372 – Little Red Dragon

Summary

The Prancing Pony Podcast
Episode: 372 – Little Red Dragon
Release Date: May 18, 2025
Hosts: Alan Sisto and Sara (Shieldmaiden of Rohan)

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Introduction

The Prancing Pony Podcast welcomes listeners to Episode 372, titled "Little Red Dragon." Hosted by Alan Sisto and Sara Marchese, the episode delves deep into J.R.R. Tolkien's Middle-earth legendarium, focusing on "Unfinished Tales" and the pivotal "Quest of Erebor."

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Guest Interview: Ben Hinckley ([02:06] - [10:59])

Alan Sisto introduces today's special guest, Ben Hinckley, an accountant from Minnesota and a dedicated Tolkien enthusiast. Ben shares his journey into Tolkien's works:

• First Encounter ([04:22] - [06:00]): Ben recalls attending a community theater production of The Hobbit at age five, particularly the scene featuring Smaug, which left a lasting impression despite his young age.

  Ben Hinckley ([05:12]): "I picked that up and I didn't put it down until about 4 in the morning on a day before school."

• Deep Dive into Tolkien ([07:30] - [09:00]): Moving to an old stone house in Vermont at age ten, Ben discovered a treasure trove of Tolkien books left by a previous family, reigniting his passion.

  Ben Hinckley ([08:45]): "There's just so much to be found there and so much that's applicable in everyday life."

• Favorites and Memories ([09:15] - [10:00]): Ben cites The Lord of the Rings, particularly Book Four, as his favorite within the legendarium, and Farmer Giles of Ham as his favorite non-Tolkien work. His cherished memory involves reading The Lord of the Rings aloud to his son over nine months.

Sara conducts a lightning round with Ben, touching on his favorite characters, places, and elves, highlighting his choice of Gandalf as his favorite character and Nenithoil in Environs as his preferred Middle-earth location.

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Main Discussion: The Quest of Erebor ([11:08] - [128:54])

Exploring "Unfinished Tales" ([11:08] - [32:00])

Alan and Sara embark on an in-depth exploration of "Unfinished Tales," specifically the "Quest of Erebor." They analyze Gandalf's perspective and strategic motivations behind involving Bilbo Baggins in the Dwarven quest to reclaim Erebor from Smaug.

• Gandalf's Strategic Mindset ([15:23] - [16:08]): The hosts discuss Christopher Tolkien’s Manuscript C, which presents a more concise version of Gandalf's plans, contrasting it with earlier versions in "Peoples of Middle-earth."

  Sara ([16:04]): "Economical and tightly constructed in form."

• Gandalf and Saruman's Conflict ([20:34] - [22:10]): They delve into Gandalf's frustration with Saruman, who hinders his plans against Sauron, emphasizing the strategic importance of removing Sauron from Dol Guldur before tackling Smaug.

  Alan Sisto ([21:00]): "He had not thought of them for years. It was not until I got to the Shire and had time to reflect on Thorin's tale that I suddenly remembered the strange chance that had put them in my hands."

Themes of Pride and Greed ([32:00] - [86:52])

The conversation shifts to the pervasive themes of pride and greed in Tolkien's works, using Thorin Oakenshield's character as a focal point.

• Absence of Traditional Families ([46:50] - [50:42]): The hosts reflect on the recurring motif of broken families in Middle-earth, drawing parallels to Tolkien's personal experiences with loss.

  Sara ([49:27]): "Tolkien has a problem with family. So many of the families throughout the legendarium are broken."

• Thorin's Downfall ([65:09] - [86:52]): Alan and Sara analyze Thorin's pride and greed, discussing how these traits lead to his eventual downfall despite Gandalf's warnings.

  Sara ([75:00]): "But that story is about Thorin and how pride and greed overcame him, leading to his death."

• Comparison with Boromir ([104:14] - [105:57]): The duo compares Thorin's tragic end with Boromir's redemption in The Lord of the Rings, highlighting the different ways pride affects these characters.

  Sara ([105:15]): "Pride and greed had overcome all of his better, stronger qualities leaving him a bit of a shell of himself."

Gandalf: Mentor or Strategist? ([121:27] - [126:20])

Addressing a listener's question, Alan and Sara debate Gandalf's role as either a wise mentor or a calculating strategist.

• Dual Nature of Gandalf ([123:36] - [125:00]): They conclude that Gandalf embodies both roles simultaneously—acting as a mentor who deeply cares for his companions while also maneuvering the grand strategy to ensure Middle-earth's safety.

  Sara ([124:28]): "He is perfectly capable of caring about the people with whom he's working and the people for whom he's working at the same time as doing what he must do."

Conclusion and Reflections ([126:20] - [128:54])

As the episode wraps up, Alan and Sara express their anticipation for the next episode, where they will further explore Gandalf's strategies and interactions with Thorin.

• Final Thoughts ([128:54]): The hosts encourage listeners to engage with their Patreon, support their endeavors, and participate in future discussions.

  Alan Sisto ([128:39]): "Tell your friends. Before we get back into the episode, I just want to take a really quick moment to tell you about a project that's got a deadline coming up."

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Notable Quotes

• Alan Sisto ([31:14]): "I always think this taking a break is going to help his mind find the answer. I've got a hard problem to face. Put it away, do something else and let the back of my brain sort of process that in the background."

• Sara ([164:20]): "He is the best of Boromir. I mean, sometimes it's somebody else like Gimli when they're going through the paths of the dead. But most of the time it's Sam."

• Alan Sisto ([87:04]): "Look after your darling. I know your fame, Thorin answered. I hope it has merited."

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Key Insights

1. Gandalf's Strategic Influence: Gandalf's involvement in the Quest of Erebor is not merely that of a mentor but also a calculated strategist aiming to influence the broader events shaping Middle-earth, such as combating Sauron.

2. Themes of Pride and Greed: The episode underscores how pride and greed are central to the downfall of characters like Thorin, echoing similar themes in Tolkien's work and reflecting deeper narrative patterns.

3. The Role of Chance vs. Providence: Alan and Sara explore the delicate balance between chance encounters and a sense of providence guiding events in Tolkien's mythology, questioning how much is deliberate strategy versus fate.

4. Broken Families as a Narrative Device: The recurring motif of broken families in Middle-earth serves to highlight themes of loss and continuity, possibly mirroring Tolkien's personal experiences with grief.

5. Duality of Gandalf's Character: Gandalf embodies both a caring mentor and a shrewd strategist, showcasing Tolkien's ability to create multifaceted characters who operate on both personal and grand scales.

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Conclusion

Episode 372 of The Prancing Pony Podcast offers a profound exploration of Gandalf's role in the Quest of Erebor, intertwining character analysis with thematic discussions on pride, greed, and fate. Through engaging dialogue and insightful commentary, Alan and Sara provide listeners with a deeper understanding of Tolkien's intricate world, setting the stage for future episodes that promise to unravel more of Middle-earth's enigmatic threads.

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Join the Conversation:
For more in-depth discussions and to engage with fellow Tolkien enthusiasts, visit patreon.com/prancingponypod and follow The Prancing Pony Podcast on social media.

Transcript

[Alan Sisto]

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[Sara]

Is that even possible?

[Alan Sisto]

He goes to Carvana.com. what is this, a movie trailer? He ignores the doubters, enters his license plate. Wow, that's a great offer. The car is sold, but will Carvana.

[Sara]

Pick it up in time?

[Alan Sisto]

They'll literally pick it up tomorrow morning. Done with the dramatics.

[Sara]

Car selling in record time.

[Alan Sisto]

Save your time. Go to Carvana.com and sell your car today.

[Sara]

Pickup fees may apply.

[Alan Sisto]

Good evening, little masters, and welcome to episode 372 of the Prancing Pony podcast, where I was very troubled at that time.

[Sara]

Well, who's hindering all your plans, folks? Pull up a bench in the common room and join us. I'm Sara, the shieldmaiden of Rohan, and I'm here with the man of the west who is not preparing for a great war, Alan Sisto.

[Alan Sisto]

I can barely prepare for a podcast. Sara. Folks, join us as we continue our sidebar from Appendix A3 on the dwarves by taking a fresh look at the events leading up to the story of the Hobbit. This time from Gandalf's perspective, as we turn to unfinished tales and the quest of Erebor.

[Sara]

Oh, good thing I just bumped into you in the pub so we could discuss this dangerous matter.

[Alan Sisto]

Chance meeting, right?

[Sara]

If chance you call it. Folks, no matter how you arrived, you are all welcome here in the common room at the Prancing Pony Podcast. We are reading and talking our way through Middle Earth with plenty of speculation and some seriously bad jokes along the way.

[Alan Sisto]

Says you. All right. We do love our deep dives into the lore, discussing our favorite themes and a whole lot more.

[Sara]

But we do try to keep it light and fun, like a couple of friends chatting at the bar, making plans to get rid of dragons. And we're glad you've joined us.

[Alan Sisto]

Indeed we are. I'm sure you'll be glad you joined as well. But before we get to tonight's chapter discussion, it's time to check in with one of our guests in the North Wing. Today we're bringing you another new installment of the North Wing. Barlum and Butterbur had a room or two in the North Wing at the Prancing Pony Inn, made special for hobbits. And this is our place, made special for some of our listeners to give us a chance to get to know them. Now, rooms at the North Wing are a little hard to come by, so only our patrons at the Elronds Honorarium and Kierdan's contribution tiers are eligible. So if you'd like to be one of the next patrons to join us, be sure to check out patreon.com prancingponypod.com Please do. We've got a waiting list for the North Wing right now, but we'll get to them all soon and we'll make room for more if necessary. Absolutely. Well, then, Matt, why don't we welcome today's guest to the North Wing, Ben Hinckley. Hi. Hi, Ben. Good to have you. Great to be here. Now, Ben, tell us a bit about yourself.

[Sara]

Where you're from, what do you do, and what do your loved ones think.

[Alan Sisto]

Of all this crazy Tolkien stuff? I grew up in New England. I came out to Minnesota, have lived here basically ever since. I am an accountant, so the less said about that, the better. My family is pretty supportive, particularly my son. My son loves Tolkien. It's something we've been sharing basically his whole life. My wife puts up with it and is generally supportive. Because of that bond. Exactly. Well, that's good, Ben. You've been around long enough to know that we're going to ask you the question that we ask everybody who ever comes on the Prancing Pony podcast. When and how did you first discover Tolkien's works? What was your experience like? And I love this question. Why do you keep coming back? Well, okay, so my very first exposure didn't really take. When I was about five, my father took me to a play that his community theater put on of the Hobbit. And about all I remember is the scene where Smaug first comes out. And it was, they had fancy lights and a smoke machine. So that that left an impression. But on a five year old it certainly would. Yeah, yeah. But what really got me into Tolkien was When I was 10, I moved to a old stone house in Vermont that we were renting from a family in Montreal. And they had left behind all of their books and that included a ton of Tolkien. Some I don't know if they're first editions, but really, really old beat up ones, including a version of the Hobbit with the Tolkien illustration of Smaug. And I just, I picked that up and I didn't put it down until about 4 in the morning on a day before school. Oh, that's great. On a reading the Hobbit in one sitting, that's fantastic. And as far as what keeps bringing me back, it's just so deep. I mean there's so many aspects. Like you've got the brave warrior story on the surface, but you start digging into the history and what the meaning of heroism and all of this. There's just so much to be found there and so much that's applicable in everyday life. Yeah, that makes sense. Depth and applicability for sure. Yeah. All right, now following up on that, what is your favorite book in the legendarium and do you have a favorite non legendarium? Okay, my favorite book in the legendarium is probably book four of Lord of the Rings. Oh, very specific. I like it just because of. Okay, you get Faramir, you get the humanization or hobbitization of Gollum, the choices of Samwise. There's just so much going on, so much that's at the heart of the, the thematic heart of the novel. And what about non Legendarium? Do you have any favorites there? Farmer Giles of Ham. Such a Funny Story. Yeah, it's fun to read out loud. Just the way he plays with language, especially the way the dragon speaks. Yes, he's a lot of fun. All right, well, favorite memory of a Tolkien related activity. It could still be the community theater production of the Hobbit when you were five, but maybe you have a different one. What's your favorite memory? Well, okay, that's probably the favorite specific memory but favorite overall memory is reading it out loud to my son at bedtime. Reading Lord of the Rings over the course of, I don't know, nine months or something. How old was he when you started? I want to say seven. Oh, that's great. Yeah. Yeah. And we read the whole thing including the prologues and did you right on. Concerning Hobbits. That's such a sort of a slow start notoriously for the Lord of the Rings that for a 7 year old. I'm really impressed that he was sticking through it. I know. I think My son was 6 and I started with the Hobbit and even that didn't move fast enough for him sometimes. Good stuff. He's a pretty patient kid. So sounds like a really good connection between the two of you over that. I love that. That's a neat thing to hear. And now we're going to move on to the lightning round of quick questions and answers. And I'm going to start off. Who's your favorite character in the Lord of the Rings? I guess I'd have to go with Sam. No. No. I'm lying. Gandalf. It's definitely Gandalf. It's always Gandalf. That's fair. Nice way though to get your second choice in there. Just in case. I like that. What's the one place, one place in Middle Earth you wish you could visit? Nenhithoil in environs. Ooh, fascinating choice. Nobody has named that one yet. That's a new one. I like that. You get the Argonath. You get Amon La Amon hen. Yeah. Parth Galen. Yeah. Just the North Stare. There's so much to see and do. There is. Who is your favorite elf from the first age? Okay, so I'm going to go about this from a storytelling standpoint and say Feanor. Not because I approve of his actions or anything. I don't. But he sets everything in motion. He's. He's where the entire story of the legendarium comes. Everything pivots from. From Feanor's actions. That's true. Yeah. It was really hard not to push the stop button and just say thank you everybody. We are done. We're done here. I half expected it. Do you consider yourself a Mary or a Pippin? Definitely a Mary. I. I would have spent my entire time in the map room. And we all know Pippin did not Mary spent his time much. You Know more wisely. That is correct, yes. Favorite author or book other than Tolkien these days it's Stephen King. Okay. Okay, not a bad call. All right, and one last one. Your favorite poem or song in the Legendarium, Thoreau goes Everond. Wow, that seems to be a popular one lately. That's two in a row that we've gotten that answer. And I think three out of five if I remember my North Wings correctly. But yeah, not a bad call. I mean, just because it's chosen, you know, frequently doesn't make it a bad call at all. It's quite a good one. I love the evolution of the rogue poems, but now I'm getting out of the Spirit of the Lightning Round. Those were some great answers. So thank you, Benjamin. We really enjoyed having you here in the North Wing. Thank you for having me. All right, folks, it's time for us all to head back over to the common room and join the rest of the listeners.

[Sara]

Thanks again and we'll see you back.

[Alan Sisto]

At our next questions after nightfall, if not sooner. And now we return you to the podcast in progress.

[Sara]

Right, Alan. Well, I can't wait to get into the quest of Erebor. So do you want to take it off for us and make a start on our readings?

[Alan Sisto]

I will going to go and skip the first paragraph and lead in with. With Christopher's final bit before we get into the text. I have not found any writing preceding the opening words of the present text. He would say no more that day. The he of the opening sentence is Gandalf. We are Frodo, Peregrine, Mariatic, and Gimli. And I is Frodo, the recorder of the conversation. The scene is a house in Minas Tirith after the coronation of King Elessar. And now I'm feeling like it's. Like it's the script of a play. You know, scene. Minas Tirith, you know. Gimli sitting, smoking a pipe, you know.

[Sara]

And eating meat off the bone or something.

[Alan Sisto]

Exactly. Back to the text. He would say no more that day. But later we brought the matter up again and he told us the whole strange story. How he came to arrange the journey to Erebor. Why he thought of Bilbo and how he persuaded the proud Thorin Oakenshield to take him into his company. I cannot remember all the tale now, but we gathered that to begin with, Gandalf was thinking only of the defense of the west against the Shadow. I was very troubled at that time. He said Solomon was hindering all my plans. I knew that Sauron had Arisen again and would soon declare himself. And I knew that he was preparing for a great war. How would he begin? Would he try first to reoccupy Mordor? Or would he first attack the chief strongholds of his enemies? I thought then, and I am sure now that to attack Lorien and Rivendell as soon as he was strong enough was his original plan. Would have been a much better plan for him and much worse for us. You may think that Rivendell was out of his reach but I did not think so. The state of things in the north was very bad. The Kingdom under the Mountain and the strong Men of Dale were no more to resist any force that Sauron might send to regain the northern passes and the mountains and the old lands of Angmar. There were only the Dwarves of the Iron Hills and behind them lay a desolation and a dragon. The dragon Sauron might use with terrible effect. Often I said to myself I must find some means of dealing with Smaug But a direct stroke against Dol Guldur is needed still more. We must disturb Sauron's plans. I must make the Council see that. Those were my dark thoughts as I jogged along the road. I was tired, and I was going to the Shire for a short rest after being away from it for more than 20 years. I thought that if I put them out of my mind for a while I might perhaps find some way of dealing with these troubles. And so I did indeed. Though I was not allowed to put them out of my mind. But just as I was nearing Bree I was overtaken by Thorin Oakenshield who lived then in exile beyond the northwestern borders of the Shire. To my surprise, he spoke to me. And it was at that moment the tide began to turn.

[Sara]

Marvellous. I did have this brief flashing visual of Gandalf in sports shorts and a tank top jogging along the road, though.

[Alan Sisto]

And Thorin jogging faster. Yes, on your left.

[Sara]

Oh, good reference. Anyway, we'll try and move past that visual.

[Alan Sisto]

That's a great visual. No, I love it.

[Sara]

It is a bit, isn't it?

[Alan Sisto]

We'll dwell there. Yeah.

[Sara]

Now, a couple of weeks back, when we were covering Durin's Folk, we. Across the line. The story is told elsewhere of what came of that meeting. The meeting of Gandalf and Thorin in Bree, that is. And I think we said that the elsewhere is the Hobbit but that elsewhere is also right here in Unfinished Tales. The Quest of Erebor.

[Alan Sisto]

That's right. But as today and next week will show there were Actually, several versions of this story and a lot of development along the way.

[Sara]

The version we're reading today, the first one presented in the Quest for Erebor chapter, is a version Christopher Tolkien calls Manuscript C. And he explains that it, quote, tells the story in a more economical and tightly constructed form, which, of.

[Alan Sisto]

Course, has nothing to do with the Prancing Pony podcast. We tell nothing in an economical or tightly constructed form.

[Sara]

Well, that just sounds miserably boring.

[Alan Sisto]

I know, doesn't it, Like. Thanks, Christopher. Today, though, we are going to focus on that main story as presented in Unfinished Tales. Next week, we'll look at the appendix in Unfinished Tales, where we will look at the differences in the earlier versions, which are A and B according to Christopher Tolkien. And then both weeks, we'll do what we can to pull in things from the peoples of Middle Earth, where Christopher Tolkien brings even more detail to the table.

[Sara]

But the first part of this story in Unfinished Tales, the part we skipped when reading, is essentially a synopsis of what we covered over the two weeks we talked about Durin's Folk, which is exactly why we skipped it, Right?

[Alan Sisto]

That is correct.

[Sara]

So economical and tightly constructed in form.

[Alan Sisto]

Oh, there you go. I mean, I do try to, you know, make it somewhat palatable. So we get Christopher acknowledging the more than one version of this story. This is funny because he says that here, but Unfinished Tales was published in 1980, and it was 16 years later when Peoples of Middle Earth was published. And that's where he finds even more texts. So here he's already saying there's more than one version. And he'll find later on that there's more than. More than one.

[Sara]

Yeah, indeed. And that's what we'll reference as we go through the versions in Unfinished Tales. But starting where I picked up, Christopher Tolkien here at least, says he hasn't found any of his father's writings that start earlier than the story as here presented.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah. And then, of course, he kindly helps us out by giving us the antecedents for the pronouns. Right. He is Gandalf, we are the Hobbits minus Sam, but also Gimli, and it's Frodo writing it down. So he's the eye here.

[Sara]

Yeah. And we're also given the location and the timing. They're in the house in Minas Tirith where they're all staying after Aragorn's coronation, you know, getting over their hang and.

[Alan Sisto]

All that kind of thing. Yeah, it was quite a party, I'm sure.

[Sara]

Yeah, I'm sure it was.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah. Now, in Peoples of Middle Earth. We get a tiny bit more the morning after their meeting. That is the meeting between Gandalf and Thorin. We're told that Gandalf tells Thorin he's thought about it and I'm going to go with you to your home to talk more.

[Sara]

And then we read from this meeting. There came many events of great moment in the matter of the War of the Ring. Indeed, it led to the finding of the Ring and to the involvement of the Shire folk and the means whereby the ring was at last destroyed. Destroyed. Wherefore many have supposed that all this Mithrandir purposed and foresaw. But we believe that is not so. For Frodo wrote this passage in the first copy of the Red Book which because of its length was not included in the Tale of the War. Those were glad days when after the crowning we dwelt in the fair house in Minas Tirith with Gandalf.

[Alan Sisto]

So that helps with the setting. But as. As you're reading that, I realize a little more is clicking with me once again. We get sort of this meta narrative or frame narrative, I should say. We wrote this, but it was too much to include in the book so we ended up including part of it in the appendix. But the rest got shuffled off and dropped altogether, as we'll learn next week. Tolkien actually intended this part of the story, the Quest of Erebor, to be part of appendix A3 with Durin's Folk.

[Sara]

Right. And this is yet another chunk of text that he's had to make a decision to excise from the main part of the story itself, like the Tale of Aragorn and. Yeah, but I love the fact that he wraps it in this meta narrative. It's the hobbits making the decision, when actually, of course, it's talking.

[Alan Sisto]

It wasn't included in the Tale of the War, not because of Frodo, not because of the, you know, anybody else but you, Professor. Anyway, so now to. Well, maybe, maybe to the publisher. Because the publisher's like, no, no, no, it's already long enough.

[Sara]

Too much paper already.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah, Very expensive book. So now to the story itself. Gandalf says he's not going to say any more that day what he actually did say, though. Like, oh, he wouldn't tell us anymore. Well, what did he tell you in the first place? I don't know. Neither do you. Neither do any of us. Because what he did say is actually a total mystery. It's not listed here or anywhere else. Fortunately, though, he's not quiet about it forever. Or we would be already heading into the mailbag. No, he eventually told them the whole strange story. Them being Frodo, Mary, Pippin and Gimli.

[Sara]

Yep. Now interestingly, Frodo is writing this down much later. Late enough that he cannot remember all the tale anymore and can only provide what we get here. Which is a fabulous get out of jail free clause, isn't it?

[Alan Sisto]

Exactly. Well, I forgot to include that because Frodo forgot. So. Talk about leaving the door. At the same time, Frodo really does remember a lot of detail if he's just writing this down like off the top of his head. He's got Gandalf quoting other people throughout this story.

[Sara]

Kudos to his memory.

[Alan Sisto]

It really is pretty impressive. But he does recall Frodo, that is thinking that Gandalf's motivation, at least his initial motivation all this was the big picture. Defending the west against Sauron. And we will be coming back to that big picture a lot.

[Sara]

Yep. Now we get a reporting of Gandalf's own words telling the story of how this all came to happen. And Gandalf admits that he's troubled because of Saruman blocking his plans.

[Alan Sisto]

That's right. Now remember, we still don't know that he's evil at this point. Or Gandalf doesn't know that he's evil. The quest for erebor began in third age 2941. With that in mind go back 90 years to 2851. That was when the White Council met. Gandalf was able to confirm that it was Sauron and Dol Guldur. Remember he had gone there and that's where he ended up getting the map and key from Thrain and he wanted to attack and that 90 years ago Saruman convinced the council not to.

[Sara]

Right. And you know you're just saying there that we don't know at this point. Or Gandalf does not know at this point that Saruman is evil. So you got to wonder how is he responding to Saruman? Is it a bit like you know when you've got this micromanager above you who just won't let you get on with what you need to get on with Gandalf.

[Alan Sisto]

I'm going to need to have a TPS in triplicate. Going to need to file. Where's your TPS report? Yeah.

[Sara]

But a frustrated Gandalf who definitely must be frustrated with Saruman at this point. He knew A it was Sauron in Dol Guldurg growing in strength and B he was preparing for all out war.

[Alan Sisto]

Of course it's Sauron. What else he's gonna do that he does?

[Sara]

Sauron's not learning how to crochet while sitting halfway.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah. And now I'm picturing Sauron crocheting. Hey, good job.

[Sara]

That's a good addiction. Yeah, but what Gandalf didn't know was how that would start, right? Is Sauron going to try to go to Mordor first, or is he going to attack his foes directly?

[Alan Sisto]

Of course, Gandalf eventually says he's convinced that Sauron's going to start by attacking the two Elven realms, Lorian and Rivendell. I want to ask you this, Sarah. Without the One Ring? Because, of course, Sauron hasn't had it now for a long time. Mm. Sauron would not know for sure who was holding the Three. But do you think he had an inkling or some sort of knowledge that these realms were protected by two Holders of the Three?

[Sara]

Well, I suppose what I would think is that if Sauron is, you know, crouching in Dol Guldur, having cast aside his knitting for the day, and he's trying to, you know, use his mind to push into Rivendell or into Lothlorien. Remember, Galadriel speaks about how she rejects Sauron and she keeps him out, right? So he's gonna know that his mind is not being permitted entrance at all into those realms. Which is gonna tell him, I think, that something is going on there. Something powerful that he can't push through.

[Alan Sisto]

You're right. I mean, in fact, as you said that, I remembered, even though I'm asking that question, we sort of get an answer, to an extent, from Galadriel herself. In the chapter the Mirror of Galadriel, we've had that moment there where Frodo offers her the Ring and everything, and she's acknowledged that this is Nenya, the Ring of Adam, and I am its keeper. And then we read, he suspects, but he does not know. Not yet. So, okay, he doesn't know. But like you said, there's a difference between knowing with certainty and having a pretty strong suspicion. And just the mere fact that he is unable to penetrate that with his power is enough to tell him there's something going on.

[Sara]

I would say so, yeah. That would be my thinking, anyway. And, you know, as always, I'm happy to be corrected on something like this.

[Alan Sisto]

I don't know that there's a firm answer. I mean.

[Sara]

No. No.

[Alan Sisto]

So little is told of, like, Sauron's own perspective, you know?

[Sara]

Right.

[Alan Sisto]

Like, what is he thinking at this Point. Anyway, it's just interesting stuff. I mean, Rivendell. And if that's the case, if I'm Sauron and I'm wondering, where are the Three? Because I need to go after those first, you know, since the One may never be found, I'm going to keep looking for it. But in the meantime, take out the Three. Okay. Clearly, there are two very powerful Elven realms. Then there's the pathetic little piddly Thranduil, here in Mirkwood, that I allow to survive. You know, suffer at my convenience. So Lorien and Rivendell come to mind. Who's got the third? Where is the Third? He's far enough away from the Gray Havens geographically that maybe his hunch is the Grey Havens. And he wouldn't have been wrong, in a sense, since Kirdan was the one who did hold it. But third, age 1,000, that ring was handed off to. Or thereabouts, was handed off to Gandalf.

[Sara]

Right.

[Alan Sisto]

Interesting.

[Sara]

It is interesting, and you're right. He would have been wanting to find the Three because it's all about regaining this power that has been slipping through his fingers.

[Alan Sisto]

That's why he wanted the last of the Seven from Thrain.

[Sara]

Exactly.

[Alan Sisto]

He's got to gather this power back.

[Sara]

Yeah, yeah, but however, we view that Gandalf acknowledges that attacking Lorien and Rivendell would have been the bad, better plan. But why?

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah, that's a good question. I mean, I was thinking that, too. Gandalf makes it sound sort of like that's the obvious. Well, I would have been a better decision for him and a bad decision for us, I suppose, because neither of those realms really rely on powerful physical defense. This isn't Minas Tirith with walls and, you know, all of that. Rivendell relies on its secrecy in many ways. Lorian on magic and on really skilled archers. But, you know, quantity has a quality all of its own. And if he were to send a large invading force, that could be problematic. Now, we find out later, at the end of the War of the Ring, they try three times and fail. Yes, quite possibly. Under the leadership of Kamu the Easterling, who was the second in command of the Witch King and was in charge of Dol Guldur. We don't know that, but it seems likely. I don't know. I mean, to me. But this is how I play strategy games. I would want to go back to Mordor first, build up a base. Exactly. And get my power back, and then come and attack. I don't know. I guess maybe just a Timing thing that Lorian and Rivendell are in no way prepared for an assault because they don't know that it's Sauron.

[Sara]

No, but an assault?

[Alan Sisto]

What?

[Sara]

You know, Sauron hasn't at this point.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah, he doesn't have the huge armies of Orcs and no other peoples.

[Sara]

But I suppose he would have the advantage of greater surprise because once he goes back and rebuilds Barad Dur and all that kind of thing then it becomes obvious, yes, Sauron's back. Okay then. Time to beef up the security. But I suppose what Gandalf is thinking is that if he just went straight for Lothlorien that he could have the advantage of surprise. Although, you know, I'm not sure Galadriel would be a pushover.

[Alan Sisto]

Now I'm just picturing the Inquisition for Monty Python. Nobody expects Sauron. Our chief weapon is surprise. Surprise and fear. Fear and surprise. Oh, man.

[Sara]

Monty Python is never wrong in whatever context.

[Alan Sisto]

It's like every episode in season two was named after a Monty Python quote. Just about, I think. Except for our Beorn chapter. And it's like, we still could have done that. There's just so much.

[Sara]

I'm sure you could have found something.

[Alan Sisto]

Oh, man. So Gandalf then walks through his thinking, first about Rivendell because, okay, Lorien's close to Dol Guldur. There's a geographic proximity that makes that a location under threat. But Rivendell, he's trying to explain that's not out of Sauron's reach or ability even at this point, when he doesn't have all of his power.

[Sara]

Yeah, because the North's in a bit of a rough spot at this point. Erebor is gone. Dale is gone. There's not a lot of folks left to stand against an attack from Sauron up to the northern passes and into Angmar and just the Dwarves in the Iron Hills. But they've got a dragon to their rear, which could be a bit of a. Nobody wants a dragon to their rear.

[Alan Sisto]

Well, no, that's true. Nobody does. Nobody does. That dragon is a problem, Gandalf says. In fact, Gandalf says he was saying that to himself often. I. I often said to myself, self, you're the wisest person in the room. What do you think about this Smaug creature? It is critical to deal with Smaug. We get that famous line we all think about about the dragon Sauron might use to terrible effect. But as important as it is to deal with Smaug that's secondary to getting Sauron out of Dol Guldor. I mean, the whole problem of Smaug is that Sauron could use Smaug in his attempt to take back those passes to Angmar. But if Sauron's driven out of Dol Guldur, he's not even going to try that. So instead of stopping the secondary thing, let's stop the primary thing. Driving Sauron out is the most important so he's got to take that to the Council.

[Sara]

Yeah, because I suppose that once you've driven Sauron out of Dol Guldur there's only one place for Sauron really to go and that's all the way back to Mordor.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah, I mean, theoretically he could go further east. He could go into Rhun, I suppose. But again, that's fine. I mean, go somewhere, right? Go, go elsewhere. Just don't go here.

[Sara]

Yeah, because it's just a bit too close for comfort, isn't it?

[Alan Sisto]

Right there. I mean, across the river.

[Sara]

Yeah. Yeah. So Gandalf wraps up his thoughts telling the gathered Hobbits and Gimli that he was thinking about all of these things as he jogged along the road towards the Shire. And we're back to the jogging.

[Alan Sisto]

We really are. I mean, I'm trying to imagine. First of all, I'm just trying to imagine Gandalf jogging. I mean, does he use a Fitbit? Is he carrying a water bottle? Was he trying to break the three hour mark in the marathon? I mean, he just. What is he doing? I can't see him jogging, let alone Thorin overtaking him. That's not much of a pace if a Dwarf is overtaking you.

[Sara]

Well, yes. I mean, maybe he's wearing a decent pair of Nikes and he's just doing it. Who knows? Oh, wow.

[Alan Sisto]

Maybe he's on horseback.

[Sara]

Now that's cheating.

[Alan Sisto]

That is cheating, isn't it? Yeah.

[Sara]

But considering he's doing all this jogging the Shire does seem like a good place to take a break. And he hadn't been there in more than 20 years, after all.

[Alan Sisto]

That's right. It was 2920, which is 21 years in the past at this point when the old Took had passed away. And that was the last time that Gandalf had been to the Shire. And he thinks, as I think a lot of us often do. I know. I. I always think this taking a break is going to help his mind find the answer. I've got a hard problem to face. Put it away, do something else and let the back of my brain sort of process that in the background.

[Sara]

You Know, let it percolate.

[Alan Sisto]

Exactly. And that's what happened. But not because he was able to rest.

[Sara]

No, no, because he had a dwarf jogging past him. Yep. He encounters Thorin on the road and that meeting is what begins the process of turning the things around. But Gandalf says something that is interesting. What do you make of him saying to my surprise, Thorin spoke to me. I mean, why would he be that surprised? Is there like some kind of weird dislike between the two of them? I mean, is Gandalf irritated with the fact that, you know, Thorin's constantly jogging past him on the road?

[Alan Sisto]

Or you know, why jogs past me all the time. He never speaks to me. Now he talks to me. What am I do. Going to. To do?

[Sara]

Yeah, yeah.

[Alan Sisto]

I mean I was wondering that too. Like why, why is it to my surprise. Gandalf. You're Gandalf. Doesn't everybody want to talk to. Only thing I can think of is just that Dwarves are often very inward looking. They're very, they don't.

[Sara]

Contained.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah. Contains a good way of putting it. And just the idea of approaching somebody doesn't sound like something Thorin would do. Thorin's the king too. Like if, if, if you want to talk to somebody, you're going to have my people reach out to your people, you know, so Thorin is haughty, we know that. He's very prideful. And so perhaps, you know, Gandalf was a little bit surprised. Like oh, he's humbling himself to even speak to me. I don't. That's the only thing I can think of now.

[Sara]

Dwarves kind of keep themselves to themselves, don't they?

[Alan Sisto]

They do. And you know, a lot of people used to think that the wizards were elves, right? At least the men did. I don't know that we ever get told what the dwarves thought they were. But if the dwarfs saw the wizards as being sort of either elves or elf like, or allied with the elves, I could imagine that being a reason why Thorin wouldn't want to talk to him.

[Sara]

You know? Yes, that natural suspicion. Anyway, you're like the elves.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah.

[Sara]

Yes.

[Alan Sisto]

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[Sara]

Yep, because the PPP has an amazing listener community, they're always coming up with great questions and discussions across all our social media spaces. Check out our Common Room on Facebook, our dedicated subreddit Twitter and more so on Facebook.

[Alan Sisto]

Just look for the Prancing Pony podcast. Real easy to find. Follow the page to get the news and episode drops, but join the group to get involved in some really great discussions.

[Sara]

And on Twitter, Instagram, BlueSky, Twitch, TikTok and YouTube. We're AntcingPonyPod, but if you prefer Reddit Twitter, find us there at R prancingponypod.

[Alan Sisto]

And if you want daily Tolkien content, check out today's Tolkien dimes on the PPP YouTube channel and on all your favorite podcast apps. That's my short format daily show with everything from Middle Earth Map Mondays to Fandom Fridays. And there's my new twice weekly streaming of all fun things Middle Earth on the PPP plays. Be sure to check both of those shows out on the YouTube channel for all the PPP productions at YouTube.com @prancing pony pod Sara, pick us back up in there and let's see what Gandalf says about well, my goodness. Thorin had something to say.

[Sara]

Ooh, my turn to read. Don't mind if I do. I promised to help him if I could. I was as eager as he was to see the end of Smaug, but Thorin was all for plans of battle and war, as if he were really King Thorin ii, and I could see no hope in that. So I left him and went off to the Shire and picked up the threads of news. It was a strange business. I did no more than follow the lead of chance, and made many mistakes on the way. Somehow I had been attracted by Bilbo long before, as a child and a young hobbit. He had not quite come of age when I had last seen him. He had stayed in my mind ever since, with his eagerness and his bright eyes and his love of tales and his questions about the wide world outside the Shire. As soon as I entered the Shire, I heard news of him. He was getting talked about, it seemed. Both his parents had died early for Shire folk, at about 80, and he had never married. He was already growing a bit queer they said, and went off for days by himself. He could be seen talking to strangers, even Dwarves. Even Dwarves. Suddenly, in my mind, these three things came together. The great dragon with his lust and his keen hearing and scent. The sturdy heavy booted dwarfs with their old burning grudge. And the quick soft footed Hobbit sick at heart, I guessed, for a sight of the wide world. I laughed at myself. But I went off at once to have a look at Bilbo to see what 20 years had done to him and whether he was as promising as gossip seemed to make out. But he was not at home. They shook their heads in Hobbiton when I asked after him. Off again, said one Hobbit. It was Holman the gardener, I believe. Off again? He'll go right off one of these days if he isn't careful. Why? I asked him where he was going and when he would be back. And I don't know, he says. And then he looks at me queerly. It depends if I meet any Holman, he says. It's the Elves new Year tomorrow. A pity. And him so kind a body. You wouldn't find a better from the Downs to the river. Better and better, I thought. I think I shall risk it. Time was getting short. I had to be with the White Council in August at the latest or Saruman would have his way and nothing would be done. And quite apart from greater matters that might prove fatal to the quest the power in Dol Guldor would not leave any attempt on Erebor unhindered. Unless he had something else to deal with.

[Alan Sisto]

Aha. You know, before we get into the discussion, I just have to say maybe Frodo doesn't remember all the story, but this is pretty impressive because you got Frodo writing Gandalf quoting Holman, quoting Bilbo. That's. I mean, there's a reason why, if you're looking at the text on the page Holman's quotes of Bilbo are just in italics. It's because there's already too many nested quotes.

[Sara]

Yeah. Otherwise you wouldn't be able to figure out who on earth was saying what about whom and when.

[Alan Sisto]

It's wild.

[Sara]

It really is, but I don't know. Did Frodo, I don't know, have a piece of paper and a pencil in his pocket and was doing shorthand.

[Alan Sisto]

I know. Was he doing stenography? Does exactly shorthand. That's what I was thinking. Oh, well, I did have you skip that first paragraph. It was the one where Gandalf explains that Thorin was troubled, just like he was himself. And that Thorin actually asked for Gandalf's advice again. Not something one expects from haughty Thorin Oakenshire.

[Sara]

No, not at all. And that is when Gandalf agreed to go with him to the Blue Mountains and listen. But Thorin, it turns out, was troubled with the things we talked about a couple of weeks ago. The loss of his ancestral treasures and the obligation of revenge on Smaug.

[Alan Sisto]

The obligation of revenge. And. And Gandalf tells his listeners here he's telling Frodo and, and the others, Mary Pippen and Gimli that Dwarves take such duties very seriously. I'm sure Gimli's nodding his head. Indeed they do. We talked about that a little bit as well, reading from Peoples of Middle Earth a couple of weeks ago that for an injury to a father a Dwarf may spend a lifetime in achieving revenge.

[Sara]

Which, of course, really resonates with Feanor and his sons and all that kind of thing. And we discussed at the time just what a very bad idea it is to pass down generational bequeathing.

[Alan Sisto]

Exactly. Stop bequeathing impossible tasks.

[Sara]

Yeah. Bequeath me a house, a nice table, you know, a horse and cart. Don't bequeath me a duty.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah, you're not giving me a gift. You're giving me an obligation.

[Sara]

Thanks, dad.

[Alan Sisto]

Seriously.

[Sara]

So anyway, picking up where I began the reading Gandalf promised Thorin to help because, after all, he wanted to see Smaug defeated because he knew that Sauron could use the dragon with terrible effect.

[Alan Sisto]

But Gandalf says that Thorin is kind of going about this the wrong way. He's thinking about defeating Smaug the way they got revenge on Azog through an organized war involving all the Dwarves. Yeah.

[Sara]

As if he were so great.

[Alan Sisto]

Exactly, exactly. And as difficult as that was because we talked about this after the battle of Azanulbazar the casualty rate was so high, and that was just. Of the Dwarves who made it that far. Think about all the ones that would have died on the way down because this. This series of battles took years.

[Sara]

Yep.

[Alan Sisto]

But I love the way Gandalf says it as if he were really King Thorin ii. There was no hope in that. This. King Thorin ii. And this little line about the way he's thinking is similar to one of the notes that Christopher Tolkien brings out when he talks about this in Peoples of Middle Earth. And this is basically Tolkien's notes to himself. Thorin begins to think of vengeance on Smaug and Recovery of his wealth. But he can only envisage this in terms of war a gathering of all his people and an attempt to slay Smaug. But it is difficult to do. The Iron Hills are a long way away and elsewhere Durin's Folk are widely scattered. This is not the time it was then. And the circumstances just dictate against this.

[Sara]

Yeah. And Gandalf knows this is not going to happen. So he heads to the Shire for his little holiday, as he planned. And then he hears some news that brings his whole plan together in his mind. But before telling us about this news, he mentions his past with Bilbo. He says he's been drawn to Bilbo in his early years and in fact he'd not yet come of age when Gandalf had last seen him.

[Alan Sisto]

That's right. Like we talked about earlier, it was 2920 when the old Took died and Gandalf last visited the Shire. That would make Bilbo either 29 or 30 depending on whether the Old Took died before or after bilbo's birthday of September 22nd. But I want to talk a little bit about what drew Gandalf to Bilbo. We read eagerness, bright eyes, love of story and questions about the world outside the Shire.

[Sara]

Yeah, I mean, are these rare among Hobbits? Just the last one, maybe.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah. I mean eagerness, bright eyes, love of. Certainly love of story. I feel like that's not a rare trait. Eagerness and bright eyes.

[Sara]

That seems odd, but maybe what he's thinking of is that this is an inbuilt curiosity in Bilbo.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah, and it's something we see in the Hobbit. Right? That sort of battle that is often won by the baggin side. But there is a tuk side to him. And that took side is what I think Gandalf is attracted to. I also have to wonder, given what we know of the story and how things all worked out whether he being drawn to Bilbo was not just a natural. Like, oh, this is a fun kid, you know, he seems like an interesting guy. Maybe the draw, like everything else we see, is a little bit of external nudge. Nudge.

[Sara]

Little prodding from Providence.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah, a little prodding from Providence as we see. Because the more we look at this story and the more. And we'll talk about this very specifically where it's like there's so many moments where one thing changes and the whole thing falls apart. And this is one of those moments. If Gandalf is not drawn to Bilbo this doesn't happen and the whole thing falls apart. So I kind of feel like one of the things that's drawing Gandalf to Bilbo unknowingly is a little nudge. Nudge.

[Sara]

Yeah. So obviously Gandalf has paid attention to Bilbo. We know from things that are dropped into the tales in Lord of the Rings and things like that that Gandalf has a fondness anyway for the Shire and for the Hobbits. But Bilbo is standing out for him amongst all the other Hobbits as being a little bit unusual, just a little.

[Alan Sisto]

Bit different and in a way that's worthy of that extra attention and we'll see later. Devotion, right? I mean, as we see him, sort of leverage that to explain why Thorin needs to, to take Bilbo. But we'll get to that. So this is where we get the news, right? The news that Gandalf is hearing when he gets into the Shire. He hears news about Bilbo. Bill was being gossiped about because, well, hobbits, that's what they do, they gossip a lot. His parents had died relatively young for hobbits were told that, you know, they died in their 80s. The actual numbers. Bungo. His father died in third age 2926 at the age of 80. That was 15 years ago. His mother, the fabulous Belladonna Took, died eight years later in 2934. She was 82. And that was about seven years ago. So here's 50 year old Bilbo. His mom died seven years ago, his dad died 15 years ago. So yeah, he's different than a lot of hobbits in that regard.

[Sara]

It is. This is something that I've pointed out in Tolkien before in various other places because, you know, there are other places in the Prancing Pony podcast, did you know?

[Alan Sisto]

There are. Of course there are. Love the fandom.

[Sara]

Yes, indeed. Tolkien has a problem with family. So many of the, so many of the families in throughout the legendarium are broken. So if we go back to the Hobbit, here we have Bilbo who is already thought of as being a bit strange because he goes off and does all these sorts of things. But at the age of 50, he's never married, has no children. His parents are also not around and they died young. Now why, you've got to ask yourself, why does Tolkien leave Bilbo so unencumbered? Well, that's because Bilbo can literally grab his pocket handkerchief and run out the door and there's nobody left behind to worry about him or for him to worry about. That's it. Because if you go to the Lord of the Rings and you think about the families in the Lord of the Rings, there are very, very few actual families in the Lord of the Rings.

[Alan Sisto]

That are whole, strong, tight, nuclear families. You're right. I'm thinking Faramir, Boromir and Denethor. Mother's already dead.

[Sara]

Yep.

[Alan Sisto]

Aragorn. Mother's dead. Father's long dead.

[Sara]

Yeah.

[Alan Sisto]

Arwen. Mother's dead. Well.

[Sara]

Yep. Well, gone.

[Alan Sisto]

Exactly. Exactly. There are no Dwarven mothers except for D. As we know. Right. Women.

[Sara]

Yeah.

[Alan Sisto]

That's a very interesting point. You can all of a sudden, as you mentioned, that you start to think of all these other examples.

[Sara]

Yeah. Where's Legolas Mother.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah. We have no clue.

[Sara]

Nope. Frodo's mother and father dead. Yeah. Sam. His mother.

[Alan Sisto]

Nowhere in the picture. She must.

[Sara]

Nowhere in the picture. Never once mentioned. And you pick up hints that she's gone.

[Alan Sisto]

I think she's in the family tree, but that's all. You know.

[Sara]

It's in the family tree. But I think she's gone, as in probably dead because she's never mentioned at all.

[Alan Sisto]

Well, as old as Gamgee is, that wouldn't surprise me.

[Sara]

Yeah. Now, you know, if you go. If you go to Theoden, his wife is dead. His son is dead.

[Alan Sisto]

Eomer and Eowyn's mother and father are both dead.

[Sara]

Are dead. Yeah.

[Alan Sisto]

Oh, my goodness. It just goes on, doesn't it?

[Sara]

Do you know the. I mean, we've got Bombadil and Goldberry. Right. They are married. They have no children, by the way, but they're married. The only family that is whole and has children in the entirety of the Lord of the Rings until you get to the very end is Farmer Maggot.

[Alan Sisto]

Oh, my goodness. I mean, I'm thinking of some First Age stuff, but that's. But even then, family stuff is weird. I mean, okay, Turin still has his mother and father, but not in a normal, traditional sense. Fathers and, you know, chained to a chair on Thangorodrim. Yeah.

[Sara]

Turin is essentially orphaned.

[Alan Sisto]

Oh, he really is. So is Tuor, and he literally is.

[Sara]

Yes.

[Alan Sisto]

Wow.

[Sara]

Yeah. Tolkien has a problem with families.

[Alan Sisto]

Well, and then going way off track here in terms of, like, this isn't even remotely anything we talked about in the notes. But I can't help but think of the fact that for Tolkien, his own father died when he was three. His own mother died when he was 11. This is hard, this sense of loss. It's why I Don't remember who it was that was talking about this. Oh, I think it was an interview that is going to come out later this season. He was quoting somebody else as having said that. I once believed that Lord of the Rings to be the greatest story ever told. And now I believe it's the saddest story ever told. And there is a sense of loss that permeates the entire legendarium. And a lot of it does come to that, doesn't it? A lot of it comes to family loss.

[Sara]

Yes.

[Alan Sisto]

Parental loss, sibling loss. I mean, you think about Faramir and the pain that he just exudes in the text when he talks about the loss of Boromir.

[Sara]

There is so much, so much loss within families. And things don't start getting put back to rights until the ring is destroyed and Sauron is defeated. At which point we have many weddings and many children.

[Alan Sisto]

Sam marries Rosie and he has more kids than. Than any other Hobbit before him.

[Sara]

Poor Rosie.

[Alan Sisto]

Because the old Toque had had the record for not only living the longest, but having had the most kids. Bilbo breaks his record for longevity. Sam breaks the record for productivity.

[Sara]

Yeah. Can I just point out that it's Rose that breaks that record. Sam has only a very small amount to do with it.

[Alan Sisto]

Didn't mean to imply otherwise. Would not be safe to imply otherwise, that's for sure.

[Sara]

Anyway, that was of kind. Quite the digression. But I just felt it was something worth noting that, you know, it's a.

[Alan Sisto]

Really good one, I think. So you're right.

[Sara]

Yeah. I mean, a lot of it is to do with the narrative. It is a lot easier for Bilbo to go skipping off on an adventure when he doesn't have to worry about the wife and kids.

[Alan Sisto]

There's often a reason why all the Disney princesses are orphans too, you know, I mean, it's the same. It just makes it easier to tell a story.

[Sara]

So much easier. It's. It's just part of the way in which the narrative works. It just makes sense. I get it. But then we find if you push it further, that there are a lot of characters for whom that wouldn't matter.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah.

[Sara]

And yet there's still a broken family somewhere in there.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah.

[Sara]

Yeah.

[Alan Sisto]

I mean, you think of Galadriel and Celeborn. They're married. They had a child, but she's gone.

[Sara]

Yep.

[Alan Sisto]

Now, in other versions of the story, they also had Amaroth, but that's in other versions. That's next. That's next season.

[Sara]

Yeah. So like I said, Bilbo is already being viewed in the Shire as being a bit strange because he's 50, but he's not married. And that is very unusual for a hobbit. He's. He's also seen as a bit queer because he travels by himself for days at a time.

[Alan Sisto]

He goes off, man, I would do that in a heartbeat if I could. Give me five days to travel someplace, you know, take a little mini vacation.

[Sara]

And also he talks to strangers, including dwarves.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah, that's no wonder he's strange to the hobbits. I mean, remember the Hobbits. Parochialism, folks. Everybody's strange to them. Even folks in the Marish are strange to folks in Hobbiton. And folks in the Buckland are really strange. I mean, where folks are queer. Yeah, exactly. It's. It doesn't take much. Or Hobbits to other. Even other Hobbits.

[Sara]

No, no, not at all. And the idea of being even slightly interested in anything outside of the Shire is just beyond their understanding because why would you.

[Alan Sisto]

Hobbit nature, really.

[Sara]

Yeah, yes, exactly.

[Alan Sisto]

But of course that's a good thing in Gandalf's mind because that makes him like a possibility for things. And it's that bit of news that serves as the last piece, the thing that sort of snaps it all together for Gandalf. As his mind has worked on the problem and now he's got it right. One, the dragon who can hear and smell quite well. Too well for the dwarves to take by surprise. Two, the Dwarves with their undying vengeance quest. And three, the stealthy hobbit who's longing to see the world, supposedly.

[Sara]

Yeah, but the text then says that he laughed at himself. I mean, did he think this was silly or unlikely or both? I mean, where does this come from?

[Alan Sisto]

I think the laugh might be like richly ironic. Oh, this is great. Thorin's gonna love this, you know. But yeah, I think he probably sees this as a real long shot, you know.

[Sara]

Yeah, throwing a hobbit at a dragon, that's definitely a long shot.

[Alan Sisto]

Dwarves first, who are gonna, you know, we're gonna find out next week. The Dwarves really have virtually no respect at all for the Hobbits. They see them as absolute, just, you know, worthless. Just a bunch of people to take advantage of in trades, you know.

[Sara]

Right. We talked about, was it just last week, I think, about how the dwarves would do agricultural things if they had to, but they really didn't want to ever. And what do the Hobbits do?

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah, agriculture. They farm, they love. Until the Earth. Right.

[Sara]

Yeah. So they look down on that, don't they? They see that as the very least of skills.

[Alan Sisto]

It doesn't.

[Sara]

It's not craftsmanship exactly.

[Alan Sisto]

Though I would argue that perhaps, you know, crossbreeding various kinds of pipe weed in order to develop better strains. You know, that. That's a. That's a craftsman skill right there. I think these, these people know what they're doing.

[Sara]

But yeah, there's certainly a motivation behind it that's fair.

[Alan Sisto]

So this idea, right, where did the idea come from? In People's Middle Earth, there's a note that says that Gandalf himself would say he was directed or that he was meant to take this course or was chosen.

[Sara]

Yeah, all very interesting words for us, aren't they?

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah, yeah.

[Sara]

Yep. So is this another outside influence leading Gandalf to this choice? The earliest version of the story as given to us in People's in Middle Earth suggests that says, well then I was, I suppose, chosen. And that while the Hobbits needed education and we'll get to that more next week Bilbo was chosen and I was chosen to choose him.

[Alan Sisto]

Chosen to choose him.

[Sara]

There's a whole load of choosing going on in there.

[Alan Sisto]

There really is, though. Whether anything was, you know, any person was making a choice beyond Gandalf or Bilbo is interesting. So whether he thinks this is silly, unlikely, ironic or something else altogether Gandalf goes off to find Bilbo to see what 20 years had done. And look, I know what 20 years has done to me. So y.

[Sara]

You know, I. I would hesitate to disagree with you, Alan, but folks, just be grateful this is audio only.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah, Faces for radio. That's what we've been saying for nine years.

[Sara]

But he wasn't there. Instead, Gandalf asked around in Hobbiton and got some info from Holman. Who's Holman?

[Alan Sisto]

Good old Holman. Holman. This is Holman Greenhand or cousin Holman to Hamfast Gamgee, Sam's father. Back in the ivy bush, the Gaffer's chatting with folks including Sandyman and old Noakes. This is in, I think in a long expected party when he says, I'd not long come prenticed old Holman, him being my dad's cousin. So that's who we're talking about. That's old Holman. So if anybody would know about Bilbo, Holman certainly would. I mean, he has the same position that the Gaffer and then Sam would eventually have, right?

[Sara]

Yeah. And Holman says Bilbo's gone off again and in Typical Hobbit fashion. Expresses concern he'll go right off one of these days.

[Alan Sisto]

Oh man, the hobbits are great.

[Sara]

Yeah. Holman relates his conversation with Bilbo. He doesn't know where he's going or when he'll be back and that it will depend on if he meets any Elves because it's their new year the following day.

[Alan Sisto]

I love that because it also gives us a timeline for when Gandalf returned to the Shire from. Remember, we know that he met with Thorin on March 15th. I mean, we're actually given that date explicitly in the text. And then we also know, according to the footnote for this passage, that the Elvish New Year began on a day known as Yestare, the day before the first day of Tuile, or spring. And that day corresponded more or less with Shire. April 6th. So he was actually in the Blue Mountains for quite some time. A couple weeks, yeah.

[Sara]

Indeed, yeah. Now, Holman seems to regret Bilbo's choices. Even though he admires him. He says you wouldn't find a better Hobbit. He's just a bit concerned about the fact that he keeps going off by himself. And that's not normal for a Hobbit.

[Alan Sisto]

Not Hobbit like.

[Sara]

No, it's not hobbit like. But this just prompts Gandalf to think things might be going his way. Yeah. I mean, after all, you've got this world eager hobbit off to see the elves. What a good idea to connect him with the Dwarves.

[Alan Sisto]

But he had to hurry. I mean, he knew he had to get back to the White Council in about four. Four months time. Right. It also gives us the timeline, that is, gives us the pressure because he knows he has to be there in August at the latest. So less than four months. Or Saruman is going to be successful in delaying action against Sauron again. That's been 90 years. We got to take action now.

[Sara]

Yeah, and not only is that a problem in general, I mean, it's Sauron.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah.

[Sara]

But it's a huge problem for the quest for Erebor because Sauron is not going to let an assault on that mountain happen without him getting involved.

[Alan Sisto]

No, we gotta drive him away before we make this attempt.

[Sara]

Yeah, right, yeah. So I think we should carry on with our next bit of reading, Alan.

[Alan Sisto]

All right then. So I rode off back to Thorin in haste to tackle the difficult task of persuading him to put aside his lofty designs and go secretly and take Bilbo with him without seeing Bilbo first. It was a mistake, and nearly proved disastrous. For Bilbo had changed, of course. At least he was getting rather greedy and fat and his old desires had dwindled down to a sort of private dream. Nothing could have been more dismaying than to find it actually in danger of coming true. He was altogether bewildered and made a complete fool of himself. Thorin would have left in a rage but for another strange chance, which I will mention in a moment. But you know how things went. At any rate, as Bilbo saw them. The story would sound rather different if I had written it. For one thing, he did not realize at all how fatuous the Dwarves thought him nor how angry they were with me. Thorin was much more indignant and contemptuous than he perceived. He was indeed contemptuous from the beginning and thought then that I had planned the whole affair simply so as to make a mark of him. It was only the map and the key that saved the situation. But I had not thought of them for years. It was not until I got to the Shire and had time to reflect on Thorin's tale that I suddenly remembered the strange chance that had put them in my hands. And it began now to look less like chance. I remembered a dangerous journey of mine 91 years before. And I had entered Dol Guldur in disguise and had found there an unhappy Dwarf dying in the pits. I had no idea who he was. He had a map that had belonged to Durin's Folk in Moria and a key that seemed to go with it though he was too far gone to explain it. And he said that he had possessed a great ring. Nearly all his ravings were of that. The last of the seven, he said over and over again. But all these things he might have come by in many ways. He might have been a messenger caught as he fled or even a thief trapped by a greater thief. But he gave the map and the key to me. For my son, he said. And then he died. And soon after, I escaped myself. I stowed the things away and by some warning of my heart I kept them always with me, safe but soon almost forgotten. I had other business in Dol Guldur more important and perilous than all the treasure of Erebor.

[Sara]

Well, he wasn't wrong about that.

[Alan Sisto]

No, he wasn't. Not at all. Few important things indeed.

[Sara]

Yeah, but now, having come up with this crazy idea Gandalf races back to the Blue Mountains to talk Thorin into it. Yeah, but I think it's going to be hard enough to talk him out of his grand plan of a Dwarf war on Smaug. But how much harder is it going to be to talk him into taking a Hobbit with him?

[Alan Sisto]

A lot harder. Degree of difficulty, 9.9. We get a reminder here that this is all being told well after the fact. I really do love the way this story is presented as Gandalf telling the story but with his own commentary like why I did this or what I was thinking about when I did X. It's really, really cool.

[Sara]

Narrative plus metanarrative. All in a story.

[Alan Sisto]

It's really both. Yeah, exactly. All in an appendix written by Frodo. I mean, again, it's just. It's a masterstroke, really. So Gandalf acknowledges. Look, it was a mistake to do this without having first actually met Bilbo. Right? I made this decision based only on the rumors about Bilbo. The fact that he'd gone away for the Elves New Year. Because, of course, Bilbo had changed since he was 30. Not even an adult yet. Because remember, Hobbits don't come of age till 33. Back when Gandalf was last in the Shire.

[Sara]

Yeah, indeed. I mean, Gandalf says to Frodo, remember, Bilbo had gotten rather greedy and fat. Of course he has. He's a hobbit. And now his wild, adventurous side was just a private dream. So in other words, the Baggins side seems to have overtaken the Duke side.

[Alan Sisto]

Oh, very much so. Very much so. This is a guy who's just very comfortable in his life. And who can blame him, right? He is wealthy.

[Sara]

Absolutely.

[Alan Sisto]

We know that. So of course he's, you know, a little bit fat. This is not a surprise that a guy who's a medievalist writing a story about, you know, sort of medieval kind of world that the wealthy guy is fat because that's. That's just the way it was. Because you could afford food. You weren't starving. What were you doing in my forest? I was starving. That comes to mind. But, yeah, I mean, I feel a little called out. Like in my 50s and feeling little fat myself. I'm like, come on now, Gandalf. Give the guy a break. Right? It's just age. But it isn't just age. Like you said, his wild adventure side, his tuk side, is now a private dream. And it's a dream he would never actually want to make a reality. Sort of like, I don't know. I think I'd love to skydive someday. No, I wouldn't. If you tried to get me on A plane to go do it. I would, I would. Absolutely. Nope, that's just a private dream. Let's keep it that way.

[Sara]

Absolutely. No, that's, that's completely true. Very comfortable. And you can blame him, you know, he's a middle aged Hobbit. He's got a well filled pantry, plenty of money, you know, he's got his own house, he's a confirmed bachelor.

[Alan Sisto]

Oh very much so at this point.

[Sara]

Yeah, indeed. So you know, he does whatever he wants to do. There's nobody to, to say no or to suggest that what he's doing should not be done.

[Alan Sisto]

And you need to obligations to keep him home.

[Sara]

Home, Right, exactly. So of course he's got comfortable. And if he goes off for a few little jaunts that's because he enjoys his own company. He likes exploring a little bit. But then he's going home to his comfortable hobbit hole, to his books, to.

[Alan Sisto]

His pipes, to his food.

[Sara]

Yeah, of course he's got comfortable. I mean who wouldn't?

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah.

[Sara]

So yeah, I mean Gandalf really, he didn't do this very well. He didn't plan it that well.

[Alan Sisto]

No, this is a. He was kind of winging it a little too much. Here we get a reference to Bilbo being bewildered. And I love the word choice here in Unfinished Tales because that is the word or at least a word used to describe Bilbo. In that moment, just before Gandalf arrives with the last four dwarves, including Thorin, we read this. Bilbo rushed along the passage very angry and altogether bewildered and bewothered. This was the most awkward Wednesday he ever remembered.

[Sara]

I've been there, love that line, most.

[Alan Sisto]

Awkward Wednesday, bewildered and bewildered. Yes. And so of course for Gandalf to say he was bewildered. Yes, he was.

[Sara]

Yes. Because what are you asking me to do? And why are you asking me to do this? And you know, what on earth is going on?

[Alan Sisto]

Makes no sense at all.

[Sara]

Yeah. And Thorin, not that surprisingly, he very nearly did leave in a rage. But Gandalf has an ace up his sleeve. Sleeve or rather a map and a key to be more precise. Yeah, and we will get to that later as Gandalf implies. And Gandalf returns to the story that Frodo knows though once again mentioning that it's as Bilbo saw it. Which you know, would definitely have its own slant, wouldn't it?

[Alan Sisto]

And of course, even by this point, of course as Tolkien is writing this and then including it in. Well, including it in what would have been the appendix, the Story of the Hobbit would have been retconned. Right. Because he wrote.

[Sara]

Yeah.

[Alan Sisto]

He rewrote all of chapter five, the riddles in the Dark Chapter. But Bilbo saw it a particular way. The truth was something else. But then what about Gandalf? If Gandalf had written the story, what would the Hobbit look like? What would the Hobbit look like if it were written from his perspective?

[Sara]

I think there would be a lot of frustration and annoying annoyance of the narrator. Yes.

[Alan Sisto]

Seriously?

[Sara]

Yes.

[Alan Sisto]

Stupid pocket handkerchief. You don't need one. Yeah. I think Confuscate and Babada. These dwarves would absolutely stay in there because he would feel the same. Yep.

[Sara]

Yes, I think so. So, yeah, I mean obviously you'd have possibly a little bit more of an objective viewpoint if it was from Gandalf's point of view.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah.

[Sara]

But I'm quite glad that we get it through the eyes of the Hobbit because he sees the world in a very different way. Gandalf knows this world far.

[Alan Sisto]

He knows everything. Yeah, yeah. Well. And again, that's consistent with what we see in Lord of the Rings too. That sort of. The story is often, almost always told through the eyes of the person who's least knowledgeable.

[Sara]

Yes.

[Alan Sisto]

You know, whether that's Sam or where there's Mary and Pippin. I mean sometimes it's somebody else like Gimli when they're going through the paths of the dead. But most of the time it's Sam. Most of the time it's one of the. One of the Hobbits and I love that. Yeah, I think you're right. It does give us more of a sense of exploration and wonder as we see things. Also gives us the full story. Again I've had written it ends in Mirkwood.

[Sara]

That's it. But yeah, it does give us that because we learn alongside.

[Alan Sisto]

Yes.

[Sara]

The Hobbits or those who know least in that moment we have to learn these things. And this is a really interesting way of us getting to know what they get to know.

[Alan Sisto]

Exactly.

[Sara]

Now Bilbo and I do feel a bit sorry for him here.

[Alan Sisto]

A little bit. Yeah.

[Sara]

Just a little bit. He didn't realize just how badly the dwarves perceived him. Fatuous means silly and pointless. Foolish, childish, idiotic. They really didn't think he was worth their time.

[Alan Sisto]

No.

[Sara]

Poor old Bilbo. But he also had no idea how angry and annoyed Thorin was. And. And that's not a surprise. He doesn't really know who Thorin is or what Thorin's motivation is what's underpinning all of Thorin's thinking. So, yeah, you get why he doesn't really understand just how angry Thorin is. Thorin is so angry that he believed Gandalf had set this all up just to mock him.

[Alan Sisto]

Like a sophisticated prank. Are you kidding me? Gandalf? I love that. And that's when we finally get to the thing that saved the quest for Erebor, the map and the key. You know, once again, we see in Tolkien this series of events, seemingly disconnected, often sprout out over time. And they're all connected. You know, we talked about this earlier with Gandalf being drawn to Bilbo, but even before that. Right. But for Gandalf going into Dol Guldur and encountering Thrain, he doesn't have the map and the key. And if he doesn't have those, Thorin doesn't go with Bilbo. And you could just follow that streaming of events.

[Sara]

Yes.

[Alan Sisto]

I mean, everything is contingent on each of the previous things.

[Sara]

Yes, but that's how Tolkien stories work, don't they?

[Alan Sisto]

I mean, that's why they work so well.

[Sara]

Yes. Yeah. I mean, think about chapter two of Fellowship of the Ring, Shadow of the Past, when Gandalf says to Thor to. Not to Thorin at all. Says to Frodo. At this point, Gandalf says to Frodo that. That Bilbo was meant to find the.

[Alan Sisto]

Race, in which case you were meant to have it.

[Sara]

Meant to have it. And that is a comforting thought because that's how things work.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah.

[Sara]

For Gandalf, that there is somehow there is a power outside of this providence, or whatever you wish to call it. That means that the things that happen are happening for a reason and things will happen in the way that they're supposed to happen.

[Alan Sisto]

It is comforting.

[Sara]

It is a comforting thought because when.

[Alan Sisto]

You are working within fate, it's only comforting if you understand all of the legendarium. I suppose.

[Sara]

So.

[Alan Sisto]

Poor Frodo. It's not very comforting. But, you know, in that moment. But when you realize it's the characters who are trying to kind of go against fate that end up struggling the most and having the most, you know, problems, the most difficulty, the ones that work within fate that sort of take hold and be like, this is my quest. I'm thinking of, like, Baron and Luthien. You know, they do what they know they need to do and. And it works because it is part of the plan. They may not know it's part of the plan at that point. I get that. But then when people fight against the plan fean or comes to mind, things go awfully, you know. And I think that's the thing here. It is a bit of a comfort. But. Yeah. I mean, Bilbo certainly doesn't understand that big picture. But that big picture is a part of this whole thing. I mean, that's what Gandalf's explaining here in this whole story.

[Sara]

Indeed. And that's why I think we read here that even Gandalf realizes that his acquisition of the map and the key now look less like chance.

[Alan Sisto]

I loved that. I love that. That even Gandalf's like, wait a minute. This chance meeting that I really thought was a chance meeting. Even that wasn't chance.

[Sara]

Right. Yeah. 91 years before this, Gandalf encountered a dying Dwarf, nameless in the pits of Dol Guldor. And we get a retelling of the account in Dol Guldur as well as his thoughts on it could have been a messenger, it could have been a thief. And he was pretty far gone.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah. But didn't know his own name.

[Sara]

Right. But he gives these very important things to Gandalf, you know, even if Gandalf doesn't know how important they are in that moment and says, they're for my son. And Gandalf keeps them close, just in case.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah.

[Sara]

I mean, just in case. Yeah.

[Alan Sisto]

I tend to. If I haven't used something in six months, I like to throw it away. That would have been bad.

[Sara]

91 years. Yeah. I. Hang on.

[Alan Sisto]

I'm not holding on to that through so many moves. No way. How did Gandalf have these things with him, though, at the day and time that he needed them? That was a question that kind of has always stuck with me. Like, I don't understand that. For that I want to take a look at peoples of Middle Earth. And the other note that Christopher Tolkien included. And here it's again, Tolkien writing notes to himself. So thinking out loud, if you will, he's asking himself the same question and he actually gives himself the answers. Why did he not then, or much earlier reveal to Thorin that he had met Threyn and Dol Guldur? Two answers. He had not met him talking about Thorin and did not even know where he was. From 2850 on, his chief concern had been with Dol Guldur and the Council. He had not been west for a long time. The old Tuk died in 2920. So Gandalf had not, in 2942, been in the Shire for 22 years. And then probably only briefly. He was probably unaware who the dwarf was in Dol Guldur, since the seventh Ring would be no clue. Dwarves kept the possession of rings very secret and Thrain did not know his own name. It was probably only from Thorin's conversation that he guessed and produced the evidence, characteristically at a suitable chance.

[Sara]

Ah, that's really good, isn't it?

[Alan Sisto]

Isn't it? I love it.

[Sara]

Yeah, I mean, he's absolutely right that, you know, from 2850 on, his chief concern had been with Dol Guldur and the Cat Council. He'd have bigger things to think about.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah, he's not worried about a map and a key for Erebor. Right, Whatever.

[Sara]

I mean, this little souvenir that he's been carrying around for his, you know, his little summer trip into Dol Guldur. You know, I went to Dol Guldur and all I got was this map and a key.

[Alan Sisto]

All I got was this stupid map. Yeah.

[Sara]

So, yes, he's had other things on his mind. But what we do know about Gandalf is that he can piece things together.

[Alan Sisto]

Yes, he can. Yeah.

[Sara]

Yeah. And that's obviously what happens here. But we'll look at a fuller tale next week when we look at the other versions of the text that we will. This episode is brought to you by Stay Farm.

[Alan Sisto]

Knowing you could be saving money for.

[Sara]

The things you really want is a great feeling.

[Alan Sisto]

Talk to a State Farm agent today to learn how you can choose to bundle and save with a personal price plan. Like a good neighbor, State Farm is there. Prices are based on rating plans that vary by state. Coverage options are selected by the customer.

[Sara]

Availability, amount of discounts and savings and eligibility vary by state.

[Alan Sisto]

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[Sara]

Foreign.

[Alan Sisto]

Folks, if you're enjoying the Prancing Pony podcast, please consider supporting the show by joining the fellowship of the podcast. That's what gives me the time and the resources that I need to work on making the show the best that it can be. And when you join, you become part of an amazing discord community. You get live episode recordings are so much fun hangouts every month. You get episode post scripts. You can get ad free episodes, free merch and more.

[Sara]

Yeah, what are you waiting for? Because they are fun. You could also become part of our Questions After Nightfall episodes or even join us as a guest in the North Wing. So Please go to patreon.com prancingponypod to show your support and join the Fellowship of the Podcast.

[Alan Sisto]

Of course, you can always help us out by giving us a rating and review on Apple Podcasts and a rating and comments on Spotify. And please recommend us to your friends. Before we get back into the episode, I just want to take a really quick moment to tell you about a project that's got a deadline coming up. Our audio editor, Jordan Reynolds is currently working on his next Kickstarter for his immersive Audio Soundscape projects. You probably remember the soundscape for the Lord of the Rings. Fantastic stuff even beyond that. I'm sure you've heard of or listened to his work already, but he needs our help to continue that work. So if you love audio music, audio books, or just spending more time in these fantasy worlds, check it out. His Kickstarter has less than a week left to get funded, and these are all or nothing, as you know. So it's really important that we try to get this thing funded before time runs out on May 24th. So go to the Soundscape of Time Part 2 on Kickstarter, that is. Go to Kickstarter.com and search for the Soundscape of Time Part 2. Check out the demonstration videos and consider supporting Jordan's continued work on these excellent audio projects. Sara, pick up where I left off. This is getting good, isn't it?

[Sara]

Oh, it is. It's getting right into the the meat of it, said the vegetarian, right? Fortunately, I did not make any mistake in my use of them. I kept them up my sleeve, as you say in the Shire, until things looked quite hopeless. As soon as Thorin saw them, he really made up his mind to follow my plan as far as a secret expedition went. At any rate, whatever he thought of Bilbo, he would have set out himself. The existence of a secret door, only discoverable by dwarves, made it seem at least possible to find out something of the dragon's doings, perhaps even to recover some gold or some heirloom to ease his heart's longings. But that was not enough for me. I knew in my heart that Bilbo must go with him, or the whole quest would be a failure. Or, as I should say now, the far more important events, by the way, would not come to pass. So I had still to persuade Thorin to take him. There were many difficulties on the road afterwards, but for me this was the most difficult part of the whole affair. Though I argued with him far into the night after Bilbo had retired, it was not finally settled until early the next morning. Thorin was contemptuous and suspicious. He is soft, he snorted. Soft as the mud of his Shire. And silly. His mother died too soon. You are playing some crooked game of your own, Master Gandalf. I am sure that you have other purposes than helping me. You are quite right, I said. If I had no other purposes, I should not be helping you at all. Great as your affairs may seem to you, they are only a small strand in the great web. I am concerned with many strands. But that should make my advice more weighty, not less. I spoke at last with great heat. Listen to me, Thorin Oakenshield, I said. If this Hobbit goes with you, you will succeed. If not, you will fail. A foresight is on me, and I am warning you. There you go.

[Alan Sisto]

There you go. Yeah, that's a great little spot to hold off on the reading.

[Sara]

My goodness, only a fool is going to disregard a warning from Gandalf. I would have thought.

[Alan Sisto]

I would think. Now, we did have you skip the first paragraph of this section because we inadvertently covered it a bit at the end of the last one. Talking about Gandalf obtaining the key from Thr ii.

[Sara]

Yeah, but it's worth a quick reminder that although he's usually just referred to as Thrine, son of Thror, he is the second of that name. The first was the son of nine. The first and the grandson of Durin vi. After watching his dad and grandfather get killed by the Balrog, he fled Moria in third age 1981. And he was the one who established Erebor 18 years later in 1999.

[Alan Sisto]

Also called Thrine the Smart or Thrine the Survivor. Like get out of Dodge. My dad's dead. My grandfather's dead. We're leaving. I'm out. Interesting also that since Thorin never mentioned the last of the seven. So I wonder if Thorin had known that his father had it. I mean, that's actually the first hurdle, because we know they kept it so secret, even Thorin might not have known. But assuming Thorin had known, what if he told Gandalf? My father had the last of the Seven that would have led Gandalf to know exactly who this was.

[Sara]

Right?

[Alan Sisto]

When he gets the ring, would he have then given the map and key earlier? And would that have been too soon? What if. What if Thorin, who doesn't trust anybody never would have told him? But what if Thorin had said my father had the last of the Seven? You know, he was never seen again. We believe he's been killed and the ring has been taken by Sauron and Gandalf's like, Wait a minute. I mean, yes, the ring is gone. I don't have any good news for you on that front but the good news is I can confirm your father's dead. And here's the map and key he gave me.

[Sara]

If good news you call it.

[Alan Sisto]

Well, yeah, he's not being tortured anymore.

[Sara]

This is true. But. Yeah, but the thing is though, as we know from the text everything happens the way that it should.

[Alan Sisto]

That's right. I'm just trying to imagine Thorin going off way too early without Bilbo. A hundred years before. Maybe even before Bililbo's born. Not 100 years, but no more than 91 years. But, you know, it could have been 80 years ago and tried to do the attack on Smaug too soon anyway.

[Sara]

And it wouldn't have worked.

[Alan Sisto]

No, it wouldn't have worked.

[Sara]

Yeah, which is why that didn't happen.

[Alan Sisto]

Why it happened the way it happens.

[Sara]

Yeah, exactly. Exactly.

[Alan Sisto]

So picking up where you did read Gandalf knew to keep the map and key as the ace up his sleeve, proverbially speaking.

[Sara]

Yeah, it was the key, no pun intended to ensuring that Thorin would make the effort. Wow. Okay, maybe the pun was intended. I'm just gonna leave it right there.

[Alan Sisto]

Just own it. That's right. Just own it.

[Sara]

Ah, yeah, it's the best thing to do with a pun. But even if he'd refused Bilbo he'd still have tried with the key and the map to find the door. Right? Of course. Because, you know, what is Thorin's priority obligation?

[Alan Sisto]

Of revenge.

[Sara]

Exactly. And at least some gold or heirloom might be found that way. Yeah, but can you imagine what would have happened if the Dwarves had attempted to go down that hallway to Smaug's lair? I mean, they're not exactly ninja Dwarves, are they?

[Alan Sisto]

No, no. Little Dwarven shish kebab, right there. Yeah.

[Sara]

That is snack time.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah, exactly. Smaug's Hungry Appetizer.

[Sara]

If they're wearing their armor. Oh, it comes in its own foil wrapping.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah, it's like potato skins, you know. So of course Gandalf knew that Bilbo had to go. And here in this retelling, once again, far after the fact, he's able to say that Bilbo's going wasn't specifically about the quest of Erebor, really. It was about the far more important events. By the way, he doesn't say that, but obviously what he means here is the finding of the one ring, full stop.

[Sara]

Right, yeah. Gandalf, though, he still had the unenviable task of convincing Thorin of the dwarves to take Bilbo.

[Alan Sisto]

Oh yeah, yeah.

[Sara]

That would take a few glasses of the old vineyards, I would imagine.

[Alan Sisto]

Yes, it would.

[Sara]

Now, from Gandalf's perspective, he says this was the hardest thing in the whole quest. Harder than the trolls, the goblins, the wargs, the spiders or the dragon, which, let's face it, Gandalf didn't actually encounter.

[Alan Sisto]

No, that's true. I mean, he was there with them, with the trolls and the goblins and the wargs, but then that was it. Yeah, but not the dragon and not the spiders. No. Yeah, and not the barrels either. I didn't even think about that. But the barrels were sort of a, a turning point. I mean, that's when Bilbo literally saved the them. Yeah.

[Sara]

Yes indeed. Yeah. But it, it does say something that this was the toughest bit of the entire quest for Gandalf was persuading this stubborn Dwarf.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah, yeah.

[Sara]

But finally we get the, we get the beginnings of Gandalf's recollection of the conversation he had with Thorin presumably after Bilbo had gone to sleep.

[Alan Sisto]

Exactly. And this is where we get Thorin again described as contemptuous. But this time he's also described as suspicious. Which is great. Right? Mostly suspicious. Not a Bilbo, but of Gandalf and his motives. But he's very, very critical of Bilbo. Again, in fairness, Bilbo was soft and a little bit silly. I mean, this is a 50 year old hobbit who collapsed to the floor crying, struck by lightning. Struck by lightning while shaking like a jelly that was melting. I mean.

[Sara]

Yes, I might judge on that one too.

[Alan Sisto]

I think I might too. I could hardly blame Thorin, haughty and contemptuous though he may be. I wouldn't want to take him along.

[Sara]

No, he wouldn't be my top choice.

[Alan Sisto]

He seems a liability, you know, a little bit.

[Sara]

Yeah. No, I think Thorin's quite reasonable in his criticisms.

[Alan Sisto]

I think so.

[Sara]

But Thorin even goes so far as to accuse Gandalf of having ulterior motives, which of course he does, just not the ulterior motives that Thorin thinks he has.

[Alan Sisto]

They.

[Sara]

They are definitely there because he's an istar, for crying out loud. He's got a bit of a job to do.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah, he does.

[Sara]

But this explains why Gandalf readily admits this fact. You might think your quest very important, but in the big scheme of things, it's really nothing at all. That really resonates with the end of the Hobbit, doesn't it?

[Alan Sisto]

It does. It. It makes me think of. Okay, I'm going to rephrase it and then I'm going to give you the other quote. Great as your affairs may seem to you, they are only a small strand in the great web. Tell me that doesn't ring a bell. That with this line that he says to Bilbo at the end of the Hobbit. You don't really suppose, do you, that all your adventures and escapes were managed by mere luck just for your sole benefit? You were a very fine person, Mr. Baggins, and I am very fond of you. But you are only quite a little fellow in a wide world after all.

[Sara]

Yeah, it's.

[Alan Sisto]

It's all about that perspective, isn't it?

[Sara]

It is. But as Gandalf points out, you know, Thorin thinks this strand is an important strand, but Gandalf's got like a bajillion strands that he plays seriously. He's literally juggling plates.

[Alan Sisto]

He really is. And I think. I don't remember where it is. It might be in of the Rings of Power in the Third Age. There's something that says it would have been nothing more than a footnote, the quest of Erebor had it not been for Bilbo finding the one Ring. That's the only historically relevant moment that happened here.

[Sara]

Yes, and it's incredibly important, actually.

[Alan Sisto]

Vital, central, essential, whatever you want to call it. Yeah.

[Sara]

And yes, when we get to the end parts of the Hobbit story and the dragon is defeated, this is a good thing. This is what Gandalf wanted. But in actual fact, it's a bit of a side benefit in the end.

[Alan Sisto]

It really is. I mean, it's. What matters is the finding of the Ring. It is an existential threat, the ring itself.

[Sara]

Yes.

[Alan Sisto]

Whereas Smaug is still mortal. He will die at some point. I don't know who wants to clean that up. But, you know, he's not the existential threat for the entire west, the way the ring is.

[Sara]

Right.

[Alan Sisto]

And that's why it ends up being the central thing. But it really is this big picture perspective and I think we see that a lot with Gandalf. I mean, I'm. I now I'm all of a sudden. Think of another moment Denethor, who's talking about the responsibility of being a steward. Gandalf's like, don't you know, I'm a steward too.

[Sara]

I too am a steward, but it's of everything.

[Alan Sisto]

Right. I've got a much bigger realm to steward than you do, man. And I've got to look at the big picture. I consider to win. If at the end of all this there's anything growing, right. You know that like, is there life after this? You're worried about your realm. You're worried about petty politics and the existence of a state. I'm worried about the existence of life itself in the face of Sauron.

[Sara]

When you think about it like that Gandalf has the heaviest burden of anybody in Middle Earth at this point. I mean, yeah, Frodo's carrying the One Ring, but this burden is a. It's a huge burden and it's a.

[Alan Sisto]

Burden that he has to carry for a lot longer. Yeah, you know, I mean, Frodo, to his credit carries probably the most intense burden but for a relatively short time in comparison to the burden that Gandalf has. But as you pointed that out, I was going back in my mind to the moment where Kieran gives him the ring because he senses that too. He knows that the job you have to do is the hardest job. And may this ring give you the strength you need to accomplish it. Once again, Kieran the hero. The unsung hero. Love that.

[Sara]

The unsung hero.

[Alan Sisto]

Oh, man.

[Sara]

Indeed. I mean, there's a fascinating little segue as well because we know what Galadriel is doing with Nenya and we know really what Elrond is doing because both of those Elvish rings are kind of freeze framing those two great Elven kingdoms, keeping them preserved in amber. Right. What is Gandalf doing with his ring with Narya? What is he doing with it? How is it helping him?

[Alan Sisto]

He's using it to kindle the hearts.

[Sara]

Yeah.

[Alan Sisto]

Now, I'm going to actually go back to the text because I was talking about how this reminded me of that Kieran moment. I pulled that up and of course, that ring had first been given to Kieran by Gilgalad. And then, I'm quoting now from the Silmarillion from of the Rings of Power in the Third Age. But he had Surrendered it to Mithrandir. For he knew whence he came and whether at last he would return. Take now this ring, he said. For thy labors and thy cares will be heavy but in all it will support thee and defend thee from weariness. For this is the Ring of Fire. And herewith maybe thou shalt rekindle hearts to the valor of old in a world that grows chill.

[Sara]

And that is such a different use of the Elven rings to the other two.

[Alan Sisto]

It really is. And it's also one of those rare moments of somebody voluntarily giving a Ring of power to somebody else. I. I can't see Galadriel or even Gilgal or, well, certainly Gilgalad before did give it to Kiran. But I can't see Elrond or Galadriel giving the their rings away at this point.

[Sara]

Oh, you can try taking Narya off.

[Alan Sisto]

I mean, if Celeborn said, hey, can I borrow that for a bit? The answer is no. Honey, you cannot.

[Sara]

No, you. You could just try and take Nenya away from Galadriel. But I wish he'd the very best of luck. And a nice deep grave.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah. I was going to say a very, very fun funeral for everybody else. Yeah.

[Sara]

Yeah. So anyway, let's get back to this big picture perspective of Gandalf's. Because he argues, I think, convincingly that his big picture perspective should give his advice more authority, not less.

[Alan Sisto]

You'd think he is right. I mean, all it takes is for Thorin to think a little beyond himself. And it should give Gandalf's argument more authority.

[Sara]

Yeah, but that's the problem with Thorin, isn't it? He's not very good at thinking outside of his desires in the moment.

[Alan Sisto]

No. No, he's not.

[Sara]

Yeah. And he concludes this section, at least with a firm, possibly angry prediction. If you take Bilbo with you, this will work. If you don't, it won't.

[Alan Sisto]

I love that Gandalf telling everybody there I spoke at last with great heat. I think that means I raised my voice a little. You know, Kendall sort of downplaying it. He claims that a foresight is on him, leading him to provide this warning. And I want to ask you, where do you think this foresight is coming from?

[Sara]

Yeah, that is really interesting, isn't it? Because when the Astari are sent into Middle Earth, they have to inhabit actual bodies. And these bodies, of course, as we know, can be harmed.

[Alan Sisto]

Capable of being killed.

[Sara]

Yeah, capable of being killed. And in order to actually inhabit these physical mortal bodies.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah.

[Sara]

Although they're Mortal in a very different way.

[Alan Sisto]

Well, right. They're more like Elven bodies in the sense that they're not going to get sick or die of old age.

[Sara]

Yeah.

[Alan Sisto]

They can be killed.

[Sara]

Yeah, right, exactly. But they have to give up certain elements of their Maiar traits to do that. So obviously, you know, being a Maiar means you can't squeeze yourself into a human skin suit.

[Alan Sisto]

No, no, you can't. You can dress up as one. Right. You're Raiment, but that's the best you can do. But then you're not really one of them. And I think that's the whole point with Gandalf is. Well, and the other Wizards, you need to be of them to encourage them and fight Sauron alongside them.

[Sara]

Yeah. But as to where the foresight is coming from, I mean, this is a fascinating question.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah.

[Sara]

Because I would point to. Before I, you know, even try and answer that question, point to what happens to Gandalf when he battles the Balrog and falls. Yeah, right. He strays out of time and he becomes something else. In other words, there are forces acting upon him from outside.

[Alan Sisto]

Oh, yeah, right. Illuatar, specifically. Right. I mean, Tolkien himself says Authority with the letter A in a letter, that Authority sent him back. Yeah.

[Sara]

Yes, exactly. The big bosses upstairs.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah. The Valar may have sent the Astari, but it's Iluvatar himself that sent Gandalf back after his death. Yeah.

[Sara]

Right. So I would suggest that if he's getting foresight on occasions, that this is a direct line coming in, being dialed in.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah. I mean, I'm trying to figure out, like, is this Iluvatar or is this. At this point, since he's still Gandalf the Grey. Is this the Valar, Right?

[Sara]

Yes.

[Alan Sisto]

Is this Manwe, or is this all the way up to Iluvatar? You know, there's no way of knowing which one. You know who it is. It could be Irmo, because he's the Master of visions and dreams. It could be Manwe as the High King and the one who's got the closest connection to Iluvatar. It could even be Iluvatar himself.

[Sara]

But it's definitely an outside influence.

[Alan Sisto]

Exactly. It's not him remembering the plan because, like we talked about, they gave up a lot of their Maiar knowledge when they came and inhabited these bodies. And there's a place, and I can't remember now if it's in the Astari chapter or in the letters of Tolkien, where he acknowledges that they don't. Like, they have to try to remember these things. It's not easy for them to recall their life in Valinor. Like they just can't do it. It's a. There's. It's not part of. Because it's not part of their physical existence.

[Sara]

Right.

[Alan Sisto]

Part of who they were, not really who they are. Because they are in living bodies now.

[Sara]

Yes, they are. So that's going to be a fun chapter when you get to it.

[Alan Sisto]

Oh, I can't wait. That is going to be a fun one. Yeah.

[Sara]

So in the meantime, before we actually get to the Istari, I think you should carry on the reading.

[Alan Sisto]

I think I will. I love this because we get one of my favorite phrases in here. Look after your darling. I know your fame, thorin answered. I hope it has merited. But this foolish business of your Hobbit makes me wonder whether it is foresight that is on you, and you are not crazed rather than foreseeing so many cares may have disordered your wits. They have certainly been enough to do so, I said. And among them I find most exasperating a proud Dwarf who seeks advice from me without claim on me that I know of, and then rewards me with insolence. Go your own ways, Thorodokenshield, if you will. But if you flout my advice, you will walk to disaster. And you will get neither counsel nor aid from me again until the Shadow falls on you and curb your pride and your greed. Or you will fall at the end of whatever path you take, though your hands be full of gold. He blenched a little at that, but his eyes smouldered. Do not threaten me, he said. I will use my own judgment in this matter, as in all that concerns me. Do so, then, I said. I can say no more unless it is. I do not give my love or trust lightly, Thorin. But I am fond of this Hobbit and wish him well. Treat him well, and you shall have my friendship to the end of your days. I said that without hope of persuading him, but I could have said nothing better. Dwarves understand devotion to friends and gratitude to those who help them. Very well, thorin said at last, after a silence. He shall set out with my company if he dares, which I doubt. But if you insist on burdening me with him, you must come too, and look after your darling. Good, I answered. I will come and stay with you as long as I can. At least until you have discovered his worth. It proved well in the end. But at the time I was troubled, for I had the Urgent matter of the White Council on my hands. So it was that the quest of Erebor set out. I do not suppose that when it started, Thorin had any real hope of destroying Smaug. There was no hope. Yet it happened. But alas, Thorin did not live to enjoy his triumph or his treasure. Pride and greed overcame him in spite of my warning. But surely I. That's Frodo, remember? Said he might have fallen in battle anyway. There would have been an attack of Orcs, however generous Thorin had been with his treasure. That is true, said Gandalf. Poor Thorin. He was a great Dwarf of a great house, whatever his faults. And though he fell at the end of the journey it was largely due to him that the Kingdom under the Mountain was restored as I desired. But Dian Ironfoot was a worthy successor. And now we hear that he fell fighting before Erebor again, even while we fought here. I should call it a heavy loss, if it was not a wonder rather, that in his great age he could still wield his axe as mightily as they say he did standing over the body of King Brand before the gate of Erebor until the darkness fell. It might all have gone very differently indeed. The main attack was diverted southwards, it is true. And yet even so, with his far stretched right hand Sauron could have done terrible harm in the north while we defended Gondor if King Brand and King Dion had not stood in his path. When you think of the great battle of Pelendor, do not forget the battle of Dale. Think of what might have been dragonfire and savage swords in Eriador. There might be no queen in Gondor. We might now only hope to return from the victory here to ruin and ash. But that has been averted because I met Thorin Oakenshield one evening on the edge of spring, not far from breeze. A chance meeting, as we say in Middle Earth.

[Sara]

If chance you call it.

[Alan Sisto]

Man, I love that. And I know we've covered a couple of those paragraphs before but when you put it all together, it's such a great story to tell.

[Sara]

It is, it is. And in some ways it's such a shame it didn't find itself into the main text because of it.

[Alan Sisto]

Oh, it's so good. I love this sort of telling the story after the fact giving us Gandalf's own insight into the why and his own thought processes. And we'll get to that, of course, as we discuss this.

[Sara]

But yeah, absolutely. Now Thorin somewhat understandably wonders if Gandalf is just nuts rather than filled with foresight.

[Alan Sisto]

Exactly. You want me to do what now? You're out of your mind.

[Sara]

Yeah. I mean, you have to remember that even Gandalf thought his idea was a bit out there.

[Alan Sisto]

That's true.

[Sara]

It's a bit hard to blame Thorin for thinking. Thinking the same thing.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah. I mean, Gandalf was laughing at himself, you know, like, this is nuts. But there's this crazy idea. Thorn's like, yeah, it is a crazy idea. So of course Gandalf gets in the usual snark and then makes it clear once again, if Thorin flouts his advice, it will go poorly for him. I want to focus just briefly on Gandalf's sort of separate standalone counsel to Thorin. Curb your pride and greed. Given of course Thorin's eventual fate.

[Sara]

Right. I mean, he says, as you say, curb your pride and your greed or you will fall at the end of whatever path you take. Though your hands be full of gold. Oh, oh, talk about foresight. It is exactly what happens. Yeah, exactly what happens. Because he didn't take Gandalf's advice here. He takes Gandalf's advice reluctantly to take Bilbo along but he does not take his advice about himself. And I think that is, you know, you're not going to take advice about curbing your pride when you're too prideful.

[Alan Sisto]

To take the advice to recognize that you need that advice. Yeah, that's the thing. I mean, as hard as it is for him to say, okay fine, I'll take Bilbo with me. It is sadly ironic that the easier, the arguably easier task of listening to Gandalf's advice about his pride proves to actually be the one he can't follow. And I know you said that he didn't, but part of me wonders can he? Like, is he capable of it? And you know, that's where you come down to the whole choice and how much of it is choice and how much of it is sort of dwarven nature compounded by the dragon sickness that he ends up, you know, experiencing.

[Sara]

Well, the dragon sickness, I think it amplifies his greed.

[Alan Sisto]

And his wouldn't have taken a zero greed and turn it into a lot. I mean it just wouldn't it like the ring in that regard. Right. It's sort of an amplifier. Yeah. And is hard. Yeah, it's hard to see because. Yeah. So when he does eventually get it, and that's the thing, if he never gets it, if he never gets it and he just dies a Prideful, haughty guy. You're like, fine, he gets what he deserves, so be it. Right? Mess around, find out. But yeah, but because he gets it at the very end as he's dying, he's like, wow, I messed up your heart. Just like, oh, what a good king you could have been with this realization.

[Sara]

Yes. Yeah, because, because he doesn't take Gandalf's advice. That's the root of his very, very poor behavior towards the people of Dale. And it's the reason why things go so badly wrong for him at the very end. You know what? He throws Bilbo out and he refuses to hand over even so much as a coin of gold to people who.

[Alan Sisto]

Had helped him, who had killed the dragon.

[Sara]

I might actually killed the dragon. I know. And, and yeah, he does indeed die even though his hands are full of gold. I mean metaphorically at the time because he's trying to wield a sword and hold a shield.

[Alan Sisto]

Right.

[Sara]

But he has all of this gold and yet really he has nothing. He has nothing.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah, it doesn't matter how much you have if you're dead in his case.

[Sara]

Yeah, exactly. So, yeah, Thorin, prideful, haughty Thorin, he's, he's hit a bit hard by Gandalf's counsel.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah.

[Sara]

But he, he responds instead of responding from a place of. Yeah, I'll think about that.

[Alan Sisto]

He responds from a place you make a point.

[Sara]

Burning anger.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah.

[Sara]

And he reminds Gandalf that he's going to use his own judgment in this, not Gandalf's. Thank you very much.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah. Like you said before, it is his pride that keeps him from accepting the advice about his pride. It's, it's inevitable. Yeah, that, that self defeating circle of pride. I even think of like Melkor at the very beginning, you know, and of his shame came a secret anger, you know, or you think of all these characters who they're called on the carpet and they have a chance to fix things and here Gandalf is calling them on the carpet. It's not, hey, avoid pride and greed, it's curb what you've already got. You already have these characteristics. You need to rein them in or they're going to be the end of you. And they are.

[Sara]

Yeah, it's that defensive response, isn't it?

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah, it's natural. Doesn't make it good. It's natural. Especially when you are suffering from pride. And that's the hardest thing because if somebody wants to call you out for some other thing that you've done, you can hear that if you're not prideful, but if they're calling out for pride, you've already got pride. And now it's hard to hear, that ain't gonna happen. No. So Gandalf, finally, and really without much hope tries a very different angle. And he's like, well, Thorne, you probably know I'm not a nice guy. I don't like a lot of people. In fact, I really don't care much about anybody, especially you. But I really like this Bilbo guy. Treat him right. I'll be your bff. I mean, that's huge. You will have a wizard here.

[Sara]

Yeah.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah.

[Sara]

Unfortunately, I'm not sure Thorin really values that.

[Alan Sisto]

I know, but he recognizes something in it, doesn't he?

[Sara]

So again, we get one of these moments where Gandalf stops his story and explains it to Frodo and the others. The why or the what he was thinking bits which are so useful for us as well, isn't it?

[Alan Sisto]

I love it. Yeah.

[Sara]

Yeah. But he's not shooting blindly. He knew, as he points out here, that Dwarves understand devotion to friends.

[Alan Sisto]

It's absolutely right. If you go back to the Silmarillion in the chapter of Aule and Yavana we learn there that Dwarves are fast in friendship and in enmity. And, folks, I don't think you need me to tell you, but I'm going to tell you anyway. Tolkien isn't using the word there to mean capable of moving at a high speed. It's not like, I just met you, now I'm your best friend, or I just met you, now I'm your worst enemy. This is the older meaning of fast, which means close and loyal. And if you recall, it was Gimli who said, when the Fellowship were getting ready to leave Rivendell faithless is he that says farewell when the road darkens. Dwarves get it. Like when they. When they are loyal, when they are your friend. They have a deep, deep commitment to that. And they're going to live up to that. And I think there's something here that Gandalf says that Thorin's like, that resonates. I get that.

[Sara]

Right, yeah. The stubbornness of Dwarves, after all, can be turned to something pretty.

[Alan Sisto]

Exactly. Stubbornness is just steadfastness. Maybe turned up a little too much.

[Sara]

Yeah. Turned up to 11.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah. As I actually think about when I think about my daughter.

[Sara]

I hope she's not listening behind the door at the moment. To that.

[Alan Sisto]

Go right ahead, Ellie, for a shot. Go right ahead, Eleanor. I've said it to your face. Beautifully stubborn. Yeah.

[Sara]

A bit. To Gandalf's surprise, Thorin actually buys it. Bilbo could come with us, he says if he's got the guts to do it.

[Alan Sisto]

That's right.

[Sara]

You knew there'd be a catch. Thorin tells Gandalf he needs to come and look after your darling. I do love that phrase. What the hell?

[Alan Sisto]

I can hear Thor.

[Sara]

I know.

[Alan Sisto]

It's like comes out of nowhere a little bit. Look after your darling. I do love that tone. And because Thorin can give as good as he gets, right? I mean, that's the thing. He's. He is not just rolling over, you know, with Gandalf kind of steamrolling him. But this is a win win, like I said. At worst you get a thief who gets himself killed along the way but might be helpful. But you get that powerful wizard thrown in for free on a very dangerous journey. The only challenge is that Gandalf kind of overshot the mark a little on this because he needed to deal with the White Council, Saruman and Dol Guldurs who's kind of like, oh shoot, okay, okay, I'll go. But really I'll stay with you as long as I can. Yeah, that's a nice little out.

[Sara]

Yeah. Talk about having to multitask now.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah.

[Sara]

So now we get the wrap up with Frodo and the rest as Gandalf concludes. And he starts by acknowledging something I don't think you ever really discussed in the Hobbit that there was no hope.

[Alan Sisto]

I don't know that we did. I'm trying to remember. I was thinking about that because, you know, we talked a lot about fate, we talked a lot about luck primarily because the films are still fresh in our mind. And as much as we love the Jackson Lord of the Rings films, the Jackson Hobbit films really downplayed that and made it, you know, totally got rid. They changed the meaning of that ending phrase about it's a little fellow in the world after all. And yet Thorin saying things like we make our own luck. So I don't know that we focused on the primary theme of hope and despair like we would in other. You know, obviously Lord of the Rings is filled with it. I don't think we talked about it in the context of the quest as a whole. I think we may have talked about it in moments like Bilbo not giving into despair when he was dealing with the spiders or when the Dwarves were all in barrels, things like that. But I don't know that we talked about it at all. When it came to the idea of, of the quest in general. But yeah, this is crazy. You're not going to be able to defeat a dragon with a handful of Dwarves and a Hobbit. Not going to happen.

[Sara]

But isn't this a very, very strange thing for Gandalf to say? I mean, you know, he's supposed to kindle hope. He's supposed to kindle hope and he talks about hope a number of times in the Lord of the Rings. And we understand that the opposite of hope is not hopeless, but despair.

[Alan Sisto]

Exactly.

[Sara]

And hence we get what happens to Denethor, for example. And despair is only for those who know the end beyond all doubt. Beyond. Yeah, beyond all doubt.

[Alan Sisto]

I think it was Gildor that had prompted that. And Gandalf's like, now wait a minute, you know, despair. No, we're not going to despair. Yeah.

[Sara]

So, you know, is Gandalf saying when he says there was no hope does he mean that Thorin didn't really have hope? Or does he really mean that he didn't have any hope? Because it depends on how you read that.

[Alan Sisto]

That's interesting. It does it really.

[Sara]

But the idea that Gandalf sent them off but he had no hope it just contradicts everything that Gandalf talks about in the Lord of the Rings to do with hope.

[Alan Sisto]

It's almost like, okay, I don't think you're going to be successful. You're probably not going to be successful. But I know that Bilbo has to go with you. And for some reason I've got this foresight that if he does, you will be successful. Right. Because he does say that. That's hope.

[Sara]

Yeah.

[Alan Sisto]

Maybe he's just referring to the idea that there's no reason to believe that this could ever succeed on its own. That there's going to have to be outside influence. There's going to have to be. Well, sort of that, Estelle. You know, the hope in some external source that will come in and save the day, for lack of a better phrase, that there's no hope in and of the quest itself. It's not only not likely to succeed it's an impossibility for it to succeed without some sort of intervention.

[Sara]

But it's a really interesting tiny, tiny little nugget there, isn't it?

[Alan Sisto]

It is weird to have Gandalf himself say that.

[Sara]

Yeah, yeah. And of course, at the end he also touches on that advice he'd given to Thorin that we were talking about there a few minutes ago saying that pride and greed overcame him. Anyway, Leading to his death. That's absolutely 100% true.

[Alan Sisto]

It is. But I kind of understand where Frodo's coming from. He asks, like, wait a minute, wait a minute. It wasn't like Thorin's pride and greed led to the Orc attack. I mean, yes, if the Orcs had not shown up and the Dwarves ended up fighting both the men and the elves and Thorin died, which was very likely to happen if the Orcs didn't show up. Then you could say his pride and greed led to his death. But the Orcs were going to come regardless. No matter if he. If he had given gold to the men and the elves there at the door as they were negotiating at the gates and then, you know, show us up, the Orcs just appear. I still think he dies. So here's the thing. Gandalf doesn't actually answer that question. He says, oh, poor Thorin.

[Sara]

Yeah, that's true. But there are many kinds of ways of reading the way in which pride and greed overcame him leading to his death.

[Alan Sisto]

Yes, that is true.

[Sara]

And I think that it's because it defeated him himself that he was not, you know, on top of his game, if you like. He was not the best Thorin he could be in that moment.

[Alan Sisto]

That's a good way of putting it.

[Sara]

Pride and greed had overcome all of his better, stronger qualities leaving him a bit of a shell of himself. And you can't face this huge battle when you're already battling inside yourself because part of you is just withering and dying because of what's happened. And, you know, the fact that you've got. We were talking about this word amplified. You've got the, the, the gold sickness, the dragon sickness, amplifying the greed and the pride that was already there. I think what you have in the battle of five armies is a Thorin that is not the best Thorin he.

[Alan Sisto]

Could have been, in a way. And this is a weird connection, but stick with me on this. Hear me out. As they say, Boromir had pride lead to his downfall, but it was an earlier downfall. So what we see is the trajectory of Thorin or of Boromir falling to the pride and greed, trying to take the ring, but then coming back and being the best of Boromir. And that's what enabled him to, even though he died, to be himself when he did, to do the good thing and to face and to die a good death. And Thorin doesn't have that moment until after he's mortally wounded.

[Sara]

Right?

[Alan Sisto]

It's only as he Lay dying, that he repents of that and changes. And that's, that's heartbreaking because with Boromir it means his death is a victory and with Thorin it isn't.

[Sara]

It isn't.

[Alan Sisto]

It's an unnecessary thing.

[Sara]

It is. Repentance is important.

[Alan Sisto]

Huge.

[Sara]

Right? That is a very, very important moment. The moment he has between him and Bilbo.

[Alan Sisto]

Oh, critical. I love it.

[Sara]

It really is a significant moment. But yes, he could not possibly claim that there is any kind of victory in his death the way that there is for Boromir because like I said, the, the greed and the pride amplified by the dragon sickness, the gold sickness, that's overcome him. He does not overcome it again with Boromir who also has all of that pride and agreed. That is a different greed. It's not agreed for gold and things like that. It's a greed for self aggrandizement almost.

[Alan Sisto]

For power, but specifically his power to defend his power.

[Sara]

Yes. Him leading this grand army and all that kind of thing. It's a different kind of greed. But it is greed. It's there, but he overcomes that. And so as you say, when he dies, it is a victory over the power that has tried to overcome him. That is significant. It is a huge thing that when he dies, he dies.

[Alan Sisto]

Well, yes, yes. And he dies demonstrating that repentance, you know.

[Sara]

Yeah. And nobody at the end just says, oh, poor Boromir. They sing him away in his boat. Whereas Gandalf, all he gets is poor Thorin.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah, poor Thorin.

[Sara]

That is a huge difference, isn't it?

[Alan Sisto]

It is. It really is. And it only just now came to mind. I, I know I've compared Boromir to other people a lot. I have. You know, I famously wrote the comparison with Boromir and Solomon. Again, moments of repentance. Because that's such a theme in Tolkien. I don't know that this one crossed my mind, but yeah, it's really very similar temptations, very similar falls, but very different moments of restoration in relation to death. And with Thorin it really is a tragedy.

[Sara]

Yeah. I would actually suggest that Saruman's death is worse even than Thorin's.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah.

[Sara]

Because Thorin is mortally wounded and he repents.

[Alan Sisto]

Yes. At least he does that.

[Sara]

Yeah. Saruman does not. I mean, when that sort of shade comes out of his body and it looks wistfully towards the west, that's it. You're already dead. There's been no repentance at all. Yep. And he's gone. Yeah. So, you know there's nothing left of Saruman. No, he's literally obliterated from this earth. Yeah. Whereas Thorin repents and he gets laid in state and treated like the dead king that he is. So there is some honor buried with.

[Alan Sisto]

The Arkenstone and with his. With the sword and everything. I mean.

[Sara]

Exactly. But Boromir rightly gets a greater honor than both.

[Alan Sisto]

Yes, he does. Yes. Yes, rightly so. That was a fun little sidebar. I really enjoyed that. Yeah.

[Sara]

Yeah.

[Alan Sisto]

Good.

[Sara]

Yeah. So while Gandalf acknowledges that sure, Thorin could have died anyway he as you said, just doesn't really address the pride death thing and he just moves on. I'm not talking about that. He moves on. And he does praise Thorin a little bit. Just a little bit. He says he was a great dwarf from a great house. He did accomplish the thing that I wanted. The restoration of the Kingdom under the mountain. Yeah, that's pretty much the kissing. So, you know, he says all of that. But then of course he tempers it with no matter what his faults.

[Alan Sisto]

Right, no matter his faults. And yeah, pride and greed led to his downfall. So that's when he shifts gears to D. Ironfoot. Now we've talked at length about him already. He was the hero of the battle of Azanul Bazaar. But it's at this moment, as Gandalf is telling the story post coronation of Aragorn or around the time of the coronation that word has reached him of Dyne's death defending Erebor which would have been a few months ago now along with the death of King Brand as well. And it must have been a hard thing for Gandalf to hear that news.

[Sara]

I would say so. That would hit him, wouldn't it?

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah.

[Sara]

Yeah. And he ends with the speculation about what might have happened. We've talked through this before, but it's definitely worth. It's worth the reminder, isn't it? Without the defense in the north of Dale and edible under kings, Brandon Dain Sauron could have done huge damage up there.

[Alan Sisto]

Huge damage. I mean Eriador, the whole region could have been swept up by Sauron's forces. Those forces might have included the dragon had he not been defeated at the quest of Erebor thanks to Bilbo's involvement. And had that been the case, let's be honest, Rivendell itself could have been defeated. That's what he means by we might not have a queen of Gondor. Arwen might be dead. Yeah, or it at the very least fled, you know?

[Sara]

Right. Like with her Only choice to quickly run to the the Great Havens and get on a boat. Yeah, exactly, yeah. So as bad as the Shire was when the Hobbits returned, at least is still there.

[Alan Sisto]

That's true.

[Sara]

Right. It could have been utterly destroyed without this, as Gandalf calls it, chance meeting.

[Alan Sisto]

Oh, man. So much on chance. It might all have gone very differently indeed. When you think of the great battle of Pelennor, do not forget the mailbag of Bree. Think of what might have been. Oh, we're not done yet, Sarah. Trust me, it's a long one. Junk mail and magazines in Eriador. There might be no Amazon deliveries in Gondor. We might now only hope to return from the victory here to empty mailboxes. But that has been averted because I met Barlow and Butterbur one evening on the edge of spring behind the bar at the Prancing Pony. A chance meeting, as we say in Middle Earth. Sarah, once you've wiped the cringe off your face, what does Barlow and have for us tonight?

[Sara]

I'm not sure there is anything strong enough to wipe the cringe from my face at this moment, folks. What you can't see is me gently bouncing my forehead off my desk. Okay, well, instead of doing that because, you know, bruise is gonna bruise, let's give you this question which comes from Anna in Halifax, okay? And she asks. In the quest of Erebor, Gandalf reveals his strategic motivations for involving Bilbo in the Dwarves quest. But to what extent does this perspective change our understanding of Gandalf as a character? Is he primarily a wise mentor or a calculating chess master moving pieces across Middle Earth? And how does this revelation affect our reading of the seemingly chance encounters throughout Tolkien's mythology?

[Alan Sisto]

Is he a mentor or is he a chess master? Yes.

[Sara]

Oh, do not ask the elves a question for they will answer both yes and no.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah, he's definitely both. In fact, I think we see a little bit of that in one of the quotes that we pulled from peoples of Middle Earth when he acknowledged, you could say I have been chosen and I have been chosen to choose him. So he is both a manipulator, if you will, a chess player, no doubt, moving pieces around, but he himself is being moved around. He himself is being used to accomplish this great task.

[Sara]

Yes.

[Alan Sisto]

That said, and his awareness of the grand scheme of things in the big picture, which we talked about at length earlier, does not contradict the fact that he also cares deeply about Bilbo and is a mentor. Are and does want to try to help The Hobbits grow. We'll. We'll learn more about this next week. But he really does have this sort of desire to educate the Hobbits like they are. They become too parochial for their own good. And he wants to. To educate them. And I think we'll read this next week. Something about how you cannot educate an entire people all at once. So he picked Bill Moe. And you know, that's genuine. That comes from a place of love and admiration for the Hobbits and for the Shire while at the same time he certainly wouldn't endanger the big picture to save the Shire. You know.

[Sara]

Right.

[Alan Sisto]

He doesn't come back with the Hobbits when Saruman is there.

[Sara]

You know, you can deal with that.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah. I've got other things to do. And in his case it's frankly just take a break and talk to Tom. But, you know, you guys are powerful enough to do that now which is because he's mentored them and brought them along and done these things. So it really is both. I just find it interesting that we see glimpses here of Gandalf himself being used. You know that he has been chosen to make this choice which is not something we often get a glimpse of.

[Sara]

No, exactly. Now, I think you're right because I think both things can be true at once. I think the wise mentor is who Gandalf is whereas the calculating chess master is what his task is.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah, it's his job. Right? Yes, 100%.

[Sara]

And one does not preclude the other. I think that somebody like Gandalf who as you mentioned, is a steward of the whole of Middle Earth somebody who has that very wide perspective of what is going on. Somebody who feels like his duty is to the whole of Middle Earth. Yeah, that person naturally has to be thinking about, okay, I need this to happen. These people have to go over there. That thing has to work for that thing to work. Of course he does, but that does not because he is not the CEO of some nasty great bank. He is perfectly capable of caring about the people with whom he's working and the people for whom he's working at the same time as doing what he must do do.

[Alan Sisto]

That makes me think of Rohan and Theoden because he knows he has to put Rohan in a position to not only defeat Saruman but then support Gondor. Without Rohan, Gondor will fall. And he knows that. So he. He puts things in motion to get Rohan there. But you can see in the way he works with Theoden. It's also from a place of care. Like he cares that Theoden has, has lost what he had. He's lost his greatness Witness. And he wants him to regain this. Not just because it means he'll have a powerful ally coming from Rohan, but because it's what's best for Theoden. Like he knows that, that Theoden might live five more years under Saruman's and Wormtongues thumbs and die of old age. Or he could die on the battlefield a hero. And what would Theoden want, right? Gandalf knows. So yeah, he definitely, it's, it is both. And that doesn't surprise me because Tolkien himself is a man of dichotomy, right? We see all the time this, you know, these unfair story moments of you catastrophe and the happy ending simultaneous with the Beowulfian moments of the Circle of Light and the inevitable defeat. And you know, that's what he is, a man of antithesis, as I think Dr. Verland Flger put it. And that's what we've got here, this sort of idea that these things conflict, but they don't. And big enough man to hold them both in his. In his head at once and for them both to be true.

[Sara]

Yeah, yeah, completely agree with you. But that was a good question.

[Alan Sisto]

It really was. Folks, that does wrap it up for another episode of the Prancing Pony podcast. But please be sure to come back next week as we learn that you Gandalf is inspired by Thorin's own haughty disregard of the Hobbits. It's going to be fun stuff.

[Sara]

That is going to be fun. I'm looking forward to that. And Alan and I want to thank the members of Team PPP editor Jordan Rannels Barleyman, Becca Davis, social media manager Casey Hilsey event and Patreon community coordinator Katie McKenna, graphic artist Megan Collins, and website guru Phil Dean.

[Alan Sisto]

And please take a minute to check out the Prancing Pony Prince podcast dot com. That's where you're going to find show notes, outtakes, Prancing Pony ponderings, including the Boromir Saruman one I mentioned. And our online storefront where you can get PPP merch featuring all the great episode artwork that Megan's been doing for the show since the start of season seven, I think.

[Sara]

Yep, indeed. And they're well worth finding because they're absolutely gorgeous. But you'll also want to visit our library page. The Prancing Pony Podcast is, after all, a podcast about the books. So if you're interested in a book we've mentioned on the show, you'll find a link for it in our library. And we do get a small amount of compensation when you make your purchase. So we thank you for that.

[Alan Sisto]

Indeed we do. We also want to thank our patrons at the Kir Dan's contribution tier. I'll start with demay in Alaska, Chad in Texas, Lance in New Jersey, Joseph in Michigan, Kathy from North Carolina, Carlos in California, Brian in the uk, Jerry from Washington, Joe in Washington, Irwin from the Netherlands, Ben in Minnesota, Anthony in Texas, Zaksu in Illinois, Sarah in New Jersey, Joshua in Massachusetts, Lucy in Texas, Keith in Alabama, Erica in Texas, and Vivian in California.

[Sara]

There's also James in Massachusetts, Ann in Kentucky, Sean in New Jersey, Mason in California, Maureen from Massachusetts, Olivia in London, Robert in Arizona, Nick in Wisconsin, Lewis in South Carolina, Thomas in Germany, Craig in California, Bailey in Texas, Kevin in Massachusetts, Julie in Washington, Bruce in California, Joe in Maryland, Nathan in Arizona, and Kevin in Pennsylvania. Thank you all so very much for your support.

[Alan Sisto]

Indeed, thank you. I could not do this without you all.

[Sara]

Now make sure you don't miss any episodes of the Prancing Pony podcast. Subscribe now through Spotify, Apple Podcasts, Amazon Music, or your favorite podcast app.

[Alan Sisto]

One last thing. As always, though, don't forget to send your thoughts, comments, and most of all, whether you think it is foresight that's on us, or maybe we're just merely crazed to [e-mail] Now, I'm not going.

[Sara]

To tell you which one of those I think it is, but if you want your voice literally heard, well, just send us audio of your question. Visit pod inbox.com and record your question for us. But please be sure to still email the question to Barleyman, though.

[Alan Sisto]

That's right. Now, even though Barliman's been a lot more reliable lately, there is still a lot of mail to sort through. We'll try to get to you just as soon as we're able. As always, though, this has been far too short a time to spend among such excellent and admirable listeners. But until next time, farewell folks.