382 – We Are Those Fans: a Chat with Wētā Workshop

Summary

The Prancing Pony Podcast

Episode 382 – "We Are Those Fans: a Chat with Wētā Workshop"

Aired: September 21, 2025

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Episode Overview

The Prancing Pony Podcast opens its 10th season with a deep dive into the creative world of Wētā Workshop. Host Alan Sisto and returning co-host Sean Marchese are joined by two of Wētā's leading artists: designer and chronicler Daniel Falconer, and sculptor/model-maker Leonard Ellis. The episode explores how Wētā brings Tolkien’s Middle-earth to life on screen and in collectible form, spanning stories from their own fandom origins, the creative process behind iconic designs, deep dives into recent collectibles (including the latest for War of the Rohirrim), and tales of navigating the balance between reverence for Tolkien’s vision and artistic interpretation. The conversation is filled with behind-the-scenes insights, self-effacing humor, and a palpable love for all things Tolkien.

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1. Guests' Tolkien Journeys

(03:32 – 06:59)

Leonard Ellis' Introduction to Tolkien

• Came to Tolkien in his late teens, somewhat by accident when a co-worker mentioned Lord of the Rings (mistakenly thinking it was like Lord of the Flies).
• Became hooked after requesting the books for his birthday.
• Fond memories of a coworker who was excited to discuss Gandalf but didn't spoil anything.

“I was hella confused... anyway, I went and researched into it... put the Lord of the Rings on my birthday list and I was hooked ever since.” — Leonard Ellis (04:22)

Daniel Falconer's Tolkien Origin

• Childhood memory of being captivated by the Bakshi animated film posters, long before he could actually see the movie.
• Read The Hobbit at age 9 or 10, then received his mother’s battered copy of The Lord of the Rings.
• The vivid imagery in Tolkien’s world became a life-long inspiration.

“It was the imagery of Middle Earth, the imagination, the imagined world that drew me in. And that's kind of what's kept me there ever since.” — Daniel Falconer (06:34)

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2. Joining Wētā Workshop: Paths to a Dream Job

(07:13 – 16:46)

Daniel Falconer's Path

• Studied design and illustration, with a goal to work in film/TV as a concept artist.
• Landed a work experience placement on Hercules/Xena sets, which led to meeting Wētā founder Richard Taylor.
• Serendipity: invited by Richard to "hang out" at Wētā, just before Lord of the Rings began production. Has been there since.

“If the Lord of the Rings ever happened again as a live action feature, that perhaps I'd be lucky enough to find my way into it. How incredibly fortunate then that I happened to be here right before it kicked off.”— Daniel Falconer (10:43)

Leonard Ellis' Story

• Was a prolific member of the Shadow and Flame forum, which led to his sculptures being noticed by Richard Taylor via Greg Broadmoor.
• Invited for work experience during the height of The Hobbit's production and got to sculpt Boromir as his first collectible.
• Joined Wētā permanently after bringing down his work—“Coincidentally” found himself in Wellington soon after.

“Collectibles is what I wanted to do, and I've been really fortunate to pretty much stay almost exclusively in the collectibles world of Weta Workshop.” — Leonard Ellis (14:14)

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3. Fandom and Collecting as a Calling

(16:46 – 18:03)

• Daniel discusses Richard Taylor’s idea to obtain a license and make collectibles as a way for the creative team to remain immersed in Middle-earth.
• The collectibles division allowed authentic movie-based products, appealing to their own inner fans and connecting to fan communities globally.

“We all consider ourselves fans and collectors, first and foremost... Collecting is a way of directly interfacing with those worlds.” — Daniel Falconer (16:45)

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4. The Design Process & Film Adaptations

(17:30 – 29:05)

Pressure & Process on Lord of the Rings

• Daniel describes the anxiety and responsibility of being young unknowns tasked with bringing Tolkien to the big screen.
• His "three masters": Peter Jackson (director’s vision), Tolkien’s spirit/text, and the fan community (including himself).
• The iterative process: presenting multiple designs for each character/item, balancing historical realism with fantasy, and refining based on director feedback.

“We just all threw ourselves at it. I always thought in my head that I had three masters.” — Daniel Falconer (18:03)

Influence of Alan Lee & John Howe

• Peter Jackson’s decision to add veteran artists like Alan Lee & John Howe to the team was pivotal, blending fresh and seasoned perspectives.
• Their mentorship provided cohesion and authenticity.

“I owe them a huge amount and I learned so much from both of them and others on the project as well.” — Daniel Falconer (24:55)

Balancing Inspiration

• Daniel shares how they started grounded and “human” (hobbits relatable to the audience), gradually introducing fantasy elements as the world expanded.
• Historical research (e.g., Vikings for Rohirrim) was more important than referencing previous fantasy films.

“Peter would give us his feedback on that, basically design by design... We don't want to hit our audience over the head with the fantastical right at the beginning.” — Daniel Falconer (25:52)

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5. Collectibles: Processes, Challenges & Joy

(34:39 – 55:09, 70:04 – 91:47)

Radagast’s Collectibles & The Love of Clutter

• Radagast received a series of collectibles, including a statue and an environment piece of his house (Rosgobel), and even his hat.
• These pieces celebrate Sylvester McCoy’s performance and offer fans an alternative wizard.

“Radagast is just a... favorite. Of course everyone loved Sylvester McCoy... permeated through to his Radagast portrayal.” — Leonard Ellis (34:56)

• Clutter and lived-in spaces are central to the storytelling of both films and collectibles. Radagast’s chaotic home is a fan favorite because of its warmth and relatability.

“Part of the challenge with that one, of course, was that the reference—because obviously our primary goal is to try and replicate something from the film.” — Leonard Ellis (37:33)

On Reference & Research

• The design process involves sleuthing through archives, old photos, and even discovering new details decades after the films were made.

“I liken it to archaeology sometimes... We're nearly 30 years on from it now... and yet there are still details that pop up and little surprises.” — Daniel Falconer (48:51)

• Attention to tiny details is driven both by fan expectations and the creators’ own perfectionism.

Notable Quotes on Collecting

“If something's wrong, tell us... it's a relationship and, we all ultimately want to create the most beautiful and joyful vision of Middle Earth that we can all be proud of to have in our own collections.” — Daniel Falconer (47:51)

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6. Kirith Ungol, Masterpieces, & Technical Insights

(70:04 – 80:30)

Creating the Cirith Ungol Collectible

• Started with the brief: make it roughly the size of the Doors of Durin collectible.
• Used digital mockups at various sizes to find the right fit.
• Challenges included lack of perfect reference, balancing detail and manufacturability (e.g., tents over scaffolding for easier molding).
• Personal passion: Leonard asked to make Cirith Ungol for years.

“What the actual scale is, I don't know. The bigoture was probably at about 1:35th scale, probably 1:20th scale.” — Leonard Ellis (74:31)

• The video on YouTube introduced the piece to a broader audience, showing detail and craftsmanship.

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7. War of the Rohirrim & Animation Design

(57:06 – 64:22, 80:56 – 83:07)

Daniel’s Role on War of the Rohirrim

• Was new to anime production, with Kenji Kamiyama’s direction to “design as if it was a live action movie.”
• Helped the Japanese animation team maintain visual continuity with Jackson’s films, tweaking familiar locations to fit the new timeline and suit the anime format (e.g., taller Helm’s Deep wall explained by "valley floor erosion").
• Background art allowed for more lavish detail since it didn't need to move.

“Luckily for us, all we really had to do as concept artists, as designers on it, was present options and throw as much at the wall as possible and see what would stick.” — Daniel Falconer (25:52)

“It was a really engaging and fun process...one of the most fun projects I’ve had to work on because it was both familiar and fresh at the same time.” — Daniel Falconer (62:57)

War of the Rohirrim Collectibles

• The “Helm of King Helm” is the first of its kind, reused and “realized” as if it would exist in the live-action universe.
• No specifics on new collectibles were announced, but feedback from fans is welcome.

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8. Masters Collection: Defining the Ultimate Collectibles

(83:08 – 91:47)

What Makes a “Masters Collection” Piece?

• Higher level of detail, less constrained by cost or edition size, allowing for greater artistry and complexity.
• Lower production runs for quality assurance.

The Nine: Fellowship in Moria Statue

• Daniel and Leonard discuss the upcoming centerpiece: all nine members of the Fellowship in an off-screen moment climbing a shattered Moria staircase—a vertical rather than horizontal display.
• Each character interacts, with layers of storytelling (Gimli examining a fallen dwarf's helmet, Boromir helping Sam, Gollum lurking below, etc.)

“There's a little bit of storytelling going on with those characters... and you get a sense of what's going through their minds individually.” — Daniel Falconer (85:39)

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9. Creativity, Inspiration & Avoiding Burnout

(91:10 – 98:33)

• Both find endless wells of inspiration in Tolkien’s rich world—simply rereading the books or exploring new letters/releases reignites excitement.
• At Wētā, everyday inspiration comes from the iconic “weapons wall”, a corridor lined with the original props and swords.

“If I'm ever uninspired, all I have to do is pick up those books and read. Tolkien never fails to light a fire in me.” — Daniel Falconer (91:48)

“The weapons wall is virtually every wall in Weta Workshop… At any time, I can walk into that room and I can pick up one of those swords… and the simplicity and beauty of Strider's sword… That's one of the ways I keep… motivated.” — Leonard Ellis (94:21)

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10. Looking Ahead: Fellowship 25th Anniversary and More

(98:35 – close)

• The upcoming Masters Collection Fellowship in Moria is the first major step in marking the 25th anniversary of The Fellowship of the Ring.
• Many more collectibles are planned, from “mini monsters” to major pieces across all timelines; details are under wraps for now.
• The 25th anniversary will extend across the next three years, with surprises in the works.

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Notable Moments & Memorable Quotes

• “We are those detail-obsessed fans.” — Daniel Falconer (47:51)
• “The rules of that world started to form in Peter’s mind and in our minds, and it started to become easier…” — Daniel Falconer (29:05)
• “Take me to the weapons wall any day.” — Leonard Ellis (98:12)
• Humorous aside: Daniel’s own collecting passion is a “danger” at home: “They is you!” — Daniel Falconer’s wife, on the dilemma of bringing home new creations (40:24)
• On Alan Lee: “He went away and thought about it and drew himself wearing [a hat] to decide... isn’t that wonderful?” — Daniel Falconer (56:15)

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Key Timestamps

• 03:32 – Guests’ Tolkien discovery stories
• 07:13 – Starting at Wētā Workshop
• 16:46 – Why make collectibles? Fandom as identity
• 18:03 – The pressure and thrill of designing for Lord of the Rings
• 24:55 – Importance of Alan Lee & John Howe
• 25:52 – The iterative design process; balancing inspiration
• 34:39 – Collectibles Deep Dive—focus on Radagast
• 48:51 – The research behind collectibles (detail-obsessed craftsmanship)
• 70:04 – Making the Kirith Ungol collectible: scale, challenges
• 80:56 – War of the Rohirrim collectibles
• 83:08 – What is the Masters Collection? The upcoming Fellowship-in-Moria piece
• 91:10 – What keeps them inspired and avoids burnout
• 98:35 – Plans for the Fellowship’s 25th anniversary and future projects

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Final Thoughts

This episode stands out as a passionate, detailed window into the world of professional Tolkien fans who have translated their lifelong love of Middle-earth into careers that continually give back to the global fan community. Both Daniel Falconer and Leonard Ellis exemplify the marriage of technical mastery, artistic passion, and deep respect for Tolkien’s source material. The Prancing Pony Podcast hosts create an inviting pub-like atmosphere where even the deepest lore and the most technical aspects of collectibles become engaging storytelling—reminding every listener that, truly, “we are those fans.”

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For more details and to see the referenced collectibles and concept art, visit Wētā Workshop’s website or follow them on social media.

Contact info: Listeners are encouraged to send feedback, collectible ideas, and favorite Tolkien stories to the podcast at [e-mail].

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End of summary. For timestamps, memorable quotes, and recommended further listening, see above.

Transcript

[Daniel Falconer]

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[Barliman Butterbur]

You mean finance?

[Daniel Falconer]

Yeah, finance.

[Barliman Butterbur]

Got pre qualified for a Carvana auto loan, entered my terms and shot from thousands of great car options, all within my budget.

[Daniel Falconer]

That's cool. But financing through Carvana was so easy. Financed, done. And I get to pick up my.

[Barliman Butterbur]

Car from their Carvana vending machine tomorrow.

[Daniel Falconer]

Financed, right? That's what they said.

[Barliman Butterbur]

You can spend time trying to pronounce financing, or you can actually finance and buy your car Today on Carvana financing, subject to credit approval. Additional terms and conditions may apply.

[Daniel Falconer]

When did making plans get this complicated? It's time to streamline with WhatsApp, the secure messaging app that brings the whole group together. Use polls to settle dinner plans, send event invites and pin messages so no one forgets mom 60th and never miss a meme or milestone. All protected with end to end encryption. It's time for WhatsApp message privately with everyone. Learn [e-mail] this episode is brought to you by State Farm.

[Sean Marchese]

Checking off the boxes on your to.

[Daniel Falconer]

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[Sean Marchese]

Finding coverage that best fits your needs.

[Daniel Falconer]

Like a good neighbor, State Farm is there.

[Barliman Butterbur]

Good evening, little masters, and welcome to episode 382 of the prancing Pony podcast, where today we begin our 10th season of the PPP with an episode of Special Magnificence.

[Sean Marchese]

And not just because I'm back for this one. Right.

[Barliman Butterbur]

Although that alone would do it.

[Sean Marchese]

Oh, well, thank you. I appreciate that.

[Barliman Butterbur]

Always good to have you back, Sean.

[Sean Marchese]

It's always good to be back, my friend. But folks, pull up a bench in the common room and join us. I'm Sean Marchese, the Lord of the Mark, and I'm here with the man of the West, Alan Sisto.

[Barliman Butterbur]

Thank you, Sean. A couple of months back, James Tauber and I had the opportunity to close out season nine of the PPP by talking with Darren Ormandy, head writer for Tales of the Shire from. What a workshop. Fantastic chat. If you haven't listened to that, go back and do that. Today though, the Weta wonderfulness continues.

[Sean Marchese]

Yeah, that's right. Today we're joined by not one, but two incredible folks from the creative force in New Zealand. Leonard Ellis is a sculptor and model maker whose work With Weta runs the gamut from happy Hobbit holes to the doors of Durin and more.

[Barliman Butterbur]

And our other guest today is Daniel Falconer, a designer who's been working in Middle Earth for a quarter century, from the Fellowship of the Ring all the way up to the War of the Rohirrim. He's also the author of the behind the scenes books on the Hobbit film trilogy, the Art of the War of the Rohirrim and the Tome could also be used. I mean, I'm thinking of it like in terms of the Clue film. Like it's Allan in the library with the book.

[Sean Marchese]

With the book.

[Barliman Butterbur]

Middle Earth from script to screen. Amazing, amazing work, folks. Please welcome to the PPP Daniel Falconer and Leonard Ellis.

[Daniel Falconer]

Hi. Hey, folks. Nice to. Nice to. To share a half pint with all of you pony patrons here and. And talk some Middle Earth, which is our favorite thing to talk.

[Barliman Butterbur]

Ours too, as you might guess.

[Sean Marchese]

Totally. And we can't wait. We're excited to get into it, so why don't we go ahead and get into this conversation. Alan, you want to kick us off?

[Daniel Falconer]

Sounds great.

[Barliman Butterbur]

Yeah, I'll go and kick us off. This is the first time that either of you have been on the Prancing Pony podcast, so we're going to ask each of you the question that we ask everybody who comes on the show. When and how did you first discover Tolkien's work? And what is it about Tolkien that always draws you back to Middle Earth?

[Daniel Falconer]

Leonard, do you want to kick us off?

[Leonard Ellis]

I can kick us off first. I was actually a late comer to Tolkien's work. I was in my very late teens when I was starting my first job and as an animation studio. And this chap who was not much older than me came in and he was looking at some of the animation work we were doing and he said, oh, that would make such an awesome Lord of the Rings.

[Daniel Falconer]

And I was like, Lord of the Rings.

[Leonard Ellis]

That's that one with Porky. Something about boys on an island. Flies or something.

[Daniel Falconer]

Lord of the Flies.

[Barliman Butterbur]

Anyway, not the first to make that mistake.

[Leonard Ellis]

Yes, I knew about Lord of the Flies, not Lord of the R. And. And then. But I was hella confused. Anyway, I went and researched into it because he was talking about wizards and stuff and I was like, huh, what's this about? And yeah, so I put the. The Lord of the Rings on my birthday list and I was hooked ever since. And it was funny because another co worker was. He knew the story quite well and he was just dying to tell Me and he was like, oh man, wait until hear about Gandalf. It's like what, you know, and things like that. So that' that was my introduction to Tolkien and yeah. Hooked ever since.

[Sean Marchese]

Yeah, that's amazing. It does that. You do get hooked when you, when you read it.

[Daniel Falconer]

You do.

[Sean Marchese]

Definitely not the first time I've heard somebody confuse Lord of the Rings with Lord of the Flies. Although I think that boys on that island would have been a bit better behaved if they'd had Gandalf there with him.

[Barliman Butterbur]

Oh for sure.

[Daniel Falconer]

But I was a child of the 70s and so I was about five, four or five years old maybe, actually, maybe maybe a little younger than that. And I recall walking through downtown with my, with my parents and walking past all the signage that was out for Bakshi's Lord of the Rings animated film and they had the most amazing poster art and theater displays for that. I remember seeing just these amazing big panels with, you know, with Gandalf looking incredible and Gollum, look, sneaking around and Aragorn with his sword and all this kind of stuff and being just absolutely captivated by that im and asking my parents what is that? Can we go and see that? You know, and then saying oh no, that's much too much, too scary for you. But it stuck with me, you know, it made an impact and I was always fascinated by that and, and drawn in by the imagery which I guess sort of, you know, in a way set me on this path. I was a few years older, I think I was probably about 9 or 10 when I read the Hobbit first. And then my mother gave me some, a copy of the Lord of the Rings, her copy, which the pages were falling out and you know, it was, it was a bit dog eared and that kind of thing. But she's like, I know that you're going to love this. And then reading that, I realized that's what I had seen.

[Sean Marchese]

Yeah.

[Daniel Falconer]

All those years ago and suddenly things started to fall into place. And then later on I saw that film on vhs. So yeah, the hook was set for me very, very, at a very, very young age. It was the imagery of Middle Earth, the imagination, the imagined world that drew me in. And that's kind of what's kept me there ever since. And I've been lucky enough to find a career doing exactly that. Which is kind of extraordinary when I reflect back on it now, isn't it?

[Sean Marchese]

That's wonderful. That's great. Well, and speaking of that, I mean you've each been working with Weta Workshop for quite a few years now, I believe. Daniel, I think you started with the studio in 1996.

[Daniel Falconer]

That's correct, yes. Yeah. Wow. That's right. So more than 25 years now. Coming up close to 30. 20, 29. Nearly by the time. This is nearly 29 because I joined in October or November, I think it was of 96. So yeah, that's kind of crazy. But then it also, my goodness, fixed you here for nearly two decades. Right?

[Leonard Ellis]

Not quite. Next week I click over to 14 years.

[Daniel Falconer]

Oh, 14, yeah.

[Sean Marchese]

I think I saw something like 2011, 2012, something like that for you.

[Daniel Falconer]

Yeah.

[Sean Marchese]

Which to me feels like, oh yeah, that wasn't that long ago. But like, yeah, it's like, oh, you blink and suddenly it's like almost 15 years.

[Barliman Butterbur]

Sean, that's because we're old and we don't want to admit it.

[Sean Marchese]

I know, I know.

[Barliman Butterbur]

That's really, that's all it is.

[Daniel Falconer]

Yeah.

[Sean Marchese]

But I think this is a great jumping off point for our listeners to hear a little bit about your stories. How did each of you get involved with Weta Workshop to begin with? How did you find your way to this amazing career?

[Daniel Falconer]

Both of us met Richard Taylor, didn't we? Like at different times. Is that kind of.

[Leonard Ellis]

It was sort of. Mine was a bit more roundabout. You can go first on this one, Dan.

[Daniel Falconer]

Sure, sure. So I'll try and keep. Because there's a long version and a short version, but the short version is I was in my final year of study doing a design degree majoring in illustration. And I knew I wanted to get into film and television and to basically work my way into becoming a concept artist because having watched the behind the scenes documentaries of various films that I was a big fan of, I could see that that was. You could actually get a job sitting in a room with a bunch of other artists imagining these incredible worlds. And that was something that I didn't know what else I could do with myself. That really the only thing I was qualified for. So, so I really wanted to do that and be growing up in New Zealand, which is a very small country. We only have a population of, you know, 5 million now and it was even smaller back in the day. The opportunity to do, do that is, was fairly remote. And so. But I heard about, wow, this company in Wellington, New Zealand that, that was doing this kind of work was providing creatures for film and television projects. I had always assumed that I would have to go overseas, you know, immigrate to the UK or the United States or somewhere else in the world to find someone doing it. So I was amazed when, when I learned that there was actually someone in New Zealand doing it. The Hercules and Xena television shows were being filmed in very close to where I lived at the time. So I, as part of my work experience quota of my degree, you know, had to go and get practical experience. I managed to get myself in on that, those TV shows and was doing a little bit of dog's body work here and there. And I remember walking into a room one day and seeing a whole bunch of creatures on stands set up for a photo shoot and a little note hanging around them saying, hey, this is Richard Taylor. I've just left these here, we'll be coming back to pick them up in a couple of hours. And I'm like, well, I'm going to make sure I'm standing here in a couple hours.

[Barliman Butterbur]

That's right.

[Sean Marchese]

That's great.

[Daniel Falconer]

Yeah. So I met Richard and his lovely. Anybody who's met Richard knows how wonderfully encouraging and positive and just enthusiastic and passionate he is. And so meeting him was amazing. And he, pretty much on the spot, after a few minutes of conversation, invited me, said, oh, well, if you're serious about this, you really must come down to Wellington and hang out with us for a little while and see if maybe this is a fit for you. And the short version is I did and it is. And I'm still, you know, I've come and gone a little bit. I sort of, I do a bit of. I dabble in other work as well. So I'm sort of any part time at the workshop now, but basically I've been here all, almost continuously now since then. Wow. I'm very, very grateful. The timing was so fortuitous because I'd always imagined and always hoped that perhaps if I get into the film and television industry, maybe at some point, if the Lord of the Rings ever happened again as a live action feature, that perhaps I'd be lucky enough to find my way into it. How incredibly fortunate then that I happened to be here right before it kicked off and so found myself in the right place at the right time to be part of it. I'm so grateful to that for that astonishing opportunity and serendipity, because basically I've been living in Middle Earth ever since, which is a great honor.

[Sean Marchese]

That's wonderful. I love that story. Just the pure, like you said, serendipity of it all. And it's a pretty magical thing. Enchanted, I think Tolkien might say. I love it.

[Daniel Falconer]

Yeah, I've been very, very blessed. So it's nice to be able to share that as much as possible with other people and help try and give other people their opportunities as well whenever there's that that comes along.

[Sean Marchese]

Well, and we certainly appreciate everything you do.

[Daniel Falconer]

Yeah.

[Sean Marchese]

Leonard, what about you? Tell us your story.

[Leonard Ellis]

Well, mine was same same, but different. So many, many years ago I was a member of the old Shadow and Flame, which was of course the honorary forum at the time. And I had done a sculpt of one of the. Of Greg Broadmoor's Dr. Grohrborg's characters. Our Cardinal Venatrix the Sup, the lesser superior or excuse me, I forgot the name but Greg saw that and, and he showed it to Richard and we just happened to be sitting in Richard's office here. And if you were to look around Richard's office, you'll see there's a lot of. Of garage kits. So he's. Richard is a big fan of that and he wanted a copy of my, my sculpt, which I was really honored about.

[Daniel Falconer]

Yeah.

[Leonard Ellis]

So that was organized. And anyway, I came down to Wellington to come visit the wetter cave and I got to meet Richard and he said to me that if I ever find myself. Well, he offered me a trial period. It's just not a great. I shouldn't say a trial period, a work experience, that's it for a couple of weeks. So I came down to do that and the workshop was just in the throngs of the Hobbit. It was just manic at the time, but they still had to produce collectibles. So in that little two week time, they offered me a collectible. They said, do you want to do something? And they were busy working on the little. It's about a 15th scale fellowship lineup which was in three parts. And so I chose Boromir. And while everything was going gangbusters around me with a Hobbit, I was, I was able to sit and sculpt Boromir, which I always thought was the coolest thing.

[Barliman Butterbur]

So cool.

[Leonard Ellis]

And yes. And so I took that away. After my two weeks I took that back with me to Auckland and a couple of months later I came down again to deliver the sculpt. And Richard said to me that if I ever find myself in Wellington looking for a job to, you know, come and knock on the door, which I most certainly did. I found myself coincidentally in Wellington a few months later. I don't know how that coincidence happened at all. And yeah, and I came straight in and it was really cool because then I went on to sculpting the little Aragon for that lineup. And I've been here ever since. And collectibles is what I wanted to do, and I've been really fortunate to pretty much stay almost exclusively in the collectibles world of where to workshop.

[Sean Marchese]

Wow, that's wonderful.

[Daniel Falconer]

Richard's love of collectible garage kits and polystone statues and all that, you know, busts and statues and all that kind of thing, I think, really, that's where that opportunity for all of us came from, really. You know, we worked on the Lord of the Rings movies, and we'd all loved being part of that world and wanted to continue. But of course, we're coming to the end of the films and that work was drying up. And it was Richard that suggested, well, you know, why don't we take a license? And not only should we be a special effects company that produces, you know, artworks, you know, for use in the film and television industry itself, but maybe we can also produce licensed collectibles based on those characters that we've created for the film, that kind of thing, thereby bringing a level of authenticity to that that, you know, would be appreciated, I think, by fellow fans, because we all consider ourselves fans and collectors, you know, for first and foremost. And also, it allowed us to stay in that world for longer. I don't think any of us imagined that we would still be in it all these years later. But, you know, nobody's complaining. It's. It's been great. And then, you know, through that. So. So basically, then we had a workshop. It has many arms to it, essentially this big monster. But one of those is the collectibles arm, which has grown and grown over the years. And the other arm, of course, is the film and television. And then there's all kinds of other stuff as well, you know, exhibition work and what have you. But that collectible side of things has given us continuity when, you know, the film work can be a bit feast or famine sometimes, and obviously the Middle Earth projects have come and gone, and so. But those of us, like Leonard and I, who've been able to attach ourselves to the collectibles work have been able to just keep living and exploring in Middle Earth and producing artwork and sharing it with other fans, which in turn has also led to connections with folks like yourselves and communities out there of other collectors and fans. And that's been a wonderful experience, you know, being part of that and going to conventions and meeting people and celebrating this world together. Because that, at its heart, is what, for me, as a collector myself, that's what My collecting is all about. It's a way of. Of directly interfacing with those worlds that I. That I'm a fan of and expressing my joy of those that I find in those worlds through the acquisition and displaying.

[Barliman Butterbur]

Absolutely, yeah.

[Daniel Falconer]

That's what it is for me anyhow. And I. So. Any. Yes, eternally. That's a long way of saying, I'm so grateful that. That Richard made that all those years ago to pursue that, because it's kept us all involved and been able to make my love of Middle Earth a career which is more than I could ever dreamed or hoped for.

[Barliman Butterbur]

Yeah, that's wonderful.

[Sean Marchese]

That's great. I mean, one of the things that Alan and I have discovered time and time again as we've talked to people through this podcast, is just the different ways people engage with their fandom for Lord of the Rings and to be able to do something that gives back to the community, that gives back to other fans. Yeah, it's such a unique gift and it's just so cool to hear you guys talk about it.

[Barliman Butterbur]

It really is. Well, you know, Daniel, you mentioned getting in at exactly the right time, and you sure did. Just before the beginning of the work on the Lord of the Rings, what was that like? Coming into the team new and suddenly you find yourself designing characters like Treebeard or Middle Earth objects like Orc weapons and armor that have now become iconic. I mean, they've really defined the appearance of these characters and objects for a generation of fans. Was that even in your mind, that last bit?

[Daniel Falconer]

Yeah, I mean, there was somewhat. There was anxiety involved in it because here were we nobodies, essentially, and we're being tasked with translating one of the most beloved and venerated, you know, literary classics. Yeah. To the screen in live action, which, you know, obviously there had been animated forays into that world before, but in terms of a big, wide release of a live action film, this. This was our chance to fail. You know what I mean? So there was anxiety in the sense that because so many of us, myself included, were such fans of that world, we felt the pressure to honor it and do it right to the best of our ability. And obviously, you know, we're in control of what we're in control of. And, you know, films are huge things. Many, many people contribute to them. We just all at an individ. We'll just try to do our best and to be worthy of the task. So there was trepidation, there was anxiety, but there was also tremendous excitement because, you know, these sort of opportunities don't come along very often or at all, you know, so. So we just all threw ourselves at it. I always thought in my head that I had three masters. I had. When I. Whenever I was drawing something, I. Obviously my primary responsibility was to give Peter Jackson something that he could use in the movie and to do something that. That matched his vision of it. So to understand and express his vision of Middle Earth, because this was his adap. In the back of my mind, I also want to make sure that what I was doing didn't run afoul of the spirit of the text. Understanding that within adaptation there is a reimagining of sorts that goes on. It's a different medium. And so some things necessarily do change, but there was always that desire to keep it true to the spirit. And then the other thing I had in the back of my mind also was that I was going to have to stand alongside this thing once it got out to the public. And other fans who are equally as critical as I am would then see it and have their own opinions of it. It. And, and so, you know, you want to make sure that you, you don't put anything out there that's going to directly rub other fans up the wrong way and say that's, that's. That feels anachronistic to Middle Earth. That's not right. Or. And part of that is also, you know, there are going to be people who are already big fans of the books who watch the movie with a critical eye, but there's also going to be many, many people who watch the films having never read the books. Right. They're going to see it in the movies first. Then they might be maybe go away and read the books. And their experience of reading those books will, Will always be influenced by what they've seen on the screen. So if you really mess it up, then you mess it up for them forever.

[Barliman Butterbur]

You know, that's true for a long time. George Bakshi's, you know, pantsless Boromir sort of ruined it for all of us. I would, I would read the books to be like, I can't. I don't want to picture Boromir like this.

[Daniel Falconer]

But there are so many things that they did beautifully in those films as well. And I'd be lying if I didn't say that some of those influence, you know, the creative.

[Sean Marchese]

Oh, yeah, sure.

[Daniel Falconer]

That, that you unconsciously absorb that stuff. You remember what works for you, what, what resonates for you.

[Barliman Butterbur]

Well, thank you for giving Boromir pants.

[Daniel Falconer]

At least we're grateful for that. Yeah, but so. So, I mean, there was that, but then, you know, we were also pretty green. Almost all of us working on it were relatively new to the industry, so we didn't know what we didn't know. I think we were probably a little bit too naive to realize how huge this was going to get. And it did grow as we were working on it. It grew and grew and grew. You know, it didn't start out as three films. It started out as two. And it took on a life of its own, and we found ourselves swept up in it. That said, I probably didn't breathe my first sigh of relief until we started seeing footage and saw it and went, oh, actually, this could be really, you know, you dare to hope it's going to be good, but there are so many things you can't control. It's an act of faith. Right? And then when we started seeing things and going, actually, this looks like it's going to be really, really cool. Yeah. And then you start to get really excited like, wow, okay, maybe it is going to be something that people will be remembering in two or three decades time. And you hope. And then you're just pinching yourself that you're so lucky to be involved and can ride that train.

[Sean Marchese]

Yeah.

[Daniel Falconer]

Yeah. Wow.

[Barliman Butterbur]

That's. I cannot even imagine putting myself in that position.

[Sean Marchese]

I mean, I think that, you know, the leap of faith aspect is. I mean, I remember. So I first read the books in 1991. I mean, podcast listeners have heard me say that before, but for Daniel and Leonard's benefit. So I was a fan for many years before I had a chance to see the movies. And even as a fan, there was that, oh, man, this movie's coming out. Is this gonna be. Is this gonna be good? You know, you don't know.

[Barliman Butterbur]

A little trepidation.

[Sean Marchese]

I remember seeing those first trailers and thinking, oh, this is gonna be good.

[Barliman Butterbur]

Yeah, this is gonna be awesome.

[Daniel Falconer]

Yeah.

[Sean Marchese]

And then, you know, my wife went and saw, you know, Fellowship midnight show opening night, and were you just, like, jaw on the floor walking out of there? Like, I'm so glad. It was, like, better than I wanted it. Better than I. I hoped it would be.

[Barliman Butterbur]

Better.

[Daniel Falconer]

Yeah.

[Barliman Butterbur]

Better than I could have hoped it would be.

[Sean Marchese]

And. And so, yeah, I think it was. I understand. Much harder for you, Daniel, because your name is on this thing.

[Daniel Falconer]

Right.

[Sean Marchese]

But I think for all of us, there was just this sigh of relief when we're like, oh, thank goodness. It's in good hands. All right, this is great.

[Barliman Butterbur]

And now we get two more and we're all so excited for them.

[Daniel Falconer]

Yeah, we were very, very fortunate. And that, as I say, because we were all very green, very new to it. I think part of the recipe for success that Peter Jackson cooked up was that, yes, he had this new crew that didn't know quite what they were getting into. And, you know, Richard Taylor has an expression. I'm not sure whether he's borrowed it from someone else or whether it's entirely his, but he would often say things like, you throw yourself at failure and miss. You know, you take on something that should be so daunting, but you just throw yourself at it and don't let yourself fail. You know, you just. But in any case, I think that Peter's. One of Peter's genius moves was that in addition to having this young, fresh crew who were too greedy to know what we were getting ourselves into, he also hired veterans and, you know, a listers to help guide it. And when you bring those people to it, everybody rises, you know. And so having Alan Lee and John Howe, who were these amazing artists who'd been illustrating, talking, you know, many, many years themselves, very intimate with the material, very well respected by the fan community, had really shaped the vision of Middle Earth that many of us grew up with. Just from the illustrations that are in the books and calendars and what have you. Having those gentlemen come on board and provide, I guess, an informal mentorship to the rest of us and was also tremendously beneficial and so owe a lot to them. And they, of course, I remember when they first arrived, both of them, we all were tiptoeing around them and, you know, our heroes. And of course, very quickly those barriers come down and you. You start to think of them as your friends. And I'm very lucky that I can call them friends now, but I owe them a huge amount and I learned so much from both of them and others on the project as well.

[Sean Marchese]

Yeah, yeah, well, no doubt. And clearly their influence is very present in the movies. And that's actually a perfect segue into my next question, which was really about sort of the balancing act that you're doing as a designer, because you are working from various sources. You're working with people like Alan Lee and John Howe who have created a distinctive visual style to this world. You're working from historical references, right? You're looking at things like the Anglo Saxons or the Vikings for the Rohirrim and stuff like that. And of course, as you said earlier, Daniel, you're working from Tolkien's own words, too. And you're an artist and designer who wants to have, you know, who has your own personal stamp on this too. How do you balance all that and how do you work with those maybe potentially competing influences to come up with, with an idea of visual design that looks cohesive and that feels right? How do you know when you've got the magic there?

[Daniel Falconer]

Great question. Luckily for us, all we really had to do as concept artists, as designers on it was present options and throw as much at the wall as possible and see what would stick. And ultimately, the arbiter of that is the director. Peter Jackson would be the one making the choices of what felt right to him. So we had the luxury of being able to play, really. And you were. Seldom were you ever offering one idea in response to his question, what does this look like? You would then offer a suite of ideas, and within that you'd offer safe options and crazy options and all that kind of thing. And see. And it was always interesting what he would respond to, because ultimately, when you're producing concept art, you're provoking questions and you're trying to get a conversation going about something that helps the director figure out and make choices himself or herself. So we would throw ideas at him and Peter would. Would give us his feedback. And sometimes, if we were really lucky, towards the end of the project, it was, yeah, great. That's it. Let's put it in the movie. Most of the time it was like, well, I kind of like this. I kind of like that. Here's why. And so it was an ongoing conversation, and we would. We would take many rounds of designs. You know, sometimes in the beginning, there were hundreds of drawings done and dozens of maquettes before we would find we found ourselves in the right place. And that's because in the early days, Peter Jackson's vision of Middle Earth could have been anything. And we didn't know what it was yet. And so we had to figure it out. And the only way to figure it out was to offer ideas and have them go, yes, no, yes, no. And as you did that, the rules of that world started to form in Peter's mind and in our minds, and it started to become easier to go, okay, we understand now. You know, Richard would often. Our boss, Richard Taylor, head of World Workshop, also helped guide the design. And he would often say, you know, what we're trying to do is, is. Is if there's a. If there's a spectrum. And at one end of that spectrum, you've got high fantasy extreme, you know, Dungeons and Dragons style. Boris Valeo you know, crazy, you know, stuff. And at the other end, you've got, you know, high realism, you know, historical epics. Where in that continuum does this sit, you know, how fantastical is it versus how. How, you know, historical is it? And. And so Peter would give us his feedback on that, basically design by design, the general ethos that he provided us. And one of the things he said early on was we don't want to hit our audience over the head with the fantastical right at the beginning. If we start in something that's quite grounded in a world that we recognize from our own history, it's going to feel more real to people. And people are going to. They're going to be. To relate to the characters more, and then we can introduce more fantastic elements as we go along. But we start out somewhere quite grounded. And so he was suggesting to us, he said, if you go and do research and you look for inspiration, don't necessarily go to other fantasy films. Go and look at historical epics. You know, watch the likes of Braveheart or that sort of thing. You know, look for things that will ground it in the world that we recognize and know. And then we'll add the fantasy as we go. And the further we step away from the human societies in Middle Earth, the more fantastical it gets. But ultimately, we want to keep the humans and Hobbits in particular as relatable as possible so they don't feel too alien to us.

[Barliman Butterbur]

Yeah, well, and that's totally staying true to the spirit of the text, like you talked about earlier. The Hobbits are exactly the characters that we are meant to witness this world through. So keeping them grounded and very human like makes the most sense. I love that sort of iterative process, like you said at the beginning, and just narrowing it down until the world felt defined by the choices that Peter Jackson had made throughout the process. But maybe have to ask you this later, but I'm already thinking, well, then, how much of that did you have to reset for the Hobbit? I mean, some of the rules were already there, but then, you know, you gotta. You've got all new ones too. But we'll come back to that. In fact, we'll come back for more on the films, especially about the War of the Rohir, which I'm definitely excited to talk about after we've had a chance to bring Leonard into the chat on collectibles, which we'll do right after this break. Football games and tailgate parties. Shorter days, back to school nights. Guess it must be fall. But guys you know, that doesn't mean we work any less hard or sweat any less. Mando Deodorant plus Sweat Control stops that odor before it starts. Don't mask it, Mando it. I had to do a lot of traveling over the last few months and I gotta say, Mando's been a big help. Help from hot humid days to packing tiny overnight bags. One thing that's helped me is Mando's 4 in 1 acidified cleansing bar. It actually works as a shampoo, body wash, face wash and deodorant all in a single bar. But it's Mando's new Deodorant plus Sweat Control stick. That's my favorite. I don't want just a deodorant. I need something that's going to fight sweat too and keep my pits fresh and dry. This stuff works, giving me that fresh, dry feeling all day long. Now Mando's starter pack is perfect for new customers. It comes with a solid stick deodorant, cream tube deodorant and two free products of your choice like a mini body wash or some deodorant wipes along with free shipping. Now as a special offer for our listeners, new customers get 20% off site wide with our exclusive code use code [e-mail] for 20% off sitewide and free shipping. That's S-H-O-P M A N D O dot com. Please support our show and tell them we sent you. Mando's got you covered with Deodorant plus Sweat Control. Say goodbye to sweat stains and say hello to long lasting freshness. It's hard to believe, but it's almost fall. That means temperatures cooling down and a time to look at your fall wardrobe. Quint's is where I'm headed to get a few fall staples that will last year after year. Now folks, you know I'm careful about who I partner with here on the ppp. Quince definitely meets my criteria. They focus on quality. Products that are stylish but totally affordable. All made with an eye towards sustainability and ethical business practices. They believe quality should never have to be a luxury. Now, they did send me a pair of their jeans. I gotta tell you, they've become my absolute go to perfect fit, super comfortable, the right feel and fit all the way through. I've also bought a couple of shirts on my own and I have to tell you, I'm looking forward to cooler temperatures so I can justify wearing one of their cashmere sweaters. I know you're thinking cashmere super expensive. Not the case with quints. Keep it classic and cool this fall with long lasting staples from quince. Go to quince.com pony for free shipping on your order and 365 day returns. That's Q-U I N C E.com for free shipping and 365 day returns. That's a full year folks. Quince.com pony quality doesn't have to be a luxury Quince Folks, we'll get back to our chat with Daniel Falconer and Leonard Ellis in just a minute, but we do want to remind you there's a lot more talk going on at the Prancing Pony Podcast than just us.

[Sean Marchese]

That's right, the PPP has an amazing listener community. They're always coming up with great questions and discussions across all of our social media spaces. You're going to want to check out our common room on Facebook, our dedicated subreddit, Twitter and more now on Facebook.

[Barliman Butterbur]

Just look for the Prancing Pony podcast. Follow the page to get the news and episode drops, but be sure to join the group to get involved in some great discussions.

[Sean Marchese]

Or if you prefer Reddit, find us there at r prancingponypod and on Twitter, Instagram, Blue Sky, Twitch, TikTok, and YouTube. We're simply rancingponypod.

[Barliman Butterbur]

And if you want daily Tolkien content and of course you do, check out today's Tolkien times on the PPP YouTube channel and on all your favorite podcast apps. That's my short format daily show with everything from Middle Earth Map Mondays to Silmarillion Saturdays. And then there's my twice weekly streaming of all fun things Middle Earth on the PPP plays. Be sure to check both of them out on the YouTube channel for all of the PPP productions at YouTube.com prancingponypod but let's go ahead and get back into the chat. And Leonard, you've been very patient. We're going to turn the conversation to collectibles, which I know is what a lot of our listeners are interested in right now. There's a lot of new stuff coming out for Middle Earth fans. Radagast fans have reason to be excited, it would seem. Tell us about some of the cool stuff you've got coming to pay homage to the Brown Wizard. He hasn't gotten nearly enough love until now, but we've got a 16 statue coming. Another one of them in front of Roscoe Bell. One of just his hat, apparently. Just a whole lot of Radagast. Why now?

[Leonard Ellis]

Yeah, well let's don't worry about, you know, not, not. I'm just sitting here enjoying listening to Dan because, you know, I'm a huge fan of Lord of the Rings too. So Lord of the Rings movies I came on during the Hobbit. So, you know, I'm sitting here just like everyone else there, just, you know, listening. I love it.

[Daniel Falconer]

Yeah.

[Leonard Ellis]

So anyway, Radagast. So, yeah, we, I think, you know, Radagast is just a. He's a favorite. Of course, everyone loved Sylvester McCoy and, you know, that's just permeated through to his Radagast portrayal. And it's just something that we enjoy. You know, we've got a few Gandalf collectibles out there and, you know, we just wanted to give people an alternative wizard. But it's something that we love doing. And. Yeah, Radagast and Roscoe Bell. Now that was a fun one. It's just such a mishmash of stuff. It's, it's, you know, it's almost like what most of our desks look like.

[Barliman Butterbur]

That's about right.

[Leonard Ellis]

There are some exceptions who have an extremely clean workspace, but for most of us it's just this mishmash of clatter, organized clutter. But it's, you know, we can all relate to him in some strange way.

[Sean Marchese]

Yes.

[Leonard Ellis]

But during the, when we were, we were told that we could do the environment of his house, we were really happy. It was, oh yeah, it was a beautiful sculpt that Sean Bolton, who of course worked on a whole lot of, of the original Weta collectibles for Lord of the Rings and he's, he's come back to Weta and, you know, he's, his skill has just improved immensely with, you know, where he was brilliant already for what he's doing now. Just such precision. He doesn't, he's an old school sculptor. It's all clay with him. And when you look at what he produces, it's just amazing. So having him then on, that was amazing. And it's quite a large environment for those that haven't seen it in the flesh. It's pretty big and it's holding a six scale. Radagast, who is slightly shorter than your average wizard, but he's still, he's in his house and, and there's just this bookshelf with all this clutter and the floor and, you know, we've got one of his hairs peeking in from behind the door. Yeah, I love it. I just love that environment.

[Barliman Butterbur]

That's fantastic.

[Sean Marchese]

So delightful.

[Daniel Falconer]

It's just Interesting because it's something of the ethos that is present in the movies. But then also we tried to bring to those collectibles as well, which is that people, especially those of us who collect, are kind of defined by our space around us and the detritus of our lives around us. So it's kind of neat. Yes. You can make a statue of just the little wizard on his own and that tells you. You something about them, but it's kind of neat to put them in context. Put them in his home.

[Barliman Butterbur]

Yeah.

[Daniel Falconer]

Surround them with all this stuff. And, and, and that stuff's just really fun to make, isn't it?

[Leonard Ellis]

Yeah. I mean, part of the challenge with that one, of course, was that the reference, because obviously our primary goal is to try and replicate something from the film. And that can be a bit hard when. When the camera is in. In motion, you know, you're not getting a good locked off shot. So then we go to our reference folders where we've got tons of onset pictures and that. And I can tell you one thing, the amount of stuff that did not match up from the onset references that we got to, you know, there seemed to be that the photographer had left the set or something between the first pictures that were taken and what the, you know, a lot was on the final set because we were having to, you know, like a lot of people, you know, they want to make this. Fans who try to create this on their own free frame through a lot of the film, try and get exactly where this tree branch was because it wasn't there in the shots that we had. And then all these weird, you know, vases and all that sort of thing in the corner there. Wait, they're not there in the next shot. And it's actually fun, you know, you've got to be quite a sleuth when you're creating these. Just trying to get something accurate because it's. Yeah. And the worst thing, of course, is then when you do all this and we've got the collectible out, and then of course you're digging in some other random folder in the archive and you find the perfect reference picture you were looking for. Of course, you know, what's Radagast doing in Minas Turith here? It's like, yeah.

[Barliman Butterbur]

Oh, wow.

[Sean Marchese]

Well, and of course, with Radagast, where there is so much clutter, you know, it's not Saruman's perfectly clean, you know, marble columns in Orthanc. Of course it's Radagast, where there's just like. So Much detail, but it's such a delightful piece and it looks like a lot of. Looks like it was a lot of fun to come up with.

[Leonard Ellis]

Yeah. And you. And you mentioned his hat earlier, of course, because we've got a beautiful helmet line of which Sean has, you know, himself sculpted a phenomenal amount of them. But, you know, that was something that we always wanted to do that was in. We were coming back to the helmets. Dan did a. A great concept piece of artwork with all the. The helmets collated for options. And of course, Radagast was on there. And yeah, it was a no brainer that we had to do the little nest underneath as well, just as a little, A little, you know, teaser it. But that was. Yeah, it's. It's something about it, you know, because Gandalf's hat in itself was such an iconic piece of that line.

[Barliman Butterbur]

Right.

[Leonard Ellis]

That, you know, why shouldn't Radagast's hat be there?

[Sean Marchese]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. And it's again, a hat with so much character, so unique, you know.

[Barliman Butterbur]

Yeah.

[Sean Marchese]

So different from.

[Daniel Falconer]

As a miniature helmet collector myself. I must admit that the push to get Radagast hat in the line was partially fueled by the fact that I had a space next to Gandalf's hat on my own shelf, that I was like, wouldn't Radagast's hat look so good there?

[Leonard Ellis]

How do I do this?

[Barliman Butterbur]

With great power comes great responsibility. Be careful what you assign to people. Right.

[Daniel Falconer]

Great danger, too, because I may have the collecting gene, but my wife definitely does not. And while my aesthetic tends towards the clutter of red again, I think my wife is a little less inclined to want to fill the house with random stuff. And so there's always a negotiation when a collectible comes home. So you can imagine the challenges that I keep working my. When I used to be art directing the collectibles. I'm not now, but when I was, it was somewhat awkward because I kept engineering myself into awkward conversations at home, you know, where I would design a collectible and then, of course, have to own it and then have to bring it home. And my, you know, Catherine would be like, what is this? Why is this coming home? Like, well, they made it, right? So I have to have it. They. And she's like, yeah, but they is you.

[Barliman Butterbur]

They is you. That's great.

[Daniel Falconer]

I love it. Yeah, she's wonderfully understanding and accommodating. I'm very lucky to have her. But I have my areas of the house that I can clutter up. And then we have the safe zones that my junk doesn't infect.

[Barliman Butterbur]

Wise man.

[Daniel Falconer]

Yeah.

[Sean Marchese]

I imagine your spaces are all behind doors that can be closed, right?

[Daniel Falconer]

Yes.

[Barliman Butterbur]

For those at home in the podcast audience, Daniel's nodding quite emphatically, yes.

[Sean Marchese]

Awesome. Well, so that. Obviously we've been talking about stuff primarily related to the Hobbit trilogy, but you're still putting out a lot of great collectibles for the original Lord of the Rings trilogy, too, even though we're almost 25 years on. Leonard, I think you personally worked on a series of Hobbit hole environments.

[Leonard Ellis]

Yeah. So that was a beautiful little area that Dave Tremont and I were able to get into. We love the Hobbit holes. And it's. I love Hobbiton. I, you know, I just love going back there. And every single time, you know, having the connection of working with the. On the Hobbit holes, it's, you know, I guess I'm looking through. I look through Hobbiton with a different eye. It's like I can separate myself and just enjoy the environment. But then, you know, sculptor mode goes on, and I'm looking at every single little bit of detail, because I want to include every single little bit of detail. It was. I mean, the last time I was there, I was very fortunate. It was actually we were doing the reveal for the big Bag end that we did that Dan and I went up for.

[Sean Marchese]

Okay.

[Leonard Ellis]

And in Auckland, I think they were in lockdown again.

[Daniel Falconer]

That was during COVID was it?

[Leonard Ellis]

Yeah. And so we. There were no tours, but they were also getting Hobbiton ready for one of the events. So we had the morning of Hobbiton to ourselves.

[Daniel Falconer]

And at the film location.

[Leonard Ellis]

Right. At the film location. Yeah. And so there was nothing there. There were frogs, there were chirping. There were birds chirping. It was. And you just hear the odd sound of clippers and that sort of thing as the gardeners were around the getting ready. And the beautiful thing is the gardeners who work at the film location, they're just so, you know, motivated and they're so in love with what they're doing. And so you'd always get shown these little things and, like, there's a little bird's nest over here. Come and have a look. And I haven't been able to sculpt that particular Hobbit hole, but that's, you know, that's one thing I'm going to do is that put that little bird's nest in, because I've got such a memory of It.

[Sean Marchese]

And that's so cool.

[Leonard Ellis]

Yeah. And they're just such nice little pieces because they don't, you know, some collectibles are a major time investment for us. They're. They're something that I can sit down and sculpt over a couple of weeks and. And it's done. And you. You don't have any PTSD from a hobbit hole sculpt.

[Barliman Butterbur]

Okay, that opens up a whole new question. What was PTSD for sculpting? We're gonna have to find out what that means.

[Leonard Ellis]

It's just. It's just where you, you know, it's get. You get your sculpts, get to a point where you want to. You're refining it, and it's been going on a long time, so it's just. It's not a case. You're sick of it, but you're just. Because some of your sculpts, you, you know, they. Some are a challenge, and you.

[Barliman Butterbur]

Yeah.

[Leonard Ellis]

You know, they're the ones who tend to stay in a box. Yeah. It's, you know, fortunately, time. Time heals wounds at times, and, and you can take them out the box and feel proud of what you've done and. But it's usually that. That drive to get stuff so perfect and, you know, with the time that you have, because we are set to, you know, we. We are set to a certain amount of time that we've got to do these, of course. Yeah. So it's. Yeah. I mean, PTSD is, you know, with all due respect to those, probably the wrong term for it, but, you know, you've got harsh memories of some of these collectibles.

[Daniel Falconer]

They're all. So you try and invest so much in them, don't you?

[Leonard Ellis]

You do.

[Daniel Falconer]

And, and, and so, so they are mountains to climb, some of them, if you're spending weeks or months on. On them. Oh. In, you know, in the best possible way, it's a privilege to get to work on the stuff. But by the same token, you're also holding yourself to an incredibly high standard. I know. Leonard holds yourself to a very high standard. And so, so, you know, it's. It's. It's fun work, but it's also hard work. The hobbit holes are a little bit of a relief in the sense that they're small, they're fast to produce, and there's something just so intrinsically joyful about every aspect.

[Sean Marchese]

Yeah.

[Daniel Falconer]

So much of Middle Earth is kind of dour and, and, and oppressive simply by the nature of it. You know, when you're sculpting Baradur. It's not a happy place.

[Barliman Butterbur]

Yeah, that's kind of what I was thinking when you're talking about ptsd. I'm thinking, well, you know, I got Sauron's eyes staring at me for six weeks and I'm going to have to go and do some hobbit holes just to make myself smile again.

[Leonard Ellis]

That is exactly it. But also I guess I'm looking at, through a different filter because you know, Dan has been involved in the collectibles from its birth, but I haven't, I've come in, I've been one of those, you know, keyboard warriors on the side going that wall is wrong. This is the worst collectible ever.

[Sean Marchese]

You've got the ponytail like the guy from the Simpsons. Right. That's what I'm imagining.

[Leonard Ellis]

And you know, it's, it's so. I still picture that myself in that sort of thing. Like I have to get this detail right and you know, no matter what it takes sort of thing. Because there are, you know, we are trying to deliver something especially on the environments. You know, they don't have, they don't have facial expressions. You know, they've got, they've got a different kind of way for training themselves and so trying to get that as accurate as possible. I mean we, there are the times where a few things get missed and that, that, that damn reference folder shows up, you know, shows up too late.

[Barliman Butterbur]

And that's a killer.

[Leonard Ellis]

Yeah, that's, that's why the hobbit holes are so beautiful. There's a, there's a nice excuse for them in that they're forever changing. You know, there's, we've connect, we've got pictures of the same hardhole that has got a lot of different faces. And so we sometimes take bits and pieces of it and forgive us if that, you know, little bush is not growing next to it anymore. But you know, that's, that's the beauty of it. At some point in time and it was.

[Daniel Falconer]

Yeah, I mean you joke about detail obsessed fans holding us to account, but in actual fact we are those details and, and those people are our kind of people and we, we actually, you know, we depend upon them and, and we wouldn't have it any other way. It's like if something's wrong, tell us and we'll, we do our best to try and correct things as well. You know, we're certainly not infallible. It's a conversation and it's a relationship and, and we all ultimately want to create the most beautiful and joyful vision of Middle Earth that we can all be proud of to have in our own collections. Right? Absolutely.

[Leonard Ellis]

There are times where we, you know, we make, make a mistake in that. And believe me, no one beats ourselves up when we get found out more than ourselves. It's, oh yeah, yeah. You know, and if we can correct it, totally will. But it's sometimes those are the ones that stay in the box because you, you get a bit traumatized by the fact that like, how could I miss it? It's there all along. It's, it's that one, you know, it's there. It's the detail, it's, it's, you know.

[Daniel Falconer]

Yeah. The research for the collectibles that we do and going back into archival photographs and, and plan set plans and all that kind of stuff and, and is, it's a really fun part of the job because in a sense it's almost, I liken it to archaeology sometimes. Yeah. Especially as memories fade. You know, I mean, I was there 3,000 years ago, but, but, but yet I, you know, I forget stuff as well. And so it's really interesting when you go back through and you look at those, these old fading Polaroids from back in the day and you, and you try and pick out the little details and man, Honestly, we're nearly 30 years on from it now, from some of the, from when we very first started work on those projects, those movies. And yet there are still details that pop up and little surprises and things that I remember seeing I come across when we're looking through the archival photographs for reference and go, oh, wow, never spotted that before, never knew about that. Isn't that cool?

[Barliman Butterbur]

Wow.

[Daniel Falconer]

Particularly because on a job that was enormous as a Lord of the Rings, you had hundreds of people working on it, right. You kind of only you get tunnel vision on your own tasks and you don't see what's going on elsewhere. So there are wonderful surprises to be found, particularly when you have detail obsessed fans working on these things. And so everybody is trying to bring that Tolkien esque authenticity everywhere. You know, John Howe would always say, you know, there's detail that's got to go on things. Well, that detail may as well be something meaningful. It's as much effort to make it something meaningful as it is to make it just nonsense. So often gives you that detail if you look hard enough for it. So everybody on the project was trying to put those little bits of detail in there so that the deeper you look, the illusion isn't blown and there's still Cool stuff to be found. And so we discover that as we're researching for the.

[Leonard Ellis]

That's one of the amazing things about being able to trawl through some of these folders where a lot of Alan and John's pictures still exist. They're line drip drawings. And some, you know, just in the corner of a picture sometimes is just that line drawing that has been beautifully replicated in the film. And that's all you need just to get that, you know, that little bit of extra detail or explanation, I should say, because it's. You can see where what the genesis of that idea came from. And it's. It's. Yeah, it's really beautiful being able to end up, you know, an honor being able to look at all these sketches.

[Daniel Falconer]

What's the latest mountain you've just climbed, Leonard, that you've been working on?

[Leonard Ellis]

Oh, that would be the Pass of Kirath Ungol.

[Barliman Butterbur]

Oh, we've got some questions on that one for later, for sure. So, yeah, so that's been the challenging one. What about your favorite individual sculpture so far, if you have one? I know it's like asking which of your seven children is your favorite, but, you know, you gotta try.

[Leonard Ellis]

I still have such a soft spot for my Minas Turret. That was the first collectible where I started to meld my two passions of sculpting and digital modeling.

[Daniel Falconer]

Okay.

[Leonard Ellis]

And it worked out really, really well. Not only that, I was really privileged enough to be able to go and see the bigature and. And, you know, take measurements of the, I think one of the most amazing bigotes ever created for film. There's something about Minas Turreth. It is massive. It is a beautiful, beautiful, big bigature. And, you know, translating that into my little tiny or decent sized Minas Turret was. Was really special. And so that's. That's the one collectible that. That I have, that. That moves around, that always has its pride of place in my eyeline on. On my work desk at work. Because it still speaks to me. It's. It's one that I would truly, truly love to return to and do a bigger version of it, you know, and. And put that. That white tree in that. That did irk me all that time that, you know, because. And that was one of the funny things is that the tree was going to be so small on that one, and so they just decided that we couldn't really put it in. It's got more of a blob to represent it. Yeah. So being able to put that in would be really great. Yeah. It's followed closely by Helm's Deep Scale.

[Daniel Falconer]

I guess that tree would be, what, a millimeter?

[Leonard Ellis]

It was a couple of mils across and completely impractical to react.

[Sean Marchese]

Yeah, yeah.

[Leonard Ellis]

Which was unfortunate, but. But, yeah, that's. I. I really love that. That sculpture, that environment. And. And I was. I was so pleased when it was re. Released a few years back for a while, because it's. It's such an honor for me when. When people show their displays and I see it there. It's such a big part of Tolkien Lawn to be able to, you know, do such a beautiful version of it. Yeah, I love that one. It's a real soft spot for me.

[Sean Marchese]

Yeah.

[Barliman Butterbur]

Great answer.

[Sean Marchese]

That's a great answer. I mean, such an important location for the story and such an amazing visual. Striking visual imagery in that. No place in those films looks quite like Minas Tirith does. Even Osgiliath, which maybe comes a little bit closest, but it's ruined. But like, Minas Tirith is still vibrant. It's still glowing white and just.

[Daniel Falconer]

Just.

[Sean Marchese]

Yeah, that's. That's great.

[Daniel Falconer]

Another beautiful Alan Lee design. So. Yeah. And his. Alan is an extraordinary. I mean, goodness, he's an extraordinary artist. It's amazing watching him work because he just sort of draws his way into it. You know, he'll have a huge sheet of paper that covers an entire desk, and you'll just sort of start in one corner and drift across. His pencil just drifts across the page over a few hours and this. This vision suddenly appears. And he talked about exploring middle. Exploring Min Turith and about how he designed it, where basically he imagined walking in the front gate and he drew what he would see. And then he said, then I would turn left and walk down the street and draw what I would see. And he just imagined walking up through the. The seven tiers of the city and each. Each new corner that he went around, he drew what he could see. My mind doesn't work that way.

[Sean Marchese]

Right. Yeah, that.

[Daniel Falconer]

That blew it. I was amazed when he said that's how he did it. It's like he. He had designed it in his head and then he visited it, you know, Extraordinary.

[Barliman Butterbur]

And he says it all so matter of factly and so quietly.

[Sean Marchese]

Right.

[Barliman Butterbur]

Well, I just. I turned around the corner and I just saw what I. Yeah.

[Leonard Ellis]

What I drew.

[Barliman Butterbur]

What I saw.

[Daniel Falconer]

Yeah.

[Barliman Butterbur]

We've had a chance to talk with him.

[Daniel Falconer]

Alan Lee Story. I'd love to tell you.

[Barliman Butterbur]

Yes, please do. We love Alan Lee Story Stories picture.

[Daniel Falconer]

Of this extraordinary man. And. And you did a Wonderful impression of him because. So he's so beautifully quietly spoken.

[Barliman Butterbur]

He's so soft spoken.

[Daniel Falconer]

Yeah, but, but I remember coming into the. The studio one day and, and he was sitting there drawing a little picture of himself wearing a little cheese cutter hat. And I asked him what he was up to and he said, oh, I. I was in, in town on the weekend and I saw this hat in a store and I wondered how I would look wearing it. It now, you or I would go into that store and put that hat on and maybe look in the mirror. Alan went away and thought about it and drew himself wearing it to decide, isn't that wonderful?

[Barliman Butterbur]

It is. I also want to introduce him to the concept of a selfie, but, you know, I don't want to disabuse him of, you know, the opportunity to do that. Wow, that's. That's tremendous. And that's so Alan Lee.

[Daniel Falconer]

Yeah, that's beautiful.

[Barliman Butterbur]

We're going to go back to the films and Daniel for a little bit. I want to move from the Jackson films that you're perhaps best known for in terms of like, for our listeners, to a more recent project, something I really enjoyed, the latest Middle Earth work from Weta, the War of the Rohirrim. The film really achieved a strong sense of continuity with what we'd seen in Middle Earth before. You know, you mentioned Alan Lee's design, so places like Edoras and Helm's Deep really felt like the same versions, just in a different medium. I'd love to hear how you went about building that continuity into the film. And then really kind of the big part to this question is, what's different about designing for animation as opposed to designing for live action.

[Daniel Falconer]

Yeah, great question. So I, I had no experience with anime really before, before getting to work on that project, so it was really interesting to me and a fun challenge to get my head around that medium because it's not one I'm terribly familiar with. I've watched a few anime films and that sort of thing, and I'm certainly, you know, a great fan of the Miyazaki movies in particular, you know, Spirited Away and My Never Thought at All and Princess Mononoke, that's those sort of things. But. But it's not a world that I've been hugely exposed to, nor am I hugely knowledgeable about the process of making them. So that was a real education, but a fun one. Kenji Kamiyama, the director, his, his directive to, to me when I came on board was. And to all the designers, the Western designers working on the Film was just think of it as a live action movie and design as if it was a live action movie, he said. And, and our animators, our art artists will, will translate what you're doing, but don't second guess the process, he said, because you do what you do best and we'll do what we do best and we'll, you know, we'll, we'll see what we get, get from that. So that's great. So my role on the project when I first came on board was to provide some assistance to the team in Japan who were making the movie. Obviously they had a great affection for the, for the Lord of the Rings movies, the Ed P. Jackson films, but because they weren't involved in making them, they weren't aware of a lot of the choices that went on behind the scenes into why things look the way they certain, you know, how things turned out the way they did. And so what they wanted was somebody to look over their designs and, and give them feedback on that and help massage it to make it feel as if there was a continuity because they wanted it to be part of the same world as the Jackson films just 200 odd years earlier. So my role was one to provide reference materials, which again was great fun raiding the archives and pulling stuff out. Artists and then also just giving feedback on what they'd done to say, you know, you know what, maybe if you just change this a little bit, it would look more parsimonious with and that kind of thing. So which was great fun. And I learned a lot about anime because of course the other challenge about anime is that for moving elements on the page, on the screen, you need to get away with the fewest lines possible. And that can be quite challenging when it butts up against the world of Tolkien as we've designed it for the Jackson movies, which are all about granular detail. Yeah. So their artists had that challenge of finding, you know, how much detail to put in an object, how little could you get away with and yet have it still feel like it's part of that same world where I think they were able to really go to town was in the background art because that didn't necessarily have to move. And so you have very, very lavish background artwork that some very famous anime background artists have worked on. And then you had, you know, slightly more simplified moving elements, you know, the characters and their, the Rohirrim, you know, riding on their horses and that kind of stuff. But it was still, you know, hugely daunting and on qu a tight time frame. The film is produced on certainly a shorter time frame than most anime films. So they had to find lots of different, clever, innovative ways to speed that process along. For me, it was fun going back to Middle Earth in this medium because it was also the time scale being slightly different. The fact that it was set earlier meant that we could revisit places that were familiar to us, like Isengard and Edoras and the Medis held Dunhar Narrow, but also tweaked them just a little bit to show that it was a different time and that things were a little bit different. So Eisenguard's much more overgrown. You know, Saruman hasn't yet moved in and actually tidied up the grounds and turned out and land, let alone what he later did, of course, when he started strip mining the place. But so in this time, it's a wild place. You know, the. The, the tower itself is locked and the Dunlendings are using its grounds basically as an encampment. But. But it's essentially a wild place. And so, you know, it was really with the other designers on the project to imagine what that might be like, you know, as the river burst through and created a land of marshlands and fens or something like that. Likewise Meduseld and Edas. The director was quite clear. He said, I want it to look like a thriving place. It should be bigger and more colorful. And you know, when we see it in the time of King Theoden, the Rohirrim are a little bit reduced versus what they were hundreds of years earlier. And when Helm was king and then when we came to things like Helm's Deep, there were practical action reasons for it to look a little different too. The director wanted a taller wall so that that presented more of a challenge for the invaders. Get over. And so while we have to try and think, rationalize, how do you make that work without changing Ellen Lee's beautiful design for Helm's Deep and also within world, how does it make sense for the wall to be taller in the past than it is in the future? Surely the Rohirrim haven't dismantled. That makes no sense at all. And so sometimes my role involved coming up with suggestions that would try and solve those kind of practical problems while not stepping out of line with what's right to the intrinsic to the world. Right. And so, for example, with the wall, the solution we came up with was, well, we know that that valley is hugely subject to erosion because we see in the Lord of the Rings, we see Amir and Gandalf ride down that scree Slope, which is all basically rock work tumbling down the side that after the great winter there was probably floods and all that kind of stuff as all the snow melt came out, you know, happened. And. And so the notion was, well, maybe the valley was somewhat deeper earlier. And. And it's. And the valley floor has. Has risen by the time you get to Theoden's kingship, and that maybe in Helm's time it was a little lower, which would then give the director the taller wall that he needed for the action shots that he wanted in the movie, things like that. So it was. Wow. It was. Yeah, it was a really, really engaging and fun process. Process. And. And one of the things that I think was most exciting to me was that kind of that crossover between, you know, traditional live action movies and an animated medium. The those of us who had been around in the early days and then also the new artists bringing their own visions to it and the sort of east meets west kind of, you know, Japanese artists and New Zealand and English artists and so on, all kind of working on it together. And. And it was cross generational. It was really cool, actually. It was one of the most fun projects I've had to work on because it was both familiar and fresh at the same time.

[Barliman Butterbur]

Yeah, you mentioned intergenerational. It just kind of came to mind that there are going to be a lot of artists and people working on that film whose first exposure to Tolkien were the films that you did that you worked on back at. I mean, that's just fantastic. And what a full circle opportunity for your work to influence your work. Yeah, I mean, that's great.

[Daniel Falconer]

I love that. Yeah. And also get it reinterpreted through fresh eyes, which I think is also very valuable too. You know, talking talks about. About, you know, other. Other minds and hands, you know, contributing to his world. And I think that that was a great expression of it. So. Yeah, that was really fun. Thank you for asking about it.

[Sean Marchese]

Yeah, that's great.

[Barliman Butterbur]

Thank you for answering.

[Sean Marchese]

Awesome answer.

[Barliman Butterbur]

Yeah, great story.

[Daniel Falconer]

Story.

[Barliman Butterbur]

Yeah.

[Sean Marchese]

Well, we've got another project of yours that we want to ask you about because I think since 2012, you've been helping Weta Workshop tell its own story. Right. You've been writing about the design process. You've written books like Alan mentioned earlier. There was the An Unexpected Journey Chronicles, art and design. There were things like the Hobbit, the Battle of the Five Armies, the Art of War, things like that. There's the incredibly spectacular Middle Earth from script to screen. And more recently there's been the Art of the Lord of the the War of the Rohirrim.

[Daniel Falconer]

Yeah.

[Sean Marchese]

How did you become Weta's unofficial or maybe official chronicler? And what's it been like for you to not only do the work, do the design work that you've been doing for, you know, 20 plus years, but also to have a chance now to reflect on that work by writing about it? It's very Bilbo Baggins, I have to say. But we'd love to hear about, about that.

[Daniel Falconer]

Oh, my goodness. I never thought of the Bilbo connection before and that's awesome. I love that. That's going to be my answer from now on when anybody asks me this. That's. That's genius. Thank you. There are all these stories that pop up behind the scenes because, you know, we're, when we're working on these movies, that in itself is a journey and a story worth telling. And so when I can't even remember when the first conversation happened about behind the scenes books, but I put my hand up because it's really fun to share that stuff. And whenever I go to see a movie and you see what's on the screen, you know that everything has been a choice. And for every one design that you see on the screen, for every suit of armor you see on the screen, you know that there were dozens of others probably offered up and the director chose one. Well, I'm always interested in why, and I think those are interesting and fun stories to tell. So I put my hand up when there was a chance to write behind the scenes books because I was often in the room when those conversations were going on. I'm like, well, I'd love to talk about that and I'd love to interview my colleagues and friends and co workers on these projects and learn more about them and then share that with the world. So. And luckily, when you've got, you know, Middle Earth is so rich, there's so much to share. There's so much to, you know, even the books as chunky as we made them, there's so much more that doesn't, you know, we couldn't fit on the page.

[Barliman Butterbur]

I can only imagine how much more there was. Right?

[Daniel Falconer]

Yeah. So it's great. It's just really, really fun sharing that stuff. And it's another, it's another opportunity to have a conversation about Middle Earth and tell those stories and talk with people about it. So that's really where it came from. I have no special qualification other than I was there and put my hand up and say, yes, please. I'LL do that. It keeps me working in Middle Earth longer. Right?

[Barliman Butterbur]

That's, you know that right there is reason enough to say yes to the project, I would imagine. Absolutely. All right, well, once again, it's time for a quick break, and when we come back, we've got some more questions for Leonard what if a single cent called you back to Middle Earth? To a quiet corner of a roadside tavern where a weathered ranger watches stealthily from the shadows hidden beside the embers of a dying fire and the low flicker of candlelight where the scent of bread baking and hearty stout brewing lingers in the air, mingling with the ranger's scent of well worn leather pipe smoke and the whisper of mossy roads that clings to his cloak from the hush of ancient forests where elves lightly trembling tread alive with scents of wild herbs underfoot and the pungent aroma of cedar bark. Beside Mythology Candles presents the Characters of Middle Earth Collection in partnership with Middle Earth Enterprises, an officially licensed series of candles featuring artisanal fragrances inspired by the beloved characters and places from the Lord of the Rings. Each candle is hand poured in America, made from non toxic pet safe ingredients and carefully chosen scent profiles crafted to bring the realm of Middle Earth home to you. Light the way and let the journey begin. A special offer for listeners of the Prancing Pony podcast use code PONY10 at checkout for 10% off your first order at mythologycandles.com that's mythology with an I E M Y T H O L O g I e candles.com Code Pony 10 Race the rudders.

[Daniel Falconer]

Raise the sails.

[Leonard Ellis]

Race the sails.

[Barliman Butterbur]

Captain, an unidentified ship is approaching.

[Daniel Falconer]

Over Roger, wait.

[Barliman Butterbur]

Is that an enterprise sales solution? Reach sales professionals, not professional sailors. With LinkedIn ads, you can target the right people by industry, job title and more. Start converting your B2B audience today. Spend $250 on your first campaign and get a free $250 credit for the next one. Get started [e-mail] Campaign terms and conditions apply. Folks, if you're enjoying the PPP, please consider supporting the show by joining the Fellowship of the Podcast. It's what gives me the time and resources to work on making this show the best that it can be. Now, when you join, you become a part of an amazing discord community that includes includes live episode recordings, hangouts every month you can get episode postscripts, ad free episodes, free merch and more.

[Sean Marchese]

You can also become part of our Questions after Nightfall episodes or even join us as a guest in the North Wing. So Please go to patreon.com prancingponypod to show your support and join the fellowship of the podcast.

[Barliman Butterbur]

And of course, you can always help us out by giving us a rating and review on Apple Podcasts and a rating on Spotify. And please recommend us to your friends.

[Sean Marchese]

All right, well, I want to get back to this discussion and hear more about collectibles. Alan, I think you've got another question for Leonard here.

[Barliman Butterbur]

We've got a few here, actually, you'd mentioned earlier, Cirru th ungol and I really want to linger on that for a bit. It is an absolutely incredible piece that you're wrapping up work on. We've seen this incredible three minute video on YouTube. We get to take a look at just a ton of detail, the architecture, the aging and the damage. I mean, it looks like a place that tiny, mean little orcs have been living in for, you know, centuries. How do you even begin the process of translating? And this kind of goes back to your Minas Tirith question. Translating an environment that big into a collectible sculpture that fits on, well, very large shelves, but probably more like tabletops. But how do you translate that? And yes, I still want to get the technical aspects in the art, but I also want to just kind of get your thought process in this. How do you know what will make for a good piece?

[Leonard Ellis]

I guess the thing that sets it off is usually I am, I'm told by our collectibles, you know, the sales division, that they want a collectible that is going to fit into this category. So we should be roughly this size. In the case of Kurth Uncle, I was told it's, it's got to be about the size of the doors of Durin. And that's sort of where I go. That's where that's my starting point.

[Daniel Falconer]

Okay.

[Leonard Ellis]

Part of the beauty of the way that I work now doing a digital build is that I can make it any size, which is really fun. And that was something that we started off when doing Helm's Deep because we weren't quite sure how big we wanted to make it. I was told about yay big by this big, so I could go a little bit bigger than the Minas Turreth Baradur size base. I was like, yep, sweet. Okay. And then we tried to. I did a quick digital build up of it and then I just printed out a whole lot of those, which through a process which one of our swordsmiths, Chris Menges, uses a lot, which is CAD Cardboard Aided design.

[Sean Marchese]

And I love it.

[Barliman Butterbur]

Cardboard added design. That's great.

[Sean Marchese]

I was like, I think I know what that acronym means. Oh wait, no, that's another one.

[Daniel Falconer]

No.

[Leonard Ellis]

And so we did a. I then just print out on card a whole lot of different sizes and I think Dan, you came around and a few others and we decided, okay, from these sizes that I've got, we're going to make it this big. And that, that really helps. In the case of Kirath Ungol, I had some measurements from the bigature that and I just started to, you know, ease my maths work at 1/10 scale to the bigot. And that was my starting point. And it's always handy when you've got some, some measurements to go with it's. And that was a, a tricky environment is putting it very politely. There are a lot of angles on that, a lot. And you know, the one thing I, I didn't have at the time was a absolute perfect topped down view which.

[Daniel Falconer]

I would have killed for. Yeah, yeah.

[Barliman Butterbur]

Give me some architects plans. Right. I see all of that detail.

[Daniel Falconer]

Yeah.

[Leonard Ellis]

Oh yeah. So it was crazy just going through all the measurements and there were these awesome pictures of the original bigoture being worked on where you've got some of the crew who are still at Weta, but much younger busy working on this environment. It was so cool to see that it's just this massive blue foam structure that they're working on. It's like, oh my God, there's Petro. Look at him. And yeah, and so once I got the scale to where I was going that then just helps with how much detail I can put in. Because if I did build it at 1/10 scale to the bigger chair, it would have been about 70, 75 centimeters tall to the top of the tower, which was large because that would have given it, you know, about as long for how long the collectible would be. So it's about half that size. So I built it at 1/20 scale to the bigger church. What the actual scale is, I don't know. The bigoture was probably at about 35th ish scale, probably 20th scale.

[Daniel Falconer]

Okay.

[Leonard Ellis]

So yeah, you can, you can do your math to that one. It's. It's a bit hard. There was no, it's very rare that on some of these plans that I get this collectible or this bigotry is built at 1-870 scale. You don't get.

[Daniel Falconer]

Right.

[Leonard Ellis]

Yeah, yeah, you get at least this big. That sort of dictates some of the scale that I work to.

[Daniel Falconer]

There were some fun little details on that too, weren't there in terms of like, things that John Howe, I believe, designed Kirathungal, but little things that he put in. Little details. Little. Yeah, yeah. I know one that sprang to my mind. I've seen it in the design drawings and some photographs of the set. I'm not sure whether it's in the final bigature, whether it made into your collectible, but little things like there were these channels where you could roll like a big, Big a ball down them, a big weighted stone ball down them. As it is, if you're defending the place and crush people underneath. Things like that. Yeah, those sort of discoveries, as you.

[Leonard Ellis]

Were going through the archives, there were lots of that sort of thing. And there was an amazing amount of pick of like, just pencil sketches from them that they were not used and which are like, just really cool designs in their own. It was a bit of a challenge as well because of the. The orcs, of course, have taken over the place and they've got 10.

[Daniel Falconer]

Right.

[Leonard Ellis]

And the scaffolding and all that sort of thing. And so that. That's part of the design challenge as well, is incorporating that. Because you can, you know, if I was making it at 1/10 to the bigger chub, we probably could have put in a lot more of the. The scaffolding or the. Just the constructions of. With poles lashed together in at the scale that I was working at, I. I had to use where they had put a whole lot of tents in that to help help make it as a moldable product. Because part of what we. In the challenge that we work to is that each time we introduce a new component, it adds a new mold, which of course then increases the cost. And so that's something that we have to be aware of because we, as a designer of a product that is going to be for sale, we have to be very aware of what our final price point is. And that leads all the way through to our manufacturing partners. So that is always something that we have to be aware of, which is why you will see things that are, you know, while it would be a just some sort of gantry scaffolding, it may be covered with, you know, tarpaulins, you know, just as an example, because you can mold something that looks like a tent a lot easier than something that looks like. So that's. While I tried to incorporate as many of those sort of things as I could. You know, the general scaffolding, it's. It's. You must please forgive me, where I've had to dress it to look more like the tent that absolutely scattered the place.

[Daniel Falconer]

Okay.

[Leonard Ellis]

And that was what was really cool as well is just how much clutter they put into to make it look like a lived in.

[Daniel Falconer]

Yeah, yeah.

[Leonard Ellis]

Just how much gets put in. Yeah, it's a phenomenal work by the set dresses on, you know, on set. I can say that much. It was. There were some great shots of it and. But yes, my primary focus on that still is the bigger chair that was built which many years ago when I saw for the first time when I was doing the research on Minas Turith and there was Kurath Angol and oh boy, did that light a little fire and struck a chord in me. It was one thing that I've been wanting to build for a very long time. And, and you know, I would like what collectible we're going to do next. Kirith Ungol. Oh, so you're going to do Helm's Deep. I'm like, oh, I remember this.

[Daniel Falconer]

I remember the meetings. And you know, Leonard would always be so can we do Kirath uncle next? And you know, I could see the visible deflation on this on his corby face, you know, when someone else would suggest something else that would get bumped up and well, we'll do, we'll do Kirathungal next year. But you finally got to do it.

[Leonard Ellis]

Finally got to do it.

[Sean Marchese]

And yes.

[Leonard Ellis]

Yeah, it's, it has been really well received and really appreciative of the, the, that little video that was done, that little promo video, because so many of my friends that had no idea what I did. You know, sometimes you've got, you know, you're, you're like, I enjoy going, hanging out to like music festivals and that and I've got to know a lot of people and you know, Wellington has a great, you know, little willy rave community that we go to and you know, know you get to know people and they're like, I had no idea you did this.

[Barliman Butterbur]

That's so cool.

[Leonard Ellis]

That is, you'll say, work at Weta. Oh, you're a sculptor. Okay, there we go. You know, that's where it ends. But when people actually see what you could do. So it was really a great little video and I'm really appreciative of the guys in our media department for putting that one together.

[Barliman Butterbur]

Yeah, I was about to say fun to watch really well made video too. I mean, I want to see more of those. So definitely put a note into your media team because that was well done and we'll be sure to include a link to that in the show notes for the episode as well.

[Leonard Ellis]

Thank you very much.

[Barliman Butterbur]

All right, well, do you have any information as to the release date for that Kirith Ungol piece? And is there a way for people to get on the list or pre order it or anything?

[Leonard Ellis]

Yeah, you can go to our website right now. It's up for pre order.

[Barliman Butterbur]

Okay. Well, I guess I know what I'm doing after this interview.

[Leonard Ellis]

Yeah. And it's well on its way through production. I've seen some production songs, samples which have come through and in it. Yeah, I'm really, really pleased with the way it's turning out. It's looking great in all its good spiky glory.

[Daniel Falconer]

Will it be coming home with you?

[Leonard Ellis]

I. I hope so. If not, I'll have to build a LEGO version. Lego, please make one. Yeah, that's. I think that's part of the charm of building that one is that it's. I love LEGO castles. I've got a lot of of LEGO castles. Do not tell my wife. And that's the one thing that I'm gonna have to at some point build because it is. It's so squarey angley that it would translate really well to a decent sized lego.

[Barliman Butterbur]

Yeah, I bet it would actually.

[Leonard Ellis]

Lego, if you're listening, please. But yeah, it was a fantastic one. I'm really pleased to have done that with.

[Sean Marchese]

Awesome. All right, well, I know we talked about War of the Rohirrim with Dan just a moment ago. Leonard, your turn. I want to talk about War of the Rohirrim collectibles. We talked earlier about the Helm series and of course, there is the. I love saying this, the Helm of King Helm. Right, Helm's Helm. Can you talk to us a little bit about that piece and maybe if you have any other collectibles for War of the Rohirrim in the work?

[Leonard Ellis]

Well, that piece was sculpted by Sean Bolton. I think Dan could actually speak a lot to this one because he was probably a lot more involved in the design than I was. That was then used by Shaun, but it was, you know, Sean's done a beautiful reproduction of what we feel the helmet would fit into our helmet line because of course, that's what Helms have. That. That realism versus, you know, know, what you would get portrayed in. In the War of the Hurren film. So it's, you know, it's. And it's. It's a great little. Not to. That it was really cool being able to actually do some. Some work on making a collectible for that. That film. But as far as other Ones coming through. I know that Dan did a lot of concepts and on, on various things coming through, which would have been amazing, but I'm not sure if we've got any more collectibles coming soon.

[Daniel Falconer]

I don't think there's anything we can announce today, but people have particular things that they would like to see. It's. I would always, as I say, the production of collectibles is a conversation, you know, it's people tell us what they want and, and, and hopefully where to workshop and step up and make it for them. So I certainly have ideas about things I'd love to see next and. But if people want to tell, you know, contact the company and reach out and tell them what they would like to see next, then we're always keen to, to get to hear. So reach out on social media or whatever and let us know what you want next. We have ideas. We'd love to know what you think.

[Sean Marchese]

All right, that's great. Yeah, we put that out there to our listeners and I'm sure you'll be.

[Barliman Butterbur]

Hearing from some of them and us. Yeah, I have ideas too.

[Daniel Falconer]

It's funny you say the helm of King Helm, because I know there was some debate at some point what should we actually call that, but it is the helm of King Helm, so that does make sense. But it was a fun one because of course it was originally designed to be as a little two dimensional design for an anime film. And so then what we really had to do, as Leonard was alluding to, is try and imagine what the realistic version of that would look like if it was in a realistic film, in a live action movie. And ultimately that's what it was channeled through. As Leonard said, Sean Bolton's amazing sculpting ability. Yeah, looking forward to adding to that one to my shelf too.

[Leonard Ellis]

Yeah.

[Barliman Butterbur]

Well, I was about to ask when Sean asked Leonard, so is kid or th uncle going home with you? And he said, you don't know. My first thought was, well, actually the big question, Dan, is is it going home with you? We know the negotiations are going to have to come into place. We do have one last piece to ask you about. You are adding a new piece to the Masters collection. Now, before we ask you about the piece specifically, let us know kind of a little bit about what the Masters collection represents. What's the difference between the usual one six sculpts and then the limited edition ones, the numbered ones like my Theoden on Snowman Domain and these really incredible, amazing, breathtaking master collection pieces?

[Daniel Falconer]

Well, all the gloves come off, really, with the Master's collection, don't they? I mean, that's the opportunity to really indulge with less, with fewer limitations, because. Okay, it's. Yeah, yeah.

[Barliman Butterbur]

So that idea about pricing and worrying about that kind of like, forget about that. We're just doing this, you know, to the max.

[Leonard Ellis]

That's correct. And so they're. They're also. So they're in lower numbers. We're not going to deny that, but that's just part of. That's our more exclusive product. And the lower numbers are partly as well because of the complexity of some of the pieces. And that's what drives that, because it's more manageable for us to get the higher quality that we, of course, are always aim to put out by just having that smaller production run. And so we can just be a bit more focused on each individual one as it comes through. But, yeah, it. It really allows us just to, you know, just push the envelope on. On the size of some of the collectibles they've, yeah. Will not deny, been getting a bit bigger. When you. When you look at how tiny our. How Jamie's beautiful little golem was as our first Master, it was. Now it's. It really, really allows everyone in the collectibles departments, both in the sculpting departments and the manufacturing side, to, you know, roll the sleeves up and really get involved.

[Sean Marchese]

Excellent, excellent. Well, on that note, then, let's talk about the piece itself. So it's the new sculpt in the Masters collection. It's the Fellowship of the Ring. And this piece features all nine members of the Fellowship at a key moment in their quest. They're climbing a shattered staircase in Moriarty. Can you tell us a little bit more about this piece? And by the time this episode drops in September, all the information is going to be available, so you don't have to worry about spoilers. Just tell us whatever you can about it.

[Leonard Ellis]

Yeah, well, I seem to have started talking, but I'll carry on. There's often a lot of thought as to what we're going to be doing for our next Masters collection, and sometimes confusion as to what we're doing is like, you know, is this the right thing? I shouldn't say confusion, but, you know, but. But this was something that Dan had, you know, long wanted to do, the complete Fellowship. So I'm going to pass this over to you, Dan.

[Daniel Falconer]

Oh, you're very gracious. I'm sure people are sick of hearing me talk, but, yeah, it was. Well, Richard had challenged Richard Taylor. Our boss at Widow Workshop had challenged us to come up with a way to do the fellowship and the Masters collection because it's something that he'd long wanted to do as well. And, and the initial ideas were something very much along the line of something that would be like a table runner, you know, a big, long collectible sculpture with all the nine characters spread out, maybe build a pony as well. But it would take up a huge amount of horizontal real estate. And those of us who are collectors know that, that getting rarer and rarer in our collection spaces. Right. It's hard to find space for things that take up that much line. So really, Richard challenged us to come up with an idea for how we might do it that would be less of a horizontal space hog on the shelf. And that's how the notion of making it a vertical statue came along. And so we were trying to think of, well, how could we do that? How can we stack our fellowship members in some meaningful way? And the notion, well, perhaps it's an off screen moment. In Moria, we know that they spend three days traveling through those mines. Perhaps there's a moment where we can kind of encapsulate hint at little moments from other scenes in the movie, but bring it all together into this one singular moment that's not necessarily representative of anything directly on screen so much as it's evocative of that whole space and the mind and the headspace that the various different fellowship members are in at that time. So there's a little bit of storytelling going on with those characters wandering through the space and interacting with it and interacting with each other. And you get a sense of what's going through their minds individually in it. So I did an initial concept and an early little miniature sculpture for it just to sort of get that idea across. And that was, that was well received by the group and Richard liked it. And then essentially I, I stepped back at that time. So I, I, I haven't really touched this thing in a couple of years. I'm much less plugged in as, as I've alluded to. I'm, I'm actually at the workshop really only in a consulting role. Nowadays I do a lot of work outside the Widow workshop, so, so I, that was quite lovely for me from the point of view that I got to be an observer as this thing was getting pulled together by all the different members of the, of the, all the different artists and the collectibles team all working on it, all contributing this wonderful fellowship, if you like, of artists all working on it together, everybody taking a different character and taking it, pulling it forward and as we've talked about before, other people and introducing their ideas and taking it a step further. So it's moved a very long way from the initial idea that I had and taken on a life of its own and in the hands of many others, other creative people. And it's been a joy to watch that come together. And I'm amazed by what Leonard and the rest of the team have all have all crafted. So, yeah, it's fun now that everybody gets to see it because this one was a couple of years in the making, wasn't it?

[Leonard Ellis]

It was, yeah. From the initial concept that you did. And then the process just involved a lot of. A lot of like, polyfoam cuts. There's a lot of armature wire held together with epoxy puzzling, you know, for the characters. There was this one point that we had most of the figures done up with armature wire and epoxy putty joints, but cutouts of their faces on them, which was quite funny. But it's just that sort of thing that was required to get it because it is quite tall. It's. Golly, I forget the measurement now. I think to the top of the stair itself is about 80, 85 centimeters a second. So.

[Daniel Falconer]

Wow.

[Leonard Ellis]

And then you've got, of course, Gandalf standing on top of that. Gandalf and Legalis being the tallest ones.

[Daniel Falconer]

And it's all about what's over 3ft tall, isn't it? You know, meter.

[Leonard Ellis]

So that would. That would be what, 80 plus? Yeah. So it's about 110 centimeters or so. Is amazing.

[Barliman Butterbur]

Not going to fit on my shelves, but. Not that I won't try, but, you know.

[Leonard Ellis]

Yeah, it was a beautiful resolution to that problem of how you. You portray the Fellowship. I remember seeing one of Dan's first concepts of the. The stonework and it was like, oh, that's amazing. But part of it, as well as the coloring on it, it was, you know, through the debate because that's not long after they've come through the doors of Durin. But prior to they've come to. I think it's before they've hit Balin's Tomb and they've. You've got, of course, Gollum following after them. So. So Gollum is, you know, you know, as you may say, the Honor of primary 10th member of this fellowship. He's down the bottom and, you know, it's a beautiful little sculpt by Boal down the bottom you know, peeking over at Aragorn and. But it's, it's just so cool the way you've got these characters interacting. It's, you know, you've got, you know, the way you see Boromir bending down, helping Sam, and there's just so many beautiful little moments and, you know, with Gimli, as he's looking at the helmet of a, of a fallen Dwarf, wondering if, you know, maybe he knows that dwarf. And it's, yeah, it's, it really is such a beautiful, spiraling turntable of a piece.

[Barliman Butterbur]

Yeah, really looking forward to seeing more on that. All right, well, let's go ahead and move into some closing questions as longtime Tolkien fans, because really hearing those stories at the beginning of the episode was great. Knowing how long you've been in Middle Earth, how do you keep yourself inspired? What do you do tangibly to keep your creativity fresh so that you can keep bringing Tolkien's world to life visually? And then sort of as a follow up to that. This is a bigger sort of broader question. When you're employed doing what you love, it is possible to get burned out, even if it is something you love as much as Middle Earth. So I want to know how you each avoid or minimize that burnout possibility.

[Daniel Falconer]

I think for me, it's the love of the, of the source material that keeps me coming back, back and the. So I, If I'm ever uninspired, all I have to do is pick up those books and read. And it never. Tolkien never fails to light a fire in me. He's just, he always delivers. It's. There's a reason we're all still passionate about this stuff. You know, decades on from when these books have been written, they still relevant. They still have messages that resonate with us. They still have just, just his word craft is like something else. And they still, for someone like me who was excited by seeing poster art for the Bakshi mov, they still evoke this wonderful imagery in my imagination. So, so to me, it's just coming back to that again and again and again and going back in and finding new things. And of course, you know, the publishers keep bringing out new books that, with, with, with new manuscripts and letters and things like that that only deepen the world. You know, there was something recently that came out where someone had, and I'm not going to credit who it was, but there was somebody who'd published a letter in which Tolkien was talking about Scartha, the world worm. You know, scuttle the worm for those who don't Know the lore as deeply, can't bring it to mind. Is, is the dragon that in the appendices of the Lord of the Rings, it's talked about one of the ancestors of the Rohirrim from. Who was living up in the north before the, before they became the Rohirrim, essentially. But the people who would. Who were their ancestors were faced with this dragon and, and he slew this particular dragon. And, and that was pretty much, you know, apart from a couple of senses and the sentences and the appendices, that's pretty much all we knew about it. But now all these wonderful letters have come out where Tolkien describes what a cold Drake is. You know, because he mentions that scarf is a cold Drake. And the thought was, well, I think a lot of us just assume, well, is that just a dragon that can't breathe fire? No, no, my goodness. All distorted to what a cold Drake is. And I won't spoil it, but if you're interested in that, go look it up because it's really, really a fund and wonderful discovery. But. But it's all those little things that just keep coming up. This was just the same year. That world is so rich and so deep. There's never not something to be inspired by. That's my answer. How about you, Leonard?

[Leonard Ellis]

I'm really thankful to be working where I am working because it gives me the opportunity to, you know, do what I do every day. But part of what I do every day is I walk through the weapons wall. That's just, you know, the weapons wall to me is. Is the one thing before I ever stepped foot through the doors of Weta was, you know, I have to see the weapons wall. We've got all these. These different things.

[Daniel Falconer]

And now just describe the. What the. Take a moment to describe what the weapons wall is for someone who's not seen.

[Leonard Ellis]

All right, so the weapons wall is virtually every wall in Widow workshop.

[Sean Marchese]

But.

[Leonard Ellis]

There'S the one. There's one area that when anyone says the weapons wall, this is a corridor that is alongside our lunchroom and a few of the other offices that leads down to the sculpting room that is just lined on both sides with swords from. On the one side of Lord of the Rings. On the other side, there is from some of the whole of the other movies we've made, from the Last Samurai to There's Narnia. There is a great wall. There is. There's just so many different weapons. And at one point there was the Samaritan from Hellboy. And that's. That's Still. But there's. But you've got the Lord of the Rings weapons wall and you've got Lambda and you've got Strider's sword, you've got Heterogram, you've got Guthwine, you've got them all on the wall there. Not only that, you carry on through the weapons wall, you go through Mould Shop, you swing a right and you go into the armory where Peter Lyon is on the wall in Peter Lyon's room, which you can see if you come through into the windows in the workshop. And you look through the window on the far side, past Chris Mengey's and all those desks, you can see some of the original steel swords that were used in the film. And at any time, I can walk into that room and I can pick up one of those swords and you've got the absolute treasure of Peter Lyons being right there, who, whenever we make a collectible sword or he's going to make one of his master swords, you've got. He will bring out the original piece of paper that, you know, 30. 20 something. 30 something years ago. 30 something. He used those dimensions and sketches to create Glamdring, the Witch King sword, Strider sword. You've got this absolute history with Ant. And I love the swords. They were, you know, like a lot of people, you know, you know, young men especially, it was like, oh, that's a cool sword. Fantasy sword. And, you know, it's got big dragon wings or it's got, you know, massive jewels on it and all that sort of thing. And. And then the Lord of the Rings came out and, yeah, you have the beauty of a fantasy sword in Glamdring, which, you know, that. That long leaf blade, you know, you hold that sword, it's like, this is a sword.

[Daniel Falconer]

Yeah.

[Leonard Ellis]

And the simplicity and beauty of Strider's sword, you know, that's one of, you know, the simplest swords, but it's without doubt one of my absolute favorites. And so that is. That is one way that, you know, I keep, you know, I can find motivation for. Although we've been doing Lord of the Rings, I mean, we are very fortunate at Weta to have other licenses. You know, we've just recently started doing partner with Games Workshop on their warhammer. And that was cool for me because when I was back in South Africa, you know, and I had just learned about the Lord of the Rings, it wasn't long after that that I found out they were making a movie in New Zealand. Wasn't long after that that I opened the Pages of amazing figure modeler. And there was an ad for some of the collectibles and I saw Gandalf. I was like, oh my God. And then, you know, Games Workshop were releasing the Lord, you know, battle game, which I had to get. And so I. Yeah, you did.

[Daniel Falconer]

Yeah.

[Leonard Ellis]

And. And it's, you know, it's just permeated life through all that time. So, you know, it's funny how working at, you know, Weta now and, you know, working with our friends at Games Workshop on these, just how that little is all intertwined and. Yeah, but take me to the weapons wall any day.

[Barliman Butterbur]

Take me to the weapons wall any day.

[Sean Marchese]

Can you.

[Barliman Butterbur]

Are you guys hiring people who can't draw at all?

[Sean Marchese]

Dispel any feeling of burnout. You have seriously pure, just joy of that.

[Barliman Butterbur]

I mean, I'm inspired just from your description of this.

[Leonard Ellis]

It is amazing. We're very fortunate to have what we have around here.

[Sean Marchese]

Yeah, amazing.

[Barliman Butterbur]

Absolutely.

[Sean Marchese]

Well, next year, 2026, it'll be the 25th anniversary of the Fellowship of the Ring. Tell us if you can, do you have anything exciting planned for, for the 25th anniversary of fellowship and anything, anything we've talked about, collectibles, books, anything else that our listeners should know about?

[Daniel Falconer]

The Fellowship and Moria Masters collection is kind of the first step in that direction because Workshop may be debuting it this year. But of course it will come out and collect. The collectors will have it in their collection in 2026. So that's definitely one big step in that direction towards celebrating the 25th anniversary. But yeah, it's certainly not the only one. And they're there. I'm not sure that I have clearance to.

[Barliman Butterbur]

That's fairly fair.

[Daniel Falconer]

There's cool stuff happening and a lot of it I'm not even aware of. So I'm looking finding that out too. But definitely that's not the only thing. There'll be lots of other cool stuff coming for sure.

[Leonard Ellis]

There's, there's, there's a lot of, you know, we've got a lot of stuff coming for, you know, from small. Like our mini monsters have been doing really well. So thank you for all those who have really taken up, you know, that range of ours. So there's more of that. There's more large things, there's more medium sized and there's, there's characters who we absolutely, you know, love from these films in different guises, in different armor, you know, and we're in different costumes that we've made that we're really, really, you know, happy to be Bringing these new ones. So, yeah, I'm not going to say, say what we've got coming because I don't get trouble either.

[Barliman Butterbur]

We don't want, nor do we want.

[Sean Marchese]

We don't want that.

[Daniel Falconer]

But we want to preserve some surprises coming. And as Len is alluding to there, across a range of different entry points. So that, you know, great.

[Leonard Ellis]

And the biggest thing is it's across timelines too, as we are, you know, some of the stuff that some of the sculptors are starting on may only. Only, you know, our collectors may only see it in two or three years time. So it's, you know, it's not a necessarily case of what people are working on now is our next collectible to be released. So, you know, there's this thought as to like, what is the, you know, the 25th anniversary, of course, does not just encompass one film.

[Barliman Butterbur]

No, no, that's true. The 25th anniversary is a three year long event.

[Daniel Falconer]

I'm trying to wrap my head around 25 years. Can't believe it. Because it doesn't seem like that long.

[Barliman Butterbur]

No. Yeah, I remember the midnight release. I remember, I remember staying up all night. Well, not staying up all night. Having my computer stay up all night to download the little minute and a half trailer. You know, the little QuickTime movie that was only like 320 by 200. But you know, that was back in.

[Sean Marchese]

The days of dialing your dial up. Yeah, yeah.

[Daniel Falconer]

Yes. You know, when we were working on the designs, we would have to, you know, somebody wasn't on site, you would have to fax them, you know, even a word that people now even, even know what that means.

[Barliman Butterbur]

I don't think so.

[Sean Marchese]

Yeah, only shadow. That's the only fact.

[Barliman Butterbur]

Well played, sir. Well played. Oh, that was fantastic. Really enjoy that, folks. First of all, Daniel Leonard, thank you so much for joining us today. Really appreciate your time and everything that you've. All the stories. We want to let you know that anytime you want to come back and talk about stuff, you just give us a holler. We'll make space.

[Daniel Falconer]

You bet.

[Leonard Ellis]

Thank you. Thank you so much for the opportunity to chat with you guys.

[Daniel Falconer]

Yeah, thank you for giving us the forum to talk about something that we both love talking about. So it's, it's a treat for us. Lovely to love it, chat with you and hope everybody enjoys the stories.

[Barliman Butterbur]

Yeah, I have a feeling they will.

[Sean Marchese]

I think they will. I think they will.

[Barliman Butterbur]

Absolutely. Well, folks, that does wrap it up for another episode of the Prancing Pony podcast. Thank you for joining us for this truly special episode to start season 10. Join me again next week as I begin to cover the rest of Unfinished Tales with returning co hosts like James Tauber, Sara Brown, and who knows, maybe even this guy named Sean.

[Sean Marchese]

Maybe.

[Barliman Butterbur]

Maybe.

[Sean Marchese]

I'm hoping that it will happen. Counting on it, actually.

[Daniel Falconer]

Good.

[Sean Marchese]

But folks, Alan and I want to thank the members of Team ppp. That's our editor Jordan Reynnels, our barliman Becca Davis, social Media manager Casey Hilsey, Event and Patreon community coordinator Katie McKenna, graphic artist Megan Collins, and website guru Phil.

[Barliman Butterbur]

And please take a minute to check out theprancingponypodcast.com that's where you're going to find show notes, outtakes, Prancing Pony ponderings, as well as our online storefront where you can get PPP merch featuring all the great episode artwork that Megan's been doing for the show for more than three seasons.

[Sean Marchese]

You'll also want to visit our library page. The Prancing Pony Podcast is first and foremost a podcast about the books. So if you're interested in a book that we've mentioned on the show, you'll find a link to it in our library. Now, the PPP does does get a small amount of compensation when you make your purchase, and we thank you for that.

[Barliman Butterbur]

And we also want to thank our patrons at the Kirdan's contribution tier. I'll start with Demay in Alaska, Chad in Texas, Lance in New Jersey, Joseph in Michigan, Kathy from North Carolina, Carlos in California, Brian in the uk, Jerry from Washington, Joe in Washington, Irwin from the Netherlands, Ben in Minnesota, Anthony in Texas, Zaksu in Illinois, Sarah in New Jersey, Joshua in Massachusetts, Lucy in Texas, Keith in Alabama, Erica in Texas, and Vivian in California.

[Sean Marchese]

And there's also James in Massachusetts, Ann in Kentucky, Sean in New Jersey, Mason in California, Maureen from Massachusetts, Olivia in London, Robert in Arizona, Nick in Wisconsin, Lewis in South Carolina, Thomas in Germany, Craig in California, Bailey in Texas, Kevin in Massachusetts, Julie in Washington, Bruce in California, Joe in Maryland, Nathan in Arizona, and Kevin in Pennsylvania. Thank you all so very much for your support indeed.

[Barliman Butterbur]

Thank you.

[Sean Marchese]

And make sure you don't miss any episodes of the Prancing Pony Podcast. Subscribe now through Spotify, Apple Podcasts, Amazon Music, or your favorite podcast app.

[Barliman Butterbur]

And one last thing. As always, don't forget to send your thoughts, comments, and most of all, your favorite Weta Workshop collectibles to barnuman@the prancingpony podcast.com actually send your favorite Weta Workshop collectibles to to me. Actually, that's where I.

[Sean Marchese]

That's where you can send the actual collectible.

[Barliman Butterbur]

Actual collectibles.

[Daniel Falconer]

Yeah, yeah.

[Barliman Butterbur]

Actually send me shelf space anyway.

[Sean Marchese]

Yeah, right. And if you want your voice literally heard, well, just send us audio of your question. You can visit pod inbox.com prancing pony pod and you can record your question for us. But please be sure to still email the question to Barliman too.

[Barliman Butterbur]

Please do. Now, even though Barnum has been a lot more reliable lately, there is still a lot of mail to sort through. We'll try to get to you just as soon as we're able. As always, though, this has been far too short a time to spend among such excellent and admirable listeners and guests. But until next time, farewell, friends, and Doug.

[Daniel Falconer]

Here we have the Limu Emu in.

[Barliman Butterbur]

Its natural habitat, helping people customize their car insurance and save hundreds with Liberty Liberty Mutual. Fascinating. It's accompanied by his natural ally, Doug.

[Leonard Ellis]

Limu is that guy with the binoculars watching us?

[Barliman Butterbur]

Cut the camera. They see us. Only pay for what you [e-mail] Liberty.

[Daniel Falconer]

Liberty Liberty Liberty Savings.

[Barliman Butterbur]

Very unwritten by Liberty Mutual Insurance Company affiliates. Excludes Massachusetts.

[Daniel Falconer]

For a limited time at McDonald's, get a Big Mac Extra Value meal for $8. That means two all beef patties, special.

[Barliman Butterbur]

Sauce, lettuce, cheese, pickles, onions on a.

[Daniel Falconer]

Sesame seed bun and medium fries.

[Barliman Butterbur]

And a drink. We may need to change that jingle. Prices and participation may vary.