The Prancing Pony Podcast

Episode 391 – By Grabthar’s Hammer, What a Book!
Date: November 23, 2025
Host(s): Alan Sisto & Sara
Guest: Professor Michael D.C. Drout
Topic: A deep-dive into Dr. Drout's new book, The Tower and the Ruin, and Tolkien's unique literary artistry

Episode Overview

This episode steps away from the ongoing Aldarion & Erendis series to celebrate the release of The Tower and the Ruin by esteemed Tolkien scholar Michael D.C. Drout. The conversation explores what makes Tolkien's work singular among 20th-century literature, diving into themes like textuality, the beauty found in tragedy, the pleasures of discovering hidden patterns, and the emotional heft of Tolkien's legendarium. Drout, Alan, and Sara blend scholarly insight with humor and warmth, appealing to newcomers and Tolkien aficionados alike.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. The Genesis and Process of Writing The Tower and the Ruin

[05:18–12:44]

• Genesis of the Book:

  • The book's central question: What makes Tolkien qualitatively different from his peers?

  • Drout describes the struggle to fit his ideas into a traditional mold (“chapter on the Hobbit, chapter on Lord of the Rings…”) versus finding what he really wanted to say.

  • Key moment: Writing a New York Times op-ed (“Middle-earth is not a Marvel Cinematic Universe... It’s not just a sandbox”) clarified his argument.

    “I was basically like, did anyone ever realize how weird it is that people reread this book 20, 30, 50 times? ... I'm a literature professor. There's no other literature that acts that way.”
    — Drout [07:37]

• Writing Process:

  • Distinct from editing volumes or scholarly essays—this required a sustained, original through-argument.
  • The Signum University author circle provided ongoing feedback; former students helped Drout recall brilliant ideas from classroom discussions.

2. Tolkien’s “Grain of the Text”: Contradictions, Gaps, and Organic Realism

[13:48–26:43]

• Pleasures of Discovery:

  • Alan asks for favorite “finds”; Drout’s is pattern recognition—e.g., the parallel arcs of Denethor and Éowyn.
  • Both characters intend suicide, but their means reflect deep cultural character of Gondor (despair and destruction) and Rohan (blaze of glory, action).

• Contradictions as a Byproduct of Composition:

  • Example: Aragorn’s PTSD-like demeanor at Bree fits “Trotter the Hobbit” (his initial character), but not the later Aragorn. It’s left unchanged, creating a subtle realism akin to historical texts patched together from fragments.

  • Unintentional gaps give the story the “grain of the wood”—unique, imperfect, but more alive.

    “Plastic has no grain, but wood does… Even if that means that there’s some imperfections and knots and things that don’t work, we actually—we love that about it.”
    — Drout [25:45]

• Intentional Subtleties:

  • Italicized Bilbo’s birthday speech: symbolic of a “transcribed document” in the narrative, suggesting a deep fictional archive.

3. Inventive Synthesis & Intertextuality

[35:27–51:15]

• Inventive Synthesis:

  • Tolkien, faced with lost fragments of medieval literature (“Erminlaf” in Beowulf, “dark elves” in Norse myth), wouldn’t just shrug—he’d invent a plausible backstory fitting all surviving evidence.

  • Example: Aegnor, the “Dark Elf” in the Silmarillion, harmonizes contradictory old sources.

    “Tolkien filled in that gap... He would take the whole Ale story, and you can understand how Snorri Sturluson would’ve said there are light elves, dark elves, and dwarves, because they’re three different things.”
    — Drout [40:44]

• Not “A Mythology for England”:

  • Drout argues Tolkien’s real aim was to give modern readers the effects that medieval literature had on contemporary readers—a “ruin” sense of loss, age, and partial recovery.
  • Reading Beowulf in OE or a good translation, you experience “this text is a ruin... both beautiful and destroyed.”

• The Power of Frame Narratives:

  • Tolkien’s frame narratives evolved, with the most effective often being subtle or unconscious (e.g., the Hobbit’s “intrusive narrator”).

    “That narrator is an adult telling a story to a child... That frame enables all the other parts... the sweetness, the oddities, the talking purse.”
    — Drout [48:36]

4. Teaching Tolkien & Textual Layers

[51:17–63:35]

• Teaching the Council of Elrond:

  • Drout describes interactive class exercises (students role-play council stakeholders) to bring out the layered perspectives and implied geopolitics.
  • His method fosters active discovery, echoing how Tolkien’s text rewards re-immersion and careful reading.

• Heterotextuality:

  • Tolkien creates the impression that The Lord of the Rings is a compilation from many different texts/authors/layers (versus mere multi-vocality or single-author fiction).

  • Drafts, poems, songs, and inserted documents layer on “archival reality.”

    “The changes in style don’t match up so much to changes in speaker... you can find these different textual bits... It gives a sense of being true in a different way. Not true in terms of realism, but true in terms of textuality.”
    — Drout [62:36]

• Broken, Traditional, and Pseudo-References:

  • Medieval texts leave allusions whose referents are lost to time (“Wade’s Boat”); Tolkien mimics this with references to the Silmarillion, making even fake references feel authentic.

    “All but two of the seemingly pseudo references are actually just broken... they were references to the Silmarillion... He intended at one point to publish the Silmarillion first so everyone would understand.”
    — Drout [67:51]

5. Least-Knowledgeable Character Focalization & Immersion

[74:47–82:12]

• Focalization:

  • Fantasy often uses “outsider” protagonists; Tolkien meticulously chooses the POV character who knows the least, drawing in both explanation and emotional relatability at the point the reader needs it.

    “You as a reader actually want more, not less... You get the information that you as a reader need and you do it at the same time that the character gets it. So it’s naturalized.”
    — Drout [80:41]

• Subtle Shifts and Exceptions:

  • Gimli’s POV when the Hobbits aren’t present; even the fox scene exists to preserve this rule. Gollum’s Cirith Ungol scene is a rare necessity-driven break.

    “I just, the more I studied Tolkien, the more amazed by his artistry I became... Rather than... ‘oh well, this was—he made a mistake here...’”
    — Drout [88:03]

6. The Power of Reading Aloud

[91:10–100:25]

• Aural Craftsmanship:

  • Tolkien reads beautifully aloud; his turn-taking and dialogue cues are clear, unlike many contemporaries (cf. Drout’s struggles with reading Dune).

  • Reading aloud enhances focus—no skimming over landscape or poetry—and amplifies the immersion in Tolkien’s world.

  • Landscape descriptions, far from tedious, deepen the reader’s feeling for Middle-earth and reflect Tolkien’s ecological sensibility.

    “When you have to read them out loud, you realize... how much of The Lord of the Rings is landscape description? That never gets more boring. ...How does he do that?”
    — Drout [97:13]

7. Tragedy, Beauty, and Hope in Tolkien’s Legendarium

[100:40–135:35]

• Consolation in Tragedy:

  • Silmarillion’s relentless loss; yet Drout argues the lingering triumph is not only “valor,” but beauty (“the beauty in sadness”).
  • The tale is victorious if it is sung—preservation through memory and art itself is a victory.

• Heimweh & Blessed Sorrow:

  • Drout introduces the German “Heimweh” (homesickness so powerful it was once considered fatal), distinct from mere nostalgia.

  • The Lord of the Rings transforms this pain; though Frodo is broken and must leave, there is a kind of integration, hope, and healing in the sadness:

    “It’s not a consolation... It takes the formless, horrible grief... and then the Lord of the Rings, you get a shape for it. ...And then you get... hope that there will be something better.”
    — Drout [129:19]

    “In Tolkien’s works, we find beauty rising out of catastrophe. A light springs from the shadows... we find hope.”
    — Sara, reading Drout’s conclusion [126:49]

• Moral Cost and Refusal to Dominate:

  • Frodo’s use of the Ring on Gollum—he is forced into a wrong he cannot avoid, and pays for it.

  • True evil (Morgoth, Sauron) is the will to dominate others. Aragorn avoids domination; the Shire is the vision of unforced natural harmony.

  • Tolkien’s genius is showing that sacrifice and brokenness may save the world, but at individual cost.

    “The overall... morality... is that it is always wrong to dominate other wills...”
    — Drout [116:54]

• Tradition, Memory, Ruin, and Lasting Hope:

  • That Húrin’s deeds are still “sung” is proof he won, providing a tangible, enduring hope.

    “If Morgoth had won, you wouldn’t have heard... And so, and, and that’s like... That’s both... The ruin is both... It’s so frustrating, fragile... But it’s still there.”
    — Drout [123:44]

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On reading Tolkien repeatedly:

  “There’s no other literature that acts that way. And so I started like, okay, what is it about it?” — Drout [07:37]

• On textual “grain”:

  “Plastic has no grain, but wood does. ...We love that about it.” — Drout [25:45]

• On literary criticism:

  “We do all this weird effort to, like, create an imaginary ideal reader… That’s all just fake. …That was the big, freeing bit – which is like, you know what? I’m not faking anything. I’m the reader.” — Drout [08:18]

• On beauty in tragedy:

  “What I get out of it is the beauty in sadness and beauty out of catastrophe…and tragedy…what comes out of it is, is the beauty of the images…” — Drout [104:57]

• On “Heimweh” and blessed sorrow:

  “That’s the magic of The Lord of the Rings…with all the sadness and sorrow and loss…we do feel something. We don’t feel negative…because…it’s now integrated…it’s all part of him…” — Drout [112:41]

• Final words of hope from the book:

  “In Tolkien’s works, we find beauty rising out of catastrophe. A light springs from the shadows. …We find hope.” — Drout (read by Sara) [126:49]

Important Timestamps

• Intro & Guest Welcome: [03:00–04:43]
• Book Genesis & Approach: [05:18–12:44]
• Pleasures of Pattern Recognition: [14:38–20:16]
• Contradictions & the “Grain” metaphor: [21:01–26:43]
• Inventive Synthesis Examples: [36:12–41:55]
• Frame Narratives & The Hobbit’s Narrator: [46:42–51:15]
• Teaching the Council of Elrond: [51:17–56:07]
• Heterotextuality & Textual Layers: [57:53–63:35]
• Broken and Pseudo-References: [63:35–69:47]
• Beauty, Tragedy, and Hope: [100:40–135:35]
• Poignant Closing Quote: [126:49]

Tone & Style

• Language:
  Thoughtful, witty, sometimes self-deprecating (referring to bookencyclopedia as a “deadly weapon”; running in-jokes about the “talking fox” or “Effing Elves”).
• Atmosphere:
  Collegial, pub-room banter with sharp insight; respectful of Tolkien yet unafraid to poke fun or to pry into deeper, even painful truths.

For Listeners Who Haven’t Heard the Episode

This conversation isn’t only for Tolkien scholars. Whether you love Tolkien’s work for its beauty, its emotional resonance, or its “sense of textual history,” this episode will deepen your appreciation for both Middle-earth and for the craft behind it. Drout and the hosts explore not only what makes Tolkien singular, but why returning to his stories is an experience, not mere reading—a source of hope that, like a story that is sung, endures beyond the shadow.

Highly recommended: Have a cup of tea, perhaps a Prancing Pony mug, and settle in for a masterclass in both Tolkien studies and why stories matter.