383 – Questions After Nightfall 32

Summary

THE PRANCING PONY PODCAST
Episode 383 – Questions After Nightfall 32
September 28, 2025

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Episode Overview

In this lively "Questions After Nightfall" episode, host Alan Sisto and co-host Dr. Sara Brown welcome a panel of Patreon supporters for the 32nd installment of their acclaimed Middle-earth Q&A sessions. This episode marks a transition between their epic Lord of the Rings deep-dives and a new season focused on Unfinished Tales. Alan and Sara field spontaneous, wide-ranging questions from listeners—ranging from Tolkien’s internal world-building struggles and character mythologies to fan debates on dragons and dwarves. The atmosphere is as warm and welcoming as a pint in Tolkien’s own Prancing Pony, brimming with laughter, thoughtful analysis, and more than a few puns.

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Key Discussions & Insights

1. Tolkien’s “Mythology” Explanations

(05:01–12:36)
Question by Olivia: What's your favorite example of Tolkien offering a mythological explanation for real-world phenomena (e.g., how the sun or moon came to be)?

• Alan:
  • Favors the myth of Arien, the Maia who carries the Sun, for her fiery defiance against Morgoth and the myth's explanation for the sun and moon’s odd cycles and eclipses.
  • "Her carrying the sun...her attitude toward Morgoth...her bright fire just scares the heck out of him." (06:15)
• Sara:
  • Prefers Tolkien's wrestling with the world’s shape: starting with a flat Middle-earth inspired by Norse myths, then catastrophically shifting to a spherical world using Atlantis and Noah’s Ark parallels.
  • Tolkien’s drive for “inner consistency of reality” and his struggle to retrofit mythology into geological sense.
  • “He gave up on the rewriting...it got him into such a mess he couldn’t write himself out of it...but I love that he was still playing with it even late in life...” (08:29)
• Shared Reflection:
  • Admire how Tolkien’s Ainulindalë gives even weather, mists, and mountains a mythic backstory.

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2. Galadriel’s Evolving Backstory

(12:42–23:58)
Question by Kevin: Why was Tolkien so invested in expanding and revising Galadriel's story, and what makes her so central and compelling?

• Sara:
  • Galadriel started as a “retconned” character Tolkien tripped over, then became a Valkyrie-like powerhouse, representing his love for strong female figures with proud flaws and depth.
  • She embodies complex “unfriendship” with Feanor and oscillates between pride/power and penitent narrative paths in Tolkien’s drafts—even mirroring Marian (Virgin Mary-like) ideals by the end of his life.
  • “Anybody who tells you there are no powerful female figures in Tolkien has not been paying attention.” (15:08)
  • Her journey is enriched by time spent with Melian, critical for her moral development.
• Alan:
  • Highlights Tolkien’s vacillation near his death: “...in one letter, Galadriel’s a penitent...in another, she did nothing wrong...he never actually managed to write that properly.” (19:12)
  • Argues her flaws enhance her interest and relatability.
• Memorable Moment:
  • “Thank you for coming to my Galadriel TED talk.” —Sara (20:18)

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3. Surprises in Tolkien’s Collected Poems

(28:28–39:41)
Question by Jenny: What surprised you most in the new three-volume Collected Poems of Tolkien, edited by Scull & Hammond?

• Sara:
  • Astonished by the precocious brilliance and technical range of Tolkien’s earliest poems.
  • Deeply moved by “GBS,” Tolkien’s elegy for his friend Geoffrey Bache Smith: “I have described this poem as being like a howl of pain...” (33:26), seeing its pain echoing through all Tolkien’s later themes of loss.
• Alan:
  • Enjoys watching poems like the "Malbeth the Seer" prophecy evolve draft by draft (“...he changed that so many times...” 39:41).
  • Praises Scull & Hammond’s work for revealing the process behind poetry, not just the product.
• Shared Reflection:
  • Both agree Tolkien’s poetry, especially about loss, enhances the emotional impact permeating the legendarium.
  • Quote: “Their joy was like swords, and they passed in thought out to regions where pain and delight flow together and tears are the very wine of blessedness.” —Alan, reading from Field of Cormallen (38:00)
• Jenny:
  • Observed how poetry brings readers close to Tolkien's own heart, “even if it’s about mythological things, it’s very close.” (37:10)

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4. Fellowship as a Band

(40:47–43:44)
Question by Sam: If the Fellowship were a band, who would play what?

• Alan/Sara (with in-chat suggestions):
  • Boromir: Lead guitar, flashy
  • Aragorn: Bass, steady backbone
  • Legolas: Keyboards
  • Gimli: Drums
  • Merry & Pippin: Backup vocals, comically off-key
  • Frodo: Emo lead singer
  • Sam: Roadie or sound board
  • Gandalf: Stage manager/pyrotechnics
  • Running joke: “Every once in a while the Eagles open for them...”
• Notable Quote:
  • “Sam’s running sound, he’s the one running the board and making sure everything sounds good.” —Alan (41:57)
  • “Do they open with Hotel California?” —Sara (42:56)

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5. Tolkien’s Motivation for Writing LOTR

(44:18–60:48; key content from 45:19–60:48)
Question by Anthony: Why did Tolkien write The Lord of the Rings, especially with all its appendices and legendarium depth—was it for a “gospel” purpose or something else?

• Alan:
  • Summarizes Tolkien’s stated motives:
    • “The desire of a tale-teller to try his hand at a really long story...” (foreword to the second edition)
    • Practical: Answering publisher and market demand for a Hobbit sequel.
    • Deeper: A “mythology for England,” though Sara clarifies he wanted “a mythology that he could dedicate to England.”
  • Tolkien’s dislike of direct allegory, so his gospel message (if any) is delivered through “applicability,” not allegory.
• Sara:
  • Emphasizes many-layered motives: practical need, creative urge, and the desire to “immerse” his sequel into his Silmarillion world.
  • LOTR unites themes of hope, courage, death, and working across cultures.
  • “There is no one reason why he wrote the Lord of the Rings. There’s a bajillion reasons...” (54:44)
• Jenny:
  • Recalls the “mythology for England” theme, but Sara offers a precise textual correction.
• Quote:
  • “Tolkien was human...He had many reasons and he drew on all of them for writing whatever he was writing.” —Sara (51:34)
• Caveat:
  • Letters must be read in context—Tolkien tailored answers to his audience (especially notable with religious/Catholic interpretations).
  • “You have to take the letters with a pretty big grain of salt based who he’s writing to...” —Alan (58:24)

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6. What Happened to Mordor After Sauron?

(60:59–64:55)
Question by Erica: Did Tolkien ever mention how Mordor fared after Sauron’s fall—did it recover ecologically, or become habitable?

• Alan:
  • Yes: Aragorn freed slaves in Mordor and gave the fertile lands around Lake Núrnen to them ("breadbasket of Mordor").
  • “The king...gave [the slaves] the lands about Lake Nurnen to be their own.” (61:48)
  • The northern, volcanic Gorgoroth plain likely stayed desolate for a long while.
• Sara:
  • Notes that renewal is possible only with much effort (and perhaps “Samwise the Great Gardener” could help).

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7. Are There Any Dragons Left After Smaug?

(65:10–70:51)
Question by Neil: Did dragons survive into the Fourth Age? How many were there?

• Alan & Sara:
  • Some dragons likely survived but very few, and far from the west—diminished in both number and grandeur (smaller, weaker than First Age dragons like Ancalagon).
  • Dragons are “territorial” and their mythos is tied to scarcity, like Balrogs.
  • “I doubt there are a dozen,” —Alan (67:25)
  • New dragons would have been in the North or East, possibly in isolated “retirement” or lairs.
• Quote:
  • “By the time we get to Smaug...if you put him next to Ancalagon, [he’s] just going to look like a tiny little earthworm.” —Sara (68:53)

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8. Middle-earth’s Best Cook?

(71:10–73:18)
Question by Seth: If you could invite any non-Ainur Tolkien character to cook for you, who and what would they make?

• Alan:
  • “Sam? Fish and chips? Yes, I’m perfectly happy with that.”
• Sara:
  • Chooses Gildor Inglorion, recalling the vegetarian-friendly elven feast in the Shire, featuring “beautiful white bread, fruits, and all sorts of lovely, fresh things.” (72:05)
  • Alan: “It’s gonna be accompanied by some fantastic drink...”
• Jokes:
  • Melian would bake a mean lembas, but she’s Ainur, so disqualified.
  • Sara on gender assumptions: “I deliberately did not want to go for a female character because I wasn’t going to assume that it would be a woman making the food.” (73:01)

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9. Dwarf Demographic Math

(76:20–80:44)
Question (Round 2) by Anthony: How can dwarves survive with such low reproduction rates and frequent warfare?

• Alan:
  • Admits Tolkien’s world-building here fails the math—likely unintentional, as Tolkien didn’t “run the numbers.”
  • Suggests Aulë’s imperfection as a creator compared to Ilúvatar may explain dwarves’ unique challenges.
• Sara:
  • The low birthrate and many unmarried/childless dwarven women is "entirely Tolkien, not me." (79:25)
  • Tolkien sought “mystery,” but the math “doesn’t math.”

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10. Fingolfin vs. Sauron—Who Would Win?

(82:13–86:53)
Question by Kevin: If the High King Fingolfin fought Sauron (at various points in Sauron's history), who would win?

• Alan:
  • Fingolfin could beat Sauron one-on-one in most scenarios—his epic duel against Morgoth marks him as “the strongest, most valiant,” of elves. Without the One Ring, Sauron is at a disadvantage.
• Sara:
  • Whether Sauron bears the Ring is decisive: in Second Age, with the Ring, Sauron might take it; otherwise Fingolfin is favored.

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11. Life Lessons from Tolkien’s Legendarium

(86:57–94:20)
Question by Seth: What is a life lesson you carry from Tolkien’s work?

• Sara:
  • Deeply identifies with Éowyn’s struggle through despair; her touchstone is “Aure entuluva”—day shall come again.
  • “You just need to put one foot in front of the other. Day shall come again.” (88:53)
• Alan:
  • Emphasizes hope in darkness and the value of “endure, endure, and hope,” as echoed in Húrin’s story and Gandalf’s words on despair.
  • Also credits Tolkien with teaching greater empathy, pity—even towards figures like Gollum.
  • “If you’re not taking something away you can apply day to day, you’re missing out.” (86:58)

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12. Can Orcs Be Redeemed? Are Good Orcs Possible?

(95:58–103:44)
Question by Jenny: Is there such a thing as a good or heroic Orc, and what happens to them after Sauron’s defeat?

• Alan:
  • Tolkien struggled with this contradiction and never solved it; Orc origins (twisted elves vs. men) are uncertain. Orcs’ capacity for good or heroism is left unresolved in his writings.
• Sara:
  • Heroism is “immensely subjective”—an Orc could be “heroic” by Orc standards (e.g., seizing freedom from masters), but they lack models for “good” as others define it.
  • Points out they never had agency to choose virtue.
• Shared Reflection:
  • Compassion for Orcs could mean treating them as free peoples under law rather than extermination (“I can’t imagine Aragorn going around...with death squads...” —Alan 103:42)
• Memorable:
  • “What would compassion for the Orcs look like?” —Jenny (102:24)
  • “Not treating them as something you can just, you know, commit genocide against.” —Sara (102:27)

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13. Why Did ONLY Glorfindel Come Back?

(103:44–106:00)
Question by Olivia: If the Valar only sent one elf back, why was it Glorfindel?

• Alan:
  • Jokes it’s because “he’s so pretty”—then more seriously suggests Glorfindel is unique simply because he’s the only one named.
  • Most elves, after “re-embodiment,” would choose to remain safely in paradise rather than go back to Middle-earth.
  • “The Yelp review for Middle-earth is pretty awful.” (104:48)
• Sara:
  • Doubles down on the “so shiny, so pretty” angle, riffing on Glorfindel’s dazzling appearance and reputation as Balrog-slayer.
• Humorous Banter:
  • “He struts around at Rivendell going, I’m so shiny, I’m so pretty, little swish of the cloak...” —Sara (105:14)

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Notable Quotes

• “The whole legendarium is about loss.” —Sara (34:07)
• “You just need to put one foot in front of the other. Day shall come again.” —Sara (88:53)
• “Empathy...That’s the point.” —Alan on lessons learned (93:12)
• “Nobody is going to sit here and go that Tolkien’s belief system had absolutely zero impact on his writing.” —Sara (60:29)
• “Anybody who tells you there are no powerful female figures in Tolkien has not been paying attention.” —Sara (15:08)

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Timestamp Guide to Key Segments

• 01:40–03:23 – Welcome, intro to format and Q&A session
• 05:01–12:36 – Tolkien’s mythological “explanations” and world-building struggles
• 12:42–23:58 – Galadriel’s many lives and Tolkien’s retconning
• 28:28–39:41 – Collected Poems: surprise & heartbreak
• 40:47–43:44 – The Fellowship as a rock band
• 44:18–60:48 – Why did Tolkien write LOTR? (gospel, commerce, mythology debate)
• 60:59–64:55 – Mordor after Sauron
• 65:10–70:51 – Dragons after Smaug
• 71:10–73:18 – Middle-earth’s finest cook
• 76:20–80:44 – Dwarf population math
• 82:13–86:53 – Fingolfin vs. Sauron
• 86:57–94:20 – Life lessons from Middle-earth
• 95:58–103:44 – Can Orcs be good/redeemed?
• 103:44–106:00 – Why Glorfindel alone?
• 107:01–108:16 – Closing remarks, thanks to patrons

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Tone & Style

Warm, witty, corridorial, and at times poignant. Alan and Sara blend rigorous analysis with pub-friendly banter, never shying from tough questions, but always keeping discussion accessible—with good humor, humility, and Tolkienian heart.

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This episode is a masterclass in passionate fandom and Middle-earth scholarship, serving up laughter, insight, and food for thought in equal measure—a perfect “common room” experience for Tolkien readers new and veteran alike.

Transcript

[Sara Brown]

Hi, I'm Kristen Bell, and if you know my husband Dax, then you also.

[Alan Sistoe]

Know he loves shopping for a car.

[Sara Brown]

Selling a car, not so much.

[Alan Sistoe]

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[Sara Brown]

Thankfully, Carvana makes it easy. Answer a few questions, put in your van or license, and done. We sold ours in minutes this morning and they'll come pick it up and pay us this afternoon.

[Alan Sistoe]

Bye bye, Truckee.

[Sara Brown]

Of course, we kept the favorite.

[Alan Sistoe]

Hello, other Truckee.

[Sara Brown]

Sell your car with Carvana today.

[Alan Sistoe]

Terms and conditions apply. Race the rudders. Raise the sails. Raise the sails. Captain, an unidentified ship is approaching.

[Anthony]

Over. Roger, wait.

[Alan Sistoe]

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[Sara Brown]

It's time to streamline with WhatsApp, the secure messaging app that brings the whole group together. Use polls to settle dinner plans, send event invites and pin messages so no.

[Alan Sistoe]

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[Sara Brown]

All protected with end to end encryption.

[Alan Sistoe]

It's time for WhatsApp Message Privately with everyone.

[Sara Brown]

Learn more at WhatsApp.com.

[Alan Sistoe]

Good evening, Little Masters, and welcome to episode 383 of the Prancing Pony podcast, where we come back to now the turn of the tide. After seven years in the Lord of the Rings and and the appendices, we're moving on to unfinished tales this season. But before we do, it's time to take a break. It's time to take a break. We haven't even started. That's the way I do my studies as an undergrad. Take a break from our studies for some live Q and A.

[Sara Brown]

So, folks, pull up a bench in the common room and join us. I'm Sara Brown, the shield maiden of Rohan, and I'm here with the man of the West, Alan Sistoe.

[Alan Sistoe]

Folks, help us welcome a few of our patrons to join us for our 32nd quarterly questions after nightfall.

[Sara Brown]

Good grief, Is it that many already?

[Alan Sistoe]

I know. It feels like it's just not possible.

[Sara Brown]

Now, no matter whether you came to Middle Earth through the books, the films, the TV show, or something else, each of you is welcome here in our common room. The Prancing Pony Podcast continues in our 10th season of Reading and talking our way through Middle Earth with conversations, digressions and even speculations 10th season Alan 10 yeah, I know.

[Alan Sistoe]

Can you believe it? I mean, it's, it's stunning. We're actually going to hit the 10th anniversary during this season. In February of 26, we'll be celebrating 10 full years. Not only will we have those conversations, digressions and speculations, we'll more than likely have a few puns and bad jokes.

[Sara Brown]

Here and there, always from Alan.

[Alan Sistoe]

But our main purpose is to dive deep into the lore to discuss the story, our favorite characters, our favorite themes, Tolkien's inspirations, and a whole lot more.

[Sara Brown]

And while we take the work seriously, the same can't be said about ourselves. We're just a couple of friends chatting at the pub, and we're really glad you joined us.

[Alan Sistoe]

And I'm sure you'll be glad you joined as well, especially since tonight it's not just the two of us chatting at the pub. Once a quarter, we do take a break from our read through and welcome a few of our patrons to join us here in the common room and bring along some of their very best questions. And since that quarter ends in just a couple of days, we figured we'd better start the season with one.

[Sara Brown]

We have no idea what they're going to ask us, so as we've done many times before, we're simply going to do the best job we can in answering their questions with whatever resources we have on our shelves and our all too limited brains.

[Alan Sistoe]

Now, as with previous questions After Nightfall episodes, aside from possible edits for nervous coughs or time spent flipping through pages while we look for an answer, we will be presenting this as it was recorded live, so everything that you hear in the show will. Will have been recorded during this session. No cheating and giving answers later.

[Sara Brown]

Honest?

[Alan Sistoe]

Sure, honest.

[Sara Brown]

Can't I?

[Alan Sistoe]

We have had to one time splice in somebody's question because somehow the recording got lost. But other than that, it's always been as it is.

[Sara Brown]

That's great. If you'd like to be on one of these with us sometime, join the Fellowship of the [e-mail] prancingponypod questions after nightfall episodes are recorded once a quarter, and patrons at the Elronds Honorarium, Tier and higher, are invited to join.

[Alan Sistoe]

It's just one of the ways that we show our appreciation to those who support the show, giving them the opportunity to join us, make us laugh, make us think, and on, well, several occasions, embarrass us. Now, let's go ahead and get started. Sara, who is up first?

[Sara Brown]

Up first is Olivia.

[Alan Sistoe]

Olivia welcome. Or welcome back, I should say.

[Sara Brown]

Thank you very much. It's great to be here again.

[Alan Sistoe]

It is great to have you. What question, exciting question do you have for us?

[Sara Brown]

Start the season I've been revising, swatting, desperately trying to prepare for the Ox and Moot pub quiz. In the process, I was rereading some stuff from Book of Lost Tales one and I came across one of Tolkien's sort of mythology stories, you know, where he describes or explains how certain things in the real world came to be. My question is, what's your favorite Tolkien mythology in that sense? What the. The bit where he's explaining how things in this world came to be.

[Alan Sistoe]

Yeah, there's so many. I mean, the sun and moon, the spherical shape of the earth. There's a lot. I like that question a lot. Olivia, I also wish you luck on the pub quiz.

[Sara Brown]

Oh, don't.

[Alan Sistoe]

Because if. If Alan R. Is there, or Harm or Baragon, it's over. All over but the crying.

[Sara Brown]

Yeah, all of the above. I'm usually just delighted if I get like 50% of the answers.

[Alan Sistoe]

Sit at their table. That's how I won, actually. I. Alan R. And Harm, I sat at their table at the 2019 one, I think it was. Or no, 2018. Oh, goodness, my favorite. There's so many. I really do love the sun and moon, though. I think if I have to come up with one, it's Aryon and her carrying the sun. I'd love her attitude towards Morgoth or just absolute fearlessness and the way her bright fire just scares the heck out of him. And the way that mythology explains the sort of odd phases of the moon and the fact that the moon and the sun don't really line up and we get these sort of. The occasional eclipse even, no less. I think that would probably be the one I would choose, but there's so many. Sara, what about you?

[Sara Brown]

I'll get to mine in a second. I just want to jump onto the whole Arien thing because Tolkien did mess around with that story quite a bit and there's some real unpleasant red flag waving ickiness going on for poor Aryon.

[Alan Sistoe]

Yes, that is true.

[Sara Brown]

You know, first she gets chased by moon guy who won't take no for an answer. Tolkien goes a little further with what Morgoth decides to do, but we won't touch on that because this is a family show.

[Alan Sistoe]

Yeah, I'm sure we'll get to that. Yeah, yeah. Because I mean, we should get to that at some point.

[Sara Brown]

We should get to that at some Point. But, yes, I mean, that's a great choice. I'm actually going to go for the shape of the world. And one of the reasons why I really like this is because Tolkien himself wrestled with this after having done it. So he starts off, of course, with the flat world, which is an interesting concept in and of itself, because what happens to the sea? Does it just fall off the edge? What's going on here? So the flat world is a really interesting concept, actually, to try and wrap your head around. And the fact, of course, that there are still people in this primary world who will insist that it is a flat world, despite all of the evidence is. Yeah, I'm not going to go there either, because that's a whole other story. Why I like this story is that there comes a point where he decides he really wants to make this world round.

[Alan Sistoe]

Yes.

[Sara Brown]

And to do that, it has to be cataclysmic, because you can't just take a flat world and go, oops, we're round now. So I love the fact that he kind of. He uses the Atlantis myth, along with the Noah's Ark stuff, and he just bends the world and twists it until it becomes circular. And I think that's really interesting because, of course, later in life he starts fussing with that anyway, thinking, well, I shouldn't really have started with the flat world at all. I should have started with the round world. And then he tries to work out what difference that would have made. And of course, that makes a huge difference, because if you've already got a round world, the two trees are useless because curvature of the earth, you can't have the light hitting absolutely everything all at once. So he gave up, I think, on the rewriting of that, simply because it got him into such a mess that he couldn't write himself out of it. But I love the fact that he was still playing with it even late in life, trying to work out how he could shape, literally geographically, physically, all of that geologically shape his world. And I just think that's really interesting.

[Alan Sistoe]

It shows just how much he wants to make this world continue with that. That inner consistency of reality. Right, right. The idea that he wants this to be our world, you know, Middle Earth is. Is just several ages ago, but it's our planet. That means he's got to do things to fix that so that we get that inner consistency of reality that he talks about as being so important. And yet, like you said, he struggled and struggled, but he'd kind of written himself into a. Well, I'd say Into a corner. But that's the problem with a spherical Earth. If he'd written himself in a corner, that would have been easy.

[Sara Brown]

Totally different. Yeah. Of course, when he was starting, he's thinking Midgard, isn't he?

[Alan Sistoe]

Yes, yes.

[Sara Brown]

And of course, in the Norse myths, Midgard is literally that this flat plane of existence in between lots and lots of others. Hence Midgard. So he's beginning there and writes that into his mythology. So that's why we get the lamps and the trees and that all works, and then it doesn't work anymore. So. And once you've got the sun and the moon, that kind of demands some kind of circular world and it just works better.

[Alan Sistoe]

Yeah, it does work a lot better. I mean, when he tries to explain the sun and the moon in conjunction with the flat Arda, it's hard to, like, wait a minute. So you just rush behind stage and get back over to the other side.

[Sara Brown]

Right. So you get that visual, don't you, of them going, la, la la, la, la la la la. Yes. That won't come over very well on the recording. That's me indicating a nice kind of circular swan like movement over the top of Middle Earth and then a skids across underneath to get to the other side.

[Alan Sistoe]

Exactly. A very cartoon sort of, you know, smoke coming from the feet sort of deal. Yeah, I like that. There were some other things that came to mind. They were smaller things. Well, smaller than the moon and the sun, I suppose. But I also really liked how Ina Lindale gave us an explanation for just basic geological features. The idea of mountains and valleys and how, you know, they would carve them up, they would build them up, and then Morgoth would come and just, you know, mess with it and all of these things. You know, even Iluvatar comes to Manwe or to Ulmo and says, did you ever even think of the fogs and this mist? But look, you know, the heat, look what it's done with your water. You know, it's created these. These clouds and this. This water vapor and it's. And now you get closer to be closer to Mount Hue. So, I mean, I just love how it sort of even explains things like the weather and basic geography. Really fascinating stuff. Great question, Olivia. I like that one. Thank you.

[Sara Brown]

Yeah, great start. Thanks for that, Olivia.

[Alan Sistoe]

All right, Sara, who's up next?

[Sara Brown]

Next up is Kevin.

[Alan Sistoe]

Ah, Kevin, Welcome.

[Sara Brown]

Thank you.

[Jenny]

It's good to be back.

[Kevin]

So, going into Unfinished Tales and having never read it before, I'm looking forward to get into the story of Galadriel and Celeborn. And over listening to the podcast, we've heard a lot about the different kind of rewrites that Tolkien has done for Galadriel's backstory since her inception, when he wrote the Fellowship arriving in Lothlorien. And kind of interested to hear your thoughts, both of you, of why he seems so attracted to making her a larger part of the story, because no one can deny she's a fantastic addition to the story and has made especially the kind of different factions of the Noldor more complex, especially in regards to Feanor and the Kinslaying and whatnot. But he seems to have never really settled on what he wanted for the way that she came to Middle Earth, because he had his earlier versions that we see in the published Silmarillion. And then, if I'm not mistaken, he had a different version later where her and Kelleborn both came over the sea. So just wondering what your thoughts on what about her was so interesting to him.

[Alan Sistoe]

That's an excellent question, and I am going to defer to you, Sara, on this, because James is going to be covering that with me when we get to it in the. In the season. And I want to give you a chance to shine on this, because I know Galadriel is somebody you've taken a close look at, especially with the Rings of Power and everything. So talk to us first. I mean, I'll still throw something in, but I want to hear from you.

[Sara Brown]

Sure, yeah, I'd love to talk about Galadriel. Galadriel is a wonderful example of Tolkien at his retconning best, because he trips over her in Lothlorien, decides that there's going to be this Elven woman, if you like, in Lothlorien. And then having created her, of course, he does what he often does, which is put that character to one side and decide he's now going to write the entire backstory for that person and find who she is. So he actually has to decide who she is, having already created her. I mean, he does the same for a few other characters. Like Faramir, for example, is the classic one that he trips over Faramir. But with Galadriel, he really seemed to get pulled into who she could be. And he goes for the full powerful effect, drawing on some of the old stories that he used to love to work with anyway, that have these powerful women. She's like a Valkyrie figure, if you like, in that sense, extraordinarily powerful. A lot of the things that he gives her in terms of her skill set, if we're going to talk about it like that, are Valkyrie skill set sets, and that includes things like making and weaving that she does. So I think what he was doing there is having a lot of fun to start off with, creating this incredibly powerful female figure. And anybody who tells you that there are no powerful female figures in Tolkien has not been paying attention. But then he has to, because he's got his sort of silmarillion thing going on in the background in which the elves end up back in Middle Earth because of the whole Feanor no jewelry issue. Right. So he has to decide how Galadriel therefore makes it over into Middle Earth, what is she doing there, and how come she's got a ring of power. What is going on here? And so he actually goes all the way back to this idea of Feanor, and he makes Galadriel and Feanor have a familial connection, but also not for or as it's described in the the Unfinished Tales. They are unfriends forever. Yes, exactly.

[Alan Sistoe]

They really predicted social media before social media was a thing.

[Sara Brown]

Exactly. So what he does is he finds a way to push her into even the ancient histories, and then, because he's created this really powerful character. How do you get that powerful character to show that she's powerful from the very beginning? And so what you get in the Unfinished Tales is a description of her as this extraordinary. Even amongst the elves, this extraordinary female character who is tall and strong and athletic and skilled. I mean, really top 1% of her class. Kind of like.

[Alan Sistoe]

No doubt about it, Overachiever from the beginning.

[Sara Brown]

Yeah. But along with that, because Tolkien's very good at creating really interesting, great characters that have flaws, because that's what makes them interesting and great. Really? Would Feanor be half as interesting if he wasn't an absolute doofus? I would say no. Right. If he just said, yeah, you can have my silver hills, I mean, that would be the end of the story, really, wouldn't it? So, yeah. Right. What we want is flawed characters, because flaws are more interesting. Again, if you look at the Fellowship, every single one of them has a flaw. Different kinds of flaws, but that's what makes them really interesting. I was going to say human, but of course, some of them are not human.

[Alan Sistoe]

Specifically not.

[Sara Brown]

Right, right. So what's the flaw? That Galadriel has pride. Right. And a desire for power. She actually does have a similar level of pride and desire for power that Feanor does. It's just that she doesn't jump off that cliff the way that Feanor does.

[Alan Sistoe]

In any of the versions. Right. I mean, in any of the. Because the tales. In Unfinished Tales, we'll get multiple versions of Galadriel, including the very last one that Tolkien was working on, I think Christopher says, literally in the last month.

[Sara Brown]

In the last month of his life. Yeah.

[Alan Sistoe]

Unbelievable. That's the one that I think you were referring to when you talk about her being powerful, even in Valinor. Right. Where she's like. I think that the text says the equal if, unlike in Endowments of Feanor. Yes, but you're right. The pride. She still wants to go and exercise her talents and rule a land. She's brilliant. She's swift in action, and she wants to go do this thing.

[Sara Brown]

She wants to rule a land of her own. She wants to be in charge. Girl of somewhere. And, you know, that does show a sense of pride and desire for power that is similar to Feanor's, but is a little bit more controlled, which is a good thing, considering. But, yeah, when we get to later in life, of course, Tolkien starts to completely retcon all of this, because in one of his letters, he says, galadriel's a penitent, and, you know, this is why she can't just go home. And then at the end of his life, he's saying in another letter, galadriel did nothing wrong. She's not a penitent at all. She left with the blessing of Manwe. Really? How did that happen? And he never actually managed to write that properly. Yeah. It's fascinating that towards the end of his life, he was looking to make of her a Marian character, and it just doesn't quite work. And I'm glad it didn't work, actually, because she's so much more interesting for being flawed.

[Alan Sistoe]

Yeah, I think so.

[Sara Brown]

Anyway, that's my thank you for coming to my Galadriel TED Talk.

[Alan Sistoe]

I'm trying to think of the timeline. I know that the talk or the letter where he says that she was a Penitent was in 71. It was near the end of his, you know, within a year and a half or so before he passed away. But I'm trying to remember, was it one of the letters to Father Robert Murray that he talked about her basically having done nothing wrong? Because I know she came up a lot in some of his letters to Father Murray.

[Sara Brown]

It's a later letter where he says that she's done nothing wrong.

[Alan Sistoe]

That's wild. I mean, I was imagining those to be, like, 20 years apart, but he just is not sure where she fits in all this back and forth.

[Sara Brown]

Yeah. And I suppose he worries that he's created this character who is so incredible and so amazing. He wants to make her better somehow. But again, I'm really glad he didn't manage that.

[Alan Sistoe]

It doesn't strike me, and I don't have any Catholic theology to fall back on in terms of my understanding of Mary, but it doesn't strike me that he initially viewed her in that way, but he certainly came to see that. And, you know, we get references of things like the Lembas, which is viaticum, and it's, you know, all this. But like you said, it's better that he didn't make her essentially flawless, you know, that the theology would have demanded for her to be, you know, without sin, for her to be, you know, compared to Mary. And so the flawed character is far more interesting. The fact that she struggled with that same pride but handled it differently. The. The idea of this late Galadriel, the one that he was working on at the very end. When you go to Unfinished Tales, one of the things we read there is this desire of hers to go and rule these lands and exercise her skill set was, it seems, known to Manwe, and he had not forbidden her, but nor had she been given formal leave to depart. And then Feanor pulls his rebellion, and, in fact, she ends up fighting against him in Aqualonde. Now, she goes off and sets off before Feanor. She actually arrives before Feanor in Middle Earth, but now she's under the ban of the Valar.

[Sara Brown]

It's important that she spends some time with Melian, actually. But it's also interesting that when Melian asks her, okay, so, you know, what happened on the journey over, And Galadriel doesn't want to tell her.

[Alan Sistoe]

No, no, she's. Well, you know, there's this thing.

[Sara Brown]

Yeah. Bit of a bumpy ride.

[Alan Sistoe]

She tries to downplay it, tries not to have to share the details. Yeah, yeah. But it is good that she spent that time with Melian. I mean, I think if there's a character in the first stage that's underrated, it is Melian.

[Sara Brown]

Oh, don't get me started.

[Alan Sistoe]

I mean, she was literally underrated at the time because nobody listened to her. But even when we look back on it, the power that she had and the wisdom that she showed really would have been, I think, a perfect tempering of Galadriel's pride.

[Sara Brown]

Yes.

[Alan Sistoe]

You know, would have helped her to. To be more grounded than, you know, like a fean or type, more thoughtful.

[Sara Brown]

Develop her wisdom yes, absolutely.

[Alan Sistoe]

And that does take time, you know. I mean, that's the thing. It's. Elves are. Elves are notoriously long lived, as we are aware. And it's just like we grow they do as well. So she was able to get a lot of wisdom from Melian. Great stuff. I am really looking forward to that. I think. I think the history of Galadriel and Kettleborn is going to be like an eight episode run, folks. That's going to be a really fun time digging into the all the different versions and texts and things. Should be great.

[Sara Brown]

A lot to. A lot to talk about there with you and James.

[Alan Sistoe]

Absolutely. What if a single scent called you back to Middle Earth? To a quiet corner of a roadside tavern where a weathered ranger watches stealthily from the shadows hidden beside the embers of a dying fire and the low flicker of candlelight where the scent of bread baking and hearty stout brewing lingers in the air, mingling with the ranger's scent of well worn leather pipe smoke and the whisper of mossy roads that clings to his cloak from the hush of ancient forests where elves lightly tread alive with scents of wild herbs underfoot and the pungent aroma of cedar bark beside Mythology Candles presents the Characters of Middle Earth Collection in partnership with Middle Earth Enterprises, an officially licensed series of candles featuring artisanal fragrances inspired by the beloved characters and places from the Lord of the Rings. Each candle is hand poured in America, made from non toxic pet safe ingredients and carefully chosen scent profiles crafted to bring the realm of Middle Earth home to you. Light the way and let the journey begin. A special offer for listeners of the Prancing Pony podcast use code PONY10 at checkout for 10% off your first order at mythologycandles.com that's mythology with an I E M Y T H O L O g I e candles.com Code Pony 10 football games and tailgate parties Shorter days, Back to school nights. Guess it must be fall. But guys, you know that doesn't mean we work any less hard or sweat any less. Mando Deodorant plus sweat control stops that odor before it starts. Don't mask it. Mando it. I had to do a lot of traveling over the last few months and I gotta say, Mando's been a big help. From hot, humid days to packing tiny overnight bags. One thing that's helped me is Mando's 4 in 1 acidified cleansing bar. It actually works as a shampoo, body wash, face wash and deodorant all in a single bar, but it's Mando's new Deodorant plus Sweat Control stick. That's my favorite. I don't want just a deodorant. I need something that's going to fight sweat too and keep my pits fresh and dry. This stuff works, giving me that fresh, dry feeling all day long. Now Mando's starter pack is perfect for new customers. It comes with a solid stick deodorant, cream tube deodorant, and two free products of your choice like a mini body wash or some deodorant wipes along with free shipping. Now, as a special offer for our listeners, new customers get 20% off site wide with our exclusive code use code [e-mail] for 20% off site wide and free shipping. That's S H O P M A N D O dot com. Please support our show and tell them we sent you. Mando's got you covered with Deodorant plus Sweat control. Say goodbye to sweat stains and say hello to long lasting freshness. Folks, in just a minute we'll get back to our incredible listener questions. But before we do, I want to take a minute to thank the amazing community that has grown up around this show. After all, there is a lot more talk going on at the Prancing Pony Podcast than just us.

[Sara Brown]

The PPP really does have a warm and welcoming listener community. If you've got questions or just want to talk about how much you love Middle Earth, be sure to check out our common room on Facebook and across all social media. On Facebook, just look for the Prancing Pony podcast. Yeah, there's a page, but you're going to want to join the group for that great fan community.

[Alan Sistoe]

Absolutely. On Instagram, X, TikTok, Blue Sky, YouTube, basically any platform you can think of. If we're there, we're at prancingponypod and you can find our subreddit at R Prancingponypod. And be sure to check out my daily show, Today's Tolkien times on YouTube and all your favorite podcast apps. Get your daily Middle Earth fix with everything from Middle Earth map Mondays to first stage Fridays. Check it out at YouTube.com prancingponypod all right, well, let's go ahead and dive back in. We've got some great questions still to come, but we've had a couple that knocked it out of the park already. Sara, who is next up?

[Sara Brown]

Next up is Jenny.

[Alan Sistoe]

Ah, Jenny, welcome back.

[Jenny]

Thank you so much. It's such a privilege to be here. It's great to be with you all I could actually talk about Gladriel all night long. But I'd like to change the subject because I purchased this year what is going to be my reading matter for the rest of my life, the Amazing three volume set by Skull and Hammond of the collected poems of J.R.R. tolkien. This is an amazing book and I'm just scratching the surface of it and I don't know exactly what question to ask, except maybe just to ask you both what surprised you most in this book. If. If you looked at it. And I know, Alan, you skipped over the poetry when you first read the.

[Alan Sistoe]

Lord of the Rings. That is true. I no longer. I no longer commit that sin. I am, you know, I gloriously revel in the poetry, especially the alliterative verse of Rohan, which is sort of my weak spot.

[Jenny]

Well, you know that the Collected Poems, it's got everything from Tom Bombadil to the Rohan stuff to Goblin Feet.

[Alan Sistoe]

It's got the poem that Tolkien doesn't want anybody to read.

[Jenny]

It's an amazing book. And there's so many different. They've done such an amazing job of tracking the various variations of each poem.

[Alan Sistoe]

It's mind blowing what they've done. I mean, Skull and Hammond have. I mean, it's a breathtaking work in terms of scope and it's right up there with all the other work they've done. I mean, you look at their chronology and guide and the detail that they had to go into to get that information and then to organize that information. And that's the thing, they present it in a way where this is a readable book. Like you can really look at the versions of a poem, see the development and the changes, and you can sometimes lament and be like, oh, it would have been nice if he'd left this in. But now you got to read it, which you never would have done before. And it's just fantastic. I, like you, only scratched the surface. But Sara, you actually have been teaching a class on it, haven't you?

[Sara Brown]

I have, yes. For Signum in Space, I've been teaching through all three of the volumes. I did three months on volume one, I've completed three months on volume two, and next week I begin volume three. So I'll tell you about what surprised me and then I'll tell you about what my favourite poem has been so far. Okay, so what surprised me is just how good at poetry Tolkien was when he was very young.

[Alan Sistoe]

Yes. Yeah, 20.

[Sara Brown]

Insanely good. One of the things that we have is in this three volume anthology is the ability to look at the development of each poem, because in most cases, there's different versions, different drafts of the poems. And for some of the poems, he returns to them 10, 20 years later and rewrites, redevelops. And that's really interesting to see what he does there. But even for the ones that we go back to, like, 1915, and we look at some of the poems he was writing when he was still a schoolboy, for example, and wow, he was such a talented kid.

[Alan Sistoe]

He really was.

[Sara Brown]

Yeah. Yeah. And you can see also that not only does he wish to be a good poet and he works at it, but he's very widely read as well. And so, you know, he's drawing on his knowledge of verse forms and different poetic techniques, and he's playing with them. He's doing that a lot in the early poems, actually playing with different verse forms and different poetic techniques as he finds his own voice. And then when you move towards, like, the end of volume one, into volume two, you can feel that he is finding his feet as a poet. He's really developing. As experienced as he is now, his poetry becomes just breathtakingly wonderful. So that's the thing that surprised me, was just how good he was from such a very, very young age at writing poetry. But I'm going to tell you just very briefly about my favorite poem so far. And my favorite poem so far is gbs, and it's the poem that he wrote or attempted to write to commemorate his friend Geoffrey Batch Smith. And it's just heartbreaking. I tried in one of the space classes, I tried to read the fullest draft that we have, tried to read it for them, and I got as far as, like, four lines from the end, and I broke down because it's absolutely heartbreaking. If anyone's going to be at Oxenmut, by the way, I'm actually talking about GBS in my. My talk for Oxenmut, but I've now done quite a bit of work on that poem simply because it just draws me the pain it is. Honestly, I have described this poem as being like a howl of pain, and that's exactly what it is. So it's strange, perhaps, to have that as a favorite, but I feel so connected to Tolkien's pain at his loss, which then, of course, is informing all of the things he writes after that. To me, it's there in gbs.

[Alan Sistoe]

Yeah. That actually makes me think about how so much of what we read in the legendarium is about loss.

[Sara Brown]

Yes, the whole legendarium is about loss.

[Alan Sistoe]

Why it's so moving when we read it. Why? Even though I've read it dozens of times or at least a dozen times, and yet I still get to these moments and I weep.

[Sara Brown]

Yes.

[Alan Sistoe]

And it's never going to stop. Every time I read some of those moments, whether it's Boromir or Theoden or whoever it may be, be, the tears will flow. And it's because Tolkien has this incredible ability to communicate that loss emotionally in a way that speaks to just about every reader. And I think that a poem like GBS shows us that in its rawest form.

[Sara Brown]

It does. You know, Tolkien was a man who wasn't afraid to draw on emotion. Now, I don't know in, you know, in real life, you know, was he like, stiff upper lip, British about it and didn't really emote out loud, if you like. But I do know that in his writing, he was unafraid to have his characters feel and reveal emotions. I mean, you go to the Return of the King and there's so much weeping going on in the Return of the King, you know, I mean, there's weeping left, right and center. But this is good.

[Alan Sistoe]

Yeah.

[Sara Brown]

Because so much of what's going on.

[Alan Sistoe]

There is about loss all of a sudden. I am put in mind of when we. And I think you were with me when we did the Field of Cormallen.

[Sara Brown]

Yes. Oh, I love the Field of Cormalin.

[Alan Sistoe]

What is that line? Something about joy and tears, the very wine of blessedness, and how there's this amazing proximity of sorrow and joy and you really can't have the one without having experienced the other and how each makes the other sharper and more poignant and more significant and more impactful. That has turned out to be one of my favorite lines. I mean, I think it's one that I probably didn't catch until maybe a few years ago, maybe a read. But as we got through it in Return of the King, I was just like, that hits hard. So, so good.

[Sara Brown]

I think the Field of Cormalin is one of the most underrated of the chapters.

[Alan Sistoe]

Oh, it absolutely is. I feel like people are so emotionally drained after Mount Doom, understandably so, that they're sort of like, read fast, read fast to get to Aragorn, get in the kingship, and they tend to forget the beauty of Field of Cormalin. Jenny.

[Jenny]

I just wanted to reiterate that for me, reading the poetry sort of went right to the heart of all that in the whole of the work. And it was just so revelatory to me to be that to Feel that close to Tolkien himself without, you know, without some of the times the whole mythology and everything gets in between me and Tolkien. But in the poetry, even if it's about mythological or, or whatever, it's very close.

[Alan Sistoe]

You're right. It does feel a lot more intimate than prose, you know, most of the time.

[Jenny]

And unlike you, Alan, I always, I always read all the poetry.

[Alan Sistoe]

Well, you're better than I am.

[Jenny]

As a nine year old, the only one I couldn't read was the elegies for Boromir. That's the only part of the Lord of the Rings I got stuck at first reading. Age 9. I couldn't get past that. And there are reasons, but I didn't like Boromir and I didn't know why everybody was so sad he died. I'm sorry.

[Alan Sistoe]

Well, you were nine. You know, it's totally understandable.

[Jenny]

So I skipped all that and I went on. But I've since revisited those poems and they are incredible.

[Alan Sistoe]

They're rich. Yeah.

[Jenny]

Yeah.

[Alan Sistoe]

And I love the, the tradition that it shows, right, that, that Gondor has a tradition of these sort of improvised verses. You know, maybe there's some stock lines that you can, you can draw on, but the idea is these reverses that were composed on the spot. And it's just a wonderful, rich tradition. But I want to go back before we go to the next question. I know we need to keep doing that. I wanted to read that paragraph in Field of Cormala because I feel like it really touches on, on all those points we made about poetry and how it brings those emotions to the fore. So this is, this is after, you know, the, the bard has said, I'm going to sing to you of Frodo the nine fingers and the Ring of Doom. And Sam is like, oh, my wishes have come true. And all the host laughed and wept. And in the midst of their merriment and tears the clear voice of the minstrel rose like silver and gold and all men were hushed and he sang to them now in the elven tongue, now in the speech of the west until their hearts wounded with sweet words, overflowed and their joy was like swords. And they passed in thought out to regions where pain and delight flow together and tears are the very wine of blessedness. You'll excuse me for a minute. I mean, that's such an emotive, isn't it? Yeah, that paragraph has really become one of my favorites. Just swiftly, you know.

[Sara Brown]

But there's poetry even in his prose, isn't there?

[Alan Sistoe]

Isn't there?

[Sara Brown]

When you read something like that.

[Alan Sistoe]

The musicality, the alliteration, all of that. But, yeah, just real briefly, the thing that surprised me the most, I think in the poetry volumes and I have not read all of. Was great to get a poem about Scatha the worm.

[Sara Brown]

Oh, yeah.

[Alan Sistoe]

I was like, whoa, what is this cold? Drakes aren't just drakes without fire, they're cold. They can actually do these terrible things with their cold. That was something. I think my favorite, though, was reading the various versions of Malbeth the Seer's Paths of the Dead, because he changed that so many times for a very long time. He actually had the three lords being Aragorn, Legolas and Gimli. As part of the poem, we get this line, three lords I see from the three kindreds halls forgotten in the hills they tread Elf Lord, dwarf Lord and man forewandred from the north they come by the paths of the dead. And it's just so cool to see him work this thing and develop it and change it here and there. And yet it changes significantly over time. And it's just so rich to see him. To see him do that. So fantastic stuff. Great question, Jenny. Thank you. All right, well, everybody wipe your tears. Sara, who is next?

[Sara Brown]

It's Sam.

[Alan Sistoe]

Thank you. It's good to be here. If you had to assign each of.

[Kevin]

The members of the Fellowship a role.

[Alan Sistoe]

In a band, what would they be? What instruments would they play? What would they sing?

[Kevin]

You can go full orchestra or horns, whatever.

[Alan Sistoe]

Okay. Boromir is a little flashy. He wants to play lead guitar. Aragorn is the rock solid, steady bass player who just stands there in the background. He's the star of the show, but nobody knows it. You play the bass, Sam. All right. Hey, that's good company. Legolas plays the keyboards because it's probably the least rock and roll of the instruments that are going to be on the stage. And I just don't see Legolas as being particularly rock and roll.

[Sara Brown]

Gimli on the drums.

[Alan Sistoe]

Gimli on the drums, for sure. Gimli is banging out that. That rhythm. Mary and Pippen are backup vocalists and they're never on key. They are never on time. And it is hilarious to watch and listen.

[Sara Brown]

Frodo is the emo singer.

[Alan Sistoe]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, absolutely.

[Sara Brown]

Sam is the roadie because someone's got to be in charge.

[Alan Sistoe]

Sam's running. Yeah, Sam's at the board. He's. He's the one, you know, running. Running the sound and making sure everything sounds good. Sam piped in and chat Legolas on rude harp.

[Sara Brown]

Gandalf is using Pippin's head as a drum. Says.

[Alan Sistoe]

Yes, he is. What role does Gandalf have? I mean, he's the stage manager. Yeah, but I mean, is. Is he actually going to ever pick up an instrument and play? I mean, Sam's running sound and is sort of like the lead tech guy, for sure.

[Sara Brown]

Yeah.

[Alan Sistoe]

Yeah. So that's Boromir, Aragorn, Legolas, Gimli, Frodo, Sam, Mary, Pippin. Yeah, it's just Gandalf. So Gandalf as stage manager and mc. Ladies and gentlemen, let me introduce to you the Fellowship of the.

[Sara Brown]

They need a new name.

[Alan Sistoe]

And every once in a while, the Eagles open for them.

[Sara Brown]

Everyone goes, yay, the Eagles are coming.

[Alan Sistoe]

That's right.

[Sara Brown]

Do they open with Hotel California?

[Alan Sistoe]

Oh, I bet they do. I bet they do. Guy here, you know, living it up at the Hotel California. Yeah, I'm sure.

[Sara Brown]

I feed him the lines, he sings them back to me.

[Alan Sistoe]

All right, Sam, you want to jump back in? I think you're missing a good opportunity.

[Kevin]

Here to have Gandalf while doing stage management. Also, pyrotechnic seems fairly obvious.

[Alan Sistoe]

Yes, of course he's gonna do the fireworks.

[Sara Brown]

Of course he is.

[Alan Sistoe]

And only occasionally does somebody get lit on fire. That's probably. Yeah, I like that it works.

[Sara Brown]

And usually on purpose.

[Alan Sistoe]

And usually. Oops, I did it again. No, no, no. I don't want you to sing that song. That's a terrible song. Not in their repertoire. Definitely not in the repertoire.

[Sara Brown]

Great question. Tend to use spears. They're more swords, aren't they?

[Alan Sistoe]

They are. Oh, they are. They are. Nicely played. I like that.

[Sara Brown]

Thank you. Thank you. I'll be here all week.

[Alan Sistoe]

Well, you know, that's up to me.

[Sara Brown]

Is that a threat?

[Alan Sistoe]

We'll see about that. Sam, that was a fun question. I always enjoy that kind of thing. I think we've done, like, who plays what position on a baseball diamond and all sorts of other fun things before like that, so. All right, Sara, who is next up?

[Sara Brown]

Next up is Anthony.

[Alan Sistoe]

Anthony, welcome. Or welcome back, I should say.

[Anthony]

I stayed away for a while, actually. Went back and re. Listened to everything again. I felt I'd missed it. One thing that I think you said in one of the episodes was you only get to read the books once. As a first time. The famous line. And no one does it right, like, because if you read it too early, you skip over the poetry, you skip over the stuff. And I certainly fell victim to that. So I went back trying to do this better. The second time I went back to your podcast and I've been plodding through, and in episode 125, that's the one where you reviewed the Tolkien movie. So, yeah, not a particular great movie. You gave it a 3. I was with you. The one question that I would love you to apply your years of wisdom and learnings to. We know that Father Christmas was written by Tolkien for his children and to make every other dad feel inadequate.

[Alan Sistoe]

Oh, yeah, absolutely that.

[Anthony]

100%. Okay, so we all get that. And then we also understand that the Hobbit was written, starting point of a children's story, and they grew. The question is, why? Why do you write this? Why do you write the Lord of the Rings? And here, here's what I need you to consider. You may write the Lord of the Rings. It's a great book, wonderful. You'll sell some copies, but you're not going to sell any of the similar alien. It's not going to happen. You know it. You basically force feed it on your publisher. You're never going to get anybody to buy all this text. And why would you write the appendices if you were writing a book you were trying to sell copies of? So the question is why? I think he was writing a gospel. I think he was writing a gospel to say, look, if you're small, you can still accomplish great things. If you are humble and do things without pride or avarice and do things because they're meaningful and because you care about others, you, against impossible odds, can do something that no one else could do. And when you take that and you go forward and you say, what's the most published book in the world in world history, it's the Bible. But what is. What was the author of the 20th century? It was Tolkien. According to Shippy and Garth and every poll that could be taken, you end up with this belief that he was writing for an audience that he was trying to take farther.

[Alan Sistoe]

That is a good question, and it's a fun question, because I think we can look into everything from the letters to some of the things he's written in the prologue to see what he's said, but also maybe try to read between the lines a little bit, Sara, Because, I mean, I do think Tolkien answered that question with some clarity in some moments, even if his answers changed in different ways or reflected different facets is the way I would prefer to think about it. I think first I go to, like, the prologue. I think it's the prologue. Maybe it's the introduction to the second edition. Yeah, it is. It's. In the foreword to the second edition, he says that his prime motive was as the desire of a tale teller to try his hand at a really long story that would hold the attention of readers. But also do these other things, right, amuse them, delight them, and at times excite them or deeply move them. Certainly we've talked today about how deeply moved we've been by his work, and I think. I think you've touched on that a little bit with this idea. I don't. I don't know that he was consciously trying to do that. Certainly, C.S. lewis was very consciously trying to, you know, write a book that was amoral. And it was. I shouldn't say amoral. That makes it sound like I'm saying not moral, amoral. He was trying to write a tale of morality. And Lewis made that very clear because it was an allegory. You know, Tolkien, on the other hand, cordial dislike of allegory in all its forms ever since he was old enough to figure out what it was. Again, we have to take that with a grain of salt because he's also really good at writing allegory. So he couldn't have hated it all that much. I mean, one just needs to read the stuff that he writes on Beowulf and the Tower, or one just needs to read Leaf by Niggle or even Smith of Wootton Major. And you can sort of start to see that he's pretty phenomenal at allegory. But I do feel like for him, he's writing it because he's been asked for a sequel. I mean, there's the very blatant sort of practical answer is the Hobbit has sold well. People want more Hobbits. I want to bring in my legendarium. I'm probably not going to get the Silmarillion published. In fact, that whole deal with Milton Waldman fell through. So I'm back at Allen and Unwin, and I understand I'm only going to get the Lord of the Rings out now, but I'm going to tell these stories, which is why Aragorn sings about Beren and Luthien. It's why he wrote the appendices. Right. He desperately wanted to get all of these tales in. He lamented so many times about how much he had to cut from the appendices. He was just, oh, I want to do more. There's so much more I want to put in here. In a way, I wish I hadn't done this at all, because it's so Short. It's not going to satisfy anybody. Thankfully, he's wrong. We were able to get an entire season of episodes out of it, and it was fantastic. But he wanted to get that material in. So it was a combination of the practical. I need to write a sequel because it's going to feed my family. I want to bring in my mythology. So I'm going to connect my mythology to this story that I originally wrote that had nothing to do with my mythology, that only had little bits and pieces poke through, like the unnamed Thranduil, right? The, the, the. The King of the Woodland Realm in the Hobbit. That was thing. I mean, that was just. That was thingol in Tolkien's mind as he's writing the Hobbit. But he's like, oh, I can't be thinkal because it's first age, third age. But, you know, we're going to try these connections, the Silmarillion, or, I'm sorry, the Silmaril and the Arkenstone. Is the Arkenstone a silmaril? Of course it's not. But also. Of course it is. It is an Eorknanstan, that's the old English word for arkenstone, that means sacred stone, and it's a silmaril. So there's all sorts of things that poke their heads through, but not the legendarium itself, like, not the actual story that he wanted to tell. So he wants to tell that story. He's been aching to tell that story by the time the Lord of the Rings comes out for 40 years almost. So I think it's a combination of those things. Got to write a sequel. Want to pour out this story. And what he says in the, in the. The prologue or the foreword, that my desire here was to try my hand at a really long tale that people would enjoy. And, you know, he even acknowledges, look, I may not have done this all that well. There are going to be people who have found it boring, absurd, or contemptible. That's fine. I have similar opinions of what they like to read. I love that. But I feel like that's probably the broad answer. I don't know if that's the answer you're looking for. I can't always promise I can give the answer you're looking for, but I do feel like that's going to cover a lot of bases. Sara, what other reasons might he have written what he did?

[Sara Brown]

Tolkien was human because he was human. He had many reasons and he drew on all of them for writing whatever he was writing. Yes. Would he have preferred to have put out the Silmarillion? Yeah, probably. Would he have preferred to put out the Silmarillion and the Lord of the rings together? 100%. But of course, by the time he realized that they weren't going to publish the Silmarillion, he'd already written the Lord of the Rings. So let's just remember that there is that timeline. 100% correct, Alan, is that he started writing the Lord of the Rings because his publishers said, please, can you write Hobbit number two? That was 100% the reason, because the Hobbit sold so well, he started getting interestingly sized cheques from his publishers. And he was an impoverished professor who wasn't paid all that much and had a sizable family. So, yeah, the royalty checks coming in, they were really, really helping. So he did want to write something that would satisfy that desire from his publisher. On the other hand, we can't set aside the fact that when he was writing the Lord of the Rings, which did take him a little bit of time, he was fully immersing that in his Silmarillion world, which he did not do with the Hobbit to start off with, not until it was retconned. So with the Lord of the Rings, that gave him the opportunity to draw on certain things that he'd already thought about for his legendarium. And there are so many examples woven into the text of the Lord of the Rings. And let's also remember that nobody got to see the Silmarillion until nearly a decade after the Lord of the Rings came out. No, sorry. Two decades after the Lord of the Rings came out. So we read the Council of Elrond, which is one of my favorite chapters, and he starts talking about this Turin guy. You know, I know you're like, don't tell us anything about him. Just, oh, well, we'll count you among the greats like Turin. Thanks.

[Alan Sistoe]

Can you tell me more about this Turin guy? Yeah.

[Sara Brown]

Yes, yes, exactly. So, you know, there's all sorts of things coming together here, but also, I think that the more he got into writing the Lord of the Rings, the more he was able to put into it the themes and concepts and ideas that underpin his Silmarillion. So we have those themes of death and loss and sorrow that permeate this, this book that does get published, but also that idea that a small person can change the fate of the world, that courage is a thing in the face of overwhelming fear. Courage is a thing that working together is incredibly important. So that is why it's important that the Fellowship is made up of people from different races.

[Alan Sistoe]

100%.

[Sara Brown]

It's vital. Right. He's telling us this is how we're supposed to get together to stand against the power of evil. So there's a lot actually going on here. I think there's no one reason why he wrote the Lord of the Rings. Like any human being, there's a bajillion reasons for doing any one thing.

[Alan Sistoe]

A bajillion. How many zeros is that?

[Sara Brown]

So many. So many zeros.

[Alan Sistoe]

Jenny, you wanted to pipe in on this one. What do you have for us?

[Jenny]

Yeah, I just. One of the bajillion things I think was. I don't know where he said it, but to provide a mythology for Britain.

[Alan Sistoe]

Oh, yes. Oh, yeah. Very much.

[Jenny]

Wasn't Frenchified like the Arthurian legends and was genuinely British to the core.

[Alan Sistoe]

And was also in that same writing, which is letter 131 to Milton Waldman, where he was trying to sell a different publisher on taking the Lord of the Rings and the Silmarillion. He. In specific answer to your question, Anthony, one of the reasons he wanted this story was because it was pre Christian. You know, that religion didn't take a particularly pronounced presence in the story, which, you know, very much was different from. From Lewis.

[Sara Brown]

I just think it's really important to point out that Tolkien never said he wanted to write a mythology for England. Those aren't Tolkien's words, they're Humphrey Carpenter's words. What he says in letter 131 is that he wanted to write a mythology that he could dedicate to my country, to England.

[Alan Sistoe]

That's corre.

[Sara Brown]

Very different things.

[Alan Sistoe]

That is very different and very important to draw that. Yes. Thank you, Sar, for that very important clarification. Anthony, what do you have?

[Anthony]

There is no greater parallel than some small person defeating Baradur, than some small person defeating the Roman Empire. There are no greater parallels. But on that same token, and I don't mean to lawyer you your answer. I published the Silmarillion because I wanted to is circular. And so it had to be a Greater More. And that's. I genuinely believe there's a Greater More. He may have said in his text he didn't want to say this, or he didn't want to do that, or he didn't want to analogize this, or he didn't want to make a statement for this country or those people or this religion. But he was trying desperately to get a bigger story out to so many people and there is no story. This is the best part that we're all in agreement on. I believe there is no story, no book that was written in the last 150 years that has drawn more build on and taken it to another step. All of the other authors that you can look to, whether it's Heller, whether it's Ludlum, whether it's Ulysses, whether it's James George writing Ulysses, all their stories stop there. And all of his stories have continued to spawn like mushrooms. Greater. There is no writer greater than that. And there is only one parallel text that you can say that about. So that's where I stand. And I think you, this forum does the greatest job in expanding and bringing up kind of stone heaving what is underneath the words of the professor. And I appreciate you letting me speak. Thank you.

[Alan Sistoe]

No problem, Anthony. Happy to do it. I mean, that's why we have these episodes. It's really important that folks get to ask these questions and discuss these things robustly.

[Sara Brown]

Yeah, it's a great in depth question and it's a real round the table at a pub question where everybody can just. This is my opinion on this. And you know, no one person is going to be absolutely correct because none of us is talking.

[Alan Sistoe]

Exactly. Right. I mean, I think the best place to go would be the letters. But Dr. Flieger has made this very clear. You have to. Oftentimes you have to take the letters with pretty big grain of salt based on who he's writing the letter to.

[Sara Brown]

You do. Exactly. You have to pay attention to who he's writing to because that makes a huge difference on the tone and the content, the way in which he speaks.

[Alan Sistoe]

About his work and the transparency of what he wants to say. You know?

[Sara Brown]

Yeah, there's. I mean, the letter that so many people quote and misquote is the one about how the Lord of the Rings is a Catholic work. If not consciously in the writing, then unconsciously. So. Sorry, if unconsciously in the writing, then consciously so in the revision. And then they stop and mic drop. There we go. The only way to read this is through a Catholic lens. And I just want to hit the brakes and check the front and side view mirrors because first of all, he's writing to a Jesuit priest. Okay. He's going to be talking about his work in a very different way to a Jesuit priest, to how he's going to talk about it to somebody who isn't. And he goes on to say so much more about his work and about any spirituality within the work that if you just select a quote like that and Put a border around it and go, there you go. There's my proof. Then all you've proved is that you haven't read all the rest of the letters.

[Alan Sistoe]

That's right. All you've proved is you can cherry pick the letters like anybody else and the letters really are. Are cherry pickable. I mean, he does say very different things to very different people at very different times. Which is why I really encourage reading the entirety of the letters, taking them all into scope and kind of getting a more holistic image and understanding of what Tolkien thought and said.

[Sara Brown]

Yes, yes. And remembering that he's a human being.

[Alan Sistoe]

Yes.

[Sara Brown]

Who said one thing in 1930 something and something totally different in 1950 something. Because people change their minds.

[Alan Sistoe]

They do.

[Sara Brown]

You know, they think differently. Twenty years later, this happens. Nobody is going to sit here and go that Tolkien's belief system had absolutely zero impact on his writing of the Lord of the Rings. That would be.

[Alan Sistoe]

And what it was in 1917 is. Exactly. Is what it was in 1956. No.

[Sara Brown]

Yeah, yeah. That cannot be, can it?

[Alan Sistoe]

It's a great question. It really does give us an opportunity to explore and discuss and have some fun with it. Sara, who is up? Up next.

[Sara Brown]

Okay, so up next is Erica.

[Alan Sistoe]

Erica, welcome back.

[Jenny]

My question is because I played Lord of the Rings online and I was grinding through the Mordor and my thought process is after the Ring was destroyed and you have all the, you know about Gondor being replenished and does Tolkien ever have anything for Mordor? Was it recreated? Green things grow.

[Alan Sistoe]

Yeah. I'm trying to remember the exact location of the text on that. There is some stuff about what Aragorn did in his kingship, you know, later on in his reign. I think that's actually in Appendix A.

[Sara Brown]

Because there are areas of Mordor that are where they grow the food and where there is water. And it's all done by slaves. And he frees the slaves.

[Alan Sistoe]

He does free the slaves. Yep.

[Sara Brown]

Yeah.

[Alan Sistoe]

In the Steward and the King, we read that the king pardoned the Easterlings that had given themselves up and sent them away free. And he made peace with the peoples of Harad and the slaves of Mordor. He released and gave to them all the lands about Lake Nurnen to be their own. So that would be the southern portion of Mordor that's probably still got a breadbasket, so to speak, because he did have to feed the Orcs and he couldn't feed them on the. The ash or the Gorgoroth plain. So that's the thing that I was thinking of from the text. I do know that in the section under amer in appendix A3 we read a little bit because of course he and Aragorn hung out for a while, which, you know, it must have been odd for Amir to watch his friend, who is already like 50 years older than him, not age. And for Amir to then die of old age before Aragorn did.

[Sara Brown]

Yeah, that's got to be irritating.

[Alan Sistoe]

Gotta be like, man, I don't get it. What are you using for your skin? Lsr, I mean, I. You know, we read about that in appendix A3 in Amer's Day. In the Mark, men had peace, who wished for it. People increased, both in the dales and the plains, and their horses multiplied, going though on to sort of their stuff together. For those Sauron had passed, the hatreds and evils that he bred had not died. And the King of the West, Aragorn, had many enemies to subdue before the White Tree could grow in peace. And wherever King Elessar went with with war, King Eomer went with him. And beyond the Sea of Rune and on the far fields of the south, the thunder of the cavalry of the Mark was heard. And the white horse upon green flew in many winds until Eomer grew old. So that doesn't say specifically about Mordor, but it talks about beyond the Sea of Rhun. It talks about the fields of the South. So again, we're at least covering where the Easterlings and the Southerns would be. But yeah, the rest of Mordor had been given to these former slaves. The northern portion around the plain of Gorgoroth. I'm not sure anybody would want that. I mean, it'll be fertile land in the future, you know, I mean, with all that volcanic activity. But.

[Sara Brown]

But you'd need somewise the Great Gardener, I think, on that.

[Alan Sistoe]

Yeah, you really would. Yeah, that's a very good point and.

[Sara Brown]

A heck of a lot of fertilizer.

[Alan Sistoe]

That is a good question though, Erica. And that's the thing about LOTRO or Lord of the Rings online that I really enjoy is, as you explain, explore the online world. It does bring up questions about like, ooh, what happened here? You know, and oftentimes you're presented with a story of what happened there and they're just filling in the blanks because that's what they have to do. But I like situations like that where you can like, well, let's see what the actual text has to say. Aha. It's been given to the slaves. Shadow of. Is it Shadow of Mortal or Shadow of War is a video game that sort of strongly hints at that as well. You get into the. The sort of the greener part of Mordor and there are slaves there. And you know, eventually those are the ones who must inherit the land who Aragorn gives that region to. In the chat, though, I have to say Anthony in Texas says that Aragorn sent Raiders fan there in full garb figuring they'd fit right in. That's. Thank you very much. Yeah, probably not entirely a stretch.

[Sara Brown]

I think Neil has made a sports reference again.

[Alan Sistoe]

Everybody makes the sports references except you. Well, okay. No, not really. Just. Just a couple of us. All right, Sara. Well, who is up next?

[Sara Brown]

Next up is Neil.

[Alan Sistoe]

Neil. Welcome, sir. No. Swethar. Alan. Saraswatha. Good evening, Alan and Sarah. I thought it fitting to greet you in Cymrigal Welsh as the flag of Wales bears a dragon. And my question is about these creations of Morgoth after the death of Smaug. You went into some detail about dragons in your recent deep dive into Durin's Folk but primarily about those in the past. In episode 370, however, it was mentioned that, quote Sauron's forces, possibly including dragons could have swept through Eriador and even wiped out Rivendell, unquote during the War of the Rings if not for the success of the quest for Erebor. So how many still exist? Existed and are they. Did they continue into the Fourth Age, the Olkhanvar? Thank you very much.

[Sara Brown]

Great question.

[Alan Sistoe]

Throw a really hard question our way.

[Sara Brown]

And we get to talk about Draegoch, the Red Dragon.

[Alan Sistoe]

All right, well, I mean, clearly they do still exist. Smaug was the greatest of those still remaining.

[Sara Brown]

Yes. The greatest of calamities.

[Alan Sistoe]

Yeah. The ones remaining would be lesser than Smaug. I know. Pippin asks Gandalf, are there dragons in this land? Gandalf doesn't say, what are you. What are you crazy? There are no dragons. He doesn't say yes either. He just says no. These are the beacons of Gondor. And he explains them. But he doesn't dismiss the question as being foolish. So. Which he would clearly and happily do since it was Pippin. I mean.

[Sara Brown]

Yes.

[Alan Sistoe]

You know, if everyone was asking if there were. Yeah, yeah. I'd be like, oh, you. You idiot. I mean, what kind of fool do you think. You shut your mouth, you little. Yeah. Oh, goodness. Yeah. So I think the answer is yes, there are. How many? I have no clue. No clue at all. Sarah, is there anything in any text that I'm missing. That suggests numbers.

[Sara Brown]

The remaining dragons. Not that I can think of, but I've always assumed that they would be either far up north or far to the east.

[Alan Sistoe]

To the east? Yeah. Relatively small in number. I mean.

[Sara Brown]

Yeah, by this point, I think so. Because if they had a big dragon gang, then they'd have flown over to partake.

[Alan Sistoe]

They're territorial creatures in every mythology, including Tolkien's. And. And that suggests that then if you go back and look at the evidence of Smaug, there's no other dragon around. It's not like they have to deal with dragons in the Misty Mountains before they get to the Lonely Mountain. So, yeah, I don't think the numbers are going to be very great. I think also Tolkien had a tendency to take these really powerful creatures and make them a little fewer. I'm thinking of what he did with Balrogs earlier in his writings. There were thousands of Balrogs, and they were getting slain by the dozen by the guards in Gondolin. And he's like, you know, actually. And then he's got a note in there, and Christopher Tolkien explains it in one of the volumes of History of Middle Earth that, you know, my father wrote a note. There should never have been. We should never think that there's any more than about three, or say, maybe seven dragons or Balrogs. I mean, like, there just weren't very many. And I think the dragons might fall into a similar vain. I'm not saying three to seven. I'm not being specific, but I doubt there are a dozen, let's put it that way.

[Sara Brown]

The other thing about the dragons is that they seem to get lesser and lesser and lesser and lesser as we get through the age. I mean, your original dragons were insanely huge and powerful and scary.

[Alan Sistoe]

I mean, and Calagon was huge, but Glaudrung was even more terrifying.

[Sara Brown]

Yeah, yeah. But by the time we get to Smaug, I mean, Smaug is, you know, not tiny, but if you put him next to Ancalagon, for example, I mean, he's just going to look like a tiny little earthworm.

[Alan Sistoe]

Yeah, yeah. Like a little kitten next to a lion.

[Sara Brown]

So, you know, you've got that. Also. There seems to be a lessening of these. But, I mean, I just. I love dragons, so I would really, really like for them to still be dragons somewhere. But I think that they would be either in the very far north or the very far east and, you know, living their best lives in their own.

[Alan Sistoe]

Little mountains and their own little dragon retirement communities and you know. Yeah, no, I certainly. There would have been a few involved and Sauron would have been able to persuade them. I don't think they would have been. And we've had this conversation, too, with Durin's Bane. Was Durin's Bane on Sauron's payroll? Right. Was he, like, at Sauron's command? No, almost certainly not. And certainly Smaug was not. But could Sauron, as Gandalf said, you know, could have used the dragon to terrible effect? Oh, absolutely, yeah.

[Sara Brown]

Yeah. I mean, could bribe him into doing something, couldn't you? I mean, let's not forget that a Balrog is also a Maya.

[Alan Sistoe]

Yeah.

[Sara Brown]

So, you know, they're relatively equal. Yes. Okay. Sauron's just a little bit shinier as.

[Alan Sistoe]

A Maya but he might be one of the more powerful Maiar.

[Sara Brown]

Yeah, but still, I think that it would be a. Hey, Balrog, mate. How about I give you this and then you do this for me rather than you will do this for me because. Yeah.

[Alan Sistoe]

And as independent as they are, I kind of get the feeling of the dragons would be even more so, like. Like, what do I need you for? Yes, exactly. But you can provide me more wealth. Okay, Then we can talk.

[Sara Brown]

Yes.

[Alan Sistoe]

Because that's all the dragons.

[Sara Brown]

We can do that.

[Alan Sistoe]

Exactly. That's what dragons care about, you know, is wealth. So interesting. Good question. I also love that it gave you the chance to greet us in Welsh. I thought that was fantastically done. Good stuff. All right, so I think we've got one more here in round one, right?

[Sara Brown]

We have one more, and it is Seth.

[Alan Sistoe]

Seth. Welcome. Hey, y'. All.

[Anthony]

Thanks for having me. Happy to be here. So here's my question, right? You get to choose one individual from the legendarium, excluding any of the Ainur.

[Alan Sistoe]

To prepare a meal for you.

[Anthony]

Who do you choose and what do.

[Alan Sistoe]

You think that they are going to.

[Anthony]

End up preparing for you?

[Alan Sistoe]

Sam? Fish and chips? Yes, I'm perfectly happy with that. Oh, man.

[Sara Brown]

Okay. I'm gonna choose Gildor in Glorian. Let's think about the food that those elves provided right there at the beginning of the Fellowship of the Ring. And as a vegetarian, I can only say whatever Gildor put out. I think that would be pretty dashed good.

[Alan Sistoe]

I think it really would. And it's gonna be accompanied by some fantastic drink.

[Sara Brown]

Yeah, well, yes. Yes. I wouldn't mind a little sip of Mirvor. But it's the. Yeah, the wine that they have with the. The beautiful white bread and all the. There would have been fruits and all sorts of Lovely, wonderful, fresh things. So, yes, you can keep your nasty chips.

[Alan Sistoe]

I mean, Pippin even says the bread tastes almost as good as it did last night. So. So, you know, this is some fantastic stuff. Yeah, that's not a bad call. I think Gildor and Glorian would be a good one. Oh, man. There are others that come to mind, but what would they serve me?

[Sara Brown]

Well, Melian apparently would do a good line in lembas.

[Alan Sistoe]

Yeah. But she's an ainu so we can't include. So I couldn't pick her per the question. Otherwise I think Melian would have been my answer. I don't know what she would have made, but I would first of all listen to her. That's really what it boils down to.

[Sara Brown]

Yes, that would be good. Yeah. But I deliberately did not want to go for a female character because I wasn't going to assume that it would be a woman making the food.

[Alan Sistoe]

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[Sara Brown]

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[Alan Sistoe]

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[Sara Brown]

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[Alan Sistoe]

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[Sara Brown]

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[Alan Sistoe]

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[Sara Brown]

Like a good neighbor State Farm is there. We told you about the amazing PPP community after our earlier break. If you're a part of that community and want to enjoy something even more special, come join the Fellowship of the Podcast on Patreon. You get to be in the best discord community around. One that includes host hangouts and even live episode recordings.

[Alan Sistoe]

And folks, your support there is honestly what enables me to work full time doing all of the shows, the ppp, Today's Tolkien Times, Rings of Power Wrap up, and my streaming show the PPP Plays. And when you join, you get things like Episode Postscripts, you can get ad free episodes, free merch and more.

[Sara Brown]

And you can join these questions after Nightfall episodes or even appear as a guest in the north wing. Go to patreon.com prancingponypod to show your support and join the Fellowship of the Podcast.

[Alan Sistoe]

And don't forget to rate and review on Apple Podcasts and Spotify. And please recommend us to your friends. And I don't know if you all knew this, but you can do that directly on Spotify now. You can literally just share the show with your friends. All right, Sara, let's get back to this. Who do we have up to begin round two?

[Sara Brown]

Okay, so beginning round two is Anthony.

[Alan Sistoe]

All right, welcome back.

[Anthony]

Good to be back. I have a simpler question now, going back to the episode that dealt with the reproductive qualities and quantities of dwarves.

[Alan Sistoe]

We did the math and it didn't look good for extinction.

[Anthony]

Yeah, I took some issue with it and I did some math on my side, but I'm not a mathematician, as you know. I don't have those capabilities. But Sarah took great pride in the fact that there were dwarf women who chose not to be married. Which made sense to me then, makes sense to me now, and I don't really understand because I'm not that smart, the origin story of dwarves to begin with. But no creator, whoever it may be, would have created a species that is a both has a gestation period of 100 years or more and then two propensity for war. Like, well, we're gonna get out there and you're 25 and you're gonna be dead by 30 and it takes 100 years to make you well, we'll be out of business in like one generation. So with that backdrop, I think we need to revisit dwarf reproduction and numerosity because there has to be A better answer because, again, as I said, I'm leaving in the hands of whatever creator made them. Made of the mountain, as I understand, Made of the earth, made differently. And I think that was very important in recent episodes. When you talked about the origin, what they cared about, what they were sourced with, what they were concerned with, because their embodiment and why the rings affected them this way as opposed to that way. I think we need to figure out what it is that dwarf reproduction can't be as oblique that they would die out inevitably because one, they would have such a poor cycle, and two, they love to go to war.

[Sara Brown]

Well, we are kind of stuck with what the author gave us.

[Alan Sistoe]

Well, that is the problem. We could do better if, you know, if it was our book. I think maybe it's because it was Aule that created them. I mean, I think there might be a little bit of that to it that, you know, he didn't necessarily have the same foresight that Illuvitar would have had and that did have when it came to the children of Iluvatar. But aside from that, which I don't think Tolkien actually considered it particularly strongly, it's just a matter of Tolkien not running the numbers on that. Yeah, we definitely would have to have a much, you know, higher birth rate or the Dwarves will go extinct within a handful of generations.

[Sara Brown]

The math doesn't. Math, as you pointed out.

[Alan Sistoe]

I mean, heck, it doesn't even math with the first generation. If you've only got seven Dwarf Lords and six of them are married and they're all. At least they're all married. You don't have any single Dwarves of those six women that were created to be the mates of those of all the Dwarf Lords, except for Durin. Yeah. And they only have, you know, I mean, they're not going to reproduce enough to populate one mountain, let alone the entire Misty Mountain range. But overlooking that. Just kind of glossing that over. Assuming that we have these large numbers and that for some reason, you know, their demographics changed. Yeah, we're just like you said, Sarah, we're stuck with what the author gave us.

[Sara Brown]

Exactly. Yeah. I mean, it's absolutely not my insistence that the Dwarven women often chose not to get married and have kids. It's Tolkien's insistence that they often chose not to get married or have kids.

[Alan Sistoe]

And it was his insistence that they don't have very many children. You know that.

[Sara Brown]

Exactly. Yeah. But I think what he was trying to do was create a race where there's not, you know, they're not in huge numbers anyway and they are secretive and they are hidden. And I think he was trying to create a kind of mystery around them and all that sort of thing and that's just fine. But his mathematics does not work out and that is the fault of the author right there.

[Alan Sistoe]

I wonder. You know, we talked before about elves in the Fourth Age and the fading. Right. That's part of their nature and that's part of what's going to happen to the elves. We don't necessarily read about what's going to happen to the dwarves, but this very well could be that they're going to die out because there are no Dwarves.

[Sara Brown]

This is prehistory.

[Alan Sistoe]

Exactly.

[Sara Brown]

Which means once upon a time.

[Alan Sistoe]

Yep.

[Sara Brown]

There were Elves and Dwarves etc. Yes. But they aren't anymore. At the elves fade, the dwarves die out.

[Alan Sistoe]

Right. They just don't repopulate fast enough. I also think though, there's in, in the question Anthony that you asked. You're. You were talking about them going to war all the time. I think they're particularly tough. I mean, like, I can imagine that they go to war and their, their injury rate may still be very high, but I doubt their fatality rate is particularly high. I don't, I don't know that a lot of them get killed in battles. I mean, obviously they did at the battle of Nandohirian that we talked about when we did those episodes. But I feel like that was almost the exception rather than the rule in the sense that Dwarves are tough. But that particular battle certainly wiped out most of Durin's, you know, most of the line of Durin's Folk. But yeah, you know, they were, they were intentionally made that way by Aule. Right?

[Sara Brown]

Yeah.

[Alan Sistoe]

Made to endure. He made them when Melkor still ruled Middle Earth. And they were supposed to be able to. To bear up under that. Which is also another explanation of why they don't really give one whit about the rings. You know, it doesn't affect them that way. You know, they're gone now though. Neil know they're not painted and sold as garden ornaments. That's shame. Shame. Where's my shame? Gif. It's very clever though. Thank you. All right, Sara, who is up next?

[Sara Brown]

Okay, so our second person in this second round is Kevin.

[Alan Sistoe]

All right, Kevin, welcome back again.

[Kevin]

Thank you. So we all know that Glorfindel, you know, couldn't break the legions of Mordor himself, as stated, I think by either Gandalf or Elrond in book two, which is why they had to you know, go on a stealth mission. But, you know, I feel like maybe if they got the, the High King of the Noldor to come back and you know, lead the front line may have been a bit more successful. But I gotta ask Sarenbi Fingolfon what, What's your. Who's coming out on top there?

[Alan Sistoe]

Oh, I mean, you look at that fight with Fingolfin and Morgoth and it's. It's pretty impressive for, you know, a. A child of Iluvatar to stand up against, you know, the most powerful of the Valar.

[Kevin]

I think he was the. What was he was described as. Because Feanor was the mightiest in craft. But I think Fingolfin.

[Alan Sistoe]

Fingolfin was the strongest, the most steady and the most valiant. That is how he is described.

[Sara Brown]

Yeah. And he wounds Morgoth very badly.

[Alan Sistoe]

I mean, it's almost a close call. He would probably stand a greater chance than any other non Ainu. Right? I mean, I think I might give Gandalf better odds in. Gandalf, the white form. Right? The sort of Gandalf unloosed sort of form. But I think Fingolfin, I think he'd have a chance. I actually do. Yeah.

[Sara Brown]

Question. Does Sauron have his ring?

[Alan Sistoe]

Oh, oh, yeah, yeah. Because then all bets are off. That's a very good question, Sarah. So now we have to ask this question of you. Does Sauron, in this hypothetical where Fingolfin's facing off against him does Sauron have his ring? Is this Sauron's second Age like around the. The time of the siege of Barad Dur? Or is this Sauron peak third Age as he's attacking Gondor?

[Kevin]

I, I know the way I phrased the question originally made it sound more third Age but I think because of the absence of the ring I think we can safely assume Fingolfin kind of steamrolls Sauron in the Third Age without as much effort. But I'm more curious about Second age because when you look at, you know, Gil Galad and, and Elendil, you know, they're both great warriors in their own respect but that's, you know, Moraquendi elf and a, you know, a Numenorean who while, despite being a superhuman, you know, the, the Kaliquandi, especially the Noldor who came over the hell cracks they were. They were built different, you know.

[Alan Sistoe]

We're built different. That is a fair way to put it. Yeah.

[Kevin]

I mean, it's like, you know, Galadriel is of the same, you know, that's her Uncle. So it's, you know, I think if anybody had a chance of beating Sauron in a straight up 1v1 it probably.

[Alan Sistoe]

Well, I mean that's the thing. Gilgalad and Elendil did defeat him. I mean, you know, they couldn't have killed him. He was going to always, you know, revert to his, you know, non corporeal form. But they did defeat him long enough for Isildur to take the ring. So. Yeah, I mean given that, do I think Fingolfin could have done it in a one on one? Yes. It just, it wouldn't have been able to kill him because of the nature of an. I knew. I wonder now about Sauron in his peak first stage, you know, back when he was running Toland Goudhoff for instance or you know, when he was the lieutenant of Morgoth, that would have been another really interesting fight because he still could take multiple shapes at that point. You look at his fight with Luthien and how he changed form and you know, before she was like, you're going to have to completely disembody yourself and go back or we're going to kill you. I think Fingolfin would have been able to absolutely do that. Yeah, there's no doubt about it in the second age first stage. Don't know. But I think so because you know, Luthien and Huan certainly were able to put him down and Fingolfin's even more powerful than that. Yeah, he's pretty mighty elf. Let's be honest. He's. He's about as bad as they get. Yeah.

[Sara Brown]

Yep.

[Alan Sistoe]

Fingolfin, bad to the bone. He comes in, he's, he's challenging Morgoth, right. And you hear the. Wait a minute. What a minute? What do you mean craven? Nobody calls me chicken. Oh, great stuff. Good question. I really like that question. All right, well Sara, who do we have still here in the second round?

[Sara Brown]

We have Seth.

[Alan Sistoe]

Seth. Yeah. All right.

[Anthony]

Glad to be back.

[Alan Sistoe]

So y' all were talking a little bit earlier about some passages and poems that draws on the emotions and Tolkien does such a great job of that. So what are some life lessons or a life lesson that you've picked up from the legendarium and that you carry with you on a day to day basis even. Oh, I like that question a lot, Seth. I hope that everybody listening to this before they hear my answer or Sara's answer really stops to think. What's your answer listeners? What's your answer to that? Because I feel like if you're not taking something away from this that you can apply in your day to day life. You're missing out. But man, wow. There's a lot. There's a lot. I mean, I think, Sarah, I'm going to let you go first. Not because I don't have an answer, but because I have a feeling yours is going to be profound. I want to hear it.

[Sara Brown]

I've spoken before about my affinity for Eowyn and what she endures. Because as somebody who has endured depression and anxiety and still receives treatment for it and works my way through it, and some days are fine and some days not so much. Aure and Toluva day shall come again.

[Alan Sistoe]

Yes, I love.

[Sara Brown]

Sometimes you have to remember, yes, it does get better. Tomorrow is better. Today might be a little bit poopy, but tomorrow it will be better. And that even when you feel like you are right down the bottom of that hole, that actually it's that hole, you can climb out of it, you can. And you just need to put one foot in front of the other. Day shall come again.

[Alan Sistoe]

I love that. I mean, everybody who knows me at all and who's listened to this show for, you know, half dozen episodes knows that Huren's cry of Audrey and Tuluva is my peak moment, certainly in first age. Especially when you realize, you know, he's saying this, it's not going to come again for him for a long, long time. You know, you talk about a day being pretty poopy. He. He spent how many years sitting on a chair, forced to watch as Morgoth tormented his family? And in the meantime, Maeglin's like, you had a chair. Or maedharas, I should say, Maedhros, like, you had a chair. But yeah, it's that reminder that no matter how dark it gets, the only choice is to see that there is still hope. I mean, that's what the eucatastrophe is. It's not hope in a thing that's certain, it's hoping a thing that isn't certain and may not happen, or it may happen to somebody else. It just might not happen to you. And for Hurun, I said it didn't come for years and years. Arguably it never comes at all. I mean, he's released, he's broken, man. It's really not until he encounters Melian, you know, after he's tossed the now glamir at their feet and be like, you know, here in payment of my, you know, fostering my. And she's like, you're angry at the wrong person. You know, this is not where you want to leave this. That's when it finally breaks. And he finally, you know, day has come again for him and it's. It's too late. I mean, he. He, you know, it's. It's essentially the end of his life at that point. Endure. Endure and hope.

[Sara Brown]

Yeah. I think for anyone who has felt despair. And despair is right down the bottom.

[Alan Sistoe]

Of that hole, boy, isn't it?

[Sara Brown]

If you felt despair and you're the other side of that, then you can remember that you're the other side of that. And if you start to feel that or if you feel it again, then you can remind yourself that you were the other side of that at some point. There's so many things that I've. I've learned from Tolkien's work. It means so much to me. It has pulled me out of that hole on more than one occasion. And yes, in my life, I can look back at a time when I felt utter despair, and I'm the other side of that. And I don't know if it made me stronger. It made me different. And now when I have a bad day, I do remember this is a bad day. I'm allowed to feel that it's a bad day. I don't have to berate myself for the fact that this is a bad day, but I can also remember that it doesn't last forever. Might do for Hurin, but. Yeah, not for me.

[Alan Sistoe]

Yeah. And. Well. And you always have to have hope that it won't last forever. Even if it turns out that it will. Right. Even if that end is close. It just comes back to what Gandalf says, that despair is for those who see the end beyond all doubt.

[Sara Brown]

Yes.

[Alan Sistoe]

Do we who live our lives in A, linear fashion from time A to time B to time C, never to experience A again and not to experience E until we've experienced D? Can we ever see the end beyond all doubt?

[Sara Brown]

No, of course we can't. You know, but it's kind of. I don't know. I've always thought it's a bit. It's all right for you, Gandalf, to say, oh, despair is just for those who see the end beyond. And I'm like, yeah, except. Yeah, you know, except we can actually trip and fall into that and feel it, truly feel it. But it's what we decide to do after that. Do we, like Denethor, give up or do we not? Do we pick ourselves up and stick one foot in front of the other? Even though it is such an effort?

[Alan Sistoe]

It is. I almost hesitate to stick a second thing in there, but I really want to because this is something that I've personally felt and developed over the last maybe decade. So it's more like during the time in the show, as I have read this and studied this and made this, honestly made it my life's work. I mean, that's what I do now, full time. I didn't start out to do that, but I feel like the other thing, the other lesson that I've learned from the texts, I feel like I've become somebody who has more empathy and more pity and more understanding for others than I used to have. And I feel like that's such a. It's such a blessing. It's such a great thing to be able to do. It's hard. It hurts, and it's that. But it should. That's the point. I think back to our time in the Houses, not the House of Healing. It was Steward and the King, right, with Eowyn and Faramir and how. Yeah, at first it was that he pitied her, and then at the end he's like, no, no, no. Know, it's. It's not that I pity you. It's that I see these things in you, right?

[Sara Brown]

He.

[Alan Sistoe]

He grows beyond just this sort of surface emotion and comes to listen to her story and hears who she is and loves her for who she is. And, yeah, there's so many other examples. I mean, obviously general pity, you know, for Gollum and seeing Frodo have that and Sam struggle with that, to understand that, you know, the fate of men is supposed to be what he has been denied. And. And I. I love. I go back to something that Sean really taught me when we were talking about these things. He deserves death, Right? We talk about that, I think so often as a punishment, Gollum deserves to die for the evil that he's committed. And yet he points out, actually, he does deserve that. He should be free of this, wow, that's a light bulb moment. And you start to have a little bit of empathy, even for Gollum. Because if you don't have some empathy for. Well, for Smeagol, at least, I think you're reading it wrong. So I think that's the second lesson I've certainly learned and taken to heart. Great question, Seth. And listeners, please, not that you have to share your answers with us, but you need to answer that yourself. You know, what is it that you have learned and that you have been able to practice in your daily life as a result of reading this incredible work? Fantastic question. Great, Sarah. I think we have time for one or maybe two more questions. If the first one's short, what do we have?

[Sara Brown]

Okay, well, next up is Jenny.

[Alan Sistoe]

Hmm. Jenny, welcome back.

[Jenny]

Yeah, well, actually, this question sort of piggybacks on that, because my question is about the Orcs. And are they redeemable in this world? And is there, in Tolkien's world, such a thing as a good Orc? Or could there be a heroic Orc or a noble Orc? I'm thinking that after, in the. When the Towers Baradur Falls, there's this wonderful description of the enemies being totally without will anymore. And so are the Orcs. Then is their very nature just to reflect the will of Sauron, or do they have any autonomy? Now, I'm thinking also of the little conversation that Shagrat.

[Alan Sistoe]

Shagrat and Gorbag, you bet, they have.

[Jenny]

This little conversation about what they're gonna do.

[Alan Sistoe]

But what are they going to do? They're going to set up shop and rob people.

[Jenny]

But when Aragon says that the slaves will be free and will. The slaves of Sauron are now free, does that include Orcs or the Gondorians and the Men of Rohan go around just hunting Orcs all the time?

[Alan Sistoe]

Yeah, it's essentially like a Orc genocide. It's a very good question, Jenny. And I can only say that we don't know because Tolkien didn't know. He wrestled with that to the end of his life. He knew that his original origin story about them being twisted elves was problematic. Like, that's. I can't get around that. Because the elves are immortal creatures. Their spirits live as long as the planet of Arda. I mean, it's. He knew that that was a problem, so then he started trying to look at other solutions. Okay, maybe they're twisted men, but, boy, this is such a. This is a question that can never be answered with what we have. But I certainly want to hear what Sara has to say on it.

[Sara Brown]

I agree. And it's a problem.

[Alan Sistoe]

It is, isn't it?

[Sara Brown]

But Tolkien recognized it as a problem.

[Alan Sistoe]

Yeah.

[Sara Brown]

Could we ever have a heroic Orc is a really interesting question.

[Alan Sistoe]

Yeah. That angle of it is something I hadn't considered.

[Sara Brown]

Yes. Yeah. That's a fantastic question, because even heroism is immensely subjective and it has to be contextualized, because what would be a hero to an Orc? Right. What would other Orcs look for, for heroism amongst other Orcs? I suspect it might be a different type of heroism to what humans would look for, to what Hobbits would look for. Elves would look for so heroism is a very cultural kind of idea.

[Alan Sistoe]

And even within a same culture, it changes. I think of the heroism of Boromir, which is a martial heroism and, you know, he dies saving Merry and Pippin.

[Sara Brown]

Yeah.

[Alan Sistoe]

But then I think of the heroism of Faramir, the humility to say, if I found this thing by the side of the road and I, who love Gondor, who loves the White City, if I alone could save her, I wouldn't. That's a totally different kind of heroism. So what. What makes a heroic arc, right?

[Sara Brown]

And Frodo's heroism is something totally different.

[Alan Sistoe]

Again, absolutely. Ultimate self sacrifice. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, my hunch. When you ask, like, what would an Orc look for? You know, what would be. What would an Orc think of as a heroic Orc overthrowing the. The next level up? Right. Like, Orcs are slaves. Orcs are enslaved. They are constantly under threat of, you know, punishment and death. And simply living free is like the biggest dream that Gore Bag and. And Shagrak can come up with. Living free to still be highwaymen. But that would be awesome for them. And if they were to be able to do that, they would be heroes to everybody else. Or to quote Firefly, big damn heroes, sir. I mean, that's what they would be.

[Sara Brown]

And see me soar. Or is it too soon to say that one?

[Alan Sistoe]

Yeah, it's. That's a tough one.

[Jenny]

Free the Orcs.

[Alan Sistoe]

Yeah, free the Orcs. I mean, that's the thing. What would they be like if they were free? But if they were free, wouldn't they go and try to kill everybody they can get their hands on? I mean, by this point in the end of the Third Age, are the Orcs so far corrupted that they are no longer redeemable? I think Tolkien would have to say there is no point at which a created being could be irredeemable.

[Sara Brown]

That was his problem.

[Alan Sistoe]

But their actions are almost always going to be in line with somebody who's irredeemable. They're not going to do good in the moral sense of the word.

[Sara Brown]

But, I mean, at what point have they ever had any choices?

[Alan Sistoe]

Exactly. I mean, I come back even to sort of the music is as fate to all else. And how much individual responsibility do you put on the Elves when they are simply living out the history that was written for them? Men are a different story. We know men have free will, so they have full moral culpability. That's why I get on Turin so much, even if he was cursed, because when he was in Doriath he wasn't under the power of the curse, but that's a whole nother episode. Orcs, like you said, what choice did they have? Has good ever been modeled for them? Have they ever been told, this is good? But we don't do that. Of course not.

[Sara Brown]

No.

[Alan Sistoe]

So what moral culpability can we lay on them? I don't know.

[Jenny]

That's.

[Alan Sistoe]

Again, I think this is just another example to those questions that Tolkien's like, wow, I really wrote myself into a corner on this one. What do I do? I mean, evil is still evil, right? I mean, that's. That's a tough one. I don't have any answers beyond that. Which is to say, I don't have an answer.

[Sara Brown]

But, you know, we're in great company because neither did Tolkien.

[Alan Sistoe]

Neither did Tolkien. And it's a really good question to ponder. I think it really helps us as readers and even as people to think through that question.

[Jenny]

What would compassion for the Orcs look like?

[Sara Brown]

Not treating them as something you can just, you know, commit genocide against?

[Alan Sistoe]

Well, right. I mean, now that they're free, you leave them alone unless they commit a. A crime against you.

[Sara Brown]

Like, it's like, make them subject to actual laws of Middle Earth as free people.

[Alan Sistoe]

Yeah. Like, okay, you don't know what good is. Let me tell you what good is. And you are now expected to live in this framework. You can, you know, do as you want to do amongst yourselves, but you cannot take these men, kill these people, do this thing, and then subject them to punishment if they violate those laws. I mean, they do. They are a lawless people. People. But only because, you know, Sauron only had a couple laws. Basically, do what I say. It's the only law that mattered, you know, in. In Sauron's world. Yeah, that's a fair thing. Basically, you're. You're absolving them of their previous acts. It's sort of like, you know, giving blanket amnesty and, And a fresh start, but then a clear understanding of what they're allowed and not allowed to do. That would be fair. That would be just certainly more so than genocide. I can't imagine Aragorn going around with, you know, Orc death squads to kill the last of the Orcs that are hiding out somewhere. It just doesn't feel quite like him. All right, Sara, I think we have time for just one more. Who's last up?

[Sara Brown]

Last up will be Olivia. Okay, this is probably going to be too long, so I would. I would take any humorous answer to this.

[Alan Sistoe]

Okay, you're asking the right people, then.

[Sara Brown]

I am not funny. If you exclude this kind of reconstructed Galadriel bit we were talking about earlier, the Valar only ever send one person, one elf back. Why Glorfindel? He's so pretty.

[Alan Sistoe]

Well, he is. He's so pretty. Now I'm seeing him. I'm too sexy for a mon. Too sexy for a mon. The serious answer is he's just the only one whose name. Yes, I. I do believe that others would have. But I think it would be rare. I also think if you're an elf and you're getting your new body, wouldn't you want to be someplace where nothing's gonna happen to it? I mean, I'm gonna choose to get, you know, reborn and stay in Valinor, thank you very much. I'm in paradise right now.

[Sara Brown]

Yes.

[Alan Sistoe]

Why do I want to go back to that place?

[Sara Brown]

Yeah. 0 out of 10 would not do again.

[Alan Sistoe]

Exactly. Yeah. The Yelp review for Middle Earth is pretty awful. Yeah. I do like, though, the idea that he's just simply too good looking, too pretty for Valinor.

[Sara Brown]

He's shiny. He's pretty. He's all blonde and golden.

[Alan Sistoe]

I mean, he's got bells on his horse, for crying out loud.

[Sara Brown]

I know. I mean, come on.

[Alan Sistoe]

How much more can we take? You just.

[Sara Brown]

No. He struts around at Rivendell going, I'm so shiny. I'm so pretty. Little swish of the cloak, you know.

[Alan Sistoe]

Excuse me. How many here have slain a Balrog?

[Sara Brown]

No, just.

[Alan Sistoe]

That's what I thought.

[Sara Brown]

Okay.

[Alan Sistoe]

That's right. Good fun. Yeah. That's right. That's right. Yeah, I know. So who's going to pick what's for dinner tonight? Balrog slayers, raise your hand. Okay. I get to choose. Yeah. Yeah. He's always pulling up. People are like, oh, Glorfindel again. When he's gonna stop about that stupid Balrog. He got lucky.

[Sara Brown]

Never.

[Alan Sistoe]

He's. You know, he stabbed him with his helmet. Do you think he did that on purpose?

[Sara Brown]

He'll tell you he did.

[Alan Sistoe]

Yeah, that's right. Yeah. Lucky accident. All right. Good stuff. That was fun. And, yeah, actually, Kevin points out in the chat that the helmet guy was a Thalion, because I'm mixing and I'm. I'm. It's too late in the episode for me, and I am clearly, you know, just losing it a little bit. But, yeah, no, Glorfindel was not the.

[Sara Brown]

Spike past 1am here. What's your excuse?

[Alan Sistoe]

Empathy. I. I am in your quarter to one right over there. Yeah, it is. It is. Thank you for that correction. Because otherwise that would have gone unsaid and I would have gotten a million emails about how wrong I was. Instead, I'll just get emails about how wrong I was briefly, which, you know, at least I don't have to answer those.

[Sara Brown]

That's not so bad.

[Alan Sistoe]

All right, folks, thank you for joining us for another episode of the Prancing Pony podcast. Please, please, please come back next week, because that is when Sara and I begin our extended time, And I mean 10 episodes in the tale of Aldarian and Arendus.

[Sara Brown]

Can't wait. Because it's also known as why premarital counseling might be a good idea.

[Alan Sistoe]

Definitely, definitely.

[Sara Brown]

Yeah. Or maybe divorce would have been a fabulous notion.

[Alan Sistoe]

Yeah, yeah. The numenoreans inventing no fault divorce might have been a better choice.

[Sara Brown]

Quite possibly. Anyway, Alan and I want to thank the members of Team PPP editor Jordan Rannells Barnum and Becca Davis, Social media manager Casey Hilsey, event and Patreon, community coordinator Katie McKenna, graphic artist Megan Collins and website guru Phil Dean.

[Alan Sistoe]

Please take a minute to check out the prancingponypodcast.com that's where you're gonna find show notes, outtakes, as well as prancing Pony ponderings from ye olden days. We are changing vendors for our merch at the moment, but our online storefront should be back soon. You can get all sorts of cool PPP merch, including the amazing chapter art that Megan's been doing for us for three plus seasons.

[Sara Brown]

And that is just stunning work.

[Alan Sistoe]

It is, isn't it?

[Sara Brown]

Now, we're all about the books here at the Prancing Pony Podcast, so be sure to also visit our library page. We try to make sure that any book we've mentioned on the show is linked there for you to purchase. And we do get a small amount of compensation when you make your purchase. So thank you for that.

[Alan Sistoe]

Indeed. We also want to thank our patrons at the Kirdance contribution tier. I'll start with Demay in Alaska, Chad in Texas, Lance in New Jersey, Joseph in Michigan, Kathy from North Carolina, Brian in the uk, Jerry from Washington, Irwin from the Netherlands, Ben in Minnesota, Anthony in Texas, Zaksu in Illinois, Joshua in Massachusetts, Lucy in Texas, Erica in Texas, Vivian in California, and James in Massachusetts.

[Sara Brown]

There's also Ann in Kentucky, Sean in New Jersey, Mason in California, Maureen from Massachusetts, Olivia in London, Robert in Arizona, Nick in Wisconsin, Lewis in South Carolina, Thomas in Germany, Craig in California, Kevin in Massachusetts, Bruce in California, Joe in Maryland, Dee Scott in California, Jeffrey in Michigan, and Paul in Colorado. Thank you you all so very much.

[Alan Sistoe]

For your support indeed. Thank you.

[Sara Brown]

Now make sure you don't miss any episodes of the Prancing Pony Podcast. Subscribe now through Spotify, Apple Podcasts, Amazon Music, or your favorite podcast app.

[Alan Sistoe]

And one last thing. As always, don't forget to send your thoughts, comments, and most of all your really difficult questions to Sarah. I'm sorry to barman@the prancingpony podcast.com Baran.

[Sara Brown]

Does have of a lot lot of mail to sort through though, so we'll try to get to you just as soon as we're able.

[Alan Sistoe]

As always though, this has been far too short a time to spend among such excellent and admirable listeners and question askers.

[Sara Brown]

But until next time, how Farewell folks. Martha listens to her favorite band all the time.

[Alan Sistoe]

In the car, gym, even sleeping.

[Sara Brown]

So when they finally went on tour.

[Alan Sistoe]

Martha bundled her flight and hotel on Expedia to see them live. She saved so much she got her seat close enough to actually see and hear them. Sort of. You were made to scream from the front row. We were made to quietly save you. More Expedia made to travel savings vary.

[Sara Brown]

And subject to availability.

[Alan Sistoe]

Flight inclusive packages are atoll protected. Your sausage McMuffin with egg didn't change your receipt did. The sausage McMuffin with egg extra value meal includes a hash brown and a.

[Anthony]

Small coffee for just $5 only at.

[Alan Sistoe]

McDonald's for a limited time. Prices and participation may vary.