373 – Let’s Go Crazy (and Take a Hobbit)

Summary

Episode Summary: The Prancing Pony Podcast - Episode 373 “Let’s Go Crazy (and Take a Hobbit)”

Release Date: May 25, 2025
Hosts: Alan Sisto, Sara Brown, and James Tauber
Season: Ninth

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Overview

In Episode 373 of The Prancing Pony Podcast, hosts Alan Sisto and Sara Brown delve deep into J.R.R. Tolkien’s Middle-earth, focusing specifically on the intricacies of “The Quest of Erebor.” Joined by guest co-host James Tauber, the trio explores the textual history of the quest, the pivotal roles of key characters like Gandalf, Thorin Oakenshield, and Bilbo Baggins, and examines how Tolkien’s narrative choices challenge traditional fantasy tropes.

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Exploring the Textual History of the Quest of Erebor

The episode begins with an analytical discussion on the textual evolution of “The Quest of Erebor,” as presented in Tolkien’s posthumously published works. Alan Sisto explains the existence of multiple manuscripts:

• Text A: An early, rough manuscript titled "The History of Gandalf’s Dealings with Thrain and Thorin Oakenshield."

  • "The earliest version is a complete but rough and much amended manuscript which I will here call A." (09:11)

• Text B: A more refined typescript named "The Quest of Erebor and Gandalf's Account of How He Came to Arrange the Expedition to Erebor and Send Bilbo with the Dwarves."

  • "This typescript has those two titles we mentioned earlier. I really enjoy them." (12:21)

• Text C: A condensed version published in Unfinished Tales, noted for its economical and tightly constructed narrative.

  • "Christopher calls C, even though it turns out there's kind of a text proto A, I guess, pre A." (11:33)

Sara Brown adds context by referencing Douglas A. Anderson’s Annotated Hobbit, which provides additional insights and excerpts from these manuscripts, enhancing the understanding of Tolkien’s expansive lore.

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Gandalf’s Relationship with the Dwarves and the Role of Hobbits

A significant portion of the discussion centers on Gandalf’s interactions with the House of Durin and the surprising emphasis on Hobbits rather than Dwarves in his quest to reclaim Erebor.

• Gandalf and Thorin’s Meeting:
  • "They say you are wise and know more than most of what goes on in the world. Will you come home with me and hear me and give me your counsel?" (02:50)

Hosts analyze the lack of prior relationship between Gandalf and Thorin, questioning the strategic oversight given Gandalf’s long tenure in Middle-earth.

• "They say you're wise because you're right." (28:22)

• Selection of Bilbo Baggins:

  • "I want to dash with the Took, but not too much, Master Peregrine." (64:08)
  • The discussion highlights how Gandalf chose Bilbo not for extraordinary lineage or powers, but for his ordinary hobbit nature, which in itself is portrayed as a strength.

Sara Brown emphasizes how this choice challenges the traditional "chosen one" narrative in fantasy literature, suggesting that Tolkien elevates ordinary characters to heroic status:

• "They are special, but they're still Hobbits, which makes them very ordinary." (105:52)

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Themes of Fate vs. Free Will

The conversation delves into the philosophical underpinnings of Tolkien’s work, particularly the interplay between fate and free will.

• Frodo’s Reflection:

  • "I may have thought of Dwarves before." (29:43)
  • Sara Brown and Alan Sisto discuss how Tolkien masterfully weaves characters’ destinies with their personal choices, reinforcing that heroes are defined by their decisions rather than their inherent qualities or destinies.

• Elrond’s Insight at the Council of Elrond:

  • "This task is appointed for you, Frodo." (52:20)
  • The hosts explore how this duality emphasizes that while certain paths are destined, the choices individuals make are crucial in shaping outcomes.

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Character Dynamics and Critiques

The episode offers a critical look at the dwarf characters, particularly Thorin Oakenshield and Balin, highlighting their arrogance and condescension towards Hobbits.

• Thorin’s Misconceptions:

  • "These villagers have lived in the Shire some 1400 years and they have learned many things in the time they had dealings with the Elves and with the Dwarves." (88:44)
  • The hosts critique Thorin’s narrow-mindedness and underestimation of Hobbits, which Gandalf leverages to inaugurate the quest.

• Gandalf’s Sarcasm and Frustration:

  • "I wish you would not always speak so confidently without knowledge." (87:30)
  • This line underscores Gandalf’s frustration with dwarf arrogance and his strategic patience in guiding Thorin towards involving Bilbo.

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Impact of Small Oversights and Sauron’s Strategy

A recurring theme in the discussion is how minor mistakes and miscalculations by characters like Sauron and Thorin have profound consequences in the broader narrative.

• Sauron’s Missteps:
  • "Small oversights often do prove fatal." (90:07)
  • The hosts reflect on how Sauron’s inability to foresee or counter key actions leads to his eventual downfall.

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Listener Engagement and Q&A

Towards the end of the episode, listeners contribute questions that the hosts address collaboratively. One notable question from Layli in France examines how Gandalf’s choice of Bilbo as the quest’s ring-bearer subverts traditional fantasy hero archetypes, positing that Bilbo’s inherent hobbit qualities render him a more compelling and relatable hero.

Sara Brown responds by emphasizing the power of ordinary characters:

• "It's why they are so special, but they're still Hobbits, which makes them very ordinary." (105:52)

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Conclusion and Looking Forward

As the episode wraps up, the hosts reflect on the depth and complexity of Tolkien’s world-building, expressing anticipation for future discussions on additional appendices and character arcs. They tease upcoming topics related to timelines, calendars, languages, and further explorations of Middle-earth’s lore.

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Notable Quotes

• Alan Sisto:

  • "Small oversights often do prove fatal." (90:07)

• Sara Brown:

  • "They are special, but they're still Hobbits, which makes them very ordinary." (105:52)

• Gandalf (in-text quote):

  • "I wish you would not always speak so confidently without knowledge." (87:30)

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Key Takeaways

• Textual Evolution: Understanding the different manuscript versions of “The Quest of Erebor” provides deeper insights into Tolkien’s creative process.

• Character Selection: Gandalf’s strategic choice of Bilbo emphasizes the strength found in ordinary individuals, challenging traditional hero archetypes.

• Theme Exploration: The interplay of fate and free will is a central theme, illustrating how personal choices shape the destiny of Middle-earth.

• Cultural Critique: The hosts critically analyze the dwarf’s arrogance and its implications on the narrative’s progression.

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For fans eager to delve deeper into Tolkien’s world and explore complex character dynamics and thematic elements, Episode 373 offers a rich and engaging discussion that enhances the appreciation of Middle-earth’s enduring legacy.

Transcript

[Alan Sisto]

Location the lab. Quentin only has 24 hours to sell his car.

[Sara Brown]

Is that even possible?

[Alan Sisto]

He goes to Carvana.com what is this?

[Sara Brown]

A movie trailer?

[Alan Sisto]

He ignores the doubters, enters his license plate. Wow, that's a great offer. The car is sold. But will Carvana pick it up in time for. They'll literally pick it up tomorrow morning. Done with the dramatics. Car selling in record time.

[Quentin]

Save your time.

[Alan Sisto]

Go to Carvana.com and sell your car today.

[Sara Brown]

Pickup fees may apply.

[Alan Sisto]

Put us in a box. Go ahead. That just gives us something to break out of. Because the next generation 2025 GMC terrain elevation is raising the standard of what comes standard. As far as expectations go, why meet them when you can shatter them? What we choose to challenge, we challenge completely. We are professional grade. Visit gmc.com to learn more. Good evening, little masters, and welcome to episode 373 of the Prancing Pony podcast, where I have not yet played any part in the fortune of Durin's house.

[Sara Brown]

Yeah, it seems a little unlikely that you have a will that's fair. Folks, pull up a bench in the common room and join us. I'm Sara, Shieldmaiden of Rohan, and I'm here with the man of the west whom even Thorin could not confuse with Gandalf. Alan Sisto.

[Alan Sisto]

Something about you are wise and know more than most is the difference, I'm presuming.

[Sara Brown]

Lol. Lol.

[Alan Sisto]

Lol. It's not the beard anymore. I look old enough now.

[Sara Brown]

I'm making zero comment there. I think that would be best, probably.

[Alan Sisto]

Folks, join us as we explore the quest of Erebor more thoroughly by looking at previous versions of the text in Unfinished Tales and and in an unexpected Source as we finish our sidebar from Appendix A3 on the dwarves and sadly, our time together this season with Dr. Sarah Brown.

[Sara Brown]

Well, I will not say do not weep, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah, yeah, some tears are an evil though.

[Sara Brown]

Okay, tissues at the ready, folks. No matter how you arrived, you're all welcome here in the common room at the Prancing Pony Podcast. We are reading and talking our way through Middle Earth with plenty of speculation and some bad jokes along the way.

[Alan Sisto]

No doubt about that. Now. We do love our deep dive into the lore, though, discussing our favorite themes and a whole lot more.

[Sara Brown]

Yep. But we try to keep it light and fun, like a couple of friends chatting at the pub. And we're really glad you've joined us.

[Alan Sisto]

We are, and I'm sure you'll be glad you joined as well. But before we get to tonight's chapter discussion, it's time for an intro segment with a twist, but one we haven't seen much this season. Meanwhile, elsewhere in Middle Earth. Now, Sean and I originally created this segment to help us through the wild timelines of Book three and as characters and events were happening all over the place at the exact same time. This time around, though, we want to look at the broader picture of what's happening in Middle Earth around the time of the Quest of Erebor. So to do that, we're going to spread really wide. We're going to go plus minus 12 years from the date of the quest, and that took place in 2941, which means we're covering events from 2929 to 2953.

[Sara Brown]

Now, a couple of these events took place earlier in my time here on the PPP this season, in episode 366, we learned a lot more about the story of Gilrain. Her marriage to Arathorn ii took place 12 years before the quest of Erebor in 2929. In the next year, Arathorn became the chieftain of the Dunedain, and the year after that, 2931 saw the birth of.

[Alan Sisto]

Aragorn, going back though to that year when Arathorn became the chieftain of the Dunedain. That's 2930. That's also the year that Denethor II, the future steward of Gondor, was born, making him a year older than aragorn. But in 2933, when Aragorn was only two, his father died, making him the tiny little chieftain of the Dunedain.

[Sara Brown]

Baby chieftain.

[Alan Sisto]

Baby chieftain Gil Rhine took him to Rivendell, where he was treated as the son of Elrond. And then that same year, 2933 also marks the year when Pippin's father Paladin took the second was born.

[Sara Brown]

Now, thanks to the Hobbit genealogies, we have a lot of other births and deaths of Hobbits noted during this time frame, so we'll just mention some of the bigger names here. Belladonna Took also Baggins, Bilbo's mother. She died in 2934. Now, two years later, in 2936, Esmeralda took also. Then Brandybuck was born, and she was the mother, of course, of Merry right.

[Alan Sisto]

Now, stepping out of the Shire briefly a few Years later, in 2939, just two years before the quest, Saruman discovered that Sauron was searching the Gladden Fields for the One Ring. And while we'll Talk about the quest itself some more. 1 hobbit birth of note took place in that same year that Bilbo found the One Ring. A Tolman Cotton was born in 2941. That would be old Tom Farmer Cotton himself.

[Sara Brown]

Ah, Sam's future father in law. Now, the year after the quest in 2942 saw Sauron return to Mordor after fleeing Dol Guldur. And the year after that, 2943 marked the marriage of Thengel, who was then Prince of Rohan and Morwen Steelsheen of Gondor the parents of Theoden who would be born five years later in 2948. Which is still well within our window.

[Alan Sisto]

That's right now, 2948. So we're talking just a couple of years after the quest would see Dale rebuilt. It was also the year that Gollum came out from under the Misty Mountains to begin his hunt for the One Ring. Lots of things happening.

[Sara Brown]

Yes, yeah, indeed. Now I already mentioned the birth of Theoden in 2948. So if we just hop along to 2949 that's when Gandalf and Balin visited the Shire to catch up a little bit with Bilbo.

[Alan Sisto]

And then the following year, 2950 was the year that Finduilas was born. She would go on to marry Denethor, 20 years her senior and bear two sons, Boromir and Faramir.

[Sara Brown]

And in 2951, the bad guys get to work. Sauron sent three Nazgul to reoccupy Dol Guldor while he began construction or rather reconstruction on Barad Dur.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah, he didn't have to lay the foundations anymore. They were still there. So the next year, 2952 just 11 years after the quest we're still within that little window here. Saw Elrond reveal Aragorn's true name and lineage to him. He also gave him the shards of Narsil, but kept the scepter of Annuminus. And that same young Aragorn that year also met Arwen in the woods. So another of the moments that we've talked about.

[Sara Brown]

Indeed at length. So in the last year of our 24 year span that's 2953, the White Council met for the final time. The steward Turgon died and Ecthelion ii, who's the father of Denethor, became the ruling steward. And the same year saw King Fengel die. And Thengel, father of Theoden, becomes king of Rohan. Lots happening, as you say, lots.

[Alan Sisto]

Which is really kind of different because if you look at the timeline before that, there's just not a lot happening.

[Sara Brown]

So, I mean, what can we take from that? It's almost like things are starting to build right towards what's going to happen.

[Alan Sisto]

They really are. And, you know, you want to think, oh, this is, you know, it's Sauron, you know, behind the scenes, and he's getting ready and stuff. And some of it's that, but some of it's just ordinary things happening. When you look at it with the big picture that we talk about on last week and this week especially, you know, when we talk about being chosen to do these things and you were meant to do this and meant to do that, you look at all these pieces being put into place. That's what I'm seeing is the puzzle pieces are coming together. Aragorn is growing into a man thing is now king. So Theoden is preparing to be the leader of Rohan that he'll need to be. All of these things are happening. Boromir and Faramir are going to be born now that Funduilas has been born. There's all these things that are the necessary steps to lay the foundation for the War of the Ring that will be happening some. Well, 3019. So, you know, somewhat 70 years later.

[Sara Brown]

That's right, yes. So things, as you say, starting to come together, starting to build, because so many things have to come together for the events to actually take place.

[Alan Sisto]

It always amazes me that Tolkien keeps these things straight and keeps records of all of it.

[Sara Brown]

I know, right.

[Alan Sisto]

When you realize just how complicated that timeline is. And we also have, like, all the Hobbit genealogies and farmer Cotton being born and, you know, all of these things. It's just.

[Sara Brown]

And the fact that he just had paper on which to record all this. I mean, you and I would be using spreadsheets.

[Alan Sisto]

Oh, I would absolutely be using Excel for this, no doubt.

[James Tauber]

Oh, man.

[Sara Brown]

Anyway, talking of puzzle pieces coming together, I think we should perhaps begin our readings for this week.

[Alan Sisto]

I think we should. And I'm actually going to read something that isn't part of the story. So starting with the appendix after the Quest of Erebor, where Christopher Tolkien gives us some more information. The textual situation in this piece is complex and hard to unravel. Gee, thank you, Christopher.

[Sara Brown]

Yes, it is.

[Alan Sisto]

The earliest version is a complete but rough and much amended manuscript which I will here call A. It bears the title the History of Gandalf's Dealings with Thrain and Thorin Oakenshield. From this, a typescript B was made with a great deal of further alteration, though mostly of a very minor kind. This is entitled the Quest of Erebor and also Gandalf's account of how he came to arrange the expedition to Erebor and send Bilbo with the dwarves. How's that for a title?

[Sara Brown]

I love that.

[Alan Sisto]

It is great. Christopher then says some extensive extracts from the typescript text are given below. And in fact we're going to get to cover more than these extensive extracts as we'll get get to shortly. Now, in addition to A and B, Christopher says the earlier version, there is another manuscript, C, untitled, which tells the story in a more economical and tightly constructed form, omitting a good deal from the first version and introducing some new elements, but also, particularly in the latter part, largely retaining the original writing. It seems to me Christopher says, to be quite certain that C is later than B, and C is the version that has been given above. That is the one we covered last week, although some writing has apparently been lost from the beginning, setting the scene in Minas Tirith for Gandalf's recollections. The opening paragraphs of B given below are almost identical with a passage in Appendix A3, Durin's Folk, and obviously depend on the narrative concerning Thror and Thrain that precedes them in Appendix A. Which, dear listeners, is precisely why we'll skip them. While the ending of the Quest of Erebor is also found in almost exactly the same words in Appendix A3, here again in the mouth of Gandalf speaking to Frodo and Gimli in Minas Tirith, in view of the letter cited in the introduction, and we'll give that text to you in our conversation, it is clear that my father wrote the Quest of Erebor to stand as part of the narrative of Durin's Folk in Appendix.

[Sara Brown]

A. I think if we ever, ever are dumb enough to question the debt that we owe Christopher Tolkien.

[Alan Sisto]

My goodness, how can we? Anybody who's even glanced just glanced at the history of Middle Earth or unfinished tales, or even the Silmarillion. Hello. It would not exist on our shelves were it not for no exactly incredible labors.

[Sara Brown]

It's the fact that he has puzzled all of this stuff out so that we have it to read.

[Alan Sisto]

Breathtaking scope.

[Sara Brown]

Yeah, it is. So, as you mentioned at the very beginning, we're starting not by reading any of the story itself, but by looking at Christopher's explanation of the textual history here.

[Alan Sisto]

Right?

[Sara Brown]

And so what we have is a rough and heavily edited document in his father's handwriting could. Lord bless you. Christopher being able to read that, that he calls text A, which was originally titled the History of Gandalf's Dealings with Thrion and Thorin Oakenshield.

[Alan Sisto]

Text A is a much simpler title. From that, Tolkien made a typescript that Christopher calls B. It does have a lot of changes from A, he acknowledges, but they're mostly small. And this typescript has those two titles we mentioned earlier. I really enjoy them. The Quest of Erebor. But Gandalf's account of how he came to arrange the expedition to Erebor and said, bilbo with the Dwarves and what I did on my summer vacation. Exactly.

[Sara Brown]

I love that as a subtitle. But the most recent version, Christopher tells us, is version C. And that's, of course, what we read through last week. And Christopher says it's more economical and tightly constructed. It's very, very like what we do. Economical and tightly constructed.

[James Tauber]

Very.

[Alan Sisto]

Which is why this episode's gonna be a little longer. Because this is not the equivalent economical and tightly constructed.

[Sara Brown]

Not at all.

[Alan Sisto]

Today it's B that we're going to take a much closer look at, not just through Christopher's notes and extracts from that earlier version, but from the whole version as provided in another source. But we'll get to that in a moment.

[Sara Brown]

Okay, so first, finishing our discussion of Christopher Tolkien's introduction here, he points out the strong similarity between the beginning of the typescripts B with the story as included in Appendix A3. It's the section talking about Thorin becoming the heir of Durin, but an heir without hope, and how he and his people had a good life in the Blue Mountains, but the embers in the heart of Thorin grew hot again.

[Alan Sisto]

In fact, that text is so similar in B that we're going to blow right by it as we move to the elements in the story that are connected more to the quest of Erebor that we looked at last week. But before we do, I want to look at Christopher's last line here. How the letter in the introduction that he references, and I would suggest the common connection between the existing appendix A3 makes it clear to him that Tolkien wrote this to be incorporated into the story of Durin's folk in the appendix. That's important. He wanted this in there.

[Sara Brown]

Yeah. And this letter is mentioned in the introduction to Unfinished Tales, but it's also, of course, in the letters volume, and it's number 160, written to Rainer Unwin in 1955 as Tolkien was working hard on the material for the appendices and the part that Christopher Tolkien quotes in the introduction reads, I now wish that no appendices had been promised, for I think their appearance in truncated and compressed form will satisfy nobody, certainly not me, clearly, from the appalling mass of letters I receive. Not those people who like that kind of thing, astonishingly many, while those who enjoy the book as a heroic romance only and find unexplained vistas part of the literary effect, will neglect the appendages tendencies very properly. I am not now at all sure that the tendency to treat the whole thing as a kind of vast game is really good. Certainly not for me, who find that kind of thing only too fatally attractive. It is, I suppose, a tribute to the curious effect that story has when based on very elaborate and detailed workings of geography, chronology and language, that so many should clamour for sheer information or law. But the demand such people make would again require a book at least the size of volume one. And I would be there for that.

[James Tauber]

I would.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah, absolutely. I am for sure one of those people for whom the truncated and compressed form is, you know, barely satisfying.

[Sara Brown]

Yes. I mean, it's lovely to have. Please. Thank you. I'm so glad we have it, do have it. But if there'd been a possibility of.

[Alan Sisto]

More, would I ever turn down more? I mean, like Tolkien, that kind of thing is only too fatally attractive. This is the stuff that I really love digging in, getting those background stories, getting that lore. And yet always, and this is something I've noticed, there's always still those unexplained vistas. There's always some other hill that we still don't know about. You know, the things that. That even he never got around to exploring. Not to mention the things that he would try to solve but were just too complicated, like the origin of orcs or what to do about the spherical earth and all of this stuff, you know, the cosmos questions. But that's the story for another day.

[Sara Brown]

Oh, yes, a very long story for definitely another day.

[Alan Sisto]

Long story. But, yeah, I mean, what do we do? I love that he says, look, if I really built this appendix, the way I wanted to have would be a fourth volume the size of the Fellowship of the Ring.

[Sara Brown]

Oh, glory, glory.

[James Tauber]

Can you.

[Alan Sisto]

I'm just imagining the indigestion that his publisher was experiencing when he reads that. Like, I'm not doing that. Like, that is not going to happen, sir.

[Sara Brown]

No, I mean, at this point, they don't even know that they're going to be able to sell the book as it is.

[Alan Sisto]

I know. I mean, they were so concerned about the cost of publishing and the risk of losing their shirts that Tolkien had to agree. Had to agree. Thankfully, he did agree to a deal where instead of being paid royalties right away, he would forego royalties until the cost of printing were covered, but then he would receive 50%, which was a lot more than he would have received. Yeah, clearly that worked out for him.

[Sara Brown]

Terrible, terrible deal.

[Alan Sisto]

Great deal for the tax man, though, because.

[Sara Brown]

Yeah. Much to Tolkien's continual complaints.

[Alan Sisto]

Oh, my goodness. Yes. Anyway, before we move on, I want to talk about the extra source that we're going to be using to look at that text. Be Sean and I really relied heavily on the Annotated Hobbit from Douglas A. Anderson back in Season two when we covered the Hobbit. And in the second edition of that text, we get a little bonus.

[Sara Brown]

Yes, we do. Anderson writes in the preface to the second edition that in the 14 years since the first edition was compiled, many volumes of previously unpublished writings by Tolkien have appeared. Additionally, the amount of secondary material on Tolkien has increased at a staggering rate.

[Alan Sisto]

That staggering rate hasn't slowed down either. New Anderson's first edition of the Annotated Hobbit was published In September of 1988, actually in the US beating the UK edition the following year. Some of that secondary material and previously unpublished writings would have been found in Christopher Tolkien's volumes of the History of Middle Earth, because, after all, at the time of publication of that first edition, only the first six volumes through the Return of the Shadow had been published. So half of the History of Middle Earth was still to come.

[Sara Brown]

Yeah. So in 2002, Anderson published a second edition, and in it he points out that every part of the book has been revised or rewritten, but there's one entirely new edition. One item new to this book is the Quest of Erebor, Tolkien's retelling of the story of the Hobbit. Originally intended to be part of an appendix to the Lord of the Rings, but omitted for reasons of length. It was first published in a variant form in Unfinished Tales. And sure enough, in Appendix A, there's the entirety of this B text that Christopher Tolkien gives us extracts from here in the Unfinished Tales.

[Alan Sisto]

It's great. We get the entire thing. And Anderson also does a really good job of summarizing the textual history, combining the information that Christopher Tolkien gave us in Unfinished Tales with what he would later provide in the Peoples of Middle Earth. Anderson points out that the story first came about during Tolkien's work on Appendix A3 on Durin's Folk, and that the very earliest manuscript is neither A, B nor C from Unfinished Tales, but instead it's a manuscript that's now published in Peoples of Middle Earth.

[Sara Brown]

Right. And we quoted from that when discussing the Durin's Folk appendix and Thorin's actions after Thrying departed.

[James Tauber]

Right.

[Alan Sisto]

Now, Anderson points out that that earliest version was not known to Christopher Tolkien, who, when he put Unfinished Tales together, which is why he named the next version the rough and heavily edited document in his father's handwriting titled the History of Gandalf Stealings with Thrain and Thorin Oakenshield. It's why Christopher called that text A, even though it turns out there's kind of a text proto A, I guess, pre A.

[Sara Brown]

And he adds that C, which is the version we read and discussed last week, was possibly composed in an attempt to retain at least a compressed version of the story in the published volume, but in the end, it too was rejected for reasons of space.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah.

[Sara Brown]

And he then provides the full version of text B, expressing his thanks. I am especially grateful to Christopher Tolkien, says Anderson, for allowing it to appear here.

[Alan Sisto]

Now, of course, we can't and won't read the whole thing. We have neither the permission of Christopher Tolkien nor Douglas Andersen to do so, but we will read some bits and pieces and fit them into the bigger picture for you. Now, one thing that we had questions about last week, questions that need answering, was dating. Right. When were these documents written or typed?

[Sara Brown]

Yeah. Now, Christopher didn't discuss it at any length, and Anderson, too, acknowledges that it's hard, if not impossible, to date these texts with any precision. He says, on one of the two early notes mentioned above, these are the notes we'd read last week from People's. There is a note by Tolkien referring to actual page numbers of Fellowship. Now, that, of course, suggests the volume had been published, or at the very least, was in good page proofs.

[Alan Sisto]

Right. Now, that means the notes would have been written sometime after late July 1953, when the first galleys of Fellowship were sent to Tolkien. Much of the material in the appendices, though Anderson explains, already existed by April 11, 1953, when Tolkien wrote to Unwin expressing his hope that some of this would appear in the eventual third volume.

[Sara Brown]

Now, as we know, there were many letters along these lines, including the one we mentioned earlier, cited by Christopher Tolkien in the introduction for Unfinished Tales and written in 1955. And Tolkien delivered the rest of the appendices, including all of Appendix A, by April 12, 1950. 5.

[Alan Sisto]

So Anderson concludes, if we accept on the outside, September 29, 1953, when Tolkien received the page proofs for Fellowship as the earliest possible date for the composition of the earliest notes for the quest of Erebor, and April 12, 1955, when Tolkien had turned in the last of the materials for return as the latest possible date for Tolkien. Having abandoned the thought of using the quest of Erebor in the appendices, it follows that all of the versions must date from the time period between October 1953 and mid April 1955.

[Sara Brown]

Yep, makes sense. He thinks we can safely accept that Fellowship had actually been published, however, and suggests that the date range would then be late July 1954 to mid April 1955.

[Alan Sisto]

That's nice. It gives us less than a one year window in which he did this. That that fits. And I think he's probably right to say that we can safely accept that, you know, the page proofs would have been enough, I suppose. But if I'm him, I'm not sure that I'm going to reference a page in the, in the, the galley because those page numbers may change as the content is edited.

[Sara Brown]

Yep, indeed.

[Alan Sisto]

If I'm putting a note, I'm referencing something that happens in the book, I'm gonna maybe reference a quote rather than reference a page number. Only when it's final would I reference a page number and I'm Tolkien.

[Sara Brown]

Yeah, that makes sense.

[Alan Sisto]

It's at least as pedantic as I am.

[Sara Brown]

So Tolkien pedantic. Let me consider that for a moment.

[Alan Sisto]

A very short moment.

[Sara Brown]

What's really tickling me at the moment is the Lord of the Rings is finished. It's getting published. He's just writing some note things to go in appendices. Nope, he's still writing stories.

[Alan Sisto]

Stories. Exactly. And it's. Yeah, exactly that. It's not just like the tale of years, like here are some things historically that took place. He's writing a full narrative and we're going to get into that right now. And in fact, Sara, would you start us out?

[Sara Brown]

I will. Gandalf had not yet played any part in the fortunes of Durin's house. He had not had many dealings with Dwarves. The though he was a good friend to those of goodwill and liked well the exiles of Durin's folk who lived in the West. But on a time it chanced that he was passing through Eriador, going to the Shire, which he had not seen for some years, when he fell in with Thorin Oakenshield and they talked together. On the road and rested for the night at Bree. In the morning, Thorin said to Gandalf, I have much on my mind and they say you are wise and know more than most of what goes on in the world. Will you come home with me and hear me and give me your counsel? To this Gandalf agreed. And when they came to Thorin's hall he sat long with him and heard all the tale of his wrongs. From this meeting there followed many deeds and events of great moment indeed the finding of the One Ring and its coming to the Shire and the choosing of the Ring bearer. Many therefore have supposed that Gandalf foresaw all these things and chose his time for the meeting with such Thorin. Yet we believe that it was not so. For in his tale of the War of the Ring, Frodo, the ring bearer, left a record of Gandalf's words on this very point.

[James Tauber]

Indeed he did.

[Alan Sisto]

And by Frodo, we mean Tolkien. We skipped the first bit of the extract from Typescript B. But we already told you we would do that. And why. So we just move on to the new bit. The connections, or lack thereof, between Gandalf and the House of Durin.

[Sara Brown]

Yeah, and we learned that Gandalf hadn't had a lot of interaction with the Dwarves of Durin's house which are the only Dwarves in his part of the world. And. And we probably should talk about why.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah, I find that interesting.

[Sara Brown]

Yeah. I mean, nothing's given here but it seems interesting to me that a guy whose task is to help unite the Free peoples against Sauron ends up somewhat ignoring a major portion of those peoples. That's odd.

[Alan Sisto]

Indeed, it is weird. I mean, I was thinking for a moment, like what if each of the wizards had been given a race to coordinate with, right? If Gandalf had been sent to, say, help men and Hobbits, which would fit. Then you've got Radagast, maybe with the Elves and Saruman to work with the Dwarves because he's very crafty. But, you know, they weren't given those specific tasks.

[Sara Brown]

No, they weren't.

[Alan Sisto]

You know, they were all supposed to help all. And I do have to say that with Saruman keeping to himself for the most part I can't help wondering if it was a bit of a tactical error on Gandalf's part to not establish good relations with the Dwarves before this point in history. Nearly 2,000 years after his arrival he still doesn't have a lot of dealings with Durin's House.

[Sara Brown]

Yeah, I mean, Maybe he's been a bit Busy, but still, 2,000 years maybe.

[Alan Sisto]

That'S a long time.

[Sara Brown]

It's a fairly long time, yeah. But it is a good thing that Saruman didn't reach out to the Dwarves.

[James Tauber]

Oh, I know. Huh?

[Sara Brown]

Right. I mean, I can see how they'd have made powerful allies for his factories and forges. And even how they might have been bought into his arguments. I mean, this is the sort of thing that would attract them, isn't it?

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah, 100%.

[Sara Brown]

Constructing new technologies, all that kind of thing.

[Alan Sisto]

It's really terrible to think of what Saruman could have done had he sort of sensed that vacuum and stepped in and said, I'm going to utilize the Dwarves.

[Sara Brown]

Things might have been very, very different.

[Alan Sisto]

Very different indeed. But even though Gandalf hadn't worked with them a lot, the text at least tells us he was friendly towards good Dwarves and had a fondness for those exiles living in the Blue Mountains. That suggests at least, since the exiles living in the Blue Mountains are living there under Thorin's leadership, that he and Thorin knew each other. But there's a line coming up in a little bit that makes me a bit unsure.

[Sara Brown]

Yeah, Gandalf on his way to the Shire, as we've seen in the main version last week, falls in with Thorin, which I suppose is kind of better than being outpaced with by him on a jog. And they talk together for a while before spending the night at Bree.

[Alan Sisto]

I'm still seeing Gandalf like, I'm sorry, Thor, let me take off my airpod max. Airpod maxes, I can't hear you very well.

[Sara Brown]

No, he's canceling earphones in these rinky dinky little tighty whitey shorts that he's jogging along in.

[Alan Sisto]

No, I was thinking at least full on sweatpants. Now you got me seeing Gandalf in tighty whites. Yeah.

[Sara Brown]

No, no, he's surely gonna have to have a piece of elastic to hold that hat on.

[Alan Sisto]

He's got to. A little chin strap.

[Sara Brown]

Yeah. Oh, we should move on. Move on.

[Alan Sisto]

Move on. Because, yeah, visuals are bad.

[Sara Brown]

They aren't great. Thorin actually seems humble here, acknowledging Gandalf's storied W and asking him to come to his halls to not only hear his story, but to give me your counsel.

[Alan Sisto]

Exactly. But this line here is the one that makes me wonder if Thorin had actually ever met Gandalf. He speaks about Gandalf like he's only just meeting him. They say you are wise.

[Sara Brown]

They so others, not me Others not like me.

[Alan Sisto]

Like, I know you are wise. This is. They say so. I mean, okay, it could be that he's met him a few times, doesn't know him very well, and it's like, okay, you know, your reputation is of this. But to me it feels almost like this is their first meeting. I know I could be wrong. There's nothing that says one way or the other, but what do you think? I mean, he had the fondness for the exiles living there, but he really didn't have a lot of dealings with them. And then this line from Thorin makes it sound like he has no knowledge of who Gandalf is personally.

[Sara Brown]

Yeah, it certainly does sound like that. I mean, if Gandalf had spent any kind of time in the Blue Mountains like he does in the Shire, getting to know all the folks at the Shire. Yeah. Then it seems almost inconceivable that he wouldn't actually spend a bit of time with Thorin getting to know the person who is essentially the king of the dwarves of that time in that place. Yeah, it does seem a little bit strange with the. They say you're wise because you're right. It doesn't sound like Thorin has had many conversations, at least with Gandalf before.

[Alan Sisto]

I think you're right. You make a good point about how closely he got to know the people of the Shire. We'll see later that he knows the Shire well enough to know what families he should be looking for when it comes to picking somebody for this quest. Yes, I need a little bit of this, but a little bit of that. Like really, you know those bloodlines so well.

[Sara Brown]

Yeah.

[Alan Sisto]

You don't even know who Thorin is. That's pretty. It's pretty interesting. I mean, he knows who he is, but I don't think he's had conversations with him.

[Sara Brown]

It does seem a little remiss of both of them, actually does.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah.

[Sara Brown]

Anyway, Gandalf agrees and he journeys with Thorin and that's when we get the summary in the story of how that conversation led to all the things that wrap up the Third Age finding of the Ring, the choosing of the ring bearer, etc, etc, and of course, since.

[Alan Sisto]

That was all in Gandalf's purview, it's not really surprising that folks would believe that Gandalf would have foreseen all these, you know, events and that he might have in fact manipulated things to ensure that he met with Thorin at the right time. But the record provided by Frodo, which we'll talk about shortly, will Prove otherwise.

[Sara Brown]

Now, before we move on, we skip the line, this is what he Frodo wrote. Because a. The earliest manuscript known to Christopher Tolkien at the time of writing Unfinished Tales actually has that passage was omitted from the tale since it seemed long. But most of it we now set out here, certainly suggesting Tolkien was aware of the problems that the length of this tale might create in terms of actually getting it published. Published in the appendices. Even as far back as that manuscript.

[James Tauber]

Exactly.

[Alan Sisto]

I mean, it's such a telling thing that. That Tolkien was like, oh, no, no, we. We have this. We're setting it out now. But we'd omitted it from the tail because, like, here's this version that's not going to get in. Well, fine, then I'm going to write the longer version, which will never get in, but at least I'll have the story out there.

[Sara Brown]

I know, but I mean, this is so typical, isn't it? He's spending time on things that aren't going to get into the story when he should be focusing on getting that. It took him forever.

[Alan Sisto]

I know.

[Sara Brown]

From receiving the proofs to getting everything back to the publishers.

[Alan Sisto]

It's such an interesting read to go through the letters of that time period and to see just how much back and forth there really was. And I mean, I'm sure a lot of that's because it all had to be sent physically. You know, here's the manuscripts with my notes. It's not like they're working in Google Docs and the publisher can just, you know, have a zoom call and be like, well, let's talk through these changes together. It's. It's a very different time, but the amount of time that it took was pretty extensive.

[Sara Brown]

It was. It was. Now, as somebody who has been published himself and has gone over book proofs, can you imagine having the one and only copy that you've gone over and made the changes on and that goes in the post?

[James Tauber]

Yeah.

[Alan Sisto]

Seriously.

[Sara Brown]

Really?

[Alan Sisto]

No. Terrifying. Yeah. I had copy backup copy. Sean had backup copies. Yeah. It was always one of those things where the nerves were, what happens if this gets deleted or lost?

[Sara Brown]

Right. When I was working on my PhD, it's before the cloud was really a thing. You have no idea how many backup copies on various external devices I had of this thing.

[Alan Sisto]

And because it was before the cloud, you've got to have it on something portable enough to leave the house if it catches on fire. Have it on a floppy disk if it's that old, or have it on at least on an external drive.

[Sara Brown]

It's not quite floppy disk old. We're talking, we're talking 2012, 2013. Okay, yeah, so we had got past floppy disks, but I did have it on must have been half a dozen memory sticks.

[Alan Sisto]

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[James Tauber]

Know what I mean?

[Alan Sisto]

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[Quentin]

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[Alan Sisto]

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[Quentin]

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[Alan Sisto]

Now, soon we're going to get back to Minas Tirith right after the coronation. But before we do, we want to remind you there's a lot more talk going on at the Prancing Pony Podcast than just us.

[Sara Brown]

Indeed, because the Prancing Pony Podcast has an amazing listener community. They're always coming up with great questions and discussions across all our social media spaces. Check out our Common Room on Facebook, our dedicated subreddit, Twitter and more now.

[Alan Sisto]

On Facebook, just look for the Prancing Pony Podcast. You're going to follow the page to get news and episode drops, but join the group if you want to get involved in some great discussions.

[Sara Brown]

Yep, on Twitter, Instagram, Blue Sky, Twitch, TikTok, and YouTube. We're PrancingPonyPod. Or if you prefer Reddit, find us there at R prancingponypod.

[Alan Sisto]

And if you want daily Tolkien content, check out today's Tolkien times on the PPP YouTube channel and on all your favorite podcast apps. It's my short format Daily show with everything from Middle Earth Map Monday to Silmarillion Saturday. And then there's my new twice weekly streaming of all fun things Middle Earth on the PPP plays. Be sure to check both of them out on the YouTube channel for all the PPP productions at YouTube.com prancing pony.

[Sara Brown]

Pod all right, I think it is your turn to pick up where we were at.

[Alan Sisto]

All right then, so this is Frodo. After the crowning, we stayed in a fair house in Minas Tirith with Gandalf, and he was very merry, and though we asked him questions about all that came into our minds, his patience seemed as endless as his knowledge. I cannot now recall most of the things that he told us. Often we did not understand them, but I remembered this conversation very clearly. Gimli was there with us and he.

[James Tauber]

Said to Peregrine, there is a thing I must do one of these days. I must visit that Shire of yours. Not to see more Hobbits.

[Alan Sisto]

I doubt if I could learn anything.

[James Tauber]

About them that I do not know already. But no Dwarf of the House of Durin could fail to look with wonder on that land. Did not the recovery of the kingship under the Mountain and the fall of Smaug begin there? Not to mention the end of Barad Dur though both were strangely woven together. Strangely. Very strangely, he said, and paused.

[Alan Sisto]

Then, looking hard at Gandalf, he went.

[James Tauber]

But who wove the web? I do not think I have ever considered that before.

[Alan Sisto]

Did you plan all this then, Gandalf?

[James Tauber]

If not, why did you lead Thoron Oakenshield to such an unlikely door? To find the ring and bring it.

[Alan Sisto]

Far away into the west for hiding. And then to choose the ring bearer and to restore the mountain kingdom as a mere deed. By the way, was not that your design? Gandalf did not answer at once. He stood up and looked out of the window west seawards and the sun was then setting and a glow was in his face he stood so a long while silent. But at last he turned to Gimli.

[James Tauber]

And said, I do not know the answer, for I have changed since those days and I am no longer trammelled by the burden of Middle Earth as I was then in those days. I should have answered you with words like those I used to Frodo Only last year, in the spring. Only last year. But such measures are meaningless in that far distant time. I said to a small and frightened Hobbit, bilbo was meant to find the Ring, and not by its maker and you therefore were meant to bear it. And I might have added, and I was meant to guide you both to those points to do that I used in my waking mind only such means as were allowed to me doing what lay to my hand according to such reasons as I had. But what I knew in my heart or knew before I stepped on these grey shores, that is another matter, Oloran. I was in the West. That is forgotten. And only to those who are there shall I speak more openly.

[Alan Sisto]

Wow. Wow, that opens up so much, doesn't it?

[Sara Brown]

Dun, dun, dun. I know. That's one of the fabulous things about digging into these little extras. It really informs your understanding of the events of the Third Age.

[Alan Sisto]

Exactly. I mean, it really does. And the fact that this is sort of like. Well, it never got published until, you know, Unfinished Tales because Tolkien cut it to make sure it would fit in the appendix.

[James Tauber]

Like, ah.

[Alan Sisto]

I wanted that. That's why I wanted a volume as thick as Fellowship of the Ring.

[James Tauber]

I know, I know we couldn't do it.

[Sara Brown]

But we're just greedy for more.

[Alan Sisto]

We are. Always. Give me more.

[Sara Brown]

Now, once again, more on the timeline. Now we know it's after the crowning. We already knew they were all staying in a house of Gandalf. Mm, not sure we knew that. He was very merry though, so he's in a good frame of mind to listen to questions. Maybe he's had a little too much.

[Alan Sisto]

Of the old win yachts celebrating the. The wedding and the coronation. And of course, like I said earlier, this is Frodo writing. Of course, the we is still the same as it was last week. Mary, Pippin, Gimli and Frodo. Just as with the main text, he acknowledges that he can't recall most of the things that he told us. But wow, if that's the case, Gandalf has said a lot because this version has a ton of details that were left out of last week's version. Manuscript C or type C. And I'm.

[Sara Brown]

Still in awe of Frodo's memory, of course, writing all of this down.

[Alan Sisto]

Memory, Such detail.

[Sara Brown]

Yeah, but we start this time with Gimli, not Gandalf. And he expresses his desire to visit the Shire, not for the Hobbits, because he thinks he knows everything about them now.

[Alan Sisto]

Really? Yeah.

[Sara Brown]

Bless you.

[Alan Sisto]

You've known four Hobbits for a year.

[Sara Brown]

And those are four of the more unusual Hobbits, right? I'd say.

[Alan Sisto]

I would say. Have you met Farmer Cotton? Have you met Ted Sandyman? Have you met. You know. I don't know, Maggot, No.

[Sara Brown]

But what he really wants to go to the Shire for is because of its historical significance to Durin's folk, their restoration as a house began there in the Shire. The kingdom of Erebor, the Death of Smaug, etc.

[Alan Sisto]

Exactly. But also because of its place in Middle Earth history. Right. The end of Barad Dur too. Though that is what gives him pause as he realizes. Oh, wait a minute. These stories are a lot more closely entangled than I thought. Gandalf, who wove this web, right? Were you behind this all the time? Was the reestablishment of the Kingdom under the Mountain? Was helping Durin's house just a side effect or a bonus of what you were really up to?

[Sara Brown]

Gimli Finally Gets a Clue is the other alternative title for this bit.

[Alan Sisto]

Gimli Gets a Clue I love it. Yeah.

[Sara Brown]

But Gandalf is somewhat surprisingly quiet and thoughtful about this at first. For a long time, actually. He just stands and looks out the window and it's interesting that he looks out to the west as he's pondering what he's going to say.

[Alan Sisto]

It must be a little bit to the northwest or southwest though, really, because remember where Minas Tirith is? It's at the end, the west end of Mindalawan.

[Sara Brown]

Yeah. If he was going to look direct west, he'd have to literally lean out of that window and peer around the.

[Alan Sisto]

Cooler through the mountains. But, yeah, he's. I think, if I remember correctly, I think I read that it was on the north side, so it would be sort of at the. The back side of the circle and they'd be looking kind of northwest along the north side of the White Mountains, probably.

[Sara Brown]

Still a very nice Airbnb, though, for the area.

[Alan Sisto]

Gorgeous. Absolutely, yeah. Top rated. Five star.

[Sara Brown]

But when Gandalf finally answers, he doesn't provide an answer the way Gimli is looking for one, but it's a really good answer anyway.

[Alan Sisto]

It is.

[Sara Brown]

He honestly doesn't know.

[Alan Sisto]

No, he doesn't. It's funny because he really is a very different person. Like, he says he's changed since that time, after all. You know, he talks about, oh, last spring, like it was a long time ago, because so much has changed and he's right. But the quest of erebor was nearly 80 years ago now. So of course he's a very different wizard than he was then. He claims it's because he's not trammeled by the burden of Middle Earth. And I don't disagree. Obviously, that's what Gandalf says. So that's Gandalf's truth. But how much of his change is due to no longer being that steward of Middle Earth. Right. Having that burden. But also how much might be due to him being, as I call him, G 2.0. Right. Gandalf the White Return. He is different, literally. So I don't know.

[Sara Brown]

He is. But if we remember that in the chapter, the Last Debate, Gandalf talks about how he is a steward and has been a steward and, you know, it's still his burden at that time, but it won't be in the future. That'll be for other people to sort out.

[Alan Sisto]

Right. He talks about that, doesn't he?

[Sara Brown]

Yeah, he does, yes. Yeah.

[Alan Sisto]

Won't always be the case.

[Sara Brown]

So I'm not sure it's entirely to do with him being Gandalf the White because even as Gandalf the White, he still had the burden. Although he may have been dealing with that burden in a very different way. Because Gandalf is quite different to Gandalf 1.0 very. But he, at this point, he is very close to being able to shuck off that burden completely.

[Alan Sisto]

Which is exactly what he'll do. Right? I mean, shortly he's going to go home with the Hobbits and he'll leave them to clean up the Shire while he goes and has a chat with Tom.

[Sara Brown]

Yep, exactly. I mean, he is pretty much abrogating his responsibilities now. He's.

[Alan Sisto]

Or he's done with them.

[Sara Brown]

He's done.

[Alan Sisto]

He's not so much abrogating as so much as the job is done. I'm good now. It's finished.

[Sara Brown]

I'm retired.

[Alan Sisto]

Is done. I can retire. Yeah.

[Sara Brown]

Yep.

[Alan Sisto]

So he is aware enough of who he was, though, at the time, you know, previously to say that at that time he would have given Gimli an answer very similar to the one that he gave Frodo. The point being that there was a meaning behind all of this. Just as Bilbo was meant to find the Ring, Frodo was meant to bear it. And I love the addition that Gandalf was also meant to guide Bilbo and Frodo to those ends.

[Sara Brown]

Now that makes sense.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah.

[Sara Brown]

If one of them is meant and the other one is meant then surely the third one is also meant.

[Alan Sisto]

Exactly. There's a purpose here. There's a. A greater purpose and. And an even greater authority behind the scenes manipulating these things.

[Sara Brown]

Absolutely. Yep. Now, like we talked about last week if Gandalf was using anyone, he's also being used. Right. He was chosen to choose them.

[Alan Sisto]

Correct.

[Sara Brown]

Then he throws this tantalizingly small bit of light on the how he used only what he was allowed to do, but what he knew, either in his heart or in his past is another matter.

[Alan Sisto]

That just opens up so much like you want to know so much more and you don't get to.

[Sara Brown]

Yeah. Gandalf. I have questions. Sit down.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah. This whole idea of, you know, how much of his Maya nature had to be set aside to be in a body. All these things, what was that really like for him? Like, what did he experience? How much of that could he remember? And here there's a suggestion that he did have access to that information. He just wouldn't have been allowed to use it. Right. What he knew in his heart or in his past. So maybe it's not that he knew it, but in this life. He knew it in his past. And he's like, well, I once knew this thing. I don't know it now. But how do you know that you knew something if you don't know it?

[Sara Brown]

Okay, my brain hurts.

[Alan Sisto]

How are you aware of knowledge that she once had? If you no longer have the knowledge I know, how do you have present awareness of past knowledge? I don't. I'm just struggling with that. But.

[Sara Brown]

But you're not Istari, so you can't be expected.

[Alan Sisto]

That's a very good thing. So he will only speak openly to those in the west, where he was known as a. Lauren Christopher Tolkien points out, interestingly though, that in the earliest, well, not the earliest text, what he thought was the earliest text at the time, a Gandalf adds, or who may perhaps return thither with me. That would, of course, include both Frodo and, rather surprisingly, Gimli, but not Mary or Pippin. So he certainly can't talk about it at this point. It's very interesting.

[Sara Brown]

It is really interesting. So, in other words, that information cannot remain in Middle Earth. He can only talk about it once he is out of the bounds of Middle Earth because that information can never come back into Middle Earth.

[Alan Sisto]

Correct?

[Sara Brown]

It has to remain a mystery.

[James Tauber]

Yes.

[Alan Sisto]

And it's the fact that it's only with those who may return thither with me. He can tell Frodo once they're on the boat and they're heading out of the Grey Havens. Now he can answer the rest of that question.

[Sara Brown]

Indeed.

[Alan Sisto]

And now I want the rest of that answer anyway.

[Sara Brown]

So do I.

[Alan Sisto]

We're not going to get it. Would you continue with the next chunk?

[Sara Brown]

I will. Then I said, I understand you a little better now, Gandalf, than I did before. Though I suppose that whether meant or not, Bilbo might have refused to leave home. And so might I. You could not compel us. You were not even allowed to try. But I'm still curious to know why you did what you did, as you were then an old Grey man, as you seemed now, this next little bit. You can only find this in Anderson's work. Why you should want to know that I do not understand, said Gandalf. But I had, of course, simple reasons for what I did. And if I may say so, Hobbits were not, at first very important among them. My chief reason was that of a captain, a member of a council of war. When I met Thorin, I had long known that Sauron had risen again and I expected him to to declare Himself. Soon I knew that he was planning a great war and I surveyed all the lands in my mind. Now this is where he discussed the possible strategies like we discussed last week and concluded similarly that the north was a weak point. Right. Now we go back to the text that's provided in the Unfinished Tales. That is why to jump forward. I went off as soon as the expedition against Smaug was well started and persuaded the council to attack Dol Guldur first before he attacked Lorien. We did, and Sauron fled. But he was always ahead of us in his plans. I must confess that I thought he really had retreated again and that we might have another spell of watchful peace. But it did not last long. Sauron decided to take the next step. He returned at once to Mordor and in 10 years he declared himself. Then everything grew dark. And yet that was not his original plan and it was in the end, a mistake. Resistance still had somewhere where it could take counsel free from the Shadow. How could the ring bearer have escaped if there had been no Lorien or Rivendell? And those places might have fallen, I think, if Sauron had thrown all his power against them first and not spent more than half of it in the assault on Gondor. Well, there you have it. That was my chief reason. But it is one thing to see what needs doing and quite another to find the means. I was beginning to be seriously troubled about the situation in the north when I met Thorin Oakenshield one day in the middle of March 2941. I think I heard all his tale and I thought well, here is an enemy of Smaug at any rate, and one worthy of help. I must do what I can. I should have thought of Dwarves before.

[Alan Sisto]

Gee, you think you should have? Yes, I. I love how Frodo opens this section and I don't mean when he called Gandalf an old gray man. It's that Frodo now understands about the role of fate and he even sees that his own free will plays into it. Either he or Bilbo or both could have refused and Gandalf could not have forced them. Yes, so, so important. This is that whole fate free will dichotomy and how you can ask the question is it faders at free will? And the answer is yes. Yes, because it's so often both, isn't it?

[Sara Brown]

It is what it always comes down to is choice. Yes, people are always given the choice. Bilbo could have refused the adventure. Frodo could have said nah, I'm not Taking this ring anywhere. But in the end, they both choose. And they choose for different reasons.

[Alan Sisto]

They do. And Frodo chooses twice. Right. Frodo chooses to leave the Shire with the ring thinking his journey is going to be relatively short. But then he chooses again at the Council of Elrond.

[Sara Brown]

He does. And that. That ability to choose and the way in which you make those choices that I think is inherent to Tolkien's world. You cannot force someone to go on something like this.

[Alan Sisto]

No. Something that will cost him his life.

[Sara Brown]

Right, exactly. So you have to give somebody the choice to do that. But then you can argue whether this is something that they were meant to do anyway.

[Alan Sisto]

You know, that actually brings it right back to the Council of Elrond because Elrond points out both the fate and free will aspects of it. Right. He says, I think that this task is appointed for you, Frodo, and that if you do not find a. A way, no one will. And then just moments later, he says that this is such a heavy burden, nobody could assign it to anybody. I do not lay it on you. But if you take it freely, I will say that your choice is right.

[Sara Brown]

No pressure.

[Alan Sisto]

You know, no pressure.

[Sara Brown]

No one else can do it, but no pressure.

[Alan Sisto]

The task is appointed for you. It's your fate, but it also is your choice. It's fantastic. And Tolkien does such a good job of masterfully weaving that I think I still have questions about how that relates to Elves and the music and the sort of, you know, the way that's predetermined in a way. And yet Elves still have the agency to respond differently even though the circumstances may be predetermined. But yeah, it is just. It's fantastic stuff. I love this.

[Sara Brown]

It is. It is. Now back to this section. Frodo still wants to know and understand Gandalf's thoughts, thought process. Why did he do what he did? And just like with Dwarves not being at the top of his priority list, apparently neither were Hobbits.

[Alan Sisto]

No, no. Gandalf's first job was essentially that of a military leader, almost a general in a way. Preparing not so much to direct a fight against Sauron but to inspire, you know, where would he be needed to be first? Where would I have to go if I'm Gandalf to be the spearhead against Sauron? And that's when we get that Lorien and Rivendell discussion we had last week. But we get more. It's all connected to when Gandalf left Thorne & Co. Near the. The Eaves of Mirkwood.

[Sara Brown]

Yeah. And it's also when we see that really would have been a good idea for Sauron to attack those places first, as we were discussing last week.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah, that was a good question. We didn't have an answer for it, but here we get one.

[Sara Brown]

Yeah. I mean, how could anyone carrying the Ring hope to survive without those places of refuge and counsel? And the answer is, well, it wouldn't happen. No.

[Alan Sisto]

And. And that's the whole thing, if you. One of the themes that we see throughout the Lord of the Rings is this pattern of threat, escape, refuge. Threat, escape, refuge. And they're constantly finding these. These places of refuge from. Whether it's Crickhollow or Tom's Place, you know, in the Old Forest, or whether it's Bree, you know, there's always these little spots of refuge and of respite. And how would they possibly have gotten anywhere without Rivendell, where they could have the Council and decide what to do. And then Lorien, where after the fall of Gandalf.

[Sara Brown]

Yeah. They need somewhere to recover.

[Alan Sisto]

They need to recover. They need to kind of figure out what are they going to do, where they're going to go. And they need to be able to do that in safety. And they not only have a place that's safe, but they get counsel, they get input. Frodo has a chance to give Galadriel the Ring and be done with the.

[Sara Brown]

Quest and chooses again not to, although she rejects it, so.

[Alan Sisto]

She does. She does. And. Yeah. Oh, but there's just. There's no chance without those places.

[Sara Brown]

No. And it's noticeable that after the end of the Fellowship at the Ring for Frodo and Sam, these places of respite are very few and far between.

[James Tauber]

Yes. Oh, and they are.

[Alan Sisto]

They're gone all together after the breaking of the Fellowship.

[Sara Brown]

Just that one. One little moment in Italian Athenoon.

[Alan Sisto]

That is it.

[Sara Brown]

Yep.

[Alan Sisto]

Yep. Knowing why you want to do something, though, Gandalf discovers isn't the same as having the ability to get it done. And I think we all know that sort of.

[Sara Brown]

I hear you, Gandalf.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah. Gandalf is worried about this. Like, okay, time is getting short. I know what we got to do, but I don't know how we're going to do it until he meets Thorne and he realizes they could accomplish something.

[Sara Brown]

Yeah. And that means we end with Gandalf's face palm moment.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah.

[Sara Brown]

Why didn't I think of dwarves earlier? Seriously? Yeah. We. We both wanted the same thing, right?

[Alan Sisto]

These are one of the free peoples of Middle Earth. And it's your job to inspire them in the fight against Sauron. You're like dwarves. Whatever. I'll talk to him some other time.

[Sara Brown]

Yes, yes. Why would I talk to those who are checks? Notes. Warlike, strong, up for a fight. Nope. I'm gonna go hang out with Hobbits instead.

[Alan Sisto]

They are more fun. It has to be be said.

[Sara Brown]

Absolutely.

[Alan Sisto]

But I would rather hang.

[Sara Brown]

Choices are being made here, Gandal.

[Alan Sisto]

Choices are being made. I mean, I keep thinking of the line. I think it's in the history of Galadriel and Celeborn where we learned that Galadriel looked on the dwarves as like, you know these great soldiers because of how fit they would be to to fight the Orcs in the mountains. Yeah. I mean she knew. Yeah. Why didn't.

[Sara Brown]

Yeah. We're going to the Hobbits.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah.

[James Tauber]

Oh well.

[Alan Sisto]

Yep.

[Sara Brown]

Oh well. Okay. Well, let's learn a little bit more. Do you want to carry on the reading?

[Alan Sisto]

Speaking of the Hobbits.

[James Tauber]

And then there was the Shire folk. I began to have a warm place in my heart for them in the long winter which none of you can.

[Alan Sisto]

Remember, of course that's because it was in 2758 and 59. More than 250 years ago.

[Sara Brown]

Yep.

[James Tauber]

He continues they were very hard put to it then. One of the worst pinches they had been in. Dying of cold and starving in the dreadful dearth that followed. But that was the time to see their courage and their pity one for another. It was by their pity as much as by their tough uncomplaining courage that they survived. I wanted them still to survive. But I saw that the Westlands were in for another very bad time again. Sooner or later though, of quite a different sort. Pitiless war to come through that. I thought they would need something more than they now had. It is not easy to say what. Well, they would want to know a bit more, understand a bit clearer what it was all about and where they stood. They had begun to forget. Forget their own beginnings and legends. Forget what little they had known about the greatness of the world. It was not yet gone. But it was getting buried. The memory of the high and the perilous. But you cannot teach that sort of thing to a whole people. People quickly. There was not time. And anyway, you must begin at some point with some one person. I dare say he was chosen. And I was only chosen to choose him. But I picked out Bilbo.

[Alan Sisto]

Now that is just what I want to know, said Peregrine. Why did you do that?

[James Tauber]

How would you select anyone Hobbit for such a purpose, said Gandalf. I had not time to sort them all out. But I knew the Shire very well by that time, although when I met Thorin I had been away from more than 20 years on less pleasant business. So naturally, thinking over the Hobbits that I knew I said to myself, I want to dash with the toque, but not too much, Master Peregrine. And I want a good foundation of the stolider sorter of Baggins, perhaps. That pointed at once to Bilbo. And I had known him once very well, almost up to his coming of age, better than he knew me. I liked him then and now I found that he was unattached to jump on again. For of course I did not know all this until I went back to the Shire. I learned that he had never married. I thought that odd, though I guessed why it was. And the reason that I guessed was not the one that most of the Hobbits gave me that he had early been left very well off in his own master. No, I guessed that he wanted to remain unattached for some reason deep down which he did not understand himself or would not acknowledge, for it alarmed him. He wanted all the same to be free, to go when the chance came or he had made up his courage. I remember how he used to pester me with questions when he was a youngster about the Hobbits that had occasionally gone off. As they said in the Shire. There were at least two of his uncles on the Took side that had done so.

[Sara Brown]

Lots of stuff in there as well.

[Alan Sisto]

Lots of stuff. Lots. And it's just so beautifully personal and lovely about the Hobbits and Ganos relationships. Put them. Yeah.

[Sara Brown]

Yeah. I think it does go towards explaining why Gandalf felt such a connection with the Hobbits.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah, we get an actual explanation, don't we?

[Sara Brown]

Yeah. So as you say, we get to his love of the Hobbits of the Shire and where it started, which is the Long Winter. And of course no one remembers this because it's more than 250 years ago. The tale of years tells us of 2758. Rohan attacked from west and east and overrun Gondor attacked by fleets of the Corsairs. Helm of Rohan takes refuge in Helm's Deep. Wolf seizes Edoras. 2758 9. The long winter follows. Great suffering and loss of life in Eriador and Rohan. Gandalf comes to the aid of the Shire Folk.

[Alan Sisto]

Gandalf comes to the aid of the Shire folk. Rohan could have Used him. But he wasn't there. He was helping the Shire folk.

[James Tauber]

Right.

[Alan Sisto]

He can only be one place.

[Sara Brown]

He can't be everywhere.

[Alan Sisto]

Nope. And he saw their toughness. Right. Their hearty nature. But it showed not just his courage, but care for one another. I love that. There's something about that that's so very hobbity and also very Tolkienian. This isn't just that they're brave. This isn't just the. The circle of lights standing against the, you know, eventual defeat. There's a deep care for each other. And that care stirs something in Gandalf. And with the north in danger, he wants these people to survive. But he knew this is going to require a lot more than just their dowdy nature. They're tough to kill. Yeah.

[Sara Brown]

Indeed. Gandalf believed that what they needed was to know and understand more, including their place in things. And this is where we get that education we saw briefly mentioned last week.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah. Just dropped in there and be like, what do you mean? Educated? They need to be educated about what?

[Sara Brown]

Yeah. And he notes that after all, they'd begun to forget all of that. Their origins and the world outside the Shire. He's not wrong. We know how parochial the Hobbits are.

[Alan Sisto]

And that's the thing. And apparently they've become more so. And that's something that he sees as problematic. And it's not gone yet. Right. There's still some of it, but it's getting buried. And I love this phrase, the memory of the High and the Perilous. And that made me think of that moment in the Houses of Healing. So this is Aragorn. He comforts Mary about Theoden and Pippin. Says we Tooks and Brandy Box, we can't live long on the Heights. No, said Mary, I can't. Not yet, any rate. But at least Pippin, we can now see them and honor them. It is best to love first, which you are fitted to love. I suppose you must start somewhere and have some roots. And the soil of the Shire is deep still. There are things deeper and higher. And not a Gaffer Katana's garden, what he calls peace, but for them. Yeah. The memory of the High and the perilous.

[Sara Brown]

Oh, that's. That's a lovely resonance there, isn't it?

[Alan Sisto]

It really is. It's the. The. This text. The fact that we don't even have this text except in the appendix to a story in Unfinished Tales is kind.

[Sara Brown]

Of heartbreaking a little bit. But, hey, at least we have it. Got it.

[James Tauber]

Absolutely.

[Sara Brown]

Yeah. So back to this Education thing.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah.

[Sara Brown]

Gandalf knows he can't teach him all that at once. I mean, tell me about it. Being a teacher teacher myself. I'll say. Yeah, that's, that's quite true. There's not enough time. Instead, pick one person. So, yep, Bilbo was chosen but Gandalf was chosen to choose him. This is the important thing.

[Alan Sisto]

And now all I can hear is the Hobbits of the sire singing. We don't need no education. Oh man. So Pippin. Because of course it's Pippin just doesn't get it. Okay, wonderful person, sure.

[James Tauber]

But Bilbo?

[Alan Sisto]

Why Bilbo? And Gandalf comes back to that Tuke Baggins mix as being essential. Yeah. Some of the adventurousness, that curiosity. That's good, but not too much.

[James Tauber]

You fool of a Tuke.

[Alan Sisto]

But mixed with the reliable type a solid stolid Baggins it's the perfect mix, isn't it? It is, yeah. It turns out it really was.

[Sara Brown]

Yeah. It did help that Gandalf already made, knew and liked Bilbo. And it helped even more to find out that he was unattached. Not married, no children.

[Alan Sisto]

It is interesting. And you, you wonder like he thinks it's because Bilbo wants to be free to go on an adventure and yes, he does. But boy, is he hesitant to do so.

[Sara Brown]

Yes.

[Alan Sisto]

I, I, I don't know that that really was the reason.

[Sara Brown]

I kind of think the Hobbits might be right and the Hobbits think the other Hobbits in, in the show. I think it's because he's rich and enjoys the bachelor.

[Alan Sisto]

He runs his own life. Right.

[Sara Brown]

I mean, yeah, but Gandalf knows. Gandalf has a much better sense of what is going on here.

[Alan Sisto]

There's a clue in it earlier where he knew Bilbo better than Bilbo knew him. I tend to think in many ways Gandalf knew Bilbo better than Bilbo knew himself until he went on that adventure. Yes. Yeah. So, yeah, yeah.

[Sara Brown]

But I do think that in this case Gandalf is also referring to to the effect of the ring on Bilbo because you know, when the ring is there in your possession it becomes your main focus. How can you give any part of your focus to another person? There's no part of Bilbo that's free to fall in love because.

[Alan Sisto]

Well, not after, yeah, not after the events of the Hobbit, but even before the Hobbit, you know, his parents had died relatively young. He was well off. I can understand that. I Mean if you got the money and you can live on your own and you don't need all of that and you don't really want that. You want to run your own life and be free to have these little adventures. His adventures of course are different than going all the way to Erebor.

[James Tauber]

Right.

[Alan Sisto]

He's thinking I just want two or three days. I want to be able to pick up and go. And that freedom is important to Bilbo. He just doesn't want to use it for a months long adventure to Erebor where he might die.

[Sara Brown]

Yes.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah, that part. Struck by lightning. Struck by lightning. Shaking like a jelly on the floor. Yeah. He clearly wasn't thinking that. But even if Bilbo wasn't thinking consciously I want to be free to do these things, you know, these important things. I think we can talk again about external causes. You know this is whether Bilbo himself chose oh I'm going to remain single because I'm wealthy and I like my freedom. Iluvatar might have been involved in making sure that he was wealthy and had his freedom because you know his unattached status is very important. It's what enables him to go and then do this. And in a way I think his, his freedom and his lifestyle inspired Frodo because Frodo also was not attached so that when he needed to leave at the age of 50 he could.

[Sara Brown]

Yes.

[Alan Sisto]

It's really interesting.

[Sara Brown]

It is important. It is important that they are unattached and they don't have a family sitting at home waiting for them. Absolutely. 100.

[Alan Sisto]

I mean can you imagine Sam being married to Rosie and having two or three kids and then still going off with Frodo?

[Sara Brown]

No. It just wouldn't be a thing. He couldn't possibly do that.

[Alan Sisto]

No. He barely can get Sam to go with him to, to go to the Gray Havens because you know I'm gonna go off for a few weeks with Frodo. Like really? We've got a young one at home or two at that point I think. Yeah, yeah.

[Sara Brown]

So yeah, there's good things about the mix of the Toque and the Baggins in Bilbo that's for sure. But there's also things about that mix that make him who he is. The Tuke part is like yeah, freedom can do whatever I want. The Baggins part is like well yes you could. But here's the thing.

[Alan Sisto]

It's nice to stay home and read books.

[Sara Brown]

It is really nice to stay home with the pantry.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah. And the larder's really well filled.

[Sara Brown]

Yes, exactly. So you know, it does enable him to bite the bullet if you like, and run out of the door and do the thing that's the part of him that kicks him out of the door. But before that it's the the mix of the Took and the Baggins has all sorts of side effects.

[Alan Sisto]

It really does. And it's a lot of fun throughout that whole story. For more on that folks, definitely go back to all of season two. Sean and I had a good, really, really fun time talking about that Tuke Baggins divide throughout. But coming back to this story before we move on, there's this last little bit where in a note after this, Christopher explains about these mysterious two Tuke uncles. But of course if we took the time to look at appendix C we would find them ourselves listed in the family tree of Took of Great Smiles. Hildefons, the sixth child of the old Tuke, is said to have gone, quote, off on a journey and never returned, While Isengar, the 12th and last of the old Tuke's children is said to have gone to sea in his youth. So those are the adventurous Tukes. In the meantime, it is time for you to take our next reading. And I gotta tell you, I love this. This is the one where we learn that it was Thorin's own behavior that led Gandalf to be like, oh, I've got an idea. This is good.

[Sara Brown]

But I am getting my tale out of order. Let us go back to my meeting with Thorin. He invited me to go home with him, so I did and we actually passed through the Shire, though Thorin would not stop long enough for that to be useful. Indeed. I think it was annoyance with his haughty disregard of the Hobbits that first put into my head the idea of entangling him with them. As far as he was concerned, they were just food growers who happened to want work the fields on either side of the dwarves ancestral road to the mountains. Now the rest of this reading is again found only in the story that Anderson provides. Well, I heard his long tale. Some of it I knew before, though the way of Thror's death and the disappearance of Thrain were then only known to the Dwarves. If you do not know about them, you must get Gimli to tell you the story some other time. I was sorry in my heart for Thorin, but I could see little hope of helping him. He was involved, as I saw only too well in the net of Sauron's designs. A dark strategy beyond his powers and beyond his grasp. Yet he sat there, still talking in a large way, wondering if his cousin dying could furnish 2000s, and if the men of that region would be likely to help, or King Thranduil and so on, as if he was a king planning a campaign. At last. I stopped him. I will think about all this, I said. I have the hint of a plan in my mind, but there is a piece missing that I want to find if I can. I must go now. I have some business of my own to attend to. But don't be too hopeful. My plan is very different to any of yours, and you may not like it at all. I will consider it when you return, said Thorin. Do not be long. My heart burns me.

[Alan Sisto]

All right, so while Christopher provides us with a bit about Gandalf literally being inspired to involve the Hobbits precisely because of Thorin's haughty disorder, absolutely love that it takes the rest of this version, provided only in the Annotated Hobbit, to flesh out more of what we read last week about Thorin acting as if he were already King. Thorin II I will say I think the odds of King Thranduil helping him are pretty slim. Don't you?

[Sara Brown]

Yes. Yes.

[Alan Sisto]

I love that.

[Sara Brown]

Slim to absolute zero.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah, yeah. Slim to let me help your enemies.

[Sara Brown]

Yeah, yeah. There's optimism. And then there's that. Also, Thorin can't say Gandalf didn't warn him. My plan is very different and you might not like it. But hey, since you're never ever going to get 2000 troops from Dyne or any help from men or Elves, you should take what you can get.

[Alan Sisto]

I also, and I didn't put this in the notes, but I really thought it was interesting that Ganiff was able to observe and very clearly. Right. I saw only too well that Thorin is already in the net of Sauron's designs. He's already manipulated. Yeah.

[Sara Brown]

Like, and yet, despite that, Gandalf knows he's going to have to use Thorin.

[Alan Sisto]

Right? I have to sort of break him out of this. And in spite of the fact that he's already deep in this sort of greed mindset being used by Sauron, you know, not directly. It's not like Thor is like taking notes and being, oh, you know, Sauron has reached out to me and asked me to do this. But he's definitely being used and being sort of manipulated. And the fact that Gandalf sees this is new here to this part of the text. But I also thought it was interesting that he didn't have Gandalf repeat what we'd already have read about Thror and Thryne, right? Tolkien's not just saving us from the redundancy, he's giving Frodo a chance to go and get the story from Gimli. And I really like that. He's like, you wanted the story about the Dwarven history. Talk to a Dwarf. And I really, Again, this is almost like Gandalf saying, I've already given Bilbo an education. Here's another tutor, right? Here's somebody that you can go and talk to. Yeah.

[Sara Brown]

Yes, it's the third age version of Google is your friend.

[Quentin]

This episode is brought to you by State Farm. Knowing you could be saving money for the things you really want is a great feeling. Talk to a State Farm agent today to learn how you can choose to bundle and save with the personal price plan. Like a good neighbor, State Farm is there. Prices are based on rating plans that vary by state. Coverage options are selected by the customer, availability, amount of discounts and savings and eligibility vary by state. This episode is brought to you by Amazon Prime. From streaming to shopping, prime helps you get more out of your passions. So whether you're a fan of true crime or prefer a nail biting novel from time to time with services like Prime Video, Amazon Music, and fast free delivery, prime makes it easy to get more out of whatever you're into or getting into. Visit Amazon.comprime to learn more.

[Alan Sisto]

Folks, if you're enjoying the PPP, please consider supporting the show by joining the Fellowship of the Podcast. That's what gives me the time and resources to work on making the show the the best that it can be. It's the only way I can make this a full time job. So when you join, you become part of an amazing discord community that includes live episode recordings and hangouts every month. You also get episode postscripts. You can get ad free episodes, free merch and more.

[Sara Brown]

You can also become part of our Questions After Nightfall episodes or even join us as a guest in the North Wing. So Please go to patreon.com prancingponypod to show your support and join the Fellowship of the Podcast.

[Alan Sisto]

And you can also help us out by giving us a rating and review on Apple Podcasts and a rating on Spotify. And please recommend us to your friends.

[Sara Brown]

Yeah, please do. Right, I think it's your turn to read again Alan.

[James Tauber]

I think it is this first I.

[Alan Sisto]

Answered your own ideas are those of.

[James Tauber]

A king Thorin Oakenshield, but your kingdom Is gone. If it is to be restored, which I doubt, it must be from small beginnings, far away here. I wonder if you fully realize the strength of a great dragon. But that is not all. There is a shadow growing fast in the world far more terrible. They will help one another.

[Alan Sisto]

And they certainly would have done so.

[James Tauber]

If I had not attacked Dol Guldur. At the same time, open war would be quite useless. And anyway, it is impossible for you to arrange it. You will have to try something simpler and yet bolder. Indeed, something desperate. You are both vague and disquieting, said Thorin. Speak more plainly. Well, for one thing, I said, you will have to go on this quest yourself. And you will have to go secretly. No messengers, heralds or challenges for you, Thorin. Oak and shield. At most you can take with you a few kinsmen or faithful followers. But you will need something more. Something unexpected. Name it said Thorin. One moment, I said. You hope to deal with a dragon. And he is not only very great, but he is now also old and very cunning. From the beginning of your adventure, you must allow for this. His memory and his sense of smell. Naturally, said Thorin. Dwarves have had more dealings with dragons than most. You are not instructing the ignorant. Very good, I answered. But your own plans did not seem to me to consider this point. My plan is one of stealth. Stealth? Smaug does not lie in his costly bed without dreams. Thorodok and shield. He dreams of Dwarves. You may be sure that he explores his hall day by day, night by night until he is sure that no faintest air of a dwarf is near. Before he goes to his sleep. His half sleep prick eared for the sound of dwarf feet. You make your stel sound as difficult and hopeless as any open attack, said Balak. Impossibly difficult. Yes, it is difficult, I answered. But not impossibly difficult, or I would not waste my time here. I would say absurdly difficult. So I am going to suggest an absurd solution to the problem. Take a Hobbit with you. Smaug has probably never heard of Hobbits, and he has certainly never smelt them. What cried Glowen, one of those simpletons down in the Shire. What use on earth or under it could he possibly be? Let him smell as he may. He would never dare to come within.

[Alan Sisto]

Smelling distance of the nakedest dragonet new from the shell.

[James Tauber]

Now, now, I said. That is quite unfair. You do not know much about the Shire folk glowing. I suppose you think them simple because they are generous and do not haggle. And Think them timid because you never sell them any weapons. You are mistaken. Anyway, there is one that I have my eye on as a companion for you, Thorin. He is neat handed and clever, though shrewd and far from rash. And I think he has courage. Great courage, I guess, according to the way of his people. They are, you might say, brave at a pinch.

[Alan Sisto]

You have to put these hobbits in.

[James Tauber]

A tight place before you find out what is in them. The test cannot be made. Thorin answered. As far as I have observed, they do all that they can to avoid tight places.

[Sara Brown]

Snotty.

[Alan Sisto]

Not wrong though.

[Sara Brown]

Well, no, no, not wrong, but.

[Alan Sisto]

Oh, his attitude, the condescension of the dwarves here is just thick.

[Sara Brown]

Oh, how he says to Gandalf, you are not instructing the ignorant.

[Alan Sisto]

Oh, I know, he's so hottie.

[Sara Brown]

I know, I know, I know. Goodness, what a slappable face he probably has. Anyway, enough of Sara's inherent violence and more of King Thorin ii. And a reminder for from Gandalf that this isn't going to happen this way.

[Alan Sisto]

No, it's not.

[Sara Brown]

No. And not only may you be underestimating the dragon, you're completely ignoring the growing shadow and the likelihood that the two will help each other. Although I do wonder just how much Thorin is bothered about that.

[Alan Sisto]

That's the thing, he's very myopic in the sense that it's. If it doesn't impact the dwarves, it doesn't matter to him. Yes, and right now the shadow is not directly impacting the dwarves, but he's making the mistake of allowing the shadow to grow and not thinking that, you.

[James Tauber]

Know, we need to face this together.

[Sara Brown]

But yeah, indeed.

[Alan Sisto]

So Gandalf explains like open war is not the solution.

[James Tauber]

Right?

[Alan Sisto]

Unlike his situation. I'm thinking with Theoden when it's like, look, open war is coming whether you want it or not.

[James Tauber]

Here.

[Alan Sisto]

Open war is not your solution. You need to think outside the box. And you know, I love the way he does this. He's such a consummate salesman this entire time Gandalf doesn't speak more plainly right away. Despite Thorin's request, he works to get the dwarves into invested in the solution long before he drops the bomb about Bilbo.

[Sara Brown]

He's so good at this the way he does it as well. He says not only do you need to go secretly, you need to remember about Smaug's sense of smell. And in short, your plan must be one of stealth. So yeah, as you say, he's selling all of the Things that they must think about.

[Alan Sisto]

Building the need first. Yeah.

[Sara Brown]

Yes. Which is absolutely the prime tenet of advertising, isn't it?

[Alan Sisto]

It sure is. So note that Christopher Tolkien observes about this point in the text that there was a line in the manuscript A that he thinks might have actually been unintentionally left out of Typescript B, which is what we're reading from that line. Read also a scent that cannot be placed. At least not by Smaug, the enemy of dwarves.

[Sara Brown]

Right.

[Alan Sisto]

I almost included that in there, but I couldn't. Like, I can't just modify the text myself. That's not my. I don't get to do that.

[Sara Brown]

No, but still, it's. It's an interesting line to have left out.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah.

[Sara Brown]

Because it's actually a very important bit of extra information there. But like any good salesman Gandalf has identified a problem knowing that he has the solution.

[Alan Sisto]

That's right.

[Sara Brown]

Right now, Balin thinks it's impossible but Gandalf has another idea. Takes a breath. Take a Hobbit with you.

[Alan Sisto]

Take a what now? And that's the reason I really wanted to include this in the discussion, this passage. Gloin's reaction, it's only the tip of the iceberg, is we're going to get even worse comments from Thorin and Balin later. But, oh, my, yes, there was.

[Sara Brown]

The reaction to this is. Yeah, probably Gandalf was expecting this kind of reaction, though.

[Alan Sisto]

Smug, haughty, condescending, prideful.

[Sara Brown]

Exactly. And Gandalf does try to set him right. He says, you think they're simple because they don't try to bargain with you. You think they're weak because they don't buy weapons.

[Alan Sisto]

That is so interesting, isn't it? I really like that. I like what that says about the Hobbits. I don't like what it says about the Dwarves.

[Sara Brown]

No.

[Alan Sisto]

But, yeah, I mean, look, the Hobbit, that's just not in there. That's not the way they work as a people. They're not going to haggle. That's not part of their culture. They. They're generous. Right. What's wrong with that? There's nothing wrong with that. They have the resources to buy your stuff then they're going to buy your stuff. They're not going to drive a hard bargain because that's not who they are. And they don't buy weapons because they're not a fierce people.

[Sara Brown]

Right. But of course, the dwarfs see that as a weakness.

[Alan Sisto]

Yes.

[Sara Brown]

Rather than a strength.

[Alan Sisto]

They're not a fierce people. That doesn't mean they can't fight it doesn't mean they have that courage. Right, yeah. We find out they very well can. And we already know of course that any animal within bow shot needs to be, you know, on the lookout if a hobbit bends over to pick up a stone run, because they will hit you with it. You know, they're good.

[Sara Brown]

Yes.

[Alan Sisto]

So he then tells the Dwarves, look, I have more than just take any hobbit. Random Hobbit, that would be a bad idea. I have a particular one in mind. And he describes him in, shall we say, rather generous terms.

[Sara Brown]

He's picking him up, that's for sure.

[Alan Sisto]

He really is. But I love it because he doesn't realize he's setting up Thorin for the that great punchline, you know, you have to put these hobbits in a tight place before you find out what's in them. Thorin gets that great slam in. I love it. As far as hives observed, they do all they can to avoid tight places. We can't make that test. That's an unprovable point there, Gandalf. I love it.

[Sara Brown]

It's some excellent snark, I must admit.

[Alan Sisto]

It really is. I mean Thorin does give as good as he gets here, but he's not going to get the best of Gandalf. Let me have you continue on with. We're skipping a few lines because they're similar to what we've read before, but go ahead and pick up after that.

[Sara Brown]

Okay? This is not advice. It is foolery. I failed to see what any hobbit, good or bad, could do that would repay me for a day's keep, even if he could be persuaded to start fail to see. You would fail to hear it more likely. I answered. Hobbits move without effort more quietly than any dwarf in the world could manage, though his life depended on it. They are, I suppose, the most soft footed of all mortal kinds. You do not seem to have observed that at any rate, Thorin Oakenshield, as you tramped through the Shire making a noise, I may say that the inhabitants could hear a mile away. When I said that you would need stealth, I meant it. Professional stealth. Professional stealth. Cried Balin, taking up my words rather differently than I had meant them. Do you mean a trained treasure seeker? Can they still be found? I hesitated. This was a new turn and I was not sure how to take it. I think so, I said at last. For a reward they will go in where you dare not, or at any rate cannot, and get what you desire. Thorin's eyes glistened as the memories of lost treasures moved in his mind. But a paid thief, you mean, he said scornfully. That might be considered if the reward was not too high. But what has all this to do with one of those villagers? They drink out of clay and they cannot tell a gem from a bead of glass. I wish you would not always speak so confidently without knowledge, I said sharply. These villagers have lived in the shire some 1400 years and they have learned many things in the time they had dealings with the Elves and with the Dwarves. A thousand years before Smaug came to Erebor. And none of them are wealthy as your forefathers reckoned it. But you will find some of their dwellings have fairer things in them than you can boast here, Thorin. The Hobbit that I have in mind has ornaments of gold and eats with silver tools and drinks wine out of Shapely crystal. Ah, I see your drift at last, said Balin. He is a thief, then that is why you recommend him? At that, I fear I lost my temper and my caution. This Dwarvish conceit, that no one can have or make anything of value save themselves and that all fine things in other hands must have been got if not stolen from the Dwarves at some time was more than I could stand at that moment. A thief? I said, laughing. Why, yes, A professional thief, of course. How else would a Hobbit come by a silver spoon? I will put the thief's mark on his door. And then you will find it. Then, being angry, I got up and I said with a warmth that surprised myself, you must look for that door, Thorin Oakenshield. I am serious. And suddenly I felt that I was indeed in hot earnest. This queer notion of mine was not a joke. It was right. It was desperately important that it should be carried out. The Dwarves must bend their stiff necks.

[Alan Sisto]

Man, that reading was good. Thank you. That was. That was a lot.

[Sara Brown]

I enjoyed that.

[Alan Sisto]

So in the bit that we skipped, Gandalf turns Thorin's insult about tight places. Turns it around into a point about the Hobbits being sensible. But how the Hobbit that he's thinking about would in his heart be willing to have an adventure.

[Sara Brown]

Yeah. No, Thorin's angry. And that's where we pick up with him refusing to see the value a Hobbit might have. And this gives Gandalf a beautiful opportunity to talk about Hobbit stealth. Fail to hear more like. And he even goes so far as to say professional stealth.

[Alan Sisto]

Well, that leads To a misunderstanding by Balin who assumes that he means a treasure hunter. Sort of like a short Indiana Jones, maybe.

[Sara Brown]

Oh, I'm just. Yeah, I'm just getting a visual now.

[Alan Sisto]

Bilbo wearing a fedora.

[Sara Brown]

Yeah, exactly. And carrying a whip.

[Alan Sisto]

A very small whip.

[Sara Brown]

A very, very small whip.

[Alan Sisto]

Gandalf is no dummy. Instead of saying, oh, no, no, that's not what I meant at all.

[James Tauber]

Ballad he plays to it like, yes, absolutely, that's correct.

[Alan Sisto]

And he continues to talk Bilbo up again, without merit, one might add.

[Sara Brown]

Yeah, but that just makes him a paid thief in Thorin's mind. Something he can't imagine a Hobbit being because they're so primitive. They drink out of clay and can't distinguish gems from glass.

[James Tauber]

Oh, my goodness.

[Alan Sisto]

I. You know, Gandalf's next line is one of my favorites. I'm sad that it got buried in this text. I wish Tolkien had given it to Gandalf. And it has to have been Gandalf. He's the only one who would say this in some other context in the published works. I'm going to personally have to use this line more often. I wish you would not always speak so confidently without knowledge.

[Sara Brown]

The experience of women on social media on a daily basis.

[Alan Sisto]

That's a fair point. That is a fair point. Yes. I wish you would not always speak so confidently without knowledge. Like, Thorin, don't talk about what you don't know, man.

[Sara Brown]

Yep. He reminds them that this is an old country, 1400 years old now. And they've gained a lot of knowledge over the centuries and they've dealt with Elves and Dwarves for a long time. And no, they're not rich like Dwarven kings. Well, let's just point out the Thorin's not that rich at the moment.

[Alan Sisto]

No, exactly. He's working with iron because he has no gold.

[Sara Brown]

Yeah, exactly. But they do live comfortably. Bilbo in particular.

[Alan Sisto]

Very much. Bilbo in particular. Balin, the apparent king of misunderstanding thinks he catches Gandalf's drift. Wink, wink, nudge, nudge. Oh, he's a thief then, eh, Ballin? Come on, man.

[Sara Brown]

Oh, boy. And that gets us to one of my favorite temperamental explosions from Gandalf. And it's a really telling critique of Dwarves in general.

[Alan Sisto]

Yes.

[Sara Brown]

Yeah. I mean, the fact that Gandalf says this Dwarvish conceit, which suggests it's something that they're known to believe.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah. That it's a common thing among Dwarves. And really, if we're looking at it, it is disturbingly. Racist. Really. The Dwarves believe that nobody can have or make anything valuable except for Dwarves. Like we are the only people that make anything good. So if anybody has anything nice they must have either bought it from the Dwarves or stole it from the Dwarves. That is nasty stuff.

[Sara Brown]

It really is actually. So arrogant.

[James Tauber]

Is.

[Alan Sisto]

Is condescending. It's. It's just this superiority.

[Sara Brown]

I know. And Feanor wants a word for a start.

[James Tauber]

Thank you.

[Alan Sisto]

Feanor definitely wants a word. Have you heard of the Silmarils, my friend? Yeah. It is just nasty stuff that the Dwarves think this and.

[Sara Brown]

Yeah. They're not presenting themselves as, you know, a people that we want to root for.

[Alan Sisto]

No, not at all. Not at all. I mean this is really, really. There's shades of some of the stuff you talked about in the episode where you dug deep into the history of Middle Earth to talk about the origin of the Dwarves. There's little shades of that still. Little remnants of that nature. And it's. It's really unpleasant here. So Gandalf just goes off that is it.

[James Tauber]

Fine.

[Alan Sisto]

Yep. Yep.

[James Tauber]

You're right.

[Alan Sisto]

I'm going to put the thief's mark on the door, you blithering idiot. Yeah.

[Sara Brown]

Yes. But what I do wonder is this is a bit like when a very British person uses extreme sarcasm against a. Let's just say an American person. An average one. Right. And I know it's a stereotype, but it's a stereotype for a reason. I don't think that the Dwarves understand that Gandalf is being sarcastic here.

[Alan Sisto]

No, they don't. They absolutely don't. They are missing the point altogether.

[Sara Brown]

Totally.

[Alan Sisto]

Balin is the king of misunderstanding and Thorne is the king of missing the point. Yeah.

[Sara Brown]

Oh, couple of doofuses.

[Alan Sisto]

Quite.

[Sara Brown]

But finally we get this last warning. And interestingly, not only is this a moment where he pushes Thorin over the edge, he pushes himself over the edge.

[Alan Sisto]

I thought this was interesting.

[Sara Brown]

Yeah. He says this queer notion was not a joke. It was. Right.

[James Tauber]

Yes.

[Alan Sisto]

It's almost like the more he pursues this as the answer to his problem, the more he's getting the sense that this is the solution to his problem. It's almost like you're getting warmer. You're getting warmer. You're hot, you know.

[Sara Brown]

Okay. Nice and toasty now.

[Alan Sisto]

Exactly. He's sensing something externally, perhaps internally. Either way, that's telling him you are on the right path here.

[Sara Brown]

Yes.

[Alan Sisto]

Knows this is important. This has to happen.

[Sara Brown]

Yeah. We know that Gandalf does have foresight.

[Alan Sisto]

Oh, yeah. Yeah.

[Sara Brown]

Although it has its limitations because as we know, he's had to leave some of his Maya capabilities behind.

[Alan Sisto]

Correct.

[Sara Brown]

Came into Middle Earth. But he does have certain elements of foresight and I think that the more he talks about this plan, the more that sort of built in foresight is going. Yep. Yes. Huh?

[James Tauber]

Yep.

[Sara Brown]

This is the right way to go.

[Alan Sisto]

Yep. Exactly. Just getting confirmation every step of the way.

[Sara Brown]

Indeed. But we want to hear more. Will you read us some more?

[Alan Sisto]

We do, I will.

[James Tauber]

There is one other thing I went on. You must make all your plans and preparations beforehand. Get everything ready. Once persuaded, he must have no time for second thoughts. You must go straight from the Shire east on your quest.

[Alan Sisto]

He sounds a very strange creature, this.

[James Tauber]

Thief of yours, said a young dwarf called Fili, Thorin's nephew, as I afterwards learned. What's his name, the one that he uses. Hobbits use their real names, I said. The only one that he has is Bilbo Baggins. What a name, said filly and laughed. He thinks it very respectable, I said. And it fits well enough, for he is a middle aged bachelor and getting a bit flabby and fat. Food is perhaps at present his main interest. He keeps a very good larder, I am told, and maybe more than one. At least you will be well entertained. That is enough, said Thorin. If I had not given my word I would not come now. I am in no mood to be made a fool of, for I am serious also deadly serious, and my heart is hot within me. I took no notice of this. Look now, Thorin, I said. April is passing and spring is here. Make everything ready as soon as you can. I have some business to do, but I shall be back in a week. When I return, if all is in order, I will ride on ahead to prepare the ground. Then we will all visit him together on the following day. And with that I took my leave, not wishing to give Thorin more chance of second thoughts than Bilbo was to have.

[Alan Sisto]

Gandalf. I love it when a plan comes.

[Sara Brown]

Together as he strides off into the sunset with a large cigar. Champs.

[Alan Sisto]

Seriously?

[Sara Brown]

Yeah. Now we skip the part that made it through to version C and the text that we looked at last week about Gandalf telling them him that if he does this he will succeed. If he doesn't, he will fail. Is it foresight or is he crazed?

[Alan Sisto]

I need that on a shirt.

[Sara Brown]

Yes.

[Alan Sisto]

Is it foresight or am I merely crazed?

[Sara Brown]

Yeah, yeah. Actually I think that would be an excellent shirt to do that.

[Alan Sisto]

There's also a mention from Gandalf about Bilbo Trying to back out. I mean, he doesn't. He actually literally says Bilbo might try to change his mind. Thorin needs to be patient. Right? He's building himself an excuse based on how he fears Bilbo might react. And he's right to do this to kind of warn Thorin. You're gonna have to really push him because this is. He may be adventurous, but this is a little outside of his comfort zone, let's be honest.

[Sara Brown]

Well, when your comfort zone is your cozy hobbit hole with its pantries, then yes, it's definitely outside multiple larders. Yes, yes. But Thorin needing to be patient. Ooh. Not that you're asking a lot there, Gandalf.

[Alan Sisto]

No.

[Sara Brown]

Now picking up on where we read to though. Gandalf gives another important piece of advice. Be ready to go immediately.

[James Tauber]

Yes.

[Sara Brown]

No second thoughts.

[Alan Sisto]

Nope. No time. Don't give him time to change his mind. You know, none of this will be back in a week. And be ready to go because you will not find him.

[James Tauber]

He will be gone.

[Alan Sisto]

Yes, he will be on one of his little jaunts to find the elves and he'll just conveniently not be home for a while. We do get a brief aside about his name along with a reminder that Dwarves don't use their real names before. A description that I have to admit feels a bit personal. Middle aged, getting a bit flabby. Food is a main interest. I don't.

[Sara Brown]

Oh, did you feel a bit seen there?

[Alan Sisto]

Ola feels seen. Yeah. Yeah, that was. That's a movie mood.

[Sara Brown]

Thorin grows even angrier before Gandalf just simply ignores him and moves a lot of the time.

[Alan Sisto]

I took no notice of that.

[Sara Brown]

I took no notice of that. Get ready. I'll be back in a week and we'll go meet Bilbo. So he's just putting Thorin on a timeline so that Thorin also has to.

[Alan Sisto]

This is what's going to happen. We're moving forward. This is what we're doing. And then he leaves. Not letting Thorin get in another word. Right. Second thoughts and arguments are for another time. I don't want to give him a chance any more than we're going to give Bilbo a chance. And then we're going to move into our last reading. But before we do, we need to say that we have skipped a big chunk here. Mostly because it's stuff we already know. Though it does explain that Gandalf was shaken by what he saw in Bilbo when he visited him on the morning before the Dwarves arrival. The whole good morning. Well, how do you mean, good morning? That whole moment, he was a little shaken by that.

[James Tauber]

Yeah.

[Sara Brown]

Yeah, because he was expecting Bilbo to be a certain way and Bilbo was kind of not that certain way.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah. Oh, adventures. Nasty things. Makes people late for dinner. Why would I want to do that?

[Sara Brown]

Yeah, but this was nothing compared to how he behaved the following evening.

[Alan Sisto]

Struck by lightning. Struck by lightning.

[Sara Brown]

We then get the same comments from version C about curbing your pride and greed and Gandalf's promise of friendship if he treats Bilbo well. Good luck.

[James Tauber]

Exactly.

[Alan Sisto]

And that's when Gandalf's story ends. And then our reading actually picks up after the end of his story. So, Sara, take us home, will you?

[Sara Brown]

I will do that. It still sounds absurd. Gimli said, even now that all has turned out more than well. I knew Thorin, of course, and I wish I had been there. But I was away at the time of your first visit to us and I was not allowed to go on the quest. Too young, they said. Though at 62, I thought myself fit for anything. Well, I am glad to have heard the full tale. If it is full. I do not really suppose that even now you are telling us all you know. Of course not, said Gandalf. No, said Merry. What about that map and key, for instance? You never said anything about them to Thorin when you had heard his tale, though you must have had them for a hundred years. Nearly 91, to be exact, said Gandalf. It was 10 years after Thryne left his people that I found him. And he had then been in the pits for five years at least. I do not know how he endured so long. Nor how he had kept these things hidden through all his torments. I think that the dark power had desired nothing from him except the ring only. And when he had taken that, he troubled no further, but just flung the broken prisoner into the pits to rave until he died. A small oversight, but it proved fatal. Small oversights often do.

[James Tauber]

I love that last line.

[Sara Brown]

I do, too.

[Alan Sisto]

Oh, man. So good. The text then concludes the way that it did in C. Like you may have read through that, but the text actually continues, but it finishes just like it did last week with Gandalf's, you know, poor Thorin. And then the concluding line about a chance meeting, as we say in Middle Earth.

[Sara Brown]

Yep, and we get some really interesting information about Gimli's being rejected for the quest. Now, he was in fact nine years older at the time of the quest of Erebor than Thorin Oakenshield was at the Battle of Nanduhirrion.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah, you'd think that would justify him going along. But he was also 20 years younger than Fili and 15 years younger than the youngest dwarf of the Quest for Erebor. That would be keely. So there is that. You know, like they seem to rely on the more experienced folks even feeling keely. Often told, you know, how young they are and how maybe foolish they are. They're still like 80s. Yes. So not young.

[Sara Brown]

It must feel nice, though, don't you think, Alan? To be told that at 61. You'd think that, you know, I'd be allowed to go on these.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah. That I'm too young at 61.

[Sara Brown]

Yeah.

[Alan Sisto]

Please, somebody tell me that in four years, please. Too young to go on an adventure.

[Sara Brown]

I promise I will do that.

[Alan Sisto]

Thank you.

[Sara Brown]

You're most welcome.

[Alan Sisto]

We also get Gandalf readily admitting that he's still not telling them everything. I may have laughed out loud as you read that. You know, he's like, oh, I don't really suppose even now you're telling us all you know. Oh, of course not.

[James Tauber]

Of course.

[Alan Sisto]

That's so Gandalf. I absolutely love that. But I have to wonder, what is he not telling? Because we've learned a lot about this story. I don't know, do we speculate on that? Maybe Save that for the P5. We'll banter that around in the postscript for this because we're combining all the episodes. We'll just kind of come up with some ideas of what he might have.

[James Tauber]

Known that he didn't say.

[Sara Brown]

Yeah, yeah, that sounds like fun. So we also get a bit more light shed on the fate of poor Thrain.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah, yeah. Thrawn into the pits and just allowed to rave until he died.

[Sara Brown]

Pits, pits, pits. And the powerful reminder that Sauron's small oversights prove fatal. Oh, I love that. If only he had searched Thrain before he was thrown into the pit and found the key and the map. The key in the map could not have been handed over to Thorin. The quest for Erebor would not really have taken place. Smaug would still have been left there. I mean, yes, we would have.

[Alan Sisto]

No queen of Gondor because all of Eriador would have been ravaged. Right. Dragonfire, savage swords and. Yeah, it's for want of a nail.

[Sara Brown]

The shoe was lost. For want of the shoe, the horse was lost.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah, yeah. And the kingdom follows. And that's exactly what happens here with Sauron and And, you know, he continues to make these small oversights, you know, that prove fatal. I'm thinking of assuming that when Pippin looks in the Palantir that he's the ring bearer and making the move to go and try to retrieve him. There's so many things. And of course, the assumption all along, not even really a small oversight, just a complete blind spot. Nobody was ever going to try to destroy the ring. Whoever's got the ring is going to try to use it against.

[Sara Brown]

Oh, that is a huge assumption, isn't it?

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah. And it's. It's not really a small oversight, but I love how his poor decisions. I'm thinking also of then, after Aragorn makes himself known in the Palantir, Sauron moves too soon. If he had just waited a little while to build up his forces a little bit more there's no chance that Gondor has. Minas Tirith would have fallen. There's just so many things that you're like, oh, yes.

[Sara Brown]

But it comes down to another Tolkienian idea that in the end, evil almost defeats itself.

[Alan Sisto]

Yes.

[Sara Brown]

Evil will eat itself.

[Alan Sisto]

Yes, it will. It is. Evil is foolish. Evil is often very foolish. And, you know, Simon's the same way, just in a much more mean and petty sort of way. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Sara Brown]

Indeed.

[Alan Sisto]

Good stuff. A small oversight, but it proved fatal. Small oversights often do. Good stuff. I do not know how he endured so long nor how he had kept the bag hidden through all his torments.

[Sara Brown]

Oh, Lord, I.

[Alan Sisto]

You know where I'm going. I do know you're going. Yes, The Dark power had desired nothing from him except a pint of beer only. And when he had taken that, he troubled no further but just flung the broken prisoner to the pits to rave until he died or escaped to build the inn of the Prancing Pony. Sarah, what does Barlow and have in his bag for us tonight?

[Sara Brown]

A huge bag full of judgment for your segue into the mailbag, that's for sure.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah, fair enough. No complaints.

[Sara Brown]

Okay, now this question actually does focus on. On Bilbo Baggins.

[James Tauber]

Oh, good.

[Sara Brown]

I know, right? So this question comes from Layli in France, and she says, the quest of Erebor reveals that Gandalf deliberately chose Bilbo.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah.

[Sara Brown]

Not despite his ordinary Hobbit nature, but because of it. Because Gandalf believed that Bilbo possessed qualities the dwarves lacked. The ability to think beyond golden revenge and to bring a fresh perspective that's not held together by ancient grudges. But what she's asking is, in what ways does this challenge, the traditional chosen one narrative in fantasy literature, does this reframing of Bilbo as selected specifically for his hobbitness rather than hidden, extraordinary qualities, offer a more compelling hero's journey than conventional fantasy protagonists who discover special powers or royal lineage?

[Alan Sisto]

I do like that I'm going to find slight. What's the word I'm looking for here? There's an assumption in the question, go back to the beginning, about his nature. Oh, because of his ordinary hobbit nature. I would actually say it is his slightly extraordinary hobbit nature because it's the tuk side that makes him, you know, suitable for this. A typical hobbit is going to be of the more solid, less adventurous type and would not have been willing to do this. I mean, you can't imagine a Cotton being willing to do this or, you know, Sandyman or any of the people in, you know, Sam's previous family. So there is a little bit extraordinary about Bilbo, but certainly not on the level of what she's saying here in terms of, like, the traditional, you know, superhero type. You know, the. The guy who finds out that he has some incredible abilities, whether it's magic or martial skills or that he's, like you said, the descendant of kings or something along those lines. It really does sort of upset that trope a little bit. And I would dare say that's intentional on Tolkien's part. One of the themes that we see throughout the Legendarium is the rise of the ignoble. Right. He wants to take the lower and elevate them. And we see that with the hobbits constantly. And I think this is a really early example of that in that Bilbo is elevated from his position as, quote, unquote, an ordinary hobbit when, of course, he isn't an ordinary hobbit. Even was it Holman who said, you know, you're not going to find a better hobbit than Bilbo? Gandalf has said similar things about Bilbo and Frodo. I think we read in the Lord of the Rings that both Gandalf and Bilbo agree that Frodo is the finest hobbit in the Shire. Yes, they are special, but they're still Hobbits, which makes them very ordinary. They're just special, ordinary people.

[Sara Brown]

Yes.

[Alan Sisto]

So, yeah, I like that question a lot because it definitely has a difference from that traditional literary trope. What do you think?

[Sara Brown]

I like it because of that, too.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah.

[Sara Brown]

Going back to what you said there about Frodo and Bilbo might be special hobbits but being Hobbits, they are ordinary as well. And that fundamental ordinariness makes them the kinds of characters that I find it easier to identify with and to therefore be emotionally connected to.

[Alan Sisto]

Correct.

[Sara Brown]

The kinds of fantasy protagonists who suddenly discover that they have multiple magical abilities and, you know, and, oh, suddenly I found out that I'm Princess X or something like that. I mean, yeah, okay, but that's not what's going to happen to an ordinary person. But the idea that an ordinary, very regular kind of person can actually be extraordinary.

[James Tauber]

Yes.

[Sara Brown]

Brave, determined. All of the things that both Bilbo and Frodo need to be so that they can actually fulfill the job that they are sent out to do.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah.

[Sara Brown]

I think that gives ordinary folks like me a little bit more hope that actually ordinary folks can be extraordinary.

[Alan Sisto]

That's a very good point. You know, it's the. The small hands that move things when. When the wise can't, you know.

[Sara Brown]

Yes.

[Alan Sisto]

The ordinary, the average. And I think there's something really powerful about that for the reader. It's one of the reasons that we love the Hobbit so much.

[Sara Brown]

I agree.

[Alan Sisto]

It's why after the Hobbit it was clear the audience wanted more Hobbits. It's one of those challenges that made the Silmarillion a little rough because where are the Hobbits? People love them because unlike so many of these other heroic characters I can relate to them. I can't relate to Aragorn. I love him, I admire him. He's amazing. But I can't possibly identify with him.

[Sara Brown]

No.

[Alan Sisto]

Descended from a Maya, you know, I mean.

[Sara Brown]

Yeah. I mean, come on.

[James Tauber]

Yeah.

[Sara Brown]

But at least Aragorn is not a conventional fantasy protagonist who discovers royal lineage. He knows birth. Yes.

[Alan Sisto]

And that's a very, very different thing from his 20s. I think it was right, that Aragorn was revealed, you know, that Elrond comes.

[James Tauber]

To him and says, by the way.

[Sara Brown]

By the way, no pressure, but here's.

[Alan Sisto]

The shards of a broken sword that are totally useless. You two, now. And I'm withholding the scepter. Oh, and you have your eyes on my daughter. Stop.

[Sara Brown]

I am watching you. Yeah, yeah. There are multiple characters throughout the legendarium that we can follow their story and want something for them whether it's absolute defeat or absolute victory. Yeah, but we don't. We don't get carried along with them in the same way that we do with the Hobbits. And you were saying about after the Hobbit was published the desire was for more Hobbits.

[Alan Sisto]

Right.

[Sara Brown]

Because I don't think Tolkien really meant the reader to identify with the Dwarves.

[Alan Sisto]

No, no, I don't think so.

[Sara Brown]

So who are we going to identify with? We're going to identify with Bilbo.

[Alan Sisto]

It's why the title of his story is the Hobbit, not the Dwarves. The Adventure of the Dwarves and this Other Guy.

[Sara Brown]

Yeah, exactly.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah. It's why it's not the Quest of Erebor. I mean, that's. For two episodes we would talk about the Quest of Erebor. That would have been a great title for the book, except that wasn't the point that Tolkien was trying to make. He was trying to get us to see the world through the eyes of the Hobbit.

[Sara Brown]

Yes. Who is, you know, frightened and would like to go home now, please.

[Alan Sisto]

Many, many times he wants to go home.

[Sara Brown]

Many times.

[Alan Sisto]

Yes. Not for the last time. He wished he was at home eating some bacon or something like that. Right. I mean.

[Sara Brown]

Right.

[Alan Sisto]

I don't remember where that came in, but I'm like, I hear you, man.

[Sara Brown]

Yeah. And he's faced, on more than one occasion by terrifying circumstances. And you've got two choices then you lie down under it or you grit your teeth and get on with it. And he chooses each time to grit his teeth and get on with it.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah.

[Sara Brown]

And he is, in fact, extraordinary because of it. It's those little moments of heroism that are done by people who you wouldn't necessarily expect to be heroic.

[Alan Sisto]

That's a really good way of putting it. I mean, it's. I was thinking it's an ordinary person who proves to be extraordinary as opposed to an extraordinary person who the author brings down to our level from time to time. Yes, right.

[Sara Brown]

That was a totally different, you know.

[Alan Sisto]

Instead of a hero, sort of condescending to be normal, this is a normal person aspiring to be heroic. And it does make a difference. Yeah.

[Sara Brown]

Yes, good.

[Alan Sisto]

Good question. Good question. Yeah.

[Sara Brown]

And what a lovely place to leave our discussion of Dwarves.

[Alan Sisto]

Indeed. Well, folks, that does wrap it up for another episode of the Prancing Pony podcast. And for my time this season with the incredible Dr. Sara Brown, if we're all very lucky and continue to be kind to her, perhaps we convince her to return next season for Eldarion and Arendus.

[Sara Brown]

I don't think you're going to have to twist my arm too much.

[Alan Sisto]

Wild horses couldn't keep you away.

[Sara Brown]

Wild horses, etc. I mean, thank you so much for bringing me on for this season. I have really loved the opportunity to do such a deep dive into the Dwarves. It's been great pulling all those pieces together.

[Alan Sisto]

Uh huh. That was a lot of fun. After getting to spend time with Aragorn and Arwen, I just felt like that was a natural fit after the great time we had talking about Faramir and Eowyn last season, so.

[Sara Brown]

Oh yeah, definitely.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah.

[Sara Brown]

Yes. And I think that it actually helps to understand the place of Arwen in the story.

[James Tauber]

It does.

[Sara Brown]

Once you dig into the tale of Aragorn and Arwen. Because it is so very easy. If all you're reading is the Lord of the Rings and you don't get to the appendices. I do know there are people out there who. Who don't read the appendices.

[Alan Sisto]

Tolkien knew it himself, as we talked about in that letter.

[Sara Brown]

Indeed, yes. If you don't, then it's really easy to dismiss Arwen as just being this woman who waits behind and maybe sew some banners in her spare time, you know, but she is way, way more than that. And I do think that at the end she is someone to be pitied.

[Alan Sisto]

Yes, very much so.

[Sara Brown]

Yeah.

[Alan Sisto]

Sorrow at the end of her life is, is deep and it's, yeah, fantastic. I'm so glad we spent time on that. And I think it's going to be interesting to go from Faramir and Eowyn to Aragorn and Arwen to next season, Aldarian and Arrendus.

[Sara Brown]

It's almost like you're getting me to comment on all of these different marriages.

[Alan Sisto]

This is interesting.

[Sara Brown]

Yeah. We're going from a fated marriage through a great solid marriage. And now to why divorce should have been a thing in Middle Earth.

[Alan Sisto]

Should have been a thing. Why? Maybe if your engagement is more than 50 years, you ought to reconsider.

[Sara Brown]

Yes, it's time to ditch him, babe, and move on.

[Alan Sisto]

If he liked it, he would have put a ring on it.

[Sara Brown]

Oh, he absolutely would. And if you think we're not going to work that into next season, you are totally mistaken.

[James Tauber]

Indeed you are.

[Sara Brown]

That has got to be a title for one of the episodes.

[Alan Sisto]

It does have to be. There's so many times where I'm reading that story. It's like, dude, come on, man.

[Sara Brown]

I know.

[James Tauber]

Commit already.

[Alan Sisto]

All right, speaking of committing, folks, please be sure to come back next week when I am joined by the other third of the Rings of Power wrap up Triumvirate. James Tauber, as he and I get into the remaining appendices to the Lord of the Rings. Timelines, calendars, languages, Here we come.

[Sara Brown]

Oh, a right couple of nerds.

[Alan Sisto]

That's right. All the pen stuff.

[Sara Brown]

Oh, that's going to be absolutely fantastic.

[Alan Sisto]

It'd be perfect.

[Sara Brown]

Now, Alan and I want to thank the members of Team PPP Editor Jordan Reynolds Barleyman, Becca Davis, Social media manager Casey Hilsey, Event and Patreon community coordinator Katie McKenna, graphic artist Megan Collins, and website guru Phil Dean. Thank you so much, everybody.

[James Tauber]

Indeed.

[Alan Sisto]

And folks, please take a minute to check out the Prancingpony podcast dot com. That's where you'll find our show notes, outtakes, Prancing Pony ponderings, and our online storefront where you can get PPP merch featuring all that amazing episode artwork Megan's been doing for the last few years.

[Sara Brown]

Now. You'll also want to visit our library page. The Prancing Pony Podcast is, after all, a podcast about the books. So if you're interested in a book we've mentioned on the show, you'll find a link for it in our library. And we do get a small amount of compensation when you make the purchase, so we thank you for that.

[James Tauber]

Indeed we do.

[Alan Sisto]

And we also want to thank our patrons at the Caerdance contribution distribution tier. I'll start with Demay in Alaska, Chad in Texas, Lance in New Jersey, Joseph in Michigan, Kathy from North Carolina, Carlos in California, Brian in the uk, Jerry from Washington, Joe in Washington, Irwin from the Netherlands, Ben in Minnesota, Anthony in Texas, Zaksu in Illinois, Sarah in New Jersey, Joshua in Massachusetts, Lucy in Texas, Keith in Alabama, Erica in Texas and Vivian in California.

[Sara Brown]

And, and there's also James in Massachusetts, Ann in Kentucky, Sean in New Jersey, Mason in California, Maureen from Massachusetts, Olivia in London, Robert in Arizona, Nick in Wisconsin, Lewis in South Carolina, Thomas in Germany, Craig in California, Bailey in Texas, Kevin in Massachusetts, Julie in Washington, Bruce in California, Joe in Maryland, Nathan in Arizona and Kevin in Pennsylvania. Thank you you all so very much for your support indeed.

[Alan Sisto]

Thank you.

[Sara Brown]

Now make sure you don't miss any episodes of the Prancing Pony podcast. Subscribe now through Spotify, Apple Podcasts, Amazon Music, or your favorite podcast app.

[Alan Sisto]

Now, one last thing. As always, don't forget to send your thoughts, comments and most of all your small oversights, hopefully of the non fatal variety to Barliman at the prancingponypodcast.com now.

[Sara Brown]

If you want your voice literally heard, well, just send us an audio of your question. Visit podinbox.com prancingponypod and record your question for us. Please be sure to still email the question to Barleyman though.

[James Tauber]

Please do.

[Alan Sisto]

Now, even though Barliman has been a lot more reliable lately, there is still a lot of mail to sort through. We'll try to get to you just as soon as we are able. As always, though, this has been far too short a time to spend among such excellent and admirable listeners. But until next time, Uma Oheed.

[Sara Brown]

I'm still here, Howlvar. Farewell, folks.