375 – If You Don’t Know Me By Now

Summary

The Prancing Pony Podcast: Episode 375 – "If You Don’t Know Me By Now"

Release Date: June 8, 2025

Welcome to Episode 375 of The Prancing Pony Podcast, where hosts Alan Sisto and James Tauber delve deep into the intricacies of J.R.R. Tolkien's Middle-earth. This episode offers a comprehensive exploration of the Digital Tolkien Project and a focused discussion on the enigmatic Lore Master Pengaloth.

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1. Digital Tolkien Project: Pioneering Digital Scholarship

Alan Sisto opens the episode by celebrating the recent accolade won by the Digital Tolkien Project—the 2025 Tolkien Society Award for Best Online Content. He invites listeners to join James Tauber in exploring the project's mission and achievements.

James Tauber provides an in-depth overview of the project, emphasizing its goal to apply digital humanities tools to Tolkien's works. He explains how the project draws inspiration from established digital libraries like the Perseus Digital Library, aiming to create a comprehensive digital environment for Tolkien studies.

"What we're really trying to do at the Digital Tolkien Project is build resources, building really, I mean, really building on the foundation of work that's been done for these other texts, using similar sorts of approaches with linguistics and computers and so on to better understand Tolkien's texts and the world that Tolkien created."
— James Tauber [04:19]

Key Accomplishments:

• Citation System Development: Transitioning from page-based references to a logical citation framework (e.g., book, chapter, paragraph) to ensure consistency across various editions.

  "One of the first things that we did is develop a more logical citation system like you would be familiar with in the Bible with book, chapter, verse, and so on..."
  — James Tauber [06:53]

• Speaker Identification: Annotating dialogue to identify speakers accurately, which allows for nuanced linguistic analysis.

  "One of the things that we did back in 2023 was to go through all of the direct speech in the Hobbit, the Lord of the Rings and Silmarillion and identify who the speaker is."
  — James Tauber [11:18]

Current Progress and Future Goals:

James highlights ongoing projects, including:

• Paragraph-Level Annotations: Detailing character presence, locations, and temporal settings within each paragraph.

  "We're going through every single paragraph in Lord of the Rings and identifying the characters. And in fact, we're not just identifying the characters and the locations and the time, but also we're answering certain questions about the narrative."
  — James Tauber [14:18]

• Tolkien Glossary: Cataloging approximately 19,000 distinct words to facilitate advanced linguistic studies and visualizations.

  "The Tolkien glossary is trying to do is go through every single word that occurs and tagging them for their linguistic properties."
  — James Tauber [16:57]

James envisions the Digital Tolkien Project evolving into an interactive online reading environment, potentially collaborating with publishers to offer a rich, annotated experience akin to a digital Folio Society edition.

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2. Lore Master Pengaloth: Unveiling Forgotten Histories

Transitioning from digital scholarship, the podcast delves into the lore of Pengaloth, a pivotal yet underrepresented figure in Tolkien's legendarium.

Background:

Derived from the History of Middle-earth series, Pengaloth is portrayed as a Loremaster of Gondolin with profound contributions to Elvish linguistic traditions. Despite his significant role in preserving ancient knowledge, Pengaloth conspicuously disappears from later narratives like The Silmarillion and The Lord of the Rings.

"Yet in the second Age for the furtherance of his enquiries, and for a while to have dwelt among the dwarves of Kassarondo Khazad Dum... Pengalad is said to have remained in Middle Earth until far on into the Second Age."
— Alan Sisto [38:16]

Key Teachings of Pengaloth:

1. Language Evolution and Change:

   Pengaloth addresses the perplexing question of why Elvish languages, despite the immortality of the Elves, undergo significant changes over millennia.

   "Dafuina, within air all things change, even the valor... language has to change because the world changes."
   — James Tauber [46:23]

   Using analogies like the River Sirion and Manwë, Pengaloth illustrates that both space and time inherently drive linguistic evolution.

   "From the spring in the mountains to the mouths of the sea, all is Sirion... all that is he whom we call Manwë."
   — James Tauber [47:01]

2. Artisanship of Language:

   Elven linguistic practices are depicted as deliberate and artistic, contrasting with the more chaotic evolution of human languages.

   "The Eldar are skilled and eager in art, will readily make things new... They are artisans of the word, and so they love this idea of what new things they can do."
   — Alan Sisto [54:33]

   This craftsmanship ensures that language changes are systematic and harmonious, akin to natural linguistic phenomena like Grimm's Law and the Great Vowel Shift in real-world linguistics.

   "Pengalad... says that language as a system... it's exactly what Tolkien's talking about here."
   — James Tauber [65:13]

3. Living Speech vs. Lore:

   Pengaloth distinguishes between the 'living speech' used daily by the Elves and the preserved languages of lore, emphasizing that even immortal beings experience linguistic shifts.

   "The Koirea Quenya, the language of thought, grows and lives within, and each new stage overlies those that went before, as the acorn and the sapling are hidden in the tree."
   — James Tauber [69:59]

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3. The Decline of Pengaloth in Tolkien's Later Works

Despite his foundational role, Pengaloth's presence diminishes in Tolkien's later writings. Alan Sisto and James Tauber explore possible reasons for this narrative shift.

Evolution of the Frame Narrative:

Initially, Pengaloth serves as the primary historian within the Elvish tradition, but Tolkien restructured his mythology to emphasize the Mannish (human) perspective. This transition allowed for a more relatable and less rigidly "true" mythos, blending Elvish lore with human myth-making.

"The mythology must actually be a mannish affair. The High Eldar... must have known... what we have in the Silmarillion... are traditions... handed on by men in Numenor and later in Middle Earth."
— Alan Sisto [90:XX]

This shift likely sidelined Pengaloth to spotlight human contributions and the natural uncertainties of myth transmission, aligning with Tolkien's desire to present his works as a blend of history and legend.

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4. Conclusion: Preserving Forgotten Histories

The episode concludes with a reflection on Pengaloth's essential yet obscured role in Tolkien's universe. The hosts lament his absence from mainstream narratives, underscoring the importance of projects like the Digital Tolkien Project in preserving and illuminating such critical figures.

"Make history. That wraps it up for another episode of the Prancing Pony Podcast. Join us next week..."
— Alan Sisto [100:20]

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Notable Quotes

• "You can see why I love this essay so much as a lingo. It's a gorgeous analogy."
  — James Tauber [52:13]

• "The Eldar are artisans of the word, and so they love this idea of what new things they can do."
  — Alan Sisto [54:33]

• "The taxonomy of the Digital Tolkien Project can now address questions like... are words used differently in speech versus not within speech?"
  — James Tauber [10:00]

• "Language has to change because the world changes."
  — James Tauber [46:23]

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For Listeners Who Haven't Tuned In

Episode 375 offers a blend of digital scholarship and deep lore analysis, making it a must-listen for Tolkien enthusiasts and scholars alike. Whether you're interested in the mechanics of language development within Middle-earth or the behind-the-scenes evolution of Tolkien's narratives, this episode provides insightful perspectives and thought-provoking discussions.

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Stay connected with The Prancing Pony Podcast through their website, Discord, and social media channels for more in-depth analyses and community interactions.

Transcript

[Alan Sisto]

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[James Tauber]

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[Alan Sisto]

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[James Tauber]

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[Alan Sisto]

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[James Tauber]

Thankless job right up there with podcaster quite. Folks, pull up a bench in the common room and join us. I'm James Tauber, the Sage of the south and I'm here with the man of the west who once joined Rumal in a pub in Valinor, Alan Sisto.

[Alan Sisto]

He drank me under the table, James. I'm telling you, that guy. Rumail man. All right, folks, join us as I hand the reins of the show over to my co host, James, as he guides us through the story and works of the great Elven lore master, the Pengaloth.

[James Tauber]

No pressure, right?

[Alan Sisto]

None at all. None.

[James Tauber]

Folks, if you like this, it was all me. If you don't like it, Alan made me say it. I kid. Folks, no matter how you arrived, you're all welcome. Here in the common room at the Prancing Pony Podcast, we're reading and talking our way through Middle Earth with plenty of speculation and bad jokes along the way.

[Alan Sisto]

Definitely. Now, we do love our deep dives into the lore. We enjoy discussing our favorite themes, and in today's episode, we enjoy taking deep dives into some of the fun corners of Middle Earth.

[James Tauber]

And we do try to keep it light and fun, like a couple of friends chatting at the pub. And we're glad you've joined us, and.

[Alan Sisto]

I'm sure you'll be glad you joined as well. But before we get to tonight's chapter discussion, or I should say, it's not really a chapter that we're discussing, is it? Before we get to tonight's discussion about Pengaloth and the frame narrative and the histories and all of this stuff, it's time to catch up with James and the incredible work that he and his team have been doing over at the Digital Tolkien Project. Now, we're first off, folks, congratulations are in order. Now, I think we mentioned this in the mailbag last episode, but for those of you who didn't catch it or who are maybe joining us today for the first time, folks, Digital Tolkien project won the 2025 Tolkien Society Award for Best online Content. And it's well deserved. It's long been in the works. I think it was your fourth nomination, and it's something that should have happened a while ago. So, James, before we get into the details of the Digital Tolkien Project, for those who maybe aren't familiar, can you give us a brief overview of exactly what it is?

[James Tauber]

Absolutely. So, first of all, thank you for the congratulations.

[Alan Sisto]

Well deserved, sir.

[James Tauber]

Thank you. So, as to the origins, if you look at the how people engage with, say, biblical texts or things like the Iliad or the Odyssey, you see that for centuries there's been a wealth of material, commentaries, maps, glossaries, encyclopedias of the people and places, guides to the original languages and so on. And Tolkien has always been remarkable as a 20th century author in that a lot of that sort of material exists for his work. He's quite unusual in the extent to which there's sort of material about his, his world. But what we've seen over the last half century or so with the Bible or Homer is a wealth of digital tools, digital reading environments backed by databases of information. And that's actually what I work on in my day job, working at projects such as the Perseus Digital Library, making things like the texts of Homer available in their original languages with translations and commentaries and all sorts of resources to help better understand the text. And I started wondering back in 2018, what if those digital approaches that were being used for the Bible and Homer and other texts like that, what if they were also adopted within Tolkien studies? And it's really that question that led to the Digital Tolkien project. So what we're really trying to do at the Digital Tolkien Project is build resources, building really, I mean, really building on the foundation of work that's been done for these other texts, using similar sorts of approaches with linguistics and computers and so on to better understand Tolkien's texts and the world that Tolkien created.

[Alan Sisto]

Fascinating. I love that you're taking these long proven tools and methods that have been applied to, you know, genuine real world historical texts and you're using these to kind of shed light and, and bring all of the details up in, in Tolkien's work. Fantastic. I know that not all of our listeners will have been familiar with your project, but I know they're all going to benefit from it because scholars, researchers and other writers are going to have better data to work with as they write more about Tolkien's work. So whether you're going to a moot and listening to a paper, somebody has probably used the Digital Tolkien Project to help research that. So folks will benefit from it, even if you really don't quite know what it is. Where are you now on the project? Like what's the latest accomplishment and the next sort of near term goal or goals?

[James Tauber]

Yeah. So one of the first things that we did, and we've done for most of the, certainly the books published in Tolkien's lifetime is develop citation system, a logical citation system so that you can refer, refer to the texts not by page numbers which suffer from being restricted to a particular edition. Yeah, it's quite frustrating. If Christopher Tolkien mentions something in Lord of the Rings in the history of Middle Earth, he'll do it by a page number in the second edition. And if you don't own the second edition of Lord of the Rings, those page numbers are not necessarily particularly meaningful. So one of the things that we did is develop a more logical citation system like you would be familiar with in the Bible with. With book, chapter, verse, and so on, where it doesn't matter what page number something's on, you can refer to a particular verse in the Bible. The same is true for paragraphs in Hobbit, the Lord of the Rings, the Silmarillion.

[Alan Sisto]

So it's by paragraph, then. I mean, I'm sorry to interrupt, but I'm trying to. Because in a text like the Bible, the chapters and verses are enumerated. We don't have that in Tolkien, so.

[James Tauber]

Exactly. So one of the. One of the things that. That we did quite recently, there's a pair of sites that kind of help with this that we've built. One is Search Tolkien. And Search Tolkien lets you start typing in text that you might have in front of you and will tell you the citation number to use.

[Alan Sisto]

So it'll give you, like, book, chapter, and what paragraph number then.

[James Tauber]

Yes, exactly. And then there's a parallel site to that that we launched fairly recently called Site Talking, and that goes the other way around. What you do there is you give it a citation. So say somebody gives you a citation. LR4.0.4.57. In other words, the 57th paragraph in the fourth chapter of book four.

[Alan Sisto]

Okay.

[James Tauber]

And you're wondering, what is that paragraph? Now, obviously, we can't show the whole text.

[Alan Sisto]

That's what I was about to ask. But, yeah, you've already got that.

[James Tauber]

So what we do at Site Talking is actually just show you the first couple of words, or first. First three words and the last word of the paragraph, as well as the initial words of the five paragraphs before and the five paragraphs after.

[Alan Sisto]

Okay, so it puts it in context for it.

[James Tauber]

Yeah, exactly. But this is really just. This is entirely foundational, because once you have a citation system like that, that's what enables you to start attaching other information.

[Alan Sisto]

Right.

[James Tauber]

About the text. Because we can't redistribute the text. No, we need a way of redistributing data and information about the text that refers into the text. And. And so one of the things. One of the big accomplishments that we had in 2023 was going through the speech in the Hobbit, the Lord of the Rings, and the Silmarillion and identifying who the speaker is. So the first part of that is identifying that there is speech. And it goes. Okay, a little beyond simply looking at what's in quotation marks. Because one of the things you realize if you Start to look into the text. Things being in quotes doesn't necessarily mean they're direct speech. Tolkien will sometimes just put things in scare quotes or they're a foreign term or something like that. But there are also things that are direct speech that are not in quotation marks. For example, particularly in the Bilbo's party at the start of Lord of the.

[Alan Sisto]

Rings, where you get the italics.

[James Tauber]

You get italics. But of course, italics, Alex, doesn't always mean direct speech.

[Alan Sisto]

Definitely doesn't always mean speech.

[James Tauber]

So one of the first steps was to go through and identify what is actually the direct speech.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah.

[James Tauber]

And once you. I mean, once you do that alone, you can answer interesting questions like, are words used differently in within speech versus not within speech? One of the things that I've talked about in the past is when does Tolkien contract things like do not to don't? And does it happen more in speech when Sam's talking? Is the answer.

[Alan Sisto]

Right.

[James Tauber]

Well, so you bring up an interesting point, which is it's one thing to just know that it's done more in speech versus narrative, and in fact, it's never done in the Silmarillion at all in speech or narration.

[Alan Sisto]

There's a Commander Data joke in there somewhere. So Commander Data tells the Silmarillion, but.

[James Tauber]

Yeah, yes, exactly. It's used all the time in the Hobbit.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah.

[James Tauber]

The Lord of the Rings is. Is actually sort of 50, 50 within speeches to. As to whether it's contracted or not. And that, of course, raises the question, is that a function of who the speaker is? Yeah, but in order to answer those kinds of questions, you need to know who's speaking in each place. It's one thing to search for the word do not or the word don't, but that's not going to tell you who's actually doing the speaking.

[Alan Sisto]

No.

[James Tauber]

And so one of the things that we did back in 2023 was to go through all of the direct speech in the Hobbit, the Lord of the Rings and Silmarillion and identify who the speaker is.

[Alan Sisto]

Oh, that's a project.

[James Tauber]

And I'll say a little bit more about how that was done. But the result of that is now that we have that additional annotation and so we can look at how different words are used by different speakers. And just on that question of the do not versus don't, it's actually really fascinating because Tolkien was very careful, because he was so conscious of this, to give different characters a different way of speaking.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah.

[James Tauber]

And so elves never, ever contract do not to don't. Gondorians never ever contract. Do not to don't. The Rohirrim never contract. Do not to don't.

[Alan Sisto]

Huh.

[James Tauber]

Almost every Hobbit does.

[Alan Sisto]

Wow.

[James Tauber]

And in fact, most Hobbits do it all the time. They do not say do not. They always say don't. Sam, for example, always says don't. And so does Bilbo, in fact. Where it gets really interesting though is in those characters that mix them.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah.

[James Tauber]

And they do in various percentages. Frodo, Mary and Pippin tend to contract, but they don't always.

[Alan Sisto]

Right.

[James Tauber]

Gandalf and Aragorn tend not to, but sometimes they do. And I think one of the things we haven't done yet that, that I'd like to do is not only bring in who the speaker is but who they're talking to.

[Alan Sisto]

Ah. Because that context would.

[James Tauber]

Exactly. Exactly. Especially some. You imagine somebody like Gandalf especially, but even Aragorn that they're very conscious of who they're talking to and the manner in which.

[Alan Sisto]

The hypothesis is that perhaps Gandalf would contract more if he's talking to the Hobbits, less if he's talking to the elves. You know, to Elrond or to Gladriel, for instance.

[James Tauber]

Exactly. And in fact I did, as part of my. My master's research in. In 2023, did a study of more generally how different speakers change. Change their style. And Gandalf definitely changes his speech from the early chapters as. As things progress.

[Alan Sisto]

Interesting.

[James Tauber]

The most fascinating one though, that I found just on this do not to don't contraction was Saruman. Saruman does not contract do not to don't. Except in the last parts of book six when he's humbled as a beggar on the road. Then he starts saying don't instead.

[Alan Sisto]

Oh, that's fascinating.

[James Tauber]

I just find that fascinating. But the main point here is that this is a research question that can be answered only because we've got this annotated data.

[Alan Sisto]

Exactly.

[James Tauber]

That's just one example of something that we did back in 2023. We've also been doing a lot of work in the last year or so relating to particularly Lord of the Rings annotating at a paragraph by paragraph level what characters are in the scene where they're located and we're getting to what day and time.

[Alan Sisto]

Oh, wow. Okay.

[James Tauber]

Because I. I've done some visualizations before and you. You've probably seen many people do this where they'll show where a particular character is at a particular time or something like that. Right. They'll show, you know, the movements of the members of the Fellowship at different points where they're located and so on. But one of the things we're always trying to do at the Digital Talking Project is tie that to the text.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah.

[James Tauber]

In a very precise way. And, of course, this is where the citation system comes in as well, because we can address exactly a particular paragraph.

[Alan Sisto]

Right.

[James Tauber]

So how do we know that at this point in time, Aragorn was located, was in this particular location, and so on. But also it enables things like a study of what characters do we get the point of view of. Right. If you have a hypothesis that we're always focusing on, on Frodo in the. In the parts that. Where Frodo is in it at all. Right. How do you actually measure that? Well, if we. If we know for every single paragraph, who's there in the scene in the narrative mainline, not who's being talked about.

[Alan Sisto]

But who's actually there, present in the moment. Yeah, exactly.

[James Tauber]

Which is another thing you can't just search for. Right. If you search for the word Frodo, you get a little bit of an idea that he's, you know, occurring a lot more in book four than book three.

[Alan Sisto]

True. And so he is definitely mentioned in.

[James Tauber]

Book three, but he's mentioned in book three. So to go a step further and say when he's. Is he actually present in the narrative mainline? Well, that's one of the annotations that. That we're doing paragraph by paragraph. Here is. Here's who's present? Where are they located? And that's going to enable all sorts of fun things with maps as well.

[Alan Sisto]

Oh, yeah.

[James Tauber]

Being able to see not only that particular characters were in a particular location, but to then trace that back to the text and say, actually, take me to the paragraph where these characters were at this location. Yeah, that's one of the major things that we're working on at the moment and we'll continue to work on in the short term. One other thing I'll just mention that we're working on in a big way, what's called the Tolkien Glossary, which launched in an early version last year, but we're actively working on it now. And this has to do with capturing information about each word that appears in the text. So often there are questions. Again, this always comes back to what are the research questions that we want to be able to answer? And then what data do we need to be able to answer those questions? So any kind of study of how the language is used, what types of words are used and so on requires you to have some information about those words. If you're interested in when different speakers contract words, you need to know what are the contractions.

[Alan Sisto]

Right.

[James Tauber]

You may be interested in questions like, is there a preponderance of Germanic words in certain parts of the text, as opposed to Latinate words? There may be things like, when are color terms used? When are terms referring to celestial and astronomical objects used? All those sorts of things. All of those questions require you to know, well, what are the color terms? What are the Latinate words? What are the astronomical terms? And so on. What are the adjectives? If you're interested in what adjectives are used in particular situations, and so on. And so what the Tolkien glossary is trying to do is go through every single word that occurs. So it's about 19,000 distinct words occur in. Across the Lord of the Rings, the Hobbit and the Silmarillion, and. And we're tagging them for their. Mostly their linguistic properties. Another aspect of that is which words are invented language words, which words are Sindaran words, which words are qu, which are Old English, and so on. And already having done that, you can then start to do. We can start to do things like visualize where Tolkien is using his invented languages in the text. Do they occur more in one place than another? Yeah. So that hopefully gives you a sense of the kinds of things that we're doing. It's a lot of work, but what we're really trying to do is just slowly and surely building up this. This information, this data.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah.

[James Tauber]

That can be then used in the service of answering interesting questions that people have about talking and even in some.

[Alan Sisto]

Ways, generating interesting questions. Because as you're talking through this, my brain keeps jumping to, ooh, what about this? And what about that?

[James Tauber]

And what I would love people to do is if. When they have interesting questions to make sure they let me know, because that drives a lot of what. Not only what we do, but the priority that we give to doing different.

[Alan Sisto]

That makes sense. Yeah. You mentioned the different voices in the way people speak. I know that for me, thinking about the Council of Elrond is like the chapter that demonstrates, you know, with clarity the very different ways that characters speak from different cultures. Yes. Boromir has a very distinct way of speaking in comparison to, you know, to the others. Gloin has a way of speaking that's different than the others. And part of me, though, and I don't know that we have the time to go in this rabbit hole, but I am fascinated to know because there are already something like 23 individual speakers in the council, or I think that might be the total number of people quoted. But there's fewer speakers. The point is that Gandalf himself quotes like eight or nine characters.

[James Tauber]

Right.

[Alan Sisto]

So how do you do nested stuff like that?

[James Tauber]

So when we were doing the speaker identification, we did model that.

[Alan Sisto]

Okay.

[James Tauber]

And I haven't looked into this yet, but one of the things that fascinates me about that is, do characters speak differently when we're just getting their speech retold right by someone else? So in other words, does Saruman sound different when Gandalf is quoting him, as opposed to what he sounds like when we actually directly get what he says? Yeah, we have the data to explore that. That's not a question I have looked into. But when we were doing the speaker identification, we did model who's the actual speaker and also who. Who are they quoting?

[Alan Sisto]

The person who's quoting the speaker. Okay. Because, you know, because. Because Isildur is the one who speaks even the most differently, you know, because he's speaking very, very antiquated mode of speech, as, you know, he's talking about hot as a Gleed and all that.

[James Tauber]

Yes.

[Alan Sisto]

It feels like Gandalf is reading an ancient script. I mean, he really is, in terms of thousands of years previous. And I just thought, oh, that's an interesting question. Like, how does your data, you know, address that? But it sounds like you're several steps ahead, as I would imagine you would be. Fascinating stuff. You mentioned we. A few times. I know that this project began a little smaller than that. I don't know if it was ever just you, but I know that you've. You've grown a rather large team around the project. Now, can you tell me how this has impacted your ability to not only accomplish the work, but maybe expand your goals or come up with new ideas that would have been impossible or impractical to achieve when it was a smaller team or when it was just you?

[James Tauber]

Yeah, so it did start off as just me. And in fact, it wasn't even entirely conceived of in the form that it's now grown into from the beginning. So back when I had this idea of what if you treated Tolkien the way that you treat the biblical texts and Homer and stuff like that, I was originally just thinking of it as a blog about this topic. I was just going to blog about ideas bringing in from digital classics and biblical studies and so on and applying them to Tolkien just in blog form. I very quickly came across A few classicists that I worked with interestingly, both Italian because there's the Venn diagram of classicists who are interested in Tolkien has a big intersection among Italians. So Italian classics, Tolkien. And so I had some initial collaborators that I work was discussing ideas with and a lot of the initial ideas about a citation system and. And also named entities, which is something I didn't mention, which is going through and marking up in the text anytime you come across a name, a place, a person, an object and stuff like that and cataloging them and that ties in with the Tolkien glossary. So I had some initial discussions and we had this little Slack workspace that we chatted on and we did. A couple of us started doing some annotations but where things really started to take off was when we switched to using Discord. And I think the big difference there was with Slack I was having to pay per user.

[Alan Sisto]

Per user. Yeah.

[James Tauber]

And so it was a very closed group. I didn't want to just open it up to just anyone because I was going to have to have to pay money for every single.

[Alan Sisto]

There's another eight bucks a month.

[James Tauber]

It's why Discord's model is much more appropriate for this because of course individual users can pay Discord if they want to for various, you know, add ons for nitro and stuff like that. But it's not the person running the server that necessarily has to burden take on the burden of that cost. And so we started the Discord for the Digital Token project and it's now got about 300 people on it, most of whom aren't actively involved.

[Alan Sisto]

Right.

[James Tauber]

But it's really. I like work. This is great term I've come across which is working with the garage door open. And it's this idea that as you work on your. Your project.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah.

[James Tauber]

People can come by and see what you're doing. I like that and I really like that with the digital talking project that people can just. They could just lurk. They don't have to get involved. But what started to happen more and more, starting back in 2023 with the speaker identification project.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah.

[James Tauber]

Is we had a handful of people with varying degrees of how much they did. There were two or three people that really went hardcore and really helped out in an amazing way to do that speaker identification. There are a couple of others that just did one or two chapters and so on, which was wonderful. So I think in total we maybe ended up having about nine people that helped with that speaker identification. And now with the, the work that we're Doing. Going through every single paragraph in Lord of the Rings and identifying the, the characters. And in fact, we're not just identifying the characters and the locations and the time, but also we're answering certain questions about the narrative, like, is this real time action or is it giving a summary? And is there travel in this scene? Is, is this scene identifying the location or the time of day and all that sort of information? And we have, again, this core group of people that have just been amazing in contributing to that. And this is something that, you know, it's probably going to take, you know, maybe another year to do, but the.

[Alan Sisto]

More people, the less it takes.

[James Tauber]

Exactly. And the same with the glossary. If people have a particular interest in. In tagging words, particularly if they have an interest in a particular field. So I've got an astronomer doing the astronomy and celestial terminology. I've got a botanist doing plant terms and so on like that. So there's all sorts of ways that people can contribute just in terms of that. And of course, the goal is for all of the data that we produce to be freely available, while the texts themselves we obviously don't have the rights to.

[Alan Sisto]

Correct.

[James Tauber]

We do want to share the data publicly and there's a lot where we're now sort of setting up this is one of the goals for the near term is to publish that data, to make it available as well as to build, you know, web applications and stuff that make it more accessible for people to. Whether it's Tolkien scholars or fans.

[Alan Sisto]

Right.

[James Tauber]

Because of course, it's always been such a blurry line in. Within the.

[Alan Sisto]

To think about the. To fandom. Exactly. I mean, yes, I've had people talk about me as, like, like as a scholar. I'm not a scholar, I'm a fan, but I study and I write.

[James Tauber]

Exactly, exactly.

[Alan Sisto]

I guess. Does that make me a scholar? I don't know. I'm not pursuing a master's or a doctorate, so I don't feel like it does. But yeah, it is certainly, I think, the case that a lot of fans become sort of amateur scholars, if nothing else. Yeah. And it's hard to imagine being a scholar and not being a fan, so.

[James Tauber]

Right.

[Alan Sisto]

Well, we're definitely running out of time, but I want to get your sort of grand vision. Where do you see the digital Tolkien project in say, 5 years and 10 years? You talk about publishing the data, so maybe that's one medium term, long term goal.

[James Tauber]

Yeah, that's. That's a big part of it. And just continuing to do this annotation. So there's, there's still, I mean, the vision that, that I have for the Tolkien glossary and for the annotations that we're doing. Paragraph level annotations. That's going to take a long time. The Silmarillion raises a whole bunch of additional questions with regard to some of that paragraph level annotation because it's such an unconventional narrative.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah.

[James Tauber]

So much of the conventions that we've adopted for annotating Lord of the Rings only make sense when it's a clear, you know, this happened and this person entered the room and this and said this and, and yeah. The Silmarillion is just not structured like that for the most part. Some parts of it are. But when it's giving vast sweeping descriptions of things and you know, of course, you know, of Balerion and its realms being a great example, which is such a, you know, people knock it, but it's such a wonderful example of the kind of text that makes sense for us to annotate and do interesting things.

[Alan Sisto]

100%. It does. Yeah.

[James Tauber]

But it doesn't necessarily fit with a lot of the kind of annotations that we've done in the past. So there's a lot of work still to do there. One of the big tasks that's probably the rest of my life is just has to do with unpacking history, Middle Earth.

[Alan Sisto]

Oh.

[James Tauber]

And not only coming up with citation systems for that, but really provide ways of enabling people to engage with. Because the thing about the history, the history of Middle Earth is it's not just a work in its own right, but it's a container.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah.

[James Tauber]

For a bunch of other texts that have relationships with one another. And the physical structure of the history of Middle Earth volumes is just one way that that information could be presented. And it's somewhat limiting in a print book. And there are multiple times I talked about this at the Christopher Tolkien Centenary Conference. Christopher multiple times says that there are all sorts of ways he could have approached this, but it's basically he had the limitations of the book and so on. There was no real way of presenting this. And I really, at the end of the day, one of my long term visions is to say there are ways of presenting it that I hope Christopher would be, would have been excited about.

[Alan Sisto]

Oh, wow.

[James Tauber]

Because there's just a complexity to it and the different versions of text and the ability to sort of side by side compare texts and all that sort of stuff, that's only possible in kind of digital reading environments as opposed to print books. So that's where I'd eventually like to get. I mean, one of my dreams is to come to an agreement with HarperCollins and the estate to enable an interactive online reading environment that actually does let you see the text.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah.

[James Tauber]

Obviously, you know, it's still under copyright, so it would not be something that would be freely available. But there are ways of dealing with that.

[Alan Sisto]

Well, sure, a subscription based thing where they get some of the revenue and.

[James Tauber]

Yeah, exactly. I almost think of it one, one way I sort of think about it is if you look at something like the Folio Society.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah.

[James Tauber]

And the way that they make these bespoke books that other publishers publish. I mean, you know, they're published already, but they do it in a different there they retypeset them and they recopy edit them and they have wonderful cover design and so on. They put all this tremendous effort into it for people that really care about that stuff. Well, imagine that sort of digitally versus Kindle. Right? Sure, you can buy the Kindle version.

[Alan Sisto]

Sure.

[James Tauber]

But what if you could instead get a much richer, carefully crafted online reading experience that brought in all this extra annotation and linking between the text and that kind of stuff.

[Alan Sisto]

Great.

[James Tauber]

That's my long term, you know, that's a dream. Sometime in my lifetime.

[Alan Sisto]

We can all hope. Well, James, thank you for bringing us through all of this. I am just so excited for all that you've been able to do with the Digital Tolkien project, but even more so for the things that are coming. So really, really excited, folks. One last thing. Tell folks where they can find you.

[James Tauber]

Yeah. So the best, the best thing to do is go to digitaltalking.com There you go. But you know, Digital Tolkien on a bunch of social media platforms as well. There's a YouTube channel, but all of that's linked from digitaltalking.com as well as things like that I mentioned like the glossary and.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah. And then the Discord as well as something.

[James Tauber]

And the Discord.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah.

[James Tauber]

All linked from digitaltalking.com all right, well.

[Alan Sisto]

Let'S go ahead and get into today's discussion. It's going to be an interesting one. After handing the reins off to James, the decision was that we're going to take an entire episode looking at the Lore Master Pengaloth. And James, why don't I have you go ahead and start out, kind of give us some background about who this guy is.

[James Tauber]

Would love to. In this episode, we're going to look at two accounts of conversations Pengaloth had with everyone's second favorite Mariner Alfuina. Sorry, Eldarion.

[Alan Sisto]

So Eldarion is the third greatest.

[James Tauber]

I think a distant third.

[Alan Sisto]

So he's. So he is to Feanor and Rumil. What? To Elfwina. And.

[James Tauber]

Where are you putting Fedor in this? Is he first or last? Okay, Anyway, the two accounts that we're going to look at form part three of the Peoples of Middle Earth, Teachings of Pengalov.

[Alan Sisto]

All right, now, in the Book of Lost Tales, the frame narrative is the elves on the lonely isle telling stories to Ariel. And later, Ariel becomes the name that the elves give to Elfwina. But in the 1930s, that frame narrative changes. Elfwina becomes the translator of works that were supposedly written by a Pengalad, the Wise of Gondolin. And folks, I just want to note that it's the d. Pengalad, not the voiced th sound, like you'll so often hear us say with Pengaloth. Now, that includes. That frame narrative includes the Einor Lindale, the Pennas or Quinta Silmarillion, the Annals of Valinor, the Annals of Beleriand, and the Account of Tongues or the Hlamas. And Pengalad is said in turn to have derived certain material from the writings of Rumil, the Elf sage of Valinor.

[James Tauber]

In particular, the parts of the annals taking place in Valinor were written by Rumal, but the parts in Beleriand were written by Pengalad. Even in the Annals of Valinor, though, in any time there's mention made of what was going on with Thingol et al, in Beleriand, it's annotated with Thus Saith Pengala or Quoth Pengala.

[Alan Sisto]

Quoth Pengala. I think we have the name of our episode title, Quoth Pengala.

[James Tauber]

I definitely. I definitely think it should be. Tolkien refers to these in the Annals of Elnor as the Baleriandic Interpolations. Great name for a band.

[Alan Sisto]

The Valerianic Interpolations. Only you, James, would think that's a great band name.

[James Tauber]

But all right, there's even a point where Pengalod adds this. Have I Pengalod added here, for it was not known unto Rumil, the supposedly superior historian.

[Alan Sisto]

I just want to make sure folks all know I know something Rumil didn't know.

[James Tauber]

I can imagine. We now cross to our Balerion correspondent, Penkalod with the latest news from Middle Earth.

[Alan Sisto]

Well, Rumil, I'm coming to you from the depths of the Forest of Brethil, and you would not believe what we're able to find here. Elfwina. In one document writes these histories were written by Pengalad the Wise of Gondolin, both in that city before its fall and afterwards at Tathrobel in the lonely isle Tolorecia. This is also back when some of these names were a little different. In this case, it's Toloresia, one word as opposed to what we're all used to seeing.

[James Tauber]

And Tathra Bel rather than Tavrabel.

[Alan Sisto]

Oh, oh, it's Tathrabel, not Tathra Israel. Oh, yeah, you're right.

[James Tauber]

Well, I mean, it's. I don't know whether it was voiced or not, but normally it's a V rather than a th.

[Alan Sisto]

Oh, you're right. Yeah. Okay. And this, of course, be after the Return unto the west is what Al Wina writes. He continues, in their making, he used much the writings of Rumil the elf sage of Valinor, chiefly in the Annals of Valinor and the account of Tongues. And he used also the accounts that are preserved in the Golden Book, the work of Pengalad. I learned much by heart and turned into my tongue some during my sojourn in the west, but most after my return to Britain, because, of course, that was the frame narrative that we know was. Was part of. So when Tolkien was first trying to get this Silmarillion material published, and remember, he was trying to get this published back when he wanted the Lord of the Rings published. So this is a long time coming, he conceived of the work as consisting of the Quintus Silmarillion proper, the two Annals and the llamas. In other words, the Silmarillion was intended to pretty much just be the works of Pengalad, translated by Elfwina.

[James Tauber]

Now, post Lord of the Rings, things shifted to Alfuina, not just translating the works of Pengalod, but hearing stories directly from as Tolkien started to call him Pengalov.

[Alan Sisto]

Okay, so that's when you get the voice.

[James Tauber]

Exactly. Yeah. And there are various accounts of Pengalov and Alf Winner discussing things. In one discussion on the origin of Orcs, it's Pengalov who argues that Melkor could not actually make anything that had life.

[Alan Sisto]

Right.

[James Tauber]

He could only corrupt that which was already living. So that idea is actually from Pengalov.

[Alan Sisto]

Oh, that's interesting because, I mean, that's certainly something that we all accept as, you know, like a hard, firm part of the canon. Melkor can do a lot, but he can't do that.

[James Tauber]

Yeah. So this is actually an argument that Pengalov makes from his own reasoning.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah. From his own knowledge of History and his own. Yeah, yeah.

[James Tauber]

But it's in another discussion between Pengalov and Alshwinna that we're going to focus on in particular in this episode.

[Alan Sisto]

Okay.

[James Tauber]

Before we get to that, though, we do have a bit of biographical information that we get in the War of the Jewels.

[Alan Sisto]

That's right now in the work, Quendi and Eldar, subtitled Origin and Meanings of the Elvish Words, referring to elves and their varieties, with appendices on their names for other incarnates. What a subtitle that is.

[James Tauber]

It's such an 18th century title.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, it really is. It's more of a summary than a subtitle, really.

[James Tauber]

Yes.

[Alan Sisto]

Let me sum up. No, you have more room than that. Let me explain. So in that work we get the following. Though Feanor, after the days of his first youth, took no more active part in linguistic lore and inquiry, he is credited by traditional with the foundation of a school of Lambengolmor, or Loremasters of Tongues, to carry on this work, this continued in existence among the Noldor. And he's using the early version of that. Which is more like Noldor, Right? It's like the N G O L D O R even through the rigors and disasters of the flight from Aman and the wars in Beleriand. And it survived indeed to return to Eressea. Of the school, the most eminent member after the founder was, was or still is Pengaloth, an Elf of mixed Sindarin and Noldoran ancestry, born in Nevrast, who lived in Gondolin. From its foundation he wrote both in Sindarin and in Quenya. He was one of the survivors of the destruction of Gondolin, from which he rescued a few ancient writings and some of his own copies, compilations and commentaries. It is due to this and to his prodigious memory that much of the knowledge of the Elder Days was preserved. All that has here been said concerning the Elvish names and their origins and concerning the views of the older loremasters, is derived directly or indirectly from Pengaloth. For before the overthrow of Morgoth and the ruin of Beleriand, he collected much material among the survivors of the wars at Sirion's mouth, concerning languages and gesture systems with which, owing to the isolation of of Gondolin, he had not before had any direct acquaintance. Pengalad is said to have remained in Middle Earth until far on into the Second Age for the furtherance of his enquiries, and for a while to have dwelt among the dwarves of Kassarondo Khazad Dum. But when the shadow of Sauron fell upon Eriador, he left Middle Earth, the last of the Lembin Golmor, and sailed to Eressea, where maybe he still abides. Wow, that's a blurb. There's an about the author page you don't normally read.

[James Tauber]

Exactly. And it's fascinating to think that he was there in the Second Age.

[Alan Sisto]

I know.

[James Tauber]

Time in Khazad Dum and everything.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah. All the way until Sauron's shadow falls on Eriador. He's around for a long time.

[James Tauber]

Yeah. And he's a big deal, right? I mean, he's a huge deal.

[Alan Sisto]

I mean, he's the connection. He's the connection between everything. Yeah, he really is.

[James Tauber]

Everything in the published Silmarillion in some way came through him, at least in Tolkien's original.

[Alan Sisto]

But I'm not even in universe. He connects Valinor and Middle Earth in a way that nobody else does because certainly Feanor and Rumil had nothing to do with Middle Earth. So he carries those traditions over with him now. Yeah, he's isolated in Gondolin for a while and so he has to.

[James Tauber]

He makes up for it though.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah, exactly. Learn a little bit about the languages, but wow.

[James Tauber]

Yeah, fascinating. Yeah, it's remarkable. Which again raises the question, why is there no mention of him in the Lord of the Rings or the Silmarillion even? Right. He doesn't even get a mention in the Silmarillion. Yeah. Even though, you know, as we've said, he was crucial to the transmission of the history, he seems to get erased altogether. Now, we will talk at the end of the episode about why that may have been good and some of some of Tolkien's changes in ideas that may have led to that. Okay, but let's first of all get to the first of the teachings of Pengaloth in the peoples of Middle Earth, the Dungwith Pengalove.

[Alan Sisto]

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[James Tauber]

See details online.

[Alan Sisto]

25% off vacation essentials is valid in US and Canada through June 9, 2025. Applies to select styles as indicated. Price reflects discount now. Soon we'll get back to the answer of Pengaloth. But before we do, we want to remind you there's a lot more talk going on at the Prancing Pony Podcast than just us.

[James Tauber]

The PPP has an amazing listener community. They're always coming up with great questions and discussions across all our social media spaces. Check out our Common Room on Facebook, our dedicated subreddit, Twitter and more now on Facebook.

[Alan Sisto]

Just look for the Prancing Pony podcast. Follow the page to get the news, but you're going to want to join the group to get involved in some.

[James Tauber]

Great discussions on Twitter, Instagram, BlueSky, Twitch, TikTok and YouTube. We're AntcingPonyPod or if you prefer Reddit, find us there at R prancingponypod.

[Alan Sisto]

And if you want daily Tolkien content, check out today's Tolkien Times on the PPP YouTube channel and on all your favorite podcast apps. That's my short format daily show with everything from Middle Earth Map Monday to Word Nerd Wednesdays. And there's my new twice weekly streaming of all fun things Middle Earth on the PPP plays. Be sure to check both of those out on the YouTube channel for all the PPP productions [e-mail] rancingponypod okay, let's.

[James Tauber]

Get back to the Dungweth Pengalov.

[Alan Sisto]

All right, well, that Dungweth Pengala, the answer of Pengala exists in two manuscripts. And the first, Christopher tells us, is a really good, clear text. But the second, it is a beautiful illuminated manuscript. And if you've got a hardcover copy of the Peoples of Middle Earth, it is produced there as the frontispiece in of front full color, and it is stunning. Christopher points out that it was a work of importance to my father is evident from his writing it again in a manuscript of such elegance. Now, here's the interesting thing. The illuminated manuscript, along with the text of Lembas, which we'll talk about later, was enclosed in a newspaper from January 5, 1960, on which Tolkien wrote two items from the lore of Pengalov Danbeth to question how why did Elvish language change?

[James Tauber]

Now, the Dan Beth on the newspaper, but dungweth in the manuscript is quite appropriate given the topic of language change.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah, it is.

[James Tauber]

Tolkien considered both, but decided on the word for answer, dungweth, with a root, gweth, meaning report given account of in form of things unknown or wished to be known, rather than the mere beth, meaning word.

[Alan Sisto]

Fair enough. Be more specific. Right, yeah.

[James Tauber]

Christopher suggests that the Dungwe Pengalov cannot be earlier than 1951, while from the date of the newspaper, it cannot be later than the end of 1959. He says, I would be inclined to place it earlier rather than later in the decade.

[Alan Sisto]

Now, that's interesting. I'm curious. Do you know why he could date it all the way back to 1951?

[James Tauber]

He does not seem to give a reason for why he thinks it should be earlier in the decade. He doesn't give a reason.

[Alan Sisto]

Okay. Yeah. It's not to say there isn't one. He obviously had one. It just didn't feel like it was necessary to explain it.

[James Tauber]

I mean, normally he dates things like that based on choice of spelling of names or relevance to the topics at hand. But he doesn't elaborate in this case?

[Alan Sisto]

No. Okay, well, let's go ahead and look at the Dangwath Pingalath itself. Not just sort of like how it came about or, you know, what it is, look at it itself. The work itself is Pengelad's answer to the question, if elves live for such a long time, why would there even be language change? And that's really a good question. We know groups of elves were separated from one another, right? Whether we're talking about the Teleri from the Vanyar and Noldor, the Sindar and the Nandor, that then break off from the Teleri that continued on to Emon. What about the Noldor who went back to Middle Earth versus those that stayed in Valinor, given their long life? And by long, I mean the life of Arda. Is that enough to explain the differences between the different Elvish languages? So, James, tell us what Pengeloth himself says. Begin reading for us, if you would be glad.

[James Tauber]

To Dungweth Pengaloth, the answer of Pengalod to Alfuina, who asked him, how came it that the tongues of the elves changed and were sundered? Now you question me, Alfrina, concerning the tongues of the elves, saying that you wonder much to discover that they are many, akin indeed, yet unalike. For seeing that they die not, and their memories reach back into ages long past, you understand not why all the race of the Quendi have not maintained the language that they had of old in common, still one and the same in all their kindreds. But behold Dafuina, within air all things change, even the valor.

[Alan Sisto]

Ooh.

[James Tauber]

So Pengaloth talks about a view of things that takes in all of space and time. All things change because they exist in space and in time. He goes on to talk about how a book, once read, is a single completed thing, but one part of it is not the same as another.

[Alan Sisto]

Oh, okay. Interesting analogy. I like that.

[James Tauber]

Well, it gets even better. He gives two other examples, the River Syrian and the Valar Manwe. And I think these analogies are both beautiful philosophically and literarily. This is one of my favorite things of talking.

[Alan Sisto]

All right.

[James Tauber]

So Pinkala says, from the spring in the mountains to the mouths of the sea, all is Sirion. And from its first up dwelling even to its passing away when the land was broken in the great battle, that also is Sirion, and nothing less, though we who are set to behold the great history reading line by line, may speak of the river changing as it flows and grows broad, or dying as it is spilled or devoured by the sea. Yea, even from his first coming into Ea from the side of Iluvatar, and from the young lord of the Valar in the white wrath of his battle with Melkor, unto the silent king of years uncounted, that sits upon the vanished heights of Oelosi and watches but speaks no more, all that is he whom we call Manwe. It's, it's beautiful writing, but it also has a fascinating point, truth, doesn't it?

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah, right.

[James Tauber]

It's always the Syrian, it's always Manwe. But both change.

[Alan Sisto]

Not only do they change, but they are different things, even at the same time. I mean, I'm thinking particularly Sirion. Right. I mean, like you said, the space and time. I mean, the Manwe example is sort of a time example, but the Sirion example is a space and time example and time.

[James Tauber]

He says both. Because he says, from the spring of the mountains to the mouth of the sea.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah.

[James Tauber]

And then gives the time dimension of it. Yeah.

[Alan Sisto]

And it's fascinating. And he's, He. He makes a good point. Because I have to admit, this is a question that I'd asked long before I'd read the history of Middle Earth. It's like, okay, okay, Elsa forever. So why would the language change so much? I mean, I remember what I spoke 10,000 years ago. Why wouldn't I still speak the same language?

[James Tauber]

And this is exactly what he's going.

[Alan Sisto]

To address is what he's getting at. And then also in hindsight, really, do I speak the same language that I spoke even 30 years ago?

[James Tauber]

Well, Pingaloth is going to get.

[Alan Sisto]

Arguably I don't. Right. I mean, I grew up in Southern California in the 80s. I certainly do not speak like I did when I was. When it was the 80s.

[James Tauber]

And this is going to be Pinkalov's suggestion too.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah, I think this is going to be really interesting. So he does give another example about trees. And then he moves on to the elves. And this is beautiful, too. Immortal within Ea are the Eldar. But since even as men they dwell in for forms that come of Ea, they are no more changeless than the great trees, neither in the forms that they inhabit, nor in the things that they desire or achieve by means of those forms. Wherefore should they not then change in speech, of which one part is made with tongues and received by ears? So we get this enumeration of things that change in elves, right? The forms they inhabit, their desires, their achievements. That makes sense. We all change over time, both in our. Our physical bodies as well as what we want, what we've been able to accomplish. So why wouldn't their speech change as well? And then Pingalot continues, weak indeed may be the memories of men. But I say to you, Elfwina, that even were your memory of your own being as clear as that of the wisest of the Eldar, still within the short span of your life, your speech would change. And were you to live on with the life of the elves, it would change more until, looking back, you would perceive that in your youth you spake an alien tongue.

[James Tauber]

It's exactly what you just said about yourself.

[Alan Sisto]

Totally tubular, man.

[James Tauber]

Did you really speak like that? No.

[Alan Sisto]

No, I did not. Actually, I'm very. I'm very proud to say I did not completely get into surfer slash valley speak in the 80s. But, I mean, that's the point. We do use different words. We also use the same words in different meanings, even over the course of a normal human lifespan. So, sure. You know, this whole point, this sets up a point of contention among the Lore Masters, right? I mean, some of them would say the languages of men change because the memories of men are poor. Oh, those stupid, lame men. Of course, their language has changed their inferior. But Pengala thinks they would change even if their memories were as good as the elves. And he adds this for men change both their old words for new and their former manner of speaking for another manner in their own lifetimes, and not only in the first learning of speech. And this change comes above all from the very changefulness of aa, or, if you will, from the nature of speech, which is fully living only when it is born, but when the union of the thought and the sound is fallen into old custom and the two are no longer perceived apart from then, already the word is dying and joyless, the sound awaiting some new thought, and the thought eager for some new patterned raiment of sound. Wow. Wow. Mind blowing.

[James Tauber]

Yeah. So he starts off saying, in other words, language has to change because the world changes.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah.

[James Tauber]

Our lives change, as you said. But there's so much I love about this passage. Firstly, there's this idea that when a word is fossilized in meaning, it becomes dead and joyless.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah.

[James Tauber]

But then he introduces this idea of sounds being separate from thought, and the thought always looking for a sound to dress itself in.

[Alan Sisto]

I love that. What a picture that is.

[James Tauber]

Exactly. It's almost as if Pengaloth is saying words are thoughts with clothes on.

[Alan Sisto]

Ooh. Ooh, I like that.

[James Tauber]

And it ties beautifully with Tolkien's aesthetic appreciation of words.

[Alan Sisto]

I was thinking that exact thing. I mean, that's so Tolkienian right there.

[James Tauber]

Yeah. So for sounds, association with a particular meaning becomes joyless. It should cast off the old meaning and adorn a new one.

[Alan Sisto]

It's.

[James Tauber]

I just. It's a gorgeous analogy.

[Alan Sisto]

And because it all stems from the fact that we don't live in a static universe, AI itself is changeful. That is, change is part of the very nature of our entire universe.

[James Tauber]

Yep.

[Alan Sisto]

So it's going to be reflected in linguistic change, too.

[James Tauber]

Yep, absolutely. And then we get a new analogy which is going to set up a difference between elves and men. Pengaloth tells us that elves differ from men in that they're ever more aware of the words that they speak, as a silversmith may remain more aware than others of the tools and vessels that he uses daily at his table or a weaver of the texture of his garments. Yet this makes rather for change among the Eldar than for steadfastness. For the Eldar, being skilled and eager in art, will readily make things new, both for delight to look on or to hear or to feel, or for daily use, be it in vessels or raiment or in speech. And I also love. I love this because it goes against any notion that somehow Tolkien was a curmudgeon and completely conservative in things. He's saying. No, the artisan delights in the new. Yeah, they're more aware of their materials, but this doesn't make them resistant to change, but gives them an additional eagerness for change. Yeah, they want new things to look at, to hear, to feel. And this is extra true of the elves because they are even more aware of the words they speak. They're artisans of the word, and so they love this idea of what new things they can do.

[Alan Sisto]

And artisans of the war. Does that not describe Tolkien himself?

[James Tauber]

Exactly.

[Alan Sisto]

I mean, that's.

[James Tauber]

We're going to see more signs of, I think, some autobiographical.

[Alan Sisto]

I was going to say. I'm starting to sense some. Some Tolkien in Pengelad here. So next, Pengalad gives one way, though, in which speech is different from other crafts. So right now we've got the difference between elves and men that you just looked at. Now we're looking at the way speech itself differs from, let's say, silversmithing or, you know, what a garment maker might do. A man may indeed change his spoon or his cup at his will, and need ask none to advise him or to follow his choice. It is other indeed with words or the modes and devices of speech. Let him be. Think him of a new word, be it to his heart, howsoever, fresh and fair, it will avail him little in converse until other men are of like mind. Or. Or we'll receive his invention. We can make up a new word. Let's say, like, we've. We've taken the. The. An acronym. The. An acronym.

[James Tauber]

It's a great word.

[Alan Sisto]

You just made up a word just.

[James Tauber]

Made up a word and I like it, so I do too.

[Alan Sisto]

But that's only. Nobody else does. We've taken that acronym of shall prove it by an instrument, made it spabimi, which is sort of a word, right? I mean, it's spelled S P U H, BM I don't know how it's spelled. Spa Bimmy, but it's. It's got a very limited audience. Right. A few thousand people know what it means in the entire world. So it is. It will avail you little in converts. That's a great point. I mean, look, I can, I can drink out of a 70 ounce mug if I want to be really weird and nobody's going to care. People might look at me funny, but it's not going to change anything. But if I start coming up with funky words that nobody else wants to use, they're not going to mean it's useless. Yeah, that's right, exactly. So crafting a new word requires others to receive it and to be willing to receive it. So language really differs in that way. And Pengaloth continues. But among the Eldar, there are many quick ears and subtle minds to hear and appraise such inventions. And though many be the patterns and devices so made that prove in the end only pleasing to a few or to one alone, many others are welcomed and pass swiftly from mouth to mouth with laughter or delight, or with solemn thought, as maybe a new jest or newfound saying of wisdom will pass among men of brighter wit. For to the Eldar, the making of speech is the oldest of the arts and the most beloved. And boy, there's another autobiographical point about Tolkien right there. Now I'm put in mind of Mythopia and how like stars weren't stars until we called them that, basically, you know, and how it is the oldest of the arts.

[James Tauber]

Yep.

[Alan Sisto]

So, you know, the Eldar, of course, are more receptive to the crafting of new words and devices of speech and. Yeah, the ancientry of the craft of being a speech maker, of coming up with words.

[James Tauber]

Fascinating.

[Alan Sisto]

Absolutely fascinating.

[James Tauber]

You can see why I love this so much as a lingo.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah, yeah, I see why you were like, ah, let me do one on Pengala.

[James Tauber]

Exactly.

[Alan Sisto]

This is.

[James Tauber]

Yeah, this is my. My manifesto, my or Tolkien's really in aspects. There you go. I said Tolkien continues PENGALOV continues. Yes, the Eldar would alter the sounds of their speech at wilds to other sounds that seemed to them more pleasant or were at the least unstaled. But this they would not do at haphazard for the Eldar know their tongue, not word by word only, but as a whole. They know, even as they speak, not only of what sounds is that word woven which they are uttering, but of what sounds and sound patterns is their whole speech at one time composed. I'll say more about that in a moment. There's a footnote in the manuscript itself, and these are, for the most part, few in number. For the Eldar, being skilled in craft and not wasteful nor prodigal to small purpose, admiring in a tongue, rather the skilled and harmonious use of a few well balanced sounds than profusion, ill ordered.

[Alan Sisto]

That makes sense. I mean, that's. That's very, very elvish right there.

[James Tauber]

I want you to remember this, though, because I think he's setting up criticism in the primary world of other people's invented languages.

[Alan Sisto]

Of course he is.

[James Tauber]

I think that's where he's going.

[Alan Sisto]

Of course he is.

[James Tauber]

The main text continues, though therefore none among the Eldar would change the sounds of some one word alone, but would rather change some one sound throughout the structure of his speech. Nor would he bring into one word only some sound or union of sounds that had not before been present, but would replace some former sound by the new sound in all words that contained it, or if not in all, then in a number, selected according to their shapes and their and other elements, as he's guided by some new pattern that he has in mind. Even a weaver might change a thread from red to blue, either throughout his web or in such parts thereof as were suitable to the new pattern, but not randomly here and there, nor only in one corner. Okay, again, remember that, because I'm going to say, say more about that in the primary world context. Christopher then brings up, though, a note that his father had made on the Shibboleth of Feanor, where he wrote, the Eldar had an instinctive grasp of the structure and sound system of their speech as a whole, and this was increased by instruction. For, in a sense, all Eldaran languages were invented languages, art forms, not only inherited but also material, engaging the active interest of their users and challenging awarely their own taste and inventiveness.

[Alan Sisto]

I really like that. That's so interesting, because, of course, let's just be honest, outside of the universe, all Eldaran languages are indeed invented languages. So cool to tie that in and make them invented languages, even in universe.

[James Tauber]

Exactly. So there's a few things to unpack here. One is this whole idea of a sound system, right? Rather than just individual random words changing. Right? He talks about this Whole idea of, no, the sounds got to change systematically throughout the language. So this whole idea of a sound system, rather than just individual sounds, is core to modern linguistics. But it was also core among the Neo Grammarian school, which was the late 19th century philological tradition that Tolkien himself studied under Joseph Wright.

[Alan Sisto]

Okay.

[James Tauber]

The mantra of the Neo Grammarians was that sound laws don't have exceptions. Every sound change can be explained. Okay. And one of the shining achievements of that sort of led to this is something that people may have heard. Grimm's Law. Basically, it was noticed in the early 19th century that anytime you had a P in Latin, you had an F in the. Or a F sound in the Germanic languages. So a classic example of that is the Latin parta versus the German father. Our father.

[Alan Sisto]

Right.

[James Tauber]

And a Danish linguist, Rasmus Rusk, realized that there were actually a whole series of changes like that that were quite systematic. And again, it's not just that one word changed, it's that all the instances of P change to F. Interesting. And all the B's became P's and the D's became T's and G's became K's and so on. There was this very consistent shift from proto Indo European to proto Germanic. And you see it in all the Germanic languages as opposed to the other Indo European languages.

[Alan Sisto]

Right.

[James Tauber]

And this was popularized by. By Jakob Grimm, which is why it's known as Grimm's Law, even though it was really Rasmus Rusk that.

[Alan Sisto]

That.

[James Tauber]

That formulated it. But there was a problem, which was it didn't always work. There were some words that it didn't seem to apply. Another Danish linguist, Carl Werner, came along at the end of the 19th century or towards the end of the 19th century and realized that those seeming exceptions could be explained once you took into account where the stress was in the word.

[Alan Sisto]

Okay.

[James Tauber]

And if you merely had a rule that said, when the stress is there, it does this, when it's not there, it does that, that perfectly explained the data.

[Alan Sisto]

Oh, wow. So really was true in that case, that the sound law didn't have an exception.

[James Tauber]

Exactly. And this was sort of seen as the shining achievement of philology as a science. And the people that sort of really held this up, the Neo grammarians in Leipzig and other places, that's who Joseph Wright studied with in Germany. That's the kind of comparative philology that he brought back to Oxford. And that's what Tolkien studied. So Tolkien was very much part of that tradition that really focused on the consistency of the sound changes and viewing the whole system of sound as A whole rather than just individual words. And another example in English is something called the Great Vowel Shift, which is a change in all of the long vowels that happened in English in the early modern period. It's why Shakespeare doesn't rhyme for us any anymore. Or why we get really weird spelling like the fact that we say the foot with two O's. Foot used to be said foot as just a long version of a single O.

[Alan Sisto]

Right.

[James Tauber]

And, and feet was fat. But the Great Vowel Shift caused these, these changes in, in pronunciation. That's why we say bite rather than bit and, and so on. But the key thing is these weren't just a change in one word and not another. This was a systematic change and one change led to another. There are these things, Grimm's Law and the Great Vowel Shift are examples of what are called chain shifts because one change causes another. You know, it frees up space for another sound to move into and so on. And so it's all very. You've got to view language as a system. You can't just talk about these isolated changes. And that's exactly what Tolkien's talking about here. Right. He's, he's really focusing on, on this idea of language as a system and, and saying that elves understand this. They have an instinctive grasp of the structure and sound system of their speech as a whole.

[Alan Sisto]

So they're all linguists, they're all philologists.

[James Tauber]

Well, that's what makes it really interesting. I think that he's. Especially in light of the fact that he says that the Eldaran languages are invented languages.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah.

[James Tauber]

The implication here is that a good language inventor would have their languages exhibit the same properties. Right. You can tell.

[Alan Sisto]

That's inconsistency and sustainability.

[James Tauber]

Exactly. Yeah, exactly. If your constructed language, your invented language treats language and sound as a system.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah.

[James Tauber]

Then it's actually the way real languages work. Implication, the Eldar are good language inventors and maybe some other people in the primary world are not so good language inventors. I truly believe Tolkien's having a bit of a dig at.

[Alan Sisto]

Oh, I'm sure.

[James Tauber]

And other people's language in Rich. The elves knew how to do it. I know how to do it.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah.

[James Tauber]

Some other people, not so much.

[Alan Sisto]

Some not so much very sophisticated way of making his point. So Pengaloth continues, he says, and lo, Elfwina, these changes differ little from like changes that come in the speeches of men with the passing of time. Now as for the Eldar, we know that such things were done of old by choice, full wittingly and the names of those who made new words or first moved great changes are yet often remembered. So maybe here he's like, hey, it would be nice to be remembered for this. Like, we should have our names written down. Anyway, so the kinds of changes that the Eldar made are not dissimilar to the way that human languages change, but they are more deliberate, right? Even to the extent that the Eldar know and credit the people who made the changes. And again, we get that implication that the names of good language inventors might or should go down in history. Pengalad then goes on to consider why there is order and harmony even in the changes in human language, right? I mean, they're not as good at this as the elves. So why, why is there order and harmony? Why. Why do their changes also follow rules? Well, there's debate among the Lore masters, but Pengalad basically concludes, well, we can't know for sure. The Eldar just don't understand what goes on in the minds of men. Sort of like I don't understand why the rats push this button in the. In the maze, because they're so far beneath me. I cannot understand their. Their terrible way of thinking. Pengalad at that point gets into the distinction between living speech, right? The speech of that people use on a day to day basis and that retained for Lore. He says, and to speak of memory, Elfwina, with regard to the elves, for I know not how it is with men that which we call the Korea Quenya, the living speech, is the language wherethrough we think and imagine. For it is to our thought as the body, to our spirit, growing and changing together in all the days of our being into that language, therefore we render at once whatsoever we recall out of the past that we heard or said ourselves. If a man remembers something that he said in childhood, doth he recall the accents of childhood that he used in that moment long ago? I know not, but certainly we of the Quendi do not. So, so in this paragraph we get this concept of koiorea Quenya, the living speech. Pengaloth explains that the Quendi remember the meaning of things that were said and heard as being distinct from the sounds. And he wondered if it was the same for humans. Is really interesting because then he distinguishes that from the role of the older languages. He writes, for we have much lore concerning the languages of old, whether stored in the mind or in writings. But we hear not ourselves speak again in the past, save with the language that clothes our thought in the present. Verily, it may chance that in the past we spake with strangers in an alien tongue and remember what was then said, but not the tongue that was used. If the speech were long or the matter subtle, then we clothe it in the living language of our present thought. And if we would now relate it as it was spoken, we must render it anew, as it were a book into that other tongue, if it is preserved still in learned lore. The Koirea Quenya, the language of thought, grows and lives within, and each new stage overlies those that went before, as the acorn and the sapling are hidden in the tree. Oh, another rich analogy. So there's a footnote in the paragraph where Pengalad says, there's one case in the history of the Eldalier where a former tongue is dropped as the language of living and daily use. That's when the Noldoran exiles took up Sindarin at the. At the suggestion of thingol, but preserve their old tongue as a language of lore, which of course would be Quenya.

[James Tauber]

In the concluding paragraphs, Pengalov winds the discussion up by saying, wherefore, Alfuinna, if thou wilt, consider well all that I have said to thee at this time, not only what is plainly expressed, but also what is therein to be discovered by thought, thou wilt now understand that, albeit more wittingly, albeit more slowly, the tongues of the Kwendi change in a manner like to the changes of mortal tongues, thus swifter or slower, yet ever inescapably the far sundered kindreds of the Quendi were sundered also in speech. The Avari from the Eldar and the Teleri from the other Eldar and the Sindar who abode in Middle Earth, from the Teleri that came at last unto Aman and the exiles of the Noldor, from those that remained in the land of the Valar. And so still it goes in Middle Earth.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah.

[James Tauber]

The work then ends with the words sin, quente, quel dingoldo, Elendilenna. So it's appropriate to end with a bit of Quenya here.

[Alan Sisto]

Oh, it sure is. I love that.

[James Tauber]

So, interestingly, the sinquente quendin goldo means thus said Pengelov. So this is another Quenta is spoken. Quindingoldo is Pengalov's name in Quenya.

[Alan Sisto]

Okay.

[James Tauber]

And what's interesting is this exhibits a common sound change that you can find across all sorts of words, where a qu in Quenya corresponds to a P in Sindarin.

[Alan Sisto]

Oh, interesting.

[James Tauber]

So we see another place that we've Already seen, that is. Remember, we saw before the quintessilmarillion, early versions of that were titled the penas. Penas is just the Sindarin word for quenta.

[Alan Sisto]

Oh.

[James Tauber]

And one of the sound changes that's gone on there is that qu. The qu. The qu sound has become p. And we see it here. Pengaloth is from Quindingolo. Yeah. And there's also, interestingly, of course, that the second part, elendelena, to Elendil.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah.

[James Tauber]

So he's referring to al fuena as elf friend.

[Alan Sisto]

I love that.

[James Tauber]

And that ending, enna is an ending that means to. It's what linguists call the allative to something.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah, we see that in a few. I mean, I'm immediately thinking of, like Elendil's oath. Out of the great sea unto Middle Earth I am come. Right.

[James Tauber]

Yes.

[Alan Sisto]

And he uses that same ending, is there?

[James Tauber]

Exactly. So ello is the ending when it's from, and ena is the ending when it's to.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah.

[James Tauber]

So you see that a lot in Queen.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah, you really do. I think I remember doing a little bit of word nerdery on that on a Word nerd Wednesday, but. Et e Rello. Right. So there's that. Out of the great sea and. Yep, right. Is, you know, to Middle Earth I have come.

[James Tauber]

Exactly.

[Alan Sisto]

Elendelena. Oh, man, that's beautiful.

[James Tauber]

That's wonderful. And you can. I mean, you can see why I love this essay so much. It's.

[Alan Sisto]

It's fantastic.

[James Tauber]

I mean, I would teach this in an Introduction to Historical Linguistics class because it captures so much of what we now understand about language change and the way it works, but it also just has this. This wonderful take on invented languages as well and how to make them realistic.

[Alan Sisto]

And that's the thing. I like how he's saying all these languages of the Eldar are invented languages to an extent. Isn't that also the case for primary world languages, that they're not all invented by one person? It's not like a person invents English.

[James Tauber]

I don't know. Because he makes it pretty clear, a pengalov does anyway, that he thinks it's accidental in the case of pain.

[Alan Sisto]

Okay. Wasn't sure. Yeah, it just sort of happens that way.

[James Tauber]

Well, and that's sort of the point. The point is that a good language inventor will have that systematicity that you actually get naturally by it happening accidentally.

[Alan Sisto]

That makes sense. So this happens already in a sort of chaotic system in nature. And so if you're creating one, it needs to have these same traits, these same characteristics that the one in nature has.

[James Tauber]

Exactly. Because. And that comes back to the reason the reason that the the natural systems develop in a systematic way comes back to that point that he makes about the craft of of language invention. Needing needing a recipient. Yes, right. You can't just make up things, Winnie Nilly. And so it turns out when you have like a complex adaptive system like language, where you know, you need the recipients to be able to understand what you're saying, that leads to a certain systematicity because you can't just make a random change here and there. So even though it's accidental, unwitting, I think, is one of the terms that Tolkien or Pengaloth uses here, it still results in systematic changes because that's required for it to be understood by others and adopted by others.

[Alan Sisto]

That is fascinating. Of course. We're not done, folks. We've got some more stuff that Pingala teaches and we'll get to that in a little bit.

[James Tauber]

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[Alan Sisto]

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[James Tauber]

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[Alan Sisto]

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[James Tauber]

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[Alan Sisto]

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[James Tauber]

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[Alan Sisto]

The Venmo MasterCard is issued by the.

[James Tauber]

Bancorp bank and a pursuant to license.

[Alan Sisto]

My MasterCard International, Inc. Card may be used everywhere. MasterCard is accepted. Venmo purchase restrictions apply. This episode is brought to you by State Farm. Knowing you could be saving money for the things you really want is a great feeling.

[James Tauber]

Talk to a State Farm agent today.

[Alan Sisto]

To learn how you can choose to bundle and save with a personal price plan. Like a good neighbor, State Farm is there. Prices are based on rating plans that vary by state. Coverage options are selected by the customer. Customer availability, amount of discounts and savings and eligibility vary by state. Folks, if you're enjoying the Prancing Pony podcast, please consider supporting the show by joining the Fellowship of the Podcast. That's what gives me the time and resources that I need to work on making the show the best that it can be. When you join, you become part of an amazing discord community. It includes live episode recordings, hangouts every month. You also get episode postscripts. You can get an ad, free feed, free merch, and a whole Lot more.

[James Tauber]

You also can become part of our Questions after Nightfall episodes or even join us as a guest in the north wing. So Please go to patreon.com prancingponypod to show your support and join the Fellowship of the Podcast.

[Alan Sisto]

And you can always help us out by giving us a rating and review over on Apple Podcasts and a rating on Spotify. And please recommend us to your friends, James, as we get back into it, let's look at the second teaching of Pengaloth.

[James Tauber]

Yeah. So the other teaching in part three of the peoples of Middle Earth is a single manuscript titled Of Mana I Coimas in Eldaron Maquente Elendil, or what is the Koimas of the Eldar? Asked Elendil. Elfuina, again, being referred to as Elfriend here. And I just want to point out Koimas, which we're going to find out, is the Kuenya word for Lembas. Notice that starts with koi, which is the same word that we saw in Koerea Quenya, the living language.

[Alan Sisto]

The living.

[James Tauber]

Yeah. So it's to do with life.

[Alan Sisto]

Okay.

[James Tauber]

Alan, would you like to read this for us?

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah, I will. Of Lembas, this food the Eldar alone knew how to make. It was made for the comfort of those who had need to go upon a long journey in the wild, or of the hurt whose life was in peril. Only these were permitted to use it. The Eldar did not give it to men, save only to a few whom they loved if they were in great need. This was not done out of greed or jealousy, although at no time in Middle Earth was there great store of this food. But because the Eldar have been commanded to keep this gift in their own power and not to make it common to the dwellers in mortal lands. For it is said that if mortals eat often of this bread, they become weary of their mortality, desiring to abide among the elves, and longing for the fields of Aman to which they cannot come. Okay, I know there's more, but I want to stop there. Right, yeah.

[James Tauber]

Well, I want to talk about that implication at the end. We'll get into the restrictions about who can use it. But that. I find that really fascinating, that if they eat too often of it, they become weary of their mortality and long for Aman.

[Alan Sisto]

My first thought is Frodo, right? My first thought is Frodo having to rely almost exclusively on Lembas for those last few days of his journey, and how that's reflected in his no longer feeling at Home in Middle Earth. Yeah, I. I mean that was exactly what I was. That's why I wanted to stop. Wait a minute, Frodo. That is so interesting because, I mean we've talked a lot about Lembas on the show. We've talked about the letter where Tolkien compares it to viaticum and you know, the idea that it's this way bred sort of like communion that it is and that. But I think he even talks about how it's more effective if one's fasting from everything else. If it becomes the only thing you eat, it's even more potent. And that certainly seems to suggest what we read here, that it does sort of change a person, a mortal at least. That's interesting. Do you see any other signs of that maybe in Lord of the Rings at all?

[James Tauber]

Well, I'm trying to think who, who would have consumed excessive amount.

[Alan Sisto]

I mean, obviously Frodo and Sam would have.

[James Tauber]

Obviously Frodo and Sam. Yeah. Yeah. Although the others did.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah, but. But not often.

[James Tauber]

Yeah, not often. Not often enough. It's interesting that we find out fairly early on that's. I mean, we're told it's not out of greed or jealousy. No, it's the ultimate told. Yeah, exactly. Look, there's side effects.

[Alan Sisto]

Side effects may include.

[James Tauber]

Exactly.

[Alan Sisto]

If you think Lembas is for you, talk to your doctor. Oh man, we could have fun with that one. It also to some way explains. I mean. Well, there's a whole lot of explanations. But it adds another layer to Gollum's rejection of Lembas. Right. I mean, of course he rejected. It's an elf thing and he hates the elves, but he's clinging on to life.

[James Tauber]

Yeah.

[Alan Sisto]

I mean just with, with his fingernails at this point.

[James Tauber]

Yeah.

[Alan Sisto]

So the idea of something that would cause him to become even more weary of his mortality, like. Yeah, I don't think that's something he's interested in, let alone longing for the fields of Amman. Oh, I love the fields of Amman. No, no songs. He Never sings for 500, Alex. All right, continuing with of Lembas. The Eldar say that they first received this food from the Valar in the beginning of their days in the great journey. That meaning the journey from Lake Cuivien and all the way to Valinor. For it was made of a kind of corn. Now I need to break again. Corn does not mean maize. It does not mean the yellow kernel things. It's any grain, any cereal grain. It could have been wheat, it could have been barley. It was made of a kind of Corn which Yavanna brought forth in the fields of Ammon, and some she sent to them by the hand of Orome for their succor upon the long march. Since it came from Yavanna, the queen, or the highest among the elven women of any people, great or small, had the keeping and gift of the Lembas, for which reason she was called Masanie or Besain, the lady or bread Giver. And that is fantastic. Partly because of the tie into, like, Lord and lady in English. And how, you know, it dates back to, you know, the loaf keeper, the loaf giver. It's fantastic. And in the Silmarillion, we're told, and Christopher quotes this in a footnote here, for according to the customs of the Eldalia, the keeping and giving of lembas belonged to the queen alone. In nothing did Melian show greater favor to Turin than in this gift. For the Eldar had never before allowed men to use this way bread, and seldom did so again. I just got to that point in the story of Turin on today's Tolkien times, and it is fantastic when you realize that Belloc's like, hey, I brought this, and turns like, no, thanks. Keep your. Keep your bread. And it's like, man, you do. Let me smack you around the head a little bit. Because he does. In the full version, the Silmarillion version is shortened, but in the full version, oh, if you want anything Elvish, then give back your knowledge, give back your foster, give back all this stuff. And by the way, this wasn't for Melan. This is. This is from me. She gave it to me. I'm letting you have some Turin. Oh, man, Turin. Turin. Anyway, so the first time the elves get to use it on that great journey from Cuivien, and like I said earlier, the first time men get to use it is in the Turin story. Now in Unfinished Tales, the The story of how Tuor comes to Gondolin. Voronwe shares some with Tuor on their journey to Gondolin. The only other time I can think of is when it's given to the fellowship. But I want you to note by whom Christopher points out the etymology of lady and indeed Lord as being related to bread. He says in using the word lady here, my father no doubt had an eye to its origin in Old English, of which the first element is Modern English loaf with changed vowel, and the second a derivative of the stem dig knead, to which do is ultimately related. Compare with Lord from Breadkeeper. I love that. It's just so cool when he makes those real language tie ins. Primary world language tie ins to the stuff that he does in his own languages.

[James Tauber]

Exactly. And of course, it makes sense that it's Galadriel that gives them.

[Alan Sisto]

Of course, it could only be because.

[James Tauber]

She is, as we're told, the queen or the highest. Well, she's the highest among the Elven women of the people of that group.

[Alan Sisto]

She refuses to take the title of queen, but she really is, let's be honest.

[James Tauber]

The text continues. Now, this corn had in it the strong life of Amman, which it could impart to those who had the need and the right to use the bread.

[Alan Sisto]

Now, that's interesting. The right. So somebody stole it. Let's say it's sort of like the palantir, you know, if you didn't have the right to use it, you wouldn't be able to use it. Yeah, not effectively.

[James Tauber]

Yeah. It wouldn't have the strong life of Aman.

[Alan Sisto]

Right.

[James Tauber]

Well, it wouldn't be part of it. It wouldn't impart that strong life of Amman if you didn't have the right to use the bread. Yeah, yeah. It's fascinating.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah.

[James Tauber]

If it was sown at any season, save in frost, it soon sprouted and grew swiftly, though it did not thrive in the shadow of plants of Middle Earth, and would not endure winds that came out of the north while Morgoth dwelt there.

[Alan Sisto]

Wow. Sensitive plant.

[James Tauber]

Yes. Else it needed only a little sunlight to ripen, for it took swiftly and multiplied all the vigor of any light that fell on it. The Eldar grew it in guarded lands and sunlit glades, and they gathered its great golden ears, each one by hand and set no blade of metal to it. The white helm was drawn from the earth. That's the stalk drawn from the earth in like manner and woven into corn leaps or baskets for the storing of the grain. No worm or gnawing beast would touch that gleaming straw and rot and mould and other evils of Middle Earth did not assail it from the ear to the wafer. None were permitted to handle this grain save those Elven women who were called Yavanildi or by the Sindar, the Ivonry, the maidens of Yavanna, and the art of the making of the lembas, which they learned of the valar, was a secret among them and so ever has remained. Lembas is the Sindarin name and comes from the older form, Len MBAs, Journey Bread. In Quenya, it was most often named koi mas, which is life bread. So again we get koi and life.

[Alan Sisto]

Meaning life and the maas, which then would correlate to the MBAs in the Sindarin.

[James Tauber]

Yes. And then it ends. It ends with quente quingoldo, which is. Which is dark folk, quoth Pengala. That marker of the Baleriandic interpolation. Exactly.

[Alan Sisto]

That is fascinating. And as you were reading, there were even more things that jumped to my mind. The idea that one of the things that fuels us, and of course, all plants, are fueled by light, but there's such a symbolism in light to begin with, in Earth with the trees, for instance, that this grain takes and multiplies all the vigor of any light that fell on it. Just feels very reflective of the. The nature and the value of light and the goodness of light.

[James Tauber]

Yes.

[Alan Sisto]

Then just so interesting that. That they take the stalks and use that as the basket because evil things won't touch it.

[James Tauber]

Right.

[Alan Sisto]

So you're not gonna get little creepy crawlies going up the side of the basket because they don't want that stuff. Ah, just interesting. And then, of course, the. The lovely story of the Yava Nili, you know, these. These women that are, you know, this sort of secretive group who, you know, I could give you a recipe for Lemus, but you're not going to be able to make it. Right.

[James Tauber]

I was thinking, Mark, I tell you.

[Alan Sisto]

But.

[James Tauber]

But then I'd have to kill you.

[Alan Sisto]

I'd have to kill you.

[James Tauber]

I like your. Your version's probably a little more.

[Alan Sisto]

I mean, you could. You won't be able to follow the recipe. It's like.

[James Tauber]

Exactly.

[Alan Sisto]

Oh, but that is so rich. And again, we come back to Journey Bread, which certainly. I mean, that's. No wonder Tolkien called it Viaticum. It's the same. Same concept, but, boy, just good stuff. And. Yeah. Quente quingoldo. I was here. Yep. All right. Well, James, before we wrap up, we've got a section we want to talk about here. Why was Pengaloth dropped?

[James Tauber]

Yeah. For someone that was such a significant part of the. The way that the story was transmitted. And I think. I think this may start to give us a hint. Right. Because he's not crucial to any of the stories.

[Alan Sisto]

No, he's not an element in any of the stories themselves, only in.

[James Tauber]

In how we got them.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah.

[James Tauber]

And so I think what it comes down to is Tolkien continuing to evolve his idea of how. How we got the stories.

[Alan Sisto]

That's true. Because we don't read a lot about Elfwina either, for that matter.

[James Tauber]

I mean. Right.

[Alan Sisto]

Elendil, But. Or, I mean, about Arendelle. But it's not the same. Even if it's kind of the same.

[James Tauber]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. And it's. And I. And I suspect that that has a lot to do with it. And in fact, Skull and Hammond do say something about this.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah, that's right. I'm going to go ahead and read from that. Yeah. But the existence of the Elvish loremasters made it impossible for the Elvish traditions to be anything but the truth. Therefore, Tolkien began to stress even more the part that men played in the transmission of the stories and the inevitable confusion that arose over time. He wrote in a note circa 1958, the mythology must actually be a mannish affair. The High Eldar, living and being tutored by the demiurgic beings, must have known, or at least their writers and loremasters must have known the truth. What we have in the Silmarillion, etc, are traditions especially personalized and centered upon actors such as Feanor, handed on by men in Numenor and later in Middle Earth, Arnor and Gondor, but already far back from the first association of the Dunedain and Elf friends with the Eldar in Beleriand, blended and confused with their own mannish myths and cosmic ideas. Another note says, by the way, they point out that that note is in Morgoth's Ring. They go on and say that another note says that the Cosmogonic myths are Numenorean, blending Elven lore with human myth and imagination. And in a note to the Shibboleth of Feanor, which was written in 1968 or later, Tolkien added that the Silmarillion is not an Eldaran title or work. It is a compilation, probably made in Numenor, which includes in prose the four great Tales or Lays of the Heroes of the Atani, of which the Children of Hurin was probably composed already in Beleriand in the First Age, but necessarily is preceded by an account of Feanor and his making of the Silmarils. All, however, are mannish works, and that's for the peoples of Middle Earth. So as he changes, his frame narrative is like, look, if. If this is all Elvish, then it's just the truth, and there's no room to say some say, or to introduce those elements that are interesting and maybe interject some confusion. So we've got to make it a mannish story that combines with Elvish tradition in order to interject this sort of sense of, well, this may not quite be accurate. This might not be a 100% documentary approach to history.

[James Tauber]

Right. He's wanting because. Yeah, exactly. If they're myths, then they've got to have that element of, we don't really know. This has been passed down through many generations. Yeah.

[Alan Sisto]

And some say. And it might be that.

[James Tauber]

Right. Which doesn't work if you're. If they're. Else.

[Alan Sisto]

Yes. If it's a news article written by somebody who was there.

[James Tauber]

Right.

[Alan Sisto]

Who is unbiased and isn't trying. Well, allegedly unbiased, then all of a sudden, you don't have room to turn this into a myth. It just becomes a retelling, an account.

[James Tauber]

Memoirs, almost.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[James Tauber]

Memoirs, yeah.

[Alan Sisto]

That's a lot less interesting than myth.

[James Tauber]

Yeah. It strikes me also as interesting that the suggestion in that last part that you read is that the. The Quintus Silmarillion primarily exists to explain the children of Hurin, the background to the children, which is funnily enough, because that. That's how it started. Right. If you go back, the very first. The sketch of the mythology. Right. The very first version of the Silmarillion that Tolkien wrote was to accompany the children of Hurin to explain the background to it. So it's interesting that it sort of went. Went full circle.

[Alan Sisto]

It sure did, didn't it?

[James Tauber]

And. And Tolkien realized for order this. For this to work.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah.

[James Tauber]

It's got to be Mannish.

[Alan Sisto]

Wow.

[James Tauber]

And therefore it can't be that. And it's got to have come through Numenor. Right. There's this multiple mention of it passing through Numenor and then Gondor. It relates to, you know, our whole discussion about the. The tale of years in the Second Age. Right. Being very much a Gondorian version of the. Of the.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah. The focus on making Gondor and in some cases, Numenor look better than maybe they actually were.

[James Tauber]

Yeah.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah.

[James Tauber]

So. So in light of that, Pengalov doesn't really have a role to play anymore, which is sad.

[Alan Sisto]

It is sad. That's why being historian is. I mean, like, be in the story Pengala, and then you're actually there. Now nobody knows who you are.

[James Tauber]

Exactly. That's the message to historians out there.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah.

[James Tauber]

Make history.

[Alan Sisto]

Make history. All this about Pengalad being dropped because the mythology must actually be a mannish affair. Makes me think of the most mannish of men and the mythology that's grown up around him. James, what does Barlaman have in the bag for us tonight, that most mannish of men?

[James Tauber]

Because when I think of men, I think barley Barlum.

[Alan Sisto]

It's got an insane name.

[James Tauber]

He's Barley Man.

[Alan Sisto]

Barley man, that's right.

[James Tauber]

That sounds like a superhero. Barley man. Well, so very appropriate to our conversation that we just had. Joe from Wisconsin asks, how does Bilbo's translations from the Elvish fit as a source within the frame narrative of ALF winner. Oh, which throws a whole nother.

[Alan Sisto]

It does.

[James Tauber]

Spanner, wrench, whatever.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah.

[James Tauber]

Language we're speaking, language changes. We can put on different clothes, different adornments.

[Alan Sisto]

You should say spanner. And then I can say for our American listeners, you mean wrench.

[James Tauber]

We've got to dress the thought in. In different sounds. Exactly. Yeah. So this is a. This is a fascinating question that I'm. I'm not sure I have the answer to.

[Alan Sisto]

I was gonna say if I. I know I don't. I've always thought the translations from the Elvish have always intrigued me. Like, what. What is it that's included in that? You know, this is sort of what.

[James Tauber]

I wonder, are we correct to assume that that's the source of the Silmarillion, or is that just headcount?

[Alan Sisto]

That's the thing. I think a lot of people, I think it's headcanon. Because if Tolkien is saying this needs to be mannish myth, this needs to come through Numenor and blending Elven lore with human myth, I don't think Bilbo's going to be translating that from Elvish in Rivendell. If he were in Gondor, maybe. And maybe he's translating from Adonaic. Perhaps if you can find some old texts translating from that and giving us the Silmarillion. But if he's translating from the Elvish, I'm wondering if he's translating perhaps the original lays, you know, the Elvish lays that tell the stories of all those things. Or the Baron, the lay of Beren and Luthien, or Luthien, I should say the lay of the children of Hurin and all of those.

[James Tauber]

I mean, and if that's the case, that. Well, no, I still wonder how. We've got a couple of problems here. One is, of course, the published Silmarillion doesn't tell us at all. No, we could. We could only. Only look to what maybe Tolkien was considering later in life. And I don't. I can't think of anything other than the sorts of things we just read that was summarized by Skull and Hammond. I can't think of anything else. We're talking was sort of what Tolkien's late thoughts around the transmission was. I'm trying to think if there's any Late mentions of Elfwinna or is Elfwinder also abandoned if the Silmarillion had been published with Lord of the Rings.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah. Would it have had a frame narrative and what would it have been? Because I know Christopher sort of regrets not including a frame narrative in the published Silmarillion. He talks about that.

[James Tauber]

Right. But he doesn't at all suggest what it would have correct been from a sort of. What the sources were he talks about. It would have been. He likes Sam asking the questions. Yeah, I'd like to hear more about that. But. But none of. Oh, did it come from.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah. Is it Bilbo's translations from the Elvish or is it, you know, Elfwina coming from Pengaloth? Yeah, that is interesting.

[James Tauber]

Yeah.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah. What would it have been had Milton Waldman decided, I'm in. I'm all in, man. Give me the Silmarillion and give me the Lord of the Rings, let's publish it with this other publisher.

[James Tauber]

Well, I mean, that was the period of time when. When Tolkien was making that initial combining of. Of ALF Winner and Pengaloth. Right. Because it was only in the 1930s that ALF winner becomes the translator of the works written by Pengalov. The Wise of Gondolin. Prior to that, you know, Pengalov is not really. Doesn't get much of a mention. One thing we didn't talk about is that there's suggestions that maybe Pengaloth was taking on the role that Gilfanon played in the Book of Lost Tales. I didn't want to get into that here because that's so removed from what we're writing. But would Pengaloth have survived? So it's all Milton waldman's fault.

[Alan Sisto]

It's 1951 that he writes to Milton Waldman. So where was Tolkien in. You're right, because that's not one of his later. I mean, it's his later thoughts when he realizes that it needs to be a mannish thing. I mean, that note to the Shibboleth of Feanor was 1968.

[James Tauber]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. So it's. It's all post Lord of the Rings.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah, it is post Lord of the Rings. So. But you wonder if that's something he would have realized as he was then writing, because 1951, he still hasn't written the Lord of the Rings either. He's just got this, you know, outline of a story. Well, he's written most of it.

[James Tauber]

51. He's written Lord of the Rings. Yeah. Maybe not the appendices. Not.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah, not the Appendices. That's true. I mean, it's not been published, but he's written.

[James Tauber]

It's not published. No.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah, no, but he has written most of it.

[James Tauber]

Yeah.

[Alan Sisto]

It's in various stages. I mean, it's not. It's not in the final stage that we'd recognize it. That's. I think, what I meant. But. But of course, I mean, much of it was written when he was sending letters to Christopher Tolkien when he was stationed in South Africa, even prior to mid-40s.

[James Tauber]

Yeah, in the mid-40s.

[Alan Sisto]

40S. So, yeah, I just want to be real clear about that. I didn't mean to imply that he hadn't written it at all. It wasn't in a form that you and I would have have said, oh, yeah, this is the Lord of the Rings. Yeah. I wonder if, as he did put the finishing touches on it and maybe started to work on the appendices, which, as we've talked about, are very Numenorean and Gondorian focused.

[James Tauber]

Although I have his mind sooner, I have to say. And this will tie into, you know, one of the things we're obviously going to talk about in a few weeks is Appendix E. It would not surprise me if, in Tolkien's mind, Appendix E was a Pengalov.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah, that would make sense.

[James Tauber]

I mean, Appendix A and F are, I think, very, very. Both of them are very Pengaloth. Like, you know, we know that Pengaloth was the one that was going around capturing the. The history of the languages and everything like that. We know he spent time in. In Khazad Dum, where he would have found. Got information about how the Dwarves writing system worked and all that kind of stuff. So I. I imagine there was at some point where Tolkien would have said that Pengalov is the source of. Of Appendix E and F, at least a vnf. Yeah, not the. I don't think the rest necessarily the appendices, but although he still doesn't get a mention, I know. Been really interesting.

[Alan Sisto]

Poor Pengala.

[James Tauber]

Poor Pengala.

[Alan Sisto]

Well, folks, Poor Pengala. That wraps it up for another episode of the Prancing Pony podcast. Join us next week, though, as we welcome several of our patrons to join us and most likely embarrass us in our 31st questions after nightfall episode.

[James Tauber]

I think we're pretty good at embarrassing ourselves.

[Alan Sisto]

I was going to say we do a pretty solid job of that on our own.

[James Tauber]

Exactly.

[Alan Sisto]

We need no help there.

[James Tauber]

No help. Exactly. Although we welcome it if people do want.

[Alan Sisto]

Why not.

[James Tauber]

Do you want to participate? Yes. Of course, Alan and I want to thank the members of Team PPP Editor Jordan Renels, Bar Davis, Social Media Manager Casey Hilsey, Event and Patreon community coordinator Katie McKenna, graphic artist Megan Collins, and website guru Phil Dean.

[Alan Sisto]

And please take a minute to check out the prancingponypodcast.com you're gonna find show notes there, outtakes, Prancing Podcast, Pony Ponderings, as well as our online storefront where you can get PPP merch featuring all the great episode artwork that Megan's been doing for the show since the start of Season seven.

[James Tauber]

You'll also want to visit our library page. The Prancing Pony Podcast is, after all, a podcast about the books. So if you're interested in a book we've mentioned on the show, you'll find a link for it in our library. We do get a small amount of compensation when you make your purchase and we thank you for that.

[Alan Sisto]

Indeed we do. We also want to thank our patrons patrons at the Cairdance contribution tier. I'll start with Demay in Alaska, Chad in Texas, Lance in New Jersey, Joseph in Michigan, Kathy from North Carolina, Carlos in California, Brian in the uk, Jerry from Washington, Joe in Washington, Irwin from the Netherlands, Ben in Minnesota, Anthony in Texas, Zaksu in Illinois, Sarah in New Jersey, Joshua in Massachusetts, Lucy in Texas, Keith in Alabama, Erica in Texas and Bob Vivian in California.

[James Tauber]

There's also James in Massachusetts, Ann in Kentucky, Sean in New Jersey, Mason in California, Maureen from Massachusetts, Olivia in London, Robert in Arizona, Nick in Wisconsin, Lewis in South Carolina, Thomas in Germany, Craig in California, Bailey in Texas, Kevin in Massachusetts, Julie in Washington, Bruce in California, Joe in Maryland, Nathan, Nathan in Arizona and Kevin in Pennsylvania. Thank you all so very much for your support indeed.

[Alan Sisto]

Thank you very much.

[James Tauber]

Now make sure you don't miss any episodes of the Prancing Pony Podcast. Subscribe now through Spotify, Apple Podcasts, Amazon Music, or your favorite podcast app.

[Alan Sisto]

And one last thing. As always, don't forget to send your thoughts, comments and most of all, how you'd restore Pingala to his deserved place in history to Barlaman at the prancing.

[James Tauber]

Po pawneepodcast.com and if you want your voice literally heard, well, just send us audio of your question. Visit podinbox.com prancingponypod and record your question for us. Be sure to still email the question to Barleyman though.

[Alan Sisto]

Now, even though Barliman's been a lot more reliable lately, there is still a lot of mail to sort through. We'll try to get to you just as soon as we're able. As always, though, this has been far too short a time to spend among such excellent and admirable listeners. And with an absolutely poor, tragic historian who's disappeared. But until next time, may you rekindle.

[James Tauber]

Hearts in a world that grows chill. All right, here we go.

[Alan Sisto]

New Phineas and Ferb is here. We're back, baby, for 104 more days. I know what we're gonna do. Today of summer vacation. I am ready for summer shenanigans.

[James Tauber]

Let's do it.

[Alan Sisto]

Oh, yeah. All right. We're gonna fuss Phineas and Ferb once and for all. Are we gonna do this again? New inventions, shenanigans, inators, adventures and songs.

[James Tauber]

Brand new summer vacation.

[Alan Sisto]

New Phineas and Ferb. Starts June 5th on Disney Channel. And next day on Disney plus on disneyplus.disney.com.