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- [00:00]
A
Folks, earlier this year I got to introduce you to the softest and coziest sponsor we've had here at the ppp. Lola Blankets was really impressed when they sent me mine. It felt soft and stretchy and super cozy. In fact, I've decided I'm going to give a few of these as holiday gifts. They're luxurious and they're perfect for those folks in your life that really enjoy being cozy. Lola Blankets are blankets done right too. They feel like fur, but really it's an ultra soft luxury vegan faux fur with a four way stretch. They're machine washable, double hemmed and they stay flawless with no pilling or shedding even after repeated washes. Their blankets are already big, but if you want massive, Lola calls their extra large blankets the biggest blankets on the Internet and at seven and a half feet long I think they might be right. They've got matching pillows too so you can save when you bundle. They also have weighted blankets for those calming vibes, but I have to tell you the regular blankets are already nice and heavy to begin with. Perfectly personal, beautiful blankets make for great gifting. Cozy, thoughtful, honestly perfect gifts, especially for that one person that's otherwise impossible to shop for. So give the gift of softness this holiday season with Lola Blankets for a limited time our listeners are getting a huge 40% off their entire order at Lola blankets.com by using code pony at checkout. Just head to lolablankets.com that's L O L A blankets.com and use code pony for 40% off. Now after you purchase they'll ask you where you heard about them. So please support our show and tell them we sent you. Folks, we've talked on this show before about the importance of mental health. I've even talked about how therapy has helped me personally. It's helped me grow and manage my stress more effectively. And while telehealth has made taking care of your mental health a bit more accessible, the process is still really hard. Finding the right therapist, getting sessions scheduled around your life, and of course the high cost. And that's where RULA comes in. Rula makes quality mental health care easy and affordable. They accept most insurance plans with average co pays of only $15 a session. Rula is a great way to access carefully vetted providers. You answer a few questions and get matched with one of their more than 15,000 licensed therap and psychiatrists across the country and schedule your session often as soon as the next day. They are in network for most insurance plans and they are committed to helping you reach your therapy goals. So go to rula.com pony to get started today. That's R U L A.com pony for quality therapy covered by insurance. Thousands have already trusted RULA to support them on their journey toward improved mental health and and overall well being. Head on over to rula.com pony to get started today. After you sign up, they'll ask you where you heard about them. Please support our show and tell them that we sent you. Go to r u l a.com pony and take the first step towards better mental health today. You deserve quality care from someone who cares. Folks, you might remember earlier this year when I got to tell you about a new Middle Earth sponsor here at the Prancing Pony Podcast on osha. As the holidays and gift giving times approach, I want to remind you about this small family company based in Scotland. They've created beautiful designs that faithfully capture the feel of the Lord of the Rings and the Hobbit. OSHA's Middle Earth collection is a genuine passion project for them and you're definitely going to find something you want either for yourself or a loved one. Or maybe both. They're woven pieces, things like blankets, throws, scarves. They're all made locally from responsibly sourced yarns and their homeware. Things like mugs and tea towels and tote bags. Really perfect for gifts or for your own home. I use my mugs from them all the time. The Realm of Middle Earth and Ancients of Gondor. If you want to check out those Designs, so visit oshaslings.com that's O S C H A slings.com yeah, they started out as a baby carrier company, hence the slings. So if you're a new or expecting parent, yes, they have Lord of the Rings themed slings and baby wraps too. Small family business faithfully captured Middle Earth designs, ethically made products and free international shipping. And one more thing, OSHA knows that with the tariff changes and the rules about de minimis exceptions and all of that, folks are concerned about ordering from overseas. All of their shipments will come with customs fees and duties paid upfront. No extra fees for you. What you see at checkout is all you'll pay. Plus there's 10% off for new customers with Code Pony at checkout. So visit oshaslings.com that's O S C H A slings.com and use code pony to get 10% off your first order here at the holidays.
- [05:07]
Good evening little masters and welcome to episode 392 of the Prancing Pony podcast where I always prefer to watch people dancing and partying from the sidelines with us.
- [05:17]
B
Smile, and if anyone notices you, you suddenly become wrathful and bitter. Right?
- [05:21]
A
Yeah. Sounds like a junior high dance, actually.
- [05:23]
B
Yeah, yeah, yeah. I can just see it from here, folks. Pull up a bench in the common room and join us. I'm Sara Brown, the shield maiden of Rohan, and I'm here with the man of the west who somehow meets Aldarion's criteria to be a sailor, Alan Sisto.
- [05:37]
A
Old as the hills and with no other hope in life, right?
- [05:40]
B
I was thinking of that.
- [05:41]
A
Yeah. Brutal. Well, folks, join us as Maneldor opens the mail and changes Numenorean history as we return to unfinished for our 8th of 10 episodes on Eldarion and Arendus.
- [05:53]
B
It's. It's not getting any cheerier, is it, Alan?
- [05:55]
A
Oh, no, no. The rom com is definitely. The vibes are gone for the rom com.
- [06:00]
B
Yeah, it's calm, but it ain't no rom. Folks. No matter whether you came to the Middle Earth through the books, the films, the TV show, or something else, each of you is welcome here in our common room. The Prancipony Podcast continues in our 10th season of Reading and talking our way through Middle Earth with conversations, digressions, and even some speculation.
- [06:20]
A
And not to mention a few puns and dad jokes here and there. But our purpose is to dive deep into the lore, discussing the story, our favorite characters and themes, Tolkien's inspirations, and a whole lot more.
- [06:33]
B
And while we take the work seriously, the same really can't be said about ourselves. We're just a couple of friends chatting at the pub. And we're glad you've joined us.
- [06:41]
A
And I'm sure you'll be glad you joined as well. But before we get to tonight's chapter discussion, we have a very special guest joining us today.
- [06:53]
Now, you'll recognize him because he's hosted some 20 to 25 episodes with me here on the PPP over the last three seasons.
- [06:59]
B
Yep, he's also known as the obscure Lord of the Rings Facts guy on TikTok, Instagram, and everywhere else in the Tolkien fandom.
- [07:06]
A
That is true. But now you'll know him for the book he's just written, J.R.R. tolkien, the father of fantasy. So, folks, please welcome to his own Kingly gift segments, Don Marshall.
- [07:17]
B
Yay.
- [07:18]
C
Thank you so much for having me. It does truly feel like an out of body experience, being a part of the Kingly gifts portion, having been part of every other part.
- [07:25]
A
It is great, though. Lovely so glad you're here. So first I want you to tell us. I mean, I know the story, but tell everybody else the story. How did this come to be? Not everybody goes from viral TikTok guy to author. So how did this come about?
- [07:40]
C
You know, I'm still trying to work that out myself a little bit, but I was, as you know, Alan, and as listeners may know, I've been doing this for about five years on TikTok and YouTube and Patreon and Instagram and all of these places. But the one thing I didn't have was, was authorship. But I was approached by a company called Adams Media, which is a subset of Simon and Schuster, and they came to me interested in seeing if we could potentially write something that is a, a kind of biography of JRR Tolkien. And naturally I said, oh my God, oh my God, oh my God, oh.
- [08:14]
A
My God, oh my God. Sounds about right.
- [08:17]
C
Ye out for a little while. Wasn't really sure I was even capable of doing something. But then sort of, after many supportive conversations with my wife, called you Alan, as you know, called a lot of my, my Tolkien peers just to kind of get their thoughts on it and decided, yeah, this was, this was the next step in my Tolkien fandom journey.
- [08:39]
A
Super excited about that. So you mentioned just briefly, that it's a biography of sorts. So what is the, the elevator pitch for the book, if you will, what is it about and who's the reader that you're targeting for this?
- [08:51]
C
So the short pitch is it is 100 short stories about Tolkien, whether that is his life, whether that is his legacy. We touch on 100 different factors of the man himself or what he left behind. So, for example, we touch on the times when he was growing up in South Africa, or his time with The Inklings and C.S. lewis, or, you know, his time in World War I. But we very much wanted it to not be the Humphrey Carpenter biography. I wanted to be very clear that we were writing for someone else here. And you asked who we're writing for. And I will always say this, I think this will always be true about me. I'm always writing for 14 year old me. That's just my target audience.
- [09:36]
A
14 year old dawn is your target audience?
- [09:39]
B
Well, it was.
- [09:40]
C
At the end of the day, I want Tolkien to be digestible and accessible to as many people as humanly possible.
- [09:46]
B
Love that.
- [09:46]
C
And I think this book is a really, hopefully a really good way to do it because we tried to make it a little easier to understand and get through.
- [09:56]
A
Okay, so 100 little. It's almost like your TikTok videos, but 100 of them. A little bit.
- [10:01]
C
Yeah. I think that was sort of the idea behind it when we were doing the pitches, you know, playing to my strengths. What am I good at? And what I'm good at is writing little essays and putting them down and making it interesting in one form or another.
- [10:15]
A
Very cool.
- [10:16]
B
So it's a book of some obscure, some not so obscure facts about Tolkien.
- [10:21]
C
I try to go as obscure as I possibly can with, you know, as many primary sources as I can. Some things people may know, like I mentioned, he was born in South Africa, grew up in Great Britain, then there was, you know, the many clubs that he was a part of. He wrote the Lord of the Rings, obviously. I talk about that a lot, but then I try and get into, you know, more of the minute things that he maybe isn't as well known for. His. His deep love of his wife Edith, his. His practical joking side. I do an entire portion on how silly the man was, because he was. He was just very jovial for all of the stories you hear about him.
- [10:57]
B
So what is the most interesting thing you think you found out about him during your research for the book?
- [11:04]
C
I think it was that he was kidnapped as a small baby.
- [11:08]
A
Oh, yeah. Yes.
- [11:11]
C
It's so out of left field. And like, had that gone so horribly wrong, we might not have the Lord of the Rings, but obviously I can, you know, I can give you the quick 5 second elevator pitch.
- [11:23]
B
Of course you can, yeah.
- [11:24]
C
One of the servants that was living at Bank House, the place where Tolkien grew up with his father, mother and brother Hillary, had some servants living in them, and some of them were the children of those servants. And one of the children was enamored with Tolkien's pale skin. And so one night as evening fell, this young child, I think probably like seven or eight years old, scoops young Tolkien up. This little newborn Tolkien walks with him back to his village to show the rest of his villagers, and the villagers say, where did you get this baby?
- [12:00]
A
You're a little too young to have one for yourself. So. Yeah, just a bit.
- [12:03]
C
Yeah. Oh, thankfully, spoiler alert. Tolkien was fine. He gets returned to his.
- [12:11]
Eventually, it. It turns out that there was such goodwill between the family and the. The young child. The young child, when he grows up, names his child after Tolkien and puts the name Mr. Tolkien as his kid's middle name.
- [12:27]
B
Oh, my goodness.
- [12:28]
C
Yeah, yeah. So just these little obscure bits that you, you know, you know, maybe you've heard about one or two things here and There, but really just trying to find those, Those little bits.
- [12:41]
B
I can only imagine just how many of these little bits you must have found while you were doing all your research. So I know from when I've done some writing and other people who've done writing, they always have to go through that process of what they call kill your darlings. Oh, no. Yes. So what did you have to cut that you wish you could have kept in?
- [13:03]
C
I wanted to focus so much more on World War I and I didn't. Alan will know this and I think.
- [13:08]
A
That'S one of your. That's one of your, like, specialty areas of knowledge and interest, isn't it?
- [13:13]
C
Yeah, it's my wheelhouse. It's my hyper fixation. I very much wanted to spend more time on it, but I think there was, there was something about the tone of the book that I couldn't include too much because the further I got into it, the sadder, the more depressing it gets. And, you know, there are poignant moments in my. I'd like to think there are poignant moments in the book when, you know, things get a little bit more sad because sad things happen in his life. But I got to a point myself where I was getting depressed even researching it and thinking, I don't want people to feel this kind of hurt when, you know, I'm reading about how sad he is that his friends are gone and, you know, he doesn't really have a lot of friends when he comes out of the war.
- [13:56]
A
No. Like he says in the introduction to Lord of the Rings that by, by what, 19, 19, 19 20, half of his friends were dead.
- [14:02]
C
Yep, exactly.
- [14:03]
A
Devastating. But yeah, if you're, if you're aiming for 14 year old Don, you want to keep a little bit more upbeat, focus on some of the. You're not going to ignore those things, but you're not going to load the book up with them. That makes sense.
- [14:15]
B
Yeah. You don't want to completely depress your reader, I guess, which I try my best.
- [14:20]
A
Not quite easily done if you look at all the loss that Tolkien went through, of course.
- [14:24]
B
Oh, yeah. I've just been reading about him in 1938 for a lecture I'm doing. And with the death of Evie Gordon, he actually goes into a period of absolute depression and he has to stay home and be in bed for two weeks.
- [14:37]
C
Yeah, yeah. I write about Evie Gordon in the books and I mention how heartbroken he is that he has. Has passed. And, you know, it just seems as though this trend is Tolkien keeps losing friends. One Decade after another, after another, and family members.
- [14:53]
A
I mean, his whole life is just so marked with loss throughout. And I think it's one of the reasons why when we read the Lord of the Rings, or the Silmarillion, for that matter, that sense of loss comes through and impacts us as readers in a really deeply emotional way. You know, he has a unique ability to convey that. But this is an interview about you and your book, not me and my thoughts on Tolkien. So let me ask you this. The title of your book, which is J.R.R. tolkien, the father of Modern fantasy, directly claims this sort of legacy for Tolkien in the fantasy genre. He's the father, therefore it's his legacy. I'm not sure there's anybody who could or would disagree, at least not reasonably so. So I'm curious, though, what would you say might be an unexpected legacy? I mean, we know about things like the Halflings in D and D inspired by the Hobbits. We certainly know about the heavy influence that he's had on the fantasy genre in books as well as films, TV shows, games and more. But what might be a legacy that we might have missed?
- [15:53]
C
Oh, man. Great question. Well, first and foremost, I'd like to mention that I talk extensively about the music and the things that sort of go into the art and the artistic process around everything that sort of happened with Tolkien. The things that you miss, though, I talk a little bit about the peering behind the curtain about, like, how the sausage gets made when it comes to adapting Tolkien. Because adapting Tolkien pre Peter Jackson films was a nightmare and there were so many. And you're even wearing your.
- [16:30]
A
Your Rankin a Bass Hobbit shirt.
- [16:31]
C
Yeah, there we go. So I talk about Rankin and Bass in the book and just sort mention so many of the. The different attempts at adaptations for Lord of the Rings and the Hobbit, because so many people tried and very few of them actually succeeded in a way that, you know, can be marked in terms of history. Like, there are things that just never made it to screen.
- [16:55]
A
Thank goodness, though.
- [16:56]
B
Some of them.
- [16:56]
A
Thank goodness. Oh, sure, sure.
- [16:58]
C
Yeah. Some of them are quite terrible.
- [17:00]
A
If the John Borman script had ever been made.
- [17:02]
C
I talk about the John Borman script.
- [17:03]
A
Only pray that I never saw it.
- [17:05]
C
Yeah, yeah, it's. It's awful.
- [17:07]
A
It's a thing.
- [17:08]
C
No, I mean, it's a thing is being very nice, Alan.
- [17:12]
A
Yeah, I'll leave it there because I actually have, you know, you talk about books. When Sean and I were writing why We Love Middle Earth, my section on adaptations, I had an entire Chapter on adaptations that never got made. So I talk about the Beatles, when I talk about the Borman, when I talk about a few other things. And of course it never got. We had. That was one of my darlings that I had to kill, along with the video games chapter. So those will be in the sequel if we ever write one. Yeah, exactly. But that's a very interesting point. So. So the legacy then is the challenge of adaptation.
- [17:41]
C
Yeah, just him being such a prolific author, creating this enormous world that we can fall into and love and enjoy. But then how that translates into the theater. Right. Why is the stage play three and.
- [17:55]
A
A half hours long?
- [17:56]
C
Right. Why are there so many different movies that never got made? Because they were just. So the budget problems and the adaptations that they were trying to do wasn't concurren with what was actually happening in the books. And just so many things could have worked out so differently. And I think Peter Jackson is, I want to say, incredibly lucky that a lot of these didn't get made.
- [18:20]
B
Do you think there's also a very demanding fandom behind it? Like the people who love Tolkien are very particular about their Tolkien adaptations and how that comes out.
- [18:30]
A
Yes.
- [18:31]
C
I remember very distinctly growing up being on the forums reading about why people were angry that Liv Tyler was being cast as Arwen, that they were upset that she was taking Glorfindel's place in Glorfindel. Exactly. And there were so many, you know, things I think that people took for granted that within an adaptation you have to, you have to give way in some way, shape or form. Otherwise, you know, you have to make a TV show and it has to be even more faithful than a movie would be. And I, in writing this, I almost found myself wondering if they ever make a Lord of the Rings TV show for the third age for the trilogy. I, I can't even imagine what it would look like.
- [19:16]
A
Yeah, I don't know. I'm just not going to think about that until such.
- [19:21]
B
Yeah. Not sure how well that would actually work. Because you're right, if they decide they were going to do that, then the, the Tolkien fandom, which incorporates, you know, a million different kinds of people. Oh boy, are they going to be judgmental about that. I mean, you'd better be utterly faithful because otherwise there will be screaming.
- [19:43]
A
And that's even harder to do in television because you've got to format it for that 48 minute long period with the, the arcs in a particular rhythm. And, you know, it's got to be, it's got to wrap up at the end of an episode. You don't have to do that in a film, whether it's two hours, three hours or four hours, you know.
- [19:58]
B
Yeah, not in that same way for sure.
- [20:00]
A
You have to get to an end at the end of the film, but you have to do it 12 times in a season. You know, I think that would make television an even harder medium, I think for a proper adaptation. But anyway, we digress. It's what we do though, right, Don?
- [20:14]
C
Constantly. That's why I'm here.
- [20:16]
B
But to rewind on one particular digression, Alan was talking about the sequel to his book. What about you, Don? Are you going to do a sequel to your book?
- [20:26]
C
I mean, I would love to, if I may, if enough of your listeners feel so inclined to purchase this and I am fortunate enough to be able to get the word out to his many people as I possibly can about this book, then yeah, I would love to do something, maybe not on Tolkien, but on the Lord of the Rings books. Making the Lord of the Rings more digestible. Maybe making the Silmarillion a bit more approachable than, than just saying good luck and here dive off the deep end. But you know, maybe it's a hundred short stories about the second age and the first age and the Aine Lundele and something like that to maybe make it a little bit more of a 15 year old, 14 year old.
- [21:08]
A
Don, I was gonna say you're now writing for the 15 year old version of yourself. The Silmarillion. It's a little more.
- [21:13]
C
Exactly. You gotta age it up a little bit. Yeah, we'll make it the 15 year old me for the sequel.
- [21:18]
B
Well, that sounds amazing.
- [21:19]
A
I love it. Well folks, you can help ensure that he gets a chance to write a sequel. Go buy Don's book now from your local bookseller or from Amazon and we will include a link in the show notes.
- [21:29]
B
It came out a couple of weeks back on November 25th in the US it comes out on the 4th of December here in the UK. But there's plenty of time for folks to buy this as a holiday gift. Tolkien fan in your lives. Don, thank you so much for joining us today.
- [21:43]
C
Thank you so much for having me. This has been lovely.
- [21:45]
A
Always a pleasure, Don. Take care.
- [21:51]
That is so great to have Don here and it was such a pleasure. I'm looking forward to reading his book. I say looking forward to. Yeah, but of course by the time folks are listening to this, it will have already come out. But you know, that's, that's the nature of time machines and podcasts. All right, well, let's go ahead and get back into something that's a lot less happy than Don's book, the story of Eldarian and Arenda.
- [22:10]
B
Just a bit.
- [22:11]
A
So our hero, I put air quotes around that has just left his wife's home and has left his daughter without telling her that he's dad. And he's gone off, but he hasn't gone off where he was saying he was going to. Saira, would you take us away?
- [22:27]
B
Yeah, I'm trying to see through the red flags at the moment. It's quite difficult.
- [22:31]
A
I need to brush them towards the dense forest. It's a dense forest.
- [22:34]
B
Oh, boy, here we go. Aldarion rode on to Hierostorni, the house of Halatan, his cousin, for he had a mind to rest there awhile and take thought. When he came near, he heard the sound of music, and he found the shepherds making merry for the homecoming of Ulbar, with many marvellous tales and many gifts. And the wife of Ulbar, garlanded, was dancing with him to the playing of pipes. At first none observed him, and he sat on his horse, watching with a smile. But then suddenly Olbar cried out, the great Captain. And Ubal, his son, ran forward to Aldarion's stirrup. Lord Captain, he said eagerly, what is it? I'm in haste, said Aldarion, for now his mood was changed, and he felt wrathful and bitter. I would but ask, said the boy, how old must a man be before he may go oversea in a ship like my father? As old as the hills, and with no other hope in life, said Aldarion, or whenever he has a mind. But your mother, Ulbar's son, will she not greet me? When Ulbar's wife came forward, Aldarion took her hand. Will you receive this of me? He said. It is but little return for six years of a good man's aid that you gave me. Then from a wallet under his tunic he took a jewel red like fire upon a band of gold, and he pressed it into her hand. From the King of the Elves it came, he said, but he will think it well bestowed when I tell him. Then Halldarion bade farewell to the people there, and rode away, having no mind now to stay in that house. When Halatan heard of his strange coming and going, he marvelled until more news ran through the countryside. Eldarion rode only a short way from Hierostawni, and then he stayed his horse and spoke to Hendrik, his companion. Whatever welcome Awaits you friend out west. I will not keep you from it. Ride now home with my thanks. I have a mind to go alone. It is not fitting, Lord Captain, said Hendrik. It is not, said Aldarion. But that is the way of it. Farewell. Then he rode on alone to Armenelos and never again set foot in Emmeria. I can see you shaking your head from here.
- [25:02]
A
That last line. That last line. I mean, to never go back to where your daughter is and to never go back to a region of the country where you are going to be king. Yes, because even this place is in Emerie. All right? I mean, that's the whole point, is that, yeah, Halatan is the lord of this region and he's the guy on the council. He's the senator, if you will.
- [25:25]
B
So relatively important that he maintains a decent relationship with him then.
- [25:28]
A
And I'm sure he does, but only when he's at our mental hospital. Let's go back to the beginning of that now. Indeed, as Arrandis observed at the end of the last reading previous episode, Eldarion was not in that much of a hurry to actually go and see the king, like he said, you know, after all, I mean, he'd already left the letter with his father. That was the important job. So why is he in a hurry to go back to see the king? No, he needed some time to stop and think, apparently. I mean, that's what he had a mind to rest there a while and take thought. Why, really? What was your whole journey home for? You couldn't have spent any time that. Nearly 24 hours it took you to get to your wife's house thinking about how to, I don't know, apologize for being gone more than twice as long as you said you'd be.
- [26:10]
B
Oh, I don't think that crossed his mind at all.
- [26:13]
A
No, probably not.
- [26:14]
B
No. So he goes to his cousin Halitan's home and the place is called Hierastoni. And of course, yes, we should do a brief bit of word nerdery on this Quenya name. Quenya expert. Off you go.
- [26:26]
A
Oh, there we go. The first element is something you've heard me talk about before. Hyar H Y A R. That's the prefix form of Hyarmen, meaning south. And we see that in two of the regions of Hyarnu Star, which means southwest lands, and. And Hyarstar, which is southeast lands.
- [26:43]
B
And it shows up in the name of two of the kings of Gondor as well in the name Hyarmendakil, which means South Victor or South Slayer.
- [26:51]
A
That's right.
- [26:52]
B
Hjarmen is cognate with Sindarin Harad, as in Haradrim Southrons, literally people of the South. Which is exactly why it shows up in the names of those two kings.
- [27:03]
A
Right, because they defeated the Southerns or the harad. Yeah, the second element wasn't clear to me initially, but eldamo.org When I say second element, I mean the second element of Haier Astorni. It wasn't clear, but eldamo.org suggests it's a derivative of the root stor, meaning steadfast. Now, we only see that Quenia derivative, either storn or torn here and in a couple of other words listed in Parma el Dalambron. They're not like common words that we see in the legendarium, but we do see the Sindarin cognate of that thorn in the name of Aragorn's father, Arathorne, a name that means steadfast King. So if in fact this is the derivative of that same store root, we're looking at a name that likely means South Fastness. Right, Like.
- [27:47]
B
Oh, that makes good sense, actually. Yeah. So back to the story. As he pulls up to his buddy's house, he hears a party going on, and it turns out it's for his shipmate, Olbar. And how long exactly have they been partying, do you think, Alan?
- [28:02]
A
A little while. I mean, the challenge, of course, is we're not given a precise location for Halatan's estate. We do know that since he represents the Andustar, it's somewhere probably in Andusstar. And if we look closely at the map, Arrondis White House is in the southeast part of Emmeria, which itself is in the southern portion of the Mittalmar, bordering Hyarnustar. And of course, that reminds me, I had said that Hylatan represents this area, but he doesn't. He represents the Andustar. It's just that the Andustar is the region bordering this, so. So, clarification, correction, if you will. We have another one at the end of the episode too, so might as well, if I'm going to be wrong, be wrong twice. It does, though, when you look at the map, it looks like it's at least as far from the White House in Emmerie to the nearest part of the border with Andustar. So it's been quite a ride. This is a long as it is from.
- [28:52]
The capital.
- [28:52]
B
Yeah, I'm still feeling sorry for the horse.
- [28:54]
A
Yeah, this horse has been a lot of miles on this horse.
- [28:56]
B
Oh, yeah, absolutely. And that said, we don't know how slowly all bar travels. He had a night's head start since he left for Haierstonia as soon as Aldarion arrived at the White House. But it's already quite the party. There's music, stories, gifts, garlands, dancing, and sulky Aldarion quietly, I don't know, seeming to enjoy watching people having fun celebrating Ulbar's return.
- [29:25]
A
This is interesting. Yeah. I mean, we read that when Eldarion got near, he heard all notice it was a party and he sat on his horse watching with a smile. So, like, as long as he's not observed, as long as he's just sitting there, being this passive observer of the party, he's finding some joy in it. And I can't help but think that his thought process is, well, this is good for him. I'm so glad for Ulbar. This should have been for me.
- [29:51]
B
Yeah, that's the bit. That's the bit. Yeah. And I think that's what makes him go grumpy in a bit, is that he seems to recognize that, well, Ulbar gets this and look at my cold reception.
- [30:04]
A
Yeah. And I think. And we'll talk more about that, but I think that has a lot to do with the gift that he gives Ulbar's wife.
- [30:11]
B
Oh, yes.
- [30:11]
A
I think that was meant originally for orendus.
- [30:15]
B
Oh, yes, 100%. There's no way a gift from Gil Galad was meant for the wife of.
- [30:22]
A
Ulbar of one of his sailors. Right. This is a kingly gift, a very kingly gift. I mean, it's a ruby, presumably the way it's described on a garment.
- [30:31]
B
I'm sure it's not a garnet. Not coming from Gil Galad.
- [30:34]
A
No, no, no, no. And it's not lab grown either. Coming from Gil Galad.
- [30:38]
B
No.
- [30:39]
A
Yeah. So it's. This is. This is interesting. It's clearly Eldarion processing, like what an appropriate homecoming should have been.
- [30:49]
B
It's what he expected, maybe.
- [30:51]
A
I think it's what he expected and what he would have wanted and what he would have hoped for. And yet I'm not sure that he's putting any dots together as to why it's not.
- [31:00]
B
He's not joining those dots at all.
- [31:03]
A
So. And in fact, I think just being recognized, the fact that once he's seen and called out, his mood shifts. And that's, I think, just more evidence that he knows somewhere deep in his subconscious that the reason he didn't get this homecoming is because he didn't deserve this homecoming.
- [31:23]
B
Oh, yes. Yeah. I mean, okay, Ulbar's been away just as long, but, you know, maybe he didn't make quite the same level of.
- [31:33]
A
Promises because he couldn't. I mean, Ulvar's got to tell his wife I'm going to be gone as long as the captain tells me I got to be gone. I work for my boss.
- [31:41]
B
Yes. He has no power over when the ship comes back.
- [31:44]
A
Right.
- [31:44]
B
Yes.
- [31:45]
A
Yeah. So, you know, it's a tough call. And. And again, we don't know anything about Ulbar and his wife and their courtship and their marriage. But one could maybe reasonably assume, at least, or at least reasonably guess that Ulbar's wife, before she became his wife, knew that he was a sailor and married him knowing that. Whereas Arrendus was like, we're going to stop doing this. Right. This is not what I want for our marriage. Right. There's got to be some. We don't know that for sure. I'm speculating partly because a sailor who does this out of need is different than a sailor who does this out of desire. You know, an unsated desire. Right.
- [32:26]
B
Yes.
- [32:26]
A
His father made that point very clear not that long back when he goes, look, you are not sailing out of. This is your career, and this is what you do for a living. You don't have to do this for a living. You're the king. This is your. Yeah. This is your obsession.
- [32:40]
B
Yeah. Whereas, of course, this is how Ulbar is earning money.
- [32:44]
A
Right. This is how he feeds his family. Literally.
- [32:46]
B
Yeah. So it's very different, isn't it?
- [32:48]
A
100. So now he's ticked. Why is he ticked?
- [32:51]
B
So Ulbar and his son Ebal, who he met at the beginning of last episode, greet him warmly. But now, once again, he claims to be in a hurry. What is it that you want? He's just such a. Yeah. I'm gonna reign in the language, but he's grumpy. Yes.
- [33:06]
A
He's very.
- [33:07]
B
The heck Aldarion. I mean, this is just rude.
- [33:09]
A
This is a kid. This is a kid who's excited. And, you know, you're this great captain. You're a hero to a lot of people. You shouldn't be.
- [33:17]
B
You don't behave like it. Does he?
- [33:19]
A
But, yeah. So, you know, Ebal's very respectful. You know, I would. I would only ask this question, right? How old do I have to be? He doesn't say, I, but how old does a man. He's talking about himself, how old do I have to be in order to go to Sea with my dad had. And Aldarian responds with a really weird non answer. And I. I don't even know if there's anything to talk through about this. Basically, you either have to be ancient and hopeless, which I guess I can go sail tomorrow. But also, well, whatever you want, right? Whenever you have a mind. Like what? What kind of answer is that?
- [33:51]
B
Oh, this is just him. Honestly, this is him being really grumpy. It is, yeah, whatever. Whenever he just, you know, he's not interested in having a conversation. And also because if that question was turned around and. And thrown at him, well, I can't, so why could anybody else? And I've been told I can't do this. And you know, he's just being such.
- [34:14]
A
A. Yeah, he is a child here for sure. It's interesting.
- [34:17]
B
He's sulky. He's sulking right now. Yeah. This is just a kid and he's. This. This kid is the son of a sailor. And clearly he wants to do what his dad's been doing. And what would it take tiny, tiny little bit of energy for Aeldarion to say, well, you know, you just have to be, what, 15, maybe a few more years.
- [34:38]
A
Probably not too far off, because remember when we met Ebal, he was described as being a little bit older than Ankala May, and at that time I think she was six. And so we were guessing he's like eight or nine, maybe. So at this point he's a tween, right? He's maybe 11, 12, something like that. So maybe in a few more years, son. Right?
- [34:58]
B
Probably be accepted as a cabin boy.
- [35:00]
A
Yeah, exactly. An apprentice to the Venturers, no doubt about it. But this is just a weird non answer. And then of course, he moves on. And this is where it gets a little odd. Will your mom not come out to greet me? Like will Ulbar's wife come out to greet me?
- [35:16]
B
Oh, this is because he didn't get greeted by his own wife.
- [35:19]
A
Oh, yeah.
- [35:19]
B
This is all to do with that, isn't it?
- [35:21]
A
I think so. I mean, I don't know that it is initially, but. But I mean, that is to say, as a reader, I'm not thinking to myself, this is because he didn't get the greeting. But when you realize what he does and he gives her that. That fabulous jewel that was clearly meant for Horrendous Man. This is all. I didn't get the greeting. I didn't get the party. I didn't get to give this gift.
- [35:42]
B
Where's my garland?
- [35:43]
A
And yet he could have come up and said, my dear patient wife, I am so very sorry. And I would. Here is this lovely gift I want to give you. Can we. Can we talk? Right. We know.
- [35:57]
B
Hand over the gift straight away, because I think she might throw it at his head. But an apology and a discussion first would probably go down.
- [36:04]
A
It's a ring and not a sharp object, so maybe he's safe to give it to her. It can only do minor damage, but I don't know.
- [36:11]
B
Challenge accepted.
- [36:13]
A
But, you know, we know from the text that she was looking for. That she was looking for an opportunity to extend. Pardon?
- [36:20]
B
Yeah.
- [36:20]
A
And it's just heartbreaking that here he is talking to one of his employees. Wives, as though I didn't get this greeting. But now I'm. Now I'm going to get it from you.
- [36:31]
B
Well, he gives her more than he gave Arrendus. And I'm not talking about the ring. I'm talking about how he says to her, you know, I kept your husband away for six years, and you know, I'm sorry about that.
- [36:43]
A
The work of a good man. Yeah, yeah.
- [36:45]
B
Yes. Yeah. He gives her way more than he gives Arendus.
- [36:49]
A
That's true.
- [36:49]
B
Plus a ring.
- [36:50]
A
Well, yeah, that's a very good point.
- [36:52]
B
And poor old Ulbar's wife, who, of course is another unnamed woman, just the wife of Ulbar, doesn't even get to speak in this interaction with Aldarion because she represents something. You know, she's barely a person comes out. And Aldarion has a kingly gift for her.
- [37:09]
A
He does indeed. And the thing is, he does seem like he's genuinely appreciative of her sacrifice. Right? I mean, yes. You know, six years of a good man. Why did he not see that same sacrifice in his own wife?
- [37:23]
B
Sheer stubbornness or different level of expectation. I don't know.
- [37:30]
A
It's awful.
- [37:30]
B
He should have.
- [37:31]
A
He sees it, too.
- [37:32]
B
He should have been able to see. Yeah.
- [37:34]
A
This doesn't seem like he's feigning this. It doesn't seem like he's just doing the forms. He really recognizes you have done without your husband, this good man who served by my side for six years. And you deserve to be recognized for that. Hello.
- [37:47]
B
I know. If only he had done something similar when he went home.
- [37:51]
A
Yeah. I just don't understand. How do you miss this? So obviously this is a fumble of fumbles. Really?
- [37:58]
B
It is a real fumble. It also shows us that he is capable of this kind of thinking and sensitivity and behavior. He just doesn't want to extend it to his own wife.
- [38:08]
A
Exactly. Which Makes it worse.
- [38:10]
B
This isn't like, oh, yeah, way worse.
- [38:12]
A
Doesn't have the capability and. No, he does.
- [38:14]
B
We can see it.
- [38:15]
A
He absolutely does. Yeah. So then he gives her this. This ruby ring given to Aldarian by Gil Galad himself, which, like you said, is evidence that this was meant for Irendus and not for just the wife of one of his sailors. But, yes, you know, this is where I. I start to wonder. This is one of the oddest passages in the entire story in the sense that it doesn't really.
- [38:37]
There's no easy explanations for things other than maybe the symbolism of the gift being like this should have been horrendous.
- [38:42]
B
This.
- [38:42]
A
What do you mean? He came here to think originally, like, this was his plan. I'm. I want to get away for a little bit. I want to think and rest at Holoton's house. But was this. Was this always in his plans to give the ring to somebody?
- [38:53]
B
No, I don't think it was. I think this is a spontaneous act. But I think that he gives her the ring in recognition of the fact that he arrives there and her husband is being fated. You know, there's a party, they're singing and dancing and garlanding and all sorts, and so she deserves the ring. Arendis didn't deserve the ring because she had only a very cold greeting for her husband. This is a woman who is behaving properly. She deserves the ring.
- [39:27]
C
Oh.
- [39:30]
A
That'S an interesting reading. I'm not disagreeing. I didn't think of that when I read it at the first time that he was seeing this as well. Here's somebody who's doing it properly. So we're going to give her a reward. I was wondering what his motivation would be. If his motivation originally was to bring the ring home and give it to Erendis, he obviously failed in that, right?
- [39:49]
B
Yes. And it's probably more of an apology ring.
- [39:52]
A
Yeah, it better have been.
- [39:54]
B
Yeah.
- [39:55]
A
But then does he decide on the way over to give the ring to Ulbar's wife? Does he decide when he gets there, I want to give the ring to somebody? Does he decide it when she comes out and greets him? Does she. At what point does he decide, I'm going to give her this ring as a thank you for the sacrifice that she gave in allowing Ulbar to say, okay, for these years, for five years. I don't know. What's the turning point? When's the moment when he says, I want to give you a gift? Is it literally the moment that he says, hey, Wait, I've got something for you.
- [40:33]
B
Yes. Honestly, I do think it is when he turns up and he sees the way that Ulbara is being treated, you know, with this great homecoming party.
- [40:45]
A
Yeah.
- [40:46]
B
I think that it just puts him in mind of, well, this is what Ulbar gets. Look at that. In comparison to what I got. And then when Ulbar's wife comes out and greets him, I think that it comes into his head, well, this is the wife doing it correctly. This is how a wife should be. This is who should get this. And it's there in his pocket. And also because it. The ring has lost some of its significance for him because he's not going to give it to Horrendous anymore. And the fact that it's a ring from the. The hiking of the elves. Good Lord. This is, you know, a really rich gift to give somebody. So it has kind of come down in his mind as to its value because it's no longer something he's giving to his wife. He can give it away to whoever. Really now.
- [41:40]
A
Yeah.
- [41:41]
B
But here is a wife who is doing what the wife should do.
- [41:45]
A
Expected to do.
- [41:46]
B
Yes, exactly. So I honestly think it's fairly spontaneous.
- [41:50]
A
That's fair.
- [41:50]
B
But that doesn't make it any better.
- [41:52]
A
No, no, it's just an interesting thing. Like what? What I mean, part of you is like, why is he even going here in the first place? Why is he watching the party from afar? And then why does he get grumpy when he's approached? Why does he give the. There's so many. This very unusual passage just generates a lot of whys, whereas a lot of the other things you look at and you're like, I know why he did it, but he's an idiot, you know. Yes, but at least the motivation isn't in question here. There's a lot more depth. Like, what is it that's driving him at this moment?
- [42:24]
B
I think he's got a lot to think about. Because if you remember in the last episode when he left Arendes and Ancalame, the things that he said to Ankalame, I think those are things he's wanting to just go and think about before he goes back to our Menelaus and puts things in motion. He needs space in which to think about things.
- [42:46]
A
I wonder if any of his thoughts are going to that line that we talked about last episode. Or I guess it was two episodes now because we just had Mike Drought on last week. But when we were talking about. When he says something about, you're going to be his heir too. You're the daughter of the king's heir and you will soon be his heir.
- [43:05]
We speculated that he's already now thinking about the idea of changing the laws when he becomes king so that she could inherit the throne. I wonder if that's one of the thoughts that he's working through, like, how would I accomplish this?
- [43:18]
B
Yeah, I agree with that. Which would take some thinking because it actually overturns a law that has been in place since thousand years, since the.
- [43:27]
A
Beginning of the kingdom, I mean.
- [43:31]
And one that I'm sure came into at least discussion at the time of Somarian, which is only two generations before. Of course, granted, two generations in Numenor is like 500 years. So it's been a while. But yeah, this is. This is a really interesting passage because it. It does generate a lot of what is he doing here? But I think you're right. There's a. A sense of I need to process. I'm not going to go back to our mental loss yet. I'm not ready to face my father. I'll go to my cousin. Hollowtown and I get along well. I'll go there. That's a good place to go.
- [44:07]
B
Nice comfortable space where I might find a warmer welcome.
- [44:10]
A
And if I'm there for a day, if I'm there for a week, that's. That's fine. Like, I don't even know that he intends to stay there for very long or if he just doesn't care. But once he gets there and he sees the party. You're right. I think his whole mindset shifts, like all of a sudden, why didn't I get this? Why wasn't I celebrated like this?
- [44:29]
B
Yeah, when I'm the great hero.
- [44:31]
A
Captain Ulbar was gone just as long as I was, but his wife is understanding. Why didn't I have an understanding wife? Oh, I've got a terrible wife. She's horrible. Who am I going to give this ring to? Oh, I know. Ul Barsw.
- [44:43]
B
See how that follows that way of thinking? Oh, yeah. Can you imagine though, if he rode back to our Menelaus at the same lickety split pace that he rode from Armeneolos to Emeria?
- [44:55]
A
He just about does that.
- [44:55]
B
His dad is like, you've been gone two days. What happened?
- [44:58]
A
Yeah, it's just about what he does, though. We'll find out in the next section that he gets back and he's only been gone for like three days or four days. I think it's like, how in the world did you pull that off? That's a lot of riding again.
- [45:10]
B
That poor horse.
- [45:11]
A
I know. I'm hoping it's multiple horses. I'm hoping he just swapped out a horse at Halatons for somebody else's, but.
- [45:17]
B
You know, you'd like to think so.
- [45:18]
A
He is the king's heir, so I imagine he's got his own. Yeah.
- [45:22]
B
So he leaves after saying goodbye, having changed his mind, not wanting to stay there after all.
- [45:27]
A
Another. Why? Another what? Like if you're. If you're trying to think things through and you're trying to rest, why are you just up and going? You. You're the king's heir. They're not going to say, no.
- [45:38]
B
No.
- [45:38]
A
You say, I want to hang out with you. I want to stay here and party with you, or I just want to go into the house and get. Get some sleep. They're going to say, which room do you want? We'll make it up for you. The servants are here to help you. If you're cold, call for fire.
- [45:53]
Said with much less snark this time.
- [45:56]
B
But take the thinking along the same line, what we've just been talking about, of why he responds in the way he does. So if we take that as being okay, this is a reading of his character. Why would he just. I'm not staying.
- [46:11]
A
It's the bitterness. It's that bitterness that we saw when he. When he got recognized and called out. His mood was changed. He became wrathful and bitter. And it's that bitterness that's just like, I can't. I don't even want to be near people. Yeah.
- [46:23]
B
Yes. Yeah. Particularly not people that are celebrating somebody.
- [46:27]
A
Right. Exactly.
- [46:29]
B
Yeah. I think that's it.
- [46:30]
A
Yeah. He leaves and I'll tell you what Hollow Town's like. I don't get it. You wrote all the way out here. I didn't even get a chance to say hi, and you're gone. So he was marveling at this, but he only marveled at it until he got word of what happened.
- [46:43]
B
Yeah. And then suddenly. It's not that.
- [46:45]
A
Now I understand right now there's some problems. What do you think it would have been like for Halatan? Right. He's a member of the council, so he's related to the king, which means he's also related to. The king's here. He's cousin to both of them. And now he's aware that his next king is estranged from his wife and daughter in his role as counselor. Does he need to take this into consideration when he's talking to and providing advice to Meneldur or later to Eldarion himself. How does he process this and what does this mean to him for the standing of Eldarion?
- [47:20]
B
I think this is really quite a huge thing. It's unprecedented amongst the royal family.
- [47:27]
A
It's unprecedented pretty much amongst Numenor, period. This just doesn't happen.
- [47:31]
B
But this is truly unprecedented. And the fact that it's happening within the line of kings is very concerning.
- [47:39]
A
Yeah. Deeply troubling. You're right.
- [47:40]
B
Exactly. Would have been, oh, there's only a girl to be heir.
- [47:46]
A
Yes.
- [47:46]
B
This is not great. This is really great because Alatan's not thinking of the line of succession being changed or anything like that.
- [47:52]
A
He's not thinking about the law. That's a given. That's like gravity. That's never going to change. So now what? We don't have an answer there.
- [47:58]
B
Yeah. So I think actually this does not paint Aldarion in the best light. No. And I think that someone like Halatan, who is a member of the Council, has been around for a while and probably is well aware of feeling towards Aldarion and his behavior.
- [48:18]
A
He would be able to know the political pulse of.
- [48:21]
B
Exactly. And Mineldo's response to all of this. I think that this is, we're going to say, red flags again. I think that Halatan is noticing the red flags. I think this would be very concerning.
- [48:33]
A
It's going to be interesting though, because we'll find out later when. In a couple of episodes when Meneldur does give the scepter to his father or to his son. I should say when Menelder gives the scepter to Eldarion, Halatan is the only member of the council to support that move happening. Right away, the rest of the council tries to talk the king into holding off. Off. And I wonder how much this played into that. Like, did this cause him to think, yes, he's ready or. Which I can't understand at all?
- [49:07]
B
No, I don't think he's read.
- [49:08]
A
Or was this, like the one thing that gave him pause? Like this had to give him some pause as to whether or not he was ready. But he ends up deciding that he is and counts.
- [49:17]
B
I don't think it's because he thinks he's ready. I think it's possibly because he thinks this is the one thing that is probably going to work to keep Aeldarion on track, to keep him in Numenor, make him do the job he's supposed to do. Whereas because he now estranged from Horrendous, the Next thing that could happen is he gets on a ship, he's gone for a decade. Gone. Yeah, exactly. If not longer. And that's the last thing I think somebody sensible would want to do. I think Halitan has insight into just how bad that might be. And the fact that Aldarion could take the scepter might. Might pin him in place.
- [50:01]
A
Yeah, that's a good way of putting it. You're right. I mean, it's. It's a. It's a way of making sure he does the job that he's supposed to do and doesn't just sail off. Because without having that wife and daughter here that are. Are keeping you here as you should, you have no reason to. To stay on the island. You'd be gone all the time.
- [50:18]
B
That would be much worse.
- [50:19]
A
The question of the air, though, would definitely have to come into play. Like. Like if I'm Halatan, I'm not sure I want Eldarion taking the scepter until he has an heir himself. But.
- [50:31]
B
But he's not going to get an heir if he gets on a boat and sails back to Middle Earth.
- [50:35]
A
That's true.
- [50:36]
B
Keeping him in Numenorm.
- [50:37]
A
This is the only chance. The minuscule chance. Yeah, absolutely.
- [50:41]
B
Yeah. Oh, boy. Well, it appears that Hendrick was there the entire time. Probably the strong silent time.
- [50:47]
A
He didn't say a thing, almost talking.
- [50:50]
B
Maybe he's just sitting there, judging quietly.
- [50:52]
A
How could he not?
- [50:53]
B
As we get a brief conversation between him and Aldarion. And when they get just a short ride away from Halatan's place, Aldarion tells him to ride home west. Because I want to be alone.
- [51:04]
A
I want to be alone. Hendrik says it's not appropriate. And presumably from his perspective, he's thinking it's. It's just not a good idea. Like, it's not. It's not prudent for the king's heir to be alone in case he gets hurt. I mean, if. If his horse stumbles and he falls and he gets injured, but also he.
- [51:20]
B
Should have an entourage. He is very important.
- [51:22]
A
He is the king's heir, after all. You know, if you fall and you break your leg, you're gonna need some help. And if you're by yourself, you don't get that help. You just die out in the middle of Numenor.
- [51:30]
B
Oh, dear. How sad. Never mind. Moving on.
- [51:33]
A
Oh, no. Anyway, Eldarion's reply, though, suggests that there's a deeper thing on his mind as not being fitting. What do you think he means? It's not fitting for him to be alone.
- [51:45]
B
I think that for him, he just doesn't want anybody around while he's working through everything that's going on in his head to have somebody actually there. But it isn't fitting. But there's nothing that can really be done about it, because that's just the way things are.
- [52:05]
A
Yeah, that.
- [52:07]
B
Yes. It isn't fitting in the sense that he should have an entourage. He should have people with him. He is the king's heir. Traveling through the countryside, there should be those who are there to look after him, wait upon him, make sure all his needs are met, because he is the king's heir and all that kind of thing. But he says, yeah, well, maybe it isn't fitting, but I didn't get a party and I don't get an entourage either. And that's just the way of it.
- [52:34]
A
Yeah. I think there's a part of him that knows where he really should be, which is in a merrier with Rendus and his daughter. And that's what's not fitting. But he's still blaming her 100%. He's not taking any of the accountability. He's just like, it is not fitting that I'm alone. I shouldn't be alone. I should be at my house. They should be holding a party for me. I'm only going back because I can't stay here. Right.
- [53:01]
C
Yeah.
- [53:02]
A
Man, this is rough.
- [53:03]
B
Sara shakes her head in despair.
- [53:06]
A
Common theme. That's the subtitle of all 11 episodes.
- [53:09]
B
Yeah. Both of us, our necks are getting quite the workout as we keep shaking our heads over Eldarion's behavior. Mind you, we'll get back to Arendis and we'll be shaking our heads over Orendi.
- [53:19]
A
Oh, yes, we most assuredly will.
- [53:20]
B
Yeah. So finally, Eldarion heads back to the capital. But this is. Oh, this one really hits hard. We're told he never goes back to the region of Emeriae again. This is terrible.
- [53:32]
A
It really is terrible. I mean, there are only a handful of. Of Maria is not the entire region of the Mittelmar, but it is a huge chunk of it. It would be like a king of England deciding he's never going to step foot in, I don't know, a part of England that he doesn't like. Well, let's just say Wales, because it's not part of England, but it's part of the United Kingdom. And let's say a king somehow decides he's never going to step foot in Wales again.
- [53:55]
B
Yes.
- [53:56]
A
Like what? That's an insult. To the people you are supposed to lead and represent. And that's on the macro scale. But I want to also look at the micro scale. Your daughter is here.
- [54:08]
B
Oh, yeah.
- [54:09]
A
Also your wife. But clearly you've both given up on that.
- [54:11]
B
Yes.
- [54:12]
A
I mean, you know, that's again, like we've said before. What? It's awful what these two adults are doing to each other. But they're adults. To do this to a child is unforgivable, unconscionable. 100.
- [54:25]
B
Yeah. This is abandonment.
- [54:28]
A
Yeah, yeah. On both the micro and macro scales. No doubt about it.
- [54:31]
B
Yeah. It doesn't bode well for him being king, that's for sure.
- [54:34]
A
Not much does.
- [54:36]
B
No, no, this is very true.
- [54:44]
A
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- [57:33]
B
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- [57:54]
A
Sell your car today.
- [57:56]
B
Carvana pickup fees may apply.
- [58:06]
A
Now. Soon we'll get back to Gil Galad's letter to Maneldor. But before we do, I want to take a minute to thank the amazing community that has grown up around this show. And it's a good thing too, because it means there's a lot more talk going on at the Prancing Pony Podcast than just us.
- [58:20]
B
As you say, just as well. Now the PPP really does have a warm and welcoming listener community. If you've got questions or you just want to talk about how much you love Middle Earth, be sure to check out our common room on Facebook and across all social media. Now, on Facebook, just look for the Prancing Pony podcast and yes, there is a page, but you're going to want to join the group for that great fan community.
- [58:41]
A
Now on every social media platform besides Facebook, we are just rancingponypod and then you can find our subreddit at r prancingponypod. And please check out my daily show, today's Tolkien Times. It's on YouTube and your favorite podcast apps. A way to get your daily Middle Earth fix. Be sure to watch or listen@YouTube.com prancingponypod pot right.
- [59:02]
B
Well, we finally get to the bit where Manelder opens his emails. Right?
- [59:06]
A
Yeah. Yeah. This is a letter from the homeowners association letting him know that the sign that he's put in the front yard has to be taken down before 30 days have passed. It's in violation.
- [59:18]
B
I have to be honest, when I heard about these housing associations that you have and their rules, I just. My jaw hit the floor. But that's a whole other segue.
- [59:28]
A
And it is that it is. Alright.
- [59:32]
Then. Meneldur broke the seal and read Erinion Gil Galad, son of Fingon to Tar Meneldur of the line of Earendil, greeting. The Valar keep you. And may no shadow fall upon the isle of Kings. Long I have owed you thanks, for you have so many times sent to me. Your son, Anardil Aldarion, the greatest elf friend that now is among men, as I deem at this time, I ask your pardon if I have detained him overlong in my service. For I had great need of the knowledge of men and their tongues, which he alone possesses. He has dared many perils to bring me counsel of my need. He will speak to you, yet he does not guess how great it is, being young and full of hope. Therefore I write this for the eyes of the King of Numenora. Only a new shadow arises in the east. It is no tyranny of evil men, as your son believes. But a servant of Morgoth is stirring, and evil things wake again. Each year it gains in strength, for most men are ripe to its purpose. Not far off is the day I judge, when it will become too great for the Eldar unaided to withstand. Therefore, whenever I behold a tall ship of the kings of Men, my heart is eased. And now I make bold to seek your help. If you have any strength of men to spare, lend it to me. I beg your son will report to you, if you will, all our reasons. But in fine it is his counseland that is ever wise, that when assault comes, as it surely will will, we should seek to hold the westlands where still the Eldar dwell, and men of your race, whose hearts are not yet darkened at the least we must defend Eriador about the long rivers west of the mountains that we name Hithyglir our chief defense. But in that mountain wall there is a great gap southward in the land of Calenardhon, and by that way inroad from the east must come already enmity creeps along the coast towards could be defended and assault hindered did we hold some seat of power upon the nearer shore. So the Lord Eldarion long has seen at Vignalonde by the mouth of Gwathlo. He has long labored to establish such a haven, secure against sea and land, but his mighty works have been in vain. He has great knowledge in such matters, for he has learned much of Cirdan, and he understands better than any the needs of your great ships. But he has never had men enough, whereas Cirdan has no rights or masons to spare. The king will know his own needs. But if he will listen with favor to the Lord Eldarion and support him as he may, then hope will be greater in the world. The memories of the First Age are dim, and all things in Middle Earth grow colder. Let not the ancient friendship of Eldar and Dunedain wane also. Behold, the darkness that is to come is filled with hatred for us, but it hates you no less. The great sea will not be too wide for its wings if it is suffered to come to full growth. Manwe keep you under the water, one, and send fair wind to your sails.
- [63:10]
B
Wow.
- [63:11]
A
Oh, what? A letter.
- [63:13]
B
Right?
- [63:14]
A
We'll get to it. There's a lot to unpack, as we say.
- [63:16]
B
There really is. Yeah. And it was really hard to skip anything, but we skipped the early portion of this passage when Manelda actually opened this letter.
- [63:24]
A
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
- [63:25]
B
So when he looked at it, after his toddler son threw a tantrum and stormed off, he noticed that it came from High King Gil Galad. I mean, can you imagine?
- [63:34]
A
This is huge, right? I mean, this is incredible. I mean, sure, you're the king. You're a pretty important guy yourself. But this is coming from the High King of the Noldor, and he recognizes that it's from him because of his emblem, which is white stars on a blue circle. And I love this. The footnote to this is great because it actually tells us how he got the name Gil Galad, because he was born Erinion, which means scion of kings.
- [63:57]
B
Now, Gil Galad is, in case you've missed it the few other times we've mentioned it, Sindarin for Star of Radiance, or Star of. Of bright light, from Gill star and Galad Radiance. Now, here we read that he was given the name Star of Radiance because his helm and mail and his shield overlaid with silver and set with a device of white stars, shone from afar like a star in sunlight or moonlight, and could be seen by Elvish eyes at a great distance if he stood upon a height.
- [64:30]
A
Get chills reading that. And, of course, it also Means that he didn't get that name until he was, you know, full grown and wearing helm and mail and a shield and all of that. I mean, he's already a leader of elves, and now he gets the name Gil Galad because you can see him from afar. So it's got his emblem and it's addressed to Meneldur in Armenolas, care of Aldarion, with a return address of Mithlon. And it's no cash on delivery. He doesn't have to pay for the delivery, but that's where we pick up with Mineldor opening the letter and beginning to read, read.
- [65:03]
B
And it starts with the greeting, which is lovely.
- [65:06]
A
Oh, it is. Yep.
- [65:07]
B
It's absolutely wonderful. The whole tone of this letter is just delightful. You can imagine, actually someone like Gil Gallard creating letters like this because his command of language. Oh, I could go off on this.
- [65:21]
A
Really, we will. That's the whole point. This whole section on the letter is. There's so many little bits and pieces to pull out of it. Yeah.
- [65:27]
B
Now, there's the usual formality, which, you know, for kings, unsurprisingly, includes mention of lineage, both Gil Galad's own lineage as son of Fingon, and we'll get to that in a second, I promise. And Minelda's descent from Earendil.
- [65:43]
A
And then the lovely greeting that part of me wants to steal for use in all my emails to anybody in the Tolkien fandom. Right. The Valar keep you, and may no shadow fall upon the Isle of Kings. Oh, I mean, okay, well, I would love that. Maybe not everybody has an Isle of Kings for me to wish that shadow free future on. But, you know, the idea is certainly love. Lovely. And it just made the Valar keep you and no shadow fall upon, you know, your. Whatever. I love that. So pretty.
- [66:08]
B
It's a wonderful sentiment, actually. Yes. Yeah. But now we need to touch on this mention of Gil Galad, son of Fingon, don't we? Because. Slightly problematic.
- [66:18]
A
Yeah.
- [66:19]
B
I mean, okay, very briefly, but we are going to digress here because it's actually very interesting and we'll talk about more of this in the P5, so be sure to tune into that.
- [66:29]
A
That's right. That's going to be the full, expanded version of our dig. Digression.
- [66:32]
B
Oh, right. Okay. So this is just a taster. Digression. And the tldr is this. When Tolkien was originally writing the Lord of the Rings, he still imagined Gil Galad as a descendant of Feanor.
- [66:46]
A
Now, eventually he decided that he would be a son of Finrod. But then Tolkien changed his mind again when he decided Finrod would remain unmarried and thus wouldn't have children. And that's when he thought that he might be. Be the son of Fingon. Now, I have to say, this is starting to sound like an episode of one of those really bad daytime TV talk shows where the host reveals the results of a paternity test. All right, Gil Gallad, who's your daddy?
- [67:11]
B
You are not the father.
- [67:13]
A
Oh, thank goodness. Yeah.
- [67:18]
B
Anyway, there were other changes, but that's what the P5 is for, right? It suffices for this conversation that when Christopher edited the Silmarillion, he went with Gil Galad, a son of Fingon.
- [67:30]
A
So.
- [67:30]
B
And for the sake of our story here, he edited this line here in the letter from Gil Galad, which, as written, claimed descent of the house of Finarfin.
- [67:39]
A
Now, that's interesting. And eventually, Christopher would come to regret this and call it a mistake. But again, more in the P5.
- [67:46]
B
So now we get to the substance of this letter, and, wow, does this muddy the waters about Aldarion. Yeah, I mean, we've spent weeks seeing him as nothing more than a complete jerk. And make no mistake, he is exactly that.
- [67:59]
A
Oh, yeah.
- [68:00]
B
But now we're starting to see his significance on the world stage. I mean, this just knocks it out of the water here in terms of. It's so easy to see him in terms of black and white or, you know, just this kind of binary all good or all evil. I mean. I mean, very few of Tolkien's characters are all good or all evil or anything.
- [68:25]
A
I mean, he's criticized as though he only writes a world that's black and white with characters of black and white.
- [68:29]
B
Absolutely does not. Anyone who thinks that has not been reading the same books we've been reading.
- [68:34]
A
Just tell me you've never read Tolkien without telling me you've never read Tolkien. I mean, this is a character who. Holy cow. We spent seven and a half weeks so far deciding that this guy's a jerk. We don't like him very much. For good reason, by the way.
- [68:50]
B
Yep, yep.
- [68:51]
A
And yet here's Gil Galahad saying, man, your son is amazing. He's incredible. And you're like, what? None other than the High King of the Noldor himself. Gil Galad declares Eldarion to be the greatest elf friend that now is among men.
- [69:07]
B
Right. Gil Galad's a fanboy of Eldarion.
- [69:10]
A
How is this possible? And, of course, it's because he only sees this limited aspect of who Eldarion is.
- [69:18]
B
Yes. Yeah. The Aldarion as he presents himself when he's not in Numenor. When he is the great sea captain.
- [69:25]
A
Exactly.
- [69:25]
B
The great adventurer, the great explorer and all the things that he has done up and down the coast.
- [69:30]
A
And he is those things to his credit. He is those things. That's very real. Gil Galad sees that. He also, later on, we'll see him describe him as providing wise counsel. I mean, there's definitely some of his father's wisdom, but, you know, again, it's just something he can't possibly seem to apply in his personal life. This is an interesting one, though. Gil Galad expresses, you know, long delayed gratitude and he apologizes for keeping Eldarion so long in my service. I know this wouldn't have comforted Orendus, but you gotta wonder, could he have not come home and said to Orendus, even Gil Galad wants to apologize. Like, I'm sorry. And Gil Galad himself wants to apologize for keeping me for reason some so long. Like, I don't know how much it would have. Like I said, it wouldn't have comforted her. But it might have made it easier for her to extend that pardon that she was looking to extend.
- [70:19]
B
Exactly. It's not like there was no possibility of pardon. We've gone through that, haven't we? She was hoping for something. And there was quite a few somethings he could have done. This is one of the some things that he could have done.
- [70:33]
A
This is definitely one of the somethings. I mean, when the High King of the Noldor says, I'm so sorry.
- [70:38]
B
Yes. And maybe that's why the ring was given from Gil Galad to Aldarion. Here, give your wife this. I'm really sorry for six years of.
- [70:46]
A
A good man service. That was exactly what I was thinking as you were talking about that, like, ooh, dot, dot, line. Yes. This was Gil Galad saying, I am so sorry. Here, have this in token of my appreciation.
- [71:00]
B
But Aldarion's too much of a jerk to actually do what he could have done with that. There are two Aldarions right at the moment. There's the Aldarion who is an absolute jerkfest. The one who is a terrible father and a terrible husband. And actually, so far, a terrible king's heir.
- [71:20]
A
Yeah, yeah.
- [71:20]
B
He's a terrible son. Yes. He's really shown nothing but red flags. But when he's away from home, when he is Aeldari on the captain, not Aeldari on the king's heir or Aeldari on the husband or Aeldari on the father. When he is Arian, the captain, then he seems to be in his element.
- [71:39]
A
Yeah.
- [71:39]
B
This is what he can do. But there's not very much emotion involved here. It's more about cool, calm, collected consideration. I love that alliteration of what needs to be done in these situations.
- [71:54]
A
Yeah.
- [71:55]
B
Whereas when he comes home, he has to engage sensitive Aeldarion, which frankly doesn't exist. Emotional Aldarion, which is again, self focused.
- [72:05]
A
Only he is very emotional, but only about himself. Himself. Yeah, yeah.
- [72:09]
B
So there are two Aeldarions. They don't cancel each other out because that's not how it works. But this is very typical Tolkien for me, where people have multiple layers. Oh, yeah, yeah, right.
- [72:24]
A
This really is. He's in his wheelhouse. When he's out there with Gil Galad, when he's out there facing the perils of Middle Earth, figuring out what's going on in the bigger world, making plans, building fleets, building harbors, expanding the power of Numenor, arguably pretty good at statecraft, terrible at human relationships.
- [72:44]
B
Yes. Really Shockingly bad.
- [72:46]
A
Yeah, shockingly bad is a way to put it. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
- [72:51]
B
So his service included, apparently, language lessons.
- [72:57]
A
You know, Gil Galad, you know, you could just get Duolingo and you'd be fine.
- [73:02]
C
I don't.
- [73:03]
A
Not a sponsor of the show. They could be if they wanted to.
- [73:07]
Yeah. I mean, it is interesting. Yeah, that it is. He's teaching him the Manish language. I wish there was more to say about that. I'm a little. I'm a little intrigued by that. And I want to know more about. Really.
- [73:18]
B
Why would. Why would Gil Galad, who's been around for quite a long time, why would he need Aldarion to teach him?
- [73:26]
A
The only thing I can think of is how Adonaic has changed since the Edain established Numenor. And therefore, because it's also then the language of the people that they've encountered, like the. The Manish languages get descended from the same route that Adonaik is descended from. So maybe he's looking to be able to communicate with some of the men in Middle Earth and he's just not getting all of that nuance. I don't know.
- [73:50]
B
Yeah, yeah. So also we hear that there has been counsel that he has, quote, dared many perils in order to deliver.
- [74:01]
A
Yeah, we have talked about the perils. Right. We've talked about, you know, almost losing his ship at the Harad. We've talked about the weather and all of the challenges. Most of his perils seem to be in trying to get home. But, you know, there have been some that have been certainly along the coast.
- [74:16]
B
Yeah. I don't think there's any thought that Aldarion is a coward when it comes to being a ship's master, being a captain, you know, or doing what he's doing over in Middle Earth. Earth is just, you know, in his dealings with his wife, he's a coward.
- [74:30]
A
Oh, yeah, yeah, he's. He's an emotional coward. But, yeah, he'll. He'll stand strong in the face of a massive storm. I mean, we think about the lightning demasting his ship on the way home. And that was the previous journey. And he went. He went back out again. That's the kind of experience that I might never go on a ship again.
- [74:47]
B
Yes, indeed. I mean, really, I would call that a message.
- [74:51]
A
I would stay home, I think I'll say, is trying to tell me something. I am going to stay. Then we get to a revelation in the letter here that I find really intriguing. Gil Galad tells Mineldor, essentially, look, even Aldarion doesn't know what I'm about to tell you. And I didn't tell him because of his youth and hopefulness.
- [75:11]
Eldarion is 182 now. Granted, in Numenorean years, that's the equivalent of 52. So we're still young.
- [75:18]
C
I like that.
- [75:19]
B
I'd love to hear that.
- [75:21]
A
But while that is young in the eyes of an elf, if he's so impressed with Eldarion and he's the greatest elf friend among men, and he's, you know, his counsel is always wise, why do you think Gil Galad is keeping the nature of the problem? Because that's really the only thing he's keeping secret. Why is he keeping that secret from Eldarion and telling only Meneldor what we're about to read?
- [75:45]
B
I honestly don't have a decent answer for that. The only thing that comes to mind is it's king to king here. And that's what this letter is supposed to be. And that sometimes these sorts of communications are king to king, not king to king, son, that they have to be done at the, you know, the very top level.
- [76:08]
A
Yeah.
- [76:08]
B
It's the only answer I have to this because nothing else makes any sense to me anyway.
- [76:14]
A
That also fits, though, with what we read later with. With Meneldur's decision to surrender the scepter. Sort of like, I need to make sure my son gets the full picture because he's going to be the one making the decisions.
- [76:23]
B
If it's going to be king to king, then the king needs to change.
- [76:26]
A
Then it needs to be the king. Yeah, interesting. That's a good point.
- [76:29]
B
Yeah. Yeah. So the point of the letter and the central connection with the rest of the history of Middle Earth is right here. Sauron is arising in the east, and Aeldarion apparently believes it's evil men, perhaps Easterlings or Saurons or some like. But Gil Galad knows the truth.
- [76:47]
A
Oh, yeah.
- [76:47]
B
A servant of Morgoth. Here are names, but we know, we know.
- [76:53]
A
That's right.
- [76:53]
B
Yes.
- [76:54]
A
It also, though, helps remind us of the nature of that threat. Because a servant of Morgoth, I mean, this is the Edain, got this land because of their involvement in the defeat of Morgoth in the first place. So for a servant of Morgoth to be arising is an existential threat. This isn't just the Easterlings are causing trouble. Again, this is an existential threat. Threat by a power that is greater than elves or men. Right. This is a Maya. I mean, it's not a Vala. At least it's not Morgoth himself. Yeah, but it's a significant power. And I want to point out, though, that the reason why Eldarion believes it's evil men is what Gil Galad says next. He says men are ripe to its purpose. And that's interesting. Sad, but interesting.
- [77:40]
B
It's sad. It's also. Gil Galad is being rather sort of essentialist here. He's saying that all men are ripe to its purpose, and therefore we need the Edain to stand against it. And, you know. Okay, I'm not entirely sure that all humans would be susceptible.
- [78:00]
A
He does say most men are ripe to its purpose, which might still be an exaggeration, but you're right. Yeah, yeah.
- [78:05]
B
But I mean, Gil Galad remembers a very long time ago does. Right. And he will know about just how many of the Atani were drawn to Morgoth's side for one reason or another. Sometimes, you know, beaten into it and sometimes just seduced into it.
- [78:28]
A
Right. I mean, you think about Bore and Ulfang and how one of them stayed faithful to the promise they'd made to the elves, and the other, you know, betrayal, betrayed them.
- [78:35]
B
Yeah, exactly.
- [78:37]
A
Which was the origin of the Easterlings, if I remember correctly.
- [78:40]
B
Yeah. So there is always going to be a worry, isn't there? I mean, the Edain got Numenor because they stood head and shoulders above so many of the other Otani and said, no, we will stand. But That's a thousand years ago.
- [78:54]
A
Yeah, yeah, that is a long time ago.
- [78:56]
B
It is.
- [78:58]
A
So this threat is big enough. Gil Galad argues that one of these days it's going to become too large for us, the elves, that is to face alone. And he's right. We're talking about a Maya, right? That's a power greater than any of the children of Iluvatar. And that brings us to the ask of this letter. The purpose. The purpose, actually, is a little broader. But the ask. The one thing that Gil Galad is saying. Hey, I need men. If you can. I need men. Your men, if you can spare them.
- [79:28]
B
Very specifically, Numenoreans. Because you are the. Yes, exactly. And Aeldarion knows enough of the threat to know the strategic and tactical need for the support. Apparently, what he doesn't know is just the nature of the threat. The fact that it's Sauron, not just Atani.
- [79:47]
A
I mean, it might be that it's men that you're facing off against in battle. Sauron's not going to be on the battlefield, but he is driving this force. And that is something that Gil Galad understands. You can't underestimate. His power is more than you know.
- [80:02]
B
Right. Yeah.
- [80:04]
A
So, speaking of Aldarin, we get a glimpse at the advice that he's provided to the High King. Advice that Gil Galad says naively and without a full set of information is ever wise.
- [80:17]
B
Bless his heart.
- [80:18]
A
I'm not sure I would say Eldarion's advice is always wise, but, you know. No, but Gilgalad's not seeking marital advice, so maybe it is.
- [80:28]
B
No. Yeah, that's. Yeah, that's a whole other thing I've often wondered, reading this letter, because it's such a significant letter. I've often wondered to what extent Gil Galad is gilding the lily here. A little bit that, you know, that he's.
- [80:44]
A
Oh, yeah.
- [80:45]
B
Because he wants something out of. Out of Numenor, he wants.
- [80:48]
A
Flattery will get you everything. Yeah, right.
- [80:51]
B
There is a little element of flattery going on here. Gil Galad's not stupid, kid, you know.
- [80:56]
A
No, far from it. Yeah.
- [80:58]
B
He wants something, and he knows to get that something that he's got to, I don't know, present himself in a certain way. He's greeting Harmon Elder as an equal.
- [81:12]
A
Yeah. Yeah.
- [81:13]
B
Which they're not, really.
- [81:15]
A
No, no, they're not.
- [81:17]
B
No. But he's greeting him as an equal and then telling him just how great his son is. There. No, I think there's a little bit of polish being Put on this maybe.
- [81:26]
A
Yeah, yeah. I mean not a bald faced lie. I mean he is giving.
- [81:29]
B
No, no, no, no, no. But he's being a politician here.
- [81:32]
A
Yeah, he's. You're right. This is diplo speak for sure. That's a fair point. Just totally off notes. I go back to that line in the text when he says it will become too great for the Eldar unaided to withstand. This is Gil Galad who will stand by Elendil, who will lay down his life along with Elend to try to stop Sauron at the battle of the Last Alliance. This is. He doesn't foresee this or anything along those lines, but he knows this is like we said earlier, existential. I just had just a little bit moment of emotion there thinking about here's this guy who's going to die fighting Sauron.
- [82:08]
B
Gil Galad was an Elven king of him the Harpers sadly sing the last Whose realm was fair and free between the mountains and the sea sea oh.
- [82:18]
A
Gilgalad's an incredible, incredible king. So yeah, I think you're right. There's a little bit of diplomatic speak here in saying that he's ever wise. But yeah, definitely. I just had to throw that out there. When I was thinking about it, I was like, I gotta tie the dots. This isn't just the High King of the Noldor. This isn't just Gil Galad. This is the Gil Galad who fights alongside Elendil and who's. Whose very life is lost to this threat that he's telling Van Eldor about.
- [82:45]
B
So the advice that apparently is ever wise is to defend the northwest of Middle Earth. Eriador. Yeah, yeah, The Misty Mountains will help, but the Gap of Rohan, which is not called that yet.
- [82:58]
A
Right.
- [82:59]
B
Is where the attack will have to come.
- [83:01]
A
Yeah, he's right. I mean any attack from the east, I mean, could you try to go around the north side of the Misty Mountains through the. No, not realistically. You're going to have to come through Calenardhon. Okay. That's the area. The Gap of Rohan. So then we get this suggestion. This is interesting. Enmity creeps along the coast. This tells me that the Haradrim are moving north. And then we get a moment that I feel leads Numenor down a road. That's troubling and it's the point that we could defend this place better. That is the Gap of Rohan. If we help, I'll just call what it is Calinar than. I'm sorry I say Gap of Rohan. For those of you who aren't familiar with the map of first and Second Age, so we could defend that region of Middle Earth more effectively. If Gil Galad says we held a seat of power on the shore.
- [83:55]
This is definitely a justification for the outpost of. Or the harbor of Vignolande and maybe some other outposts in the area. So my question to you is, what if it had just remained a harbor? What if they had just built outposts and didn't use those footholds as bases for resource gathering and the subjugation of the peoples native to the area? Would that have been enough? Would the placement of military forces at strategic points along the coast of Middle Earth, but without the Imperial expansion, without that colonialization, would that have been enough? I have to say, it feels like it was. I don't. I don't think Yogalad's all for what's gonna happen.
- [84:41]
B
Here's my problem with that. Once you start creating these outposts, which, you know, there's a bit of a difference between simply outpost and seat of power.
- [84:51]
A
Well, that's true. Seat of power is not outpost New.
- [84:55]
B
Once you start creating these seats of power, you have to put. Well, you can. You're going to need more than one. Right. You're going to need a few. You're also going to need a lot of people there. You're going to need to feed those people.
- [85:10]
A
Yep.
- [85:10]
B
You're going to need to house those people. You're going to need to maintain this seat of power. You're not going to be able to do that from Numenor.
- [85:20]
A
No. No.
- [85:21]
B
So over time, it's almost inevitable that the seats of power will start to draw from the natural resources around them. And over time, that will become increasingly. So this is just. This is how it would have to go.
- [85:35]
A
Yeah.
- [85:36]
B
It just really kind of nags at me that Gil Galad doesn't seem to take that into consideration. Or maybe his concern is just so high that he thinks this is. Yeah. And also because he will have a perception of the Edain. They are the greatest. That's true of all of the eiron.
- [85:55]
A
So he's going to assume not only noble motives, but noble actions. Because the elves wouldn't do what the new. What the Numenoreans are going to do over the coming years, not just in Aldarion's reign, but all the way through to the end of. Of Numenor is not what the elves would do. Not even. Okay, maybe Feanor, but, you know, the. The rest, not so much. So you're right. I think he's assuming noble motives. But I also think, and you hinted at this earlier, it. It goes back to the word we used earlier. This is an existential potential threat. So for him, establishing his seat of power may or may not present a threat to people or to the resources in the region, but it's a necessary threat because we have to have. Because otherwise. And we'll get to this later too, because Manelder talks about, oh, do I prepare for war? Do I just, you know, stay at peace? You. You can't always stay in that mode of peace, especially when you're not.
- [86:50]
B
Have happened in my time.
- [86:51]
A
Exactly. Exactly. But I. Yeah, I think you're right, though. Gilgalad is assuming a nobility of motive and a nobility of action that we'll sadly see is not warranted.
- [87:02]
B
Yeah, I agree. Now, Gil Galad mentions Vignolande specifically saying that Eldarion's efforts were unsuccessful. And we know that from the story. We know that he's had to try and rebuild Vignolande and the sea keeps reclaiming it. And so, yeah, he knows a lot, but he doesn't have enough men, and Kirdan isn't in a position to assist.
- [87:24]
A
Exactly. So then we just get the simple restatement of the need for men, but not just to lend to Gil Galad. Like, you know, I'm not just saying, hey, send me a, you know, a battalion of troops. Specifically, your men need to be supporting Eldarion in his efforts here in Middle Earth.
- [87:43]
B
Right. It's sad to read that memories of the First Age are already fading. It's less than 900 years into the Second Age. That is not that long for an Elf. Right.
- [87:53]
A
It's not long for an elephant. I have to say, even though it's long for us, it's not that long for a Numenorean. I mean, if. If we live couple of generations, 80 years, and they're living 300, or the kings are living 400 years. Yeah. So, I mean, if we're looking at that from a, like a mathematical equivalency perspective, 900 years for the Numenorean is like the equivalent maybe of 200, 250 years for us. So, like the establishment of the United States as a country, would. Would the memories of that already be fading? Yes or no. But the point is, if they are fading, that's a sad thing.
- [88:26]
B
It is a sad thing. And, you know, for the establishment of the United States, there's a whole load of documentation. You can go and read stuff.
- [88:34]
C
Right.
- [88:34]
A
Yeah. Was that the case here?
- [88:35]
B
Need for it to fade. Yeah, but it is sad to read that, especially from an elf for whom 900 years is no time at all.
- [88:44]
A
Yeah.
- [88:45]
B
And it's followed by a reminder that the friendship their peoples have goes way back. Now, in fairness, it only goes back another 300 years before that, when Finrod first encountered men. But that is 1200 years in total.
- [88:59]
A
And they didn't. Yeah, especially because they didn't get that long lifespan until after they were given the land of Numenor.
- [89:06]
B
Exactly.
- [89:07]
A
That is a lot of generations. But then we get to this very clear and accurate warning. And this is so important, and it is also so very, very, very central to the rest of the legendarium. Sauron hates us. Gil Galad says he hates you too.
- [89:23]
B
Oh, yes.
- [89:24]
A
And your physical isolation as a distant island is nothing. That is not going to stop him. If he is allowed to grow in strength, if we don't stop him now, now or very soon, before his strength has gained, he will cause you problems. This is so prophetic.
- [89:45]
B
Yes.
- [89:46]
A
So prophetic.
- [89:48]
B
Yeah. And it goes back to what you've been saying about it being an existential threat. Yes. Sauron will eat the world. You know, this is what he really wants to do in some ways. He wants to break. Break Middle Earth to his will. I mean, unlike Morgoth, who wants to cause multiple chaos and just make it.
- [90:11]
A
He wants to burn it all. Sauron wants to control it all.
- [90:14]
B
He wants to control it all. Yes. But that is the existential threat, because he cannot control it all unless he wipes out the elves. Unless he subjugates all of the human race and other races to his will, which, if the elves are gone, is much more likely to happen. So it is an utterly existential threat. Threat. And yeah, being on an island that is not going to help you. Isn't this a really interesting thing to say? This from an author who has seen two world wars and being on an island did not save them.
- [90:48]
A
No.
- [90:49]
B
Right.
- [90:50]
A
Yeah. Once you get to a certain extent of how power can be projected. I also think it's interesting, you know, it is an existential threat for Gil Galad, and he's making it very clear. But we all know with the benefit of Middle Earth hindsight, that the existential threat is greater to Numenor. They're the ones who fall first. Gil Galad only falls at the end, at the battle of the Last Alliance. Because they're fighting Sauron. Numenor had fallen before.
- [91:17]
B
Yes, and not fighting.
- [91:18]
A
Not fighting. Correct.
- [91:19]
B
Not fighting was much worse.
- [91:21]
A
All because your physical isolation as a distant island. Didn't help you when you bring Sauron home.
- [91:28]
B
Oh, boy. Imagine if Gil Galad could have foreseen that.
- [91:31]
A
Oh, my goodness, can I? You know, he had to be like, what are you doing? I mean, there was no more communication because of course, you know, by that point the. The kings didn't want to have any friendship with the Elves. But you know that Gil Galad, when he found out that Ar Pharazon had taken Sauron back as prisoner, was like, you've got to be kidding me, right? Tell me they didn't take Sauron as prisoner. They did. What? They What? Oh, set your clocks. It's going to happen.
- [92:01]
B
We're done. Yes.
- [92:04]
A
So it's just the irony of him presenting us as an existential threat to the Elves and Men of Middle Earth, when it turns out to be an even quicker existential threat to Numenor, is. That's some rich irony right there. Yeah. Then we end the letter with that lovely blessing, which is the other thing that you could include in your email. Wales, Manwe keep you under the One and send fair wind to your sails.
- [92:29]
Gil Galad is such a statesman. I love that.
- [92:32]
B
It's beautifully written. The whole letter is beautifully written.
- [92:36]
A
It is, yeah. Yeah.
- [92:37]
B
But manwe keep you under the One. It's rather lovely. It is, isn't it? I mean, the second part of it is very specifically for numerous.
- [92:46]
A
It is. And it's also very specific to Man, Manwe being the Lord of the Winds. So, you know, it's. You could. I mean, Manwe is really the one that you have to call on to do that. Right. Because he's the High King. But yeah, it is lovely. It is really lovely. Both broadly, may manwe keep under the wand, but also very specifically for Numenor with the wind under the sails. And it's the same thing earlier. Right. The Valar keep you, which is this generic, broad, generally applicable blessing, but may no shadow fall upon the Isle of Kings. Again, foreboding, but specific to Numenor and I. Really?
- [93:23]
C
Yeah, really.
- [93:24]
A
My beautiful letter. Folks, read that letter. There aren't very many letters that are written that well. So there's your example of a good letter. Great email. AI will never write anything like that for you.
- [93:36]
B
Oh, Lord. No. But this is also one of the greatest insights we have into Gilgamesh Jalad, because there's not that much written about him.
- [93:43]
A
No, there really isn't, sadly. Now, he's got such foresight and understanding and a deep knowledge of what's going to happen. Yeah.
- [93:58]
B
This episode is brought to you by State Farm. Listening to this podcast Smart move. Being financially savvy Smart move. Another smart move. Having State Farm help you create a competitive price when you choose to bundle home and auto bundling. Just another way to save with a personal price plan like a good neighbor State Farm is there. Prices are based on rating plans that vary by state. Coverage options are selected by the customer. Availability, amount of discounts and savings and eligibility vary by state. We find Vecna.
- [94:29]
A
We end this once and for all together on December 25th. We have a plan. It's a bit insane. Everyone in he knows where we are. Watch out. Get ready for one last adventure.
- [94:43]
C
We stay true to ourselves, stay true to our friends. No matter the cost.
- [94:50]
A
Found you. Stranger Things Season 5, Volume 2 begins December 25th only on Netflix.
- [94:59]
Kraft Mac and Cheese is the best thing ever. It's even better than popcorn music. You look just as natural enjoying us at age 13 as you do 55. Kraft Mac and Cheese. Best thing ever.
- [95:20]
B
We told you about the amazing PPP community after our earlier break. If you're a part of that community and you want to enjoy something even more special, come and join the fellowship of the podcast on Patreon Patreon. You get to be in the best discord community around. One that includes host hangouts and even live episode recordings.
- [95:38]
A
Folks, your support there really is what enables me to work full time doing all these shows. The ppp, Today's Tolkien Times, Rings of Power wrap up when it comes back and then my streaming show, the PPP plays. I just want to take a second to sort of expand on that. I know we say these boilerplate texts every episode. It doesn't mean we mean it any less just because it's the same way words. And I want you to know specifically, and this, you know, as you're hearing this one. As we approach the holidays, I know it's a hard time for a lot of people as we're recording this, we're, you know, a month into the government shutdown here in the us the economy sometimes has been a challenge over the last couple years. I want you. I want you all to know, I know that I appreciate what you do, that your sacrifice and your generosity enable me to do this full time. And. And I just don't ever want the fact that because I say this every episode, I don't want you to ever think that I take it for granted. So thank you all for your support and for the amazing community you've built up around the show. But yeah, definitely take a look at the Fellowship of the Podcast. You get episode post scripts. We talk about the P5s all the time. Great extra stuff in there. You can get AD free episodes, free merch and a whole lot more, right?
- [96:46]
B
And you can join the Questions After Nightfall episodes or even appear as a guest in the Northwest. So go to patreon.com prancingponypod to show your support and join the Fellowship of the Podcast.
- [96:57]
A
And don't forget to rate and review on Apple Podcasts and Spotify. And please, we really always appreciate it when you recommend the show to your friends. You can do that directly on Spotify now. Literally just sharing the show with your friends. Sarah Manelders Just had to read this letter and we've had a really good look. Look inside Gil Galad's head. Yes, now we're going to get a look inside Meneldur's Take us away, Meneldur.
- [97:25]
B
Let the parchment fall into his lap. Great clouds borne upon a wind out of the east brought darkness early, and the tall candles at his side seemed to dwindle in the gloom that filled his chamber. May ERU call me before such a time comes. He cried aloud. Aloud. Then to himself he said, alas, that his pride and my coolness have kept our minds apart so long. But sooner now than I had resolved, it will be the course of wisdom to resign the sceptre to him, for these things are beyond my reach. When the Valar gave to us the land of Gift, they did not make us their vicegerents. We were given the kingdom of Numenor, not of the world. They are the law lords. Here we were to put away hatred and war, for war was ended, and Morgoth thrust forth from Arda. So I deemed, and so was taught. Yet if the world grows again dark, the lords must know, and they have sent me no sign unless this be the sign. What then? Our fathers were rewarded for the aid they gave in the defeat of the Great Shadow. Shall their sons stand aloof if evil finds a new help head? I am in too great doubt to rule, to prepare or to let be, to prepare for war which is yet only guest. Train craftsmen and tillers in the midst of peace, for blood spilling and battle? Put iron in the hands of greedy captains, who will love only conquest, and count the slain as their glory. Will they say to eru, at least your enemies were amongst them? Or to fold hands while friends die unjustly? Let men live in blind peace until the ravisher is at the gate. What then will they do? Match naked Hands against iron and die in vain or flee leaving the cries of women behind them. Will they say to ERU at least I spilled no blood. When either way may lead to evil. Of what worth is choice. Let the Valar rule under error. I will resign the scepter to Aldarion. Yet that also is a choice. For I know well which road he will take.
- [99:40]
A
There's a very powerful set of insights. It just. Even as you're reading that, I'm just getting emotional feeling the torn in two sense and the helplessness of Meneldor that no decision is a good decision here. We've had a lot of readings over the last eight episodes that are worth worthy of really long and rich discussions. I get the feeling this is probably gonna be another one as we walk through this self dialogue, this decision making process. And I. I love the way the weather sets the tone here as the letter drops to the floor, probably along with Mineldor's jaw. Metaphorically speaking.
- [100:19]
B
Yes. Yeah, I do love a bit of pathetic fallacy. You know, the weather mirroring the mood of what's going on. I mean first of all, all it's from the east. That's always a bad sign because winds would typically be out of the west here. So that's something to note. And it brings heavy clouds. So an early darkness metaphor alert.
- [100:41]
Making even his candlelit chamber feel gloomy.
- [100:44]
A
Yeah. And he begins with just an expression of I gotta admit, this is a feeling I probably would have if I were in this situation. Like I don't want to be here when this happens. That that is the full growth of this hatred.
- [100:57]
B
The.
- [100:58]
A
The servant of Morgoth. Right. That's what he means when he says, you know, may au call me before such a time comes. The time is the time referred to in the letter where even the distance isn't going to save you from this hatred. Yeah, it's really, really heavy.
- [101:14]
B
It is kind of a similar moment to the one that Frodo has, isn't it? It, yes. I wish it had not happened in my time. Isn't it interesting the different choices those two make?
- [101:27]
A
You're right. There's another moment later that. I mean there's. There are a couple of moments in this thought process, two or three, where you're reminded of moments in the Lord of the Rings. Yes, we'll get to those. But this is one I don't think I caught. You're absolutely right. This is very much. I wish this needn't have happened in my time.
- [101:44]
B
And he doesn't want to face it. He doesn't want to be the one making the choices.
- [101:48]
A
No, in the end. And in the end he won't. But he does at the very end where he realizes that is a choice. Still, we'll get to that. It's a tough one. We begin this thought process in Maneldur's head and I really feel like these next few paragraphs give us a sense not only of the wisdom because we know that Meneldur is a wise king. He's said to be a wise king. We get examples of that here, but we get a thoughtfulness and we get a real humanity. He does not want to face this.
- [102:18]
B
No, he doesn't. And he recognizes that in himself. There's more self reflection going in here with this little bit of tar and Eldar than Aeldarion has shown in the entire tale.
- [102:29]
A
100%. Yeah. Yeah. His ability to self reflect and to think through a process is something that we don't see in Eldarion at all.
- [102:36]
B
Yeah, yeah, yeah, that's right. And Eldarion is of course part of the problem.
- [102:42]
A
Yeah, he is.
- [102:43]
B
He laments that he and Eldarion have had their minds apart heart for such a long time. But you know, I just want to remind him that Aldarion being gone has had a fair bit to do with.
- [102:52]
A
I was gonna say, I mean I, I Mineldor, don't be too hard on yourself here.
- [102:57]
B
Exactly. I mean it's very gracious of him to appear to blame them both equally. He says his pride and my coolness.
- [103:06]
A
80, 20.
- [103:08]
B
Yeah, exactly. I don't think there's a 50, 50 split of blame here.
- [103:11]
A
Oh, that's a very gracious indeed. Yeah.
- [103:13]
B
Aldarion is the one who's, you know, slammed out the door more than once over and over.
- [103:18]
A
Right.
- [103:18]
B
And without his father's blessing.
- [103:20]
A
And Meneldr's tried to give him such good wisdom. I mean, I go back to. You cannot wed the sea. You are affianced to Arendis. You've given her your word, son. Does your word mean nothing?
- [103:34]
B
Not his fault that Eldarion has just refused to listen to him on any of those occasions.
- [103:38]
A
Yeah, this isn't like a dad who's just never raised his son and never taught him right from wrong. Wrong. And then wondering why his son's turned out to be not a good guy. This is a father who's given his son great advice. His son just hasn't chosen to listen.
- [103:51]
B
Yeah, but like any good parent, any thoughtful parent who's tried hard. Oh yeah, he's going to blame himself, isn't he, for the fact that his son has turned out to be a jerk. So then he leads with his decision before thinking it through. The course of wisdom will be to give Aldarion the scepter sooner than my original plan. Plan, yeah.
- [104:12]
A
Part of me just wants to ask him why. Is that right? I mean, and I know that's really the. The whole point of the next few paragraphs is to explain the why. But the initial reason is given as these things are beyond my reach. Okay, they are. But are they not also beyond Aldarion's reach?
- [104:30]
B
I suppose he's thinking that Aldarion has a little bit more of a grasp of what might need to be done.
- [104:35]
A
It's true. He's been to Middle Earth, he's been over there.
- [104:37]
B
He's been chatting with Gil Galad over cups of tea and scones. You know, that kind of thing. Been. Yeah, I know, right?
- [104:45]
A
Oh, it's four o'. Clock. It's time for high tea. Aldarian, sit with me. It brings up a little.
- [104:50]
B
Take some Earl Grey. Thank you. I like my sandwiches with a little gray Poupon. Moving on. So I think that there's a sense here that Tarman Elder understands himself, that he is not a walking. That this is not something he's really, really good at.
- [105:09]
A
Yeah, we talked earlier about, you know, the two Aldarians, the Eldarion, when he's there with Gil Galad, he's in his wheelhouse, he's in his element. And that's where he shines. That's where he's at his best. Yes, Meneldur is at his best as a king during a peacetime. And he recognizes this is not. This is not my wheelhouse. What's coming is not where I'm going to be strongest.
- [105:30]
B
Yeah, exactly. Now we get a really clear expression of his understanding of the role of the men of Numenor. They were given this isle, this kingdom by the Valar again for their role in helping defeat Morgoth, the source of this problem that they're still facing.
- [105:45]
A
We come full circle, but they were.
- [105:47]
B
Not made the vicegerents of the Valar.
- [105:50]
A
Now, folks, before you throw a flag on the play and Sarah, that's a sports analogy.
- [105:55]
B
Yeah, I kind of guessed it was.
- [105:57]
A
Before you pull out a yellow card. Before you pull out a yellow card.
- [106:00]
B
Another sports analogy. How does that help?
- [106:02]
A
I tried to give you a sports analogy you might be familiar with, because when I say throw a flag on a play, that's American football. So I figured I would pull the soccer thing and say, before you pull a red card out, what makes you.
- [106:13]
B
Think I have any more interest in football.
- [106:19]
Than I would with, I don't know, people who dress up in armor to play rugby?
- [106:25]
A
All right, well, folks, before you say, what do you mean, Vice chairents? That's not a word. Let me explain. Vicegerent is actually a word. In fact, it's the original and etymologically correct word rather than the more common phrase vice Regent. That's probably what you're thinking. It's what I read. The first time I read this, my brain just said vice Regent. Let me give it a little word nerdery on that. Vicegerent comes from medieval Latin with the elements vicem meaning place and gerens meaning carrying. And it means to carry on in place of. Now, Vice Regent uses that same vice element element, but then uses the word regent for ruler. So in place of ruler. Now, it's not wrong per se, and it means the same thing in actual effect, but the original vicegerent is correct.
- [107:09]
B
Oh, well, you know what? I just love it when you have the opportunity to do some word nerder.
- [107:13]
A
I love doing that. The Etymological Online Dictionary is one of my favorite websites. Right up there with the oed.
- [107:19]
B
Delightful. The point Minelda is making to himself and to us is that the Valar's gift of Numenor did not put the Numenoreans in the place of the rulers of the world.
- [107:30]
C
Right.
- [107:30]
B
And that's something that Aldarion might be struggling to comprehend.
- [107:33]
A
Yeah. It does feel like he's seeing their role as being larger than it actually is. Like Meneldur is, this is our kingdom. Right. He's been telling Aldarion this all along. This is your land. This is your home, this island. And Aldarion is thinking about the future expansion, the glory of Numenor. And this is really the nub of the problem, isn't it? Yeah. So it is definitely something Eldarion is not thinking in that same mindset. So Mineldor acknowledges the continuing lordship of the Valar over the world. Like, yeah, this is our kingdom. But the Valar are still in charge. Manwe is still the High King. Our job here is not to rule the world. Our task, at least as Meneldor sees it, is to put away hatred and war because the war is over and the enemy has been permanently defeated. Right? Right.
- [108:27]
B
Or has it? Yeah.
- [108:28]
A
This is one of those Lord of the R Rings moments, isn't it?
- [108:31]
B
It is. It reminds me vividly of Elrond at the Council. My favorite chapter of the entire. Anyway, after he related the story of the Second Age and the Last alliance, and the text tells us thereupon, Elrond paused a while and sighed. I remember well the splendor of their banners, he said. It recalled to me the glory of the Elder Days. And the hosts of Beleriand so many great princes and captains were assailed assembled and yet not so many, nor so fair as when Thangorodrim was broken and elves deemed that evil was ended forever. And it was not so. Oh, you can't end evil forever. No, it's not how evil works, is it?
- [109:12]
A
No, it isn't. And that's the thing.
- [109:14]
B
Which it was.
- [109:15]
A
I don't. Yeah, we all wish it was. And. And how wonderful it would be if, you know, when Morgoth was. Was cast into. Into the, you know, past the everlasting doors of night that, you know, evil's done, but it isn't that way. And Elrond. Elrond's point, it was not. So there's not really four sadder words.
- [109:40]
And. And here Mineldur is.
- [109:44]
Falsely believing what he was told. I mean, I'm not blaming him for it. I'm not like, he's not naive. He's not foolish. He just.
- [109:53]
B
More hopeful.
- [109:54]
A
Yeah, he's hopeful. Which is funny because that's the reason why Gil Galad didn't tell Eldarion that it's Sauron.
- [110:00]
B
You know, because he was young and hopeful.
- [110:02]
A
Didn't want to burst his bubble. But this is tough. I mean, you know, with Tolkien, there's never an idea of a permanent defeat of evil. Just doesn't happen.
- [110:11]
B
No, no. I mean, we get the words fighting the long defeat.
- [110:15]
A
Exactly. That's what I'm thinking. I mean, it. It's really the other end of the spectrum. It's not that there's ever an ultimate end of a defeat of evil. There's going to be an ultimate end where good is defeated.
- [110:28]
And that's the Circle of Light. And our job is to stand against the evil, regardless of what. Backs against the wall kind of thing. But.
- [110:38]
B
Yep. For as long as we can do that. Yes, 100%, absolutely. But as you said, Meneldor is just, I think maybe being wishful here.
- [110:49]
A
Yeah.
- [110:49]
B
That things. No, I don't have to do anything. The evil was defeated. Let the Valar take care of it. Or something like that. Yeah. I mean, but the thing that he's trying to work out in his head is if this is not the case if the enemy's defeat wasn't permanent, surely the Valar have to know that, Right?
- [111:08]
A
Yeah, that's a reasonable thing to believe. I mean, I admire Meneldur's trust in the Valley Malar. But here's the thing. They. Even if they know, and let's assume they do, they're not going to do anything significant about it. Not, not hugely significant. Right. They're not going to be doing let's send the Vanyar along with, you know, a whole bunch of Maiar into Middle Earth and stomp all over Sauron like they did with Morgoth at the end of the first stage.
- [111:37]
B
Well, they're very hands off, aren't they?
- [111:39]
A
They get more and more hands off, off. And we could talk about this all day long, that their first hands on approach to bringing the elves over was a mistake. And so ever since then they have become less and less hands on, more and more hands off. Now they're still going to do small things or even not so small things. Sending the Estari when things get really, you know, difficult in the Third Age, that's a thing they do. That is very significant. But it is still much smaller scale than what they did to defeat Morgoth.
- [112:08]
B
Yeah, yeah, yeah, that's true. So he wonders if they know, if the Valar know about this, surely they would send a sign and I haven't gotten a sign. Unless this letter is a sign.
- [112:18]
A
Here's your sign.
- [112:21]
B
Yeah, that's the problem though, isn't it? I mean, how do you know if something's a sign?
- [112:24]
A
That's the thing. You only know with hindsight.
- [112:26]
B
It.
- [112:27]
A
In the moment.
- [112:28]
B
It's a bit late by then.
- [112:29]
A
Yeah, that's the problem, right? I mean, how do you know when things are signs? We talked about earlier about the portents. Like okay, if my ship gets demasted by a stroke of lightning, I'm going to take that as a portent, as a sign. But was it or was it just weather? I mean you can make the argument either way and you can really only know in hindsight what I say. Signs. But really this comes back to the idea of fate, right? The intervention does. And you only know looking backwards. And by that point it's, it's, it's too late.
- [113:03]
B
But put Tarmon Elder and Farazon side by side, right? I'm sure Tar would not enjoy that experience.
- [113:10]
A
No, he wouldn't.
- [113:12]
B
But here's Tarmon Elder desperately trying to find a sign, desperately trying to think what a sign might be. Whereas Farazan, surrounded by Signs being beaten.
- [113:21]
A
Over the head with signs.
- [113:23]
B
Will not look at them. Will not see them as anything.
- [113:26]
A
What is that red octagon over there with the letters S, T, O, P on it? I don't know what that is.
- [113:32]
B
No, that's nothing.
- [113:33]
A
That's just the Eagles of Manway. My goodness. Yeah. Yeah.
- [113:39]
B
It's an interesting juxtaposition, isn't it?
- [113:42]
A
These two kings really is. Oh, but poor Maneldor. Yeah, he's in his spot.
- [113:48]
B
So let's assume, just for sake of argument, that the Valar know and, and that this is the sign. Now, the Edain were given this island for their help in defeating Morgoth. So he's thinking, what is our responsibility if evil returns?
- [114:05]
A
That's a good question, right? I mean, he's got to look back and think, okay, we got this place because we helped defeat evil. So if this evil is back.
- [114:13]
Do we have an obligation to return and save Middle Earth.
- [114:18]
Or do we have an obligation to keep the heck out of. Out of it? Like, you know, like that was our role. This. Now it's somebody else's turn.
- [114:28]
It's a tough question. It's a question really, without an answer. It's. And it's this next paragraph here that is the pinnacle of this self dialogue. And really, it's one of the pinnacles for me in all of Tolkien in terms of capturing this. Encapsulating this. This impossible conundrum. Right? This idea of being a pacifist, of being a peacetime king. Absolute pacifism can't be an option for a ruler in Menelder's position. But the worries and concerns that he has about preparing for war, and he identifies them here, they are troubling. They're very real problems.
- [115:09]
B
Yeah, yeah. Because preparing for war means taking skilled civilians, farmers, Smiths, et cetera, and training them for a war that we don't even know will actually happen.
- [115:20]
A
That's a big problem. I mean, you're taking people out of food production, out of commercial product production. You're changing your entire economy. You're turning into a wartime economy for a war that may not even. You may not be playing a role in.
- [115:36]
B
Exactly.
- [115:37]
A
That's going to affect for generations, you know, the economy of Numenor. But the risk is bigger than that. You know, he talks about in his thought, and this is where I again see his insight. Because he's not just thinking economy and macro. He's thinking, not everybody is a good person. There will be greedy captains who love conquest for its own sake. And this is Another one of those Lord of the Rings moments. Because it makes me think of Faramir.
- [116:03]
C
Right.
- [116:03]
A
I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness or the arrow for its swiftness, nor the warrior for its glory. I love only that which they defend. And it such a wonderful statement of I acknowledge the necessity of war, but I do not love what it is and what it does.
- [116:22]
B
It's great wisdom.
- [116:23]
A
Yeah. It's so good. And yeah, if all his captains were like Faramir, he wouldn't have to worry, would he?
- [116:30]
B
But he knows because he's a realist. Right. And Mineldo's fear is that they will kill more than they need to. Almost a kill them all and let God sort them out kind of mindset, which is awful. And it's unacceptable to Meneldor and rightly so.
- [116:45]
A
At least some of your enemies were among them. What a terrible thing to imagine people having to. And I like this because he imagines the people having to own up and acknowledge what they did. Take accountability in front of ERU himself. Will they say to ERU at least your enemies were dead.
- [117:06]
B
We're amongst the millions that we slaughtered.
- [117:08]
A
That we killed all these other people, including people that we know full well Numenor will kill.
- [117:13]
B
Yeah. The ends justify the means, right?
- [117:15]
A
Yep. That's what this is. But, but then we get the other problem. Like, okay, okay, let's say we don't do that because the risk is huge and we don't want to kill innocent people and we don't want to do an ends justifies the means. But not preparing for war. Taking this sort of pure pacifist position means allowing our friends the elves to die unjustly. And then it also means waiting until it's too late for us to fight in any meaningful way. If the war does come on far away, those are two very, very bad consequences.
- [117:47]
B
It really is. Do you know it? It brings me back to. This is Tolkien who lived through two world wars and he would have remembered even from 1960, 65 or whenever.
- [118:02]
A
Yeah.
- [118:02]
B
He would have remembered what it was like in the run up to both the First World War and the Second World War. The First World War was called the Phony War at the start because they didn't think anything was going to happen.
- [118:11]
A
Right. Because what you had a, you know, a guy gets assassinated in what is now Serbia, I think. Yeah. And like, why is that?
- [118:20]
Right. Why do I care about Archduke Ferdinand? Why are we going to be fighting this war And. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
- [118:26]
B
And then with the Second World War, you Have Chamberlain, who pursued a policy of appeasement, because, and I, you know, reading this, I feel like Chamberlain is very maneldorish in a way, a little bit, in that, you know, he felt that the best thing to do would be to keep Britain out of this war.
- [118:45]
A
Because World War I was so terrible. Right.
- [118:48]
B
I mean, it's well within memory.
- [118:49]
A
Yes. And America was the same way. It's why it took Pearl harbor to bring America into World War II, because Americans were like, I don't want that again.
- [118:57]
B
I don't want my sons fighting in that.
- [118:59]
A
I fought that war. I don't want my son fighting in that war. Because it was only a generation later. It's, It's a very real concept concern, but it is. But you take that position and it's a huge risk.
- [119:09]
B
Yeah. It's just fascinating this is being written by a man who would have had such a nuanced understanding of what's going on in Mineldo's brain right now.
- [119:18]
A
100%.
- [119:18]
B
Yeah. Yeah. Because, you know, with all of this he's churning around and around in his head, he understands that, you know, if he doesn't do anything, this would mean being unprepared and fighting an impossible thing. Fight as an unarmed combatant dying in vain. Or even possibly a worse alternative, simply running away in cowardice and fear.
- [119:43]
A
Oh, that was an awful thing to read. But, you know, that's exactly what he realizes could happen. Right. You know, do we fold our hands? Do we just wait and then flee, leaving the cries of women behind them? And what's their accountability? Right. What does he think they're going to have to face? Well, they'll go to ERU and say, well, at least I spilled no blood. Is that worth it?
- [120:06]
B
Is that enough?
- [120:07]
A
You didn't spill any blood, but you allowed by your inaction to cause so much unjust death. There's horrifying consequences for his people and for the elves. I'm not going to say a no win situation, but he is in a very difficult spot because neither decision is really a good decision.
- [120:28]
B
Yeah, there is no.
- [120:29]
A
There is no good decision.
- [120:30]
B
No. Possibly one would be better than the other. But there is no good.
- [120:34]
A
And there's no knowing which one is going to be better. Not at this point, at least. Yeah.
- [120:38]
B
No. This not only reminds me of Faramir and his defense of war for what it defends, not for its own sake. But it also reminds me of Eowyn in her conversation with the Herb Master. You and I, we talked about this back in episode 320. That feels like a million years ago now.
- [120:53]
A
Sure does.
- [120:54]
B
In the Steward and the King. And her life line was, it needs but one foe to breed a war, not two. And those who have not swords can still die upon them.
- [121:08]
A
Wow. And you know. Oh, the insight here. I know. Isn't it? And this ties together that Faramir and Eowyn understanding with Meneldur's tendency to peace and Tolkien's real world experience.
- [121:23]
And his knowledge of what a real world leader would have to decide in a time like this. That conversation we had back in 320 led us to a discussion in the postscript about Tolkien and pacifism. And ordinarily, I let postscript stuff stay the postscript because people pay to get the postscript, so it's not fair to take that out from the paywall. But I have to say I think it's super relevant to our conversation here with Mineldor. So I'm going to go ahead and include some of that conversation here. And it's one where we start started with letter 144 to Naomi Mitchison. This is where Tolkien starts on a conversation about Tom Bobadil, but also about Eowyn's critique. And it's frankly also about Maneldor's concerns about absolute pacifism, though he doesn't name Meneldor, of course. Tolkien explains there that the Lord of the Rings story, quote, is cast in terms of a good side and a bad side. Beauty against ruthless ugliness, tyranny against kings, kingship, moderated freedom with consent against compulsion that has long lost any object save mere power, and so on. But both sides, in some degree, conservative or destructive, want a measure of control. But if you have, as it were, taken a vow of poverty, renounced control, and take your delight in things for themselves without reference to yourself, watching, observing, and to some extent knowing, then the question of the rights and wrongs of power and control might become utterly meaningless to you and the means of power quite valueless. He's obviously talking about Tom very heavily in there.
- [122:55]
B
Yeah. Tolkien then calls this a natural pacifist view, saying that it always arises in the mind when there is a war. And he goes on to say that it's the view of Rivendell that this natural pacifist view is an excellent thing to have represented before then arguing that, quote, there are in fact things with which it cannot cope and upon which its existence nonetheless depends. Ultimately, only the victory of the west will allow Bombadil to continue or even to survive. Nothing would be left for him in the world of Sauron.
- [123:31]
A
And that's the thing. This is so applicable to what we just are reading with Meneldor, because only the victory of the west is going to allow Numenor to continue. Of course we know that Numenor won't continue, but that's another story. But that's explicitly what Gil Galad is telling Meneldor in the letter. The great sea will not be too wide for its wings if it is suffered to come to full growth. This is a set of circumstances that the pacifist approach cannot, as Tolkien said, cope with. With which it cannot cope. It is going back again, existential in nature.
- [124:05]
B
Yes. Because pacifism cannot stand against those who have that destructive mindset. The ones who will just do whatever to take what it is that they want.
- [124:16]
A
Right. And the more power you willingly cede to them, the more they'll take.
- [124:21]
B
Yeah. Think about what Gollum says about Sauron quite a few years later than this. He says he will eat it all if he can eat all the world.
- [124:29]
A
Eat all the world. That is indeed Sauron. And yet we say that. And it sounds like a critique of the pacifist position that Meneldor is considering here. But Tolkien points out in that letter that Rivendell believes this view is an excellent thing to have represented. It is a good thing. It's not a thing that can be held all the time under all circumstances, but it's such a good position that it needs to be represented. It needs to be considered. And if anything, it's the ideal. It's just an ideal that, like so many other ideals, can't exist in the real world world.
- [125:05]
B
Yeah. It can be achieved under some circumstances, but there are some circumstances in which it just. It cannot be.
- [125:11]
A
It cannot be. And this is one of those. And it's such a hard spot for Meneldor. But I absolutely have loved this discussion with Meneldor. Like getting in his head here and watching him go back and forth and argue both sides to himself. Such wise self reflection and consideration.
- [125:30]
B
Yeah. Like we said, we're missing that in Eldarion, so getting it in Minel Elder is really, really useful.
- [125:36]
C
Yeah.
- [125:37]
B
Now, talking of all this self reflection, he concludes with a genuinely terrifying question. When either direction could lead to an evil outcome of what worth is choice.
- [125:49]
A
Wow.
- [125:50]
B
Oh, boy. Considering that choice is at the heart of Tolkien's legendarium.
- [125:55]
A
Yeah.
- [125:56]
B
The choice is so incredibly important in all circumstances.
- [126:00]
A
And yet here.
- [126:03]
Another Lord of the Rings moment comes to mind. Aragorn saying, I don't know which way I'm going to choose? Every way I've chosen seems to go wrong. I can't make a right choice here.
- [126:12]
B
Yeah. And yet in the end, choice is necessary. We must make choices. Yes.
- [126:18]
A
Sean and I used to say all the time, because we'd quote the Rush lyric to free will. If you choose not to decide, you still have made a choice.
- [126:27]
B
Yes, yes, indeed. And in fact, that's actually pertinent to later on in the letter.
- [126:32]
A
Exactly.
- [126:33]
B
And the other question is here, when Manilda is lamenting of what worth is choice, is this comparing apples to oranges in terms of possible evil outcomes?
- [126:44]
A
That's a good question. I mean, the evil outcome to war is. Oh, I don't know. I mean, it's comparing apples and oranges only in the same sense that it's a different quality, not a different quantity, because they're both very bad. Right. Death of innocents King. You know, captains who revel in the glory of war, a wartime economy. But on the other hand, our friends the elves are dead. We're going to die in vain. We might as well not exist.
- [127:16]
C
Right?
- [127:16]
A
That's tough. That's a tough call. I mean, the problem is he the king, and ultimately the buck stops with him. And no disrespect to Meneldur, who here. I love this thoughtfulness. I wish this thoughtfulness about war was more common amongst rulers. Oh yes, so much. But this paralysis by analysis in a way leads to his decision to resign the Scepter early. And it is early. Make no mistake. Elros's son Vardimir was 379 years old. Now that's a little different when Elros surrendered the Scepter. Now, granted, that was Elros himself. Vardimir's like, never mind, mind, dad. I'll just pass this to your grandson.
- [127:53]
B
Yep. So Vladimir is 379 when he surrenders the Scepter to his son Tar Amandil. And he was 398 when he gave it to Tar Elendil. Now, tar Elendil was 390 when he passed it to Manelda. But Minelda is talking about surrendering the Scepter when he's only 340. And that's a good 40 to 50 years before he ordinarily would.
- [128:17]
A
That's right. And that's reflected in the fact that he lives almost 60 years years after giving Eldarion the Scepter. The other kings before him, Tara Lendil and Taramandil, they lived 11 years and 13 years respectively after giving the Scepter. Because traditionally, you didn't give the scepter over until you were entering that time of senescence, of genuinely old age, when the Numenorean ages would then go back to normal speed because they slowed down from 20 all the way until near the end of their lives. And you would feel that coming on. And they say, okay, time to hand on the scepter. He's doing this a lot sooner. And by passing that choice and responsibility to Aldarien, he knows, to some degree, he knows, that he's making the choice to prepare for war, because he knows, and he's right, that that is precisely the choice Aldarion will make. So, in a way, is this menelduar acknowledging that between those two terrible choices, the right choices to prepare for war. But he knows he can't do that, so he. He avoids making that decision directly because of the potential for evil.
- [129:26]
B
There's a little bit of an element of passing the buck here.
- [129:30]
A
There's a little bit. Yeah, I know. I. I love Manel Dur, but he's not perfect. And I do feel like this is a little bit like.
- [129:38]
I don't want.
- [129:39]
B
To take the country to war, so I'm going to hand on the scepter to someone else.
- [129:43]
A
Do that. Now I could totally understand if he were to say, we're going to prepare for war. I'm going to. I'm going to start that process, and then I'll hand it off to my son for the execution, because he is better at that. At least that way. You are the one who made the choice, Manelda. You're the one who takes the responsibility, who's then accountable to ERU for it. Right. Will you go before ERU and say, I didn't want to make a choice so I passed the buck? Because that's kind of what I'm getting. Getting here.
- [130:10]
B
Yeah, there is a definite feeling of that.
- [130:12]
A
Yeah.
- [130:13]
B
Now, in the text that we skipped, he wonders if maybe Arendis would convince Eldarion to take the pacifist approach.
- [130:20]
A
Maybe if they still. Maybe if they were still talking to.
- [130:22]
B
Each other, that would help. But, yeah, I don't think so. Then thinking about horrendous causes him more trouble because he realizes how their views are, as they are on so many other things. Completely opposite.
- [130:35]
A
Exactly.
- [130:36]
B
So that's not helpful.
- [130:37]
A
No, I mean, he does know that. That she would choose not to prepare for war, but that her position wouldn't matter to Aldarion. Right. He will not bend in such grave matters. Dude, he doesn't even bend for Non grave matters.
- [130:49]
B
So, yeah, there's no bending here.
- [130:51]
A
There's none. None at all.
- [130:53]
B
But he claims to know Arendus choice. Do you think he's right?
- [130:57]
A
I don't like that he presumes to know, but I think he is right. I mean, she's. She's very much of this isle. You think about the way she talked to Eldarion like, I love all that grow in this isle. I feel like he sees her devotion to Numenor as being rather similar to his own. Like a little bit, arguably a little bit isolationist. Not a necessarily bad way, but in a way that would maybe be a little naive facing this threat kind of.
- [131:31]
B
Hobbit like about the Shire.
- [131:32]
A
Hobbit like. Yes, I think so. That's a good. That's another good analogy.
- [131:37]
B
But some of the Hobbits understand that to protect.
- [131:42]
A
Yeah.
- [131:42]
B
That home, you have to leave it and you have to do something.
- [131:46]
A
There's a cost, you know.
- [131:47]
B
And I do wonder if AIs would have understood because she's not given the opportunity to tell us.
- [131:52]
A
No, that's the thing.
- [131:53]
B
She's not, you know, she is very much all about Numenor. Numenor is her home. She loves Numenor. She's all about that. But would she have understood that? Well, for us to keep Numenor, we may have to do this.
- [132:05]
A
Yeah, yeah.
- [132:06]
B
Like I said, she's never given the opportunity.
- [132:08]
A
That's the thing. So I'm not sure. I mean, he's correct in the sense that that's where she would stand if she were asked right now. But if she were to know all of the facts we don't know.
- [132:16]
B
Yeah, yeah. He claims to know Erandus motivation. That her love for Numenor and only Numenore and all would keep her from understanding the cost to others. You know, for the elves and the men of Middle Earth. I'm not sure that's fair to Arrindis.
- [132:30]
A
I think again, it's all because she doesn't have that knowledge yet. That's where she would stand right now. But would she stand there still if she were given the information? If Gil Galad were to be able to sit down with her and give her a briefing on what's happening in Middle Earth, if she were, let's say, queen and she had to make that call? I don't know. I mean, she is a courageous woman.
- [132:48]
B
Yes.
- [132:49]
A
Stubborn as can be. She'd certainly die for her choice. She's, you know, made that clear. But his situation is different because he's not an individual person who has an opinion. He's the king who has to lead. And that's where we don't know what Erendis would do.
- [133:07]
C
Right.
- [133:07]
A
If she were. If she were to, you know, be in that. In that position of having an influence on Aeldari and essentially leading him towards a choice. That's different. That's different.
- [133:19]
B
Yeah, yeah, I agree. I agree that he. He realizes that she doesn't think that way, perhaps can't think that way, but also doesn't need to think that way.
- [133:28]
A
That's true.
- [133:29]
B
And that leads him to wonder what she would do with and for others, concluding he's simply gonna have to wait to find out all of this.
- [133:36]
A
Even the valor are gonna have to wait to find out all this. It's an interesting ending to that little section.
- [133:42]
B
It is. But I think it's time to get to our final section for this episode.
- [133:46]
A
Yeah, we're already running along, but this is a short one, I promise, folks. Okay. In fact, it's. It's like, why are we having this as a separate reading? It's super short. Eldarion came back to Romenda on the fourth day after Hiralande had returned to Haven. He was way stained and weary, and he went at once to Ambar, upon which he now intended to. To dwell. By that time, as he found to his embitterment, many tongues were already wagging in the city. On the next day, he gathered men in Romendna and brought them to Armenelaus. There he bade some fell all the trees, save one in his garden and take them to the shipyards. Others he commanded to raze his house to the ground. The white elven tree alone he spared. And when the woodcutters were gone, he left. Looked at it standing amid the desolation, and he saw for the first time that it was in itself beautiful. In its slow elven growth, it was yet but 12ft high, straight, slender, youthful, now budded with its winter flowers upon upheld branches pointing to the sky. It recalled to him his daughter, and he said, I will call you also. Uncanny. Calimeh, may you and she stand so in long life, unbent by wind or will, and unclipped.
- [135:06]
B
Hmm. Yeah. Super short reading.
- [135:09]
A
A little bit to unpack here, though.
- [135:11]
B
Yeah. I mean, with our episodes reaching over two hours lately, we felt that this might be a good fit. Plus, it didn't really go with what we just read.
- [135:18]
A
Yeah, no, certainly. Or even what comes after it. Which next time you'll find out. It's the conversation between Eldarion and tomorrow Harm and Eldor.
- [135:25]
B
Yeah. Now in a rapid turnaround, Aldarin is back only four days after he'd sailed Girolonde into the Romana harbour. Now recall that when he came back, he went to Mineldorf first and then he left in a snit, riding all night to get to Emerie.
- [135:40]
A
So that's night one on the horse and then night two he spends at the white house at Orendis. White house. If he's cold, call for fire.
- [135:48]
B
Now night three would have been at higher Astourni, but he rode off from there as well. So night three would have been on that poor horse on the way back.
- [135:56]
A
That is a lot of riding. In fact, I put in my notes probably around 250 miles. But I realize now it doesn't take into consideration how much further here Storny is from America, so it's probably more in the neighborhood of 350 miles in just a few days. The horse must be a mess. So it's no wonder that he is, you know, wasted and weary. The dude has been on horseback for 350 miles in four days and he's.
- [136:23]
B
Yeah, he's gonna be walking like John Wayne.
- [136:25]
A
Seriously, he slept on the horse for two nights. Or maybe on the the ground somewhere. Yeah.
- [136:30]
B
So he heads to his new bachelor pad, the houseboat, which suggests that as big as Hiralonde is, it's nowhere near as comfortable for a long term stay as a ambar.
- [136:41]
A
Good point.
- [136:42]
B
Yeah. And as tired as he must be, he's still alert enough to tell that rumors are already spreading in the city.
- [136:48]
A
Tongues are wagging about you. Yeah. So day five after his return, he gets some men together and he heads to his old home. And this, this is sad. This is ugly.
- [136:59]
C
Yeah.
- [136:59]
B
This is horrible.
- [137:00]
A
It is just really, just awful. And very telling. He has them cut down all of the trees in his garden to use for lumber, for ships. So, you know, again, so much for son of trees, Eldarion.
- [137:12]
B
Yep. And then on top of that, he has them level the house all together. So he's erasing every single bit of his life with the rendice except for the one tree given to them as a wedding gift. He couldn't bring himself to actually get rid of that one.
- [137:27]
A
Right.
- [137:28]
B
And standing alone, he finally, hello, Eldarion, finally sees its beauty. You know, the tree. Beautiful as a tree rather than simply as a source of wood. It's 12ft tall, it's straight and slender with budding winter flowers.
- [137:45]
A
It's beautiful.
- [137:46]
B
It's A gorgeous tree.
- [137:47]
A
It's a gorgeous tree. And yeah, I mean, I'm remembering when the elves brought it. And he's like, oh, this must have really good wood.
- [137:52]
B
And they're.
- [137:53]
A
And their response was, we wouldn't know. We've never cut one down. Like, what are you thinking? What is wrong with you, man?
- [138:02]
B
Good lord. Yes. So if only we'd had the answer to that question way back then.
- [138:07]
A
Seriously. So the tree was given to them for their wedding. That was 12 years ago and it's now 12ft high. The text suggesting this is due to its slow elven growth. Not going to come as a surprise to you that, is it? A little recently research, did you. You went down a rabbit hole, maybe 12ft. In 12 years, it's a foot a year. That's. That is indeed a little slow. But it's not really unusually so.
- [138:28]
B
Yeah. Because fast growing trees, willow trees, poplars and the others, they can grow 3 to 5ft a year or in fact even more than that when they're young. But slower growing trees like oaks, they'll maybe hit two to three feet per year.
- [138:41]
A
But some trees like white pine and others can grow like 1 to 2ft a year. So a 1 foot per year rate doesn't seem like, you know, unnaturally slow. It's just a slower growing tree.
- [138:53]
B
Yeah. Which perhaps is fitting as it comes from the elves, right?
- [138:58]
A
Exactly. Time is different.
- [139:00]
B
Exactly. But it's not just its inherent beauty that saves this tree. It's the fact that it reminds him of his daughter, Ankalime. Oh, you remembered her then. Aeldarion. Isn't that nice?
- [139:10]
A
Isn't it?
- [139:11]
B
Yeah. So he names the tree and Calime. Yeah. Now question for you, Aldarion. How can the tree remind you of a person with whom you've spent what, five minutes in the last five years?
- [139:23]
A
Yeah, that's true. I mean, he's gone for five years.
- [139:25]
B
That tree reminds me of my daughter.
- [139:27]
A
The daughter that I saw for five minutes who doesn't even know she's my daughter. Five years. Which I'll add, also represent more than half of her entire life.
- [139:35]
B
Oh, daughter. The year here.
- [139:36]
A
Oh, yeah. I mean he's right up there with Denethor. In my book on in terms of parenting, not good. He ends wishing both the tree and his daughter stand so in long life, unbent by wind or will and unclipped. I wanted to get your take on that. I mean, I think unbent by wind or will is pretty straightforward, right?
- [139:57]
C
Yeah.
- [139:57]
A
Be stubborn like I am stubborn. You know which by the way that's also her mother's trait. I don't know how he doesn't see that. It's no less hers than it is his. But what is unclear clipped mean here.
- [140:10]
B
To you that nothing gets in her way of being who he thinks she's born to be. So nothing to stand in her way. No laws, no traditions, no anybody to actually clip her wings to stop heard.
- [140:31]
A
From doing what she wants to do. Because I, your loving and wise father have had people try to clip my wings all my life. Telling me I can't sail, I can't cut trees down. I can't go. I shouldn't go. I should only go for two years. Yeah. That's.
- [140:47]
B
But the fact that he doesn't see that he is responsible for clipping arendes wings.
- [140:51]
A
I know.
- [140:52]
B
Oh irony much?
- [140:53]
A
Yeah, yeah yeah yeah.
- [140:55]
B
But you know this thing that he wishes here that his daughter should stand so in long life. All good.
- [141:00]
A
Y. Yeah.
- [141:01]
B
Yeah. Unbent by wind or war. Will. And unclipped. This is. This I think is a prescription for somebody who is going to be all the worst parts of Eldarion with all the worst parts of Arendis. Stubborn beyond belief. Listening to nobody. Nobody able to stop it. This is not what I would wish.
- [141:25]
A
For my do I want my daughter to grow up and be so unbelievably stubborn she won't listen to anybody ever about it. Anything that she'll never ever ever change her mind.
- [141:37]
B
Yeah. Unbent by wind. So nothing about the world or nature or anything. Yeah. And will. So that's other people.
- [141:47]
A
Yeah. Yeah, yeah. Don't let anybody. Look, I get it. Be true to yourself or you know, all the other sort of. Sort of you know, trite sayings. But you're. You don't live in a vacuum. And here he is hoping that she will grow up to not give a damn about anybody else.
- [142:06]
B
To be as selfish as he is and self centered and self serving and all of those self worth.
- [142:12]
A
Do what you want, anytime you want. Don't let anybody ever stop you from doing what you want. Even though there is some good in that. In the sense that. Don't let somebody crush your dreams. Don't let somebody tell you that you can't do this. But don't grow up as selfish as I'll be. Darian. Like don't.
- [142:29]
I'm thinking if I'm him and I've been this stupid all along, maybe I finally got a clue. I come back and I think I hope my daughter learns from my Foolishness and will listen to people who care about her. But that's not what Eldarion's gonna say. No.
- [142:46]
B
No. What he's hoping is essentially not just follow your dreams, but follow your dreams and tread on anybody you need to on the. The way up.
- [142:56]
A
Yes. Step on everybody. Don't care about the consequences to anybody else. The only person that matters is you.
- [143:05]
B
Yes.
- [143:05]
A
That is what this is.
- [143:06]
B
This is not how you should live in the world. This is not a good thing to wish upon your child. This in fact, is what good parents. I hope I'm a good parent, try to teach their child is not a good thing. What's one of the first things you teach your children? Sharing.
- [143:24]
A
Yeah. Oh, yeah.
- [143:26]
B
You have to share your toys, your sweeties, your. Whatever you share because you. You have to teach your child to exist in the world and that there are others in the world around you and it doesn't all revolve around you. Correct. And so sharing is one of the biggest first lessons that you teach your kid.
- [143:43]
A
100. Yeah.
- [143:44]
B
I don't think that Ankala May has been taught this lesson.
- [143:47]
A
Oh, I don't know. There's another kid for her to share anything with, but we'll get to that.
- [143:52]
B
You know, taking that to the. The macro level, she hasn't been taught how to live in the world amongst other people and have empathy.
- [144:00]
A
And that's sad because I think. Well, I mean, it's sad for a hundred reasons, but it's not her fault. I'm thinking of the fact that Arrandus once had that.
- [144:08]
B
Yes.
- [144:09]
A
You think about how much she did care for Aldarion, for his desires to do these things. But then he took advantage of that so much that her. That it's now she's cold. She now has zero empathy for anyone. She's. She's lost it completely. He's broken her. And now that she's broken, Ankara may be broken.
- [144:30]
B
Yeah. She could hire. Could have broken out of that generational trauma that we've talked about that was undoubtedly passed down by her own parents.
- [144:38]
A
Particularly her mother, Nuna the Great.
- [144:40]
B
Oh, boy. Yeah. So she could have broken that cycle.
- [144:44]
A
Yeah.
- [144:44]
B
But Aldarion actually has prevented happening.
- [144:48]
A
Right.
- [144:48]
B
He's made it worse, perpetuated it. Which means that. And Calume now is caught up in the generational trauma. And as we'll find out, she can't break that cycle either.
- [144:57]
A
No, she can't. We will have a lot more to say about generational trauma in the future episodes. In the meantime, Barnaman gathered men in Bree and brought them to the pony. There he bad. Some throw away all the junk mail in his garden and take them to the trash. Others he commanded to open envelopes. Sara, what does Barlabin have in his bag for us today?
- [145:17]
B
So I have a question from Andy H. In London, and he asks, isn't the tale of Aldarion and Lorendes just a domestic tragedy?
- [145:25]
A
Oh.
- [145:26]
B
And how does it stand against other domestic tragedies in Middle Earth?
- [145:30]
A
Ooh. It is primarily a domestic tragedy. Yes. I mean, that's it. But what we just read today in today's episode is what takes it out of pure. Purely that genre, if you will. Right. The connection to Gil Galad, the decisions that they're going to make. A lot of it is stuff that if Tolkien had finished it, I think we'd see more of that because we'd see more of Aldarion's reign.
- [145:55]
But it is indeed, at its core, very much this tragedy, a family tragedy.
- [146:02]
B
It is. It's just that this particular family tragedy is going to have so such consequences, such ramifications that will reverberate down the years.
- [146:11]
A
It's not as disturbing as, let's say, Turin. Right. I mean, there's a tragedy that's the darkest and most troubling of the family tragedies, but.
- [146:22]
I would put it right next to that as second place for awful family tragedies.
- [146:27]
B
Yeah. I mean, there are some terrible domestic stories. Stories.
- [146:31]
A
Yes.
- [146:32]
B
In Middle Earth. And they're tragedies in different ways. Look how many broken families there are in the Third Age, you know, amongst the Fellowship and. Yeah. I mean, so many missing mothers. Right. So many missing mothers. But if we stay in the First Age, think about Aracel and her forced marriage to Aeon.
- [146:51]
A
Oh, yeah. I think that as a criminal act rather than a family tragedy. But it is. It is, at the very least, that as well.
- [146:58]
B
It's turns into a domestic tragedy, doesn't it?
- [147:00]
A
Big time. Yeah, absolutely. When he goes to kill his son and she ends up sacrificing herself for him. Yeah.
- [147:06]
B
For a son that will end up actually betraying the whole of Gondolin. I mean, the whole thing is just a terrible tragedy, which again, here's a domestic tragedy that has ramifications, real consequences, reverberate down the ages. What is Tolkien telling us about domestic troubles?
- [147:26]
A
It could be solved with better communication and respecting others.
- [147:33]
Yeah. This is such a deeply sad story.
- [147:40]
B
Yes, I agree.
- [147:41]
A
And that's the thing. I really hope folks are. Enjoys the wrong word. I hope that you all are relishing the deep conversations and discussions around Aeldarian Horrendous. Three more episodes to come, go. One more in the story proper, and then two that'll take that further course of the narrative. But it's just, it's not pleasant. It's. It's not a happy story, you know?
- [148:03]
B
Nope. There is no happy ever after on.
- [148:04]
A
This catastrophe here, folks.
- [148:07]
B
Nope.
- [148:08]
A
All right, well, one last thing before we go. A correction or clarification, you might say. Back in episode 385, at the beginning of our run through Eldar and Horrendous, I mentioned my search on eldama.org for the word tyrinia back when Orendus told the Queen and boy, this feels like a million years ago.
- [148:26]
If you will cut the bough from the elven tree, I will bear it to the Haven. And that I had been unable to find the word Turinha. Well, we had a few people write in with some corrections, but the first one came from Baragon, so he's going to get the hat tip today. He wrote in, pointing out correctly, of course, that it is there. It's just not listed under Taorinya. It's under Tara as one of the inflected instances. He explains that is most naturally read as Tari Queen, of course, Ellen Tari, right?
- [148:53]
B
Yes.
- [148:54]
A
So, but then we get the NYA ending. He says that's the enclitic first person singular possessive pronoun. So that's my. So Tarinia is my queen. And thank you Baragon for pointing that out.
- [149:09]
B
Oh, how wonderful that Baragon is listening in. Hi Beregond. I love all the things that you've done and all the Tolkien world I know.
- [149:15]
A
Fantastic folks. Thank you for joining us for another episode of the Prancing Pony podcast. Please come back next week when Maneldor has a shocking decision to share with his son.
- [149:25]
B
Oh, is he gonna make divorce legal in Numenor? No, he's not, is he?
- [149:30]
A
But he could make. He could give Aldarian the authority to do that by, I don't know, handing.
- [149:35]
B
On the Sept. Well, we'll find out. Okay. In the meantime, Allan and and I want to thank the members of Team PPP Editor Jordan Reynolds Barleyman, Becca Davis, social media manager Casey Hilsey event and Patreon community coordinator Katie McKenna, graphic artist Megan Collins, video editor Jonathan Lacens, who's helping us get episodes up on YouTube and website Guru Phil Dean.
- [149:59]
A
And please take a minute to check out the prancingponypodcast.com that's where you'll find show notes, outtakes, and Prancing Pony pod wanderings. We are still changing vendors for our merch. Hopefully by the time you hear this, our online storefront will be back up and running. But when it is, you can get all sorts of cool PPP merch there, including stuff with the amazing chapter art that Megan's been doing for us for three plus seasons. I love her art for Eldara and Arendus. Gorgeous.
- [150:22]
B
Me too. Oh yes. I've been absolutely drooling over it. Now, we're all about the books here at the Prancing Pony Podcast, so be sure to also visit our library page. And we try to make sure that any book we've mentioned on the show is linked there for you to purchase. And we do get a small amount of compensation when you make your purchase, so thank you for that.
- [150:39]
A
Indeed. And we also want to thank our patrons at the Kirdan's contribution tier. I'll start with Demay in Alaska, Chad in Texas, Lance in New Jersey, Joseph in Michigan, Kathy from North Carolina, Brian in the uk, Jerry from Washington, Irwin from the Netherlands, Ben in Minnesota, Anthony in Texas, Zaksu in Illinois, Joshua in Massachusetts, Lucy in Texas, Erica in Texas, Vivian in California, and James in Massachusetts.
- [151:06]
B
Now there's also Ann in Kentucky, Sean in New Jersey, Mason in California, Maureen from Massachusetts, Olivia in London, Robert in Arizona, Nick in Wisconsin, Lewis in South Carolina, Thomas in Germany, Craig in California, Kevin in Massachusetts, Bruce in California, Joe in Maryland, Scott in California, Jeffrey in Michigan, and Paul in Colorado. I thank you all so very much for your support.
- [151:32]
A
Indeed. Thank you. Like I said earlier, especially in difficult times, don't ever want you to ever think that I take y' all for granted.
- [151:40]
B
No, we really appreciate everything that you do. Now, make sure you don't miss any episodes of the Prancing Pony podcast. Subscribe now through Spotify, Apple Podcasts, Amazon Music, or your favorite podcast app.
- [151:51]
A
And one last thing. As always, don't forget to send your thoughts, comments, and most of all, your inner debates about preparing for war to Bartleman. I don't know if I'm ready for those. For people, please.
- [152:03]
B
No.
- [152:03]
A
Yeah, I don't think anybody's gonna be quite as thoughtful as Maneldor, but do send them to barliman@the prancingponypodcast.com Now, Barliman.
- [152:11]
B
Does have a lot of mail to sort through, though, so we try to get to you just as soon as we're able.
- [152:15]
A
Indeed. As always, though, this has been far too short a time, ironically, to spend among such excellent and admirable listeners. But until next time, however.
- [152:26]
B
Farewell, folks.
- [152:39]
A
Sa.