389 – Nowhere Man

Summary

The Prancing Pony Podcast – Episode 389: “Nowhere Man” (November 9, 2025)

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Overview

This episode continues the deep-dive analysis of "Aldarion and Erendis," one of Tolkien’s most nuanced stories from Unfinished Tales. Alan Sisto and Sara Brown embark on the second half of their 10-episode arc on the troubled royal marriage at the heart of Númenor’s decline. Their conversation deftly balances Tolkienian scholarship, humor, lively banter, and candid empathy as they navigate marital failure, parental mistakes, and the roots of Númenor's imperialist downfall. The team turns a critical eye to both Aldarion and Erendis, dissecting their flaws and the harm they cause—especially to their daughter, Ancalimë. Philological exploration, textual chronology, and comparisons with other Tolkien works enrich the experience.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Philology Fair: Trees of Númenor and Quenya Language

• [05:24–14:34] Alan and Sara explore the rich linguistic construction of the fragrant trees of Númenor, such as Nísimaldar, Lairelosse, Nessamelda, Vardarianna, Taniquelasse, and especially Oyolairë—the “green bough of return.”

  • The elements and etymology of each tree name are parsed, connecting Quenya and Sindarin roots, and Tolkien’s broader mythology.
  • Notable Quote: “I love reading Quenya. It’s become such like. Give me more of it. And I will read it. It’s so lovely.” —Alan ([07:32])

• [08:04–08:31] The story of the mallorn (tree of Lothlórien) is touched on, highlighting how flora in Tolkien often carries deep mythological and symbolic significance.

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2. Timeline and Numenorean Family Practices

• [17:54–22:16] Sara and Alan break down the unique longevity and family planning customs of Númenor, referencing The Nature of Middle-earth and comparing them to the “primary world.”

  • Birth and child-rearing periods are examined, illustrating the emphasis on parents being together during “the days of the children” (around 50–75 Númenorean years).
  • Discussion on the ages and reproductive windows of Erendis and Númenorean women ([18:14–22:14]), including mathematical calculations for “real-world” ages and sociological implications.

  Notable Quote: “The married pair should dwell together with as few and short times of separation as possible... The days of the children would last 50 to 60 years or more.” —Sara ([20:36])

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3. The Birth of Ancalimë, Names, and Early Hopes

• [23:06–24:31] The birth and naming of Ancalimë is discussed—her beauty being second only to Ar-Zimraphel (Tar-Míriel).
• The linguistic connection between Ancalimë’s name and the phrase “Ancalima” uttered by Frodo in The Lord of the Rings is explored.
  • Notable Quote: “So Ancalimë is likely the feminized form of Ancalíma, so her name is simply ‘most bright.’” —Alan ([24:08])
• Erendis’s initial hope that the birth of a daughter will encourage Aldarion to stay—and the underlying anxiety that it might not—is unpacked.
• Discussion of gender and inheritance, noting that Ancalimë will later become the first ruling Queen of Númenor as succession laws change.

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4. The Unraveling Marriage: Communication Breakdown

• [25:22–36:38]
• The couple’s persistent communication failures and unacknowledged needs drive a wedge between them.
  • Erendis tries to have meaningful conversations about Aldarion's interests but receives little in return. Aldarion is described as increasingly distracted by his own ambitions.
  • [30:00–31:24] Aldarion is “more widely known as Aldarion”—indicating his move from the name “Anardil” (sun-lover) to “Aldarion” (lover of trees), but the hosts point out this love is more practical (timber) than personal.
• Aldarion's increasing obsession with building ships and projecting Númenorean dominion over Middle-earth is examined as the early seed of Númenor’s imperialistic downfall.
  • Notable Quote: “He dreamed of the glory of Númenor and the power of its kings... So it was that ere long, he turned again from forestry to the building of ships.” —Alan reading ([17:51])
• Alan and Sara critique—not without humor—the lack of honest, vulnerable conversation in the marriage, noting both Aldarion and Erendis’s faults.
  • Notable Quote: “What we have here is a failure to communicate. Yeah, we do. Over and over.” —Alan ([51:30])

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5. The Crisis: Aldarion’s Departure and Domestic Fallout

• [42:23–82:37] (Major Segment: See Timestamps for Reading)

• Sara reads the primary episode passage: Aldarion announces he will sail again, despite Ancalimë being a young child and Erendis’s pleas. Their arguments are riddled with gaslighting, emotional neglect, and latent threats.

  • Notable Quote: “You cannot bind forever in soft bonds the son of the king, of the blood of Tuor and Eärendil... I shall soon return.” —Aldarion ([45:57])
  • Erendis: “Soon, she said. But the years are unrelenting, and you will not bring them back with you. And mine are briefer than yours.”

• They analyze in detail:

  • Aldarion’s self-centeredness, evasions, lack of empathy, and emotional harm—especially his brisk, heartless farewell to Ancalimë ([78:21]).
  • Erendis’s transition from grief to cold anger—marking the end of her love and the start of toxic emotional withdrawal.

• Both hosts agree that Aldarion catastrophically fails as husband and father.

  • Notable Quote: “There comes a point when I want to reach through the pages of the book and punch him.” —Alan ([78:39])

• Erendis, deeply wounded, resolves to leave Armenelos, moving to Emêrië, the sheep-country, where she attempts to safeguard her daughter—and, tragically, begins raising her in an emotionally cold household.

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6. The Downward Spiral: Erendis’s Coping, Bitterness, and Emotional Abuse

• [82:37–112:55]

• Erendis’s grief and anger transform into a bitter, emotionally paralyzed approach to life. She strives to keep her daughter Ancalimë isolated from men, instilling in her a blanket bitterness towards the opposite sex and forging a “joyless, hushed” home.

  • Notable Quote: “She sought ever to mold her daughter to her own mind, and to feed her upon her own bitterness against men.” —(Text as read by Alan) ([91:34])

• Alan and Sara are unwavering in condemning this as emotional abuse, likening it to “child abuse,” and drawing parallels with her own dysfunctional upbringing (Nuneth’s coldness and victim-blaming).

• Symbolism of the elven birds—rejected by Erendis as she declares her home “no place for such joy”—is discussed as a narrative marker of lost hope and the hardening of her heart.

• Nuneth, Erendis’s mother, is critiqued for her enabling advice and for blaming Erendis for her misfortune (“You knew what you must face”). The hosts reflect on the generational pattern of emotional damage.

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7. Ancalimë’s Unhappy Childhood

• [112:55–124:51]
• The hosts describe Ancalimë’s education, her emotional isolation, and the absence of laughter and joy in the White House at Emêrië.
  • She receives homeschooling solely from Erendis, with Erendis controlling all influences on her daughter. Even exposure to broader family (Nuneth and Beregar) is forbidden.
  • Notable Quote: “There was little enough of laughter for Ancalimë in the White House in Emerië. It was hushed and without music, as if one had died there not long since.” —(Text as read by Sara) ([110:19])
• The absolute lack of joy, warmth, and male companionship in her upbringing is shown as profoundly damaging—a tragedy with far-reaching consequences for Numenor’s future queen.

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8. Patterns of Parenting and Indoctrination

• [124:51–131:10]
• Discussion of Erendis’s increasing codependency and paranoia, and how her abusive, controlling behavior toward Ancalimë is both a reaction to and an extension of her own upbringing.
• The comparison is made between the relationships of Aldarion and his father Meneldur (wise, calm, but indecisive) and Erendis and Nuneth (cold and enabling). Ancalimë’s fate is framed as a tragic echo of generational trauma.

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9. Listener Question: Aldarion as Father vs. Son

• [126:29–131:10]
• Christine from Connecticut asks: “In what ways does the relationship between Aldarion and his daughter Ancalimë mirror or differ from his relationship with his own father?”
  • Alan and Sara conclude that, despite Meneldur’s sometimes-weak discipline, he provides emotional stability and guidance—qualities Aldarion utterly lacks as a parent. Aldarion’s absence and self-absorption leave a vacuum filled by Erendis’ bitterness, damaging their daughter irreparably.

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Notable Quotes & Moments (with Timestamps)

• Quenya Reading Praise

  • “I love reading Quenya. It’s become such like. Give me more of it. And I will read it.” —Alan ([07:32])

• Aldarion’s Justification

  • “You cannot bind forever in soft bonds the son of the king, of the blood of Tuor and Eärendil.” —Aldarion ([45:57])

• Erendis’s Retort

  • "Mine are briefer than yours. My youth runs away, and where are my children? And where is your heir? Too long and often of late is my bed cold." —Erendis ([45:57])

• On Communication Breakdown

  • “What we have here is a failure to communicate.” —Alan ([51:30])

• On Aldarion’s Emotional Failure

  • “There comes a point when I want to reach through the pages of the book and punch him.” —Alan ([78:39])

• On Erendis’s Abuse

  • “She sought ever to mold her daughter to her own mind, and to feed her upon her own bitterness against men.” —(Text) ([91:34])
  • “What Erendis is doing here to Ancalimë is unforgivable. I mean, even if Ancalimë was never going to become Queen, that is irrelevant. Damaging this child’s psyche in this way is just the most disgusting thing to do.” —Sara ([96:00])

• On Joylessness in the White House

  • “There was little enough of laughter for Ancalimë in the White House in Emerië. It was hushed and without music, as if one had died there not long since.” —(Text) ([110:19])

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Segment Timestamps

• Philology Fair: Trees & Quenya — [05:24–14:34]
• Numenorean Childbearing Customs — [17:54–22:16]
• Birth/Name of Ancalimë — [23:06–24:31]
• Domestic Discord & Communication Breakdown — [25:22–36:38]
• Aldarion’s Departure & Emotional Fallout (reading & analysis) — [42:23–82:37]
• Erendis’s Bitterness and Abuse — [82:37–112:55]
• Ancalimë’s Unhappy Upbringing — [112:55–124:51]
• Listener Question: Aldarion as Father vs. Son — [126:29–131:10]

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Tone & Style

The episode maintains the podcast’s trademark—expertise leavened with wit, critical yet empathetic commentary, and an atmosphere of friendly camaraderie. Scholars’ insights alternate with deeply felt (and sometimes exasperated) criticisms of the story’s flawed characters, always with an eye toward Tolkien’s moral and cultural themes.

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Conclusion

This episode stands as a compelling study in the anatomy of failed relationships—between spouses, parents and children, and between duty and desire. Alan and Sara’s analysis lays bare the emotional and cultural dynamics Tolkien wove into the fall of Númenor, offering listeners not just lore, but urgent contemporary resonances for understanding trauma, communication, and the long shadow of unhealthy power in families and nations.

Next episode: Aldarion returns from his self-imposed exile—unsurprisingly, things are not as he had hoped...

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For further Tolkien discussion, transcripts, and supplemental postscripts (such as on Númenorean language, customs, or parenting), visit prancingponypodcast.com.

Transcript

[Alan Sisto]

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[Sara Brown]

Just please don't go building any wooden whales, folks. Pull up a bench in the common room and join us. I'm Sara Brown, the shield maiden of Rohan, and I'm here with the man of the west, who would be just fine bound forever in soft bonds, Alan Sisto.

[Alan Sisto]

Wow. Watch out, man. Okay. Family friendly show, folks. Join us as Aldarian and Arendus take separate vacations as we begin the second half of our 10 episodes on Aldarian and Arendus from Unfinished Tales. And, you know, maybe they needed to work on that, you know?

[Sara Brown]

Yeah, maybe, maybe, perhaps they could have worked on the whole separation thing before there was any together thing, and that would have been much, much better.

[Alan Sisto]

Fair enough. Fair enough.

[Sara Brown]

Although it would have been a very, very short tale.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah.

[Sara Brown]

Anyway, folks, no matter whether you come to Middle Earth through the books, the films, the TV show, or something else, each of you is welcome here in our common room. The Prancing Pony Podcast continues in our 10th season of Reading and talking our way through Middle Earth with conversations, digressions, and even a few speculations.

[Alan Sisto]

That's right. Not to mention a few puns and bad jokes here and there.

[Sara Brown]

So many.

[Alan Sisto]

So many. Our purpose, though, is to dive deep into the lore to discuss the story, our favorite characters and themes, Tolkien's inspirations, and a whole lot more.

[Sara Brown]

Yep. And while we take the work seriously, the same really can't be said about ourselves. We're just a couple of mates chatting at the pub. We're really glad you've joined us.

[Alan Sisto]

That's correct. I'm sure you'll be glad you joined as well. But before we get to tonight's chapter discussion, it's time for fan favorite Philology.

[Sara Brown]

Such a jaunty tune, isn't it? Way back in only the second episode on Aldarion and Arendis, we read here must be told of the custom that when a ship departed from Numenor over the great sea to Middle Earth, a woman, most often of the captain's kin, should set upon the vessel's prow the green bow of return. And that was cut from the tree Oyolyre, that signifies ever summer, which the Eldar gave to the Numenoreans, saying that they set it upon their own ships in token of friendship with Ose and Uinen. The leaves of that tree were evergreen, glossy and fragrant, and it throve upon sea air.

[Alan Sisto]

What a lovely tree. I want to go into an Oyolyre forest and just.

[Sara Brown]

Oh, wouldn't that be gorgeous?

[Alan Sisto]

Yes, but of course, reading that meant. We also read one of my favorite paragraphs in Unfinished Tales. It's actually from a description of the island of Numenor, and it's the one that mentions the Bay of Eldana and the trees that grew nearby. All about that place, up the seaward slopes and far into the land, grew the evergreen and fragrant trees that they brought out of the west, and so throve there that the Eldar said that almost it was fair as a haven in Eressea. They were the greatest delight of Numenor, and they were remembered in many songs long after they had perished forever. For few ever flowered east of the land of Gift. Oyolyre and Lyrelosse, Nessamelda, Vardariana, Tanaquilasse and Yavanna Mire, with its globed and scarlet fruits, Flower, leaf and rind of those trees exuded sweet scents, and all that country was full of blended fragrance. Therefore it was called Nissimaldar. The fragrant trees. Many of them were planted and grew, though far less abundantly in other regions of Numenor. But only here grew the mighty golden tree Maranorne, reaching after five centuries a height scarce less than it achieved in Eressea itself.

[Sara Brown]

Oh, now, before I go on, I just want to say how much I enjoy listening to you reading any Quenya.

[Alan Sisto]

I love reading Quenya. It's become such like. Give me more of it. And I Will read it. It's so lovely.

[Sara Brown]

It is lovely. But it is particularly lovely when you read it. It just comes alive.

[Alan Sisto]

I do enjoy it. It's. It's become. It's become a passion of mine, for sure. Right up there with alliterative verse.

[Sara Brown]

Alliterative verse is just wonderful. You like the Quenya, though? I love the Sindarin.

[Alan Sisto]

Well, that makes sense, because Sindarin does have connections to Welsh.

[Sara Brown]

It does. It just flows off the tongue the way it. The Quenya does for you. Anyway, anyway, I digressed already.

[Alan Sisto]

That's okay. That's what the show's about.

[Sara Brown]

So there's a whole section after that about the mallorn and how it came to Middle Earth. And like we've said, Eldarion did a few good things. Too few. Just a few. Yeah, but it's.

[Alan Sisto]

You don't need to take, like, your second hand out of your pocket to count them.

[Sara Brown]

No, no. If. If they were done on two pieces of paper, the pros and the cons. Let's just say the cons list. I'm running out of paper.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah. Both sides. Tiny print.

[Sara Brown]

Yeah, yeah, exactly. Yeah. Anyway, digressing all over again, it's that first part of the paragraph, the bit about Nissimaldar, the fragrant trees. And that is the star of the show for this episode's Philology Fair. We're going to save Oyalaire for the end, so let's start with the rest.

[Alan Sisto]

All right. Well, Nissimaldar is translated directly in the text for us as meaning fragrant trees. It would seem that this is the only use of Nisima as an element meaning fragrant. But Alda is something that we have looked at before. We actually look at it in the very first episode in the story because it's in Aldarien's name, Aldarian's name, son of trees, Aldar trees, and the ion suffix being the patronymic. Now, we also see that same element in Kullumalda, which is the laburnum, or literally the orange tree, as well as in the line from Galadriel's Lament that reads yeni unotime veramar Alderon, meaning long years, numberless as the wings of trees, Alderon, not to mention one of the other names of Laurelin, one of the two trees, Malinalda, which means tree of gold. So that's Nissimaldar.

[Sara Brown]

Right. Now, Laera lose is a Quenya compound with the elements lire, meaning summer, and losse, meaning white, snow white. And we see that latter element, lose, in one of the names the mountain of Manwe and Varda Taniquetil, as it is also known as Oyalosse or ever Snow White. Lyra, as summer is also seen in Appendix D, the calendars, as the Quenya name for summer.

[Alan Sisto]

That's right. And of course, these are all Quenya compounds and you know, we'll take a look at each of the elements. Shocking, I know. Nessa Melda is named in part for the Vala. Nessa. No, the sister of Orme who married Tulkas in Valaquinta. We read of her that she also is lithe and fleet footed deer she loves and they follow her train whenever she goes in the wild. But she can outrun them swift as an arrow with the wind in her hair. So that's Nessa. Now, the melda element simply means dear or beloved. And it's such a wonderful little element. We do see it at the very end of the chapter Lothlorien when Frodo sees Aragorn at the foot of Khaen and Amroth, sort of talking to himself, right. Wrapped in some fair memory. We read that he spoke words in the Elvish tongue to one whom Frodo could not see. Arwen, Vani, Melda, Namariye. And that means Arwen, Beautiful and beloved. Farewell.

[Sara Brown]

Oh, gorgeous.

[Alan Sisto]

What a word that is.

[Sara Brown]

It's so lovely. We looked. But Vardariana is not glossed. Still, it doesn't seem a stretch to say. It obviously includes the name of Varda, the Valier of the stars and the wife of Manwe the High King. It seems that it also includes the element anna, meaning gift, as in Yavana, giver of fruits, and Anatar, lord of gifts.

[Alan Sisto]

Lovely man, that guy. Well, here's another one that should also sound familiar. Taniquelase. Now, the first three syllables are shared with Taniquetl. After all, that means high snow peak with the lasse ending, though it's high snow leaf, with lasse being the Quenya word for leaf. Laurier, Lantar, Lassi surnen includes the plural, like gold, fall, the leaves in the wind. Lassi, as opposed to lasse. Lasse is cognate with Sindarin lass, which we see in Athalas, Legolas and many, many more.

[Sara Brown]

Now, following in the pattern of Va dariana. And Nessa Melda is the last one in the list, which is Yavana Mira, another Quenya compound. The mire element means jewel. And we see that in a few other places. Elendil Mir, the star of Elendil Miriel, jeweled altar. And another Line from Galadriel's Lament, where we see its plural, miri, oyele, which means, and mist covers Kalakiria's jewels forever. So this last tree is the Jewel of Yavanna.

[Alan Sisto]

I love that. A tree named the Jewel of Yavanna.

[Sara Brown]

Can you imagine how gorgeous these trees are?

[Alan Sisto]

Oh, they must be. And just the smell. I mean, anytime you're in, like, an evergreen forest, it's always, you know, this rich, fragrant smell, whether it's pines or furs or whatever it may be just.

[Sara Brown]

A wonderful, verdant smell.

[Alan Sisto]

It really is. But imagining these. These particular ones that are brought over from toleration, and every part of them has this. This fragrant, you know, the. The leaves, the flowers, the rinds, all of it just.

[Sara Brown]

I just want to go there. Please, can I go?

[Alan Sisto]

So good. But we did save the most important one for last release, the most important one to this story. And before we move on to the reading, we're going to take look at the construction of the word oyolyre. Now, we find it glossed for us in the appendix to the silmarillion elements in Quenya and Cinderella names. But we don't find it where you might think I would have looked for it under Oyolose, the other name for Taniquetil. And maybe it's because there's actually no entry for Oyolose, so instead we actually see it under the entry for Koron. Why do we see Oyolyre under Coron? Well, let me get to that. Koron is Mound, as in Corolire, the Quenya name for Zelohar. That's the small hill outside the gates of Valimar, the city of the Valar. Ezellohar is a Vanuran name which means green mound. But Corole is the Quenya name for it. It doesn't mean green mound. It means mound of summer. So in the appendix entry, we read that Corole is short for koron olare, which latter word means ever summer, compare with oyolose, ever winter. So right there we get the definition of the whole word oyolyre, ever summer. By the way, if you think koron for mound sounds vaguely familiar, that's because the cinder incognate is Karen. Koran becomes Keren, as in Keren Amroth.

[Sara Brown]

Oh, love that. Love a good philology fair.

[Alan Sisto]

It's so much fun. So much fun.

[Sara Brown]

It is. But now it is time to turn to the text, and I think you're going to start us off with the first reading. Alan.

[Alan Sisto]

I will indeed. Two years later Irendus conceived. And in the spring of the year after, she bore to Eldarion a daughter. Even from birth the child was fair and grew ever in beauty. The woman most beautiful, as old tales tell, that ever was born in the line of Elros, save Arzimrafell the last, when her first naming was due, they called her Ankalime. In her heart Arendus was glad, for she thought, surely now Eldarion will desire a son to be his heir, and he will abide with me long yet. For in secret she still feared the sea and its power upon his heart. And though she strove to hide it, and would talk with him of his old ventures and of his hopes and designs, she watched jealously if he went to his houseship, or was much with the venturers to Eyambar. Eldarion once asked her to come. But seeing swiftly in her eyes that she was not full willing, he never pressed her again. Not without cause was Arendus fear. When Eldarion had been five years ashore, he began to be busy again with his mastership of forests, and was often many days away from his house. There was now indeed sufficient timber in Numenor, and that was chiefly owing to his prudence. Yet since the people were now more numerous, there was ever need of wood for building and for the making of many things beside. For in those ancient days, though many had great skill with stone and with metals. Since the Edain of old had learned much of the Noldor, the Numenoreans loved things fashioned of wood, whether for daily use or for beauty of carving. At that time Eldarion again gave most heed to the future, planting always where there was felling, and he had new woods set to grow where there was room, a free land that was suited to trees of different kinds. It was then that he became most widely known as Aldarion, by which name he is remembered among those who held the scepter in Numenor. Yet to many beside Arundis, it seemed that he had little love for trees in themselves, caring for them rather as timber that would serve his designs. Not far otherwise was it with the sea. For as Nooneth had said to Arundus long before ships, he may love my daughter, for those are made by men's minds and hands. But I think that it is not the winds or the great waters that so burn his heart, nor yet the sight of strange lands, but some heat in his mind or some dream that pursues him. And it may be that she struck near the truth. For Eldarion was a man long sighted, and he looked forward to days when the people would need more room and greater wealth. And whether he himself knew this clearly or no, he dreamed of the glory of Numenor and the power of its kings. And he sought for footholds whence they could step to wider dominion. So it was that ere long the he turned again from forestry to the building of ships.

[Sara Brown]

Dun, dun, dun.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah.

[Sara Brown]

So as is often the case, we start with a timeline reference. This is very useful actually, for keeping track of everything. Now, two years later would mean second age 871, and the following spring, second age 872, Erendis, now aged 101, gives birth to her daughter.

[Alan Sisto]

Now, not too many one hundred and one year old women giving birth in the primary world, but her Numenorean age at this point is roughly equivalent to 36. And that actually reminds me, I need to go back and correct some of my earlier age comparisons. Over the last episode or two, I'd been doing the maths wrong. You're supposed to take the Numenorean age, subtract 20, then take what's left, divide by 5 and add that back to your original 20. So in this case, 101 minus 20 is 81. You divide the 81 by 5, you get 16.2, you add that back to the 20, you get 36.2. For some reason, I'd recently been taking the Numenorean age subtracting 25 and then doing the rest correctly. That's been leading to ages that are about five years older than the normal calculation.

[Sara Brown]

Right, but honestly, given that Arendus is of the shorter lived line of the House of Beor, that mathematically erroneous way might actually be the right way to adjust for the difference between her lifespan and that of a more typical Numenorean who's descended from the House of Hador. And if that's the case, she's a little bit older than 40. And that again, would make a lot of sense given the concern about her having to wait for so long.

[Alan Sisto]

Exactly. As we'll see in the very next reading, I think, where she's like, excuse me, you want to do what? Where are my kids? 40 isn't exactly young to have a first child, but a little more than 4% of births today are to women 40 and over. Still, I think we should look, rather than at primary world data, at a more important source. The nature of Middle Earth and the lives of the Numenoreans. We read there that the childbearing period of women was similar to that of ordinary women, though reckoned in Numenorean terms. That is, it ranged from puberty reached by Numenorean women not long before full growth to an age equivalent to a normal human, 45, with occasional extension towards 50 in years. This means from about 18 to about 125 or a little more. But first, children were seldom, if ever, conceived at the end of this time. Present case accepted.

[Sara Brown]

Yeah. Right. And like the Eldar, they called the period of parenthood the days of the children and had all their kids in this single, connected and limited period of their lives. Now, more than that, they considered, quote, the treating of the period of childbearing as an ordered and unbroken series, as proper and desirable in if it could be achieved.

[Alan Sisto]

Exactly. And I think just setting it up with that, you can probably guess where we're going next. I mean, how can this be an ordered and unbroken series if, well, dad keeps sailing off into the sunset.

[Sara Brown]

Yeah. And the Numenoreans held this as the ideal arrangement, quote, that the married pair should dwell together with as few and short times of separation as possible between, say, the conception of their first child to at least the seventh birthday of the latest. Now, that, of course, would be a pretty long time, as we'll talk about shortly. They usually had very long stretches of time between children.

[Alan Sisto]

I mean, I'm even thinking in the primary world, that would be a long time if you had, let's say, three kids, even three years apart. You're talking about. And you got to wait till the youngest is seven. You're talking about a very long period of time, something like 13, 14 years.

[Sara Brown]

Yes, but, you know, that's kind of fair.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah. And it's about what you think, right. 28 to 42, you know, and because maybe 20. Yeah, exactly. That fits. Well, we read that these Numenoreans would frequently have their children, quote, within a period of about 50 to 75 years between the first conception and the last birth. Now, that seems like a terrifyingly long time, but as Tolkien points out, this period was only equivalent to what, of about 10 to 15 years of normal.

[Sara Brown]

Human life, which is a little bit less terrifying.

[Alan Sisto]

Exactly.

[Sara Brown]

And since they rarely had more than four kids, these gaps were big. 10 to 15 years, typically never less than five, and sometimes up to 20.

[Alan Sisto]

That's a long time.

[Sara Brown]

Yeah, That's a decent amount of time. Yeah. So the days of the children would last 50 to 60 years or more.

[Alan Sisto]

Wow. Especially if you had all four. I mean, four was like the typical max, but let's say even three. You'd be talking about a 40 year period of time. That's the days of the children seem.

[Sara Brown]

Like a really long time to have.

[Alan Sisto]

Kids in that I know I'm like, what am I going to be an empty nester?

[Sara Brown]

Please, anytime now would be good.

[Alan Sisto]

Now in the P5 for this episode, whether it's a single episode P5 or another mega P5 covering the second half of the story like we did for the first, we're going to look at this even more in depth with some very interesting things that we find out in that chapter in Nature of Middle Earth. For now though, let's get back to the story. I just realized that all of that digression was after one sentence, so I suppose we better get on with things.

[Sara Brown]

Good grief. Now this child that Arendes bore at 101 in second age 872, just to get you all back on track, is described here as beautiful even from birth. And she would grow to become the most beautiful woman in the line of Elros until the very last Ar Zimraphel.

[Alan Sisto]

Who you most likely know better as Tar Miriel, the daughter of Tar Palantir, whose queenship was usurped by Ar Pharazon.

[Sara Brown]

Right now, when it came time to give her a name, they named her Ankalime.

[Alan Sisto]

Ankalime. Now, if that name sounds a lot like something you remember hearing in the Lord of the Rings, it's because he did. In Shelob's lair, Frodo holds up the phial of Galadriel containing the light of Earendil and says, haya, Earendil, Elenion, and Calimar.

[Sara Brown]

And when Frodo and Sam are escaping the Tower of Cirith Ungol, they are stopped by the Watcher's evil will on the way out, and Frodo cries out, aya elenyon Ankalimar. The same as before, but without Earendil's name.

[Alan Sisto]

So Ankalima in both those cases is a combination of Kalima, meaning bright. It's actually related. It's from the same root as Galad, meaning radiance as well. And the superlative prefix an so Ankalima is most bright or brightest. Ankalime is likely the feminized form of Ankalima, so her name is simply most Bright, and it's appropriate to her beauty.

[Sara Brown]

Right now, Arendus is thrilled to have a daughter, not because she necessarily wanted a girl, but because she figures that Aeldarion still needs an heir, so he will stick around.

[Alan Sisto]

I'm thinking she's like, ooh, I got a daughter now. We can, like, have shopping trips and we can do makeup and we can have tea parties.

[Sara Brown]

No, no, I'm rolling my eyes here.

[Alan Sisto]

I know you are. I was doing that on purpose, actually.

[Sara Brown]

I know you were.

[Alan Sisto]

I, I do find this interesting. She's not strategizing so much as she's like, well, thank goodness that isn't the heir. Because if this was the heir, he'd be done. He'd have no reason to stick around. And she's still afraid. She's, she's not really wrong to be afraid either, as we'll see. But it is still true at this point in Numenorean history that he needs a male heir. Now, as we will see shortly, Aldarion changes the rules for his daughter, Little Nepetiz.

[Sara Brown]

Oh, dear.

[Alan Sisto]

Sorry. We gotta get School of Rock references in when we can.

[Sara Brown]

So the text tells us here that even though she's won the battle with the sea for now, she still very much fears it and the influence that it has on Eldarion. And she tried to hide this fear. And she talked with him about his previous journeys and what he wanted to do in the future. You know, just trying to keep him focused on something else.

[Alan Sisto]

I do love, though, that she was willing to have these conversations about his old journeys, knowing full well that that could stir in him this desire to go back. She's still trying to show, I care about what you care about.

[Sara Brown]

Right. We don't get Aeldarion saying, oh, yes, let's talk about how.

[Alan Sisto]

Tell me about the trees. Yeah, exactly. No, we don't. Of course, she's also not completely naive. She's keeping a close eye on whether he's going out to Eombar or hanging out with his frat bros. Yeah.

[Sara Brown]

And in fact, Aldarion did ask her to join him on the houseboat. But she didn't even need to say no. He could see right away that she wasn't, as the text says, full willing.

[Alan Sisto]

I, I, I might know that. Look, I, I do. At the risk of maybe sparking your ire, I want to stop and give him just a tiny bit of credit right here. We do rightly bash him and soon will rightly be bashing at horrendous. But this seems to be a moment of goodness, right? He knows her well enough to recognize the look. He doesn't have to wait for her to say anything, right? He, he asks. The look on her face tells him something. He could push her. I mean, this is still a very patriarchal society. He is the king's heir. He could say, no, you're going to come with me. He doesn't do that. She's not even described as fully opposed. She's just not full willing. And he's like, I'm backing off.

[Sara Brown]

I think you're being really kind to Aldani.

[Alan Sisto]

I'm trying to find something to be nice to him about because he's stepping in it everywhere he goes.

[Sara Brown]

Yes, he is. Yes. That's a lovely way of reading it. The other way of reading it is that he sees the look on her face and he's like, oh, yeah, okay. Well, you know. And. Yeah, that's.

[Alan Sisto]

That's entirely possible. Entirely possible. Yeah.

[Sara Brown]

And he doesn't bother asking again because he really doesn't care.

[Alan Sisto]

No, I think that's part of it. But the fact that he didn't press her again, I don't know. You're right. There are multiple ways of reading that. I also thought the full willing thing brings me back to the aole and ahithel.

[Sara Brown]

Oh, yeah, that makes me cringe.

[Alan Sisto]

But this is a little. This. Well, this is a lot different from that, because that.

[Sara Brown]

Yes.

[Alan Sisto]

That's awful. That's truly terrible.

[Sara Brown]

That's. Oh, my Lord. John Ronald, what did you do?

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah, this is like, you know what? Maybe she'd be willing to do this like she did before when she concealed her distaste and fear, but I'm not going to make her do that. But there's also a little bit of, like you said, now I don't care anymore. And so it's not just that he never pressed her again, maybe he never even talked about it again. But that's part of the problem these two have, isn't it?

[Sara Brown]

Yeah, it is. Because what we have here is a.

[Alan Sisto]

Failure to communicate yet again. This brief relief in the spin on Eldarion is brought to you by a moment of very slight empathy. Back to our story. Immediately we discover that Erendisphere is far from unreasonable. In fact, it's based quite solidly in who Aldarion is.

[Sara Brown]

Right. Because after five years on land, remember, he came back in 869, so this is now 874. He. He's busy working on his forestry and is often not home for days at a time. And yes, there is now plenty of lumber on the island. Remember lumber? Because that's all he's really interested in. And that is thanks to his work, for the most part.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah.

[Sara Brown]

But the population has grown and they need wood to build homes and to.

[Alan Sisto]

Make stuff Yeah, I did little decorative items, I suppose. I thought this was interesting because, you know, we get a mention of how they could work with metal or stone. Right. They had this skill because they worked with the Noldorf, but they loved things fashioned of wood. Whether they were practical things. I mean, I don't know. You're not going to make pots and pans out of wood, but, you know, you're going to make. You know, you can make all sorts of things, furniture out of wood, but sometimes just for the beauty of carving.

[Sara Brown]

Right now I'm trying to square this with what we know of Gondor, which is of course, literally land of stone. And maybe this love of wood as a material for craftsmanship faded over the generations, but it certainly doesn't seem to be the case for the exiles.

[Alan Sisto]

No, we don't see that in the exiles at all. In fact, we don't even see that really at the end of Numenor. You certainly don't build a 500 foot wide, 500 foot high dome temple out of wood. Not if you're going to burn things and people in it.

[Sara Brown]

Gross.

[Alan Sisto]

You got to make that out of stone.

[Sara Brown]

Yeah, yeah. So he was thinking ahead, as Aldarian often did. Right. He was planting trees wherever he'd had them cut down and even planting entirely new forests. And that is not a bad thing.

[Alan Sisto]

No, not a bad thing at all.

[Sara Brown]

No. Interestingly, though, it's only at this point in the story that he becomes known, or to be precise, more widely known as Aldarion.

[Alan Sisto]

And that's interesting because he's 174 years old. So for that whole time was he mostly known as Anardil? Right, that's his birth name. It means lover of the sun in Quenya. That's really interesting. I mean, it is before he becomes king, and that's, I guess, what really matters. But. But what was he known as for all that time?

[Sara Brown]

Yeah, maybe you're right. Maybe it is an Ardil.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah. So this whole time, Irendis isn't thinking about Aldarion, she's thinking about an Ardil.

[Sara Brown]

Right. The tale of Anardil and Arendes, which.

[Alan Sisto]

An Anardil is another one of those Tolkien names that really does sound like a pharmaceutical, you know.

[Sara Brown]

Yes, yes.

[Alan Sisto]

Ask Nunez if an Ardil is right for you. So despite all this work as a forester people, and it's not just Orendus, it needs to be said, it's not just the woman who knows him really well and who loves trees. It's a lot of other people. Observe that Eldarion doesn't love trees as trees. He loves them for what they provide. They are trees.

[Sara Brown]

We had that pointed out in the story earlier. Yeah. Because that love for trees only as a resource stands in sharp contrast to his love for, well, some might say, obsession with the sea. Right. And here we're given a quote which is told by Nuneth to Arrendis long before, though we're not told when that is eerily accurate.

[Alan Sisto]

That's right. He may love ships, since those are things that he could design and build, but that isn't what drives him. In fact, it's not even the winds or the water. It's not even the exploration of lands, is it?

[Sara Brown]

Nope. In fact, it's some undefinable, unidentifiable thing. The text says it's a heap of. In his mind or some dream. And the narrator suggests she was actually onto something here. Eldarion was always looking toward the future of Numenor.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah. He said to be thinking about the future when Numenor would need more room and greater wealth. Okay, that's terrifying.

[Sara Brown]

Yeah. Because we talked about this concept.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah. We're talking about Lebensraum and how this is already, you know, terrifyingly imperialistic and colonizing. And now we also need greater wealth.

[Sara Brown]

Right, right. Because you don't have enough. You're already probably the most powerful humans in.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah.

[Sara Brown]

On the planet at this point.

[Alan Sisto]

Well, yeah, on the flat plane. Yeah.

[Sara Brown]

On the flat plains of Arda. But also they are already wealthy in everything they need.

[Alan Sisto]

They really are. They have plenty. They have so much. I mean, it's. You know, when you look at the lives of the Numenoreans in Nature of Middle Earth, or you look at it, even a description of the island of Numenor, and you learn things. Sickness was rare among them. They were so aware of their own bodies that they almost never, like, stumbled and fell. They didn't have accidents. They really did live that long because they just didn't die of sickness beforehand. They didn't die from accidents beforehand.

[Sara Brown]

I think this really comes back to what you were reading from the Nature of Middle Earth. You know, desiring more for the sake of desiring more.

[Alan Sisto]

Exactly.

[Sara Brown]

Have more.

[Alan Sisto]

Never satisfied, never content. So the narration goes on to tell us, and I love the little aside, whether he himself knew this clearly or no, it reminds me of, like, Sauron, feigned, even to himself. Right.

[Sara Brown]

Yes.

[Alan Sisto]

But he was actually dreaming about, quote, the glory of Numenor and the power of its kings. And can we just Back this empire shaped truck up a second and see how bad this is inherently.

[Sara Brown]

Oh, this is. This is why this story is so important. Yes, because we've said this before. This is the point where Numenor starts to change, where the, the greatness of Numenor doesn't lie in the power of its kings. No, that is not its greatness. But he's going down a different path, isn't he? He's not thinking about the future of his people and working for their good. This is pride taking root in a way that's going to come back to bite Numenor hard footholds in Middle Earth from where they could step to wider dominion. Why?

[Alan Sisto]

Why?

[Sara Brown]

Seriously, purpose. You know, the island is already huge. It's not like, you know, they're running out of room for their people.

[Alan Sisto]

No, it is a very big island. I know we talk about it. Oh, it's small because it's an island. But it's. What did we say? It's something like twice the size of, of Great Britain. I mean, it's a massive island.

[Sara Brown]

It's a massive island. And even with the population, they are nowhere near taking up the entirety of that land.

[Alan Sisto]

No, I mean, at most are having four children, but that means some are having two or three, and two is perfectly fine. The challenge is they do live for a very long time. So you are going to eventually run into some population issues, but I don't know.

[Sara Brown]

But this is not about just, okay, we might need a little bit more land to build a few houses on Dominion. This word is really, really important.

[Alan Sisto]

It's very specific. And earlier, what he was dreaming, right? The power of its kings, the glory of Numenor, not the needs of the people of Numenor. Yeah. Speaking as a bit of a devil's advocate, not that I am, but we need to throw this in there so that we can be thinking about both sides here. His farsightedness will prove to be a good thing in many ways, Right? I mean, his knowledge that Numenor is going to need greater vessels and the ability to project power will eventually save the elves of Middle Earth, but at what cost? And having the ability to project power to protect others and to protect yourself is fine. But having the ability to project power and then using it for wider dominion.

[Sara Brown]

Is not the subjugation of the people of that land. Subjugation, Right. I mean, with the expansion of empire in his mind, he shifts gears from his forestry, which he was not doing, from a love of trees, remember, but a love of, of timber and we're back to the shipbuilding.

[Alan Sisto]

That's right. And in the part we didn't read, he gets this vision of a castle like ship enough to carry a whole town's worth of people, food and supplies. I've got to ask you, Sarah, what do you think? Where did this vision come from? Whence came the vision? It's unlikely to have been the valar. Right. They're not going to send him that vision.

[Sara Brown]

No, absolutely not. The valar would be heading in the opposite direction to that. No, this is all born out of his vision of a greater numenor. Right. But to create this greater Numenor, we need bigger and better ships.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah.

[Sara Brown]

And the kinds of ships that mean that you can take Numenoreans across to Middle Earth and just plant yourself there. Right. I mean, if you have ships that are big enough to carry a whole town's worth of people, food and supplies, as we get from this vision, then you can very quickly populate and subjugate and have dominion over huge swathes of land. It's the very quickest way to do that is by taking the most people and supplies over in one go.

[Alan Sisto]

Absolutely. I mean, now I can't help but think of like Spanish conquistadors and. And sort of the whole idea of just coming in and supplanting, you know, a native population and. Yeah, the more people you bring, the more easy it is to subjugate. Absolutely.

[Sara Brown]

Right. Yeah. Which is really scary. And now, of course, the harbor gets busy making his vision into a reality. A gigantic hull that gains a popular moniker. Turofanto Wooden whale.

[Alan Sisto]

Okay, that's my. That's the next band name. I'm going to create a band. It's going to be called Turofanto.

[Sara Brown]

Welcome on stage, everybody.

[Alan Sisto]

I love it. It's an interesting name and it makes sense. That isn't actually its name as we'll get to. But yeah, you can imagine the people are going to be talking about this. They're seeing this massive hole that's got to be, you know, two, three times the size of anything they built before. Massive. Just gigantic. Like, wow, what are they building? That's a wooden whale, isn't.

[Sara Brown]

Must have been what the rings of power folks had because they managed to get all those horses across in. In those tiny, tiny ships. So maybe this was actually around the corner.

[Alan Sisto]

Those were ships attached to submarines that were.

[Sara Brown]

Had to be galleons. No way they were getting all those horses across any other way.

[Alan Sisto]

I know.

[Sara Brown]

Maybe they had a bunch of Turofantos just around the corner maybe.

[Alan Sisto]

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[Sara Brown]

Right, because that's how car buying should be with Carvana. You get the car you want, choose the delivery or pickup, and a week.

[Alan Sisto]

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[Sara Brown]

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[Alan Sisto]

Now. Soon we'll get back to Aarian, proving who he is yet again. But before we do, I want to take a minute to thank the amazing community that has grown up around this show after all. And thankfully there is a lot more talk going on at the Prancing Pony podcast than just us.

[Sara Brown]

Absolutely. Because the PPP really does have a warm and welcoming listener community. If you've got questions or you just want to talk about how much you love Middle Earth, be sure to check out our Common room on Facebook and across all social media. On Facebook, just look for the Prancing Pony Podcast now. Yep, there's a page, but you're going to want to join the group for that great fan community that's right now.

[Alan Sisto]

On every social media platform other than Facebook. We are just at Prancing Pony Pod. Find us there and you can find our subreddit at R Prancing Pony Pod. And be sure to check out my Daily show, today's Tolkien Times on YouTube and all your favorite podcast apps. Get your daily Middle Earth fix with everything from Middle Earth Map Mondays to Word Nerd Wednesdays. Be sure to watch or [e-mail] prancingpony pod but for now we're going to get back into the story and Sarah, I'm going to have you pick up from where I left off, okay?

[Sara Brown]

Arendys learned of these things, though Aldarion had not spoken to her of them and she was unquiet. Therefore, one day she said to him, what is all this busyness with ships, Lord of the Havens? Have we not enough? How many fair trees have been cut short of their lives in this year? She spoke lightly and smiled as she spoke. A man must have work to do upon land, he answered, even though he have a Fair wife, trees spring and trees fall, I plant more than are felled. He spoke also in a light tone, but he did not look her in the face, and they did not speak again of these matters. But when Ancalime was close on four years old, Aldarion at last declared openly to Arendus his desire to sail again from Numenor. She sat silent, for he said nothing that she did not already know, and words were in vain. He tarried until the birthday of Ancalime, and made much of her that day. She laughed and was merry, though others in that house were not so. And as she went to her bed, she said to her father, where will you take me this summer, Titania? I should like to see the white house in the sheep land that Mamil tells of. Eldarion did not answer, and the next day he left the house and was gone for some days. When all was ready, he returned and bade Arendys farewell. Then, against her will, tears were in her eyes. They grieved him and yet irked him, for his mind was resolved and he hardened his heart. Come, Arendis, he said. Eight years I have stayed. You cannot bind for ever in soft bonds the son of the king of the blood of Tuor and Earendel. And I am not going to my death. I shall soon return soon, she said. But the years are unrelenting, and you will not bring them back with you. And mine are briefer than yours. My youth runs away, and where are my children? And where is your heir? Too long and often of late. Is my bed cold. Often of late. I have thought that you preferred it so, said Aldarion. But let us not be wroth, even if we are not of like mind. Look in your mirror, Erendis. You are beautiful, and no shadow of age is there. Yet you have time to spare to my deep need. Two years. Two years is all that I ask. Say rather, two years I will take, whether you will or no. Take two years then, but no more. A king's son of the blood of Earendil should also be a man of his word.

[Alan Sisto]

Oh, there is a lot to unpack.

[Sara Brown]

Here, isn't there, though?

[Alan Sisto]

I also rolled my eyes a lot.

[Sara Brown]

Yeah, it's really hard to read the text when your eyes are rolling back in your head.

[Alan Sisto]

It is because then you lose sight of the words and you're like, I.

[Sara Brown]

Yeah, I really want to kick Aldarion's butt at this point.

[Alan Sisto]

This is. This is the moment where I'm the most angry with Aldarian. Yes, there's Another moment coming up, actually.

[Sara Brown]

Well, the most angry so far.

[Alan Sisto]

So far. That's fair. So far.

[Sara Brown]

Yeah.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah. So let's go back to the beginning of that. I mean, when a big ship is being built in the harbor, like we talked about before, and everybody's working on it, everybody's going to see it, and that means that it's going to be pretty hard for Horrendous not to hear about it. And when she does, she is understandably unquiet. I like the way she asks him about this. And I want folks, for you to note this. This is not horrendous being accusatory. This is not her attacking or nagging him. She's asking while she's smiling and speaking lightly. Yeah.

[Sara Brown]

And she does.

[Alan Sisto]

She's just asking questions.

[Sara Brown]

Right. She asks him a very reasonable set of questions. What is this? This busyness with the ship building? In other words, why have you switched your priorities from forestry to ship building right now?

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah.

[Sara Brown]

And note, she calls him Lord of the Havens here. I wonder if her point might have been taken more clearly if she'd referred to him as Master of the Forests.

[Alan Sisto]

I thought the same thing. Like, okay, you're conceding almost to his ship building here. Like, remind him of his other duties.

[Sara Brown]

Yeah. And then she asked whether Numenor has enough ships. Well, that is, what need would there be for us to build more?

[Alan Sisto]

A very valid question. I mean, like, really, why do we need to build more?

[Sara Brown]

Not to mention a gigantic behemoth of a ship.

[Alan Sisto]

Seriously. So she mentions the trees, which, of course, he knows that she loves, because she has said this over and over. And specifically asking, how many of these trees have been cut down short of their lives? Now, honestly, that is a question the Master Forest should know, or at least be able to ballpark.

[Sara Brown]

Oh, yeah, 100%.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah. Now, it's interesting because his response is also said to be in a light tone, but to me, because he's not looking at her when he answers, it feels like it's more dismissive.

[Sara Brown]

Oh, very much.

[Alan Sisto]

And not just trying to maintain a friendly chatter. Because he stops talking.

[Sara Brown]

Yeah, yeah. And also, if you look at his words, they feel a little bit snarkier.

[Alan Sisto]

They do. Yeah. A little bit. Almost mocking.

[Sara Brown]

Yeah, Yeah, a little bit. And also defensive.

[Alan Sisto]

Tree springs immediately. Defensive.

[Sara Brown]

Yeah. I plant more than a feld.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah, yeah.

[Sara Brown]

Okay. Yeah. I honestly, I think that the fact that he won't look at her. Part of that is he's feeling defensive. Part of it is he's feeling defensive because he knows he's kind of in the wrong.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah. Because he's feeling guilty. Yeah.

[Sara Brown]

Oh, yeah. Although he's going to get over that really quick.

[Alan Sisto]

Yes, he will. Unfortunately.

[Sara Brown]

Yeah. He doesn't answer the first two questions at all. And he only answers her third one really vaguely. I mean, first he claims that a man has to work upon land.

[Alan Sisto]

All right, that's interesting. I mean, okay, I, I. The way he says this at first, your first glance, at least for me, it was like, well, of course. Right. A man must have work to do upon land, even though we have a fair wife. Well, first of all, the second is a non sequitur.

[Sara Brown]

Right.

[Alan Sisto]

I mean, that's irrelevant to whether or not you have to work.

[Sara Brown]

Totally. Yeah.

[Alan Sisto]

But you're not the average guy. You're the king's heir. Exactly. To do this work.

[Sara Brown]

Not this work specifically, that's for sure.

[Alan Sisto]

And what's this upon land versus what is clearly the unspoken at sea? Do you not have work to do at sea? Or are you saying that only at sea is when you work? Or that's what you think horrendous thinks, like.

[Sara Brown]

Right. Or that if I'm stuck on land, I've got to have something to do.

[Alan Sisto]

Huh? Yeah. Even though my wife is beautiful, which.

[Sara Brown]

Clearly is just such a sock thrown into her.

[Alan Sisto]

That's a great way of putting it. Yeah. Yeah.

[Sara Brown]

He does the usual. Let me say something nice when he makes the fair wife comment. And that made me grit my teeth.

[Alan Sisto]

Frankly cringed at that one.

[Sara Brown]

Yeah. And then finally answers the third question with a really vague response. He says, trees come and trees go, but I've planted more than I've cut down. But he doesn't actually give her any numbers for anything.

[Alan Sisto]

Not even vague numbers like, oh, about 5,000, but we've planted about 6,000. Right. I mean, just ballpark it, man.

[Sara Brown]

He should absolutely know.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah. It's the literal of the forest. It's literally in the title. Yeah. But then more tellingly, and this is not just on Eldarion's end here, for both their parts, they are said to have never spoken about this again. Throttle them both now, please.

[Sara Brown]

Yes. Because what we have here.

[Alan Sisto]

Is failure to communicate. Yeah, we do. Over.

[Sara Brown]

Yeah, but I mean, just a little bit on horrendous society. And trust me, folks, we're gonna get to the bit of horrendous that is going to make me want to kick her butt, too. But what is the point in keeping on having these conversations with someone who just stonewalls you?

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah, that's fair.

[Sara Brown]

So there's maybe a sense in which what's the point in me actually pushing forward and trying to have this conversation? Because I'm just going to get nowhere now. That doesn't mean to say I'm letting her off the hook here.

[Alan Sisto]

No.

[Sara Brown]

Because if you're just going to wilt under this and let him get away with his very frankly, poor behavior, then that's also kind of on you.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah, that's fair.

[Sara Brown]

Yeah. Now we move ahead to 877, which is the year when Ancalime turns four, though she's not four yet. And three years after the last clear time reference, when after five years ashore, Aldarion turned to his forestry. And that was 874.

[Alan Sisto]

Right.

[Sara Brown]

And we read at this point that Aldarion at last declared openly that he wanted to sail again. You get the feeling he's been putting that off for a bit?

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah. You think? I mean, the fact that the text has to tell us this means both A, he's been wanting to sail again for some time at last, and B, he has kept this desire for Marendus until now, until basically, I can't hold it in any longer. But if you think she hasn't figured.

[Sara Brown]

This out, he's building an enormous boat. It's pretty damn obvious he's going to want to be on it. Right?

[Alan Sisto]

Exactly.

[Sara Brown]

Oh, it's my very quiet ninja boat. Maybe the wife won't work it out. Seriously, my dude.

[Alan Sisto]

Oh, man. Yeah. Absolutely clueless. If you think she's not going to figure that out. Here's the thing. I know there might be somebody out there. Come on. He just wants to get on the boat for a while. They've only been married for six years at this point, after a 12 year betrothal period which only began shortly after a 14 year journey.

[Sara Brown]

Yeah, I think she has much to say about him saying, I only want to take a little time to go on the ship because he's proved himself as not being very good at that. And this, as we read earlier, this is very much against the standards of Numenorean culture. During the days of the children, the parents are supposed to stay together and engage as parents until all the children are kind of through the household. The youngest child has to be at least seven. They've only got one and she's only three.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah, this is way too soon. Now, at this point in the story, Orendus didn't say anything. Arguably, maybe she couldn't. I mean, she might very well have found herself unable to even say anything because of the grief clearly she knew about his desire. I mean, he's really transparent about himself. Right. He's so self focused and self oriented that it's impossible for anybody who knows him to not know what he wants. Right, but she knows him well enough to know her words aren't going to change his mind.

[Sara Brown]

Right. But of course he's put off telling her because he doesn't want the confrontation.

[Alan Sisto]

No, of course not. He doesn't want to hear it.

[Sara Brown]

Yeah, no, no. But you know, nice, isn't he? He doesn't leave right away. He does wait until Uncalime's fourth birthday. I know. Such a great dad on that day. He makes a great deal of his daughter. She's loving it. She's laughing and merry. Everyone else in the house. Horrendous, yes, but also their household, far from merry. With Aeldarion ready to leave on a moment's notice or, you know, whim.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah, exactly. Little innocent Ankalame. She's four. She doesn't have a clue, an understanding at all of what's happening. She asks her dad a simple question. And this is where I get really mad at him. She says, where are you taking me this summer? Now, I want to put the sting in that a little bit. It is clear by the way she's asking this that he has made a habit of taking her places in the summer, even if it's just the one year before. I mean, she's only four, so she's not going to remember the one that she took when she was weeks old. But she might remember the last one or the one before that. So this is a little. A budding family tradition.

[Sara Brown]

Yeah. And in fact, she does even tell him where she'd like to go. She wants to see the house that Minldo had built for Arendis in Emeria Day. Yeah, but this deadbeat dad doesn't say anything about where he's going to take her. He doesn't even have the courage to say he's not going to be there.

[Alan Sisto]

And that's nothing like Step up, man, you know, if you want to say that you're going to be gone, just if you're going to be gone, you need to tell her that.

[Sara Brown]

Right? But he's leaving horrendous to break that news, isn't he?

[Alan Sisto]

Exactly. Exactly like Step up and just be like, well, you know, sweetheart, I'm actually going to be gone this summer. That big boat that we're all building down in the harbor. I'm going to head off for a little bit, but I'll Be back before you're even seven, you know, maybe even before you're six, if I can. I mean, none of us believe that. But that's his new. That's his intent. Or at least that's his stated intent.

[Sara Brown]

Well, yes, yeah, but I mean, this is just rubbish.

[Alan Sisto]

This is rubbish. And he's got another rubbish dad moment later, which is the moment where I want most to reach through the pages of the book and slap him. But we'll get there. He leaves the next day for a little while, right? To prepare the ship for travel, probably to prepare the Venturers before coming back to say goodbye. And yeah, at least he does that. But he is not getting any credit from me. That is literally the least he could do. And he does it poorly, as we're about to see.

[Sara Brown]

Oh, boy, does he. I mean, he says goodbye to Horrendous, and she begins to tear up against her will, the text says. Yeah, this next bit says so much about Aldarion. This bit is just gross and red flag. This made me so angry. Her tears made him sad, grieved him, but they also annoyed him.

[Alan Sisto]

Oh, boy. Oh, boy. When somebody's tears annoy you, that says.

[Sara Brown]

So much about you.

[Alan Sisto]

That says so much. That's a you problem.

[Sara Brown]

Especially when the person who is upset and crying is upset because of your actions.

[Alan Sisto]

Yes. Yeah.

[Sara Brown]

And she has every right to be upset here, correct?

[Alan Sisto]

I mean, I guess if we're talking about her crying because she did something foolish and she feels bad and these are tears of remorse, and he's annoyed because he's annoyed at whatever underlying thing she did. Okay, that's a whole nother story. This is not that she's crying because you are an idiot, because you are leaving because you are doing the wrong thing to her, the wrong thing to your daughter, and the wrong thing for the king's heir to do to his country.

[Sara Brown]

Right. Every single thing about this is wrong. And she has every right to feel bereft, deceived and deserted.

[Alan Sisto]

All of those things. The fact that her reluctant tears trigger not empathy at all. A sense. I get the sense that he can't even process empathy. He doesn't even understand what it is.

[Sara Brown]

No. And he doesn't want to.

[Alan Sisto]

No, of course not. Because that would limit him. Right. Empathy is a limiting thing. When you feel empathy, it means I can't do this thing because it would hurt somebody else.

[Sara Brown]

You have to think about someone other than yourself.

[Alan Sisto]

Exactly. And so it, by nature, by its very nature, limits you. And Aldarian never wants to be limited so instead of having any empathy at all, he hardens his heart. That is the most singular, most telling thing about him. Him. It just. It really does make me so angry that he, you know, how. How dare you cry because of my behavior. It's like.

[Sara Brown]

Yeah.

[Alan Sisto]

What?

[Sara Brown]

Yeah, I don't get this, man. It's bad enough that he is leaving her behind. His wife. And in numenorean terms, he hasn't been married to her for very long. No, right. Not at all. And given the length of the betrothal.

[Alan Sisto]

And the six years, which. This is basically like a year and change.

[Sara Brown]

Right? Exactly. This is nothing. And he's leaving already. This is bad enough. But he's also walking away from his child.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah. And that's where I get even more angry. But before we get to that, because we will. We get this argument from him, you know. Come on. Come on. You can't bind me forever in soft bonds. I mean, it's been eight long years since I've been. Wow.

[Sara Brown]

I was desperately trying to keep the sneer out of my voice when I was reading those lines.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah, that's. It's actually one of the reasons I gave that passage to you. Because I didn't think I could read it at all without dripping with the sneer. I wasn't so sure about you either, but I trusted you.

[Sara Brown]

Just about chores my way through it.

[Alan Sisto]

It was more like certainty of failure 1000%. Or let's just see if she can.

[Sara Brown]

Aldarion is a pathetic little man.

[Alan Sisto]

Baby in this moment, 100%. I mean, he's complaining that it's been eight long years again. Only six years married after you made her wait for a 12 year betrothal. Four or five years of which you were at sea. Your six years. Actually your last voyage was six years of that 12 year betrothal. And all of that came after a 14 year voyage.

[Sara Brown]

Yes.

[Alan Sisto]

This is insane.

[Sara Brown]

The man is so selfish. He really is. And he tries to throw his royal lineage in her face here. Of course, she doesn't come from a royal lineage. So he's like, I am so much greater than you. I am the son of the king of the blood of Tuor and Earendil. Yeah. I mean, okay, both were voyages, of course.

[Alan Sisto]

And I think that's the point he's trying to make. Right?

[Sara Brown]

Yeah.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah. They sailed a lot. You don't hear anybody complaining about those people. They're great. Everybody we look up to. Tuaren, Eren.

[Sara Brown]

You ain't those though, are you, Aldar?

[Alan Sisto]

No. No. And. And we could still make the argument about a Rendell as a father.

[Sara Brown]

Yes.

[Alan Sisto]

That's a whole nother thing.

[Sara Brown]

Poor old Elrond. And Elros, when you know your dad's a star and your mum's a bird, what are you gonna do?

[Alan Sisto]

Seriously? Oh, man.

[Sara Brown]

I mean, finally making the argument that he's not going off to die, which, you know, at this point, I wouldn't be that sad. I mean, like, really. Oh, I'm not going off to die. Really.

[Alan Sisto]

That's a shame, because you could. That'd be okay with me.

[Sara Brown]

Yes. I mean, like those two. Tuor and Arendelle might have reasonably expected that they were going off to die and that he's going to come back soon. I mean, can you hear the scare quotes around that word soon? Yeah, inverted commas. Because you have such a good track record of coming back quickly from your voyages. Whatever, my dude. Whatever.

[Alan Sisto]

Whatever. Arrendus doesn't buy soon any more than you do, dear listeners. She reminds Eldarion of two immutable facts. You can bring back a lot of things. Heck, you can bring back a big diamond like you did before, you can bring a gift, but you can't bring back the time. The time, once it is spent, is gone. And my time is less than yours, you thoughtless git.

[Sara Brown]

Yes. Yeah.

[Alan Sisto]

I mean.

[Sara Brown]

I mean, listeners, I have rarely seen Alan this worked up about a character. He's actually. You are angry, aren't you?

[Alan Sisto]

I am. I am. He's such a jerk. And I get so mad at the way he treats. Horrendous. But I get even more mad at how he treats. And calumhe here.

[Sara Brown]

Yes. Yeah. It's bad enough to treat another adult in this way. The person you're supposed to love. The person that you have pledged to.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah.

[Sara Brown]

Because when you say these promises, these are binding promises, whether you're in the primary world or the secondary world. Right. These are promises you've made to somebody, but then you make a child who has no choice about being made, being.

[Alan Sisto]

Being born, being there 1000% dependent upon you. And you do this. Yeah.

[Sara Brown]

Oh, may the caterpillar take your increase. You. My dude, could just go off to die, as far as I'm concerned.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah. Well, you know, and that the Numenorean standards say that if. If your husband, if your spouse. Because it could go either way. If your spouse dies and you're still young and in those child years, then you could get remarried, they. They wouldn't allow remarriage if the spouse is still alive. Like that didn't happen happen. It was very elvish.

[Sara Brown]

No divorce happening here.

[Alan Sisto]

No divorce.

[Sara Brown]

It's just bit of a shame at this point.

[Alan Sisto]

Oh yeah. I mean, this reminds me a little bit of the situation with Henry viii. Like he wants a divorce and they can't get a divorce. You're going to be the king. You should just decree that divorce is okay. Separate from the Church of the Eldar and form your own Church of Numenor. That says divorce is okay because you guys should not be married. But anyway, he does then other rules that Satan.

[Sara Brown]

Yeah. Baldarion at this point is Henry viii. Yes.

[Alan Sisto]

He really is quite like that. She makes the point like these are the days of the children, man, not the day of the only child. Where are my kids? And where is your heir? I gotta say, he has a. I dare say he has a duty here, a responsibility.

[Sara Brown]

He absolutely has a duty. Which dad had pointed out quite a long time ago. I mean, at this point it's decades before.

[Alan Sisto]

Oh, decades. Right.

[Sara Brown]

That it's about time you got married. It's about time you produced an heir and all that kind of thing. We are going back search a long time here. But he is married.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah.

[Sara Brown]

And he does. As the heir to the throne, he has a duty.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah.

[Sara Brown]

To produce, if possible, another heir. Right. I mean, let's just remember that genetically it is the dad that decides the gender of the child.

[Alan Sisto]

The conscious decision, though.

[Sara Brown]

No, no, this.

[Alan Sisto]

It comes from size might be a stretch, but. Yeah, true. I mean, you know, you know, keep flipping the coin. If it's gonna come up heads three times in a row, you do it again until you get tails and the boy shows up.

[Sara Brown]

Yeah. I mean, here's the thing, right? We've already seen how most Numenoreans have at least four children, right?

[Alan Sisto]

Well, they typically have no more than four. Four's like the math.

[Sara Brown]

So most Numenoreans have like four kids. Three.

[Alan Sisto]

Four kids.

[Sara Brown]

So they have. They have opportunities here.

[Alan Sisto]

The odds are good that you're gonna have a son.

[Sara Brown]

Yeah. I mean, the reason why this is so important, of course, is that the rule right now is that women can't take the throne.

[Alan Sisto]

Correct. 100% correct. And we'll definitely get into that. I think it's the next episode, it might be the one after where we start talking about the way that rule gets changed and who gets affected by that. Because if he doesn't produce a male heir, there's somebody else in the line who would be king. We'll get to that.

[Sara Brown]

Yeah, we'll get to that.

[Alan Sisto]

That's A whole other day.

[Sara Brown]

Yeah. Now, in the most direct reference to their love life that we ever get, she complains that recently and for too long her bed has been in, caught cold, in other words, empty. Now we're going to be talking about this sort of thing in the P5, but suffice here to say that the fact that she's had to say this is again, deeply telling about Aldarion.

[Alan Sisto]

Deeply telling. I mean, I don't want to spoil the postscript, so definitely go listen to the postscript. But there's some bit in there about how after kids are born there's a little bit of a less. There's less interest in, shall we say, having another one.

[Sara Brown]

One, yes.

[Alan Sisto]

Or even in engaging in the acts that might bring forth another one, especially for the mom for a little while. But they are. They are very much steadfast lovers, Tolkien said. And so the fact that that's the case, and yet she's having to make the complaint. She. Tolkien goes out of his way to say that this, this change in desire affects the mother more than it does the father. And she's the one who. Who's having a complaint.

[Sara Brown]

Right.

[Alan Sisto]

That says a lot.

[Sara Brown]

Which means that he has just not been around.

[Alan Sisto]

No, he has not. This is trouble in. You know, with a capital T, which rhymes with P, which stands for pool. I know you were all waiting for me to say something else, but it's the music man reference and I have to stick it there, you know?

[Sara Brown]

Of course you do. Of course you do.

[Alan Sisto]

All right, so the footnote here directly states what we've already pointed out, that Numenorean couples avoided the begetting of children. Children if they foresaw any separation likely between husband and wife, between the conception of the child and at least its very early years. And the footnote throws some shade Aldarian's way. Aldarion stayed in his house for a very brief time after the birth of his daughter, according to the Numenoreans idea of the fitness of things. Ours too, I might add.

[Sara Brown]

Oh yes. And instead of taking her very serious concerns about the passage of time and the days of the children seriously, he focuses in and responds solely to the last stinger about the cold bed. Yeah, but note, I have thought that you preferred it so.

[Alan Sisto]

Really? Did you ever talk about it? Did you ever talk about it? No. Because you never talk about anything.

[Sara Brown]

Well, no, no. I mean clearly again it's lack of communication, but to me this is just him finding an excuse. This is almost. Almost gaslighting.

[Alan Sisto]

It really Is.

[Sara Brown]

Oh.

[Alan Sisto]

Oh, I see. You're complaining about me not fulfilling my marital duties. I. I got the feeling you didn't want me to.

[Sara Brown]

Yeah. I mean, when has she said that?

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah.

[Sara Brown]

No, this is him. This is him looking forward.

[Alan Sisto]

Gaslighting is a good way of putting this. Yeah.

[Sara Brown]

Excuses. And also, you know, trying to perhaps make her think, well, what did I do to make you not be here? What? What did I do wrong? Which is another thing that really makes me angry. Oh, right.

[Alan Sisto]

If you think you're angry now, just wait. Because I don't know what numenorean is for. Calm down, lady. But I'm pretty sure it sounds something like, let us not be Roth, dude. Dude, she has every freaking right to be Roth with you. What the hell do you mean by saying to her when you're about to leave, oh, don't be angry. I mean, calm down. Wow.

[Sara Brown]

Oh, yeah. My husband only ever says, calm down, dear to me when he's pulling a joke because he. He knows that that is putting gasoline on the fire. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Anybody who seriously said, calm down, dear to me is going to get punched.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah. Yeah. There might even be a loss of a limb involved.

[Sara Brown]

There might well be, because I have nice, long, strong nails.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah. I mean, this is just infuriating.

[Sara Brown]

Oh. This is appalling behavior.

[Alan Sisto]

It's not so bad. I mean, he's not saying, let us not be Roth. I mean, that's literally the words he says is, let us not be Roth. But you know what he means. Don't you dare be Roth.

[Sara Brown]

Yes. Yes. Don't be angry with me.

[Alan Sisto]

Don't cry.

[Sara Brown]

Yeah.

[Alan Sisto]

Because that makes me mad.

[Sara Brown]

And don't be angry, because that makes me mad.

[Alan Sisto]

Wow.

[Sara Brown]

Don't be anything.

[Alan Sisto]

No.

[Sara Brown]

Because that makes me mad.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah. And don't complain about your cold bed, because that's your fault.

[Sara Brown]

Yes. Everything is your fault. Actually, Arendus, I'm just getting so and.

[Alan Sisto]

So more mad at this guy.

[Sara Brown]

But I think Tolkien means us to be mad at him.

[Alan Sisto]

I think he does. Oh, I absolutely think he does. That's the thing, you know, we can talk about. Oh, you know, this is. We have the freedom to interpret these characters as we wish. And we do, of course, but. But Tolkien has given us so many absolutely explicit and implicit clues. I think, number one, early on, the fact that we see that he does not love trees for trees sake is absolutely.

[Sara Brown]

That's antithetical to everything Tolkien.

[Alan Sisto]

It is so anti Tolkien. We need to be seeing this guy as somebody that Tolkien is judging hard. And we absolutely have the right to read comments like this. And see. Let us not be roth as being. Calm down, woman. Yes, we should be mad at that.

[Sara Brown]

Even you just saying those words. I know every hackle is currently raised.

[Alan Sisto]

I understand completely. And the. What he. Where he goes next is astounding. Yeah. He's so pretty. You haven't aged any. So you got plenty of time. I mean, this is the. So cringy. Where did you pull this from, my man? Oh, where did you pull this from?

[Sara Brown]

It's like he pulled out the handbook of dude bro sayings to calm the wife down.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah, yeah. Let me look this up. What is it? What do I do if she says this? I mean, this is crazy, the idea that. But she has plenty of time because she still hasn't aged physically.

[Sara Brown]

What the heck?

[Alan Sisto]

What is this?

[Sara Brown]

And you're so pretty. This is almost. You should smile more. Which would make my language go piratical.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah, yeah. This is bad because he then attaches this. So he's trying to say your need for more children or for a bed that's just not cold. Hold. Maybe a need. Okay, fine. I might grant you that. But you clearly have time because you're so pretty. And you know that's worked for him before, right? I mean, I'm thinking even if when they betrothed and he kisses her on the eyelids and she melts and says, okay, fine, he's trying to do that. He's trying to melt. Oh, you're so beautiful. It's not going to work.

[Sara Brown]

Nope.

[Alan Sisto]

But more than that, he's saying your need is less than my need. Because he says you can sacrifice this time to meet my deep need. Since when is your need?

[Sara Brown]

I have a deep need to slap him right now.

[Alan Sisto]

This is. Reach through the pages and slap him. Tie. Because what need do you have to sail the seas that is greater than her need to have you here? Her husband, the father of your child.

[Sara Brown]

Right?

[Alan Sisto]

And the potential theoretical ideal father for more children. Children. This is the time you can't go off and come back and think you're gonna have more kids. What is wrong with you, dude?

[Sara Brown]

So many things. So many.

[Alan Sisto]

So then he claims. I'm just asking for two years. Just give me two years. When have you ever been gone for just two years?

[Sara Brown]

Well, never, actually. Not one of his voyages has been that short.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah, not a single voyage. At least none of the documented ones. There were. There were some ones between. I think it was between 850 and 900. Or maybe. No, it was between 800 and 850 that we don't know about. It just says there were several voyages. Those are undocumented, so we don't know how long they were. But of all the documented voyages, none of them were two years.

[Sara Brown]

No. And you know, he's. Whether he knows it or not, he's lying here.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah.

[Sara Brown]

He's absolutely lying.

[Alan Sisto]

1,000% he is. Yeah. And it's. The two thing cracks me up. I don't know about over in the uk, but here in the States. States, if. If an office. If you're drinking and driving, it's a very terrible thing. And that's. That's actually worldwide. But when you get pulled over in the States, it's always. Have you had anything to drink tonight, sir? Just a couple beers. It's always just a couple. So the two here cracks me up because. Just a couple years. Just a couple years. No, you're not talking about just a couple years. Step out of the car. Say the Alphabet backwards. Walk this line. You're going to jail. Yes, you're going to idiot jail today, Aldarien. You really are.

[Sara Brown]

Yeah. And Arendus acknowledges the impossibility of her position. Right. She cannot negotiate with him for less time. He's already made it clear he's going. He's gonna do this no matter what she says. So. And I think this is quite clever of her here, because she's obviously deeply upset. And this is. I mean, I'd be more than upset. I'd be furious on top of the upset here. But instead of saying, no, make it one, because that's equally never going to happen.

[Alan Sisto]

Never gonna happen.

[Sara Brown]

She a, points out that he's going to do what he wants to do, regardless of whether she gives in. She's not wrong. But it's good to point that out to him because it makes it quite.

[Alan Sisto]

Clear now he knows she's in the wrong.

[Sara Brown]

Yeah. Yep. Yep. That's calling him out.

[Alan Sisto]

Yes.

[Sara Brown]

And that's a good thing. But then, B, she throws his royal lineage right back in his face.

[Alan Sisto]

I love this for her.

[Sara Brown]

Her. So I'm here for this love, this journey for her. You're a son of Arendelle and an heir to the King. Then you damn well better keep your word.

[Alan Sisto]

Yep. You just told me you're the son of Tuor and Earendil. Great. Fine. You are. Then do what they would have done. Keep your word. You make a promise, you freaking fulfill it.

[Sara Brown]

Exactly. Because that is something they are both known for. They made a vow. They gave their word. And not in a feanorian vow kind of thing. You know, they gave their word about things and they did what. What they said they were going to do. No matter the danger, no matter what they had to sacrifice, they gave their word and they kept it.

[Alan Sisto]

And in Tolkien, that is, like the highest praise you can give someone. Tolkien's characters, the ones that do what they say and say what they do, are the ones that are always the most admirable characters.

[Sara Brown]

Except for Feanor and his sons.

[Alan Sisto]

Well, that's a different kind of vow, though. I'm thinking of, like, Faramir and, you know. But, yeah, I mean, when you make a vow that calls the everlasting darkness upon you, you. Then you've gone too far.

[Sara Brown]

Yes.

[Alan Sisto]

Especially when you make a vow that binds other people.

[Sara Brown]

Yeah. That's where it's really, really wrong. And, of course, that's why when the Fellowship are gathered at the house of Elrond and Elrond says, no, no, we're not going to make any vows here. Because, you know, Elrond knows all about that.

[Alan Sisto]

He sure does. Yeah.

[Sara Brown]

He says, we're doing that. We're doing none of that. We're not going to bind anybody by the vow. And Gimli says, well, yeah, but it can strengthen you in your time of need when you know you've made a vow. He's not wrong either. No, but he don't know what Elrond knows.

[Alan Sisto]

That's true. He has not experienced that.

[Sara Brown]

About just how problematic a vow can be. Yeah. But here, here. This, I think, is clever of Arendys, but it's going to make Eldarion just as mad.

[Alan Sisto]

Oh, yeah.

[Sara Brown]

The idea that she throws this lineage back in his face, and then she's almost saying, here, are you gonna be a liar?

[Alan Sisto]

Oh, yeah.

[Sara Brown]

Are you gonna break your word?

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah. Because you've broken your word before.

[Sara Brown]

Oh, yeah.

[Alan Sisto]

Pretty much every time. Yeah.

[Sara Brown]

Yes. Yeah, Indeed. Oh, boy. Okay, so I think we should move on to another bit of the text and see if that makes us much more happy with Aeldarian and Arendus.

[Alan Sisto]

I don't think it will. There's gonna be another five weeks of misery. Yeah. All right. Next morning, Aldarian hastened away. He lifted up on Calime and kissed her. But though she clung to him, he set her down quickly and rode off. I'm just gonna say that's the moment where I just want to punch.

[Sara Brown]

Oh, I know.

[Alan Sisto]

That's the moment. I just want to punch him. I know I'm not supposed to do.

[Sara Brown]

That when I'm reading my lip was Curling, as you read, that soon after.

[Alan Sisto]

The great ship set sail from Romana Hirolonde. He named it Haven Finder, but it went from Numenor without the blessing of Tar Meneldur, and Arendus was not at the harbor to set the green bough of return. Nor did she send Eldarion's face was dark and troubled as he stood at the prow of Hirolonde, where the wife of his captain had set a great branch of oilre, but he did not look back until the Meneltarma was far off in the twilight. All that day Arendus sat in her chamber alone, grieving, but deeper in her heart she felt a new pain of cold anger, and her love for Eldarion was wounded to the quick. She hated the sea and now even trees that once she had loved she desired to look upon no more, for they recalled to her the masts of great ships, ships therefore ere long she left Armenelos and went to Emeria in the midst of the isle, wherever far and near the bleating of sheep was borne upon the wind. Sweeter it is to my ears than the mewing of gulls, she said as she stood at the doors of her white house, the gift of the king, and that was upon a down side facing west, with great lawns all about that merged without wall or hedge into the pasture. Thither she took Ancalome, and they were all the company that either had, for Orendus would have only servants in her household, and they were all women, and she sought ever to mold her daughter to her own mind, and to feed her upon her own bitterness against men. Ancalame seldom indeed saw any man, for Orendus kept no state, and her few farm servants and shepherds had a homestead at a distance. Other men did not come there, save rarely some messenger from the king, and he would ride away soon, for to men there seemed a chill in the house that put them to flight, and while there they felt constrained to speak half in a whisper. One morning, soon after Arendus came to Emeriae, she awoke to the song of birds, and there on the sill of her window were the elven birds that long had dwelt in her garden in Armenella house, but which she had left behind forgotten. Sweet fools, fly away, she said. This is no place for such joy as yours. Then their song ceased, and they flew up over the trees, thrice they wheeled above the roofs, and then they went away westwards. That evening they settled upon the sill of the chamber in the house of her father, where she had lain with Eldarion on their way from the feast in Anduneath. And there Nooneth and Beregar found them on the morning of the next day. But when Nuneth held out her hands to them, they flew steeply up and fled away. And she watched them until they were specks in the sunlight, speeding to the sea, back to the land whence they came. He is gone again, then. And left her, said Nunath. Then why has she not sent news? News? Said Beregar. Or why has she not come home? She has sent news enough, said Nooneth. But she has dismissed the elven birds, and that was ill done. It bodes no good. Why? Why? My daughter, Surely you knew what you must face. But let her alone, Bedgar. Wherever she may be, this is her home no longer. And she will not be healed here. He will come back. And then may the Valar send her wisdom or guile at the least.

[Sara Brown]

I just want to say there are at least three people in this whole thing that behaved badly.

[Alan Sisto]

Very badly.

[Sara Brown]

Yeah, and we'll get to that.

[Alan Sisto]

We. Sure.

[Sara Brown]

There are three people in this bit that you've just read that I think have behaved poorly. Anyway.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah.

[Sara Brown]

So we begin with a very perfunctory farewell from Aldarion in the morning.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah.

[Sara Brown]

I mean, I could see you gritting your teeth reading that first bit.

[Alan Sisto]

Oh, that was hard.

[Sara Brown]

Yeah. I mean, he isn't said to have spoken to Arendis at all. Instead, he only lifts up his daughter and kisses her and then he puts her down and rides off.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah, exactly.

[Sara Brown]

Awesome.

[Alan Sisto]

As a father, that's the part that just absolutely got to me.

[Sara Brown]

I don't know how any parent can do that.

[Alan Sisto]

I mean, yeah, you eventually have to go, but. But she's four. She's not going to cling to you for an hour. You can give her five minutes, man, she's clingy.

[Sara Brown]

You don't understand.

[Alan Sisto]

Alex sets her down quickly and races off. Dude, you're the king's heir. The ship is going to wait for you. This isn't like, oh, I have to hurry and get to the airport or I'll miss my flight. You've got all the time in the world.

[Sara Brown]

You could.

[Alan Sisto]

You could wait a day. Just the fact that he has all the time in the world and he chooses is to hurry to leave.

[Sara Brown]

Yeah.

[Alan Sisto]

And to do this to his daughter, to just set her down quickly. To dismiss this, the innocent love that a child has for their parent, that is heartbreaking in a different way. I'm not going to say more so than to see the heartbreak that Eldarion and Horrendous have caused each other. But it's a. It's sort of a qualitative difference rather than a quantitative difference, I guess. But it should just. It just kills me. And. And now the. The camera moves to Romena, right? The scene picks up and moves. You can imagine it, right? Everybody's there to watch this huge vessel make its maiden voyage. Turanto, the wooden whale, now given its right name, Hirolande, which means Haven finder. And you might even recognize that londe element from Vinalande, which means New Haven or Young Haven right now.

[Sara Brown]

But even if the people are there to see this undoubtedly impressive site, they are once again sailing without the blessing of the King. Now, of course, in all of this, we haven't heard anything from Tarman Elder.

[Alan Sisto]

We will eventually, but.

[Sara Brown]

Well, we will absolutely. But in this bit, we haven't heard from him. All we know is that clearly Aldarion is going without the permission or the blessing of his father. He's just going anyway. And Arendis does not come to put the bow of return on the prow. And she doesn't even send someone to do it on her behalf. Yeah, and this makes the point. He is sailing without her blessing as well.

[Alan Sisto]

That's a clear message. And Eldarion gets it right. Instead, he has to rely on the wife of his captain to do the job, leaving his face looking dark and troubled. Gee, maybe there's a good reason why you're feeling troubled. I don't know. Maybe.

[Sara Brown]

Oh, dear. Poor Eldarion. Whatever.

[Alan Sisto]

I'm not going to say that again anytime soon.

[Sara Brown]

No, not. And mean it. In the meantime, Arendus is in her bedroom and her grief. And here's the turning point. This is the turning point.

[Alan Sisto]

It is.

[Sara Brown]

This grief is finally turning to a cold anger. It's a critical moment in the story, folks, because she is done, done, done, done. Oh, yeah. We're told that her love for her husband was wounded to the quick. That means, of course, it was deeply wounded.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah, to the quick. It's. The quick is that part of your skin underneath your fingernail that's super sensitive and super tender. And so the idea of something being wounded to the quick means that, you know, it's to the most tender, sensitive spot and you're. It's really severely wounded.

[Sara Brown]

Big ouchy.

[Alan Sisto]

This is a big ouchy. And yeah, you're right. This is the turning point. And this is. I am reminded that the opposite of love is not hate, but Indifference.

[Sara Brown]

Yes.

[Alan Sisto]

And we are now at that point, she does not care. He is arguably long stopped caring.

[Sara Brown]

But she's now cold.

[Alan Sisto]

But she's now cold. And that's. Yeah, you can fix anger and hate, but you can't fix cold. And I don't mean that to imply that he could fix any of this by doing anything other than changing his own behavior. But my point is that a person, like if I'm suffering from. From anger, well, I can get over the anger. I can even maybe get over the hatred. But how do you get over a total indifference?

[Sara Brown]

You don't.

[Alan Sisto]

You don't.

[Sara Brown]

Yeah, you don't. That's you emotionally removed from the situation.

[Alan Sisto]

In this case, totally for her own protection. The cold anger is a very interesting phrase because this is the same horrendous whose love was not yet chilled to the death when he returned after that 14 year voyage in 869 before they were wedding. But here's the thing. She warned him even then, let not winter return. But man, he just keeps on bringing the snow, doesn't he?

[Sara Brown]

Yeah, he does. And I think it's really interesting that Tolkien keeps with that extended metaphor, chilled, cold winter, all of those things.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah, really is.

[Sara Brown]

I mean, here's a reminder, right? It's 877, she's 106 years old. She has loved Aldarion unceasingly since she met him. Him 77 years ago.

[Alan Sisto]

77 years she's loved this guy. Yeah, this is an all time fumble on Aldarian's part. He is throwing away. And he's already been throwing it away all along, but he is now completely.

[Sara Brown]

This is it now, thrown away.

[Alan Sisto]

An undying love so that he could just take to the sea yet again. I'm going to, I'm going to remind you folks, he's been to sea for at least 10 voyages, probably more and more than 50 years in his life. He has sailed enough, man.

[Sara Brown]

Yeah, but the point of course is that Arendis isn't his true love. No, no, he's bound her to that. She is no longer free. So he's got what he wants on both sides. Yeah, he's got the wife, he's got the sea. He can do as he pleases. But it's horrendous that is trapped, if you like.

[Alan Sisto]

Absolutely.

[Sara Brown]

And her pain is so deep, her anger and her hatred are kind of coming to the fore now that she not hates the sea, which of course, if you remember, she's always viewed as her foe. But now she even doesn't like the trees, she can't bear to look at them because they remind her of ship masts. This is kind of sad.

[Alan Sisto]

That is very sad. I mean, he's. He's damaged even the love that she had for something that she had before she even knew who he was, you know?

[Sara Brown]

Right.

[Alan Sisto]

It doesn't say this here, but I. I really feel like we need to just come back to that underlying theme we've talked about for us. Defeat the sea or be defeated utterly. And this. This is her utter defeat.

[Sara Brown]

It is, Yep. And she leaves their home in Armenelos and she goes back to Emmeria because there, of course, there is no sea to face and not even a lot of trees. It's the rolling hills of pasture land.

[Alan Sisto]

We do get that really cool reminder of Scotty and Njord and her comment about the. The sound of the wailing gulls versus the sound of the bleeding of the sheep. I know. So for those who don't know what we're talking about, we actually talked about that in the mega P5 for the first few episodes. Really, really interesting insights there.

[Sara Brown]

Yes, absolutely. And we also get the reminder that this house was the gift of Meneldor. And I think that's an interesting reminder since soon our next reading that's coming up, she's going to be faced with a command from the king. Right now. There's a lovely description of the lands here at Nmeria. The hill slopes down from the door of the house towards the west and the home is surrounded by grass lawns that simply become the pastures. In other words, there's no fences, no hedges, no walls, no divisions of any kind. It's just unending rolling hills. It's kind of a metaphor almost of what the sea looks like, isn't it? No barriers, no borders, just the unending rolling. But one is the land and the.

[Alan Sisto]

Lawn just becomes the pastures. And it's a beautiful place. I. I feel like this would be where I would enjoy life, you know? Yep. Up in the mountains, you know, looking. Looking out and down from the slopes of the lower slopes of the metal.

[Sara Brown]

To infinitely prefer this to being out on the ocean in a wooden boat. Just saying.

[Alan Sisto]

And. And certainly even, let's say Romenda. I don't want to necessarily be in a harbor town. I mean, okay, if. If I can't be in a. I'd want to be in Andunier. There's a harbor town I'm okay with because the elves show up there and you're near the fragrant trees, you know?

[Sara Brown]

Yes. So it all sounds really beautiful.

[Alan Sisto]

Love that. Love that.

[Sara Brown]

Yeah.

[Alan Sisto]

So she brings her daughter here, and it's just the two of them. Right. Horrendous. Is said to have only servants in her house, though. That made me wonder to myself, like, who else would she have over? I mean, she's just gonna have a household staff. Right? Who else would she have?

[Sara Brown]

Yeah. But she's also the wife of the heir to the throne, so she. She could have chosen to have had ladies of the court.

[Alan Sisto]

That's true.

[Sara Brown]

Or, you know, somebody like that, for companionship.

[Alan Sisto]

That's true. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Ladies in waiting sort of thing.

[Sara Brown]

Right, exactly. So she only has servants because, of course, she doesn't answer to any of those. They answer to her. And I think she's had enough of answering to people, which is going to come up very soon. Also note that these servants are all women. So here is where we hit. Hit a real problematic stage with Arrendis. We now officially enter the misandry stage of Arendus's life. And misandry is a word I really dislike. I'm gonna say.

[Alan Sisto]

I do, too. I had to be. When I put that in the notes, I was like, okay, am I gonna actually have us discuss that? But I think we need to. I mean, she makes it clear, the bitterness that she has.

[Sara Brown]

Yeah. She doesn't want men around. The reason why I have a problem with the word missandry here is because. All right, so it comes down to the idea of power. Right, Right. There is a power imbalance in misogyny, in which the woman is always treated as less than and has a greater fight for equality and all that kind of thing. Misandry is a word that is made up to communicate the same idea of trying to subjugate men in a similar way that women are subjugated. But that power imbalance in this world does not exist.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah, no, I see your. I'm. I want to be really careful here. I. Yeah, you're absolutely right about the power imbalance. I think that's. That is key. And I don't want to draw an equivalency between misogyny and misandry, but we can talk about it, because there's a structural and power imbalance, and you're 1000% right about that. And so somebody who is misogynistic has at their disposal the power of the entire system. The system at their disposal. And victims of those do not. The misandrist and the quote unquote, reverse racism, if you want to call it that. Don't have that. Power at their disposal.

[Sara Brown]

And so it's certainly have prejudice. Yes.

[Alan Sisto]

And that's a good way of putting it. So what she has here is a not entirely unreasonable, let's be totally reasonable prejudice against men. Prejudice against men that she takes to an extreme. And this is where we get into a problem because now we get into this indoctrination of uncallumin.

[Sara Brown]

Yes. This is where I start getting angry with Horrendous.

[Alan Sisto]

I mean look at those words. Words sought ever to mold her to her own mind and to feed her upon her own bitterness against men.

[Sara Brown]

Do not like this. No, no, no, no, no, no.

[Alan Sisto]

Now she gets as much blame as Eldarion at this point. This is the turning point for her.

[Sara Brown]

Yeah. Because you know what? Irendus has every right to be angry at Aldarion.

[Alan Sisto]

Thousand percent. She does.

[Sara Brown]

Yes. And every right to decide at this point. Actually she wants nothing more to do with.

[Alan Sisto]

With him.

[Sara Brown]

He can beg her off to sea and never come back. As far as she is concerned. She even. Because this is the only power she really has. She can fit her household as a household of women.

[Alan Sisto]

Yes.

[Sara Brown]

Yep. Because again, she's using the very small amount of power that she currently has to create a household of women. Only because of her prejudice now not just against Aldarion, but against all men. Because all men as far as she's concerned, have, you know, they're all to blame for every. Everything. Now she's taken that to an extreme. Yes. But here where she is actually using her own anger and her own disappointment and her own fury against what Aldarion has done to her and creating in her daughter, her four year old daughter, a similar hatred of men.

[Alan Sisto]

This is so wrong and it is so deeply harmful.

[Sara Brown]

Oh, this is child abuse.

[Alan Sisto]

It is. It is 1000% child abuse. She is. She is absolutely damaging on Calumet. And you've got to remember, okay, maybe at this point Horrendous doesn't know. She doesn't know. She can't know. She isn't even thinking that the possibility that Ankalame is going to be a queen, we know is the reason she's gonna. Yeah, it's not the law. The law is that we gotta have an heir. And if he doesn't come back and produce a child with me, and guess what? I'm not gonna be interested in that process. So he's out of law.

[Sara Brown]

Oh no.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah. You know, so. So they're stuck. They can solve the king problem themselves, but it ain't going to be on Calumet. We Know, as readers, this little girl who's being raised to hate men, let's be completely blunt.

[Sara Brown]

Oh, yes.

[Alan Sisto]

Is going to become the ruling queen of Numenor. And this childhood trauma, this abuse is going to echo through the years, through the centuries, because of her leadership.

[Sara Brown]

Absolutely. This is. Is the most appalling bit here.

[Alan Sisto]

This is where in a chapter full of appalling.

[Sara Brown]

Yeah. So far I have been pretty much on Arendus's side. Right. I think she's been treated very, very badly.

[Alan Sisto]

Very badly.

[Sara Brown]

And by the way, her mother. I have things to say about her mother because her mother is also damaged.

[Alan Sisto]

Her mother is awful. We will get to that. Yeah.

[Sara Brown]

But what Arendus is doing here to Ancalame is unforgivable. I mean, even if Ancalame was never going to become queen, that is irrelevant.

[Alan Sisto]

It totally is irrelevant. Yeah.

[Sara Brown]

Damaging this child's psyche in this way is just the most disgusting thing to do.

[Alan Sisto]

It's awful.

[Sara Brown]

It's. This is unforgivable for me. What she's doing here.

[Alan Sisto]

This is where she goes. We've already talked about Aldarian going too far. And we're done with him now.

[Sara Brown]

Yeah.

[Alan Sisto]

This is the point for me with her.

[Sara Brown]

Yes.

[Alan Sisto]

Right here. Four year old daughter that you are teaching to hate men.

[Sara Brown]

Yes. Yeah. I mean, in divorces it is never good when one parent tells the kids the other parent is the bad guy. This. This is not a good thing at all.

[Alan Sisto]

No, it's not. I can testify to that because my. Both my parents are dead, so they'll never listen to this episode. But yeah, they split when I was 10 and I got that. Oh.

[Sara Brown]

Yeah. So, I mean, that is not good. That is a really very bad, not good thing to do.

[Alan Sisto]

Very.

[Sara Brown]

Okay, very bad. Yeah. But Arendis doesn't just do that. She takes it to the nth degree.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah.

[Sara Brown]

She doesn't just say, hey, Ankala May, your dad is a deadbeat. He's an absolute.

[Alan Sisto]

Which she would have every right to say.

[Sara Brown]

Yeah, but you still shouldn't really.

[Alan Sisto]

No, you still shouldn't. No, you don't throw the parent under the bus to the.

[Sara Brown]

No, you let the kid work it out for themselves. Because you know what? They will eventually work out which parent is the deadbeat. But she just goes so far here, because it's not just about your dad is a deadbeat. This is about all men are orphans.

[Alan Sisto]

All men are awful. Which again, I can understand why she's gone there. She's not right to have done so, but I can understand. I can empathize with that. But where I stop being able to empathize is with her indoctrination of Ankala in that.

[Sara Brown]

Yeah, yeah. Because this is so wrong. Yeah. I mean, not surprisingly, given the all female composition of Hirendi's household stuff, Ankalame nearly never even sees a man. Right. The male farm workers. And there are male farm workers around, but they have their own homestead and it's far off. And whenever a man does show up, like a king's messenger, they stay for as little time as they possibly can because as the text tells us, a chill. Look at that coldness. Again, a chill in the house had put them to flight. And of course, there's a sense that they could not speak above a whisper. So, you know, can you blame them.

[Alan Sisto]

For wanting to go? Can you imagine? You're the king's messenger sent to deliver a message. I don't want to go there. Can you send somebody else? I'm off sick. I've taken vacation this week. It's not my show.

[Sara Brown]

Surely it's Bob's turn.

[Alan Sisto]

That's right.

[Sara Brown]

Right.

[Alan Sisto]

Send Bob. He's been there before.

[Sara Brown]

That's why Bob doesn't want to go again.

[Alan Sisto]

Exactly. Then we get peak symbolic sorrow with the arrival, sad moment and dismissal. It's like in case you haven't gotten it yet, Tolkien is saying, right, so we get this arrival and swift dismissal of the birds that were brought as a gift from the elves. So sad.

[Sara Brown]

Yeah, yeah. Because the last we saw them, they'd followed Erendis back to her place in Armenelos. They've been in three places that we've seen. The White House in Ameriyea, her folks house and their home in the capital.

[Alan Sisto]

That's right. Now, when she left Armenalas, the text suggests she'd forgotten them, but I had to say I'm not sure she didn't just consciously, awarely leave them. I mean, why would she pack them up? And what's she gonna do?

[Sara Brown]

Why would she take them? Yes.

[Alan Sisto]

She might have forgotten that she left them. You know, like, now I'm up here, it's taken me a week or two to get settled in and. Oh, they're here. Oh, those stupid things, you know?

[Sara Brown]

Yeah. What? What on earth do I need them for?

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah, right.

[Sara Brown]

She knows they can understand speech because the elves spoke to them and named Horrendous. Right. So she speaks to them and she tells them to fly away, calls them sweet fools, and she declares that this here is a joy free zone.

[Alan Sisto]

Oh, and it sure is, as we'll find out little enough laughter, I think. Is the line coming? That's just heartbreaking. So the birds leave. But they head to the only other place that they have known with her. Her parents. So the scene shifts there to Nuneth and Beregar and their discovery. The birds on their windowsill the following morning. This is where we'll get to chat a little bit about her. Her parental units, or at least her mom.

[Sara Brown]

So the birds apparently are there only to deliver the message. Because when Nuneth reaches out for them, they fly off west. They're on their long flight back to Tol Eressia.

[Alan Sisto]

Which. And I know we're going to get to Nuneth here in a minute, but I gotta ask you. What do you think went through the minds of the elves who'd brought the birds to her? When the birds eventually got back to Toloresia, somebody would have noticed.

[Sara Brown]

Why are they back?

[Alan Sisto]

Oh, but just like the sorrow. Because that's such. You would imagine. I mean, you almost think that their first thought would have been, oh no, did Aldarion die?

[Sara Brown]

Yeah. I mean, let's also think about timing here. Right? These birds have been in Arendus possession for only six years.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah.

[Sara Brown]

To an elf. How long is that?

[Alan Sisto]

Blink of an eye? Yeah.

[Sara Brown]

Right. So to an elf, they've barely handed them over and gone home. And the birds have come back.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah. Like boomerang birds. Yeah.

[Sara Brown]

Right. So that didn't take long.

[Alan Sisto]

No, no, that's wild.

[Sara Brown]

Maybe. Yeah, maybe they would wonder if Aldarion has died. But if Aldarion has died and Arendelle, this still loved him and is grieving.

[Alan Sisto]

She would keep the birds as a reminder.

[Sara Brown]

Birds. Right. So the birds have gone back because something has gone horribly wrong. Marriage. And in the blink of an eye.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah, because it was wrong before they even got married. As we pointed out.

[Sara Brown]

Like so wrong.

[Alan Sisto]

So bad idea. Bad idea.

[Sara Brown]

Nuneth understands the significance of this. She gets it. Aldarion has left. And her dad, Bedagar. He does wonder. Why hasn't she sent word of this to us? Or more than that, why hasn't she come home to us?

[Alan Sisto]

Sir, the birds are the news. That's. Yeah. You know, really, that's just it. But then we return to Nuneth. And this is where we get one of those moments where I think you're going to tell us what a. What an awful person she is. And you'd be right. She chides her absent daughter. You knew what you must face.

[Sara Brown]

Oh, Victim blaming, victim blaming.

[Alan Sisto]

And it comes back to that stuff we talked about when she gave her daughter Very, very bad advice about how, you know, you have to share your husband's love or make him a thing unlovable. Remember that.

[Sara Brown]

Oh, I do.

[Alan Sisto]

Ooh, what cringy advice that is.

[Sara Brown]

Yes, but what's. What's going on here is that essentially Nooneth is blaming her daughter for her choices. You chose to marry him rather than blaming Eldarion for being an appalling husband and a deadbeat dad.

[Alan Sisto]

Exactly.

[Sara Brown]

It's not the woman's fault. No, she. She didn't choose wrongly. The man was wooing her in earnest and they got married. And she believed his promises. Right. So it's not her fault. It's the fault of Aldarion. Yeah, but Nuneth is blaming Arendys, not Aldarion. You must have known what was going to happen. Really? Really.

[Alan Sisto]

Nuneth, what were you wearing? Arendus?

[Sara Brown]

This is the example of. Of parenting that Arendes has to follow.

[Alan Sisto]

Yep. Yeah, that's a good point. That's a good point. Because, you know, we're going to start getting in the moments here where we start criticizing horrendous parenting for good reason. Yes, but what did she have as a model?

[Sara Brown]

Right. This is what she had as a model.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah.

[Sara Brown]

And remember that discussion that we had way back when, possibly in the first of the episodes where we were talking about the line from which Arendis comes.

[Alan Sisto]

Yes.

[Sara Brown]

And the line of Beor. And it traces all the way back to who now? Morwen.

[Alan Sisto]

Morwen.

[Sara Brown]

And we see Morwen as a mother. And she is quite cold as a mother. It doesn't mean she doesn't love her children. She grieves deeply when Lalith dies.

[Alan Sisto]

Oh, my goodness.

[Sara Brown]

And when her other two children go missing, she's frantic.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah.

[Sara Brown]

But when it comes to mothering, she's quite hands off, quite cold. This is who she is. It does seem that this is going down the line, doesn't it?

[Alan Sisto]

Boy, it sure does. It sure does.

[Sara Brown]

Yeah. She also. She tells her husband to let Arrendis be because A, this isn't her home. I mean, ouch. And B, she won't get any better here. Well, that latter bit is almost certainly true, given how you'd like her. But let's look at the first bit. Why shouldn't she be permitted to return home? This is her parental home, her childhood home. Why wouldn't you want to go back?

[Alan Sisto]

She is over 100 years old, but the equivalent is, what do we say, around 40. It is a little old to be going home, but in this circumstance, why not?

[Sara Brown]

At least for a visit Right. I'm not talking about moving in.

[Alan Sisto]

Well, no, no, we're not going to. I'm sorry, Irendis. We've already turned it into a sewing room. You're not moving back in.

[Sara Brown]

Which is quite possible that Nunes did that the day she left.

[Alan Sisto]

Frankly, quite probably, yeah.

[Sara Brown]

It's also not said that Arrendis ever wanted to go back home.

[Alan Sisto]

Well, that's the thing. In fact, not only does Orendus not seem to ever want to go back home, later on will read that she doesn't even allow her daughter to go visit her parents. She won't even let her go see Grandma and Grandpa. Which, again, we'll get to parents stuff in a bit. But, yeah, I thought. I mean, again, okay, maybe she didn't even want to go home. But I'm with the dad here. Like, why hasn't she. More important than sending word. Because, fine, the birds of the news. Why doesn't she come home to a place where she'd be safe and, well.

[Sara Brown]

Your wife is probably the reason.

[Alan Sisto]

Probably New Neth. Yeah, probably New Neth. So Nuneth concludes that Aldarion is going to come back. I mean, well, yeah, I guess he could die, but he is the king's heir, so he kind of needs to come back.

[Sara Brown]

Back.

[Alan Sisto]

So she's thinking ahead to that moment a little bit. Like Eldarion, she thinks ahead a lot. She's a bit of a schemer, right? You know, she wanted royal grandchildren. Well, she wanted beautiful grandchildren. And if they're raised in a royal household, that's not a problem. So she prays that the Valar will. And I like this. Give her wisdom. Okay? But failing that, if they choose not to give her wisdom, give her guile. Guile is sly or cunning, intelligence, devious.

[Sara Brown]

I do not like this.

[Alan Sisto]

I don't like that at all. Give her strength. Give her. Give her a steel backbone. Give her courage. And. And give her, you know, resiliency to.

[Sara Brown]

Slam the door in his face when he does come and say, daryon, you can sleep in a tent in the garden for all I care. Not guile.

[Alan Sisto]

That's awful. You want her to model this for your granddaughter? Yeah, I. I.

[Sara Brown]

Like I said, what does this say about their relationship, the grandparents? This is. What does this say about Nuneth herself?

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah, well, that's the thing. She's gonna have some guile of her own, frankly, to want guile to be given to her daughter. And we see that. I think that whole bit about wanting royal grandchildren is. I think a little bit of guile. Going on a little bit of that cunning intelligence to me. You know, we talked earlier about people who keep their word being people that Tolkien looks up to. People that Tolkien wants us to look up to, I should say.

[Sara Brown]

Yeah.

[Alan Sisto]

I think guilelessness is another trait, if that's even a word. Right. The lack of.

[Sara Brown]

Oh, no, it is a word. That absolutely is a word.

[Alan Sisto]

Guilelessness is. Is a trait that innocence. You know, it's. Except it's not an unknowing innocence. It's not a foolish innocence, a clueless innocence.

[Sara Brown]

No.

[Alan Sisto]

A chosen innocence.

[Sara Brown]

It's not even someone who decides they're not going to be sly or cunning or devious.

[Alan Sisto]

They're going to be. Be upfront. They're going to say what they mean and mean what they say. We come back to that again.

[Sara Brown]

Yeah, yeah, I know what kind of person I prefer.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah. And I certainly don't want my parents asking the fowler to give me guile.

[Sara Brown]

Yeah.

[Alan Sisto]

Wow. Yuck. Indeed. Hello, this is Jack Wilson, the host of the History of Literature podcast. For the past 10 years, I've been talking to novelists, novelists, biographers and scholars about the greatest books in the history of the world and the men and women who wrote them. Like our recent episodes on Dante in Love, a starter pack of 10 Indian classics, the pop culture that influenced Sylvia Plath, and a talk with scientist and novelist Alan Lightman about the wonders of nature. Join us at the History of Literature Podcast wherever you get your podcasts.

[Sara Brown]

Now, we told you about the amazing PPP community after our earlier break. If you're a part of that community and you want to enjoy something even more special, come and join the Fellowship of the podcast on Patreon. You get to be in the best discord community around, one that includes host hangouts and even live episode recordings.

[Alan Sisto]

In fact, we've got some folks right now listening to this episode being recorded live. Indeed, if they're still sticking around after. After the incredibly long episode that we're doing here. Your support there over at Patreon, by the way, is what enables me to work full time doing all of these shows. The ppp, Today's Tolkien Times, Rings of Power wrap up when that comes back and my streaming show, the PPP plays. And when you join, you also get episode postscripts, ad free episodes, free merch, and more.

[Sara Brown]

Now you can join these questions after Nightfall episodes or even appear as a guest in the north wing. Go to patreon.com prancingponypod to show your support. Support and join the Fellowship of the podcast.

[Alan Sisto]

And don't forget to rate and review on Apple Podcasts and Spotify. And please recommend us to your friends. You can do that even directly on Spotify. Now just share the show with your friends. Sarah we only have time. Well, arguably we only had time to do three readings, but we are going to do a fourth one. So if you could take us away and close us out.

[Sara Brown]

Today's last Reading okay, When the second year after Aeldarion's sailing came in in by the King's wish, Erendis ordered the house in Armenelos to be arrayed and made ready, but she herself made no preparation for return to the king. She sent answer, saying, I will come if you command me, attar Aranya. But have I a duty now to hasten? Will it not be time enough when his sale is seen in the east? And to herself she said, will the king have me wait upon the quays like a sailor's lap? Alas, would that I were but I am so no longer. I have played that part to the full. But that year passed, and no sail was seen, and the next year came and waned to autumn. Then Arendis grew hard and silent. She ordered that the house in Armenelos be shut, and she went never more than a few hours journey from her house in Ameri. Such love as she had was all given to her daughter, daughter and she clung to her, and would not have Ancalime leave her side, not even to visit nooneth and her kin in the Westlands. All Ancalime's teaching was from her mother, and she learned well to write and to read, and to speak the Elven tongue with Erendes after the manner in which high men of Numenor used it for in the Westlands it was a daily speech in such houses as Beregaz, and Arendis seldom used the Numenorean tongue, which Aldarion loved the best better much. Ancalime also learned of Numenor and the ancient days in such books and scrolls as were in the house which she could understand, and lore of other kinds of the people and the land. She heard at times from the women of the household, though of this Arendis knew nothing but the women were chary of their speech to the child, fearing their mistress and there was little enough of laughter for Ancalime in the White House. In a merry age it was hushed and without music, as if one had died there not long since for in Numenor in those days it was the part of men to play upon instruments, and the music that Ancalime heard in childhood was the singing of women at work, out of doors and away from the hearing of the White lady of Ameri. But Now Ancalime was 7 years old, and as often as she could get leave, leave, she would go out of the house and onto the wide downs where she could run free. And at times she would go with a shepherdess, tending the sheep and eating under the sky.

[Alan Sisto]

All right, so we get another time reference. Right. It's two years after he sailed. So that means we're in 879. Now, recall, he'd promised to only be gone for two years, so even the king is expecting him home soon. Right. I mean.

[Sara Brown]

Right, yeah. So the king had communicated to Hirendus that she should make their house ready, presumably stuff it back up, get it cleaned, food stocked, etc, and while she does this, she obviously isn't planning to come herself. So she sends a reply to Minelda explaining this.

[Alan Sisto]

That's right. I mean, I'll come if you command it. I mean, after all, he is the king. She calls him royal father. That's what attar aranya means. So this isn't like, like the terms of endearment necessarily. I mean, I think it is, but it's not, you know, explicitly a term of endearment like we saw Meneldor use with his son before. So attar is just father, as in iluvatar, father of all, or atanatari, fathers of men. So that's plural. And aranya is royal. But her point is like, do I have to hurry? I mean, how about I come when we spot him sailing in? And I think the unspoken thing here is, do you really believe he's going to come home when he said he's going to come home? I've got years of experience to suggest otherwise, and I frankly don't want to wait for months or even years in Armenolaus.

[Sara Brown]

Right. Where Erendis daughter, who she's kept isolated from men all of this time, will undoubtedly encounter them. And of course, so will Arendis.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah. Because, you know, that way I can keep up my indoctrination a little bit more. More effectively. I can keep my brainwashing going on. Teaching. Yeah, that's what I'm doing. I'm teaching her to not like men.

[Sara Brown]

Sure.

[Alan Sisto]

But, you know, she doesn't want to see men either. Right. She's. She's really grown accustomed to this comfortable life, this life that is comfortable for her because it is fully under her control, whereas all the things before were under Eldarion's Control. And she just had to sit around and wait.

[Sara Brown]

And I think that word, control, that's the important thing here. I think it really is, because this is the only thing that is. Is under horrendous control. Her daughter and the life that she has made in a mediea. Whereas everything else, somebody else, is dictated.

[Alan Sisto]

And so the idea of having to go to our Menelaus, she does not want to do that.

[Sara Brown]

Yeah. In some ways, you can absolutely understand the way that Arendes is thinking.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah. So to herself. Look, she's imagining the king wants her waiting at the dock like a sailor's girlfriend. To use a bad metaphor, that ship has sailed.

[Sara Brown]

Oh, boy.

[Alan Sisto]

I regret that. As I said, say it, but.

[Sara Brown]

Yeah, sure you do. It seems the King was okay with her delay because we're not told anything else. And since she's still in. A year and a half later, in the autumn of 880. Well, I'm sure you're all as surprised as we are that Aldariana somehow failed to keep his promise to only be gone for two years. Shocked, I tell you. Stunned.

[Alan Sisto]

Exactly.

[Sara Brown]

And now her cold anger has gone even, even colder. It's hard and silent.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah, we're past the point of no return, but I think we passed that point a long time ago.

[Sara Brown]

Yeah, but this is just confirming her.

[Alan Sisto]

Exactly. Yeah, this is absolutely confirming that. So she shuts down the house in Hermenelas. She remains in Emerie, stays very close to her home. Just a short trip for the White House. I think we see a journey of a few hours. Remember, she's not in a car. So this is a journey of a few hours is not very far at all. All.

[Sara Brown]

No.

[Alan Sisto]

And so then we move back to her relationship with an. Now a girl of seven.

[Sara Brown]

Yeah, this is a really unhealthy focus on her daughter. She doesn't even allow her to go and visit her grandparents or extended family. She keeps her very close. It's, you know, can't let her out of her sight. This is not good.

[Alan Sisto]

She's creating a codependency that is deeply unhealthy for the mother. Both.

[Sara Brown]

I agree.

[Alan Sisto]

And now she's homeschooling her, which is fine, but it does make me wonder, were there schools or academies of some sort, especially for, you know, noble families? I. I'm gonna have to look into nature, Middle Earth, for the postscript because that sounds like the kind of thing Tolkien probably included in the Lives of the Numorians essay. Again, not that homeschooling is a bad thing, but here we only have horrendous teaching her. She's the curriculum writer and she's the instructor. This is back bad. This is a bad example of it.

[Sara Brown]

Yes, it really is a bad example. I mean, academically and Calime seems to be doing all right. She's learning how to read and write. She's even learning how to speak Sindarin. And this is where we learn a bit more about what we talked about in a recent postscript that not only was Sindarin spoken in Numenor, but that for the people in this part of the aisle, it's their daily tongue. It's their first tongue, if you like. Adunaic. On the other hand, while it's known, it's not as regularly used and Arendis uses it even less than that. Partly, of course, because Aldarion preferred it.

[Alan Sisto]

That's why she can't even look at trees anymore. They remind her of the masts of ships. Well, the last thing she wants to do is speak the language that he preferred. There is a lot more on the language bit in the Mega postscript for the first five episodes of the chapter. Join the Fellowship of the podcast for that and other extras in the meantime, besides languages, Ankalamy was also learning history, both of Numenor and the First Age Age, from written source material, as well as stories from the women who lived with Hirendis.

[Sara Brown]

Yeah. Now, what sort of stories do you think they'd have told as opposed to the scrolls and books? And what do you make of the fact that Hirendis didn't know anything about this learning? The way it's phrased seems to assume it's a given that she would disapprove. But why? Why do you think? What is it that they are telling her that Erendis would not want her daughter to be taught?

[Alan Sisto]

I'm not even sure it's the content. It's the fact that you hit on this earlier. It's the control issue. For Orendus, it is all about her being the sole influence on Ancalame. And she can't abide the thought of anybody, even one of her household women, having an influence on an. Because that influence might be counter to what she wants for her. So I think it just comes back to that control.

[Sara Brown]

I think you could be right there.

[Alan Sisto]

It's yes, the scrolls and books versus the stories the women would tell her. I don't know. I mean, obviously we don't know. There's nothing that's said, but I almost feel like it's the human stories, like Eldarion and Hirendis would be a story that might be told but not written down in the scrolls.

[Sara Brown]

But these stories are going to include men. It'd be the stories of the great deeds of men.

[Alan Sisto]

God forbid one of them actually be a hero. The last thing you want. It's definitely control.

[Sara Brown]

I think so, too. Yes.

[Alan Sisto]

Tolkien uses another fantastic word here. It's somewhat archaic, the word cherry, to say that it's the one. It's spelled C H A R Y. The women of Horrendous household were Cherry to speak with her. That just means that they were cautious, they were anxious, they were wary to speak much with her. And that's because they were afraid of Horrendous for a reason, even though that reason is unsaid. Said I, I would definitely understand why a man would be cherry. Heck, a man is afraid to even speak above a whisper and wants to get out of there as quick as possible. But why the women? I wonder if. Do you think that Horrendous has actually done anything that would make her household women afraid of her other than just her general lack of happiness?

[Sara Brown]

Yeah, there's that. But I think that she's probably made her feelings clear about this is the way things. Things are. Do not. Do not stand against me. If this is a woman who is taking absolute control of her life, given that this is the only time she's ever been able to do that, the idea of even a servant disobeying her or doing anything that she doesn't want is going to make her absolutely furious.

[Alan Sisto]

You wonder if one or two of them had run afoul of her and have been summarily dismissed.

[Sara Brown]

Probably, yeah. Yes.

[Alan Sisto]

And, you know, brutally so with like, minimal, you know, like for minimal cause, you know, like a small, you know, mistake leads to, you know, termination.

[Sara Brown]

Yeah. You told a story about a seafarer. You're gone.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah. Farewell, goodbye. I could buy that. I can totally buy that. There's probably by this point, since it's been a couple of years, there will have been some turnover and the stories about how, you know, Horrendous's temper or her quick trick trigger, you know, probably have the women afraid.

[Sara Brown]

I get the feeling she's probably not the kind of person for whom anger shows in shouting and fury and all that kind of. It would be so cold, like an ice queen, and it would be scary.

[Alan Sisto]

This is an emotionless place. I know. We'll read later, actually. I think just right up next, we talk about it being joyless, but I feel like this is a Cold, emotionally cold place. Not just no joy, but no kindness, no warmth, no sympathy, no sorrow, no nothing.

[Sara Brown]

What an awful atmosphere for a young girl to grow up in. Any child to grow up in this kind of atmosphere.

[Alan Sisto]

Terrible.

[Sara Brown]

We earlier, we talked about it being child abuse and we are not wrong about that. This is absolutely child abuse 100. Yeah. Because this fear that the women servants have combined with horrendous own total lack of joy or laughter, this means Ancalame grows up in a quiet, joyless home, as if there'd been a recent death. The text says for years.

[Alan Sisto]

What a picture that is. Laughter like somebody had just died. But you grow up in this.

[Sara Brown]

Not healthy at all for a child little enough of laughter. How sad for a small child to grow up in this way.

[Alan Sisto]

That's just tragic. It's so heartbreaking to imagine not even knowing happiness and joy and laughter and feeling like if something makes you laugh or smile, you're made to feel guilty for that.

[Sara Brown]

Awful. I mean, the first four years of her life, she will have known joy and laughter. Remember the description of the birthday party?

[Alan Sisto]

Yes. Loved that. She was happy, she was merry. They doted on her. Well, he doted on her and she would remember that and she would happy those natural emotional reactions of a little kid. I mean, sometimes little kids find ordinary things hilarious, which is always fun, which is always funny. It's really hilarious. And. But you can imagine if she does that here, what's horrendous reaction. It's not going to be to embrace that.

[Sara Brown]

No.

[Alan Sisto]

It's going to be to shut that down.

[Sara Brown]

Shut it down. Yeah.

[Alan Sisto]

You are not okay to feel joy. You are. You are not permitted need to be joyful. That's deeply tragic.

[Sara Brown]

This is a life that is flatlining.

[Alan Sisto]

It is. It is. We do get an interesting sidebar. Moving on from that about the music. I thought this is interesting. Not only was it a joyless house, it was a musicless house. Because the tradition in Numenor at the time was for the men to be the instrumentalists, presumably women to be vocalists, because she does hear some singing. But it's the women. And it's only of course, outside, away from horrendous here hearing.

[Sara Brown]

Because outside is fine. That's where Ankala May wants to be.

[Alan Sisto]

Oh, yeah.

[Sara Brown]

She's seven years old now. She wants to explore. She wants to run around. She wants a little bit of freedom in that way.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah. She wants a bicycle.

[Sara Brown]

Yes. And sometimes she'd even go with one of the shepherdesses note. Shepherdesses, yes.

[Alan Sisto]

Not shepherds, huh? No. Way she's going with the shepherds.

[Sara Brown]

No. And she would work and she would eat outdoors.

[Alan Sisto]

I love that. I just. What? What a simple. That's like the highlight of her life. But it is sad that that's the only moment she gets. That's a highlight. But whatever. Simple joy. Simple joy. You know. Now it does seem like that last little bit of the paragraph is just setting the stage for the reading we'll get to when we start next week's episode. But it is a reminder that this is still a young girl. And Calumet is seven. She's growing up. She wants to do normal kids stuff. And Arenda's parenting skills, they're not just coming into question. They are already being exposed for the terrible, terrible and abusive techniques and methods that they really are.

[Sara Brown]

Oh, I'm judging. I'm judging really hard.

[Alan Sisto]

100%. How quickly the tables have turned. We have gone from five episodes of Eldarion is an idiot. And he is. He hasn't changed.

[Sara Brown]

Nope.

[Alan Sisto]

To now it's Orendus turn to be under the magnifying glass. And she is not going to do well.

[Sara Brown]

I mean, you and I are both parents and we both know that there's no such thing as the perfect parent. We try our best.

[Alan Sisto]

I'm not. Yeah, not even remotely close.

[Sara Brown]

Yeah, we try our best. And some days our best is better than on other days. Right.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah, that's fair.

[Sara Brown]

But this is a woman who's not even trying her best here. This is just a woman who is controlling her life. And that means also controlling her child. And that's it.

[Alan Sisto]

That's the thing. And it's not even like this is negligent. Like, this is just a woman who doesn't know better or who's making, you know, innocent mistakes from, you know, not knowing. This is a woman who is intentionally causing harm to her child. Like you said, child abuse.

[Sara Brown]

Yes.

[Alan Sisto]

That's what this is. Boils down.

[Sara Brown]

Yes. This is a child who's growing up in a loveless house. And this is just. The emotional damage that's being inflicted here is scarily awful.

[Alan Sisto]

It is. It really is. And it's going to echo through the centuries because of her importance, as we'll see later. But now, Barlaman was a lot more than seven years old, actually quite a bit more. And as often as he could get leave, he would go out of the prancing pony and onto the Wide Downs where he could run free, tending the mailbag and eating under the sky. Eating a lot, actually, because it is Barloman Sara, what does Barlaman have for us tonight?

[Sara Brown]

So we have a question here from Christine in Connecticut. And she asks, in what ways does the relationship between Aldarion and his daughter Ancaliman may mirror or differ from his relationship with his own father? That's an interesting question because we've talked about how the relationship between Arendis and Ankalume kind of mirrors the relationship between her mother and herself.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah, between Nuneth and Arendus.

[Sara Brown]

But what about bringing Aeldarion into this and Minel Dragon?

[Alan Sisto]

The Aeldari and Meneldur relationship is interesting because Meneldur, for all his lack of action, and we've criticized him for that. Like, you could have done more to shut him down. In every conversation that he has with him, at least in every conversation that's documented in this story, he works very hard at trying to persuade, at trying to explain, and doing so rationally, calmly. I get the idea of a very wise king, very wise father, who's trying his absolute best to guide and lead and point his son in the right direction and to live that way himself. And though, again, we'll fault him for maybe not taking action on that, it's clear that he's also kind of stuck, politically speaking, know. So if we can excuse the lack of action, and I'm not saying that we can, but if we can, we just look at his words. Very different from Nuneth's words.

[Sara Brown]

Yes, indeed. Yes. I feel like Aldarion had a different experience with being parented. His mother seems to have been a little overindulgent, which is definitely not Nuneth.

[Alan Sisto]

And you know what? I'd forgotten about this, but we'll see this in a couple episodes. She's overindulgent with Encalamers too.

[Sara Brown]

Yes.

[Alan Sisto]

She ends up doting on her because now she can't do it on her son.

[Sara Brown]

Yeah, right. Which none of that is healthy.

[Alan Sisto]

No, it's not at all.

[Sara Brown]

And yeah, Aldarion's mother is overindulgent. Aldarion's father doesn't put his foot down when he should have put his foot down. So perhaps we could say weaker parenting. But again, I do think that Manilda did the best, because you can only ever do the best that you can in the moment with the information that you have.

[Alan Sisto]

Exactly, exactly. I also think he just couldn't imagine that his son wouldn't get this, like, exactly. How could it even cross his mind that his son is going to completely ignore duty? Like, what do you mean, son? I don't understand. You have no sense of duty at all. Oh, apparently you don't. So now I got to be even more forceful. I'm going to take away your boats. I'm going to take away your. You know, but.

[Sara Brown]

And that just creates the schism between Aldarion and his father that seems to heal. But it does not take much to break that wide open again.

[Alan Sisto]

That was so sad. How quickly that conversation turned from. These two were reunited, they were back and having this, you know, loving relationship. And then within just the. The minute that Maneldor begins to press him, Eldarion's done. Yeah.

[Sara Brown]

Right. So if we look back at what the question's asking about the relationship between Eldarion and his daughter Ankalame, I don't think it mirrors his relationship with his father. I think it differs because the problem is that Aldarion lacks empathy because he's all about Aldarion. What do I want? What is my deep need? I need to fulfill my life.

[Alan Sisto]

You can sacrifice these two years to my deep need need. Yeah.

[Sara Brown]

And your child can do without you for these years as well. Especially when we all know, and everybody knows, including really Aldarion, that he's not coming back in two years.

[Alan Sisto]

No.

[Sara Brown]

So he's abandoning his child. He's abandoning his wife. This is nothing like the parenting he has received. Yeah, I think he's just. He's been. I don't know, possibly he's been made to feel like he is important enough that he should put himself first. But that's not deliberately done by Tarmen Elder.

[Alan Sisto]

No. And I don't even think Almarion's doting could really be said to have caused that. I mean, this is just a guy who's got so much pride and so much.

[Sara Brown]

This is who he is.

[Alan Sisto]

That's just who he is. Yeah, but you're right. I do think it does not mirror his relationship with Meneldor or even his relationship relationship with. With Al Maryan. This is. He's parenting to the minimum because he wants to do.

[Sara Brown]

Very bare minimum.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah. Because he wants what he wants for himself. Anybody who gets in his way is in his way. Whether it's his wife who's 104 or whether it's his 6 year old daughter. You're in my way. Get off me. I gotta go.

[Sara Brown]

That kind of guile that he does show because he avoids confrontations and he lies and he twists and he gaslights. That's more Nooneth.

[Alan Sisto]

Ooh. That really is because you're right. That is exactly Nuneth. Which is why she wants her daughter to have Guile. Yeah. Now his relationship with her is interesting because you know, we'll spend a lot of time on Orendus relationship with Ancalame. We don't get to spend as much time with Eldarions. But it's clear that's because he doesn't. Right. It's because he's not there. You can't study what is isn't. And it's, it's, it's really, really sad because his absence his creates a vacuum that, that horrendous fills with garbage that she fills with just abuse and brainwashing. It's terrible. Well, on that happy note, thank you for joining us for another episode of the Prancing Pony podcast, Unremitting Misery.

[Sara Brown]

I know.

[Alan Sisto]

Well, please come back next week when Aldarian finally returns and things are not as he would hope.

[Sara Brown]

Oh dear, how sad. Never mind. Moving on. But frankly, no worse than you might expect.

[Alan Sisto]

That's true, Alan.

[Sara Brown]

And I want to thank the members of team PPP Editor Jordan Rannells, Barleyman Becca Davis, Social media manager Casey Hilsey, event and Patreon community coordinator Katie McKenna, graphic artist Megan Collins, video editing editor Yonatan Lacens, who's helping us get episodes up on YouTube and website Guru Phil Dean.

[Alan Sisto]

And please take a minute to check out the prancingponypodcast.com that's where you'll find show notes, outtakes and Prancing Pony ponderings. Now, we are changing vendors for our merch at the moment, but our online storefront should be back soon. You can get all sorts of cool PPP merch there, including all of the amazing chapter art that Megan's been doing for us for three plus seasons.

[Sara Brown]

Now, we're all about the books here at the Prancing Pony podcast, so be sure to also visit our library page. We try to make sure that any book we've mentioned on the show is linked there for you to purchase. And we do get a small amount of compensation when you make that purchase. So thank you for that.

[Alan Sisto]

Indeed. And we also want to thank our patrons at the Caerdance contribution tier. I'll start with Demay in Alaska, Chad in Texas, Lance in New Jersey, Joseph in Michigan, Kathy from North Carolina, Brian in the uk, Jerry from Washington, Irwin from the Netherlands, Ben in Minnesota, Anthony in Texas, Zaksu in Illinois, Joshua in Massachusetts, Lucy in Texas, Erica in Texas, Vivian in California, and James in Massachusetts.

[Sara Brown]

And there's also Ann in Kentucky, Sean in New Jersey, Mason in California, Maureen from Massachusetts, Olivia in London, Robert in Arizona, Nick in Wisconsin, Lewis in South Carolina, Thomas in Germany, Craig in California, Kevin in Massachusetts, Bruce in California, Joe in Maryland, Scott in California, Jeffrey in Michigan, and Paul in Colorado. Thank you all so very much for your support indeed.

[Alan Sisto]

Thank you.

[Sara Brown]

Make sure you don't miss any episodes of the Prancing Pony Podcast. Subscribe now through Spotify, Apple Podcasts, Amazon Music, or your favorite podcast app.

[Alan Sisto]

And one last thing. As always, don't forget to send your thoughts, comments, and most of all, your homeschool curriculum for teaching Sindarin to second graders to Barlamon at the prancingponypodcast.com Barleyman.

[Sara Brown]

Does have a lot of mail to sort through, though, so we'll try to get to you just as soon as we're able.

[Alan Sisto]

As always, though, this has been far too short a time to spend among such excellent and admirable listeners.

[Sara Brown]

But until next time, however, farewell, friends. It.