390 – Hello, Goodbye

Summary

The Prancing Pony Podcast

Episode 390 – Hello, Goodbye (Released: Nov 16, 2025)

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Main Theme & Purpose

This episode continues the Prancing Pony Podcast’s in-depth read-through of the story "Aldarion and Erendis" from Tolkien’s Unfinished Tales, focusing on the devastating effects of neglect, pride, and generational trauma within Middle-earth's only full-length marital tragedy. Regular host Alan Sisto and co-host Sara Brown (“the shield maiden of Rohan”) dive into some of the story’s most emotionally charged passages, with sharp literary insights and their signature blend of humor and candor. The episode features a special segment with soundscape creator Jordan Reynnells, bringing immersive “movies for your ears”-style adaptations of Tolkien’s legendarium to life.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Special Guest: Jordan Reynnells & Middle-earth Soundscapes

• [06:15–20:49]
  • Jordan describes his process of building detailed soundscapes (“a movie in your ears”) for Tolkien’s works, using original scores, sound effects, and 3D audio. He has completed The Lord of the Rings, The Hobbit, The Silmarillion, and is expanding into other fantasy series.
  • He explains that each book required new creative and technical approaches: LotR was about inventing the process; The Hobbit emphasized up-close, textured sound; The Silmarillion called for grand, distant atmospherics and more score-driven immersion.
  • Quotes:

    “Every chapter, it was a journey of ‘wouldn’t it be cool if I did this?’ Wouldn’t it be interesting to see what these environments sound like and as much detail as I can get?” – Jordan ([09:35])

    “[The soundscape is] almost like an audio version of the story that you can go through... a full movie in your ears experience.” – Jordan ([06:43], [08:36])

  • Alan and Sara do live readings from The Silmarillion with Jordan’s immersive sound backing ([14:51–17:59]).
  • Jordan mentions upcoming projects (Wheel of Time, Foundation, Dune), collaborations, and offers a discount for listeners on his website.

2. Aldarion and Erendis: Isolation & Estrangement

Ancalime’s Isolation

• [21:13–24:23]

  • Sara and Alan discuss Ancalime’s seclusion: at age seven she has never met a boy and likely no children at all, reflecting Erendis’s effort to keep her daughter isolated from male influence.

  • Notable moment:

    “She’s seven... having never seen a boy until today.” – Alan ([23:35])

    “What noisy thing was that?... It does certainly imply she’s literally never encountered a boy.” – Alan ([27:34])

  • Sara highlights the risk of generational trauma in such solitude and how Ancalime is learning avoidance, emotional censorship, and division at an early age.

Gender Roles & Upbringing

• [30:40–31:14]
  • Zamin, the country woman, provides a telling definition of a boy as “a breaker and eater, mostly,” with Alan and Sara reflecting on gendered upbringing and expectations in Numenor.

The Absent Father

• [31:56–41:10]

  • The co-hosts dissect the impact of Aldarion's lengthy absences on his daughter’s psyche, and Erendis's damage—her emotional detachment, bitterness, and conditional love.

  • Quotes:

    “Hurt people hurt people... that's what we're seeing here, is generational trauma.” – Alan ([44:28])

    “A masterclass of manipulation... You have a mother and she will not run away so long as you love her.” – Sara ([42:31])

  • Discussion of Arendis’s difficult position, her reasons (rightly or wrongly) for never discussing Aldarion with her child, and the ominous emotional legacy passed to Ancalime.

3. Aldarion’s Return: Coldness & Missed Redemption

The Homecoming

• [52:04–55:02]
  • Aldarion finally returns after three (really five) years, to a shut house, a cold welcome, and justified resentment from Erendis and even his father, King Meneldur.
  • The king confronts Aldarion:

    “Let a king first rule well his own house ere he correct others. It is true of all men. ...You have also a life of your own. Half of yourself you have ever neglected... Go home.” – Meneldur ([73:13])

Emotional Stalemate

• [81:24–84:20]
  • Alan and Sara analyze the emotionally frozen interactions as Aldarion visits Erendis. Each keeps walls up, both too proud and wounded to reach out sincerely.
  • Quotes:

    “The sensitive man here would have got off the horse and said, I am so sorry. But he’s never going to do that, is he?” – Sara ([87:46])

  • Erendis offers only cold civility: “If you are cold, call for fire.” Aldarion responds with distance and third-person references to himself; reconciliation is impossible.

4. The Daughter as Battleground

• [114:52–117:09]
  • Finally, Aldarion asks to see Ancalime, awakening her to a formal, public encounter. The child is cold and unresponsive, aping her mother’s bearing. Aldarion, rather than bridging the gulf, speaks as though to a stranger—emphasizing lineage, inheritance, and implicitly, property.
  • Quotes:

    "You knew me once, Lady Ancalime, but no matter. Today I am but a messenger from Armenelos to remind you that you are the daughter of the king's heir..." ([116:00])

  • Both parents use the child as a pawn; neither claims her as “our daughter,” deepening the generational wound.

5. Reflections on Character Damage and Tolkien’s Storytelling

• The hosts repeatedly reflect on how the story’s tragedy lies not just in Aldarion and Erendis’s failings, but in the inescapable harm done to Ancalime—Tolkien’s “generational trauma” theme.
• Both hosts praise Tolkien’s mastery:

  “These characters are fantastically awful... Tolkien can write a story!” – Alan ([127:41])

• Both express personal emotion, relating childhood experiences or parental perspectives.

6. Listener Question: Is Aldarion & Erendis Based on Tolkien’s Marriage?

• [137:01–141:59]
  • Listener Jerry asks if this story parallels Tolkien’s own marriage (Edith feeling isolated from his academic life).
  • Hosts reject a strict parallel but acknowledge elements of “leaf mold”—Tolkien’s life seeping unconsciously into his work. They note Oxford’s shifting social climate and the possible inspiration from observing other “divided” marriages.

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• Alan, on generational trauma:

  “Hurt people hurt people... that’s what we’re seeing here.” – [44:28]

• Sara, on Arendis:

  “It’s a shame that a 7-year-old has to be that way, that cautious, that careful.” – [42:14]

• Jordan Reynnells, on soundscape making:

  “Every chapter, it was a journey of ‘wouldn’t it be cool if I did this?’ ... What are the sound effects that those characters would hear?” – [09:35]

• Meneldur to Aldarion:

  “Let a king first rule well his own house ere he correct others. It is true of all men.” – [73:13]

• Sara, on the parents’ emotional failings:

  “Here you have two adults playing tennis, and Ancalime is the ball. There’s just nothing worse a parent can do.” – [128:07]

• Alan, on Tolkien’s writing:

  “Tolkien can write a story! ... These characters are fantastically awful.” – [127:41]

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Timestamps for Key Segments

| Segment | Timestamp | |-----------------------------------|---------------| | Soundscape Interview Begins | 06:15 | | Book Readings with Soundscapes | 14:51–17:59 | | Aldarion Returns to Numenor | 52:04–55:02 | | Homecoming & Cold Reception | 81:24–84:20 | | Ancalime Sees Her Father (Heartbreak) | 114:52–117:09 | | Listener Mail: Autobiographical Parallels | 137:01–141:59 |

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Tone & Language Highlights

• Casual, witty, direct ("If I could reach through the page and slap this man silly…” – Sara, [55:15])
• Mix of literary acuity and pub banter, with self-effacing humor and pointed cultural references (e.g., “He shouldn’t have made like Enya and sailed away…” – Sara, [134:39])
• The hosts are frank about the ugliness of the story—neither defending nor unduly villainizing, but always eager to dig beneath the surface
• Here and there, Alan reflects on his own upbringing/divorce as the “Ancalime” in a similar real-life triangle

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Conclusion

Episode 390 brilliantly continues the methodical and empathetic unpacking of "Aldarion and Erendis"—arguably Tolkien’s rawest, most human story—balancing textual analysis, lively performance, and emotional response. The PPP team makes clear how Tolkien masterfully weaves personal, cultural, and universal patterns of hurt, pride, love, and loss into an epic that is far more than Middle-earth legendarium—it is literary tragedy, rendered in all its heart-wrenching detail.

Listeners—seasoned Tolkien fans and newcomers alike—come away with a deeper understanding of the text, its real-world echoes, and its ongoing relevance.

Transcript

[A]

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[B]

Just try calling me an old country woman. I'll be out of here.

[A]

Why do you think I didn't include that?

[B]

Because you're not stupid.

[A]

Correct.

[B]

Folks, pull up a bench in the common room and join us. I'm Sara Brown, the shield maiden of Rohan, and I'm here with the man of the west who is ever eating to purpose or no purpose, Alan Sisto.

[A]

Yeah, I'm not growing vertically anymore, that's for sure. Look, if I had a nickel for every time somebody asked me what noisy thing was that when I left a room, I might have a dime. Folks, join us as the parenting just gets worse and worse as we continue in our seventh of ten episodes on Aldarian and Arendus from Unfinished Tales.

[B]

You wouldn't think it could get any worse, would you?

[A]

Oh, you'd think. Yeah.

[B]

Yeah, see, you think you've reached the bottom of the barrel and there's more gunk to go through.

[A]

It's like a bad reality TV show and you think it's so bad it must be scripted. But no. No, it's not.

[B]

Nobody wrote that thing. Okay, folks, no matter whether you come to Middle Earth through the books, the films, the TV show, or something else, each of you is welcome here in our common room. The Prancing Pony Podcast continues in our 10th season of Reading and talking our way through Middle Earth with conversations, digressions, and even a few speculations, more than.

[A]

A few in this chapter. Not to mention, of course, the requisite bad puns and bad jokes here and there. But our purpose here is to dive deep into the lore to discuss the story, our favorite characters and themes, Tolkien's inspirations, and a whole lot more.

[B]

And while we take the work seriously, the same really can't be said about ourselves. We're just a couple of friends chatting at the pub, and we're glad you've joined us.

[A]

And I'm sure you'll be glad you joined as well. But before we get to tonight's chapter discussion, we have a very special guest joining us today.

[B]

We do.

[A]

Now. For more than five years, Jordan Reynnells has helped shape the sound of the PPP and a lot more.

[B]

Oh yeah, his incredible work on a long expected soundscape has captured the ears of the Tolkien fandom. Chapter specific original music, chapter specific sound effects and ambient environments so that as you read through the Lord of the Rings or listen to the audiobook, you can fully immerse yourself in Middle Earth.

[A]

Now, you've heard his work on the show a few times, too. There was a Tolkien Reading Day episode where he crafted a custom soundscape for me and Sean as he read the Homecoming of Beornath, Beorhelm's son. And I believe one of our episodes on the Ride of the Rohirrim also featured his work.

[B]

He also appeared as a guest on your daily show, today's Tolkien Times. Right, folks, without further delay, please welcome to the common room, the PPP's own Jordan Runnels.

[C]

Thanks so much for having me.

[A]

Oh, Jordan, it's absolute pleasure. Now, I suppose the first thing we really need to ask you, even though Sara and I know what this is, not all of our folks necessarily understand what a soundscape is, what it's made up of, I guess. And following up on that after you explain that, fit it into the greater world of the other ways we experience the books. Comparing it to maybe a bare audiobook, the films, or what I used to do, which is just listening to the film score while reading the book.

[C]

For sure, the soundscape is a bit different than all of these other experiences because I've taken the audiobook as a guide, the Andy Serkis one, and the Rob Inglis ones. And I've created original score, original sound effects and ambient environments that I went out and recorded in the forests and things and timed that perfectly with the audiobook so that every moment has a specific cue to it. Every moment has, you know, you'll hear Gandalf coming up the hill, you'll hear the fireworks, you'll hear music for each one of these scenes. And the kind of key point about all of this is that it's all as specific as I could make it. So all of the sounds are there. And it's really designed to be, you know, experienced in different ways. And the main way is that you can listen to it and it's almost like an audio version of the story that you can go through. So you can recognize all of these cues as you go through and you know, know where you're at in the story and hear Old Man Willow and, and Tom and all this stuff on, on the Journey. But you can also pair it up with the official, if you own that and you can kind of have this full movie in your ears experience. And the closest thing to it is probably, you know, people might be familiar with radio dramas and the BBC adaptation, but what is special about this, I think, is that it's not taking any of the story away. It's not abridged in any way. It's the whole experience from start to finish. So every single moment is in there. Has, you know, music design for it and sound effects designed for it. So the Lord of the Rings specifically is the full 63 hours.

[A]

Wow, 63 hours of music and ambience and sound effects.

[B]

Oh, it really enhances.

[A]

I like the way you put that a movie in your ears. That was a phrase I'd not heard before. But that's a, that's a very accurate way, just based on my experience with your soundscapes to describe that.

[C]

Yeah, and I think that that's the key is that you were talking about how it compares to other experiences. And I've always wanted that movie level sound design and score for the full story. You know, we all love the extended editions. And I remember, you know, when I was younger thinking, wouldn't it be cool if we had the whole thing though? You know, like, where's the extended. Extended version. And so that's kind of what this is. And it's been quite a journey to put it together for sure.

[B]

I can imagine. I mean, what you've done is pretty amazing. But for those who are just learning about the soundscapes, what's the process been like in terms of development and creation? Like the investment of time and your resources and your expertise. It has to be immense, right?

[C]

Yeah. It started three years ago with successful Kickstarter, which was amazing. And then I had a few follow up Kickstarters to continue on and I'VE now finished Lord of the Rings, the Hobbit and the Silmarillion, as well as a couple other non Tolkien books that we can talk about later. But it was really a long journey of digging into the details and thinking, you know, what could I do? I think that that's the thing that I like to talk about the most, is for every chapter, it was a journey of, wouldn't it be cool if I did this? Wouldn't it be cool if I had a theme for Bill the Pony? You know what if I had a music theme for all of these characters? You know, Glorfindel has. And Imra Hill has a theme. All these kind of things where we might not have gotten it in the movies. And so wouldn't it be cool if we had that? And wouldn't it be interesting to see what these environments sound like and as much detail as I can get? So it was really going through every chapter and treating it as a movie, you know, as. As a scene from a movie where it's like, okay, these are the people in the scene. Does this scene have music? Does it not? What are the characters in the scene? What are the sound effects that those characters would hear? I've spoken in the past about a good example of. In Minas Tirith, we are in Pippin's perspective. And so while there are battle sounds happening, he's far away from it. You know, those battle sounds are being described, but he's far away from it at that moment. So trying to get those perspectives right, you know, and then playing around with the kind of creative license of it a little bit and seeing what works best and things like that. And just, yeah, going into the detail of how to build these scenes in 3D audio, we should mention that all of this is mixed in Dolby Atmos. So in your headphones, you'll hear the sounds move around you and you'll hear arrows fly by and things like that. A lot of really fun things and fun ways to approach the story that the movies can't do and the books can't do on its own. And I can kind of play around in ways that those can't. And I think that that's really exciting. And it was a really exciting journey. And the journey changed from Lord of the Rings through to the Hobbit and then to the Silmarillion, where with Lord of the Rings, it was a lot of, how do I even do this? You know, like, how do I. What's the workflow like and what's the design like? What Works sound wise and what doesn't. Trying to figure it all out and write all these themes for the characters and sound design and things. When I got to the Hobbit, it was time to kind of finesse it a little bit and say, you know, maybe I can pull back on some of the music in some scenes and let the sound design jump out more. So I got to play with the kind of up close nature of the Hobbit a little bit more.

[B]

Wonderful.

[C]

And then when we get to the Silmarillion, it does the opposite where we pull back a ton from the action. Yeah. And, you know, we get distant kind of sounds and the score takes over a whole ton more. And so that is probably the most exciting part of all of these soundscape journeys is how to approach it, because, you know, this is how it might work for the Silmarillion. And that's totally different from the Lord of the Rings and that's totally different from some of the other books that I've started to tackle as well. So the conceptualizing of it is super exciting.

[A]

So sort of with Lord of the Rings, you were kind of inventing the wheel as you were going along.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

And then with the Hobbit and the Silmarillion, you had a chance to expand and do a little bit more with that because you'd already built the structure and sort of understood how the, the process worked.

[C]

Yeah. Start to push things a little bit and see, you know, technology advances and. And I think that that's an important thing to mention about these projects as they're kind of living projects, so I can continue to improve them and, and design them as they go. And I feel like it's also worthwhile to mention, you know, in. In this kind of day and age, it was me that did all this work and went out and recorded it and built it. It wasn't. There was no AI involved in any of that.

[A]

Goodness, yes.

[C]

There's none of that. I was lucky enough to have some guest musicians join me for all three projects as well. Some PPP listeners that people will know. So that was cool. But yeah, it was this journey of developing the process into something that really, I think, works and works in different levels. That's the coolest part, I think, is that you can listen with the audiobooks and get an experience. You can listen just on its own and get an experience. And you can sit down with your book and listen and have that experience.

[A]

Yeah. Well, I think perhaps the best way for listeners to really understand what, what the soundscape is is maybe to hear it in action. Jordan, we talked about this off air, so to speak. Do you have something ready for Sara and I each to read? Then we can all hear in the episode just what a soundscape does for the listener.

[C]

Absolutely. We have two segments here from the Silmarillion, so brand new stuff that most people will have not heard yet. So. All right, let's have a listen to those.

[B]

Melian was a Maia of the race of the Valar. She dwelt in the gardens of Lorien, and among all his people there were none more beautiful than Melian, nor more wise, nor more skilled in songs of enchantment. It is told that the Valar would leave their works and the birds of Valinor their mirth, that the bells of Valmar were silent and the fountain ceased to flow. When at the mingling of the lights, Melian sang in Lorien. Nightingales went always with her, and she taught them their song. And she loved the deep shadows of the great trees. She was akin before the world was made, to Yavanna herself. And in that time, when the Quendi awoke beside the waters of Koivienen, she departed from Valinor and came to the Hither lands. And there she filled the silence of Middle Earth before the dawn and with her voice and the voices of her birds. Now, when their journey was near its end, as has been told, the people of the Teleri rested long in East Beleriand, beyond the river Gelion. And at that time many of the Noldor still lay to the westward in those forests that were afterwards named Neldoreth and region.

[A]

Then all the hosts of Angband swarmed against them and they bridged the stream with their dead and encircled the remnant of Hithlum as a gathering tide about a rock. There, as the sun westered on the sixth day and the shadow of Ered Wethryn grew dark, Huor fell, pierced with a venomed arrow in his eye. And all the valiant men of Hador were slain about him in a heap.

[B]

And.

[A]

And the orcs hewed their heads and piled them as a mound of gold in the sunset. Last of all, Hurin stood alone. Then he cast aside his shield and wielded an axe two handed. And it is sung that the axe smoked in the black blood of the Trollguard of Gothmog until it withered. And each time that he slew, Hurin cried, aure and Tuluva day shall come again. 70 times he uttered that cry. But they took him at last alive by the command of Morgoth for the Orcs grappled him with their hands, which clung to him still, though he hewed off their arms, and ever their numbers were renewed, until at last he fell buried beneath them. Then Gothmog bound him and dragged him to Angband with mockery. Thus ended Nirnaeth, Arnoediad. As the sun went down beyond the sea, night fell in Hithlum, and there came a great storm of wind out of the west.

[C]

There we go. We got a little bit of a taste.

[A]

Wow.

[B]

I wonder why you chose to do that particular section, Alan.

[A]

He actually handed it to me. I said, I will never turn down a chance to read Hurin, so fair enough.

[C]

Well, thanks for doing those readings.

[A]

Oh, our privilege. I really am excited for our listeners to hear this.

[B]

Absolutely. But what comes next for the soundscapes? Jordan, it appears you have a number of other books that you working on. You want to tell us what's on the horizon for you?

[C]

For sure. I have already started the Wheel of Time series, so I have two books of that very long series done, and the third one is almost done. And I have the first book of A Song of Ice and Fire, a Game of Thrones almost finished as well. I have. Some people have heard the Winnie the Pooh book that I did with Sean, which was really a lot of fun. And because that's public domain, his narration is in there.

[B]

And.

[C]

And people can.

[A]

Oh, that's great.

[C]

I've started work on foundation. Alan will be happy to hear.

[A]

I'm excited for that.

[C]

I've started some work on Dune, so there's a lot of different things, and they kind of switch focus depending on where I'm at. And kind of creatively, it's nice to be able to jump between them and get a different world for a little bit. But in the Tolkien world, I'll be continuing to work on the Great Tales as well.

[B]

Wonderful.

[C]

You know, take the stuff that I wrote for the Silmarillion and expand it out a little bit for those.

[A]

Okay. Yeah. So the same themes that you developed for Better than Luthien and for Turin and for Tuor, you're going to be able to explore those more in these expanded Great Tales editions.

[C]

Exactly.

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

And it'll be interesting to have different voices narrate those. You know, there'll be a whole different feel with the. The Wests reading the Fall of Gondolin and. And Christopher Lee reading Children of Heron.

[A]

Oh, yeah.

[B]

Oh, yes. True.

[C]

Okay.

[A]

Jordan, thank you for joining us. This was fantastic. And I'm really excited for you to see Just all the new things that you're going to be able to put out. Yes, I'm excited about foundation, but I'm thrilled to see like the great tales coming along and who knows, maybe down the road you'll even do, I don't know, Rover Random or.

[B]

That would be fun, you know, a.

[A]

Fun, a fun, short, you know, lighthearted thing from Tolkien. I don't know, just lots of opportunities and what a. A great creative endeavor. So thank you for sharing that with us, Jordan. Really appreciate it.

[C]

For sure. Thanks so much for having me on. And I did want to mention if anyone is interested in, you know, finding out more about the soundscapes or getting a copy and things like that, then you can head to my website, jordanrenels.com and I will mention as well, if we want to use the PPP 25 discount, then you can, you can use that to get started on a little adventure as the code.

[A]

PPP 25 is the code to save 25%. I like that.

[B]

Very cool. We all love a good discount.

[A]

We all do. I'll make sure that we also put this in the show notes as well. So looking forward to helping you out on that end and hoping things continue to go well so that you can keep producing these amazing soundscapes.

[C]

Thank you so much.

[A]

All right, let's go and get into today's reading. Sara, would you go ahead and pick up where we left off last week?

[B]

Absolutely. What noisy thing was that? Said Ancalime. A boy, said Zamin, if you know what that is. But how should you? They're breakers and eaters, mostly. That one is ever eating, but not to no purpose. A fine lad his father will find when he comes back. But if that is not soon, he'll scarce know him. I might say that of others. Has the boy then a father too? Asked an Kalim. To be sure, said Zamin Ulbar, one of the shepherds of the Great Lord away south. The sheep Lord, we call him a kinsman of the king. Then why is the boy's father not at home? Why Haringe? Said Zamin. Because he heard of those venturers and took up with them and went away with your father, the Lord Aldarion. But the Valar know whither or why. That evening Ancalime said suddenly to her mother, is my father also called the Lord Aldarion? He was, said Arendis. But why do you ask? Her voice was quiet and cool. But she wondered and was troubled, for no word concerning Aldarion had passed between them before. Ancalime did not Answer the question. When will he come back? She asked. Do not ask me, said Arendus. I do not know. Never. Perhaps. But do not trouble yourself, for you have a mother, and she will not run away while you love her. And Calimeh did not speak of her father again.

[A]

Oh, boy. Okay, we've got a lot to say about this passage. A whole lot.

[B]

Yeah. So much in there.

[A]

But we also skipped a bunch. So in the part that we skipped, we pick up in the summer of 880. This is about the time that Aldarian will have been out of the picture for three years. So on column is seven. But she spent half her life now with her father gone.

[B]

Yes, indeed. It's amazing she remembers she has one, frankly.

[A]

Especially because, you know, her mom doesn't talk about him.

[B]

No, definitely not. Now, last week we ended reading about how she would sometimes go out and tend sheep with a shepherdess. And that sets us up for this encounter with a boy who we're told is, quote, young, but older than herself. And he's here at the White House running some errand for one of the other farms. Right.

[A]

So she comes upon this boy, having never seen a boy until today.

[B]

Wow, she's seven.

[A]

Yeah, he's having a little snack. He doesn't treat her like she's the daughter of the king's heir. I know. Deference.

[B]

Yeah, but I wonder, do you think she even knows that she's the daughter of the king's heir at this point?

[A]

That's what I'm wondering. I mean, does she even know anything about her dad?

[B]

It's like you said, it's not like Arendis is going to have spoken about nobody on to.

[A]

And the text even says no word concerning Eldarion had passed between them before. Which is wild. I mean, how much of her early years does she recall? I mean, she was four when he left, so you'd think she'd remember something. But she also doesn't know her father's name, as we'll see later. It seems reasonable to conclude based on that, plus what we read in the text itself. Arendes has literally said nothing about this, dad.

[B]

Yeah, No, I think you're right. And if you think about what a child can remember at the age of seven, of what life was like when they were three or four, they'll have some memories.

[A]

They have some memories.

[B]

Yeah, not a whole heck of a lot. Especially if whatever caused the memories at the age of, say, two, three or four has never occurred again.

[A]

That's true. That's true. The repeated things are the things that stick. But being four years old and clinging to her father, and her father basically saying, get off me, I've got places to go.

[B]

You kind of hope she actually doesn't remember that trauma. I know.

[A]

For her sake, I don't want her remembering that trauma.

[B]

Yeah. But we also have to remember that when she was very little, Eldarion was often away from home anyway.

[A]

That is true.

[B]

She wasn't there all the time, though.

[A]

They clearly had developed some sort of like, summer travels thing, like we talked about, you know. Where are you taking me this summer, dad.

[B]

Right.

[A]

You know, which. Which at 4 suggests he certainly remembers going somewhere with him during her summer when she was three.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

If not before that.

[B]

Yes. Maybe she holds on to memories of things like that.

[A]

Yeah. So she's got to remember that there is this person. She will not have forgotten he exists. She might not know who he is, what the role is. She certainly is unlikely to know that she is the daughter of the king's heir.

[B]

Yeah, I think you're right there.

[A]

At least for now. She'll learn that later today.

[B]

Oh, boy. Yes, won't she? So back to this boy then. Because the boy is blunt. Yeah. He calls her out for staring and then immediately after complimenting her appearance, says that she's too skinny and offers her food. Now, he's seven, not 17, so.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

What are your thoughts on this behavior? It seems a little bit odd.

[A]

I mean, it seems a little bit, you know, cheeky. But he's seven, like you said. He's not. He's not a teenager. He's not being, you know, manipulative and calling her, you're pretty but too thin. Right. He's just being blunt because he's seven.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

He's speaking his mind. Because filters aren't a thing when you're seven.

[B]

Yeah. It would be ickier if it was a 17 year old.

[A]

Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean, it would be very questionable. But yeah. I think this is just an innocent kid who has no filters. And it's interesting because of course Ankalameh is going to have a lot of filters. You know, she knows that there are going to be things you're not allowed to talk about.

[B]

Indeed.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Yeah. But it's kind of funny. You're pretty, but you need a sandwich.

[A]

Yes. Seriously, have a cheeseburger, girl. Now, Zamin, who features later in the story as well, she's the old woman, arrives on scene to shoo the boy away. And she. She'd apparently given him a message to take to his mother, as we'll discover here in the conversation, his father is off sailing with Aldarien right now.

[B]

This boy who we now have named as Ebal, he complies, although with a bit of snark.

[A]

Well, he's seven.

[B]

Yeah, he is seven. Right. And we're told a bit more about Zamin tells it like it is hard to intimidate. Yeah, it sounds like somebody who's perfect for the household of Erendis.

[A]

In fact, you kind of wonder, given how hard she is to intimidate, whether Orendus will then try to intimidate her later when she finds out she mentioned Eldarion's name to her daughter.

[C]

Oops.

[A]

But that question that Enkalame asks, what noisy thing was, that's funny. It's hilarious. And it's also very true. It does certainly imply she's literally never encountered a boy. But that made me wonder if she's even encountered other children. Because you think about the isolation in which she's being raised, right? There are the women servants, you know, running the household. There are no men. There are no boys. But are there even other girls?

[B]

No, I don't think so. Because, let's face it, children of 6, 7 years old are noisy. It doesn't matter what gender they are. They're noisy. And if there was another girl in the house, and Callie May would be more likely to be out running around squealing and shouting and playing hide and seek.

[A]

Oh, yeah.

[B]

Yeah. So when she says what noisy thing is that? I think it's because she's just not encountered other children before.

[A]

Yeah, that's what I was thinking, too. I mean, because my daughter at 7 was actually louder than my son at 7.

[B]

Well, there you are, then.

[A]

So it's. You know, it really is interesting. I wonder what would have been like, though, if she'd been exposed to other girls her age. Not necessarily boys, but just girls.

[B]

Well, a girl who's of a similar age would probably be an influence on Ankalime. I mean, what if she spoke positively of boys?

[A]

Oh, yeah. Like if I had a brother or. Yeah, yeah.

[B]

Oh, boy. Yeah. I mean, Arendis can't have that. So I wouldn't be surprised if this is literally the first young person, let alone young male, that poor Ancalame has encountered.

[A]

How sad is that?

[B]

Yeah. Yeah.

[A]

Talk about not letting your kid be a kid.

[B]

Right. But think about the household that Arendus has created around her.

[A]

Mm.

[B]

It's just women.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

There are no men, so there's no way these women are there with family. Right.

[A]

So these are going to be single women.

[B]

They're going to be single women or.

[A]

Older, so that their kids are gone like empty nesters. You kind of imagine Zamin, you know, possibly maybe has a husband someplace that she goes home to every so often, but her kids are going to be adults, so.

[B]

Exactly. So I would imagine that this is a very solitary household in that sense.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

But we get the definition of a boy from some.

[A]

I love it. Yeah.

[B]

And of course this does seem to confirm that this is the first boy she would have seen. Because she says, how should you know? Yeah, of course she wouldn't.

[A]

No, she wouldn't. But the definition is funny. A breaker and eater mostly.

[B]

Not wrong.

[A]

Can't disagree. Yeah, not wrong. That also might be the definition of a good deal of men, for that matter.

[B]

Well, yes, there is also that. But frankly, you know, a healthy kid should be loud and running around and.

[A]

Eating a lot and probably breaking things.

[B]

And eating a lot, because this is healthy childhood. But I think that we're also looking at an attitude towards women, which may not necessarily just be in a rendous household, that the women, the girls are expected to be quieter, more socialized, to be gentle, all of that sort of thing. Because girls are not supposed to be breakers and eaters.

[A]

No, of course not.

[B]

Calumet is very skinny.

[A]

That's right. She's too skinny, according to Ebal. It's interesting. I think we'll see a little bit more of that, though. We're only going to see it through Orendus eyes as we read about her teaching to Ankalame in a couple of episodes.

[B]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Back to the boy himself. It sounds like Eval is growing up. Earlier we heard Zamin chide him to use your long legs. And here we read that he's always eating, but not to no purpose, because he'll be a fine lad when his dad comes back.

[A]

Right. He's a growing boy, you know, and he's going to be a tall kid. Well, of course he is. He's a Numenorean. He's probably going to be seven foot tall. But if his dad doesn't come back soon, Zameen believes that the dad won't even recognize Ebal. I mean, this is a good time for a reminder that the first 25 years of a Numenorean life was just like ours. That is, he grows at the same rate as a normal human child. So I can tell you, as the father of a 13 year old son, I barely recognize him and I see him every Day. I mean, they grow like a weed so much. And yeah, seven is a time where they're growing a lot too. For sure.

[B]

Definitely. Definitely. But that seems to lead her to the obvious conclusion. She might say that of others.

[A]

Yes, she.

[B]

Because of course, our Darion has been gone since our Kim was four and.

[A]

Now she's seven, which is the same amount of time that Ebal's dad would have been gone since he sailed with Eldarion.

[B]

It's just as likely that Eldarion could come back and not recognize his daughter. And of course his daughter not recognize him.

[A]

Yeah, which is exactly what we'll see happens.

[B]

Yeah. Yeah. Now Ancalame misses this subtle comment. I mean, she is only seven. And she asks about the boy's dad. And it turns out his name is Ulbar and he's a shepherd for the Great Lord away south. The sheep. Sheep Lord?

[A]

I've always aspired to gain the title the Sheep Lord.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

No, actually I never have. In the third reading for today, we're going to learn something interesting about this great Lord away south. He is none other than Halatan, whose son Halakar will actually one day be on Calumet's husband.

[B]

No spoilers.

[A]

Tolkien gives spoilers all the time.

[B]

Yes, he does.

[A]

I am done trying to prevent spoilers. Yeah.

[B]

And Kalame asks why the son's dad isn't around. And remember, it's the Numenorean norm for parents to be together until the youngest kid is at least seven. And Kalime is seven and this boy is slightly older. So it would be odd, but not entirely unheard of for dad to be gone so long as Ibal is the last child of Ulbar and his wife. But it does depend on how long Ulbar has been away, because it's Surely he shouldn't have gone away until the kid was at least seven. Also.

[A]

Well, maybe, you know, he is described as a little older. Maybe he's closer to 10.

[B]

Maybe.

[A]

Yeah. It's still though, he shouldn't be gone unless they know he's the last kid.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

So it's just.

[B]

How do you know that?

[A]

How do you know that? Well, I guess you decide you're like, we're done. That's when we get the vivid example of just how free tongued Zamin is as she names Aeldarian. And I have to think that that was probably on her employment contract to never speak that name. Right. I can't imagine that Horrendous thinks this is okay.

[C]

No.

[B]

What? Having that name bandied around in her House. She wouldn't want to hear that name.

[A]

No way. But first we get her calling on Calime Hereinke, which is Quenya for little lady. Heri is the element for lady. It's actually related to Heru for lord or master. And then the inque is just a diminutive suffix. Cute name though. Heading.

[B]

That's lovely. But what's important here isn't the Quenya.

[A]

How dare you.

[B]

Sorry, Alan. It is in fact what Zamin tells Ankalame. Ulbar heard about the Venturers and went off with your father, the Lord Aldarion. Oops.

[A]

Slip of the tongue. Didn't mean to say that. Yeah.

[B]

Who was it? Yeah, I know, because she's also expressing her disapproval of such a thing. She says the Valar know whether or why. Yeah, I don't think she's that keen.

[A]

No, she's not the whole. The Venturers guild certainly holds no esteem in her eyes.

[B]

No, definitely not.

[A]

So, like, why would Ulbar go off? Why would Aldarion go off?

[B]

Yeah, she doesn't seem to have a lot of patience for that.

[A]

No, she does not. Well, she knows what the Numenorean norms are. You don't do this. And you especially don't do this if you're the king's heir, man. But this of course leads to that incredibly awkward moment at home when has to answer her seven year old daughter's question about her dad's identity. Now I've got to ask you, what do you make of horrendous answer in this first part? She doesn't deny that he's known as the Lord Eldarion. She says he was not. He is. Now, I'm not trying to read motive into what Arrendus is doing here, but do you believe she's trying to convey or at least imply that and Calumet's father is actually dead.

[B]

Here, there's two ways I read this. Right. One, possibly he's just dead to her.

[A]

No. Well, yeah, that.

[B]

That would be the simplest response to that. The slightly more complicated and more human response perhaps is you have to remember how many of these voyages Hirendus in her life since she's known Aeldarion has endured a lot.

[A]

A lot.

[B]

So many times he said, oh, I'll be back in a year. I'll be back in two years, three years, whatever. And he's many, many years past the time he's supposed to be back. And it's not surprising, I think, that it might be easier to just. He's dead. He should have been back he isn't back, he's dead.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And try and block off your heart, your emotions that way by almost pre. Dealing with it, if you like. Assuming he's just never coming back, getting.

[A]

Out in front, I mean, assuming the worst.

[B]

Yes, exactly.

[A]

Because that's the easiest thing to do.

[B]

And that's one of the things I find it hard to blame Arendis for. She has been so thoroughly messed about with when it comes to this. And you know, when the man you love, the person you love, whatever, disappears for years on end. And I know that she has a more expanded lifespan than the average human, but it's still nowhere near as much as Aldarions as we know. But when somebody disappears for that many years and there's no sign and there's no communication, there's a good word for these two. Well, yeah, there's just no reason for her to believe that he absolutely is alive. Because if he loved her, would he not return? If he loved her, would he not have just not gone in the field?

[A]

Well, yeah, being married and having a child, he should just not have gone. But, yeah, I guess at this point he's Schrodinger's Eldarion. I mean, until he. Until he comes back, you don't know.

[B]

Right. But isn't that really hard for someone to deal with when you, you know, this is a person that you love with whom you've had a child? This is really hard to deal with. And I just wonder. Like I said, the easy answer is he's dead to her. But the more complicated, more human answer is that she's got out in front of that and dealt with it in this very complicated, very human way in which she just assumes he's never coming back.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Just easier.

[A]

Maybe, maybe, maybe.

[B]

But anyway, I'd also point out that the was doesn't even trigger a question. So. Yeah, it's almost as if she's only ever spoken about him in the past tense. Except we'll read in a second that they had never talked about him before.

[A]

Which is mind blowing. Yeah, yeah, that's just so.

[B]

I think Aldarion is past tense in Arendus head, you know, which means that.

[A]

To Ancalame, he's also past tense, because how could she know otherwise?

[B]

Right, Right. Absolutely. And later, when we see Ancalame asking Aldarion who he is, we'll wonder then, is she being sarcastic or is she being genuine?

[A]

That's a very good point. Keep that in mind when we get there. Let's. Let's talk more about that.

[B]

Definitely.

[A]

I Also thought it was very interesting she didn't just say, yes, he was called that. She asks her own daughter a question. Why do you ask? Now? I read this as who told you this? Or how did you find out that name?

[B]

Oh, yeah, yeah.

[A]

She wants heads to roll at this point.

[B]

Well, you can imagine. I mean, it says in the text that she answered in a very cool voice.

[A]

Yeah, she's already pretty cool to begin with.

[B]

Yeah. But this is really not encouraging. Ankalume to. Oh, well, I had this lovely chat with.

[A]

Yeah, yeah. Samin is such a nice lady. And she was so kind to tell me my father's name.

[B]

Yes. That I did not know before. Yeah. This would put some pressure on Ancalame. She wouldn't want to get Zamin in trouble.

[A]

No. In fact, she's probably closer to Zamin than she is to her own mom, given how distant her mom appears to be.

[B]

Yeah, indeed. And that's when we get the narrative telling us that they'd never talked about him.

[A]

That's mind blowing.

[B]

I mean, somehow over the course of three years, the mere idea of having a father and who he might be simply never came up to Ancalame. Or just that she knew better than to ever ask her mum anything about him.

[A]

Yeah, I mean, that's the thing we talked about the memories. If he had left when she was two, I might say. Yeah, it's possible that she has no memories that she can identify. Nothing more than vague recollections at most. But four, and she's only seven, she's got to remember that there was this male involved.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

She probably remembers some fights or some, you know, cold moments between the two of them.

[B]

Because winter did return.

[A]

Yeah. Yeah. So I don't know, it's.

[B]

Well, notice that she says, asks, is my father also called the lord Aldarion? So there's no sense in her head that.

[A]

Not yet. That he's past tense at the moment.

[B]

That he's past tense.

[A]

And then it's only the he was.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

That generates that.

[B]

Yeah. It's interesting, isn't it? Perhaps. Yeah, perhaps. I think there's a sense in which we could read Ankalime as somehow knowing she has a father but just never talking about it.

[A]

I think it's pretty clear that she's not allowed to talk about anything. Her mother doesn't invite her to talk about firsts because here's the thing we talked about. Oh, well, now maybe to her her father is past tense, but he's not yet. Because her very first. She doesn't answer the question because she doesn't want to get Zamin in trouble. But she moves on to when will he come back? Not, oh, so he's never coming back. Right. So when will he come back implies I believe, that this man is still alive.

[B]

Yep.

[A]

So it's. It's really interesting. I love this though, because even at 7, she's demonstrating that she is very much the child of both of these two. She doesn't answer her mom's question and instead asks another one, which prompts a. I think an even more troubling answer for Mirandus.

[B]

Yeah, it's a shame that a 7 year old has to be that way, that cautious, that careful.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

But yeah, I mean, she doesn't know, of course. Aldarion's track record of voyages is all over the place, from two years to 14 years. But more than that, she doesn't even want to be asked that question.

[A]

No.

[B]

And then in a masterclass of manipulation, she essentially tells anime, don't worry, you don't need him because you have me and I'm not going anywhere.

[A]

Well, accept.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

This awful, terrible, conditional thing. Right. I'm not gonna go anywhere while you love her.

[B]

Oh, I hate that so much.

[A]

Oh, that just. It's evil.

[B]

It's horrendous. What a horrible, horrible thing to do to your child.

[A]

You have a mother and she will not run away so long as you love her. Right. You. You fail to love me adequately and I will also abandon you. What a terrible thing to tell a seven year old girl.

[B]

I mean, trying. Trying very hard to see some of this from Aurendus point of view. Arendus is damaged.

[A]

Oh, she's deeply damaged.

[B]

She's a very damaged individual. I mean, the mothering that she received, I think we can agree, was not awesome.

[A]

No, it was not. I think we've definitely had some words to say about Nuneth and her awful advice.

[B]

Oh yes, and you can only imagine childhood experience was for Orendis. As a result, the father seems a little more pleasant but distant and indifferent at best.

[A]

Probably just leaving things to newness, you.

[B]

Know, because it's easy.

[A]

Taking the easy route.

[B]

Yep, yep. So she is a very damaged individual. That. The damage is then propounded by Eldarion's treatment of her. Because love has always been conditional in horrendous life, doesn't it?

[A]

Yeah, you're right, it has.

[B]

My mother might love me if I keep doing what she wants me to do.

[A]

Right. If I follow her counsel, if I allow her.

[B]

It's not said.

[A]

But no, I feel that it sure seems that way.

[B]

I mean, just this does not excuse her behavior towards Ankalame. And I am not trying to. But she is such a damaged person.

[A]

Yeah, she is. And, well, you know, it may be trite, but it's true. Hurt people. Hurt people.

[B]

Hurt people. Yes.

[A]

And, you know, that's what we're seeing here is generational trauma, you know, and it's sad because we're going to see it generationally within Calumet's kids later, which.

[B]

I think actually just backs up our argument that this has a lot to do with generational trauma.

[A]

Us. It's heartbreaking. And speaking of heartbreaking, the final line of this reading, and Calumet did not speak of her father again, is so full of regret and. And lost opportunity. She never spoke about him again. That doesn't mean she never thought about him or wondered about what he was doing or worried or feared or hated or.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Had some sort of emotional connection to this man.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

But.

[B]

Yeah, but she knew never, ever, ever, ever talk about him with her mother.

[A]

Yeah. And who else could she talk about him with? There's nobody.

[B]

No. And she wouldn't want to get Zamin in trouble by talking to her again, would she?

[A]

No. No. And I would imagine that a lot of the people, a lot of the women that are in this household don't really have any stories to tell of him anyway.

[B]

No.

[A]

I mean, they're going to have come into her employment after all of this. So they will only know about Eldarion through Arendus own words or through his reputation publicly, which, let's face it, isn't great.

[B]

It's not great. No, it isn't. I mean, he might be the heir to the throne, but he is not well loved at this point.

[A]

But she's not even going to get to hear about Eldarion from Meneldor, for instance, or from any of his friends or people in the Guild or. I mean, she's not going to be able to talk to anybody about him because her mom's the only one she could talk with. And she's made it clear, Erendis has, that that is never, ever an option.

[B]

Yeah, it's very, very sad.

[A]

Deeply.

[B]

So what we're going to notice, I think, as we get further into this story, is that this has really been passed down and will pass on again. The TR that is the story of Ancalame, I think, overshadows even the story of Aldarion and Arendis. These are two people who make some terrible choices. But there is no choice for Ancalame.

[A]

No, you're right, that's a very good point. I mean, in a way, you know, the story is Aldarian and Arendus the Mariner's wife. Right. That's the subtitle of the story. But in a way it could also be called, you know, the devastation of Ankalame, you know.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

Because that's really the most tragic victim of this.

[B]

It is, yeah. We've agreed that Arendus is a very, very damaged woman. Well, you ain't seen nothing yet.

[A]

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[A]

We'Ll get back to Numenor in time for Eldarian's arrival. Don't worry, there's plenty of time. But before we do, I want to take a minute to thank the amazing community that has grown up around this show. After all, there is a lot more talk going on at the Prancing Pony podcast than just us.

[B]

Yep, because the PPP really does have a warm and welcoming listener community. If you've got questions or you just want to talk about how much you love Middle Earth, be sure to check out our Common room on Facebook and across all social media on Facebook. Just look for the Prancing Pony podcast and yep, there is a page. But you're going to want to join the group for that great fan community.

[A]

Now on every social media platform other than Facebook. We're @prancingponypod and you can find our subreddit @r prancingponypod. And please check out my Daily show, today's Tolkien Times on YouTube and all your favorite podcast apps. Get your daily Middle Earth fix with everything from Middle Earth Map Mondays to Word Nerd Wednesdays. Be sure to watch or [e-mail] prancingponypod.

[B]

Okay, well, let's go barreling on towards the happy ever after. That's definitely gonna happen soon.

[A]

I'm sure. Right. This story does have to have a eu catastrophe. Don't they all just ask Tour. And the answer is no.

[B]

The answer is definitely no.

[A]

Then out of the east upon a cloudy wind, Hiralonde came back over the grey seas, bearing Aldarien to Romena, and word was sent to Aemaria. But Arendus did not speak of it. There were none to greet Eldarion upon the keys. He rode through the rain to Armenelos, and he found his house shut. He was dismayed, but he would ask news of no man. First he would seek the king, for he thought he had much to say to him. He found his welcome no warmer than he looked for. And Meneldor spoke to him as king to a captain who. Whose conduct is in question. You have been long away, he said coldly. It is more than three years now since the date that you set for your return. Alas, said Eldarion, even I have become weary of the sea, and for long my heart has yearned westward. But I have been detained against my heart. There is much to do, and all things go backward in my absence. I do not doubt it, said Meneldor. You will find it true here also in your right land. I fear that I hope to redress, said Eldarion. But the world is changing again. Outside nigh on a thousand years have passed since the lords of the west sent their power against Angband, and those days are forgotten or wrapped in dim legend. Among men of Middle Earth. They are troubled again, and fear haunts them. I desire greatly to consult with you. You to give account of my deeds and my thoughts concerning what should be done. You shall do so, said Meneldur. Indeed, I expect no less. But there are other matters which I judge more urgent. Let a king first rule well his own house ere he correct others. It is said. It is true of all men. I will now give you counsel, Son of Meneldur. You have also a life of your own. Half of yourself you have ever neglected to you. I say now go home. Eldarion stood suddenly still, and his face was stern. If you know, tell me, he said, where is my home? Where your wife is, said Meneldur. You have broken your word to her, whether by necessity or no. She dwells now in a meriea in her own house, far from the sea. Thither. You must go at once. Had any word been left for me whither to go, I would have gone directly from the haven, said Eldarion. But at least I need not now ask tidings of strangers. He turned then to go, but paused, saying, captain Aldarien has forgotten somewhat that belongs to his other half, which in his waywardness he also thinks urgent. He has a letter that he was charged to deliver to the king at Armenelos. Presenting it to Meneldor, he bowed and left the chamber, and within an hour he took horse and rode away. Though night was falling, my eyes were.

[B]

Rolling and my head was shaking through the vast majority of that, like. Oh, my goodness.

[A]

Oh, man. Captain Aldarian has forgotten something.

[C]

Oh.

[B]

If I could reach through the page and slap this man silly. Yeah, honestly. Anyway, let's talk about this.

[A]

Yes, let's.

[B]

We skipped a tiny bit at the beginning and the end of this passage. Because we have to skip something, of course. But let's look at what we learn in that bit. We pass by, we read about the passing of two more years.

[A]

Oh, goodness.

[B]

Why are we not surprised? So that we're now in the spring of 882, with Ancalame now nine years old. And then spring passes, as does summer and autumn.

[A]

That's right. And I think I really enjoy the visual description we're given of this passage of time. And it's also. I think it also serves as a reminder to us once again that Eldarion has failed to keep his word. It's just this visual, slow passage of time. And then we get autumn turned terrain. So I'm sort of feeling like it's November. Y. There's no. They don't actually give us a date. But if it's now not just autumn, like harvest time, it's now turning into rain.

[B]

So it feels like November because winter is coming, right?

[A]

Yes, exactly.

[B]

Yes. Funny that we started our reading with the arrival of Girilonde, as we speculated about before. There's enough time from the observation of the ship to its arrival in Romana, to get word to Arendis.

[A]

Exactly. You know, she talked about it before. Why do you want me to come? I'll come when we hear that he's going to be there, right?

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Not that she does that this time. Right. She doesn't care. She doesn't say anything. She doesn't do anything. This is that cold anger and indifference that we read about last week, and I. I come back to that whole idea that hate isn't the opposite of love. Indifference is. She's done. So done. But the problem is, while she has the right to make that decision for herself, it means that she also doesn't bring their daughter to greet her father. What do you think about that?

[B]

Oh, this is so complicated, isn't it? I mean, she does have every right to be angry at Aldarion. Every right?

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Apart from anything else. He gave his word.

[A]

Oh, yeah. Two years. Two years is all I ask. Five years later.

[B]

Yeah, yeah. I mean, he lied. He gave his word. And I do wonder really how much he intended to keep his word even as he was giving it.

[A]

Well, I feel like he probably in his. Because keep in mind, this is the kind of guy who says, of course I'm going to do this, right? I intend to do this. I'm going to speak these big words and I mean them when I say them. And then shiny, you know, and so he's. He believes them at the moment.

[B]

Yeah. And then it's, ooh, squirrel.

[A]

But then he forgets. Exactly. Very much. Exactly. Ooh, shiny. Ooh, squirrel. And yes, he can claim. Oh, even I'm tired of being at this.

[B]

Oh, well, bully for you. Oh, are you tired of the sea now?

[A]

That's gonna make everybody else happy, I'm sure.

[B]

Poor Aldarion. You're even tired of the sea now.

[A]

Oh, come and. Come and sit next to me, Lord, and tell me just how tired you are.

[B]

Yeah, come here, Pat, Pat, Pat. Yeah, but, yeah, to get back to your point, that unilateral decision to keep an Calume home in Emmeriae, again, this is really complicated. Is she really keeping her daughter from Eldarion or is she just refusing to leave her home and trek the child across country to present her there and then? I mean, frankly, I think I'd make him come to me.

[A]

Maybe. But the thing that I'm thinking of is what we read here in the text, that Erendis did not speak of it. So that means she didn't say to Ankala May, by the way, your father is returning. There's word that, yeah, that's a bad.

[B]

Thing, that's a mistake.

[A]

And at that point I agree with you that her necessarily taking the child to. On a mental loss may not make any sense, given especially how she feels about Eldarion. But I wonder, like, she's got a whole team of servants. She could very easily say, zameen, grab one or two of the other young ladies in the household, take Ankalim and journey to Armenolas, or ask Ankalame, would you like me to send you? I'm not going to come with you because your father's a jerk and I can't stand him. But would you like me to send you so that you can be there to greet him?

[B]

So you would put your 10 year old daughter on the road with some servants and not wonder if Aldarion would actually allow her to return.

[A]

Oh, that's a good point. That's a very good point. There is no custodial agreement in place. He could very well just decide he's.

[B]

The son of the king.

[A]

Yeah, yeah, he's going to be hard to stop. That's. I had not considered that. Because as much of a jerk as he is, and let's be honest, I'm not on the pro Aldarian side. I didn't even consider that he would do that. But you're right, he might. And certainly from Arrindus perspective, even if, even if you and I consider and say, oh no, that's clearly not something he'll do, you know, and even if the text were to make it clear that he would never do that, that doesn't mean Arrendus doesn't believe that.

[B]

Exactly. Arendus has no reason to trust Aldarion or his word.

[A]

Yeah. And Kalameh is too young. Like if she were 14, you could say, go and greet your father if you would like. But know that, you know, I want you to come home. And then that way that, that, that young adult could speak for herself and say, no, I'm. I would like to go back home. Yeah, yeah. And she's going to speak her mind and have an opinion and argue for that and even go to Maneldor and say, no, I want to go back to my mom. But a nine year old might not have that same capability to advocate self advocate.

[B]

Highly unlikely.

[A]

Very unlikely.

[B]

Even if she did, what could she do about it?

[A]

Right?

[B]

I mean, a 14 year old might say, you know, screw you, I'm grabbing.

[A]

I'm getting on a horse and riding home. Right, exactly.

[B]

9 year old, 10 year old world really can't do that.

[A]

100% right about that. That makes some sense.

[B]

I just thought I'd throw that in there.

[A]

No, I'm glad you did, because I really hadn't thought about that. Honestly.

[B]

I mean, I, I am not advocating for horrendous oh, no behavior.

[A]

You'll be beating the horrendous pinata for the next three weeks.

[B]

Oh, yes, exactly. There are so many things the pair of them are doing. I would just like to put them in a room and slap both of them until they go, oh, oh, now I understand why you're doing that.

[A]

Yes, yes.

[B]

But, but I just, I think not trying to Be devil's advocate. But just trying to see this from all points of view, of course. That with Orendis having no reason to trust Aldarion.

[A]

Oh, none.

[B]

She cannot trust his word. And that is terrible, that is.

[A]

Yeah. Because now she can't believe anything that comes out of his mouth.

[B]

Yeah, exactly. So I personally would be extremely reluctant to send my child off with a bunch of servants who also would not be able to gain, say, the son of the king.

[A]

No, it's true. He is the son of the king. I mean, who's going to stop him?

[B]

Yeah, Right. Certainly not some servants. Yeah. Do I think it's bad that she didn't say anything to Ancalame about the return of her father? Oh, yes.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Yes. I mean, that's just ridiculous. And a terrible mistake. Because.

[A]

Nothing else, obviously.

[B]

He's kind of calm. So.

[A]

Yeah. At some point. And if nothing else, even if Orendus didn't want to see him, which, again, no blame if she had sold on Calumet. Hey, your dad's coming home. We can go to our mental loss. I will not go to the docks to meet him. But I'll be in town, so I can still make sure that he doesn't take you. I can make sure you're safe. But if you would like to see him, then we can make that happen. That would have been a little bit more good compromise. Yeah, but it is. It is a journey. I mean, we know how long it takes. We know that it takes him essentially 24 hours riding at speed to get there. It would have taken them probably two or three days at a more normal clip.

[B]

Definitely. Because they would be in like.

[A]

Yeah, carriages or. Yeah, something rather than just on a horseback. So, yeah.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Well. So he finally arrives.

[B]

Yes. No one welcomes him then. Oh, dear. Not Arrindis, not Ancalame. Not even his parents.

[A]

Not even his parents.

[B]

Poor Aldarion.

[A]

I know. Let me get out. The world's smallest violin.

[B]

Yeah, exactly. And you can see that he's not happy about it.

[A]

Oh, yeah.

[B]

What was he expecting?

[A]

There were none to greet him.

[B]

Oh, how sad.

[A]

He rode through the rain and found his house shut. So, yeah, he goes there and it's locked up. Remember, Rendezvous had prepared that house according to the King's wishes. But that was three years ago.

[B]

Yes. You know, for when he said he'd be home.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

Yeah. Huh.

[B]

So I just don't think this man has got any room to complain that the house was not ready for him when he's three years past his due date. Frankly, you know, I'm amazed the house was left. I might have set fire to it if I was offended. But anyway. Oh, well. And you know, then when he didn't show, this is three years ago, she grew hard and silent and she ordered that house be shut. Of course, I think it was just the last straw for horrendous. That.

[A]

Yeah. Like it. I didn't even want you to go, but you went and I said, okay, son of Tuare and a Arendelle, be like your forefathers and keep your word. Yeah, you didn't. I'm out. That's it.

[B]

Yeah. I wonder if there might even have been a way back for them. If he turned up.

[A]

If he turned up on time and then said, I'm done sailing. You know, at least until on Calumet is an adult. Maybe.

[B]

Maybe. I mean, I'm not saying it would have been happy.

[A]

Family had to earn it, I think. I don't know these kids.

[B]

But it might. Might have been possible at least for them to be civil.

[A]

Oh, yes, definitely. But that's long gone.

[B]

Oh, that is definitely not going to happen anymore. And so when he arrives, despite him being the King's heir, he didn't ask anyone. He doesn't stop at a pub or a shop and say, hey, I'm back. Why is everyone so quiet?

[A]

Seriously, he would ask news of no man. Why? Why would he? Do not do that.

[B]

Too blooming proud, isn't he?

[A]

Exactly. I think he knows what everybody would think of him. Him, Honestly, he doesn't want the public displeasure, the censure of. Oh, you've decided to come back now, have you?

[B]

Yes. Can you imagine? He pops into a bar and says, hey, does anyone know where my wife is? The barkeep says, oh, you have a wife, do you? And you are who again?

[A]

Yeah, exactly. You think you're going to be the King. So, no, instead of talking to anybody, he decides he's going to look for the King to give him a piece of his mind, it looks like. The text says he thought he had much to say to him.

[B]

Oh, God. Honestly, this man has this. Honestly, he has got the emotional maturity of a two year old. Seriously, he's so entitled. You can almost imagine him stomping into that house saying, you know, where is.

[A]

My bread and ale.

[B]

Lord? Honestly, I mean, don't get us wrong, he had some things to say, some very important things.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Oh, yes. Or more specifically, as we'll find out, a letter to give him. And it's actually incredibly important. Letter.

[A]

Super crucial. I mean, that's where we get the crossover with the history of Middle Earth and the lore and all of that. Like that's where this story intersects with the rest of the story.

[B]

It is. And it's such an important letter. But unfortunately, it's Mineldor that has some things he needs to say to Aldarion.

[A]

I love this. I know we've worn out our pretend shocked face, but here it is again. He found his welcome no warmer than he looked for.

[B]

No, I can do that pretend shocked face again.

[A]

At least one more time.

[B]

Yeah, at least one more time.

[A]

At least this time though, there's something to be said. The coldness of his welcome wasn't a surprise. Like he knew. He knew full well that he's crossed the Rubicon.

[B]

Right. I mean, his dad isn't thrilled about the delay. A two year journey. Ha. Which went over time by 150%.

[A]

Yeah, yeah, I know. Even I'm tired of being at sea. I really wanted to come home. I was kept against my wishes. The dog ate my homework. My car wouldn't start. I got a flat tire. His excuses are really wearing thin.

[B]

Yes, it's all. It wasn't my fault I'm late.

[A]

Yeah. Oh yeah.

[B]

Because nothing's ever his fault.

[A]

Nothing's ever his fault.

[B]

No. And then he says all things go backward in my absence.

[A]

Gee, you think?

[B]

Do you know, so much of this little snippet of the story has me just casting my eyes heavenward because what a jerk this man is.

[A]

I'm so important. All things go backwards backward in my absence. Ah.

[B]

I mean, true. But realize that when he says this, he's saying things in Middle Earth go backwards when he's not there. Vignolande. If nothing else.

[A]

That's true. I mean, it's basically gone. But Minelder's point is like, you know, son, you couldn't be more correct if you tried. But. But only if you're talking about here in Numenor, which isn't. Yeah. Maybe you should consider being present here. I want to point out the very easy to miss line that Meneldor says. True. Also in your right land. I fear he's reminding him this is your home. This is your right land. Not Middle Earth, but Numenor.

[B]

Yeah, but I don't think Eldarion gets the point.

[A]

No, I don't think he does.

[B]

If he's hoping to redress things going backwards here, does he mean his family, which I doubt, or does he think it's just the lumber yards and the tree industry? I don't know. It doesn't actually look like he's trying to redress anything in our next reading.

[A]

Well, no, that's fair. I mean, it's pretty clear in his conversations with Horrendous, there's no attempt at all to be a decent human being and accept responsibility for any of his actions. Which again, reminds me, he said, well, maybe there was a chance. There was even a chance here, as we'll get to. There was even a chance. She's just looking for a little bit of. Of just a little bit. Just give me a sliver. I mean, her standards now are low. Her bar is low.

[B]

Oh, it's so low it's on the floor.

[A]

All you've got to do is. We'll get there. But I just. You're right. I don't think he's trying to redress anything with his family. He's trying to redress what he thinks has gone backwards while he's gone. So he's gonna redress the Middle Earth stuff and then also redress anything with the shipbuilding industry and the ventures and things that have gone backwards in his absence.

[B]

Yeah, because actually, it's really all about him.

[A]

It is. Of course it is.

[B]

I wonder if he even thought about the fact that things might have gone backwards with his family. I'm not giving him the benefit of the doubt.

[A]

No benefit of the doubt on that one. He's not earned it. And as we'll see, it doesn't even appear that he thinks that. So now we start to get that story about Middle Earth and this is where we get that really important connection to the history of the Second Age. His point here is, look over there. Where men have normal lifespans. It's because it's been a thousand years since Morgoth was defeated. And nobody except the elves remember those days. So you think about this. You know, Meneldur is the fifth king, and really, he's honestly just the fourth to sit on the throne because of the whole, okay, fine, I'm 400 years old. I'm just going to let the throne pass me by, really. Not a lot of generations since Elros, you know, five generations really, at most since Elross's arrival. But it's been a thousand years. So if we're talking about normal human lifespan, generation, generations, we're talking a lot more generations. We're talking about like 40 generations. Right, because what, a generation is 25 years. Right. That's a lot of people to have lived and died. And thus the story about the defeat of Morgoth is no longer fresh in the minds of men. And so Aldarin's focus, of course, is not on the elves necessarily. I mean, he's built that friendship with Gil Galad, but here he's talking about the men of Middle Earth. They are troubled again and are afraid.

[B]

Yeah. And his point here is, you know, I need to debrief and talk about next steps, because basically, we have a job to do.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And Neldor certainly knows this. After five years, there's got to be a lengthy debrief. And I'm sure he would have had some interesting thoughts on what's happening in Middle Earth.

[A]

I'd love to hear them. I mean, in a way, he goes, that's interesting. I'm done.

[B]

Oh, yeah. He's just so angry at Aldarion right now that, frankly, I don't think anything else was going to register.

[A]

No. And I cannot wait for that moment because that is such an interesting decision on Vanilla's part. And it's. I think it's absolutely the right one to put the pressure on him. But I get. I get it. Like, what? But we'll get there. His whole thing, though, is like, look, you know, we do have to talk about that, and that's important, but we've got to get something straight. As important as our role is for the men of Middle Earth, as much as it's going to impact history and the second Age, he says, I judge more urgent one thing, and that is critical.

[B]

Yes, it is. He cites a proverb that I'm pretty sure Aldarian would have been familiar with. He says, let a king first rule well his own house ere he correct others.

[A]

I love that proverb, and we'll discuss that here in a little bit. But I want to point out before we do, that he then reminds Aldarian that that is true of all men and not just the king. That includes the king's heir, who needs to do this. Clearly, Meneldor is telling his son, first rule well, your own house. But I can't help but hear a little bit in my mind Meneldor telling himself the same thing and giving his son this wisdom, because that's how he can rule well, his own house. Thoughts. I mean, what I think he's also regretting maybe not having. We've talked about, should he have laid down the law? Would it have changed anything at all if he had forbade him from sailing five years earlier? I don't know. I don't think it would have.

[B]

I would imagine he does have some regrets. And, yeah, I think to a Certain extent we can absolve him of a fair chunk of the guilt because I think it would have been very difficult to prevent Aeldari on doing exactly what he wanted.

[A]

Yeah, I mean, he forbade him from sailing. He still sailed.

[B]

Yes, exactly.

[A]

This guy's gonna do what he wants to do.

[B]

It's very difficult to stop someone who actually does already have a position of power. As the king's heir. He has a position of power and he's able to command others. So it would have been very difficult. But again, I'm not absolving him of everything because he hasn't done a bang up job of being not just father to Eldarion, but the king who has to teach the heir how to be what he needs to be. And I. Yeah, I don't think he's done an absolutely spectacular job of that. And he might be telling Eldarion to first rule, well, his own house, but yes, maybe he should listen to himself a little bit there because he hasn't done that enough. So in my opinion anyway, it makes.

[A]

You wish that Benildur had a second son, that he could say, you know what? What? I'm thinking about passing you over for the kingship and giving it to your brother instead. They only have two other children, but they're both daughters. And at that point the law, much to Silmarian's regret, did not allow the scepter to pass to a woman.

[B]

Yeah, but Minelda does then straight up give Aldarion some real tough love advice. Yeah. He says you've ignored half of who you are. In other words, the half that doesn't doesn't sail upon the sea.

[A]

Right.

[B]

And he says unequivocally, go home.

[A]

That's as plain as it can be. You have a job to do, you need to go home.

[B]

Yes, because actually that's a huge part of what Aldarion needs to do if he's going to re establish who he is in Numenor. Not just as horrendous husband or even Ankalim's father, but he is not potliat at the moment amongst the two.

[A]

No, he's not. They all see what he's done and he has lost a lot of respect. If he's going to gain that back, he needs to go and first rule, well, his own house.

[B]

Exactly. Now Eldarion is pretty taken aback by this. Yeah, but he asked the question that has to have been in his mind since he found his house locked and shut. Where is my home now? I mean, there are certain layers to that Question. Aren't there? You could read that on many levels. Does he mean only where do I go now? Does he mean, is this. Is Numenor still my home? Am I still welcome here?

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

You know, where is my family? There's all sorts of that. So, I mean, let's talk about where Aldarion's home really is. What do you think?

[A]

That's a good point. I mean, it. It certainly he would want it to. He'd want it to be his houseboat, you know? Well, or maybe, you know, something that he's built in Vignolande. But yeah, you know, it's. On the surface. It just does. Means fine. Where is that? Because my house is shut. Yeah. Does he belong in Numenor anymore? Is this land even his home? I'm not going to feel sorry for him.

[B]

No. He's brought this on himself.

[A]

He absolutely has. Right. But it is a tough spot to be in this individual moment, to be unsure. This is a man who, if nothing else, he's usually very sure of himself. Of course. Right. Overly sure. But he literally doesn't even know where to go. That's probably got to be a new and confusing place for him.

[B]

Oh, come over here, Eldarion. I'll tell you where to go.

[A]

Oh, yeah? Oh, yeah. I'll tell you where to go. I've got plenty of ideas. Meneldor makes the simple point. Point. You are a married man. Your home is therefore where your wife is, where the person that you vowed to care for is, and where the child you have created with her is.

[B]

Do you know, you get such a sense of disappointment from an Eldor at this point?

[A]

I'm not angry with you, son, but I am so disappointed.

[B]

Do you try that on your kids?

[A]

No, not yet.

[B]

Yeah. My daughter has referred a few times to the. The. The few occasions when she was a teenager when I did say to her, I am so disappointed with your choices right now. Gunk.

[A]

It's hard, but it's. But it's true.

[B]

Mineldor here, he could simply have left it at, you know, where your wife is.

[A]

Right.

[B]

This is where your home is. But he lays into him pretty strongly here.

[A]

I love it. Yes. Get him. Get him.

[B]

Yeah. And Aldarion deserves every single bit of it and more.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Oh, yeah. Regardless of your excuses, you have broken your promise, you have broken your oath. And look at how Eldarion kind of responds to this.

[A]

Yeah. I'm not sure I buy his next statement. Right. If somebody had just told me where to go, I'd have gone There, straight from the harbor. I mean, after all, we read that he's got important news for the King. I mean, he's got this letter that he does need to deliver. And he also, you know, I want to give the King a piece of my mind, or whatever it is. Right. I, I, I thought I had much to say to him, but I still think he would have looked for the King first.

[B]

No, this is Aldarion absolving himself again.

[A]

This is just him giving himself. Well, if only you had done this. If only somebody had done this. Yeah.

[B]

Yes. Then I wouldn't be in this awkward position right now.

[A]

It's not my fault.

[B]

No. And I'm not sure what he's got against strangers. Also known as the people of whom I shall be king.

[A]

That's quite true. Right. I don't want to ask strangers.

[B]

Yeah, yeah. He adds that snarky line about not having to ask them for news.

[A]

I know well, about news. Orendus left a note for you on the door, but it was three years ago. The ink has faded and the sticky note just fell off. You know, that's. Don't blame her. Don't blame anybody else but you.

[B]

Yeah. For this. For this particular problem he's facing. This is not Arendus's fault.

[A]

No, this is all. Yeah, trust me, there are going to be plenty of things that are.

[B]

Oh, yes, but not this.

[A]

So before he leaves, he again digs at his father about the other half of me. Blah, blah, blah. Refers to himself in the third person.

[B]

Oh, dear.

[A]

Can we just acknowledge that is universally a bad thing to do?

[B]

It's a really bad thing.

[A]

You know, things have gone wrong when it's, you know, Captain Eldarion has forgotten somewhat. That belongs to his other half. Come on, man.

[B]

And notice he calls himself Captain Aldarion, which is very much rooting him as the person who goes on board ship and.

[A]

Yeah, the mariner.

[B]

Yeah, that. That's who's standing in front of you right now. That, that part of me. Oh. I have a job to do. I have a letter that I've been tasked with bringing directly to you. I thought you were gonna go straight from Ramena to your. Never. Never mind.

[A]

Mind, because you wouldn't have done that.

[B]

Yep. So he hands over the letter, then he immediately leaves and he heads out of Armenelos within the hour.

[A]

That's right. And then the final bit that we also skipped, we find that he doesn't travel to Emerie by himself. He is the King's heir, after all. He does take two companions with him from the Venturers, one of whom is Ulbar, the father of the boy that we met last Reading Ebal. And we're going to get out to Emerie. Sara, take us away.

[B]

She held herself high, but as he drew near he saw that she was pale and her eyes over bright. You come late, my lord, she said. I had long ceased to expect you. I fear that there is no such welcome prepared for you as I had made when you were due. Mariners are not hard to please, he said. That is well, she said, and she turned back into the house and left him him. Then two women came forward, and an old crone who went down the steps. As Aldarion went in, she said to the men in a loud voice so that he could hear her, there is no lodging for you here. Go down to the homestead at the hill's foot. No, Zamin, said Ulbar, I'll not stay. I am for home. By the Lord Aldarion's leave. Is all well there? Well enough, said she. Your son has eaten himself out of your memory. But go and find your own answers. You'll be warmer there than your captain. Arendus did not come to the table at his late evening meal, and Aldarion was served by women in a room apart. But before he was done, she entered and said before the women, you will be weary, my lord, after such haste. A guest room is made ready for you when you will. My women will wait on you. If you are cold, call for fire. Aldarion made no answer. He went early to the bedchamber, and being now weary indeed, he cast himself on the bed, and forgot soon the shadows of Middle Earth and of Numenor in a heavy sleep. But at cock crow he awoke to a great disquiet and anger. He rose at once, and thought to go without noise from the house. He would find his man Hendoch and the horses, and ride to his kinsman Halatan, the sheep lord of Hierostaune. Later he would summon Arendis to bring his daughter to Armenelos and not have dealings with her upon her own ground. But as he went out towards the doors, Arendis came forward. She had not lain in bed that night, and she stood before him on the threshold. You leave more promptly than you came, my lord, she said. I hope that, being a mariner, you have not found this house of women irksome already to go thus before your business is done. Indeed, what business brought you hither? May I learn it before you leave? I was told in Armenelos that my wife was here and had removed my daughter hither, he answered. As to the wife, I am mistaken, it seems, but have I not a daughter? You had one some years ago, she said, but my daughter has not yet risen. Then let her rise while I go for my horse, said Aldarion.

[A]

Well, yeah. So if y' all thought it was bad to begin with, it just gets worse.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

Let's talk a little bit about the short portion that we skipped and what we find out. When we last left the previous reading, Aldarien had ridden from Armenelas, though night was falling here, we learned they arrived at Emmeria at nightfall of the next day. And that was after a full day of riding hard. Now, Tolkien's own map of Numenor suggests a distance of around 120 miles, 190km as the crow flies, so probably longer than that on roads they definitely had to ride hard to get there in 24 hours. That's. That's a lot of distance to cover.

[B]

I feel a bit sorry for the horses.

[A]

I do, too. Oh, that's a really hard ride. I mean, it's not Shadowfax riding to Minas Tirith from just outside Isengard, but it's not too far off.

[B]

It really isn't. Eldarion blows a horn when he sees the White House. Beautiful. End of day description in that bit.

[A]

Oh, isn't it the gleam of sunset?

[B]

Yes, gorgeous. And it appears that blown horn has got the attention of Arendys. And as he dismounts, there she is standing on the steps. Now we see her from Eldarion's perspective. Clad in white, held herself high, pale, her eyes over bright.

[A]

Over bright. I wanted to ask you about that. What does that signify to you? Or.

[B]

I think she's holding in emotion, to be honest. She's pale and her eyes being over bright says to me that she's really holding back some emotion here. Can you imagine the turmoil of emotion that's going on inside her right now?

[A]

It's gotta be overwhelming coming. I'm almost imagining, like, when you hold back tears and your eyes are even more glisteny. Yes, I'm seeing that, perhaps, but anger? Yeah. Oh, no doubt. Anger.

[B]

Oh, boy. Yeah.

[A]

And that's the thing. It's such a potent mix of emotions. And she had to know this moment was coming or she had to suspect this moment was coming. There's always a possibility that he would never come see them again, that he would just abandon them. Pretty unlikely, given his position as the king's heir, that he would do Something so publicly remonstrable, but not out of the question.

[B]

Oh, no, no.

[A]

But I'll tell you what. This is such a. Such an unfortunate direction this conversation goes. Horrendous is respectful. She's not being mean, but she is distant and we've talked about that. She's trying to protect herself, for crying out loud.

[C]

She's.

[A]

Like you said, she has been hurt and he has broken his word. So she has every right to be distant. This certainly is a cold welcome. This isn't. I've missed you so much, my love. I'm so grateful you have returned to me, you know, Nor would I expect that, by the way.

[B]

I don't know that you might not. But I'm wondering if Aldarion was thinking.

[A]

Was he expecting her to just be like, I'm so glad you're here.

[B]

I mean, he is a bit oblivious.

[A]

He is. He is clueless, that's true, but he's.

[B]

So clueless that, I mean, even if we absolve him of the cluelessness, that would be a man expecting that kind of effusive welcome from your wife that you abandoned years ago. I think the way in which he responds to her coldness is so terrible. It is because it just perpetuates the problem.

[A]

Exactly.

[B]

Yes. The sensitive man here would have got off the horse and said, I am so sorry.

[A]

Yeah, before you say anything, I own that I did this thing. I am deeply sorry. I broke my word. I wished I could have come back and we can talk about that later, but I know I told you I'd come back and I didn't. That is entirely on me.

[B]

Please, will you allow me into the house so we can sit and talk?

[A]

Yes, exactly. Exactly.

[B]

Yeah, but he's never going to do that, is he?

[A]

Going back to one of the times after his voyages. And he goes and he's riding in the Westlands and he sees her, right? He literally mistakes her for an elf. Then he says, and this is exactly the kind of approach he needed to take here too, well, have I deserved that you should flee from me, who have fled so often and so far? I mean, that was a man who. Who at that time at least acknowledged it, or acknowledged that she would see it that way, if nothing else. And then here he's just like, whatever. Mariners are not hard to please. What the heck, man?

[B]

Oh, boy. I mean, even saying that he's a mariner, I mean, duh, he's a.

[A]

He's a husband and a father and the heir to the kingship.

[B]

I'm A mariner.

[A]

Mariner, yeah.

[B]

That's really what you wanted to remind her of at this point. He's just so dumb.

[A]

He is. He's dense. And I'm not going to say he's clueless. He's clearly not completely dumb, but he's so self absorbed, he can't even begin to consider what this must be like from a perspective. He is literally only able to see it through his own eyes. And for him it's like, well, I'm back. I'm back. Hey, shouldn't you be happy now?

[B]

Yes. Yeah, I mean, I summoned you to the door with my trumpet.

[A]

I've never done that before. I'm not gonna try.

[B]

No, I'm fairly certain that your wife would not take well to that.

[A]

No, no, I don't think so. I'm not gonna. I don't want to try to find out.

[B]

No, no. Because I don't want to read about your obituary in the paper.

[A]

The next day, Alan pulls his car to the into the garage and honks his horn.

[B]

I am home, wife.

[A]

That's right.

[B]

Bring bread and ale.

[A]

Greet me.

[B]

Oh, oh, please will you make sure filming is happening well, you regret to.

[A]

Inform me the Prancing Bony podcast has just ended unexpectedly after X years. Yeah.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

Anyway. Due to the death of its primary host.

[B]

Sudden and unexp expected. Anyway, horrendous. Makes it quite clear. She says you're really, really late. Yeah. And she drives us home three times. She says, you come late, we have long ceased to expect. And then she says, when you were due.

[A]

She is not letting up. Nope. But she's not doing it in a naggy, annoying, complaining way. She's just making clear she's cold about it. There's no doubt about it.

[B]

She's making a point.

[A]

She's making her point and she makes it well. But she's still showing him deference. She's still giving him windows of opportunity. And that's what we'll get to later, I think, in the next reading. But he doesn't respond to this at all. He doesn't.

[B]

All those windows shut and then he blows them up.

[A]

Hammers the nails in. He doesn't apologize for being late. This is the guy I. Two years. Two years is all I want. Two years. It's not too much to ask. I'm going to die if I stay on shore any longer.

[B]

That could also be arranged.

[A]

That's correct. If you'd like, we can scatter your ashes at sea.

[B]

Then you can really be a mariner.

[A]

That's right. But, you know, we go back to his conversation with his father about him trying to redress things that have gone backwards in his absence. This does not look like redressing anything.

[B]

It does not, does it?

[A]

No.

[B]

Instead, he just says, as you mentioned earlier, mariners are not hard to please, which so misses the point.

[A]

Seriously, man.

[B]

And so she just heads back into the house, and two of her servants, plus Zamin, they come out.

[A]

Yeah. And that's when, of course, as he follows her into the house, we get to see Zamin telling the men that rode with him, Henderk and Ulbar, you can't stay here. You don't have to go home, but you can't stay here. There is a homestead down at the bottom of the hill, Right?

[B]

Of course they can't stay there because no men are allowed.

[A]

No way. And no men would want to stay there, frankly. Right. The ones who come by with a message like, that place is creepy, man. Don't make me go back.

[B]

Yeah. Ulbar can't get out of there quickly enough. I mean, he's not looking for a place to stay. Certainly not here, and not even at the homestead. In fact, he says, I'm going home with. With Aldarion's permission. And he asks for an update on home.

[A]

I love that. See, he cares.

[B]

At least he's asking.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Right. So if you remember earlier this episode when Ancalime and Ebal have their encounter with Zamin, telling her how her dad is out on the ship with her father, Aldarion, how he's growing so fast and if Ulbar doesn't come back soon, he won't recognize him. Well, now she tells Ulbar that, well, he's grown up. He's eaten himself out of your memory.

[A]

Love that phrase. I love the way that's put perfect.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And again, Tolkien showing that he can write a character speaking with nobility and highness and majesty, but he can also write this common sense old country woman who's just free tongued.

[B]

Reminds me of a certain medicine woman in Gondor.

[A]

Oh, yeah. This is like a predecessor to Yorith for sure.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

I have to ask you, what do you make of her closing? Snark? You'll be warmer there than your captain.

[B]

I love it. I do, too.

[A]

She knows she can read.

[B]

I just think this is so funny, because what I love about this character and what I love about how Tolkien is able to do this with these otherwise very minor characters is he gives them such personality. It's why I loved Ioreth when we got to her. She's not like Zamin, but she's got her own personality and we know who she is from what she says and does in that very tiny amount of time we have with her here, we know who Zamin is. I want to be Zamin when I'm older. I just think she's got perfect snark because the way in which she says this is just absolutely brilliant.

[A]

It really is. And you gotta wonder, did Irendis hear this? Did Eldarion hear this?

[B]

Oh, I hope so.

[A]

I think they did, yeah.

[B]

She doesn't trouble to lower a voice, so she doesn't.

[A]

She is free tongued and not easily intimidated. The scene then cuts to inside the White House where Eldarion is eating a late dinner served notably by Arrindis's servants. Not by Arrindus and not with Orendus.

[B]

Yes, that'd be a nice quiet supper all by yourself, won't it?

[A]

We'll feed you, that does. We don't have any obligation beyond that.

[B]

Yeah, exactly. And as he's wrapping up, she drops into where he's eating and informs him that a guest room is ready and her servants will wait on him. Wow. I love the last bit here though, especially in contrast with what Zamin said to Ulbar. If you're cold, call for fire. Don't be calling for me. You'll get no warmth out of me. So if you're cold, call for fire.

[A]

That's right. Oh, wow, this is. You'll be warmer there than your captain. But it's also a callback to their last conversation, which I'm just going to repeat. This was five years ago.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

When she said, too long and often of late, is my bed cold? And his response to that was two years. Two years is all that I ask. And here he is five years later and he's the one who's going to have a cold bed.

[B]

No sympathy.

[A]

No sympathy at all. What is going through her head?

[B]

A.

[A]

When that horn blows and he arrives because she had to know this moment was possible, likely, maybe probable to happen. And. And after he's there, what are the thoughts going through her head?

[B]

Well, when she heard that horn blow, I mean, I think her heart would be racing. She'd be dealing with so much mixed emotion going on here.

[A]

Conflict of emotion.

[B]

Even if she doesn't acknowledge it to herself, there's still the teeny tiny sliver of a chance that perhaps he will come home contrite, acknowledging his mistakes, maybe reach out a little bit. Even if she doesn't acknowledge this to herself. This has got to be down inside her. But then that first exchange just puts the. Well, finally, you know, it's the first stage of divorce here, really.

[A]

Yeah, it really is. I mean, I think you were right. There's this conflicting set of emotions. There's hope that maybe he will acknowledge what he's done. There's. I need to hold out this tiny sliver of a chance. But I'm also really angry, really hurt. There's a lot, like, I don't know what I'm going to experience. I don't know what I'm going to feel. And so much of that is going to be dependent on how Aldarian handles himself and what he says.

[B]

Oh, dear.

[A]

So at least there's this when he says, well, Mariners aren't hard to please. Mariners are easy to please. At least she now knows I can shut off that range of emotions. I now only need to focus on anger and coldness. Like, yes. I don't have to worry now about a hope of reconciliation. I don't have to worry about how I'm going to respond if he apologizes, because that's got to have come into her mind. Like, here's a guy who has apologized in the past who has said, you know, I deserve for you to run from me. And it seems impossible for her to resist that. You know, even when they got betrothed, she was in the middle of a fight with him when basically, he kisses her eyes and says sweet nothings and she says, how can I stay mad at you, basically?

[B]

And now she knows how.

[A]

And now she knows. Right. So at least for her, it simplifies, I would imagine, in a way that has given her some peace. In a way, like, well, at least now I know I don't have to worry about how I will forgive him, whether I can forgive him when the.

[B]

Moment comes, she can just wall that off.

[A]

Because there's no need to forgive somebody who isn't going to ever acknowledge that they've been done anything wrong in the first place.

[B]

Exactly. Yeah. She can just literally wall that off. And I think the time in between him entering the house and her entering that dining room, which will have been a little bit of time.

[A]

Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah.

[B]

That's given her the chance to just center herself, gather.

[A]

Gather her thoughts.

[B]

Yep. Okay, well, this is how I'm going to behave then. If this is how he's going to be, this is what he's going to get.

[A]

That's right. If you're cold. Cold, ask for fire.

[B]

Yeah, yeah. I mean, that. That's it. That's the absolute death knell of their marriage. If you're cold in bed, don't call for me.

[A]

Yeah, yeah, we're done.

[B]

Because it's not going to happen.

[A]

He recognizes that, as we'll see at the end of this reading.

[B]

Oh, yes. Yeah. And talking of bed, Aldarion actually is really tired, which is not a surprise. It's a good reason, given the distance covered over the last 24 hours. And so he had head straight to bed and a heavy sleep. But then he wakes up. He wakes up totally on the wrong side of the bed in the morning in a great disquiet and anger.

[A]

You know, I keep thinking that anger should be directed inwards.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

But why doesn't he ask her when she comes in while he's eating dinner, Sit with me, you know, while I. While I eat. I want to apologize for having been so long. Right. Why doesn't he treat her with kindness, with respect, with honor, with love. Love. She's got every right to be cold. He's the one who broke his promise. But he wakes up angry.

[B]

Yeah, I know.

[A]

I just. It's mind boggling to me how he can think I'm. I'm justifiably mad.

[B]

Yeah. And this is it. This is why I say he's got the emotional range of a teaspoon.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Because he. He really did have an opportunity here to acknowledge that she hasn't actually, towards him, done anything wrong. No, I mean, I say towards him because we can talk about the ancalame bit later. She hasn't done anything wrong to him. No, he is the one who has wronged her. I don't think Eldarion likes confronting the Eldarion that has done wrong. So much easier to be angry at the person who's making him feel bad.

[A]

That's right. Look at what you made me do, too.

[B]

Yes, I know. And isn't that awful? Yeah, yeah.

[A]

Awful, awful.

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

And this anger that he wakes up with drives him to just get up and leave quietly. He decides he's going to find Hender, who'd be at the homestead at the bottom of the hill and head out for Halatan's farm. And this is the sheep lord that Zamin was talking about earlier. Ulbar is a shepherd for Halatan and is a kinsman.

[A]

In fact, they're actually cousins. Holatan's great grandfather was the younger brother of Tar Amandil, who was of course Menelder's grandfather, the third king of Numenor. And we will see him again. In the story. Actually, on a few occasions right now.

[B]

Aldario's going to use this place like a hotel on a road trip. He's going to get some sleep and some food and just keep going. Who has he not asked for? Yeah, yeah, we'll get to that in a minute.

[A]

We sure will. And in the meantime. Well, though, that's where I'm going to say, why doesn't Horrendous have on Calume with her when. When he arrives? Like, why doesn't she bring her out when.

[B]

Why doesn't he ask for his daughter?

[A]

Why doesn't he ask.

[B]

Yeah, yeah, they're both as bad as each other with that.

[A]

They really are. They are. On that. On that count. But yeah, I think he's skipping the breakfast buffet at this particular hotel. He wants out before breakfast and he is going to leave. Never mind that Arendes is your wife and you owe her an apology and explanation. Instead, he decides, I'll just summon Horrendous to bring on Calumet to our mental loss.

[B]

This language. Oh, my goodness.

[A]

Summon. Summon to bring his daughter. We have so many problems with this, folks.

[B]

Oh, the list of problems.

[A]

So many problems. At least four. I'll give you the first two. First, he's being a coward right now by just not simply acknowledging his failure. He puts this off to later and it's just. Just highlighting that cowardice. That's number one. Number two, instead of talking with her like an equal, he's going to wait until he is in a position of power to summon her so that she will have no choice but to follow the rule of the king's heir.

[B]

Yeah. Which of course plays into the cowardice that you just mentioned.

[A]

Exactly.

[B]

Yeah. And third, to bring his daughter. I mean, Ancalame is their daughter.

[A]

Yeah, that's problematic. He sees her. This is also. He's not seen her. He's not asked for. He hasn't expressed any. Like, I miss my. I miss our daughter. Nothing like that. So he's seeing her in my mind as just property. Like.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

Yeah. This is awful.

[B]

Yeah, yeah. So many. So many issues here. And fourth, this is also. He won't have to deal with her upon her own ground. No home field advantage. It is deal with her on her own ground. He wants the home field advantage because he knows that he cannot really force Arendes to do anything. Although I think he would like to.

[A]

He still has authority. That's the thing. I mean, all I see this as is evening the scales a little bit. Right. He is the king's Heir. He has authority and power, whether we think that should be or not. She's in a place, at least she's at home. She's in control of the location. Home field advantage. No, this is just home field balancing. Right. This is a way to sort of tip the scales. But he's such a coward.

[B]

He wants to take the power back from Erendis.

[A]

Yes, he does.

[B]

Because the power that Arendus is wielding is making him very uncomfortable.

[A]

Oh, very.

[B]

And he doesn't like being made uncomfortable. And so, rather than looking inward and asking himself, what have I done to deserve this enmity? What have I done? And actually listing all the many things that he's done, instead, he chooses to be angry at horrendous. Because that makes him feel better about himself.

[A]

It's like I once met empathy. I don't. Nothing to do with that thing ever again. You know, he has zero ability to view this. Consider this from her perspective at all.

[B]

I agree.

[A]

He could do nothing wrong.

[B]

And, you know, he tries to sneak out in the early morning.

[A]

Coward.

[B]

I know. But Arendis isn't going to let him go quite so easily.

[A]

I love that. I love that. She was. Wait. She knew that this was, like, one of the possible options because we read she had not lain in bed that night. Now, we already knew she wasn't going to lay in bed with Aeldari, and that was obvious. If you're cold, ask for fire. But that means she didn't even lay down in her own bed. She had been up all night. Yeah, I think she expected him to take the coward's way out.

[B]

Maybe. Maybe she expected him to just sneak out. But also the emotional turmoil.

[A]

Yeah, that's true.

[B]

She's gonna lie down with that. I mean, she's. She's going to be angry. And actually, walling off a part of yourself is not that easy.

[A]

It's a lot of work.

[B]

You can do it in the moment, and then you have to do it again. And you have to do it again because it will keep sneaking back on you. This is a man that she loved so much. She waited decades for him.

[A]

Yeah. She was 99.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

When they finally got married.

[B]

Yeah. And actually, I'm not surprised she didn't sleep at all. I don't think I would either.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Because it's a horrible, horrible situation. I mean, okay, he slept soundly. He was tired.

[A]

Fatigue.

[B]

Right. Yes. But, you know, I've been really, really fatigued and not been able to sleep because Stuff.

[A]

Yeah. If you're upset, if you're hurt, if you're angry, you know, sad, too, as we'll read. There's grief involved here as well. Yeah.

[B]

Yes, that. Her comment on her question, though, remain aloof. She's not disrespectful. She's not attacking him. But it's certainly not warm. In fact, there is. I. I loved it. The strong undertone of snarling.

[A]

There sure is.

[B]

Oh, I hope we've not annoyed you, being a house full of women and you a mariner and all, since mariners are easy to please. Right.

[A]

I like that she used the word irksome. Okay. By the way, that means irritating or annoying because it's something we've noticed before. When he came back with that big diamond for her in 820. That was 62 years ago, for those of you keeping score. He and Maneldor had a little argument, and we read life on land was irksome to him.

[B]

Yeah. Still not feeling any sympathy.

[A]

Yeah, yeah.

[B]

But I did like that use of irksome. And then, most recently, as he was getting ready to go on this most recent trip, he came back to say goodbye to Horrendous, and she began to cry. Her tears grieved him and yet irked him. What an absolutely appalling person he is.

[A]

Thoroughly, thoroughly for tears to irk you. But I guess what I'm getting at.

[B]

Here makes him feel bad. He doesn't like to be made to feel bad.

[A]

Yeah. It's how easily annoyed he is. Life was irksome to him. Her tears irked him. And she's pointing out, hey, I hope we haven't been irksome to you. I think she's known him well enough to know how easily irked he is.

[B]

Oh, yes.

[A]

And she's calling him out on that. And it's. It's brilliant, but it just reminds us, you know, Tolkien's use of the word reminds us of how triggered he is at just the slightest thing. And with that slight dig out of the way, she gets to her point. What is your business? Why did you even come here? Hint Aldarian. This is the chance. This is your time to say, I came here to apologize. I came here to make things right. I came here to tell you I won't sail anywhere again. I came here to start over or something decent and halfway human. I know that's expecting too much.

[B]

Oh, yes.

[A]

But this is your chance.

[B]

Yeah. And it really was. We've talked about this now over this episode. He did have chances over and over.

[A]

Which is something Tolkien does all the time, doesn't he? Yeah. Every character, the bad guys always have, have opportunity after opportunity after opportunity to repent, to change their ways, to acknowledge the wrong and to fix it.

[B]

Choice. Yes. He. He makes his choices.

[A]

He sure does.

[B]

Aren't they doozies?

[A]

That's putting it mildly.

[B]

His response to her says it all.

[A]

Oh, it does.

[B]

I mean, this just made me clench my fist. I was told my wife was here with my daughter. I haven't seen my wife, but do I still have a daughter?

[C]

Oh.

[A]

As to the wife, I was mistaken.

[B]

Yeah, well, you know what? You're not wrong, actually.

[A]

No, you are correct.

[B]

You don't deserve a wife.

[A]

No, you really don't. You don't want one.

[B]

No.

[A]

Why are you complaining about not seeing your wife when you don't really care?

[B]

No, exactly. I mean, if you were hoping for open arms and warm bed, well, maybe you should have come back onto the time, but there you are.

[A]

Or. Or not sailed at all. Wink, wink, nudge, nudge.

[B]

Oh, yeah, there is that. These two, though they are terrible together. Horrendous response to him is not great. She could take the high road and say, our daughter is still asleep, but she puts his fatherhood in the past tense. And she also claims anime as my daughter. But let's remember, that's what he did.

[A]

She's just mirroring him here.

[B]

Yeah, she's mirroring what he's saying. Yeah. So, you know, I think it would be a lot to ask of Arendis to take the high road here.

[A]

Oh, it is.

[B]

Because we could keep expecting her to do the right thing, do the good thing, take the high road. But she never gets anything back from Aldarion. So there comes a point where, you know, you take the high road, I'll take the low road.

[A]

Yeah, yeah, I get it. I mean, it's. Yes, she could have. Yes, maybe she should have, but. But realistically, how could she have? You know?

[B]

Exactly. I mean, he shouldn't have made like Enya and sailed away. Sailed away. Sailed away. Frankly, that's his own fault for doing that and then coming back and simply being awful.

[A]

I don't like, though the you had one some years ago is like erasing. I don't know. It's tough. Speaking as somebody who was the child of a divorce and who was around the same age. Actually, now that I think about. I was 10 when my parents split. The damage that this does to the child.

[B]

Oh, yes.

[A]

To feel like I'm being told by my mother that my father isn't my father and I'm being told by my father that my mother isn't my mother and that, you know, I only have each of them, but I don't have both of them, and they can't. This is terrible. This is terrible. I would like to just. She can still be snarky. She could still be mean and just be like, she's still asleep. Like, come on, you know, she's a kid.

[B]

Yeah. Why don't you wait, have breakfast and then see her when she gets up.

[A]

Yeah. Instead of being a coward and trying to run away at dawn.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

But I get why she didn't. I'm not blaming her for not. I just wish she hadn't.

[B]

Yes. And we've talked about how this is generational trauma that's gonna pass down. The end result is so awful.

[A]

It really, really is. And then, of course, we end this section with Eldarion asking Arendus to wake their daughter to wake on Calumet while he gets ready to leave. Now, I can't imagine this is what Arendus wants. This is definitely. She's like, look, if you're gonna leave, just leave. But the go for my horse bit, that of course reminds us that he would need to head down to the homestead at the foot of the hill where the horses would be kept. That's also where Hendrik will have slept.

[B]

Yeah. Yeah.

[A]

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[B]

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[A]

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[B]

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[A]

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[B]

Okay Alan, well, let's take a deep breath and jump even further into this dreadful story.

[A]

Irendis would have withheld Ancalame from meeting him at that time, but she feared to go so far as to lose the king's favor, and the council had long shown their displeasure at the upbringing of the child in the country. Therefore, when Eldarion rode back with Hendrik beside him, and Calome stood beside her mother on the threshold, she stood erect and stiff as her mother, and made him no courtesy as he dismounted and came up the steps towards her. Who are you? She said, and why do you bid me to rise so early, before the house is stirring? Eldarion looked at her keenly, and though his face was stern, he smiled within, for he saw there a child of his own, rather than a varindus, for all her schooling. You knew me once, Lady Ancalame, he said. But no matter. Today I am but a messenger from Armenelas to remind you that you are the daughter of the king's heir, and so far as I can now see, you shall be his heir in your turn. You will not always dwell here, but go back to your bed now, my lady, until your maidservant wakes, if you will. I am in haste to see the king farewell. He kissed the hand of Ancalome and went down the steps. Then he mounted and rode away with a wave of his hand. Erendis, alone at a window, watched him riding down the hill, and she marked that he rode towards Haier Astorni and not towards Armenelos. Then she wept from grief, but still more from anger. She had looked for some penitence that she might extend after rebuke, pardon if prayed for, but he had dealt with her as if she were the offender and ignored her before her daughter too late she remembered the words of nooneth long before and she saw Eldarien now as something large and not to be tamed. Driven by a fierce will more perilous when chill she rose and turned from the window, thinking of her wrongs. Perilous, she said, I am steel, hard to break. So he would find even were he the King of Numenor.

[B]

Oh, boy.

[A]

Just want to cry. Like, this is so painful to read.

[B]

It really is. It's heartbreaking. Anyway, so as we guessed at the end of the last reading, waking and Calumet up to talks while Darion is the last thing Arendus to wants. Wants to do right now.

[A]

Yeah, I can't blame her.

[B]

She's in a bit of a bind. It's not that she's worried about Aldarion, though, right? Yeah. She has had the King's favor and she doesn't want to lose that.

[A]

No, I mean, for five years she's been that connection. You know, she's living in this house that he gave her. She's the one who, you know, closed the house in Armenolas to come back home. The council, we're told, is disapproved of her raising on Calum here in Emerie. So she really does need the King's support. And I just want to ask you, what do you think the reasons the council would have to say? I don't like that. She's being raised in the country.

[B]

She's not among the court. She's not being brought up as the daughter of the king's heir.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

So perhaps there's a bit of that going on, as well as disquiet at her being so sequestered amongst just a house of women. What kind of education is she getting? I can't imagine there's any thought at this point that she will be the heir.

[A]

No, I think we'll see that Aldarian's the only one who's thinking that.

[B]

Absolutely.

[A]

They don't think that. But they do realize, even if she's not going to be the heir, she's still the daughter of the king's heir. She's going to be the daughter of the king. So she's going to be a very important person.

[B]

And the people don't know her. They have never seen her.

[A]

No, she's being kept in isolation. I think there's also a sense, because, come on, the council knows exactly who Eldarion is. They know that he has mistreated her. They know that he has gone off over and over and over. So they have to suspect that there is a likelihood that Ankalame is being raised to despise or ignore or reject her father.

[B]

Yeah, they're not stupid. There must be something like that in their mind.

[A]

They're just guessing it, of course, at this point, but it's a pretty reasonable speculation for them, I would say. So, yeah.

[B]

Yes, yes.

[A]

Now, this of course leads us to a sidebar on the council, but we're going to put that sidebar in the postscript for the episode. It is the first time we've seen it mentioned, so, you know, if it comes back, we'll talk about a little bit, but for now, check it out in the postscript. All right. So in the meantime, setting aside what we talk about with the council, her need for the king's favor drives her to concede. So when Eldarion rides back up to the White House with Henderk and Calamay is standing there on the porch next.

[B]

To Arendus, the position of the council and her need for the King's favor drive Arendus to conceit. And so when Eldarion rides back up to the White House with Hendrik and Calumet is standing on the porch next to Arendes and she's modeling her mother's behavior. She is remote, standing stiff, making him no courtesy.

[A]

Oh, that's interesting. I'm assuming that's just like, you know, she's not doing any sort of bow, curtsy to him. Right. She's not going to acknowledge him as is the king's heir. She doesn't know that it's the king's heir. That's what's so interesting here. In fact, though, she's a bit defiant. Really? I like this. She's a nine year old girl who's just been woken up. Who are you and why did you wake me up? Why did you have me awakened so early? She's nine. She was four when he left. This is where we come back to the conversation that we had earlier this episode when she was 7. Is she at this moment genuinely unaware of who he is, or is she playing games? And if so, on her own or at her mom's leading.

[B]

Oh, really great questions. I mean, if she was 2 when he left, maybe this would be honest. But 4? I think the thing is that she would remember him as being, okay, I have a father. Would you recognize his face? Is a whole different ballgame.

[A]

That is a whole different ballgame. Right, right. Especially if, you know, let's say he was. Well, no, I was say, they're all clean shaven. Never mind. I was about to say, especially if he'd grown a beard, but I forgot he's the line of Elros. So he's not got any facial hair. Never could. But yeah, I mean, would she remember his appearance?

[B]

I don't think so. I'm assuming that Arendes has said, okay, you need to get up and stand on these steps because your father's here, rather than get up and come and stand with me.

[A]

Did she say your father's here?

[B]

It's so hard to predict what she would have said here.

[A]

I need you to come with me.

[B]

Yeah, it would be kind of ridiculous not to say, okay, you need to get up out of bed and here's why.

[A]

There's somebody from the capital, somebody from the king who's here and he needs to talk to you. Yeah, I mean, remember what she'd said earlier, you know? Yeah. Your father was the Lord Eldarion. I mean, part of me thinks she didn't say anything to Ankalame other than, I need you to come with me. There's an important person outside who needs to speak with you. And I think in that sense she's waiting to see how does he react? Does he say, it is good to see you again, daughter. I see that your mother has raised you well in my absence.

[B]

You've grown.

[A]

You've grown. I've missed you. I'm sorry I've been gone. Of course. Things, Things he'd never say for 500. Alex.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Yeah, I, I, she is somebody who, and I'm gonna, I'm gonna say this because she's so damaged and calumet. It's not beyond her to play games. Even if she did know, it isn't even at 9, I think she would be capable of that because of who she's grown up modeling her behavior after. So she could certainly manipulate this and know full well, oh, this is my dad. I'm just going to pretend I don't know him and see how he responds. But I tend to think that's more likely than not, that she simply doesn't know because she hasn't been told. And she's. This is sadly, deeply, sadly genuine. This is awful, isn't it? I mean, no matter what it is, it's awful because if she is playing games at her mother's request or on her own, at her own initiative, that's also bad because it's just showing the damage that's been done.

[B]

But I don't think Arendus would request her to play these games. I don't think Arendus would actually do that.

[A]

I hope not. But I could see her saying. Remember when we talked about your father? He's out there. I need you to be as cold to him as I am. He's abandoned us, you know. I'll tell you, that's not an uncommon thing for divorced parents to do.

[B]

Oh, my goodness. This is terrible.

[A]

It is terrible. It is terrible. Aldarian. Now, he may need to keep a stern face to keep playing games with horrendous. Let's face it, that's exactly what he's doing. Because, as we see later, she's upset. Partly because he ignored her in front of the daughter. He doesn't say anything to her in front of Ankalame. So he's got this, you know, stern exterior, but inside he is happy. Happy. What he sees in Ancalome is himself, defiant, argumentative, a little stubborn. And he sees this in not just like, oh, I see myself in her. I see myself in her and not her mom.

[B]

Again, gross. This is all gross.

[A]

Petty. Rather than a Verendus, you know, like, ah, so.

[B]

So again, he can claim her as his.

[A]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

[B]

She's mine. She's my daughter. She might look like her mother, but she's just like me.

[A]

That's right, you.

[B]

Even worse. I think the way in which he speaks to her is so distancing. He responds as though he's not who he is.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

He doesn't say, I'm Aldarion, your dad, or anything else that she might identify him with.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Instead, he tells her that she is the daughter of the king's heir. Heir. And will then be his heir as well in the future. It's like he's just made that decision.

[A]

Yeah, that's the thing. Like, I feel like this is his turning point. This is the way he's going to leverage and Calumet and. Yeah, I mean, the law is clear at this point, Right. Only a son can be the king's heir. It's Agnatic prime Mageniture. It's the law of the land. It's been that way for, you know, over 900 years, since the kingdom was established. It's another 10 years before Eldarion, after he becomes king, changes the law to allow the eldest child to take the scepter, regardless of gender. So I think this is the very moment that we see this becoming his plan.

[B]

Because he looks at Ancalime and he sees someone who is like himself. This is the problem. Poor Ancalame, I think, has inherited all the worst features of both parents.

[A]

Yeah, yeah.

[B]

You know, the coldness, the stubbornness, the self centeredness, as we'll see later on.

[A]

Oh, yeah, very much all of the.

[B]

Terrible things, because she is, again, a very, very damaged individual.

[A]

The generational trauma here is off the charts.

[B]

Yeah, yeah. So, I mean, I don't know what to say about how Eldarion is behaving at this moment, because it's just so.

[A]

He doesn't identify himself, he doesn't say who. You knew me once. But no matter. What do you mean, no matter? You're her dad.

[B]

I know. Right. And then in a bit, that might have been a bit scary for a nine year old child to hear. You will not always dwell here, frankly.

[A]

Sounds like a threat.

[B]

Well, it will be to Erendis.

[A]

Oh, it's very much that's how she will hear it. And it's directed towards Erendis 100%.

[B]

Yes, it is. This is just nasty, actually.

[A]

It's petty, it's ugly, it's manipulative. And once again, he. If this is all games, this is all games. Because I'm sure in Eldarion's mind, he's like, wait a minute, she doesn't say, hi, dad. Does she not know that I'm her dad? Oh, that means Horrendous hasn't told her. So I have to play along with that. But in the meantime, I'm going to manipulate. I'm not going to say I'm your dad, but I'll tell you, Horrendous how this is going to go.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

This is all just game playing. And it's. Once again, I just come back to sort of the meta of this, which is. Man, Tolkien can write a story.

[B]

Oh, yes.

[A]

I mean, these characters are fantastically awful.

[B]

Because we're both so wound up by them.

[A]

I know they're fictional characters and I'm angry at Eldarion and I'm angry at Horrendous.

[B]

Yeah. Because here you have two adults playing tennis and Ancalame is the ball.

[A]

Yeah, yeah, she absolutely is.

[B]

There's just nothing worse a parent can do than to play a game. And the person who's being battered around is the child. That is just unacceptable to the end.

[A]

Thousand percent.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And they're both doing it right now.

[B]

They. Oh, no, they both definitely are. But of course, as we will talk about in a moment, Aldaran is the one with the upper hand. Yeah, he'll always have the upper hand.

[A]

King's heir. Yeah.

[B]

Yeah. So finally, he tells Ancalame to go back to bed if she wants.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Because he's in a hurry to see the king, not his dad. Because he's still not telling her.

[A]

Because if he says, I'm in a hurry to go see my father, the king, well, then that reveals his own identity. So once again, that would, you know, change the rules of the game. So he's continuing that facade. By the way, the king is her grandfather. It would be nice. I'm going off to see your grandfather. He could even say that and still maintain the facade. I'm going out to see the king, your grandfather, without saying I'm that intervening generation. But he doesn't even do that.

[B]

No. Because the game at this moment is more fun.

[A]

Yeah. And it's all about getting Orendis wound up.

[B]

It is. He feels entitled to do this. He feels that he should behave in this way because he's been treated so badly, that this is how he's going to respond to that. And he's going to twist the knife and show Erendis who's actually in charge.

[A]

Exactly what this is. That is a twist of the knife, 1,000%. So we get to the last paragraph of the reading, and I have to say, from my perspective, this might be the saddest part. Not the very initial part. Right. Where Irendis watches him head off. She knows that he has just lied to their daughter. Right. He's not in a hurry to see the kids king, or he'd be writing to Hermenelas. Instead, he's writing to Haier Astorni, where Halatan is Lord. Wrong direction.

[B]

Yeah. Why lie in that way? It's just. Ugh, it sucks. And. And she. This, I think, is where for a while now, we haven't seen this level of emotion.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

In horrendous. But she weeps.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And because she's a complicated human being, it's from a whole mixture of emotions.

[A]

Oh, yeah.

[B]

Sadness. And also, possibly at this point, primarily anger. But you know what? Also maybe fear. Because. Oh, yeah, she knows what Aldarion is capable of.

[A]

And Calumet is going to be taken from me. Yeah.

[B]

Yeah. Yep. And this is what is so sad. Because Aldarion could have changed the entire outcome of this brief overnight visit just by holding out a hand and apologizing just a word or two. She was looking for him to show maybe a little regret, a little sorrow for having been gone. And she knew that show something.

[A]

I mean, sure, she'd have rebuked him. She'd have given him some grief, which he would have deserved. But then she's extended pardon if asked. She would have forgiven him. She knows this is what we were talking about. We're like, you know, what was she thinking when the horn blew? But then after that, this is the part that she got to shut off, which was, how do I respond if he asks for forgiveness? But she had played that out in her head long before he'd ever come back.

[B]

Oh, yeah, you can imagine she's rehearsed that conversation.

[A]

I'd rebuke him. But then I'm going to forgive him if he asks. This is something that for three years has probably been running through her head. And instead. And this is what makes her weep out of anger. It's what makes me so. It just hit so hard. It's the victim blaming. He came in like she was the one who'd done something wrong. Not ever even mentioning the fact that he asked for two years and took five. And then. And then he plays the game, right? He ignores her in front of their daughter. Like you don't like the fact that I refer to her as my daughter. But then you referred to as your daughter. You have a chance here to say our daughter. Instead. You're going to use our daughter as a pawn and ignore me like I'm. I'm her mother. You made her with me. You know, this is just. This is awful.

[B]

It's so awful. It really is. What do you think that she would be feeling in this moment, at this point in the story?

[A]

Overwhelmed.

[B]

Yeah, lost.

[A]

Yeah, lost. Lost is good. Regret, maybe even at just the fact that. That she couldn't stop loving him. I. I think there's a. A part of her that wishes, obviously, that none of this had ever happened.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

You know, I'm not sure exactly what Nunes words are that she thinks of. I. I think you've got some passages that you're looking at that it might have been it. But part of me goes back to the whole idea of you're not going to so easily cast this love for the. For him that you have out of your heart. Part of me thinks that she wishes she could have.

[B]

Yeah, I think you're right that some of the words of Nuneth that she might be thinking of would be something like when Nunes says, ships, he may love my daughter, for those are made by men's minds and hands. But I think that it is not the winds or the great waters that so burn his heart, nor yet the sight of strange lands, but some heat in his mind or Some dream that pursues him.

[A]

That makes sense.

[B]

And this casts Aeldarion in a different light for her. I mean, no longer can she tame him. Those ideas that she once had of utterly defeat the sea or be defeated utterly, those are long gone.

[A]

Yeah. She's been defeated. Yeah.

[B]

Yeah, she has. Instead, she sees the danger in him now. He could take everything from her, especially.

[A]

Once he becomes the king.

[B]

Yeah. There's no stopping him.

[A]

And the short line after is. Is interesting. And I. I want to get your thought on this. She gets up, turns away from the window. We read that she is thinking of her wrongs. What do you think this means? What wrongs? Is she pondering the wrongs that have.

[B]

Been done to her? I think all the things from the beginning.

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

I don't think she's thinking of the things that she has necessarily done wrong. I think she's thinking of all the bad things that have been done to her. And these could go back to childhood.

[A]

Yeah. I was thinking of it in the more literal sense of thinking of her mistakes. Right. Like forgiving him early on when she shouldn't have. Agreeing to be betrothed, not ending the betrothal when he sailed off again, still agreeing to go forward and marry him. That's what I was thinking. But I like the way you read that. That she's thinking of her wrongs.

[B]

Well, both of those are possible.

[A]

Right.

[B]

Because one of the great things about Tolkien's text is often that there are many, many layers. He's like an onion. So many layers.

[A]

Yeah. It's vague on purpose.

[B]

Yeah, it is. Because we are almost asked, as the reader, to ponder that.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

What could it mean if we read it this way? And how does it change if we read it that way?

[A]

Well, then we end with her decision. And I certainly understand this to be even more perilous than she believes Eldarion to be be. This is where she becomes determined. She is now steel, hard to break. And that determination stands in the face of who he is now as the king's heir, very powerful. But even when he becomes king, what do you make of that?

[B]

I can understand why she makes this decision. She has to stand strong because she could just give up now. But that's not horrendous. That's not who she is. She's always had a bit of a spine of steel, actually.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

But I think this decision is because she foresees the possibility of him taking absolutely everything away from her.

[A]

This is now defense.

[B]

Yes. Now it's going to be all about defending what she holds and keeping it. And to do that, she is going to have to be unbreakable, even when he becomes king, which, I mean, that could be a long time in the future. What she, of course, would be hoping it should be. She would be probably hoping that Ankalame would be a grown woman by then.

[A]

Yeah. And then she gets to make her own decisions. She doesn't have to do anything about it.

[B]

Exactly.

[A]

Yeah. And, you know, we'll see that. Oh, boy. It should be a long time from now. But it won't be.

[B]

Yep, but it won't be. And that's going to turn everything upside down.

[A]

Indeed. You knew me once, Lady Ancalame, but no matter. Today I am but a messenger from Barlaman to remind you that you have mail.

[B]

I heard the chime from the days when that was a thing.

[A]

You've got mail. So what does Barlon have for us tonight?

[B]

Okay, so we have a question from Jerry S. In Seattle, who asks, we are told in Carpenter's biography of Tolkien how much he enjoyed being an Oxford professor and all of the benefits that came with that position. But Carpenter also describes Edith feeling unsatisfied and unfulfilled as the wife of a professor. Can you speculate on whether or not the tale of Aldarion and Arendis is in part inspired by this particular aspect of the professor's relationship with his wife? Obviously, that would be as far as the comparison goes, since they spent the rest of their lives together. But that seems an interesting explanation as to why this particular story seems to have the most nuanced romantic relationship in his legendarium. And, oh, boy, is the word nuanced doing a lot of heavy lifting.

[A]

Boy, is it? I don't know.

[B]

What do you think of that, Alan?

[A]

I thought that was an interesting observation. I hadn't thought about that at all. There's obviously some vast differences, right? I mean, Tolkien's own view on marriage and the obligations that one takes upon oneself when one gets married. Very, very different to what he's given to Eldarion, let alone horrendous, for that matter. But certainly there was this sense of, he's got a part of his life. Right. This other half thing, I'm thinking about that passage we read in today's episode where he really did isolate Edith from that part of his life. Yes, he did a very clearly intentionally. So much so that when C.S. lewis gets married to Joy and kind of tries to bring her into the circle, he has nothing to do with that. Like, no, that's your home life. This is your professional Oxford life. And I can certainly see that playing a role. This whole idea of the two halves and the drive or the desire to pour oneself into the one and not the other, or into the one, perhaps at the expense of the other.

[B]

That would give him a heck of a lot more insight than Eldarion has.

[A]

Well, yeah, I mean, that's the thing.

[B]

And again, with the low bar.

[A]

I was going to say that's a very, very low bar indeed. It is. Interesting. That's a very good question from Jerry. I don't know that I would say it's inspired by that in any way so much as it's just part of the leaf mold. You know, everything that an author writes is going to be in some way connected to or influenced by his real life experiences. Tolkien writes in the prologue to the Lord of the Rings, so it's impossible for it not to have played a role. But I also don't know where and when the origins of Eldarion and Arendus really came. Like, we know what Christopher has written in terms of when these texts were dated, but there's nothing that suggests this might not have gone back further. But I don't know that it would have gone back far enough to say there's no connection. I suspect that by the time he wrote this, he's definitely married and.

[B]

Oh, yes, yes. No, absolutely.

[A]

Yeah. This wasn't like 1917 writing in the trenches.

[B]

Yeah, no, no, we're way, way past that. But I'm always hesitant to stick equal signs when it comes to text and Tolkien's life. You're right. The leaf mold, the bones of the soup, all of those wonderful metaphors that we can use are always going to be there.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

But I would really be hesitant to say Eldarion and Arendys equal, Tolkien and.

[A]

Edith, in any way, even in one angle or perspective.

[B]

Yeah, I mean, there's definitely something to be said about the fact that Edith was quite isolated in Oxford. She preferred it in Leeds. She had more friends up in Leeds. She didn't have really much of a friendship circle down in Oxford. And of course, while they were in Oxford, she also stopped going to church. All sorts of things there that are, you know, very isolating for her.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Which did not stop Tolkien from continuing to have his pints with his mates and his inklings meetings and cozy dinners and things like that away from home. Yeah. But I think into every marriage there comes strife is also correct.

[A]

I don't know what you mean.

[B]

Oh, sure. I'll just ask your wife one day.

[A]

I don't think that story's gonna hold water. Yeah.

[B]

So I don't think it's that difficult to understand how a married man could draw upon some tensions to kind of fill in parts of the story. But Aldarion and Arendis are extreme.

[A]

They are. In fact, as you said that, I began to wonder whether he might have been inspired by other marriages of professors that he would have known who maybe were more extreme. You know, because one of the things we read about, and I think this is actually something we read about more in Humphrey Carpenter's book the Inklings, not just his biography on Tolkien, is that the standard had only recently changed in terms of Oxford dons being married. They used to. To the expectation was that they would be single because they had to devote everything to this. And so those who were buried were in some ways the exception rather than the norm. And so I can imagine him looking at some of those examples and thinking that. But, yeah, certainly not going to put that equal sign. But it is interesting to think about.

[B]

Yes, yes, it is. It's a fascinating question and I can see where the question came from.

[A]

Absolutely. Absolutely. 100%. Well, folks, thank you for joining us for another very long episode of the Prancing Pony Podcast. Please come back next week when Manel d' or opens the mail and makes a momentous decision.

[B]

This is going to make everything better. Right? Right. Right. Okay.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Alan and I want to thank the members of Team PPP editor Jordan Reynolds Barliman, Becca Davis, social media manager Casey Hilsey event and Patreon community coordinator Katie McKenzie Jenner, graphic artist Megan Collins, video editor Jonathan Lacens, who's helping us get episodes up on YouTube and our website guru, Phil Dean.

[A]

Please take a minute to check out the prancingponypodcast.com that's where you'll find show notes, outtakes, Prancing Pony ponderings. You'll also find information on the moot, which is coming up here in December. Woohoo. Also, we are changing vendors for our merch at the moment, but our online storefront should be back soon, probably even up. By the time you hear this, you can get all sorts of cool PPP merch, including the beautiful chapter art that Megan has been creating for us for more than three seasons now.

[B]

And we're all about the books here at the Prancing Pony Podcast, so be sure to also visit our library page. We try to make sure that any book we've mentioned on the show is linked there for you to purchase. We do get a small amount of compensation when you make your purchase. So thank you for that.

[A]

And we also want to thank our patrons at the Kiridan's contribution tier. I'll start with Demay and Alaska, Chad in Texas, Lance in New Jersey, Joseph in Michigan, Kathy from North Carolina, Brian in the uk, Jerry from Washington, Irwin from the Netherlands, Ben in Minnesota, Anthony in Texas, Zaksu in Illinois, Joshua in Massachusetts, Lucy in Texas, Erica in Texas, Vivian in California and James in Massachusetts.

[B]

There's also Ann in Kentucky, Sean in New Jersey, Mason in California, Maureen from Massachusetts, Olivia in London, Robert in Arizona, Nick in Wisconsin, Lewis in South Carolina, Thomas in Germany, Craig in California, Kevin in Massachusetts, Bruce in California, Joe in Maryland, Scott in California, Jeffrey in Michigan, and Paul in Colorado. Thank you all so very much for your support indeed.

[A]

Thank you.

[B]

Now make sure you don't miss any episodes of the Prancing Pony Podcast. Subscribe now through Spotify, Apple Podcasts, Amazon Music, or your favorite podcast app.

[A]

One last thing. As always, don't forget to send your thoughts, comments, and most of all, your court ordered visitation agreements.

[B]

Oh dear.

[A]

To bartleman@the prancingponypodcast.com and no, I really don't want those.

[B]

Oh no. Barliman does have a lot of mail to sort through though, so we will try to get to you just as soon as we're able.

[A]

As always, though, this has been far too short a time, though that's a stretch in this episode to spend among such excellent and admirable listeners.

[B]

But until next time, however, farewell folks.