386 – Got to Get You into My Life

Summary

The Prancing Pony Podcast

Episode 386: “Got to Get You into My Life”

Release Date: October 19, 2025
Hosts: Alan Sisto (“A”) and Sara Brown (“B”)

Episode Overview

In this episode, Alan and Sara continue their in-depth exploration of the tale of Aldarion and Erendis from Tolkien’s Unfinished Tales. They focus on Aldarion’s open rebellion, the consequences on Numenor’s shipbuilding and forestry, the fraught love story with Erendis, and the colonial impacts of Numenorean expansion in Middle-earth. The conversation weaves together close reading, philological analysis, Tolkien’s environmental themes, and sharp, self-effacing humor—making for an episode rich with insight, memorable quotes, and both laughter and sighs at these famously flawed characters.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Philology Fair Returns: Name Origins and Numenorean Festivals

[05:24–13:21]

• Aldarion / Anardil:

  • Anardil (“Friend of the Sun”), with Quenya roots: anar (“sun”) + ndil (“friend” or “lover”).
  • Aldarion likely means “Son of Trees” (aldar = “trees”).
  • Ironic, given Aldarion’s reputation as a shipwright “destroyer of trees.”

    “I’m finding it mildly ironic that he is son of Trees, given what he does to… trees.” – Sara [07:44]

• Erendis:

  • Name possibly from er (“alone”/“one”) + indis (“wife” or “bride”), together suggesting “Lonely Bride.”
  • Reflects her narrative arc, hinting at a somewhat prophetic or on-the-nose naming convention.

• Numenorean High Festivals:

  • Eruquerme (Spring), Eruhantalë (Autumn), Erulaitalë (Mid-year) dissected linguistically.
  • The uniqueness of terms like kirme and hantele, and the special Numenorean Quenya usage.

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2. Aldarion’s Rebellion & Meneldur’s Clampdown

[16:05–23:29]

• Context: Aldarion defies his father King Meneldur’s ban on voyages, returning to Numenor after five years to find his powers revoked and all ship-related industries shut down.
• Meneldur’s Response:

  “He takes away his iPhone, his TV, his car, his allowance, you know? Or in Second Age terms, he takes away his authority as Lord of the Ships and shuts down his frat house, Guild House.” – Alan [19:15]

• Reflection on Numenorean Society:
  • Sara points out the roots of future rebellion—Aldarion embodies a breakdown of royal authority that foreshadows Numenor’s fall.
  • King Meneldur’s delayed action against the Venturers’ Guild invites discussion: Could this have been prevented if stopped sooner?

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3. Open Conflict & Aldarion’s Drastic Reaction

[23:32–34:42]

• Aldarion’s Defiance: Instead of reconciliation, Aldarion returns to sea in defiance, with a leaner fleet and away from any female well-wishers—Meneldur strictly prohibits the traditional green bough send-off.
• Time Frame:
  • Five years at sea, returns with “nine ships” (two built in Middle-earth, filled with timber).
  • Leaves again almost immediately, this time for 14 years.
• Erendis’ Agency:
  • After ten years, believing Aldarion is lost or gone for good, she seeks leave from court and returns to her family—partly to escape “importuning suitors.”

    “What really caught my eye… was that note, she also left to escape the importuning of suitors. I love that word.” – Sara [31:41]

• Aldarion’s Immaturity

  “He’s 143 years old going on 13.” – Sara [63:29]

  • Both hosts emphasize the childish behaviors on both sides—his avoidance, her unwavering love for an absent man.

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4. Maritime Trouble, Deforestation, and the Plundered Port

[38:52–56:26]

• Aldarion’s Fateful Voyage:
  • Fourteen years abroad, battered by storms, losing his newly founded harbor of Vinyalonde (“New Haven”), which is destroyed and plundered (“by hostile men”).
  • Repeated “contrary winds”—the Valar’s protection waning as a portent.
• Colonialism and Deforestation:
  • Deep analysis of Appendix D from “The History of Galadriel and Celeborn”:
    • Aldarion’s “hunger for timber,” his colonial ambition, and the transformation of Numenor’s role from exploration to imperialism.

    “Hunger. Think about it—this is a devouring, consuming kind of desire.” – Sara [45:27]

    • The native peoples of Enedwaith and Minhiriath are displaced; their lands “denuded,” forests razed to supply Numenorean shipbuilding.

    “The devastation wrought by the Numenoreans was incalculable… The Gwathlo flowed through a land… a desert, treeless but untilled.” – Alan [54:42]

  • Environmental Themes: Echoes of Tolkien’s personal love for trees; Numenor cast as both gift and warning regarding power and environmental stewardship.

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5. The Broken Love Story: Aldarion & Erendis’ Impasse

[61:39–116:20]

• Reunion: After decades, Aldarion finally rides out, sees Erendis (mistakes her briefly for an Elf).

  “He took her for one of the Eldar who came at times to those parts of the island. But she approached, and he knew her for Erendis, and saw that the jewel was the one that he had given her.” [73:19]

  • He is finally “chastened,” apologizes sincerely and asks forgiveness.
• Erendis’ Caution:
  • She hesitates for the first time—her love “not lessened,” but experience has bred deep mistrust:

    “She feared now in her heart that in the war between herself and the sea, for the keeping of Aldarion, she would not conquer.” [73:19]

• Aldarion’s Most Contented Days:
  • For a brief period, he gives up his shipyard work, focuses on planting trees; only in later years does he realize these were his happiest.

    “He found more contentment in those days than in any others of his life, though he did not know it until he looked back long after, when old age was upon him.” [86:29] “Oh, that just—I mean, look, we should know contentment in the moment…It’s so sad to me that it takes Aldarion decades…before he realizes that was the time in my life I was most content.” – Alan [87:16]

• Major Communication Breakdown:
  • Erendis finally consents to a ship journey when Aldarion proposes it for a celebration, but conceals her distaste and fear—already setting a pattern of withheld communication.

    “Communication, communication. What we have here is a failure to communicate.” – Sara [91:53]

  • Later, in nearly comical fashion, neither truly listens to the other; both are stuck in pride and expectation.
• Shot–Countershot: The Argument in Emerië
  [98:58–115:11]
  • She asks Aldarion to see her home country, demonstrating how little he knows of his own land.
  • She refuses to “share” him with Uinen (the Sea), and he retorts rather unconvincingly:

    “Name any tree you love and it shall stand till it dies,”
    “I love all that grow in this isle.”

  • Sara calls this exchange “check and mate,” pointing out the classic non-communication, escalation, and failure of compromise.
• Hosts’ Take:
  • Both Aldarion and Erendis are deeply flawed, lacking self-knowledge and maturity.

    “There are moments of good in Aldarion and moments of good in Erendis. There are moments of foolishness in both of them.” – Alan [84:27]

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6. Reflections on Duty, Desire, and the Shadow on Numenor

[117:12–123:30]

• Barliman’s Question: How does Aldarion’s love for the sea conflict with his responsibilities to Numenor and his relationship with Erendis? What does this suggest about duty versus personal desire?
  • Sara: Aldarion’s rebellion undermines the monarchy and sets a precedent for the eventual Shadow; his actions model defiance not only to his father, but to the divinely appointed authority.
  • Alan: His love is not the issue; it’s his unwillingness to balance desire with responsibility, both in his public role and private relationships.

    “It’s not that loving the sea is a bad thing. You could love the sea and be perfectly fine as a king if you remember that your duty requires you to pay attention to the land.” – Alan [117:39]

  • Both agree: neither Aldarion nor Erendis fulfill the obligations of emotional maturity or honest partnership.

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• “You’re the lord of the ships and the havens and you do this. …There are consequences for your behavior, son.” – Sara [19:44]
• “Aliens: the ones who got the Land of Gift because they were the special ones. But with this, Tolkien is telling us that this is now the mindset of the people of Numenor.” – Sara [55:38]
• “Aldarion is totally the kind of person who would break up over text… Oh, you’re not wrong. He’d ghost and block.” – Alan & Sara [65:37]
• “Her heart has been won…she wants him and nobody else. And we’ve got to deal with that fact.” – Alan [33:11]
• “Check and mate.” – Alan [100:35], after Erendis’ devastating response to Aldarion’s empty promise.
• “What we have here is a failure to communicate.” – Alan [91:56] (paraphrasing Cool Hand Luke)
• “Defeat the sea utterly, or else be utterly defeated.” – [79:20] (key insight into Erendis’s worldview)

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Timestamps for Important Segments

• Philology Fair: Names & Festivals: [05:24–13:21]
• Aldarion’s Open Rebellion: [16:05–23:29]
• Erendis Leaves Numenor: [28:08–34:42]
• Deforestation & Colonialism Deep Dive: [42:05–56:26]
• Aldarion’s Return, Apology, and the Brief Contentment: [61:39–87:16]
• Failed Engagement: Argument in Emerië: [98:58–115:11]
• Barliman’s Mailbag – Duty vs. Desire: [117:12–123:30]

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Episode Tone & Style

• Knowledgeable, informal; full of puns, gentle ribbing, and pop-culture references (e.g., “Ghosting and blocking,” “Tar-Red Flag”)
• Honest engagement with the difficult personalities of the protagonists—empathy mixed with frequent exasperation (“He is 143 going on 13”)
• Strong historical and philological grounding
• Aimed at Tolkien deep-divers but accessible thanks to vivid explanations, humor, and pop-psych analysis

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Conclusion

This episode delivers an incisive, often hilarious, but ultimately tragic look at Aldarion and Erendis, balancing textual close reading, linguistic insight, and environmental commentary. Alan and Sara dig beneath the surface of one of Tolkien’s most psychologically nuanced tales, revealing how pride, poor communication, and the inability to reconcile duty with desire lead to both personal and societal downfall in Numenor.

Come back next time for more heartbreak, more hard lessons, and the next stage in this legendary (if frustrating) courtship.

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“There are moments of good in Aldarion and moments of good in Erendis. There are moments of foolishness in both of them.” – Alan [84:27]

Transcript

[A]

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[B]

True.

[A]

Actually, you can sell your car in minutes.

[B]

False.

[A]

That's gotta be true. Again, Carvana will pick up your car from your door, or you can drop it off at one of their car vending machines.

[B]

Sounds too good to be true. So true.

[A]

Finally caught on. Nice job. Honesty isn't just their policy, it's their entire model. Sell your car today to car. Pickup fees may apply. Good evening, little masters, and welcome to episode 386 of the Prancing Pony podcast, where Eldarion was gone long enough to be presumed dead twice over.

[B]

Well, is it any surprise Arendus went home to her family? Seriously, folks, pull up a bench in the common room and join us. I'm Sara Brown, the shield maiden of Rohan, and I'm here with the man of the west who has taken up the work of podcasting and being prudent in it, Alan Sisto.

[A]

Well, there will be more episodes in Numenor ere my day ends then. Yeah, that doesn't work. All right, folks, join us as Aldarion gets himself grounded. So he just decides to run away from home.

[B]

I was pretty sure that Aldarion was older than a teenager, but I think.

[A]

He'S older than a hundred, actually. Or he's getting close to 100 at that point.

[B]

Well, he's behaving like he's 13.

[A]

Seriously. And I should know. I have a 13 year old.

[B]

Yeah, and I bet he's better behaved than this.

[A]

Oh, much, much better. Yeah.

[B]

So no matter whether you came to Middle Earth through the books, the films, the TV show, or something else, each of you is welcome here in our common room. The Prancing Pony podcast continues in our 10th season of Reading and talking our way through Middle Earth with conversations, many digressions, and even Some speculations.

[A]

Yeah, pretty often. Now we also include a few puns and bad jokes here and there.

[B]

We mostly Alan.

[A]

Yeah, mostly. I'd say sorry, but I'm not. So our purpose, though, our main objective really is to just dive deep into the lore to discuss the story, our favorite characters and theme themes, as well as Tolkien's inspirations and a whole lot more.

[B]

And while we take the work seriously, the same cannot be said about ourselves. We're just a couple of friends chatting at the pub. And we're really glad you've joined us.

[A]

We are, and I'm sure you'll be glad you joined as well. But before we get to tonight's chapter discussion, it's time for fan favorite Philology Fair. I have really missed this segment and I have to say, when I was writing this episode, I. I realized, oh, it had been a while, and I actually looked back on the calendar and the roadmap. We haven't had a Philology fair on the PPP since the one you and I did in episode 369 last April on the Arkenstone.

[B]

Whoa, really?

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Okay. Wow, that is a long time.

[A]

Yeah, yeah.

[B]

But in fairness, the entire episodes you did with James on Appendix F should probably count as episode long Philology fairs.

[A]

That's fair.

[B]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. But I see what you mean.

[A]

Well, whatever the case, six months for a segment like this is definitely a long enough delay. So let's get our word nerd on. Now, this is going to feel a bit like a lightning round Philology Fair because we're not going to spend the entire time looking at just one word like we sometimes do, or like we did with Arkansas in 369. Instead, we're going to dive into a few names from the story, starting with Aldarian. As we read early in the story, Aldarian's right name, that is the name he had when he was born, was. Was Anardil. That is Quenya for friend of the sun. You look at the element Anar, meaning sun, right? We see that in Anarion, the brother of Isildur. And then of course, the well known Endil ending, which means lover or friend, like in Earendil. Now, the name that he took, Aldarien, is also Quenya. And while it isn't actually defined or given to us anywhere, it appears to mean son of trees. And it's fairly straightforward. The first element of Aldar means trees. Now, that's a bit less common of an element in Quenya. I was only able to find one other example, and it's Aldamir. Which means tree Jewel. That's the name of the 23rd king of Gondor that ruled from third age, 1490 to 1540, after the kin Strife. But, folks, you're going to be more familiar with the Sindarin cognate of Quenya, Aldar, because that's Galadh, as in the Galadhrim, the people of the trees. And then, of course, the ion suffix, the Aldarian, the ion, that's just the patronymic, means son of. So once he became king, like the other kings before him, he added that prefix tar, meaning high, to his name. So Tar Aldarian.

[B]

I'm finding it mildly ironic that he is son of Trees, given what he does to checks. Notes. Trees.

[A]

Trees.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

I need to find the Quenya suffix for slayer of.

[B]

Yes, I think it would be slightly different. Anyway, Arendus name is a bit less clear, though. Linguist Paul Strack, the creator of one of our favorite language resources online Lexicon El Darmo, the Elvish Data model, he suggests it is also Quenya, a compound of, er, meaning alone or one, as in. And indis, meaning wife or bride. And this one's interesting, of course, because the name Indis, as in Finway's second wife and the mother of Fin, Golfin and Fnarfin, is defined as great or valiant woman in the shibboleth of Feanor. But in the etymologies, the element Indus is glossed just as wife or bride.

[A]

That's interesting that the name is glossed differently from the element, even if it's the same word. You know what I mean? It's interesting right?

[B]

Now, if it's the latter, then her name seems to have meant something like Lonely bride, which really does fit.

[A]

It's a little on the nose, but.

[B]

Yeah, it is a little bit, yes. What are we going to name this child? Let's name her Lonely Bride. This will have no effect on her future life whatsoever.

[A]

None at all.

[B]

But we're not actually told if that was a prophetic birth name or a name ascribed to her after her marriage to Aeldarion.

[A]

Right, we're reading the story so many years later.

[B]

Right, exactly. And she was also known as, we'll see next episode, as Tar Elestirne, lady of the Star Brow, because of the white jewel she wore on her brow, the one that was given to her by Aldarion.

[A]

Right, the diamond that she. Yeah, exactly. Lovely stuff. Great or Valiant Woman, or which is singular. Great or valiant Woman, if we're looking at the name Indus, but Lonely Wife or bride is. Ouch.

[B]

Yeah. Also interesting that Indus is defined as great or valiant woman in the Shibboleth of Feanor because she wasn't Feanor's favorite person.

[A]

I know, I thought the same thing. I mean, Feanor really kind of had it out for her. But, you know, the Shibboleth has a lot of linguistic bits and details that Feanor would not have, necessarily.

[B]

No, but you can imagine Feanor defining it as horrible hag of a stepmother.

[A]

Exactly.

[B]

Exactly Right. That would have worked better for him, I think.

[A]

I'm sure it would have. Lonely bride isn't lonely enough.

[B]

Yeah, right.

[A]

Well, today most likely. And if not, then early next episode. We will see Aldarion and Arendys ascend the Meneltarma for Eruquerme. And we already saw a mention of Eruhante two weeks ago. Now, these two, along with Erulaitele, are the three prayers held each year atop the Meneltarma. And we're going to look at them briefly in terms of the festivals when we get to the Erukerme word nerdery wise, they're actually pretty straightforward. I mean, they all have eru, the first element in each. And that's clearly a reference to Iluvatar, the one.

[B]

Right. And then kirme means prayer in Quenya, but this is its only appearance, and the etymology is unknown. And it's the only word in Quenya that uses that k sound. And traditional Quenya no longer has that sound, as it was merged with long before. So it's likely only used by the Numenoreans and their immediate descendants. The Vanya and the Noldor wouldn't say it like this. Maybe tierme, but not kjerme, from what we could find.

[A]

That's interesting. So they would use the t if they were to use that same element.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Well, the next one's even easier. Erulaitele. You're likely familiar with Laetele, meaning praise, like you and I, Sarah, encountered when we walked through the field of Cormoran.

[B]

Yes, yes. Such a great chapter that was.

[A]

And I just love the musicality of that word. Laetele. The verb is laeta, with the nominalizing suffix. That is to say, the suffix that turns the verb into a noun is the le bet. So, you know, it does mean praise, but it's laeta is the verb. Praise like to praise. But then the noun, like let's heap praise upon him as we did in the field of Karmala. And that's how it goes from laeta to laetele. So eru, laetele is just praising eru. Finally, eruhant is similar. That le suffix is another nominalizing suffix that's attached to a core verb not otherwise listed anywhere, but here, Hanta. Now, Vinyar Tengwar thinks that's derived from the root han, which means to increase or honor. So it's Thanksgiving to eru. So, like kme, it is the only occurrence of that element, hantele, in Tolkien's work.

[B]

So han, that would be its solo reference.

[A]

Wow.

[B]

Oh, I'm sorry. I could not.

[A]

Oh, no, you could not. I was you shot first. That's fair.

[B]

Shots fired. And I think I might have hit.

[A]

I think so I'll just do my greo impression and just collapse into the.

[B]

Corner and folks, you can't see it. But that's exactly what he just did.

[A]

Slumped over on the table.

[B]

All right, don't blame you. That was terrible. Anyway, moving very swiftly on, one of the places that is strongly connected to the story of Aldarion and Arendes is the port of Vignalonde, which Christopher Tolkien translates for us as New Haven, describing it as the Numenorean harbour established by Tar Aldarion at the mouth of the river Gwathlo, afterwards called Lon Dyer.

[A]

So let's go ahead and break down Vinya Londe into its two relatively obvious components, Vinya and Londe. For the first part, Vinya, we'll just look at a couple of issues of Vineyard Tengwar. A quick digression, by the way, because I just mentioned Vineyard Tengwar for folks still newer to the fandom or to the show, or maybe just beginning their linguistic studies. Vineyard Tengwar is a linguistic journal published by the Elvish Linguistic Fellowship, known as the Elf. They're a group that focuses on a scholarly study of Tolkien's invented languages. They are also the publishers of Parma El Dalambaron, often cited on this show, edited by Christopher Gilson, who's one of our keynote speakers, by the way, at the 2025 PPP. Moot in just a couple of months. And it was just coincidental.

[B]

I'd say the coincidence seems unlikely, but nope, it really is coincidental.

[A]

Yep. Yep.

[B]

So In Vinyangma number 47, we learn that Vinya is a Quenya word that means young, and it comes from the root win. There was also a deleted entry for Winya with a W meaning new, fresh, young. That's in vinyah tengwa number 40. Now, we see this word in one other place, Vinyamar. Yeah, you might recall that was the city built by Turgon in Nevrast that was abandoned when he and his people moved to Gondolin. And its name means new home. And it's where Tuor found some old armor that apparently serendipitously fit him perfectly.

[A]

So apparently, once it stopped being a new home, they just up and left. Yeah, yeah.

[B]

Now it's old home and we name it something else.

[A]

We're just gonna call it something.

[B]

So it's time to move.

[A]

Exactly. So we have new young as the first part of Vigna Lande. The second part, Lande, should ring a bell for those familiar with the story of Feanor and the kinslaying at Alqualonde. Alqualonde, the city of the Teleri on the shores of Amon, is a word meaning swan haven or haven of the swans, named for the beautiful ships of the Teleri, which burn too well with their prows crafted to look like swans. But we have also seen that Lande suffix already in this story, when we talked about the bow of returning. You may remember, we read from that description of the island of Numenor, that gorgeous prose where we read about the most beautiful of all the havens of Numenor. El Donde the green. And that's a Koen name meaning haven of the Eldar. We'll see Londe once again later in this story when Eldarion builds another ship that he names Hiralonde, which means the Haven finder.

[B]

Wait, Eldarion builds another ship?

[A]

That's all he knows what to do.

[B]

Spoilers.

[A]

I know.

[B]

Okay. Well, I think we have really dived deep enough into the language. I think it's time to dive deep into the chapter. What do you reckon?

[A]

I think we should. I think.

[B]

Okay, over to you to start us off.

[A]

All right. At the open rebellion of Aldarion, the king rescinded his authority as lord of the ships and havens of Numenor. And he caused the guildhouse of the Venturers on Eombar to be shut and the shipyards of Romenna to be closed and forbade the filling of all trees for shipbuilding. Five years passed, and Eldarion returned with nine ships, for two had been built in Vignalonde, and they were laden with fine timber from the forests of the coasts of Middle Earth. The anger of Aldarion was great when he found what had been done. And to his father he said, if I am to have no welcome in Numenor and no work for my hands to do, and if my ships may not be repaired in its havens, then I will Go again, and soon, for the winds have been rough and I need refitment. Has not a king's son aught to do but study women's faces to find a wife? The work of forestry I took up and I have been prudent in it. There will be more timber in Numenor ere my day ends than there is under your scepter. And true to his word, Aldarien left again in the same year with three ships and the hardiest of the Venturers going without blessing or bow for Meneldur set a ban on all the women of his house and of the Venturers and put a guard about Romenna. On that voyage, Aldarion was away so long that the people feared for him, and Meneldur himself was disquieted, despite the grace of the Valar that had ever protected the ships of numenor. When 10 years were gone since his sailing, Arundis at last despaired. And believing that Eldarion had met with disaster, or else that he had determined to dwell in Middle Earth. And also, in order to escape the importuning of suitors, she asked the Queen's leave. And departing from Armenalos, she returned to her own kindred in the Westlands.

[B]

Oh, boy.

[A]

Pretty patient, if you ask me.

[B]

Way more patient than I would have been. Oh, boy.

[A]

10 years, man.

[B]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. 10 days. I might have held on for 10 years. No, no, no, no, no. So anyway, in what we can only say was just a question of time, Eldarion has openly rebelled against his father. And not just his father, of course, but his king.

[A]

Exactly.

[B]

Yeah. So it's huge. And in a way, he is setting the stage here, at least opening the door for the Shadow to descend on Numenor in future generations.

[A]

Yeah, he's absolutely rebelling against the authority of the king. And it's. It's what the kings themselves will do, you know, as they rebel against the authority of Iluvatar and of Manwe.

[B]

Yep. And it's the first time we've actually heard of this kind of rebellion in Numenor. So, yes, this is definitely the first step towards what eventually happens. Right.

[A]

Yeah. We're only in the fifth king of the kingdom, you know, effectively. I mean, we've actually only the fourth king, effectively. Right. Because we have the son of Elros that just said, I'm 387, I don't need to do this.

[B]

I'm too old for this.

[A]

Exactly. So, I mean, this is pretty early in Numenorean history to see an open rebellion of The King's heir against the King. So Tottenham and Eldor does the only things that he actually has the power to do, right? He can't really reach across the ocean and drag his son back to Numenor, but he can and does take away his iPhone, his TV, his car, his allowance, you know? Or in second age terms, he takes away his authority as the Lord of the Ships and shuts down his frat house, Guild House.

[B]

Sorry, turns off the WI fi and that's it.

[A]

Yeah, yeah, pretty much. You're done, son.

[B]

There are consequences for your behavior, son. And more than that, he shuts down the entire industry of shipbuilding and sailing. So he absolutely closes everything down. There's nothing left for Aldari when he gets back. He closes the shipyards. He forbids the cutting down of a single tree to build ships. He has become anti ship.

[A]

Yeah, he really has. You know, you could cut down trees to build cabinets and houses and furniture and, you know, little, little toys for your kids. You can, you know, cut down whatever. You just don't build a ship. Yeah. And that's okay. IKEA is happy because they don't do flat packs of ships, so they're good.

[B]

I wonder if they would still do the meatballs in.

[A]

One imagines the Swedish influence is probably less than Numenorch. So, question for you, as we kind of start to think through this, is shutting down the Guild House, or maybe even shutting down the. The industry, the shipbuilding industry, something that Maneldor might have done to greater effect or maybe to better effect earlier on? Or could he have? Right. There's a political faction that's been gaining ground the entire time. It. There's no indication that it's unpopular at this point, so he's really going against the grain. But, like, as it's been rising, would it have been easier to, you know, nip this in the bud, proverbially speaking?

[B]

Oh, absolutely. But I think that would have been to endow him with the kind of second sight that he doesn't have.

[A]

That's fair. Yeah.

[B]

We're looking at this in retrospect. Sure, he should have stopped them in their tracks, but. Yeah. So with a crystal ball, it would have been, yes, a great idea for him to have shut down the whole Guild thing from the very start, but it didn't seem like such a terrible idea at the beginning, and then it gained popularity, and then it becomes much harder to shut it down.

[A]

Yeah. The more popular it is, the more difficult it is to make that decision. And in this case, it took open Rebellion for him to finally step that up.

[B]

Right. I mean, I have to be honest, the open rebellion gave him the excuse he needed.

[A]

Well, that's true. Yeah. If nothing else, at this point, he's probably going to have, if not the, like, vocal support of most of the people. He'll have the. Well, he had no other choice. Right. I mean, I think the people in. In Numenor gonna be like, well, what else was gonna happen? I mean, you know, he is the king and he told you not to leave.

[B]

Right.

[A]

I may not like this. Right. I might like the guild, but they had to know this is gonna come.

[B]

Yeah, that's it. I mean, he's the king in the end. And this was open rebellion against the king.

[A]

You're the lord of the ships and the havens and you do this.

[B]

Yeah. If Meneldor had done nothing, that would simply have made him look weak.

[A]

Oh, absolutely.

[B]

And that would have put him in an even worse position. But now he and his son have gone pretty much no contact.

[A]

Yeah. Yeah. Well, it's easy to do when your son's on the high seas. Yeah.

[B]

Yes. So five years later, so that second age, 829, according to the chronology at the end, he comes back to Numenor with. And this is the ultimate sticking a finger up at his father.

[A]

Right.

[B]

He's got two more ships than he left with. I mean, I just have this mental picture of him standing in the bow at the front of these nine ships, going nyah nyah, nya nye nyah. But then he has behaved a bit toddler esque for a long story.

[A]

That is fair.

[B]

So he'd stopped at Vigna Londy where two more ships were built.

[A]

That is wild. And he built those ships because he needed the cargo room because they were all filled with trees cut down from the Middle Earth forests. And now I want to just prepare you folks. We will get to the deforestation of Middle Earth in just a bit because this is really important. But. But it is interesting and I want you to take note how aggressive he is. Eldarion cutting there in Middle Earth, while, as we will see, being much more of a conservator in Numenor.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

Very different attitudes.

[B]

Yeah, very different. It is the attitude of the colonialist. Home must be protected. Anything else is up for grass.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

So he comes back and he discovers that everything has changed. The Guildhouse is closed, the shipyards have been shut down. The timber industry gone.

[A]

Yeah. Now this. We've talked about this before in Tolkien. He's always giving people Chances to recognize their. Their errors. Does this make Eldarion repentant? Does he have regret that his actions have led to all of this? No, of course not. Yeah, exactly. Lol. His anger was great. And he lays into his father, look, if I can't fix my ships in these closed shipyards and my guild house has been closed, I'm out. I'm just gonna leave again.

[B]

After all, it was a rough journey. My ships need repair. Note that the footnote here says that this mention of the winds having been rough should, quote, be understood as a portent.

[A]

Both Alan and I going, yeah, I guess I'm wondering, you know, would. Would it be fair to say that both Aldarion and Meneldor should have understood this as a portent themselves, or is this just a portent for the reader? Like, you know what I mean? Is this something that Eldarion should have said? Ah, you know what? You thought it was rough now, because I promise you it's going to get rougher here. That's just interesting. Like, understood as a portent.

[B]

Yeah, I mean, it is interesting. But let's remember that it says right back at the beginning that the ships of Numenor have always been under the protection of the Valar. And they have.

[A]

Yeah, we'll talk about that too.

[B]

Yeah, exactly. So if they're under the protection of the Valar, then you would not expect them to be thrown around the seas and subject to the damage caused by high winds because they are protected. But it doesn't seem that Aldarion has been a hundred percent protected here. I mean, they haven't sunk his ships.

[A]

No, not yet.

[B]

But they've thrown them around a bit.

[A]

They have, yeah. And they're not going to sink any. Yeah, you'd think so. Yeah. And then I love this, like randomly out in the middle of nowhere. Go back to that reading. And he's like, if I'm not to be welcome here and I can't do my job, I'm gonna leave. Is there nothing else for me to do but look at women and find a wife? Like, what a minute? What? That is a non sequitur, sir. Nobody mentioned a wife. Nobody mentioned the search for wife. Nobody mentioned horrendous. But Eldarion immediately goes there. Am I supposed to do nothing but look at women to try to get married? Well, first of all, there are worse fates in life. Second. Really? Did anybody say anything about this?

[B]

I wonder if. No, but I wonder if that's a little bit of his conscience pricking him there.

[A]

I think it is. I think it absolutely is because he.

[B]

Knows he left Horrendous high and dry, if you'll pardon that pun. And he's. He's not done anything about it and he's been away for another nine years.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Which to him is 10 minutes to horrendous. It's nine years.

[A]

Yeah. My goodness. It's such, you know, these, these long trips.

[B]

Yeah, yeah, exactly. And then he goes on his bit about his forestry. He says he's been prudent and that there will be more wood for shipbuilding at the end of his reign than there is under the authority of Tarman Elder. I'll do a better job at this than you. Okay, but what about the rest of being.

[A]

I was gonna say, yeah, you've got this, you've got one job, but it's a big job. It's the job of king and you're looking well. There could be more trees when I'm done.

[B]

Well, there might be more trees in Numenor, but clearly there's not going to be more trees in Middle Earth.

[A]

No, we'll definitely be talking about that. Just, just a quick clarification because I want to make sure folks are catching. The time on this trip was only five years. He was gone for five years. It was the nine ships is what the nine ships.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

And then he's about to be gone on a 14 year journey. But that's. We'll get to that in a little bit because we actually don't even get through all 14 years of it in this reading because we get to the 10 year mark and Arendis is like, I'm out. Yeah. So anyway, just want to clarify that real quick.

[B]

Oh, no, thank you for that. Because there are so many trips abroad here that he's going on that.

[A]

So many.

[B]

It's like, okay, how many years was this one?

[A]

Yeah, it's wild.

[B]

So anyway, what did he think would be the reaction upon his return? What was he expecting? What do you think he would find? I mean, did he think fatted calf was going to be the welcome?

[A]

I mean, it's all exactly the kind of consequences that you would expect any king to cause to happen for somebody who committed open rebellion.

[B]

Right.

[A]

I mean, if Veontur had done this to Tar Elendil under the previous kingship, Tar Elendil would have done the exact same thing.

[B]

Of course, because he's king and you've got to show that you're the one who's in charge.

[A]

I told you to do this. You did this. So I'm shutting these Things down there.

[B]

Are consequences for action, my boy.

[A]

Absolutely. It's not like five years forgives all.

[B]

No.

[A]

So sure enough, you know, it's like, if I can't stay here, then, you know, I'm going to leave. So he leaves in the same year. So he's just been gone for five, and he's about to leave again in the same year. But this time it's a much smaller crew and fleet. Right. We get three ships instead of nine. Or the seven that he left with. And only the hardiest members of the Guild.

[B]

So clearly some people have thought, oops, better not actually do that again.

[A]

Yeah. Not going to hitch my wagon of that horse.

[B]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean, after all, Mineldor had banned them and he closed the Guild house, and he'd also surrounded the harbors with his guards, and he forbade any of the women of his house from giving Aeldarion the green bough. So, whereas before, there was a little loophole.

[A]

Yeah, wink, wink, nudge, nudge. You know, fine, you go ahead and do it, but I'm not gonna.

[B]

He closed the loophole.

[A]

He did.

[B]

He absolutely did. And that's why Eldarion left without the green bough of returning. Which continues this break with tradition.

[A]

That's the thing. I mean, Numenoreans have a lot of tradition and he just is thumbing his nose at all of it. But yeah, you thought he was gone a long time before. You ain't seen nothing yet. I mean, he is now gone. Gone long enough that the people of Numenor are genuinely afraid for his safety.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Yep.

[B]

And even his dad, the king, is worried. Even though he knows that the Valar have actively protected the mariners and the ships of Numenor, subject to the rough winds that we were just talking about. Oh, yeah, yeah.

[A]

We might not sink you, but we're going to make sure you feel the wrath.

[B]

Little queasy? Need a little drama mean?

[A]

Exactly. Quick mention, by the way, of the Akalabeth here in the footnote, where we're reminded that during Ar Pharazon's reign as the last king of Numenor, this protection was finally withdrawn. That's where we read Ever and Anon, a great ship of the Numenoreans would founder and not return to Haven, though such a grief had not till then befallen them since the rising of the star.

[B]

Yeah, so in other words, they never lost a great ship in the entire history of the kingdom until the time of Pharazon. So for more than 3,000 years, the.

[A]

Valar protected the ships they even protected Eldarion's ships. That's wild. Yeah. Yeah. So 10 years later. 10 years later, after a five year journey, he comes back, throws a fit and leaves again. Orendus. Finally. Just. That's it. I give up. He's dead. He's found a wife in Middle Earth. Nice little hobbit to settle down with.

[B]

Thanks for that visual.

[A]

Heads off to her own homeland.

[B]

I don't blame her. The bit that really caught my eye though was that note she also left to escape the importun of suitors. I love that word.

[A]

Importuning for tuning. What a word that is.

[B]

I mean, fantastic.

[A]

It really is. It's. For those of you who don't. Maybe because it is not a word that we hear very often. It does mean to harass somebody persistently. Beg, beseech, implore. So we're talking about people who just can't take no for an answer.

[B]

Yes. Red flag. Red flag.

[A]

Just leave the girl alone. I get why they're approaching her. Because clearly Eldarion is not interested. Sure. Brought you a diamond. But he's been gone for 15 years.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

How about a date?

[B]

Take a hint, woman, you know.

[A]

Exactly.

[B]

Yeah. And she's still beautiful.

[A]

Oh, I'm sure.

[B]

But I'm sure that the suitors. It's not gone unnoticed by these suitors that she is now getting on a little bit in her years.

[A]

So maybe they think their odds are a little better now.

[B]

Exactly.

[A]

I tried eight or nine years ago, but that was when Eldarion came back with that diamond. So she rejected me. But now, you know, one of them's just gonna say it's easier to get killed by a terrorist after the age of 30 than it is to get married after the age of 30.

[B]

Good grief.

[A]

There's some movie quote I don't remember, but there was. It's, you know, terrible. It's obviously not true.

[B]

But it also shows that Arendes is absolutely 100 not interested.

[A]

She's not interested. We saw that earlier, right? I swipe left. Swipe left or swipe. I don't know about which one's which. But she's. She's saying no to all of them. Once she. Her heart has been won. As Mineldor tried to explain. Or actually no, I think it was all Marian who said, heart's already won. That part's done. Whether he knows it or not, whether he accepts it or not, she wants him and nobody else. And we've got to deal with that fact.

[B]

I find it fascinating though, that even though she swiped right on Eldarion and left on everybody else. It's just incredible to me that after all of this time she's still so much in love with Aeldarion that she doesn't look at anybody else at all.

[A]

That does seem a little naive at best.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

I mean, because when we look at the timeline, right, it's 10 years. So now it's second age 839. If we look at the timeline of his cruises, of his journeys, Eldarion has now been at sea for nearly 15 years straight. I mean, he came back from the five year journey and left and he's been gone for 10, but he's also been gone 19 of the last 23 years and 26 out of the last 33 years.

[B]

Yeah. Nothing says I love you, want to marry you, I want to be with you. Like leaving, like leaving of 33 years.

[A]

That's just insane. That's 75%. It's more than three quarters of the time. Yeah, he's just gone.

[B]

He just ain't that into you, girl.

[A]

No, seriously. Oh my goodness. So she's like, I'm out, I'm out.

[B]

Yep, I'm out. And she heads home. And we'll chat more about her home in the Westlands in a later reading. Today.

[A]

A few months back, I told you about Ridge. All right. They sent me one of their wallets and a key case. I've been using them every day since. I love how their modern take on the wallet holds plenty of cards while taking up very little space. And another thing I like is how their stuff is made out of so many really cool materials. I mean, my carbon fiber ones are amazing, but they've got aluminum, leather, titanium and more. In fact, they've got 50 styles, materials and colors to choose from and they all come with a lifetime warranty. So quite literally the last wallet you'll have to buy. All of Ridge's wallets have RFID blocking technology built in to keep you safe from digital pickpockets. And you can get the Ridge airtag attachment so you'll always know where you put your wallet or keys. Ridge isn't just about wallets though. They make pens, phone cases, even suitcases. And everything they make comes with a lifetime warranty, free shipping and a 99 day risk free trial. So head over to ridge.com now for a limited time, our listeners get 10% off at Ridge by using code pony at checkout. Go to ridge.com and use code pony and you're all set. Now after you purchase, they're going to Ask you where you heard about them. Please support the Prancing Pony podcast. Tell them our show sent you. As the weather starts to cool down here, finally my wardrobe changes. I get to start wearing things that get the job done. Warm, durable, built to last. And Quince delivers each and every time with staples that will carry you through the season. Quince believes quality should never be a luxury. Their lineup is filled with great products at reasonable prices. 100% Mongolian cashmere sweaters from 60 bucks. In fact, my Quince jeans have become my absolute go to perfect fit and the right feel throughout. I've ordered a couple of shirts from them on my own and now I've got my eye on their suede bomber jacket. Perfect for some cool fall evenings. Now Quince partners directly with ethical manufacturers to cut out the middleman and give you top quality at half the cost of similar brands. So layer up this fall with pieces that feel as good as they look. Go to quince.com pony for free shipping on your order and 365 day returns. That's Q U I N C E.com pony free shipping and 365 day returns. That's a full year. Quince.com pony quality doesn't have to be a luxury. Quince. Now soon we'll get to Eldarion's return. Well, I say soon. It's actually four more years, but in podcast terms, we'll get to it real soon. We won't make you wait that long. Can you imagine if we were doing the podcast in real time?

[B]

Oh my goodness.

[A]

We're going to cover Eldarin and Arenas over the next 150 years. My great grandchildren will tell you the end of the story.

[B]

We passed this burden down through the generations.

[A]

So before we do get to Eldarion's return, I do want to take a minute to thank the amazing community that has grown up around this show. After all, there is a lot more talk going on at the Prancing Pony Podcast than just us.

[B]

Just as well. Now the PPP really does have a warm and welcoming listener community. If you've got questions or you just want to talk about how much you love Middle Earth, be sure to check out our common room on Facebook and across all social media. On Facebook, just look for the Prancing Pony podcast. And yeah, there's a page. But you're going to want to join that group for the great fan community.

[A]

You absolutely will. Now, on every social media platform other than Facebook, we're just at Prancing Pony Pod and you can find us on Reddit at our subreddit at R Slash Prancing Pony Pod Be sure to check out my daily show. That's today's Tolkien times on YouTube and on your favorite podcast apps. That's where you can get your daily Middle Earth fix with everything from Middle Earth map Mondays to First Stage Fridays. Be sure to watch or listen at YouTube.comRancing Pony Pod but we're going to get back into the story and see just how much longer Earendus has to wait for Aldarion to show up.

[B]

Oh my goodness. Okay. But after four years more, Aldarion at last returned, and his ships were battered and broken by the seas. He had sailed first to the haven of Vignalonde, and thence he had made a great coastwise journey southwards, far beyond any place yet reached by the ships of the Numenoreans. But returning northwards, he had met contrary winds and great storms, and scarce escaping shipwreck in the Harad, found Vignalonde overthrown by great seas and plundered by hostile men three times. He was driven back from the crossing of the great sea by high winds out of the west, and his own ship was struck by lightning and dismasted, and only with labour and hardship in the deep waters. And did he come at last to haven in Numenor. Greatly was Meneldur comforted at Aldarion's return, but he rebuked him for his rebellion against King and father, thus forsaking the guardianship of the Valar and risking the wrath of Osse, not only for himself, but for men whom he had bound to himself in devotion. Then Ardarion was chastened in mood, and he received the pardon of Meneldor, who restored to him the lordship of the ships and havens, and added thereto the title of Master of the Forests. Aldarion was grieved to find Arendys gone from Armenelos, but he was too proud to seek her, and indeed he could not well do so, save to ask for her in marriage. And he was still unwilling to be bound. He set himself to the repairing of the neglects of his long absence, for he had been nigh on 20 years away.

[A]

Wow. Wow. Yeah. So we've jumped in the timeline now to second age 843, after 14 years at sea, but really 19, because he was only back for a little bit. He makes it back. But you know if his last return was surprisingly positive. Right? Two extra ships. All the ships filled with lumber. This one carries bad news.

[B]

Yep. Now no ships have been sunk, and like we talked about last reading, that didn't happen until Farazon's reign. Sometimes 2,500 years later than this story takes place. But Aeldarion ships are beaten up and Vignolande, well, that's lost. And we'll get to that in a minute.

[A]

We will. I mean, after stopping there on the way south, all was well. And that's when they head further south. They make it all the way to the Harad. And I'm not going to lie, that is some impressive journeying. It's further south than the Numenoreans had ever gone before. It's a long, long way.

[B]

Yeah, but they barely escape with the ships. And then when we get back to the mouth of the Gwathlo, well, that's where we learn that Vignolande, the shiny, pretty, lovely new harbour that Aldarion built sometime during his voyages that took place between 750 after founding the guild and 800 when his father commanded him to stick around. It had been overthrown by the ocean itself. So much for his skills as a harbour developer. Yeah, and also plundered by hostile men.

[A]

And that plundered by hostile men is going to prompt a pretty significant sidebar. This is the best place to talk about the subject of deforestation in Numenor. Or, I'm sorry, deforestation in Middle Earth by Numenor. And I want to take a look at this whole issue of plundered by hostile men from that different perspective, from the viewpoint of the native dwellers of the land near Vignolande. Keep in mind that the story of Eldarion and Arendus that we're reading is a Numenorean history, so it's not going to look too askance at Eldarion's actions. I mean, after all, he is a very important king and he does some really important things establishing that relationship with Gil Galad, which will lead to Numenor coming in and saving everybody's bacon later in the Second Age. But.

[B]

Yeah, but to get a fuller picture here, let's go to the history of Galadriel and Celeborn. And, yes, sorry, this means you'll cover this again when you cover it with King James later this season.

[A]

Oh, no.

[B]

Anyway, can never have too much Galadriel and Celeborn. Right?

[A]

Fair enough.

[B]

So, in an appendix to the history of Galadriel and Celeborn, specifically appendix D, we learn about the port of Lond Dyer, which is the name later given to the place currently referenced as Vignalonde.

[A]

Now, we do get some great descriptions of the lands in this region, as well as some cool word nerdery on Guaflo. But what matters in that appendix for our reading today, for our study of Eldarion and Arendus, and is this historical look at the area, but in the earlier days at the time of the first explorations of the Numenoreans. So now we're talking about between 750 and 800, when Vinnialande was established, the situation was quite different. Menhiriath and Enedwaith were occupied by vast and almost continuous forests, except in the central region of the Great Fens. The changes that followed were largely due to the operations of Tar Aldarien, the Mariner King, who formed a friendship and alliance with Gil Galad. Aldarion had a great hunger for timber, desiring to make Numenor into a great naval power. His felling of trees in Numenor had caused great dissensions.

[B]

I think there's some very, very interesting language.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Apart from the fact that Tolkien repeats great three times. Great hunger, great, great naval power, great power, great dissensions. Exactly.

[A]

That is not coincidental at all. Tolkien's so purposeful with words.

[B]

There is no way he went. I can't think of anything else to say. I'm just going to use the word great three times. We're meant to notice this.

[A]

Yeah, yeah, exactly, exactly. We really are. And I thought it's interesting that it's his felling of trees in Numenor that caused the dissensions. You know, we talked about this before. He's. He's. There's. There have been problems. Right. So, you know, his father has banned chopping down trees for the building of ships. That's the dissension that we're talking about here later on. And it's so interesting to get this different spin on this exact same moment in history.

[B]

Yes, yes, absolutely. And let's have a look at some of the other words that Tolkien uses that I think really point us to where we're going with this and the potential consequences. Yeah. Because he says Aldarion has a great hunger for timber. I mean, hunger. Think about it. This is a devouring, consuming kind of desire, right?

[A]

Yeah. It wasn't. He had a need for timber.

[B]

No, no. A hunger. Yeah, yeah. And desiring to make Numenor into a great naval power.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Why?

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

I mean, it's one thing to want Numenor to have a great fleet of ships for exploration and, you know, for mapping out the world and all that kind of thing, but we have the word power for a reason. Yeah, yeah, exactly. If you are designing a navy, then that does imply that you are going to use that navy to exert your power.

[A]

Yes, yeah, that's what a navy is. It's projection of power to another. I mean, you know, you can have a standing army, but a navy is going to, by definition, be off the coast of your land. It will be elsewhere. It is a projection of power.

[B]

It is indeed.

[A]

It is not a coincidence that he uses the word power here.

[B]

Not at all.

[A]

You know, we can hear about the Guild of Explorers and we can think of it as being about exploration. And I think it's fair to say that initially it is. But what we have to remember is that this Appendix D in the history of Galadriel and Celeborn that we're reading is like the story of Eldarion and Arendus written much later, with some benefit of hindsight and being able to say, yeah, maybe it was exploration at first, but what came of it was that Tar Aldarian. So here we're not talking about the Eldarian we're reading about now. We're talking about the Eldarian as king later on. That's when he has this great hunger. And he goes from wanting to make Numenor an exploratory power and to learn about the world and to explore the Guild of Explorers. Instead, he later, maybe not Eldarion now in the story, but Eldarion later in the story has this hunger and this desire to become powerful.

[B]

Yeah, yeah. And that's when we discover what Eldarion himself discovered. And the text tells us this. In Voyages down the coast, he saw with wonder the great forests. And he chose the estuary of the Gwathlo for the site of a new haven entirely under Numenorean control. Gondor, of course, did not yet exist. There he began great works that continued to be extended after his days. This entry into Eriador later proved of great importance in the war against Sauron, Second Age, 1693-1701. But it was in origin a timber port and ship. Ship building harbor. That's vignolande. Strategically important 900 years later, but at first intended to harvest trees and build their big ships.

[A]

Exactly.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And it's so interesting to see it from this sort of mostly neutral viewpoint. Right, we're not talking about how great Eldarian is that we're also not criticizing him yet, at least not openly. You know, we're subtly making these points that he has this hunger for timber, but it's Very. That's very interesting. And you realize that obviously the great works had to be extended after his days because things get, you know, torn down by hostile people.

[B]

Why indeed?

[A]

Yeah, well, they get torn down because these forests and lands were not empty, were they? They weren't Eldarians for the taking, and I think that's what's important. The text there in Appendix D tells us the native people were fairly numerous and warlike, but they were forest dwellers, scattered communities without central leadership. They were in awe of the Numenoreans, but they did not become hostile until the tree felling became devastating. Then they attacked and ambushed the Numenoreans when they could, and the Numenoreans treated them as enemies and became ruthless in their fellings, giving no thought to husbandry or replanting. The fellings had at first been along both banks of the Gwathlord, and timber had been floated down to the Haven Lawn Dyer. But now the Numenoreans drove great tracks and roads into the forests northwards and southwards from the Gwathlo. And the native folk that survived fled from Menhiriath. And we talked in that earlier reading about how interesting it was that Eldarion was giving thought to replanting in Numenor.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And now we see exactly why he didn't give a thought to that here in Middle Earth and how it's caused an entire people to flee the area.

[B]

Yeah, indeed. And if we just look quickly back to the little bit that I read. Yeah, the important bit here is the site of a new haven entirely under Numenorean control.

[A]

Control. Yeah.

[B]

Right. This is colonialism, right. Where you go to this other place and you plant your flag and you say, everything here now belongs to us. And I don't care. Yeah. I don't care if anyone else lives here. That doesn't matter to us.

[A]

No.

[B]

Everything here is now ours for the exploiting, for the taking, and we don't have to worry about anybody else. And if they don't like it, then we're just going to kill them.

[A]

Or they can leave, you know, we're not going to stop you. Yeah. We're not. We're not here to necessarily kill all the native people here, but we're here to take the land and you're gonna have to get up and go.

[B]

Yeah. I mean, it says the native folk that survived fled.

[A]

Yeah. Because they had been treated as an enemy. I mean, sure, you can. You can say, well, the. The natives attacked them first, but they didn't attack them initially. They were in awe. They were afraid of them. Because, of course, they could see the Numenoreans were a mighty people. They didn't become hostile, that text says, until the tree felling became devastating.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

That's significant. This isn't just other coming in and taking some of the trees down. They're completely clear cutting entire regions of the forest, destroying the ecosystem, destroying their ability to live off the land. I mean, because the deer are leaving, you know, the. The game animals are leaving because the forests are being devastated. This is absolutely significant. And they are no wonder. At that point, they have no choice but to try to defend themselves by attacking the Numenoreans. And then, of course, you get that open hostility between the two sides. Yeah. And. And I just want to point out, folks, please make sure you come back after the winter break when James and I talk about Tal Omar, because this theme comes up again very strongly, very heavily.

[B]

Very, very strongly. Yes. Yeah. I think it's worth also noting, or at least remembering what Tolkien thought about the environment.

[A]

Oh, yeah. His love of trees.

[B]

Yeah. What is Tolkien saying here when the Numenoreans are not just destroying environment, but in the destruction of environment, they are ripping down trees?

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Think about that from Tolkien's point of view. And I think that tells us what he's saying about the Numenoreans.

[A]

Yeah. He's not saying these are the good gu.

[B]

Here.

[A]

When you're ruthless in your fellings, giving no thought to husbandry or replanting.

[B]

Are we the bad guys?

[A]

Wait a minute. Wait a minute. Yeah. So, you know, it's. It's. It's really troubling what they're doing here. Now, again, a lot of this, we're. We're looking into the future, but Aldarian is behind all of this. At the beginning, I mean, it's. Sure, it's very. It's very unlikely that these great roads and tracks going north and south in the river, that probably wasn't done during Aldarian's lifetime.

[B]

No.

[A]

Because it would have taken that long just to clear the timber from the riverbanks up and down the length of the river. But clearly he set a tone for what our objective is. Like you said, under Numenorean control, this isn't. Hey, guys, I know this is your land, and we're cool with that. We'd like to build an outpost here. Could we be like, strategic partners? And we will need some trees, but we'll cut in areas that you're not living, and we'll work with you to find the right Places to no. Under Numenorean control. Like you said, we're here. This is ours. Take it or leave it.

[B]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. That's the important thing, isn't it? Okay, so we learn that the refugees from here ended up in Dunland. For the most part. They didn't go north of the Baranduin because they feared the elves. And interestingly, they didn't go south to the Cape of Andrast because of the Druidyne. But that's another episode.

[A]

Yeah, it is. We'll get to that when we get to this story.

[B]

Yeah, exactly. For this story, what matters is what comes next. And the text tells us the devastation wrought by the Numenoreans was incalculable. For long years, these lands were their chief source of timber, not only for their shipyards at Londyre and elsewhere, but also for Numenor itself. Shiploads innumerable passed west over the sea. The denuding of the lands was increased during the war in Eriador, for the exiled natives welcomed Sauron and hoped for his victory over the Men of the Sea. Wow. I mean, it's a bad idea linking up with Sauron, but you can hardly blame them, right? Right. The enemy of my enemy is my friend. Yeah, well, ish in this case, but.

[A]

Yeah, you get it.

[B]

And you can bet that Sauron totally took advantage.

[A]

Oh, yeah. I mean, that's exactly what he does.

[B]

Of course. And we're told that while he didn't have the numbers to attack the port, which was then known as Londyer directly, he used these people, quote, as spies and guides for his raiders. And then after the war, we read that quote, most of the old forests had been destroyed. The Gwathlo flowed through a land that was far and wide. On either bank, a desert, treeless. But untilled. Oh, man.

[A]

When you combine that with what you mentioned earlier about Tolkien's love of trees, you can absolutely see what he's saying. Yeah, devastation, the denuding the desert.

[B]

Right.

[A]

This is awful. And he talked about incalculable, innumerable. It's almost unimaginable what they've done.

[B]

It is.

[A]

It's taken them a long time to do it, obviously. I mean, you know, modern technology. We could clear cut a forest that size and, you know, a whole lot. It wouldn't take hundreds of years to do it. But over the course of time, by the time the war was over, the forests were just gone. And, you know, we hear about this later, Treebeard talking about, there was once a time where, you know, we could go from here all the way up to the Old Forest without, you know, putting a foot on the ground or, you know, where a squirrel could. Could. Could do that. You realize this is the forest he's talking about?

[B]

Yep.

[A]

This is the place. And it's gone. Why is it gone? Numenor. The good guys.

[B]

Yeah, the ones who were the special ones. Right. Who got the Land of Gift because they were the special ones.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

But with this, Tolkien is telling us that this is now the mindset of the people of Numenor.

[A]

Right. Or at least of the leaders of Numenor, and presumably of enough of the people that there's. That there's a problem, you know?

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Yeah. That was a bit of a sidebar, folks. I just feel like it was really important to bring it in here. I felt like this is the best place to bring it because it puts Aldarion's actions into perspective. I mean, even if it was also the actions of later Numenorean kings that exacerbated this. He is the one who began the exploitation. He's the one who set the tone regarding the treatment of the land and the native inhabitants. And, of course, more for sure on Imperial Numenor and its treatment of the natives of Middle Earth when we get to that story of Tal Amar.

[B]

Yeah. So back to the text. We learned that it took him four tries to sail back home, with three of them resulting in being driven back by high winds. And there's that portent we were talking about in the last reading. It's almost like the Valar didn't want him to come back.

[A]

You think?

[B]

Isn't that interesting? And he even loses the mast of his own ship, the Palaren, when it's struck by lightning. I mean, the only other thing you.

[A]

Need are the Eagles of Manwe seriously deliver the message. Whenever I read the word struck by lightning, all I can think of is Bilbo, struck by lightning, struck by lightning. And so now I'm picturing Eldarion on the deck of a ship, struck by.

[B]

Lightning, struck by lightning.

[A]

Eventually, though, they do make it back again, 14 years later. And Manilda's reaction is. It's something. It's interesting. I mean, he's comforted that his son has come home, but then he rebukes him for the rebellion. Totally feels like when your kid's supposed to be home at 8, they crawl in at 11, and you give them that tearful hug. I'm so glad you're home. I was so worried about you. You're grounded for six Months. Go to your room. You know, I'm so glad you're home. I love you. You're in deep trouble.

[B]

Yes, it's that I'm not angry with you. I'm just so disappointed.

[A]

Oh, that hurts. Oh, that hurts. Yeah.

[B]

Yeah. Okay. So he rightly points out that by rebelling against the king, not just his papa, he's, quote, forsaking the Guardianship of the Valar and risking the wrath of.

[A]

Osse also is pretty much wrathful all the time. So you don't want to risk his wrath.

[B]

Yeah, yeah. And in another correct jab at his son, and this one, I think really hits, he points out that it's one thing to do that for yourself, but it's another thing entirely to take that risk for your men.

[A]

Yes. That really struck me. And I think you're right. I think that is maybe the thing that finally broke through, because we'll see Eldarion's reaction in a second. But I want to point out just how much of another Bjornath Beorhelm's son moment that is. This is that overmode. If you read that story, and it's not a Middle Earth story, it's basically a retelling of the Battle of Malden, where you have the English or the Anglo Saxon force on one side, you have the Vikings invading from the other. There's a tiny little strip of land between the island or the end of the peninsula on which the Vikings landed. And they can't come over and have the fair fight because it's this narrow strip of land. And finally they get to Beornath and they say to him, come on, man, let us come over and we'll have a fair fight. And Beortna says, oh, sure, let's do the chivalrous thing and we'll have a fair fight. And he gets himself killed along with most of his men. And that's the criticism that Tolkien has of him in this story is like, it's a good thing, this Northern spirit. But when you take it too far and you extend it, when you have a responsibility to the people underneath you, you don't have the right to take that action.

[B]

Right.

[A]

Because it's overweighed by the duty to the men beneath you.

[B]

And, of course, Tolkien would have seen things like this in the First World War.

[A]

Absolutely.

[B]

You know, the lions led by donkeys kind of idea.

[A]

Very much so.

[B]

Some Egypt at the top makes a decision, and everybody else dies because of it.

[A]

Exactly. When you get, you know, tens of thousands of men having to jump out of The. The trenches into machine gun fire, marching in formation.

[B]

Because that's how the stiff upper lip of the English do it.

[A]

Or it's how wars were fought in the Napoleonic period relatively right before. There's so many complicating factors when you look at World War I and you realize war had changed so dramatically in just the previous 50 years. It's awful. But you're right. There's very much a sense that Tolkien would have understood that from his own perspective. You know, the. The chateau generals telling these men what they needed to do and, you know, safely ensconced in their. In the. Well, in their chateaus, as the name suggests.

[B]

Indeed. But this is interesting because in a response we actually honestly did not expect.

[A]

Yeah. Yeah, I wouldn't.

[B]

Eldorion is properly humbled.

[A]

Yeah. Chasing first. I love that. Yeah. I respect that.

[B]

Indeed. Love that for him. But it doesn't last long enough. That's a whole other section of the story. Now, I wish there was a bit more here about the dialogue between father and son, but whatever was said seems to have gotten through to him. And Eldarion is actually humbled. Wow. He actually stops and thinks about somebody other than himself once in his life.

[A]

And I think it's the men under his command, like you said. I think that's the thing that gets true to him.

[B]

Indeed. And he is forgiven. And he has his positions restored to him and more. Because now he gets the title Master of the Forest. And again with that irony scratching at the screen.

[A]

Seriously, it really is so, you know, good for him. You know, Mineldur has made some decisions. We can, you know, argue about whether or not they were good decisions. But we move now from Aldarian the Mariner and King's heir to Aldarian guy somewhat vaguely interested in somebody whose name I forget. Horrendous.

[B]

Macy still remembers her.

[A]

Honestly. Seriously. I mean, he is sad to see that she's gone from the city. Dude, you've been gone 14 years just after I've been gone for five years. You're lucky she remembers your name.

[B]

Oh, you are not kidding.

[A]

That's just crazy.

[B]

Yeah. I mean, how would he have responded if he come back? And there's Erendis married with kids, and she's like, Aeldarion who?

[A]

And she would have had every right to do that. Yeah.

[B]

Oh, yeah.

[A]

Exactly.

[B]

Yeah. But in the first of so many unsurprising moments, he's described as being too proud to go after her. Man, it's a small island.

[A]

I mean, okay, I'm gonna be Pedantic here. It isn't actually small, but it is an island. Right. It is somewhere in the neighborhood of 167,000 square miles from folks with something we talked about on a description of the island of Numenor last season. So it's actually twice the size in terms of land area of the island of Great Britain. Still, though he's the king's heir, it cannot be hard to track this woman down.

[B]

Yeah. I mean, where else is she going to have gone?

[A]

Apart from home?

[B]

Her home.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Yeah. And it's not like he doesn't know where that is exactly. Right. But it's more than just his pride. He knows he can't go after her unless it's to ask her to marry him. And he's still not willing to do that.

[A]

That's mind blowing.

[B]

Oh, yeah. Good lord.

[A]

I mean, keeping willing to be bound.

[B]

I mean, I think that to be bound tells you everything about how he views marriage.

[A]

100%.

[B]

Yep.

[A]

100%. He does not view marriage as a partnership or as an opportunity to spend time with this woman that he loves. Oh, if I marry her, then I'm bound. Tied up.

[B]

Sara taps her fingers in irritated motion upon the table.

[A]

Do I need to point at the sign again?

[B]

Don't make me tap the sign.

[A]

Seriously.

[B]

I mean, let's keep in mind he's 143 years old going on 13 and she is 72. Right.

[A]

No spring chicken.

[B]

Yeah. I mean, this needs to be seen in the context of numenorean ages and stuff like that. He's roughly equivalent to. To 49 years old. Good lord. He needs to grow up. Well, she is roughly 35, so, you know, she's getting to the point where if she leaves it much longer.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

There's not going to be any family for her, is there?

[A]

No. And she's, she's certainly aware of this. I mean, you know, we talked before that it was not uncommon for men in El Ross's line to delay marriage for a significant amount of time. But then if you're going to do that, dude, you owe it to her to say, do not stick around for me. I will never marry you. Like, free this woman. For crying out loud, man.

[B]

I know. He keeps us stringing along, doesn't he?

[A]

He does. He really? Does he?

[B]

Absolutely. There is no way he brings the.

[A]

Diamond back on that journey.

[B]

He could have sat down here. Right, yeah. And written her a letter and said, hey, Arendis, sorry about this. Obviously this isn't going to work out.

[A]

This is never going to work.

[B]

Out. Yeah. I am not going to get married. And it's nothing personal. It's not you, it's me.

[A]

It's me. All of the cliches, all of the cliches. He could have done that in the few months that he was home between the five year journey and the 14 year journey.

[B]

Yeah, but he was too busy having a strop, wasn't he?

[A]

Well, that's true.

[B]

He really was stomping around going, my dad. But I mean, here, where he's home and he's forgiven and he's bathing in the glow of fatherly love and all that kind of thing and he doesn't want to be bound.

[A]

Oh, my goodness.

[B]

This is the moment where he could grow a pair and write her a letter and say, sorry about this horrendous.

[A]

But let's just make this, you know, cut it clean. Yeah. Like Maneldor said, the diamond you brought back was not an appropriate gift for a friend. This is a betrothal gift. So you need to make up your mind and tell her. You need to make your mind known to her.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

You can't string her on.

[B]

Eldarion is totally the kind of person who would break up over text.

[A]

Oh, yeah, yeah. He's the kind of guy who just ghost. Are you kidding me? I don't think he had the guts to break up over text.

[B]

Oh, you're not wrong.

[A]

He'd ghost and block.

[B]

Oh, what an absolute insert word here.

[A]

Family friendly show. Sorry? Family friendly show. All right.

[B]

Anyway, back to Eldarion. Instead of doing what he really should have done, he gets to work. And now. Fair enough. He's not done a lot of work around Numenor for the last 20 years. No, but he does do some good stuff here. He redevelops the harbor at Romana and he starts his analysis of the forestry situation, seeing that trees have been cut. Not for ships though, because that was forbidden.

[A]

That's right.

[B]

But they've been cut with no replanting done, which obviously is not a good thing.

[A]

No, he knows enough to know that we need to be doing the husbandry here, that we need to be doing this properly in order to make sure these renewable resources are in fact renewed.

[B]

Renewable, yes, indeed. Yeah. You cut down a tree and you don't replace it. Guess what? You've got bare ground.

[A]

Yeah, exactly. That's not going to be very useful. Unless of course you're. You're clear cutting it so that you can till it for agriculture. But if you're doing that, that's a whole different ballgame here. We're just talking about forests being cut and no replanting.

[B]

Yeah. Yeah. So he's actually settling down and doing some of the things his dad would want him to do. Thinking about numenor rather than being out on the ocean or thinking about just himself. So he is actually doing some good stuff here. Just not with Orendis.

[A]

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[B]

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[B]

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[A]

Absolutely. She's not exaggerating. It is a tremendous discord community.

[B]

It really is.

[A]

I'm just not there very often. That's one of the reasons it's so great. No, it is filled with amazing people and I Gotta say, it's one of the highlights, I think, for many of our patrons. But the truth is, folks, your support there as a member of the Fellowship of the podcast, that's what enables me to work on this full time to do the ppp, Today's Tolkien Times, Rings of Power, wrap up the PPP plays, get the moots going, write a sequel to the book, all of those things that's only because of your support. So when you join, you also get things like Episode Postscripts, you can get an ad, free episode feed, free merch and more.

[B]

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[A]

And don't forget to rate and review on Apple Podcasts and Spotify. And please recommend us to your friends, which you can do now directly in Spotify.

[B]

Okay, well, I think we need to get back into the story, Alan. So do you want to take us back in?

[A]

I do, and this is maybe the section that my heart just sort of aches the most for. There's some lines in here that are heartbreakingly poignant, but we'll get to that. Just giving you all a preview. All right. Riding one day in the forests of the Westlands, he saw a woman whose dark hair flowed in the wind, and about her was a green cloak clasped at the throat with a bright jewel. And he took her for one of the Eldar who came at times to those parts of the island. But she approached, and he knew her for Orendus, and saw that the jewel was the one that he had given her. Her. Then suddenly he knew in himself the love that he bore her, and he felt the emptiness of his days. Irendus, seeing him, turned pale and would ride off, but he was too quick, and he said too well, have I deserved that you should flee from me, who have fled so often and so far, but forgive me and stay now. They rode then together to the house of Bedgar, her father. And there Aldarion made plain his desire for betrothal to Arendus. But now Arendus was reluctant, though according to custom and the life of her people, it was now full time for her marriage. Her love for him was not lessened, nor did she retreat out of guile. But she feared now in her heart that in the war between herself and the sea, for the keeping of Eldarion, she would not conquer her. Never would Orendus take less, that she might not Lose all. And fearing the sea and begrudging to all ships the felling of trees which she loved, she determined that she must utterly defeat the sea and the ships, or else be herself defeated utterly. But Aldarion wooed Arendus in earnest, and wherever she went, he would go. He neglected the havens and the shipyards and all the concerns of the Guild of Venturers, felling no trees, but setting himself to their planting only. And he found more contentment in those days than in any others of his life, though he did not know it until he looked back long after, when old age was upon him. At length, he sought to persuade Arundus to sail with him on a voyage about the island in the ship Eambar. For 100 years had now passed since Eldarion founded the Guild Adventurers and feasts were to be held in all the havens of Numenor. To this Arrindus consented, concealing her distaste and fear. And they departed from Romenna and came to Andunie in the west of the isle.

[B]

What you couldn't see was me rolling my eyes through most of that.

[A]

Or nodding violently, or shaking your head violently, all of the things.

[B]

Because there is a lot to unpack. In this reading. There is, oh, so much. We get the not quite barren moment of Eldarion riding around doing his forestry check in the Westlands when he spots somebody. Now, she's not dancing in the forest, but she has long flowing dark hair, a green cloak and a bright jewel. Aldarion literally thinks she's an elf at first.

[A]

Reminder, folks, elves are beautiful.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

I mean, what he's seeing here is a person of incredible beauty and grace. And so much so that he thinks she's one of the Eldar. I also want to remind you he's been gone for nearly 20 years, so he probably doesn't recognize her anymore. I mean, come on, man. Yeah, but as she gets closer, indeed he recognizes her. Hey, it's Horrendous. Oh, hey, that's that, that beautiful bright jewel. That's the big diamond that I inappropriately gave her about 25 years before.

[B]

25 years ago, yeah, because in the text it does not say that when he came back, had a great blow up with his father, turned around and left again. It doesn't say that in that gap he saw Horrendous.

[A]

At know, we don't have no idea whether he communicated with her at all. He might have been there a week, who knows, probably longer than that. But you know.

[B]

Yeah, yeah. And now and again, I'm Just breathing in and out. 45 years after meeting her, he realizes that he loves her. Isn't that nice?

[A]

Isn't that. Now, again, 45 years, that's probably the equivalent of about. Because they're both adults when they started this, it's about two or three years, but that's still a long time, you know? That's a long time. Yeah.

[B]

Anyway, this small line is quite telling. Quote, he felt the emptiness of his days.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Yeah. You want to hold on to that line? Keep it in mind as we keep going through this section.

[A]

Please do. It's so important, Arendus, though, we're going to switch to her position first. Right. She has a very different reaction than Eldarion. Her reaction is to go white as a ghost and bail. I'm out of here.

[B]

Oh, I don't blame her.

[A]

And I want to ask, can we safely assume that word of his return has reached her by now? I mean, she's not laboring under the impression that he's been dead for a decade. She's got to know he's been alive.

[B]

Oh, yeah, I would imagine so, because, yeah, he's the king's heir. So the news would have gone around the island because everybody was like, oh, no, Eldarion might be dead. And now he's not dead. And so the news would have gone out. And also, it doesn't tell us how long it's been since he got back, but the hint in the text is that it's been quite a while. He's been doing a lot of stuff.

[A]

Yeah, he's been trying to do the forestry thing.

[B]

Right, Right. So he's not been back a week or anything. He's been back months at least. Ooh, yeah, I know that's gonna sting.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

So, of course, that would mean she knows that he's alive.

[A]

Yep.

[B]

And he just hasn't bothered to look for her.

[A]

Yeah. So either one of those is bad. Either he's back and he hasn't bothered to look for me because he's too proud to look for me. Right. That's what the text tells us earlier. Or he's dead. I mean, I know which one I'm voting for, but. Yeah.

[B]

Yeah. But neither of these is a pleasant thought for her, is it? None of this is going to be good.

[A]

As we'll learn later, it's impossible for her to turn off her love for him. Right. That's something we'll. So he keeps her from running off, and he begins what appears to be a sincere and genuine apology. He starts off by saying, look, this is what I deserve. You're running from me, I get that because I've done that. I have fled from you to the sea, over and over. I totally deserve you running away from me.

[B]

Well, he's not wrong here.

[A]

He's not wrong. He asked for her forgiveness and I have to say this followed with the fact that he was chastened in mood just a little while ago. I mean, within a three paragraph span we get chastened in mood and asking for forgiveness. That's some growth. It's not enough yet, but it's some growth. Yeah, we'll see if it sticks. And he asks her to stay around.

[B]

So they ride back to her father's house where Aldarion. And one might put the word finally in here. But yeah, that would be premature. He makes it clear that he wants to marry Arendis.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Now this is sometime after his return in 843, but it's before 8:50 as we'll see coming up. But that does leave us quite a little gap in there.

[A]

It does, it does, yeah.

[B]

And now it's horrendous. Who, who quite understandably is a bit hesitant. I mean, sure, she really should be married by now according to custom and the life of her people.

[A]

That's true. I mean, if you recall what we read in the Nature of Middle Earth in the lives of the Numenoreans. Thus a Numenorean woman might marry when 20 marriage before full growth was not permitted. But most usually she Married at about 40 to 45 years, age 24 to 25. And that's pretty much right about where she's at. Not the text goes on. Marriage was considered unduly delayed in her case if postponed much beyond her 95th year, which is a calculated age of about 35.

[B]

Right, yeah. And again, we don't know exactly what year this part of the story is taking place, but it is after 843 and before 8:50. So if we guesstimate 845, Irendis is 74.

[A]

She's even older than I thought. I think if she's in her 50s or 60s. No, she's 70.

[B]

She's in her 70s. So we are well past the age where women usually married and we're getting dangerously close to that unduly delayed stage.

[A]

Yes, we are. Oh my goodness.

[B]

She is genuinely concerned though she's not hesitating in order to play games with him.

[A]

No.

[B]

And she does still love him. The text says her love was not lessened. No, she's rightly afraid that she will lose the war for Eldarion's heart to the sea. And she's not wrong.

[A]

Yeah, honey, you're right. I just want to tell her, you know what?

[B]

Run. Run, babe, run.

[A]

You can't win this battle. You just can't win this battle. For good or for ill. Though her position is clear, I am not going to take less than 100%, because if I take 90%, I'm going to lose that 90%. I have to have 100% of him or I will lose 100% of him. And not only does she have problems with the sea and its hold on Aldarian, again, with good reason, I thought. This is interesting to note. She seems to also have some pretty significant ethical issues with the nature of shipbuilding because of her love for trees.

[B]

Absolutely. And as a result of these two things combined with her all or nothing approach to Eldarion, she decides that it's now essentially a battle to the death with the sea and with sailing itself.

[A]

You're gonna lose that.

[B]

I cannot blame her.

[A]

No, I can't. But you're gonna lose that battle every time.

[B]

She is gonna lose that battle. She 100% is. Is. But, you know, I can understand her point of view.

[A]

Oh, yeah.

[B]

Aldarion has spent how many years of the last 33 abroad?

[A]

Virtually half of his adult life so far.

[B]

Okay. I can understand why she might want him to commit utterly to her because she is not unnaturally and not wrongly foreseeing him beggaring off again.

[A]

Yeah, yeah.

[B]

And saying, well, I want to go back to sea. And she doesn't want to go to sea with him. She hates the sea.

[A]

She hates the sea, as we'll see later. She has to hide her disgust, you know, I mean, which. That may not have been a good thing. We'll get to that. So the narrative at this point brings us back to Aldarian, right? We get his deeds and his own thoughts here. And he is said to have wooed horrendous in earnest. And I like this because, again, we talked about Tolkien's specificity with words. It's not he appeared to woo Erendis in earnest. It's not even. It is said that he wooed her in earnest. And it's certainly not that sort of Melkor reminder. He feigned, even to himself, that he was earnest in his wooing. You know, Tolkien's careful with his words. Aldarian's efforts here to show his love for Orendus have to be interpreted as 100% genuine, maybe also 100% temporary. Short lived. I'm not trying to say that he's fully turned a new leaf, but he really is genuinely trying to win her heart. He follows her everywhere. Presumably she's okay with that, because I don't want to read this as stalking.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

I see this more as he's just. Yeah. Otherwise, I don't think that's happening, just to be clear.

[B]

Otherwise, I'm going to start renaming him Tar Red Flag.

[A]

Tar Red. He already is Tar Red Flag.

[B]

He really is. Yes, indeed.

[A]

That's Tar restraining order you're talking about.

[B]

Yeah. I also wonder how much his sudden love for her is born out of the fact that she wasn't sitting waiting in our Menelaus for him.

[A]

Yeah. But I also. Yeah, I have to take the words literally. When he realizes the emptiness of his days, I feel like that's such a moment of we're really getting into Eldarion's heart here. And for this moment, again, I think we all know this goes away. He realizes that, my goodness, as much as I've loved the sea, I have missed out. I have missed out. And I'm going to grab this opportunity with both hands. And again, this is just sort of. You know, we talked before kind of jokingly about Mineldor just diving into his hobby of astronomy. Right. I'm going to build an observatory. I'm going to be Stargazer, you know, Heaven King, whatever. That's going to be my name, Aldarius. And I'm not only going to be a sailor, I'm going to start a guild and I'm going to build the biggest ships ever. It's sort of that same thing taken to a relationship. I messed this up. I'm going to go into this hundred percent. I'm going to do this. And of course, his attention will, you know, flit away later. But he's 100% in right now.

[B]

Right.

[A]

It's just that it's only right now. And that's the problem.

[B]

Yeah, it is. And it's also possibly. I mean, not to say that you're wrong, because I don't think you're wrong, but to add into this, he's talking about the emptiness of his days. He's not on a ship right now. He is wandering around.

[A]

That's a very good point.

[B]

So maybe part of his days feeling empty because he is not currently off sailing.

[A]

That's a great catch. You wonder, would he ever think about the emptiness of his days while he is at sea? We're never told that he does or does not. So you make a good point. Now, I think you're right, by the way. You were very. It was very wise of you to say I wasn't wrong. Not because I'm right, because I'm not necessarily, but because. And I want our listeners to understand this. You and I are just discussing this because it's good to discuss. There is no explicit right or wrong here as to what Tolkien is trying to. And that's what I want folks to take away from that part of the conversation is Tolkien has, as we've pointed out before, giving us the right and the wrong in both of these people. There are moments of good in Aldarian and moments of good in Orendus. There are moments of foolishness in both of them. I think we're going to see horrendous mistakes more later on.

[B]

Oh, yes.

[A]

Whereas right now we're seeing a lot of Aldarians. So I think that's fair to say. But I just. For those of you who have never read this story before and are finally becoming familiar with it through our conversation, Sar and I may disagree on some things. That's totally fine. And I just want to make sure you guys know there is no explicit way of reading Aldarian and Arendus the way Tolkien wrote it, because he wrote it amorphously on purpose. And we should take that very much. So. So continue. I just want to point that out.

[B]

No, it's a really good point to make. I think it's very important when it comes to both Aldarion and Arendus, your mileage may vary.

[A]

Well, that's a way to put it. Yeah.

[B]

Okay. So you were talking about how him wandering around following her like a faithful puppy was not necessarily stalking.

[A]

Hopefully not.

[B]

I read this part about him sort of abandoning his job as abdicating responsibility. But look carefully and remember what his jobs are. Lord of the Ships and Havens, Captain of the Guild Adventurers and Master of the Forests. Now reread this. He does, in fact, ignore his job as the Lord of the Ships and Havens and his role as Captain of the Guild Adventurers. But he very much steps into his role as Master of the Forests.

[A]

He really does. And I have to say, this is. You know, I told you there was a moment here that I thought was one of the most heartbreakingly poignant lines. And it's coming up. This is huge. It's in setting a side. The things that Horrendous fears the most, the sea and the ships, while simultaneously embracing the things that she loves the most, the trees and forests. It's in doing that that he finds contentment. This is a guy who's probably never been fully content his entire life, but he finds contentment in this. And I have to say, I'm not sure there are any more subtly heartbreaking lines than the one immediately following it where we learned that he did not know it until he looked back long after when old age was upon him.

[B]

I mean, yikes.

[A]

Oh, that just. I mean, look, I know we can't ever know for sure that Time X was our best time. I could look back on a particular period of time, I could say, oh, 1986 was so great, you know, best year of my life. But I don't know that for sure because I haven't lived all the years of my life. So there is that aspect of. Of. Only old age can give us the benefit of knowing which was truly the best. But we should know contentment in the moment. We should know I am content. I am more content than I have ever been while we're experiencing that contentment. And it's so sad to me that it takes Aldarian decades, arguably another century or more, before he realizes that was. Was the time in my life I was most content.

[B]

Especially when you remember that this is decades past them being thoroughly estranged.

[A]

Oh yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean, because, yeah, their estrangement is coming up not too far. And for. For him to realize this long after reuniting with her is. Is not even an option. In fact, he might not have realized this until after she had passed because he lived. Lived for another hundred years long past her death. So that is just. You ache, but you also keep wanting to slap him. Oh, I mean, that doesn't stop just because you feel bad for him here too. You still want to smack him upside the head for sure.

[B]

Yeah, I mean, I do feel a little bit for Aeldarion here because it turns out that the years where he was most content weren't the ones spent at sea with the boys. They were actually spent planting trees and showing Arendis how much he loves her.

[A]

Isn't that amazing? I mean, setting aside those things you think you loved and doing the things that it turns out brought you the most contentment. I just want to throttle him. Like, dude, wake up.

[B]

I do. But I mean, let's face it, Eldarion, he is a literal grown up here, right?

[A]

Very much so.

[B]

But he seems to have very little insight into his own own self. He seems to have very little self recognition.

[A]

The man needs therapy. He needs a good long session of therapy. Yeah, just to Understand himself. I'm not saying he needs to fix things. I mean, he does. But just understand. Just know thyself, man.

[B]

Yeah, right. Because he just. He's happy in this moment, but he doesn't seem to recognize the depth of his happiness.

[A]

No.

[B]

And he doesn't seem. Or the closet at which he sits down over a glass of wine and says, oh, you know what? This is really great.

[A]

Yeah, I'm really happy. And look, I'm not at sea. I'm not with my buddies. I'm not with the frat boys. You know, I'm not off cutting trees down. I'm actually planting trees and spending time with the woman I love. How much better can it get?

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Well, he starts to mess it up almost straight away.

[A]

Way a little bit. I. I think at this point his. His intent is still there. But yeah, I think he might be a little clueless. We'll talk about that.

[B]

Because after all this time earnestly wooing Arendus, he decides he wants to take her on a cruise. Now, I'm trying to give him the benefit of the doubt.

[A]

I believe you, Sarah.

[B]

And not believe that he's well aware of her dislike of the sea. But you know what? I think she would have made it fairly clear. Because it does say in the text earlier that most of the women of.

[A]

Numenor loathed the sea or didn't love it as much. Was it loathe?

[B]

Well, it doesn't.

[A]

It was clear that they didn't.

[B]

But they didn't like it. Yeah, they didn't like it.

[A]

That's true. She will make it clear later.

[B]

But yeah, I mean, for now he does. For now he does.

[A]

Doesn't know. We could put that in air quotes, I suppose.

[B]

Exactly. But I think this goes a long way towards telling us. Again, this is a man not given to self reflection.

[A]

No. It's now the year second age. 850. 50. And by the way, you all know I'm not here to defend Aldarian.

[B]

I'm the one who just said exactly. When we get to some of her.

[A]

Choices later, we will. We will definitely, yeah, take our turns, you know, smacking that pinata like we do the feanor one. A hundred years after he found out the Guild Adventures in SA750. That is how we can pin this on the timeline. Right. That's how we know all of this wooing took place between 843. When he came back back and 850. And that's why we were estimating that 845 to 850, period. Because he'd been back long enough to sort of start his job as the Master of Forest before he sought her out. But here it is. 8:50. The guild is going to have a series of parties in the harbor. So he wants her to come along to a feast.

[B]

Yes. Come to a party. Baby on board ship. It's not her dream date.

[A]

No.

[B]

Right. And she has to. The text tell us. Hide her distaste and fear.

[A]

And that's where I want to say, maybe you could have said something like, yes, just say. And even though you're willing to do it, like, say, I need you to know I don't really like to see. In fact, I'm kind of afraid of it. But I'm going to do this for you. I want to honor you. I want to, you know, accept your invitation and do this thing that you want to do. I just need you to know the sacrifice I'm making. And then that way he can decide. Oh, okay. Well, then we'll just take horses. Or okay, we'll just do this one cruise. But, you know, we won't do it again. I mean, communicate. Right.

[B]

Communication. Communication. Pinpointed it. Yes.

[A]

What we have here is a failure to communicate. Communicate.

[B]

Yeah. You have absolutely hit the heart of the problem between Aldarion and Arendis.

[A]

So much unspoken. So much unspoken.

[B]

Again, you can decide, listeners, which one of these two you think is the biggest Egypt of all.

[A]

Egypt. Yeah. This isn't about which one isn't an idiot.

[B]

No, no, no, no.

[A]

Which one's the biggest?

[B]

No, they are both, clearly. But the main problem here is that they don't communicate. And this is not the only time. And we failed to communicate before this. Eldarion turns up with a great big diamond and fails to tell her this is not an engagement present.

[A]

Yeah, right.

[B]

He beggars off for 19 years and fails to tell her that, you know, I'm really not interested in. Might want to go and find.

[A]

I don't want to get bound.

[B]

Yeah, yeah. And then Arendis says, okay, I'll come on a boating date. And fails to tell him how much she dislikes and fears.

[A]

Distaste and fear. Yeah.

[B]

Sigh.

[A]

I know. So she agrees and they go all the way around the island, starting from Romenda, which lays at the head of the firth between Orostar and Hierostar. Remember? Look, take a look at the map of Numenor. It's a. It's a star, right? It's shaped like a star and it's got these five little promontories and orostar and hiarostar mean eastlands and southeast lands respectively. So that's on the east side of the island. And they sail all the way to Andunier on the western end of Anderstar, which is the westlands. So if you look at the map of the island and you look at the scale and you remember that it is twice the size of the island of Great Britain. And they have to go all the way out that first before they can start to go around. We're talking about a really long voyage. Somewhere in the neighborhood of 2000-2500 miles. That's a long voyage. This is taking them a day, this isn't taking them a week. This is a long trip.

[B]

But definitely being quicker by horse.

[A]

Very much so. And a lot shorter in distance because you're cutting across the middle of the star instead of going all the way around the firth, all the way around the tip of the northern one and all the way to the end of the western one.

[B]

I mean, poor Horrendous. I mean, I can't imagine she's been on board ship very often in her life. If at all before this.

[A]

If at all. Yeah.

[B]

And the very first voyage, 2,000 plus miles.

[A]

I mean, that's the thing you think about. Oh, Romena to Andunie. It's not that big a deal. It's from the west side of the island or east side to the west side. But look at the map, folks. That's a long journey when you realize just how big that island is.

[B]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. And then in the part that we had to skip because we can't read everything, they get there and they meet with Valandil, the lord of Andunier. In fact, he's the first Lord of Andunier, actually, because Valandil was born in second age 630. So he's 70 years Aldarion's senior and is his first cousin because his mother, Silmarion is the sister of Tarmen Eldr, Aldarion's father.

[A]

Right. And should be queen.

[B]

Should be queen. That's a whole other story.

[A]

Valandil should be the king's heir. Yeah.

[B]

Wouldn't it have been different if only you wonder?

[A]

I've always thought that's an interesting question. Like, was the fall just something that was inevitable, that was going to happen eventually, at some point maybe that would have delayed it? I don't know.

[B]

I don't know either. But I love the idea that things could have been really different if they just done the right thing and allowed Silmarian to be queen.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Because let's face it, her line turns out to be the good line.

[A]

The very good line. Absolutely. And we only know that in hindsight, of course. But, you know, sort of the way things work. Yeah.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

So Valandil, good guy, holds a feast for his Cousin on the 100th anniversary of the founding of the Guild Adventures. And he's just trying to be a nice guy. He offers a toast to Hirendas, this beautiful young lady. Remember, he's an old guy, right? He's 70 years older than Eldarion. He calls her Uaneniel, which means daughter of Uinen and the new lady of the Sea.

[B]

Yikes. Big yikes.

[A]

Social faux pas. Yeah.

[B]

Oh dear. I mean, poor guy. He's not to know that, is he? But you can just imagine how well that went over. Well, in fact, you don't have to imagine. The text tells us it says that Arendus was sitting next to Valandil's, of course, unnamed wife.

[A]

I knew you'd point that out. Yeah.

[B]

And has thoughts on this. Yeah, right. Yeah, she rejects that name completely. And she doesn't just think reject it.

[A]

No, she. Oh, she says it. Absolutely.

[B]

She says it with her whole chest. Not only saying she is no daughter of the Maia, but going so far as to name Uinen her foe.

[A]

That's a bold move. I'm gonna name a Maya spirit, somebody that everybody on the island of Numenor almost worships. My foe.

[B]

Particularly a mariner.

[A]

Yeah, all the Mariners, dude, she's probably gonna marry.

[B]

I wonder what Aldarion made.

[A]

I know she does say this with her whole chest, but you also wonder. It's a party. Does she just kind of lean over to Valandil's wife and said, I am no daughter of oh, she's my foe and only the wife heard it. Or does she stand up and slam her goblet to the table and say, don't you dare, Valandil. I am no daughter of that woman. Woman. She is my.

[B]

Imagine just how suddenly quiet the party gets when she says this.

[A]

And Andarian's like, don't know who that is. Awkward moment. Yeah.

[B]

Oh boy.

[A]

Oh yeah.

[B]

It doesn't make it clear if she says this out loud for the entire party to hear or if it was just like said to the person sitting.

[A]

Next to her, which I, I, I mean, realistically, probably that, yes, because she's not somebody who typically boldly stands up and says her things yet. She will be, she will become that. But I mean, this is the same woman who didn't want to say I don't like the sea. I'd really rather not take a ship.

[B]

Right.

[A]

She hides that. And this is sort of a political thing because it's the Lords of Andunier. This is. You know, I feel like she probably would have been quiet about it, but part of me wants to have her stand up, slam the goblets on the table and feel like I'm awful.

[B]

I think you're right. I don't think at this stage of horrendous life, this is something she would have done. It's. It feels like she's confiding in the wife of Valandil, who probably has some.

[A]

Sympathy in that regard. And we don't know anything about Vallandil's sailings or anything, but the women of Numenor do not particularly like the sea because the sea takes their men away from them.

[B]

Yeah. On the other hand, I mean, let's not forget this story was written down a long, long time after it happened. So somebody reported what she saw.

[A]

That's true. Vallandil's unnamed wife at least said something about it. That's true. Oh, man. Well, speaking of awkward moments, we've got a hard talk coming up. Sarah, would you take us through the next part of the reading?

[B]

Aldarion returned to Arendus and besought her to be betrothed. Yet still she delayed, saying, I have journeyed with you by ship. Lord. Before I give you my answer, will you not journey with me ashore to the places that I love? You know too little of this land. Land for one who shall be its king. Therefore they departed together and came to Emeri, where were rolling downs of grass. And it was the chief place of sheep pasturage in Numenor. And they saw the white houses of the farmers and shepherds and heard the bleating of the flocks there. Arendis spoke to Aldarion and said, here could I be at ease. You shall dwell where you will as wife of the king's heir, said Aeldarion, and as queen in many fair houses such as you desire. When you are king, I shall be old, said Arendis. Where will the king's heir dwell? Meanwhile with his wife, said Aldarion. When his labours allow, if she cannot share in them, I will not share my husband with the Lady Uanen, said Arendes. That is a twisted saying, said Aeldarian. As well might I say that I would not share my wife with the Lord Orame of Forests, because she loves trees that grow wild. Indeed you would not, said Arendes for you would fell any wood as a gift to Ooinen if you had a mind. Name any tree that you love and it shall stand till it dies, said Aldarion. I love all that grow in this isle, said Arendes.

[A]

This check and mate.

[B]

Oh, boy.

[A]

This game gets. Yeah. I mean, we can point to the errors and the tactical mistakes, but yeah, let's.

[B]

Oh, my goodness, yes.

[A]

So after this cruise on Amar and the feast where she was very much against her desire, named Uaneniel, Arendus is hit with a wave of doubt. But it isn't just these moments, like being called the daughter of Oonin, that lead her to doubt. It's because Aldarion has stopped doing what he'd been doing during the earnest wooing of the last reading.

[B]

Yeah, I mean, remember, he'd neglected the havens and the shipyards and focused on replanting trees only. Well, that is now over. He's back to working at Romenna, building up the harbour again with big sea walls, and even building what appears to be a lighthouse on the isle of Tol uin.

[A]

Remember that Tol Unen is an island that lies in the Firth of Romenda, so it's certainly a logical place to build a lighthouse. I know the text doesn't say it's explicitly a lighthouse, but come on, it's a tall tower and it's called the Light Tower, so you don't need me to make a picture more than that. Yeah.

[B]

Huh. But as he shifts his focus back to the sea and to ships, Irendes is feeling those fears come back into the picture. Defeat the sea utterly or else be defeated utterly.

[A]

I think we're going to see that line come back in our minds over and over again. That is her mindset. It is exactly what fuels so much of the conflict going forward for her from her perspective.

[B]

I agree. I mean, to his credit, Aldarion isn't said to stay doing these tasks for years or anything. He does the job, then he comes back to Arendus and again looking to become betrothed.

[A]

Yeah, yeah. I mean, he comes back and pops the question. She holds off on a decision. And I love this. Not out of like any sort of malice or, you've made me wait, so I'm going to make you wait. She just says, you know what? I've done this thing that you wanted me to do, I've gone with you on Aombar on that long journey. I want you to come now to the place I love, you know, and reminding him, and maybe this was a Tactical error. Maybe it wasn't. She's certainly right though, that he doesn't seem to know much about the actual. I don't know, land or. He's going to be killing king. He's been gone so many times for so long. And even when he's back, he's almost exclusively focused on the harbors and ships. Not on the land of Numenor itself, let alone its people.

[B]

Indeed. So they head inland to her home region of Emeriae. And that's an inland region in the central part of Numenor, the Mittalmar. Composed of rolling grassy hills where the sheep of Numenor are pastured. And we get this brief but telling conversation.

[A]

She almost did that during your reading.

[B]

Anything.

[A]

Like we've never done like, you know, what am I looking for? You know, sort of ambience and things. But they heard the bleeding of the flocks. I had to fight every bit of my self control, you know, I would.

[B]

Have coaxed if you'd done it.

[A]

It's like, I can't do that to Sarah. I just can't do it.

[B]

So you waited until afterwards.

[A]

Exactly. Exactly. It's. It's discussion now. It's a little more appropriate. Yeah.

[B]

Anyway, sheep aside, we get this brief but telling conversation between Aldarion and Arendes now.

[A]

That's right. I mean, seriously, by the way, if you were to compare to the. The wailing of the gulls. I know which sound I'm picking and it ain't the gulls. I mean, I much prefer the sound of the sheep. Yeah, same the smell of neither, frankly. But that's not the point. So Arrendus is pointing out. Look, this. This is the kind of place I would enjoy. Away from the bustle of the port cities. Right. That's one of the things we saw specifically she didn't like was the busyness of the port. It's away from the sea, it's in the green hills of the countryside. It's on the. You know, they're not like on the slopes of the Menel Tarma. But this is the Mittelmar. It's a higher region. The airs are different. This is just a beautiful, quiet, restful place.

[B]

Right. And on the surface, Aadarion appears to want to give her what she wants. He says, you can live wherever you want as my wife now and after, I'm the king. But yeah, does he really. I mean, is he really listening? I don't think he's really hearing what she's saying.

[A]

This feels like overcoming an obstacle. This feels like A salesman trying to make the clothes right. You know, this is. Oh, you know, you're gonna get whatever you want. Say yes, I've asked you to marry me.

[B]

Yes. You know, you can have as many houses as you want. Of course, most of them are in Armenolos, but hey, I know. Honestly, I don't think through most of this conversation that either is actually hearing the other.

[A]

Exactly. I was gonna say because it starts out as him not hearing her, but I think she doesn't hear him very well either.

[B]

No, no. Neither of them are really listening. They're both saying things. They're both responding probably in the ways that they think. Okay, this is my response now to what's being said. But they're not listening to each other.

[A]

No, they're not. They're certainly not understanding each other.

[B]

No, exactly. And she also raises a really good point. By the time he becomes king, I shall be old. She says.

[A]

You know, she's not wrong. I want to discuss this real quick and do the maths. Notice, by the way, I said maths. That's a weird word for me. I'm trying, I'm trying to.

[B]

Yeah, yeah.

[A]

It's the adaptive next.

[B]

Or is there a line?

[A]

There might be a line. It's an H shaped line. It's the. That's the. So Elas was 442 and he died. Vardimir passed authority to his son Amandil right away because he was 381. So Amandil took the throne at 250. This is what I want to look at. Amandil the second, in effect King, was 250 when he became the king. His son Elendil ascended at 240. His son Meneldur ascended at the relatively young age of 193. So even if Aldarien took the throne at the age of 200, barely older than Meneldur was, but certainly younger than either of the two previous kings, let's say he did that in SA 900. Horrendous would already be 129, which is around the 46 equivalent for a standard Numenorean. But we also remember she's pure blood descent in the shorter lived House of Beor. So probably closer to the equivalent of 50. So I'm not so sure. Maybe a little bit more. But I'm not so sure I want to hear her say I shall be old when she's talking about an age that's still younger than me. But let's be honest.

[B]

Passing over that.

[A]

Yeah, passing over that. She's Right. She's certainly right when it comes to, like, the prime of her life.

[B]

Yes, yes.

[A]

She's certainly her childhood beyond that.

[B]

That. Yes. Yeah. And of course, the older you get, your priorities change. Right?

[A]

Absolutely.

[B]

So she's not going to want to be the pomp and circumstance queen. She's going to be wanting to live somewhere quiet where she can enjoy the remainder of her years. You know, that sort of thing.

[A]

So it's not an unreasonable thing.

[B]

Yeah. She's asking the questions that she should be asking.

[A]

She is asking the right question. Right.

[B]

But Aeldarion isn't listening. Listening.

[A]

No, he's not.

[B]

No. Because she follows that up with an important question to ask of the man who claims to want to marry you. Where will you want to live before you become king? And that is important because she suspects, and she's probably right, that he wants to live on the coast.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Right. But obviously, if they get married, say, now. Ish.

[A]

He'd want to live on the ship if he could.

[B]

Yeah. If they get married sort of nowish, then there's going to be a whole lot of years of being married before he becomes king. What are you going to do in that time?

[A]

And in theory, that's also the time when they would have kids. So it's hugely important to ask this question. Where will we raise a family? Is what she is asking.

[B]

Exactly. Exactly. I mean, he'd have to reside in our mental loss once he becomes king.

[A]

Right, Right.

[B]

So she's really. She's asking what the next 50 years or so would be like. That's not a small amount of time.

[A]

No, no, it's not at all.

[B]

No.

[A]

Where are we going to live?

[B]

Yeah, exactly. And he doesn't exactly answer.

[A]

No.

[B]

He doesn't name a place.

[A]

No.

[B]

Only that he would live with her, presumably wherever she wanted when his labors allow, if she cannot share in them.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

Goodness. There's a lot of heavy lifting being done in that.

[A]

Yeah. There's two things there. So we've got the condition, the condition that he would live with her when his labors would allow, and then the condition to that if she can't share in those labors. Let's talk about both of those parts.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

The idea that she could or would share in his work, but also the idea that he would live with her only when his work permitted. Priorities of a married couple need to be different than the priorities of these two single people.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

And I think he's not getting that.

[B]

No, No. I think he wants to be married to Arenda. This, but have exactly the same life and choices and freedoms as he does now.

[A]

Yeah. You don't mind if we have an air and a spare? As long as I can still spend the rest of my life at sea. Right. You don't have a problem with that, do you?

[B]

Fine. Won't you?

[A]

You're always welcome to come aboard.

[B]

Yeah, yeah, exactly. I mean, you can share in all of my voyages. It would be lovely.

[A]

Yeah. It'd be great to have you on board with me. Are you kidding? Are you kidding, Sir?

[B]

That's the problem. He isn't.

[A]

No, she's actually dead serious. Yeah.

[B]

He is 100% serious when he's saying to her, I will do this, I will do that, and these conditionals that he's putting into that sentence.

[A]

Win his labors if she can.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Wow. You're not kidding about the heavy lifting. Oh, man.

[B]

Yeah. So this is what I mean by there's things being said here, but none of it is communication.

[A]

Yeah. Yeah. I mean, when is labor's allow is such a broad exception? It could mean none of the time at all.

[B]

Yeah. I mean, you might as well say when I feel like it.

[A]

Yes, thank you. That's exactly what he's saying. When I deign to live with you, when I dance to leave the sea, when I get tired of the sea, I'll come and spend some time with you and then I'll go back.

[B]

Wouldn't that be nice?

[A]

Because that's my work.

[B]

Lucky, lucky woman.

[A]

Because I should grace you with my presence once a day. Yeah. Now, the next part of this exchange is where things start to get testy. Right?

[B]

Now, putting it one way.

[A]

Yeah. I mean, Orendis is the one who fires the first shot. Right. I am not going to share you with Uinen. And again we come back either defeat the sea utterly or be utterly defeated. Keep remind. Keep reminding yourself of that, folks. Because that is absolutely the driving element here in everything she does.

[B]

Absolutely. Now, Aldarion's analogy to Orame, in response to what she says, it might not be entirely without merit. Jumps to that defense immediately.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

Rather than acknowledge Arendus valid concern is par for the course.

[A]

Yeah, very much so. It is. That's the thing. I mean, he makes a point. It's not a very good point because the analogy to Orame draws an equivalency between her love of the trees and his love of the sea. And you could make that argument say she loves the trees as much as he loves the sea. The problem is she doesn't go around spending 15 years wandering around a forest while a Darien sits around on his hands.

[B]

Exactly.

[A]

That's a huge, huge, huge difference.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

She can go into the forest and come back that night. He goes off in the sea. He's gone for years.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

It's crazy.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

So he's completely missed the point.

[B]

Same.

[A]

No, yes, totally missing the point.

[B]

Yeah. One of these things is not like the other.

[A]

Not at all. This isn't apples and oranges. This is apples and bread rolls. I mean, we're not even talking, you know, or apples and rocks, you know.

[B]

Yes, indeed. So I mean this becomes not so much a conversation, more a kind of shots fired, right?

[A]

Yeah, very much so. Yeah. She bites right back, doesn't she?

[B]

Yeah, she bites right back. You'd cut a tree down to give to your mistress the sea.

[A]

Yep.

[B]

Okay, well she's not wrong cuz that's indeed what he has done many times. And so he tries a last ditch effort to keep himself seeming noble.

[A]

I love that. This is exactly, that is exactly what he's doing. He's wanting to make himself look like the good guy. Oh, name a tree that shall live forever.

[B]

Oh good Lord.

[A]

The cringe.

[B]

It is so cringe. Because it's meaningless.

[A]

It is, it's utterly meaningless.

[B]

It is totally meaningless. Point to one tree and you can have that one till it dies. Well, thanks. So not the point.

[A]

So not the point. And so I love what her response is because like you said, this has now been a battle and of shots fired. And her shots fired is. Oh really? Oh, name a tree and it'll. I love them all. Stop cutting all of them down. Which I want to remind you folks, is exactly what he was doing when he was the most content in his life. He'd stopped cutting them down and was focused only on replanting them. And that's when he was the happiest. Gosh, that's just.

[B]

Oh, if he just indulged in a bit of self reflection.

[A]

Just think it through me man. Stop cutting them down. And. And yet at the same time, because she's, she's not communicating with clarity. She's not. She's just doing these as shots fired. She's not having a dialogue. Partly because he's not willing to, but also because I don't think she's willing to. Right. She. This is defeat the sea utterly or be utterly defeated. It is all or nothing horrendous.

[B]

Yeah, she's going about it the wrong way though.

[A]

She is. She's going about it the wrong way. And that's the. That that's we're starting to see her flaws, if you want to call them that, or her weakness, her weak spots.

[B]

They're both filled with pride, just in different ways.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

And for both of them, this means that they're not willing to, you know, sit down and tell each other what they're actually thinking. So if Horrendous had stopped right here and said, okay, okay, okay, so let's start off. This is becoming a bit of an argument and I don't want an argument. But here's the thing. Thing. All right, here is what I fear.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

This is what I'm worried about if we get married. What I'm really worried about is that you're going to go away for another 20 years and leave me alone. And I don't want to be alone with possibly bringing up the kids on my own. All of these things she does not say to him, these are my fears. This is why I feel this way. Because those fears are legitimate.

[A]

Oh, yeah.

[B]

You know, this is what he's proved to her all along is what he's going to do to just get on board ship and beg her off for 15 years.

[A]

He was gone for 26 out of 33 years.

[B]

Right. So she hasn't got a lot of evidence to say that he'll behave in any other way just because he's married to her. Right, Right. But they don't have this conversation.

[A]

No, she doesn't want to. Yeah. She doesn't say, this is what I fear. Can you assuage this fear? Can you address this? Can you at least first of all tell me that you hear me? Me.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And that you understand?

[B]

Yeah. You know, but neither does Aldarion.

[A]

No, he doesn't.

[B]

He's not, he's not honest with her. No, he isn't saying to her, look, I can't promise you I'm never going to go back to sea because the sea is my great love and I will want to do that. And then they have a conversation. At which point, to be honest, two grown ups might have said, I'm not sure we're coming.

[A]

This might not work. Right.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

But you know, if you really wanted it to work, you could say, well, I would agree to travel no more than X percentage of the time.

[B]

One year out of every five.

[A]

Exactly. Something like that. Reach a compromise. Reach a compromise that works for you both.

[B]

But reach only do that when you communicate.

[A]

Thank you. Yes, you can. Oh, man. Well, folks, I got to tell you, we actually had a whole nother bullet point Ready for discussion. But we're already long enough. And it's a long discussion point, I promise you. We're going to actually move that to the next episode, which is fine, because this episode is a 10 episode journey. Who knows, maybe it'll end up being 11 episodes by the time all is said and done. But yeah, we're gonna. We're gonna set that one aside for now. So therefore they departed together and came to the Prancing Pony, where we're rolling mugs of ale. And it was the chief place of Hobbit Pasturage and Bree. Man.

[B]

That was bad.

[A]

That was bad. Sarah, what has Barliman brought for us today?

[B]

Oh, good grief. I'm sorry. I'm still, you know, wool gathering. Sorry. Yeah, that was a terrible pun.

[A]

It was. It really, really was.

[B]

Okay, so we have a really interesting question for us to address today, which is very much talking to what the sort of things are that we've been discussing during this episode. And that is. Here's the question. How does Eldarion's love for the sea conflict with his responsibilities to Numenor and his relationship with Erendis? In other words, what does this suggest about the nature of duty versus personal desire?

[A]

Oh, yeah, that's how it interferes. It's not that loving the sea is a bad thing. You could love the sea and be perfectly fine as a king. If you remember that your duty requires you to pay attention to the land.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

You know, he's got an obligation even as the king's heir, I would say to be the understudy. Right. He never knows. I mean, yes, in theory Meneldor will live to be close to 400 years old, but you never know when something might happen. I mean, it's pretty rare that they died of anything. We read that in the nature of Middle Earth that they basically very rarely died of anything other than an old age. Very much a gift of the Valar thing. But again, it's not impossible. And his job is to learn. He's the understudy. You're going to be king someday. You need to prepare for that. You need to be ready. So the day you become king, you're actually a competent one.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

So it's interfered with his preparation. I mean, we haven't even gotten to the point where he's king and seen how it's interfered with that.

[B]

Right, but it's. I mean, the rift with his father, that is not a healthy thing.

[A]

No, it's not at all.

[B]

He has demonstrated that you can rebel against the king. This is not a good thing either.

[A]

No. And it's like we talked about earlier. It's sort of opening the door for the shadow. Because that authority. We have to remember the system that Tolkien's working under here. We have a monarchy that is a good monarchy. That is a legitimate monarchy. That is a monarchy blessed by God, that ERU established this through Manwe, and therefore it is right. And that's the thing. We have to be, you know, especially those of us who. Who didn't come of age in monarchies, sort of look to monarchies and be like, what? But that's. You know, Tolkien's trying to tell us this is a righteous, you know, proper authority. So for him to do that is actually the wrong thing. Rebelling against the king isn't a teenager rebelling against his dad.

[B]

No. This is a terrible choice.

[A]

This is a terrible, terrible decision. It is an evil choice. I mean, there's no sugarcoating it. It's an evil choice to rebel against the king. King because you're rebelling against the authority of Manwe and ERU himself. I mean, it's. Yes, that's why it opens. Well, it never does. Just ask our Pharazon. Indeed, 4,000 years later. That was a bad idea.

[B]

The second part of the question was about his relationship with Orendus. And I want to address that because it's not that I think Aeldarion has a duty to Arrendis at this point, so.

[A]

That's correct.

[B]

But he does have an obligation.

[A]

That's a good way of putting it. I like that distinction.

[B]

Yeah. If you are earnestly wooing this woman, if you have asked her to marry you, then you have an obligation there. And he's not fulfilling that obligation even right now.

[A]

I would even go back in time a little further to him giving the diamond as a gift when he's not betrayed, because what he's. He's sending. You have an obligation to everybody that you communicate with to be at least honest about things. And he's not being honest. He's not being forthright. You're stringing her along, and you have an obligation to not do that. A moral obligation. So. And again, that's related to his love for the sea, because why does he turn around and leave so quickly after that journey? Because he's been punished. He's had stuff taken away from him.

[B]

Yeah. And he's stomping around like a stroppy.

[A]

Teenager as a result, like a toddler, for crying out loud. And it's.

[B]

Yeah. This is not a man who Will Brook being defied?

[A]

You could just finish the sentence that this is not a man.

[B]

Oh, well, yes. I mean, he's not. He's not to me. He is not an impressive man.

[A]

No.

[B]

You know, I think that the choices that he makes are incredibly selfish.

[A]

He's thin skinned and. And a little petty.

[B]

Oh, very much so.

[A]

You know.

[B]

Yes. Oh, well, if you won't let me have my ships in the harbor when we've come through strong winds, then I'm just leaving.

[A]

Oh, I see. Well, I might as well just say that I wouldn't share my wife with, you know, the Lord Orame. Really? That's your response to that? Not, wow, that's pretty strong. That came out of nowhere. What made you say that?

[B]

Right, but that's because an actual grown up would take a beat and go, oh, ow, ouch, that hurt. Need to talk about that. Actually, not him. He just comes back with a. Well, hell, he jumps immediately.

[A]

Exactly. Your mama jokes. He jumps to, you know, to being defensive immediately.

[B]

Yeah. I think that says a lot about his character. And that is not impressive.

[A]

No, it isn't.

[B]

No. I mean, arendes equally unimpressive in the way in which she doesn't communicate and she bites at him rather than stopping and saying, this is how I really feel. On the other hand, she is not the king in waiting.

[A]

No. And that's the thing. That's where we get back to the question that was asked, which is about, you know, this duty, this sense of, you know, the love of the sea conflicts because it stops him from doing his duty. And with Orendus, it stops him from fulfilling his obligation. First, his obligation is just a person not romantically involved, to not string her along. And now, as the intended betrothed, to communicate openly with her and to make compromises and start to build that relationship.

[B]

Relationship. Yeah.

[A]

Yeah, he does have an obligation. And later he will. Once he. Once they are wed, he will have a duty and he will also fail in that.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

So. And then we'll get to the fact that they both have the duty as parents and they really screw up.

[B]

Yes. Yeah, yeah, indeed. And that's where I really have zero patience with either of them. Because when we get to that bit, we'll put a pin in that. Because I could go on for another half an hour about the damage they do to and Calime, but we will.

[A]

Get there and the future of the kingdom as a result.

[B]

Indeed.

[A]

Well, folks, thank you for joining us for another episode of the Prancing Pony podcast. Please come back next week when Arendes gives us all some truly wonderful advice proving her wise.

[B]

Yeah. And then plights her truth to Eldarion, bringing that wisdom thoroughly into question.

[A]

Yes, it does.

[B]

Now Alan and I want to thank the members of Team PPP Editor Jordan Reynolds Barleyman, Becca Davis, Social media manager Casey Hilton, Event and Patreon community coordinator Katie McKenna, graphic artist Megan Collins and website guru Phil Dean.

[A]

And please take a minute to check out the prancingponypodcast.com that's where you'll find show notes, outtakes and Prancing Pony ponderings. Now, we are changing vendors for our merch at the moment, but our online storefront should be back up soon. You can get all sorts of cool PPP merch there, including all of the amazing chapter art that Megan's been doing for us for three plus seasons.

[B]

Now, we're all about the books here at Prancing Pony Podcast, so be sure to also visit our library page and we try to make sure that any book we've mentioned on the show is linked there for you to purchase. We do get a small amount of compensation when you make your purchase, so thank you for that indeed.

[A]

And we also want to thank our patrons at the Kirdan's contribution tier. I'll start with Dimay in Alaska, Chad in Texas, Lance in New Jersey, Joseph in Michigan, Kathy from North Carolina, Brian in the uk, Jerry from Washington, Irwin from the Netherlands, Ben in Minnesota, Anthony in Texas, Zaksu in Illinois, Joshua in Massachusetts, Lucy in Texas, Erica in Texas, Vivian in California and James in Massachusetts.

[B]

There's also Anne in Kentucky, Sean in New Jersey, Mason in California, Maureen from Massachusetts, Olivia in London, Robert in Arizona, Nick in Wisconsin, Lewis in Southwest Carolina, Thomas in Germany, Craig in California, Kevin in Massachusetts, Bruce in California, Joe in Maryland, Scott in California, Jeffrey in Michigan and Paul in Colorado. Thank you all so very much for your support indeed.

[A]

Thank you.

[B]

Now, make sure you don't miss any episodes of the Prancing Pony podcast. Subscribe now through Spotify, Apple Podcasts, Amazon Music, or your favorite podcast. Applause.

[A]

And one last thing. As always, don't forget to send your thoughts, comments, and most of all, your earnest wooing, though it won't do you any good at all. To [e-mail] Barliman does have a lot.

[B]

Of mail to sort through though, so we'll try to get to you just as soon as we're able.

[A]

As always, though, this has been far too short a time to spend among such excellent and admirable listeners. But until next time, however.

[B]

Farewell folks.

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