384 – Ticket to Ride

Summary

---

The Prancing Pony Podcast – Episode 384: "Ticket to Ride"

Date: October 5, 2025
Hosts: Alan Sisto ("A"), Dr. Sara Brown ("B")
Main Theme: An introduction to the deep-dive reading of Tolkien’s "Aldarion and Erendis," the unique tale from Unfinished Tales, and a preview of the Prancing Pony Podcast’s 10th season plans.

---

Episode Overview

In this season-opening episode, Alan and Sara set the stage for a 10-episode journey through "Aldarion and Erendis," Tolkien’s only substantial character-driven narrative from the Numenorean era. They guide listeners through the structure and intent of Unfinished Tales, review major themes to expect in the coming weeks, and discuss both personal relationships and the wider historical consequences woven into the tale. As always, the hosts’ rich knowledge is paired with easy humor and Tolkienian asides–plus a few well-timed pop culture references.

---

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. PPP Season 10: Structure and Content

• PPP’s Evolving Cast & Focus
  Sara joins Alan for 10 episodes, to be followed by appearances from James Tauber, Matt ("Nerd of the Rings"), Don Marshall, and possibly a return of Sean Marchese.
• Primary Text:
  Season 10 will focus heavily on Unfinished Tales, beginning with a deep-dive into "Aldarion and Erendis," then covering "Tal-Elmar," "The History of Galadriel and Celeborn," "The Disaster of the Gladden Fields," "The Hunt for the Ring," "The Drúedain," "The Istari," and "The Palantíri."
  • Notable Quote:
    “You and I are going to spend 10 or so episodes working our way through the story of Aldarion and Arendis, beginning today.” (A, 07:16)
• Future Plans:
  Alan outlines a 5-year roadmap:
  • Season 11: The Great Tales of the First Age.
    “Matt’s going to cover the Children of Húrin with me. James...the Fall of Gondolin, and Sara, you and I are gonna be tackling Beren and Lúthien.” (A, 06:36)
  • Seasons 12–13: A slower, two-year walk through The Silmarillion.

---

2. Introducing Unfinished Tales as a Book

[11:00–18:00]

• Christopher Tolkien’s Editorial Choices:
  • Unfinished Tales consciously diverges from The Silmarillion’s "completed narrative" approach, opting instead to present grouped but non-cohesive stories, sometimes as incomplete annals.

    “…the narratives in this book are indeed on an altogether different footing. Taken together, they constitute no whole…a collection of writings, disparate in form, intent, finish and date of composition...” (B quoting Christopher, 16:02)

  • The value of these fragments is the “voice heard now for the last time of Gandalf teasing Saruman... or describing... how he came to send the dwarves to... Bag End...” (A, 17:09)
• Why Read Unfinished Tales?
  • Even with “imperfections of form,” the “voice” and glimpses into lost ages are treasures for the devoted.
  • Sara: “Honestly, it fills gaps and introduces new things...” (B, 18:31)

---

3. On “Aldarion and Erendis” Itself

[21:02–28:40]

• Its Uniqueness:
  • The "Mariner’s Wife" is described by Alan as “…a story unique in its content among my father’s writings…” (A, 21:02), and Christopher Tolkien nearly left it out for being so incomplete and requiring significant editorial intervention.
• Editorial Challenges:
  • Tolkien’s work here is a blend of detailed timelines (“annals”) and narrative bursts; Christopher had to edit for flow but claims not to have changed meaning.
• Letter 276 Context:
  • Tolkien himself claimed it "nearly complete" in 1965 but Christopher found it the “least developed.”
• Key Thematic Preview:
  • Pride and Stubbornness:
    Both Aldarion and Erendis display pride and an unwillingness to compromise:

    “The stubbornness of both Aldarion and Erendis. It’s going to be pretty clear that neither character is especially willing to change anything for the sake of the other.” (B, 25:37)

  • Hubris and Communication:
    Their flaws combine into “failure to communicate” à la Cool Hand Luke (A, 26:10).
  • Consequences Beyond the Personal:
    Their marriage’s failure shapes Numenor’s destiny—including gendered succession and imperial expansion.

    “It’s about the choices they made that then had knock on effects.” (B, 28:33)

  • The “Shadow”:
    The narrative also foreshadows the wider shadow creeping over Númenor and its connection to Middle-earth.

---

4. Textual Deep-Dive: Aldarion’s Family & Early Years

[32:21–53:17]

a) Meneldur, Aldarion’s Father

• Characterization:
  • The classic philosopher-king: wise, gentle, patient, fixated on astronomy ("Meneldur" = “Servant of the Heavens”; also called “Starwatcher”).
  • In stark contrast to his son’s active, restless spirit.

    “He is said to have loved dearly the island, but he didn’t consider the sea much because of his love of the stars...” (B, 39:34)

• Primogeniture & Silmarien:
  • Meneldur was the third child, yet the only son; his elder sister, Silmarien, is ancestress to the kings of Gondor and Arnor, but could not inherit due to agnatic primogeniture.
• A Numenorean Pattern:
  • Hobbies become defining life passions for both father (astronomy) and son (the sea and ships).

b) Almarian & Vëantur (Aldarion’s Mother and Grandfather)

• Almarian, praised mainly for beauty—a nod to Tolkien’s use of medieval literary conventions regarding women’s portrayal.
• Vëantur was the famed captain of the King’s Ships and Aldarion’s primary mentor and influencer—a true catalyst for Aldarion’s passion for the sea.

c) Aldarion’s Traits and Upbringing

• Physical: Tall, strong, vigorous, golden-haired, “ready to mirth and generous, but prouder than his father and ever more bent on his own will.” (A reading, 46:55)
• Character Red Flags:
  • The pride is relative (his father having “none”) but “bent on his own will” worries both hosts:
  • Sara: “It just sounds like a spoiled child to me.” (B, 51:04)
• Sea-Love and Restlessness:
  • Aldarion’s early apprenticeship under Vëantur. By 25, he’s already an accomplished captain.
• First Voyage to Middle-earth:
  • At 25, he journeys with Vëantur to Lindon and Eriador, meets Círdan and Gil-galad.
  • Alan: “What an adventure, huh? ...you could totally understand why he’s not going to turn that down.” (A, 48:56)
• Aftermath:
  • Meneldur senses a change: “His eyes were brighter, but they looked far away.”
  • His true love: not Middle-earth’s lands or peoples, but the sea itself—“That love and desire never left him until his life’s end.” (A reading, 62:35)
    • Sara: “That last sentence carries a lot of weight.” (B, 62:39)

---

5. Aldarion’s Early Voyages & Founding of the Guild

[73:36–86:54]

• Follow-Up Voyages:
  • Receives his own ship, Númenórean, from Vëantur; embarks on multi-year explorations to the coasts of Middle-earth and returns with ever greater knowledge and ambitions.
  • By age 50, he’s spent 9 out of 14 years away from home.
• Building Infrastructure & Community:
  • Uses knowledge from Círdan to improve Numenor’s shipbuilding and harbors.
  • Founds the “Guild of Venturers”—like an adventurer's club on an epic scale.

    “One ship clearly isn’t enough for Aldarion. He forms this Guild of Venturers, which I love the name. It sounds like a group of people sitting around the table playing D&D. I would absolutely join that group.” (A, 83:46)

• Alienation from His Father:
  • Meneldur grows cold to Aldarion’s voyages, fearing that “he sowed the seeds of restlessness and the desire of other lands to hold.” (A reading, 74:10)
    • Alan: “That is foreboding in a huge way.” (A, 74:13)

---

6. Narrative Structure & Unanswered Questions

• The “Aldarion and Erendis” tale is a mix of annal entries and full narrative—a unique challenge and texture, per Christopher Tolkien’s introduction.
• Sara’s sharp query: “Why this story?” Why did it survive, and why was it preserved? The answer, Alan suggests, may lie in the pivotal historical alliances it describes and its rippling effects down Númenor’s history.

---

7. Sociocultural Commentary

• Women in Númenorian Society:
  • Noted pattern in Tolkien: Women often defined by beauty unless they play a central narrative role (e.g., Lúthien, Haleth).

    “There is this tendency to talk about the beauty of the women as being most important rather than their deeds...” (B, 41:47)

  • Parallels drawn with the cultural context of Tolkien’s medieval inspirations.
• The Sea as Mistress:
  • The phrase “become enamored” is repeated—first regarding the lands, later the sea.

    “It actually feels stronger than just that he had loved the great sea; that become enamored of...” (B, 70:53)

  • Alan: “It’s a greater depth and it also suggests almost a little bit of passivity... The sea has done this to him.” (A, 71:05)

---

8. Major Themes to Watch

• Pride, Stubbornness, Hubris: The twin flaws that doom Aldarion and Erendis—and, by extension, impact generations.
• The Burden of Kingship vs. Individual Longing:
  • Aldarion’s love for the sea is in direct conflict with his duties “as king and father of this isle.” (A, 57:59)
• Consequences Beyond the Personal:
  • Their disputes shape Numenor’s policy, gender succession, and expansion.
  • The text sets up the narrative that personal failings translate into historical tragedy.

---

9. Listener Q&A: What If the Silmarillion Had Been Published with Lord of the Rings?

[87:24–95:08]

• Sara and Alan agree:
  • While Tolkien always hoped for both works to be published together, it likely would’ve been disastrous for publishing and the genre.
    • Sara: “Oh, no, no. Terrible idea.” (B, 94:16)
  • The difficulty and density of The Silmarillion would have turned off many readers.
  • The separate publication allowed the Lord of the Rings to build the fanbase that would later be “enamored” of the rest—and for fantasy as a genre to flourish.

    “Do I think it would have been better maybe for a very small number of us. I think it would have been worse for the vast—in general.” (A, 91:14/B, 91:17)

---

Notable Quotes & Lighthearted Moments

• Pop-Culture Parody & Humor
  • Puns, “dad jokes,” and asides about Aldarion being the “class clown.” (A, 49:54)
  • Alan’s musical references—“Sail away, sail away…” (A, 55:11), “...the sea is very much Aldarion’s mistress.” (A, 71:24)
  • Sara on the fate of Aldarion’s mother: “She doesn’t have a great deal of agency within the story.” (B, 41:37)
• On Blame and Complexity
  • “Because we have been kind of hard on Aldarion... trust me, it will become Arendis bashing soon enough.” (A, 79:48)
  • “These are fully three-dimensional characters with so much good and so much like—you just want to throttle them.” (A, 80:15)

---

Timestamps for Key Segments

| Segment | Timestamp | |----------------------------------------------|-------------------------| | Episode Intro / PPP Purpose & Approach | [02:02–04:01] | | Season 10 & Future PPP Plans | [04:01–09:44] | | Unfinished Tales Overview & Value | [11:00–18:00] | | "Aldarion and Erendis" – Editorial Issues | [21:02–27:18] | | Major Themes Preview for the Tale | [25:17–28:40] | | Introduction to Númenor’s Royal Family | [32:21–46:11] | | Aldarion’s Upbringing and Voyages | [46:54–69:24] | | Guild of Venturers and Estrangement | [73:36–86:54] | | Listener Mail: Silmarillion Publication Q&A | [87:24–95:08] |

---

Conclusion

Episode Takeaway:
The Prancing Pony Podcast lays the groundwork for a nuanced exploration of “Aldarion and Erendis,” promising listeners both a close reading and big-picture reflection on how a single, ill-starred relationship helped shape the fate of Númenor and its descendants. With characteristic insight and wit, Alan and Sara make clear that even Tolkien’s “uncompleted” tales are essential reading for those eager to understand the heart—and heartbreak—of Middle-earth.

Next Episode Preview:
The journey continues with the long-awaited introduction of Erendis—the “other doofus” whose choices, as Alan and Sara tease, are just as pivotal—and problematic—as Aldarion’s.

---

End of Summary

Transcript

[A]

Folks, a few months ago I got to introduce you to the softest and coziest sponsor we've ever had here at the podcast, Lola Blankets. And now that the weather's getting a bit cooler, I have a really good excuse to use this soft, stretchy, stylish blanket. Makes me look forward to winter. Lola Blankets are blankets done right too. Feels like fur, but the thing is it's ultra soft vegan faux fur. They're machine washable, double hemmed, and based on my own experience so far, stay absolutely flawless with no pilling or shedding as we approach gift giving season. I just got to tell you, these blankets will make you one very appreciated gift giver. Lola has a lot of colors, designs, sizes and styles to choose from, including some pretty trendy designer collaborations. Not to mention matching pillows that bundle beautifully by the blankets. Alliteration for the win, folks. It's what we do here. For a limited time, our listeners are getting a huge 35% off their entire order@lola blankets.com by using code Pumpkin Pony at checkout. Just head to Lola blankets.com that's L O L A blankets.com and use code pony for 35% off. Now after you purchase, they'll ask you where you heard about them. Please support the show and tell them we sent you. Wrap yourself in luxury with Lola Blankets time. It's always vanishing.

[B]

The commute, the errands, the work functions, the meetings. Selling your car. Unless. Do you sell your car with Carvana? Get a real offer in minutes, get it picked up from your door. Get paid on the spot so fast you'll wonder what the catch is. There isn't one. We just respect you and your time. Oh, you're still here. Move along now. Enjoy your day. Sell your car today. Carvana. Pick up. Fees may apply.

[A]

Good evening, little masters, and welcome to episode 384 of the Prancing Pony podcast, where, well, my exercise is rather in thought than in the deeds of the body.

[B]

But are you also into astronomy?

[A]

Astrology, Right? Maybe. No.

[B]

Oh, don't let Christine Larson hear you say that.

[A]

I was kidding. I was totally kidding.

[B]

Folks, pull up a bench in the common room and join us. I'm Sara Brown, the shield maiden of Rohan, and I'm here with the man of the west who is all too often ready to mirth, Alan Sisto.

[A]

Let that be the very last time that I am compared to Aldarion. Folks, join us as we meet most, but not all of the key characters in the first part of Eldarion and Erendis.

[B]

Yeah, on condition that you don't compare me to Erendis either. How's that?

[A]

No, I promise. I promise. No.

[B]

Marvelous. Well, no matter whether you came to Middle Earth through the books, the films, the TV show, or something else, each of you is welcome here in our common room. The Prancing Pony podcast continues in our 10th season. Wow. Of reading and talking our way through Middle Earth with conversations, digressions, and even speculations.

[A]

Not to mention a few puns and dad jokes here and there. But our purpose, our intent, our goal, our objective is to dive deep into the lore, discussing the story, our favorite characters and themes, Tolkien's inspirations, and a whole lot more.

[B]

Yeah. While we take the work seriously, the same cannot be said about ourselves. We're just a couple of friends chatting at the pub. And we're glad you joined us.

[A]

Yeah, and I'm sure you'll be glad you joined as well. But before we get to tonight's chapter discussion, it's time for a different sort of introduction.

[B]

Yeah, because usually we start with a Philology fair diving deep into some word nerdery. Or maybe we do a this Week in Tolkien History where I think you can kind of get the point of what that one's like.

[A]

Yeah, pretty much what it says on the tin. Sometimes it's a kingly gift segment where we talk about a new book rul release. Or maybe we'll just have a chat with one of our patrons in the north wing.

[B]

Yeah. But as we get ready to dive into Unfinished Tales and our 10 part look at Aldarion and Arendis, we thought it might be good to talk about the direction this year will take and what plans Alyn has as we begin season 10 of the PPP.

[A]

Well, you know, it is hard to believe, but it has been three years now since my good friend Sean Marchese, the Lord of the Mark, had to step down from his role as my full time co host.

[B]

Wow, three years already?

[A]

I know, it's just wild. Like it feels like just yesterday. And I'm like, you're doing what? No, no, no. This is. You're kidding me, right? It's a prank. Who's is it? Who's got the camera on me? Sean? No, man, you're pulling my leg. He's been back a few times, obviously it's always great to welcome him back. But here's the thing. I've really had the privilege of working with a number of wonderful co hosts, including you. No false modesty. A lot this season, I'm happy to say. It's Going to be more of the same. Sarah will be with me for another 10 episodes of season 10, right up to the winter holiday break.

[B]

Oh yes, I am going to be your almost Christmas present.

[A]

You want to look at it that way.

[B]

And who else do you have planned to join you this year?

[A]

Well, planned is the key word, of course, as these sorts of things can change people's schedules sometimes go sideways, might have to improvise. But the plan for now is to roll with some of the same co hosts who have had long runs with me over these last couple of seasons. We've really developed some rapport and banter with folks like you. And then James Tauber is going to come in and then either the Nerd of the Rings or Don Marshall, depending on their schedul. And maybe Sean will make it back for a few episodes.

[B]

Oh well, that sounds like it'll be a fun season anyway.

[A]

I hope so.

[B]

Yeah. So the question everyone wants to know what will the PPP be covering this season? Alan?

[A]

Well, that's a fair question. I'm primarily covering Unfinished tales in season 10, just not including the parts that we covered last season as sidebars to the appendices. Right. We already did a description of the island of Numenor back in episode 345 with Don Marshall and then the Nerd of the Rings. And I did a long run through the story of Kira and Eoral plus the Battles of the Fords of Ice, and those ran from 354 all the way to 362. And then of course you and I last year spent a couple of episodes in the Quest of Erebor and 372 and 373, those were fun. But of course I'm still not covering everything else because I'm not going to cover the Great Tales of the First Age in Unfinished Tales. Right. That's of Tuor and is coming to Gondolin and Narn E hin Hurin, as I'll be covering all three of the great tales next year in season 11.

[B]

Yay.

[A]

That's going to be so much fun.

[B]

Oh yeah.

[A]

I'm not yet sure of the order, whether I'm going to go chronological or published or some combination thereof, but I do know that Matt's going to cover the Children of Hurin with me. James is going to work with me on the Fall of Gondolin, and Sara, you and I are going to be tackling Baron and Luthien.

[B]

Yes. So excited.

[A]

That's going to be so much fun. And by the way, Folks, if you want a small scale preview of the story of Tuor and is coming to Gondolin, be sure to check out First Age Fridays. Today's Tolkien Times. Starting with week 82, I began an 18 part or so run through that story in little 8 to 10 minute chunks. So perfectly bite sized stories of Tuor.

[B]

Okay, so, you know, obviously I'm really glad you could tell us what you're not covering. So can we rewind maybe try this a little bit again? What will you be reading and discussing this season?

[A]

Fair enough. All right, you and I are going to spend 10 or so episodes working our way through the story of Eldarion and Arendus beginning today. After that, James Tauber is going to come in and he and I will sort of as an appendix or epilogue to Aldarian and Arendus, spend a few episodes on the story of Tal Elmar out of the peoples of Middle Earth. Because it's, it's a very Numenor adjacent story indeed. Yes, very important, I think, especially right after Eldarion and Arendus. And then James and I are going to spend six episodes on the history of Galadriel in Celeborn and all the fun things we find in that chapter.

[B]

Oh, wonderful. Of course, Christopher did mention that that was the most messed up thing ever in the world. And that's a direct quote, of course.

[A]

Yeah, that is. That's. That's not a paraphrase. I can hear Christopher saying that right now.

[B]

Christopher's voice ringing through that.

[A]

That's right. And then of course, the Tolkien reading. The episode will come out as usual, typically around March 25, and I'm hoping that we could do what we did last year, bringing in several folks to each pick a reading or two, whatever the theme may be. But we'll see about that. But that's right between the block with James and the third block. And I'm not yet sure who's going to join me for that. It'll be covering the disaster of the Gladden Fields, but the hunt for the Ring and the Druidyne. And that's going to be a 10 episode block with either Matt from the Nerd of the Rings or Don Marshall. The last two months of the season, since that will run us through May, we'll cover the Istari and the Palantiri. And I can now tell you that the plan. Please forgive me if this doesn't come through, but Sean Marchese is planning to come back to go through those two chapters with me.

[B]

How splendid.

[A]

That's going to be great to have him back. No guarantees, of course, life gets busy, but it is the plan.

[B]

Okay, Well, I love it when a plan comes together, so let's hope that happens, right?

[A]

That will be nice. Yeah.

[B]

Okay, so now we've kind of set what we're going to do in season 10, but any glimpse at future seasons?

[A]

Well, you know, I have chatted long term plans for the show before here and there, usually on our Discord server in the live recordings or in the hangouts again with our patrons. The hope is that I've got at least five more years of the ppp. This year with Unfinished Tales, next year with the Great Tales, like I talked about earlier. Then after that a two year walk through the Silmarillion, sort of coming back to where it all started and doing it at a slightly slower pace. I still, still Corey, Corey Olson's words ringing in my ears when he came on at the end of season one and we were talking about how it's taken us a year and a half and 44 episodes to make our way through the Silver Rally. And he goes, yeah, that might be a little fast. Now that is Corey saying that.

[B]

I mean that would usually cover the Eina Lindelay for Corey.

[A]

The thing is, he's not wrong. Like as Sean and I proceeded through the Hobbit of the Lord of the Rings and realized just how much we were getting out of that sort of four or five page per episode discussion pace, which is about what we maintain through the Lord of the Rings, we're like, wow, we could have done so much more with the Silmarillion. So I'm going to be doing a two year walk through the Silmarillion for that exact reason. And then after that, at least a season, maybe two, depending on Tolkien's non legendarium works. So things like Smith of Wooten, Major Leaf by Niggle Rover, Random even, plenty more. Whatever's out there. And after that? Truthfully, I don't know yet. I honestly don't. But that's five years. I'm sure there will be more. After all, why stop when I'm just shy of 600 episodes and 1000 hours of content at that point?

[B]

Well, I can't think anybody would want you to, Alan.

[A]

I can't think that anybody would want me to keep going. But you know, that's just me. Oh, hang it up already, man. Tire, sir?

[B]

No, no, no, no, no. I'm sure we can come up with some more projects for you.

[A]

I hope so.

[B]

So anyway, as excited as I am to get into the text before we actually start Aldarion and Arendis, I think we should introduce the Unfinished Tales as a book itself. So, Alan, do you want to take us off with that?

[A]

I do. I think it's a really good idea. I mean, we've done this before. Like, we didn't do it last year when we did the appendices because we were bouncing all over. We started with the epilogue. We spent, you know, a dozen episodes in Unfinished Tales. But here I think we need to introduce Unfinished Tales as a volume at. To be pedantic, it's actually Unfinished Tales of Numenor and Middle Earth, but nobody calls it that. We really need to start, though, by going back to the introduction to the Silmarillion, which was published four years after Tolkien's death. So that means it was in 1977. It's hard to believe, now that I think about it, the Silmarillion will be precisely 50 years old when I begin covering it two years from now in seasons 12 and 13.

[B]

Well, that's excellent timing, though.

[A]

I know. I can't say it was on purpose. I realized that literally as I was putting this together, I'm like, oh, wow. Oh, no way. 50th celebration.

[B]

We gotta do perfect serendipity, that one. Okay. So Christopher Tolkien talks about how, thinking about it all as a single narrative, it became long ago a fixed tradition and background to later writings. But at the same time, it was far indeed from being a fixed text. As difficult as it would be, Christopher admits it fell to him to try to bring the work into publishable form.

[A]

That's right. And this is still the Silmarillion. Right. So he realized that telling the story as he knew it to be, as he puts it in truth, a continuing and evolving creation extending over more than half a century. Doing it that way would actually confuse readers and the way he put it, submerge what is essential.

[B]

Yep. So he opted for a single text, working to create an internally consistent narrative. And he speaks at length about the difficulty of that task, especially with the later chapters.

[A]

Yeah. In fact, Tolkien himself often acknowledged the difficult of this. We look at letter 276, which he wrote to Dick Plotz. He was the Thane of the Tolkien Society of America, since merged with and become the Mythopoeic Society, wrote this letter in 1965 where Tolkien said that the Silmarillion is written, but lacks a thread on which its diversity can be strung, and that it will require the need to acquaint an audience with an unknown mythology without reference to the Tales and to relate a number of long legends dependent on the mythology or without holding them up with explanatory digressions.

[B]

No pressure.

[A]

None. Not at all. Yeah. See, that's the thing about a podcast. That's great. I don't have to worry about holding people up with explanatory digressions. This is what I do.

[B]

That never happens. Right. Yeah. I mean, Explanatory Digressions is literally your.

[A]

It's my subtitle. Yeah.

[B]

Yes. So, yeah. In fact, we see Christopher express regrets about some of those choices later, as he eventually wrote the volumes of the History of Middle Earth. And of course, writing the volumes of the History of Middle Earth then gave him a whole different overview. Overview over what his father had done. So he was bound to look back then on things like Silmarillion and think, oh, I could have done that better.

[A]

Yeah, that's.

[B]

That's fair enough. So in the Intro to Unfinished Tales, he says that he chose to present the work not in the form of an historical study, a complex of divergent texts interlinked by commentary, but as a completed and cohesive entity.

[A]

And of course, he is writing that in the Intro to Unfinished Tales, but he's reflecting back on the writing of the Silmarillion. Yeah, and thank goodness he did it that way. Completed and cohesive entity. Because as much as you and I love the history of Middle Earth, publishing the Silmarillion as a completed and cohesive entity made it more successful in the marketplace, which is what gave Christopher the opportunity to then write Unfinished Tales and then eventually all 12 volumes of the History of Middle Earth. I mean, the Silmarillion was a success. 375,000 copies printed at publication. Yeah, Just like, by the way, first editions just aren't all that rare.

[B]

So now, with all of that freshly in your mind, let's look more at his Intro to Unfinished Tales. Right, so first, the timeline. Right. Professor Tolkien died in 1973. The Silmarillion was published in 1977, and Unfinished Tales was published three years later in 1980. Christopher Tolkien, at this point, he's now been responsible for the posthumous literary work of his father for seven years. And as he writes, the problems that confront one given responsibility for the writings of a dead author are hard resolve.

[A]

Well, they would be another statement of the century. Right, yeah. And he acknowledges, look, some people in my position would publish nothing at all because Tolkien was critical in exacting. Those are Christopher's words. And that. That sort of nature about his own writings, as Tolkien very much was we can see that in the letters and in his own notes. He would not want anyone, arguably, to read that, his own stuff, without a lot more editing. So I could see why some people would not publish anything. But he knew he couldn't do that with the Silmarillion. I mean, that was. His father wanted that published so badly. He'd been trying to work on that since, you know, letter 151 with Milton Waldman and even before that. And that's why he gave us that earlier quote about the Silmarillion being a completed and cohesive entity.

[B]

Yeah, yeah. But Unfinished Tales stands in stark contrast to that.

[A]

Yes, it does.

[B]

As he points out in his own words here, the narratives in this book are indeed on an altogether different footing. Taken together, they constitute no whole. And the book is no more than a collection of writings, desperate in form, intent finish and date of composition. And in my own treatment of them, concerned with Numenor and Middle Earth.

[A]

Sounds like you just threw them all together and slapped a cover on it. And I know that's not what he did, but he's very much downplaying his role. But he is trying to say, look, I'm not trying to tie these together in a cohesive story. You are reading bits and pieces.

[B]

Yep.

[A]

And some of them may be more complete than others. Some of them are very unfinished, like Aldaria and Horrendous. But, you know, they're worth reading. And this is what he gets into next. He says the method of putting all this together may differ greatly from what he did for the Silmarillion. But he points out that the reason for publishing it is similar to the reason for publishing the Silmarillion quote. Not different in its nature, though it is of lesser force. And he argues, rightly, we believe, that the same people who wanted to read about those incredible moments in the Silmarillion will discover that imperfections of form in these tales are much outweighed by the voice heard now for the last time of Gandalf teasing the lordly Saruman at the meeting of the White Council in the year 2851. Or describing in Minas Tirith after the end of the War of the Ring how it was that he came to send the dwarves to the celebrated party at Bag End. By the arising of Ulmo, lord of waters out of the sea at Vinyamar, by Mablung of Doriath hiding like a vole beneath the ruins of the bridge at Nargothrond, or by the death of Isildur as he floundered up out of the mud of Anduin. Spoilers, I guess, but seeing as how Christopher's put that in the introduction of the text, I can't worry too much.

[B]

No, then that's fair. And even with that said, he knows that he says much in the book will be found unrewarding by readers of the Lord of the Rings, specifically those who feel small desire of further exploration for its own sake. Yeah, I think he was underestimating all Ton's readers. But, you know, maybe.

[A]

I mean, when you realize, you know, that the Silmarillion has gone on to sell less than 10% of what the Lord of the Rings has sold. Yeah. I mean, a lot more people will read the Lord of the Rings than the Silmarillion, and I dare say a lot more readers will read the Silmarillion than Unfinished Tales, which is really a shame because they're missing out on some incredible stuff.

[B]

Oh, boy. Honestly, it fills gaps and introduces new things and. But any.

[A]

We'll get into it.

[B]

So back to what Christopher says. He says, my father would certainly not have thought them wrong.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And he goes on to cite letter 160, which we discussed last year in 373, talking about the quest of Erebor.

[A]

Right.

[B]

Because that's the letter where Tolkien expresses his frustration that the appendices quote in truncated and compressed form will satisfy nobody. Not those who love the details and history, but also not those who just enjoy the heroic romance story and would rightly ignore the appendices. Can you imagine if he'd been just let loose? The appendices would be the same length as the Lord of the Rings.

[A]

Oh, yeah. We'd have two volumes of appendices.

[B]

I'd be here for that.

[A]

And I would absolutely eat those up 100%. But get what he's saying. Like, there are people who just want to read the story and be done with it.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And I get that, but I mean, sure, I'm going to say you're missing out, but that's how you want to read the book. That's how you want to read the book. And Christopher's perspective here is like, ah, do I. I know. Some people are just not gonna like this. Well, he's right. Okay.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

But there's some of us who will. And that he argues persuasively that for some, including himself and certainly us quote, there is a value greater than the mere uncovering of bits of lore. And so his effort is worth it.

[B]

Oh, absolutely. Especially for nerds like us. So he then goes on to Explain the sort of unfinished nature of some of the sections in the book.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And we'll be sure to look back at this intro as we move forward, as we open different Stor.

[A]

But first, it's time to introduce this story, the one that we're going to spend the next 10 episodes or so talking about Aldarion and Arendus.

[B]

Fabulous. But before we get to Christopher's discussion, we're going to start with Tolkien's own comments on it, also found in letter 276, the one to Dick plots that Alan referred to earlier. And there Tolkien says that the Akalabeth has been fully written and that the rest of Numenorean history is only in annal form, except. Except for one long Numenorean tale, the Mariner's Wife, now nearly complete, concerning the story of Aldarion the sixth king and his tragic relations with his father and his wife. This is supposed to have been preserved in the Downfall when most of Numenorean lore was lost, except that that dealt with the First Age, because it tells how Numenor became involved in the politics of Middle Earth.

[A]

Problem is that even though Tolkien says the story was then nearly complete, Christopher tells us in his introduction that, quote, it was left in the least developed state of all the pieces in this collection. In fact, he says it required so much of his own editorial intervention that he actually doubted whether or not he should include it. But he says, quote, it's very great interest as the single story, as opposed to records and annals that survived at all from the long ages of Numenor before the narrative of its end, the Akalabeth, and as a story unique in its content among my father's writings, persuaded me that it would be wrong to omit it. And boy, am I glad he did not omit it. Talk about a story unique in its content. Yes, this really, this deep character study is so different from anything else he's written.

[B]

It really is. And yeah, like you, I would. I would be so sad the fact that we have it. I think it is a gift, it.

[A]

Really is, to the foes of Mordor and everybody else.

[B]

Well, yes, but then he gives us a really insightful look into just how his father put stories together and why, as a result, it's often difficult to build a full narrative accordingly. So he writes to appreciate the necessity for such editorial treatment. It must be explained that my father made much use in the composition of narrative, of plot outlines, paying meticulous attention to the dating of events to nobody's surprise.

[A]

To nobody's surprise. Exactly. I mean, folks, you were listening to the show, you saw this at length in the Two Towers, Sean and I, relying very heavily on the chronology and how detailed Tolkien was in creating and refining the timelines, sometimes causing himself all kinds of headaches to make things fit. But the problem with this style is it creates a story that looks rather like a series of entries in an annulment, sort of like Appendix B, the Tale of Years. Like, if you read that, it's not a story, it's telling you things, but it's not a story, it's a history timeline. It is. It's a history timeline. And in just this one story, Christopher points out that is Eldari and Horrendous quote, there are no less than five of these schemes, varying constantly in their relative fullness at different points, and not infrequently disagreeing with each other at large and in detail.

[B]

Oh, great. And if that's not difficult enough, Tolkien would often move from these annal entries into, quote, pure narrative, especially by the introduction of short passages of direct speech. And in fact, in the last of the plot outlines for Eldarion and Arendis, Christopher says that, quote, the narrative element is so pronounced that the text runs to some 60 manuscript pages.

[A]

It's a plot outline. That's 60 pages. You've lost the point, Professor. This is not an outline. The thing is, though, what was even harder for Christopher is that tendency of the professor to go from Tales of Years type annals to full narrative was often gradual, requiring Christopher to rewrite quote much of the material in the attempt to give some degree of stylistic homogeneity throughout its course.

[B]

Now, fortunately, those rewrites were, quote, entirely a matter of wording and never alters meaning or introduces unauthentic elements, which is useful.

[A]

Yeah, that certainly helps. We are told that while the story ends suddenly, there is no quote certain explanation as to why Tolkien abandoned it. There was a typescript completed in January of 1965, followed by another two page typescript that Christopher believes to be the latest of all these materials, that was entitled Indus e Kiriamo the Mariner's A Tale of Ancient Numenora, which tells of the first rumor of the shadow. Now, since this is such a long story, we're about to get to it, I promise. We also want to lay some groundwork by briefly mentioning a few key themes that we want you to kind of be keeping an eye out for, things we're going to see and discuss over the next 10 episodes. And I think it's fairly clear the first and most obvious theme is pride. It's present in both Aldarian and Arendus. It manifests differently in each of them. But it's very clearly sort of the. Like, you will not miss this one. And if you are, you're not paying attention.

[B]

Yeah, that's absolutely true. I mean, it is connected, but separate enough that I think we need to call it out when we see it. The stubbornness of both Aldarion and Arendes. It's going to be pretty clear that neither character is especially willing to change anything for the sake of the other.

[A]

Or for anybody else, for that matter.

[B]

Or for anybody else.

[A]

You think about Aldarian and his father, it's the same thing. He just.

[B]

Just.

[A]

Is just recalcitrant, you know, he just. No way is he going to change anything.

[B]

Yep.

[A]

Which makes me think of Feanor. Right. I mean, nobody changed his mind ever. You know, it's like.

[B]

Yes, yes. But pride plus stubbornness equals hubris. And we know what happens to that usually.

[A]

Yeah, that's true. So these two themes, of course, will combine to lead to that Cool Hand Luke moment. What we've got here is failure to communicate.

[B]

Well, that was something.

[A]

And Sara's trying to rack her brain for American cinema references, but that's from. From an old Western with Paul Newman, and it's sort of a pop culture line. But the idea here is these two people don't communicate very well.

[B]

They really don't, though there's also, as the title Tolkien gave it initially suggests, an underlying rise of shadow. Right. So there's actually a lot going on in this story that it's not just these two complete doofuses who make an absolute mess of their marriage.

[A]

Yeah. And of their daughter, unfortunately. Oh.

[B]

That we have so much we need to talk about with an poor child.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Yeah. But one of the important things about the tale of Aldarion and Arendis is that actually the effects ring outside of their marriage. It's not just about these two idiots. It's about all of the effects that go on outside of that. Because there are ramifications of their choices and decisions that resonate down the years. Right.

[A]

All the way down the years. 100%.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

So, you know, from Aldarion's rather overwhelming hobby, which is, you know, getting on board ships.

[A]

Building ships.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Going away for years at a time. Yeah.

[B]

Which then leads to the encroachment of the Numenoreans onto the shores of Middle Earth, which is a huge story.

[A]

Yeah. There's a reason that we're doing Tel Elmar after Eldarion. Horrendous, folks.

[B]

Exactly. And in actual fact, it will resonate all the way down through the third age. And then as we will get to, it's the choices and decisions that Aldarion makes about his daughter and Calumet and the succession.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

That will then also have consequences.

[A]

Yeah. Let's put it this way. You're going to come to wish that the change from agnatic primogeniture to just strict primogeniture, you're gonna wish that happened two generations earlier.

[B]

Oh, my goodness.

[A]

With Silmarian.

[B]

But you know, we'll get to that happened with Silmarian. They really did her wrong.

[A]

I know. They sure did.

[B]

Yeah. Yeah. I mean, we've got so much to talk about with these, these two foolish, foolish people. Because like I said, it's not just about the fact that they really should never have been married. And when they were married, they were atrocious to each other.

[A]

They were.

[B]

It's about the choices that they made that then had knock on effects. So there's so much to talk about.

[A]

We're gonna plug this into the entire legendarium. It's gonna be a lot of fun. So.

[B]

Yes. Yes.

[A]

As the weather starts to cool down here, finally my wardrobe changes. I get to start wearing things that get the job done. Warm, durable, built to last. And Quince delivers each and every time with staples that will carry you through the season. Quince believes quality should never be a luxury. Their lineup is filled with great products at reasonable prices. 100% Mongolian cashmere sweaters from 60 bucks. In fact, my Quince jeans have become my absolute go to perfect fit and the right feel throughout. I've ordered a couple of shirts from them on my own and now I've got my eye on their suede bomber jacket. Perfect for some cool fall evenings. Now Quint's partners directly with ethical manufacturers to cut out the middleman and give you top quality at half the cost of similar brands. So layer up this fall with pieces that feel as good as they look. Go to quince.com pony for free shipping on your order and 365 day returns. That's Q-U-I-N C E.com pony free shipping and 365 day returns. That's a full year. Quince quality doesn't have to be a luxury. Quince, a few months back, I told you about Ridge. All right? They sent me one of their wallets and a key case. I've been using them every day since. I love how Their modern take on the wallet holds plenty of cards while taking up very little space. And another thing I like is how their stuff is made out of so many really cool materials. I mean my carbon fiber ones are amazing, but they've got aluminum, leather, titanium and more. In fact, they've got 50 styles, materials and colors to choose from. And they all come with a lifetime warranty. So quite literally, the last wallet you'll have to buy. All of Ridge's wallets have RFID blocking technology built in to keep you safe from digital pickpockets. And you can get the Ridge airtag attachment, so you'll always know where you put your wallet or keys. Ridge isn't just about wallets though. They make pens, phone cases, even suitcases. And everything they make comes with a lifetime warranty, free shipping, and a 99 day risk free trial. So head over to ridge.com now. For a limited time, our listeners get 10% off at Ridge by using Code Pony at checkout. Go to ridge.com and use code pony and you're all set. Now after you purchase, they're going to ask you where you heard about them. Please support the Prancing Pony Podcast. Tell them our show sent you you. Now in just a minute we'll meet Aldarian. But before we do, I want to take a minute to thank the amazing community that has grown up around this show. After all, there is a lot more talk going on at the Prancing Pony podcast than just us.

[B]

There is because the PPP really does have a warm and welcoming listener community. If you've got questions or you just want to talk about how much you love Middle Earth, be sure to check out our common room on Facebook and across all social media. On Facebook, just look for the Prancing Pony podcast. And yeah, there's a page. But you're going to want to join the group for that great fan community.

[A]

Indeed you will. On every social media platform other than Facebook. We're just Prancing Ponypod and you can find our subreddit @r prancingponypod. And be sure to check out my daily show, today's Tolkien Times over on YouTube or on your favorite podcast app. Get your daily Middle Earth fix with everything from Middle Earth map Mondays to First Stage Fridays. Be sure to watch or listen at YouTube.com princingponypod Sarah, would you do the honors and start us off with Aldarian and Arendus?

[B]

Oh, I am so excited about this. Okay, so Meneldor was the son of Tar Elendil, the Fourth king of Numenor. He was the king's third child, for he had two sisters named Silmarien and Isilme. The elder of these was wedded to Elatan of Andunie, and their son was Valandil, lord of Andunier, from whom came long after the lines of the kings of Gondor and Arnor in Middle Earth. Meneldor was a man of gentle mood, without pride, whose exercise was rather in thought than in deeds of the body. He loved dearly the land of Numenor and all things in it, but he gave no heed to the sea that lay all about it. It for his mind looked further than Middle Earth. He was enamoured of the stars and the heavens. All that he could gather of the lore of the Eldar and Edain concerning Eyar and the deeps that lay about the kingdom of Arda, he studied, and his chief delight was in the watching of the stars. He built a tower in the Phorostar, the northernmost region of the island, where the airs were clearest, from which by night he would survey the heavens and observe all the movements of the lights of the firmament. When Menelda received the sceptre, he removed as he must from the Phorostar and dwelt in the great house of the kings in Armenelos. He proved a good and wise king, though he never ceased to yearn for days in which he might enrich his knowledge of the heavens. His wife was a woman of great beauty named Almarian. She was the daughter of Vyantur, captain of the king's ships under Tar Elendil. And though she herself loved ships and the sea no more than most women of the land, her son followed after Viantar, her father, rather than after Meneldur. The son of Meneldur and Armarion was an Ardil afterwards, renowned among the kings of Numenor as Tar Aldarion. He had two sisters younger than he, Aelin El and Almiel, of whom the elder married Orcaldor, a descendant of the house of Hador, son of Hadoldir, who was close in friendship with Meneldur, and the son of Orhaldor. And Aelinl was Soronto, who comes later.

[A]

Into the tale, you know, as Tolkien often does in a story about persons X and Y, he begins with the parents of one of them.

[B]

That's just where he does, to give us the context.

[A]

Yeah, or to be precise, the father here. I mean, that's who he starts with, with starting the story of Eldarion with Meneldor but even Meneldor's story starts with who he's the son of Meneldor. Being the son of the fourth king of Numenor, Tar Elendil, he ruled Numenor from second age 590 to 740.

[B]

And in the next chapter in Unfinished Tales, which is called the Line of Elros, the Kings of Numenor, we learn that Meneldr was born in the year 543, when his grandfather Tar Amandil, was still on the throne.

[A]

That's right. Now, keep in mind that as dawn and I talked about last season when we were discussing Numenor, Tar Elendil may have been the fourth king, but in practicality, he really was just the third king. Elros's son, Vardamir, who was 381 years old when he inherited the scepter from Nigh Immortal, Elros, immediately passed authority to his son Amandil. So really, Meneldor was born during the reign of the second king of Numenor. I'm saying that because at the time, it's still a sort of newish kingdom, Right? They're getting their feet under them, so to speak. I mean, yes, it's been more than 500 years, thanks to their long lifespans, but, you know, we're early in the reign of the kings. But I want you to keep in mind those lifespans, because that's going to become very relevant in the story as we move forward.

[B]

Absolutely. So, coming back to Meneldor, his name originally was Irimon. We don't have precise word nerdery on this name, but eldamo.org suggests that it might be a compound of Irima, a Quenya word meaning desirable, lovely, beautiful, and the masculine suffix on. But he took his name, Meneldur, from his hobby as an amateur astronomer, his name being a compound of Menel, the heavens. The dura suffix meaning servant, Menel, we see, right?

[A]

We see that in Meneltarma, the pillar of heaven, Armenelos. We even see it in Sam's invocation of Elbereth in Cirith Ungol, when he cries out, o Menel Palandiriel, which means from heaven, gazing afar, that dur suffix, which is also often endur. It's something we see in Isildur, servant of the moon, or Earendur, servant of the sea, which ends up in a shortened form, earnur. So we see that pretty frequently.

[B]

Right? But going back to the line of Elros's entry for him, we learn that he was so into astronomy that not only was his name servant of the Heavens. He was also called Ellen Tirmo, Star.

[A]

Watcher, servant of the heavens. Star Watcher. You know, I'm taking that name, though, if my birth name was Desirable One. Thanks, mom, that's a really nice name, but I don't wanna.

[B]

You would so get your butt kicked in the playground.

[A]

Middle school would be just awful for a guy named Beautiful One.

[B]

Can you imagine? No, no, no.

[A]

I'm Star Watcher. I don't know who that guy is. Yeah, so.

[B]

Yeah. Oh, boy.

[A]

But unlike the three kings before Elendil, so Elros and the one day Vardamir and Amandil, his oldest child, that is to say Elendil's Tar. Elendil's oldest child was not his son. Meneldur was actually his third child. So we read here his eldest child was his daughter, Silmarien. And she is a central figure not just in Numenorean history, but in Middle Earth history, because it is from her and the lords of Andunie that Elendil and the kings of Gondor and Arnor are descended.

[B]

Yep, indeed. But thanks to the Numenorean tradition of agnatic primogeniture, where only the male line descendants can inherit the throne, Silmarion does not become the fifth ruler and first queen of Numenor. That honor will go to her granddaughter. But we'll get there much later in the story.

[A]

Much later. That's like eight or nine weeks from now. Or seven. Yeah, probably seven weeks from now. So back to whom Meneldor is as a person and a king. And this is all important to set up Eldara, because it's a really stark contrast. Meneldur is described as a man of gentle mood and very importantly, without pride. And if we look at his additional descriptions in the line of Elros chapter, he's also there described as wise, but gentle and patient. I mean, these are really quality traits in a king or in a person, period. He did have intellectual and philosophical pursuits rather than deeds of the body. I don't know that that's necessarily be, you know, a good or bad thing. You could certainly pursue either one. But I. I feel like this is telling us a little bit more about who this man is.

[B]

Right.

[A]

And. And it's very much going to be set up as a contrast to Eldarion.

[B]

Yes, yes. This. This guy is a thoughtful, sensitive philosopher.

[A]

Yeah, philosopher king, definitely.

[B]

Exactly. And he could not be more opposite to his son. No, as we will see.

[A]

As we will.

[B]

He is said to have loved dearly the island, but he didn't consider the sea much because of his love of the stars. Even going so far as to build an observatory. An observatory. He only left, probably reluctantly, after he inherited the scepter and he had to live in Armeneolos.

[A]

I'm like, there's room for the throne here in the observatory. Everybody can just come up to the forestar to see me.

[B]

It would be fine. In line with the description of his character, we are told he was a good and wise king.

[A]

You know, we were talking about how there's a lot of contrast between Meneldur and his son Aldarion. And it's going to be clear. There's a lot. But there's one thing that's very clearly a strong tie. They both get really into their hobbies.

[B]

Oh, very much.

[A]

I mean, Meneldur builds an observatory when he's not even king yet. Like, I gotta have something to do. I'm gonna go build an observatory, watch the stars.

[B]

Just obsessed.

[A]

He is. He is. So finally we're told about Meneldor's wife. This would be, of course, Eldarion's mother, Almarion. And we get her descent as well. It's important because her dad plays a big role in this story.

[B]

He really does. Almarion's father was Vientor, who was the famed captain of the king's ships. In the Tale of Years, that's Appendix B to the Lord of the Rings, we learn that Viantor was the first of the Numenoreans to return to the coasts of Middle Earth.

[A]

That's right. He sailed his vessel, the Entulese. Or return to the Grey Havens, where he met up with Ciridan, Gil Galad and some men from Eriador. And we might have a chat about those men in the Patreon postscript script. Now, we don't learn about her character traits here, just her appearance. A woman of great beauty, Sara. It does seem like many women are described solely by their appearance, or at least by their appearance first. Does that seem to be what you encounter?

[B]

That is a pattern, isn't it? Isn't it? And to be honest, we don't learn a heck of a lot more about Eldarion's mother. She does appear in the narrative. She has a few things to say, but she doesn't have a great deal of agency within the story.

[A]

Arendys's mother actually features more than Eldarion's mother.

[B]

I think later on, it's arguably more interesting in the interactions with her daughter, to be honest.

[A]

I agree.

[B]

Yeah. There is this tendency to talk about the beauty of the women as being most important rather than their deeds with the men, it's more likely to be their deeds and who they are and.

[A]

All that kind of thing, what kind of a leader they are, what their character is. I wonder how much of that. Again, I'm not offering excuses for Tolkien, but I'm wondering how much of that is an echo of the sort of medieval style of writing that he's echoing here. I mean, he's very much modeling his style after those sorts of tales, which of course would have done that, would have focused on the beauty of the queen and the beauty of the fair maiden and all of this, again, not trying to justify it necessarily, but explain like, you know, how much of that is simply just because of the style of story he's trying to tell here.

[B]

Yeah, that's true. And I will forgive him in many occasions because he does when he. When he lingers on the beauty of the women. Let's talk about Luthien, for example, and Galadriel and even Eowyn. They do then move past.

[A]

They do.

[B]

Just being beautiful.

[A]

Yeah. The women he writes are often pretty amazing, even if there aren't very many of them. Them, yes, Melian's beautiful. Yes, Luthien's beautiful. Galadriel, Eowyn, but they're also very powerful or very brave or very strong or very determined or very, you know, lots and lots of amazing characters that the women that he writes. I mean, even the villain women, Ungoliant is not to be trifled with. She gets the better of Melkor. Some of the women in his story are pretty phenomenal, but.

[B]

Yeah, indeed, yes. You know, stories of people like Haleth, for example, are really interesting because he doesn't linger on the physical qualities of Haleth. It's all about what she does.

[A]

No, I don't think we get much about Haleth's appearance at all. It's all about her strength and bravery and leadership.

[B]

Indeed. And then we can contrast against the. Someone like Queen Beruthiel.

[A]

Ah, the crazy cat lady queen. Yeah.

[B]

I have a sneaking soft spot for Queen Beruthiel, you know, I thought you might.

[A]

I thought she might.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Well, yeah, well, I don't know when we'll actually get to cover her at length. She's an interesting character for sure.

[B]

She really is, actually. I think there's things to talk about with her for sure. So, back to the text. We also get a bit here about how most of the women of Numenor don't particularly love the sea. And Aeldarion's mother is no different. And this is going to be important.

[A]

A repeat theme. Yeah.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

Yeah. Let's put it this way. Orendus is very much like her in this regard. I wonder, though, why it seems to be a trait of the women of Numenor that they don't particularly love the sea. I've got to suspect that it's simply the same reason. We're going to find out. Irendis doesn't like the sea. The men are gone for a long time when they sail. A long time. Years. This isn't like years. I'm going to take a weekend and go fly across the world to a meeting and come back on Monday day. This is. I'll see you in a couple years. And they're just expected to, you know, maintain the house, raise the kids, do the things they're supposed to do and just wait.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Patiently.

[A]

Can't blame.

[B]

Isn't that lovely? Isn't it?

[A]

But that, of course gives us the segue into Eldarion, because we read that her son followed after Vaantur, his grandfather, rather than Meneldur, the guy who wanted to pursue the philosophical stuff and astronomy and all that, that. Which of course then leads us to the brief introduction to Aldarion, born as a nar. We'll save the word nerdery for a philology fair either next week or the week after, I think. Along with his sisters AEL and Almiel, they get what is essentially their only mention in the whole story. Yep, it's Almiel's only mention. And Ilanel is only mentioned once again in reference to her son Saranto. Typical, right?

[B]

It. This is kind of typical.

[A]

If they don't involved in history, they don't get a mission.

[B]

No, exactly. So unless the woman is a very central character, again with Melian, Luthien, Galadriel, et cetera, et cetera. Tolkien often completely ignores them and they don't even get named. But if they get named, then often it's because of their connection to the main male characters around whom the story is being told and the connection to.

[A]

The heirs or the potential. I mean, because that's the role that Soronto plays is because of the male line descendants in all of this, you're going to find that Soronto might have been a future king.

[B]

Yeah. So we're given a brief teaser about Soronto becoming important to the story later. Yeah. And that is very, very significant because of who he is. He is, of course, if you look at who his mother is. His mother is Eldarion's sister. Therefore he is Aldarion's nephew. Right. And that would put him in line for the throne if the. If Aldarion had no son. That will be important.

[A]

Spoilers.

[B]

Yeah, spoilers.

[A]

Speaking of Aldarion, let's go ahead and introduce the guy.

[B]

Right, off you go then.

[A]

Alyn Aldarien, for so he is called in all tales, grew swiftly to a man of great stature. Strong and vigorous in mind and body, golden haired as his mother, ready to mirth and generous, but prouder than his father and ever more bent on his own will. From the first he loved the sea, and his mind was turned to the craft of shipbuilding. He had little liking for the north country and spent all the time that his father would grant by the shores of the sea, especially near Romenna, where was the chief haven of Numenor, the greatest shipyards and the most skilled shipwrights. His father did little to hinder him for many years, being well pleased that Eldarion should have exercise for his hardihood and work for thought and hand. Aldarion was much loved by Veentur, his mother's father, and he dwelt often in Veentur's house on the southern side of the Firth of Romenna. That house had its own quay, to which many small boats were always moored, for Veantur would never journey by land if he could by water. And there as a child, Eldarion learned to row and later to manage sail. Before he was full grown, he could captain a ship of many men, sailing from Haven to Haven. It happened on a time that Veentur said to his grandson, Ana Adelia, the spring is drawing nigh, and also the day of your full age. For in that April eldarion would be 25 years old. I have in mind a way to mark it fittingly. My own years are far greater, and I do not think that I shall often again have the heart to leave my fair house and the blessed shores of Numenor. But once more, at least, I would ride the great sea and face the north wind and the east. This year you shall come with me, and we will go to Mithlond and see the tall blue mountains of Middle Earth and the green land of the Eldar at their feet. Good welcome you will find from Cir and the shipwright and from King Gil Galad. Speak of this to your father.

[B]

And so it begins, huh?

[A]

What an adventure, huh? I mean, I gotta say, that sounds awesome. I get to go meet the king and Kyrdan I get to see these new lands.

[B]

Yeah, well, you could totally understand why he's not going to turn that down.

[A]

No, with Grandpa, I mean, this guy's awesome.

[B]

Extended holiday with grandpa sounds great.

[A]

Seriously. Yeah.

[B]

Yeah. But there's a few little red flags waving merrily in the breeze.

[A]

Just a little bit. Yeah, there are.

[B]

Yeah. Yeah. Because now we properly meet. Meet Aldarion, so we get a physical description first. Great stature, strong and vigorous. He's got blonde hair like his mum. Interesting that we get Minelda's personality first. In fact, I don't think we get a physical description at all.

[A]

We don't know if he's tall or short. We don't know if he's, you know. We only know he doesn't have a beard because he's from the line of Elronds. But other than that, we know nothing. Except most likely from this description of how he's got blonde hair like his mom, that he does not have blonde hair. Yeah, that's about all we know.

[B]

That's about it.

[A]

But we do get a glimpse also at Eldarian's personality. Just. He's ready to mirth. I mean, this is a guy who puts love to laugh in his dating profile. Oh, folks, I'm just going to ask somebody to do this because, sorry, you and I are both too old and too married to be on these apps.

[B]

Absolutely.

[A]

Get on an app, folks, and instead of putting love to laugh, just say you're ready to mirth and let us know how that works out. That's what I want to know.

[B]

All right.

[A]

But he's, you know, basically this guy's. He's the class clown. I mean, he's. He's ready to laugh all the time. He's in a good mood. He's jovial, I guess would be a better way to put it. He's generous as well, which is good. But we get the little red flag. You mentioned he's prouder than his dad. Now, I have to say that doesn't say a whole lot on its own because his dad was described as having no pride at all. So it's a pretty low bar. So is this like level one or two pride or is this like level nine or ten pride? Like, we don't know yet. We just know that he's prouder than his dad. And here comes that stubbornness bent on his own will.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

So we're starting to see already the hints of the things that will cause him trouble.

[B]

Yeah. Gotta be honest, when we think of a young princeling who Says he's bent on his own will. It just sounds like a spoiled child to me.

[A]

Yeah, that. That actually bothers me more than the pride. It bothers me more than. Because, I mean, ready to mirth is great. Generous is great. I want those things in a king. I want this to be a guy that, you know, is ready to laugh with his people and have joy and happiness and to be generous. Those are great traits. A little bit of pride isn't a bad thing on its own, but bent on his own will is already a little bit of a problem when you're 25.

[B]

Yes. Yeah, I would say so. So apart from all of that, we learned that from early on he loved the sea and was focused on building ships.

[A]

Building ships.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And I think that's really important that you note that, folks, because. Because it's not just that he loves the sea. You know, I mean, I'm thinking of like, Legolas loves the sea. Right. You know, he's. He's enamored of the sea as well, but he doesn't think, how do I conquer it? And I think that's the thing is Eldarion is already thinking in that sort of conquering mindset, how do I overcome the challenges of the sea? How do I get out there and how do I build a boat that can do more, go farther? And so he's already thinking that way, and that's just his mindset going forward again on its own. Not a problem. The fact, I mean, it's like, I like cars. I want to figure out how to build a car that's faster and. But this is. On its own, it's okay. But boy, it could be leading to problems. And folks, it will lead to problems.

[B]

It will lead to problems. And as you said, one personality trait possibly not an issue, but when they start to. To, you know, kind of pile one on top of the other.

[A]

Yeah, yeah. They become defining. And that's what we'll see with him.

[B]

Absolutely. So this whole being focused on building ships and loving the sea, this also translates into wanting to spend time near the shore rather than in the mountainous northern region where Mineldur was until he took the throne.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

So he has zero interest in Daddy's tower for a star. Yeah, yeah. It just, It. It just wants to be by the sea all the time. And for timeline purposes, Aldarion was born in second, age 700, and he would be 40 when his father took the scepter, which is actually. It's relatively young still.

[A]

Yeah. Especially for Numenorean. I mean, we'll talk a little bit more about Numenorean's aging in a little bit. But you know, at the time this is happening, because he is still a young man. Maneldor is perfectly fine with this, right? I mean, it keeps him active both physically and mentally. It's not like he's off building a Melkor worshiping cult or anything. I mean, you know, it could be and will be a lot worse than Numenor. He's just building boats, you know. Great. Go for it, son. Have fun, you know.

[B]

Better than having some layabout kid who doesn't come out of his room till midday.

[A]

Leave me alone, dad.

[B]

Yeah, exactly. So, yes, I suppose you can. You can understand why Minilda just almost encouraged this, really, Because.

[A]

And I'm sure he likes his father in law. I mean, how do you not like Vientur? He's pretty cool guy, right? And you know, you're married to his daughter, so you got to have a pretty good relationship with him. So you're like, hey, you know what? I may not be there, but that's okay. Vantur is there, right?

[B]

So he's safe, he's taken care of. He's got something that he's doing so that he's active rather.

[A]

And it's a good thing to have, you know, It's a good skill.

[B]

Yeah. So not surprisingly, given his interests and thus eventually the lack of connection with his father. Aldarion is very close with his maternal grandfather, the captain of the King's ships, who you were just mentioning there. And he often stays with him at a house that has its own dock.

[A]

This guy's got a property, right? I mean, he's got his own dock. So Aldarian as a kid learns how to row, then how to sail, and then how to captain. And he's not even 25. I mean, this is a very accomplished young man, no question about it. Very talented.

[B]

Yeah. Born to lead, obviously.

[A]

Yeah. Natural leader. So he's still 24. He's approaching his 25th birthday. That's when grandpa invites him. Come with me to Middle Earth. Sail away, Sail away. And, you know, introduce him to Kirdan and Gil Galad. But hey, go ask your dad, you.

[B]

Know, just adds a gratuitous Enya there in the middle of that.

[A]

Oh, I'm sure we'll also add some gratuitous Christopher Cross later on.

[B]

Oh, dear. Must you? Anyway, quick sidebar about him being 25. This is about the time that Numenoreans extended lifespans kick in. In.

[A]

That's right.

[B]

And we know that because in the nature of Middle Earth we get a lot more detail and we're likely going to return to this quite often. In the chapter on lives of the Numenoreans.

[A]

That's right there. Tolkien wrote that they grew at much the same rate as ordinary men. Gestation, infancy, childhood and adolescence up to puberty and full growth proceeded more or less as before. It was after that, Tolkien wrote that they quote, quote, then aged or wore out very much slower. So that a 200 year old Numenorean would be equivalent to an ordinary man in their mid-50s. And again, more on this later. I mean, Erendis has an extended lifespan as well. She's Numenorean, but she's not of the line of Elros. So the lifespans that differ between Aldarian and Erendis become a factor big time.

[B]

Very much, yes. Yeah. So back to the text. We didn't read the paragraph where Eldarion asks Meneldo, but we'll mention one line from that paragraph and that is his heart guessed that more hung upon this than his mind could foresee. Yeah, the Philosopher King was not stupid.

[A]

Yeah, he's wise. He's. There's something.

[B]

He knew at some gut level that this was a pivotal moment in Eldarion's life. But I mean, how's he gonna say no, right?

[A]

You know, like you said, he's going with grandpa who's like the most accomplished sailor ever, and he's gonna go meet the elves. That's a very important thing. At this point. The kings are still very much, much faithful. There is no King's Men faction to be anti elf. So he tells him, do as your heart calls on you. And by the way, just some word nerdery on Anya. Anna is child, but my child would actually be on Anya. O N N A N Y A. That gets shortened to just Anya as a term of endearment. But he does give him one warning, and this is an important one because he fails in this kind of. He says, well, kind of. He doesn't actually fall for the one thing that his dad thinks he's going to fall for. He says, don't fall in love with Middle Earth because this Numenor is the land where you're going to be king. And not just king either. I love the way he puts it. King and father of this isle. The role of the King of Numenor is more than just mere political leadership. It is a paternal role. It is a caring and loving and sacrificial role that the King needs to take on. And these are your people. This is your land. So don't fall in love with that land and we'll see what happens, won't we?

[B]

Yes. It's a shame that he was almost right. I know he was almost right.

[A]

Yes, almost.

[B]

When did making plans get this complicated? It's time to streamline with WhatsApp, the secure messaging app that brings the whole group together. Use polls to settle dinner plans, send event invites and pin messages so no one forgets mom 60th and never miss a meme or milestone. All protected with end to end encryption. It's time for WhatsApp message privately with everyone.

[A]

Learn [e-mail] this podcast is supported by FX's English teacher. Last year's critically acclaimed series returns to follow Evan, Gwen and Markie as they vie for their students divided attention. See why Cosmopolitan called its premiere season a master class of comedy while glamour raved. It's the year's funniest and most heartwarming new comedy series. FX's English Teacher. All new Thursdays on FX. All episodes now streaming on Hulu.

[B]

We told you about the amazing PPP community after our earlier break. If you are a part of that community and you want to enjoy something even more special, come join the Fellowship of the Podcast on Patreon. You get to be in the best discord community around. One that includes host hangouts and even live episode recordings.

[A]

That's right. And your support there is what enables me to work full time doing all of these shows. The Prancing Pony Podcast, Today's Tolkien Times, the Rings of Power Wrap up and my streaming show the PPP plays. And when you join, you also get episode postscripts ad free episodes, free merch and more.

[B]

Yep. And you can join these questions after Nightfall episodes or even appear as a guest in the north wing. Go to patreon.com prancingponypod to show your support and join the Fellowship of the Podcast.

[A]

And don't forget to rate and review on Apple Podcasts and Spotify. And please recommend us to your friends. And did you know you can do that now directly on Spotify? You can literally just share the show with your friends on Spotify. Sara, let's go ahead and take a look at what happens on that journey. I don't. Was this an all inclusive cruise? Did he get. Was there a casino on board? Did he get to.

[B]

Oh yeah, yeah, I'm sure there was. Yeah. With entertainment. Yeah. Every night and yeah.

[A]

The buffet laying out on the chaise lounge. Yeah. I mean, he is cocktails. All right, let's go. Somehow I think this ship was a little rougher than that.

[B]

I think it probably was. Okay, so here we go. It is said that Aldarion himself wrote records of all his journeys to Middle Earth, and they were long preserved in Romanna, though all were afterwards lost. Of his first journey little is known, save that he made the friendship of Cirdan and Gil Galad and journeyed far in Lindon and the west of Eriador, and marvelled at all that he saw. He did not return for more than two years, and Mameldur was in great disquiet. It is said that his delay was due to the eagerness he had to learn all that he could of Cirdan, both in the making and management of ships and in the building of walls to withstand the hunger of the sea. There was joy in Romenna and Armenelos when men saw the great ship Numeromon, which signifies west wings, coming up from the sea. Her golden sails reddened in the sunset. The summer was nearly over and the Eruhantalai was nigh. It seemed to Meneldor, when he welcomed his son in the house of Vientor, that he had grown in stature. And his eyes were brighter, but they looked far away. What did you see on ya in your far journeys that now lives most in memory? But Aldarion, looking east towards the night, was silent at last. He answered, but softly, as one that speaks to himself. The fair people of the elves, the green shores, the mountains wreathed in cloud, the regions of mist and shadow beyond. Guess. I do not know. He ceased, and Meneldo knew that he had not spoken his full mind. For Aldarion had become enamoured of the great sea and of a ship riding there alone without sight of land borne by the winds with foam at its throat, to coasts and havens unguessed, and that love and desire never left him until his life's end.

[A]

Well, that last sentence carries a lot of weight.

[B]

Oh boy, is that going to resonate through this tale.

[A]

So we passed on reading the first paragraph because again, we can't read everything. But that tells us when Veantur and Eldarion left on their journey. It was the spring of 725 of the second age. And it's also there where we see Aldarion described as the son of the king's heir and not the king's heir himself. And that's because, like we talked about earlier, Tara Lendil has not yet resigned the scepter. He won't do so for another 15 years. So Maneldor is not the king. Maneldor is the king's heir. Yeah.

[B]

All right. Yep. Now, we picked up with the bit about record keeping, that Aldarion himself is said to have written reports about all of his trips. Now, unfortunately, though they were kept in Romana, they would have been lost in the downfall of Numenor.

[A]

Yeah. Along with everything else. All the maps, all the records, everything. But that leads me to wonder, what about this record? Who is the scribe or historian relating this story of Eldarion and Arendus and when was it written?

[B]

Yeah. I think an equally interesting question is why. Why this one? Yeah, yeah. Why would you make.

[A]

Why is this the story that you're going to keep? Because there are so many stories you could talk about. You could write a story about the kings that rejected the last of the elves, going, guys, you really don't want to do this. No, you really, really don't want to do this. You don't understand which one of us should be jealous of the other. Right? That whole series of ambassadorial visits from the elves trying to salvage the Numenoreans would have made for a great story and a really good cautionary tale. Like, why do we have this story?

[B]

Right.

[A]

I think there's some reasons, but it's one. Because it's an unfinished story. We don't have that information. We don't know what is the context of this story, who. Who's the writer, who's the intended audience, and when was it written. Though we will later, I think, get a clue about sort of like the latest. It could have been written. But that's. That's for later. Yeah.

[B]

Yep, absolutely. We get a few details about this first journey, because a few details are all that there are. We know. Yeah, we know. He bec friends with both Ciordan and Gil Galad, which of course, is going to be very important.

[A]

Very important. I mean. And that actually might be the why this story. Right. Because if there is one moment that is pivotal in Middle Earth history, it is this developing friendship between the men of Numenor and the elves of Lindon. Because Numenor comes to their rescue, you know?

[B]

Yes. Yeah.

[A]

And not just once either, but it's incredibly significant. Yeah, very. So Aldarion actually spends most of his time working with Cirdan, right? He's learning more about shipbuilding. Because if there's. There's a better ship right, on the planet than Kiradan, I don't know who he is. And not just how to build better ships. But also how to improve the harbors, how to build harbors that can withstand more and more violence from the waves and storms.

[B]

And that's going to be important for when the Numenoreans, of course, expand out onto the shores of Middle Earth.

[A]

Yeah, we'll see him establish Vignolande, I think, in the very next episode.

[B]

Yep. So we learn that he traveled in Lindon and into the western parts of Eriador. But significantly, he was gone for over two years.

[A]

A short trip for him. He comes back near the end of summer in second age 727. And there was much rejoicing. Yay. Autumn is just around the corner as the Numenorean holiday of Thanksgiving was coming up. In a couple of episodes, we're also going to see the Ero Cherme. So we'll talk about the festivals then when the men Altarma makes an appearance as well.

[B]

Right. His dad, upon seeing him for the first time in two years, thinks, well, he's grown, but something's not right. His eyes looked far away. And Maneldo asks a really good question. I need to remember the way this was worded. What did you see on your trip that now lives most in memory?

[A]

What a way to ask that question. I think it really, hopefully prompts the hearer to really dig in and think, what really impacted me? What was my.

[B]

What am I taking away?

[A]

Yeah, my takeaways. And, you know, Aldarian answers his father's. Well, he doesn't really answer his father's question. He responds with a series of questions. But like the text says, sort of like he's talking to himself. You know, is this what I'm remembering most? Is it the elves? The coast, mountains, the mysterious distant lands? He's unsure. He doesn't really know how to answer the question. Question.

[B]

But it's none of those things is.

[A]

It's none. Smokescreen. Yep.

[B]

Yep. Manelda is wise and discerning, and he knows that Aldarion has not answered that question fully. No, but the narrator does. Aldarion has fallen in love with Sailing on the great sea. And that is a love that is never going to leave him.

[A]

Sa takes me away from where I'm going to.

[B]

You knew that was coming.

[A]

You knew it had to come. It had to come at some point.

[B]

At least it wasn't Rod Stewart. And sailing.

[A]

Oh, goodness, no. No, I'm.

[B]

Thank you. Thank you for that. I am so grateful.

[A]

I'm not gonna do Rod Stewart. I could barely do Christopher Cross. I'm not gonna do Rod Stewart. I do like, though how the text sort of describes his crush. And let's be honest, that's what it is. Of the great sea and of a ship riding there alone without sight of land, borne by the winds, with foam in its throat, to coasts and havens unguessed.

[B]

How did we slide into pirates right then?

[A]

Well, I mean, it's just this dramat.

[B]

Is that what it was?

[A]

And it's sort of got this sense of majesty and power and mystery and adventure and it's almost. And again, we don't know who wrote this. And I don't think Eldarion wrote the story because he sure would have made himself look a lot better, I think. So this part of the narration is telling us how Aldarion is viewing this. It is so florid and rich and the prose is just. How could anybody not love this?

[B]

Right, right. I mean, it's such beautiful description.

[A]

It is.

[B]

You could almost see it as a painting, couldn't you?

[A]

You could, yeah. I'm seeing this sort of very stormy water, you know, and all the. The sprays up in his face and almost as tall as the. The highest mast and. And the ship is just climbing and dipping and. Ah, it's amazing I'm on the side.

[B]

Of Arendus and his mother at this.

[A]

Point because I'm on the side of the ship throwing up. But, you know, thank you.

[B]

I'm good, thanks.

[A]

Yeah. Yeah. Where's my. Where's my Dramamine?

[B]

Oh, yeah, definitely. So when Aldarion had left two years ago, Minelda had given him the advice to not become enamored of the great lands. And you know, he didn't.

[A]

Yeah, fair enough. Yeah.

[B]

But instead he had become enamored of the great sea and of sailing. Please don't sing again. We're good.

[A]

I'm not gonna sing. No, we're good.

[B]

All right.

[A]

You got at least like a 10 minute buffer before I do it again. It's. It's got a long cooldown. Yeah.

[B]

It's no accident, though, that the phrase become enamored is used identically in both places.

[A]

Excellent catch. Do not become enamored of the great lands. And then he had become enamored of the great sea. And that's where we come back to the whole reason why Minel dur said that it was because this is the place that you have to be king and father of. Of this is the place you need to become enamored of. Because that's what Meneldur is. Right? It is said that he loves this island. He loves this place. He loves these people and you gotta be king. You've gotta love this place and you've gotta love these people.

[B]

And instead Aldarion is putting that love elsewhere, outside of Numenor. That's disastrous for a future king.

[A]

It absolutely is. He's going to be the king. If he were the second son, he could absolutely afford to be this. And it would be no problem whatsoever. However. But he has to be the king, and the king has to set aside these sorts of things in the interest of ruling and leading his people. And he's not going to be ready to do that, as we'll see.

[B]

Right. And I do think it's significant that Tolkien uses a word like enamored, because for me, I mean, I'm not as level of word nerdery as you are, but for me it's. It actually feels stronger than just that. He has had loved the great sea that become enamored of. I think it's just such a greater depth to that.

[A]

It's a greater depth and it also suggests almost a little bit of passivity. If he loved the sea, it's him doing the loving. He has become enamored. The sea has done this to him.

[B]

I love that. Yeah.

[A]

And there's this sense of almost evading responsibility for it. Like, it's not my fault I've become enamored. You know, the sea has. Has made. It's the sea made me do it instead of the devil made me do it.

[B]

Is that when you would describe the sea as your mistress, then?

[A]

Yeah, very much so. I mean, as we'll see, the sea is very much Eldarion's mistress. Yeah. Yeah. But he's not done yet, is he?

[B]

No, no. And let's hear a little bit more about this. Over to you.

[A]

Alan Veentur did not again voyage from Numenor, but the Numeramar he gave in gift to Eldad. Within three years, Aldarian begged leave to go again and he set sail for Lindon. He was three years abroad, and not long after, another voyage he made that lasted for four years. For it is said that he was no longer content to sail to Mithlon, but began to explore the coasts southwards, past the mouths of Baranduin and Gwathlo and Angren. And he rounded the dark cape of Ros Morthin and beheld the great bay of Belfalas and the mountains of the country of Amroth, where the Nandor elves still dwell. In the 39th year of his age, Aldarion returned to Numenor Bringing gifts from Gil Galad to his father. For in the following year, as he had long proclaimed, Tar Lendil relinquished the scepter to his son, and Tar Meneldur became the king. Then Aldarion restrained his desire and remained at home for a while for the comfort of his father. Father. And in those days he put to use the knowledge he had gained of Cirdan concerning the making of ships, devising much anew of his own thought. And he began also to set men to the improvement of the havens and the keys, for he was ever eager to build greater vessels. But the sea longing came upon him anew, and he departed again and yet again from Numenor. And his mind turned now to ventures that might not be compassed to within one vessel's company. Therefore he formed the guild of Venturers that afterwards was renowned. To that brotherhood were joined all the hardiest and most eager mariners. And young men sought admission to it, even from the inland regions of Numenor and Aldarien they called the great Captain. At that time, he, having no mind to live upon land in Armenelas, had a ship built that should serve as his dwelling place. Place he named it, therefore, Eombar. And at times he would sail in it from Haven to Haven of Numenor. But for the most part it lay at anchor off Tol Uannen. And that was a little isle in the bay of Romenda that was set there by Ooinen, the Lady of the Seas. Upon ear was the guild house of the venturers, and there were kept the records of their great voyages. For Tar Meneldur looked coldly on the enterprises of his son. Son. And cared not to hear the tale of his journeys, Believing that he sowed the seeds of restlessness and the desire of other lands to hold.

[B]

Ooh. Oh, that's not good.

[A]

Oh, that is foreboding in a huge way. The desire of other lands to hold. Oh, man. Wow.

[B]

Which is exactly the opposite of what Tarman Elder wanted him to do. Okay, right. So let's get back to the beginning of that, because sure enough, just like he said over two years ago, this was Vienter's last journey. So he was born in 451 of the second age. So he was 286 years old when they came back from this trip.

[A]

Oh, man.

[B]

I mean, I think he's earned his retirement.

[A]

Yeah, I think so.

[B]

Yeah. Now, we don't have anything that says when he died, but if he was the line of Elros, he probably had another century or so to go.

[A]

Yeah, yeah. And if not, he was getting pretty close because 300 is about the, the, the lifespan for non el Russians. I couldn't think of a word.

[B]

And if that isn't a word, it should be.

[A]

Yeah, it should be.

[B]

Yeah. He probably just fancied, you know, spending that last century in a cabana on the beach.

[A]

Exactly. Yeah. I just want to take it easy. I mean, you know, two or three year long time on a ship is not a luxurious venture, I'm sure.

[B]

No.

[A]

So he gives his ship West Wings. No relation to the TV show, to Aldarian. And, and I mean, the thing is, I'd say he sails off into the sunset, but he clearly can't do that now because he doesn't have a ship. But he does leave the story as that is the last that this tale tells of. Aantor.

[B]

Well, he's done his bit now, hasn't he?

[A]

Yeah, he really has. He's played his part. Yeah. For good or for ill?

[B]

For good or for ill, yeah. Now being enamored of the sea, as we were discussing a few minutes ago, and of sailing on it, well, now he has his own ship. So Aldarion's kind of eager to get back out there.

[A]

He is. Yeah.

[B]

To his minimal credit, he waits three whole years and then he asks, begs to go again and then he's gone for three years and then he leaves for another four year journey after that.

[A]

Yeah. Now the timeline for this, in case you're not following, and it is a little tricky, some of it's given at the end of the section and the first journey was from 725 to 727, then another one from 7:30 to 7:33 and then another one from 735 to 739. So between the time he was 25 and the time he was 39, that's a 14 year span. He was gone for nine years and home for five years.

[B]

Thank you for doing the maths. You know, I don't do the maths.

[A]

I have one job on this show. It's a dumb job, but somebody's got to do it.

[B]

Especially when your co host is just not into numbers. So we get some detail here on the third of these early voyages. Because he doesn't just head to the Grey Havens and have a chat with his old buddies Cirdan and Gil Galad. No, he goes south past where the Brandywine Grey Flood and even the Isen flow into the sea and then further than that around the Cape of Andrast. And into the Bay of Belfalus.

[A]

That's a long way. The footnote here does give us a little bit more explanation. First, that Sir Angren was the Sindarin name for the river as Horizon. Also Ras Morithhil, a name not otherwise found, must be the great headland at the end of the northern arm of the Bay of Belfalas, which was also called Andrast Long Cape.

[B]

Now, more interestingly, though, it's this bit about the country of Amroth where the Nandor El still dwell. As Christopher points out in the footnote, this means that this story was written down in Gondor before the departure of the last ship from the haven of the Silvan Elves near Dol Amroth in the year 1981 of the third age.

[A]

And that's really all we have. It's not much, but it's all we've got. Sometime before third age 1981. So sometime late second age, or in the first two millennia of the third age. That's a pretty broad window. Written in Gondor. It could have been right after the Fall. It could have been around third age 1000. Or it could have been just in third age 1980. So. So Aldarian comes back. He's 39 years old again. It's second age 739. It's very easy that he was born in second age 700. Makes the master.

[B]

That really help me. That really helps.

[A]

And he brings gifts from one king to another. Right. From Gil Galad to Meneldur.

[B]

Yeah. All of this communication, if you like, between the Elves and Numenoreans. This is so important. It's so significant. Now, in a move that had been announced previously, Tar Elendil follows tradition and he surrenders the scepter to Tar Meneldur. And Aeldarion knows he'll be better off if he stays put for a while. I mean, he's already annoyed Daddy enough, I think.

[A]

Been gone for 14 out of the last 14 years. He's been gone for nine of them. Yeah.

[B]

Yeah. That's really pushing your luck, I think.

[A]

I think.

[B]

But he still gets to work on his plans. He's building ships and he's improving the infrastructure. You know, the harbors and the docks.

[A]

That's right. And, you know, I say, I want to point this out. There are going to be times, a lot of them, where we're very hard on Eldarion. And it already sounds like we've been pretty hard on him so far. But there are also some amazing things he's done Right. Building the harbors, getting the infrastructure up to speed. We'll see that he does later on begin this sort of forestation, you know, project where he, you know, replants. Eventually he abandons that. But there is a time where he actually does really do the right thing and work hard and in trying to. But there's always those little nagging red flags. So we don't want to. This isn't the anti Aldarian show. The only reason you might think that is because we haven't met horrendous yet.

[B]

Yeah, yeah. Then it's gonna go.

[A]

It's gon to go both ways, folks. I promise you that. So if you're sitting here thinking this is like some sort of, I don't know, bashing. Aarion bashing, trust me, it will become a Rendus bashing soon enough. But Aldarian right now, you know, he does do some good things. And Orendus does some good things. This is the thing. This is the most human story that Tolkien writes in his whole legendarium. These are fully three dimensional characters with so much good and so much like. You just want to throttle them.

[B]

Right. I mean, you can't actually. Or I can't actually. Anyway, I could. Mustn't speak for everybody. Well, I can't point my finger at one or the other and say you are the one to blame because there's so many things that are both right and wrong about both of them.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

It's just that when they come together, it's an absolute mess.

[A]

Yeah. I mean, it really is hard to pin the blame. You can't. It's difficult. I shouldn't say nobody can. Because there's going to be people who will.

[B]

Oh, yeah, absolutely. And we'll probably return to this right at the end, won't we? And talk about that and try and weigh up.

[A]

There's plenty of time where it's one, plenty of times where it's the other, plenty of times where it's both and a few times where it's really neither.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And you're just like circumstantial and like, oh, this is just too bad that it happened this way. But yeah, anyway, we'll get to all that. I just wanted to make sure. Because we have been kind of hard on Eldari and pointing out his red flags, which is perfectly fair because here's another of those red flags. After he's improving the infrastructure and he's, you know, home for three years, we're told the sea longing came upon him anew. New and it's sort of like we talked about earlier with the become enamored. This is an interesting way to make him the passive victim of a thing rather than the active participant. But it also is genuinely reflective of the truth. I mean, you think the elves. It happens to the elves that way. It just boom. They hear the sea, they hear the gulls, and whack. Now they're magically sucked into this love of the sea.

[B]

But those two things are not the same, are they? I mean, the sea longing for the elves is the call of Valinor Northwest. Yeah, right. And I mean, that's the Valar and their call and all of that. So it's not quite the same. And honestly, when I read about Aldarion becoming enamored and the sea longing came upon him anew, that just sounds like an excuse to me.

[A]

It does. It does a little bit.

[B]

It wasn't my fault, dad.

[A]

It was.

[B]

Honestly. It does. It really does. I mean, own it, Aldarion. You love the sea. You want to be out on the sea. So just own the fact that that's what you're feeling rather than say, oh, the sea longing has come upon me.

[A]

There's a little bit of me that wants to give him a touch of credit for it. Because if you think back to. I'm trying to remember if it's Ainolindele or Valaquinta, I think it's Ainalindele. It is said by the Eldar that in water there lives yet the echo of the music of the Ainol more than in any substance else that is in this earth. And many of the children of Iluvatar, which of course would include the men hearken still unsated to the voices of the sea, and yet know not for what they listen. So there is. I mean, I think of Tuor and the way he, you know, became enamored of the sea in a way when he. When Ulmo shows up.

[B]

Yeah, that's true. But then, you know, he turns his back on the sea and he does what he needs to do, which is go to Gondolin, which checks notes, is not surrounded by the sea.

[A]

That is correct. It's pretty much as far from the sea as you can get in Beleriandale.

[B]

Indeed.

[A]

Yeah. That is fair. Yeah. So the sea longing came upon him anew. Yep, definitely. So I'm out.

[B]

And the text here just says, he departed again. And yet again. I mean, we don't get more specifics, but the only thing that's clear is that these journeys took place between second age 750, when he founded the guild. Per the notes at the end of the story. And before. Before second age 800, which we'll see next episode is when his father commanded him to remain in Numenor. Like enough, son. It's been 50 years, and at this.

[A]

Point he's a full grown man. Remember, he's born in second age 700. So he founds the Guild. He's already 50. So sometime between his 50th and his hundredth birthday is when he's making these two more journeys. So we're up to what, five or six journeys at this point. Speaking of the Guild, one ship clearly isn't enough for Eldarion. He forms forms this Guild of Venturers, which I love the name. It sounds like a group of people sitting around the table playing D and D. I would absolutely join that group. We're forming the Guild Adventurers. I'm in. But you know, now he's got an armada, right? A full fleet of ships to sail with. And not surprisingly, like attracts like. So the guild brings people like Aldaria and the hardiest and most eager mariners. These are all guys who want to get away from Numenor for one reason or another. Another. They all look up to Aldarian, you know. Oh, Captain, my Captain.

[B]

Oh, Captain, my captain.

[A]

The great captain. Yes. Oh, man. Yeah.

[B]

And he. He hates being on the land so much. He even builds himself a houseboat.

[A]

I love that.

[B]

I mean, land has nothing for this dude.

[A]

No, nothing at all.

[B]

So he calls this houseboat Aambar. And there's a bit more word nerdery for you because that means sea dwelling. And that's made up of ar meaning sea, as in in earendil, seafriend and mbar meaning home.

[A]

Yeah, and boy, do we see that a lot, because that Embar thing is everywhere. Now he keeps it at anchor near Tol Oinen. And I do love that they have an island named after Uinen. I mean, maybe because she put it there, maybe she named it. But still, for those who don't know, Ooinen is a Maya. She is the wife of another Maya by the name of Os. They are both under Ulmo's authority. Well, in theory. In theory, yeah. They're pretty uncontrollable. Especially Ase. And the footnote to this particular bit actually tells us the Numerorians lived long in Uinen's protection and held her in reverence, equal to the valar. And again, a lot of that's because she restrains. I'll say's wildness.

[B]

Not only did he live on this boat, he also worked there too. The Guild HQ was on Arp Umbar. And there's an interesting bit in the footnote about these records kept there at some point, maybe under Tarmen Eldr, maybe not. This Guildhouse was, according to Christopher, confiscated by the kings and removed to the Western Haven of Anduniee. All its records perished, that is, in the downfall, including all the accurate charts of Numenor. But it is not said when this confiscation of Eambar took place.

[A]

There you go. But now we get a brief glimpse of where things are headed with Eldarion and his father, Tar Meneldor. The dad looked coldly on his dad's actions. No longer wanted to hear about his trips. And I just feel like that's a sad commentary when you compare it to that earlier moment that we took a second to talk about. What did you see, Anya, in your far journeys that now lives most in memory?

[B]

Oh, dear.

[A]

I think asking that question now would just break minel de risk heart, you know?

[B]

Yes.

[A]

Yeah, he doesn't want to hear it. Not because he doesn't care about his son, but because he cares about his people and his. His kingdom. And that's what his job is to do.

[B]

Right? Yeah. And you can see the rift is really growing between the two of them.

[A]

It really is.

[B]

And we see this become an estrangement in the very first line of next week's reading.

[A]

Indeed we do. Barloman looked coldly on the enterprises of Bob and Nob and cared not to hear the tale of their side hustles, believing they sowed the seeds of restlessness and the desire of other inns to work for.

[B]

Okay, that's enough of that.

[A]

That is enough. Sara, what has Barlaban brought for us today?

[B]

Okay, so we have a question from Nick in the uk, who writes in. You've said on the podcast before, and I've read in the letters that Tolkien wanted to publish the Lord of the Rings and the Silmarillion at the same time together. My question for you is, do you think this would have been better? How would readers have benefited? What would we have missed out on? Would you have preferred it? And would we still have History of Middle Earth or unfinished Tales to a lesser capacity or at all?

[A]

That is a good question, Nick. And that's the thing. We have talked about Tolkien's desire to do that. And it's so evident in letter 131 to Milton Waldman and also in multiple letters that he wrote to Rainer Unwin, like, no, no, no, really, we need to publish the Silmarillion if we're going to publish Lord of the Rings. He's like, well, our reader suggests otherwise. What did he call it? A little too Celtic, I think, which.

[B]

Really irritated skin in a big way.

[A]

Like, how dare he say that? It's a lot of things, but it ain't that.

[B]

It ain't Celtic. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean, you need to look at the premise of the question here, because the problem is the Silmarillion as we have it now.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

I don't think that would have helped.

[A]

No.

[B]

But if he had actually managed to fully finish the Silmarillion in the way that he wanted to and then the books came out together, maybe.

[A]

But would he have never been able to? I mean, that's the thing. He worked on it for 20 years. And I think the reason he didn't is arguably because he couldn't, not the way he wanted to finish it. I mean, even Christopher had to say, I have regrets about the way. Way I put this together, but at least it's out there. I. I don't know that Tolkien would have ever. Mostly because, and we've talked about this before, there are questions that he was wrestling with that he just could never find a satisfactory answer.

[B]

Right.

[A]

He'd already laid out this idea that the orcs were, in origin, twisted elves. But then he came to this conclusion, like, it can't be that. Because then I got to deal with this question of serial longevity into their. And the halls of Mandos and elf spirits and okay, so maybe they're men, but now I've got to deal with, can we have irredeemable creatures in a world that I want to fit into my theological framework? I mean, we've talked before about how he doesn't pitch us that theological framework all the time, but he himself wanted the world to be consistent with somebody who believed in the Holy Trinity. As he said in one of his letters, like, that's right for him. He needed his world to be not incompatible with his own beliefs. Fair. Okay. You want your world to be that way. Well, guess what? You've got a problem with the origin of orcs, and you're never going to solve that. And you're also, in the meantime, still also trying to figure out the whole moon and sun thing, which.

[B]

Oh, and whether the Earth just last.

[A]

Week at the Questions After Nightfall.

[B]

Yeah, indeed. There's so many things that he couldn't do. So I really. You're right. I think part of the answer is, is that this was just never going to happen anyway.

[A]

That's the thing. Not under Tolkien's own watch, because he's so exacting and wanted it to be completely right.

[B]

Yeah. And frankly, like I said, if it was the Silmarillion as we have it published, I don't think actually it would have helped because if anybody started on the Silmarillion, I think it would actually have put a lot of people off from even beginning the Lord of the Rings.

[A]

Think about how many people have read the Lord of the Rings who then bounce off the Silmarillion. And it's one of the whole reasons we start. Started this podcast with the Silmarillion was because we knew there were so many people who'd watched the Jackson films, read the books as a result, and then were like, I'm going to read the Silmarillion. No, I'm not going to read the Silmarillion. And I get it, I get it. But wow. Yeah. Do I think it would have been better maybe for a very small number of us.

[B]

I think it would have been worse for the Vast in general.

[A]

It would have been worse, yeah. Because I think it would have done harm to the potential sales of the book.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

And I think then that would lead to no way a publisher wants to take the risk on Unfinished Tales or History of Middle Earth.

[B]

But also I think it might have affected the entirety of the legacy in that if it affects the sale of the book, then we don't actually have that huge circle of people who become enamored of Middle Earth. Do you like what I did there?

[A]

I do.

[B]

But it's true, isn't it?

[A]

You know, it is.

[B]

It becomes a slightly cultish following in America.

[A]

It does. As Tolkien himself laments in his letters, you know, the deplorable cultists, but who called him at 3am because they had no concept of time zones.

[B]

But the whole point is that the Lord of the Rings has actually been the reason why there are so many millions of people who are enamored of Tolkien's world.

[A]

And it's why fantasy as a genre has succeeded in so many ways. Heck, it's why Dungeons and Dragons exist.

[B]

Right. So it could have actually damaged all of that.

[A]

Yeah, it really could have. I feel like, in a way, the way it came out without that was better for the Legendarium as a whole. Even if. If I, as a reader would have loved, especially if I was a reader in 1956, if I'm. I've long used this example, if I'M a young man in 1956. And no, I was not born in. I'm not that old. Not that old. And kudos to those of you who are, by the way. I just know that people give me grief. So if I was a first generation reader, I get to that moment of thinking Theoden charging on the Pelennor fields, and he's said to be like Orome in his wrath at the War of the Valar when the world was young. Can you imagine being able to then read about that moment and about Orome and about the wrath of the Val. I would have loved that in 1956. To think that you'd have to wait 21 years to learn who Orme is and to learn about that war. That would stink. That would be awful to have to wait 21 years. Years. But that's. I think, as a whole, the vast majority of readers would have been so thrown off by the presence of the Silmarillion material and its relation to the Lord of the Rings.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Unless Tolkien was able to tie it together really neatly. But then again, we get into the question of how does he do that? And does he do that well enough to his satisfaction? Well, he had 25 years and he couldn't get it done.

[B]

He didn't do it.

[A]

Yeah. And it took Christopher, you know, another four years to do it. And even then, he. He was not entirely satisfied with his efforts. Had to write 12 volumes of the history of Middle Earth as penance for not getting the Silmarillion. Right.

[B]

Well, that's it. So, I mean, my tldr answer to Nick is, oh, no, no. Terrible idea.

[A]

Actually, I think you're right.

[B]

I'm okay with the way things went on. I know that Tolkien was incredibly, personally disappointed that he never got Silmarillion published, but speaking from my perfectly selfish point of view, I'm okay with it.

[A]

Yeah. I don't think we get the rest of everything. I think at that point it becomes almost a failed author, you know, because it doesn't succeed. Pop, culturally doesn't become the massive hit that it is, which then leads the publishers to say no to future projects.

[B]

And that leads to hate and hate leads to the dark side and.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Yeah. I mean, can you imagine? That's the parallel world world to us where that happened.

[A]

Oh, my goodness. Where there's no tales.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And there's no history of Middle Earth.

[B]

No. And probably no fantasy genre because.

[A]

Or certainly a much weakened fantasy genre. Yeah.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

No, Somebody else takes the lead there. Yeah.

[B]

Oh, boy.

[A]

No, I don't want to think about that world. All right.

[B]

No, I'm okay with what we have.

[A]

We're good. We're good, folks. Thank you for joining us for another episode of the Prancing Pony Podcast. Please come back next week when we finally meet Arenda.

[B]

Right, but please just don't leave her alone for 15 years or anything, because she really doesn't react well to that.

[A]

You might not do that right away.

[B]

Now, Alan and I want to thank the members of Team PPP editor Jordan Rannells Barleyman, Becca Davis, social media manager Casey Hilsey Event and Patreon community coordinator Katie McKenna, graphic artist Megan Collins, and website guru Phil Dean.

[A]

And please take a minute to check out the prancing pony podcast.com that's where you're going to find show notes, outtakes, and old Prancing Pony ponderings. Back when I used to have time to write those things. We are changing vendors for our merch at the moment, but our online storefront should be back soon. You can get all sorts of cool PPP merch, including the incredible chapter art that Megan's been doing for the show for three seasons now.

[B]

Indeed. And we're all about the books here at the Prancing Pony Podcast, so. So be sure to also visit our library page. And we try to make sure that any book we've mentioned on the show is linked there for you to purchase. And we do get a small amount of compensation when you make your purchase, so thank you for that.

[A]

Indeed. We also want to thank our patrons at the Kirdan's contribution tier. I'll start with Demay in Alaska, Chad in Texas, Lance in New Jersey, Joseph in Michigan, Kathy from North Carolina, Brian in the uk, Jerry from Washington, Irving Irwin from the Netherlands, Ben in Minnesota, Anthony in Texas, Zaksu in Illinois, Joshua in Massachusetts, Lucy in Texas, Erica in Texas, Vivian in California, and James in Massachusetts.

[B]

And there's also Ann in Kentucky, Sean in New Jersey, Mason in California, Maureen from Massachusetts, Olivia in London, Robert in Arizona, Nick in Wisconsin, Lewis in South Carolina, Thomas in J. Germany, Craig in California, Kevin in Massachusetts, Bruce in California, Joe in Maryland, Scott in California, Jeffrey in Michigan, and Paul in Colorado. Thank you all so very much for your support.

[A]

Indeed. Thank you.

[B]

Now, make sure you don't miss any episodes of the Prancing Pony Podcast. Subscribe now through Spotify, Apple Podcasts, Amazon Music, or your favorite podcast app.

[A]

And one last thing. As always, don't forget to send your thoughts, comments, and most of all, your application for membership in the Guild. Adventurers to barlamon@the prancingponypodcast.com Now Barliman does.

[B]

Have a lot of mail to sort through, though, so we'll try to get to you just as soon as we're able.

[A]

As always, this has been far too short a time to spend among such excellent and admirable listeners.

[B]

But until next time, however, farewell folks.

[A]

Sam.