369 – Party Like it’s (Third Age) 1999

Summary

The Prancing Pony Podcast: Episode 369 – "Party Like it’s (Third Age) 1999"

Release Date: April 27, 2025

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Introduction

In Episode 369 of The Prancing Pony Podcast, hosts Alan Sisto and Sara delve deep into the rich history of Tolkien’s Dwarven lore, particularly focusing on Durin’s Folk as chronicled in Appendix A of The Lord of the Rings. This episode, titled "Party Like it’s (Third Age) 1999," combines scholarly analysis with engaging discussions, providing both new insights and delightful banter for Tolkien enthusiasts.

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Philology Fair: The Arkenstone and Its Linguistic Roots

[03:25]
Before diving into the main narrative, the hosts introduce the segment "Philology Fair," where they explore the linguistic intricacies within Tolkien’s works. In this episode, Alan and Sara analyze the Arkenstone, questioning whether it holds the same significance as a Silmaril.

Notable Quote:
Sara [04:00]: "Now, later, when Bilbo finds it, we read it was the Arkenstone, the Heart of the Mountain."

Alan [05:15]: "The authors of the Ring of Words actually point to a 10th century manuscript known as the Rushworth Gospels, where Eortnan Stan is used in the biblical instruction to not cast your pearls before swine."

They discuss Tolkien’s mastery in reviving Old English words and integrating them seamlessly into Middle-earth, enhancing the linguistic authenticity of his legendarium.

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Reading from Appendix A: Durin’s Folk

[02:23]
Sara begins the primary reading from Appendix A, narrating the storied history of Durin the Deathless and his lineage. This segment covers the rise of Khazad Dum (Moria), the Dwarves' prosperity through mithril mining, and the eventual downfall caused by their confrontation with a Balrog.

Notable Quote:
Sara [06:22]: "Durin is the name that the Dwarves used for the eldest of the seven fathers of their race and the ancestor of all the kings of the Longbeards."

[07:45]
Alan adds scholarly commentary, referencing Douglas A. Anderson’s Annotated Hobbit, which connects the term "Longbeards" to the historic Lombards, highlighting Tolkien’s penchant for embedding real-world linguistic and historical elements into his fantasy world.

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Dwarven Origins and Beliefs

[17:19]
The discussion shifts to the origins of the Dwarves, touching upon Aulë’s creation of the Dwarves and their subsequent enslavement by Ilúvatar. The hosts explore the Dwarves' belief in reincarnation, particularly the notion that Durin the Deathless returns in each generation.

Notable Quote:
Sara [22:34]: "But not every descendant was a Durin. I think that's very interesting."

Alan and Sara ponder the plausibility and cultural implications of such beliefs, considering the lack of photographic evidence and the dwarven methods of naming based on character traits rather than appearance.

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Moria: Wealth and Doom

[27:31]
The narrative continues with a description of Moria’s wealth, primarily its abundant mithril deposits. However, this prosperity leads to over-mining, disturbing ancient evils within the mountain.

Notable Quote:
Sara [28:19]: "But Azog tells him to leave it, and he tosses him a few worthless coins for just added insult."

They debate whether the Balrog was awakened by the Dwarves' greed or released by Sauron’s manipulations, ultimately favoring the latter for its narrative consistency.

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Establishment of Erebor and the Rise of Smaug

[39:41]
Thorin’s migration to Erebor and the subsequent discovery of the Arkenstone mark a significant turning point. The hosts discuss the political and economic implications of Erebor’s founding, its flourishing trade with nearby men, and the eventual incursion of Smaug, the dragon, leading to the devastation of the Lonely Mountain.

Notable Quote:
Sara [40:07]: "Was he wearing a raspberry beret? That's what I want to know."

Amidst their scholarly discourse, Alan and Sara inject humor, likening Thorin’s journey and the establishment of Erebor to modern-day party scenarios, enhancing the episode’s engaging atmosphere.

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The Battle of Azanulbizar: A Pyrrhic Victory

[74:19]
A significant portion of the episode is dedicated to recounting the Battle of Azanulbizar, a six-year-long war driven by vengeance against Azog. The hosts detail the strategic maneuvers, the heavy casualties on both sides, and the eventual intervention of the dwarves from the Iron Hills, tipping the scales in favor of the Dwarven forces.

Notable Quote:
Alan [76:09]: "What do you think, by the way, about this almost spoilery statement at the beginning of the description of the battle? We get the name of it right at the memory of which the Orcs still shudder and the Dwarves weep."

They emphasize the battle’s grim nature, highlighting the futility and enormous loss, which underscores the theme of vengeance leading to unbalanced suffering.

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Listener Interaction: Are Dwarves Inherently Greedy?

[101:04]
In response to a listener’s question from Connecticut, Alan and Sara tackle the stereotype of Dwarves being inherently greedy and materialistic. They acknowledge Tolkien’s initial portrayal of Dwarves with traits of greed but commend his later development of more nuanced and multifaceted Dwarven characters, such as Gimli and Thorin.

Notable Quote:
Sara [101:14]: "But when it comes to Thorin, Thorin Oakenshield you know, when he's denying the people a share of Smaug's gold hoard it's because he's. He has succumbed to dragon sickness."

This segment encourages listeners to view Tolkien’s Dwarves beyond stereotypes, recognizing their complexity and the influence of external factors like the Rings of Power on their behavior.

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Exploring Wereguild and Its Implications

[95:10]
The hosts take a sidebar to explore the concept of "Wereguild," explaining its origins in Old English as a form of legal reparation or compensation for murder or injury. They discuss how this concept plays into the narrative, particularly in the context of Dwarven honor and vengeance.

Notable Quote:
Alan [96:08]: "It's typically a set sum, often codified into law."

Sara and Alan delve into historical parallels and their representations in Middle-earth, adding depth to the listeners' understanding of Dwarven societal norms.

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Conclusion

Episode 369 of The Prancing Pony Podcast offers an in-depth exploration of Dwarven history, linguistics, and cultural traits within Tolkien’s Middle-earth. Through meticulous readings, thoughtful analysis, and engaging dialogue, Alan and Sara provide listeners with a comprehensive understanding of Durin’s Folk, the intricacies of the Arkenstone, and the tragic consequences of vengeance-driven conflicts. The episode not only enriches the lore but also challenges listeners to look beyond established stereotypes, celebrating the complexity and richness of Tolkien’s creations.

Don't Miss Next Week:
In the subsequent episode, the tale continues with Thrine and the enigmatic Ring, promising further revelations and discussions about the fate of Khazad Dum and the Dwarven legacy.

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Notable Quotes with Timestamps

• Sara [04:00]: "It shone like silver in the firelight, like water in the sun, like snow under the stars, like rain upon the moon."
• Alan [05:15]: "The authors of the Ring of Words actually point to a 10th century manuscript known as the Rushworth Gospels, where Eortnan Stan is used in the biblical instruction to not cast your pearls before swine."
• Sara [22:34]: "But not every descendant was a Durin. I think that's very interesting."
• Alan [76:09]: "What do you think, by the way, about this almost spoilery statement at the beginning of the description of the battle? We get the name of it right at the memory of which the Orcs still shudder and the Dwarves weep."
• Sara [101:14]: "But when it comes to Thorin, Thorin Oakenshield you know, when he's denying the people a share of Smaug's gold hoard it's because he's. He has succumbed to dragon sickness."

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Join the Conversation

Engage with the Prancing Pony Podcast community on Facebook, Reddit, Twitter, and other social media platforms. Share your thoughts, ask questions, and connect with fellow Tolkien enthusiasts as Alan and Sara continue their exploration of Middle-earth.

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Disclaimer: This summary is based on the provided transcript of Episode 369 and aims to encapsulate the key discussions and insights shared by the hosts. For a complete experience, listeners are encouraged to tune into the full episode.

Transcript

[Alan Sisto]

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[Sara]

Well, fortunately, those things lie far back behind our days, so let's say little of them here.

[Alan Sisto]

Deal.

[Sara]

Folks, pull up a bench in the common room and join us. I'm Sara, the shield Maiden of Rohan, and I'm here with the man of the west who will have to live a lot longer to be known far and wide as Alan the Deathless. Alan Sisto Alan the Deathless let's just.

[Alan Sisto]

Say that if an heir is born in my house so like to me that he gets my name. All I can really say is I'm so sorry. Really. Folks, join us as we begin a five episode look just a little closer to the ground at the Dwarves, starting with the story of Durin's Folk found in Appendix A.

[Sara]

Now, being myself a little closer to the ground also, I'm feeling quite comfortable with this topic. All right, folks, no matter how you arrived, you're all welcome Here in the common room at the Prancing Pony Podcast, we are reading and talking our way through Middle Earth with plenty of speculation and some truly terrible joking along the way.

[Alan Sisto]

We do love our deep dives into the lore though, discussing our favorite themes and a whole lot more, but we.

[Sara]

Do try to keep it light and fun, just like a couple of friends chatting at the pub. And we're glad you've joined us.

[Alan Sisto]

I'm sure you'll be glad you joined as well. But before we get to tonight's chapter discussion, it's time for fan favorite Philology Fair. So in tonight's episode we're going to read about how Thrayen arrives in Erebor, becomes the King under the Mountain, and finds the great jewel, the Arkenstone, Heart of the Mountain. Going back to the Hobbit, we read that it was like a globe with a thousand facets. It shone like silver in the firelight, like water in the sun, like snow under the stars, like rain upon the moon.

[Sara]

Now, later, when Bilbo finds it, we read it was the Arkenstone, the Heart of the Mountain. So Bilbo guessed from Thorin's description. But indeed there could not be two such gems, even in so marvellous a hoard, even in all the world. Ever. As he climbed, the same white gleam had shone before him and drawn his feet towards it. Slowly it grew to a little globe of pallid light. Now, as he came near, it was tinged with a flickering sparkle of many colours at the surface, reflected and splintered from the wavering light of his torch. At last he looked down upon it, and he caught his breath. The great jewel shone before his feet of its own inner light, and yet cut and fashioned by the dwarves who had dug it from the heart of the mountain long ago. It took all light that fell upon it and changed it into 10,000 sparks of white radiance, shot with glints of the rainbow.

[Alan Sisto]

Man, that's beautiful.

[Sara]

Gorgeous. And some of that description, especially the idea that it shone of its own inner light, have led folks to ask is The Arkenstone, a silmaril, specifically the one that accompanied Maedhros as he hurled himself into a fiery chasm.

[Alan Sisto]

That's right. And that question is closely tied to the word nerdery behind Arkenstone, which is the whole point of a philology fair, and which I am finally getting to, I promise. So, if we go to the Ring of Words, which we've looked at a number of times on the show, we read that the name of the Arkenstone is one of many extinct Old English words which Tolkien revived, though he did not simply lift Old English words from their context, but fitted them into their new surroundings by giving them modernized spellings.

[Sara]

Yeah, and of course, he didn't stop there, did he?

[Alan Sisto]

No.

[Sara]

He would ensure these modern spellings reflect the patterns of change and pronunciation which can be seen in those words which did survive into modern English, so that they have linguistic authenticity representing the spellings that the extinct words would have had if they had survived in continuous use through the centuries.

[Alan Sisto]

Because, of course, that's what Tolkien would do.

[Sara]

Exactly.

[Alan Sisto]

I mean, linguistic authenticity is at the core of everything he did. So what is the Old English word that Tolkien used as the basis for the modern English word Arkenstone? Well, that word was Eorknanstan, meaning precious stone. The orknen part is what means precious. And Stan, not surprisingly, is stone. The authors of the Ring of Words actually point to a 10th century manuscript known as the Rushworth Gospels, where Eortnan Stan is used in the biblical instruction to not cast your pearls before swine, where Eorkdanstan, precious stone, represents pearls. It's very interesting. Now, the Ring of Words goes on to explain the transition to the modernized form Arkenstone by comparing it to a word that has survived into modern English, the word harken, like hearken to me. Right. They say that Tolkien rather liked the spelling hearken without that form first e. So H A, R, K, E, N, which the Oxford English Dictionary says is more regular and of earlier standing. Now, that word hearken without the e, just like the Arken part of the Arkenstone comes from Old English, haorchneon. And the Ring of Words explains that the last three letters, the I, a, n, that Ian suffix, are an inflectional ending that regularly disappears before Modern times, just as the same ending, the an ending of Eorknon would have done. The AOR to R transition, is also a regular transition from Old English to Modern English. And so Eorknan Stan becomes ark and stone.

[Sara]

Ooh, fantastic stuff, isn't it? Just amazing. And where this gets especially interesting is that at the time that Tolkien was writing the Hobbit, early to mid-1930s, he was also working on an Old English version of the Annals of Valinor. It's in the Shaping of Middle Earth, which is volume four of the History of Middle Earth. And while there's not a lot there, there is one thing we discover. The Silmarils are Eorklan Stanas, leading the authors of the Ring of Words to conclude that quote. Although the Arkenstone has no obvious link to the wider history or mythology of Middle Earth, its name does make a hidden connection with the tales of the Elder Days.

[Alan Sisto]

That is correct. And in the History of the Hobbit, John Ratliff suggests that Tolkien wanted to make this hidden connection, but that the connection does not establish that they're the same jewel. And I. I'm absolutely 100% on board with him on this. I love the way he puts this. And. And Sean and I talked about this all the way back in episode 43 of the PPP in season one. Ratliff writes, by avoiding the use of the word silmaril and instead using the ingenious and agreeable synonym Arkenstone, Tolkien got to draw on his rich homebrew mythology, which by the early 1930s had developed a remarkable depth and sophistication, without worrying what the effect of his new story would be on that mythology.

[Sara]

So, in other words, Tolkien was using his own rich homebrew mythology as a source of inspiration. Yep. Sort of like how the King of the Woodland Realm in the Hobbit is quite clearly modeled after Thingol in the First Age, so. Well, the Arkenstone isn't a Silmaril, but the Silmaril certainly inspired it.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah, certainly. At least in terms of name. Right. I mean, it's. I love the way he went about developing the change in the name so that it fits in Modern English from an Old English word. Like, he could point to the etymology of Arkenstone as though it were real.

[Sara]

Yes. Yeah, it's beautifully done, isn't it? He's such a word nerd, and you've got to love how he's done this. It's not just the name, though, that kind of connects with the Silmaril. I mean, look at the description of the jewel.

[Alan Sisto]

Shining with its own light is the thing that first grabs your eye, like, wait a minute. That's pretty amazing. That sounds like a Silmaril.

[Sara]

Yes, it does. And it's not just shining with its own light, but with A light that is absolutely beautiful.

[Alan Sisto]

Yes.

[Sara]

So you know, it shines like silver in the firelight, like water in the sun. Like snow under the stars, like rain upon the moon.

[Alan Sisto]

That's beautiful. Snow under the stars is one of the most amazing things to see. And it's glittering, it's glowing. The passage you read talking about the white radiance shot with glints of the rainbow. This is just fantastic. And it really does put you in mind of the description of the Silmarils. There is one line in that passage, the one that you read, that for me at least sort of solidifies the fact that it is not. And it's the fact that it was cut and fashioned by the dwarves.

[Sara]

Yes.

[Alan Sisto]

Because nothing on earth could have cut or fashioned the Silmaril beyond, you know, the way it was crafted by Feanor. But plus of course they would have had to do that with like robot arms and such because they are definitely of mortal flesh and would not have survived the Hallowing as the Baron did. But it is just an interesting question. It's a really valid question.

[Sara]

It is. You can see why people would ask it 100%.

[Alan Sisto]

And how appealing would it be in a story perspective to think that this is the same one that that Maedharas threw into, you know, the hole in the ground along with himself. But then you also think about just how far that would have been because that would have been, you know, and far west end of Beleriand before the destruction of that part of the continent. And to find it in Erebor just doesn't make much sense.

[Sara]

Yeah. The other connection that's fascinating though is the response of people to a Silmaril or to the Arkenstone. So of course you've got Feanor and his sons who are all like Silmarils and we will make ill advised vows and do all this and that and people die because of the Silmarils. And everything is about recovering the Silmarils. Think about Thorin and how he responds to the Arkenstone. The Arkenstone is mine. It is mine. You may not take it. I don't care what else is in here. The Arkenstone belongs to me. It's a similar kind of greed for a particular thing. It's. I think it's just a fascinating little extra that tells you that yes, the Arkenstone is not a Silmaril, but it's having a really similar effect on someone who believes it belongs to him and no one else.

[Alan Sisto]

It really does.

[Sara]

Right. Well that was a fascinating bit of Word Nerdery, Alan. But how about we start with the first reading?

[Alan Sisto]

I think we should. And we're moving on to the Dwarves now. It's a very big shift from Aragorn and Arwen. They're a little bit shorter. Appendix A3 Durin's folk concerning the beginning of the Dwarves. Strange tales are told both by the Eldar and by the Dwarves themselves. But since these things lie far back beyond our days little is said of them here. Durin is the name that the Dwarves used for the eldest of the seven fathers of their race and the ancestor of all the kings of the Longbeards. He slept alone until in the deeps of time and the awakening of that people he came to Azanulbizar. And in the caves above Keled Zaram in the east of the Misty Mountains he made his dwelling where afterwards were the minds of Moria, renowned in song. There he lived so long that he was known far and wide as Durin the Deathless. Yet in the end he died before the elder days had passed and his tomb was in Khazad Dum. But his line never failed and five times an heir was born in his house so like to his forefather that he received the name of Durin. He was indeed held by the Dwarves to be the Deathless that returned. For they have many strange tales and beliefs concerning themselves and their fate in the world. After the end of the First Age the power and wealth of Khazad Dum was much increased for it was enriched by many people and much lore and craft. When the ancient cities of Nogrod and Belegost in the Blue Mountains were ruined at the breaking of Thangorodrim the power of Moria endured throughout the dark years and the dominion of Sauron. For though Eregion was destroyed and the gates of Moria were shut the halls of Khazad Dum were too deep and strong and filled with a people too numerous and valiant for Sauron to conquer from without. Thus its wealth remained long unravished, though its people began to dwindle. It came to pass that in the middle of the Third Age Durin was again its king, being the sixth of that name. The power of Sauron, servant of Morgoth was then again growing in the world. Though the shadow in the forest that looked towards Moria was not yet known for what it was all evil things were stirring. The dwarves delved deep at that time, seeking beneath Barazinbar for mithril the mettle beyond price that was becoming yearly ever Harder to win. Thus they roused from sleep a thing of terror that flying from Thangorodrim, had lain hidden at the foundations of the earth since the coming of the host of the West. A Balrog of Morgoth, Durin, was slain by it. And the year after Nayan I his son and then the glory of Moria passed and its people were destroyed or fled far away.

[Sara]

Wonderful. What a great start, isn't it?

[Alan Sisto]

It really is. Yeah. It covers a big span of time, but it does it in such an engaging way that you're immediate immediately stuck into this story.

[Sara]

Yes, absolutely. It's just one of those things about how the the appendices are so well worth diving into because there's so much to tell us.

[Alan Sisto]

So many stories.

[Sara]

Yes, yes, yes, absolutely. So for this we begin with a vague mention of the beginnings of the dwarves and how there are differing tales of their origins. Oh, you are not kidding. If you go to the peoples of Middle Earth, you will see that and while the text says little is said of them here, we'd be doing you a disservice kind. We would never wish to do you if we didn't at least do a quick review. All of that rhymed, Alan.

[Alan Sisto]

Indeed. And wonderful rhyming. And I mean it. Anybody want a peanut? In the legendarium, we learn most about the origin of dwarves in the chapter of Ale and Yavana in the Silmarillion. Essentially, Ali created them because he was impatient for the children of Iluvitar to come along. He wanted people to love and to teach, and he made them strong and resilient because of the threats of military Middle Earth at the time.

[Sara]

Yeah. Iluvatar confronted him, since Aule lacked the authority and the ability to create sentient beings. And Aule repented and offered to destroy his children. Iluvatar stopped him, gave the dwarves actual life, but then put them to sleep until after the awakening of the elves. And the stories about the dwarves, including the appendix we're about to look at, focus on the line of Durin, the father of the Longbeards, who slept alone under Mount Gundabad at the north end of the Misty Mountains. But we learn a little bit about the other six fathers of the dwarves in the peoples of Middle Earth of Dwarves and Men.

[Alan Sisto]

That's right. And we're going to cover a lot more of that in a couple of episodes.

[Sara]

Yep.

[Alan Sisto]

For now we're just going to mention that two of the other fathers of the Dwarves were put to rest in the Eredluin. They're the ones that founded the Lines of the Broadbeams and the Firebeards of Nograd and Belegost. The other four were in two pairs out in Rhun, and they founded lines called the Iron Fists, Stiff Beards, Black Locks and Stone Foots.

[Sara]

Now, the Elves, it is said, believe that when Dwarves died, they returned to the earth and the stone of which they were made. While Dwarves believe Aule sets their souls apart and they will serve him in rebuilding Arda after the last battle. So there's at least one of the differences in the strange tales told by the Eldar and the Dwarves.

[Alan Sisto]

Exactly. Now that was really the Tldr version. We tried to give you a very compressed sort of brief overview because we're definitely going to be getting into some of those strange tales the Dwarves have about their own history as we cover the Dwarves over the next five episodes. But we're going to move on for now. The text, after glossing over their origin, moves directly to Durin, as it should. I mean, after all, this is the appendix on Durin's folk, right?

[Sara]

He's said to be the oldest of the Seven Fathers, therefore the first of the Dwarves. And this is where we get the mention of his line, the Longbeards.

[Alan Sisto]

Yes, and there's an interesting side note here because Douglas A. Anderson in the Annotated Hobbit says that in calling the Dwarves Longbeards, Tolkien is probably recalling the Lombards. Longbeards is Old English, Long bearden, Germanic people known for their ferocity.

[Sara]

And though we know he slept alone under Mount Gundabad from that same essay of Dwarves and Men, the text here tells us where he ended up after he woke up, which is Azanulbizar. And that's the Khuzdul name for the valley, also known as the Dimril Dale.

[Alan Sisto]

Right now that's the one that's on the east side of the Misty Mountains. I know that for folks whose primary experience of the Dwarves is the Lord of the Rings, we think of the the Gate of Moria as the doors of Durin on the west side. That's not where Durin entered Moria. He entered it from the east side in the valley known as the Dimril Dale or as a Nol Bazaar. That valley is the source of the Silverlode. And it's also home to the Mirror Mirror. Speaking of the Mirror Mirror, that's the common speech name for what is referred to here as Kered Zaram.

[Sara]

Right now Durin ends up getting to be old enough that he's called Durin The Deathless. But how old was he really? It's kind of hard to tell.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah, good luck with that.

[Sara]

Yeah, yeah, we know the dwarves awoke after the elves, but when was that?

[Alan Sisto]

Well, in a couple of places in the history of Middle Earth, specifically the Annals of Amon in Morgoth's Ring and the Gray Annals in the War of the Jewels, we learned that the elves awoke in the Year of the trees, 1050. So sometime after that.

[Sara]

Yeah, but how much later? So if we go to the chapter of the Sindar in the Silmarillion, we learn that the Sindar first encountered the Dwarves in Year of the trees, 1250. So that's a 200 year gap, or more like a 1900 year gap, because the years of the trees are so long.

[Alan Sisto]

That's right, it's 200 years of the trees. So it's almost 2,000 actual solar years. Now, can we narrow that gap down a little further? We actually can in the War of the Jewels. In a bit called concerning the Dwarves, Christopher points us to a roughly written passage in which we're told about Aule's creation of the dwarves. And as in the published version, we read that he took the Seven Fathers, laid them in far sundered places, again, Durin by himself. But then we get this tidbit. It is not known when Durin or his brethren first awoke, though some think that it was at the time of the departure of the Eldar oversea. So now we have a historical moment to compare it to.

[Sara]

Right, and that means it was between Year of the trees, 1132, when the Vanyar and the Noldor headed over, and 1150, which is when the Teleri left.

[Alan Sisto]

And that's a lot smaller gap. I mean, yes, it's still quite a bit about 140 year gap, because those are still years of the trees. But it narrows it down quite a bit. Again, though, that's. That's only if you know the some think. Right.

[Sara]

This is another one some say.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah, so only if that's right. Now the text here does tell us that he died before the Elder Days were over. Now you and I just talked last week about the Elder Days, because Aragorn says I am the latest king of the Elder Days.

[Sara]

Right.

[Alan Sisto]

Could possibly just be referring to the Third Age, because first, second and Third Age were called Elder Days in the Fourth Age. Here, though this is clearly referring to the formal meaning of the word, which means just before the overthrow of thank Origin.

[Sara]

Exactly. Yeah. So all told, then, Durin the Deathless was Most likely around 2,400 years old by the time of his death.

[Alan Sisto]

That's fair enough to call him the Deathless, then.

[Sara]

Yeah, that's pretty good.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah. Even though he died, his lie never failed. But not every descendant was a Durin. I think that's very interesting. It's not like his son was Durin the Second, but five more times over the history of the Dwarves, we're told an heir was born that was so like Durin that he was actually named after him.

[Sara]

And the dwarves actually believed that he was Durin returned reincarnated.

[Alan Sisto]

Oh, we got a lot of questions. Yeah, I do too. And I mean, I'm hoping that when we do the episode covering the stuff in Peoples of Middle Earth, we'll get a lot more on that. But that's an interesting belief. Like, are we. Did we borrow that from the elves and the whole idea of FAAR and new bodies and all of that?

[Sara]

Yeah, I mean, since when do the Dwarves believe in reincarnation? That's a really odd thing.

[Alan Sisto]

And they seem to only believe in it for Durin or maybe the fathers.

[Sara]

Of the other houses, only for Durin. And my other question is, look at what it says, that an heir is born that's so like Durin that he's named after him. How do you know when an itty bitty dwarf is born? I mean, does he come out with a ginormic beard?

[Alan Sisto]

Does he get named? Is it like the elves, where they're not really given their kind of true names, the names that they're known by until they're grown?

[Sara]

That would make more sense.

[Alan Sisto]

And even then, even if you have, let's say, sculptures of Durin, they're not going to be like photographic evidence.

[Sara]

Not so much. So how do they know?

[Alan Sisto]

How do they know that he's even like him? Nobody remembers the last Durin because it's been hundreds of years. It's a very interesting question, like, how do we know?

[Sara]

Right. So maybe it is something like the dwarf has to grow into that name, if you like. And it would be. I hate to think that all it is is some kind of facial similarity, because I don't think that really works. It's got to be something about the personality, the charisma, the way in which they are with others. Something about just the way they carry themselves even. But you can't tell that when it's a sprocklet that's just popped out.

[Alan Sisto]

No, you can't. And I think again, I'm hoping we get to this when we get to Peoples of Middle Earth about how Dwarves get in named. And we get so much detail on Elvish names in the history of Middle Earth. We get how the mother gives them a name, the father gives them a name, then they get given a name later on when they're older and they've grown into their character. And that makes me feel like, okay, if that's the, the way they choose, if they've borrowed that, let's say from the elves, that, that method of naming, then, then maybe that's when the Durin name is given to an heir. Like, wow, now that you've grown up. You really strike me as a lot like Duran. Not that you look like him, but that you act like him. You have that same leadership or that same charisma, that same wisdom. It may be right.

[Sara]

Yeah.

[Alan Sisto]

And so you're going to be given the name during the 4th. You know, and yet not every heir got it. That's the thing. It was a very uncommon thing for an heir of Durin to actually be a Duran. So.

[Sara]

Yes.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah, yeah.

[Sara]

So we'll have to wait and see what the peoples of Middle Earth has to say about this.

[Alan Sisto]

Yes, we will. So come back in a couple of weeks for that.

[Sara]

Yep. So now this idea of the Dwarves believing that he was Durin returned reincarnated this is one of those many strange tales and beliefs about themselves. So we are definitely going to be digging into that in a couple of weeks.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah, we will. But after his death, 2400 years or so after the end of the First Age, Khazad Dum, which was already the greatest of the mansions of the Dwarves back when the Sindar first met the Dwarves in the Year of the trees, 1250, Khazad Dum is said to get even more rich. And I suppose it helps when the survivors of two other Dwarven cities, Nod and Belegost, find their way there when that part of the continent sinks into the waves after the destruction of Thangorodrim.

[Sara]

And it's not just wealth either. We also hear about much lore and craft. And now with those two places gone, the sole focus in the rest of the legendarium is on Moria and Durin's people, the Longbeards. So we shift to Moria.

[Alan Sisto]

Indeed. And they managed to do all right during the time of Sauron's power in the Second Age. Even after Sauron wiped out Eregion and made that Celebrimbor kebab.

[Sara]

Well, sure, they had to close the doors and isolate, but there was zero chance Sauron would have been able to Beat them from the outside.

[Alan Sisto]

From the outside? Was that supposed to be foreboding? Because it sounds foreboding. Right. Too strong for Sauron to conquer from without suggests a rather different approach. Maybe one with shadowy wings. That isolation had a cost though, didn't it? Right. I mean, it's. People began to dwindle and again, we'll probably get to things on Dwarven reproduction in a couple of episodes. But clearly they weren't achieving the replacement birth rate of 2 kids per couple, you know.

[Sara]

No, they were not. No. So we now move forward to the middle of the Third Age. And now we've got Durin the Sixth ruling over Khazad Dum. Sauron is regaining his strength in Mirkwood, but no one is aware that it's him just yet. But evil things are stirring as a result. Now the text moves quickly, but we'll slow down just a bit.

[Alan Sisto]

Just a bit, though. First we're told they're digging deep for a valuable metal called Mithil that every year is getting harder and harder to find. Want to revisit Gandalf's words about that from the Lord of the Rings? The wealth of Moria was not in gold and jewels, the toys of the Dwarves, nor in iron their servant. Such things they found here, it is true, especially iron. But they did not deed to tell for them all things that they desired they could obtain in traffic. For here alone in the world was found Moria silver, or true silver, as some have called it. Mithril is the elvish name. The Dwarves have a name which they do not tell. Its worth was 10 times that of gold. And now it is beyond price, for little is left above ground and even the Orcs dare not delve here for it.

[Sara]

Now Gandalf continues explaining that. And I'm not doing an Alan worthy reading of Gandalf's voice, but he explains that the loads lead away north, towards Karathras and down to darkness. The Dwarves tell no tale. But even as Mithril was the foundation of their wealth so also it was their destruction. They delved too greedily and too deep and disturbed that from which they fled Durin's bane Of what they brought to light, the Orcs have gathered nearly all and given it in tribute to Sauron, who covets it. And then we're told that they woke something up. A thing of terror. But did they wake it up? The footnote to this reads, or released from prison. It may well be that it had already been awakened by the malice of Sauron.

[Alan Sisto]

I like that footnote version.

[Sara]

So do I.

[Alan Sisto]

And it sort of fits. I mean, I'm thinking of the way the Witch King sort of woke up the evil spirits in the Barrow Downs.

[Sara]

Right? Yes.

[Alan Sisto]

What do you think? Is it released from prison or awakened by Sauron's mouth? Alice?

[Sara]

Well, the easy answer isn't it, it's that the dwarves woke it up by digging too greedily and too deep because it speaks to that kind of stereotype of Dwarves that we have that, you know, that's what they're after and that's kind of part of their, I suppose, a flaw in their character, if you like. But I just like the idea that Sauron was working to destabilize Moria from the inside and that he would know that there's a Balrog having a snooze in the bottom and that he would find a way to wake it up. I like that idea.

[Alan Sisto]

I do, too. I mean, it still is connected to the Dwarves and their actions because they're the ones who still, you know, free it from prison. It's, you know, it's still trapped physically perhaps because as it's napped, the mountain has shifted. As, you know, plate tectonics have moved things around and so now it's sort of. It's really hidden and the only way to get out now is if it's released, physically released. So, yeah, I like that. That's, I guess, in the end of the day, at least for this particular door. And it doesn't really matter whether they opened its jail cell or woke it up from its nap. It's really something they would have preferred just not to encounter at all.

[Sara]

Right.

[Alan Sisto]

A Balrog of Morgoth that escaped the destruction of, thank God, Gorodrim all the way back at the end of the First Age. That was first age. 587. So it's been here for five and a half millennia. 5,500 years it's been hiding out here.

[Sara]

That is quite the power nap.

[Alan Sisto]

It is, isn't it? I mean, I'm happy when I get 20 minutes.

[Sara]

Right? Lucky old Balrog. But in case you need a reminder of the Balrog, the Valaquenta gives us a bit of a description. It says, of the Mayar. Many were drawn to Melkor's splendour in the days of his greatness and remained in that allegiance down into his darkness. And others he corrupted afterwards to his service with lies and treacherous gifts. Dreadful. Among these spirits were the Valaraukar, the scourges of fire that in Middle Earth were called the Balrogs, Demons of terror.

[Alan Sisto]

Now, they were man shaped, but about twice the height of a man. So ballpark, 12ft or so. Wrapped in shadow and fire, covered in smoke, wielding whips of flame.

[Sara]

I know where you're going.

[Alan Sisto]

But wings. Yeah, shadowy wings. Wings of shadow. We'll go back to our episode. Sean and I did this. Did a whole, you know, recapping the entire debate on the episode in the Battle of the Bridge of Khazad Dum, I should say.

[Sara]

Yes, and you did a fantastic job of picking it apart then. Now, this Balrog was so grumpy upon waking from his five millennia nap in third age 1980 that he killed Durin VI. And a year later, just because he killed the next king, Durin the sixth son, nine. The first. But not surprisingly, the folks of Moria either died or they left. Well, I would. I do a bit of a runner, that's for sure.

[Alan Sisto]

If I were nine, I would have left.

[Sara]

Yes. Yes. What was he sticking around for?

[Alan Sisto]

I guess they thought he was not coming back. Well, we've satisfied the Balrog with my father.

[Sara]

Yes, we fed my dad to the Balrog. Surely that'll do.

[Alan Sisto]

That'll suffice.

[Sara]

Yes. But no. The glory of Moria disappeared when the folks of Moria did.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah, well, of course now the only resident is the Balrog. The grumpy Balrog who woke up and said, where are my wings?

[Sara]

Could have sworn I had some.

[Alan Sisto]

Exactly.

[Sara]

Pretty lace ones with sparkles.

[Alan Sisto]

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[Sara]

Yep, because the PPP has an amazing listener community. They're always coming up with great questions and discussions across all our social media spaces. Check out our Common Room on Facebook, our dedicated subreddit, Twitter and more on Facebook.

[Alan Sisto]

Just look for the Prancing Pony podcast. Follow the page to get the news, but you're going to want to join the group for some great discussions on.

[Sara]

Twitter, Instagram, BlueSky, Twitch, tick tock and YouTube. We are at prancingponypod or if you prefer, Reddit, find us there at R Pod, Prancing Pony Pod.

[Alan Sisto]

And if you want daily Tolkien content, check out today's Tolkien times on the PPP YouTube channel and on all your favorite podcast apps. It's my short format daily show with everything from Word Nerd Wednesdays to Fandom Fridays. And then there's my new twice weekly streaming of all fun things Middle Earth on the PPP plays. Be sure to check both of those shows out on the YouTube channel for all of the PPP productions at YouTube.com prancingpartners now. Sarah, would you pick up where I left off?

[Sara]

Absolutely. Most of those that escaped made their way into the north and Thrain i9's son came to Erebor, the Lonely Mountain near the Eastern Eaves of Mirkwood. And there he began new works and became King under the Mountain. In Erebor he found the great jewel, the Arkenstone, Heart of the Mountain. But Thorin I, his son, removed and went into the far north to the Grey Mountains where most of Durin's folk were now gathering. For those mountains were rich and little explored. But there were dragons in the Wastes beyond. And after many years they became strong again and multiplied. And they made war on the dwarves and plundered their works. At last Dain I, together with Freor, his second son was slain at the doors of his hall by a great cold drake. Not long after most of Durin's Folk abandoned the Grey Mountains. Gror, Dain's son went away with many followers to the Iron Hills. But Thror, Dain's heir with Borin, his father's brother and the remainder of the people returned to Erebor to the great hall of Thrain. Thror brought back the Arkenstone and he and his folk prospered and became rich. And they had the friendship of all men that dwelt near. For they made not only things of wonder and beauty but weapons and armour of great worth. And there was great traffic of ore between them and their kin in the Iron Hills. Thus the Northmen who live between Kelduin and Carnen Red water became strong and drove back all enemies from the east. And the dwarfs lived in plenty. And there was feasting and song in the halls of Erebor. So the rumour of the wealth of Erebor spread abroad and reached the ears of the dragons. And at last Smaug, the golden greatest of the dragons of his day arose and without warning came against King Thror and descended on the mountain in flames.

[Alan Sisto]

He was supposed to give a written notice, a 30 day warning. King Thror, I am coming to get you.

[Sara]

Just failed to do that.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah. So we learned that of those that escaped Moria the majority of them headed to the north. And that seems like a pretty reasonable move, right? I mean, east is out. That's where the Shadow was building. Nobody wants to go that direction. True south would have had them heading towards Fangorn and Gondor. Rohan wasn't a thing yet. Wouldn't be for another 500 years. West makes sense. But they're going to be exiting the east side because at this point why go all the way through the slightly less populated parts of Moria to get out doors of Duran, Just go out the main gate. So really north is where you're going Right.

[Sara]

That kind of makes sense. In fact, nine son, the king of his people and the grandson of Durin the Sixth, leads them to Erebor, the Lonely Mountain and establishes that Kingdom in Third Age, 1999.

[Alan Sisto]

Partying like I know I'm hearing princes. Yeah, my thoughts exactly.

[Sara]

Nearly 20 years after Durin's bane drove out the dwarves. Sorry, I had to. I had to. I couldn't help it.

[Alan Sisto]

I'm totally hearing it now, too. And I'm also thinking that he probably drove them to Erebor in a little red Corvette. Oh, and that there was some purple rain while they were on the road.

[Sara]

Oh, boy.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah.

[Sara]

Was he wearing a raspberry beret? That's what I want to know.

[Alan Sisto]

Almost certainly. Almost. Somebody was.

[Sara]

The kind you find in a secondhand store.

[Alan Sisto]

Well, what else? What other raspberry beret are you gonna find, except in a secondhand story?

[Sara]

Very true.

[Alan Sisto]

So to help put the establishment of this kingdom in a more familiar timeline, it's 25 years after the end of the kingdom of Arnor and the death of Arvedui. And it's just three years before Minas Ithil is captured and becomes Minas Morgo. So there's a lot happening in the world right now.

[Sara]

There really is. And not only does he become King under the Mountain, he discovers the Arkenstone here. And we have already spent some time on that in today's video Philology Fair.

[Alan Sisto]

Indeed we did. Now, on the other hand, his son Thorin went a lot further north. All the way up to the Gray Mountains where many of the other Longbeards were coming together. These mountains were rich and untapped. But there's a reason they're untapped dragons.

[Sara]

Yeah. Those dragons having grown strong in number, they attack the Dwarves. And it won't be the last time either. Dyne the first, whose great grandson will share his name and feature in the story, he dies along with his son Fror, killed by a cold drake. Then this is nearly 600 years after the foundation of Erebor in 2589. And that's about 80 years after Rohan was established. Just to help sort the timeline.

[Alan Sisto]

Now, I'd always imagined a cold drake as simply meaning a dragon who couldn't breathe fire, right? I mean, he's hot, therefore he's quote, unquote cold. That was some sort of special air conditioning power. And in part, that's because of this really interesting quote from Turambar and the Foloke in the Book of Lost Tales Part 2 that the least mighty of the dragons of Morgoth at that time he was referred to as Melko are cold, as is the nature of snakes and serpents. So, you know, just cold blooded.

[Sara]

Right. Well, Tolkien adds, the mightier are hot and very heavy and slow going and some belch flame and fire flickereth beneath their scales. So, yeah, fire breathing dragons and less mighty ones that are just cold, as in lacking heat.

[Alan Sisto]

Right, exactly. But back in episode 352 when Matt and I were talking about the house of Aorl, we talked about from the dragon slayer said to have killed Scatha the worm.

[Sara]

Now we don't get any clues about Scatha in the text, not even that he's a cold drake, but you and Matt looked at the collected poems of J.R.R. tolkien right. @ that time, only recently released, and you discovered a poem about Skatha that Tolkien wrote in 1954.

[Alan Sisto]

And there it sounds like he has some pretty terrifying powers. So there Skatha is described. He was gray, he was cold, he was silent, and he was blind. He crawled like a slow creeping death too horrible to flee from. Froze. Froze men with fear in his icy breath and then crushed them, ground them under his long white belly.

[Sara]

Ew.

[Alan Sisto]

Ew.

[Sara]

Don't fancy coming across that on a dark night.

[Alan Sisto]

Froze men with fear and his icy breath and then just grinds them under his body.

[Sara]

Yes, they might be lesser dragons, but still they. They're really horrible.

[Alan Sisto]

That's the thing. These might be the least mighty. I still don't want anything to do with them.

[Sara]

No, thanks. Yeah, yeah, that's. That's just. Yeah, I'm getting visions of this big blind worm like thing that is just hideous.

[Alan Sisto]

Oh, just. And terrifying. And the fact that he's blind, I thought that was really interesting.

[Sara]

Yes. So I wonder what senses he's using.

[Alan Sisto]

To flicking his tongue out like a lizard does to sort of pick up all the scents in the air.

[Sara]

It's really playing into all our natural kind of human responses to this kind of thing.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah.

[Sara]

You know, people get grossed out by spiders and certain kinds of wriggly creatures and lizards and. Exactly. Yeah. It's really playing into that.

[Alan Sisto]

It is. Very much so.

[Sara]

So with the Grey Mountains having gone kind of downhill as a neighborhood, the dwarves left there too.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah. What with the dragons and all.

[Sara]

Yeah, well, yes, yes. It just brings the neighborhood a bad name, doesn't it?

[Alan Sisto]

They need an inch away.

[Sara]

So Gror Dain's third son, who survived and who would be the grandfather to Dyne ii, leaves for the Iron Hills. But Dain's oldest son, his heir, Thror Heads back to Erebor and he sets up shop. He's got the Arkenstone there. He's got riches. And he has the friendship of the men nearby.

[Alan Sisto]

That's right. Lots of trade in things of wonder and beauty as well as arms. Lots of trade with their kin in the Iron Hills. And this trade makes the neighbors better off the Northmen. These would indeed be the Northmen who would later become known as the Eotheod. And eventually their Ohio. They got those guys who live nearby grew into powerful allies thanks to all this trade.

[Sara]

Right. So things were good. It's party time in Erebor, right?

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah. Like it's 1999 again.

[Sara]

Like it's 1999. Yes. Now for a description we got to go back to the Hobbit. And a haughty explanation from Thorin. It would be haughty. That's very Thorin. And he says, long ago in my grandfather Thror's time, our family was driven out of the far north and came back with all their wealth and their tools to this mountain. On the map it had been discovered by my far ancestor Thrying the Old. But now they mined and they tunnelled and they made huger halls and greater workshops. And in addition, I believe they found a good deal of gold and a great many jewels too. Anyway, they grew immensely rich and famous. And my grandfather was king under the mountain again and treated with great reverence by the mortal men who lived to the south and were gradually spreading up the running river as far as the valley overshadowed by the mountain. They built the merry town of Dale there in those days.

[Alan Sisto]

Boy, that does sound like a really haughty Thorin. Well, anyway, they grew immensely rich and my grandfather was treated with reverence.

[Sara]

Yes, Thorin the snob.

[Alan Sisto]

Get over yourself, Thorin. Now, Thorin also talks about the benefits of that relationship with the local men. Right. Kings used to send for our smiths and reward even the least skillful, most rich richly. Fathers would beg us to take their sons as apprentices and pay us handsomely, especially in food supplies which we never bothered to grow or find for ourselves. Altogether those were good days for us. And the poorest of us had money to spend and to lend and leisure to make beautiful things just for the fun of it. Not to speak of the most marvelous and magical toys the like of which is not to be found in the world nowadays. So my grandfather's halls became full of armor and jewels and carvings and cups. And the toy market of Dale was the wonder of the North. Thorin's Line right after that is undoubtedly that was what brought the dragon. And really that's what the text here is saying, isn't it?

[Sara]

Yes, it is. The news of their wealth reached the dragons and Smaug, who's described here as the greatest of his day. And they did what dragons? They rained down destruction on Erebor. And in the last bit we skipped reading we learned that the entire realm of Erebor and the nearby town of Dale were destroyed, utterly destroyed while Smaug rested on his spoils. As you do.

[Alan Sisto]

As you do. And this was in third age 2770, almost 800 years after the founding of Erebor. A little bit more timeline details here just to kind of help you line this up with the other events in Middle earth. This is 11 years after the end of the Long Winter and the death of Helm Hammerhand which was the start of the second line of the Kings of Rohan.

[Sara]

It really is a time of lots of stuff happening, lots of recognizable figures, isn't it?

[Alan Sisto]

It really is, yeah.

[Sara]

Now, just as before, some Dwarves do escape Thror and his son Thrain II among them and they head out into a wandering existence with a small group of family and followers including Thorin, who is not yet Oakenshield. Now. Fortunately, the footnote tells us it was afterwards learned that more of the Folk under the Mountain had escaped than was at first hoped. But most of these went to the Iron Hills. Right. So, Alan, do you want to pick it up?

[Alan Sisto]

I do indeed. Years afterwards, Thror, now old, poor and desperate, gave to his son Thrain the one great treasure he still possessed. The last of the seven Rings. Rings. And then he went away with one old companion only called Nar of the Ring. He said to Thryne at their parting, this may prove the foundation of new fortune for you yet though that seems unlikely. But it needs gold to breed gold. Surely you do not think of returning to Erebor? Said Thrain. Not at my age, said Thror. Our vengeance on Smaug I bequeath to you and your son. But I am tired of poverty and the scorn of men. I go to see what I can find. He did not say where he was a little crazed perhaps with age and misfortune and long brooding on the splendor of Moria in his forefathers days, or the Ring it may be, was turning to evil now that its master was awake driving him to folly and destruction. From Dunland, where he was then dwelling he went north with Nar and they crossed the Redhorn Pass and came down into Azanulbizar. When Thror came to Moria, the gate was open. Nar begged him to beware. But he took no heed of him and walked proudly in as an heir that returns. But he did not come back. Nar stayed nearby for many days, in hiding. One day he heard a loud shout and the blare of a horn and a body was flung out on the steps. Fearing that it was Thror, he began to creep near. But there came a voice from within the gate. Come on, Beardling, we can see you. But there's no need to be afraid. Today we need you as a messenger. Then Nar came up and found that it was indeed the body of of Thror. But the head was severed and lay face downwards. As he knelt there, he heard orc laughter in the shadows. And the voice said, if beggars will not wait at the door, but sneak in to try thieving, that is what we do to them. If any of your people poke their foul beards in here again, they will fare the same. Go and tell them so. But if his family wished to know who is now king here, the name is written on his face. I wrote it. I killed him. I am the Master. Then Nar turned the head and saw branded on the brow in Dwarf runes so that he could read it the name Azog.

[Sara]

By the way, that was amazing reading of an Orc.

[Alan Sisto]

Thank you. I love reading the villains. They're so much fun.

[Sara]

Villain voices.

[Alan Sisto]

Yes. They're the most fun to do, for sure.

[Sara]

So that's a sad end, isn't it?

[Alan Sisto]

It is, yeah.

[Sara]

Yeah.

[Alan Sisto]

Really sad. A really violent end.

[Sara]

Yeah. Yeah. Indeed. So, years into their homeless wandering, Thror gives the last of the seven rings to his son, Thryne. And he left with one other dwarf, Gnar. And before he left, he spoke to Thryan about the ring. That it could be the source of new wealth, but that it needs gold to breed gold.

[Alan Sisto]

I like that phrasing. And. And it does. I mean, that's the thing.

[Sara]

It does. Yes, it's true.

[Alan Sisto]

It's absolutely true. If we revisit what we know about the Seven Rings, and we learn this from of the Rings of Power and the Third Age in the Silmarillion Seven rings he gave to the dwarves, talking about Sauron. But to many gave nine. For men proved in this matter, as in others, the readiest to his will. And all those rings that he governed, he perverted the more easily since he had a part in their making and they were accursed and they betrayed in the end, all those that used them, the Dwarves indeed proved tough and hard to tame. They ill endure the domination of others, and the thoughts of their hearts are hard to fathom. Nor can they be turned to shadows. They used their rings only for the getting of wealth. But wrath and an overmastering greed of gold were kindled in their hearts, of which evil enough after came to the prophet of Sauron. It is said that the foundation of each of the seven hoards of the Dwarf kings of old was a golden ring. But all those hoards long ago were plundered, and the dragons devoured them. And of the seven rings, some were consumed in fire and some Sauron recovered.

[Sara]

That's really good. And it reminds me that Tolkien has often written about things like hordes and, you know, that kind of almost dragon sickness when it comes to gold and things, and we get a real sense of that here. What this reminds me of is that wonderful poem, you, Mona Gold G, also known as the Horde.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah.

[Sara]

Which talks about exactly this. That, you know, you build up a horde and that's all your life is about, and then someone else comes and takes it from you and the same thing happens to them.

[Alan Sisto]

Yep, yep, exactly right.

[Sara]

That next week we'll get to a line in the appendix about this ring, that the Dwarves believed it to have been the first of the seven to be forged and that it was given directly to Dragon Durin iii, then the king of Khazad Dum, by the Elven smiths and not by Sauron.

[Alan Sisto]

It's interesting because when we look at the history of Galadriel and Celeborn from Unfinished Tales, we read that after Sauron tortured Celebrimbor, he learned from him where the seven were bestowed, which certainly implies that they'd already been given, but not necessarily to any of the Dwarves.

[Sara]

Right. And in fact, in a bracketed note, Christopher explains, it is not actually said here that Sauron at this time took possession of the seven rings, though the implication seems clear that he did. So he then references the line that we just quoted about Durin being allegedly given the ring directly, before adding that nothing is said in the present text about the way in which the seven rings came into the possession of the dwarfs. So why is it such a mystery?

[Alan Sisto]

It's another one of those things that Tolkien never really got into about, you know, how these rings were distributed. Do I want to believe that this ring was given to them directly by Celebrimbor? Yeah, I'd like to believe that, but. But that's the thing I. I have the feeling that in this case that's just wishful thinking.

[Sara]

I think so, too. And I think, honestly, Tolkien often leaves these gaps in the histories and that mirrors what it's like in the primary world anyway. There are gaps in histories, right?

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah, absolutely.

[Sara]

And here, this particular kind of story is almost certainly going to have multiple perspectives, each of which is going to tell the story in their own way, in a way that makes them look best, if you like.

[Alan Sisto]

Oh, yeah.

[Sara]

The Dwarves are going to claim that this ring came first from Celebrimbor. But, you know, if Sauron ever sat down and wrote his diary, he's definitely going to say, dear Diary, today I handed over this ring. Right?

[Alan Sisto]

That's right, yeah.

[Sara]

So it kind of makes sense that certain things are left without being said explicitly. This is what happened. Some things that are that far in the past just are mysterious.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah. It's good to have competing versions of a story too. Even though that can be a little frustrating when we're trying to figure out what actually happened. But, yeah, you're right. Sauron's gonna say, this is how it went down. And the Dwarves are gonna say, this is. But coming back to the text, of course they talk a little bit before he leaves about throne plans and whether he's thinking about going back to deal with Smaug and Erebor, which would be a terrible idea, a very bad idea. But it's worse than that. Thran.

[Sara]

Oh, dear.

[Alan Sisto]

He doesn't tell his son but he heads back to Moria leaving the task of vengeance to Thrain and Thorin. Etc. G dad, thanks. Thanks so very much. I feel like Feanor's sons, as Feanor was dying, like he knew with the certainty of death that nobody was ever going to overcome than Gorodrim. But sons. Go get him.

[Sara]

Yep.

[Alan Sisto]

Thanks, dad. Yep.

[Sara]

How do the wheels of that bus feel as they roll right over you? So he and Gnar head out and it's unclear whether this poor decision making is a result of age or obsession or bad luck or whether the ring was contributing. Maybe it's a combination of all of them.

[Alan Sisto]

That's the thing. I mean, it seems to be placed in the sentence as an or, but both. Why not both?

[Sara]

Yes. Yeah, absolutely. Because he is old, he is bitter, he is poor.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah.

[Sara]

He's obsessed with not being at least two of those things. That's right, Yeah. I mean, bad luck. There's an extent to which you've got to take some kind of responsibility for your own choices here. It's not bad Luck that he meets up with orcs in Moria, because they're there. It's not bad luck.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah. And because you walked in pridefully, like you were the heir of this place.

[Sara]

Yeah, exactly. I mean, you can almost imagine the scene. He goes, you know, strolling right in and says, right, you lot, out. This is mine. I don't think that's going to work.

[Alan Sisto]

We're gonna have a chat about that.

[Sara]

Yeah, yeah. But whatever the cause of his decision, he makes his way from Dunland. Homeless wanderings have taken them pretty far up to the Redhorn Pass and down into Azanul Bizar.

[Alan Sisto]

Now, this is after the west gate of Moria was made. We talked about this before when they fled Moria. So why cross over the mountains to get into Moria from the east side? Like, why not just go in the doors of Duran? The only thing I can think of is something we talked about before. Why did they flee out that gate? It's that the oldest parts of Khazad Dum were in the east. You know, where it had originally first been built. That's presumably where you know, most of the halls, you know, the places where they lived were in the eastern side. But I had a question. I wonder what your thoughts were on this. Could the Watcher have already been there?

[Sara]

Yes, well, that would make a lot of sense, because you've got to ask yourself why it is they're taking that enormous detour. Why do that? Unless something is there that you're more frightened of.

[Alan Sisto]

Right.

[Sara]

Something that is, barring the way, if you like, I mean, you're already dealing with a Balrog on the inside. And if, you know you're dealing with a Watcher on the outside. That's a lot.

[Alan Sisto]

That is a lot. That is an absolute lot. Yeah. So understandably, they'd go the long way. And when he gets to that main gate, that is, of course, the east gate, it is open. And honestly, I've got to say, that cannot not be good.

[Sara]

No, no.

[Alan Sisto]

If I come home after I've been gone for a few weeks and the door to my house is open, I don't know that I'm going in without an army.

[Sara]

I think that's fair. Yes.

[Alan Sisto]

Gnar does what he can. Can I just say, I love his name, Gnar. I mean, he just. He's a pirate dwarf.

[Sara]

You're suddenly from Somerset?

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah, he's just. Are great name. He, of course, is like. You might want to take it easy, sir. There's. There might be bad guys about.

[Sara]

And we're down to Devon.

[Alan Sisto]

See, that's the thing. The lovely thing about making this stuff up as I go is I have no clue. And thank you for telling me where I ended up coming from.

[Sara]

It doesn't matter. It's all good.

[Alan Sisto]

Sort of like we talked about Tom Bombadil's appearance.

[Sara]

His wandering accent, bless him.

[Alan Sisto]

So Thror goes straight in as though this were her's birthright. And things go very poorly.

[Sara]

Yeah. And then days pass and he doesn't come out. Gnar is hiding and waiting until he then hears a horn and a shout and a body is thrown out onto the stairs. And he's trying to sneak his way up to see if it's Thor. But I mean, who else is it going to be? Nobody else is being dumb enough to go in there.

[Alan Sisto]

Exactly.

[Sara]

But an Orc voice tells him that he doesn't have to sneak today. He's safe because he's needed to take a message to the Dwarves.

[Alan Sisto]

That's right. And of course, it is Thror. So the voice gives Nar the message, calling Thror a beggar and a thief and threatening to kill any dwarf who enters Moria.

[Sara]

Basically, this is our place, throwing down that challenge. And he says, if you want to know the name of the king here in Moria, it's EW written on his head.

[Alan Sisto]

Oh, at least it's in Dwarf runes. I mean, that's better than, say, Comic Sans.

[Sara]

That would be rude.

[Alan Sisto]

That would just be insulting.

[Sara]

Yes, it would.

[Alan Sisto]

Or worse would be papyrus. But we won't.

[Sara]

Oh, Lord. I mean, Wingdings.

[Alan Sisto]

Oh, goodness. Wing dings. Oh, totally illegible. I can't. What does this say?

[Sara]

And why? No, the name is Azog. And he clearly wanted the attention of the Dwarves. And he gets it.

[Alan Sisto]

I'm just glad his name wasn't John Jacob Jingle Hanger Smith. Hang on a minute. I'm still carving my name.

[Sara]

This dwarf does not have a big enough head.

[Alan Sisto]

Seriously.

[Sara]

Now, in the part that we skipped reading, there's a footnote. It mentions that Azog is the father of Bolg, who is the leader of the goblins in the Battle of Five Armies in the Hobbit. And he is slain by Beorn, if I recall correctly.

[Alan Sisto]

That is correct. Now, speaking of the Hobbit, though, for almost 30 years of its publication, until the third edition in 1966, Thror was said to have been killed in the mines of Moria by a goblin, unnamed. And it was only in that third edition, published a decade after the Lord of the Rings, that his killer was Named as Azog the goblin, Gnar wants.

[Sara]

To take the head with him.

[Alan Sisto]

Ew.

[Sara]

That's a bit of a gruesome souvenir.

[Alan Sisto]

Do you want to. No, that's not a good idea.

[Sara]

I went all the way to Moria and all I got.

[Alan Sisto]

Stupid head. That's great.

[Sara]

Oh, I'd have preferred a T shirt.

[Alan Sisto]

Seriously, Please.

[Sara]

But Azog tells him to leave it, and he tosses him a few worthless coins for just added insult.

[Alan Sisto]

I know. Like, here's a few pennies. Like, I know I'm poor, but that's ridiculous. Yeah.

[Sara]

Yeah. But Gnar does what he's told. He turns around and leaves. And then he looks back and he sees the orcs already hacking up Thror's body.

[Alan Sisto]

What about his legs? He doesn't need those.

[Sara]

Looks like meat's back on the menu, boys.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah, and throwing it to the crows, just.

[Sara]

That's just nasty and rude.

[Alan Sisto]

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[Sara]

No chef escapes the clock.

[Alan Sisto]

Season Premiere 24 and 24 Last Chef Standing Sunday, April 27 at 8 see you first on Food Time Network stream next day on MAX. Folks, if you're enjoying the PPP, please consider supporting the show by joining the Fellowship of the Podcast. It's what gives me the time and resources to work on making this show the best that it can be. When you join, you become part of an amazing discord community that includes live episode recordings, one of them is happening right now, and hangouts every month. You also get episode postscripts, you can get AD free episodes, free merch and more.

[Sara]

And you can also become part of our Questions After Nightfall episodes or even join us as a guest in the North Wing. So Please go to patreon.com prancingponypod to show your support and join the Fellowship of the Podcast.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah, you can always help us out by giving us a rating and review on Apple Podcasts as well and a rating on Spotify. And please recommend us to your friends. Now, what happens after this little visit at the gates of Moria?

[Sara]

Sarah okay, well settle back in your armchair, put your feet up, grab your cup of tea, and I will tell you for such was the tale that Na brought back to Thrine, and when he had wept and torn his beard, he fell silent. Seven days he sat and said no word. Then he stood up and said, this cannot be borne. That was the beginning of the war of the dwarves and the Orcs, which was long and deadly, and fought for the most part in deep places beneath the earth. Thrain at once sent messengers bearing the tale north, east, and west. But it was three years before the dwarves had mustered their strength. Durin's folk gathered all their host, and they were joined by great forces sent from the houses of other fathers for this dishonour to the heir of the eldest of their race filled them with wrath. When all was ready, they assailed and sacked, one by one, all the strongholds of the orcs that they could find, from Gundabad to the Gladden, both sides were pitiless. There was death and cruel deeds by dark and by light. But the dwarves had the victory through their strength and their matchless weapons, and the fire of their anger, as they hunted for azog in every den under the mountain. At last all the orcs that fled before them were gathered in Moria. And the dwarf host in pursuit came to Azanulbizar. That was a great vale that lay between the arms of the mountains about the lake of Keled Zaram and had been of old part of the kingdom of Khazad Dum. When the Dwarves saw the gate of their ancient mansions upon the hillside they sent up a great shout like thunder in the valley. But a great host of foes was arrayed on the slopes above them. And out of the gates poured a multitude of Orcs that had been held back by Azog for the last need. At first, fortune was against the Dwarves. For it was a dark day of winter without sun and the Orcs did not waver. And they outnumbered their enemies and had the higher ground. So began the battle of Azanulbizar or Nanduhirion in the elvish tongue at the memory of which the Orcs still shudder and the Dwarves weep. The first assault of the vanguard, led by Thrain, was thrown back with loss. And Thrain was driven into a wood of great trees that then still grew. Not far from Keledzarem there Frerin, his son fell and Fundin, his kinsman, and many others. And both Thrain and Thorin were wounded.

[Alan Sisto]

Oh, man. The battle of Azanulbazar.

[Sara]

Mmm. I love the Elvish name for that. Nanduhirion.

[Alan Sisto]

All the names here are great. I love that when we get to Moria the very first time or when we get to Eregion and Gimli kind of names, the three peaks and then we get the common speech names and the, the Elvish names. It's really nice to, to get them all together. But you're right, is a. A lovely sounding name.

[Sara]

It is.

[Alan Sisto]

Now, are we surprised that an action like, I don't know, carving your name into the severed head of a former king instigates war? No. No, I'm not surprised.

[Sara]

No.

[Alan Sisto]

Nar brings the message back to Thor's son Thr who mourns and sits quietly for a full week before declaring war. And again, just to put this in the timeline Thror's death took place place in third age 2790. That's 20 years after Smaug took Erebor.

[Sara]

And he sends messengers out with the news and the details seeking to bring their forces together for one decisive campaign. And it takes three full years for the Dwarves to gather their forces together. And again, to put this into the timeline, it's third age 2793.

[Alan Sisto]

Now, of course, it's not just the long beards either that's what's interesting about this. We read that great for forces were sent by the other houses, so no wonder it took three years. I mean, these houses were founded out in far areas like Ruhn. I don't know where they are now. We're never told. But clearly getting the messages, gathering the armies, transporting the armies takes a long time.

[Sara]

It does, yeah. And why would those other houses join in this fight? The text says it's because this dishonor to the heir of the eldest of their race filled them with wrath. So they might not be of Durin's house, but Durin is the first and clearly is someone to esteem.

[Alan Sisto]

Indeed. So they start attacking all the strongholds, starting in the north with Gundabad, all the way south down to the gladden. Now, remember we talked earlier about Gundabad being where Durin woke up, but we didn't say where. We learned that. That's actually in that same essay of Dwarves and men that we've looked at before and will undoubtedly look at again at length in two weeks. Found in the peoples of Middle Earth.

[Sara]

And there we read about the name Gundabad, that it was in origin a Kuzdul name and that it's where the ancestor of the long beards awoke, that is Durin. And because of this, Gundabad was therefore revered by the dwarves. And its occupation in the Third Age by the Orcs was one of the chief reasons for their great hatred of the Orcs. And that also then helps explain the willingness of these other houses of the Dwarves to come and do a little bit of house cleaning.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah, I mean, therefore revered by the dwarves, not just therefore revered by the long beards. I think that's right. A lot.

[Sara]

It does, yeah.

[Alan Sisto]

So this, of course, was not a pretty war. As if war ever is. Both sides are described as being pitiless. We get this line, kind of scary line really, about cruel deeds being done by dark and by light. Quick question for you. Dark and light, are we talking about under the mountains and in the daylight, or are we talking about dark like orcs, light like dwarves? That is the good and the bad guys both did cruel deeds here.

[Sara]

What I love about Tolkien's writing is often there are many layers of meaning. And I would just answer yes, actually, why not? Right? I don't see why not both Here you can read it metaphorically and you can read it as being. This is geographically what was going on and where.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah.

[Sara]

So yes, I would say that by dark and by light, inside and outside, and the evil forces and the good Forces that. That works for me. What do you think?

[Alan Sisto]

I agree. I mean, that's the thing. It's another one of those things where it means a lot more than it says. On its face. It means a lot.

[Sara]

That's very Tolkien, though, right?

[Alan Sisto]

It is. And I think it's also very Tolkien that he points out that the good guys here are not immune to committing terrible, cruel deeds.

[Sara]

That's true.

[Alan Sisto]

You know, we even get hints of that with men as well. I'm trying to remember some of the spots. But there are sort of hints that, you know, there are some. Some things that are unfortunate to have happened, shall we say?

[Sara]

That's a nice way of putting it, isn't it?

[Alan Sisto]

Trying to find ways.

[Sara]

Yeah. But that's why war is just awful.

[Alan Sisto]

No matter what, it's war. Yeah, that's the thing. And now I'm thinking of the line from, I think it's fallout. War never changes. Eventually, thanks to their superior weapons and their fury, the Dwarves emerged the victors in this war. But the hunt for Azog continued. And it honestly took a while. I mean, we're told that the war of the Dwarves and ORCs lasted for six years until the upcoming Battle of Nandahirion in Third Age 2799.

[Sara]

So as the Dwarves sweep from north to south, the surviving Orcs keep moving south to Moria. And that's where they all are when the army of the Dwarves meets them in the Dimril Dale. So we arrive at the moment when the Dwarves see the Great East Gate of Moria and they cheer like thunder, only to see that they are nowhere near achieving total victory yet.

[Alan Sisto]

Sorry. Woohoo. It's Moria. Wait a minute. We've got a huge army in front of us and they're in superior position right there up the slope. We have the high ground, Anakin. I mean, that's the first thing I thought of when I read that. I'm like, oh no, the Orcs are Obi Wan. And the army, this huge Orc army that's already huge, is being reinforced with yet more Orcs just flooding from the Gate of Moria. And this is the start of the Battle of Azanul Bazaar. And boy, it does not start out well for the Dwarves, does it?

[Sara]

No, no, the weather isn't helping. For a start, the Orcs hate the sun. But this is a dark winter's day, so Orc morale and of course their skin tone is completely unaffected. They don't need to put on the Factor 50.

[Alan Sisto]

Exactly. They don't have to even think about slathering on the sunscreen. They're just getting out there, ready to do battle.

[Sara]

Exactly. Now, when you combine that with the higher ground, it's a tough fight for the Dwarves.

[Alan Sisto]

That it is. What do you think, by the way, about this almost spoilery statement at the beginning of the description of the battle? We get the name of it right at the memory of which the Orcs still shudder and the Dwarves weep.

[Sara]

Now, there are certain battles throughout the history of Middle Earth, if you like, that are so huge that those who participated, on whichever side, it's going to be one of those that goes down in their histories as being absolutely terrible. And it's spoilery in the sense that if the Orcs shudder, we know that terrible things happen to the Orcs. And if the Dwarves weep, we know that terrible things happen to the Dwarves too. This is not the kind of battle where one side gets utterly overwhelmed by the other side. And it's just a rout.

[Alan Sisto]

Right.

[Sara]

This is a battle where the two sides are going to just fight it out and fight it out until so many on both sides are dead. It's the Nirnaetha Neudiad again, isn't it?

[Alan Sisto]

That's exactly the one I was thinking of when he. You started talking about, you know, how both sides look at this and there was a lot of loss there.

[Sara]

Yeah, yeah. And we do get a brief description of the early stages of the battle. So the vanguard's initial assault is completely blunted with Thrain driven back into a forested area. And that's where his second son, Frerin, is killed, as well as Funden.

[Alan Sisto]

Now, Funden is his second cousin. Fundin's grandfather, Boren, was the brother of Thran's grandfather, Dan the First.

[Sara]

And Thran himself is wounded. And we'll see the extent of his wounds later today. And so is his eldest son, Thorin.

[Alan Sisto]

Oh, and this is where we get the cool stuff about his name. In the footnote that reads, it is said that Thorin's shield was cloven and he cast it away and he hewed off with his ax, a branch of an oak and held it in his left hand to ward off the strokes of his foes or to wield as a club, in this way, he got his name.

[Sara]

Oh, that's, you know, that's Marvel kind of superhero. It is story, isn't it?

[Alan Sisto]

I love it. It's just buried in a footnote in the appendices.

[Sara]

Yeah. And that's another thing that, you know in. In the Hobbit, he's Thor And Oaken Shield and it's never explained.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's not. I mean, I. To his credit, even though I've criticized the films a lot, Jackson did it, least do that, didn't he? He pulled this footnote out and told the story, showed the story.

[Sara]

Yeah, yeah, that's true, that's true. But you know, I'm not giving him too much credit for the Hobbit film.

[Alan Sisto]

That's because that happened in the first movie, which was still okay.

[Sara]

Yeah, yeah.

[Alan Sisto]

Moving on, moving on.

[Sara]

Yeah. The battle is uncertain the whole day with both sides suffering huge losses. Until finally the dwarves of the Iron Hills come and their number and their freshness end the battle. And these reinforcements make an immediate impact, driving through the remaining Orc formations all the way to the east gate of Moria. It's like the, the Dwarves of the Iron Hills, they always seem to wait until the end and they sweep in and save the day. Right.

[Alan Sisto]

Where were you at the beginning? We could have used you a couple hours ago.

[Sara]

Right. We might not have had so many losses. I mean, they do the same thing in the battle of the Five Armies.

[Alan Sisto]

Exactly what I was thinking to show up like Clean Sweep. All right. We're here as your reinforcements.

[Sara]

You could just imagine them sitting on the hillside. Is it time to go yet? No, not yet. I'm finished my cup of tea.

[Alan Sisto]

That's right, exactly. Still time. Still time to have something to eat before we head down the hill. Yeah. So their battle cry, by the way, when these dwarves of the Iron Hills shows up is one word, one name. Azog. The name of the Orc that has fueled this six year quest for vengeance by the dwarves. I mean, a lot of times you think about the dwarves arriving, you imagine them saying, baruch kazad. Kazad. I Menu. Right. The axes of the dwarves. The axes of the dwarves are upon you. No, they're just shouting azog. Azog.

[Sara]

That would be terrifying.

[Alan Sisto]

Can you, if you're Azog, you're like, can I find a large rock to hide behind? Yeah.

[Sara]

Where's the exit?

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah, Maddox, by the way, for the word that you saw here about the, the mattocks the weapons are using. For those who don't know, they're similar to a pickaxe, right. They're very long handle and a very heavy head as opposed to like an axe where it's all about the fine cutting edge. And it's not necessarily super heavy. This is an agricultural tool. It combines two blades. One of the blades is always an ads. Now think of it Adds like a horizontal axe blade. So instead of being up and down, it's left to right. Right. If it has that and a pick then it's called a pick matic. The other kind, called a cutter matic, combines the ads with an ax. So you have one blade that's horizontal, usually used for breaking up soil and roots, and then the vertical blade, the traditional axe. So they are used for grubbing in hard soils and rocky ground. There's no word here as to whether it's a cuttermatic or a picmatic that they're using, but I'm going to lean towards the idea of a pickmatic because it sure would be great for piercing armor.

[Sara]

Yes. And honestly thinking about them wielding these sorts of weapons, it would be absolutely terrifying as a sight.

[Alan Sisto]

Utterly terrifying. And because they're so heavy. Right. These are going to have incredible. That's why I lean towards a picmatic because it's with, with that much weight it's going to have a lot more force. And to have all that force at a single point where that point hits armor. If, if the orcs are, you know, if any of them are armored and we discover that some of them are in fact. Yeah, it's, it's going to make quick work of that, man.

[Sara]

I think you're right about the picmatic because you would be able to swing it in all different directions. So you'd be able to swing it downwards to pierce armor and, and to, you know, hack down into a body, but you'd be able to swing the other blade around in a circle around you to, to cut into those that are around you. It would really be an excellent blade for both defense and attack, wouldn't it?

[Alan Sisto]

I think it would be. And you know, I mean it's, it's heavy so it's a little slow probably, but it's mighty powerful in the hands of a dwarf. So.

[Sara]

Yeah, well I wouldn't argue with a dwarf who's got a pick mattock in.

[Alan Sisto]

His arm or even a cuttermatic for that matter. Either way, I'm just not going to. You go right ahead, sir.

[Sara]

So on that note, do you want to pick up the next bit because this is where it really gets exciting.

[Alan Sisto]

I do. Then Nine stood up before the gate and cried with a great voice, Azog, if you're in, come out. Or is the play in the valley too rough? Thereupon Azog came forth and he was a great orc with a huge iron clad head and yet agile and strong. With him came many like him, the fighters of his guard. And as they engaged Nighan's company, he turned to Nain and said, what? Yet another beggar at my doors? Must I brand you too? With that he rushed at Nyan. And they fought. But Nigh was half blind with rage and also very weary with battle. Whereas Azog was fresh and fell and full of guile. Soon Nein made a great stroke with all his strength that remained. But Azog darted aside and kicked Nine's leg so that the mattock splintered on the stone where he had stood. But Nine stumbled forward. Then Azog, with a swift swing, hewed his neck. His mail collar withstood the edge. But so heavy was the blow that Nein's neck was broken and he fell. Then Azog laughed, and he lifted up his head to let forth a great yell of triumph. But the cry died in his throat. For he saw that all his host in the valley was in a rout. And the dwarves went this way and that slaying as they went wood and those that could escape from them were flying south, shrieking as they ran. And hard by. All the soldiers of his guard lay dead. He turned and fled back towards the gate. Up the steps after him leaped a dwarf with a red axe. It was Dyne Ironfoot, Nine's son. Right before the doors he caught Azog. And there he slew him and hewed off his head. That was held a great feat, for Dian was then only a stripling in the reckoning of the Dwarves. But long life and many battles lay before him until, old but unbowed, he fell at last in the War of the Ring. Yet hardy and full of wrath as he was. It is said that when he came down from the gate he looked gray in the face as one who has felt great fear. When at last the battle was won, the dwarves that were left gathered in Azanulbizar. They took the head of Azog and thrust into its mouth the purse of small money. And then they set it on a stake. But no feast nor song was there that night. For their dead were beyond the count of grief. Barely half of their number, it is said, could still stand or had hope of healing. Nonetheless, in the morning, Thryne stood before them. He had one eye blinded beyond cure and he was halt with a leg wound. But he said, good, we have the victory. Khazad Dum is ours. But they answered. Durin's heir you may be, but even with one eye you should see clearer. We fought this war for vengeance, and vengeance we have taken. But it is not Sweet. If this is victory, then our hands are too small to hold it. And those who were not of Durin's folk said also because our doom was not our father's house. What is it to us unless a hope of treasure. But now if we must go without the rewards and the Weregilds that are owed to us. The sooner we return to our own lands, the better pleased we shall be. Then Thryne turned to Dain and said but surely my own kin will not desert me. No, said Dain, you are the father of our folk and we have bled for you and will again. But we will not enter Khazad Dum. You will not enter Khazad Dum. Only I have looked through. Through the shadow of the gate. Beyond the shadow it waits for you still. Durin's Bane. The world must change. And some other power than ours must come before Durin's folk walk again in Moria.

[Sara]

Oh, very prescient of him.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah, very prophetic. We don't see a lot of dwarven prophecy, but that sure feels like.

[Sara]

That doesn't A little bit of foresight going on there, isn't there?

[Alan Sisto]

And I just saw it. Yeah, that too, definitely.

[Sara]

So Nine gets to the gate and he calls out for Azog. And a reminder that as Gror's son, he is first cousin to Thrain as Dyne the first was their grandfather.

[Alan Sisto]

That's right. Now this moment isn't exactly and Morgoth came, but it's still a pretty terrifying moment. I mean, Azog is a well armored great orc. We know how ferocious he is. He's described here as having incredible strength and agility and a bodyguard of similar great orcs. This is the elite of the orc army. And while Azog's orcs begin the fight with Nine's company, Azog heads straight for Nine himself. And we get the reminder about beggars and brands. I mean, this is high level trash talk. He knows what he's doing.

[Sara]

Oh yes. And so even though Nine and his warriors were fresh reinforcements, they're not really fresh. It's been a long march and they've been fighting their way to the gates. On the other hand, Azog is completely fresh. And apparently he's a rather skilled fighter. Nine goes for a killing blow. But Azog dodges it, throws 9 off balance and immediately then hews at his neck. And sure, the armor protects his head from being removed from his body, but the blow itself was strong enough to break his neck.

[Alan Sisto]

Anyway, that is something. I mean that I That's a lot of force to be able to break a neck with just one hack of whatever weapon he has. Azog, of course, is quite pleased with himself. Very short, you know, made this. It's all over. I'm, you know, we're gonna win now. He's about to shout out a yell and he notices that, oh no, oh no, my entire army is being routed. The Dwarf dwarves are killing at will. My Orcs are just running as fast as they can away from the fight. And oh, even my entire bodyguard is dead. So, whoops, the orc that he is, he runs back to the gate.

[Sara]

That's enough of that.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah, I'm done now. Yeah.

[Sara]

But before he can get there, dying. Ironfoot, the son of nine who is now lying dead nearby, he catches him and he kills him, cutting off his head. And Dyne was considered pretty young to accomplish something like this in battle. He was born in 2767, so he's only 32 years old here. Now you compare this to Thorin, who was 195 in the Battle of Five Armies and 53 years old here at this battle. And that would have been more kind of seen as the prime of life, right? 32 is still very young.

[Alan Sisto]

32 is very young for a dwarf. I mean even 53 is like, oh, he's a little young, but you know, he'll be all right. Certainly, like you said, sort of the prime. Sort of the way we might view somebody in their mid-20s. Like, okay, you're physically a specimen, you might not have all the wisdom you're going to have later, but you could still be a pretty good fighter.

[Sara]

Yeah, you possibly got the ability to get a six pack.

[Alan Sisto]

Exactly. Yeah. A 32 year old is really, really young for a Dwarf. So we get another spoiler here in the text. You know, we talked about the, the description or the name of the battle. Here we get one, one about Dian himself. How old but unbowed, he fell at last in the War of the Ring. And right, that's, you're like, oh no. He does this great thing and then he dies. But interestingly, even though you probably remember that death from somewhere, if you happen to be reading the appendices in order for the first time, you wouldn't have known it yet.

[Sara]

Nope, because it's only later in this appendix, in a part we won't get to till next week that we read Gandalf giving us a some say moment. And he says, now we hear that Dain has fallen fighting in Dale again, even while we Fought here. I should call that a heavy loss if it was not a wonder. Rather that in his great age he could still wield his axe as mightily as they say that he did, standing over the body of King Brand before the gate of Erebor until the darkness fell. Note that his great age is 252.

[Alan Sisto]

That's pretty significant.

[Sara]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's kind of a. A long beard. That is a long gray beard at that point.

[Alan Sisto]

I feel pretty young at this point. I mean, really.

[Sara]

Well, that's nice for you, Alan. Makes a lovely change.

[Alan Sisto]

I mean, you know, I've still got 200 years to go.

[Sara]

How many? Oh, you want to revise that number a little less.

[Alan Sisto]

196.

[Sara]

Moving on.

[Alan Sisto]

Something in Appendix B, the Tale of Years we actually get the full version of his death because, you know, there it's a Gandalf sort of some say, and you know, he might have been standing over the body. We actually get the full version of the Tale of Years. At the same time as the great armies besieged Minas Tirith a host of the allies of Sauron that had long threatened the borders of King Brand crossed the river Carnan. And Brand was driven back to Dale. There he had the aid of the Dwarves of Erebor. And there was a great battle at the mountain's feet. It lasted three days. But in the end, both King Brand and King Dian Ironfoot were slain and the Easterlings had the victory. But they could not take the gate. And many both Dwarves and men took refuge in Erebor and there withstood a siege.

[Sara]

So it's good to get that backstory.

[Alan Sisto]

Dain's a hero or forward story. Yeah, exactly. Sort of a flash forward. But what's most relevant here isn't how great a warrior he was early in his life or even the fact that he would die in 3019 at the gate of Erebor. What matters here for this story is that when he came down from the gate, he looked like he'd seen a ghost. And we're going to learn precisely what he saw in just a bit Right now.

[Sara]

The battle is now over and they do a little symbolic victory, bit of shoving that bag of coins in the mouth of the head of Azog. But that's pretty much all the celebrating that they can do because this is a classic Pyrrhic victory, a 50% casualty rate. And this is at the end of a six year campaign that has undoubtedly cost more lives as well.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah, I mean, you wonder how many of the Dwarves that first set out on this. This, you know, series of battles six years ago are still alive, right? Can't be very many.

[Sara]

No, that's. That's going to hurt a lot of these houses.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah. Especially when we know, as we're learn in a couple of weeks that dwarfs just don't reproduce their population very quickly. So we talked before about Thrain getting injured along with Thorin back when his son Freiren and cousin Funden were killed in that forested area that they were treated to. This is the moment that we were referring to then, which is where we see his injuries here. He's got a bad leg wound and he's got an eye that's been permanently blinded. Despite that, Thrine still counts this as a victory. And he says Khazad Dum is ours.

[Sara]

Yes. Talk about being blind. The Dwarves make it clear this wasn't a war to regain territory. This was a war for vengeance. And we've got that with Azog's death. But this victory is really bitter. This phrase, our hands are too small to hold it. That's a really potent phrase.

[Alan Sisto]

It is, isn't it?

[Sara]

Yeah. And they're right. They're absolutely right. I mean, if they tried going into Moria now, it's going to be a whole mess. And they've already been through a mess. And the Dwarves of the other houses have nothing to do with Khazad Dum unless it's to get a bit of treasure or Wereguild. And the chances of that are not great. And they say if that's not coming, then we're just going to head on home. Thank you very much indeed.

[Alan Sisto]

Now we have looked at Wereguild before. It's come up a few times. I want to take a very quick sidebar on that. I'm going to go back to the times that we saw the word first, at least historically, lyrically speaking. First. After Felaroth threw the king of the Eotheod, Laod to his death his son Eorl hunted him. This is the horse, the Lord of the Miras. Before telling him to come and get a new name. And he says, felarof, I name you. You loved your freedom and I do not blame you for that. But now you owe me a great Wereguild. And you shall surrender your freedom to me until your life's end. And he does.

[Sara]

Yep. And then there's the fifth king of Rohan's second line, Folkwina, the great grandfather of Theoden. He sent his two sons, Falkred and Fastred, to gondor to help him battle with the Haradrim, where they died. And after their death, we learn that Gondor's steward at the time, and this is Turin ii. Tolkien really did like to reuse names sent to Folkina, a rich Weregild of gold. But the one that most folks will remember is when Isildur used the idea of Weregild as a rationale for taking the One Ring, as told by Elrond in the Council. And he says, but Isildur would not listen to our counsel. This I will have as Weregild for my father and my brother, he said. And therefore, whether we would or no, he took it to treasure it.

[Alan Sisto]

And then of course, there's this example of Weregild that we just read. So I want to talk about the word just a little bit. It's not surprisingly old English uses the elements ware meaning man, and geld meaning payments or tributes.

[Sara]

Yeah. And folks, you probably come across were meaning man in Werewolf. So were guild is defined as a set sum of money as the value of a free man based on social rank and pain as compensation for his murder or injury in discharge of punishment or vengeance.

[Alan Sisto]

It's typically a set sum, often codified into law. Second, it's the value of a free man. So the killing of a slave didn't warrant were guild, maybe reimbursement for lost property, but not were guild. And of course, this is the interesting part, it was very much based on social rank. And we'll get to more on that in a second. Fourth, it was paid in discharge of punishment or vengeance. And that's really where this concept started in the early Germanic societies where this came about. The other common form of legal reparation was blood revenge. And this could wipe out entire clans. So the idea was, let's develop a means of legal reparation that would prevent these generation spanning feuds.

[Sara]

Right. Which is why wereguild is often referred to as man price or blood money. And the payment was typically made to the family of the dead man or to his clan. And we actually have laws dating back to the 10th century that give us actual prices. Right.

[Alan Sisto]

I love it. It's like a menu of.

[Sara]

Right.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah.

[Sara]

Okay, so you are one of these that's worth 10 pence. Yeah. So anyway, a Chaol, the lowest rank of freeman, had a wereguild of 200 coins. But if he was a prospering chaol, killing him would cost you 2,000 coins. And I presume chaol, that's the origin of the word churl that we see. Yes, yeah. So further up the chain, an Eldorman, what would later be known as an earl, would cost 8,000 coins and a king 30,000 coins. So, you know, you're best off if you've not got too much money. You're best off killing one of your cheaper men rather than going, don't capture.

[Alan Sisto]

The alderman or the king. Yeah. In fact, you should target, sadly, a Welshman because the prospering Welshmen were only worth 120. Non prospering Welshmen were worth 80. A landless Welshman was only 70 coins. So a king was worth more than 420 landless Welshmen. Your thoughts, Sarah?

[Sara]

You really want them? Because we'll have to do a lot of bleeping out.

[Alan Sisto]

I know. I was like, man, do I really want to go here on this?

[Sara]

No, I mean, honestly, I wish I was surprised. I know I'm not surprised.

[Alan Sisto]

How can we be surprised?

[Sara]

No, I mean, after all, the history of Wales is immersed in the way in which the English subjugated us as a people and as a country. This has been going on for centuries and I am not in the least bit stunned.

[Alan Sisto]

Nope.

[Sara]

Yeah. So I just not surprised at all.

[Alan Sisto]

We could do a sidebar on this, but we're running out of time, so we'll. Maybe we'll visit that in the P5 5.

[Sara]

Yes. And, oh, it. It does get worse, by the way. Yeah, it does. Because if the victim was a woman, compensation was typically half that of a man. Now you can just imagine what I think of that.

[Alan Sisto]

I don't even know that I have to imagine much, actually.

[Sara]

No. And also, it's absolutely stupid anyway, this idea that a woman is worth less because. All right, so, I don't know, you've lost your wife, so you get half the amount of coin that would be due if you'd lost your brother or something. But is your brother washing your socks? Looking after your kids? Cleaning the house now, are you gonna have to pay for someone to come in and do that? I bet you wish you had more money now, don't you?

[Alan Sisto]

Bet you do. I bet you do. Now, Matt and I actually spent even more time on this whole idea of Wereguild in the mega post script that we did for episodes 352 and 353. So if you're a member of the Fellowship of the podcast, you want to check out your special feed for that. The point of all this is that the dwarves of these other houses expect reasonably so to be compensated for their dead with the riches of Moria and The fact is, look, if that isn't going to happen, we're just packing up and going home.

[Sara]

And that's fair, because in all this, Thr, whose victory he owes to Dine, turns to him and basically says, you. You're not leaving too. Right. And this is. Yeah, this is where we learn what Dain saw in the gate. He acknowledges Thrain's kinship and the sacrifices that they've made, but.

[Alan Sisto]

But he makes it clear that not only will we not enter Khazad Dum, you aren't even going to enter Khazad Dum. I am the only one here who has looked through the shadow of the gate. I'm the only one who's poked my head in there. And I know that Durin's Bane, the Balrog that caused our folk to flee Mororia more than 800 years ago, is still there right?

[Sara]

Now, there's a bit of Dwarven prophecy here. The world is going to have to change and there will have to be some other power beyond the Dwarves before we walk in Moria again. And he's not wrong. But that won't stop Balin from trying. In about 200 years time.

[Alan Sisto]

I know. In only 200 years, he's thinking, what? Well, has the world changed yet? Balin, maybe you shouldn't do this.

[Sara]

Not enough.

[Alan Sisto]

Not enough. Now, as to whether Khazad Dum was ever restored in the Fourth Age. We'll get to that next time.

[Sara]

Yeah.

[Alan Sisto]

Then Barliman turned to Bob and Nob and said, but surely you will not desert me. No, said Bob. But we will not enter the Prancing Pony. You will not enter the Prancing Pony. Only I have looked through the shadow of the front door beyond the bar. It waits for you still. The mailbag. Sara, what does Bartleman have for us tonight?

[Sara]

We have a question from Christine of Connecticut.

[Alan Sisto]

All right.

[Sara]

And she asks, are the Dwarves inherently greedy and materialistic, or is that just a stereotype?

[Alan Sisto]

Oh. Oh, that's a tough one. Right, isn't it? I mean, because is it fair to say that Tolkien tapped into that stereotype in creating the Dwarves?

[Sara]

Yeah. Well, if you go back to the very, very, very, very beginning, right at the beginning of the, you know, the histories of Middle Earth and that sort of thing, the Dwarves are actually evil.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah, exactly. They're bad guys and they're very much greedy. Yeah.

[Sara]

Yep. And they're. They're driven, in fact, by their desire for gold. And even in trade, they come off as, you know, the worst of the Wall. Street businessmen kind of idea. They are Gordon Gecko with beards.

[Alan Sisto]

And now I want that as our chapter art. But we're not doing that. Megan said some really great art already with an ax. We're not going to do Gordon Gekko with a beard. That's a very good point. And that's the thing. I think that's why there's so much of that sort of leftover even in the new version of the Dwarves that are. That are good.

[Sara]

He does try and rehabilitate that a little bit when we get to Gimli, doesn't he?

[Alan Sisto]

Yes, he does.

[Sara]

I mean, think about what Gimli says about the glittering caves. That, you know, they wouldn't go in there and plunder it.

[Alan Sisto]

No. They would go in like a garden.

[Sara]

Tiny taps. Yes.

[Alan Sisto]

Maybe over the course of a century to make this place. Yeah. And I think that's the thing. Maybe it's fair to say that there is a cultural tendency towards that and that a Dwarf has to fight a little harder than somebody else to overcome that. That tendency to greed. I don't know if that's. I mean, that feels like Third Age Dwarves in the final version. But we know that they don't always succeed. I mean, all the hordes of the Dwarf Lords were founded on a ring. That made it worse. But that's the other thing. Like, okay, are they greedy inherently or.

[Sara]

Were they affected by the ring? Is a lot of this actually the effect of the Rings? Exactly, because. Yeah, I mean, it's. The rings are clearly amplifying.

[Alan Sisto]

Oh, yeah.

[Sara]

Certain character traits that are in there. But that doesn't. Yeah, but it doesn't mean that those Dwarves are inherently just greedy and materialistic.

[Alan Sisto]

It means there's a tendency in there because the ring is capitalizing on it. If they weren't greedy at all then it would capitalize on some other thing.

[Sara]

Right.

[Alan Sisto]

So it's there.

[Sara]

Yes, it's there, but it's not everything that they are. I think. I think that would be just too stereotyping. I don't think that would be right at all.

[Alan Sisto]

No.

[Sara]

And when it comes to Thorin, Thorin Oakenshield you know, when he's denying the people a share of Smaug's gold hoard it's because he's. He has succumbed to dragon sickness. It's not because he himself is an evil, materialistic bad guy. No, it's not that.

[Alan Sisto]

It's clearly not. It's that, you know, given what he says on his deathbed he's recognizing that the condition he was in earlier was the wrong condition.

[Sara]

Right.

[Alan Sisto]

And he's renouncing that materialism. Yeah.

[Sara]

Yes. So I think that certainly in the early days of creating the Dwarves, I think Tolkien was leaning into that stereotype a little bit. But I think he moved away from it the further into to his writing he got.

[Alan Sisto]

I think so too.

[Sara]

And I think that's, that's a good thing because otherwise they would be very two dimensional.

[Alan Sisto]

They would. I mean the, the villain dwarves of the early writings were very two dimensional. And I like what we have now. The, the rich, complex history, the dwarves and elves. I like that there's still a challenge of it. Right. I mean the, you know, you think about the Dwarves that killed Thingol combination of pride and greed there. Certainly, certainly. So it. But you know, the truth is we can all fall into greed.

[Sara]

So that is true.

[Alan Sisto]

Good stuff. Great question, great discussion. I'm sure we'll talk more about that in a couple of weeks when we dive into those early years of the Dwarven writings and peoples of Middle Earth. For now, folks, that does wrap it up for another episode of the Prancing Pony podcast. Please be sure to come back next week when the tale continues with Thrine and the Ring.

[Sara]

Now, Alan and I want to thank the members of Team PPP editor Jordan Reynolds Barleyman, Becca Davis, social media manager Casey Hilsey, Event and Patreon, community coordinator Katie McKenna, graphic artist Megan Collins and website guru Phil Dean.

[Alan Sisto]

And please take a minute to check out the prancingponypodcast.com that's where you're gonna find show notes, outtakes, Prancing Pony ponderings, and our online storefront where you can get PPP merch featuring all of the incredible episode artwork that Megan's been doing for the show since the start of season seven.

[Sara]

Wow. And you'll also want to visit our library page because the Prancing Pony podcast is after all, a podcast about the books. So if you're interested in a book we've mentioned on the show, you'll find a link for it in our library. And we do get a small amount of compensation when you make your purchase. We thank you for that.

[Alan Sisto]

Indeed we do. We also want to thank our patrons at the Kir Dan's contribution tier. I'll start with Demay in Alaska, Chad in Texas, Lance in New Jersey, Joseph in Michigan, Kathy from North Carolina, Carlos in California, Brian in the uk, Jerry from Washington, Joe in Washington, Irwin from the Netherlands, Ben in Minnesota, Anthony in Texas, Zaksu in Illinois, Sarah in New Jersey. Joshua in Massachusetts, Lucy in Texas, Keith in Alabama, Erica in Texas, and Vivian in California.

[Sara]

And there's also James in Massachusetts, Ann in Kentucky, Sean in New Jersey, Mason in California, Maureen from Massachusetts, Olivia in London, Robert in Arizona, Nick in Wisconsin, Lewis in South Carolina, Thomas in Germany, Craig in California, Bailey in Texas, Kevin in Massachusetts, Julie in Washington, Bruce in California, Joe in Maryland, Nathan in Arizona, and Kevin in Pennsylvania. Thank you all so very much for your support indeed.

[Alan Sisto]

Thank you.

[Sara]

Now, make sure you don't miss any episodes of the Prancing Pony Podcast. Subscribe now through Spotify, Apple Podcasts, Amazon Music, or your favorite podcast app.

[Alan Sisto]

And one last thing. As always, don't forget to send your thoughts, comments, and most of all, bigger hands to hold all this victory to barlaman@the prancingpony podcast.com and if you want.

[Sara]

Your voice literally heard, well, just send us audio of your question. Visit podinbox.com prancingponypod and record your question for us. Please be sure to still email the question to Barliman, though.

[Alan Sisto]

That's right. Now, even though Barliman's been a lot more reliable lately, there's still a lot of mail to sort through. We'll try to get to you just as soon as we're able. As always, though, this has been far too short a time to spend among such excellent and admirable listeners.

[Sara]

But until next time, how far? Well, folks.