370 – Take Me With U, Legolas

Summary

The Prancing Pony Podcast – Episode 370: "Take Me With U, Legolas"

Release Date: May 4, 2025

---

1. Introduction

In Episode 370 of The Prancing Pony Podcast, hosts Alan Sisto and Sara Brown delve deep into J.R.R. Tolkien’s intricate legendarium, specifically focusing on the history and culture of Durin’s Folk—the Dwarves. This episode, titled "Take Me With U, Legolas," continues their exploration of Appendix A from The Lord of the Rings, offering listeners a comprehensive analysis filled with insightful discussions and the hosts' characteristic humor.

---

2. Tolkien Myths and Legends Box Set

[03:40 – 04:20]

Alan introduces the recent release of HarperCollins' Tolkien Myths and Legends box set. Celebrating Christopher Tolkien's 100th birthday, this collection includes translations of significant Middle English texts for the first time in hardcover. The set encompasses:

• Sir Gawain and the Green Knight
• Pearl
• Sir Orfeo
• An Index for the History of Middle Earth

Sara adds, “These are three Middle English texts written in the 14th century. I think a lot of people will know more about Sir Gawain and the Green Knight than Pearl and Sir Orfeo.”

---

3. Translations of Middle English Texts

[04:20 – 07:01]

The hosts discuss the complexity of translating Middle English poetry. Sara elaborates on Pearl’s intricate structure, noting its "absurdly complex in technical form" (05:29). Alan is impressed by Tolkien’s ability to maintain the original's elaborate rhyme schemes and alliteration in Modern English, remarking, “It's really, really hard, but he just doesn’t want to.”

Notable Quote:

Sara Brown [05:29]: “Pearl is absurdly complex in technical form... the poem is divided into fives, in other words, groups of five stanzas.”

---

4. Legend of Sigurd and Gudrun

[07:39 – 14:21]

Alan and Sara transition to discussing The Legend of Sigurd and Gudrun, part of the same box set. They highlight Tolkien’s alliterative verse and its inspiration from Norse mythology. Alan shares a sample stanza:

“Then they vowed fast and yielding there each to each in oaths binding bliss.
There was born when Brynhild woke.
Yet fate is strong to find its end.”

Sara reflects on Tolkien’s lecture about "writing into the gaps" of existing myths, appreciating how he expanded upon incomplete stories.

---

5. Translation of Beowulf

[14:21 – 18:44]

The episode covers Tolkien’s translation of Beowulf, emphasizing that while the translation itself is more literal compared to others, the accompanying commentary is invaluable. Alan praises Tolkien’s deep knowledge:

Alan Sisto [17:08]: “What makes Tolkien's Beowulf an absolute must-read in my mind is the accompanying commentary from Tolkien.”

Sara concurs, highlighting the historical insights Tolkien provides, such as the "feuds of Ingild and the Danes."

---

6. Durin's Folk and the Dwarven Rings

[20:47 – 35:20]

The core discussion revolves around Durin's Folk, focusing on the history of the Dwarven Rings of Power. They explore the belief that Durin's ring was the first of the seven, and that it was gifted by Elven smiths rather than Sauron. However, Sauron's malice still taints the ring, “since he had aided in the forging of all the seven” (07:01).

Notable Quote:

Sara Brown [07:01]: “It was believed by the dwarves of Durin's folk to be the first of the seven that was forged, and they say that it was given to the king of Khazad Dum Durin III, by the Elven smiths themselves, and not by Sauron.”

They discuss how the rings do not dominate the Dwarves as they do Men, but instead, fuel their greed for gold, leading to internal strife and increased vengeance against those who wrong them.

---

7. Thorin Oakenshield and the Quest for Erebor

[35:20 – 65:16]

Alan reads excerpts from Appendix A detailing Thorin Oakenshield’s lineage and his quest to reclaim Erebor. They analyze Thorin’s obsession with vengeance, contrasting it with the prosperity his people enjoy in the Iron Hills. Sara notes, “Thorin just longs for something that’s unnecessary. He’s got what he needs, but he’s haunted by a hope he can’t achieve.”

Notable Quote:

Alan Sisto [23:53]: “But then he asks Thrain, are you going to come back with me to work? Work? Basically, you know, as a smith. Or are you going to go begging?”

The conversation touches on Thorin’s meeting with Gandalf, emphasizing how this "chance meeting" indirectly shapes the events leading to The Hobbit and later, The Lord of the Rings.

[67:34 – 71:30]

They discuss the implications of Thorin’s actions on Middle-earth’s broader history, including the prevention of Sauron’s dominance in the North. Alan reflects on the delicate balance of fate and chance:

Sara Brown [68:21]: “He’s been left an heir without hope because he’s following the vengeance quest passed down from his granddad.”

---

8. Dwarf Women and Demographics

[75:06 – 96:16]

A significant portion of the episode addresses the rare presence of Dwarf women in Tolkien’s works. Sara reads from Appendix A, explaining that Dwarf women are seldom named and constitute about a third of the population. This demographic skew poses challenges for population growth, especially given the Dwarves' slow reproduction rate.

Notable Quote:

Sara Brown [89:56]: “They are the only Dwarf women named in these histories. It is said that their numbers are few, which affects the growth and sustainability of their population.”

Alan humorously attempts calculations to highlight the population crisis resulting from the low number of Dwarf women and their infrequent marriages. They ponder Tolkien’s possible intentions and the implications for Middle-earth’s lore, including the lack of Dwarf women in genealogies.

---

9. Gimli and Elvish Relations

[96:41 – 113:43]

The discussion shifts to Gimli’s unique relationship with Legolas, unveiling interracial friendships that transcend historical enmities. They explore Gimli’s title, “Elf Friend,” and his reverence for Galadriel. Sara expresses excitement about Gimli’s journey to the Undying Lands, emphasizing the breaking of traditional racial barriers:

Sara Brown [104:50]: “We have heard tell that Legolas took Gimli Gloin's son with him because of their great friendship, greater than any that has been between Elf and Dwarf.”

Alan and Sara appreciate how Gimli's friendship with Legolas symbolizes a new era of cooperation and mutual respect between Elves and Dwarves, a stark contrast to their ancient grudges.

---

10. Conclusion

In wrapping up, Alan and Sara reflect on the intricate web of relationships and historical events that define Durin's Folk and their place in Middle-earth. They emphasize the enduring impact of Thorin’s quest and Gimli’s diplomatic efforts in fostering Elvish-Dwarven alliances. The hosts tease future episodes, promising deeper dives into Dwarf society and their interactions with other Middle-earth races.

Notable Closing Quote:

Sara Brown [113:43]: “This is a lovely thought. It really is. It's a true reward for tasks well done, a life well lived, and all the sacrifices that are made.”

---

Key Takeaways

• Tolkien’s Mastery in Translation: The hosts commend Tolkien’s ability to translate complex Middle English texts while preserving their original structures and themes.

• Durin's Folk’s Struggles: The episode highlights the Dwarves’ enduring battle against Sauron’s influence, their internal greed fueled by their Rings, and the cultural challenges posed by their sparse female population.

• Thorin’s Vengeance vs. Prosperity: Thorin Oakenshield embodies the tension between pursuing vengeance and fostering prosperity, a central theme in Dwarven history.

• Breaking Down Racial Barriers: Gimli’s friendship with Legolas signifies a hopeful shift towards unity among Middle-earth’s diverse races.

• Demographic Realities: The discussion on Dwarf women sheds light on the complexities of population dynamics within Tolkien’s world, raising questions about cultural practices and their implications.

---

Notable Quotes

• Sara Brown [02:22]: “Oh, I wonder if pineapple goes on pizza in Middle Earth. I'm moving on before I have things thrown at me.”

• Sara Brown [07:01]: “It was believed by the dwarves of Durin's folk to be the first of the seven that was forged, and they say that it was given to the king of Khazad Dum Durin III, by the Elven smiths themselves, and not by Sauron.”

• Alan Sisto [17:08]: “What makes Tolkien's Beowulf an absolute must-read in my mind is the accompanying commentary from Tolkien.”

• Alan Sisto [23:53]: “But then he asks Thrain, are you going to come back with me to work? Work? Basically, you know, as a smith. Or are you going to go begging?”

• Sara Brown [89:56]: “They are the only Dwarf women named in these histories. It is said that their numbers are few, which affects the growth and sustainability of their population.”

• Sara Brown [104:50]: “We have heard tell that Legolas took Gimli Gloin's son with him because of their great friendship, greater than any that has been between Elf and Dwarf.”

• Sara Brown [113:43]: “This is a lovely thought. It really is. It's a true reward for tasks well done, a life well lived, and all the sacrifices that are made.”

---

Looking Forward

In future episodes, Alan and Sara promise to continue unraveling the rich tapestry of Middle-earth’s history, focusing on the Dwarves’ intricate society, their craftsmanship, and their evolving relationships with other races. Listeners can look forward to deep analyses, engaging discussions, and the ever-present humor that makes The Prancing Pony Podcast a beloved staple for Tolkien enthusiasts.

---

Whether you're a seasoned fan or new to Tolkien's world, Episode 370 offers a treasure trove of insights into the resilient and proud Durin’s Folk. Join Alan and Sara each week as they explore the depths of Middle-earth, one story at a time.

Transcript

[Alan Sisto]

One of the nice things about being a podcaster is I get to wear really comfortable shoes when I work. And I've found some shoes that fit the bill too. Hands free Skechers slip ins. You just step into your Skechers slip ins and they're on. No bending over and struggling with your shoes. Hush with the old jokes. Look, I'm capable of doing that, but I just don't want to. And skip tying my shoes. Yes, please. And my first question was, how the heck do these things work? Well, it feels like there's an invisible built in shoehorn, so your foot slides right in and their exclusive heel pillow keeps your foot comfy and secure. Now the tech is great, but what impressed me was just how many types of shoes Skechers offers with this hands free slip ins tech. Casual shoes, work shoes, athletic shoes. Need a higher arch. Or maybe you need a wide fit like me. Or maybe you want some summer sandals for walking along the beach. Skechers has them. Great value for money and honestly, easy to find. Skechers.com, skechers stores or really wherever stylish footwear is sold. Go to Skechers.com PrancingPony and use code prancing for 20% off site. Wide standard exclusions apply. That's Skechers.com PrancingPONY Prancing Pony is all one word there. And use code prancing for 20% off now through May 30th. Hey Kristen, how's it tracking with Carvana Value tracker? What else? Oh, it's tracking, in fact. Value surge alert. Trucks up 2.5%, vans down 1.7. Just as predicted. So we gonna. I don't know, could sell. Could hold the power to always know our car's worth. Exhilarating, isn't it? Tracking always know your car's worth with Carvana value tracker. Good evening, little masters, and welcome to episode 370 of the Prancing Pony podcast, where standing by the great stake, Thrayan said to Thorin Oakenshield. Some would think this podcast dearly bought.

[Sara Brown]

What with a large pizza to go.

[Alan Sisto]

And some drinks.

[Sara Brown]

Yeah, and some drinks. Oh, I wonder if pineapple goes on pizza in Middle Earth. I'm moving on before I have things thrown at me. Folks, pull up a bench in the common room and join us. I'm Sara, the shield maiden of Rohan, and I'm here with the man of the west who is still deciding between the anvil and begging his bread, Alan Sisto.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah, I might as well take the Anvil. I mean, really, why not? Folks, join us as we continue our look at the Dwarves and the story of Durin's Folk as we actually finish Appendix A to the Lord of the Rings. Started that all the way back at. In September, I believe.

[Sara Brown]

Yeah. Are we, are we going to finish it? Are we sure we're going to finish it? Are we absolutely going to finish it?

[Alan Sisto]

Well, not counting the three episode sidebar that we're going to be going into on the Dwarves to sort of supplement.

[Sara Brown]

Appendix A. Yeah, yes, yes, but it's not actually Appendix A, so I think we can say what going to finish it. Anyway, folks, no matter how you arrived, you're all welcome. Here in the common room at the Prancing Pony Podcast. We are reading and talking our way through Middle Earth with plenty of speculation and bad jokes along the way.

[Alan Sisto]

No doubt about that, folks. We do love our deep dives into the lore, discussing our favorite themes and a whole lot more.

[Sara Brown]

Yeah. But we do try to keep it light and fun, like a couple of friends chatting at the pub over a beer. And we're glad you've joined us.

[Alan Sisto]

Indeed, and I'm sure you'll be glad you joined as well. But before we get to tonight's chapter discussion, it's time to visit our shelves to take a look at some kingly gifts. Now, a couple of weeks back, on April 24, HarperCollins released Tolkien Myths and Legends, the next box set in the series that had previously brought us individual hardcover copies of the history of Middle Earth for the first time in, well, quite a while. Those first four box sets of the history of Middle earth included all 12 volumes, plus the Silmarillion and Unfinished Tales and an index for the history of Middle Earth. They were all published in honor of Christopher Tolkien's 100th birthday, and HarperCollins is continuing to celebrate that legacy with this box set.

[Sara Brown]

Now, included in this set are four volumes. The first one is Sir Gawain and the Green Knight, which of course also includes Pearl and Sir Orpheo. And these are three Middle English texts written in the 14th century. I think a lot of people, and you'll probably agree with me, Alan, a lot of people will know a bit more about Sir Gawain and the Green Knight than they will about Pearl and Sir Orpheo.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah. If nothing else, just because it's been a little bit more in the. The sort of popular consciousness. There have been adaptations, I believe, or at least there's one not too long ago. I think people are a little more familiar with it maybe even from high school reading or college reading at least.

[Sara Brown]

Yeah, yeah. So would you like me to tell you a little bit about Pearl?

[Alan Sisto]

Yes, Pearl and Sir Orpheo, actually, if you've got some knowledge there, too.

[Sara Brown]

Well, I can certainly tell you a little bit about Pearl because again, I'm assuming that people know that bit more about Sir Gawain and the Green Knight. But the thing about Pearl is it's absolutely beyond difficult structure that Tolkien, actually, he wrote to his Aunt Jane Neave, and he said, and I'm quoting from that letter now, that's the letter written on the 18th of July 1962.

[Alan Sisto]

Okay.

[Sara Brown]

And he says, pearl is absurdly complex in technical form.

[Alan Sisto]

Coming from Tolkien. That's wild talking.

[Sara Brown]

Absurdly complex. Right. This, now you've got to get this. This right. This is the structure. The stanzas have 12 lines with only three rhymes. There's an octet of four couplets rhyming a B and A quartet rhyming B.C.

[Alan Sisto]

Oh, my goodness.

[Sara Brown]

In addition, each line has internal alliteration. It occasionally, but rarely fails in the original. And if that's not enough, the poem is divided into fives, in other words, groups of five stanzas, except for one in which there's six. We'll pass over that because, you know.

[Alan Sisto]

Obviously somebody lost count that time. Right?

[Sara Brown]

Yeah. Now, within a five stanza group, the chief word of the last line must be echoed in the first line of the following stanza.

[Alan Sisto]

Oh, my goodness. So many layers of complication.

[Sara Brown]

The last line of the five group is echoed at the beginning of the next. And the first line of all must wind up echoed in the last line of all.

[Alan Sisto]

Wow.

[Sara Brown]

I know. I mean, just getting your head around the structure is insane.

[Alan Sisto]

So he's taking a Middle English poem that follows those rules and then he's trying to implement those same rules using modern English. Yes. And he's able to do it. It's just really, really hard.

[Sara Brown]

The next bit, he says to his Aunt Jane, I think this is a bit. It did make me chuckle a little bit. He says scholars judged that the metrical form of Pearl was almost impossibly difficult to write in, though the Pearl poet managed 101 stanzas, by the way.

[Alan Sisto]

Wow.

[Sara Brown]

And quite impossible to render in modern English. No scholars, he says, or nowadays poets have any experience in composing themselves in exacting metres. I made up a few stanzas in the metre to show that composition in it was not at any rate impossible. Right.

[Alan Sisto]

Because that's what Tolkien does.

[Sara Brown]

It's. Yeah, it's like, okay, challenge acceptance.

[Alan Sisto]

Right. It's impossible. Here's how you do it.

[Sara Brown]

Yes, exactly.

[Alan Sisto]

Oh, man.

[Sara Brown]

So, I mean, that just. That just made me chuckle a little bit.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah. That's fantastic.

[Sara Brown]

It is, it is.

[Alan Sisto]

That's just one of the three poems that are included, and it's a smaller one, like you said, it's 101 stanzas. So gambler and the Green Knight is much longer than that. Yeah. All three of these Middle English texts. And my understanding is that Sir Gawain and the Green Knight and Pearl were written around the same time. Sir Orfeo is a little bit later, but still Middle English.

[Sara Brown]

Yeah. In fact, apparently. And again, I'd have to defer to scholars because this is not my area.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah.

[Sara Brown]

But apparently the belief is that the poet who wrote Sir Gawain is the same poet who wrote Pearl.

[Alan Sisto]

Right.

[Sara Brown]

They're both around the sort of 14th century. They're both alliterative, although the Pearl poem has a much stricter alliterative structure, as you just heard.

[Alan Sisto]

Right, right.

[Sara Brown]

But, yes. So the chances are good, and I think what they must have done is look at. And somebody could correct me on this and please feel free to do so. That is not a problem to me because this is not my area. They must have looked at patterning of words and phrases and uses of rhymes and things like that, shown that there's enough similarity in style, etc, between the two poems to say that, okay, this.

[Alan Sisto]

Is definitely, certainly the same author and a different author than Sir Orfeo, which is dated perhaps a little later.

[Sara Brown]

Which is dated much later, closer to.

[Alan Sisto]

1400, than the actual 14th century.

[Sara Brown]

Yeah. But Tolkien, he translated all three of these from Middle English into Modern English. And just to add another little nugget of information, one of the reasons why he was so drawn to Sir Gawain and the Green Knight, and I believe Pearl also, is that the particular Middle English dialect that they're written in is from the Midlands, which is where Tolkien felt himself to be from.

[Alan Sisto]

Yes. Which is more suffield. Right. His mother's family.

[Sara Brown]

His mother's family, that's right, yes. So that's why he was first drawn to them, and I think that's why he really enjoyed them. But back to the book.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah, yeah.

[Sara Brown]

Right.

[Alan Sisto]

And this is just one book in the set. Yeah, that's.

[Sara Brown]

This is just the first book in the set. Yes. It was Originally published in 1975, and as I said, it contains his verse translations, including putting that Pearl poem into that structure of these three Middle English texts that are written in the 14th century. And other than the original 1975 hardcover, this volume, which also includes the text of the 1953 lecture that Tolkien gave on Sir Gawain, was primarily available in paperback only apart from the 2020 Deluxe Edition. So it's nice to have it now in a regular hardback.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah, it really is. I mean, because you weren't going to be able to find that first edition. It was not a big printing, obviously more of a scholarly work. And the only other hardback available was that deluxe cloth edition that HarperCollins came out with a few years ago.

[Sara Brown]

That's right, yeah. And my last little nugget about Pearl, and then I swear I'll be quiet about Pearl.

[Alan Sisto]

No, it's all right.

[Sara Brown]

Is that Tolkien? When he mentioned to his aunt Jaden Suffield that he had a go at writing in that style to show that it wasn't impossible. The poem that he is referring to is the Nameless Land, which you can find in volume two of the poetry.

[Alan Sisto]

Oh, okay, yeah.

[Sara Brown]

And it became eventually, and it took about, oh, more than 20 years to get this far, it became the Song of Elfwina.

[Alan Sisto]

Oh, wow.

[Sara Brown]

But when. Right at the very beginning, when it was written as the Nameless Land, he used the Pearl poem structure.

[Alan Sisto]

Strict, Right, that really, really hard structure you talked about.

[Sara Brown]

Exactly. But by the time he got to calling it the Song of Elfwina, he'd left it behind.

[Alan Sisto]

Okay, so that's in the collected poems of J.R.R. tolkien. The one that Skull and Hammond recently.

[Sara Brown]

Released in volume two. That's right.

[Alan Sisto]

Excellent. Moving on to another book in this box set. Appropriately enough, for Myths and Legends, this also includes the 2009 release, the Legend of Sigurd and Gudrun. And if you've not read this, folks, you're missing out on a heck of a story. Well, actually, two stories. The book includes two narrative poems, likely originally written by Tolkien in the 1930s and inspired by the Legend of Sigurd and the fall of the Niflungs in Norse mythology. And they're in alliterative verse, so, you know, I enjoy reading them. I'm actually, I've pulled a quick stanza here just to give you a feel for this faith. Then they vowed fast and yielding there each to each in oaths binding bliss. There was born when Brynhild woke. Yet fate is strong to find its end.

[Sara Brown]

Oh, wonderful. You can almost see folks sitting around a table, a wooden table, bashing their large mugs of ale to that, can't you?

[Alan Sisto]

Exactly. And just waiting for the bard to continue the adventure. Now, Tolkien calls these two works the New Lay of the Volsungs and the New Lay of Gudrun. And you get both, plus commentary from Christopher, along with two shorter poem fragments in Old English and an introduction based on his lecture manuscripts to one of the inspirations for much of the Legendarium, the Elder Edda.

[Sara Brown]

Oh, have you read the Elder Edda?

[Alan Sisto]

I've not read the whole thing. I have read his introduction to it. I'm. It's on my list of things I really, really want to tackle. Not in the original, of course, I'm not.

[Sara Brown]

Oh, Lordy, no.

[Alan Sisto]

Not a Norseman.

[Sara Brown]

Not that good at languages. No, no, no. It's. It's. It's on my list as well. And. And I'm ashamed to say that although I have read the Legend of Sigurd and Guthrin, because I've had to.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah.

[Sara Brown]

Use it as part of teaching for Signum. I don't know it as well as I should.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah. Same. I've read it once or twice, and it's just. It is really good. And you can see some of the inspiration and some of the connections, and you start to spot little moments here and there that. That parallel moments in the. In the Legendarium. It's really worth reading, for sure.

[Sara Brown]

Yeah. When it first came out, I went to a wonderful lecture by Tom Shippy, who was talking about this. Yeah. Oh, it was fantastic. And his lecture was about writing into the gaps, and he was talking about how Tolkien took these stories, which had a lot of gaps in them.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah.

[Sara Brown]

And that he expanded the stories by filling in some of the gaps that there were. I mean, you know, you can listen to Tom Shippy talking all day. Right.

[Alan Sisto]

I know he could. He could tell me how to fold socks and I'd still listen to him.

[Sara Brown]

It would be quite compelling. And he would probably throw in some alliterative verse about it, too.

[Alan Sisto]

He certainly would. He'd find something. Yeah.

[Sara Brown]

Well, what would a collection of legends be without the Fall of Arthur? Now, this work goes back quite a bit. It's apparently abandoned by Tolkien in the mid-1930s. No one knew that this work, Tolkien's only foray into the legends of Arthur, King of Britain, actually existed until 1981, when the letters were first released. And there, in letter 165 to Houghton Mifflin, he talks about a literative verse and mentions his hope that he will one day finish his long poem, the Fall of Arthur, and even unfinished, because, of course, it's unfinished. This is Tolkien we're talking about.

[Alan Sisto]

Exactly.

[Sara Brown]

It's still Long. There's nearly a thousand verses imitating the old English Beowulf meter in modern English. And Christopher Tolkien edited this volume and it was Originally published in 2013. Yeah, and how's this for a line that while it comes from the fall of Arthur, it certainly carries a hint of Mordor with it. The endless east in anger woke and black thunder born in dungeons under mountains of menace Moved above them halting doubtful there on high saw they won Horsemen wild in windy clouds gray and monstrous, grimly riding shadow helmed to war shapes disastrous.

[Alan Sisto]

Oh, I like that. Good reading too literate a verse is always so fun. I really. But everybody who listens to the Prancing Pony knows that.

[Sara Brown]

Yeah. Oh, it is, it is. Do you know Tolkien is single handedly responsible for me liking a literature verse? Yeah, same because I came across it in my younger years, which is a long time ago, and thought, I don't get it. And then I read Tolkien's alliterative verse and then I understood something. I have to read it aloud.

[Alan Sisto]

Yes, it's like the rest of the legendarium, frankly. You read Tolkien aloud. There's a musicality to it, a rhythm and. With alliteration. With alliterative verse. But also you'll see once you read the alliter verse out loud and you read the legendarium out loud, as you're reading through the Lord of the Rings, you'll discover more and more how he uses alliteration in standard prose where you're not really looking for verse, but you start to hear those sounds and it's this rhythmic. Ah, it's just, it's gorgeous.

[Sara Brown]

It is absolutely beautiful. But my advice to my students these days is always, if you looking at some illiterative verse, read it aloud.

[Alan Sisto]

Yes, you must.

[Sara Brown]

And then you will get where the stresses are meant to be, you'll get where the rhythm is coming from. But you don't get it if you just stare at it on the page.

[Alan Sisto]

I can't anyway, I didn't, I know for, for decades reading Tolkien. I didn't. But speaking of alliterative verse, the final volume in Tolkien's Myths and Legends box set is Tolkien's translation of Beowulf. Now this was Originally published in 2014, those completed by Tolkien in 1926. He just never considered it for publication. And it is fair to say, regardless of whether you, you know, how much you like the translation, the translation itself isn't really the highlight of the book. The translation seems to have been meant more to help his students in his Beowulf class rather than Writing a translation for publication, like I said, he never even thought about trying to publish, is intended to be a much more faithful literal translation, maintaining the Old English phrasing and word order. Whereas the more popular translations, like Seamus Haney's, which I really do like, it's a very wonderful story to read, those translations are more about literary effect and they carry the story rather than the verbal structure. So, I mean, it is a little bit different as a translation. But what makes Tolkien's Beowulf an absolute must read in my mind is the accompanying commentary from Tolkien. He shows this depth of knowledge of the source material. He's talking about these details like the feuds of Ingild and the Danes or the way that the heathen and scriptural traditions both shaped the monsters. He talks about these things like he was there at the epic poem's original writing. His knowledge shines through. And you remember he was a BAAL scholar. I mean, extraordinary. If he never wrote a word of fiction, we might not know who he is, but scholars would sure know who he is.

[Sara Brown]

Absolutely.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah.

[Sara Brown]

And his work on Beowulf would be that.

[Alan Sisto]

It would absolutely be like just seminal work. So read the commentary, don't just read the poem. But definitely, if you don't have these volumes already, this is great. If you do, it's still a nice set because you get the hardcover of Sir Gawain and the Green Knight for the first time and you get a few other goodies, right?

[Sara Brown]

Yes. Yeah. And like the other box sets in this series, each volume comes with a reversible dust jacket. And like the others, the box set will be released in the US by HarperCollins US imprint William Morrow in June.

[Alan Sisto]

You can always get it. Even if you're in the States, you can always just order the HarperCollins from Amazon UK or Blackwell's or anybody like that. But I do like the reversible dust jackets. That continues in the tradition of the four boxes for history, Middle Earth. You also have a really nicely illustrated slip case. There is one more coming. My understanding is there's this. This whole deal for Christopher Tolkien's centenary was a six box set, you know, line. So we've got four that are the history of Middle Earth. We got this one that's the Legends and Myths or Myths and Legends. And the last one is the Great Tales. So we'll see later in the year.

[Sara Brown]

Yep. And do I have that on pre order?

[Alan Sisto]

Of course you do. Yes, I do as well.

[Sara Brown]

Yeah. But they do look nice on a shelf, don't they, these collections?

[Alan Sisto]

All matching together. And I like the reversible dust jackets. It's really nice.

[Sara Brown]

Yeah, they're very pretty. They are. I do like the way they look on my shelf. So yes, I will absolutely be getting that final box set. I wonder what they'll next put out for us that we'll absolutely have to pre order as well.

[Alan Sisto]

They know that we will too. That's the thing.

[Sara Brown]

Yes. Yeah. I mean Tolkien is definitely a cash cow for them, but for a reason.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah, for exactly. For very good reason. And I'll. As the shelves behind me illustrate, I'm definitely going to buy whatever they put out. For sure.

[Sara Brown]

Well, yes. Yeah, that's. I'm afraid that is a given.

[Alan Sisto]

That is.

[Sara Brown]

But having dealt with the kingly gifts of those books, how about we get to our discussion today? Do you want to start with our first reading?

[Alan Sisto]

I will. I'll pick up where we left off after we covered the first half of Appendix A3 on Durin's Folk when the dreadful fires were in ashes, the allies went away to their own countries, and Daen Ironfoot led his father's people back to the Iron Hills. Then, standing by the great stake, Thrain said to Thorin Oakenshield, some would think this head dearly bought. At least we have given our kingdom for it. Will you come back with me to the anvil, or will you beg your bread at proud doors? To the anvil, answered Thorin, the hammer will at least keep the arms strong until they can wield sharper tools again. So Thrain and Thorin, with what remained of their following, among whom were Balin and Glowin, returned to Dunland, and soon afterwards they removed and wandered in Eriador, until at last they made a home in exile in the east of the Ered Luin. Beyond the Lune of iron were most of the things that they forged in those days. But they prospered after a fashion, and their numbers slowly increased. But as Thror had said, the ring needed gold to breed gold, and of that or any other precious metal they had little or none of this ring. Something may be said here. It was believed by the dwarves of Durin's folk to be the first of the seven that was forged, and they say that it was given to the king of Khazad Dum Durin iii, by the Elven smiths themselves, and not by Sauron, though doubtless his evil power was on it, since he had aided in the forging of all the seven. But the possessors of the ring did not display it or speak of it. And they seldom surrendered it until near death, so that others did not know for certain where it was bestowed. Some thought that it had remained in Khazad Dum, in the secret tombs of the kings, if they had not been discovered and plundered. But among the kindred of Durin's heir, it was believed wrongly that Thror had worn it when he rashly returned there. What then had become of it? They did not know. It was not found on the body of Azog. Nonetheless, it may well be, as the dwarves now believe, that Sauron by his arts had discovered who had this Ring king the last to remain free. And that the singular misfortunes of the heirs of Durin were largely due to his malice. For the dwarfs had proved untamable. By this means the only power over them that the rings wielded was to inflame their hearts with a greed of gold and precious things, so that if they lacked them, all other good things seemed profitless. And they were filled with wrath and desire for vengeance on all who deprived them. But they were made from their beginning of a kind to resist most steadfastly any domination. Though they could be slain or broken, they could not be reduced to shadows, enslaved to another will. And for the same reason their lives were not affected by any ring, to live either longer or shorter because of it all the more did Sauron hate the possessors and desire to dispossess them.

[Sara Brown]

Oh, there's some stuff to talk about the effect of that ring.

[Alan Sisto]

Definitely, definitely going to talk about that.

[Sara Brown]

But you skipped the first paragraph in your reading. But we should go ahead and cover this post battle summary here. So as last week suggested, the dwarves big reunion had come to an end with the death of Azog. And the other houses were not interested at all in reclaiming Moria. And even the ones of Durin's folk made it clear we are not going into that place. And neither are you.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah, exactly. I'm not going there. We're not going there. And guess what? You're not going there. So they do something here that. Well, it may make some logical sense, but it's going to be hard on them to do. They they strip the dead dwarves of their arms and armor and obviously don't want the orcs to get any of their equipment. But given how many had died, we get this mention of how the dwarves stories talk about how every one of these dwarves that survived left bowed under a heavy burden.

[Sara Brown]

Yeah, that's not just a physical burden.

[Alan Sisto]

Oh, it's not just the weight. I Mean, these are. These are Dwarves. They're. They're made for that. They can carry, you know, 100 pounds of gear for a month and it. And barely feel it. This is the burden of their dead. The burden of their.

[Sara Brown]

Their loss, their sorrow. Yeah. So bent double under the sorrow of all of that loss.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah. And the physical burden is just a reminder of that, a tangible reminder of. Of how many of their people had they lost, not just at the Battle of Nandirian, but over the course of the years that this series of battles took place from Gundabad all the way down as they pursued the vengeance against Azog.

[Sara Brown]

Right. You've also got to think what it is that they lost all of these comrades for.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah.

[Sara Brown]

I mean, they don't regain Moria. They cannot regain Moria. So in the end, the purpose was stuck. Really boils down to revenge, doesn't it?

[Alan Sisto]

That's exactly what it is. And we'll talk a little bit about why that's important for the Dwarves specifically later on today. But, yeah, they're not regaining territory, though. They are kind of. Maybe they don't say this, but I suspect that Gundabad alone was very important for them. That's the birthplace of Duran.

[Sara Brown]

Right.

[Alan Sisto]

And clearing Gundabad out, significant is very significant. But other than perhaps a little bit of regaining territory, this was strictly about vengeance. So after they carry away the equipment, the arms, the armor, they did something that was very, very unusual for Dwarves. They built funeral pyres. They burned their dead. That's not something that Dwarves did. And the footnote makes it clear, this was grievous to the dwarves. They ordinarily would have built tombs.

[Sara Brown]

Right. Which is. I mean, this is clearly a cultural moray, isn't it?

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah. I mean, certainly burning the dead is not an uncommon thing in certain cultures, but for the Dwarves, it was uncommon and grievous.

[Sara Brown]

Right. The footnote tells us traditionally they will lay their dead only in stone, not in earth. So they don't even just bury their dead. It has to be entombed in stone. And just, you know, building that many stone tombs would have taken them years.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah, it would have been another decade just to literally bury their dead. That's not something they can do practically.

[Sara Brown]

No, no, but I mean, doesn't that say to us that there haven't been that many huge battles with that much enormous loss in their past? Yeah, if this is something that really, they. They don't do.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah. You wonder if maybe previous battles would have taken place underground and they would have. It would have been relatively easy in that case to, to bury their dead in stone tombs, but to, to do this outdoors, to build, you know, even cairns would have been nigh to impossible.

[Sara Brown]

Especially as they can't go into Moria to get any stone there.

[Alan Sisto]

Exactly, yeah. They're not going there.

[Sara Brown]

So they burned the bodies of their fallen comrades rather than leave the bodies to be devoured.

[Alan Sisto]

Well, yeah, I mean, I guess if those are your choices. Right. Leave these for the, the wild animals and the orcs and you know. Or burn them.

[Sara Brown]

Yes, it's the lesser of the two evils, isn't it?

[Alan Sisto]

Exactly. Of course this really unusual thing that they had to do led to a historical reference later on. Those who fell in Azanul Bazaar were honored in memory. And to this day a dwarf will say proudly of one of his sires, he was a burned dwarf. And that is enough. Man, that carries some weight, doesn't it?

[Sara Brown]

It really does. And I suppose if you have to do something that is so outside of your cultural norm, then you have to make something of it.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah.

[Sara Brown]

And that truly is making something of it, isn't it?

[Alan Sisto]

Sure is, yeah.

[Sara Brown]

Yeah. I mean the damage from this battle is so wide ranging. The trees that they cut down in the valley never grew back and the smoke from the fires could be seen all the way in Lorien. I'm sure they weren't very happy about that.

[Alan Sisto]

No, I'm sure they weren't. I'm trying to figure out why the trees wouldn't grow back. That just seems unusual. Like did the trees themselves. Like there's something about the loss the Dwarves here at this battle and the significance of this battle that's reflected in the way the environment processes it.

[Sara Brown]

Right. And we do know that Tolkien does use the landscape as a living, breathing Persona within the text, especially near here.

[Alan Sisto]

You know, I'm thinking of Caradhras and Moria and you know, I mean like if there's a place in Middle Earth where the land feels like it's own character, it's this place.

[Sara Brown]

Yes, there's. I think there's a response here from the land to the destruction to the horror. And then of course they cut down a whole load of trees to burn the Dwarves and this, you know, there's a whole lot about trees not particularly wanting to be cut down and all that kind of thing. But this is the land, I think, responding to the horror of this battle.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah, that makes sense. I can, can certainly buy that.

[Sara Brown]

Now, picking up where we started reading. Once the fires were finished, the Dwarves dispersed with Dain leading Nines folk to the Iron Hills. And in the meantime, Thrain, Dain's cousin and the heir to Thror, whose death began this enormous vengeance crusade. He stands next to the stake with Azog's head on it. And he speaks to his son.

[Alan Sisto]

Nice little conversation piece you have mounted there, dad. Yes, and he's acknowledging that this revenge has cost their kingdom. Now this is just a question for discussion. Like figuring out do we even know anything here? Wasn't Erebor already gone? What do you mean this cost you your kingdom? Smaug destroyed Erebor a long time ago. You've all been in homeless wanderings for nearly 30 years by now.

[Sara Brown]

Is it. Is he referring to. I'm speculating here. Is he possibly referring to the fact that having done what they've done and know what they now know about Moria, there's an understanding that even Moria cannot be reclaimed. Everything okay?

[Alan Sisto]

So it's cost them this kingdom. The kingdom of Moria, rather than their kingdom.

[Sara Brown]

You know, maybe. Yeah. Like I said, I'm kind of speculating because you're right. Erebor is long gone. They don't have a home.

[Alan Sisto]

No, they've been wandering around for, you know, quite some time. Three decades now. So then he asks Thorn, are you going to come back with me to work? Work? Basically, you know, as a smith. Or are you going to go begging? I mean, come on, what kind of question is that? Right?

[Sara Brown]

Yes. And you know, he gets the answer that I think we would expect. It's not much of a question for any dwarf, of course. Thorin says to the Anvil. Yeah, I mean he. On a practical level, he knows it's a way to keep himself strong and ready for future opportunities.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah, yeah, but of course, his pride. He's not going to be. I mean, come on, what's he going to do? Go knock on the doors of the elves? Can you give me some food?

[Sara Brown]

Yeah, I'm a hungry dwarf. And I'm homeless.

[Alan Sisto]

We know what happens when Thrandu encounters them later. What were you doing in my forest? Starving. Why did you raid her parties? Because I was starving.

[Sara Brown]

Starving.

[Alan Sisto]

So clearly not an excuse.

[Sara Brown]

Yeah, you can't tell an ascetic elf that your reason for doing something was cuz you were hungry.

[Alan Sisto]

Exactly.

[Sara Brown]

Have a spinach leaf. Off you go.

[Alan Sisto]

So with Dyne leading most of what's left of Durin's house up to the Iron Hills in the North. Threyne, Thorin and what's left of their people and we get a couple of named Dwarves from Bilbo's later adventure, Balin and Gloin. They head across the mountains back into Dunland, where they were before all this. And from there they head north into Eriador, then settle in the east of the Blue Mountains. That's the Ered Luin.

[Sara Brown]

Now, they did all right for themselves there. Yeah, they did a lot of smithing with iron and growing their wealth and their numbers, but slowly. Right. This is not something that happens overnight. And more on that later. But the footnote sheds light on why their numbers slowly increased. And this is one of my favorite footnotes because it mentions somebody who doesn't otherwise get a mention.

[Alan Sisto]

Yes.

[Sara Brown]

And it says they had very few women folk. Dis. Thrine's daughter was there. She was the mother of Fili and Keely, who were born in the Ered Luin. Thorin had no wife.

[Alan Sisto]

Definitely more on that.

[Sara Brown]

Definitely more on that.

[Alan Sisto]

A nice long sidebar on that later on. That'll be very interesting to talk about.

[Sara Brown]

Yes, indeed.

[Alan Sisto]

Now, their wealth wasn't growing quickly either. I mean, it was growing, but it wasn't growing quickly. And that's because the text reminds us that what Thror had said was true. The ring needed gold to breed gold. And they didn't have much, if any gold, really didn't have much of any precious metals at all. Speaking of the ring, though, we get a really brief sidebar on the Dwarven Seven here, and we definitely have some things to talk about.

[Sara Brown]

Yeah, because we're told that Durin's folk believed that their ring was the first of those seven to be forged. I mean, being Durin's folk, I can see why they would believe that, and that it was given directly to Durin III, who was then king of Khazad Dum around second age 1500, which. Which is about 4800 years previous to that.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah, nearly five full millennia now. Of course, we don't actually know. I mean, Tolkien doesn't tell us if this is actually the case. It does make sense. Like you said, Durin being the father of the dwarves to begin with. I mean, the eldest of the father, Right? You've got the Seven Fathers, but Durin's the oldest. And certainly the story of the Rings of Power found in the history of Galadriel and Celeborn actually suggests the opposite, that Sauron actually grabbed all seven of the rings from Celebrimbor after torturing him. But we also don't not know that it wasn't the case. You know, it really could go either way, as to whether this was the first of the Seven and given to Durin III directly or given to Durin III by Sauron after he took them.

[Sara Brown]

From Celebrimbor, it's not like Tolkien wrote it down for us and said, this is what happened.

[Alan Sisto]

Which is a shame. He could have. If he'd written it down, we would have to say this is how it happened.

[Sara Brown]

Yeah. But it's kind of fun speculating about it because. Yeah. Yeah. If it's one particular way it goes, then that gives us one type of story. If it's the other way that it goes, it gives us a totally different story.

[Alan Sisto]

There's so many of those, some say, or it is said, or situations where there are literally two opposing stories. I think like the origin stories of the Elessar, you know, we'll get into next season when we get into more unfinished tales, but this is one of those where we just don't know. And. And that's okay. We know what Durin's folk believe, and that's really what matters for the story.

[Sara Brown]

Yeah. This makes total sense, though. I think we've talked about this before. There are gaps in the histories, and that is normal.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah. Because that's what real histories do.

[Sara Brown]

We are talking about ancient history, and, you know, not everything got written down. So. Yeah, some say this and some say.

[Alan Sisto]

That, and that's kind of why I pointed out, you know, the fact that this was almost five millennia ago. Of course, we don't know for sure what actually happened. Do we in our primary world know every single thing that happened five millennia ago? No, we don't. We have very few clues as to what actually happened 4800 years in our past.

[Sara Brown]

Absolutely.

[Alan Sisto]

Why would Duran's folk have a 100% ironclad guarantee that this is how it went down?

[Sara Brown]

Right. Makes total sense to me. Yeah. But, of course, whether it was given to Duran III by the Smiths of Oregion or by Sauron, in the end, that's. That doesn't really matter, does it? Because Sauron was involved in the forging of the Seven, so, quote, doubtless his evil power was on it.

[Alan Sisto]

Doubtless, yeah. I mean, there's zero room for speculation there.

[Sara Brown]

Yeah.

[Alan Sisto]

Now, those who possess the ring from Durin the Third on down, whether it was Sauron who gave it to him or not, they never showed it. Which also suggests, by the way, that they probably never wore. Sounds like something they just kept totally secret.

[Sara Brown]

Yeah. Because if they wore it, then people would see it, and then they would.

[Alan Sisto]

Know exactly because these were not invisible rings and they didn't confer invisibility. That's more about the nature of the Dwarves than it is about the nature of the rings. But they never even spoke about the rings. And they didn't give. I'm sorry, I said rings, plural.

[Sara Brown]

That.

[Alan Sisto]

We're not talking about the other six Dwarven rings. We're talking about Durin's. The ring belonging to Durin's house. So those possessors never spoke about the ring. And they typically didn't even give it up until they were very near death.

[Sara Brown]

Right. I mean, these acts of secrecy kept its existence in doubt.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah.

[Sara Brown]

And some thought it was in the Tombs of the Kings in Khazad.

[Alan Sisto]

Right? Why not? Yeah.

[Sara Brown]

Right. I mean, if you know that something does exist or certainly once existed but it hasn't been seen for generations, then. Yeah, yeah, you're going to get speculation. But in fact, some of Dorian's folk believe that Thror had it when he went back to Khazad Doom and got separated from his head. But we are explicitly told that this was not the case, though.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah, yeah. Obviously later on we'll get the real story. But since that wasn't true, it's not a surprise to learn that the ring was not on Azog's body after Daen slew him.

[Sara Brown]

Right. The text says it may well be, which is another way of saying some say, and that the Dwarves believe this to be true. And it does seem like this is the case. Sauron had figured out who had the last of the seven Thror and that his enmity was a big reason behind the bad luck of Durin's folk. Yeah, that makes sense.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah, it does make sense. I mean, certainly logical that Sauron figured it out. Right?

[Sara Brown]

Yeah.

[Alan Sisto]

I mean, I'm still wondering though, and maybe you could help me try to chew through this one. How much of what happened to Durin's folk was really a result of his malice? I mean, let's assume that Sauron did figure out Thror's got the ring. Okay, now what? Sauron is either in Dol Guldur or later on. Actually, no, he doesn't leave Dol Guldur until after Thor's passing. So he's in Dol Guldur, Smaug. I mean, I know that Gandalf talks about how Sauron could use the dragon to great effect, I think. Or to terrible effect. But had he already? Do we think there's a connection there?

[Sara Brown]

It's possible. I mean, dragons as we've seen through the Silmarillion. Etc. They do their own thing.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah, they really do. There's independent a creature practically.

[Sara Brown]

Exactly. And there is a treasure to be had in Erebor.

[Alan Sisto]

The word of it spread as we talked about last week. Dragons do what dragons do.

[Sara Brown]

Dragons do what? Yeah, a dragon's got to do what a dragon's got to do. So I think there's every possibility that Sauron could take advantage of the fact that Smaug is there but Sauron putting him there seems very unlikely.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah, it's not like a chess piece to move on the board or anything.

[Sara Brown]

No, no, I don't think so. But also, there are a lot of grim things that happen to Durin's Folk.

[Alan Sisto]

There are.

[Sara Brown]

And could this be a result of Sauron's malice? Sure, sure. Yes. Yeah. Because we know that Sauron's malice is not just, you know, a guy in a dark robe sitting in a corner in Dol Guldur going, I don't like Dwarves. It resonates out from where he is.

[Alan Sisto]

And all evil creatures are influenced by that to some degree or another.

[Sara Brown]

Exactly.

[Alan Sisto]

Consciously or not, you know.

[Sara Brown]

Right.

[Alan Sisto]

I mean, like we talked about last week the speculation that the Balrog had been awoken by Sauron's evil by him being awake to begin with that his strength stirred the Balrog and that perhaps Durin's Folk just freed it from its prison. So, yeah, I see what you're talking about. That it's just the general sort of malignance that emanates from Dol Guldur.

[Sara Brown]

Yeah, yes. Or good word like that.

[Alan Sisto]

Yes, that makes sense. I can. I can certainly buy that. Because Smaug. I can just see Smaug. He gets the memo from Sauron. He's like, I'm not doing what you tell me. Like I care. Yeah, exactly.

[Sara Brown]

I got my gold, I got my jewels.

[Alan Sisto]

It's a really comfy bed. I don't need to move. I don't want to move.

[Sara Brown]

Tell Shadow man to bog off.

[Alan Sisto]

Seriously.

[Sara Brown]

Yeah. No, I don't see Smaug doing Sauron's bidding. No, I can see Smaug doing something that Sauron would like him to do. If it suited Sauron.

[Alan Sisto]

Yes, if it benefits Smaug 100%. Yeah, yeah. That's just dragons for you. I mean, you know, even Glaurung. Yeah, sure, he was more directly connected to Morgoth than Smaug is to Sauron but he still is very much his own thing.

[Sara Brown]

Oh, yes.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah. All right, let's get back, though. To the text. The text explains that the seven Rings did not work to bring the dwarves under Sauron's control the way that the nine rings did for men. In fact, the only real impact we read is that it inflames their hearts with a greed of gold and precious things so much that if they don't have that wealth, it doesn't matter what else they have, they cannot be happy.

[Sara Brown]

Right.

[Alan Sisto]

Sad.

[Sara Brown]

It is. I mean it shows that there is. And I'm going to use your word because your word is great. There is a malignancy about the Ring that has been touched by Sauron. That it does have an effect on them. It just has different effects on them than it would have on another creature because of who the dwarfs are and how they were made. And we will talk about that a lot more next episode.

[Alan Sisto]

I think we'll touch on it even here, actually. I think. I mean we really kind of want to talk about. About their nature and how they were made. But I think you're right. Next week we're going to go much.

[Sara Brown]

Really get into it. Yes, but the fact that they don't. The Ring does not have an effect on Durin's folk in the same way as like the Rings of Men had an effect on them at all. They don't go invisible or get pulled into the Shadow Realm or anything like that. And it doesn't pull them under Sauron's. Sauron's influence in the same way at all. Because Dwarves are not made in the same way.

[Alan Sisto]

No.

[Sara Brown]

They would avenge themselves against anyone who they thought took their wealth.

[Alan Sisto]

Right.

[Sara Brown]

Because that's what's important to them. But we need to be reminded of their creation again, how they were made specifically to resist domination. Right. So let's check the tape on that from of Auli and Yavanna in the Silmarillion. Aule made them, quote, as they still are, because the power of Melkor was yet over the Earth. And he wished therefore that they should be strong and unyielding.

[Alan Sisto]

Exactly. He knew the children of Iluvatar were coming.

[Sara Brown]

Right?

[Alan Sisto]

Didn't know what they were going to look like. Which is why the dwarves are a little funky looking compared to men and elves. But he wanted to make them specifically to be able to exist under an Arda that was influenced by the power of Melkor. And we see something similar in of the Rings of Power in the Third Age about them, the dwarves. In fact, this line actually connects very, very closely to the passage in the text we read today in the appendix. The Dwarves indeed prove tough and hard to tame. I mean, he actually uses the same word about tame. They ill endure the domination of others and the thoughts of their hearts are hard to fathom. Nor can they be turned. And that's reaffirmed here. Yes, they can be killed. They can even be broken. But they cannot be enslaved to another will. Like you said, totally unlike the men who get their rings who get to the point that they have no will other than Sauron's own will is gone.

[Sara Brown]

Right. And also the Dwarves lifespans are not impacted by the rings in the way that the men's were. Or Hobbits.

[Alan Sisto]

Right.

[Sara Brown]

I mean think about Gollum. Think about Bilbo for that matter. But not the Dwarves. Because of how they were originally made by Auli, they will resist, naturally resist any attempt to have that kind of.

[Alan Sisto]

It's not even a willpower resistance. Right. It's not like they're like I'm going to fight this. No, it's just. It's in their DNA. Literally.

[Sara Brown]

Exactly. They wouldn't even notice that they're fighting it because it just is.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah, that's a very good point. And that's what we'll cover even more in depth next week. But. But as usual, if Sauron can't control it, he hates it. I mean that's, that's Morgoth and Sauron to a T. But especially Sauron. Yeah. So he hates the Holders, the Dwarven rings and then works to take them back. I've got a question to throw out there and kind of chat about here. Would he have given those seven if he'd. Because you know, the text says. Oh, and he was working to dispossess them. He wants the rings back. Would he have taken those seven or the ones that remained after some had been destroyed by dragonfire? Would he turn around and given them to more men? Because why give them to Dwarves if they're not gonna. If you're not gonna be able to dominate them, what advantage does he have in holding onto them? As it appears that he actually did with the rings that he was able to recover.

[Sara Brown]

Right. It's very strange, isn't it? Because one of the things I've. I've wondered is when Sauron gave rings to the dwarves, did he know that they would not have the same effect as they would on men? Did he understand dwarves enough? And I'm not sure that he did.

[Alan Sisto]

I'm not sure that he did. I also wonder how much did he know any. I mean like, did he know when he handed nine to men, that they would become Ringwraiths? Did he know that they would lose their, their, their visibility? That they would lose essentially their corporeality? Did he know that they would lose their wills? And did he. Did he know that the dwarves would not. What did he know about the rings when he distributed them? Because if he knew what we know now, he would have given all 16 to men. What's the point of giving them to the dwarves when instead you could have nearly twice the number of Ringwraiths?

[Sara Brown]

I mean, headcanon here, I believe that was in the design. This is what he desired with these rings. That they would do something along the lines of what happened to.

[Alan Sisto]

That makes sense.

[Sara Brown]

The Kings of Men.

[Alan Sisto]

Men, yeah.

[Sara Brown]

That they would be pulled utterly into his domination.

[Alan Sisto]

Right.

[Sara Brown]

Now, whether the plan was they would be pulled into his domination and therefore would be decorporealized, pulled into the Shadow Realm, however we want it.

[Alan Sisto]

Right?

[Sara Brown]

I mean, I don't. I don't know. We don't know.

[Alan Sisto]

We don't know.

[Sara Brown]

But I do think that he purposed.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah.

[Sara Brown]

To do something similar.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah.

[Sara Brown]

But that's what makes me wonder. Did he really know that this would not happen to dwarves?

[Alan Sisto]

And maybe that's why he hedged his bets with nine to men and seven to dwarves instead of eight and eight. I mean, I mean, it's sort of like, like, you know, betting slightly differently. You're like, I'm pretty sure this team's going to win, but I'm not 100% certain. So I'm going to put some over on this other team. Like, well, that way even if I lose, I only lose a tiny bit.

[Sara Brown]

Well, the seven, of course, are for the seven different clans of dwarves.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah, yeah.

[Sara Brown]

But yes. It's just the fact that he didn't then go, oh, I now have some rings left over. I'll go and enslave another load of men with.

[Alan Sisto]

That's the thing. I mean, he doesn't get all seven back, he ends up getting. I, I can't remember. It's three or four. The others have been destroyed by Dragonfire. But go get a second generation of ring wraiths, you know, go find some hobbits, maybe tiny ring wraiths you could. You could get. I'm sure Ted Sandyman would sign up.

[Sara Brown]

Probably.

[Alan Sisto]

Anyway, it's just an interesting question. Like, did he just put them on his shelf? Did he put them in little trophy.

[Sara Brown]

Cases with a little light underneath it?

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Sara Brown]

And like you can get from Weta these days.

[Alan Sisto]

Exactly.

[Sara Brown]

Yeah. Because the thing is I think we have to understand that Sauron is not all powerful and all knowing in the way that perhaps he believes himself to be. He didn't really know about the Hobbits.

[Alan Sisto]

No, no, he didn't.

[Sara Brown]

And he certainly, once he knew that Hobbits were a thing, did not understand how they were. And that's why I think that he didn't understand the nature of Dwarves.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah, that makes the most sense. And possibly he wouldn't have been able to, given his originally Maiar nature, because he would have known about the coming of the children. He would have known a little bit. Just like all the other Valar and Maiar would have known the Men and Elves were coming and what they would be like a little bit. But because the Dwarves were an independent creation, as we'll get into more next week, he might not have known. That makes sense. Like that didn't tell him, you know, why would he?

[Sara Brown]

Why would he? Yes. Yeah. I mean, apart from the fact that Auli's been shut down by eru, so he's not going to go chatting about. The last person he's going to go tell is Morgoth or Sauron.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah. Mother's Day is almost here and. Well, can I be honest? I'm terrible at gift giving. I'm just really too predictable. But I'm getting better. Because Aura Frames are amazing gifts and far from predictable or boring. Super easy to set up. Free unlimited storage with no subscriptions, no hidden fees. With images that look like real prints, you can share photos or videos from any device. And they show up on the frame no matter where in the world that frame is. No emails, no memory cards, no walking your family through how to upload the photos. It's just done. They're as easy to use as they are to set up. They're really a perfect gift. Aura Frames was named the number one digital picture frame by Wirecutter, the Strategist and Wired. They're recommended by Fast Company, Forbes, the Wall Street Journal and more. For good reason, frankly. Now Aura has a great deal for Mother's Day. For a limited time, listeners can save on the perfect gift by visiting auraframes.com to get $35 off plus free shipping on their best selling Carver Mat frame. That's a U promo code. Pony. Support the show by mentioning us at checkout. Terms and conditions apply. Now, recently I've been telling you all about Mando the Whole Body deodorant. And now that I've had more time to use their products, I just wanted to come back and let you all know, hey, I still really like it and as much as I like their stuff, I'm a lot more happy that my 13 year old son likes it. Know what I mean? One of the things that's great about Mando is that it's a whole body deodorant. You don't just just slap a bit of it on your armpits. Use it any place on your body that could use a bit of odor control, like your feet and well, yeah, there too, wherever really. It's clinically proven to block odors all day and control them for up to 72 hours. All their products are baking soda free and paraben free and they come in solids, creams and sprays. Now Mando's starter pack is perfect for new customers. It comes with a solid stick Deodorant Cream Tube Deodorant two free products of your choice like their mini body wash or their deodorant wipes, which I love for travel and free shipping and as a special offer for our listeners, new customers get $5 off a starter pack with our exclusive code that equates to over 40% off your starter pack when you use code [e-mail] s h o p M A N D O and please support our show. Tell them we sent you Smell fresher, stay drier and boost your confidence from head to toe with Mando. Now. Soon we'll get back to the Winter of Thrain's discontent. But before we do, we want to remind you there's a lot more talk going on a the Prancing Pony podcast than just us.

[Sara Brown]

Just as well the PPP has an amazing listener community. They're always coming up with great questions and discussions across all our social media spaces. Check out our Common Room on Facebook, our dedicated subreddit, Twitter and more.

[Alan Sisto]

Now on Facebook, just look for the Prancing Pony podcast. Follow the page to get the news and episodes, but you're going to want to join the group for some great.

[Sara Brown]

Discussions now on Twitter, Instagram, Blue Sky, Twitch, TikTok and YouTube. We're at prancing Ponypod or if you prefer Reddit, find us there at R prancingponypod.

[Alan Sisto]

And if you want daily Tolkien content, check out today's Tolkien Times on the PPP YouTube channel and on all your favorite podcast apps. That's my short format Daily Show. It's got everything from Tolkien Tuesdays to First Stage Fridays. And there's my new twice weekly streaming of all fun things Middle Earth on the PPP plays Be sure to check both of them out on the YouTube channel for all the PPP productions at YouTube.com Prancing Pony pod Sara would you pick up where we left off?

[Sara Brown]

I would love to. It was therefore, perhaps partly by the malice of the Ring that Thrain, after some years, became restless and discontented. The lust for gold was ever in his mind. At last, when he could endure it no longer, he turned his thoughts to Erebor and resolved to go back There. He said nothing to Thorin of what was in his heart, but with Balin and Dwalin and a few others, he arose and said farewell and departed. Little is known of what happened to him afterwards. It would now seem that as soon as he was abroad with few companions, he was hunted by the emissaries of Sauron. Wolves pursued him, orcs waylaid him, evil birds shadowed his path, and the more he strove to go north, the more misfortunes opposed him. There came a dark night when he and his companions were wandering in the land beyond Anduin, and they were driven by a black rain to take shelter under the eaves of Mirkwood. In the morning he was gone from the camp, and his companions called him in vain. They searched for him many days until at last, giving up hope, they departed and came at length back to Thorin. Only long after was it learned that Thryn had been taken alive and brought to the pits of Dol Guldur. There he was tormented, and the Ring taken from him. And there, at last, he died. So Thorin Oakenshield became the heir of Durin, but an heir without hope. When Thrain was last, he was 95, a great dwarf of proud bearing. But he seemed content to remain in Eriador. There he laboured long, and trafficked, and gained such wealth as he could, and his people were increased by many of the wandering folk of Durin, who heard of his dwelling in the west and came to him. Now they had fair halls in the mountains and store of goods, and their days did not seem so hard, though in their songs they spoke ever of the Lonely Mountain far away. The years lengthened. The embers in the heart of Thorin grew hot again as he brooded on the wrongs of his house and the vengeance upon the dragon that he had inherited. He thought of weapons and armies and alliances as his great hammer rang in his forge. But the armies were dispersed and the alliances broken, and the axes of his people were few, and a great anger without hope burned him as he smote the red iron on the anvil.

[Alan Sisto]

I love the way that last line gives us such a vivid image of. Of Thorin just chewing on his anger and banging the hammer on the. Oh. So going back. Now that we know a bit more about the ring that has been with Durin's folk for thousands of years, we move to it. In the present day, Thrain has become discontented and specifically it's a desire for gold. And it goes back to what we just talked about, that if the wielder of the ring lacks gold, everything else, all the good things in life seem to profitless.

[Sara Brown]

Right. His mind goes back to the incredible wealth of Erebor and he's obsessed with it. He leaves with a couple more of the dwarves we'll see later in the Hobbit, Balin and Dwalin.

[Alan Sisto]

That's right. Now the text here doesn't tell us, but this is third age 2841. So it's 42 years after the battle of Nandohirion, 71 years after the sack of Erebor.

[Sara Brown]

And while we'll find out later from Gandalf what happened to Thrain, the text here says that little is known, Sauron's minions are hunting them again. Going back to the idea that he'd figured out who had the last of the seven. And I think this goes back to our conversation just a couple of minutes ago, doesn't it? How could Sauron have had that kind of effect? Well, wolves, orcs, evil birds, etc.

[Alan Sisto]

Evil birds are. Actually, I'm thinking evil birds are the ones that wake me up at 5 in the morning. I don't know that most people would call mourning doves evil birds. Birds, but they're evil birds.

[Sara Brown]

In my world you wake up and go crabine from Dunland.

[Alan Sisto]

That's about right. Even though it's more like. Shut up, you. They'd. They'd made it over the Misty Mountains from Edward Lewin. Remember they were all the way over now, you know, west of the Shire. So they made it over the Misty Mountains and they're working their way north along the veil of the Anduin on the east side of the river. They had to take shelter in the eaves of the forest. Now I think when I first read this I was thinking they were somewhere further south. But remember, because they came from the Ered Luin, they're presumably at this point already north of Keroch. They're not down by Dol Guldur because they would have come over the mountains via the east road.

[Sara Brown]

Yeah, that makes sense. Geographically. Yeah. But the next morning Thrion is gone. They search for him for days before returning to Thorin in the Blue Mountains. Now, only much later, via Gandalf, did they find out what had happened. He'd been captured and taken to Dol Guldur where he was tortured and killed and the Ring taken from him.

[Alan Sisto]

That's right. And that leaves Thorin as the Heir of Durin. But as the text says, sort of really in a despairing sort of tone, an heir without hope. Which, again, hope being such a crucial element in Tolkien. I do want to clarify something real quick. This next sentence confused me a little bit. It says, when Thrain was lost, he was 95. The he here is Thorin. Thorin was 95. Thrain was lost in 2850 and was 206. So they're referring to he here is. Is Thorin the rest of the way.

[Sara Brown]

Yeah, that was what was a little bit of a confusing sentence construction.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah. When you read the drafts and we're not going to go into it, but when you read the drafts, it's clear because it's longer and it makes it much more evident and sort of like he trans but, you know, moved it over into the appendix or cleaned it up a little bit and it forgot to sort of clarify the subject object pronoun thing.

[Sara Brown]

But it's Thorin who is described as content to remain in Eriador. So he certainly is at the start. Anyway, he's profiting from trade, is enjoying some growth in his kingdom as more of Durin's folk make their way there. It's good days in the blue Mountains Fair halls, stores of goods. But they constantly sing of Erebor.

[Alan Sisto]

That's right. And in one of the drafts that we see in the peoples of Middle Earth, we even get mentioned specifically, quickly, that their songs also included memories about the light of the Arkenstone. So they really are hearkening back to those days. And in some ways that's a problem because as those years go by, Thorin begins brooding on all of these things that have befallen them and he starts getting angry again. He's thinking about vengeance against Smaug right now.

[Sara Brown]

Remember last week when his grandfather Thror said to Thrain our vengeance on Smaug, I bequeath to you and your sons all shades of Feanor.

[Alan Sisto]

I know, Exactly.

[Sara Brown]

Don't do it.

[Alan Sisto]

Don't bequeath a vengeance quest on anybody.

[Sara Brown]

No, that never ends well.

[Alan Sisto]

Never. No. Oh, my goodness.

[Sara Brown]

We get this really vivid picture of his thoughts, weapons and armies and alliances.

[Alan Sisto]

But yeah. It's also followed by the Reality that it's not going to happen like that. The alliances are broken, the armies are dispersed. There's honestly not even a lot of folk to wield axes. There's some more in the draft that makes it really interesting. It's not a lot longer, it says. But Erebor was far away and his people only few. And he had little hope that Dian Ironfoot would help in any attempt upon the dragon. For Thorin thought ever after the manner of his kingly forefathers counting forces and weapons and the chances of war as his hammer fell on the red iron in his forge.

[Sara Brown]

And this leaves him just as he was an heir without hope, with a great anger, without hope as he continues his Smithcraft twice without hope, huh? Yeah. I mean, like you said, hope is such a central concept for Tolkien here. I think Tolkien is using this concept of hope in a very interesting way because here, what is Thorin's hope? His hope would be to restore the fortunes of his family, if you like, the people. Yeah. Of his folk and to have back their treasure from the dragon. But in having that hope, he's letting go of a real hope which is to make his people truly prosperous which is actually what he's been. Been doing. That's the irony here. Right?

[Alan Sisto]

It really is. His people are at a good place. They're safe. They're growing, they're growing. Economically, everything's going well. He's just longing for something that. It's almost like he's setting himself up here, really. He's without hope because he's dreaming over something that he can't possibly achieve which is the defeat of Smaug and the restoration of the kingdom of Erebor. Yes, he ends up doing it, but it's not because Thorin and his dwarves are enough. It's. We obviously will discover the story of the Hobbit but it's almost like you're an heir without hope because what you're hoping for is it's really unnecessary. You've got what you need and you're doing well. Be hoping for your people and their. Their future and. And seek after that. But, you know, he's been left a vengeance gift from his granddad, so.

[Sara Brown]

Nice.

[Alan Sisto]

Thanks a lot for that package.

[Sara Brown]

Yes. Yeah. And of course, another irony here is that he's actually turning into his father.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah.

[Sara Brown]

Thryne goes off because he wants more than he's got. And yes, he's got kind of excuse that the ring is what's kind of affecting him because we know that the ring gives the Dwarves, a sense of discontent.

[Alan Sisto]

Right. If they don't have gold, they can't be happy with anything else.

[Sara Brown]

Exactly. Right now Thorin doesn't have a ring. You don't have that excuse.

[Alan Sisto]

Nope. He's just has that behavior modeled for him for a couple generations.

[Sara Brown]

Yes, that's exactly it. So, you know, we. He's lost his father.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah.

[Sara Brown]

When he didn't have to. Ryan did not have to go wandering off to do this.

[Alan Sisto]

That Brian would likely have lived another, you know, close to 100 years. We know the dwarves live 250 and that. Yeah, 300. Sometimes a 300 year old dwarf is as rare as a 100-year-old man. I think we'll read later. But you know, another 50, 60, 70 years of leading his people and now Thorin has sort of like inherited that kingship a little early. Yeah.

[Sara Brown]

Yes. Certainly earlier than he needed to have done. All because of following this hope, which is more of an ambition, actually.

[Alan Sisto]

Ambition's a good word. I was almost thinking like the other version of hope. Right. You know, we talk about Estelle all the time. We talked about it a lot two weeks ago.

[Sara Brown]

Yes.

[Alan Sisto]

But I'm dear. Right. This is that other hope. The, this isn't the. Oh, I'm hoping in this thing that, that, you know, in this outside source that I believe has the ability and will in fact come through and save me. You know, instead it's. I hope the weather's nice tomorrow. I hope I win the lottery. You know, it's something that there's no, it's. That's just random chance as opposed to personalized force behind it. Because I mean, that's the thing about Estelle is it's, it's hope that Edu Iluvatar is going to basically come to your rescue.

[Sara Brown]

Right.

[Alan Sisto]

And, and fix things. You know, whether it's the finger of Iluvatar knocking Gollum off the shelf. Boink, you know, or, or somehow getting word to Aragorn that he needs to go through the, the passing of the great company, go through the doors of the dead and, and come out that way. Yeah, I mean, Estelle and Omdir and this, this looks more like an Omdur thing. He's without Omdir.

[Sara Brown]

Yes. Yeah. And because we know the story of the Hobbit, we know that this will actually lead Thor into his end as well.

[Alan Sisto]

Yes, it will. Yeah. He'll be king under the mountain, but he'll be the dead king out of the mountain. Yeah. Yes, exactly. Yep.

[Sara Brown]

Right. Well, would you like to carry on Our reading for us, I believe I would.

[Alan Sisto]

But at last there came about by chance a meeting between Gandalf and Thorin that changed all the fortunes of the House of Durin and led to other and greater ends beside On a time, Thorin, returning west from a journey stayed at Bree for the night. There Gandalf was also he was on his way to the Shire, which he had not visited for some 20 years. He was weary and thought to rest there for a while among many cares. He was troubled in mind by the perilous state of the north because he knew then already that Sauron was plotting war and intended as soon as he felt strong enough to attack Rivendell but to resist any attempt from the east to regain the lands of Angmar and the northern passes in the mountains. There were now only the Dwarves of the Iron Hills and beyond them lay the desolation of the dragon the dragon Sauron might use with terrible effect. How then could the end of Smaug be achieved? It was even as Gandalf sat and pondered this that Thorin stood before him and said, master Gandalf, I know you only by sight but now I should be glad to speak with you for you have often come into my thoughts of late as if I were bidden to seek you. Indeed, I should have done so if I had known where to find you. Gandalf looked at him with wonder. That is strange, Thorod Oakenshield, he said, for I have thought of you also and though I am on my way to the Shire, it was in my mind that is the way also to your halls. Call them so, if you will, said Thorin. They are only poor lodgings in exile but you would be welcome there if you would come. For they say that you are wise and know more than any other of what goes on in the world. And I have much on my mind and would be glad of your counsel. I will come, said Gandalf for I guess that we share one trouble at least. The dragon of Erebor is on my mind and I do not think that he will be forgotten by the grandson of Thror. Love that sequence.

[Sara Brown]

Yes, so do I. So do I. And this is the famous chance meeting of Gandalf and Thorin. If chance you call.

[Alan Sisto]

That's right. So much on chance. I feel like the Hobbit really touches on that even more than the Lord of the Rings. The whole idea of chance really being just another word for fate. So much there. And we'll talk more about that, I think, when we get into the quest of Erebor itself. Because as much as we love this passage, we actually get to cover it again when we get to the quest of Erebor.

[Sara Brown]

Yeah, well, you get a lot more detail when you get to the quest of Erebor. So it's good on a time. It says. And the footnote gives us a very specific date for this meeting. March 15, 2941. And that's 100 years since Thryne wandered away, and 99 years after his death. So, just to look at a few other rather important folks, Aragorn is currently 10 years old. Denethor is 11.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah.

[Sara Brown]

And Bilbo is 50.

[Alan Sisto]

That's right. Enjoying his little bachelor life in the Shire.

[Sara Brown]

He is indeed. Now, two years ago, Saruman discovered that Sauron was searching the Gladden Fields for evidence of the One Ring.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah. So that just kind of puts this into your timeline. So as you're imagining all these things together now, Thorin is coming back home to the Blue Mountains from somewhere. I don't know, maybe he was at a work conference. I have no idea. He stops in Bree, and it just so happens that Gandalf is there as well, on his way to the Shire. Now, in the draft, interestingly, it says that he might have been going to visit the Shire, but it was also said that he may have been journeying to see Cirdan. I like that.

[Sara Brown]

I wonder what Gandalf would have had to say to Kirdan at this point in everything. But we get a glimpse into what's on Gandalf's mind here. And these are important things that are on his mind. The danger that the north is in. Given Sauron's intent to wage war. Gandalf has a real feel for the potential of what might happen up north here.

[Alan Sisto]

That Sauron, if he has the strength, will even attack Rivendell. That's going to take something.

[Sara Brown]

Yeah. Yeah. And, of course, the only protection against attack from the east is the Dwarves of the Iron Hills. Doubty though they may be, that's quite a lot to ask of them.

[Alan Sisto]

It really is. And then, of course, there's the dragon.

[Sara Brown]

Right? I mean, just that small question of a dragon.

[Alan Sisto]

Exactly. If the Dwarves of the Iron Hills are having to defend against Sauron from one direction, but behind them lay the desolation of the dragon. And then, boom. You know, he's flanked. Gandalf, realizes Sauron could use smog, as we talked about earlier, with terrible effect. So how do we destroy Smaug? Right. I mean, we're not going to be able to interfere with communication. If Sauron is able to work with him, that's a problem. So as Gandalf is literally asking himself that exact question, how do we kill this dragon? Up comes Thorin Oakenshield. That must have felt like a really clear sign for Gandalf. He's like, well, this will work. This exactly. Yeah, yeah.

[Sara Brown]

But Thorin, who hasn't had such an obvious sign says that Gandalf has come to his mind often recently. As if I were bidden to seek you again.

[Alan Sisto]

Maybe you were chances if you call it yes.

[Sara Brown]

Yes, I think maybe so. Yeah.

[Alan Sisto]

I think he came to your mind because you were bidden to seek him, actually. Thorin.

[Sara Brown]

Yeah, little voice whispering in the back of your head, was there? Thor? Orin.

[Alan Sisto]

So who's pulling the strings here behind the scenes? Who's. Who's kind of dwarf whispering here and getting him like as if you were bidden to seek Gandalf. I've been bidding you for months now, Laurie.

[Sara Brown]

And her finally listening.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah, I mean, that's the only thing I can think of, right? The. The master of visions and dreams is Irmo. Or Lorien as he's named. Or you know, named after the place that his. His mansions are. I mean, I guess it could be one of the others. Could be Aule even, since he's so closely connected to the Dwarf Dwarves. But whatever the case may be, it's of some kind of like. Well, my valar. Friends, this is a little on the nose, but thank you very much for this immediately obvious solution. Thank you.

[Sara Brown]

This works.

[Alan Sisto]

I've been thinking about you too, Thorin. Specifically, how I can use you to accomplish my really big goals.

[Sara Brown]

I'm headed to the Shire. But the Blue Mountains are just down the road, aren't they?

[Alan Sisto]

Yes, they are.

[Sara Brown]

Thorin downplays his halls. That's interesting. Of course, you know, he actually is not in a terrible way. But he sees them as poor because he wants more.

[Alan Sisto]

Well, he's experienced Erebor as a younger Dwarf. Yeah, yeah.

[Sara Brown]

But he does welcome Gandalf. Going so far as to say he'd be glad of your counsel again.

[Alan Sisto]

Of course I'll be there. Right. And he points out the one thing they have in common. Smaug. And of course, Gandalf's no dummy. He uses the dwarven vengeance angle by mentioning Thorin not as son of Thrain, but as grandson of Thror. The one who bequeathed the vengeance quest upon you.

[Sara Brown]

Yes, Talk about knowing which buttons to press.

[Alan Sisto]

Seriously, Gandalf? Wow, man.

[Sara Brown]

Yeah, I mean, we were joking about not the feanor idea here, but this is a very real thing for dwarves as well. In peoples of Middle Earth we read for an injury to a father, a dwarf may spend a lifetime in achieving revenge.

[Alan Sisto]

Yes. Similarly, parents for children, the love that they have for their kids, who are very uncommon as we'll talk about later, is also similarly intense. Like they're super, super protective. And then obviously they return the favor the kids do to the parents in the sense that, you know they will seek that vengeance.

[Sara Brown]

Right? If only they would remember that vengeance rarely ends happily.

[Alan Sisto]

Good point. 24 chefs 24 culinary showdowns for 24 hours straight which chef will out cook outpace, outlast the competition? No chef escapes the clock. All new 24 and 24 last chef standing Sunday night at eight. See it first on Food Network Stream next day on Max that's your money. Sin is time for a McDonald's run cuz with new McValue at McDonald's you get more than you expect. Like buy a six piece McNuggets and add a McChicken for just a dollar. Your money says let's go get more than you expect with new MC Value prices and participation may vary. Valid for item of equal or lesser value. Folks, if you're enjoying the ppp, please consider supporting the show by joining the Fellowship of the Podcast. It's what gives me the time and resources to work on making this show the best that it can be. Every season, every episode. When you join, you become part of an amazing discord community that includes live episode recordings, hangouts. Every month you get episode postscripts, ad free episodes, free merch, and more.

[Sara Brown]

And you can also become part of our Questions After Nightfall episodes or even join us as a guest in the North Wing. So Please go to patreon.com prancingponypod to show your support and join the Fellowship of the Podcast.

[Alan Sisto]

And you can always help us out by giving us a rating and review on Apple Podcasts and a rating on Spotify. And please recommend us to your friends now. Sara, we were just talking about that chance meeting. What did that chance meeting lead to? Can you read on?

[Sara Brown]

I will read on and let you know. The dragon was slain by Bard of Esgaroth. But there was battle in Dale, for the Orcs came down upon Erebor as soon as they heard of the return of the Dwarves. And they were led by Bolg, son of that Azog, whom Dain slew in his youth. In that first Battle of Dale, Thorin Oakenshield was mortally wounded and he died, and was laid in a tomb under the mountain with the Arkenstone upon his breast. There fell also Fili and Kili, his sister sons. But Dain Ironfoot, his cousin who came from the Iron Hills to his aid and was also his rightful heir became then King Dain ii. And the kingdom under the mountain was restored even as Gandalf had desired. Dain proved a great and wise king and the Dwarves prospered and grew strong again in his day. In the late summer of that same year, 2941 Gandalf had at last prevailed upon Saruman and the White Council to attack Dol Guldur and Sauron retreated and went to Mordor, there to be secure, as he thought, from all his enemies. So it was that when the war came at last the main assault was turned southwards. Yet even so, with his far stretched right hand Sauron might have done great evil in the north if King Dain and King Brand had not stood in his path. Even as Gandalf said afterwards to Frodo and Gimli when they dwelt together for a time in Minas Tirith not long before news had come to Gondor of events far away. I grieved at the fall of Thorin, said Gandalf. And now we hear that Dain has fallen, fighting in Dale again, even while we fought here. I should call that a heavy loss, if it was not a wonder rather that in his great age he could still wield his axe as mightily as they say that he did, standing over the body of King Brand before the gate of Erebor until the darkness fell. He yet things might have gone far otherwise, and far worse. When you think of the great battle of the Pelennor do not forget the battles in Dale and the valour of Durin's Folk. Think of what might have been. Dragon fire and savage swords in Eriador Night in Rivendell there might be no queen in Gondor. We might now hope to return from the victory here only to ruin and ash. But that has been averted because I met Thorin Oakenshield one evening on the edge of spring in Debrie. A chance meeting, as we say in Middle Earth.

[Alan Sisto]

A chance meeting indeed. I really like that last paragraph. And we'll get there. The whole idea of what might have happened. Now I had you skip the first paragraph here and basically it's just telling us. The story of the result of this chance meeting is told elsewhere, of course. That's also known as the Hobbit and it's also got a reminder in there that the only parts that are on this story are the ones that are connected to Durin's Folk. Again, that's the appendix on Durin's Folk. So that makes sense. It's what? It does indeed.

[Sara Brown]

Yes. Where we did read though picked up the story of the Hobbit near the very end. The Killing of Smaug by Bard. The battle in Dale. The battle of the Five armies with the Orcs led by Bolg, the son of Azog. Because you know, we can't forget that. For Orcs it's the same thing. He needs to revenge his father.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah, this is the whole blood feud thing. Just pay some wereguild and be done with it.

[Sara Brown]

Funny, was that easy. I know, because we also get the death of Thorin, his burial with the Arkenstone and the deaths of his nephews Fili and Kili. That's really sad, actually.

[Alan Sisto]

It is sad. I mean. I mean, when the hot Dwarves die, that's really not good.

[Sara Brown]

Right? That's just wrong.

[Alan Sisto]

I know. Why couldn't it have been some of the the less hot Dwarves, right? Like any of the others.

[Sara Brown]

Where was Bomber in the middle of all this?

[Alan Sisto]

So with his death, that is to say with Thorin's death, Diana Ironfoot becomes king out of the mountain. Gandalf wanted the restoration of the kingdom of Erebor. I'm not saying that he wanted it specifically to be under Diana, not under Thorin. He just wanted the the Kingdom under the Mountain to be restored. Because again, this is going to provide a central point of defense in this region. Right. This is going to be a powerful place. As we'll see later. Now we move to the late summer of that same year which is of course actually going back in time for the Battle of the Five Armies. That necessarily took place in late October or maybe even November. Remember that Bilbo and the Dwarves arrived at Long Lake on Bilbo's birthday. Remember? Thank you very much. That battle took place three to four weeks after the visit to Long Lake in the last week of autumn. And of course, the last week of autumn is one of those things that's not going to be able to be a date we pin down anyway. Right. Connected to Durin's Day and all of that. It's not connected to our meteorological calendar that says autumn goes until what, like the end of November? Which is insane. That's not happening that late.

[Sara Brown]

Nope, nope. And of course this was what Gandalf was up to when he left Thorin and Company he'd convinced the White Council, including Saruman, to attack Dol Guldor, driving Sauron out and back to Mordor.

[Alan Sisto]

That's right. Now we even get a glimpse. This is the part of this section that I really enjoyed you reading. How. How helpful this was. Later, by forcing Sauron's relocation, his main assault wasn't in the North. I'm sure Minas Tirith will send them a thank you note.

[Sara Brown]

Oh, sure, they're very happy.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah. I mean, even still, Sauron with his outstretched right hand like this, the text says, could have accomplished a lot had we not had a really strong point of defense in place here with the restoration of the kingdom of Erebor. So we have King Dian Ironfoot as well as King Brand of Dale, the son of Bard. That set of friendly forces helps prevent Sauron from being able to win in the North.

[Sara Brown]

Right. And that could have been utter disaster, even though there was defeat in the South. Yeah, yeah, yeah. We also see a bit of the frame narrative of this story come out and, and we'll talk more about that in the Quest for Erebor episodes. But even as Gandalf said afterwards, telling us that at one point Tolkien envisioned this story being told to Gimli and Frodo.

[Alan Sisto]

That's right. And it's in that section that we learn about the death of both King D and King Brand as well as Dyne's heroic stand at the Gate of Erebor. But as bad as things have gone with Sauron's attacks, I mean, certainly those two kings have died. It could have been a lot worse. Gandalf explains.

[Sara Brown]

Absolutely. When you think about the heroism on the Pelennor, Theoden, Eowyn, Merry, so many others, he says, think about the battles in the North.

[Alan Sisto]

Yes.

[Sara Brown]

Now Sauron's forces, possibly including dragons, could have swept through Eriador and even wiped out Rivendell.

[Alan Sisto]

That's what he means by we would have no queen in Gondor. Arwen could have been killed in an assault upon Rivendell. We would have no queen. It would have been possible for us to leave here from our victory and find that everything we know has been lost.

[Sara Brown]

Right.

[Alan Sisto]

That's an interesting thing because of course, the Hobbits get back and find the Shire. Almost is. Yes, yes, but that's nothing compared to what would have happened had Sauron.

[Sara Brown]

No, no. I think the scouring of the Shire is enough for the Hobbits to have to deal with compared to the idea of Rivendell being absolutely razed to the ground. Perhaps Even Lorien being burned, Mirkwood being burned, Eriador destroyed. It could have been absolute disaster. Because you could, you could have had dragons called by Smaug if you like and they'd be all over the place. What are you gonna do? It was hard enough to get rid of one, really.

[Alan Sisto]

I mean, the amount of almost luck you have to say for him to have had that specialized arrow and be able to get that one shot just right.

[Sara Brown]

Yeah.

[Alan Sisto]

Only because the thrush had told him, look for that spot. I mean, it would have been an insane amount of quote unquote luck or chance for them to be able to defeat, you know, a half a dozen dragons that would have been there to torch all of Rivendell flying through the valley.

[Sara Brown]

Exactly. So everything really has come together. Everything that Gandalf could have hoped for actually came together. And all of these bad things were avoided simply because of a so called chance meeting.

[Alan Sisto]

Yes. Yeah, and I love that because of course, you know, at the time he's thinking, okay, how do we, how do we get rid of Smaug so that Sauron doesn't have, you know, a northern branch? And then of course, let's attack Sauron so he goes back to Mordor and now we've protected a little bit of the North. Okay, what else happens on the quest of Erebor? Oh yeah, Bilbo finds a ring.

[Sara Brown]

Right?

[Alan Sisto]

I mean, it all ties together. Because without that, without Bilbo finding the ring, this is all in vain anyway. Sauron's victory is assured.

[Sara Brown]

Exactly. It all comes back to Spabi in many ways, doesn't it?

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah. And for those who are new listeners, that means she'll prove. But mine instrument it's an acronym we've long used on the show since season one. And it's a quote. It's a reference to the quote about ERU Iluvatar explaining to Melkor who was being rebellious at the time. You know, you do all this that you want, you're still going to prove but mind instrument in doing these incredible things. And that's really what happened here as well.

[Sara Brown]

Yes, because take it all the way back. If Gandalf hadn't met Thorin at that moment and thought, ooh, here's a potential answer to all of my problems. And it's like knocking down one domino.

[Alan Sisto]

Yes.

[Sara Brown]

All of the other ones follow. You just need that first one needs to be knocked down at the right time, the right place with the right people and everything then came from that. And that's where we get that whole discussion about what do we mean by chance, really? Yes, exactly. There's definitely a sense of not planning. It's not. It's not that so much, but it's definitely a sense of providence going on within the world. Yeah.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah. And I think we get a lot of that in the Hobbit. I remember thinking about that when we talked about the adaptation of the films. As much as we can kind of deride some of the silly choices of the films, I think the thing that really got to me was how they changed the role of luck and chance and really missed the whole point of that in Tolkien, which they didn't miss the themes in the Lord of the Rings films, but they utterly missed that. They Thorin saying we make our own luck like that is so contrary to everything that Tolkien said about chance and luck and fate. And even the whole ending scene of, you know, you're just a little fellow after all in the books. It really makes it clear you're being used, really. You know, you have a role to play that, you know, in this big, big picture and you are just this little fellow after all. And the movie sort of misses that point altogether. Really. Really. Sadly, in a way, because that is such a central part of Tolkien's story in the Hobbit.

[Sara Brown]

But it is. But you know what? I think we could sit here for an hour and talk about all the things that were not great about the Hobbit.

[Alan Sisto]

Well, that's fair.

[Sara Brown]

So instead, how about you read the last bit of Appendix A for us?

[Alan Sisto]

I will indeed. Dis was the daughter of Thrain ii. She is the only Dwarf woman named in these histories. It was said by Gimli that there are few Dwarf women probably no more than a third of the whole people. They seldom walk abroad except at great need. They are in voice and appearance and in garb, if they must go on a journey, so like to the Dwarf men that the eyes and ears of other peoples cannot tell them apart. This has given rise to the foolish opinion among men that there are no Dwarf women and that the Dwarves grow out of stone. It is because of the fewness of women among them that the kind of the Dwarves increases slowly and is in peril when they have no secure dwellings. For Dwarves take only one wife or husband each in their lives and are jealous. As in all matters of their rights, the number of Dwarf men that marry is actually less than one third. For not all the women take husbands. Some desire none. Some desire one that they cannot get and so will have no other. As for the men, very many Also do not desire marriage, being engrossed in their crafts. Gimli Gloin's son is renowned, for he was one of the nine Walkers that set out with the Ring. And he remained in the company of King Elessar throughout the war. He was named Elf Friend because of the great love that grew between him and Legolas, son of King Thranduil and because of his reverence for the Lady Galadriel. After the fall of Sauron, Gimli brought south a part of the Dwarf folk of Erebor and he became lord of the glittering caves. He and his people did great works in Gondor and Rohan. For Minas Tirith they forged gates of mithril and steel to replace those broken by the Witch King. Legolas, his friend also brought south elves out of Greenwood and they dwelt in Ithilien, and it became once again the fairest country in all the Westlands. But when King Elessar gave up his life, Legolas followed at last the desire of his heart and sailed over sea. Here follows one of the last notes in the red. We have heard tell that Legolas took Gimli Glowin's son with him because of their great friendship, greater than any that has been between Elf and Dwarf. If this is true, then it is strange indeed that a Dwarf should be willing to leave Middle Earth for any love, or that the Eldar should receive him, or that the Lords of the west should permit it. But it is said that Gimli went also out of desire to see again the beauty of Galadriel. And it may be that she, being mighty among the Eldar, obtained this grace for him. More cannot be said of this matter.

[Sara Brown]

Oh, my heart. Oh.

[Alan Sisto]

Oh, I can't wait to get there.

[Sara Brown]

Yeah. So, yeah. There's so much in this last passage.

[Alan Sisto]

I know. I almost broke it into two. But they would have been super short readings, right? One would have been just about like the population stuff, right? And then one would have been.

[Sara Brown]

Then the rest about Gimli. Yes, that's okay. We've got plenty to talk about here.

[Alan Sisto]

We do, we do, we do.

[Sara Brown]

And we do start the passage with the only named Dwarf woman in the whole of Tolkien's printed works.

[Alan Sisto]

That's mind boggling. I mean, really, isn't it? Even in the histories of Middle Earth, no names, just dece.

[Sara Brown]

I mean, I have in the past had things to say about this, as you can imagine.

[Alan Sisto]

You can imagine. And I imagine we'll talk more about that next week, too.

[Sara Brown]

Yes, yes, I can promise you that.

[Alan Sisto]

We will so in peoples of Middle Earth, we actually get a note sort of explaining their absence in the records. Tolkien writes, they are seldom named in genealogies. By seldom, I mean once ever. But, okay, we digress. Tolkien continues. They joined their husband's families.

[Sara Brown]

I'm winning.

[Alan Sisto]

If a son is seen to be 110 or so years younger than his father, this usually indicates an elder daughter. Thorin's sister Dis is named simply because of the gallant death of her sons Fili and Keely, in defense of Thorin ii, as opposed to speak on this. As opposed to any of her own accomplishments.

[Sara Brown]

Oh, fire away, John Ronald. Oh, my. I mean, okay, all right. Where do I begin with this nonsense? Right, Right. First of all, they join their husband's families.

[Alan Sisto]

I thought that might get you. Yeah.

[Sara Brown]

Really? Okay. It's no wonder to me that a whole lot of them decide they're not going to get married at all.

[Alan Sisto]

That's a good point. That's a very good point.

[Sara Brown]

Because you just get off.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah.

[Sara Brown]

Into your husband's. What become some kind of pretty possession for them. Oh, look, we got a woman. The next bit grates my last lump of cheese.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah.

[Sara Brown]

If a son is seen to be 110 or so years younger than his father, this usually indicates an elder daughter. Why would we bother even putting down that there was one?

[Alan Sisto]

Presumably because if she gets married, she then joins that husband's family and is therefore not even in the family.

[Sara Brown]

And they don't even put her down in the husband's family's genealogy. No. So they don't even record the existence of the female Dwarves.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah. That's shocking.

[Sara Brown]

I mean. Yeah. This is absolutely unbelievable.

[Alan Sisto]

How much of this is Tolkien and how much of this is him creating an interesting thing that the Dwarves do? Because, you know, we do see a lot of women in the genealogies of the Hobbits, for instance.

[Sara Brown]

We do.

[Alan Sisto]

So, I mean, is this something that's a holdover from some of Tolkien's own sort of background and time of, you know, when he was and the importance of women? Or is this just a fiction part?

[Sara Brown]

I think this. I think this is genuinely a dwarf thing because he doesn't do this for Elves. He doesn't do this for the race of men much. And he doesn't do that for Hobbits at all.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah, he does it a little bit for men. I'm thinking of the Kings of Gondor. How we don't know about the Elder Ones. We talked about that.

[Sara Brown]

That's why I said that much.

[Alan Sisto]

That much.

[Sara Brown]

Yeah, but. But with the Dwarves, it's not just, oh, yeah, this is how we do. This is egregious.

[Alan Sisto]

It is. It's absolutely egregious.

[Sara Brown]

Yeah, it really is. I mean, there's a lot to be said about the missing women in Tolkien, and many of them are human women.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah, yeah.

[Sara Brown]

But all of them are Dwarves as well, because they're just. They're not there. We don't know anything about Thorin'sistides except that her sons died in defense of Thorin ii. And that's the only reason why she is named at all.

[Alan Sisto]

Not because of anything she did, but because of what her sons did. Yeah.

[Sara Brown]

Right. So ask me again why it is that so many Dwarf women decide they're not going to bother getting married. Thank you very much.

[Alan Sisto]

That's fair. That's fair.

[Sara Brown]

Because, I mean, they're not going to get named in the genealogies.

[Alan Sisto]

No.

[Sara Brown]

They're barely going to leave their bowers because if they go abroad, they look like men. So they don't even get to look like women or be female. Yeah, they have. They are so much like Dwarf men that that's where the joke comes from that there aren't any.

[Alan Sisto]

I did note, though, in a reading that it's that the people of other races can't tell them apart. Clearly the Dwarves can.

[Sara Brown]

Well, that's an appalling little racist thing, isn't it?

[Alan Sisto]

I know, isn't it? I know.

[Sara Brown]

All people who come from X country look the same to me.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah. There is something a little cringy about that, isn't there?

[Sara Brown]

Yeah.

[Alan Sisto]

I mean, I think it also speaks to the secrecy of Dwarves. Right. That. That men.

[Sara Brown]

We'll just keep the women secret.

[Alan Sisto]

There is that.

[Sara Brown]

What are they in Purda? It's. It's. Yeah. Yeah. But you know what, it does actually speak back to the bit in the peoples of Middle Earth that I'm going to talk about in the next episode about how Tolkien went about working out how the Dwarves were actually created. Yeah. It's a problem from the very beginning.

[Alan Sisto]

It is.

[Sara Brown]

It is true.

[Alan Sisto]

And I'm looking forward to getting into that. Yeah.

[Sara Brown]

Yep. We'll dig into that next week. But in the meantime, the appendix records Gimli's explanation of Dwarf women. Always nice to have the man.

[Alan Sisto]

I was about to say it would be nicer to have a Dwarf woman explaining the Dwarf women, but they number.

[Sara Brown]

Only about one third of all Dwarves. Maybe they do some selective gene screening. I don't know. They're therefore outnumbered two to one. They don't travel often because they look and sound just like the male Dwarves. Elves and men can't tell them apart. Which leads to the nonsensical idea that all dwarves are male and that since they aren't born, they must grow out of stone.

[Alan Sisto]

Wonderful.

[Sara Brown]

Yes. I mean, that's kind of fun, that last bit, in the sense that, you know, when you go back to their creation by Aule, they're made from the bones of the earth, if you like.

[Alan Sisto]

I mean, in a way that's. And it's also one of the things that the elves believe that when they died, they returned the stone from which they're made.

[Sara Brown]

Right.

[Alan Sisto]

So, I mean, it sort of does give us that little explanation for why other races think things about the Dwarves.

[Sara Brown]

Right. It does tell us that the other races are very ignorant about the Dwarves.

[Alan Sisto]

How much of that is because of the Dwarves own incredible secrecy and how much of that is because of their own ignorance? I don't know. But yeah, certainly.

[Sara Brown]

Column a little from column B. Yeah.

[Alan Sisto]

They don't share their language. They don't share anything. I mean, we don't.

[Sara Brown]

They don't.

[Alan Sisto]

The first rule about being a dwarf is you don't talk about being a dwarf, apparently. So Gimli has told us about this two to one ratio. But the author of the appendix explains the consequences of that statistic. Right. The dwarves as a race do not grow quickly. And I'm going to have more on that in a pedantic sidebar short shortly. They only get married once. This is very. Tolkien. Right?

[Sara Brown]

Yes.

[Alan Sisto]

Elves do this as well. And I think famously of the one time when that didn't happen and it caused all sorts of problems. Right.

[Sara Brown]

Oh, boy.

[Alan Sisto]

Death of Miriel and all of that whole thing. And then in a letter explaining Hobbit birthdays, Tolkien writes that they do the same. He says Hobbits were universally monogamous. Indeed, they very seldom married a second time, even if wife or husband died very young.

[Sara Brown]

What's that about?

[Alan Sisto]

Can I say that this feels very personal to Tolkien?

[Sara Brown]

It does, doesn't it?

[Alan Sisto]

You know, I mean, knowing his own beliefs, knowing his own stance. I'm thinking famously of his letters to CS Lewis where he was like, I can't believe you would get married to this divorced woman. What is wrong with you? Yeah, it's just a really deeply held personal belief that I think he ends up sort of conveying onto his quote, unquote, good races.

[Sara Brown]

Yes. Yeah. Although, I mean, he doesn't talk about Elvish divorce or Hobbit divorce or Anything like that.

[Alan Sisto]

Because it doesn't exist.

[Sara Brown]

Because it doesn't exist in his world.

[Alan Sisto]

There would be none.

[Sara Brown]

Right, right. But also the idea that if you lose your wife or husband very young, that you.

[Alan Sisto]

That's the part I don't get. That's the part. Because that doesn't carry into his own personal beliefs. I mean, like, you know, the. The staunch Roman Catholicism that he would have held to would certainly allow for a remarriage if your spouse.

[Sara Brown]

Absolutely. I mean, I wonder if this is part of his almost deification of his mother. You know, she was relatively young when. When Tolkien's father died. When her husband died, she never remarried.

[Alan Sisto]

And her conversion to Catholicism was maybe a part of that too, because she was sort of ostracized by her family. And. And, you know, being a Catholic at that time in very Anglican England would have made it very difficult. Very interesting insight. I think you might have hit on something there because we can explain the elves and why they don't get remarried having to do with the eternality of their soul, the serial longevity of Elves and the returns and all that. And that's, of course why, you know, Miriel's husband Feanor's father, Finway was allowed to get remarried was only because she chose to not be re. Embodied. And then of course, later she did, and we have all sorts of other problems, but it was all fixed and it was all cool and we'll get into that at some point. But that aside, it doesn't make any sense for men and Hobbits, let alone Dwarves, to not be able to remarry if a spouse died. So, yeah, that's an interesting insight.

[Sara Brown]

It is, yeah. It is kind of interesting. Now, we hear that not all Dwarf.

[Alan Sisto]

Women get married, as you point out, for good reason.

[Sara Brown]

Yes, indeed. I'm totally on board with it. Some don't want to get married. Some want a husband they can't have. And on top of that, a lot of the men don't want to get married either. Which it's a good thing when you look at the numbers that we're about to do. And can I just say, I'm so glad you didn't ask me to do anything about numbers.

[Alan Sisto]

It's what I do. I mean, it's. I'm kind of. I've become a little famous for these silly little sidebars that get into, like, the nitty gritty. We said earlier that the dwarves grow very slowly as a race. Frankly, it's a surprise to grow at all if you have. Let's Say a thousand dwarves, you're going to have roughly 665 dwarf men, 335 dwarf women. We read that not all the women take husbands and that the number of dwarf men that marry is less than the one third. Because obviously if, if all the women got married, then one third of the dwarf men would get married. So if we assume a conservative 20%, no marriage rate for the dwarf women, let's see what happens. Okay, 20% of 335 is 67. So you take that away. So 268 marriages happen amongst that population of a thousand. That leaves nearly 400 unmarried dwarf men. So they better be engrossed in their crafts along with 67 unmarried Dwarf women.

[Sara Brown]

Who are having a fun time, thank you. Living with their cats.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah, apparently so each married couple then is going to have to have an average of 3.73 children. And that's assuming zero infant mortality just to replace the population each generation, no growth at all. And since you can't have 3.7 kids, let's go with four. Four kids times those 268 marriages is 1072. That's a growth rate of 7% per generation. It would take 10 generations with every marriage having four kids per marriage. And that 10 generations is 2500 years, because these are dwarves we're talking about. It would take those 10 generations for a population to just double. And that's assuming zero premature death zero. So, okay, that's already hard enough. But then we read in the Peoples of Middle Earth, it is then said that dwarves marry late, seldom before they are 90 or more, that they have few children. And then, I'm quoting here, and I'm emphasizing here, so many as for being rare.

[Sara Brown]

Yikes.

[Alan Sisto]

And then continues working. I know, sorry, the math isn't mathing. Continues to talk about the devotion they have to their kids. We talked about this earlier. That's the, that's actually the same place where we get that quote about, you know, to avenge a father, they would, you know, do basically anything. Having four can't be rare if they just want to replace their population, let alone grow.

[Sara Brown]

Well, my head's spinning from the numbers, but even I can tell that this isn't working.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah, the math's not mathing here. No, the dwarves are really in trouble if only a third of them are women and some of them don't get married. If even a handful of them don't get married, we have a problem.

[Sara Brown]

Especially, you know, what we're also assuming is a 100% fertility rate, right 100%.

[Alan Sisto]

Fertility, 0% infant mortality and zero premature deaths. So if we factor all those in, and I'm not a demographic expert, so I would have to figure out like, what, what percentages to add. But you'd have to have. You'd have to probably drop down to like a 10% unmarried women rate and still have something like 4.2 kids per marriage in order to really actually grow. Because you're going to have, you know, some who can't have kids. You're going to have infertility issues, you're going to have infant mortality issues. You're going to have kids that die young. You're going to have males that are of marriageable age who die in battle. You're going to have all these things that create more holes in the population that have to be filled. So to actually just generate the next generation at the same numbers and not decline to nothing, you got to have a lot more marriages and a lot more kids.

[Sara Brown]

I'm just amazed there's any Dwarves left by the Third Age.

[Alan Sisto]

Seriously, with those stats, that's really, really wild. If it's truly only a third are women, we've got population issues. I mean, it's hard enough for human populations as we know it is.

[Sara Brown]

But maybe they should have thought about being a little nicer to their women.

[Alan Sisto]

Maybe they should have. You're absolutely right. Well, anyway, pedantic sidebar over.

[Sara Brown]

It was a fun sidebar, though.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah, it's fun.

[Sara Brown]

So we move on to the end of the section with a bit on Gimli, our old friend Gimli. Yeah, a historically well known and important dwarf. One of the Nine Walkers and of course who remained with Aragorn all throughout the war.

[Alan Sisto]

That's right. And then. And I love this bit about him being named Elf Friend because he was literally friends with an elf and how unique that is. You know, I mean, it's not just Legolas, of course. I do love the addition that it's his reverence for the Lady Galadriel. But there's so much significance behind the title of Elf Friend, isn't there?

[Sara Brown]

Well, yes, we've seen this before. Yeah, but only with very special people.

[Alan Sisto]

Very. Bilbo was an elf friend. Right. But other than that, it's just like the heroes of the First Age, right?

[Sara Brown]

I mean, Gimli is a hero of the Third Age.

[Alan Sisto]

He is. He's absolutely a hero of the Third Age.

[Sara Brown]

But yeah, if you put him alongside Tuor, for example, I mean, apart from the fact that Tuor would tower over him. But Anyway, you know what I mean?

[Alan Sisto]

Three times as tall. Yeah.

[Sara Brown]

But yes, the, the fact that he's called Elf friend. I mean, it can't be just because he's buddies with Legolas. I think it probably speaks to the connection after the end of the War of the Ring because we do get a little bit more about that as well.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah, I mean, I think, you know, we've talked about this. The ongoing friendship with Legolas and Gimli would have set the tone for future Elfdwarf relations.

[Sara Brown]

Right.

[Alan Sisto]

And it really, I think would shift things dramatically and make the Dwarves much more amenable. And of course the Elves too. Let's face it. Legolas has to overcome his own prejudices as well.

[Sara Brown]

Famously stiff necked elves.

[Alan Sisto]

So I feel like just his diplomatic work, if you will, would be enough to name him Elfren. Let alone the heroism in the battlefield being absolutely just. I was gonna say enamored of Galadriel, but that's the wrong word. It's, it's this.

[Sara Brown]

Yeah. It's a very particular kind of love, isn't it?

[Alan Sisto]

Chivalric, sort of courtly, courtly, romantic love.

[Sara Brown]

Yes. Like the knights of Old kind of thing.

[Alan Sisto]

It's beautiful. It really is. Yes.

[Sara Brown]

I mean it's a pure love. An adoration if you like. Yes. But I think what we get from the text is a little bit more detail of what happens after the War of the Ring that helps us to understand how Gimli gets his title of Elfride. We get this update on what he's been doing since the war. I think you and Don talked a little bit about this all the way back at the beginning of the season. Yeah. When you talk through the unpublished epilogue. Because Sam provided updates on several characters.

[Alan Sisto]

I love that. It was a nice little, you know, like end credits sequence in the epilogue of, you know, here's what Legolas did, here's what Gimli did.

[Sara Brown]

Yeah, well, it's fun. It's, it's that little catch up at the end. Where are they now?

[Alan Sisto]

Exactly.

[Sara Brown]

Yeah, yeah. And of course he's been busy. This is Gimli bringing some of his people down from Erebor, setting up a new realm in the glittering caves of Aglaron, which was something that he desired to do from the moment he saw them.

[Alan Sisto]

Oh, such a beautiful, beautiful passage there with him describing to Legolas.

[Sara Brown]

Oh yes, yeah, It's a wonderful passage because you get a similar kind of reverence from Gimli for what the caves look like to how he feels towards Galadriel.

[Alan Sisto]

That's a good choice of words there. Reverence is indeed. I love the way he talks about we're not here to mine resources. A chisel. Just a tap here and a tap.

[Sara Brown]

There after a whole day's contemplation. Yes, because Gimli isn't a miner, he's a craftsman.

[Alan Sisto]

Yes, he is indeed.

[Sara Brown]

Big difference. Big difference. And then of course he's also doing a lot of work for both Gondor and Rohan which includes forging these new gates of Mithril and steel for the city of Minas Tirith. Posh gates.

[Alan Sisto]

Posh indeed. Definitely going to be able to handle Grond should such a thing return.

[Sara Brown]

Yes. We spit upon Grond if he comes back. We have Mithril gates.

[Alan Sisto]

We have Mithril gates. That's right. Then we get an update on Legolas. He brought Elves down as well. Just like Gimli brought down the dragon Dwarves. But he's. Instead of living over near Aglaron, he's living in Ithilian. And that changed the place dramatically. It's now described as the fairest country in the West. But he sails west shortly after Elessar died. So that's fourth. Age 120. Only a little over a century after the war.

[Sara Brown]

It is. Yes. And I do wonder what kind of work they had to do in Ithilien before they could make it into the beautiful fairest country in the West. Because there was still be some Orcs hanging around.

[Alan Sisto]

That's right. And we talked about that with. With Faramir and Eowyn. Because they would have headed out there. He as the prince of Athilan. And certainly Eowyn wouldn't have been sitting around in the castle waiting for him to come home.

[Sara Brown]

Nope. Handy to have some, some Elf friends.

[Alan Sisto]

Come down, no doubt about it, to help you out.

[Sara Brown]

Yeah. But then we get my favorite some say moment in the legendarium. And the phrasing is I think, I think, unique among all of these because Tolkien writes, we have heard tell.

[Alan Sisto]

I do love that. That's such a great way of putting it. We have heard tell.

[Sara Brown]

Yeah, we've heard tell that Legolas took Gimli with him when he sailed west.

[Alan Sisto]

And I love the question. Yeah. I just. But wait now, right? A Dwarf was willing to leave and the Eldar were okay with this and the Valar. This is wild.

[Sara Brown]

Did somebody okay it with upper management?

[Alan Sisto]

Right. Has this been approved?

[Sara Brown]

I didn't see that memo in my inbox.

[Alan Sisto]

Seriously. Customs and border patrol at Tolara Sea are like, do you have anything to declare Legolas? Well, yes, I'm here with my friend Gimli.

[Sara Brown]

You need to go through the Red route.

[Alan Sisto]

Yes, you are. Yeah. You're not coming in right away.

[Sara Brown]

Yeah, the two are bros. So, anyway, it is said that one of the reasons Gimli was willing to leave Middle Earth was to see Galadriel again. And that she was the one who pulled the strings to get him over there. I think Galadriel likes a bit of Reverence.

[Alan Sisto]

I think she does, yeah.

[Sara Brown]

Let's get Gimli over. He revered me.

[Alan Sisto]

Celeborn, thank you very much. But Gimli reveres me.

[Sara Brown]

Well, is Celeborn even there yet?

[Alan Sisto]

That's a good point. We don't know exactly when he leaves. We know that he does leave eventually. Oh, I'm trying to remember. We know that when. So this happens shortly after it happens in fourth age 120. So this is the same frame of time where Arwen is now going to be leaving Gondor, going to Cairn Amroth, which will be empty because Lothlorien is empty because Celeborn will have gone to Rivendell to spend time with his grandsons. But we don't know when they left. We're never told. We're only told that when he does leave, there go the last memories of the Elder Days.

[Sara Brown]

Yes. So maybe Legolas said, hey, Gimli, if we get on a ship now, yeah. We'll get there before Celeborborn is Celeborn.

[Alan Sisto]

And Galadriel will let you in. Yeah.

[Sara Brown]

Yes. You might have free Reverence moments with her without Celeborn glaring at you.

[Alan Sisto]

She can ask you what you did with those three hairs if you encased them in crystal as you talked about. Yeah, I do love that. And I actually, that's another. It is said that I Absolutely. Absolutely. By 100%. Galadriel was influential in getting this decision.

[Sara Brown]

Oh, absolutely. Because, I mean, Legolas, he was one of the Nine Walkers. But he wasn't important enough to get a Dwarf over those borders.

[Alan Sisto]

No, he wasn't. Not on his own. No chance.

[Sara Brown]

No.

[Alan Sisto]

One thing, folks. I hate to end. We're not ending. But I hate to end this segment on sort of a downer note. But do keep in mind that like Bilbo, Frodo and. And also it is said Sam. And of course he went. I mean, absolutely. It may be an. It is said he better. He better have gone. Yeah, like those guys. Gimli is going to die there, right? He's not suddenly made immortal, but he does get to experience the Undying Lands. He gets to see Galadriel again. And he gets to spend his last days with his dear friend Legolas.

[Sara Brown]

Right.

[Alan Sisto]

That's a lovely, lovely thought.

[Sara Brown]

It's a gorgeous thought, isn't it? This is a true reward for tasks well done, a life well lived, and all the sacrifices that are made. I mean, Frodo gets the dispensation, Sam gets the dispensation. Why not Gimli too? I think this is actually. It's a lovely idea.

[Alan Sisto]

It really is. And, you know, I just thought about this, because Sam has not yet left. Sam? No, no, wait, wait. Sam. Fourth age 120. Yeah. He will have. Sorry? Sam will have already gone.

[Sara Brown]

Oh, yes, of course he will.

[Alan Sisto]

Yes. He leaves when Eleanor. Or when. When Rose dies. He leaves shortly after Rose dies. Elanor, you know, writes that down in the Red Book of West March that he, you know, I can't remember the year. So he will have already gone over there.

[Sara Brown]

Yeah, well, he's got to get over there before Frodo dies because, you know, they have to be reunited and. Dying on that hill.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah, I. I'm dying on that hill now. I used to think, oh, no, by the time Sam gets there, Frodo's dead. But there was something that Tolkien wrote in his letters about why Frodo had to go with Bilbo. And it was because Bilbo was who Frodo loved the most, and he needed that. And so my thought is, there's no way that Frodo's dead when Sam gets there because Frodo is who Sam loves the most.

[Sara Brown]

Right?

[Alan Sisto]

And there's just no way he's going to get there and not have that consolation.

[Sara Brown]

No. I refuse to allow that to even be the bit of a thought in my head.

[Alan Sisto]

I used to absolutely think, sorry, Frodo's already dead. But no, I totally believe the other way around now. I know. I wonder. I don't think they would have lived much longer. But I have to look at the timeline. I wonder if Frodo and Sam are still alive when Gimlet gets there. And there's a brief moment.

[Sara Brown]

Oh, wouldn't that be lovely?

[Alan Sisto]

I want that so badly to be true. I can't buy it, because it's fourth, age 120. So we're talking about both Frodo and Sam having lived well beyond their years. And yet we know that from. I think it's Morgoth's Ring. It might be another one of the texts. I can't remember. Remember the idea that mortals in The Undying Lands, sort of like a, like a moth in a flame. Too bright. I mean, they, they actually would normally pass even sooner, so I don't think they are. But wouldn't that be nice?

[Sara Brown]

Oh, wouldn't that be nice? What a nice reunion.

[Alan Sisto]

That would be all too brief. Well, we do have one more thing to talk about real quick before we move into the end of the show. The line of Duran. There's no reading for this next section because there's really nothing to read. But we wanted to point out some things about the line of the Dwarves of Erebor. As the text says, Gimli laid out for Aragorn, it's that image of the family tree or the, the, the genealogy that's laid out there for you visually.

[Sara Brown]

Is that the genealogy that's missing the women?

[Alan Sisto]

Deese is there?

[Sara Brown]

No, no, no, no, no. Grumble, grumble, grumble, grumble. Yeah. So from Thryne the first to nine the second, the lifespan of the kings was in a very narrow range. 247 to 256 years of age at the time of their death.

[Alan Sisto]

Wow, that is a narrow range.

[Sara Brown]

It's very narrow. But that fits with something that we read in the Peoples of Middle Earth. And again, we're still in the part on the making of Appendix A, not of Dwarves and Men, which we're going to cover in greater depth next week.

[Alan Sisto]

I figured that. And that's where we learned that dwarves of different breeds vary in their longevity. Durin's race were originally long lived, especially those named Durin. But like most other peoples, they had become less so during the Third Age. Their average age, that text tells us, unless they met a violent death, was about 250 years, which they seldom fell far short of, but could occasionally far exceed up to 300. A dwarf of 300 was about as rare and aged as a man of 100. And that, that definitely fits with the 247 to 256 lifespan of the kings that didn't die the violent deaths. But more interestingly, in the footnote for this, Christopher explains that no dwarf in the table, the entire table. So not just the kings, but the ones that were related to them exceeded the 256 years, except for two that he points out. Boren, who lived at 261, which is not much beyond that, and Dwalin who lived to the vast age of 340.

[Sara Brown]

What? What was he drinking?

[Alan Sisto]

Seriously?

[Sara Brown]

340? I mean, given that a dwarf of 300 was as rare as a 100 year old man. How rare exactly would a 340 year old dwarf? I mean, I believe the maths is. It's a roughly 13 increase. So a 113 year old man, those are pretty rare. Unless you're Aragorn. It's pretty rare.

[Alan Sisto]

It's pretty rare. But hold off on the bingo nights at the old folks home, Christopher explains that the date of Dwalin's death appears in all the later texts at the table. Although the first to give dates seemed. And these are Christopher Tolkien's own words, it is hard to make out the figures to make him 251 years old at his death. So was it a typo? I mean, did Tolkien just make an error in the family trees later? I don't know. Well, I mean 251 fits better.

[Sara Brown]

It does fit better. And my good friend Christine Larson has pointed out that Tolkien was not a mathematician. No. And on more than one occasion he makes mathematical errors. And I mean that's, that's allowable. It happens. Right.

[Alan Sisto]

Well, we just talked about. He's certainly not a demographical statistician either.

[Sara Brown]

No, absolutely nothing. Yeah, but he does, he does make some mistakes with mathematics on occasions. And I think, true, it would make sense for this one to be one of those. Because when he talks about how there's this range for Dwarves and it's this to this and then suddenly. And they all fit in 100 years older than that.

[Alan Sisto]

Except. Yeah, except for this outlier who's like way Beyond. Who's like 40% greater than.

[Sara Brown]

Yeah, that does sound crazy. Whereas 251, that one definitely makes much more sense.

[Alan Sisto]

Slots right in.

[Sara Brown]

Now, one other interesting statistical tidbit about the family line from nine the first to Thorin, and that's nine generations or about 2, 300 years. All of the kings were born between 100 and 102 years after their fathers. Right. But you know, of course that could have missed out a few sisters, but we're going to pass over that. Now. Remember what we read about dwarves often not marrying until they were at least 90. So that fits.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah, exactly. But it also fits what you just mentioned. If a son is to be 110 years or so younger than his father, this usually indicates an elder daughter. So it really strongly suggests that all the dwarves in that line were their eldest child, not just eldest son. Yes, but again, it's not a 50% dice roll like it or coin flip like it is with, with humans. It's a two to one odds that your child is going to be a son, not a daughter.

[Sara Brown]

Daughter, Right. So actually, you'd be able to put money on it being a son rather than a daughter.

[Alan Sisto]

You would always bet. That way you've got, you know, you're twice as likely to win.

[Sara Brown]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Alan Sisto]

Indeed, it is said that Barlman went also out of desire to see again the beauty of the mailbag. Of course, more cannot be said of this matter.

[Sara Brown]

And neither should it.

[Alan Sisto]

Neither. Thank you. I didn't even put that down. And I'm like, I bet she's gonna say it. Neither should it. All right, Sarah, what does Bartleman have in the bag for us tonight?

[Sara Brown]

It's a shame I'm so predictable. Okay, so we have a question here from Christopher in Vermont. And he asks, can you explain what the problem is between the dwarves and the elves?

[Alan Sisto]

Why do I have six days?

[Sara Brown]

Why. Why do they hate each other, Alan?

[Alan Sisto]

Oh, there are so many reasons. Aren't there, though? I mean, how do we. How do we summarize this into five minutes? Or maybe. Maybe ten at the most? I mean, I think we go. Let's. I'll start back at the beginning of their creation. You know, we talked a little bit about that before, but what we didn't talk about was what happened after Iluvatar said, ale, what are you up to? You know, I mean, first Ally's like, oh, can you. How about blessing my work and fixing it? You know? Well, actually, first Ally was like, why don't I just kill them all? I'll just destroy him. My bad, my bad. Yeah, exactly. Sorry about that. I'll go ahead and wipe them out again. No, no, no, no, no. He gives them sentience. He gives them independent thoughts, so they shirk from the hammer. And that's how you know they're alive. They're not just automatons. But he made it very clear that, you know, I'm not going to suffer, that they come before the elves right before my firstborn. And then he says specifically that when the time comes, I will awaken them. They shall be to the as children. And often strife shall arise between thine and mine. The children of my adoption and the children of my choice. So it's from the very beginning there will be strife.

[Sara Brown]

Right. Which it's kind of all built into the music, isn't it?

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah.

[Sara Brown]

In some ways you've got to have the. The discord in with the not discord, said she as a non musical person. But you know what I mean? And that bears out, doesn't it? Because there's A number of different events that tells us that there's this tension that's putting it mildly between the elves and the dwarves. I mean, just to pick out one really important moment, let us zip along to Nargothrond.

[Alan Sisto]

Ah, yes.

[Sara Brown]

And watch as the dwarves stab Thingol in the knee and. And kill him because of the now Glamir.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah. Now we think about the Nauglamir and you think, oh, yeah, that's right. The dwarves made the now for Thingol. They actually originally made it for Finrod. So if we actually take a look at the chapter of the Return of the Noldor we read that in that time was made for Finrod the now Glamir the necklace of the dwarves, most renowned of their works. In the Elder days, it was a carcanet of gold and set therein were gems uncounted from Valinor. But it had a power within it so that it rested lightly on its wearer as a strand of flax. And whatsoever neck it clasped it sat always with grace and loveliness. As beautiful as that is, it's nothing compared to what it's going to be. Because after Beren and Luthien retrieve the Silmaril the now Glimir is remade and it is has the Silmaril set in it. We read that at that very time great craftsmen of no Grod were lately coming to Doriath. And the king, therefore summoning them that would be Fingal declared his desire that if their skill were great enough they should remake the now Glamir and in it set the Silmaril. Then the dwarves looked upon the work of their fathers and they beheld with wonder the shining jewel of Feanor. And they were filled with a great lust to possess them and carry them off to their far homes in the mountains. But they dissembled their mind and consented to the task. So you've already got these unhappy dwarves who are like, oh, I want this. Like I my father's made that Nauglimir for Finrod. And I knew Finrod. And you're no Finrod. And now it's got the Silmaril in it. And anybody who sees the Silmaril wants the Silmaril.

[Sara Brown]

That's it.

[Alan Sisto]

But that is not all that's going to happen, is it?

[Sara Brown]

No. Okay. So the text carries on, and it tells us long was their labor and Thingol went down alone to their deep smithies and sat ever among them as they worked, worked. In time his desire was achieved and the greatest of the works of elves and Dwarves Were brought together and made one. And its beauty was very great. For now the countless jewels of the Nauglamir did reflect and cast abroad in marvellous hues the light of the Silmaril amidmost. Then Thingol, being alone among them, made to take it up and clasp it about his neck. But the dwarves in that moment withheld it from him him and demanded that he yielded up to them, saying, by what right does the Elven King lay claim to the Nauglamir that was made by our fathers for Finrod Felagund, who is dead? It has come to him but by the hand of Hurin the man of Dor Lomin who took it as a thief out of the darkness of Nargothrond. But Thingol perceived their hearts and saw well that desiring the Silmaril they sought but a pretext and fair cloak for their true intent. And in his wrath and pride he gave no heed to his peril but spoke to them in scorn, saying, how do ye of uncouth race dare to demand aught of me? Elu Thingol, Lord of Beleriand whose life began by the waters of Koivienen years uncounted ere the fathers of the stunted people awoke and standing tall and proud among them, he bade them with shameful words begone, unrequited out of Doriath. Then the lust of the dwarves was kindled to rage by the words of the king. And they rose up about him and laid hands on him and slew him as he stood. So died in the deep places of Menegroth Elwe Singolo, King of Doriath who alone of all the children of Iluvatar was joined with one of the Ainur. And he who alone of the forsaken elves had seen the light of the trees of Valinor with his last sight gazed upon the Silmaril.

[Alan Sisto]

Oh, Thingol. Oh, my goodness. I mean, first of all, Micromanager sat ever among them as they worked. That's not going to score you points.

[Sara Brown]

No.

[Alan Sisto]

Then. Then when? When they throw out their little claim. Like, by what right do you lay claim to this? It was made our fathers. He could be like. You know what? You're right. Let me pay you 20% more than the agreed upon contract price. Right. These are Dwarves. Pay him enough and they're probably going to go away. But no.

[Sara Brown]

No.

[Alan Sisto]

In his wrath and pride he gave no heed to his peril. He should have been pushing the alarm button is what he should have done. Instead he's uncouth race dare to demand my life begin. Years before the fathers of the stunted people awoke.

[Sara Brown]

Oh boy.

[Alan Sisto]

And that's actually one of the things, you know, we talk about. Why do the elves and dwarves hate each other? Can we start with the name that the elves gave to the dwarves? The stunted people. I mean, the elves are.

[Sara Brown]

Yeah, that's not good.

[Alan Sisto]

They're not tactful. I mean, they called the men the Aftercomers, the Usurpers, the Visitors, the Sickly. I mean, they call us all sorts of nasty names. I don't know how much the these dwarves knew of the petty dwarves, but Mim and his people were hunted by the elves until they discovered that they were actually speaking creatures and not beasts. There's so many things that have happened historically and you know, sure. Here this is a reason for, you know, the pride of Thingol as a reason for the dwarves to hate the elves. But then slaying Thingol is a reason for the elves to hate the dwarves.

[Sara Brown]

Exactly.

[Alan Sisto]

And you know how it goes, it continues. These are blood feuds. So, you know, the dwarves take the Naglemir, they run out, but word gets out and then they're pursued to the death. The Nagalomir is retaken. Two of the ones that killed Thingol escaped. They get back to Nograd, they tell a lie. They say the dwarves were killed by Doriath, by, by Thingol's command, who was just trying to get out of paying them. So the dwarves then come over and, and they're going to attack. They ask for help from Bellagos Belgas, like, you shouldn't do this, man. And then they come out and there's another battle and there's battle in the caves of Metagross. And it's just a terrible, terrible thing. Many elves and dwarves were killed and that has not been forgotten. And that is another reason why the elves and dwarves hate each other.

[Sara Brown]

Yes. And who has a longer memory than the elves?

[Alan Sisto]

Seriously, when you're surdidly long evil, your memory is going to be pretty amazing.

[Sara Brown]

Yes. And we already know that slights of this kind are passed from father to son in the dwarf kingdom.

[Alan Sisto]

Oh yeah, absolutely. For vengeance a son, you know, vengeance for a father's death. A son will do virtually anything. And you know, this was significant. There were some really important things that happened in this after battle, right? I mean, after the dwarves killed Thingol and they take off, the Silmaril is still there in Menegroth, but not for long. You know, the dwarves come back, they win, they defeat the forces of Menegroth. They ransack and plunder the halls. Mablung dies before the doors of the Treasury. The Silmaril is taken. Beren and Luthien get involved. There's just so much.

[Sara Brown]

It's that blooming Silmaril, isn't it?

[Alan Sisto]

It is. It's the Silmaril and it's Elvish pride and it's Dwarven pride. Pride. So there's your answer. There's your five minute answer as to why the Elves and Dwarves hate each other. I mean, it took a long time for there to even be enough friendship in the second Age between, between Durin's Folk and the Noldor in Eregion. And I think you can look there to the fact that you have a branch of the Elves that are very much like the Dwarves in the sense that they are craftsmen. Craftsmen and you know, really seeking after those things that, that will help them be better at that skill. So who knows though? How rough was that? I'd love to see more of that. I know that's a thing we've been getting in Rings of Power, is that developing friendship? But they're using Elrond sort of as the stand in for friendship with the Dwarves. Yeah, as opposed to Caleb Brimbor, who became essentially best buddies, you know, with Narvi, instead of just telling racist jokes in one scene on a TV show.

[Sara Brown]

Sigh. Moving quickly on.

[Alan Sisto]

Moving quickly on. Folks, that does wrap it up for another episode of the Prancing Pony podcast. But please be sure to come back next week when Sara leads us into the depths of the history of Middle Earth to unlock more of the secrets of the Dwarves.

[Sara Brown]

So don't forget to bring your torches next week.

[Alan Sisto]

That's right.

[Sara Brown]

Now, Alan and I want to thank the members of Team PPP Editor Jordan Rannells Barleyman, Becca Davis, Social media manager Casey Hilsey, Event and Patreon community coordinator Katie McKenna, graphic artist Megan Collins, and website guru Phil Dean.

[Alan Sisto]

And please take a minute to check out the prancingponypodcast.com that's where you'll find show notes, outtakes, Prancing Pony ponderings, and our online storefront where you can get PPP merch featuring all the great episode artwork that Megan's been doing for the PPP since the start of season seven.

[Sara Brown]

And it is awesome, isn't it?

[Alan Sisto]

Some really great stuff.

[Sara Brown]

Really is. Now, you'll also want to visit our library page. The Prancing Pony Podcast is, after all, a podcast about the books. So if you're interested in the book we've mentioned on the show. You'll find a link for it in our library. And we do get a small amount of compensation when you make your purchase. We thank you for that.

[Alan Sisto]

Indeed we do. We also want to thank our patrons at the Kirdan's contribution tier. I'll start with Demay in Alaska, Chad in Texas, Lance in New Jersey, Joseph in Michigan, Kathy from North Carolina, Carlos in California, Brian in the uk, Jerry from Washington, Joe in Washington, Irwin from the Netherlands, Ben in Minnesota, Anthony in Texas, Zaksu in Illinois, Sarah in New Jersey, Joshua in Massachusetts, Lucy in Texas, Keith in Alabama, Erica in Texas and Vivian in California.

[Sara Brown]

There's also James in Massachusetts, Ann in Kentucky, Sean in New Jersey, Mason in California. More Maureen from Massachusetts, Olivia in London, Robert in Arizona, Nick in Wisconsin, Lewis in South Carolina, Thomas in Germany, Craig in California, Bailey in Texas, Kevin in Massachusetts, Julie in Washington, Bruce in California, Joe in Maryland, Nathan in Arizona, and Kevin in Pennsylvania. Thank you all so very much for your support.

[Alan Sisto]

Indeed. Thank you. I really could not be doing this full time time without all of you.

[Sara Brown]

So make sure you don't miss any episodes of the Prancing Pony Podcast. Subscribe now through Spotify, Apple Podcasts, Amazon Music, or your favorite podcast app.

[Alan Sisto]

One last thing. As always, don't forget to send your thoughts, comments, and most of all, each valar's reaction to a dwarf showing up in the untucking lands. I would love to see their individual. Wouldn't that be good to barliman@the prancingponypodcast.com.

[Sara Brown]

And if you want your voice literally heard, well, just send us an audio of your question. Visit podinbox.com prancingponypod and record your question for us now. Please be sure to still email the question to Barliman, though.

[Alan Sisto]

Yes, please. Now, even though Barliman's been a lot more reliable these last couple of years, there's still a lot of mail to sort through. We'll try to get to you just as soon as we're able. As always, this has been far too short a time to spend among such excellent and admirable listeners.

[Sara Brown]

But until next time, however, farewell folks.