385 – I Saw Her Standing There (in Rómenna)

Summary

The Prancing Pony Podcast

Episode 385 – I Saw Her Standing There (in Rómenna)

Date: October 12, 2025
Hosts: Alan Sisto & Sara Brown
Special Guest: Andrew Koons (documentary filmmaker, "The Muster at Marquette")

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Overview

In this episode, Alan and Sara are joined by filmmaker Andrew Koons to discuss his new documentary The Muster at Marquette, which chronicles Dr. Bill Fliss's Tolkien Fandom Oral History Collection at Marquette University. After this rich interview, Alan and Sara continue their deep-dive read-through of "Aldarion and Erendis" from Unfinished Tales, focusing on the developing estrangement between Aldarion and his father, Meneldur, Aldarion’s growing bond with Erendis, the strains of duty versus personal desire, and how these personal dramas foreshadow the greater tragedy of Númenor. The hosts bring their trademark insight, banter, and pop-culture puns to bear on the legendarium’s most granular royal soap opera.

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Segment Breakdown and Key Discussion Points

[04:06] – Interview: Andrew Koons and the Muster at Marquette

• Background & Inspiration:

  • Andrew shares how his love for Tolkien and early exposure to Peter Jackson's LOTR films led to his fascination with behind-the-scenes documentaries and, ultimately, a career in filmmaking.
    • “I was gone from the minute I started reading those books and so soon after the films came out. …I got the extended edition DVD box set and just watched all…behind the scenes content. And that’s really what inspired me to decide that filmmaking…was a career that I wanted to go into.” — Andrew Koons ([05:00])
  • It was his wife who introduced him to Tolkien manuscript exhibitions at Marquette, where he discovered Dr. Bill Fliss’s Fandom Oral History Project.
  • Andrew scheduled his own oral history recording and proposed the documentary — a "real big swing" that led to close collaboration with Dr. Fliss.

• Fandom as Community:

  • Andrew reflects on how fandom offers a vital “third space” for community in an isolating era.
    • “How is fandom helping to fill the gap of those third spaces that are disappearing for a lot [of people]? …That could be interesting.” — Andrew Koons ([09:18])
  • He discusses the importance of updating fandom documentaries (like “Ringers: Lord of the Fans,” 2005) to reflect how things have changed over the past 20 years.

• About The Muster at Marquette:

  • Documentary is available free and permanently at YouTube.com/villagepicturesco
  • Andrew hopes viewers are inspired to contribute their own oral history recordings, emphasizing the significance of preserving fan voices for future generations.
    • “There's a powerful moment in the film where Bill talks about people who have passed on, who now have their voices and their thoughts on Tolkien preserved. That's a really powerful thing.” — Andrew Koons ([11:42])
  • Alan and Sara discuss the historical value of the project, including the emotional power of capturing ordinary fans’ voices.

• Notable Quotes:

  • “Their voices are just as important as Tom Shippey’s and Verlyn Flieger’s and Corey Olsen’s. …And I’m so excited that that exists for the sake of history.” — Alan Sisto ([14:31])

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[17:05] – Return to "Aldarion and Erendis" (Text Discussion)

Setting & Main Characters

• Context:
  • Númenor is in its early centuries; Aldarion, prince and Guild of Venturers captain, is increasingly estranged from his father, King Meneldur.
  • Aldarion’s mother, Queen Almarian, continues to support her headstrong son.

The Escalating Father-Son Rift

• Aldarion ceases confiding in his father, focusing instead on shipbuilding and maritime exploration, leading to personal and political estrangement.
  • “Tar Meneldur ever opposed his son, and he set a curb on the felling of trees in Númenor… It came therefore into Aldarion’s mind that he would find timber in Middle-earth…” ([17:50])
• Meneldur’s attempts at restraint (“perforce let matters go”) are characterized as ineffectual.
• Queen Almarian’s unchecked support further complicates the royal dynamic.

Analysis of Estrangement

• Both hosts see a pattern of poor boundary-setting and ineffective leadership from Meneldur.
  • “He puts small obstacles in the way of Aldarion, and all this teaches Aldarion is how to circumvent these small obstacles.” — Sara Brown ([20:43])
• The growing popularity of the Guild makes Aldarion hard to restrain: “They’re like the rock stars of Númenor, aren’t they?” — Sara ([21:49])

Technology, Progress, and Pride

• Aldarion innovates with bigger ships, spurring both technological advancement and resource depletion fears.
  • “He is pushing forward the boundaries of their technology. …He’s working at doing good for Númenor in many ways.” — Alan Sisto ([24:50])
• Meneldur’s environmental restrictions, intended to check his son, push Aldarion to source timber in Middle-earth.
  • The building of Vinyalondë (“New Haven”) at the mouth of the Gwathló sets the stage for later Númenórean colonization and eventual conflict ([27:44]).

[32:29] — The Naming of the King’s Heir and the Arrival of Erendis

• Upon Aldarion’s 100th birthday (~Second Age 800), he is reconciled with Meneldur as he’s proclaimed heir; receives the title "Lord of the Ships and Havens."
• At the celebration Beregar and his daughter Erendis, of the ancient House of Bëor, attend.
  • Erendis: “dark haired and of slender grace, with the clear grey eyes of her kin.” ([38:26])
  • Noted ancestry: descendant of Morwen (mother of Túrin) and Rían (mother of Tuor).

The First Glance

• Erendis is smitten immediately; “for his beauty and splendour of bearing, she had eyes for little else.” ([44:41])
• Aldarion is largely oblivious, focused on the sea, not romance — leading to a discussion of new scholarship suggesting Aldarion’s apparent asexuality/asociality ([47:13]).

Age Gap and Númenórean Aging

• Age differences seem large (Aldarion is 100+, Erendis ~30s), but Númenórean extended youth makes the emotional gap less concerning.

Erendis Dedicates Herself (Without Hope)

• After a fleeting and ambiguous interaction, Erendis’s “heart is turned wholly to Aldarion, though not in hope.” — tragic foreshadowing.
  • She dismisses all other suitors, beginning a pattern of self-denial.

[58:14] — The Disastrous Pattern Deepens

• Each time marriage is urged, Aldarion responds with increasing resistance and retreat to his ships and Guild.
• Meneldur, seeing his gifts (ore, a diamond) and open disinterest in women/family, criticizes his son’s pride and warns against neglecting the famously fickle favor of the Valar.
  • “Our ships are guarded, and other hands guide them than ours… Be not overproud, or the grace may wane.” — Meneldur ([70:00])
• Sara observes: “It is about showing restraint too. In other words, don’t assume that the same protection is going to apply if you do dumb things.” ([71:29])
• The episode repeatedly foreshadows Númenor’s eventual overreach and downfall.
  • “What is the point of our longer lives if we can’t also be like the Elves? What is the point of living here if we can’t go over there? …This is not accepting your place, the limitations that you have on you.” — Alan Sisto ([72:37])

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[80:27] — Ceremony, Custom, and Breaking of Traditions

The Bow of Return

• Custom: Women of the captain’s kin set the green bough from the elven tree Oiolairë on the ship’s prow before departure — a tradition symbolizing blessing and Valar favor.
• When Meneldur withholds the blessing and decrees no bough (to signal royal disapproval), Arendis volunteers:
  • “If you will cut the bough from the elven tree, I will bear it to the haven by your leave, for the King has not forbidden it to me.”
• Aldarion is surprised and touched — for the first time, “looked on Erendis with love.”
  • “For the first time, we’re told Aeldarion looked on Arendys with love. Now, talk about a bit of a slow burn. It took him a little while, while. It’s only been 16 years since they met. Yes. This is what we call a slow burn.” — Sara ([92:41])
• Powerful symbolism as Aldarion looks back at Númenor while sailing away — the first crack in his single-minded obsession.

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[94:00] — Cold Hearts, Defiance, and Open Rebellion

• Aldarion returns early, bestows gifts (a diamond to Erendis). Meneldur rebukes him for “stringing her along.”
• Father-son relationship fully breaks down: Aldarion openly rebels, leaving with a fleet “in defiance of the king.”
  • Notable: Majority of the Guild follows Aldarion, further destabilizing royal authority.
• Arendis (possibly in secret, or via a surrogate) again provides the green bough — custom persists even as relationships fracture (“this comes from the lady of the Westlands, for so they called Arendis and went away in the dark”).

Moral & Psychological Analysis

• Hosts track Aldarion’s deep deficiencies as a leader: self-absorbed, intolerant of opposition, hungry for adulation, unprepared for kingship.
• Meneldur’s failures mirror those of his son: lack of decisiveness, conflict-avoidance, and ignoring the necessity of clear boundaries.
• Both foreshadow future Númenórean troubles: technological advancement mixed with pride, failure to accept limits, disregard of tradition and duty.
  • “His duty is always higher and never gets less. Her [Erendis’] starts out lower but then has to increase much more dramatically when Ancalimë is born.” — Alan Sisto ([114:43])

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Notable Quotes and Moments

• “Cold hearts may not kindle others to give them warmth at their goings and comings.” — Meneldur rebuking Aldarion ([100:30])
• “Life on land was irksome to him, for aboard his ship he was subject to no other will. And the Venturers who accompanied him knew only love and admiration for the great captain.” — on Aldarion’s avoidance of real relationships and duty ([105:21])
• "I love this line in particular. 'Our ships are guarded and other hands guide them than ours.' This isn’t just some sort of passive shield. This is an active protection."
• “I think we’re coming close to an answer to your question about why this story. …There’s so much foreshadowing here for all the things that will eventually bring Númenor down. …Here…I think we really do have the beginnings of the downfall of Númenor. They are…the little seeds of that are right here.” — Sara ([73:22])
• “He wants full autonomy with zero authority or responsibility, and only hero worship from beneath. That’s what he wants.” — Alan ([105:57])
• “We rightly bash Aldarion now…now it’s going to be a while before we bash Erendis. …Her choices are only gonna hurt herself [for now].” — ([115:40])

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Timestamps for Important Segments

• [04:06] — Intro and interview with Andrew Koons
• [11:11] — Where to see THE MUSTER AT MARQUETTE and its purpose
• [17:05] — Start of "Aldarion and Erendis" chapter discussion
• [38:26] — Introduction of Erendis and her family
• [47:13] — Analysis of Aldarion’s sexual/aromantic disposition
• [58:14] — Aldarion retreats further, duty vs. desire tension mounts
• [80:27] — The Bow of Return, ceremony and symbolism in Númenor
• [92:41] — Aldarion’s “slow burn” realization of love for Erendis
• [94:00] — Open defiance of the king, the breaking of family and custom
• [111:15] — Mailbag question: “To what extent should personal fulfillment be sacrificed for duty to family, kingdom, or greater good?”
• [114:00+] — Final reflections: Themes of choice, duty, and foreshadowing Númenor’s fate

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Tone and Language

The episode is smart but accessible, peppered with Tolkien-lore deep cuts, snark, self-deprecating banter, and “pub chat” informality. The hosts reference everything from K-pop to Hitchhikers Guide, punctuating heady analysis with pop-culture humor and affectionate digs at each other.

E.g.
Sara: “Can you imagine his dating profile? Oh dear.” ([57:20])
Alan: “But he’s ready to mirth. I still want somebody to put that in their dating profile… Tell me how that works out for you.” ([57:24])

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Summary: For Listeners Who Missed the Episode

This episode — part documentary interview, part in-depth Tolkien study, and part bantering book club — explores how fandom preserves the history and heart that make Middle-earth meaningful. The central discussion digs into the tragic flaws of Aldarion, his consist refusal of responsibility, and the emotional toll on those who (misguidedly) love him. Meneldur’s parental and royal dilemma echoes down the centuries as a seed of Númenor’s doom, reflected (with some pop-cultural winks) in all too relatable family drama.

Memorable moments include:

• Andrew Koons on Tolkien fandom as enduring community.
• The gradual collapse of tradition and duty in Númenor through small and large acts of selfishness.
• The “slow burn” tragedy of Erendis, letting her life be defined by a fleeting moment and an unworthy prince.
• Host Sara’s insightful parallel between Erendis’ House of Bëor—serious, grave, “moved sooner to pity than to laughter”—and Morwen, mother of Túrin (with all the warning that implies).

Whether you’re seeking Tolkien analysis, gentle humor, or fan community inspiration, this episode weaves them all together, shining a (Quenya-)bright light on the ways Middle-earth’s lore mirrors our own struggles with pride, love, and duty.

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For Further Engagement

• Watch The Muster at Marquette on YouTube [villagepicturesco]
• Learn about (or contribute your voice to) the Tolkien Fandom Oral History Collection at Marquette University

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Next week: The rift between father and son becomes open rebellion—both in Númenor and “just between the two of us,” as Sara quips. The tale continues!

Transcript

[Alan Sisto]

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[Sara Brown]

False.

[Alan Sisto]

That's gotta be true again. Carvana will pick up your car from your door, or you can drop it off at one of their car vending machines.

[Sara Brown]

Sounds too good to be true. So true.

[Alan Sisto]

Finally caught on. Nice job. Honesty isn't just their policy, it's their entire model. Sell your car today too, Carvana. Pickup fees may apply. Good evening, little masters, and welcome to episode 385 of the Prancing Pony podcast, where, well, the podcast has grown in numbers and in the esteem of men.

[Sara Brown]

Is that gonna make you the less easy to rebuke or restrain?

[Alan Sisto]

Have I ever been easy to rebuke or restrain?

[Sara Brown]

Alas, no. Okay, folks, pull up a bench in the common room and join us. I'm Sara Brown, the shield maiden of Rohan, and I'm here with the man of the west who does not need to be commanded to cease his voyaging, Alan Sisto.

[Alan Sisto]

No way. I don't. I'd be one of the ventures who stays behind in Numenor, like handling PR or something. You know, in house counsel, maybe. Folks, join us as we meet Arrendis, who, it turns out, only has eyes for Eldarion.

[Sara Brown]

Yeah, that's not going to last. But anyway, no matter whether you came to Middle Earth through the books, the films, the TV show, or something else, each of you is welcome here in our common room. The Prancing Pony Podcast continues in our 10th season of Reading and talking our way through Middle Earth with conversations, digressions, and even speculations.

[Alan Sisto]

That's right. Not to mention a few puns and bad jokes every once in a while.

[Sara Brown]

Especially from you.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah, well, maybe. Our purpose, though, our goal really is to dive deep into the lore, to discuss the story, our favorite characters and themes, Tolkien's inspirations, and a whole lot more.

[Sara Brown]

And while we take the work seriously, the same really can't be said about ourselves. We're just a couple of friends chatting at the pub. And we're glad you've joined us.

[Alan Sisto]

And I'm sure you'll be glad you joined as well. But before we get to tonight's chapter discussion, we're sitting down for a chat that we think you're going to really enjoy. Going all the way Back to episode 31 in the first season of the PPP, we have had the privilege of following Dr. Bill Fliss, the archivist at Marquette University, and his inspiring project, the Tolkien Fandom Oral History Collection. Now, he's been a guest on the show a few times. He's not here today, folks. That's not who we're talking to. We have even had our 22ppp moot at Marquette, not just to the incredible exhibition of Tolkien's manuscripts, but to encourage more of our folks to take part in the Tolkien Fandom Oral History Collection.

[Sara Brown]

And we're not the only ones in awe of the scope and nature of this project. Our guest today is a documentary filmmaker and Tolkien fan who, upon finding out about this oral history project, decided to create a documentary following that project. Folks, please welcome to the ppp, the director of the Muster at Marquette, Andrew Koons.

[Andrew Koons]

Hello. Hello, everyone. Sara Allen. Thank you so much for having me.

[Sara Brown]

You're very welcome.

[Alan Sisto]

Absolutely. Our privilege. We're looking forward to this, though, of course, we're going to start by asking the question we ask everybody who comes on the ppp, including Bill Fliss. Way back in the day, what was your first experience of Tolkien's works? And then, what is it about the works that keeps you coming back?

[Andrew Koons]

Oh, my gosh, I love this question. Particularly that second part of it. What keeps me coming back? To it. I read Lord of the Rings and the Hobbit back when I was probably about 12 years old. We lived at a place where the library was literally right next door. So my brother and I would walk across a parking lot, go to the library, grab everything off the shelves we could. And that's how I discovered Lord of the Rings. My mother had read, I think she had read just the Fellowship of the Ring at the time and was like, yeah, you might like this, you like fantasy, like Chronicles of Narnia and things like that. And I mean, talk about just stepping into another world. I was, I was gone from the minute I started reading those books and so soon after the films came out. And I was incredibly inspired by those and particularly all the behind the scenes content. So I would have watched those when I was about 13, 14 years old. I got the extended edition DVD box set and just watched all, you know, 20 something hours of behind the scenes content. And that's really what inspired me to decide that filmmaking of some sort was a career that I wanted to go into.

[Sara Brown]

Oh, wonderful.

[Andrew Koons]

And yeah, I've been able to do that.

[Sara Brown]

Yeah, fabulous. So how did you discover this project and why did you choose it as a subject for a documentary film?

[Andrew Koons]

Yeah, so my wife actually is the one who found one of these Tolkien manuscript showings. We live in the Twin Cities. We live in a suburb of Minneapolis, so Marquette University of Milwaukee is not that far away. And she got us tickets for myself and her and a couple friends of ours who are coming in from Indiana. And we all went to see the exhibition and the showing and in doing just, you know, general research about that and what can I expect to see? Stumbled across the webpage for the Fandom oral history collection.

[Alan Sisto]

So pretty amazing project.

[Andrew Koons]

It's incredible. It's incredible. So soon after seeing the manuscripts and hearing Bill Flis talk about them, I had my appointment to schedule my own recording, my three minute recording. And it felt like a real big swing to say, hey, can you hold on for a couple minutes afterwards. I'm a documentary filmmaker and I'm interested in learning more about your project. We struck up a dialogue and eventually kind of came to the conclusion that, yeah, we think there's a cool story here. And it went from there.

[Alan Sisto]

That's awesome. Working with Bill is just, I'm sure it was fantastic. I mean, he's the best. He really is, isn't he?

[Andrew Koons]

Yeah, he is amazing. Super accommodating.

[Alan Sisto]

Very much so. We were so fortunate to have our PPP moot there in 2022, he was so wonderful to work with, he and his whole team. I mean it was, it's really from the top down that, that organization there is fantastic.

[Sara Brown]

Every time I've listened to him, he's just so interesting. He got so much stuff to tell us. Absolutely wonderful.

[Alan Sisto]

And what a project. I mean this, this oral history fandom project is amazing. The idea of trying to get, you know, the same number as we get the writers of Rohan to get 6,000 people.

[Andrew Koons]

6,000 may not have been as many as Theoden was hoping to get, but it's a lot of people to try to get to.

[Alan Sisto]

He wanted 10,000 plus. Yeah, it's a good thing he didn't get 10,000 or, or Bill would have quite a project ahead of him.

[Andrew Koons]

Indeed.

[Alan Sisto]

Well, I got a chance of course to watch pre release version of the film. Folks, those of you listening now, the film's already been out. It actually will have dropped on hobbit day on September 22nd. But of course we're recording this a little before that. I have to say I was flabbergasted to see some familiar faces and hear familiar voices. Several listeners of the PPP actually show up in this documentary. I gotta give a shout out to Josh and Sarah, to Bonnie, to Graham and probably some others that just I may not have have known or even listeners. And I know there are a lot of listeners in the project itself. I'm even number 180 in the second ARED. And we've got so many folks in there. But enough about the PPP and our amazing listeners. I wanted to ask you this question. What other Tolkien adjacent projects would you like to do in the future as a documentary filmmaker? I mean you, you watch those incredible behind the scenes films, maybe give us like two answers like what, what's maybe a small short term project that you think, oh, I really can do this with relative ease. Yeah, what's your dream? What if project?

[Andrew Koons]

So I think in doing the Muster at Marquette and talking to Bill about the fandom and kind of diving in, my interest is still piqued there. I think there's a lot more about the fandom to explore and maybe in something a little bit longer than a short documentary like, like the Muster is. So I think something about just the way fandom bring together, the way it fills a very important part of our lives and, and especially in an age where we're being pulled farther and farther apart from each other via distance and, and commutes and all sorts of things. Like how, how is fandom helping to fill the gap of those third spaces that are disappearing for a lot. So that could be interesting.

[Alan Sisto]

That really would be. Yeah.

[Andrew Koons]

I mean, as far as keeping in the documentary vein, as far as like a pipe dream project, you know, would would be really interested to do something long format about Arwen. I think that there's a real interesting character there. I think there's an interesting dichotomy of what people know because of the Jackson films and the way the role was kind of zhuzhed up for those. And then what's in the book, the way it ties into Baron and Luthien. I just think that there's an interesting story there to tell that people are less familiar with. So who knows if I'll ever get to that. But something around Arwen would be really interesting.

[Sara Brown]

Oh, that's a great choice.

[Alan Sisto]

I have a quick question. You know, I'm thinking about documentaries and you mentioned the fandom. First one that comes to mind. It's a little out of date now because it was back in 2005, but did you ever see Ringer's Lord of the Fans, the sort of feature length documentary?

[Andrew Koons]

Yes. Yeah. And it's incredible. And I think that what's great about these documentary films is that they're snapshots of where things were at that time. And so it's still relevant today even though it was made in 2005. But things have changed. And so, you know, what updates are there to report on in the last 20 years and whatnot.

[Alan Sisto]

Absolutely. That would be a tremendous film to see. Some sort of an expansion on that, like looking into the fandom. I like that idea a lot.

[Sara Brown]

Yeah, yeah, same. But here's a really important question for you. How can people watch the Muster at Marquette? Because they need to know how they can actually get to see that.

[Alan Sisto]

Yes.

[Sara Brown]

And what is it that you hope viewers will take away from watching your film?

[Andrew Koons]

So Mustard Marquette is available for free on my production company's YouTube channel. So it's YouTube.comvillage picturesco and it will be available in perpetuity there for free, never behind a paywall. And then as far as what I hope people get out of it, I mean, I think first and foremost I hope that if you haven't let your voice to the mustard, have. Have not done your three minute recording, that this inspires you to do. So I think the thing that I most took away from and that I hope people feel as well is the importance of this archive for future generations, the importance of these voices being preserved. There's a powerful moment in the film where Bill talks about people who have. Who have passed on, who now have their voices and their thoughts on Tolkien preserved, That's a really powerful thing. That's a thing that filmmaking, I think, uniquely allows us to do, and audio recordings uniquely allow us to do.

[Alan Sisto]

So.

[Andrew Koons]

I hope people are inspired by that and throw their. Throw their voice in.

[Sara Brown]

Oh, that's lovely.

[Alan Sisto]

I hope they do as well. We'll make sure to include a link to the film. Of course, we want folks to go watch the Muster at Marquette, but I think as a result of what you just said there, I'm going to make sure we also include a link to the oral history project so that folks who listen to this episode, listen to this interview, can go ahead and both watch the film and then immediately take part. I hope that. Hope that they do that as well.

[Andrew Koons]

Love it.

[Alan Sisto]

Andrew, thank you so much for joining us today. This has been a real privilege to have you here. We wish you all the success on the Muster at Marquette and any future projects for that matter, and may it serve to help fill the ranks of the oral history project at Marquette.

[Andrew Koons]

Thank you both so much for having me on.

[Sara Brown]

Well, that was delightful, wasn't it? Meeting Andrew.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah. Project. I loved really watching the film. I feel. I feel special. I got to watch the film before it came out. It was great.

[Sara Brown]

I'm looking forward to seeing it. And I do think that Bill Fliss's project is so important. That idea of capturing the oral history.

[Alan Sisto]

Imagine I'm looking into the future and thinking about fans 50 years from now, 100 years from now, who will be able to go back and hear the voices of people from. I think he started in 2014, 2013, maybe. Might have been when it began.

[Sara Brown]

I know that's well over 10 years ago now.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah. Yeah, exactly. So you're going to hear a range of voices, not only from the past, but. But from a range of the past, you know, because we're only at. I think he's close to 1100 now, so if he does hit that 6000 goal, it won't be for probably another 10 or 15 years, but what an amazing slice of history that will be.

[Sara Brown]

It's an incredible resource. But, yeah, what Andrew was saying there about hearing the voices of people who have already passed.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah, I know.

[Sara Brown]

That's just amazing.

[Alan Sisto]

It really is. And how important that is. I sort of understand that uniquely, because as a podcaster, I have that privilege of knowing my voice will be out there long after I'm gone. But for the fans who don't do that. You know, who don't talk and give talks and go to moots and, you know, get their opinions and thoughts recorded. The ordinary fan. And I'm putting air quotes around that because we're all just ordinary fans at.

[Sara Brown]

The end of the day, 100%.

[Alan Sisto]

They're. Their voices are just as important as Tom Shippies and Verland Fliegers and Corey Olson's. They're just as important as, you know, those of us who do the podcasting or content creation. And I'm so excited that that exists for the sake of history.

[Sara Brown]

Yes, I think it's wonderful. I really do.

[Alan Sisto]

I'm so glad that, that Andrew was able to show that to people. I think, I think it's. It's like the best sales pitch Bill has is to say, you know what, you want to know more about this? Watch this 10 minute short form documentary. You're going to really love it.

[Sara Brown]

Yeah, I agree. And back to your voice being held in perpetuity. I just had a visual of your voice being sent off to, I don't know, Voyager 17 or whatever it is. And the first thing the aliens hear when they come near to Earth is the sound of Alan Sisto's dulcet tones.

[Alan Sisto]

Doing something like Barry White or.

[Sara Brown]

Oh, my goodness, can you imagine? I think that they would probably decide to build that bypass right through us.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah, I was gonna say this is absolutely time for that hyperspatial bypass. The Hitchhiker's Guide crossover we knew we needed.

[Sara Brown]

But enough of our nonsense.

[Alan Sisto]

Yes, always.

[Sara Brown]

Shall we move into Aldarian and Arendus's nonsense?

[Alan Sisto]

We should. We should. Absolutely.

[Sara Brown]

Well, you should. You should start with the first reading.

[Alan Sisto]

I'll pick up exactly where we left off last week. In that time, Aldarion became estranged from his father and ceased to speak openly of his designs and his desires. But Almarion the Queen supported her son in all that he did, and Meneldur perforce let matters go as they must. For the Venturers grew in numbers and in the esteem of men, and they called them Uenendili, the lovers of Uinen and their captain became the less easy to rebuke or restrain. The ships of the Numenoreans became ever larger and of greater draft in those days, until they could make far voyages carrying many men and great cargoes. And Aldarion was often long gone from Numenor Tar Meneldur ever opposed his son, and he set a curb on the felling of trees in Numenor for the building of vessels. And it came therefore into Eldarion's mind that he would find timber in Middle Earth and seek there for a haven for the repair of his ships. In his voyages down the coasts, he looked with wonder on the great forests. And at the mouth of the river that the Numerorians called Guafir, river of Shadow, he established Vignalonde, the new haven.

[Sara Brown]

Oh, dun, dun, dun.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah, Foreboding right there.

[Sara Brown]

Oh, yes, that's. That's really sending up the old signals about what going to come, isn't it?

[Alan Sisto]

I just think about that. He looked with wonder on the great forests. Parentheses. That will not always be there. End parentheses.

[Sara Brown]

Yeah, yeah, indeed. Well, that was, that was a short reading, but it was a really important one because it sets up all sorts of things that are going to be going wrong or going. Going sideways.

[Alan Sisto]

Sideways at the very least. Yeah.

[Sara Brown]

Yes, absolutely. Now, let's start with one particular thing. Last week we mentioned that this rift between Tarmin Elder and Aldarion would result in a full blown estrangement. And here it is, right?

[Alan Sisto]

And folks, it gets. By the end of this episode, the estrangement becomes open rebellion.

[Sara Brown]

So yes, he doesn't just go, no contact.

[Alan Sisto]

No, no, that's true. No. And so as a result of this estrangement, Aldarin isn't even telling his dad anymore about what he wants or intends to do. And again, I just come back to last week and the whole thing when he first came back from his first voyage and how his dad was like, so what was it, son, that. That lives most in your memory from this trip? Like he cared. Because that's the kind of guy Maneldor is. The problem now is he doesn't want to hear it because the answer is not going to be anything that makes him proud of his son. It's going to be disappointing.

[Sara Brown]

So, yes, yeah. And you can understand actually, because it's not just about being disappointed in his son. It's being disappointed in the fact that Aldarion neglecting his duty.

[Alan Sisto]

Exactly. And we will see that throughout this episode, actually. Of course, on the other hand, his mother is still on his side. I don't know. I'm not. Kind of not a big fan actually.

[Sara Brown]

No. And I don't actually understand why she's on his side here. Because she's the queen. So she does understand duty. She does understand the fact that Eldarion was born to be king and therefore he does actually have to, I don't know, spend some time.

[Alan Sisto]

But he's my baby boy and he can't do anything wrong.

[Sara Brown]

Oh, good Grief. That is such a stereotype.

[Alan Sisto]

I know, I know. I'm just.

[Sara Brown]

But does she have to be such a boy mom?

[Alan Sisto]

She kind of is a boy mom, isn't she? As we'll see. She's. Yeah, but we'll see her meddling later. Yeah.

[Sara Brown]

Yeah.

[Alan Sisto]

But. So, Meneldor, of course. I love the way this is phrased, perforce, let things go. And that is an interesting word choice there by Tolkien, because perforce is used to express either necessity or inevitability. But is this really either one of those?

[Sara Brown]

Yeah.

[Alan Sisto]

Is this happy wife, happy life sort of thing?

[Sara Brown]

Yeah, but here's the thing. Minilda is the king, right?

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah.

[Sara Brown]

Why doesn't he just say, you know what, son, you're done?

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah, right. He sort of puts his foot down in, like, tiny ways ever so more aggressively throughout this episode. Like, first, it's okay. We're going to put a limit on how much wood can be cut for the purpose of shipbuilding, which is really a very minimal effort.

[Sara Brown]

It's very minimal.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah. Eventually it turns into. Well, it goes eventually to a full ban, you know. No, you can't go. But he just doesn't put his foot down soon enough. I don't feel like he's just.

[Sara Brown]

No, he doesn't. This is not great parenting, to be honest. But what gets me here is that Minelda puts small obstacles in the way of Aldarion. And all this teaches Aldarion is how to circumvent these small obstacles.

[Alan Sisto]

Well, you're not kidding. It does, doesn't it?

[Sara Brown]

Yeah, exactly. And in circumventing the small obstacles, he's just creating a worse rift. But also, he's pushing Aldarion further away because if he says, you know, you can't have the Numenorean trees. And Aldarion says, well, okay, I'll have the Middle Earth trees.

[Alan Sisto]

They aren't the only trees around here. Yeah, exactly.

[Sara Brown]

Exactly. So that means Aldarion will definitely not be in Numenor because he wants the. Now, I'm not saying that Tarmon Eldor should say, okay, no problem, son. Cut down all the trees. No, but I mean, yeah, okay, Aldarion is a grown man at this point. It's not about dad putting his foot down to his son. It's about a king saying to the king in waiting, no, this is your duty. You were born to this, and you're shirking it right now.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah, yeah. 100.

[Sara Brown]

But we do get another reason pretty quickly why this is perforce. And it's not just to do with Eldarion's mum.

[Alan Sisto]

It's the.

[Sara Brown]

It's the popularity of Eldarion and the Guild adventurers.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah.

[Sara Brown]

They're like the rock stars of Numenor, aren't they?

[Alan Sisto]

They really are, aren't they? Yeah.

[Sara Brown]

Yeah. If they had K. Pop back in the day, perhaps N. Pop.

[Alan Sisto]

Numero pop, you know, and that. That is a problem. I mean, you give a prideful man an audience, and that's why all of a sudden, Eldarion is now even less easy to rebuke or restrain. So what. What in effect, could. Could Meneldor have done differently? I mean, there's. There's three dynamics here. You've got the Meneldur Aldarian dynamic, but you also have that dynamic between him and the queen and then the dynamic between Meneldur and his wife, you know, so you've got these three relationships and the relationship between the three of them, and none of them are quite where they need to be.

[Sara Brown]

No, no.

[Alan Sisto]

It's a tough one. 1. I don't know what he could have done differently other than be a little firmer up front, you know, and just really ex. Here are the expectations, and you will meet them. I'm sorry, but you know, Mom's not going to be able to rescue you from this, you know.

[Sara Brown]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Alan Sisto]

You've got this obligation to do and.

[Sara Brown]

Because he doesn't put his foot down, because he doesn't do anything about this, what he gets then, as we've just said, Aldarion and the guild adventurers just get. Get increasingly popular. And the more popular they get, the greater their numbers become.

[Alan Sisto]

And then the more they cycle.

[Sara Brown]

Yeah. It is absolutely a cycle. And they become like the heroes of Numenor. Now what are you gonna do? Because it's not just about shutting down your son. You're now telling the entire guild adventurers that they can't do what they're doing. Really? Good luck.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah, good luck with that. Because even though he is the king and he doesn't need the popular support, we all know that the popular support is really crucial for him to be able to govern.

[Sara Brown]

Yep.

[Alan Sisto]

So.

[Sara Brown]

Yeah. So as you were saying about the father, son, mother, son, king, queen dynamic.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah.

[Sara Brown]

None of this is working.

[Alan Sisto]

No, no. And the popularity of the guild is a reason why is a reason. Not the reason, but a reason. Now, whether that larger guild led to the bigger ships or whether the bigger ships led to the larger guild, we're not told sort of which came first. But at the same time, as the guild and Aldarian are Growing in popularity. The ship are growing in size. So now they can go farther, go longer and carry more.

[Sara Brown]

Yeah. And this ties back to what we were talking about last time with Aeldarion from a very young age, being interested in designing his own ships.

[Alan Sisto]

Yes, yeah, yeah.

[Sara Brown]

And really, he's pushing the boundaries of what the Numenoreans have been able to achieve so far. And they've always been mariners, let's face.

[Alan Sisto]

It, from the very beginning. Right. I mean, you had to be. To get there.

[Sara Brown]

Yeah. So, I mean, on Eldarion's side here, if we took out of the equation the fact that he's going to be king and he's supposed to be behaving himself in a very different way to what he's doing.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah.

[Sara Brown]

What he is doing is he is pushing forward the boundaries of their technology.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah, he is innovating. He absolutely is. I mean, we've talked before about, you know, strengthening the harbors and the. And the docks and, you know, all of these things. He's. He's working at doing good for Numenor in many ways.

[Sara Brown]

Yeah. Of course, Tolkien had his own idea on just how good it was to have technology pushing forward. That's a whole different question. Right.

[Alan Sisto]

That is.

[Sara Brown]

And shockingly well, as in not shocking at all. This leads to Aldarion being often long gone from the island.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah.

[Sara Brown]

Yeah. That's the natural consequence, isn't it? And this just increases then the opposition from his father, who's understandably going to want his son and heir to be there with him to help in leading Numenor. So this whole thing just perpetuates.

[Alan Sisto]

It really does. And that's where we get that thinly, thinly veiled but also really ineffective way of limiting Eldari and the whole, well, we're just going to put a cap on the number of trees that can be felled for this purpose. I mean, it's. It's a sideways effort, and it really doesn't accomplish much at all. Is there another decision short of just, you must stop? Is there some sort of policy decision he might have been able to make that would have had a better effect here, do you think? I mean, I don't know.

[Sara Brown]

I don't know. I mean, you would have thought perhaps he would try actually sitting down over a cup of coffee with his son and saying, look, son, okay, so here's the thing. And maybe approaching him as an adult who is rational and can make his own choices and all that sort of thing, but I think it's gone beyond that. That by this point, I think that the time to have curbed Aldarion was 20 years ago. And it's just gone way beyond that now. So I don't know. I mean, can you think of a better decision?

[Alan Sisto]

No. I was racking my brain even when I was writing this. Like, what could he have done? I mean, like you said, he can't completely neuter the Guild Adventurers. He needs to allow them to continue. The problem is that he needs his son to stay. So what do you do? You say, okay, you got to resign your leadership of the Guild Adventurers. But the problem is, as we'll see, Guild Adventures is very much a cult of personality.

[Sara Brown]

Oh, yes, they're oh, Captain, my Captain, aren't they?

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah, so. And we'll definitely get to that. So I don't know that there is anything he could have done differently.

[Sara Brown]

But the problem with what Tarmon Elder decides is going to be the obstacle he places in Eldarion's way. Because, let's face it, building bigger ships uses more trees. So I get this as well. He tells him, right, no more trees from Numenor. But this just drives Aeldarion to look for timber in Middle Earth. Right, Exactly. He's been there. He's been up and down the coast. He knows that there are massive untapped resources there. Ones that his dad can't forbid him from taking.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah, that's right.

[Sara Brown]

So then he establishes Vignolande at the mouth of the Grey Flood, which is here called Gwathier, but it's mostly known as Gwathlo.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah, and if you look at a map, folks, you're going to see that is roughly halfway between the Brandywine or Branduine and the Isen. Right? Cyr Angren, the Gray Flood, is the river formed by the Bruinen, the Loud water. That's the one that flows through Rivendell. It goes sort of southwest. And then the myth, Ethel, the Horwell, the one where the last bridge was that or Glorfindel left that token for Aragorn to find. Those two rivers meet to the southwest of Rivendell at the border of Eregion. And there they flow south, where they're joined at Tharbed by the Swan Fleet. So now you're sort of hopefully getting a geographical idea of where this is now, per the footnote to this section, Vindhi Lande would eventually become known as Lond Dyer. And we will have a lot more to say about this place both throughout these episodes in Aeldarion at Orendis. But Also later when it comes up in the history of Galadriel and Celeborn with James later in the season.

[Sara Brown]

Yep. And just to help with the timeline, this is all still between 750 of the second age when we know the guild was founded, and 800 of the second age when Eldarion is declared the King's heir.

[Andrew Koons]

Yeah.

[Sara Brown]

Now speaking of the King's heir.

[Alan Sisto]

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[Sara Brown]

Indeed, the PPP really does have a warm and welcoming listener community. If you've got questions or just want to talk about how much you love Middle Earth, be sure to check out our Common room on Facebook and across all social media. On Facebook, just look for the Prancing Pony podcast. I mean, yet there's a page, but you're going to want to join the group for that great fan community.

[Alan Sisto]

Absolutely. Now on every social media platform other than Facebook, we are prancingponypod and you can find our subreddit @r prancingponypod. Be sure to check out my Daily show, today's Tolkien Times on YouTube and your favorite podcast apps. Get your daily Middle Earth fix with everything from Middle Earth map Mondays to first stage Fridays. Be sure to watch or listen at YouTube.com prancingponypod all right, well, we were going to talk about the king's heir, so let's talk about the king's heir.

[Sara Brown]

Okay. Yep. Okay, here we go. When things get just a little bit worse but when nigh on 800 years had passed since the beginning of the Second Age, Tar Meneldur commanded his son to remain now in Numenor, and to cease for a time his eastward voyaging, for he desired to proclaim Aldarion the king's heir, as had been done at that age of the heir by the kings before him. Then Meneldor and a son were reconciled for that time, and there was peace between them, and amid joy and feasting, Eldarion was proclaimed heir in the hundredth year of his age, and received from his father the title and power of Lord of the ships and Havens of Numenor. To the feasting in Armenelos came one Beregar from his dwelling in the west of the isle and and with him came Arendys his daughter. There Almarian the queen observed her beauty of a kind seldom seen in for Beregar came of the house of Beor by ancient descent, though not of the royal line of Elros. And Arendys was dark haired and of slender grace, with the clear grey eyes of her kin. But Arendys looked upon Aldarion as he rode by. And for his beauty and splendour of bearing, she had eyes for little else. Okay, we have to skip a bit here because we have to. I'm not allowed to read it all, but it is a shame. But here we go. When six years had passed since the proclamation of the king's heir, Eldarion determined to sail again to Middle Earth of the king, he got but grudging leave, for he refused his father's urging that he abide in Numenor and seek a wife. And he set sail in the spring of the year. But coming to bid farewell to his mother, he saw Arendis amid the queen's company. And looking on her beauty, he divined the strength that lay concealed in her. Then Almarion said to him. Must you depart again, Aldarion, my son, Is there nothing that will hold you in the fairest of all mortal lands? Not yet, he answered. But there are fairer things in Armenelos than a man could find elsewhere. Even in the lands of the Eldar. But mariners are men of two minds, at war with themselves. And the desire of the sea still holds me. Arendus believed that these words were spoken also for her ears. And from that time forth, her heart was turned wholly to Aldarion. Though not in hope. In those days, there was no need by law or custom that those of the royal house, not even the king's heir, should wed only with descendants of Elros Tar Minyatur. But Arendus deemed that Ardarion was too high. Yet she looked on no man with favor thereafter. And every suitor she dismissed.

[Alan Sisto]

Oh boy, talk about.

[Sara Brown]

Decisions were made, choices were made.

[Alan Sisto]

So the beginning of this passage helps us get reacquainted with the timeline, right. Just before second age, 800 Meneldor tells the son to stay put, right? I'm going to be declaring you the king's heir. Doing that when the heir is 100 years old. That's just how things are done. Remember, this is still sort of a newish kingdom, right? I mean, Maneldor is only the. The fifth king, and realistically, the fourth king, since Elros's son was already 380 some odd years old, was like, skip me. Yeah. He's like, I'm not gonna bother.

[Sara Brown]

I'm not doing that.

[Alan Sisto]

I've waited a long time. I'm just not gonna Bother, Father. I will say, though, that Aldarian is going to change this tradition, among others. So just spoilers there.

[Sara Brown]

Yes, he will. And in the meantime, being declared the king's heir helps bring Aeldarion back into a reconciled state with Mineldo for that time.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah. I thought that was pretty telling. For that time.

[Sara Brown]

Absolutely. That's doing a lot of heavy lifting in that sentence.

[Alan Sisto]

It sure is.

[Sara Brown]

And in second age 800, he is declared the heir, and he's given more titles and authorities now. Lord of the Ships and Havens of Numenor.

[Alan Sisto]

I have to say, in a way, this makes really good political sense for Meneldor to do this. I mean, he's playing to his son's strengths. There really is no one better suited for the job, and nobody, more importantly, that the public would rather have with the popularity of the Guild Adventurers. And it would, at first glance at least, suggest that Meneldor might now be able to exercise a bit more authority. I mean, he's not just a captain running around doing his own little thing now. He's Numenor's captain, right?

[Sara Brown]

Yes.

[Alan Sisto]

He's the Lord of the Ships and Havens of Numenor. So you answer to me in this role, arguably. Answer to him anyway, because he's the king. But there's a part of me that's like, you're giving your son exactly what he wants with very few limits or guardrails. Is this a good idea? I don't know what else he could have done. And I kind of lean towards, yes, it's a good idea because it's like the last best hope for some sort of wisdom to show up.

[Sara Brown]

Yeah. I give Meneldur the benefit of the doubt here that what he wants is to reconcile with his son.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah.

[Sara Brown]

I think he hopes in holding this out. You're going to be the king's heir. Here is the title I am giving you that. This might make Aldarion think differently and perhaps, you know, feel differently towards his father and towards Numenor.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah. Towards his responsibility. Right. You are the Lord of the Ships and Havens of Numenor.

[Sara Brown]

Of Numenor.

[Alan Sisto]

Not of the Guild Adventurers, but of this place, Place of the people that you will be king for. Yeah.

[Sara Brown]

Yes. It's a shame it doesn't work.

[Alan Sisto]

I know. It was a try. An effort was made.

[Sara Brown]

Now, the proclamation of the king's heir is a really big event for the right people in Numenor. And of course, as you'd expect, there were feasts in the palace, all sorts of parties, etc, and one of the men who comes to this feast is Beregar, a direct descendant of Beor.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah.

[Sara Brown]

And his daughter Arendis. Here we go. Described as dark haired and of slender grace, with the clear gray eyes of her kin. Now she is 29 years old in 800 of the second age because she was born in 771 and Aldarion is already 71 years old. This sounds creepier than it actually is.

[Alan Sisto]

71 to 29 does sound like an awfully big age gap. But we will math out that age gap in detail later. But I promise you folks, it's not quite as bad as you might think, given the way way the Numenorean extended lifespans operate. While we will get into that mathematical detail later, for now, I just want to say that as a man of 100, right, that's how old he is now. Born in SA 700 is now SA 800. He's more like a 36 year old man. And horrendous at 29 is roughly 22, almost 23.

[Sara Brown]

Yeah, I mean that's still a bit.

[Alan Sisto]

Of an age gap. There's still a gap.

[Sara Brown]

White as red flag.

[Alan Sisto]

It's not 7129 though.

[Sara Brown]

Which. Hooray.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah.

[Sara Brown]

Now the footnote to this passage here quotes the Silmarillion, but I want to look at more than what the footnote references. So what we need to do is go to chapter 17 of the coming of Men into the west, where we get clear descriptions of the physical characteristics of the three houses of the Edain. And there we read. The men of the House of Beor were dark or brown of hair, with grey eyes, and of all men, they were most like to the Noldor and most loved by them. And for they were eager of mind, cunning handed, swift in understanding, long in memory, and they were moved sooner to pity than to laughter.

[Alan Sisto]

That particular bit really grabbed me this time because, you know, of course I've read the story of Eldarion and Arendus before, but I don't think it's been until this reading that I've caught this particular difference. And only because we sort of lingered last week on Aldarion being ready to mirth, because I kind of thought that was such a funny way of putting it. But he's ready to mirth. And we're reminded that the people of the House of Beor, the people of Orendus kin, are moved sooner to pity than to laughter.

[Sara Brown]

Yeah, they're a bit more serious.

[Alan Sisto]

They are. And I think we're Going to see that as being yet another one of those areas of, you know, a little sore spot for conflict. That same footnote, by the way, also provides a very interesting detail about their line of descent in the House of Beor. As Christopher points out, according to a genealogical table of the House of Beor, Arendus was descended from Bereth. Now, in the War of the Jewels, Christopher actually acknowledges this name as an error. Her name was Beleth with an L, not an R, who was the sister of Baragund and Belegund, and thus the aunt of Morwen, mother of Turin, Turambar and of Rion, the mother of Tuor.

[Sara Brown]

Wow.

[Alan Sisto]

So Rendus is descended from the great aunt of Turin and Tuor.

[Sara Brown]

That's some ancestry, isn't it?

[Alan Sisto]

That really is. I mean, it also, I think, does give us another glimpse into her physical beauty.

[Sara Brown]

Yes.

[Alan Sisto]

I mean, both Morwen and Rion are described in similar ways, especially Morwen, who, you know, was. Was really one of the most stunning of mortal women, according to the text. So it is interesting, but I love that dissent that, you know, all these important people are connected.

[Sara Brown]

But I think it also gives us an insight into horrendous character. Now, if we're provided with that connection, it's about her beauty. Yes. But as we discussed last time, we don't need to bring up the beauty first thing because there's often other things to talk about. And for me here, what's really interesting is the similarity between the personality of Morwen and the personality of Hirendis.

[Alan Sisto]

You're absolutely right.

[Sara Brown]

Those two, they're both very solemn and serious. One of the things that I notice in the relationship, for example, between Morwen and Turin is that it is not what you might call demonstrative.

[Alan Sisto]

Oh, no, not at all.

[Sara Brown]

And I am not saying that Morwen doesn't love her son because she clearly very much does.

[Alan Sisto]

She does.

[Sara Brown]

But she, she. She either just doesn't know how to express that or it's just not part of who she is to do that.

[Alan Sisto]

You wouldn't describe her as touchy feely?

[Sara Brown]

Not so much.

[Alan Sisto]

I mean, you could arguably describe her as cold. You know, certainly if you look at the full version of the Children of Hurin story, you do see moments like that in his childhood, before the three of them are separated, before Hurin's capture at the neonith. And there are times where you just kind of like want to shake your head and be like.

[Sara Brown]

Yep, say something. Do something. You know, something with a little bit.

[Alan Sisto]

Of love attached, a little bit of warmth.

[Sara Brown]

Yeah, yeah, exactly.

[Alan Sisto]

But maybe it's not in her personality, like you said.

[Sara Brown]

It's just not in her personality. And I see so many connections between the way in which Arendus behaves, how she is and the way in which Morwen behaves. I mean, I think you've spotted that before.

[Alan Sisto]

That's a really good insight. Good point.

[Sara Brown]

Thank you, sir. I do love it when you like my stuff.

[Alan Sisto]

You're quite welcome. I don't think I'd ever connected Morwen and Arendis. But you're 100% right to do that.

[Sara Brown]

Yeah. And we will be able to, I think, make further connections.

[Alan Sisto]

I think so.

[Sara Brown]

Because we'll be able to look at Morwen's relationship with her son and how badly that turns out. And Arendes's relationship with her daughter and how badly that turns out.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah. Once on Calume is born. I think you're right. We'll see even more of that. Because now that you've mentioned that, I'm playing those moments in my head. Head. Seeing a lot of that same sort of.

[Sara Brown]

There's a pattern here.

[Alan Sisto]

There is. There really is. I think we're going to spot that as we go forward. Yeah, Excellent catch.

[Sara Brown]

So right now Arendis is not checking out Eldarion's readiness to merge. Oh, no. She's checking out something very, very different. You know, as he rides away from her or whatever. Anyway, for his beauty and splendor of bearing, she had eyes for little else. Our Darion's a bit of a looker.

[Alan Sisto]

Apparently so.

[Sara Brown]

Yeah, apparently so.

[Alan Sisto]

We do know that. Right. He's tall, he's blonde, he's a good looking guy. Yeah.

[Sara Brown]

Yes, we've had all that description. We actually looked at that, didn't we, last episode. Unsurprisingly, she is immediately drawn to him. I mean, he's pretty. Yeah, right.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah. And I'm sure he's dressed well and well, like we read. Right. Not just that he looks. Looks good, but that he's got a splendor of bearing.

[Sara Brown]

Yeah.

[Alan Sisto]

This is a guy who is on top of the world. Yeah, he is. Self confidence is not something he lacks. He might lack some wisdom, he might lack restraint. He does not lack self confidence. So he carries himself accordingly. Yeah.

[Sara Brown]

Yes, yes. And she likes the way he uses his walk.

[Alan Sisto]

Yes, she does.

[Sara Brown]

That is true. Oh yeah. In. In the bit of this that we skipped in the reading, she actually enters Almarian's household.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah.

[Sara Brown]

Right.

[Alan Sisto]

I'm gonna go work for the queen. I want to get closer to this guy.

[Sara Brown]

Absolutely. I mean, you've got to be honest. She's working there.

[Alan Sisto]

She is.

[Sara Brown]

Yeah. She's doing her best. I don't blame her. Here. So she works for the Queen and is said to have found favor also with Minelda. So she's working the potential in laws.

[Alan Sisto]

She is. And that's pretty impressive. She is a young woman. She's, you know, not from the line of Elros and we'll get to that as well. But boy, it sure is interesting to see her already getting there. I also thought it was interesting in the text. I don't think I put this in the notes. But we're told about her beauty almost through the eyes of Almarien. She's the one who observes her beauty.

[Sara Brown]

Oh yes.

[Alan Sisto]

Not Aldarion and not Meneldur. He's not. Oh, look at her, son. She's pretty. No, it's the Queen.

[Sara Brown]

There are things actually that I would love to talk about in terms of Aldarion's lack of response really to Arendus's beauty. It's fascinating to me and there's actually been some wonderful up to date scholarship done on Aldarion. This idea that, I mean, she's there. She's one of the most beautiful women in Numenor at this moment. Right. She's stunningly beautiful. And Eldarion's like, like, yeah, okay, I'm off on my boat now.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah, right. My love of the sea still grips me.

[Sara Brown]

Yes. But what do we do with that? Okay. Because the love of the sea still grips me. But he seems to have zero interest in women. Yeah, we've had no kind of indication that he's had any interest in this.

[Alan Sisto]

And later, when Maneldor keeps prompting him to marry him, the more he pushes, pushes, the more he pushes back. Like, I don't want anything to do with this.

[Sara Brown]

Yeah. And I'd love to pick up on this again later, but some of this new scholarship is talking about how Aldarion simply is not interested. In other words, his full focus is on sailing. And one of the reasons, because there's many reasons for it. One of the reasons for this is that he, he actually behaves like an asexual now man. One who has no interest whatsoever in the beauty of others or in he's not sexually attracted. This just isn't a thing. He's off on his boat. And I find those, the. The new scholarship on Aeldarion really interesting here for that.

[Alan Sisto]

I wouldn't be shocked. I mean, he certainly doesn't seem to have. I mean he is. He should at least be acknowledging we should be seeing that. Oh, you know, she caught his eye or something. I mean, that's what we see in all the other male characters. Beren immediately captured under this spell. Right. Even Thingol is immediately enraptured by Melian's beauty. Eldarin's like, yeah, I don't even. Who. I didn't catch her. Who. I didn't see who you're talking about.

[Sara Brown]

There's this throwaway line where he says, yeah, I mean, there are some beautiful things around here too, but I'm leaving now.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah, yeah. It's interesting because we'll get to that. That was in this reading. Exactly where she think, oh, he was saying that for my benefit. I think you might have been saying the second half of that line more for your. Your clarity. The. The love of the sea still grips me as. We'll get there. Yeah.

[Sara Brown]

Yes, exactly. So she's working in the palace, and both Minelda and Omarion seem to think highly of her, but she rarely sees Aldarion.

[Alan Sisto]

Oh, yeah, of course. And that's because he's off doing the forestry thing, right? Where we. We read that he busied himself in the tending of the forests. And that's because he wanted to ensure that Numenor had a timber supply that wouldn't run out. Out. This is good, right? This is a. Again, we've talked before. Just like last week, we're not going to always bash Aldari and we're not going to always bash Horrendous. There are plenty of opportunities for both, but there are also plenty of opportunities to say, this is a good decision. You know, I mean, he's trying to practice good forestry. And I think next episode, or maybe later in this one, we read where he says to his dad in anger, there are going to be more trees at the end of my reign than there are now. You know, even though I'm chopping them all down to build. To build ships.

[Sara Brown]

Yeah, he might behave like a doofus on occasions, but he is not a two dimensional villain figure.

[Alan Sisto]

No, not at all. And he's a very smart man. At least when it comes to these resources. He knows that he needs to shepherd these. So while this is all happening, Aldarion's merry men in the guild, adventurers, they want to get back to the sea, right? They don't like sailing under lesser commanders. And this is where we come back to that thing about, well, what Minelder could have done. And this is the drawback to building a cult of personality. They don't want to follow anybody but you, Eldarion, yes, you might have second in command, but now this is the kind of thing that when you die, the Guild Adventures is going to die. They don't want to follow anybody but you.

[Sara Brown]

Yeah, that is a massive problem actually, isn't it?

[Alan Sisto]

A very big problem. You need to build leadership that sustains and that can run forever, even in your absence. And then that way, when you're king, the Guild can keep doing its guildy thing while you're ruling the people and loving the land.

[Sara Brown]

But you're not going to tell them. You know what? I don't think Eldarion's even got that in his head at this point.

[Alan Sisto]

He's not thinking that far ahead in anything except for lumber and shipbuilding and sailing. He's very singularly focused.

[Sara Brown]

Yeah. Yes. Which as you said, is not a good thing. And six years later, which will be the second age 806 Aldarion is 106, Erendis 35. As we said before, that's not quite as revolting as it sounds. Eldarion decides it's time to set sail. Now, Minelda would prefer that he stayed in Numenor and look for a wife. Eldarion, as we've just talked about, has zero interest in any of that. Thank you. He grudgingly permits his son to leave. And I wonder if he really had any choice by then.

[Alan Sisto]

That's the thing. This is almost another perforce moment. Moment. Yeah.

[Sara Brown]

Yep, yep. And now we get to that meet cute, if you can call it that. Because, yeah, there's not a lot of sparkage going on here.

[Alan Sisto]

There's not.

[Sara Brown]

It's all a bit one sidedarian goes to say goodbye to mummy who supported him even when grumpy dad didn't. And he sees a rendis.

[Alan Sisto]

And this is intriguing, right? I mean, the text tells us that he notices her beauty. I mean, I've got to imagine it's hard not to. Even if he isn't attracted in that sense.

[Sara Brown]

Sense.

[Alan Sisto]

How do you not observe just empirically her beauty?

[Sara Brown]

Right.

[Alan Sisto]

He does, we're told, see beyond that. And what attracts him in some way is the strength that lay concealed in her. Which again, I think we come back to that line of dissent, you know, that connection. That's a Mormon thing for sure. Steel sheen for a reason.

[Sara Brown]

Exactly.

[Alan Sisto]

I think there's a lot of that in her as well.

[Sara Brown]

Yeah, yeah. But you just use the word attracted and I'm not sure he is. I think he's more interested.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah, that's a way to put it.

[Sara Brown]

Something else I think you're right.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah. I guess I was thinking in the sense of like, what is appealing to him about her. And it's not her beauty, it's that strength, even if it's not attracting. In the sense of attraction. Yeah.

[Sara Brown]

Right. Yeah. I suppose it puts her just that little bit higher than the rest of the beautiful women around court. You know, he does at least notice that there's something interesting about her. But that's it. Like I said, zero sparkage.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah, zero spark. But I am at least, you know, gonna give him a half point for the fact that what he notices about her is a character trait and.

[Sara Brown]

Yes.

[Alan Sisto]

You know, yes.

[Sara Brown]

Yeah. It's not like her beauty or her inner strengths have any impact at all on him at the time.

[Alan Sisto]

No, no, he's off.

[Sara Brown]

He's still off to sail the seven seas or, you know, something like that. That.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah. And the Queen. Are you really sure you want to leave my eligible son? Is there nothing. Wink, wink, points to the woman behind me. Is there nothing that could keep you here? Yes.

[Sara Brown]

I think we're beginning to see why Al. Marian thought, let's keep this arris in court. That's why she hid her in front of Aldarion and see if it takes. It doesn't take. Yeah. We get a response from Eldarion that in many ways defines this entire story.

[Alan Sisto]

It does, doesn't it?

[Sara Brown]

Yeah. There are things of more beauty here in this place than there are even among the elves. But I'm a double minded man and I'm still in love with the sea.

[Alan Sisto]

I think it's generous to call himself. You know, mariners are men of two minds. No, you're not. You've got one mind.

[Sara Brown]

Very, very one mind.

[Alan Sisto]

It is very generous to yourself to say that you are of two minds and at war with yourself. You're not at war with yourself.

[Sara Brown]

No, there's no war.

[Alan Sisto]

You made it very clear what you want. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Sara Brown]

Arendes does think that what he's referring to in the fairer things in our Menelaus line is her. Yeah, she may be right, but it's like he's tossing off a compliment while he's going out the door.

[Alan Sisto]

Right, right.

[Sara Brown]

It does seem like a pretty slim thing to hang your hopes on.

[Alan Sisto]

It is a very slim thing. And yet that's exactly what she does. Her heart was turned wholly to Aldarion.

[Sara Brown]

Oh, de.

[Alan Sisto]

Oh, no. I mean, that was just an absolute face palm moment when I read that. And what's interesting is she knew even then, before it turns out that he was kind of a jerk. She even knew at that moment there was zero chance of this working out. He's literally too high as a descendant of Elros himself for her to ever consider marrying. Now, I wanted to kind of just freeform discussion on this because I didn't have a lot of points to make. I think when we do get into the nature of Middle Age Earth, we learned that, yeah, there is a tradition that Eldarion establishes partly as a result of his marriage with Orendus, that you should only marry kings, should only marry within the heirs of the line of Elros. But this is really arguably the first generation where that would have even been an option. Yeah, because there's not enough. You'd be cousins too close at this point. And even then, just like with the elves, you didn't marry closer than second cousin. Cousin. And no, because.

[Sara Brown]

Ick.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah, exactly. Idril would like to have a word. And you know it, Michael. Like, I don't know what you're talking about. I. So it's. It's one of these things where, yeah, sure, it would have been great for you to date within the line of Elros, but right now that pool is really shallow and looks a lot like you, so. But I get her point. I mean, she's not noble enough. She's not even of. Of that house. Right. She's of the House of Beor, which is less noble, as we'll get to when it comes to sort of the lifespan thing.

[Sara Brown]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. And it's interesting that it's made fairly clear here that the problem is not the fact that she is of the House of Beor, because there is nothing to say that the heir to the king can not marry somebody outside of the line of Elros. But of course, what is not really said is the mahusive problem of not being also of the line of Elros is your time span. Because for Aldarion, time is so much greater. For Arendis, not so much. And this is going to be one of the main problems.

[Alan Sisto]

Absolutely. One of the central problems in their relationship.

[Sara Brown]

Yep. Yeah. And I love the fact that he stops other people making that same mistake after he's already already made a doozy of it.

[Alan Sisto]

Yes, he has.

[Sara Brown]

Yeah. So even though she believes she has no chance with Eldarion, and even though Eldarion basically said, well, yeah, you're beautiful, but the sea is my mistress, she dismisses anyone who shows her interest. She's turning away those suitors at the door.

[Alan Sisto]

Swipe left, swipe left.

[Sara Brown]

Yeah, she's Only swiped right on one.

[Alan Sisto]

One. And he's off, right? He's just off.

[Sara Brown]

Can you imagine his dating profile? Oh, dear.

[Alan Sisto]

But he's ready to birth. I still want somebody to put that in their dating profile. I'm serious about that. I want one of our listeners, somebody who actually can be on those absence. You and I can't. Don't say I love to laugh or I really like a good sense of humor to say I'm ready to mirth. Tell me how that works out for you.

[Sara Brown]

Yeah, but. Yeah, the problem is you might be ready to mirth. But because all he wants to do is sail, he's also ready to birth. So.

[Alan Sisto]

Birth with an e. Of course.

[Sara Brown]

Great one.

[Alan Sisto]

I love that.

[Sara Brown]

Thank you.

[Alan Sisto]

That's brilliant. Absolutely.

[Sara Brown]

Yeah. But it would read very badly in any kind of Tinder profile. Grinder profile. I'm not judging. No, yeah, enough of that. Enough of that. I think we should move on to the next reading.

[Alan Sisto]

I think we should. All right.

[Andrew Koons]

Right.

[Alan Sisto]

So he's off. Right? He heads off. We're going to pick up. Seven years passed before Aldarion came back, bringing with him ore of silver and gold. And he spoke with his father of his voyage and his deeds. But Meneldur said, rather would I have had you beside me than any news or gifts from the Dark Lands. This is the part of merchants and explorers, not of the king's heir. What need have we of more silver and gold, unless to use in pride where other things would serve as well. The need of the king's house is for a man who knows and loves this land and people which he will rule. Do I not study men all my days? Said Eldarion. I can lead and govern them. As I will say rather some men of like mind. With yourself, answered the king, there are also women in Numenor scarce fewer than men. And. And save your mother, whom indeed you can lead as you will. What do you know of them? Yet one day you must take a wife. One day, said Eldarion, but not before. I must. And later, if any try to thrust me towards marriage. Other things I have to do more urgent to me, for my mind is bent on them. Cold is the life of a mariner's wife. And the mariner, who is single of purpose and not tied to the shore, goes further and learns better how to deal with the sea. Further, but not with more profit, said Medeldur. And you do not deal with the sea, Aldarien, my son. Do you forget that the Edain dwell here under the grace of the lords of the west, that Oannen is kind to us and Osse is restrained. Our ships are guarded and other hands guide them than ours. So be not over proud, or the grace may wane. And then we're going to skip a little bit again, because we must. He spoke no more to his father of such matters, but passed his days upon the ship Eambar in the company of the Venturers and in the building of a vessel greater than any made before that ship he named Pelaran the Far Wanderer. Yet now he met Arundus often. Often. And that was by contrivance of the queen and the king, learning of their meetings felt disquiet. Yet he was not displeased. It would be more kind to cure Eldarion of his restlessness, said he, before he win the heart of any woman. How else will you cure him, if not by love? Said the queen. Arendus is yet young, said Meneldur. But Harmari and End, answered the kin of Arrandis, have not the length of life that is granted to the descendants of Elros. And her heart is already one.

[Sara Brown]

Oops.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah, yeah. Can't unring the bell.

[Sara Brown]

You can't, can you? Yeah, yeah. So we've just had another time jump. It's now 813 of the second age. Ardarion is 113. Arendus is 42. But again, thanks to the Numenorean aging, that's roughly. Roughly 39 and 24. So again, not too terrible. It's important, actually, that we keep tracking all of these different ages as they move through, because you'll see how for Arendis, this becomes much more of a problem.

[Alan Sisto]

Much.

[Sara Brown]

She gets older to a point where it's starting to push into the end of her eux. Yeah, and this is going to be a real big problem. And we'll come back to this in a bit more detail at the end of the reading, where Queen Almarion makes a point about her age.

[Alan Sisto]

And a very good point at that. So Eldarion comes back this time with wealth and precious metals. And while that just sounds like ordinary wealth to us, it is a bit more than that for Numenor. Don and I talked about this last year in episode 345, where we were covering a description of the island of Numenor. There we learned that the Edain, when they sailed to Numenor, were not able to bring much in the way of materials with them when they initially sailed to the land of Gift.

[Andrew Koons]

Yep.

[Sara Brown]

And we read there that for long all metals in Numenor were precious. Metals. They brought with them many treasures of gold and silver and gems also. But they did not find these things in Numenor.

[Alan Sisto]

Exactly.

[Sara Brown]

That's important.

[Alan Sisto]

That's very important. And right after that, the text drives the point home even more clearly of the elves of Eressia. In the days of their friendship, they had at times gifts of gold and silver and jewels. Jewels. But such things were rare and prized in all the earlier centuries, until the power of the kings was spread to the coast of the east. And obviously that power is about to grow, but it hasn't grown yet. So gold and silver and jewels are at this point still very rare and prized.

[Sara Brown]

Which is interesting, isn't it, when you think about how this is the land of gift and we make assumptions about just how, you know, wonderful their life is. But it's wonderful not because they have all of the gold and the jewels and the stuff. It's because of the beauty of new and the peace that's there.

[Alan Sisto]

Oh, and we'll get to some of that. We'll get to that stark contrast, actually, later. They don't have a lot of ore. They don't have a lot of. They don't even have a lot of iron. Like that text said. All metals are precious metals, and we're going to get to what they do have. And it's. It's the things that grow rather than the things that are found in the earth.

[Sara Brown]

But, yeah, and now, knowing all of this about the rarity of precious metals in Numenor, that makes Maneldo's response all the more significant. Right? It's really understandable. What he says is all of this wealth from Middle Earth and even news from there is of less worth than your presence would have been.

[Alan Sisto]

I love that.

[Sara Brown]

That's heartbreaking.

[Alan Sisto]

He's so wise here about this look, this good and all, but that's the job of others. This is the job of merchants and explorers. I don't know, say, maybe this guild of venturers that could be sailing under somebody else's authority and doing this kind of thing. This ought not to be your job.

[Sara Brown]

Right?

[Alan Sisto]

And I really like Meneldor's humility here. What's the point of all this gold and silver except for pride? I mean, sure, we can make silver goblets, you know, to drink wine while we're here at court, but iron or wood would work just as well.

[Sara Brown]

Yeah.

[Alan Sisto]

We don't have to have this silver and gold. Your job, son. You're going to be the king. Your job is to know and love Numenor. And its people. Because your job is going to be to lead them.

[Sara Brown]

Right.

[Alan Sisto]

And he is singularly focused on this and has been really sincere since Eldarion was young.

[Sara Brown]

Right. And isn't it interesting that what we're seeing here is yet more emphasis on the difference in the pride of Aldarion and the lack of pride, the humility of Meneldor, who has zero interest in all of these riches because other things are far more important to him. Whereas we know that Aldarion is extremely prideful. So perhaps it's no surprise that then that he is attracted to the gaining of gold and silver and jewels and stuff.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah. I mean, that's going to make him popular among his men, you know.

[Sara Brown]

Oh, yes, absolutely.

[Alan Sisto]

Bringing home treasure. Yeah.

[Sara Brown]

Yeah. And Aldarion seems to think that since he captains a bunch of young adventurers, he is capable of leading. I'm not convinced that what he's doing is leading in the sense of the ruling that a king needs to do.

[Alan Sisto]

No, not that kind of leading. I mean, it's, there's some. Right. I mean there's, there's, there's some parallels, but.

[Sara Brown]

Yeah, but I mean, in a way that makes sense. Leadership is leadership. But leading a group of men who already think pretty much the same as you is one thing. And not only that, they almost worship him. Yeah, right. As you said, it's a cult of personality. To them, he is. Oh, Captain Mike. Love him. Yeah. Now leading a nation made of men and women. And I really, really like that Manelda made that point because it's so important.

[Alan Sisto]

Half the people here are women, dude.

[Sara Brown]

Yeah. And many of them are not going to be like minded.

[Alan Sisto]

No.

[Sara Brown]

Especially as we know that the women are not as attracted to being out on the ocean as the men.

[Alan Sisto]

Exactly. Yeah, we've been told that already.

[Sara Brown]

So this is something else entirely. He is not as Aldarion is. I don't know if he's deceiving himself or if he genuinely thinks that this is preparing himself for leadership in, in a kingly role, but. Nah, it's.

[Alan Sisto]

He thinks so. But Minelder's like, you've got, you've got a lot more learning to do about leadership than just running a bunch of. Basically being the president of a fraternity is what you are, and it's just not that impressive. I also notice, you know, you mentioned Mineldor pointing out half the people on this island are women, son. But I also noticed that Mineldor isn't blind to Aldarion's manipulation of his mom. Like your mother Whom indeed you can lead as you will.

[Sara Brown]

Oh, yeah.

[Alan Sisto]

That, I think, comes back to what we talked about earlier. It's not just if to some extent El Marion is saying, oh, you know, he's my son, he can do no wrong, it's because Eldarion has manipulated her and he's got her in his back pocket. Basically. You can always make the Queen do what I want her to do. Yeah.

[Sara Brown]

Yes. That's what you get with a boy, Mom. I mean, all of this almost inevitably leads to Minelda's reminder to Aeldarion that he must someday marry.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah.

[Sara Brown]

Because he's going to need an heir and a spare after all.

[Alan Sisto]

That's right. Aldaria knows There may come a day when the sea dries up and the wind no longer drives the sails.

[Sara Brown]

Oh Lord.

[Alan Sisto]

There may come a day when the strength of mariners fail and we must reluctantly take wise. But it is not this day. It is not this day.

[Sara Brown]

This day we sail.

[Alan Sisto]

That's right. This day we sail for the Guild.

[Sara Brown]

Oh, good grief. Note how he not so subtly says that if you keep talking about me getting married, I'm going to delay it even further.

[Alan Sisto]

I mean.

[Sara Brown]

Oh, for goodness sake. Talk about stomping around and having a toddler tantrum.

[Alan Sisto]

Seriously.

[Sara Brown]

Actually, that's a really teenager thing to do, isn't it?

[Alan Sisto]

It is. It is. I have a 13 year old son and I don't even think he would do that.

[Sara Brown]

No. He says he has other priorities. He says my mind is bent on them. And just last week when we first met him, we read that he was ever more bent on his own will.

[Alan Sisto]

I don't think bent's a good word here.

[Sara Brown]

Yeah.

[Alan Sisto]

Do you?

[Sara Brown]

Yes.

[Alan Sisto]

I don't.

[Sara Brown]

Yeah. Well, the idea of bending something, though, of twisting it to make it what you want it to be, and feeling like this is something either you have to do or only you can do. But yeah, his priorities are not good priorities.

[Alan Sisto]

No. And then he quotes what. What has to be a known proverb. I sort of like this. This idea that there's some sort of history about mariners here in Numenor enough that he can quote this rhyme about. Cold is the life of a mariner's wife. And he argues that instead, being single would enable a mariner to go further and, quote, learn how to deal with the sea. Oh, boy. Deal with the sea.

[Sara Brown]

Deal with the sea. Yes. Yeah. Al Doran just has zero interest in being married. He's got zero interest in producing heirs. He just wants to do what he wants to do. And there's a real selfish streak to him here.

[Alan Sisto]

There is. Yeah, it really is. Yeah.

[Sara Brown]

And Minelda's response here is spectacular.

[Alan Sisto]

It is, isn't it?

[Sara Brown]

He first quickly addresses and sidesteps the bit about going further. I mean, fine, you can go further if you're single, but to what end? But it's his reply to how to deal with the sea that I think is absolutely fantastic here.

[Alan Sisto]

It really is. And it gets us back to that bigger picture. I mean, the sea isn't something you're ever going to have mastery over. Not ever.

[Sara Brown]

Right?

[Alan Sisto]

We live here under the grace of the Valar. This place is the land of gifts. Oannen is good to us, restraining the anger and wildness of Osse. And I love this line in particular. Our ships are guarded and other hands guide them than ours. This isn't just some sort of passive shield. This is an active protection. He's trying to get Eldarion to understand this reliance on the Valar and on the Maiar Ooannin and Ose requires us to not become overproud. And you and I mentioned last week how the pride leads to the hubris, right? That pride isn't on its own always, every single time a bad thing, but that it can lead to hubris. And that made me think the hubris thing plus over proud put me in mind of the word that Tolkien used in the homecoming of Beortnath, Beorthel's son. Over mode, which was absolutely fatal in the case of Beornath, and got most of his men killed too, for that matter. And that's the problem. That's where Eldarion is at. He's not just prideful, he's got overmode.

[Sara Brown]

Right. And that it may not lead to the death of all of his men, but it is going to lead to some serious consequences.

[Alan Sisto]

Very serious consequences.

[Andrew Koons]

No doubt.

[Sara Brown]

Now, we skipped the next little bit of their chat. But it's not just about having humility in dealing with the sea. It's about showing restraint, too. In other words, don't assume that the same protection is going to apply if you do dumb things.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah, it's pretty much a fafo moment right there. Tell Eldarion the family friendly.

[Sara Brown]

Can you imagine how grumpy and stompy Aldarion is at this moment? I mean, he is the greatest Mariner, and Daddy is telling me that actually, I'm not doing this very well.

[Alan Sisto]

You're not as great as you think you are.

[Sara Brown]

Yeah, and Eldarion's comeback to this is what's the point of that grave if we can't sail anywhere new and see things no one else has seen.

[Alan Sisto]

You know, the thing is, there's some validity to that question. There really is. I mean, you know, his objective is to, like we talked about earlier, with technology and building bigger ships and things, go further, do more. Okay. What is the point of. Of Oohanin's protection and of living under the grace of the Valor if we can't do more? But boy, is this also a foreshadowing of the Shadow itself descending on Numenor.

[Sara Brown]

Yes.

[Alan Sisto]

The idea of what is the point of our longer lives if we can't also be like the elves? What is the point of living here if we can't go over there?

[Sara Brown]

Right.

[Alan Sisto]

This is not accepting your place, the limitations that you have on you. And like I said, there's the validity to it, but boy, it is foreshadowing as as much it.

[Sara Brown]

It is. And you know what? I think we're coming close to an answer to your question about why this story. Why is this one recorded? Yeah, because there's so much foreshadowing here for all the things that will eventually bring Numenor down. It's the start. It's right here. And it's only. Yeah, it's only partly into its history.

[Alan Sisto]

700, 800 years in.

[Sara Brown]

Yeah, exactly. But here I think is we really do have. Have the beginnings of the downfall of Numenor. They are the little seeds of that are right here.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah, absolutely.

[Sara Brown]

Yep. So the, the conversation just stops. Yeah, he stops talking about it all together and. Yeah, it's a mock track where we picked back up.

[Alan Sisto]

Exactly. So that's when Eldarion retreats to his houseboat and frat bros deciding to build an even bigger boat, of course, because.

[Sara Brown]

You'Ve got to compensate, right?

[Alan Sisto]

Exactly. He builds the Paladin, which means Far Wanderer, like the text tells us, a little bit of word nerdery. The pal, of course, is the same element in Palantir, which means far sighted. And that ran element is wander, just like in Mithrandir, the Grey Wanderer. In the meantime, he meets Arrhendus more frequently thanks to his mom's interference. Thanks, mom. I like Mineldor's hesitation to this. Right. He's of two minds. Like, yeah, okay, that's not a bad idea, but. But I think it would be better if he would settle down before finding a wife. And I like the way he puts it because it would be more kind to cure him of this. First, he's thinking of hirendus and what sort of life she'd be getting herself into. I really like that. It shows a little bit of foresight.

[Sara Brown]

Yeah. We're told that he's wise.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. He's certainly ruling that way.

[Sara Brown]

This is real wisdom. And of course he's going to be proved right, isn't he?

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah, you're right, Will. It would definitely be more kind to cure him. And if you can't cure him, well, you know.

[Sara Brown]

Yeah, yeah. I mean, Al. Marian figures the best cure for that restlessness is the love of a woman.

[Alan Sisto]

Maybe for somebody else, but not for him. Like you pointed out. He just doesn't seem interested.

[Sara Brown]

No.

[Alan Sisto]

If he was motivated by that, then yeah, sure, maybe.

[Sara Brown]

But you've got to pick something someone's actually motivated by if it's going to stop them from doing something you don't want them to do. And here's where we get to the aging bit. Actually, at the end of the section you were reading, Manilda argues, argues that she's still young, therefore she can wait. But Omarion has a really good point. She says that the kin of Arrendis don't have the same lifespan of the descendants of Elros. So it's not. The time is not going to pass in exactly the same way for Aldarion or as it will for Arendis, and vice versa. And it's also too late on the win the heart thing, because, yeah, Erendis is already in love. Love. Well, she is, but Aeldarion isn't.

[Alan Sisto]

No. If I can borrow a proverb, that ship has already sailed.

[Sara Brown]

Oh, very good.

[Alan Sisto]

So let's go back to that aging bit in the Nature of Middle Earth. We told you we'd talk about this a little bit. We read there that the Numenoreans were not of uniform racial descent. Their main division was between the descendants of the House of Hador and the House of Beor. There were also a handful of people from the House of Had Haleth. And that's also how the Druidine got there. But that's a whole other story. We'll talk about that when we get to the Druidyne. These two groups, the text says originally had distinct languages and in general showed different physical characteristics. Each house had, moreover, numerous followers of mixed origin. The people of Beor were, on the whole, dark haired, though fair skinned, less tall and of less stalwart build. They were also less long. Long lived. That's so important.

[Sara Brown]

Yes. And not only are they less long lived than the House of Hador generally, but the line of Elros was given even longer lifespans. So actually the difference between Aldarion and Arendus is even greater just because of the house that she's descended from. Youth was said to be from about 25 to 125 for Numenoreans in general, but 25 to 200 in the line of Elros with vigor, whatever you want to define that as lasting to 175 and 300 respectively. And look how that gap grows.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah, the line of Elros gets a lot more.

[Sara Brown]

Yeah, yeah.

[Alan Sisto]

And. And you know, because she's of the House of Beor, it's even less than the standard Numenorean line.

[Sara Brown]

Right.

[Alan Sisto]

And she's pure blood. Right. So she's going to be even less the line about how each house had, moreover, numerous followers of mixed origin. So if you've got somebody who's part Beorian and part Hadorian, well, they're going to have a lifespan that's somewhere in between. Their vigor might last to, you know, 180, 170, 175, like the text says. But somebody who's Beorian purely is going to have a shorter lifespan than that. So while we might not be fans of Omarion's meddling in general, she is right to remind Menel Duo or that Arendus isn't going to have the typical Numenorean lifespan, let alone the lifespan of somebody in the line of Elros.

[Sara Brown]

Yep, indeed.

[Alan Sisto]

Plays a big difference. Hello, Finney. Did you think our story was over, Mr. Grammar? This Friday, you're dead. Dead is just a word. Critics are saying Ethan Hawke is pure nightmare fuel. Discover the secret behind the mask. What do you think happens when you die? It's time to find out. Black film 2 only in theaters Friday. Rated R under 17. Not admitted with that parent.

[Sara Brown]

When did making plans get this complicated? It's time to streamline with WhatsApp, the secure messaging app that brings the whole group together. Use polls to settle dinner plans, send event invites and pin messages so no one forgets mom 60th and never miss a meme or milestone. All protected with end to end encryption. It's time for WhatsApp message privately with everyone. Learn [e-mail] we told you about the amazing PPP community after our earlier break. If you're a part of that community and you want to enjoy something even more special, come join the fellowship of the podcast on Patreon. You get to be in the best discord community around. One that includes host hangouts and even live episode recordings.

[Alan Sisto]

That's right. And your support there is what enables me to work full time doing all of the shows the ppp, Today's Tolkien Time Times, Rings of Power Wrap up, and my streaming show the PPP Plays. When you join, you also get Episode Postscripts, ad free episodes, free Merch, and more.

[Sara Brown]

And you can join the Questions after Nightfall episodes or even appear as a guest in the north wing. Go to patreon.com prancingponypod to show your support and join the Fellowship of the Podcast.

[Alan Sisto]

And don't forget to rate and review on Apple Podcasts and Spotify. And please recommend us to your friends. Friends. You know you can do that directly on Spotify now. You can literally just share the show with your friends. In the meantime, Sarah, I want you to pick up because we're going to get to one of my favorite moments in this story here.

[Sara Brown]

Yes, I do love this bit. Okay, now when the great ship Palaran was built, Aldarion would depart once more. At this Meneldor became wrathful, though by the persuasions of the Queen he would not use the king's power to stay him. Here must be told of the custom that when a ship departed from Numenor over the great sea to Middle Earth, a woman, most often of the captain's kin, should set upon the vessel's prow the green bough of return, and that was cut from the tree Oyalare, that signifies ever summer, which the Eldar gave to the Numenoreans, saying that they set it upon their own ships in token of friendship with Osse and Uin. The leaves of that tree were evergreen, glossy and fragrant, and it throve upon sea air. But Meneldor forbade the queen and the sisters of Aldarion to bear the bough of Oilare to Romenna, where lay the Palaran, saying that he refused his blessing to his son, who was venturing forth against his will. And Aldarion, hearing this, said, if I must go without blessing or bow, then so I will go. Go then. The queen was grieved, but Arendis said to her, if you will cut the bough from the elven tree, I will bear it to the haven by your leave, for the King has not forbidden it to me. The mariners thought it an ill thing that the captain should depart thus but when all was made ready, and men prepared to weigh anchor, Arendus came there. Little though she loved the noise and bustle of the great harbour, and the crying of the gull, Charles Aldarion greeted her with amazement and joy, and she Said, I have brought you the Bow of Return, Lord. From the Queen. From the Queen, said Aldarion in a changed manner. Yes, Lord, said she, but I asked for her leave to do so. Others beside your own kin will rejoice at your return as soon as may be. At that time, Aldarion first looked on Arendys with love. Love. And he stood long in the stern, looking back as the Palaran passed out to sea.

[Alan Sisto]

Wow. Wow. Okay. As we often say, there's a lot to unpack here. The notes at the end of the story tell us that this next journey took place three years after he returned from his last one. So this is second, age 8, 16. And Mineldur is fuming.

[Sara Brown]

Oh, yeah.

[Alan Sisto]

Aldarion's not taking his advice. And he isn't exactly acting like the king's heir. I just keep coming back to that line. The need is for a man who knows and loves this land and people.

[Sara Brown]

Yes. And he is not fulfilling that. Instead of forbidden him to go, he gives in again to Almarian's request. Yeah, he could put his foot down.

[Alan Sisto]

He could. And he eventually will at the very end of this section. But why is it. Is it just trying to keep the peace? You know, a little bit of, pick your battles, man, pick your battles. But should he have picked this battle?

[Sara Brown]

Yes, I think he should.

[Alan Sisto]

I think he should have. It's his job as king. Because he's king even before he's just, you know, the husband or the dad role. King is the most important role that he's got.

[Sara Brown]

He has a duty. Aldarion has a duty. And actually Mineldor is kind of shirking his own duty here.

[Alan Sisto]

He's taking the easy way out, and I feel like he needs to just stand up. And he finally does. But by that point. Point, it's arguably too late.

[Sara Brown]

Way too late.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah.

[Sara Brown]

The narrative here stops telling the story and instead puts us right into exposition or backstory mode.

[Alan Sisto]

It does.

[Sara Brown]

Yeah. It's interesting that he doesn't try to put this explanation in the voice of a character, but he just does it as an aside to the reader here must be told.

[Alan Sisto]

It is very different from, I mean, like in the Lord of the Rings, you would expect Pippin to ask Gandalf a question, you know, or something like that, so that the story can be told of, oh, well, this green bowel returning is because of this and that and blah, blah, blah. And instead we have just the narrative telling us. And it reminds me of what we talked about last week, that a lot of times Tolkien would tell these stories more like entries in an Annel.

[Sara Brown]

Yes.

[Alan Sisto]

And that only every once in a while would he then expand. But when he expanded, he'd expand forever sometimes. And I feel like this is one of those moments peeking through where when it's a chronology or an Annel, he's like, oh, and by the way, this is here because of this. Yeah.

[Sara Brown]

And what we get is details of a beautiful and meaningful ceremony. The green bow of return placed on the ship's prow by a woman from the family of the captain.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah. Usually, certainly at least when possible. The footnote here reads very simply, very shortly on the tree oil. See the description of Numenor. Can I just tell you, that is a deeply inadequate footnote. So we are going to remedy that by reading that portion of the chapter, because I got to say, say it is beautiful. We talked earlier about the resources that Numenor has. It may not be silver and gold, it may not even be iron. It is this. At the center of the Bay of Eldana was the most beautiful of all the havens of Numenor Eldolande the green. And hither in the earlier days, the swift white ships of the Eldar of Eressia came most often all about that place, place. Up the seaward slopes and far into the land grew the evergreen and fragrant trees that they brought out of the west. And so throve there that the Eldar said that almost it was fair as a haven in Eressia they were the greatest delight of Numenor. And they were remembered in many songs long after they had perished forever. For few ever flowered east of the land of Gift. Olayre and Lyrolost, Nessamelda, Vardariana, Taniquelasse and Yavanna Mire, with its globed and scarlet fruits, flower, leaf and rind of those trees exuded sweet scents. And all that country was full of blended fragrance. Therefore it was called Nismaldar, the fragrant trees. Many of them were planted and grew, though far less abundantly in other regions of numerous. But only here grew the mighty golden tree Malinorne, reaching, after five centuries, a height scarce less than it achieved in Aresia itself.

[Sara Brown]

Well, now I know where I want to go on holiday.

[Alan Sisto]

I know there needs to be like a resort spa hotel here in Nissimaldar.

[Sara Brown]

It just sounds amazing.

[Alan Sisto]

They don't even have doors that close. You just have screens to keep the bugs out. But you can smell all night long the fragrance of the trees.

[Sara Brown]

It sounds absolutely gorgeous.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah.

[Sara Brown]

And of course that Malinorne tree is the mallorn. But that's a discussion for another time, right?

[Alan Sisto]

It is indeed.

[Sara Brown]

Yeah. But we just wanted to bring in the beauty of the oyo lyre and the other fragrant trees that made this place so wonderful. And also because Alan just won't stop reading Quenya.

[Alan Sisto]

Well, there is that. That's true. So, back to the text. Just like the tree itself, this Greenbao tradition also came from the Eldar. Right. We're told that they put this oyolaire on their ships to signify their friendship with the Maiar, Osse and Uinen. But while Meneldur at this point will not forbid Aldarien to go, he absolutely is like, you know what? I can't stop you, but I'm not going to bless you. You're doing this against my will. You go with no blessing.

[Sara Brown]

Oh. I mean, this is just. It's kind of awful, really, isn't it?

[Alan Sisto]

Just don't just forbid him to go if you're gonna do that, you know?

[Sara Brown]

Yeah, yeah. I mean, word of this comes to Eldarion, who essentially doesn't seem to care. I mean, he's gonna go anyway. Yeah, well, yeah. I mean, not that a symbol of friendship with Ose and Uinen means anything to him.

[Alan Sisto]

No, no.

[Sara Brown]

I mean, after all, he's all about dealing with the sea. Right.

[Alan Sisto]

He doesn't care about their protection. He doesn't. He needs it. Yeah.

[Sara Brown]

Which. Oh, ridiculous. Ridiculous. Anybody who sails knows that you're not in charge of the sea, it's in charge of you. But anyway, the Queen isn't happy about this. She doesn't want her son going off without the Green Bow of Return. I mean, you'd want your son going with a blessing, because scary. He's here for. Yeah. Even if there's a nothing she can do about it.

[Alan Sisto]

No.

[Sara Brown]

And here's where Arenda seizes on an opportunity.

[Alan Sisto]

She's good at this.

[Sara Brown]

Yeah. She offers to take the Green Bow on her behalf because she hasn't been forbidden. And arguably, this is a great way to win points with the Queen and maybe Eldarion, but not so much with Ronaldo.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah. If he finds out you did this.

[Sara Brown]

Yeah.

[Alan Sisto]

I mean, he's. You're not going to be in trouble because he didn't forbid you. You made a good point, but that's a rather legalistic point that's sort of a missing the forest for the trees point. Really?

[Sara Brown]

Yeah, yeah. Yeah.

[Alan Sisto]

An aside, by the way. Arrendes calls Almarian Tarinia, and now I have to break out My word nerdery. Because even eldamo.org doesn't have the word listed like they're my go to. Oh, if I can't figure this out on my own, let me go to El Damo. I type in tarinha and nothing comes up. But it appears to be a Quenya compound composed of two fairly straightforward elements. One is tar, which is an obvious one that I think a lot of you will recognize. It's an honorific, usually indicating king or queen, like tar meneldur. But the inya element element is actually an earlier Quenya element that just means female from the etymologies in the 1930s. That's my hunch. I'm happy to be proven wrong by any Elvish word nerds out there. But that's sort of like my lady, right? I mean, he's. She's acknowledging Her Highness, right? Her. Her tar status or royal status, but. But acknowledging that she's a woman and not just a leader or a, you know, a high person. So it's just, you know, my lady.

[Sara Brown]

Yeah. Makes sense to me. Meanwhile, back at the palaran, the Guild Adventurers is not keen on flouting tradition because bad luck among sailors is definitely a thing.

[Alan Sisto]

Oh, yeah. Superstition, man.

[Sara Brown]

Oh, yeah. And it would be superstitious. Oh, no. I thought I could talk over the top of that, and it just didn't work. Sorry about that. That's enough.

[Alan Sisto]

It is enough. Definitely.

[Sara Brown]

It would be bad luck to sail without the green bar of tradition. Yeah, possibly. Mineldor hoped that this would be what kept Haldarion from leaving.

[Alan Sisto]

I don't think he really could have thought that. Did he really think, oh, well, if I withhold the blessing, he won't go?

[Sara Brown]

No. I mean, the sailors might be grumpy about it and worried about it, but if. Oh, Captain. My captain says we're going, they're going.

[Alan Sisto]

That's the thing. I mean, does he think that he's going to create a revolt among the sailors who are like, we are not going to go with you. Of course they're to going to go.

[Sara Brown]

Of course they are. Because never in the history of ever have people done really stupid things in following a cult of personality?

[Alan Sisto]

Never ever.

[Sara Brown]

No. Anyway, they were doing what they needed to do to set sail, getting ready to lift the anchor and head out. And then Arendis shows up.

[Alan Sisto]

I like what we're told immediately upon her arrival. She does not like it here. Hear the noise, the busyness and that awful annoying sound of the seagulls. Mine, Mine, mine, mine. You know. And of course, she doesn't like this. As we're going to learn later in the story, she is from a very different part of this island. She's from inland, a hilly country with rolling downs of grass. She prefers the bleating of sheep to the cry of the seagulls.

[Sara Brown]

Yeah. Yep.

[Alan Sisto]

So Eldarion is quite surprised, a little happy to see her as she brings the Bow of Return. Quote from the Queen. But Aldarion, he's. He's no dummy. He's reading between the lines a little bit. Is this really just from the Queen? So he. He presses Orendus a little bit and he gets his answer. Others will rejoice at your return as soon as may be.

[Sara Brown]

And for the first time, we're told Aeldarion looked on Arendys with love. Now, talk about a bit of a slow burn. It took him a little while, while. It's only been 16 years since they met. Yes.

[Alan Sisto]

This is what we call a slow burn. 16 years from meeting her to. Oh.

[Sara Brown]

Look, she's pretty.

[Alan Sisto]

I like her.

[Sara Brown]

Yeah. Notice that he. He hasn't paid real attention to her at all when she's in court. But. But here, first of all, she's kind of defying his father. And he likes that. She's brought the green Bow of Return.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah.

[Sara Brown]

Which he likes having. And because of this, he looks upon her with love. I don't know about you, but I'm not seeing this as a really good basis for a relationship.

[Alan Sisto]

No, it's. It's pretty shallow. It's pretty limited. It's pretty narrow focus. And. Yeah. 16 years since they met.

[Sara Brown]

Good Lord. My dude.

[Alan Sisto]

Seriously? And you think this is a long time?

[Sara Brown]

Oh, he ain't seen nothing yet.

[Alan Sisto]

Exactly. Oh, boy. Oh, boy.

[Sara Brown]

And then as he sets sail away from Numenor, I think this may be the first time he finds himself looking back.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah, I think there's some good symbolism there, there.

[Sara Brown]

Yeah, absolutely. So, shall we continue? Would you like to do the next reading?

[Alan Sisto]

I will indeed. It is said that he hastened his return and was gone less time than he had designed. And coming back, he brought gifts for the Queen and the ladies of her house. But the richest gift he brought for Orendus. And that was a diamond Cold now were the greetings between the king and his son. And Meneldur rebuked him, saying that such a gift was unbecoming in the king's heir. Unless it were a betrothal gift. And he demanded that Eldarion declare his mind in gratitude. I brought it, said he for a warm heart amid the coldness of others. Cold hearts may not kindle others to give them warmth at their goings and comings, said Meneldur. And again he urged Aldar to take thought of marriage, though he did not speak of Orendus. But Aldarien would have none of it, for he was ever and in every course the more opposed, as those about him urged it. And treating Orendis now with greater coolness, he determined to leave Numenor and further his designs in Vignalonde. Life on land was irksome to him, for aboard his ship. Ship he was subject to no other will. And the Venturers who accompanied him knew only love and admiration for the great captain. But now Meneldur forbade his going, and Aldarion, before the winter was fully gone, set sail with a fleet of seven ships and the greater part of the Venturers in defiance of the King. The Queen did not dare incor Meneldor's wrath. But at the night, a cloaked woman came to the haven bearing a bough, and she gave it into the hands of Eldarion, saying, this comes from the lady of the Westlands, for so they called Arendus and went away in the dark.

[Sara Brown]

Oh dear.

[Alan Sisto]

Oh dear, indeed, oh dear.

[Sara Brown]

In defiance of the king. I mean, obviously we'll get to that.

[Alan Sisto]

But like, it's gone from a slight rift to a full estrangement to now what will be called open rebellion. It's a. It's. It's full on. In defiance of the king. Oh, man.

[Sara Brown]

Okay, well, that was another relatively short reading, but. Oh my goodness, was that important? Especially for that growing rift between Minelda and Aldarion just gets worse and worse. It really does. This. This is. This is a complete, complete breaking down. Because you don't defy. He's not defying his father.

[Alan Sisto]

No, he's defying the king. Remember, he is the Lord of the Ships and Havens of Numenor. His job is to do this, but under the command of the king.

[Sara Brown]

Yeah. Oh, boy. And please note the way that Eldarion thinks about this conflict, because you'll see some of the exact same traits in how he deals with Orendus later on.

[Alan Sisto]

Oh, yeah. Yes, you will. There are a lot of similarities in the way he interacts with his father and in the way he interacts with Horrendous. Yes, it all comes down to that. He is the only one that matters. I mean, that's really what it absolutely boils down to in both of their relationships. Yeah, but it certainly shows up in, in similar ways.

[Sara Brown]

Yeah. In some ways he's like a spoiled child. He does not like to be thwarted, supported. He does not like to be told what to do. You know, he, he does not like to have anyone in opposition to him.

[Alan Sisto]

No.

[Sara Brown]

And when any of those things happen, he just gets what my, my Irish husband would describe as thran, as a donkey.

[Alan Sisto]

You know, I, I literally don't even know that word, but I can imagine. Exactly. I get it by context. Yeah, I get it by context.

[Sara Brown]

That's brilliant.

[Alan Sisto]

I love that. Well, the text here doesn't tell us the dates, but the notes afterward do. And so we'll tell you this voyage, his first in the Paladin was from second age 816 to 820. So three years after he came back from that seven year voyage, he goes out on another four year trip. So in the 95 years since he has become full grown, he's likely been at sea more than he's been at Numenor. We don't know for sure because we don't have specific details about the length or even the number of the sailings between 750 and 800. But he has been gone a lot.

[Sara Brown]

It's really noticeable that the further we get into the story, the more the narrator gives us the details of how long Aldarion is away and how often. Because it's such a central part to the story, isn't it?

[Alan Sisto]

It just gets worse and worse. Yeah.

[Sara Brown]

Oh yeah. I mean, he comes back sooner than he'd originally planned.

[Alan Sisto]

So another seven year voyage maybe is what he'd originally thought.

[Sara Brown]

Yeah. I mean for him, I mean, is three years like a two week vacation? Who knows? I mean, it's seemingly out of possible love for Arrendis. I'm still not entirely sold on that. He brings gifts for his mom and all the ladies of her house, but it looks like that's all a cover. So he can give a really rich gift to Arendis.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah. I mean if he came back with just a gift for Arendes, that's not going to look good. So he comes back with a gift for his mom and for all the ladies of the. Of the Queen's house household, which includes horrendous. But. But Meneldor again, showing that he gets it. It's like, son, a big diamond is not an appropriate gift unless you're offering it as a betrothal gift.

[Sara Brown]

Right.

[Alan Sisto]

So you got to declare your intent. You've got to stop stringing her along, man. It took you 16 years to even admire her and you do. So only as you're leaving for four years, you come back with a diamond, you know you've won her heart.

[Sara Brown]

Heart.

[Alan Sisto]

This isn't. You don't need to do that.

[Sara Brown]

It's not fair.

[Alan Sisto]

It's totally unfair to her. Stop playing her.

[Sara Brown]

Yeah. And of course, Aldarian being Aldarian goes, oh, yes, dad, you're completely right. That was so wrong of.

[Alan Sisto]

No, wrong story for that. Yeah.

[Sara Brown]

Oh, boy. The brief dialogue back and forth as Aldarion seeks to insult his father. So the way I read this, actually, when Mineldor says cold hearts may not kindle others, to give them warmth at their comings and goings, I think he's saying that Aldaran heart is cold. I think that it's Aldarion that isn't actually being sensitive. He's not thinking about.

[Alan Sisto]

Makes more sense than the way I was thinking about this.

[Sara Brown]

Right. I mean, that if he has. If Aldarion has a cold heart, he's not going to warm the hearts of others.

[Alan Sisto]

Okay, I see. In other words, because you're so cold and so distant, and all you're focused on is the same. See, you're not exactly encouraging people to give you warmth. Nobody wants to be warm to you because you're not warm in return.

[Sara Brown]

Right. And there he is at their goings and comings, is the whole, yeah, you're going off and then you're coming back. And you're expecting us to be all, what, happy about that?

[Alan Sisto]

Exactly. We're supposed to drop everything about, ooh, you're home. Yay.

[Sara Brown]

The prodigal son returns. Yes. Kill the fatted calf, et cetera. And Minilda here is pointing out to Eldarion, I think, think that, you know, you've got to start thinking of other people and not just yourself. It's like we were saying earlier, there is a real selfish streak in Eldarion, and he really is. He thinks of himself here. I mean, back he comes with, oh, look, I've got this pretty diamond for you. Aren't I great? In the meantime, Arendus has been twiddling her freaking thumbs for four years.

[Alan Sisto]

Four years.

[Sara Brown]

Yeah. I mean, I would not be chuffed.

[Alan Sisto]

No, no, I can't imagine he would be. So an Elder reminds him, look. And he doesn't even mention her name. He just says, it's time to think about getting married. He's 120 years old now. Aldarian going back to Numenor aging in nature of Middle Earth. We read about Numenorean marriage that men typically didn't marry until they were at least 45. And then, quote, postponement of marriage to about the 95th year was very common and it was not seldom entered into as late as the 120th year. So in a way this isn't. I mean, it is time to think about it, but it isn't necessarily like now. You've got to or you're not going to. Because we also read there that for men in Elros's line of descent, quote, it might be as late as the 150th year or even later.

[Sara Brown]

Right. He's not on the shelf yet. No, but I don't. Yeah, I don't think Mineldor is. Is just anxious about. Hey, isn't it time you got married?

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah. Settle down.

[Sara Brown]

It's more about. Isn't it time you settled down?

[Alan Sisto]

Stop being away from the island.

[Sara Brown]

Yeah.

[Alan Sisto]

Start being here where you are going to be king.

[Sara Brown]

Yes. Yeah. And it's not really about Eldarion's age, is it? It's much more to do with Arendys.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah. Meneldor gets that now, doesn't he? Yeah.

[Sara Brown]

Especially now that Minilda understands her lifespan better. She's now 49. 9. And most Numenorean women married between the ages of 40 and 45. Although marriage wasn't considered unduly delayed, it says in the text, until beyond her 95th year. Wow. I know. At that point I'd be so over the whole idea of men, but there you are. But for a Numenorean woman, that is about equivalent to our 35. But let's go back to what you said earlier for Erendis. That might be for the average Numenorean woman.

[Alan Sisto]

Right.

[Sara Brown]

Erendis lifespan is shorter still.

[Alan Sisto]

That's a very good point. So beyond her 95th year would be equivalent to a typical Numenorean woman being 35. It might be equivalent to her being closer to 40.

[Sara Brown]

Yes.

[Alan Sisto]

And certainly she's only going to live to be a little bit more than half of his age.

[Sara Brown]

Yeah. By that point I am definitely getting my own house in a lot of cases.

[Alan Sisto]

Caps.

[Sara Brown]

Cuz. What the heck.

[Alan Sisto]

Make you. Make you wait till you're 95. And here's the sad thing, right? She's 49 right now. I'm just going to drop a spoiler right here. Arrandis will have to wait a lot longer. Oh yeah, and here's your spoiler. Her marriage is unduly delayed. Honestly, that man standard Numenorean counts. Yeah.

[Sara Brown]

Now we see a huge example of aeldarion's stubbornness right here. The text says he would have none of of it, for he was ever and in every course the more opposed as those about him urged it. I mean, tell me you're a toddler without telling me you're a toddler. Seriously, he's just sticking in his heels for no other reason than because others suggest he should consider it. I mean, for goodness sake, the man needs a slap. Yeah, yeah. I mean, even though he brought Arendis a huge diamond and even though he came back early, possibly probably because of her, now because he's an ass, he starts treating Horrendous with greater coolness. Oh, wonderful. Make her suffer because you're mad at your dad. Oh, so many red flags. So many red flags.

[Alan Sisto]

So many. Fix your stuff before you try to have this relationship.

[Sara Brown]

Right, right.

[Alan Sisto]

And I love this. Life is irksome. Life on land is irksome. So life is annoying to him. But why? Look at the reasons why and you're going to start to see this character of Eldarion come into shape. When he's on his ship, he doesn't have to listen to anyone. No king to boss him around, no mom to maneuver him. No horrendous even. And when he's on his ship, he's surrounded by a bunch of people who worship the ground he walks on. And that is what he wants. He wants full autonomy with zero authority or responsibility and only hero worship from beneath. That's what he wants.

[Sara Brown]

What a great king he's going to make.

[Alan Sisto]

Oh my gosh. I know. Like, just, just. I mean, look, we've said this last week. We'll say it again prayet say it every week. He does some good things. Is the establishment of the relationships with. With Kiradan and Gil Galad are crucial. Crucial for saving Middle Earth. And it's so good that he did this, but wow. Yeah, he could have been a better person for sure.

[Sara Brown]

Yeah. I mean, I think there's some real personality flaws here. Said she gently.

[Alan Sisto]

Said she gently. Oh, I love that. That's a good one.

[Sara Brown]

Yes. I mean the full bullet point list of all the things that make Aeldarion a really poor choice as heir to the character King. Right here. Right here.

[Alan Sisto]

I mean, forget about our relationship with Horrendous. This is just not good people. Period.

[Sara Brown]

Yeah.

[Alan Sisto]

I mean, the fact that he is unwilling to listen to anybody who, like you said, opposes him. Right. Opposition makes him freak out. He absolutely loses his stuff when somebody tells him he might be wrong. That's why he likes it at sea. Not Just because he likes the ocean or the salt air or whatever. But because. Because he doesn't have to listen to anybody.

[Sara Brown]

Yep. And he wants to be where everybody thinks he's wonderful.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah.

[Sara Brown]

And nobody questions him. Nobody gainsay him. Everybody looks to him for every single decision.

[Alan Sisto]

He can literally do no wrong.

[Sara Brown]

I know.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah.

[Sara Brown]

Yeah. But I mean this time. Oh boy. I mean, talk about a full rift. Minelder himself is, to quote Aldaron, having nothing of it.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah.

[Sara Brown]

And he forbids Aldarion from leaving. Finally puts his foot down. And it's about 50 years too late. And does that stop Aldarion? I mean. Of course it doesn't stop Aldarion. He leaves with a full fleet of seven ships and the majority of the Guild in open defiance of his father, the king. Now think about this. Think about the. What he's telling his men. What he's actually showing. The example he sets setting is open rebellion. I will do as I please.

[Alan Sisto]

These guys are willing to disobey their king too. As a result of this. Which I'm sorry if I'm. If I'm Aldarian. I don't necessarily want people following me who have proven a willingness to totally disregard authority. I'm going to be your king one day. I'd like to think that you'll follow my rule.

[Sara Brown]

Yeah.

[Alan Sisto]

Even if you don't like. Like it.

[Sara Brown]

It's. It's the thing though, isn't it? What somebody has done to one person, they are quite likely to do to somebody else. So I wouldn't want to encourage that kind of rebellious behavior.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah. And more than half. I mean, the greater number of the Guild adventures.

[Sara Brown]

That's really, really, really bad.

[Alan Sisto]

That is telling. Yeah.

[Sara Brown]

Even boy Mom.

[Andrew Koons]

Al.

[Sara Brown]

Marian is not happy with the situation. But she's not going to risk the same open defiance. She doesn't send the Green Bough via someone else this time.

[Alan Sisto]

No. Instead we get this mystery moment right. The Green Bough is sent on earendus behalf by some anonymous woman showing up at night. I've got to ask. Is this the queen herself using Erendis as a cover? Or is this Erendis herself? Who is this cloaked woman? Who is this masked man? Tune in next week to find out. No. We will never know.

[Sara Brown]

No. So I've always read it as being horrendous.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah.

[Sara Brown]

That it's horrendous. But of. Of course we have no idea if it really.

[Alan Sisto]

She would have had a conversation with the Queen. Like I'm going to do this again. I do think it's Interesting. We've seen now, you know, the. The green bow has gone from the queen has sent this through Aendus to now Arrendus is sending it through Aendus perhaps, But, you know, it's now. The queen's not sending it.

[Sara Brown]

Mm.

[Alan Sisto]

We're gonna see next week that he sails without it altogether.

[Sara Brown]

Yeah.

[Alan Sisto]

And this sort of gradual reduction in the blessing is, I think, really symbolic of the continual. Because what is one of the things that we always see in Tolkien, People making stupid choices get opportunities to turn it around.

[Sara Brown]

Yes.

[Alan Sisto]

They're given usually lots of opportunities.

[Sara Brown]

It's about choice, isn't it?

[Alan Sisto]

It is about choice. It is about. About. Okay, we've told you. No, no, no. We've really told you. I mean, whether we're going back. We go all the way back to Feanor and the doom of the Noldor in the North. We could talk about Saruman and the chances that Gandalf gave him when he was imprisoned at Isengard. We could talk about Boromir and his immediate regret and how he turned that around and was like, yeah, I'm doing the right thing now.

[Sara Brown]

So redemption is possible.

[Alan Sisto]

Redemption is possible. To make the right choice, you got to act that way. And so here's he's just given choice or opportunity after opportunity after opportunity, but he continues to repeat these choices. Man, I tell you. So at night, a cloaked woman came to the podcast bearing a mailbag, and she gave it into the hands of, well, me saying, this comes from Barlam and Butterbur and went away in the dark. Sarah was that cloaked. Who was that cloaked woman? And what did Barlow and bring for us today?

[Sara Brown]

Okay, so here is a great question. Actually. Actually, the question is this. Both Aldarion and Rendis make choices prioritizing their individual desires and principles. To what extent should personal fulfilment be sacrificed for duty to family, kingdom, or greater good? Is either character's position more justifiable? I think that's a really interesting question, because if that is horrendous at the end, cloaked and hooded good, then she is also defying the king.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah, she is.

[Sara Brown]

So, but to what extent should we. I mean, this. This could be about Aldario rendezvous, but also in general, to what extent should personal fulfillment be sacrificed for duty?

[Alan Sisto]

I would say in an inverse relationship to the level of duty.

[Sara Brown]

Yes.

[Alan Sisto]

I think that the more duty you have, the less freedom you have to allow that personal freedom to subsume it. I mean, like, Arrendus has more right to exercise that right. Now than Aldarion, who actually has a tiny bit more than Mineldor. Like, Mineldor has none. Right. And he shows that he's okay with that. But yeah, I think it's an inverse relationship to the level of authority and responsibility and duty. And I feel like that is a good question. It's also a question that I think we could ask at so many moments in the legend. Legendarium.

[Sara Brown]

Yes.

[Alan Sisto]

Tolkien is very good at. At throwing those two into conflict. I'm thinking Denethor. I'm thinking even. There's so many moments. Faramir, Boromir, Baragon. Baragon for sure. There's so many at Baragond, man. I mean, that's the. The perfect one. There's so many moments Hama, you know, the door warden at Medicelled.

[Sara Brown]

Yeah.

[Alan Sisto]

Where, you know, when do you say it's all right to exercise this personal choice rather than, you know, be obligated to duty? Amer as well. I mean, there's so many moments.

[Sara Brown]

There is so many. But I think you're right to say that it's in inverse proportion to the size of the duty. I mean, if you have that level of duty, with that has probably come great privilege. Privilege.

[Alan Sisto]

Oh, yeah, of course.

[Sara Brown]

So, yeah, if you want what privilege brings you, then the opposite side to that is duty. It's a bit like, yeah, there is such a thing as freedom of speech, but there are also consequences to what you say.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah.

[Sara Brown]

So if you want freedom of speech, you also have to be mindful of what it is that you are saying and what the consequences might be. So you always have a balance. And that's another thing Tolkien's very good at. Right.

[Alan Sisto]

Is balance. Balance.

[Sara Brown]

And here the balance is that Aldarion's duty is heavily weighted and what he is doing on the other side of that is not balancing it out.

[Alan Sisto]

Absolutely right. And it does sort of change slightly the light in which we evaluate both Aldarian and Erendis going forward, at least until. Until horrendous bears and Calumet. Because at that point she has a duty that is greater than a whole different duty. Prior.

[Sara Brown]

Yeah, yeah. You choose to bring a child into the world. Oh, boy. Do you have a duty?

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah, and it's a long. It's not even a duty for like a week or a month.

[Sara Brown]

You know, it's a never stopping, never ending duty.

[Alan Sisto]

The never ending story. Yeah. And. And that. So it's like Aldarian, we can look at from the beginning and say you have an obligation and a duty. From the get go. And it becomes Greater when you're 100 and you're declared the king's heir. And it becomes even greater when you ascend to the throne, when you take the scepter, when your father resigns the scepter early as we'll see. So his duty is always higher and never gets less. Her starts out lower but then has to increase much more dramatically when Ankalameh is born.

[Sara Brown]

Yes.

[Alan Sisto]

And I think we'll see, you know, we rightly bash Aldarion right now because he is not living up to his obligations. Now it's going to be a while before we bash Arrendus.

[Sara Brown]

Yeah.

[Alan Sisto]

But when I say trust me, we'll.

[Sara Brown]

She's not done anything terrible. She's made.

[Alan Sisto]

Foolish maybe.

[Sara Brown]

Yeah, foolish. That's different.

[Alan Sisto]

So far her choices are only gonna hurt herself.

[Sara Brown]

Yeah, exactly. The choices she's making right now only hurt herself. But yes, as we get further into the story, it becomes obvious that actually it's going to be much more far reaching because she, you know, she is going to prioritize her own desires and principles and sacrifices her own daughter to them.

[Alan Sisto]

She really does.

[Sara Brown]

Does.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah.

[Sara Brown]

And that's something I find hard to forgive.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah. I mean it, it, it has an impact like we talked about last week. Ripples from her choices and her actions with an lead to problems for the kingdom for generations. Yep, yep.

[Sara Brown]

And they are responsible for that.

[Alan Sisto]

They? Absolutely.

[Sara Brown]

Both of them.

[Alan Sisto]

Both of them, yeah. And that's the thing. I mean it. His level of responsibility has always been high, so we don't necessarily really see it as getting any greater. Hers takes a big leap.

[Sara Brown]

Yes.

[Alan Sisto]

And, and so it's all of a sudden now she has an obligation that she didn't have before and.

[Sara Brown]

Yeah.

[Alan Sisto]

At least certainly in Tolkien's world. Because that's the thing, you know, we can talk about, you know, individual freedom and, you know, what you're going to do with your life and, and what responsibilities you bear to your children in the primary world and, and people can, can disagree and all of that. But, but Tolkien's worldview, you, as expressed in his legendarium, is very clear about what you owe to your kids and what you owe to your kingdom and what, you know, duty is huge.

[Sara Brown]

It is. He's very hot on that.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah, yeah. And it's going to be something. It's a very, very good question. Well folks, thank you for joining us for another episode of the Prancing Pony podcast. Please come back next week when that estrangement does in fact become open Rebellion.

[Sara Brown]

And that's just between the two of us, right?

[Alan Sisto]

Well played. Thank you. Oh, I know what to expect now. Yeah.

[Sara Brown]

So Alan and I want to thank the members of Team PPP editor Jordan Rannels Barleyman, Becca Davis, Social media manager Casey Hilsey, Event and Patreon community coordinator Katie McKenna, graphic artist Megan Collins, and website guru Phil Dean.

[Alan Sisto]

And please take a minute to check out the prancingponypodcast.com that's where you're gonna find show show notes, outtakes, ancient Prancing Pony ponderings. Someday there will be more. And we're changing vendors for our merch at the moment, but our online storefront should be back soon. You can get all sorts of cool PPP merch, including all of the amazing chapter art that Megan's been doing for us for more than three years.

[Sara Brown]

And we're all about the books here at Prancing Pony Podcast, so be sure to also visit our library page and we'll try to make sure that any book we've mentioned on the show is linked there for you you to purchase. We do get a small amount of compensation when you make your purchase, so thank you for that.

[Alan Sisto]

Indeed. We also want to thank our patrons at the Kirdan's contribution tier. I'll start with Demay in Alaska, Chad in Texas, Lance in New Jersey, Joseph in Michigan, Kathy from North Carolina, Brian in the uk, Jerry from Washington, Irwin from the Netherlands, Ben in Minnesota, Anthony in Texas, Zaksu in Illinois, Joshua in Massachusetts, Lucy in Texas, Erica in Texas, Vivian in California, and James in Massachusetts.

[Sara Brown]

Yep. And there's also Ann in Kentucky, Sean in New Jersey, Mason in California, Maureen from Massachusetts, Olivia in London, Robert in Arizona, Nick in Wisconsin, Lewis in South Carolina, Thomas in Germany, Craig in California, Kevin in Massachusetts, Bruce in California, Joe in Maryland, Scott in California, Jeffrey in Michigan, and Paul in Colorado. Thank you all so very much for your support.

[Alan Sisto]

Indeed. Thank you.

[Sara Brown]

Now, make sure you don't miss any episodes of the Prancing Pony Podcast. Subscribe now through Spotify, Apple Podcasts, Amazon Music, or your favorite podcast app.

[Alan Sisto]

And one last thing. As always, don't forget to send your thoughts, comments, and, well, most of all, your green bowser of return to barlaman@the prancingponypodcast.com Now, Barlaman does have a lot.

[Sara Brown]

Of mail to sort through though, so we'll try to get to you just as soon as we're able.

[Alan Sisto]

And hopefully he's not allergic to any sort of evergreens. As always, folks, this has been far too short a time to spend among such excellent and admirable listeners.

[Sara Brown]

But until next time, however, farewell, folks.

[Alan Sisto]

It.