365 – QAN 30

Summary

Podcast Summary: The Prancing Pony Podcast – Episode 365: QAN 30

Release Date: March 30, 2025

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Introduction to Questions After Nightfall

In Episode 365 of The Prancing Pony Podcast, titled "QAN 30," hosts Alan Sisto and Sara (The Shield Maiden of Rohan) transition from their regular deep dives into Tolkien’s appendices to a special live Q&A session. This quarterly segment invites patrons to pose their most intriguing questions about Middle-earth, fostering an engaging and interactive environment for Tolkien enthusiasts.

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Segment 1: Legolas, Physics, and Myth in Middle-earth

Question by Demay (05:16):
*Olivia from Rome inquires about "Allen's physics" and Legolas's ability to see past the curvature of the Earth, questioning whether mathematical principles can be set aside in favor of mythic elements, given the elven heritage tied to a flat land.

Discussion Highlights:

• Sara (00:32) humorously remarks, "You don't wake up dreaming of McDonald's fries," setting a lighthearted tone.

• Alan (03:17) addresses the balance between suspension of disbelief and secondary belief, emphasizing that Tolkien’s world operates on its own set of rules distinct from our reality. He notes, "I find that imagining Legolas to be able to see because light is still light around the curvature of the earth... would require the suspension of disbelief rather than a secondary belief." (06:57)

• Sara (07:20) counters by highlighting the mythic quality of Tolkien’s work, asserting, "the idea of an elf can see past the curvature of the Earth is perfectly fine." She elaborates on the ancient origins of elves and their unique abilities, aligning with the mythic over the scientific.

• Erwin (18:14) adds depth by discussing the inherent differences between Elves, Men, and Dwarves, suggesting that Dwarves' deep-rooted connection to the earth makes incorporeal entities like spirits more unsettling for them. (18:42)

• Alan (22:29) ties the discussion back to broader themes of ancient craftsmanship and lost knowledge, reminiscing about "the old work of giants" and its mythic significance in Tolkien’s legendarium. (24:09)

Notable Quote:

“If Tolkien had written that they are able to see this way because of X, Y or Z, then I would see this successful subcreation and I would then be able to remain within that, that secondary belief or that secondary world.” – Alan Sisto (06:57)

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Segment 2: Gimli's Fear in the Paths of the Dead

Question by Olivia (15:07):
*Olivia poses a question about Gimli’s apparent terror when traversing the Paths of the Dead, contrasting it with the composure of the Men and Legolas within the same setting.

Discussion Highlights:

• Alan (15:10) explores the narrative perspective, suggesting that Gimli's fear is amplified because the story is viewed through his eyes, a character with less knowledge about the supernatural elements compared to Aragorn or Legolas. He states, "Gimli's response... absolute terror." (15:42)

• Erwin (18:14) delves into the differing innate natures of Elves, Men, and Dwarves. He posits that Elves, as "children of Iluvatar," have a comfort with spirits that Dwarves, with their seclusive and earth-bound nature, do not. (18:42)

• Sara (20:36) synthesizes the ideas, emphasizing the Dwarves' physicality and grounded existence, which makes encountering incorporeal entities more unnerving. (20:49)

• Alan (21:14) acknowledges the complexities of subcreation in Tolkien’s world, reinforcing the distinction between the secondary world’s rules and our own, allowing for characters like Gimli to exhibit unique fears rooted in their inherent nature.

Notable Quote:

“If, if Tolkien had written that they are able to see this way because of X, Y or Z, then I would see this successful subcreation and I would then be able to remain within that, that secondary belief or that secondary world.” – Alan Sisto (06:57)

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Segment 3: Turin’s Favor Among the Wise of Doriath

Question by Nakat (26:00):
*Nakat inquires why Turin, despite being favored by wise figures like Melian, Beleg, and Mablung, seemed to receive disproportionate favor, questioning the underlying reasons for such admiration.

Discussion Highlights:

• Alan (26:01) discusses Turin's fostering under Thingol in Doriath, highlighting the deep respect Elves held for Terran heroes like Hurin, Turin’s father. He emphasizes the narrative beauty of Thingol's acceptance and support for Turin, making him a tragic yet honored figure. (29:16)

• Sara (29:36) reinforces that Thingol's favor towards Turin stems from the legacy of Hurin and the respect associated with him, leading to genuine sympathy and honor bestowed upon Turin despite his flaws. (30:05)

• *Erwin (18:14) adds that Dwarves, rooted in the earth, might find struggling with incorporeal entities like ghosts more challenging, aligning with Turin's unique position among different races.

• Alan (33:04) reflects on Tolkien’s portrayal of Turin as a respected yet flawed hero, underscoring the complexity of his character and the profound impact of Thingol’s mentorship.

Notable Quote:

“He was deeply loved. This wasn't a guy who had to make these choices.” – Sara (34:35)

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Segment 4: Aragorn's Leadership and the Fellowship's Composition

Question by Olivia (87:15):
Olivia asks why Elrond did not lead the Fellowship to Mount Doom, given his extensive knowledge and power, especially considering Gandalf’s role and the potential risks involved.

Discussion Highlights:

• Alan (88:01) ponders the practical and strategic reasons behind Elrond's decision, suggesting that his responsibilities towards Rivendell and the protective role of his Ring, Vilya, necessitated his absence from the quest. He muses, "This is a mission for captains, not generals." (89:01)

• Sara (88:10) concurs, noting that Elrond's leadership is more suited to strategic oversight rather than leading a perilous mission such as destroying the Ring. She adds that involving Galadriel would compromise Lothlorien's protection, highlighting the delicate balance of power and protection within the Elven realms. (89:58)

• Alan (90:03) further elaborates on the risks of involving other powerful figures, emphasizing the importance of maintaining the security of key Elven strongholds while ensuring the Fellowship has a balanced and manageable leadership structure.

Notable Quote:

“This is a mission for captains, not generals.” – Alan Sisto (89:01)

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Segment 5: Favorite Tolkien Words and Linguistic Exploration

Question by Demay (74:03):
Demay shares a tip for new readers to keep a dictionary handy and inquires about the hosts’ favorite words introduced by Tolkien.

Discussion Highlights:

• Alan (74:25) and Sara (74:34) passionately discuss their favorite Tolkien-coined words, such as "Confusticated," "Gleed," "Eucatastrophe," and "Wereguild," highlighting the linguistic richness and creativity of Tolkien's work. (75:05)

• Sara (77:22) expresses her admiration for "Ainulindale," emphasizing its musicality and deep-rooted meaning within the context of Middle-earth, connecting to the creation songs and the broader mythos.

• Alan (82:27) and Sara (82:51) continue to explore the depth of Tolkien’s language, discussing terms like "Polenar" and "Eriador," and reflecting on how these words enhance the immersive experience of reading Tolkien.

Notable Quote:

“The ring must be delivered into the fires of Mount Doom according to the Council of Elrond. That was their great conclusion. Now, Elrond was the only person who'd been there before, the only one who knew the way. So why didn't he lead the Fellowship?” – Olivia (87:15)

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Segment 6: Tribute Books and Scholarly Works on Tolkien

Question by Erwin (79:07):
Erwin seeks recommendations for favorite tribute books on Tolkien, suitable for academic papers or deep dives into the legendarium.

Discussion Highlights:

• Sara (80:34) and Alan (81:59) share their top picks, including works by Wayne Hammond and Christina Sculls, Robert Foster's Complete Guide to Middle-earth, John Rateliff's History of the Hobbit, and Tom Hillman's Pity Power and Tolkien's Ring. They emphasize the diversity and depth of available scholarship, encouraging listeners to explore various perspectives and analyses.

• Alan (83:10) reflects on the accessibility and insightful observations found in Tom Hillman’s work, highlighting its value for understanding complex characters like Gollum and overarching themes within Tolkien’s narratives.

Notable Quote:

“There are so many wonderful archaic words or even words that he's using an archaic meaning for.” – Alan Sisto (81:59)

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Conclusion and Closing Remarks

As the episode wraps up, Alan and Sara thank their patron community, encourage listeners to engage with their expansive array of resources at prancingponypodcast.com, and invite new members to join the Fellowship through Patreon. They also tease upcoming discussions, including an exploration of Aragorn and Arwen from the appendices, ensuring listeners have ample reason to return for future episodes.

Final Notable Quote:

“This has been far too short a time to spend among such excellent and admirable listeners.” – Alan Sisto (96:36)

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Join the Fellowship

Support the Prancing Pony Podcast by becoming a patron at patreon.com/prancingponypod. Enjoy exclusive benefits like ad-free episodes, merchandise, and the opportunity to participate in live Q&A sessions. Subscribe through your favorite podcast app to never miss an episode!

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Disclaimer: All quotes and timestamps are approximations based on the provided transcript and are intended to reflect the essence of the discussions.

Transcript

[Alan Sisto]

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[Sara]

You don't wake up dreaming of McDonald's fries.

[Alan Sisto]

You wake up dreaming of McDonald's hash browns.

[Demay]

McDonald's breakfast comes first.

[Alan Sisto]

Good evening, little masters, and welcome to episode 36065 of the Prancing Pony Podcast, where, man, after I don't know how many episodes, a dozen or so, we're finally leaving Rohan behind. But for now, it's actually time to take a break from our study of the appendices and do a little bit of live Q and A. Folks, pull.

[Sara]

Up a bench in the common room and join us. I'm Sara, the Shield Maiden of Rohan, and I'm here with the man of the West, Alan Sisto.

[Alan Sisto]

Thank you, Sara. Folks, join us as we welcome a few of our patrons to join us for our 30th quarterly questions after Nightfall.

[Sara]

I mean, you know, Alan, I just, I have to say, just let me say this. You look remarkably good considering how long this has been going on.

[Alan Sisto]

Wow. Damning with faint praise, as they say. Thank you, Sarah.

[Sara]

Oh, you're so welcome. Anyway, no matter how you got here, you're all welcome here in the common room. Here at the Prancing Pony Podcast, we are reading and talking our way through Middle Earth with plenty of speculation and some really bad jokes along the way.

[Alan Sisto]

Plenty. We do love our deep dives into the lore though, and we also really enjoy discussing our favorite themes and just a lot of things. But once a quarter, we take a break from our read through and we welcome a few of our patrons to join us here in the common room and bring along some of their very best questions. Or at least hopefully their best questions.

[Sara]

Now, terrifyingly, we have absolutely no idea what they're going to ask us. So have we done so many times before? We're simply going to do the best job we can in answering their questions with whatever we have on our shelves and our all too limited brains.

[Alan Sisto]

Mm. Now, as with our previous Questions after nightfall episodes, all 29 of them before, aside from any possible edits for things like nervous coughs or time spent flipping through pages while we look for an answer, we will be presenting this as it was recorded live, so everything that you hear in this show will have been recorded during this session.

[Sara]

So if you'd like to be on one of these with us sometime, join the Fellowship of the [e-mail] prancingponypod questions after nightfall Episodes are recorded once a quarter and patrons of the Elrond's Honorarium tier and higher are invited to join.

[Alan Sisto]

It's just one of the ways that we show our appreciation to those who support the show, giving them the opportunity to join us, make us laugh, make us think, make us look stuff up and make us look stupid and occasionally embarrass us in the best possible way. Now let's go ahead and get started. Sara, who is up first this time?

[Sara]

It's the delightful Demay.

[Alan Sisto]

Oh, Demay. Welcome, welcome back. I should say hello, it's good to.

[Olivia]

Be here from rainy Rome. I am going to go to the Wayback Machine, the Way Way Way Back Machine, episode two. And I was listening to that one again. And you were. The title of the episode is the Myth Lover. And what you were doing was exploring Tolkien's mythopia. And it started off with some information about Lewis. His dear friend referred to myth as lies, even though breathed through silver. And then Tolkien responded with his poem and Tolkien states, even though they meaning the myths contain error, they will also reflect a splintered fragment of the true light. Okay, with that as the basis of this, we're going to talk about physics, Allen's physics, which is something that I've never agreed with Alan on. So therefore this is my chance and it has to do with Legolas ability to see past the curvature of the Earth? Are physics even needed whenever we are dealing with something that is a fragment of the true light? And can we abandon the courses mathematical in quotes and believe in the power of myth here so that Legolas can see past the curvature of the Earth, being as he is an elf, and elves were from the flat land, the flat earth, and so therefore there's no curvature to worry about. And so anyway, that's my question. Can we leave the mathematics behind and see if we can agree that Legolas can see past the curvature of the Earth?

[Sara]

How are the wheels of the bus feeling across your body there, Alan?

[Alan Sisto]

Oh, wow. All right, Sara, so who's first up today?

[Sara]

Oh, that would be you, love.

[Alan Sisto]

We have a question on the table. I'm so sorry. What?

[Sara]

Nice stalling.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah, well, okay, I get the point. The point is, of course this is, you know, as she said, a splinter of the light you know, this is not representative of, you know, actual reality. I, of course, like the more grounded aspects of it. I find the things in Tolkien that are more realistic to be the more believable things. It's all about that secondary belief rather than a suspension of disbelief, as it were. And I think, for me, at least, and I know it's a personal thing, it's just how we all read it, but for me, I find that imagining Legolas to be able to see because light is still light around the curvature of the earth as being something that for me would require the suspension of disbelief rather than a secondary belief. And I get, again, because there's no, you know, hard answer here, I am probably not going to be able to put that down. But I love that people can read that way and be, all right, you know what? I'm going to believe that Legolas can see around the. The curvature. That's totally fine. I mean, you know, we've talked about this before. It was like with Boromir's horn, we did a little calculation that if Boromir's horn was actually being able to be heard physically in Minas Tirith due to the vibration of air and the sound waves traveling that far, A, it would have taken a really, really long time. B, it would have disintegrated every Orc to their component molecules, just absolutely blown them to shreds. So, you know, we can't obviously put everything through a hardcore scientific rigor when it comes to Tolkien or when it comes to fantasy in general. Really, it comes down to that distinction between suspension of disbelief and secondary belief. What about you, Sara? What are your thoughts on this?

[Sara]

Well, I'm a lit. Prof. So suspension of disbelief is my bread and butter, right? And I am totally okay with that. I find that. I mean, not to utterly disagree with you, Alan, but I utterly disagree with you because I like a little myth in my payer, right? I enjoy the idea of hand waving some things because it expands the universe that we are looking through. I am okay with the idea of it not being so much reality as verisimilitude. Right? There are resonances of reality within this story, and that's okay, but it doesn't need to be all real for me. In fact, I love the mythic quality of it. For me, the idea that an elf can see past the curvature of the earth is perfectly fine. One, because when the elves were first born, the earth, the earth was not curved at all. Two, there is no straight road anymore for anyone else, but the elves can leave Middle Earth and go to Valinor. And if they can see that path, then they can see around the curvature of the Earth as well. Because they're special.

[Alan Sisto]

And this is very special, I won't deny that.

[Sara]

Exactly.

[Alan Sisto]

They're able to travel through Ilmen to get to the Undying Lands. Right through space, essentially.

[Sara]

Exactly.

[Alan Sisto]

So if they could do that, they can do a lot of things. Yeah.

[Sara]

I get what you're saying about Boromir's horn. Absolutely. But, and also, I've very much enjoyed people doing the calculations about, you know, the, the beacons being lit and how long that would actually take and all that kind of thing. I mean, all that is lovely.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah.

[Sara]

But, you know, it's story, it is myth, it is glorious in the way in which it tells that story. And I personally don't always want to be brought back, clunk. To Earth by someone saying that the physics of this doesn't work. Because my response is usually, I don't care.

[Alan Sisto]

And truth be told, that is actually where. I mean, I don't care. If somebody wants to think that, that's totally fine. I'm never. This isn't Balrog wings. I'm not dying on this.

[Sara]

Oh, no, that's different. I would die on that hill.

[Alan Sisto]

I just want to make sure. Yeah, I'm dying on the Bow Wings hill. I'm dying on the Feynman is not a good guy hill. But I'm not going to die on the Legolas around the curvature of the Earth hill.

[Sara]

That's fair enough.

[Alan Sisto]

I think, for me, when I read. And keep in mind that, you know, Demay, you brought up episode two, which takes me way back. I mean, takes me back nine years. More than nine years, actually.

[Sara]

Yeah. Alan's hair was all still dark brown.

[Alan Sisto]

It really was, because my kids were still very young. We had just in episode one, the episode before that, in our launch episode, talked about on fairy stories and one of the things that Tolkien talks about there is that distinction between the willing suspension of disbelief, which is a perfectly credible thing to do, and the reality that you build when you're a sub creator and he talks about that you believe it while you are, as it were, inside talking about the things that happen accord with the laws of that world. The moment disbelief arises, the spell is broken, the magic, or rather art, has failed. And then you're outside looking at the secondary world from. From that primary world. And I can see how talking about the physics and sort of making it a thing can make it to where some people get popped out of that secondary world and are now having to look down in the primary world from the outside. And for me it's just the other way around. If, if Tolkien had written that they are able to see this way because of X, Y or Z, then I would see this successful sub creation and I would then be able to remain within that, that secondary belief or that secondary world. So that's just where it comes down to for me. But I love the idea and like you said, it's certainly, it's not a hill I'm dying on. I love that people can, can imagine things differently than me and aren't quite as left brained, shall we say, and very, you know, spreadsheet driven as I might sometimes be.

[Sara]

Yeah, but it's what you were saying about how it actually does adhere to the rules of that world. It doesn't adhere to the rules of our world, but it adheres to the rules of Tolkien sub creation.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah, exactly. And that's why I have no problem with, I don't even think about it twice about elves traversing Ilmen, you know, which the story tells us that flesh unaided cannot survive. Right. It's a vacuum, it's space. But because he says they can do this then therefore they can do this.

[Sara]

Anyway, I think Sarah wants to add something in. Yeah.

[Demay]

So I was just thinking, I know you said before that there were things that were built long time ago, like when the Numenoreans first came over, that men of this time, humans of this time then are not able to build now.

[Alan Sisto]

Right.

[Demay]

So as somebody whose training is in physics, I love the little physics asides about, you know, figuring things out and Barbara's horn, like blowing things up. But I also love the idea that there were things that were able to be done in the past that we don't have access to now, that there is that myth quality. And I like to think that we just don't understand elf eyes. Just a thought.

[Alan Sisto]

Okay, that's totally fair. Yeah. I mean that brings up the whole idea of Eld ente ye work. Right. The old work of giants, the ancient work of giants. And that's actually a really. I'm thinking in some other fictional universes where that's a thing. The idea that this thing that was made in the past is so great and so fantastic and we've lost the ability to do that today. That's like Central to Warhammer 40,000. Right. Everything's built off these templates that, you know, the standard template construction. And I'm getting really deep aside. If I start Getting into that. So reign me in, Sarah. But the idea is that there's all these things that. That we were once able to do that we can't do now. It's a wonderful element to the story. It does add a tremendous mythic characteristic to it. And it works for those things like. Like Orthanc. Right? The Argonath, even the. The city of Minas Tirith itself. I mean, yeah, they're able to rebuild the gate with the help of the doors, but if they'd managed to destroy that wall, that entire. The wall that's black, actually, that is made out of the same stuff that Orthanc is made out of, which is probably some sort of volcanic rock. I don't know if they would have been able to reproduce that. You know, you see Legolas and Gimli walking around, and Gimli observes, there's some great stonework. And Legolas says something about, yes, but the better stonework is, the older. And there's really that observation that as the society advances, those skills, those abilities, those powers actually reduce. So, yeah, I like that. I can certainly buy that as a hook to hang the belief of seeing around the curvature of the Earth on that we as men in the Seventh Age, or whatever age we're supposedly in now, are unable to understand or comprehend what the Elves of the First, Second and Third Age. Well, not First Age, because the Earth wasn't spherical at that point, but of the second half of the Second Age and Third Age could do. So. Yeah, I like that. And I love that you brought in the idea of Ealdentijwark. The ancient work of giants is so key to what we see in Tolkien. We see it a lot, that's for sure.

[Sara]

What a great question, Dumai.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah, thank you, Duma. Kind of. All right, Sara, who do we have up next?

[Sara]

Next is Olivia.

[Alan Sisto]

Olivia, welcome.

[Sara]

Hi. I've had this question since I first read Lord of the Rings when I was, I don't know, 13. So, Gimli, paths of the Dead, aside from the narrative device, which is necessary, which I know you and Alan have talked about in previous episodes of the ppp why is Gimli so terrified of the dead when the Men, okay, they've got Aragorn, but the men who would naturally be completely terrified by their own kind, just seem to kind of walk through it. And lendless sign, Legolas, who obviously hasn't got a problem with any of this, but why is Gimli so terrified?

[Alan Sisto]

That is an interesting question to look at, that. I was thinking originally to look at the passing of the Grey Company. Of course, that's when Aragorn, Legolas, Gimli and the Rangers go into the paths of the dead. But we don't really get a lot through that of Gimli's fear. I mean, we see that it's there, right? I mean, he's absolutely terrified. And I think the fact that we see that chapter through his perspective is simply because of the narrative technique that Tolkien uses a lot which is to put us in the shoes of the least knowledgeable character. Right? That's why it's so often Sam. Poor guy. It's usually Sam. But when it's not, in this case, Gimli is going to be the one. But what I want to look at is Gimli's response. And this is what I think Olivia was alluding to here was his absolute terror. So in the chapter, the Last Debate, they're all sort of talking about, you know, what's. What's happened and what they're going to be doing. And in this case, Pippin wants to know about this strange journey that he and Legolas has mentioned, you know, a dozen times already this morning. Gimli says, the sun may shine here but there are memories of that road that I do not wish to recall. Out of the darkness had I known what was before me I think not for any friendship would I have taken the powers of the dead. The powers of the dead, said Pippin. I heard Aragorn say that, and I wondered what he could mean. Won't you tell us some more? Not willingly. For upon that road I was put to shame. Gimli, glowing son who had deemed himself more tough than men and hardier under earth than any elf. But neither did I prove and I was held to the road only by the will of Aragorn and Legolas goes on to say, but also for the love of Aragorn. And he still, even at the end of all that, Gimli's like, I'm not going to talk about that journey. Now, we know that he was terrified. We know that Legolas was not terrified. Because Legolas says, I felt not the horror I feared, not the shadows of men powerless and frail as I deemed them. Okay, you go, Legolas. Clearly, ghost stories aren't going to spook you. But the question then is, why, perhaps, was Gimli so afraid when the men were not, when the Rangers were not? I think with Aragorn, it wasn't so much a lack of fear but an understanding that he had the authority. So even though there may have been fear. He knew he had the power, the right authority, the just authority to command the dead. But I'm trying to see if there's a passage about the fear of the riders, the fear of the Rangers themselves before I do. Erwin's got something to throw in here. Erwin.

[Sara]

Yeah.

[Erwin]

I'm also thinking that in Tolkien's legendarium the. The elves are very specifically one of the designated children of Iluvatar, as are men. And the Dwarves are obviously created by Aule. In my perspective, Elves are omnipotent. No, they know everything, so to say. So they're quite comfortable with ghosts or spirits, if, if I put it like that. And men are quite used to Elves being the.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah, sort of the ideal, the thing to strive.

[Erwin]

Yeah, exactly. And Dwarves are very seclusive and they think they know all. But now they come to a point where at least then of Gimli he comes to have to battle with sprites, with ghosts. While usually Dwarves battle then dragons and orcs and very physical things. But they have never battled ghosts. And although obviously the Dunedan who are part of the group are also a more elite status, they also trust Aragorn. But they also are very acceptant of that. There are different things and people who.

[Alan Sisto]

Know better, they're also even willing, they accept that there may be a bad thing on the other side of these doors. I mean, I'm thinking of Halberat who says this is an evil door and my death lies beyond it. And he's right, it does. And then he says, I will dare to pass it nonetheless. So there's something in these men who follow Aragorn that Gimli just doesn't have yet. And that's sort of the way I want to look at this. Like if Gimli were to follow aragorn for another 10 years, I wonder if he would feel as much fear. Like Aragorn's such a leader. He's such. I mean if he's able to hold these, these, the men of the Grey Company to this sort of loyalty and this sort of commitment. I think it just would be a matter of time that Gimli would be able to follow that leadership. But Erwin, I think you're onto something about the children of Iluvatar, maybe it's fair to say. And Sara, I want to get your thoughts on this because Elves and men are sort of the natural born children of Iluvatar. Is there something extra or maybe something missing in the Dwarves that would make them more afraid of spirits than let's say Even men might be.

[Sara]

That's a really, really interesting question. I was thinking while you and Erwin were talking that of all of the mortal peoples of Middle Earth the Dwarves are most rooted to earth. To rock.

[Alan Sisto]

To stone. To physicality.

[Sara]

To physicality. And they're even made out of earth. Right? So for them, that idea of something existing outside of that must hold a strangeness that perhaps for the children of Iluvatar, it doesn't quite. In the same way. That's what I was thinking when you two were talking anyway.

[Alan Sisto]

I like that. That's a very good way of thinking through that. This is. I mean, obviously this is one of those questions that is unanswerable in the most literal sense, of course. But it is a really fun one to sort of wrestle with, to think through. And it's really easy to answer the Legolas and it's even sort of easy to answer about Aragorn. But yeah, distinguishing Gimli from one of the ordinary 30 Rangers. But like Erwin said, they're not ordinary. None of them are. These are all the Dunedain. These are all descended from Numenoreans. And that is not something to dismiss. These are not low men. These are high men. And these are really arguably the highest of the high men at this point. So, yeah, I mean, I know we would all be scared. I'm sure the Hobbits would be terrified. Even though, you know, they're descended from Men. Therefore they are children of Illuvitar in the more literal sense as opposed to the sense that the Dwarves are. But I think maybe that comes back to what you said, Sarah about their being tied into the Earth in so many ways. I mean, the Hobbits are so close to the Earth. And I don't mean that in the literal sense that just because they're short. I mean, because they're so very. You know, they love. They literally live in the earth. They dig holes in the ground for the most part. But, you know, their. Their love of gardening and all of these other things that are very tangible. They're not a bunch of philosophers and historians and they work with what's. What they can hold on to very much like Dwarves do. There may be. There may be something to be said about that. About that sort of being tied to the Earth in a way that makes you then a little more afraid of the incorporeal eczema isn't always obvious, but it's real. And so is the relief from Evglis. After an initial dosing phase of 16 weeks about 4 in 10 people taking Epglis achieved itch relief and clear or almost clear skin, and most of those.

[Demay]

People maintain skin that's still more clear.

[Alan Sisto]

At one year with monthly dosing. EBGLIS Lebricizumab LBKZ, a 250mg 2ml injection, is a prescription medicine used to treat adults and children 12 years of age and older who weigh at least 88 pounds or 40 kilograms with moderate to severe eczema, also called atopic dermatitis, that is not well controlled with prescription therapies used on the skin or topicals, or who cannot use topical therapies. Ebgliss can be used with or without topical corticosteroids. Don't use if you're allergic to ebglis. Allergic reactions can occur that can be severe. Eye problems can occur. Tell your doctor if you have new or worsening eye problems. You should not receive a live vaccine when treated with Ebglis. Before starting Ebglis, tell your doctor if you have a parasitic infection searching for real relief? Ask your doctor about eglis and visit eglis.lilly.com or call 1-800-lilyrx or 1-800-545-5979.

[Sara]

This episode is brought to you by State Farm. You might say all kinds of stuff.

[Alan Sisto]

When things go wrong, but these are the words you really need to remember. Like a good neighbor, State Farm is there. They've got options to fit your unique insurance needs, meaning you can talk to your agent to choose the coverage you.

[Sara]

Need, have coverage options to protect the.

[Alan Sisto]

Things you value most, file a claim right on the State Farm mobile app, and even reach a real person when you need to talk to someone.

[Sara]

Like a good neighbor, State Farm is there.

[Alan Sisto]

Now. Soon we're going to get back to more listener questions, but before we do, we want to remind you there is a lot more talk going on at the Prancing Pony Podcast than just us.

[Sara]

The PPP has an amazing listener community. They're always coming up with great questions and discussions across all our social media spaces. Check out our Common room on Facebook, our dedicated subreddit, Twitter and more on Facebook.

[Alan Sisto]

Just look for the Prancing Pony podcast. Follow the page to get the news, but you're going to want to join the group to get in some great discussions.

[Sara]

And you'll definitely want to subscribe to our YouTube channel where we're PrancingPonyPod now. Conveniently enough, that's also how you will find us on Twitter, Instagram, bluesky and Twitch. And if you prefer Reddit, find us there at R. Prancingponypod.

[Alan Sisto]

And if you want daily Tolkien content, check out today's Tolkien times on the PPP YouTube channel and your favorite podcast apps. It's my short format daily show with everything from Middle Earth Map Mondays to Silmarillion Saturdays. And then there's my new twice weekly streaming of all fun things Middle Earth on the PPP plays. Be sure to check both of those out on the YouTube channel for all the PPP productions at YouTube.com prancingponypod all right, Sara, we got a lot more questions to go, so who's up next?

[Sara]

Okay, so next up is Nakat.

[Alan Sisto]

Nakat. Welcome back.

[Nakat]

Hello. So I'm going to dig some old bones.

[Sara]

Uh oh, don't talk about Alan like that. What have I said? Honestly, Rude. I'm sorry. I've certainly cut into hysterics.

[Nakat]

It's just that I don't want to disrespect either of you, so Sara does.

[Alan Sisto]

It all the time, so feel free.

[Sara]

Alan's used to it by now, right?

[Nakat]

I have been obsessed with Turin. I won't say at the age of 13, when I read him, when I read Silmarillion for the last time, I started to understand why my obsession with Turin was not that justified. But still. And I can see him for the jerk he is. But at the same time, I want to ask this question. We say that Melian was one of the wisest of Maiar. So Melian, Beleg, Mablung, all of those favored Turin in many ways. They said they loved him. They went out of their way. Well, definitely Belloc to his death in order to help Turin. And Melyan broke her, you know, rule of giving lembas only to elves. And he was the first mortal to get the Lembas. And then he had the privilege of distributing it to other people as well. So why did he get this much favor of such wise and powerful people from Doriath?

[Alan Sisto]

Okay, that's a good question. Let's talk about the. The fostering of Turin by Thingol and in Doriath. What was the motivation for that? First, I want to touch on the Lembas thing. I'm actually, I've pulled up the children of Hurin. The full version rather than the Silmarillion version. This. Of course, I'm sure Melian knew that it was going to eventually go to Turin, but she'd actually given it to Beleg because for a moment, of course, Turin wants nothing to do with it. Right. He says, the helm of my fathers I take with goodwill for your keeping, said Turin. But I will not receive gifts out of Doriath. This is like teenage angst. Turin, who wants nothing to do with his parents. Beleg's like, well, then send back your sword in your arms. Send back also the teaching and the fostering of your youth. And let your men who you say have been faithful die in the desert to please your mood. Nonetheless, this way, bread was a gift, not to you, but to me. And I may do with it as I will eat it. Not if it sticks in your throat, but others may be more hungry and less proud. And that breaks Turin. And he's like, all right, I get you. You know, I wonder that you deign to come back to such a churl. So, you know, Turin does have that. That special relationship with Belike. Beleg is able to kind of call him, to call him, to count on this. But let's talk about that fostering in Doriath and the fact that you're right, he gets so much, really favor from everybody in Doriath with the exception of what's his name, that he runs naked off the cliff. Cyrus. Not that he necessarily deserved anything less, but, yeah, this. The fostering, why. Why was that such a. A thing?

[Sara]

I think it has to go back to Hurin, doesn't it?

[Alan Sisto]

Exactly.

[Sara]

It has to go back to Hurin and the great respect that even elves as great as Thingol and Melian would, of course, Melian, Maya, not just elf, would have for Hurin, Mr. Ra and Taluva, you know, he was part of that great battle. He was one of the reasons why so many of the elves actually survived. The ones that did. Part of that is to do with Hurin. He sacrificed himself. And I think that that gained a whole lot of goodwill amongst the greater Elves. So I think, you know, without knowing Turin, because they didn't know him until he was sent there.

[Alan Sisto]

It's to do with Hurin, and very young, too. Yeah.

[Sara]

Yeah.

[Alan Sisto]

I'm sure there's an element also of just genuine sympathy for this. This young boy who shows so much spirit, so much strength at such a young age. I mean, when. When Beleg asks what boon would you have of King Thingol, he says, I would be one of his knights to ride against Morgoth and avenge my father. This is like a little kid still.

[Sara]

Yeah.

[Alan Sisto]

And it's just absolutely amazing that he ends up being adopted in. And again, I'm looking at the novel version, which I love because it's so Much richer, so much fuller. Beleg explains to him that you have the makings of a valiant man, worthy to be a son of Uhur in the steadfast, if that were possible. You realize just how much respect they have for Hurin, as you said. And even the narrative tells us the name of Hurin was held in honor in all the lands of the elves. But when he gets there, Listen, this is just. Again, I'm touched by this. He comes to the great bridge. He passes the gates into Thingol's hall. As a child, he gazed upon the marvels of Menegroth, which no mortal man before had seen, save Beren only. And I think I want to come back to that, because I think Beren plays a small role in this, too. Not even a small role, but Gethron spoke the message of Morwun before Thingol and Melian. Thingol received them kindly, set Turin upon his knee in honor of Hurin, mightiest of men, and of Beren, his kinsmen. And those that saw this marveled, for it was a sign that Thingol took Turin as his foster son. That was not at that time done by kings nor ever again by Elflord to a man. And Thingol said to him, this is Thingol, a guy that I'm pretty hard on because he doesn't listen to Melian. He's pretty egotistical. He's condescending to the dwarves. He's flat out just wrong with Beren, you know? I mean, he's trying to get him killed, but still honoring the promise that he made to his daughter. Totally different guy here. He says, here, son of Hurin shall your home be. And in all your life, you shall be held as my son, man though you be. Wisdom shall be given you beyond the measure of mortal men, and the weapons of the elves shall be set in your hands. Dwell now here in love. I think Thingol's also got a lot of guilt about how he treated Beren.

[Sara]

And so he should thank you.

[Alan Sisto]

Yes, and so he should. And I feel like this is his chance to do it right. This is a combination of deep respect for Hurin and the remorse that he has for how poorly he treated Baron. But it's absolutely beautiful, and I love what they do for him. And I think it, just, to be honest, makes his story all the more tragic because he was deeply loved. This wasn't a guy who had to make these choices. Anyway, that's a whole nother story. Nakat, you wanted to follow up one.

[Nakat]

He did not have any other daughter. So There was that fear gone. At the same time, I feel that there was something about Turin that they respected. He could gather a lot of respect from other people, including the moment when he died. Mablung said this thing that due to my words, I have killed the person whom I loved. He was no Feanur to begin with. It was not just his father whom he loved. So I feel that there is something, some honor in Turin himself also.

[Alan Sisto]

Oh, yeah, there is.

[Sara]

Oh, yes.

[Nakat]

Yeah.

[Sara]

Very much so. Yes.

[Alan Sisto]

100. I mean, he may have made some poor choices, but, you know, I want to be really clear. I may see him as having made poor choices, but he's not a villain like. Like Feanor or like AOL or certainly not like a Myglin. This is just a guy who. Who should have made better decisions and whose life would have gone better had he done. Had he made those better decisions and not just his life.

[Sara]

He was under a curse. Let's not forget he's under a curse.

[Alan Sisto]

He was.

[Sara]

And, you know, we can have that fate versus free will debate for the entire night, can't we?

[Alan Sisto]

We sure could.

[Sara]

Yeah.

[Alan Sisto]

And how much of that covered him when he was in Doriath? Because in theory there. He shouldn't have been able to make those. He wouldn't have been under the effects of the curse. But.

[Sara]

Yeah, yeah, but he still counted among the great.

[Alan Sisto]

Yes, for good reason.

[Sara]

Named by Elrond at the Council of.

[Alan Sisto]

Elrond as one of the elf friends. Yes, I love that.

[Sara]

Exactly. So, you know, he. He's. Even though his choices were, on occasions, less than stellar.

[Alan Sisto]

Oh, yeah.

[Sara]

He is still renowned. And his name is carried all the way down the ages by Elrond.

[Alan Sisto]

For good reason. Yes, yes. And to the point that Tolkien even has in the unpublished Dagor. Daggarath. Right. The battle at the end of all time, it is Turin who is said to slay Morgoth. So clearly Tolkien had, you know, a degree of respect for t himself. Like, he didn't hold him as a bad person. He held him as a good person who made bad choices.

[Sara]

Yeah, yeah, I agree.

[Alan Sisto]

Great question, though. Really great question. All right, Sarah, who do we have up next?

[Sara]

We have Sarah.

[Alan Sisto]

Sarah, welcome back.

[Demay]

Hello, everyone. It is lovely to be here. I love hanging out with all my prancing Pony people. So this question is going to bring us back into the time frame of the Lord of the Rings. I'm doing my first eyeball read through of Lord of the Rings in quite some time, and I came across a sentence or a scene in Fog on the Barrow downs, which I hadn't ever really questioned before. So it's after Mary has had his experience of feeling like he's been shot through the heart. I expect Alan to break into song now.

[Sara]

Well, you're to blame.

[Alan Sisto]

Wow. Well played, Sarah.

[Sara]

Thank you. Thank you.

[Demay]

After that, as Tom is spreading out the things that have been inside the barrow on the hillside so that they could get sunshine and light and become less evil, he picks up a brooch with blue stones and he says, here's a pretty toy for Tom and his lady fair Was she who long ago wore this on her shoulder. Goldberry shall wear it now and we will not forget her. So my question is, I don't think we know who she was. And if so, you can tell me. If not, do you have any headcanon or do you want to speculate on who, who this woman was that Tom remembers?

[Alan Sisto]

Oh my. I do like that question. We don't know who it was, but clearly Tom does. And I think that's the thing we're supposed to take away from this, is that Tom's memory goes back with incredible clarity. I mean the fact that he can recall who it was that wore this all the way back in the time of the kingdom of Arnor or by this point just the remnant kingdom of Arthedain. Wow. Going back a couple thousand years and he's able to remember who it was. Do we have a headcanon on this? Do you have one? It's a beautiful moment, but I've never really put any thought into I wonder who this woman was.

[Sara]

Well, for each of the hobbits he chose a dagger. Where did these daggers come from? Where were they made? We're going back a very, very long time here, aren't we? Who were those who were able to smithy such daggers? What does Merry do with the dagger that he has? Right, yeah. So where do these daggers come from? Now? I. I don't know that they are daggers of Gondolin in the same way that Sting and, and Gandalf sword are. But they're obviously of extremely old making. But they must have some power of their own otherwise Mary would not have been able to stab the Witch King.

[Alan Sisto]

Right. Well, they're, they're, they're at least you know, Numenorean. Right. Well, made by the men of Numenor. They might be made by men of Numenor in exile. Right. I mean, Tom tells them specifically that their blades forged many long years ago by men of Westerness and that that they were of course the Foes. The Witch King. The Witch King was the one who was crushing them in those three splintered kingdoms from Arnor. And those blades are. So it's. It's going to be a woman of Westerness.

[Sara]

Exactly. That's what I was wheeling all the way around to, is that. This must be a shortcut. I know. Well, I just took the long cut because why not? This must be a lady of Westerness, you know, one of the. The ladies that possibly one of the ones who came from Numenor out of the west to escape one of the originals, maybe. If it's that long ago. Certainly if it is, you know, a brooch of importance that Tom remembers, it could well be some kind of heirloom that even came from Numenor.

[Alan Sisto]

Very well.

[Sara]

So that's my kind of head cannon there. That it's. It's so recognizable to tomorrow.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah.

[Sara]

That, you know, if he'd seen it once at a cocktail party 3,000 years ago, it's unlikely he would remember it. But maybe it's a brooch that he's seen because it is something that was an heirloom of that family and so it was significant. I don't know. That certainly fits.

[Alan Sisto]

I like that. I like that a lot. Because we think about all the things that did come from Numenor that the. The faithful were able to bring with them into exile, you know, whether it be the Elendilmir or any of the other things that they were able to bring. Bring back from Anadune. I was trying to think of all the various names of Numenor. There's so many. It's wonderful. Andor the Land of Gift and so many. But, yeah, I like the idea that this actually goes all the way back to a time where he may not remember it from Numenor because he was never in Numenor as far as we know. A woman of Westerness wearing it, having descended in her family. I love that. I think that's a beautiful idea. And I wonder if it's in some way perhaps related to the. The Prince of Cardalan, who Mary felt, you know, was stabbed through the heart, you know, could very well be connected to that. I love the idea.

[Sara]

I love the. The bit on the next page where Tom says few now remember them yet some still. Some go wandering sons of forgotten kings walking in loneliness, guarding from evil things, folks that are heedless. And of course, there he's talking about the Rangers.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah.

[Sara]

But then the hobbits get a vision of it. Says a vision, as it were, of A great expanse of years behind them like a vast shadowy plain over which there strode shapes of men, tall and grim, with bright swords. And last came one with a star on his brow.

[Alan Sisto]

They literally got a vision of Aragorn before they met Strider. And, and it's a tremendous vision. I love it. And I love that Tom's words have the ability to put that vision in their minds. What a gift that Tom has to do that. I love that. That's that really, if there's one thing that I, I know, and this isn't a gripe, this is more of a. I wish they could have. I missed that. We didn't get this in the Jackson films. You know, the whole Barrow down sequence, the whole. First of all, because Jackson would have done such a fantastic job of creating a terrifying scene with really creepy.

[Sara]

Yes, it would have been good.

[Alan Sisto]

But also just to get the history behind the swords and to, to see, even to, to see perhaps this vision through the eyes of the hobbits. But you know, then you'd have to have six or eight movies to do it the way I want to do it, so. Okay, I know, I got no problem with that.

[Sara]

All right.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah, I'm fine. If they want to make some more, they could go back and do like a film of just the Barrow Downs and then they could do like a two film series on the Scouring of the Shire and I'd be perfectly happy.

[Sara]

That's around the time that they would make the Children of Hurin the film.

[Alan Sisto]

Oh, don't, don't, don't, don't let me dream that the R rated Tolkien adaptation. The NC17 rated Tolkien adaptation.

[Sara]

Oh boy. Yes.

[Alan Sisto]

I mean, man, talk about, talk about some warnings, you know, this is not the Hobbit. It's not your grandfather's Middle Earth story. Oh, great question. Absolutely love that callback to the idea of an heirloom from Numenor.

[Sara]

And what a lovely little thing to pick out. Just a little throwaway moment. It really is easily forgotten. That's gorgeous.

[Alan Sisto]

It's another one of those things that Tolkien adds that gives us that sense of history. And those are the things that make me feel this world is so real because it has a history. It's in a way a textual ruin, as Dr. Drought might call it. The idea of. Here's this clue. We're not going to tell you anything about this thing. We're not going to tell you who wore it. We're not going to tell you when it came into existence. But its mere presence at this point in the story tells you there is a history here, and it is old.

[Sara]

And Tolkien keeps doing this. And we have to remember that when the Lord of the Rings was published, nobody except, well, mostly him, had even seen the Silmarillion. So, you know, you get Aragorn singing a little bit of the Tale of Beren and Luthien.

[Alan Sisto]

Yes.

[Sara]

And they just leave it there.

[Alan Sisto]

I know.

[Sara]

And we don't know anything. And like I said earlier, Elrond saying, oh, I'm Turin. And we're all like, well, who the heck is Turin?

[Alan Sisto]

Right. It was like when. When we learned about the blades made in Gondolin and the Hobbit. It's like the first of the. The real textual ruins. And you're like, what? Gondolin, Elf? The Goblin Wars?

[Sara]

What are you talking about, Westerness? What's this now? And also, I mean, let's take it forward to Shelob, the last child of Ungoliant to trouble this unhappy world. Ungoliant who.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah, exactly.

[Sara]

Just keeps dropping these little things in there, but never tells us anything about that. And we don't learn anything about that until we finally get silmarillion, which is 20 years later. Yeah, yeah.

[Alan Sisto]

My favorite. And I'm sure there are dozens of people, okay, maybe three people around the entire world who are now waiting for Alan to say the obvious, which is, I love that Theoden is compared to Orame as he's charging the Battle of the Pillinor Fields, like, Orame and his wrath. And I get chills, but that's because I've read the Silmarillion. I know who or is. But, yeah, you read that in 1956. And, like, who now, you know, and.

[Sara]

You just have to accept that this is a thing.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah, yeah. And that every single one of these clues opens up more. And then you look at one of those, and that opens up more. Tolkien could only go so far in a practical sense, but he also chooses to only go so far because he likes to leave those. Those vistas unexplored.

[Sara]

Lord, Man, Delorious.

[Alan Sisto]

Absolutely. All right, Sarah, who is next up?

[Sara]

Okay, we now have David.

[Alan Sisto]

David, welcome. Hey, glad to be here. And I'll kind of pick up on Sarah's point, but it was a small, you know, broach from. From history. And what was its impact? Or, you know, what. What was the meaning here? But I want to go back to the big picture. You know, we've got 3,000 years of the. The Third Age, but before that we had, you know, three millennia or more of the. Of the Second Age, aside from the fall of Numenor and the forging of the Rings, what were the Second Age events that really had the most impact on the Third Age? Ooh. That had the most impact on the Third Age? Yeah. I mean, obviously, you hit the biggest ones.

[Sara]

Thanks for that.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah, thanks for taking away our thunder. Really appreciate that. No, I mean, I think it's not just the downfall of Numenor, it's the establishment of Numenor. Right. I mean, that's. That's created at the very beginning of the Second Age and its establishment. And the sort of setting aside or setting apart of the Edain, the Three Houses of the Edain, is really, really significant because that ends up being the driving factor for the sort of the ascent of man and the descent of Elves that we see in the Fourth Age. Right. I mean, it's those men are the ones that will lead the world of Men into the future. So I would say maybe the establishment of Numenor, the creation of the Ring.

[Sara]

Race, is pretty important.

[Alan Sisto]

Oh, yeah. I mean, I know that's, you know, secondary or consequential to the creation of the Rings of Power, but that is very significant because you've created these beings that are now, you know, extraordinarily powerful, wielding, you know, incredible influence in Middle Earth on Sauron's behalf for thousands of years. There are some things that I think are significant in the history of Numenor before its fall that impact the Third Age. I'm trying to think maybe about their impact on the Third Age, but mostly the alliance that starts to develop between Men and Elves that then finds its full fruit in the Last Alliance. I think if we don't have Eldarion establishing an alliance with Gil Galad in the middle of the Second Age, I'm not sure that there's a strong enough alliance with the Elves for them to all unite and create the Last alliance itself, though, again, that's also Second Age. The Last Alliance. But its presence, obviously, is the driving factor of the Third Age. And while we're thinking of other things that perhaps were influential in the Second Age, Olivia, you've got something to want to throw in there.

[Sara]

To me, very important, the corset. So basically, the whole Numenor invades and starts to bring, essentially, first trade, but then, unfortunately, terror to the Men of the south, who then become much more inclined to go back to Sauron.

[Alan Sisto]

That's a very good point. I mean, the hostility that Gondor faces with Umbar dates way back to the Second Age. And the sort of imperial expansionism stage of Numenor that definitely impacts Third Age and even fourth to that end. Yeah. Most of the things that I'm thinking of are all related to the men of Numenor doing things in the Second.

[Sara]

Age that like the colonialism that actually creates all sorts of problems. Another one I want to mention is the establishment of Eregion.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah, the establishment of Eregion is significant. I mean, this is the first purely Noldoran establishment. A Noldoran kingdom in Middle Earth. Trying to think of some others. So many things have to do with Numenor, though.

[Sara]

Yes. I mean, it's pretty central to what we have. Because here's the thing, we have so little actually written of the Second Age. And the things that were written were what Tolkien thought were the main things that were going to happen, like the creation of the Rings of Power and the story of Numenor.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah, that's a good point. I mean, the Second Age does revolve around those things. So over in chat, Nakat mentions another significant moment. And I think she's right. And it's when the Numenorean authority did not go to the eldest child, when it was Silmarin, and she ended up becoming, well, her son, who was the first of the lords at the end of. Oh, shoot, now I'm drawing a blank. Lords of Andunie. Right.

[Sara]

Lords of Andunie, Yeah.

[Alan Sisto]

And of course, it was from her that the faithful were descended. Elendil draws his descent from her, but she was skipped over for being the ruling queen. And it wasn't until Aldarion and Arendus daughter Ancalame, when Eldarion changed the law of succession to enable Ancalome to be a ruling queen. That's a significant moment for a number of reasons, one of which comes to mind, which is way later, at near the very end of the time of the kings of Gondor, when the last king of Arthedain, Arvedui, claims the throne of Gondor and says, guys, you know, I. I need to be the king. Right? You don't have any surviving kings in the line. And, you know, you don't want to give it to this Arnil character because he's, you know, not, you know, you need to give it to me. I'm. I'm the king.

[Sara]

He was claiming it through his wife, wasn't he?

[Alan Sisto]

He was claiming it on two grounds, right? Part of it through his wife, who was the daughter of Ondoher, the last king who had died along with his sons, Artemir And Faramir did like to reuse those names. Yeah. And this is where I go on an aside and say, like, Faramir pulled an eowyn but wasn't as successful. He went off in disguise to war and just got himself killed. So instead of staying in Minas territory, he would have been king. That ended that line. And there were no other descendants. And so arvedui is like, hey, I am descended from Isildur, right? And so I am legitimately the king of Gondor, but also I am married to the daughter of Ondaher, and through her I can also claim this kingship. And Gondor says no. But what's key in all of that is that there is an argument made that the kings of Numenor allowed there to be queens, that the lines could be descended through the queens. And Gondor was. Nope, we only do it through the male line reckoning. And that was really an interesting thing. Like Gondor, when did they make that decision to abandon what had been the Numenorean tradition for several hundred years before its downfall. That is a very significant moment for sure.

[Sara]

And I'd like to mention her name because we haven't mentioned Firiel. Our Vedui's wife was called Firiel.

[Alan Sisto]

Yes, Firiel. Yes. And of course, that was also the name that Miriel became known as after she. I believe that's she who died. That means mortal woman. Firiel, if I remember correctly. Yeah. She had only married Arvedui maybe 30 years before. So it was really interesting that, you know, here he is claiming the kingship. Arguably a valid claim, but, you know, the stewards had long decided they were never going to accept a claim from a descendant of Isildur, ever. Like, they were like, we're not going to do that. So then we have the problem and we get Arnl and then we get Ar Noor. Who is. Or did I just get those two reversed? Sarah, Is it Ar Noor? No, it's. It was. Arnil was the one who became the king, and then his son Arnor was the one who went off.

[Sara]

Arnor is the doofus who went off thinking he could single handedly take down. Yes.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah. Nobody calls me chicken. And then he goes off and proves that he's a total.

[Sara]

He was a dead chicken.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah, pretty much. Yeah. Yeah, chicken with his head cut off. Quite literally. All right, that was a good one. And yeah, I think there are probably other elements that I'm thinking of, but I think you said, like, the foundation of Eregion, the creation of the Rings, which was included in David's question. The creation of the Ringwraiths from those rings. How about the establishment of Rivendell? Probably one last one, because that sort of the after effects of Eregion, you know, Imladris is founded by Elrond and becomes really the central repository of all Elven knowledge in the Third Age. So. All right, who do we have up next? Sara?

[Sara]

We have Andrea.

[Alan Sisto]

Andrea, welcome.

[Sara]

Thank you very much. I'm happy to be here. I have a question that dovetails nicely from David's question. And since this is my first questions after nightfall, I decided to ask ChatGPT to provide me with a good question for this discussion. Oh, Lord.

[Alan Sisto]

Oh, no. The AI makes its first appearance on the ppp.

[Sara]

So here's what it came up with.

[Alan Sisto]

Okay.

[Sara]

Tolkien was meticulous about the passage of time and the cycles of history in the Lord of the Rings. Given that Middle Earth has seen multiple ages of rise and decline, do you think the events of the War of the Ring represent a true breaking of the cycle? Or is it just another turning of the wheel? How might the Fourth Age have unfolded based on these patterns? And who would be the villain of the Fourth Age?

[Alan Sisto]

Oh, okay. Curse you, chatgpt. That's actually a really good question.

[Sara]

Yeah, I would say that's. That's not a terrible question. And I'll start by saying that it's part of the cycle because, yeah, absolutely. It would be part of the cycle because after all, it is referred to as fighting the long defeat. Right. The battle of good against evil is always ongoing and there will be moments where one overcomes the other and then it all continues. It just carries on because that is exactly how things work. A balance must be maintained. Evil can never be fully eradicated from the world.

[Alan Sisto]

Correct.

[Sara]

They. They win. A good moment in the destruction of the Ring. It certainly sets back the evil in the world, if you like, quite significantly because it's. It's the undoing of Sauron. I'm not going to call it the death of. It's a different thing. It's the undoing of Sauron and the removal of his Ring of Power from the chessboard. So this is. It's. It's a good moment for the side of good, but it's all part of the cycle. If you look all the way back through the First Age, there have been those cycles in which there have been wins and losses. All the way through this is a win. There will be more wins and more losses as we go even into the fourth age.

[Alan Sisto]

100%, 100%. And I can say that not only because I believe that, you know, that's just the nature of the world that Tolkien created, it's because of Tolkien's own words. And for this, I'm actually going to go to his letters, letter 211. He's writing to Rhona Bear, and he's talking about history and trying to fit this into real history and things along those lines. But what really intrigues me here is a footnote when he's talking about says, I doubt if there would have been much gain talking about writing things with greater verisimilitude. And I hope the evidently long but undefined gap in time between the fall of Barad Dur and our days is sufficient for literary credibility. But it's the footnote to that because he says, I imagine the gap to be about 6,000 years. That is, we are now at the end of the fifth age, if the ages were of about the same length as the second and Third Age, but they have, I think, quickened. And I imagine we are actually at the end of the sixth age, or in the seventh. And that's an interesting question because then you have to ask yourself, all right, if the fall of Sauron is the end of the third, and then we're in the seventh, what are the ends of the fourth, fifth and sixth ages? Given that he's writing this letter Post World War II, I'm almost thinking, maybe that's the end of the sixth age, but then we've got the end of the fourth and end of the fifth. Where are we in history? It's an interesting question. I don't have the answer to that, but definitely the continuing of the cycle. I go back to another letter of his in letter 256. He's talking about the sequel that he started writing to the Lord of the Rings, called the New Shadow. And he gave it up really quick. If you've ever read it, you're like, wow, there's not much to this story. And that's because he says the story proved both sinister and depressing.

[Sara]

Yeah, it really is.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah. He says it is inevitable because we're writing about men. It is inevitable that we should be concerned with the most regrettable feature of their nature, their quick. And I don't know how to. Satiety. I know the word he's talking about.

[Sara]

Satiety.

[Alan Sisto]

Satiety. Right. I mean, one is satiate. You know, one is. Is satisfied. They're quick.

[Sara]

Sated.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah, he's sated. They are quickly sated. With good. And he says that the peace and justice brought by Aragorn's reign would end up simply leading the people of Gondor to become discontented and restless. That is our nature, isn't it? You know, in a time of peace and time of plenty, things are good. We become discontented and restless. And even in that story, we start to get an idea of who the next villain is. He talks about how early on there was this outcrop of revolutionary plots, a center of secret Satanistic religion. I mean, it's already going very, very poorly indeed. And this is just, you know, still in the reign of Aragorn Elessar. Yeah, it's definitely a continuation of the cycle.

[Sara]

Yep, I completely agree with that. And yet, like you, Alan, if we're going with the number of thousands of years that each age seems to be, I mean, we're going still well into prehistory for the end of the Fourth Age, end of the fifth age. So as to. I mean, the other part of your question, Andrea, was who would be the Big Bad in the Fourth Age? And that's a really interesting idea because who knows? I mean, if the, if the Blue Wizards went east and went bad, maybe they come back and start creating mayhem. Who knows? We'll probably get some of that in the Rings of Power. But there isn't really left at this point a figure like Sauron. No, I mean, Saruman is gone and he was less than Sauron anyway.

[Alan Sisto]

And Sauron himself was less than Melkor, you know.

[Sara]

Exactly. And Melkor is beyond the bounds of this Earth in some nice tall cast bound chains. So who would be the Big Bad? The thing is, what Tolkien was always concerned with was human nature. And that within human nature we have our own kind of Big Bad always lurking within us. He points that out in, I can't remember the number of the letter when he's talking about Nazis and what's going on in the Second World War and how horrific it is. But also at the same time, you can't just, as somebody in a newspaper was suggesting, go and kill every single German person because, you know, that is not how you deal with things like this. And there is no right to do that. And he uses that. There is no right to do that. But I think he might be concerned that the Big Bad would be us.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah, I think absolutely so. And folks, that quote that Sara was thinking of, it's actually really worth looking at directly because it's so important. It's in letter 96. And this is a letter written To Christopher Tolkien in 1945, and he's talking about how he's just heard the news about Russians, you know, closing in on Berlin, and perhaps the end of the war is on its way. Yet people gloat to hear of the endless lines 40 miles long, of miserable refugees, women and children pouring west, dying on the way. There seem no bowels of mercy or compassion, no imagination left in this dark, diabolic hour, by which I do not mean that it may not all, in the present situation, mainly not solely created by Germany, be necessary and inevitable. But why gloat? We were supposed to have reached a stage of civilization in which it might still be necessary to execute a criminal, but not to gloat or to hang his wife and child by him while the orc crowd hooted. The destruction of Germany, be it 100 times merited, is one of the most appalling world catastrophes. He's not wrong.

[Sara]

He's not wrong.

[Alan Sisto]

That reflection on human nature is deeply troubling and as much applicable today as it was then. Heartbreaking.

[Sara]

Yes.

[Alan Sisto]

Like he says, we should have reached that stage of civilization, yet we have. Clearly not. And, you know, I think he realizes we're never going to, which is why this is just another turn of the cycle.

[Sara]

And thank you for bringing up the correct letter. I could remember the contents, but couldn't remember the name.

[Alan Sisto]

I couldn't either. But while you were talking about it, I went into the. Into my electronic copy and started looking for it. I'm like. Well, I know he talks about, like, the German people, or he talks about refugees. And so I like typing, trying to find my word search. There it is. Letter 96. Yeah, his. His letters to his kids in particular were, I think, deeply revealing of those things.

[Sara]

They really are. Yes. It tells us a lot about who he was as a person, what he actually believed in.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah.

[Sara]

And they are really revelatory to us.

[Alan Sisto]

Deeply personal. Sometimes I feel like I'm like, it's a cheat code, you know, like, am I supposed to know him this well? Because it's so revelatory. But, man, good stuff. All right, Sara, I think we've got at least one more here in the first round, right?

[Sara]

We do. It is. Well, he's been waiting so patiently. It's Erwin.

[Alan Sisto]

Erwin. Welcome, sir.

[Erwin]

Thank you very much. I have an idea in my head, or let's say an idea for a paper or so this is more like a pitch. So I became more and more intrigued by the person himself, and especially the moment that he's creating his art, the Result is well documented. You know, the genius of his creation, the volume of work that he had to go through to come to that point. I believe he, he was a savant. The amount of work, the things he did, simultaneously being a good father, being a professor, which is all in itself more than enough for most persons. But he did so much more in painting, in poetry, in writing, in creating the legendarian. How could he make this work in real life? I've come to the conclusion that in an act of unnecessary self depreciation or even creation, he believes himself to be, then Gollum and the Lord of the Rings is his ring and uses, let's say, his earlier legendarium to create salvation for himself. You know, that he needed the early silmarillion to validate the time and effort he spent on the Lord of the Rings because it was, it was such a process. My point is I. I believe there is some rich soil for a paper. You know, that golem, not per se on purpose, but the struggle he had with creating the Lord of the Rings translated into the extraordinary development of the personality of Dan Gollum, who was in the beginning, only a scary little creature under a mountain.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah, it's true. Certainly version one of the Hobbit. He was just. Just a dude. Just a creepy, scary dude living in a cave at the bottom of the mountain. Yeah, that is an interesting question. I'm gonna defer to Sara, and by that I mean I have no idea what to say. So I'm gonna ask my co host to see what her opinion might be.

[Sara]

Okay, well, I have a couple of thoughts. My first thought is to discuss what you were saying about where did Tolkien find the time? Because he had four children and a job and he was writing. I'll. I'll tell you where he found a lot of the time, which is where a lot of men of that age and that time found the time. He had a wife at home who took care of the kids and looked after the house and cooked all the meals and did all the cleaning and all the washing. And that is how men of that time found the time. You know, let's face it, without the woman in the house who was actually doing the child care, he would not have had the time. So let's acknowledge the woman behind the scenes without whom Tolkien would never have had the time. I think that's quite important.

[Alan Sisto]

That is a very excellent point.

[Sara]

Secondly, to your point about Gollum, and I agree with you that Gollum is a fascinating character. And one of the reasons why I think Tolkien develops Gollum so well is because of what Gollum represents. He is the ultimate in ambiguity and liminality, caught with within one poor little creature. He is at all times neither truly good nor truly bad. He's caught between both. He is. I'm not going to say he's a, you know, a lovely person. He isn't. He clearly isn't. He doesn't start out well, but he is instantly taken over by the Ring because the Ring exploits weaknesses and it found Smeargle's weaknesses instantly because there were so many of them. But he always has, right up to the last moment. There is a possibility for redemption. It's right there. He is where he is. Because if we read the story this way of Providence, everything Gollum does is him proving but my instrument in the end, he is a poor creature for whom we should feel pity because he is. He is caught, he is trapped. His life is a misery. Even though when he did have the Ring, his life was a misery, he still believes that if he had the Ring, he would be the Gollum. Gollum the Great eat fish every day. And it's never ever going to be true because the Ring promises everything and delivers nothing. So I think one of the reasons why he's so well developed is because Tolkien was most interested in borderlines. He was most interested in the liminal, in the spaces that neither are nor are not. That's why we have so many underground spaces. That's why we have Lothlorien. That's why we have so many things within the world of Middle Earth that are liminal that hover over borders. And Gollum is the ultimate in hovering over a border. Tolkien was fascinated by that because I think one of the things we can say about Tolkien is he really did quite well understand human nature and that as humans we're neither wholly good nor wholly bad, but often it's our choices that lead us on the path to what actually becomes of us. And it is all about choices. As to your question about whether this is fertile ground, I think there's always fertile ground in looking at a character like Gollum. I would always hesitate about putting equal signs between Tolkien and the character simply because we don't actually know enough about Tolkien to do something like that. We can never know enough about somebody who lived, who died like 50 years ago because we weren't there. We didn't know him. We didn't meet him. We didn't know him as his family did or as his children did, as his friends did. And even your friends don't know you well enough to say, this is the character that you are most like. They can make a guess at it, but they can't always be right. But on the other hand, if you're asking the question, and it's a great question, why did Tolkien develop Gollum so well? That's a good question to go for because that then allows you to look at what we know about Tolkien from letters, from his poetry, from his other writings outside of Middle Earth. That leads you to then look at why such a borderline creature as Gollum becomes so important. So those are my immediate thoughts on what you had to say. Back to you, Alan.

[Alan Sisto]

Those are such amazing thoughts. I don't really have a lot to add, and I'm not saying that because I'm like, well, now I don't have to do anything. That was really fantastic. That was deeply insightful on, like you said, comparing and saying, well, you're most like this character, most like that. But asking the question in the way of why did he develop Gollum with such complexity and such depth, when, I mean, again, maybe it's not that the other characters are simplistic, but it's that Gollum is richly complex and a very difficult character to decipher. I like what you said, though, about the redemption. I know there's. Tolkien himself was asked about, speculating about what if Gollum had remained faithful to Frodo instead of trying to get him killed by Shelob. And at the end of the day, Gollum would have likely tossed himself into the fire with the ring anyway, but willingly. And it's just this idea that, like you said, spabimi shall prove it. My instrument, Gollum was there as an instrument of that, of that fate. But, yeah, all the way to the end, he had that chance all the way, as so many characters in Tolkien do. That's another recurring theme is the idea of there always is a chance to repent and to turn around to do it differently. I like the idea of a paper on that. I would read that paper. I would go to. I would go to that talk at aksamut, you know, 100% drawing connections.

[Erwin]

It is more, you know, where to start and where do you want to end? Because that's the thing with the paper, you know, what do you. What do you want to convey? And this is in my mind for a couple of years now. And this was somehow the perfect moment to at least, you know, plant a seed.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah, well, I'm glad that you did.

[Sara]

The place to start, if you don't mind. A little bit of advice. Because unsolicited advice is incredibly irritating. But if you don't mind a little bit of advice, the place to start is with a question. What is the question you're asking?

[Alan Sisto]

Right.

[Sara]

And if you start there, then that will lead you to your main thought. That will carry you through your paper and end up in your conclusion. Because once you have the idea of what question am I actually asking, then you know what you're looking for in the text to help you to answer that question. So I always try and start with a question. It usually ends up being about 20 questions by the time I've written a whole load of notes. But start with, you know, one.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah, yeah, that's fair.

[Erwin]

Thanks so much.

[Alan Sisto]

All right, no problem. Thank you, Erwin.

[Sara]

That's okay. I'll send my bill for the advice.

[Alan Sisto]

$73.

[Sara]

It'll cost you an entire Jameson's with ice at Oxenmute has that.

[Alan Sisto]

Ah, there we go. Good deal. That's a way to go cheap. Well, folks will come right back after the break with a few more question.

[Sara]

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[Alan Sisto]

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[Sara]

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[Alan Sisto]

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[Sara]

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[Alan Sisto]

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[Sara]

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[Alan Sisto]

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[Sara]

Selection varies by location while supplies last.

[Alan Sisto]

My dad works in B2B marketing. He came by my school for career day and said he was a big roas man. Then he told everyone how much he loved calculating his return on ad spend. My friends still laugh at me to this day. Not everyone gets B2B, but with LinkedIn you'll be able to reach people who do. Get $100 credit on your next ad campaign. Go to LinkedIn.com results to claim your credit. That's LinkedIn.com results. Terms and conditions apply. LinkedIn the place to be to Be Folks, if you enjoy the show, please consider supporting the PPP by joining the Fellowship of the podcast. It's what gives me the ability to work on making this show better every year. When you join, you get the best discord community around and that includes live episode recordings, hangouts every month. You can also get episode postscripts, ad free episodes, free merch, and more.

[Sara]

You can also become part of our Questions After Nightfall episodes or even join us as a guest in the north wing. So Please go to patreon.com prancingponypod to show your support and join the Fellowship of the Podcast.

[Alan Sisto]

You can always help us out by giving us a rating and a review on Apple Podcasts and a rating on Spotify. And please recommend us to your friends. Sara, we've got time for a few questions. It's going to depend on how complicated they are, but let's go ahead and see who still has questions for our second round.

[Sara]

Okay, Sarah's first.

[Demay]

Mine is just a short, sweet, simple one. I've been talking to people about starting to read Lord of the Rings and I tell them, keep your dictionary beside you because you're going to come across words that you probably don't know. What is currently one of your favorite words that Tolkien introduced you to?

[Alan Sisto]

Confusticated be Bother.

[Sara]

I love that.

[Alan Sisto]

There are so many. Oh goodness, so many. I've always liked the intricacies of the word doom in the way that Tolkien uses it. That's one. Because it seems like you know what it means, but then you don't.

[Sara]

So we've got quite a few mentioned in the chat here. Andrea suggests Fae.

[Alan Sisto]

Oh, that's a good one.

[Sara]

Yeah, that's really good. Ooh, and Gleed from Da May. Hot as a gleed the ring.

[Alan Sisto]

Yes, yes.

[Sara]

The cat likes eucatastrophe, which is a great word. That is absolutely true.

[Alan Sisto]

Taste a great word that he coined. I love that. Taking that that Greek prefix U for good and adding it to catastrophe is just fantastic. Were guild is another one. We, we've actually, I'm trying to remember if that conversation has come out yet. There's a conversation we have with the guest. No, it has not come out yet. Where we go even more in depth on the idea of Were Guild. But Matt and I talked about that a number of times during our run through Rohan because it actually came up a few times, including when I think it was King Folquina sent his twin sons to help fight, you know, with Gondor, and they both died. And then, you know, he was sent a great wereguild of gold for their deaths. Goodness. But yes, good advice. By the way, Sarah, have your dictionary handy because, yeah, you will need it. You will definitely need it. And you'll need specialty dictionaries if you're going to do things like read some of his old poetry, the Lay of Laythean, which I've been reading through on today's Tolkien times for, I don't know, months now. My goodness, I can't tell you how many times I've had to look up like, okay, what is this archaic word? But it's fantastic. I love his made up words too, though. It's his Elvish language. Words are fantastic.

[Sara]

Yes. Yeah. I mean, I know you love Quenya. Quenya's your. Your jam. I love Sindarin because it's so Welsh.

[Alan Sisto]

It is. That's fair. It's beautiful. They're both beautiful. Don't get me wrong. I just. For some reason there's something about like Galadriel's Lament in Quenya that I just really enjoy reading. But yeah, if I go there, I'm going to pull up a thousand words. Right. I mean, if we go into Sindarin or Quenya or, you know, even some of the other languages, Khuzdul and Goodness, even some of the ones in the Black speech are fun words. But let's stick with English, I suppose. Would it be fair to say let's also include some Old English in there? Because some of the Rohirric words, you know, we learn a lot about Old English through what we read and learn in Rohan. But yeah. Oh, goodness. So many words to choose from, I think.

[Sara]

I mean, a word that just sings to me, which you'll find ironic when I tell you, is Ainulindale, which is. It just has such a beauty to.

[Alan Sisto]

It, the rhythm and musicality.

[Sara]

Yeah, it's gorgeous, isn't it?

[Alan Sisto]

It really is. Ein Lindele. And that same root for singing that we find in Ainu Lindale, which is the music, is in the name Lindorenand, which was an early name for Lothlorien. And that's translated as vale of the land of the Singers. So another. I love how the roots in his words connect to everything. And if you know a little bit, you can decipher what this other made up word means, because you know those elements.

[Sara]

Yep. If you break down Ainu Lindele, you've got the Ainur at the beginning.

[Alan Sisto]

Yep. Yeah. The creation. Those who were of his thought, you know, the basically the angelic beings and then it's the music of creation. That's fantastic. But yeah, English words alone, there's so many Khat is a simple one that I didn't know what it meant in that context. When the orcs were coming. Burning Rick cotton tree and that a cot was basically a small, simple home. There are all sorts of words like that. There's a couple of words when they talk about the Polenar, Austin Garner. Those are the ones, Osten Garner, that Demay mentions in Chat. Those come to mind. Yeah, just lots of wonderful archaic words or even words that he's using an archaic meaning for. Like they may be words that we know today, but they're, they're totally different than what he means it as. And I really like figuring out, you know, what did he actually mean? But, yeah, fantastic. Great question, Sarah. Thank you for that one.

[Sara]

It was, it was a lovely question.

[Alan Sisto]

And Sarah, I think you said Irwin is up next in the second round after waiting so patiently before, what do you have for us this time?

[Erwin]

Thanks so much. Yeah, this is a much more easy question than. Than before. Which are your favorite three talking tribute books? These can change depending on new publications and shifting in personal interest, etc. For mine, for my person, for myself, they are at the moment, number one, Flora of Middle Earth, number two, Atlas of Middle Earth by Karen Wynn Fonstead, and number three, talking Faith, which I just recently discovered, but I really, really enjoy. I'm not a Catholic or a religious person myself, but Dawkins Faith by Holy Ordway is right up there for me. So for you, and then, Sarah, what's. What are your three tribute books, so to say.

[Sara]

So are we talking about books about Tolkien, like about Middle Earth or.

[Erwin]

Yeah, or like Ferling Flieger, Splintered Light, you know, which splinter light fantastic as well. So your top three.

[Alan Sisto]

I'll let you go first. Yeah, that's a good one, though. It's a great question.

[Sara]

Anything by Verlin Flger is going to take up the entirety of my top three. So we're going to set Vern to one side.

[Alan Sisto]

That's fair, that's fair.

[Sara]

Okay. Well, one of the most useful that I've really, really enjoyed having my hands on. Well, apart from anything by Wayne and Christina, of course.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah, yeah.

[Sara]

Right. I mean, I'm going to set them to one side as well because actually they would fill my top three very, very quickly. But Robert Foster's Complete Guide is really good. Yeah, I very much enjoy having that because it's, you know, it's a handy resource. So that's something. Oh, I like John Rateliff's History of the Hobbit. That is very good. I've got a million up here on my book.

[Alan Sisto]

That's the thing. There's so many.

[Sara]

There are so many. I don't know how I would choose. I mean, if you're going to. All right, I'm going to choose my favorite work of scholarship about Tolkien and that is the collection of essays called Perilous and Fair, which is absolutely superb.

[Alan Sisto]

There are so many. If I set Flieger aside, then I also have to set Garth and Chippy aside, because the other two, for whom everything they touch seems to be golden, whether it's Tolkien and the Great War or the worlds of J.R.R. tolkien from Garth, or whether it's the Road to Middle Earth or Author of the Century from Tom Shippey. Splintered light music interrupted from Flieger. So if I'm only gonna top three, and I've already named. Okay, I'm not going to set anybody aside. I'm going to say the three that I just find are totally indispensable. Wayne Hammond and Christina Sculls, reader's companion to the Lord of the Rings. Absolutely indispensable.

[Sara]

It is, yeah.

[Alan Sisto]

Oh, there's so many. Okay, fine. I will set Flieger aside, I will set Garth aside, I will set Shippy aside, because those three are, for me, just absolutely indispensable. I'm going to throw a new one in there because I was so challenged when I read it. I'm going to say Pity Power and Tolkien's Ring. Tom Hillman, from Tom Hillman, who is actually a frequent guest here at the Questions after Nightfall. That blew me away.

[Sara]

It's a great book.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah, it really, really is.

[Sara]

So accessible as well.

[Alan Sisto]

It is, yeah. It really reminds me a lot of actually of Dr. Fleeger's writings. I mean, it really has that same tone and that same sort of. Here are two paragraphs that you're reading along and everything's okay. I see this, I see this. And then there's a concluding sentence, and you, you're like, where did that come from? You know, and it's stunning. And it's like just jaw dropping observations.

[Sara]

It is, yeah. And I'm just going to jump in here because Tom Hillman is the only other person who, so far I can find who has picked up on Tolkien's one use of the word ring. Restlessness.

[Alan Sisto]

Oh, that's good.

[Sara]

And he didn't go into it in a lot of detail, but he picked up on it and he had something to say about it. And it was something that I wrote about when I was doing the Tolkien and psychology conference. But Tom really picked up on something that I. I feel was just a very, very subtle little thing that was. It was mentioned once in the history of Middle Earth. And that's it.

[Alan Sisto]

Wow, that is a deep cut. Okay. And then as much as I love Fonstad's Atlas, I kind of want that to be my third choice, but it really can't. Be. Oh, there's so many. I can't choose three. That's troubling. I can't choose three. I'm going to say another Hammond and Skull, or Skull and Hammond. In this case, Creation, the three volume poetry set that just came out.

[Sara]

Oh, yeah.

[Alan Sisto]

Just wow. Eye opening again. So those would be my three for now. Those my three among 12 that I named. I'm a cheater. I absolutely did not stay within the confines of the question. Great question, though. And I hope that that leads people to look into the vast array of books out there. Whether they're reference books like the Complete Guide to Middle Earth or like the Atlas, whether they're biographies, like Tolkien and the Great War, whether they're scholarly approaches, whether they're some of the amazing art books. There's just so much. I mean, we didn't even touch on that. Tolkien, Maker of Middle Earth, the book that the Bodleian put out from that exhibit, that's another fantastic resource. But there's so much. And folks, you just will never run out of books on that.

[Sara]

No, the trouble was definitely picking a top three.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah, I can barely pick a top ten. All right, Sara, who do we have up next here in the second round?

[Sara]

Okay, well, thank you for that, Erwin. And next we have Nakat.

[Alan Sisto]

Nakat. Welcome back again.

[Nakat]

Okay, my question is a silly one this time. What would be Feanor's favorite video game other than Candy Crime?

[Sara]

Grand Theft Auto.

[Alan Sisto]

Grand Theft Auto. I love that. Oh, boy. Well, it's not going to be called of duty because he doesn't really have a sense of duty or obligation. Is there a game about somebody who loves their father and nobody else?

[Sara]

That's a weird story.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah. Grand Theft Auto actually does come to mind. Grand Theft Swan Boat is the long expected prequel to that. Yeah, I think that's a fair story. Yeah, for sure.

[Sara]

Olivia wants to add on to that.

[Alan Sisto]

Oh, yeah. I think we're going to have a lot of rankings here.

[Sara]

Minecraft. Oh, Candy Crush. The Jewel version says Nakat Tetris.

[Alan Sisto]

Anything that he can get the cheat codes to would also work for Feanor. Yeah. Any sort of. Yeah. Crafting game, certainly.

[Sara]

Yeah. It's just my mind went straight to Alqualande and the pinching of the boats.

[Alan Sisto]

I totally love that. Yeah. Come on, give me the boats. I gotta go chase this guy. Yeah. You know what? Maybe you need to take a break and think before you chase this guy. I don't know. I'm taking your boats. I'm killing as many of your people as I needed to take your boats. And then I'm just gonna burn your boats just because. Exactly. That was one of the most. Just kind of heart crushing lines when his son asks him. So who are we going to send back to go get the rest of our people with these stolen ships? None and none. Right. None and none. I know I'm the king of these people, but screw them all. Let them along and let them walk. Oh, some king you are. All right. Wow. Grand Theft auto. You win that one, Sarah. Great. Great.

[Sara]

Thank you. I will take that crown.

[Alan Sisto]

You should. All right, who do we have up next?

[Sara]

Okay, well, thank you for that fun question, the cat. And next up, we have Da Mai.

[Alan Sisto]

Ah, Da May.

[Olivia]

All right, I have here my backup question. Ashley. This has been my backup question for a long time. So the ring must be delivered into the fires of Mount Doom according to the Council of Elrond. That was their great conclusion. Now, Elrond was the only person who'd been there before, the only one who knew the way. So why didn't he lead the Fellowship? It's like I. I heard the glorfindel thing. Like, he's too sparkly. But why are you not going, dude?

[Sara]

Far too important.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah, I. I'm. I. I can't go on this. This is why I have underlings. I'm.

[Sara]

Yeah.

[Alan Sisto]

I am Lord Elrond. What part of Lord have you forgotten?

[Sara]

I can't sneak through the countryside unseen. I will be wearing royal purple and going through on my destrier.

[Alan Sisto]

I am always glorious. I cannot hide. I mean, practically speaking, I assume it's because he knows what his strengths are. And perhaps he's no longer. He's aware that he's no longer really a Martial leader. I mean, yes, he was capable of being in battle and being successful in battle, and he was the banner bearer for Gil Galad. So, you know, I mean, there's no doubt he was capable of these kinds of things, but that was 3,000 years ago. And since then, he's been a Librarian. So. I mean, no disrespect to Librarians, but I don't know that I want one of them leading the company into Mordor.

[Sara]

But also, if the quest to destroy the Ring fails, then you're going to need some serious generals.

[Alan Sisto]

Yes, you do.

[Sara]

Left behind to try and sort out the mess that will ensue.

[Alan Sisto]

Exactly. This is a mission for captains, not generals. And he is a general. Right. He's more of a strategic mind than a tactical mind. And taking a small unit of troops into the field, plus, of Course, as Nakat brings up in the text, if he does leave, does he take Vilya with him? If he does, that is a high risk gamble to have Vilya leave Rivendell and possibly be taken by Sauron.

[Sara]

And doesn't that leave Rivendell with a lot less protection?

[Alan Sisto]

Exactly. If he takes Vilya with him, then Rivendell is no longer protected. If he doesn't, if he leaves Vilya behind, who's going to wield it with the power that Elrond can wield it in order to protect Rivendell while he's gone?

[Sara]

You could as well ask why Galadriel doesn't say, you know what? I'll join your company. Because after all, it was Galadriel who tore down Dol Guldur.

[Alan Sisto]

That is true. We know how strong she is.

[Sara]

Absolutely. But is she going to leave Lothlorien and take Nenya with her?

[Alan Sisto]

And yet Da Mae points out Gandalf had his ring with him. So there is a gamble there.

[Sara]

But Gandalf's stewardship was of the whole world, not of one specific place. Whereas if Galadriel had left Lothlorien and taken Nenya with him, her. That would leave Lothlorien unprotected.

[Alan Sisto]

Exactly. Dol Guldur takes Lothlorien in three moves. You know, I mean, it's. It's over pretty much. And I think that's the point. Because both of their rings are tied directly to their use of those rings is tied directly to their kingdoms, to Rivendell and to Lothlorien. And of course I said kingdoms. But that's not what they are to their realms. And either of them leave. Then those realms become susceptible to the enemy because either they take the ring with them and there's no protection or there's nobody behind to wield the ring powerfully enough. Though one wonders why doesn't she say, you know what with Gandalf dead, why don't you take Celeborn with you?

[Sara]

Yeah, throw Celeborn under the bus.

[Alan Sisto]

I mean, he's not doing me a whole lot of good. I'll tell you what. I'll trade you Celeborn for Gimli.

[Sara]

Well, I'll tell you what that reminds me of. That wonderful bit in the tale of Galadriel and Celeborn from Unfinished Tales. Right? This is where Sauron is so great became his hold on the Miradain that at length he persuaded them to revolt against Galadriel and Celeborn to seize power in Eregion. And that was at some time between 1350 and 1400. The Second Age Galadriel thereupon left Eregion passed through Khazad Dun to Lorinand, taking with her Amroth and Celebrian. But Celeborn would not enter the Mansions of the Dwarves and he remained behind in Eregion. Disregarded by Celebrimbor.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah, disregarded by Celebrimbor.

[Sara]

He is just the pretty thing on Galadriel's arm.

[Alan Sisto]

And that was when Amroth was actually their son as opposed to the king of Lorian. That's boy. We're going to get into the history of Gladriel and Celebor next season and that is going to be a lot of fun to look at the various versions of that story. But yeah, I, I, I think that Elrond's choice to not go is one of protecting Rivendell, having a backup plan, knowing his strengths versus his weaknesses. I do think that if Merry and Pippin had not gone, I do think he would have considered sending Eladan and Elrohir. You know, he talked about there may be some in my household that would be, you know, good to send. I would not be shocked if those had been his choices had Merry and Pippin not been. But and they would have been pretty darn powerful to have along the way. But without those swords of Westerness, the Witch King doesn't get what's coming to him.

[Sara]

Spabimi.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah, and it's all spabimmy. I can't tell you how many times we've done these crazy questions that are just speculative and you think, well, they're simple questions, but then they have crazy answers like, well, what if Gandalf actually died and wasn't resurrected? And all the things that are tied into that. You're like, oh man, the whole story. I mean, all these things change. And it doesn't even matter that any of those things change because they're all hoes because Frodo never took off the ring on Amon hen and Sauron got it in hours because there was nobody to say take off the ring, you idiot. So I do love how all it takes is just pulling on one thread like, what if this, what if that, what if this? And it's so much fun. But that's a very good question. I will say it's very appropriate that that was our last question for the day. So Demay opened us up and she gave us our last question. We are done, folks. That wraps it up for another episode of the the Prancing Pony Podcast, but please be sure to join me and Sarah again next week as we start our run in this season. Getting back to the appendices to the Lord of the Rings for everybody's favorite rom com, Aragorn and Arwen.

[Sara]

Did you forget the ending already to that tale?

[Alan Sisto]

Maybe I just have a morbid sense of humor. I don't know.

[Sara]

Okay, well, anyway, I'm sure we will have things to say about the Tale of Aragorn I'm hearing when we get.

[Alan Sisto]

The capital T and the capital S. Yes, good.

[Sara]

I'm glad they came over. Okay, Allan and I want to thank the members of Team PPP Editor Jordan Runnells Barleyman Becca Davis, Social Media manager Casey Hilsey, Event and Patreon community coordinator Katie McKenna, graphic artist Megan Collins, and website guru Phil Dean.

[Alan Sisto]

Please take a minute to check out the prancingponypodcast.com that's where you'll find show notes, outtakes, Prancing Pony ponderings, and our online storefront where you can get PPP merch, including the all new art from Megan.

[Sara]

You'll also want to visit our library page. The Prancing Pony Podcast is, after all, a podcast about the books. So if you're interested in a book we've mentioned on the show, you'll find a link for it in our library. And we do get a small amount of compensation when you make your purchase. And we thank you for that.

[Alan Sisto]

Indeed we do. We also want to thank our patrons at the Cirdan's contribution, several of whom are here today. I'll start with demay in Alaska, Chad in Texas, Lance in New Jersey, Paul in Colorado, Joseph in Michigan, Kathy from North Carolina, Carlos in California, Brian in the uk, Jerry from Washington, Joe in Washington, Irwin from the Netherlands, Ben in Minnesota, Anthony in Texas, Zaksu in Illinois, Sarah in New Jersey, Joshua in Massachusetts, Lucy in Texas, Keith in Alabama and Eric in Texas.

[Sara]

And there's also Carson in Oklahoma, Vivian in California, James in Massachusetts, Ann in Kentucky, Sean in New Jersey, Mason in California, Maureen from Massachusetts, Olivia in London, Robert in Arizona, Nick in Wisconsin, Lewis in South Carolina, Thomas in Germany, Craig in California, Bailey in Texas, Kevin in Massachusetts, Julian Washington, Bruce in California, Joe in Maryland, Nathan in Arizona and Kevin in Pennsylvania. Thank you all so very much for your support.

[Alan Sisto]

Indeed. Thank you.

[Sara]

Make sure you don't miss any episodes of the Prancing Pony Podcast. Subscribe now through Spotify, Apple Podcasts, Amazon Music, or your favorite podcast app.

[Alan Sisto]

And one last thing. As always, don't forget to send your thoughts, comments and most of all, your really difficult questions to Sara. Send your easy ones to baran@the prancingpony podcast.com.

[Sara]

Oh thank you Alan.

[Alan Sisto]

It's my faith in you.

[Sara]

If you want your voice literally heard, well, just send us audio of your question, visit pod inbox.com prancingponypod and record your question for us. And please be sure to still email the question to Barleyman, though.

[Alan Sisto]

That's right. Now. Even though Bar's been a lot more reliable lately, there is still a lot of mail to sort through. We'll try to get to you just as soon as we're able. As always, though, this has been far too short a time to spend among such excellent and admirable listeners.

[Sara]

But until next time, bye.

[Alan Sisto]

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