsh.

[Matt]

And Grimbold, interestingly, he's not promoted to the rank of Marshal of the Mark, but he's given the duties of that role commanding the muster of the West Mark, many of whom undoubtedly served under his leadership at the battles of the Fords of Isen.

[Alan Sisto]

That's right. Now the footnote does give us a few more details on Grimbold. He was a lesser marshal lowercase M there. So he's another one of these people who has the rank of Marshal but not the position of Marshal of the Mark. He was a lesser marshal of the Riders of Westmark in Theodred's command and was given this position as a man of valor in both the battles at the Fords. But why not the rank. Right.

[Matt]

Why is they're coming up against the salary cap is.

[Alan Sisto]

There you go. They could only have three.

[Matt]

How's that for a sports ball thing that I just threw in there? That's like deep cut sports ball too. Like.

[Alan Sisto]

But sorry, what about the Larry Bird exemption?

[Matt]

Oh, the. They have the bird rights. Oh, man, we are losing so many people.

[Alan Sisto]

We're going to come right back on track. That's. Yeah. Now the reason that he doesn't get the position of Marshall, the Mark, even though he's the rank of Marshall, is because Erken Brand was an older man and the King felt that. Don't say it. Don't say it, Matt. Every time I say older man, I can hear the joke coming in your brain from there, from 2,000 miles away.

[Matt]

I mean in your head, rent free. Now, I don't even have to say the jokes. You just.

[Alan Sisto]

I'm sending you the invoice. Erkenbrand was an older man and the king felt the need of one of dignity and authority to leave behind in command of such forces as could be spared for the defense of Rohan. And remember, Erkenbrand is the one who took over after Theodred's death. Arguably, Erkenbrand is the one who has that seniority and would be the marshal of the mark in that case. And so therefore, yeah, Grimbold's going to be right underneath him, but he's not going to get marshal the mark.

[Matt]

Now, we skipped the rest of this paragraph because we went over it last week as an epilogue about what happened to Grimbold and Elf Helm.

[Alan Sisto]

Right.

[Matt]

But to recap, Grimbull died on the Pelenor, while Elf Helm became King Eomer's lieutenant or lieutenant, or lieutenant.

[Alan Sisto]

Thank you. He was left in command of those riders that remained when Amer went with Aragorn to the Moranon. And then, of course, Elf Helm ended up defeating the Orc army that had come across into an Orion.

[Matt]

But after it was all over and Eomer came back to Etterus as king of the mark, he changed the leadership structure a bit, making it a flatter structure.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah, very modern CEO sort of approach here. Right. Let's just flatten this org chart. I can see him now, you know, getting together is. Let's do a TED Talk on this.

[Matt]

Yeah.

[Alan Sisto]

Eric and Brand and Elf Helm become marshals of the west and East Marks, respectively. They're no longer second and third marshals. And that's because there's no more of this authority or precedent that either would have over the other. So it literally is a flatter command structure. I mean, in this case, they are seen as equals. There's no more first marshal role either. Instead, there is now an office called Under King, but it's only used in time of war.

[Matt]

And while you'd be forgiven for comparing it to the role of a steward of Gondor, it's a bit more than that. Yes, they'd rule Rohan while the king is off at war, but he'd also take command of the army if the king stayed home, which, I don't know, is something.

[Alan Sisto]

I mean, I know some of the stewards did, but I don't think that was necessarily a universal trait for the stewards. Anyway, if the position of under king was ever filled during peacetime, it was only when the king was sick or aged. And the under king in those situations was always the heir, so long as he was old enough. And then we get a final note here that interestingly echoes what we talked about back when Ondohero and his sons Ardomir and Faramir were killed in battle with the Rain Riders all the way back at the beginning of our run together. Matt.

[Matt]

Wow. Yeah. And in Rohan, too, the. The custom was that an older king shouldn't send their heir to war outside the borders of Rohan unless there was at least one more son. And it's that whole heir and a spare thing. Yeah.

[Alan Sisto]

And I love this because this is just forward thinking, you know. It's just we've got to protect the kingdom and at whatever price that is. That means there has to be an heir so that we don't have these. These problems or questions of succession. And, you know, that's why it was a problem when Faramir the younger of the two sons of on to her, you know decided to get in disguise and go head off to war. Because then when his father and brother get killed and then he gets killed well, now what? Right?

[Matt]

Yeah.

[Alan Sisto]

And it's the same thing. Rohan doesn't want the problem. It does.

[Matt]

And Rohan, it's like we don't want the drama. We don't want the drama. That's what it's all about.

[Alan Sisto]

We're a drama. Free land here in Rohan.

[Matt]

Yeah, well, we've. We've talked a lot about the Rohirrim and from time to time we mention their neighbors. But we're going to dive deeper into some of the neighbors of the Rohir here. Alan, why don't you take us away with the next reading?

[Alan Sisto]

All right. In ancient days the southern and eastern bounds of the North Kingdom had been the Gray Flood. Flood. The western bounds of the South Kingdom was the Isen to the land between the Enedwaith, or Middle Region. Few Numenoreans had ever come and none had settled there in the days of the kings. It was part of the realm of Gondor but it was of little concern to them except for the patrolling and upkeep of the great Royal Road. This went all the way from Osgiliath and Minas Tirith to Fornost in the far north crossed the fords of Isen and passed through Enedwaith keeping to the higher land in the center and northeast until it had to descend to the Westlands about the Lower Greyflood which it crossed on a raised causeway leading to a great bridge at Tharbad. In those days the region was little peopled. In the marshlands of the mouths of Greyflood and Isen lived a few tribes of wild Men, fishers and fowlers but akin in race and speech to the Druedain of the woods of Anorien. In the foothills of the western side of the Misty Mountains lived the remnants of the people that the Rohirrim later called the Dunlendings. A sullen folk akin to the ancient inhabitants of the White Mountain Valleys whom Isildur cursed. They had little love of Gondor but, though hardy and bold enough were too few and too much in awe of the might of the kings to trouble them or to turn their eyes away from the east whence all their chief perils came. The Dunlendings suffered like all the peoples of Arnor and Gondor in the great plague of the years 1636 to 1637 of the third Age. But less than most since they dwelt apart and had few dealings with other men. When the days of the kings ended and the waning of Gondor began they ceased, in fact, to be subjects of Gondor. The Royal Road was unkept in Enedwaith and the Bridge of Tharbad, becoming ruinous was replaced only by a dangerous ford. The bounds of Gondor were the Isen and the Gap of Calenardhon, as it was then called. The Gap was watched by the fortresses of Aglarond the Hornburg and Angrenost. Isengard and the Fords of Isen the only easy entrance to Gondor were ever guarded against any incursion from the Wildlands. But during the watchful peace from 2063-2460 the people of Calenardhon dwindled. The more vigorous, year by year went eastward to hold the line of the Anduin. Those that remained became rustic and far removed from the concerns of Minas Tirith. The garrisons of the forts were not renewed and were left to the care of local hereditary chieftains whose subjects were of more and more mixed blood. For the Dunlendings drifted steadily and unchecked over the Isen.

[Matt]

Now, obviously, we shift gears completely here as we move to a discussion about the Dunlendings and Saruman.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah, no more command structure of Rohan.

[Matt]

Right. Yeah, we're kind of done with that. And, you know, we skipped the note from Christopher where he acknowledges that much of what is included here might be repeat information. But as he says, I have thought it best to give it it in full.

[Alan Sisto]

That's right. Now, as for those details that's what we read starting with a description of some of the boundaries of Arnor and Gondor.

[Matt]

Arnor's southern and eastern border was the Gray Flood also known as the Guathlo. And Gondor's western border was the Isen.

[Alan Sisto]

And that left a land in the middle called the Enedwaith. The text says, literally, middle Region and that's because that's what the word means, Ened or Enev is Sindarin for middle or center. We see it similar quenya cognate enda in Endore, the Quenya word for Middle Earth, which is literally Middle land. The second element of Enedwaith is a lenited form of gwaith, meaning people, though it's often used of their land as well. I'm thinking of a place like Forodwaith, which is both the place and the people of the North.

[Matt]

And being the land in the middle. Well, the Numenoreans just didn't go there very often, and no settlements had been built there. We get an interesting statement that in the days of the Kings it was part of the realm of Gondor. But Christopher acknowledges that this might not be correct. The statement that Ened Waith was in the days of the kings part of the realm of Gondor seems to conflict with that immediately preceding that, the western bounds of the South Kingdom was the Isen. Elsewhere it is said that Ened Wythe belonged to neither kingdom.

[Alan Sisto]

Now, whether it was part of the kingdom or not, they didn't really care about it. That's kind of the point, except for the maintenance and safety of the Great Road. And that's the road that went from Osgilia all the way up to Fordust. Now, from the fords of Isen, the road passed through this region of Enedwaith. And while the road stayed at higher elevation for the most part, it did have to drop down to cross the Gray Flood at Tharbad.

[Matt]

In those days of the kings, there weren't a lot of people living here in Ened Midwife. Not just no Gondorians, but not much of anybody. Although in the places where the Gray Flood and Aizen reached the sea, there was what the text says, a few tribes of wild men. And they're described by what they do. They're fishers and fowlers. Those are bird hunters, in case you're not familiar.

[Alan Sisto]

Now, we're also told that they look and sound a lot like the Druidyne that we encountered during the ride of the Rohirrim Channel Chapter There is a mention of some people in this area in the history of Galadriel and Celeborn in the appendix that talks about the port of Lond Dire, which was a Numenorean harbor built at the mouth of the Grey Flood.

[Matt]

There we learn that in Enedwaith, the remnants of the Dunlendings lived in the east in the foothills of the Misty Mountains, and a fairly numerous but barbarous fisher folk dwelt between the mouths of the Gwathlo and the Angren, which is the Isen.

[Alan Sisto]

Now, Christopher acknowledges that no mention is made there of any connection between these people and the Druedyne, though the latter are said to have dwelt and to have survived there into the Third Age in the promontory of Andrast, south of the mouths of Isen. So it is conceivable that it's them then. We're told about the remnants of the Dunlendings. They are described as a sullen folk. Sullan, of course, is just bad tempered and sulky, gloomy. I mean, life of the party, these folks. I want to hang out.

[Matt]

Yeah, yeah, totally. And it turns out they're kin to the people who lived in the veils of the White Mountains that Isildur had to curse for their betrayal.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah. Count me as not surprised.

[Matt]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, we'll see. That mentioned again in Appendix F. It says the Dunlendings were a remnant of the peoples that had dwelt in the veils of the White Mountains in ages past. The dead Men of Dunharrow were their kin but in the dark years, others had removed to the southern dales of the Misty Mountains. In other words, those who'd we'd come to know as the Dunlendings.

[Alan Sisto]

But those ancestors also went further north than that, according to Appendix F. And thence some had passed into the Empty Lands as far north as the Barrow Downs. From them came the Men of Breeze.

[Matt]

Yeah, fortunately they didn't say, you know, they didn't stay sullen and bad tempered.

[Alan Sisto]

The Men of breed did not stay. Yeah, clearly Barlamon is not sullen or bad tempered.

[Matt]

No, no, good old Barliman. But long before these, that being the Men of Bree had become subjects of the North Kingdom of Arnor and had taken up the Westron language. Only in Dunland did men of this race hold to their old speech and manners a secret Folk unfriendly to the Dunedain, hating the Rohirrim, just, you know.

[Alan Sisto]

Holding a grudge for generations. I guess it's just an easier thing.

[Matt]

That's what people do.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah. Not only did they.

[Matt]

Real Hatfields and McCoys type stuff.

[Alan Sisto]

Seriously, they just hate everybody. Because not only did they hate the Rohirrim, when the time came, they hated Gondor too. There just weren't enough of them to cause Gondor any trouble. Right, and they were afraid of Gondor to begin with.

[Matt]

Yeah. But more than that, they faced many of of you know the same challenges. We're told that they also suffered during the great plague.

[Alan Sisto]

Wouldn't they all?

[Matt]

Yeah, I was gonna say who didn't? There's a few who got it less horrible, I guess.

[Alan Sisto]

I suppose. And they're one of them. Yeah.

[Matt]

Yeah. And even if they suffered a bit less because they're isolated. I guess being sullen has its advantages in times of plague. You know. They're interested to hang out with you.

[Alan Sisto]

Anyway. So this is.

[Matt]

As an introvert. I can identify with this, you know.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah. That works.

[Matt]

Keeping to yourself. It kind of works sometimes.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah. Sometimes there's an advantage.

[Matt]

And the sickies are going around.

[Alan Sisto]

So they eventually stopped even being subjects of Gondor after the Days of the Kings ended. Remember, Gondor had to shrink their borders a lot. So this makes sense. But that meant the road falling into disrepair especially and importantly the bridge at Tharbad so that anybody traveling on the road would then have to cross the river at what the text describes as a dangerous force ford.

[Matt]

Yeah.

[Alan Sisto]

Which I think of as a 1973 Pinto.

[Matt]

I was just gonna say. You're gonna say a car thing right now.

[Alan Sisto]

Dangerous ford. All right.

[Matt]

Then we get a reminder of the importance of the fords themselves. The Gap, then called the Gap of Kali Narthon not the Gap of Rohan as we know it was guarded by the Hornberg and Isengard. But the fords would be an easy entrance into Gondor.

[Alan Sisto]

That's right.

[Matt]

You know, so. So that's when we're told that Gondor guarded against incursion from the Wildlands which is ened.

[Alan Sisto]

Waithe right now. Unfortunately, their watch on that region faded during the watchful peace as the people in that region shrank. The bold among them went east to defend the Anduin against invasion while the ones that remained the, shall we say, less bold. They didn't much concern themselves with Gondor. And it seems that Gondor didn't much concern themselves with them either. Yeah.

[Matt]

Yeah. The garrisons disbanded and the forts were left to local hereditary chieftains. And this is a problem because the Dunlenings keep drifting into this region and intermarry providing subjects that are of mixed blood and we should add, mixed loyalty.

[Alan Sisto]

That's right.

[Matt]

And we stopped reading here because the next bit really is a recap of what we learned during our six episode sidebar on Kyrion and Ao.

[Alan Sisto]

Right. How the Eotheod came to save the day Destroy the invaders were given the land of Calenardh on which they quickly began to settle. But we did also learn here that under two of the earlier kings of Rohan, and these were the two immediately following Eorl. So that's what Brego and Aldor the Dunlendings were rooted out again and driven away beyond the Isen and the fords of Isen were guarded. Thus the Rohirrim earned the hatred of the Dunlendings.

[Matt]

So they already had problems long before Frecko was killed by Helm. Just to be clear.

[Alan Sisto]

Yes, they did.

[Matt]

This hatred meant that anytime Rohan was in trouble, the Dunlendings would attack.

[Alan Sisto]

That's right. They're not strong enough to attack them when they're not in trouble. Right, but they're definitely going to kick them while they're down.

[Matt]

Yeah, they're just going to make bad situations worse.

[Alan Sisto]

I can say to my new Samsung Galaxy S25 Ultra hey, find a keto friendly restaurant nearby and text it to Beth and Steve. And it does without me lifting a finger so I can get in more squats anywhere I can. 1, 2, 3 will that be cash or credit?

[Matt]

Credit.

[Alan Sisto]

4 Galaxy S25 Ultra the AI companion that does the heavy lifting. So you can do you get [e-mail] compatible with select apps. Requires Google Gemini account. Results may vary based on input. Check responses for accuracy. Over the past several days, three females have been found dead. Looks like someone's going after these girls.

[Matt]

Then they have to know to watch their backs.

[Alan Sisto]

Streaming March 13 you really want what happened if it's when it happened to you.

[Matt]

Exactly why I need to keep going on this.

[Alan Sisto]

Starring Emmy Award winner Amanda Seyfried.

[Matt]

Worry about what you're gonna find.

[Alan Sisto]

So am I. Long Bright River a limited series streaming.

[Matt]

March 13th only on Peacock Foreign.

[Alan Sisto]

Folks. If you're enjoying the PPP, please consider supporting the show by joining the Fellowship of the Podcast. It's what gives me the time and resources to work on making this show the best it can be. When you join, you become part of an amazing Discord community that includes live episode recordings and hangouts every month. You also get episode post scripts, add free episodes, free merch and more.

[Matt]

You'll also become part of our Questions After Nightfall episodes or even join us as a guest in the North Wing. So Please go to patreon.com prancingponypod to show your support and join the Fellowship of the Podcast.

[Alan Sisto]

And you can always help us out by giving us a rating and review on Apple Podcasts and a rating on Spotify. And please recommend us to your friends. Matt, can we go on with the text and see what's next?

[Matt]

Yes. No alliance of peoples was ever more faithfully kept on both sides than the alliance of Gondor and Rohan under the oath of Cirion and Eorl. Nor were any guardians of the wide grassy plains of Rohan more suited to their land than the Riders of the Mark. Nonetheless, there was a grave weakness in their situation as was most clearly shown in the days of the War of the Ring when it came near to causing the ruin of Rohan and of Gondor. This was due to many things. Above all the eyes of Gondor had ever been eastward whence all their perils came. The enmity of the wild dunlendings seemed of small account to the stewards. Another point was that the stewards retained under their own rule the Tower of Orthanc and the Ring of Isengard also known as Angrenost. The keys of Orthanc were taken to Minas Tirith. The tower was shut and the Ring of Isengard remained manned only by an hereditary Gondorian chieftain and his small people to whom were joined the old hereditary guards of Aglarond. The fortress there was repaired with the aid of masons of Gondor and then committed to the Rohirrim. From it, the guards of the fords were supplied for the most part. Their settled dwellings were about the feet of the White Mountains and in the glens and valleys of the south to the northern bounds of the Westfold. They went seldom and only at need regarding the eaves of Fangorn, the Entwood and the frowning walls of Isengard. With dread. They meddled little with the lord of Isengard and his Secret Folk whom they believed to be dealers in dark magic. And to Isengard, the emissaries from Minas Tirith came ever more seldom until they ceased. It seemed that, amidst their cares the stewards had forgotten the tower though they held the keys. Yet the western frontier and the line of the Isen was naturally commanded by Isengard and this had evidently been well understood by the kings of Gondor. The Isen flowed down from its sources along the eastern wall of the Ring and as it went on southwards it was still a young river that offered no great obstacle to invaders though its waters were still very swift and strangely cold. But the great gate of Angrenost was opened west of Isen and if the fortress were well manned enemies from the Westlands must be in great strength if they thought to pass on into Westfold. Moreover, Angrenost was less than half the distance of Aglarond from the fords to which a wide horse road ran from the gates for most of the way over level ground. The dread that haunted the great tower and fear of the glooms of Fangorn that lay behind might protect it for a while. But if it were unmanned and neglected as it was in the latter days of the stewards that protection would not long avail. So it proved.

[Alan Sisto]

So it proved, indeed. Now we begin with a reminder of something that we saw time and time again in our six week sidebar on Kyrian and Aorl and in the Lord of the Rings. The fact that the alliance between Gondor and Rohan was faithfully kept. And I love this little extra statement that we get that the Riders of the Mark were perfectly suited to be the protectors of this region. And once again, I just got to give a nod to my man Kyrion here who undoubtedly saw this. Not only was it like, oh, this land up here, they're a little bit too overcrowded. Our place is empty. It's more like they would be perfect in this spot. Like this is a place where they would thrive. And indeed they did.

[Matt]

But despite it being a faithful alliance and despite the writers being those perfect defenders of the land there was a flaw, as we see.

[Alan Sisto]

That's right. It was only 2 meters wide. It's a small thermal exhaust port right below the main port. Oh, wait, that's the wrong flaw.

[Matt]

That's the wrong flaw. Now, do we have to tell people that that's Star Wars.

[Alan Sisto]

I hope we don't have to tell that's the original Star Wars. Yeah.

[Matt]

Like, come on. Okay.

[Alan Sisto]

I mean, that's, that's, yeah. Many Bothans died to bring you this information.

[Matt]

Now, this flaw nearly became a breaking point during the War of the Ring when it nearly led to the destruction of Rohan which in turn would have resulted in the fall of Gondor.

[Alan Sisto]

100%. Yeah. Now, this grave weakness came from among multitude of circumstances. First, Gondor was understandably, to some extent primarily focused towards the east where the vast majority of their trouble was coming from. I mean, not just Mordor in the late Third Age but throughout as they faced Wainriders and Corsairs and Haradrim and Easterlings and the Balchoth. I mean, this is just, you know, a mess.

[Matt]

Yeah.

[Alan Sisto]

So as a result, they just really didn't take the Dunlendings into account. They were a tiny threat.

[Matt]

Yeah. One that Rohan was supposed to take care of pretty much. That's why they're there, you know?

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah, you're there to solve the. These smaller Problems that we don't need to deal with. Yeah, yeah.

[Matt]

Now, second, the governance and operation of Isengard the tower and the lands within the Ring of Isengard belong to the stewards who held the key to the tower. But that left the tower unmanned. You know, the. The door is locked and you're not on the inside and the key is.

[Alan Sisto]

A thousand miles away.

[Matt]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. And Isengard itself, held by a hereditary chieftain. Again, in part because their attention was elsewhere. And that Gondorian chieftain and his people were joined to the hereditary guards of Aglarond which is the Hornburg.

[Alan Sisto]

Right. Now, that fortress, located in the valley that we now know of as Helm's Deep was repaired by Gondor and then given to Rohan. It was called the Suthburg and then after Helm, the Hornburg. Helm's Deep. By the way, folks, that's the name of the valley, not the fortress. Extra pedantry points for you, if you remember that. I know we talk about the Helms Deep and you think about that. That gorgeous structure, that's the Hornberg. Helm's Deep is the valley. But, yeah, it used to be just called the Suzberg, the South fortress. So it was that fortress and settlement of Rohan that provided the guards for the fords of Isen.

[Matt]

Yeah, even Rohan didn't really settle near Isengard. We read that mostly they settled in the mountain vales to the south. And in fact, not only did they not settle in the northern part of the Westfold, they. They didn't even like going there. There was.

[Alan Sisto]

It wasn't even a vacation hotspot.

[Matt]

Right. Yeah. No, they. No interest. There was a dread of the eaves of Fangorn Forest. You know, naturally we see that much later in Eomer.

[Alan Sisto]

Like, that's a thing. Yeah, it is.

[Matt]

And even the walls of Isengard.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah. Kind of creepy, right? Yeah. Somewhat ironically. I love this. The text tells us the people of Rohan meddled little with the lord of Isengard and his secret folk whom they believed to be dealers in dark magic. This was long before Saruman. This was the hereditary chief and related to Gondor. I mean, obviously they were not magical in any way but a later resident would very much be.

[Matt]

Yeah. Yes. And going back to Gondor's attention being elsewhere we read that the stewards emissaries came less and less often and finally stopped coming altogether.

[Alan Sisto]

It's like the stewards had forgotten orthink existed. Like, have you checked between the couch cushions? I mean, it's. It's just right Here, like, surely there's.

[Matt]

A map that you glance at once in a while and be like, oh.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah, we have that tower over there with a palantir in it.

[Matt]

Like, aren't you going over the books with your accountant? And like, hey, we have this property, right? You know, up north.

[Alan Sisto]

We've got to pay taxes on it. There's probably some maintenance to be done. No, I mean, look, I get why they kept the tower in their own control but part of me wonders, what if, when Cirion had given Calenardhon to Rohan what if they said, Isengard is also yours?

[Matt]

Yeah.

[Alan Sisto]

And here are the keys to Orthanc and you need to maintain this place.

[Matt]

Yeah.

[Alan Sisto]

I mean, a lot of things change. Saruman. There's no reason for Saruman to come later, as we'll see.

[Matt]

No.

[Alan Sisto]

This is interesting.

[Matt]

Yeah, yeah.

[Alan Sisto]

Boy, that's another interesting speculation. We could really go down. Lots of things could go from there.

[Matt]

Lots of things. Yeah.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah.

[Matt]

Now still, the Isen was the natural boundary and it was commanded by Isengard which was in a really advantageous geographical position.

[Alan Sisto]

Yes, it was.

[Matt]

While the stewards of Gondor may have forgotten about this place by the time of Rohan the kings of Gondor back in the day fully understood the advantage of this place.

[Alan Sisto]

Oh, of course. I mean, because the river came down along the eastern wall of the Ring of Isengard. That is, Isengard is to the west of the Isen. So even though the river at that point was still easy to cross because it was relatively new and so it wasn't, you know, running at full speed, it wasn't a high speed river flooding with tons and tons of water it was still easy to cross. But any force trying to cross there would then have to deal with Isengard because the gate opened on the west.

[Matt]

Side of the river and it was a lot closer to the fords than the Hornberg. Less than half as far as what we saw with a flat road leading to the fords which means an army could travel from Isengard to the fords very quickly. And this, as we and Rohan discovered over our previous two episodes, we read.

[Alan Sisto]

All about that, much to their dismay. Yeah. Really, though being such an important and arguably even critical point of defense it would also be a target. And so even though fear of the tower and fear of Fangorn would be some protection it would have to remain manned, wouldn't it?

[Matt]

Yeah. Otherwise, you know, if it goes unmanned and neglected it would be ripe for a takeover, I would say. And so it proved. And as we're about to find out. Alan, why don't you take it away and. Yeah, just show us this sequence of horrible events.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah, will do. The line of the Gondorian chieftains of Angernost had failed and the command of the fortress passed into the hands of a family of the people. These, as has been said, were already long before of mixed blood. And they were now more friendly disposed to the Dunlendings than to the wild Northmen who had usurped the land. With Minas Tirith far away they no longer had any concern. After the death of King Aldor who had driven out the last of the Dunlendings and even raided their lands in Enedwaith by way of reprisal. The Dunlendings, unmarked by Rohan but with the connivance of Isengard began to filter into northern Westfold again making settlements in the mountain glens west and east of Isengard and even in the southern eaves of Fangorn. In the reign of Deor they became openly hostile raiding the herds and studs of the Rohirrim in Westfold. It was soon clear to the Rohirrim that these raiders had not crossed the Isen either by the fords or at any point far south of Isengard for the fords were guarded. Deor, therefore, led an expedition northwards and was met by a host of Dunlendings. These he overcame. But he was dismayed to find that Isengard was also hostile. Thinking that he had relieved Isengard of a Dunlendish siege he sent messengers to its gates with words of goodwill. But the gates were shut upon them and the only answer they got was by bowshot, as was later known. The Dunlendings, having been admitted as friends had seized the Ring of Isengard slaying the few survivors of its ancient guards who were not as were most willing to merge with the Dunlendish folk. Deor sent word at once to the steward in Minas Tirith at that time in the year 2710 Egilmoth. But he was unable to send help and the Dunlendings remained in occupation of Isengard until reduced by the great famine after the long winter of 2758, 2759 they were starved out and capitulated to Frealaf afterwards first king of the second line. But Deor had no power to storm or besiege Isengard and for many years the Rohirrim had to keep a strong force of riders in the north of Westfold. This was maintained until the great invasions of 2758. It can thus be readily understood that when Saruman offered to take command of Isengard and repair it and reorder it it as part of the defenses of the west he was welcomed both by King Frealaf and by Beren the steward. So when Sodomon took up his abode in Isengard and Beren gave to him the keys of Orthanc the Rohirrim returned to their policy of guarding the fords of Isen as the most vulnerable point in their western frontier. There can be little doubt that Saruman made his offer in good faith or at least with good will towards the defense of the west so long as he himself remained the chief person in that defense and the head of its council. He was wise and perceived clearly that Isengard with its position and its great strength natural and by craft was of utmost importance. The line of the Isen between the pincers of Isengard and the Hornburg was a bulwark against invasion from the east whether incited and guided by Sauron or otherwise either aiming at encircling Gondor or at invading Eriador. But in the end, he turned to evil and became an enemy. And yet the Rohirrim, though they had warnings of his growing malice towards them continued to put their main strength in the west at the fords until Saruman, in open war showed them that the fords were small protection without Isengard and still less against it.

[Matt]

So we go back a little to the reign of King Deor. He was the seventh of the first line the great, great grandson of Aldor the Old and the grandfather of Helm Hammerhand. In that time, a bit more than 300 years before the current time Rohan discovered that it wasn't enough just to keep watch on the fords.

[Alan Sisto]

That's right.

[Matt]

So while the chronicler here tells us what happened they also remind us that neither of the two realms knew what happened until well after the fact.

[Alan Sisto]

So what actually happened, of course was that line of Gondorian chieftains that we'd mentioned last section. You know, the ones Gondor just flat out forgot about. Well, that line failed and the fortress ended up falling to a family of the people that lived there. But that family, along with all the others really were of mixed blood with the Dunlendings. And not being in touch with Gondor, who forgot about him or Rohan? Well, we don't go up there because it's spooky. They became friendly with the Dunlendings and frankly, who can Blame them. They need to be friendly with somebody.

[Matt]

Right. The text even says they referred to the Rohirrim as the Wild Northmen who usurp the land.

[Alan Sisto]

That is an interesting statement. It's sort of buried there. I want to chat about it a little bit. That is clearly how the Dunlendings view the Rohirrim.

[Matt]

Yeah.

[Alan Sisto]

In a way. In a way, they're right, aren't they?

[Matt]

Kind of. Yeah. I mean.

[Alan Sisto]

I mean, I feel like this opens up a big can, and maybe it's something to talk about at another time. But this whole idea of, you know, whose land is it?

[Matt]

Right. Yeah.

[Alan Sisto]

I think of the tale of Tal Elmar in the. I think it's in the Peoples of Middle Earth.

[Matt]

Yeah.

[Alan Sisto]

Where we read a little bit of a story from the perspective of a native inhabitant of the land when the Numenoreans are expanding.

[Matt]

Yeah.

[Alan Sisto]

And there's that issue raised there, too. And here we get it again. The Dunlendings are like, well, you know, we used to live in these veils in the White Mountains. Then we kind of moved a little bit, and now the land, now it's all been replaced by these people from the North. Yeah. From their perspective, certainly, these are people who've usurped the land.

[Matt]

Yeah. They're definitely not without validity to these claims here.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah. It's interesting, though, that somebody descended from the Gondorians would agree with them and call the Rohirrim, you know, Wild North. The Wild Northman.

[Matt]

Yeah.

[Alan Sisto]

Dude, you're hanging out with wild people. I mean, these are the. These are the Dunlendings. The grumpy, get off my lawn people. Right. You okay? I guess. You got. Everybody's got to have friends.

[Matt]

Yeah.

[Alan Sisto]

It's an interesting point, you know.

[Matt]

It is. Yeah.

[Alan Sisto]

The usurpation of the land. It's. It's definitely a bigger topic than I think we talk about in this episode, but it's something to. To sort of chew through.

[Matt]

Yeah. I feel like you could. You could really dive into this and, you know, make this half an episode on its own as a topic.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah, I think so. And at some point, I'd like to do that. So after the death of Aldor, and that's the year 2645, so it's about 55 years before Dayor's reign, the Dunlendings begin settling in the northern part of the Westfold, and that's on both sides of Isengard and even in the southern edges of Feng.

[Matt]

And then after a while, so about 50 to 60 years, they gained enough confidence and presumably numbers to start raiding the Westfold, taking horses and cattle. And since Rohan was guarding the fords they quickly came to the conclusion that these Dunlendings must have come across the Isen near its source. Which is near Eisengard.

[Alan Sisto]

Exactly. I mean, they're not coming across here. We would have noticed that because we're guarding the fords and there's no place to cross south of this. So the only other place to cross is at Isengard. So the footnote does tell us though that the Dunlendings and this group of Gondorians slash Dunlending friends. They were pretty clever, though. They were attacking the forts on the west side of the eyes. And from time to time sort of to distract them from what was going on in the north.

[Matt]

Yeah. Knowing that something is going on day or puts together a force and heads north where he runs into an army of Dunlendings.

[Alan Sisto]

But they're Dunlending, so he defeats them. The text is so quick about that. I mean, it's just instant, you know, that. That these. He overcame that. That's it. Done. But of course he gets to Eisengard. Hey, y'all. We just saved you by wiping out those Dunlending jerks who were besieging you. Wait a minute. I'm sorry. Did I. Did I call you guys? I'm so sorry. Dudlendings. Nice guys. Done lendings. Yeah.

[Matt]

Turns out Isengard is under the control of the Dunlendings.

[Alan Sisto]

I know. Total shocker. Dior's like, wait a minute now.

[Matt]

This is this land that's been totally neglected. Got taken over by somebody. How about that shocker. We get another of these. We figured this out much, much later. Moments where the chronicler tells us that what happened was the Dunlendings had been allowed into Isengard as friends by that family who is in control of it after the line of Gondorian chieftains died out.

[Alan Sisto]

And once inside, they did what you would expect Dunlendings to do. They took over and killed anybody not willing to merge with the folk of Dunland. And we're told that most of them were willing to do that. I suppose it's either merge or die. So I guess you start looking for a spouse real fast.

[Matt]

Yeah. So Deor sends word to Gondor and the steward, Egilmoth is in charge at that point, which is in 2016.

[Alan Sisto]

The awkwardly named Eggle Moth. Yeah.

[Matt]

Yes. Yes. But Egglemoth can't do anything. You know, he's powerless to help yeah. And day or doesn't have the strength to attack the fortress or even lay siege to it. So he just posts a big force of riders in the northern part of the Westfold, presumably to contain the raiding parties.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah. And it stays that way for almost 50 years until 2758 when Wulf attacks Rohan. Helm does his Hammerhand thing and then Frelof starves out the Dunlendings and Isengard, who suffered after the long winter as much as everybody else.

[Matt]

We come back then to a moment we've discussed before. King Frelof of Rohan and Beren, steward of Gondor, welcoming Saruman and giving him the keys of Orthanc, presumably in exchange.

[Alan Sisto]

For not stabbing them in the back. But mostly in exchange for repairing Isengard and making it a part of the defense of the West.

[Matt]

Yeah, for not stabbing them in the back is that's what we call irony. Because that's exactly what he's going to do.

[Alan Sisto]

Exactly what he's going to do. And in the front. If he can get you.

[Matt]

Right. Yeah, if he could get there now, at this point, you know, Rohan repositioned their troops from the north of the west, march to the fords as they are now. The most vulnerable point.

[Alan Sisto]

Exactly. And this is a very interesting point in the text because we now get some insight into Saruman's thoughts. Or at least. Least what the Chronicler assumes were his thoughts. Right. That the offer was originally made in good faith, or at least with goodwill.

[Matt]

Yeah, but only insofar as he was given the lead in the defense and held the chairmanship of the Council. Everything is about how important Saruman can be.

[Alan Sisto]

Seriously, talk about self aggrandizement. I mean, this guy is just all about the power and the authority.

[Matt]

Yeah, yeah, but he is a pretty smart guy. We know. Or at least, you know, to a certain point. He's not the best commander as well. No, that's true, Devereaux.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah, very clear. Yeah.

[Matt]

But overall he's a pretty smart guy. And he looks at a map and knows how important Eisengard is, you know, and how important it will be. Its location and its unique strengths are very important.

[Alan Sisto]

Important they are. And we get a reminder briefly that some of its strength was natural. That would be things like its geographical location as well as its natural protection in the valley. But some of that strength was man made. Right. The fortress walls and the tower itself.

[Matt]

We're even reminded that this isn't just a defense against attack from the West, I. E. Dunland. It's a defense against Invasion by Sauron. He can't circle Gondor from the north. Nor could he invade Eriador without dealing with Isengard.

[Alan Sisto]

And I hadn't really thought about that. I mean, it's such an interesting location. You don't think of it as being a defense against Sauron, but. Yeah, I mean, if we're talking about a massive invading force, why wouldn't he try to come through Calenardhon, Right. Come through the Gap of Rohan and circle around the land to the west of the White Mountains and come through that bulk of Gondor to the south and sweep through Lebenin, you know, from that direction. Or, you know, alternatively just attacking Eriador, which has been attacked before. Eventually, though, studying Sauron's craft leads Saruman to sort of see himself as a mini Sauron. Right. He turns to evil and became an enemy, the text says.

[Matt]

And even though there were red flags, Rohan continued to focus their defense at the fords and not toward Isengard.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah, that was a mistake. And Saruman shows them that. He shows them that the. The fords are nothing without Isengard. Right. You have to have Isengard if defending the fords is going to help, because otherwise you can cross it. Isengard. But more importantly, the fords are nothing to Isengard. Yeah, absolutely useless, as we found out in the last two episodes, because you could send forces down both sides. Yeah.

[Matt]

Yeah.

[Alan Sisto]

Well, there can be little doubt that Barlaman made his offer in good faith or at least with goodwill towards the male of the west so long as he himself remained the chief person of that male and the head of its council. Matt, what does Parliament have for us tonight?

[Matt]

Well, I. I picked this one. This is from Dirk from Missouri. Okay. I picked this one because I actually just recently did a video on this topic. So I thought, oh, will it be.

[Alan Sisto]

Out by the time this episode.

[Matt]

It will, yeah. So it'll. It's already out now on my channel. But I. So now, having done that exercise, I'm very curious to hear what you think would happen in this hypothetical.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah, because I didn't get to. You didn't invite me to do part of that.

[Matt]

Right. Yeah. So.

[Alan Sisto]

Nor should you.

[Matt]

Yeah, so. So the question is, what if Gandalf didn't come back as Gandalf the White? So, like, Gandalf stays dead.

[Alan Sisto]

He's just gone, right?

[Matt]

Yeah, okay. He's gone. He's off. Off the board at this point.

[Alan Sisto]

And Illuvitar is like, yeah, thanks, man. That was nice. You're not going Back, Right.

[Matt]

Yeah.

[Alan Sisto]

Okay.

[Matt]

So Illuvitar just, you know, he stays on the sidelines, doesn't get involved. And we have no Gandalf the White.

[Alan Sisto]

Oh, wow. Let's see. I guess we'll start in chronological order because.

[Matt]

Yeah.

[Alan Sisto]

What. What does he do? He comes back, he is carried by the eagle to Lorien where he gets clothing because he's naked as well as a new staff. Apparently follows the company at that point. I'm trying to think of his first interactions with the company. His first physical interactions with the company. When he encounters Aragorn, Gimli and Legolas and Fangirl.

[Matt]

Yeah, yeah.

[Alan Sisto]

And that's a pretty big moment. But my mind goes back to a moment before that when Frodo's a top m on him.

[Matt]

Yeah. Yep.

[Alan Sisto]

And Boromir's tried to take the ring and he runs and he runs up to the top and he puts the ring on and we get that really cool description of how he can see, like, armies in mo. In motion. He could see all these things.

[Matt]

And then he hears fool take off the ring.

[Alan Sisto]

But then he hears. Yeah, exactly. He hears Sauron first and then he hears Gandalf telling him to take it off.

[Matt]

Yeah.

[Alan Sisto]

And it was very, very close call. If he doesn't take off that ring. And I don't think he does without hearing Gandalf's voice.

[Matt]

I don't think he does.

[Alan Sisto]

I think it's all over but the crying right then and there.

[Matt]

So. So this is how I. I purposely structured my video to reveal that last.

[Alan Sisto]

Because of course you did.

[Matt]

Yeah. Because I was like, here's how all these events play out, by the way. None of them matter because Frodo screwed. You know.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah. Frodo messed it all up.

[Matt]

So I immediately, you know, when I got to that part of the reveal, I think Sauron immediately dispatches ring race.

[Alan Sisto]

Oh, yeah. All the ride. All the. The winged fell beasts. Yeah.

[Matt]

And Amon hen is less than half the distance that Isengard is. And so I went back and did all the math and everything. Yeah. Because Gandalf tells us that it would take take a few hours for a Nazgul to fly from Baradur to Eisengard.

[Alan Sisto]

Right. To. To that little hill that we're on when Pippin takes a look in the any. Yeah, yeah.

[Matt]

So we're. So we're talking like an hour and a half. And the Nazgul are there.

[Alan Sisto]

Dol Baran, I think, is the name of that little hill.

[Matt]

Yeah, yeah. Dolbaran. Yeah. And so. So we're talking like an hour and a half and there's Nazgul at Amon Hen searching like that's a.

[Alan Sisto]

He's not gonna get very far.

[Matt]

He's not getting very far. And like. Like, keep in mind that what happens immediately after this, they get lost in Em and Moel. Like they're just. Yeah, they're just in Em and Moel kind of Sol. Navigationally speaking, they are.

[Alan Sisto]

I mean, if that's. If he even makes it across the well. Yeah, because I think you're right. Frodo would still do.

[Matt]

I think he'd get across the river and everything.

[Alan Sisto]

He gets across the river thinking, I've got to take the Ring to Mordor.

[Matt]

Yeah.

[Alan Sisto]

Presumably still finds him.

[Matt]

Because everything else is assuming he manages to have the willpower to eventually take the Ring off and not be like.

[Alan Sisto]

Locked in place and to leave Amon Hen and not stand there frozen.

[Matt]

Right.

[Alan Sisto]

Which is very, very real risk. Yeah, I think you're right. I think at that point it is all over. But let's. Let's for the moment set that aside and think about the other moments. So of course this first interaction doesn't happen. So Aragorn, Legolas and Gimli are continuing to look for the hive.

[Matt]

Yeah. They're still looking. Yep.

[Alan Sisto]

Do they keep looking? How long do they look before they get back to. Before they go back to Megiselt? Because remember, they were under the request of Eomer to take their horses back to Megiselled. Okay. Now without Gandalf with them and they go back to Megiceld, it's just the three of them. There's nobody to heal Theoden.

[Matt]

Yeah.

[Alan Sisto]

Oh, they are so screwed.

[Matt]

Yeah, no, they're totally.

[Alan Sisto]

They are so screwed. They don't get their swords back. Aragorn doesn't get Andoril back.

[Matt]

I guess in this case, in your. Your trajectory here, because mine's a bit different. But yeah, I. That's assuming that Theoden doesn't let. Allow them to leave. Which I don't think he would go as far as to like imprison.

[Alan Sisto]

Imprison them.

[Matt]

I don't think so.

[Alan Sisto]

I don't know.

[Matt]

For just borrowing horses. I don't know.

[Alan Sisto]

They're not even supposed to be free of the mark, right at this point. Unless the king gives him permission.

[Matt]

They were given that permission from Eomer even though Eomer's. You know, I don't know if we're.

[Alan Sisto]

Not supposed to let people run free until the king is like. Like, you can't be here. Unless the king gives his approval.

[Matt]

Right.

[Alan Sisto]

So I don't know. And because the king is under the influence of Grima.

[Matt]

Yeah.

[Alan Sisto]

It's almost like we set Theoden aside completely because it's more like, does Grima let them go?

[Matt]

Yeah, yeah.

[Alan Sisto]

Let's assume Grima lets him go because he wants them out of here. Right. He doesn't want to risk that Aragorn might rescue Theoden.

[Matt]

Yeah, right.

[Alan Sisto]

He doesn't want to risk that. So he says, get out. And they have to leave. So now they're.

[Matt]

Now you're assuming too, like. Because the timing. The one thing that I ran into as I was crafting this is. Is the timing is very tight on these.

[Alan Sisto]

Oh, it's very tight. You're talking about. Oh, do they even get to Etteras in time?

[Matt]

Yeah. See, that's what I'm thinking is like, because if they search even for an extra day.

[Alan Sisto]

Day. Yeah.

[Matt]

They don't make a mess thing. Yeah. Next thing, you know, like, the host.

[Alan Sisto]

Of Simon's army is.

[Matt]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. And so. So here's my. And, you know, obviously, like, if people really want to, like, see my video on it, I go into, like, all the crazy detail.

[Alan Sisto]

Oh, yeah, we'll put a link to it in the show notes. Yeah.

[Matt]

But I actually have Saruman's army marching and like, totally wiping out whatever small resistance there is at. At Helm's Deep.

[Alan Sisto]

I don't even know that they bother attacking Helms Deep. I think they leave a detachment to. To. To neutralize Helms Deep. Right? They. Yeah, because that's a defensive force, not an offensive force. And the whole point of the Deep of. Of the the fortress there is to have a force there that can then disrupt supply lines, attack from the flank. So if instead you take a detachment of troops, let's say a couple thousand Udra kai, you got 10,000. You put 2,000 there along.

[Matt]

And then you can keep. Keep rolling.

[Alan Sisto]

You can keep the people in Helm's Deep. In Helm's Deep, they're not going to be able to break the supply lines or attack your flank. You then attack Etterus with the remaining 8,000 troops.

[Matt]

Yeah.

[Alan Sisto]

And Etterus is gone.

[Matt]

Yes. Yeah.

[Alan Sisto]

Oh, my goodness, you're right. Aragorn, Legolas and Gimli get there and they see the smoke rising and they're like, let's just go.

[Matt]

Yeah, yeah.

[Alan Sisto]

There is no more Etterus to return these.

[Matt]

Right.

[Alan Sisto]

So they head straight to the pollen or.

[Matt]

Well, they. They either do that or. Because I think maybe Legolas, Aragorn Gimli do track Merry and Pippin all the way to Isengard and come. But they come like it's still a field of victory for the Ents.

[Alan Sisto]

So that's true. Because Pippin and Mary.

[Matt]

So they're there. And. And who comes looking for Aragorn in those lands? It's the Gray Company. So they still meet the Gray Company, do they though?

[Alan Sisto]

I mean, it was almost a random find that they encountered the Gray.

[Matt]

Well, that's true.

[Alan Sisto]

Does the Gray Company, which is, I don't know, 30amazing riders. But if they encounter those 10,000 uruk hai, they're toast.

[Matt]

Yeah. Oh, yeah. For sure. Yeah.

[Alan Sisto]

So do they find.

[Matt]

But I think the timing works out where the army stays ahead of them.

[Alan Sisto]

I think you're right. Okay.

[Matt]

And so then it becomes like. Like you've got. You've got all these orcs. So the, The. The thing I wrestled with was like. Is Wormtongue. So. Because we see, like, Theoden isn't without following propriety. He has some. Yeah, it's. It's not as bad as like in the movies where it's a total exorcism possession. Possession thing. So I think word gets there that there's an army marching on Etrus and I think he has enough agency to retreat to Dunhair.

[Alan Sisto]

That makes sense. That makes sense.

[Matt]

I think. I think it's. You know, you can debate it either way.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah, yeah. Like, okay, let's assume he does. Dunharrow would be a very difficult place to sack.

[Matt]

Yeah, yeah.

[Alan Sisto]

I mean, remember, the path up there is that winding, narrow switchback road.

[Matt]

It definitely makes the more interesting story than like, the slaughter of Etterus, you know.

[Alan Sisto]

That's true. The slaughter of Etterus is over, like two or three days if it's the Siege of Harrowdale or the siege of Dunharrow. Wow. Because whatever troops he has up top are safe for a very long time because the Orcs can only come up in essentially single file, maybe two or three abreast, but very, very small. And up and up and up that switchback road. They would be vulnerable to archers. There's no other way up there. Yeah, but then what happens if Aragorn, Legolas and Gimli, after encountering the Gray Riders, say, okay, let's go through the Paths of the Dead. Because they get the message from Arwen. Right? Right. Take the. Take this. Or they get the message from Elrod, Take this road. And he goes, yeah, okay, I know how to get there. Let's go. And they go and they. They Come into the back of the army.

[Matt]

Yeah.

[Alan Sisto]

10,000. And they're like. They're busy here.

[Matt]

They're busy here.

[Alan Sisto]

They're a bit busy.

[Matt]

It's occupied. So in that case, I think your.

[Alan Sisto]

Call is very important to us.

[Matt]

Yeah.

[Alan Sisto]

He will be issued into the past of the dead. Of the order which you received, you were currently number 9,000, 174.

[Matt]

Now, we're. We're the only hope that they have at that point, I think, is if they actually encounter Irkenbrand along the way.

[Alan Sisto]

Ooh, yes. And maybe can break the siege and.

[Matt]

Join with Urkenbrand and can break the siege. And that's where I went with it.

[Alan Sisto]

Maybe. I don't know if that's enough force because I think Irkenbrand only has like a thousand on foot. Foot, Right. I think it's just a thousand, and that's against a force of 10,000.

[Matt]

They are mounted, though, aren't they? Aren't they?

[Alan Sisto]

No, I think they're infantry. They're in. They're mounted in films, remember? Oh, yeah, yeah. That's kind of one of the big distinctions is it's not Amer on horseback. It's. It's Erken Brand on. On with foot soldiers. But even if they're mounted, well, you could scatter the. You could maybe scatter them. But a thousand to ten, an outnumbered.

[Matt]

Ten to one, it's a bit more open land, I think. You know, the Valley of Harrowdale, maybe.

[Alan Sisto]

No, that's the thing. I think it's tight quarters compared to. I mean, I think infantry is actually going to be better there than cavalry. But I don't think the numbers are in their favor. But maybe. Maybe they have that chance.

[Matt]

I don't know.

[Alan Sisto]

Do you wonder, does Aragorn, at that point just say, forget the Paths of the Dead, let's go.

[Matt]

Let's just go to Gondor.

[Alan Sisto]

Ride. They'll ride along the. The northern edge of the White Mountains, right through an Orion. Oh, boy. Well, of course, let's be honest. It doesn't matter. They're going to get to Gondor. The siege of Gondor is underway. There's no Rohirrim to come and save the day. At the Battle of the Pollenor, Gondor falls. Minasirith falls. Aragorn's the king of nothing.

[Matt]

Yeah. Of nothing. Yeah.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah. And the Witch King, when he shows up after Grahn knocks the gates down, he just comes in and leads the party. There's nobody to stop him. Oh, man.

[Matt]

Like I said earlier in the episode, basically you change anything and nothing, everything changes.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah, because even the army of the dead is still cursed and not able to rest because Aragorn hasn't been able to come. Unless we go with your version where they break the siege and still get in there. I don't think they do. I don't think a thousand infantry are going to take out 10,000 Uruk high.

[Matt]

No. Your only hope is that, like, they're. They're dumb enough to just use the Orcs as cannon fodder.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah, Maybe they just keep sending the Orcs up and so by the time Irkin Brand shows up, they're only down.

[Matt]

They're more than. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Alan Sisto]

Maybe. Or maybe they've even broken up the force. Like, there's no way we can get 10,000 orcs up this road. So let's just ravage the rest of Rohan. So Maybe it's only 2 or 3,000 at that point. And Erkenbrand could save the day.

[Matt]

They're just. Yeah, so they've gone on to, like, destroy village.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah, and the rest of Rohan.

[Matt]

You know, I mean, if there's anything that we've seen, it's that Saruman is not a master strategist and neither is his captain in charge of the army.

[Alan Sisto]

No, that's true. But remember, at this point. Let's see. So let's think about the Saruman Sauron relationship. Remember that? Sauron. There was going to come a point where Saruman's play for the Ring was going to eventually make him the foe of Sauron.

[Matt]

Oh, yeah.

[Alan Sisto]

At one point he's the ally. He's trying to pretend to be an ally but once he gets the Ring, he's going to be openly opposed.

[Matt]

Yeah.

[Alan Sisto]

He doesn't get the Ring from Merry and Pippin, but Sauron knows that he tried. Because remember that whole deal with the three different factions of Orcs? So now Sauron knows that Saruman is his enemy.

[Matt]

Yeah.

[Alan Sisto]

Does Saruman try to prove his loyalty? Quote, unquote. Because he doesn't know that. Sauron knows this by sending his Orc army after they pillage Etteras and drive the king up the UP to Herod.

[Matt]

Send him on down to Gondor?

[Alan Sisto]

Does he leave, like, the largest. Does he leave, like, enough to keep them there? Like a couple thousand troops at the base of the hill so they can't come down any more than they could go up and then send the rest of his troops on to Minas Tirith. I think he might.

[Matt]

Maybe.

[Alan Sisto]

I think he might. Boy, that just accelerates the end of everything.

[Matt]

Yeah, it really does.

[Alan Sisto]

Like, like you said, it doesn't matter because Frodo's hosed. Yeah.

[Matt]

The beauty of it, it's like, you know, I totally botched the Irkin brand being cavalry versus infantry at the end.

[Alan Sisto]

Of the day and the video's already out.

[Matt]

Yeah, but the. But at the end of the day, like, at the end, it's. It's all the same result because Sauron has the Rig.

[Alan Sisto]

Like, Sauron gets the Ring and it just doesn't matter.

[Matt]

There's no way that, like, after pinpointing his exact location and having winged Nazgul at his disposal, you know, like, like the, the latest that a. That a Nazgul is getting there is in two hours.

[Alan Sisto]

And there's going to be several of them this time.

[Matt]

Yes.

[Alan Sisto]

Right. He'll send them all so they'll be able to triangulate his location. And yeah, he's tough.

[Matt]

And like, you know, he's also sending out armies from the Black Gate at that point. You know, like, and if they're in.

[Alan Sisto]

The M Wheel, it's not very far away. They're going to be there today.

[Matt]

Yeah. And like. And like I said, Frodo and Sam are, like, not good at navigating through these lands. So it's like they're not going to be making a speedy escape from Amon Hen through the Emin Muil.

[Alan Sisto]

The Emin Mueel is the end of their journey. Yeah, and it's the end of Middle Earth. Then though, does Sauron even bother attacking Minas Tirith?

[Matt]

I think he does. But he doesn't. I don't.

[Alan Sisto]

Does Sauron just sit back with his ring?

[Matt]

I don't think he needs to hurry, is the thing. And like, that's true, you know, that's another big thing. Like with, you know, with Sauron, we see time and again when he's defeated. It's because he's made to act earlier than he's prepared to.

[Alan Sisto]

That's right, because think about it. He attacks early because he has seen Aragorn in the Palantir.

[Matt]

Exactly. And Pippin in the palantir.

[Alan Sisto]

But he's not going to see. Oh, yeah. He will still see them in the palantir because the Ents still defeat Isengard.

[Matt]

Yeah, but Wormtongue's not there to throw it out the window.

[Alan Sisto]

You're right. So there's no Palantir.

[Matt]

Yeah, there's no Polyuntant here.

[Alan Sisto]

There's no Palantir. Aragorn doesn't see, so Sauron doesn't see, he's not led to attack early.

[Matt]

So he just like, at that point he's got the ring, he is free.

[Alan Sisto]

He takes his time, builds that army until it's.

[Matt]

Build that army.

[Alan Sisto]

Stoppable force.

[Matt]

Yeah, yeah. And just, and even then, like, even if Aragorn somehow eventually gets to the Stone of Attic and it's like it's not going to be, it's not going to be enough.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah, no, the, the, the, just the vast numbers that Sauron is going to send over.

[Matt]

And I mean, we know like, obviously that's another big difference from the, the films and the books is like the army of the Dead doesn't actually, like.

[Alan Sisto]

No, they don't get to slaughter.

[Matt]

Like, they, well, they, it's like fear. Their, their whole thing is fear.

[Alan Sisto]

And I still there, there's something to be said about that. I, I, we talked about that. I think I read those chapter, I did that chapter, I think, with, with James Tauber when we did it in season six. And then I think Don and I talked about it as well. I remember having conversations with Don Marshall on this, on the show. We were talking about whether they had the army that had any physical power. Yeah, I, I still think that they did. I don't know that they necessarily needed to use that power, but you remember the son of Brego who went into that place. We read in one of the extra writings, one of the drafts or one of that, his legs were broken. So I, I felt like, to me that was evidence that these spirits, these ghosts, have the ability to interact with the physical world. So the only thing is, like you said, fear is enough, that they don't even have to interact with the physical world. But of course, they don't go to Minas Tirith either. Aragorn basically uses them to clear out Pelargir so he can take the Black Fleet and go up the river. They're dismissed, then they never make it to the capital.

[Matt]

Oh, yeah. Well, and here's the question too, is like, we know the power that obviously the Witch King with the Barrow Whites and then Sauron with, you know, things like werewolves and stuff. Like there's power that he has over spirits. Like, yes, is him. You know, is Sauron with the ring enough to just whisk away those, the.

[Alan Sisto]

Army of the Dead if he's present? I mean, if they were to use the army of the Dead to try to, let's say, siege Baron Adur? Yes. I don't think they have any power over Sauron. Yeah, but I don't Think he's going to be able to stop them if he's in Badadur and they're in Pilar gear?

[Matt]

Oh, yeah. No. Or even in my thought was like, if they eventually, if they do come to Minas Tirith.

[Alan Sisto]

If they come to Minas Tirith and the Witch King is there, that might be interesting, even that, because the Witch King has power. He's the one who basically woke up all the spirits in the Barrows.

[Matt]

The Barrow. It's.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah, yeah. So I. And he's the one who sent the spirits there in the first place from Rudauer and Angmar. So I think even the Witch King could be.

[Matt]

Even the Witch King could be a problem. Oh, that's interesting. That's the one that I have.

[Alan Sisto]

I love these speculations. These are so much fun. Wow. I think we talked about that one for, like, 15 minutes.

[Matt]

Yeah, that was a lot.

[Alan Sisto]

A lot of fun. That's a good one, though. Thank goodness that Gandalf did come back and that he came back enhanced as Gandalf 2.0.

[Matt]

Good call, Aru.

[Alan Sisto]

Very good call. And one of my favorite little nuggets from the letters is the talk about Gandalf's resurrection and his return and all of that. So I know we've talked about that on the show a number of times. Don't need to rehash that. But for now, folks, that wraps it up for another episode of the Prancing Pony podcast. Please be sure to come back next week when we're joined by friend of the show, Dr. Brett Devereaux, who's going to bring his historical expertise to bear on all the military matters that Matt and I have discussed over the last 11 episodes of the PPP. That's right. From the Northman Slave Revolt to the Second Battle of the Fords of Eisen. And in fact, patrons, you're going to get some exclusive content from our conversation with Brett in the Mega Postscript for these last three episodes today.

[Matt]

And yeah, that's an awesome one. You guys will not want to miss our conversation.

[Alan Sisto]

We talked with him for what, like, three hours? It was fantastic.

[Matt]

Long time. Yeah.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah.

[Matt]

As always, Alan and I want to thank the members of Team PPP editor Jordan Rannells, Barliman, Becca Davis, social media manager Casey Hilsey event and Patreon community coordinator Katie McKenna, graphic artist Megan Collins, and website guru Phil Dean.

[Alan Sisto]

And please take a minute to check out theprancingponypodcast.com. it's where you're gonna find show notes, outtakes, Prancing Pony ponderings and our online storefront where you can get PPP merch featuring all the great episode artwork that Megan's been doing for the PPP since the start of season.

[Matt]

You'll also want to visit our library page. The Prancing Pony Podcast is, after all, a podcast about the books. So if you're interested in a book we've mentioned on the show, you'll find a link for it in our library. We do get a small amount of compensation when you make your purchase, and we thank you for that.

[Alan Sisto]

And we also want to thank our patrons at the Kir Dan's contribution tier. I'll start with Demay in Alaska, Chad in Texas, Lance in New Jersey, Paul in Colorado, Joseph in Maryland, Michigan Kathy from North Carolina, Carlos in California, Brian in the uk, Jerry from Washington, Joe in Washington, Irwin from the Netherlands, Ben in Minnesota, Anthony in Texas, Zaksu in Illinois, Sarah in New Jersey, Joshua in Massachusetts, Lucy in Texas, Keith in Alabama, and Erica in Texas.

[Matt]

There's also Carson in Oklahoma, Vivian in California, James in Massachusetts, Ann in Kentucky, Sean in New Jersey, Mason in California, Maureen from Massachusetts, Olivia in London, Robert in Arizona, Nick in Wisconsin, Lewis in South Carolina, Thomas in Germany, Craig in California, Bailey in Texas, Kevin in Massachusetts, Julie in Washington, Bruce in California, Joe in Maryland, Nathan in Arizona, and Kevin in Pennsylvania. Thank you all so very much for your support indeed.

[Alan Sisto]

Thank you.

[Matt]

Make sure you don't miss any episodes of the Prancing Pony Podcast. Subscribe now through Spotify, Apple Podcasts, Amazon Music, or your favorite podcast app.

[Alan Sisto]

And one last thing. As always, don't forget to send your thoughts, comments, and most of all, how you'd organize the Rohirrick military command structure to barliman@the prancingponypodcast.com and if you want.

[Matt]

Your voice literally heard, well, just send us audio of your question. Visit podcast pod inbox.com prancingponypod and record your question for us. Please be sure to still email the question to Barlaman, though, even though Barlaman's.

[Alan Sisto]

Been a lot more reliable lately, there's still a lot of mail to sort through. We'll try to get to you just as soon as we're able. As always, though, this has been far too short a time to spend among such excellent and admirable listeners.

[Matt]

But until next time, this is the end. We are going. We are leaving now. Goodbye.