376 – Questions After Nightfall 31

Summary

The Prancing Pony Podcast Episode: 376 – Questions After Nightfall 31
Release Date: June 15, 2025

The Prancing Pony Podcast continues its ninth season with host Alan Sisto and a rotating cast of co-hosts delving deep into J.R.R. Tolkien's expansive Middle-earth legendarium. In this episode, "Questions After Nightfall 31," the hosts engage with their dedicated listener community, addressing a variety of intricate and thought-provoking questions about Tolkien's works. Below is a detailed summary of the key discussions, insights, and conclusions from the episode.

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1. The Fate of the Returned Noldor

Question by Marilyn ([04:23])_
Marilyn inquires about the experiences of the Noldor who returned to Valinor, particularly whether penitent Noldor were shunned by the Teleri or interacted with Nienna.

Discussion Highlights:

• Alan Sisto ([05:05]) emphasizes the ambiguity in Tolkien's texts regarding the fate of the returning Noldor. He speculates that while the Vanyar might remain detached, others like Glorfindel chose to return to Middle-earth after being granted new bodies by Manwë.

• Kristen ([05:58]) suggests that interactions between returning Noldor and other Elves could be awkward, especially considering past conflicts like the Kinslaying at Alqualindë.

• James Tauber ([07:36]) raises questions about the choice mechanism for returnees and whether their return was voluntary or influenced by higher powers like Manwë.

• Marilyn ([09:09]) posits that Nienna, the Vala associated with mourning and compassion, might play a crucial role in the reconciliation process for returning Elves.

Notable Quote:
"Conversations in the halls of Mandos are going to be just as awkward as the ones in Valinor itself. Maybe more so." — James Tauber ([08:51])

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2. Desired Additions to Tolkien’s Histories

Question by Marie ([11:32])_
Marie expresses a desire for specific tales or characters from Middle-earth's history to be included in The Silmarillion or The Lord of the Rings.

Discussion Highlights:

• Alan Sisto ([11:56]) mentions his interest in including the tale of Tal Omar from The Peoples of Middle-earth, highlighting its unique perspective and reflection of Tolkien's own views.

• Kristen ([13:03]) laments the omission of Pengalov, a pivotal character in the history of Beleriand, and wonders about Tolkien's possible regrets regarding the Silmarillion's framing narrative.

• Marie ([14:10]) wishes for Tolkien to have included the poetic oath of Fëanor within the published texts, underscoring its emotional and thematic significance.

Notable Quote:
"I mean, it's Tolkien's still wrestling with all of these ideas, but I remembered that because of the language bit..." — Kristen ([20:01])

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3. Understanding Saruman’s “Many Colors”

Question by Andrea ([15:39])_
Andrea seeks clarification on Saruman’s declaration as "Saruman of Many Colors" and his activities as a ring-maker.

Discussion Highlights:

• James Tauber ([16:51]) interprets Saruman's shift from "the White" to "of Many Colors" as a rejection of his original role and purity, signaling ambition and hubris.

• Arthur ([76:14]) humorously connects Saruman’s actions to modern TV shows, drawing parallels between Tolkien's narratives and contemporary storytelling.

• Jim ([91:10]) muses on the governance style of the Dwarves of Moria, likening it to an anarcho-syndicalist commune, spurred by discussions around Saruman’s leadership.

Notable Quote:
"He is openly rejecting that lane. The irony of which means now there's a vacancy for Saruman and the White." — James Tauber ([21:48])

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4. The Role of Humor in Tolkien’s Works

Question by Jim ([29:34])_
Jim explores Tolkien’s use of humor in The Lord of the Rings and The Hobbit, and whether it has been extensively analyzed in scholarly works.

Discussion Highlights:

• James Tauber ([30:37]) references the book Laughter in Middle Earth: Humor in and around The Works of J.R.R. Tolkien, edited by Thomas Honegger and Maureen Mann, as a key resource on the topic.

• Kristen ([33:02]) and James ([36:17]) discuss specific humorous moments, such as Sam’s request for tobacco during the healing in Mordor and Gandalf’s interactions, highlighting how humor serves as a coping mechanism amidst tragedy.

• Arthur ([34:32]) adds that humorous elements also appear subtly in moments involving characters like Tom Bombadil and Goldberry.

Notable Quote:
"The Hobbit's a little different just because the tone...But sometimes you get the really dry humor in there." — James Tauber ([36:41])

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5. The Dagor Dagorath and Its Implications

Question by Chris ([38:28])_
Chris questions the possibility of humans reuniting with Elves during the prophesied Dagor Dagorath, especially focusing on Arwen's fate.

Discussion Highlights:

• James Tauber ([38:57]) clarifies that the Dagor Dagorath, a non-canonical end-of-the-world battle, differs significantly from established Tolkien lore. He notes that Men typically do not return to Middle-earth after death, implying that Arwen would unlikely reunite with her family.

• Marilyn ([43:11]) speculates that Elves might be admitted to the Halls of Men after the destruction of Ea, introducing a theoretical reconciliation post-Dagor Dagorath.

• Arthur ([51:31]) humorously draws parallels between Tolkien’s myths and other fantasy series, illustrating the flexibility in fan interpretations.

Notable Quote:
"It is an interesting one, Chris. But there were so many...versions of the story, some of which may be more like Revelation..." — James Tauber ([40:24])

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6. Clarifying the Maiar's Contributions

Question by Sam ([46:09])_
Sam seeks to understand what the Maiar might have sung into existence during the creation of Arda, aside from the major elements attributed to the Valar.

Discussion Highlights:

• James Tauber ([47:03]) theorizes that Maiar associated with specific Valar likely contributed to detailed aspects of creation, such as Ulmo's waters or Aulë's mountains, acting as assistants or project managers.

• Kristen ([47:38]) compares the Maiar’s roles to junior architects handling specific tasks within a larger project framework.

• James Tauber ([50:04]) notes the lack of explicit textual evidence detailing the Maiar's creative contributions, emphasizing the servants' supportive roles to the Valar.

Notable Quote:
"They are the people of the Valar. They're servants and helpers. They're going to do the tasks assigned to them..." — James Tauber ([48:12])

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7. Debating the Mightiest of Arda: Eonwe vs. Tulkas

Question by Arthur ([64:19])_
Arthur questions whether Eonwe, described as the mightiest in arms, could defeat Tulkas in a hypothetical match.

Discussion Highlights:

• James Tauber ([64:47]) argues that Eonwe, being the most skilled with weapons, would likely overpower Tulkas in a weapon-based combat scenario, whereas Tulkas would excel in hand-to-hand combat like wrestling.

• Arthur ([66:14]) humorously suggests that stereotypes about strong, not-so-bright warriors might have influenced Tolkien’s characterization of Tulkas.

• Jim ([91:10]) adds levity by likening Dwarven leadership to an anarcho-syndicalist system, inspired by Saruman’s governance.

Notable Quote:
"I do have a feeling that to get the Glorfindel answer, we'd have to. It's probably a little too deep for today..." — James Tauber ([05:49])

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8. Female Warriors in Middle-earth

Question by Neil ([57:55])_
Neil asks about the presence of female warriors in Tolkien’s legendarium, aside from notable figures like Éowyn.

Discussion Highlights:

• James Tauber ([58:20]) identifies Haleth as the earliest example of a female warrior and references other potential figures like Idril and instances during slave rebellions where women wielded weapons.

• Kristen ([60:08]) underscores the limited but significant representation of female combatants, noting that while Tolkien’s texts predominantly focus on male heroes, there are instances where women exhibited martial prowess.

• Marie ([59:56]) recalls mentions of women like Beren’s mother, who preferred fighting over refuge, highlighting their bravery.

Notable Quote:
"We have at least the idea of the Eotheod. We have explicitly their foes in the Balchoth." — James Tauber ([85:55])

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9. Numenorean Influence in Gondor's South

Question by Neil ([58:20])_
Neil explores whether regions in southern Gondor are ruled by Numenorean-descended leaders or by locals whose lineage stems from those who remained in Middle-earth post-First Age.

Discussion Highlights:

• James Tauber ([83:57]) analyzes the naming conventions of Gondor’s southern regions, noting a prevalence of Sindarin names that suggest Elvish or ancient origins rather than direct Numenorean descent.

• Kristen ([85:19]) concurs, pointing out that many of these names are pre-Numenorean, indicating that local lineages likely persisted alongside Numenorean influences.

• Marie ([87:39]) speculates on intermarriage between fleeing faithful and local populations, though James emphasizes that official lineages like Dol Amroth trace back directly to Numenor.

Notable Quote:
"They are a twisting of not an independent creation of Melkor, whether their origin is elves or men." — James Tauber ([85:10])

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10. Additional Listener Insights

Additional Questions and Comments:

• Andrea raised concerns about the "Forsaken Inn" mentioned in The Fellowship of the Ring, questioning its significance and why it’s named so.

• Sam followed up on the Union of Elves and Men, seeking clarity on Prince Imrahil and other similar unions, and how they fit into the broader genealogical narrative.

• Jim contemplates humorous governance structures in Middle-earth, inspired by Saruman’s leadership style.

Notable Quotes:

"Let me at him." — James Tauber ([65:13])

"It just goes to show how forward thinking Tolkien was." — Arthur ([76:06])

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Conclusion

In this episode, The Prancing Pony Podcast effectively bridges the gap between Tolkien’s intricate lore and listener curiosity. The hosts provide insightful analyses while maintaining an engaging and conversational tone, enriched with humor and thoughtful speculation. From the nuanced fates of the Noldor to the subtle presence of female warriors and the complexities of Elvish and human unions, the episode offers a comprehensive exploration of Middle-earth’s depths, making it a valuable resource for both seasoned Tolkien enthusiasts and newcomers alike.

Final Notable Quote:
"May you rekindle hearts in a world that grows chill." — Kristen ([94:55])

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This summary aims to encapsulate the essence of Episode 376 of The Prancing Pony Podcast, providing a structured and comprehensive overview for those who haven't listened to the full episode.

Transcript

[Alan Sisto]

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[James Tauber]

But I'm telling you, I had a.

[Alan Sisto]

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[James Tauber]

Going to spell that out for you.

[Alan Sisto]

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[James Tauber]

Hey, Kristen, how's it tracking with Carvana Value Tracker? What else?

[Kristen]

Oh, it's tracking, in fact.

[James Tauber]

Value surge alert. Trucks up 2.5%, vans down 1.7, just as predicted. So we gonna. I don't know, could sell, could hold the power to always know our car's worth. Exhilarating, isn't it?

[Kristen]

Tracking?

[James Tauber]

Always know your car's worth with Carvana Value Tracker. Good evening, little masters, and welcome to episode 376 of the Prancing Pony podcast, where we're getting deep into the details of the appendices to the Lord of the Rings. But for now, it's time to take a break from our studies for some live Q and A. Folks, pull up.

[Kristen]

A bench in the common room and join us. I'm James Tauber, the Sage of the south, and I'm here with the man of the West, Alan Sisto.

[James Tauber]

Folks, join us as we welcome a few of our patrons to join us for our 31st quarterly questions after Nightfall. We've been running these a long time.

[Kristen]

No matter how you got here, you're all welcome here in the common room. Here at the Prancing Pony Podcast, we're reading and talking our way through Middle Earth with plenty of speculation and bad jokes along the way.

[James Tauber]

Especially tonight. With tonight's panel, let me just tell you that we do love our deep dives into the lore, discussing our favorite themes and a whole lot more. But once a quarter, we take a break from our read through and welcome a few of our patrons to join us here in the common room and bring along some of their very best questions.

[Kristen]

Now, we have no idea what they're going to ask us, so as we've done so many times before, we're simply going to do the best job we can in answering their questions with whatever we have on our shelves and in our all too limited brains.

[James Tauber]

Thankfully, I've got a whole lot of ebooks going on. All right, well, as with previous Questions After Nightfall episodes, aside from edits for things like nervous coughs or time spent flipping through pages while we look for an answer, we are going to be presenting this as it was recorded live. Everything you hear in the show will have been recorded during this session. We're not going to go in and give a great answer and record it later, as tempting as that is.

[Kristen]

As tempting as it is exactly. If you'd like to be on one of these sometime, join the Fellowship of the [e-mail] prancingponypod questions after nightfall episodes are recorded once a quarter and patrons at the Elrond's Honorarium, Tier and higher, are invited to join.

[James Tauber]

It's just one of the ways we show our appreciation to those who support the show, giving them the opportunity to join us, visit with us, make us laugh, make us think, and more than often embarrass us in the best possible way. Let's go ahead and get started. James, who is up first?

[Kristen]

Okay, up first we have Marilyn.

[James Tauber]

Marilyn, welcome back.

[Marilyn]

Thank you. It's good to be back. Good evening, everybody. So I'm starting you off with a speculative question just to kind of ease into it for tonight. Other than the heartbreakingly beautiful sentence, Finrod walks with Finnarwin, his father beneath the trees in Eldamar. We hear little else of the experiences of the Noldor who returned to Valinor either through bodily death or through forsaking the March of Feanor after hearing the Prophecy of the North. What do you Suppose it was like, for those who returned. Were the penitent Noldor shunned by the Teleri? Did they spend time with Nienna? I welcome your thoughts.

[James Tauber]

That is a really good question. You're right. We don't get any strong indication of what happens with those who returned or with those who stayed. But of course, you know, it's. The Vanyar are just OMG manway all the time. So, you know, for them it's. It's six of one, half dozen of the other. But what about the others, James? What about the ones who returned? And what about the experience of those who go back get a new body? Because, of course, the ones that go back go back to the Halls of Mandos for a period of time. So after they get their new hroa, they can have a choice. Some of them, like Glorfindel, pop back over to Middle Earth. Others stay there in Valinor. So what are your thoughts?

[Kristen]

I can't imagine it would be entirely comfortable interacting with the other elves. As you said that the Teleri, the Vanyar, whatever, they're like.

[James Tauber]

Yeah, they're locked in, man.

[Kristen]

Exactly. But I can imagine there would be some awkward conversations.

[James Tauber]

Yeah.

[Kristen]

With the delirium especially.

[James Tauber]

That's the thing. I kind of. My hope. My hope is that just as Olweh tried to say to Feanor, you know, it's a friend's job to tell a friend when they're an idiot, I would like to think that there's a little bit of a. Well, I'm glad you recognize you're an idiot, but welcome back. You know, like a little bit of ribbing. And then you're still our brothers, except for the ones that were actually involved in the. The kinslaying or the.

[Kristen]

There's being an idiot and there's killing a family member.

[James Tauber]

That's the thing. I don't think if I was involved. I'm putting myself now in the shoes of a. Of a Feanorian who. Who was all about the kinslaying at Alqualande. And, you know, I took the ships and. Well, I didn't take the ships because those aren't the ones that. That turned back. But, you know, if I was involved in the kinslaying and Mandas himself says, come back. Turn around or you're doomed. I feel like if I had been involved in Kinsling, I would have to double down. I'd have no choice. I don't know. I have a hard time imagining anybody who'd basically drunk the Kool Aid that Hard being convinced to change their minds. On the other hand, the ones that were not involved but had been besotted as if with wine, sober up and say, yeah, you're right, and come back. And I think those, as long as they weren't involved in the kinslaying, I think they're all right.

[Kristen]

Yeah.

[James Tauber]

How does that differ, though, from the ones that die? And do we know if there's a process by which they get to choose to come back? I mean, Glorfindel certainly is an example of one who did. I don't know that we're shown explicitly other characters that do, but is it.

[Kristen]

Really that much of a choice or is it.

[James Tauber]

That's the thing. Yeah. Is it.

[Kristen]

I don't know that the. You know, you're typically given the choice.

[James Tauber]

I think no, Glorfindel will be compelling.

[Kristen]

Compelling reasons.

[James Tauber]

Yeah, that's true.

[Kristen]

Yeah.

[James Tauber]

Glorfindel sort of earned it. So I guess the default then is to get the new body and then return to Valinor.

[Kristen]

But whose idea was it? Was it Glorfindel's idea?

[James Tauber]

Oh, I don't know.

[Kristen]

Was he persuaded to return?

[James Tauber]

Oh, in other words, was it for him? Or was it like, hey, yo, we could really use you out there in Middle Earth and maybe you should go back. Have you thought about going back? I don't know. That's a very good question.

[Kristen]

I don't know if we know the answer to that, but I don't know.

[James Tauber]

That we do either. If it is, it would be buried pretty deep.

[Kristen]

I imagine this is an issue with all sorts of traditions around the afterlife.

[James Tauber]

That's true.

[Kristen]

Meeting people that you maybe didn't particularly get along with or did some nasty.

[James Tauber]

Conversations, Conversations in the halls of Mandos are going to be just as awkward as the ones in Valinor itself. Maybe more so.

[Kristen]

Yeah.

[James Tauber]

Yeah.

[Kristen]

I mean, there's also the sort of awkward conversations of, you know, Elrond showing up and telling Celebrian, armin's not coming.

[James Tauber]

Yeah.

[Kristen]

And that sort of thing. Right. There's those sorts of.

[James Tauber]

That's not the conversation. Poor Elrond is not looking forward to that. Marilyn, you've got something to say on this?

[Marilyn]

Well, I'm just wondering what you all think about the role that Nienna might play.

[Kristen]

That's actually a really good question, because when I was thinking about sort of the broader traditions around the afterlife and so on, and I sort of wondered about this sort of coming to be in a place where you can forgive, where you can accept people that wronged you and I would imagine Nienna would be part of any of that sort of process if it happens amongst the elves. So that actually may turn out to be a really important part of the very important part.

[James Tauber]

I wonder what part Loren might have played before third age 1000. Let's say, you know, what role he might have played in sort of helping to reconcile folks. Yeah, I have a feeling that to get the Glorfindel answer, we'd have to. It's probably a little too deep for today, but we'll look into the Glorfindel writings, the last writings in the peoples of Middle Earth. There's a couple of Glorfindel essays that are in there. I mean, I'm looking here just to kind of give you all a little snippet from this. Glorfindel remained in the Blessed Realm, no doubt at first, by his own choice, Gondolin was destroyed. All his kin had perished and were still in the halls, waiting, unapproachable by the living. But his long sojourn during the last years of the First Age, and at least far into the Second, no doubt was also in accord with the wishes and designs of Manwe. When did he return? This must probably have occurred before the end of the Second Age and the change of the world, after which no living, embodied creature, humane or of lesser kinds, could return from the Blessed Realm, which had been removed from the circles of the world. So that certainly anybody who would have gone there after the Undying Lance had been removed from the circles of the world wouldn't have a choice. They would. They would be stuck.

[Kristen]

Yeah, anyone who died in the Third Age.

[James Tauber]

Well, Arthur in the chat says, except for embodied wizards, of course, the Astari are a class of exception all of their own. That's a fun question to think about, though. You know, the idea that. Yeah, these. These folks are going to maybe have.

[Kristen]

Well, they have meteors. For sending the Istari back.

[James Tauber]

Oh, no, no, no, no. Oh, the Rings of Power reference. I was. That. I was hoping it wouldn't show. Up. Nicely played. That's only in the Second Age when they actually show up canonically, they. They show up on a boat in the Gray Havens because Kieran gives him a ring. Yeah. All right. Thank you, James. All right, who is up next?

[Kristen]

Okay, next we have Marie.

[James Tauber]

Marie, welcome back. Hello.

[Marie]

Okay, so I have a. It's not a speculative legendarium question. It's more of a. What would you like to have seen? So, what one or two things from history of Middle Earth would you have liked to have been included in the sill and. Or the Lord of the Rings.

[James Tauber]

Can I also have them finished at the same time? I would have liked the tale of Tal Omar to be finished and included in the Silmarillion that's found in the peoples of Middle Earth near the very end. And it's a fascinating story. Such a unique perspective for those who've never read it. Just the 32nd version is. It's written from the perspective of a young man who is descended clearly from both native inhabitants of the region and a Numenorean. And then a Numenorean who was captured as a slave, to be clear. And then his awe when he sees the Numenoreans return and the fact that he can understand their language a little bit, that, for him was just a language of dreams. It's a great story and it really reveals a lot about Tolkien's own perspectives on things and certainly highlights the criticism that we have of the Imperial Numenor.

[Kristen]

That's a great choice. I'm going to go a little different. Not necessarily a story, but a character. And this kind of sets up for the next episode of the. Or will it be an episode we've already recorded?

[James Tauber]

It's the episode we will have already recorded, I believe.

[Kristen]

Okay. So people listening to this would have already heard it, but it is the character of Pengalov.

[James Tauber]

Yes.

[Kristen]

Pengalov, who was such a major part of so many of the stories that we get in the history of Middle Earth, completely written out. Even in the Silmarillion, he's not mentioned. Not only in Lord of the Rings, he's not mentioned in the Silmarillion either. Even though he was such a major part of the. The annals of Beleriand. And, and really, he's the major source of all of the material that we have in the Silmarillion, at least at some point.

[James Tauber]

I mean, he's the frame narrative of the Silmarillion. If we. If he'd been.

[Kristen]

Yeah, at some point. And I wonder if, if, you know, Christopher does talk about his regret in not giving the Silmarillion a frame narrative.

[James Tauber]

Yeah.

[Kristen]

And he talks about, you know, the, the. The whole line that Sam gives about wanting to know more about what Gimli's talking about and suggesting that maybe it would have been fun to give that Third Age perspective on the Silmarillion. But I would have loved to have seen more about Pengoloth as the framing story and exactly what he told.

[James Tauber]

I really like that, Marie.

[Marie]

So just to be clear, for my part, I Wish that Christopher had included the actual poetic oath of Feanor in the text of the Silmarillion as opposed to the Version. I mean, there's. It's so powerful.

[Kristen]

Yeah, yeah. Every opportunity I have, when I teach history of Middle Earth, if I'm. If I quote even the smallest part of, like, the flight of the. No dolly or something, I read those lines because. Especially the alliterative verse from Feynor giving his. When he talks about, you know, the ring, you know, my. My jewels. Yeah, that's tough.

[James Tauber]

I mean, because my immediate thoughts were all these other things. But the question that Marie asked was, what was it in history, Middle Earth. Which is why you went with Pengala with what I went with. But, man, I just keep thinking I really wanted to see more about Gondolin or I really wanted, you know, in Unfinished Tales, I want to hear the alliterative verse that A. Orel spoke. You know, we're not given that verse. We're not told what he said. We're just told that he spoke in the form that they had previously. Basically, they were known to speak this way. So he's talking clearly about a literative Old English verse. Just like, please, anymore. I would love to read that. Yeah. That was a great question, Marie. And I think we have one more before we get to the break.

[Kristen]

Yes. Andrea, Hi.

[Andrea]

Thanks for having me on here.

[James Tauber]

Well, it's our pleasure.

[Andrea]

I have a question that, you know, like most of you, I have read the book several times, and I get hung up on one particular passage in the Two Towers. Every time I read it, I feel like I just don't understand it. And when you and Sean did an episode on it a few years ago, I thought, okay, they're going to talk about it. I'm going to understand it. And I still didn't understand it after you did an episode on it. So I don't know if I am just misreading it, but I'd like to kind of hear your input on how I get confused. So this is in the Council of Elrond. Well, actually, that's in the Fellowship. But they're talking about something else. Gandalf is recalling his incident with Saruman. And Saruman says, for I am Saruman the wise Saruman, ring maker, Saruman of many colors. Then Gandalf notices. Yeah, the robe. When the robe moves, what appeared to be white actually is woven of many colors. So what is going on there? Did he try to make rings? Did he actually make rings? And if so, do we know anything about them? What is the Reference to the colors. Like he was the white, Gandalf was gray. What is the many colors? What is that implying? I just don't understand that part.

[James Tauber]

James, I'm going to let you start with this and then I'll see what I can come up with. I mean, I feel like I've got something at the tip of my tongue, but.

[Kristen]

Yeah, I don't know if I have anything to say about the many colors. Certainly the ring maker makes me think, of course of the comment about the lesser rings being mere essays in the craft.

[James Tauber]

Exactly. That's what I was thinking as well.

[Kristen]

Yeah. We know that a lot of more rings were made than the 20, so presumably that continued in some way. And maybe that's part of Saruman's particular interest in ring lore was that he had that continued interest in what the craft was.

[James Tauber]

Yeah, I mean, I. He made a ring. It doesn't mean it had any significant power. It doesn't mean it compares to the 3, or even the 7, or the 9. Certainly can't compete with the 1.

[Kristen]

But why say it? I mean, it's still an interesting question. Why?

[James Tauber]

He'd been studying the. The craft of the enemy. Right? I mean, that was the whole thing. And so he was probably making, you know, attempts at making a ring of power, nothing like the One ring.

[Kristen]

But I, I wonder if that was in. In some respects almost an insult to call someone a ringmaker knowing that they had not achieved the sort of thing that the Gwaithi Mirdain were able to.

[James Tauber]

Yeah, but he referred to it himself. So we do have a number of hands up. So we're gonna let Arthur say something here. What do you have, sir?

[Arthur]

Well, it occurs to me that it is quite possible that no one has attempted to make any kind of rings other than perhaps engagement rings since the fall of Eregion. And this is Saruman's way of saying, hey, it's been 4,000 years. Look how great I am, I made a ring.

[James Tauber]

Yeah, yeah. No, I mean, certainly we don't have any evidence to suggest that more rings have been made since the capture of Erechion. Because of course to do so would be, you know, to invite the Sauron to come try to take it from you.

[Arthur]

It may have been a major issue. No one would have wanted to make a ring. And this is Saruman asserting his independence.

[James Tauber]

That's fair enough as well. All right, Jim, you've got something to add on this. Again, sticking with the ringmaker part, we'll talk about many colors in just a bit.

[Jim]

It occurred to me that in one of the forwards that Tolkien himself wrote when somebody was accusing Lord of the Rings as being an allegory of modern times, they said if we had followed up that allegory, then Saruman would have gone into the wreck of Mordor and used their information to make his own ring. And then he would have contested with whichever of the Lords of the west decided to wield the one ring. So that implies that even in Tolkien's mind, Saruman had some skill at ring making and he might possibly be learned up in the Lord to just fill in a few secret plans from the wreck of Barad Dur to make his own ring. So he was studying the crafts of it. And even Tolkien seemed to think that he might have been making progress, which.

[Kristen]

Actually makes me think he may have been talking about future plans, not necessarily past as well.

[James Tauber]

Well, but he did have a ring because at the council earlier Gandalf says, I rode to the foot of Orthanc and came to the stair of Saruman. And there he met me and led me up to his high chamber. He wore a ring on his finger. So I'm reading that as, as Gandalf laying the the groundwork for Saruman's then subsequent claim to say ringmaker.

[Kristen]

Yep, yep, yep.

[James Tauber]

Yeah. Now how much power that ring has, you know, we don't know, Marilyn.

[Marilyn]

Yeah, I tend to incline with Arthur that I at this stage he might have been thinking about Elven rings and kind of working his way up to the grand finale. But I think the overarching plan for him was to try and find the one ring.

[James Tauber]

Oh yeah, yeah, that's because he'd been.

[Marilyn]

Searching the Gladuin and you know, all that sort of thing.

[James Tauber]

So we know that he had found the chain, right? Yes, because that we later read in Unfinished Tales of the disaster of the garden Fields. When Aragorn returns to Isengard to Orthanc, he finds a little casket and a lockbox basically in a wall safe in Orthanc that, you know, and in there is the chain that had once held the ring. It leads to some uncomfortable questions about what he might have done with the silver's bones, which is a whole other story. But clearly Saruman had found at least that much. And perhaps if he was doing anything with a ring that would have any power, the rings power would be metal detection.

[Marilyn]

Interesting, interesting. Use a ring to find a ring.

[James Tauber]

All right, well, now that we've kind of batted around the idea about the ringmaker, let's talk about the colors thing, James. I feel like That's a little more. More subtle in some ways. And I want to get to what I think is subtle about it. But then there's the obvious part, which is Saruman is done being the white. He's done being the pure. He's done being the leader of the council. He's done with his limited role. He is saying, he is making a claim. I am all of these. I am everything.

[Kristen]

Right. I was thinking he no longer wants to stay in his lane.

[James Tauber]

He's openly. Well, yeah, he hasn't wanted to stay in his lane for a while, but now he's openly rejecting that lane.

[Kristen]

But now he's saying, yeah, I want to spread out.

[James Tauber]

And the irony of which means now there's a vacancy for Sodom and the white.

[Kristen]

Right?

[James Tauber]

So now the white could be assumed by Gandalf. But I think that's the obvious sort of on its face answer. But I'm always put in mind of that line from the heart of man is not compound of lies, but draws some wisdom from the only wise and still recalls him. Though now long estranged, man is not wholly lost nor wholly changed. Disgraced he may be, yet is not dethroned and keeps the rags of lordship. Once he owned his world dominion by creative act, not his to worship. The great artifact man, sub creator, the refracted light through whom is splintered from a single white to many hues and endlessly combined in living shapes that move from mind to mind. Not that I am going to give you the most brilliant analysis of that verse, but the idea of white turning into many colors and then the whole thing about, you know, he who breaks a thing to find out what's in it and, you know, this. All of that brings me back to this phrase every time. And I can't help but think that Tolkien had this in mind, this idea of, you know, what white is made of.

[Kristen]

Right. And so I'm just wondering, though, because in that context it's a positive thing, right? It's.

[James Tauber]

I know. That's the thing I was like.

[Kristen]

And so I'm wondering if that's actually helpful in the Saruman case. Is it that Saruman is not recognizing that he was always. That there's a sense in which he hasn't. He's being too blunt and literal and not realizing that it was always there, that multifacetedness was always there. He didn't need to break up. He always had all colors.

[James Tauber]

He always had.

[Kristen]

That's why he didn't need to.

[James Tauber]

Right.

[Kristen]

Be refracted.

[James Tauber]

I also sort of wonder, you Know, it's, it's this idea of worshiping the great artifact makes me think of just how obsessed Solomon is with the One Ring. And instead of understanding his role even as a sub, sub creator, so to speak, he's trying to go beyond that and, and take more than his share, more than what he has a right to take. But I don't know. Those are my thoughts.

[Kristen]

Yeah. So I think it can go the multicolor thing. I can go two ways. It can either be he wanted something that he was not his right or he failed to recognize something that was already true and sought after.

[James Tauber]

Yeah, exactly, Marilyn.

[Marilyn]

Yeah. The thought that occurred to me first was the multicolors can represent his notion that he can now dominate all the colors so that he can partake of, you know, Radagast the Brown and Gandalf the Gray, all those things together and incorporate them, you know, that sort of both and ish sort of thing, which usually is a good thing in my eyes. But in this case, essentially I think saying I, I got all what you guys have and right.

[James Tauber]

I don't need you anymore, I'm gonna show it.

[Marilyn]

Right, I don't need you. You know, forget this purity thing if that's what it was. I think it was more of a color grade scheme that implied, you know, white is the best, which.

[James Tauber]

Well, right.

[Marilyn]

The leadership kind of gets up my nose somewhat, but for different reasons. Just saying I'm the leader but you're not following me. And so I'm just going to say, look, I've got all your guys power anyway, I can make a ring. And I now possessed of all these different abilities.

[James Tauber]

Either way, it's another one of those great examples of Tolkien leaving as something that's great to discuss, great to think through, might not have an absolutely solid answer, but is certainly generates great discussion. So great question. Now lately I've had a chance to.

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[James Tauber]

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[Alan Sisto]

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[James Tauber]

With Mando, my day kicks off with a refreshing Celsius energy drink, then straight to the gym pre K pickup back home to meal prep time for my fire station shift. One more Celsius. Gotta keep the lights on when the three alarm hits. I'm ready. Celsius Live Fit. Go grab a cold refreshing Celsius at your local retailer or locate [e-mail] soon we'll get back to more questions, but before we do, we want to remind you there is a lot more talk going on at the Prancing Pony Podcast than just us in that that's a good thing.

[Kristen]

The PPP has an amazing listener community. They're always coming up with great questions and discussions across all our social media spaces. Check out our Common room on Facebook, our dedicated subreddit, Twitter and more now.

[James Tauber]

On Facebook, just look for the Prancing Pony Podcast. You're going to follow the page to get the news and episode drops, but you're going to want to join the group to get involved in some great discussions, including with some of the folks that are on tonight's episode.

[Kristen]

You'll definitely want to subscribe to our YouTube channel where we're @prancingpony podcast. Conveniently enough. That's also how you'll find us on Twitter, Instagram, bluesky and Twitch. And if you prefer Reddit, find us there at R prancingponypod.

[James Tauber]

And if you want daily Tolkien content, check out today's Tolkien Times on the PPP YouTube channel and on all your favorite podcast apps. That's my short format daily show with everything from Middle Earth Map Monday to First Stage Fridays. And then there's my new twice weekly streaming of all fun things Middle Earth on the PPP plays. Be sure to check both of those out on the YouTube channel for all the PPP productions at YouTube.com prancingponypod all right, James, who's up next?

[Kristen]

Next up, we have Jim.

[James Tauber]

Jim. Welcome back, sir.

[Jim]

Hey, how you doing? Good to be back. And I've got to tell you, working at the weather surface in these times, I feel kind of like now Bill the pony at the gates of Moria, little uneasy there, so. But I did want to note that it was a really good thing that Bill wasn't a filly, because as a boy pony, he was able to make his escape from that dreadful place. But as they all say, the mayor to Moria.

[James Tauber]

Oh, wow.

[Jim]

Pause for applause. GROANS Da doo doo.

[James Tauber]

Pure brilliance as always, Jim. Great stuff. All right, what. What question do you have?

[Jim]

More of a thought, I guess, is I'm very intrigued by the humor that Tolkien is able to imbue into Lord of the Rings and obviously the Hobbit. And in fact, I think one of the big lacks in the Silmarillion is the lack of that. That humorous viewpoint. That's one of the reasons why it's a little bit drier and harder to get through. My favorite comedic moment in all of Lord of the Rings is actually steeped in great loss and tragedy, which is when Mary is coming to himself in the Houses of Healing and he asks Strider for some tobacco. And then Strider goes on this whole thing about, if you can't find your pack, you must talk to the herb master of this place. So, such a funny, relieving moment in the otherwise often tragic aftermath of the great battle. So I was just wondering, has anybody ever done like a treatise or a book talking about specifically the humor of Tolkien and what are your favorite humorous moments in the whole legendarium?

[James Tauber]

Actually, there is a book. I have not yet read it because I have such a long to read list. The book is called Laughter in Middle Earth Humor in and around The Works of J.R.R. tolkien, edited by Thomas Honegger and Maureen Mann. It's got. Tom Shippey wrote the foreword. I have only read amazing things about it, and I'm looking forward to reading it. But it is still on my to read list because my to read list is terrifyingly long. Lots of great examples, though, of. Of, like, my favorite funny moments. James, I'm good. If I start, I'm going to go and, like, run three or four of them and I might take yours, so I'm going to.

[Kristen]

No, no, no, no, no, no, no, no. You go, you go, you go. Because I'm looking up to get the exact wording of mine.

[James Tauber]

So, okay, you go. And that's the thing. A lot of times the wording is very precise. When one of my favorites didn't make it into the most recent. By most recent, I mean the 1960 whatever, when Tolkien did the second edition of the Lord of the Rings. In the first edition of the Lord of the Rings, Gimli is questioning Aragorn's wisdom as to why he looked in the Palantir. And I don't have the exact quote because I don't have the first edition handy in front of me, but he basically says, what did you tell Sauron? Aragorn's answer is that I have a rebel of a dwarf that I would trade for a perfectly serviceable Orc. What do you think? I said? And I just love that because it's Aragorn having the sort of short temper of Gandalf and letting sort of the Gandalf rub off on him. And he's just had enough of Gimli. And I love that because once again, it's. Tolkien is funny. He is really, really funny. And even when we see stuff in the Silmarillion, it's not as, on its face, funny. Like you said, it does make it a little drier. It's more historical, more mythological, rather than a personal story. But sometimes you get the really dry humor in there. You know, I'm thinking of Cyrus and some of the moments there in the story of Turin. A lot of black humor in that tale as well. But there are. Are so many other moments that come to mind. I still want to give James his.

[Kristen]

Okay, well, so one, One example of the. Of sort of that really dark humor is, of course, Baron.

[James Tauber]

Oh, good.

[Kristen]

Raising his hand and saying, even now it's. It's in my hand.

[James Tauber]

Yeah, here's my hand, dude. I'm telling you. Yeah, I love that.

[Kristen]

But the other one I was thinking of, which is probably not. Not conventional humor, but I was reminded of it because of the whole tobacco thing.

[James Tauber]

Yeah.

[Kristen]

And it's when it's in the Houses of Healing where the herb master enters and says. And it's just the fact that the herb master is showing off his linguistic ability because he says, your lordship asked for kingsfoil, as the rustics name it, he said, or Athelas in the noble tongue. Or those of you who know somewhat of the Valinorian.

[Arthur]

Right.

[Kristen]

He's going through all the different names for it. And Aragorn cuts him off before he can say the Valinor name. He goes, I do. So.

[James Tauber]

Yeah.

[Kristen]

And I care not whether you now say Araneon or Kingsfoil so long as you have some. Exactly cutting when not only cuts him off, shows that he knows exactly what he's talking about. He goes, I know it's a SEO Ranion, but I don't care if you call it that or Kingsfoil, just as long as you got some.

[James Tauber]

Yeah, shut your mouth already. Man. That whole section is filled with some great humor with Gandalf telling Iorith to run as fast as your tongue and go get your woo, man. Good stuff, Arthur.

[Arthur]

Yes, well, first of all, that particular section with the Healing Master along with the Master Namer in the wizard of Earthsea always reminded me of one of my anatomy professors in medical school who had just drone on and on about this is connected to this, is connected to this. But I, but I was thinking one of the ones that always makes me laugh and smile even though it's not overtly funny. When they were in the house of Tom Bombadil and Melchor. I mean, excuse me, Goldberry.

[James Tauber]

Wow, Melkor. Well, that's another conspiracy theory is leaking through Arthur.

[Arthur]

This is another discussion. But when, when she looks at Frodo and says, I can tell you're an Elfriend, the light in your eye and the ring in your voice tell me.

[James Tauber]

Not the ring in your pocket, the ring in your voice. Yes, all right. There's so many good examples. I mean, the Hobbits are great, right? I mean their sense of humor and their ability to maintain it even in the face of just absurd circumstances. I think of Sam coming up with funny things to say in Mordor and he does, you know, and it's just another example of that Hobbit resiliency. It's really great.

[Kristen]

The other thing I was just going to say, just about humor in general is I love the fact that in the handful of interviews that we have of Tolkien himself, he can so immediately transform from being serious and almost angry to being the most jovial light hearted person just in an instant, like within a sentence. And I, and I think that really comes out in the, in the writing as well. And one example I can think is, is when he's talking about not particularly being keen on, on other people, when he says about, you know, forming cults and having people speaking Elvish to one another. Oh yeah, yeah. And he, and he looks quite angry when he's saying, no, I don't desire to go and have afternoon talking Elvish to chaps. And then he immediately says for one thing, of course, Elvish is too complicated. And his eyes Light up. And he's got this big grin on his face. I've never finished making it. And it's that sort of thing he does all the time in these interviews, where he. He goes from serious, almost angry, as.

[James Tauber]

I said, to just certainly a get off my lawn sort of grumpy professor. Right.

[Kristen]

And then immediately switching to a beaming.

[James Tauber]

Smile and making joy and laughter. Exactly.

[Kristen]

Yeah.

[James Tauber]

I love that about him. And it does. You're right. That so clearly shows through in the texts, especially the Lord of the Rings. Yes. Also in the Hobbit, the Hobbit's a little different just because the tone. And so it's. I feel like the humor there. It's funny, I mean, at things like. Thank you very much. And all of that. It's a little more on the nose and it's a little less.

[Kristen]

Say what you did there.

[James Tauber]

Yeah, I do. Thank you for catching that. It's one of those things where sometimes he even telegraphs the jokes ahead of time with the Hobbit, whereas with the Lord of the Rings, a lot of times they hit you out of nowhere and you're completely stunned because it is a time. Like Jim mentioned in the question, here, we're dealing with the tragic aftermath of the battle of the Pollenor Field and Aragorn's pranking Mary about his tobacco. It's great.

[Kristen]

Right?

[James Tauber]

And it's very Tolkien. And honestly, I feel like a lot of that may also be a reflection of his experience in World War I.

[Kristen]

Right, exactly.

[James Tauber]

When you're fighting for your life. But you've got to find that humor.

[Kristen]

It's a coping mechanism.

[James Tauber]

Yeah, it's very much that camaraderie and brotherhood in the. In the fighting and in the stress as well. Arthur, you said something else to add on that real quick.

[Arthur]

Yes. Not that I'm obsessed with humor and Tolkien or anything, but it always struck me one of the very last jokes in the Lord of the Rings kind of sums up the whole spirit of Hobbits. It was purely a Hobbiton joke to refer to it as Sharky's.

[James Tauber]

Sharky's End. That's such a great Hobbit joke. I love it. Yeah. That is fantastic. Great stuff. And a great question, Jim. Thank you for that, because that's just going to give all of us a wonderful opportunity to sort through all those moments. And everybody who listens is going to have their own favorite moment, too. So thanks for that one. James, who do we have up next?

[Kristen]

Okay, next we have Chris.

[James Tauber]

Chris. Welcome, sir.

[Chris]

How's it going? Thanks. For having me.

[James Tauber]

It's going well. It's our pleasure to have you.

[Chris]

I was considering whether I should start with a pun, but you have me following Jim, which is like trying to follow shadow facts at a full sprint.

[Kristen]

Good luck with that.

[James Tauber]

Right? Exactly. Yeah.

[Chris]

So I'll refrain and I'll just ask my question.

[James Tauber]

Question.

[Chris]

You've spoken about the Dagor Dagger ATH a few times on the podcast, and I know that's not entirely canon, but, you know, and we don't look at the bones, but it's. It's relatively reminiscent of the book of Revelation. And I'm sure that for Tolkien as a Catholic, that was pretty relevant. My question for you is, in the version of events where the Dagor Dagorath happens, do you think that humans that have died get to be reunited with the elves? And specifically, do you think Arwen gets to see her family again?

[James Tauber]

Ooh. Oh, I'm not going to like my answers to this question. That is a good question, Chris. I mean, the Dago Daggerath is. It is a non canonical thing because it never was. It didn't even get published in the Silmarillion. And for those who aren't familiar with the idea, the concept, the dagger, Daggeraths, it's a name. It's a Sindarin name. Simply means the battle of all battles. And it's the last battle. It's the end of things, the apocalypse. This is the thing, if you've ever heard about Turin showing up and, and killing Morgoth, this is when it's supposedly going to happen. But there were different versions of the story, different versions of the end, some of which, you know, may be more like you said, Chris, at least touched by the idea of Revelation, but probably more so by the idea of Ragnarok and some of the other myths and legends across the world. But I think it's fairly clear that with men, they literally, after they die, they may have a little bus stop at the Halls of Mandos, and then they catch the next ship out of the world. I don't think they come back. Which means that sadly, Arwen would not get to be reunited with her family. I think they're all gone. The only question is, what happens to the elves after that? Because their life is the life of Arda. So what happens when Arda is destroyed and then remade? That I don't know. James, do you have any thoughts, certainly, on the question as asked. But then also, anything on the dagger Daggera?

[Kristen]

I mean, not really. This is one of the things that on some of these questions were explicitly told. No one knows. Of all the things that we're told, we don't know. I really, really do not know.

[James Tauber]

Yeah, it's an interesting one. There were so many different changes in it. And I'm looking at some of the compilation of the various changes, you know, after Christopher Tolkien goes through the various versions. The ones that are in the earliest Silmarillion, the Quinta. No, Dorinwa, the Annals of Amon, the later Quinta, Silmarillion, and they're all slightly different. And I. The one later in the later Quinta, which was written in 1958, does have some interesting changes. Obviously, Turin comes back from the dead, strives with Morgoth, and.

[Kristen]

Which is fascinating in itself.

[James Tauber]

Yeah, that's pretty amazing, the fact that it's Turin because he is a man, but on his right hand is Aonwe, and on his left is. No, I'm sorry, it's Tulkas that was going to strive with Morgoth. Turin was on the left, Eonwe was on the right. And it was the Black Sword of Turin that would deal Morgoth's death blow. And then Feanor was going to break his. His Silmarils and rekindle the two trees. The great light would come forth, the mountains would be leveled, and the light would go all around the world. World. So there are all sorts of really cool ideas in here, but it's clear that this second prophecy of Mandos, which is also what it's known, is sort of, kind of incompatible with a lot of what else we do have in canon. And there was a note about the end of the world that Tolkien wrote that I believe was in the Atrabeth. The elves expected the end of Arda to be catastrophic. The end of Arda is not, of course, the same thing as the end of Ea. And for those who are trying to remember the differences, Arda is the Earth, the globe, the planet. Ea is existence, the universe. About this they held that nothing could be known except that Ea was ultimately finite. It is noteworthy that the elves had no myths or legends dealing with the end of the world. The myth that appears at the end of the Silmarillion is of Numenorean origin, clearly made by men, though men acquainted with Elvish tradition. So that end of the world story is a mannish story, according to that. But that's the thing. It's so many various.

[Kristen]

Like when that's in the afterbath.

[James Tauber]

Did you say that's in the afterbath? So that would have been. Oh, when did he write that?

[Kristen]

Well, so late 50s, right? Yeah, yeah, yeah. So at that stage, he. This is part of the theory of why Pengaloth gets written out. Is that Tolkien. Well, one theory is that he had decided that all of the. All of the stories were of Mannish origin.

[James Tauber]

Yeah, yeah. Which is why Pengal got written out. You're right.

[Kristen]

Well, that's one. One possibility. Yeah.

[Arthur]

All right.

[James Tauber]

Well, we do have a couple folks who want to pipe in here. I know I've got some more things I want to think through on this, but. Marilyn, what do you have?

[Marilyn]

Well, it just occurs to me that it might be that the elves would be admitted to the Halls of Humans after the death of Ea.

[James Tauber]

Oh, after the death of Ea rather than the death of Arda.

[Arthur]

Yeah.

[Marilyn]

Because, you know, Artigo's the Elves go is sort of the general thought, I think.

[James Tauber]

Yeah.

[Marilyn]

That. That we have. But that doesn't say anything about the perpetuity of humans.

[James Tauber]

No, it's not.

[Marilyn]

It's quite possible perhaps, that that's one solution.

[James Tauber]

That is indeed. Arthur, you've got something.

[Arthur]

Yeah. And I. I have to admit I am not as versed in some of the scriptural references as perhaps others are, but when I read the. Several of the versions of the story, what I saw was that the Cimaros got broken and new light came up and it went around the world, but the world was still there. I didn't necessarily read it as the world being destroyed. So it's still a. It's still Arda. Arda's got better lighting now.

[Kristen]

Right.

[Arthur]

But. But it's still. It's still the world, and that way. It doesn't. There's not. And the elves are still stuck there.

[James Tauber]

Right. Yeah. And that's fair. I mean, that's. If this is not the remaking of Arda, then we're good there. Trying to remember some other things. Jim, you've got something to say?

[Jim]

Just that the dwarves believe that they're going to help Aule to rebuild the world after the last battle. So there is something afterwards.

[James Tauber]

There will be something to do after to help Aule with the reconstruction efforts.

[Jim]

I suppose it'll take them that long to gather all the Mithril to rebuild the gates of Minas Tirith.

[James Tauber]

James, I'm remembering one other quote. I'm going to see if I can find it real quick. It's because I just came across it recently when I was talking about languages, and it was specifically about Manish tongues. There is a piece in the Peoples of Middle Earth. And it's an article that even I struggle trying to work my way through. It's the problem of Ross.

[Kristen]

Right, okay. Yep, yep.

[James Tauber]

So you know what I'm talking about. But there's a. There's a line in there that says that the language of the folk of Haleth was not used, for they had perished and would not rise again, nor would their tongue be heard again. Unless the prophecy of Andreth the Wise Woman should prove true, that Turin, in the last battle, should return from the dead, and before he left the circles of the world forever, should challenge the Great dragon of Morgoth and Calagon the Black and deal him the Deathstroke. So who's he going to kill? He's going to kill somebody, right? And a Calagon, apparently. You know, so it's, again, Tolkien's still wrestling with all of these ideas, but I remembered that because of the language bit, and that the only way we're going to hear that language spoken again is if Turin comes back, which is interesting to hear that that's what he would speak. But, yeah, yep. All right, great question. A really insightful one, or one that, you know, generates a lot of. A lot of insight and discussion. Thank you, Chris. James, who do we have up next?

[Kristen]

Next up we have Sam.

[James Tauber]

Sam, welcome and thanks for your patience. Oh, no, happy to be here. In the beginning of the Silmarillions, when they're talking about the creation of the universe through the Ainur, we learn some of the things that were sung into existence. Manwe, the air, omo, the water, etc. But really all we hear is about the Valar. What do you think the Maiar sung.

[Marie]

Into existence, keeping in mind that in.

[James Tauber]

The eyes of Iluvatar, some were related and that Gandalf calls Radagast his cousin. Oh, I'd forgotten about that. You're right. Oh, that's a good question.

[Kristen]

It's complicated because the division didn't exist in the early version. No, the Maiar came much later.

[James Tauber]

Not the characters that we know as Maiar, but the idea that they were Maiar, that they were a different bridge.

[Kristen]

But there were two levels of the Ainur. Yeah, yeah. I don't know. I always imagined, as a composer who's worked through some of. Thinking through how this would work musically. I've often imagined that the Maiar that were associated with the particular Valar would have just been involved in some component of whatever they was responsible for. So, in other words, even though Ulmo might have been overall responsible for water, that there Would have been numerous aspects to that.

[James Tauber]

Yeah.

[Kristen]

And that the Mayar could have potentially been involved in. In sort of not carving out. That's the wrong metaphor. But, you know, singing out. Singing into existence certain aspects of the water on In Ada.

[James Tauber]

Sort of as the. As the Vala would be doing, the grand plans and the overall scheme of whatever area of creation, they're taking charge of their Maiar people, because that's how the Mayar work is. They're all people of a particular Vala. Yeah, they just work as like, almost their assistants or their, you know. Project managers.

[Kristen]

Yeah, exactly. Well, like an architect might, you know, give a junior architect the job of can you work out the electrical plans or can you work out, you know, this particular aspect of the building? Yeah, that's sort of how I've always envisaged it. I don't have any textual evidence for that.

[James Tauber]

No, but that makes sense, I mean, given what they are.

[Kristen]

Right.

[James Tauber]

I mean, when we read about the Maiar, that is to say, once the Maiar are a thing, and those characters who we now know as Maiar are identified as such, in the Silmarillion, the published version, we read that they are. With the Valar came other spirits whose being also began before the world. So they're certainly of the same. Of the same order as the Valar, but of less degree. They are the people of the Valar. They're servants and helpers. So, of course they're servants and helpers. They're going to do the tasks assigned to them by their Vala leaders, if you will. The thing is, we just don't know much about them. Right. I mean, even the Silmarillion is very vague, saying their number's not known to the elves. Few have names. The Maiar have seldom appeared in form visible to elves and men. So, you know, it's, I guess, another example of how the boss always gets the credit. So, you know, but that would make the most sense to me, and I don't. Like you said, I don't think there's any specific textual evidence of that. I mean, even the other Valar, many of the other Valar weren't necessarily creators, you know, you think about. I mean, what did Nienna make, right? What did. What did Irmo make? He makes dreams, if you want to say that. But, you know, that's. It's not a construction. Like Aule made the mountains and Ulmo made the seas, and Manwe makes the winds, and, you know, Varda makes the stars.

[Kristen]

I mean, the Ainura are all inclusive, right? There are no Valar or Maiar that are not Ainur, Correct?

[James Tauber]

Correct.

[Kristen]

So they were all involved in some way in singing.

[James Tauber]

Yeah.

[Kristen]

Into existence. They may not have had obviously recognizable items to create, elements to create.

[James Tauber]

I wonder how much of their creation though came into play maybe after the singing and in the actual construction of.

[Kristen]

Well, that's another big thing that shifted between versions of the Ina Lindelay. Right. How did the music directly create it? Or was it just a vision that then they had to actually act on to?

[James Tauber]

Yeah, that's the thing.

[Kristen]

I mean, certainly talking changes the finished.

[James Tauber]

Text suggests that it's a thing they now have to make a reality of. And in that case, then you can pretty much rest assured that each of the Valar are going to be giving their tasks to some of their people, to some of the Maiar. I wish there was a clearer answer to that, Sam. It's a really good question. I suppose we could come up with one or two things that are like headcanon. What cool thing would Aonwe have made, for instance? But yeah, I don't think we really have any, any answers to provide other than just the general idea that they would have followed their, their respective Valar. I mean, it's even the same for the bad guys. I mean the Valaraokar and the, the, the Maiar that followed Melkor and did their bidding as well. Good question though. Very good question. Thank you, James. Who do we have up next?

[Kristen]

Next up we have Arthur.

[James Tauber]

Wait, we have Jim and Arthur in the same episode. The pun world is going to explode. Arthur.

[Arthur]

And allow me to say, muahahahaha. Thanks for letting me back this time.

[James Tauber]

You're welcome.

[Arthur]

I've saved up a few since last time. I don't doubt you my first question, and it may touch on a certain TV show, although not directly. We read in the Rings of Power in the Third Age that at the Battle of the Moranon, all things were divided. All creatures and the dwarves fought for Sauron, although not, not the House of.

[James Tauber]

Not the House of Durin.

[Arthur]

Not the House of Durin. And I usually look at that and think, okay, they're talking about how a lot of people fought for the bad guys. But I've always wondered, and I don't know if it'll appear in a, in a season finale of a certain TV show, whether we could would see Orcs, trolls and maybe the odd dragon or Balrog fighting on the side of Gil, Galad and Elendil because all peoples and all things were divided. Doesn't that Mean that some of the bad guys were fighting for the good guys.

[Kristen]

That's certainly the implication of the text in my reading.

[James Tauber]

Let me take a look at the actual text. I'll look one second. Talking about the army. The last alliance from Imlogis. They crossed the Misty Mountains by many passes and marched down the river Anduin. And so came at last upon the host of Sauron on Dagorlad the battle plane which lies before the gate of the Black Land. All living things were divided in that day. And some of every kind, even of beasts and birds were found in either host, save the elves. Only they alone were undivided and followed Gil Galad. Of the dwarves, few fought upon either side but the kindred of Duran of Moria fought against Sauron. The only thing that would give me pause on that to say yes, Arthur, I think you're right. Is the example some of every kind even of be. Oh, well, except it's even of beasts and birds.

[Kristen]

Even birds. Yeah, exactly.

[James Tauber]

That suggests it's more than beasts and birds. I think you're right, Arthur. I think we have to.

[Kristen]

That's my rating of it.

[James Tauber]

I think we have to suspect that a few are Orcs, a couple of trolls. I don't know about the dragons because I. I tend to think they wouldn't have fought at all. Just kind of like the Dwarves. Like we're not showing up, we're not interested. I can see the dragons being like, what's in it for me? I. I don't. You know, they're. They're very independent.

[Kristen]

Well, you brought up a certain TV show and of course there was a scene in that where there was an. There were a bunch of orcs that were kind of. Why are we even putting up with this?

[James Tauber]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Kristen]

So they already have touched on this idea of. Of orcs that aren't happy with their loss in life.

[James Tauber]

All living things. They are living things. I mean, that's the thing. We can't. Even if they're not. Ah. I mean, I was trying to see if I could find a reason to have an exception to this.

[Kristen]

Well, that would be the only thing if you could. If you argued that the. The orcs were lesser in the chain of being even than birds and beasts.

[James Tauber]

But.

[Kristen]

And I'm not sure he makes it.

[James Tauber]

Pretty clear that they're not. I mean, you know, they are. They are a twisting of not an independent creation of Melkor, whether their origin is elves or men. I mean, you know, because that was a thing that Tolkien never really settled on. So in that Case. They're certainly living things. We know that. Tolkien makes it very clear. They reproduce like every other living thing. So they're alive. They're sentient beings. That's clear. They speak language. They have, say, culture, but their culture consists of graffiti on fallen statues. But, you know, they have something. Yeah, they're. The argument there is a pretty reasonable one, that the elves are the only species to be solely on one side. Mm, interesting. Chris, you've got something to add to this.

[Chris]

I mean, on the topic of orcs, I think it calls to mind Shagrat and Gore Bag and their conversation.

[James Tauber]

Right.

[Chris]

Of, you know, how do we get somewhere with no bosses? Right. And I think to me that implies that. Exactly. They are maybe terrified of Soren to the point of following him, but they have desire to potentially do something different.

[James Tauber]

Exactly, Arthur.

[Arthur]

And in fact, I was thinking about that when I was watching that certain TV show where we see that some of the bad guys are conflicted. And I had wondered whether, even though it's in this book and not in that book, they still have access, whether they had this in mind and whether they're building up to something interesting with some of these characters because of that line there.

[James Tauber]

Well, they would certainly be able to read this. They just can't quote it. They can't do something that's out of this without. Without permission. But, yeah, that would be an interesting idea. Can you imagine seeing a troll, you know, fighting on the side of good? I don't know. But yeah, certainly a plain reading of the text is you're right. And I can't believe I never thought about that. All living things, some of every kind.

[Kristen]

It makes a point. It makes a very, very explicit point to say the elves are the only. Well, first of all, it makes it clear that we're talking about everything, birds and beasts included.

[James Tauber]

Yeah.

[Kristen]

And secondly, the elves were the only ones.

[James Tauber]

Yeah.

[Kristen]

So for the avoidance of doubt, it's very clear here that every other category had people on both sides.

[James Tauber]

Some of every kind were found in either host. So Ents, huorns, eagles. That's a terrifying thought. I can't imagine eagles of man way that any of them would fought on the other side. Maybe they just didn't fight.

[Kristen]

But maybe not all eagles are of manway.

[James Tauber]

That's true. Yeah. Well, the giant eagles. Right. The actual. Right, right, right. The big ones that are like 737 sized. Yeah.

[Kristen]

Yes.

[James Tauber]

All right. That is a challenging question as usual, Arthur. You ask something that makes me look at the text and go, wait a minute, scratch My head. What does that say again? All right, Jim, you've got a follow up on this.

[Jim]

Well, you're remarking about eagles fighting on the side of the bad guys. Just reminded me of a scene I saw out here in Eastern Shore, Maryland, a little while ago. I saw a bunch of vultures, buzzards who were feeding. And as I drove past, they scattered and there was a bald eagle amongst them also feeding on whatever side of the road. So I was thinking, you're falling into bad company here, aren't you, Mr. Bald Eagle?

[James Tauber]

It could be. That's definitely. Yeah, the bald eagle. Like you're slumming it, man. What are you hanging out with these guys for? All right, that was a good question, James.

[Alan Sisto]

I think we have one more here.

[James Tauber]

In the first round before we get to round two.

[Kristen]

We certainly do. The one and only.

[James Tauber]

Neil. Neil. Welcome, sir.

[Neil]

I know it's great to hear all these questions. So my question is, with the exception of Eowyn and the shield maidens of the. The Rohirrim, are there any female warriors in the legendarium? And for completeness, this is females actually wielding weapons as opposed to, say, leading an army. For example, Gladriel leads an army to clear Dol Gul Dur during the War of the Ring. But did she personally fight?

[James Tauber]

Good question. I know there's some examples. I'm. I know that first stage. Yeah, I'm trying to think first stage, Haleth.

[Kristen]

And that's what I'm thinking.

[James Tauber]

And her people definitely fought. So obviously Haleth is the first one that comes to mind. I was also thinking, though, when you mentioned the Rohirrim, my mind went back to their predecessors, their ancestors, the Eotheod. Not necessarily that we have explicit examples of them fighting, but we are told that they have stories of the valiant men and women. And so it's valiant as opposed to some other trait. And that to me speaks to at least a few of them wielding weapons. But there was another example in the side of the bad guys, the ones that they were fighting during the slave rebellion. We learned that the women of that. Of those people, which was the. Well, it wasn't the Easterlings. James, do you remember the name of the. I think it was this, the Balcoff. Right. The women of those people also wielded weapons that they fought. And that specifically is given as an example. So we have at least the idea of the Eotheod. We have explicitly their foes in the Balchoth. We have explicitly the Rohirrim and Haleth and her people.

[Marie]

Marie, I believe it says that Beren's mother had a heart that would rather have stayed by her husband and fought rather than refugee to Brethm.

[James Tauber]

That's a good point. I do believe that's. That's right. I can't recall the exact quote. I'd have to pull that up, but I'll try to find that. Actually, while we're discussing the other. Other aspects of the answer. Neil, you've got a follow up as well.

[Neil]

The. Certainly the elves in the First Age, the Noldor, when they return over Hel to Barand. Yes, I. I can't recall any there, but I. I always wonder whether they were equally fighting against the forces of Morgoth. It's just not mentioned because of the. The way that the text was not written and published by the professor.

[Kristen]

Yeah, it's hard. It's hard to imagine they wouldn't have under the circumstances. And that. That the first Battle of Valerian in particular.

[James Tauber]

Yeah, I'm trying to think. I'm almost sure we have other examples, but my mind is thinking that it's more like suggestions, hints, clues. The idea that we have of the Eotheod, the strong and valiant people, men and women, specifically mentioning both. So those are the ones that come to mind. It's a good question though, and it's going to make me want to dig a little deeper. That might be something where I actually do go back at a later time and flesh that answer out. Not that I'm going to change what comes out in this recording, but it might be the kind of thing follow up on a. Like on a postscript or something at some point. Certainly Jim mentions in the chat Princess Idril at the fall of Gondolin definitely is also fighting to protect her son and to escape. I'm trying to think of other examples. Are there any in the. In the Scouring of the Shire, are there any women hobbits that fight that are named as such? I don't believe so.

[Kristen]

I don't think so, no.

[James Tauber]

And they do seem to have a tendency to sort of tell the women to go back to the house and hide. You know, you think of Farmer Cotton telling Rosie, go back. You know, get your mom and go. You know, go back to the farmhouse. So I don't think we see that there. Now you could say that Lobelia wields an umbrella much like a woman would wield a weapon. And she is feisty as can be. And I would actually, I would argue we have an example of a hobbit woman wielding a weapon. It's Just an umbrella.

[Kristen]

Yeah, for sure.

[James Tauber]

It's a great question though, Neil. Well, we're going to get to the second round of questions, at least a partial second round in just a little bit. This episode is brought to you by ebay. We all have that piece, the one that's so you. You've basically become known for it. And if you don't yet fashionistas, you'll.

[Kristen]

Find it on ebay.

[James Tauber]

That Miu Miu red leather bomber, the Cousteau Barcelona cowboy top, or that Patagonia fleece in the 2017 colorway. All these finds are all on ebay, along with millions of more main character pieces backed by authenticity guaranteed. Ebay is the place for pre loved and vintage fashion. Ebay things people love With a Venmo debit card, you can Venmo more than just your friends. You can use your balance in so many ways. You can Venmo everything. Need gas? You can Venmo this. How about snacks? You can Venmo that. Your favorite band's merch? You can Venmo this. Or their next show. You can Venmo that. Visit Venmo Me Debit to learn more. The Venmo MasterCard is issued by the Bancorp bank and a pursuant to license. My MasterCard International Inc. Card may be used everywhere. MasterCard is accepted. Venmo purchase restrictions apply. Folks, if you enjoy the show, please consider supporting the PPP by joining the Fellowship of the Podcast. It's what gives me the ability to work on making the show better every year. And when you join, you get the best discord community around. That includes live episode recordings, hangouts every month. You also get episode postscripts, ad free episodes, free merch, and more.

[Kristen]

You can also become part of our Questions after Nightfall episodes or even join us as a guest in the North Wing. So Please go to patreon.com prancingponypod to show your support and join the Fellowship of the Podcast.

[James Tauber]

And folks, you can always help us out by giving us a rating and review on Apple Podcasts and a rating on Spotify. And please do recommend us to your friends. Well, James, we've got time for at least a partial second round. So James, who leads off this second round?

[Kristen]

Okay, next round starts with Arthur.

[Arthur]

Arthur, yes, we know that Yanwei was described as the mightiest in arms of all in Arda. We know that at the battle at the end of the First Age, he took down Morgoth, although Morgoth was a little weakened at that point. But since he's the mightiest in all of Arda. It makes me wonder, if there was a match, could he take Tulkas?

[James Tauber]

Well, that's the thing. It depends on the fight, right? Aon Way is the most skilled with weapons. He's the most skilled martial fighter, whereas Tulkas is the strongest and most skilled wrestler. So if, if you're telling me that you're going to give them each some sort of a weapon, I'm telling you right now, I'm putting my money on Aon Way. But if it's a bare hand brawl and grappling and stuff, I'm taking Tulkas every time, right?

[Kristen]

Tulkas has the grip strength.

[James Tauber]

Yeah, Tulkas is definitely the guy you don't want to get in the ring with. Eonwe is the guy you don't want to get on a battlefield with. I mean, I'd actually frankly like to avoid both of them in either circumstance. But, you know, I'm just a middle aged softy, so I don't want any part of that. Yeah, but Eonwe is whose might in arms is surpassed by none in Arda. So you give him a sword, you give him a halberd, you give him a dagger. I don't care what you give him, nobody's going to be able to match him. But Tulkas, on the other hand, can wrestle anybody to the ground. Good question, though. I like it because you're actually getting to talk about my favorite Vala and one of my favorite My Heart. So I think Tulkas gets a sort of a bad rap. I've always feel like people like, oh, you know my favorites. You know, it's either Manwe or Ulmo nine times out of 10. Or maybe it's Varda, but you know, I'm sorry, Tulkas is pretty dang impressive. The guy, the guy wrestles Morgoth, wraps a chain around him and drags him off to prison. I mean, and then when he still knows how to follow the rules, right? He's the guy who, when Morgoth's going by, he's got his fists clenched. He's like, let me at him.

[Neil]

Let me at him.

[James Tauber]

Yeah. Anyway, Arthur, what do you got?

[Arthur]

Just a quick follow up on that. We always hear that Tulkas is mighty, but you don't go to him for advice. And there's a stereotype about the big, strong, not super bright guy. And I don't really want to go there, but I wonder if that's what Tolkien was getting at.

[James Tauber]

I wouldn't be surprised if he was thinking of, like, particular rugby players that he'd had experience with when he came up with the idea of Tolkien. That wouldn't shock me at all. All right, James, who do we have up next in the second round?

[Kristen]

Okay, next is Marie.

[James Tauber]

Marie.

[Marie]

All right, so more thinking cap time. So sorry.

[James Tauber]

Oh, great stuff. I love it. No, no, apologies too.

[Neil]

I love this.

[Marie]

All right, so I know that you're gonna dive real deep with Aldarin and Arendus with Sara, but I have a speculation question. One of the things that has always annoyed me about Arrandus is that she gives up. She goes and pouts in the country. She could have been a Queen regent of Numenor with Aldarian running around doing, you know, his sailing thing and running off to Middle Earth. She could have totally ruled Numenor in his name.

[James Tauber]

Oh, yeah.

[Marie]

And what do you think? I. I think it would have made for a more divided island for sure. But what do you think the effect of that would have been? Obviously, I think Tar Al Kalame would have been a better queen, for one thing. She would have had a better example.

[James Tauber]

Well, yeah, I mean, Taran Kalame, she was. She was kind of doomed to be really. It's going to be a hard reign for her. I mean, growing up the way she grew up, in bitterness and anger and. And really being abandoned by one parent and then practically being abandoned by the other is. Is heartbreaking. What she went through. You're right. You know, Horrendous. Essentially gave up. If she had stayed and been like the regent, ruling during his time away, during his journeys.

[Kristen]

What could have changed, though?

[James Tauber]

Yeah, that's the thing. Because most of his voyages were during their betrothal.

[Kristen]

But I mean, it wouldn't have changed his journeys.

[James Tauber]

No, it wouldn't change his journeys at all. And I'm trying to think his longest journeys were all prior to the. Prior to the two of them getting married. All right, so they were married in 871. By then, he'd gone on all but two of his voyages.

[Kristen]

Right.

[James Tauber]

So he was only going to be gone on two more. There's one when their daughter is young, he voyages on Hiralande. That trip goes from 877 to 882. That's the one when he brings back the letter for his dad. That's the really important one, historically.

[Kristen]

Yep.

[James Tauber]

And then actually he did go on several more, now that I think about it, during the years that he. After he became king, he went. Kept traveling from 883 off and on for the next century. So, yeah, I don't know. It wouldn't have changed any of those. Would it have changed the way Numenor was ruled in his absence?

[Kristen]

Well, that's what I'm thinking. I don't know that many of the sort of changes that were happening in Numenor happened at that point.

[James Tauber]

No, I mean, it's not as though we were dealing with the king's men and the faithful being separate factions at this point. They were all still, in theory, faithful.

[Kristen]

Because this was still early on. Right. We're only sort of essentially a third of the way in.

[James Tauber]

We're before second age, 1,000 still. I mean, he passes away.

[Kristen]

Even a quarter of the way through.

[James Tauber]

Yeah, yeah. So we're well early in the time period of Numenor, so there's no split there. The only thing I can of think see it doing would be helping Ancalame prepare more for her reign and maybe in a way helping to tie together the island, you know, the people of the island under the pair of them, as opposed to just, oh, our king, who's off on the boat again. But I don't know that that would have made much difference because they weren't a very split kingdom yet. You know, they were still very on the same page. I think the only. The. The big help would have been Taron Calameh. Let's be honest. That's probably the only help. But that would have been significant because her reign was problematic and led to some other issues down the road. Yeah, that's such a tragic story. And I am planning on spending probably 10 or 12 episodes covering that with Sara next season.

[Kristen]

Okay. So I guess there's one possibility. So I'm just looking through all of the, tying the timelines to who is ruling when. The only thing I can think of is that. So we're told, circa 1000. Sauron, alarmed by the growing power of the Numenoreans, chose Mordor as a land to make into a stronghold. And he begins the building of the Barad Dur. Right. That happens circa 1000 because he's worried about the growing power of the Numenoreans. Tar Eldarian was the ruler in circa 1000.

[James Tauber]

Yeah.

[Kristen]

So the only thing I can think of is that had there been a different ruler at that time, maybe Sauron would not have been as alarmed by the growing power of the Numenoreans and built the Baradur, which is actually a major thing. Right. I mean, you could. You could imagine a situation where for whatever reason, whatever scared Sauron about what the Numenoreans were doing. If that had not happened, the implication.

[James Tauber]

Is he would have happened later, though, wouldn't it?

[Kristen]

Well, this is the reason given for why he went to Mordor and built the barrel. It's the Numenoreans. It wasn't the elves. No, it was the Numenoreans that he was. He still thought he could probably convince the elves with rings. Right?

[James Tauber]

Yeah.

[Kristen]

The Numenoreans were who he was always worried about.

[James Tauber]

Yeah, and for good reason.

[Kristen]

And. But it's interesting that it was during Eldarion's rule that we were told he was alarmed by the growing power. So had things been different in such a way that Sauron was not alarmed by that growing power, it could have actually turned out quite differently.

[James Tauber]

But how much of that would have been if Horrendous hadn't given up and then she was sitting as regent during Aldarian's.

[Kristen]

We don't know. I guess we don't know enough about what the growing power of the Numenoreans was. Yeah, they'd already been sending. They'd already been sending ships to the coast, although they had not started making permanent havens yet. That didn't happen until 1200.

[James Tauber]

That's correct.

[Kristen]

So they're just making visits and, you know, there's obviously exploitation going on at that point. It wasn't.

[James Tauber]

Well, they did try the harbor, Right, Didn't. Didn't he? He tried building a harbor and it got demolished a couple times. Yeah, but, yeah, that was Londire.

[Kristen]

Yeah. Yeah, the early versions of that. Yes.

[James Tauber]

Yeah. Vignolande. Yeah. And then you're right, you know, circuit 1000. Yeah, he. Since he didn't die until 1098, it was very much his. His reign and the establishment and expansion of Numenorean power that had Sauron running scared. But I don't know that that would have been changed if Irendus had stayed.

[Kristen]

No, I'm not saying it was.

[James Tauber]

I was just.

[Kristen]

I was wondering what are the possible change. Like, had there been a massive. A big change in Numenoreans foreign policy at that time could have made a difference.

[James Tauber]

Yeah, it would have been interesting. Like maybe he builds. Maybe he builds something some other place, you know?

[Kristen]

Right.

[James Tauber]

Maybe he just decides, oh, that Google door twice.

[Kristen]

Yeah, maybe, maybe, maybe.

[James Tauber]

Interesting. That's a good question, though. I mean, certainly there's gonna be a lot of time spent on Horrendous next season. All right, James, who's up next?

[Kristen]

Okay, next up we have Andrea.

[James Tauber]

Andrea, what do you have for us in round two?

[Andrea]

Okay. I have what's hopefully going to be a short and sweet one, one of another spot in my annual rereads of the Lord of the Rings that I come across. And I just kind of pause on it for a minute. And it's one of Tolkien's famous textual ruins that he just drops and, like, never looks back, never brings it up again. I'm always. I feel stuck on it. Like, I just wish I knew more. And this is when Strider refers to the Forsaken Inn, which is a day's journey, I think, east of Bree. First of all, that's terrible marketing. I mean, who calls their place of business the Forsaken Inn?

[James Tauber]

The Forsaken Inn.

[Andrea]

Why would you call your place of business that? And who ran it? Is it still open? Who did it Search? Why did they put it there? I've just always been fascinated. But thinking about this inn just out there, because it's another two weeks to Rivendell. So there's the Forsaken Inn and nothing. So what's up with that? What do y' all think about that?

[James Tauber]

I wonder if it's called the Forsaken Inn because by the time that Aragorn's talking about it, it is an abandoned building.

[Kristen]

That's my assumption. Yeah.

[James Tauber]

You know, in fact, there's a. In the History of the Hobbit, there's. And I'll have to get the actual text out, but I remember reading that Thorne and company found a deserted building where they camped, and it might have very well been that they camped near where the Forsaken Inn was. That was already forsaken, even in 2941. But if not, my hunch is that it was already forsaken by 3019, for sure.

[Andrea]

The way they have it capitalized in the text, as if. Oh, yeah, you know, the Green Dragon, the Prancing Pony and the Forsaken Inn sounds like an unofficial name of a place, I think.

[Kristen]

Yeah, I suspect it's more just. That's what people refer to it as. Because it's been abandoned.

[James Tauber]

Yeah, because it's.

[Kristen]

It's presumably somewhat of a milestone if you're going to make that journey. It's kind of.

[James Tauber]

It is a milestone. Right. I mean, that's Strider's point is, I don't know if the road is ever measured in miles beyond the Forsaken Inn.

[Kristen]

Right. That's just the last.

[James Tauber]

The last settlement, last marker. It's.

[Kristen]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[James Tauber]

It's the. It's Zizzy road on the 15 before you get to Nevada. It's the last thing you know, anybody who's ever been on that forsaken road will know what I'm talking about, Arthur.

[Arthur]

Yeah, it just goes to show how forward thinking Tolkien was. It's clearly the place where the bad guys from the Wheel of Time hung out.

[James Tauber]

Oh, wow. The crossover nobody thought we needed. Thank you, Arthur. Good one. It's a fair question. I like that. Of course, for me, when you mentioned Forsaken Inn, my mind just goes to Lord of the Rings online, where it's actually not forsaken, and, you know, there are people there and you get to have their quests out of there and things like that. I do love Lord of the Rings online, and I'll give that a shout out as my favorite adaptation of any of them. But, James, who's up next?

[Kristen]

Sam is up next.

[James Tauber]

Sam. So I've always been confused about the union of Elves and men. We know there's three big ones, but I still don't understand what's going on with Prince Emeril. Yes, that is a good one. Is it just. That's your question. And we get to. If you could clear that up, I'd be. That's great. Yeah, no problem. Happy to. I wasn't sure if you had, like, a specific one you wanted us to answer or if you just want to kind of talk about broadly the idea of, Wait a minute, what's going on? If there is a union, why isn't it included with the other third? Why isn't that. Yeah, why is that?

[Kristen]

Have you got it handy, Allan, to bring up the exact wording? Yeah, it's worth checking that exact.

[James Tauber]

And we're talking about. That's in the letters, isn't it, where Tolkien talks about the three units?

[Kristen]

No, no, it's. It's in the appendices. There's a. He may also talk about in the letters, but in the appendices, there is the line about the three. But I want to make sure we get exactly the right wording about what there were three of.

[James Tauber]

Yeah. All right. So the text that we're talking about here is in appendix A1, actually portion one. Under the Numenorean kings, there were three unions of the Eldar and the Edain, Luthien and Beren, Idril and Tuor, Arwen and Aragorn. By the last, the long sundered branches of the half Elven were reunited and their line was restored.

[Kristen]

So it's specifically Eldar and Edain.

[James Tauber]

Eldar and Edain. So that leaves out any men that are not Edain. And it leaves out any elves that are not Eldar, for instance, in Ivari. So what do you think, James?

[Kristen]

Because Legolas recognizes that he has Elven blood, Right?

[James Tauber]

Right. Recognize that Emrahil is Elven. Pretty easy. Because he has no beard. Because, as we know, anybody with even a drop of Elvish blood would have no facial hair. Aragorn, Denethorpe, Boromir, Faramir.

[Kristen]

Right.

[James Tauber]

All right. So the whole line of the princes of Dol Amroth is said to have had the Elvish blood enter that line through the marriage of Imrazor the Numenorean, and Mithrelas the Silvan elf. Now, Imrazor is definitely an Edain because he was known as Imrazor the Numenorean. He was a Gondorian man. So there's no doubt about that. Mithrelas was a Silvan elf.

[Kristen]

Yep.

[James Tauber]

So that means she was descended from the Nandor.

[Kristen]

Yes.

[James Tauber]

Which were originally part of the Teleri. Yes, but that would still make her Eldar. She's not Avari. You know, in fairness, they became a scattered folk, hardly distinguishable from the Avari.

[Kristen]

Right.

[James Tauber]

This is one that I've always sort of just glossed over this. But, like. Yeah, whatever. I mean, you know, we know what he means, but we don't. I mean, three unions. Those are the three historically important unions of men and elves. But tell that to the princes of Dol Amroth, because Imidrazor and Mithrelis is historically important to them. Arthur, you want to throw something in there for us?

[Arthur]

Yeah. That's what I always thought, was that those were the three that the historians cared about and that the Noldor cared about because of their role in First Age and Third Age. Kind of like Elrond had a kid, and then there were the two other guys, but nobody talked about them. They talked about the other one. So there. I feel certain that there were other pairings, but they didn't make the history books.

[James Tauber]

Yeah. Certainly an idea, Marie.

[Marie]

Okay, so as a Sylvan Elf, I don't think they were accounted among the Calico. That's the Light of the Trees, Right?

[James Tauber]

Well, right. They weren't Elves of the Light, but they were still Eldar, because I started.

[Kristen]

The big division is there's two divisions, right. Which one saw the Light, but there's also. Which one started on the journey? And they definitely started on the journey.

[James Tauber]

Yeah, The. The Teleri started on the journey and then eventually branched off.

[Kristen]

Either got scared by the Misty Mountains or like. Like the forests and rivers. Too much.

[James Tauber]

Yeah.

[Marie]

I always thought the Eldar was more the. The three main kindreds of the Vanyar, the Noldor and the Teleri.

[James Tauber]

Well, and that's the thing. She's descended from the Tellery.

[Kristen]

Yeah.

[James Tauber]

Sylvan are a subset of the Tellary. So that's the challenge that we're dealing with here. I do have a letter that I'll look to in just a moment, but, Jim, you've got something to add to this.

[Jim]

Well, don't forget that it was said by the hobbits that what the ancestor took took a fairy wife.

[James Tauber]

A fairy wife. So now we've got a Hobbit elf marriage as well. I'm going to chalk that one up to, you know, Hobbit myth. I'm going to go ahead and look at a letter here. This is a letter written in 1954. It is letter number 153. It's a draft to Peter Hastings, and he's talking about the idea of. Of reincarnation and things. And he says that. I suppose that actually the chief difficulties I've involved myself in are scientific and biological, which worry me just as much as the theological and metaphysical. Though you do not seem to mind them so much. Much. Elves and men are evidently, in biological terms, one race, or they could not breed and produce fertile offspring, even as a rare event. There are two cases only in my legends of such unions, and they emerge in the descendants of Arendelle. Then there's a footnote to that. One would expect three cases. Right. There were three unions of the Eldar. That's literally it. That doesn't even mention. It's. It's like there's three in the text. Tolkien says there's two, but nobody says there's four. So I don't know if there's anything that we can point to other than just historically important. You know, I mean, that's really what we're looking at here. There would have been others, certainly. There would have been between the Avari and men, either Edain or otherwise.

[Kristen]

Right.

[James Tauber]

I can't imagine there being one with a non Edain man and an Eldar woman. That. I can't.

[Kristen]

That's going too far.

[James Tauber]

It is. I can't imagine that an elf descended from one of those three would, you know, would wed a man who wasn't a human, who was not part of the Edain. So. But certainly, you know, non Edain and Avari, along with Edain and Avari, could wed and have children.

[Arthur]

Arthur, do we know for a fact that gone Burdhi Khan had a beard.

[James Tauber]

Scraggly little bits of hair. They didn't get a lot of facial hair. I don't think that means they had Elvish blood.

[Arthur]

Okay, there you go.

[James Tauber]

All right, I'm just going to leave that one right there. All right, James? And who else do we have here in the second round?

[Kristen]

Last but not least, we have Neil. Again.

[James Tauber]

Neil, welcome back. Again.

[Neil]

So the Prince of Dol Amroth is of Numenorean descent, but are there any other areas in Gondor south that the White Mountains and west of the River Anduin ruled by those of Numenorean descent in the same way that the Normans ruled over the Anglo Saxons in England after 1066? Or do they have rulers whose lineage is from those who remained in Middle Earth after the end of the First Age?

[James Tauber]

Interesting. So we're talking about all the other, like, the fiefdoms that send their people there to Minas Tirith, for instance, the ones who are listed in that chapter.

[Neil]

And that's actually where the question came from, is there's all those various names. And, you know, we've just discussed that. Prince Emrahil. But actually, are they all from the original men, or were any of them. I say, was it a bit like when the Normans came over to England and sort of decided we're in charge?

[James Tauber]

That's a very good question, actually. I think if I go Back to episode 268, where we looked at the arrival of many of those people, that is to say, the soldiers, so not so much the refugees leaving out, but.

[Kristen]

The arrival of the soldiers and their captains in particular.

[James Tauber]

And their captains. We get some names, and I think the names will help us. So let's see. I'm taking a look here. All right, so we've got Dervoren, son of the Lord, and the men of the Ringlo Valley. Devoren. That's going to be a Sindarin name, isn't it? Dervor.

[Kristen]

How's that spelled?

[James Tauber]

D E R V O R I.

[Kristen]

N. Yeah, that sounds more Sindarin than.

[James Tauber]

Yeah, that sounds.

[Kristen]

Sound Adonaic.

[James Tauber]

Yeah, that doesn't sound Adonaic. Same with. Well, then we got Duin here and Duilin and Derifin.

[Kristen]

They all sound either Sindarin or even, you know, Old English related.

[James Tauber]

Yeah, I was gonna say Dunhir sounds possibly, but it's.

[Kristen]

Oh, that could be Cinder.

[James Tauber]

It's Duin here. Yeah, it's Riverwood, actually.

[Kristen]

Yeah, yeah.

[James Tauber]

Duin. Yeah. Like Anduin. Duin here. Duilin. Derrifin River.

[Kristen]

Yeah.

[James Tauber]

Then we get Golazgil, the Lord, leading the men from the Anfalas. We get an unnamed. Well, we get a group of people who don't even have a captain or lord coming from lamedon. We get 100 fishermen from the Ethyr, again not with a named leader. Hirluwen the Fair, from Pinath Gelin. So that's another Sindarin name. Imrahil, the Prince of Dol Amroth, which.

[Kristen]

Is an Adonaic name.

[James Tauber]

Which is. Yeah. And then we get the other regions, we don't get any names of the people themselves, just the lands. So interesting. We do get a lot of Sindarin names.

[Kristen]

Yeah. Or Westron at best. And certainly not Adonai. Yeah. I don't think there's any evidence of.

[James Tauber]

Anyone else having Numenorean, not in leadership positions. I mean, I do see some of these, like the physical descriptions of some of these people, like the Grim Hillman, for instance, the name Lamedon, which the unfinished index actually says is another pre Numenorean name. So that's an interesting one. So that suggests that maybe these are descended from peoples who were originally in the land before Gondor was established.

[Kristen]

Right. So not Edain, presumably.

[James Tauber]

That whole idea of a pre Numenorean name, folks, we see that a little less with the people, certainly, but we see it in the names of some of the Beacon Hills. I think two or three of them at least are said to be pre Numenorean names. And so when you have a pre Numenorean name, the suggestion here is that perhaps this is, you know, an older culture. But even the physical description, they don't sound like the same kind of tall, gray eyed, dark haired men of Dol Amroth. You know, there's definitely a difference in the way they appear. Interesting. Yeah. I feel like by this point, of course, there would have been a lot of, you know, a lot of intermarriage and things like that. But I do suspect that at least for those men, they're arriving without a leader, you know, descended from Gondor, from Numenor. Well, Gondor from Numenor, Right? Yeah, yeah, yeah, from Numenor.

[Kristen]

Particularly Numenor.

[James Tauber]

But yes, particularly Numenor. You're right, that's a very good point. Excellent. Well, that's a really good question, Marie. You said you wanted to add something to that.

[Marie]

Didn't Elendil and, and the faithful, the Lords of Andunier, start sending people like the faithful to Middle Earth to help them escape I thought that was something I read, but maybe I'm wrong, but I feel like there would have been migration.

[James Tauber]

The faithful were allowed to leave as long as they didn't come back.

[Marie]

Right.

[James Tauber]

So I know that was true.

[Marie]

So maybe some of them settled in that southern area, intermarried.

[James Tauber]

Well, I think the idea of Dol Amroth wasn't. James, wasn't Dolamroth established prior to the fall of Numenor?

[Kristen]

Yes.

[James Tauber]

Yeah. So we know that their heritage traces all the way back in that regard to Numenor pre fall, the line of Dolamroth. That is hard question. Good one though, Neil. I also like the way you compared that though to the Normans and the Anglo Saxons, because you knew that would get to me. Norman invasion, James, I don't think we have anybody officially in queue, but there are a few more who haven't asked and I think we do have one more question at least. Time for one more question.

[Chris]

Chris might have been asked on Questions after Nightfall before, but I think it's maybe a good time to refresh it. Alan, you've had so many incredible co hosts, guests over the years. Who's one that you just haven't been able to nail down. Like, who's somebody you're really hoping that you can have come on the show.

[James Tauber]

As a, as a guest or as a co host.

[Chris]

Can you give me one of each?

[James Tauber]

Okay. As a guest. We've. We've had some incredible folks on the show. I mean, you know, we've had Tom Shippy and Verland Flieger on and I don't know that there's anybody who's going to be able to top them. That is to say, there's nobody alive who would be able to top them. There was a time where we dreamt of one day having Christopher Tolkien. It would never have happened. Okay. I don't think that would ever have happened in a million years. But that was always like, wouldn't that be nice? Right? That was always our, like, wouldn't that be wonderful thing. But as far as a guest now, honestly, I'd actually like to spend some time diving into the world of the adaptations and I would love to have Sir Peter Jackson on the show to talk about, around the time of the 25th anniversary, the films to talk about his contribution to the Tolkien fandom and creating an adaptation that, you know, absolutely blew the doors open on the fandom. I think that would be wonderful. As for a guest co host, I'm going to say one of our guests who I have absolutely Enjoyed having multiple times. I would love to have like a three or four episode run with Dr. Brett Devereaux.

[Kristen]

I was going to say he's just.

[James Tauber]

So good, so entertaining, so much fun and knows his stuff inside and out that if he ever wanted to come on for a run through again, it would have to be a run through some set of episodes that are very battle heavy. It would absolutely thrill my heart to have him on. Those would be names that come to my mind. Jim, looks like we've got time for one more.

[Jim]

This is very quick. Just when I was listening to the most recent episode of Prancing Pony podcast, you talked about how when Celebrimbor was distributing the rings to the dwarves and how going out to the leaders, it immediately put me into mind of a quote saying, listen, strange elf lords lying in Regia distributing rings is no basis for a system of government.

[James Tauber]

And indeed it is not. And of course I love that.

[Jim]

Probably a bad way to choose your leaders.

[James Tauber]

So I'm wondering now if the Dwarves of Moria were really just an anarcho syndicalist commune sort of taking it turns to be an executive of the week. Durin, I am your king. Why'd you become king?

[Kristen]

I didn't vote for you.

[James Tauber]

Oh man, that's good stuff. I love that. On that note, folks, wraps it up for another episode of the Prancing Pony podcast. But be sure to join James and me again next week when we get back to the appendices as we spend an entire episode figuring out what our wall calendar will look like in the Shire. So jazzed for the calendar episode.

[Kristen]

Exactly. It's going to be, it's going to be fascinating.

[James Tauber]

I really will. I wasn't being sarcastic just in case you're thinking I'm. I'm actually over top.

[Kristen]

I know you're not being sarcastic, but I'm just hoping that people listening are sort of thinking, I'm reassuring them that.

[James Tauber]

This, it really will be good. Folks, if you were with us in season one and you remember the sort of dread that Sean and I approached Chapter 14 of the Silmarillion with the map chapter, how are we going to turn that into an audio episode of a podcast? That turned out to be one of my favorite episodes that season. It was absolutely fantastic. It's a fantastic. This is the same thing. We're taking something that's, that's visual and we're going to turn it into a podcast. And hopefully you all enjoy that. So come back next week for sure.

[Kristen]

Absolutely. Alan and I want to thank the members of Team PPP Editor Jordan Reynnels Barleyman, Becca Davis, Social Media Manager Casey Hilsey, Event and Patreon community coordinator Katie McKenna, graphic artist Megan Collins, and website guru Phil Dean.

[James Tauber]

And please take a minute to check out the prancingponypodcast.com that's where you'll find show notes, outtakes, Prancing Pony ponderings, and our online storefront where you can get PPP merch, including the all new episode art for Megan.

[Kristen]

You'll also want to visit our library page. The Prancing Pony Podcast is, after all, a podcast about the books. So if you're interested in a book we've mentioned on the show, you'll find a link for it in our library. We do get a small amount of compensation when you make your purchase and we thank you for that.

[James Tauber]

Indeed we do. We also want to thank our patrons at the Kirdin Contribution Tier. I'll start with Demay in Alaska, Chad in Texas, Lance in New Jersey, Joseph in Michigan, Kathy from North Carolina, Carlos in California, Brian in the uk, Jerry from Washington, Joe in Washington, Irwin from the Netherlands, Ben in Minnesota, Anthony in Texas, Zaksu in Illinois, Sarah in New Jersey, Joshua in Massachusetts, Lucy in Texas, Keith in Alabama, Erica in Texas and Vivian in California.

[Kristen]

This also James in Massachusetts, Ann in Kentucky, Sean in New Jersey, Mason in California, Maureen from Massachusetts, Olivia in London, Robert in Arizona, Nick in Wisconsin, Lewis in South Carolina, Thomas in Germany, Craig in California, Bailey in Texas, Kevin in Massachusetts, Julie in Washington, Bruce in California, Joe in Maryland, Nathan in Arizona and Kevin in Pennsylvania. Thank you all so very much for your support indeed.

[James Tauber]

Thank you very much.

[Kristen]

Now make sure you don't miss any episodes of the Prancing Pony Podcast. Subscribe now through Spotify, Apple Podcasts, Amazon Music, or your favorite podcast app.

[James Tauber]

And one last thing. As always, don't forget to send your thoughts, comments, and most of all, your really difficult questions to bartleman@the prancingponypodcast.com and.

[Kristen]

If you want your voice literally heard, well, just send us audio of your question, visit podinbox.com prancingponypod and record your question for us. Please be sure to still email the question to Barleyman.

[James Tauber]

Even though Barliman's been a lot more reliable lately, there's still a lot of mail to sort through. We'll try to get to you just as soon as we're able. As always, though, this has been far too short a time to spend among such excellent and admirable listeners.

[Kristen]

But until next time, May you rekindle hearts in a world that grows chill.

[James Tauber]

It.