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- [00:00]
A
Folks, earlier this year I got to introduce you to the softest and coziest sponsor we've had here at the ppp. Lola Blankets was really impressed when they sent me mine. It felt soft and stretchy and super cozy. In fact, I've decided I'm going to give a few of these as holiday gifts. They're luxurious and they're perfect for those folks in your life that really enjoy being cozy. Lola Blankets are blankets done right too. They feel like fur, but really it's an ultra soft luxury vegan faux fur with a four way stretch. They're machine washable, double hemmed and they stay flawless with no pilling or shedding even after repeated washes. Their blankets are already big, but if you want massive, Lola calls their extra large blankets the biggest blankets on the Internet and at seven and a half feet long I think they might be right. They've got matching pillows too so you can save when you bundle. They also have weighted blankets for those calming vibes, but I have to tell you the regular blankets are already nice and heavy to begin with. Perfectly personal, beautiful blankets make for great gifting. Cozy, thoughtful, honestly perfect gifts, especially for that one person that's otherwise impossible to shop for. So give the gift of softness this holiday season with Lola Blankets for a limited time our listeners are getting a huge 40% off their entire order at Lola blankets.com by using code pony at checkout. Just head to lolablankets.com that's L O L A blankets.com and use code pony for 40% off. Now after you purchase they'll ask you where you heard about them. So please support our show and tell them we sent you. Folks, we've talked on this show before about the importance of mental health. I've even talked about how therapy has helped me personally. It's helped me grow and manage my stress more effectively. And while telehealth has made taking care of your mental health a bit more accessible, the process is still really hard. Finding the right therapist, getting sessions scheduled around your life, and of course the high cost. And that's where RULA comes in. Rula makes quality mental health care easy and affordable. They accept most insurance plans with average co pays of only $15 a session. Rula is a great way to access carefully vetted providers. You answer a few questions and get matched with one of their more than 15,000 licensed therap and psychiatrists across the country and schedule your session often as soon as the next day. They are in network for most insurance plans and they are committed to Helping you reach your therapy goals. So go to rula.com pony to get started today. That's R U L A.com pony for quality therapy covered by insurance. Thousands have already trusted Rula to support them on their journey toward improved mental health and and overall well being. Head on over to rula.com pony to get started today. After you sign up, they'll ask you where you heard about them. Please support our show and tell them that we sent you. Go to r u l a.com pony and take the first step towards better mental health today. You deserve quality care from someone who cares. Oh, the car from Carvana's here. Well, will you look at that? It's exactly what I ordered. Like, precisely. It would be crazy if there were any catches. But there aren't, right?
- [03:30]
B
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A
Because that's how car buying should be with Carvana.
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B
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A
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- [03:58]
A
Good evening, little masters, and welcome to episode 393 of the Prancing Pony podcast, where I will go from this mis enchanted aisle of podcasts where hosts and their insolence would have listeners cringe.
- [04:11]
B
Wow, that sounds like one of your one star reviews.
- [04:16]
A
One of the two. I'm just. No, I wish that were the case. Well, if Eldarion doesn't like the show, frankly, that's fine with me.
- [04:22]
B
Yeah, that's okay. Anyway, folks, pull up a bench in the common room and join us. I'm Sara Brown, the shield maiden of Rohan, and I'm here with the man of the west who will use his days to some purpose elsewhere where he is not scorned more. Welcome in honor Alan Sisto.
- [04:38]
A
Just give me the keys to my houseboat. Let my frat bros join me. All right, folks, join us for Maneldor's mic drop moment as we return to Unfinished Tale and finish part of the story in our 9th of 11 episodes on Eldarion and Orendus. And that's right, we kept pushing discussions off to the next episode and we're still going over two hours, so we figured we just add one more.
- [05:00]
B
Yeah, I mean, can you really have too much Alan and Sara? Is there such a thing as that.
- [05:05]
A
You might have too much Aldarian and horrendous? I mean, it is. We are kind of. Yeah.
- [05:10]
B
Now, folks, no matter whether you came to Middle Earth through the Books, the films, the TV show, or something else. Each of you is welcome here in our common room. The Prancy Pony Podcast Cast continues in our 10th season of Reading and talking our way through Middle Earth with conversations, digressions, and even some speculations, not to.
- [05:27]
A
Mention a few puns and bad jokes here and there. But our purpose is to dive deep into the lore, discuss the story, our favorite characters and themes, Tolkien's inspirations, and a whole lot more.
- [05:37]
B
And while we take the work seriously, the same really can't be said about ourselves. We're just a couple of friends chatting at the pub. And we're glad you've joined us.
- [05:45]
A
Indeed we are. And I'm sure you'll be glad you joined as well. But before we get to tonight's chapter discussion, it's time for fan favorite Philology Fair.
- [05:59]
B
And we'll start with the names. All Quenya, of course, of Aeldarion ships. Now, way back in the story, we read about his first voyage, not on his own ship, but on that of his grandfather, Veantur. And that ship was named Numero Ma, translated for us in the text as West Wings. The numen element is the one you're familiar with from the name of the island itself, of course, Numenor or Westland.
- [06:23]
A
I'm beginning to think, though, that maybe that television show could have should have just been called Numero.
- [06:27]
B
Wouldn't that have been awesome?
- [06:29]
A
Or Numeromah, because that was West Wing, singular. And that's what I'm going to get to here, because it's combined with the plural form, Ramar of Rama. Wing. Now, we only see the singular of Rama in the name of the ship that Tuor and Idril sailed on to Valinor era. Me Seawing, the plural Ramar. You might remember that from a line in Galadriel's Lament, which means long years, numberless as the wings of trees. I don't know what trees she knows of that have wings, though.
- [07:00]
B
Oh, yes, that's.
- [07:01]
A
That's a. That's an interesting metaphor, now that I think about it.
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B
That. Yeah, I'm not sure what to do with that.
- [07:07]
A
The wings of trees. Very interesting, says Treebeard, moving swiftly on. Yes, please.
- [07:16]
B
Now for the name of the first ship he had built shortly after he founded the Guild of Venturers. And when he had no mind to live upon land, he built Aambar. Now, we touched on this at the time, but its literal meaning is sea dwelling from Ar sea, or Great sea, as in Arendil, and the element mar, sometimes Mbr, meaning home, dwelling, habitation, as in Valin, Mar, El Mar, and other Mar.
- [07:48]
A
And also Umbar is the. That's where. That's, I think, the only time I can think of where we do get the B. In Mbar. Even the steward, Mardil, his name, where it's in the. The beginning of the name that means devoted to the house. So then we get the next ship, and it's when he built a vessel greater than any made before, that ship he named Palaren the Far Wanderer. But if you think we'll leave you with that bare translation, think again. That's the whole point of philology fairs. As we often see, there are simply two elements here. In this case, both are likely to be familiar to you. The first is Konya Palan, here with the end dropped, and it means far, as in Palantir, Farseer, or those that watch from afar, the seeing stones. The second element is ran, which means wander, stray, meander, go on uncertain course. This is a great element. We see this in a few words that are familiar. Rana is the Noldorin name for the moon. It's Quenya for the wayward. Now, we typically know the moon better by the name given it by the Vanyar, which is also Quenya Isil, which just means the sheen. You might recognize Ran from one other word, the name of our good friend Gandalf Mithrandir. It's Sindarin there, but ran is the common Elderan root.
- [08:59]
B
Then there's the other ship that Aldarion built with Tolkien once again immediately providing us with a translation. Soon after the great ship set sail from Romenna Girilonde. He named it Haven Finder. Now, this was the one he sailed in without the blessing of the king and without Orendis sending the green bough of Return. We've mentioned the londe element, meaning haven a few times, and we also see it in the harbour he built in Middle Earth, Vignalonde, which means simply New Haven. We also see it in the name of the most beautiful of all, the havens of El Donde, the Green. Now, that's a quenine, meaning haven of the Eldar. And you might also remember it from the kinslaying at Alqualonde, the city of the Teleri, which means Swan Haven or Haven of the Swans.
- [09:45]
A
That's right. Now, the first element's a little different, Hir. It sounds familiar, but took a little bit of work to find out more on it. As with a number of other Quenya elements, we find it in Galadriel's lament. Not surprising, because that is the biggest piece of Quenya extant in the Legendarium. And it's in the closing lines there. If you listen, you'll hear it. Nemariye nai hiruvalie valimar na elie hiruva namariye. So nai hiru valie. Valimar means maybe thou shalt find Valimar. And that same hir element is repeated in the last line. Maybe even thou shalt find it. So that's haven finder.
- [10:24]
B
Wonderful. And now we want to do a little bit on the flowers the Eldar brought to the doomed wedding of Valdarion and Arendis. They tried.
- [10:34]
A
Yeah. Well.
- [10:35]
B
Well, you know, the Eldar graced the wedding of Arendis for love of the people of the Westlands who were closest in their friendship. Their ship was laden with flowers for the adornment of the feast, so that all that sat there when evening was come were crowned with Eleanor and sweet Listuin, whose fragrance brings heart's ease.
- [10:55]
A
What a beautiful time. I mean, yeah. What a party that must have been.
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B
I do note, by the way, they came for Arendes, not for Aldarion.
- [11:03]
A
They came for Arendes and for the love of the people of the Westlands, like the entire region for them. Now, we don't know much about Liswin, but a translation note in the Road Goes Ever on, and that's the one that's got the music with Donald Swan. It's the one that Tolkien wrote. Some really cool translation notes.
- [11:20]
B
Lovely book.
- [11:21]
A
Very lovely book, and gives us a lot of insight into Galadriel's lament, as well as into Quenya and Sindarin as a result. There he's looking at the line Mi oromardi Lisa Mirvorova. And Tolkien translate Lisa mirvor as sweet nectar or sweet mead. So it seems likely that the element lys is an unattested cognate to the koenya element lyse, which means sweet. In Flora of Middle Earth, Walter S. Judd and Graham A. Judd write that Lisuine was perhaps an herb.
- [11:53]
B
I'm sorry, what was that?
- [11:54]
A
Let me try that.
- [11:55]
B
Let's try that one one more time.
- [11:57]
A
Present company. I almost forgot.
- [12:01]
B
I'm here to remind you. It's okay.
- [12:03]
A
That Lisuine was perhaps a herb with white, fragrant flowers. Lisuine grew on the Lonely Isle and was never established on Numenor. As far as we know, its sole occurrence in Middle Earth was at this momentous wedding. And of course, I had to read it as a herb because that was a direct quote from the Judds. I'm going to still call it an herb. But the Judds, if I'm quoting them, I have to do them justice. Sure.
- [12:29]
B
Anyway, I love the effect as it's described. Whose fragrance brings heart's ease. Isn't that gorgeous?
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A
Could use a little that.
- [12:36]
B
A little Middle Earth aromatherapy. Sounds wonderful.
- [12:41]
A
It does indeed.
- [12:42]
B
On the other hand, we know a bit more about Eleanor. Back in the chapter Lothlorien Haldir brings the fellowship to Kerin Amroth Wherever bloom the winter flowers in the unfading grass. And one of those is the flower Eleanor?
- [12:56]
A
That's correct. Now, it's one of those Elvish words we hear a lot. And of course, it's easy to say because if it's English, sound alike name, it all sort of runs together. But stop and look at the construction of the word. It's very simple. But you'll see that it's made up of two very familiar Sindarin elements, L for star and anor for sun. And that's pretty much exactly how Eleanor is translated in Parma, el de Lambaran 17, where Tolkien tells us it means sun star.
- [13:22]
B
Now, of course, Eleanor isn't just a flower. When Sam and Rosie's first daughter is born, Sam gives her the name Eleanor. I mean, after all, hobbits do tend to name their baby girls after flowers or jewels, as we read in Appendix F. But Sam has just gone on a huge adventure and has returned an elf friend enchanted by his experiences. So he doesn't want to choose just any ordinary flower name. He chooses an Elvish flower name for a flower that's associated with fairy and the elves. So it's both traditional and also completely original.
- [13:55]
A
Absolutely. And it's a lovely one at that. So let's go ahead and pick up the reading where we left off last week. Sara, start us off.
- [14:02]
B
I would love to. On the third day after his return from Emeria, Aldarion sought the king Tarmen. Eldr sat still in his chair and waited, looking at his son. He was afraid, for Eldarion was changed. His face was become grey, cold and hostile as the sea when the sun is suddenly veiled in dull cloud. Standing before his father, he spoke slowly, with tone of contempt rather than of wrath. What part you have played in this, you yourself know best, he said. But a king should consider how much a man will endure, though he be a subject, even his son. If you would shackle me to this island, then you choose your chain. Ill I have now neither wife nor love of this land left, I will go from this mis. Enchanted isle of day dreams, where women in their insolence would have men cringe. I will use my days to some purpose elsewhere, where I am not scorned. More welcome in honour. Another heir you may find more fit for a house servant of my inheritance. I demand only this. The ship Girolonde and as many men as it will hold. My daughter I would take also, were she older. But I will commend her to my mother. Unless you dote upon sheep, you will not hinder this, and will not suffer the child to be stunted, reared among mute women in cold insolence and contempt of her kin. She is of the line of Elros. And no other descendant will you have through your son. I have done. I will go now about business more profitable thus far. Menelda had sat in patience with downcast eyes and made no sign. But now he sighed and looked up. Aldarion, my son, he said sadly, the king would say that you also show cold insolence and contempt of your kin and yourself. Condemn others. Unheard of. But your father, who loves you and grieves for you, will remit that the fault is not mine. Only that I have not ere now understood your purposes. But as for what you have suffered, of which, alas, too many now speak. I am guiltless, Arendus. I have loved. And since our hearts lean the same way, I have thought that she had much to endure. That was hard. Your purposes are now become clear to me, though, if you are in mood to hear aught but praise. I would say that at first your own own pleasure also led you. And it may be that things would have been otherwise if you had spoken more openly long ago.
- [16:46]
A
And I really like this Mineldur guy.
- [16:49]
B
Yes, he is a wise dad, but let me just say the measure of.
- [16:53]
A
His son he does. But I don't think Eldarion is in a mood to hear ought but praise.
- [16:58]
B
No.
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A
Like, pretty much ever. But, you know, we'll get to that. I love this. This place. The Disenchanted Isle of Daydreams. It reminds me of the island of Misfit Toys, actually.
- [17:07]
B
Honestly, it just sounds to me like he's stomping around having a toddler tantrum.
- [17:12]
A
As he so often does. I know, I. I know we're getting a little bit of grief. Like, hey, okay, enough with the Eldarion bashing. But, hey, enough with Eldarion being a jerk, right?
- [17:21]
B
You don't want to get bashed. Don't behave like an Egypt.
- [17:24]
A
Exactly. The thing is we're not. If there was only one moment where he acted like a jerk and we had to bash him for that, then that's what we would have done. But the thing is, Tolkien gives people plenty of chances to do the right thing. He's given Aldarian about a million chances, and he still isn't doing it. So, I mean, again, we'll bash her. End us when it's our. When it's her turn. And we have already. And it's coming up again when we get that. That long. Welcome to the Man Haters Club International letter that we're going to see in a week or two.
- [17:52]
B
Yes.
- [17:53]
A
But, you know, I mean, all I got to say is this is not our fault. This is Eldarion's fault. Okay.
- [18:00]
B
Very, very much so.
- [18:02]
A
So he's been back in town for three days now. Long enough to demolish the house and tear down all the trees. And of course, we know it was the fourth day after he got back from sea when he arrived back in Romana. So now it's been a week. Just a week since he got back. Yeah.
- [18:17]
B
Some total normal behavior there from a grown man, but completely.
- [18:20]
A
Yeah. For a man well over 100 years old. Yeah.
- [18:23]
B
Yes. And it also means it's been a week since Manelda opened that letter, and he's had time to ponder what he will do. Remember he said of what worth is choice.
- [18:34]
A
Oh, I love that line. Of what worth is choice. It's such a tough spot for him to be.
- [18:38]
B
Yeah.
- [18:39]
A
So when Eldarion shows up, Maneldor sits and waits for him. And I like this because he's not telling him right away, and I think that's a good move on his part. But as Eldarion approaches, we get a very interesting reaction from Neldor. He begins to be afraid. He sees these changes in his son, his air. They're intense. They're very visible changes. His face is cold and angry.
- [19:03]
B
Yep. And he even speaks not with anger and intensity, but a really cold contempt.
- [19:10]
A
Yeah. I. Mineldur, you kind of wonder what he's thinking about at this point. Like, well, I've already written it down. I've already decided this is what I'm going to do. But is this really what I want to do? Is he going to inherit the throne? Because he kills me first. You know, this is a bad situation. And we've talked before about how the. The opposite of love isn't hate, it's indifference. And that almost feels like this is where he's at. He doesn't Hate his dad. He's contemptuous, just like cold.
- [19:41]
B
It's going to hit Mineldor on two levels, Right. First of all, the. The hurt that his own son could be like this to him.
- [19:51]
A
I know.
- [19:52]
B
And secondly, this is the heir to the throne.
- [19:56]
A
Yeah. That's got to be worrying when you're the king. Yanks.
- [19:58]
B
Yes.
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A
Especially when you've made the decision that we'll see he's made.
- [20:02]
B
Yeah. Indeed. Now, Aldarion starts by, as I see it, putting some of the blame of his failed marriage at his dad's feet. But of course he does, because it's everybody else's.
- [20:11]
A
It's always everybody else's fault, isn't it?
- [20:13]
B
It's not his. He says what part you have played in this. Okay, well, what exactly is this referring to?
- [20:20]
A
Yeah, I mean, clearly it's the events of the preceding week. From his wife and daughter not showing up to Ramenda to greet him, to horrendous coldness at his arrival in Emeria to Ancalame, not knowing or at least not acknowledging him as her father. And like you said, this is just Eldarion blaming everybody but himself for the consequences of his own actions.
- [20:39]
B
I know. I don't know what he's expecting here.
- [20:42]
A
It is troubling.
- [20:43]
B
He turns up years late after deciding he's gonna go off anyway. Totally against all the traditions.
- [20:50]
A
Five year mission when he said he wanted two years. Totally against culture, totally against the sort of unwritten rule of you don't leave when your kid's that little.
- [21:00]
B
Yep. And now he's sulking because he left when his kid was really little and now his kid doesn't know that's dad. Shocker.
- [21:08]
A
Yeah. You leave and disappear for more than half the kid's life. And that's likely to happen. Yeah.
- [21:14]
B
Yeah. Mom, who's that strange man?
- [21:16]
A
Yeah. I mean, it doesn't help like we talked about before, because we will bash a Rendus when it's. When it's her turn. You know, she. She's done a terrible job at raising Unkalame. Absolutely unjustifiably, you know, cold and remote and. And isolating and purposefully trying to not talk about Eldarion, as though not talking about him is going to make him not exist.
- [21:40]
B
Exactly. And maybe there was a part of it that kind of hoped he no longer would at some point. I think that Arendis has absolute reason to be furiously angry with Aldario, but you don't pass that damage down to.
- [21:55]
A
Your kids, because the actions that he's. The things that Arendes is upset at him about, hurt by him about are his actions as. As her husband.
- [22:05]
B
Yes.
- [22:05]
A
And. And she still needs to do what she can to preserve the father daughter relationship instead of to sabotage it. It's not that he's been blameless in that relationship either, but that's in Kaname stuff to deal with, not horrendous stuff.
- [22:17]
B
Yeah, I know. So when we've been talking about how we've been bashing Aeldarion. We've totally been bashing Aeldarion because he totally deserves it.
- [22:24]
A
He totally deserves it.
- [22:24]
B
But we do recognize that Arendis has not behaved well. Awesomely.
- [22:30]
A
No, no, she is not.
- [22:32]
B
No. I mean towards Eldarion, I think that she is pretty much blameless in her response to Eldarion's behavior.
- [22:40]
A
Yes. I mean, there have been times in the relationship that she's made some missteps, Right?
- [22:46]
B
Yeah, but very human ones.
- [22:48]
A
Exactly. And here though, what she's doing is. Is like you said, sabotaging a father daughter relationship that will end up having repercussions throughout the rest of Numenorean history.
- [22:59]
B
Absolutely.
- [23:00]
A
You know, in some ways, as. As much as we bash Eldarion, most of his damage, with the exception of what he does in Middle Earth, is short term damage. Most of what horrendous does is long term.
- [23:11]
B
Long term damage. Yeah. Well, we will get to obviously talking about the long term damage that is caused with ankalame, but. Oh boy.
- [23:22]
A
Yes. So in the meantime, Aldarin is arguing. Look, there's only so much a man can take, especially that man's as me. You know, whether he's a subject of the king or even the king's son. And that a good king, of course, would take this into account.
- [23:38]
B
Okay. Do you know what I hear here? I hear somebody who should be on his own bro podcast or spouting rubbish on definitely about how he's a high value male.
- [23:52]
A
There you go. He's also going to be the type to complain about the male loneliness epidemic.
- [23:56]
B
Yes, yes, yes, that's definitely his problem. Females, because they never address them as women, our females should recognize him as.
- [24:05]
A
A high value male, high value man.
- [24:08]
B
And other nauseating rubbish. But let's move on from Sara makes up a broadcast.
- [24:14]
A
Yeah. Picturing aldan in the 21st century. I don't want to do that.
- [24:18]
B
Oh, you know he would be a bro, don't you?
- [24:20]
A
Of course.
- [24:21]
B
He just would. Anyway. Anyway. Now this is where Aldarion makes clear what his complaint is. Well, his many complaints, but this particular one is based on, it's not, oh, you won't let me do my job or you banned the Venturers or anything like that. No, this is entirely and completely about horrendous.
- [24:42]
A
I know. That's what's crazy about this. There's some sort of suggestion here or implication that somehow it was Mineldor that chose Orendus for Eldarion. Right. If you would shackle me, you choose your chain. Ill. Where is he getting this from?
- [24:56]
B
He's getting this from. It's got to be somebody else's fault.
- [25:00]
A
Yeah, yeah.
- [25:01]
B
You know, I mean, Minelda was happy for Arendis to be the chosen person, sure. But he didn't throw Arrendice in Eldarion's way.
- [25:10]
A
He was even like Eldarion, don't give her that stone unless you're intending to marry her. You know, you need to watch out because you're given signs that you're not backing up. I mean, gave him plenty of chances to back out.
- [25:24]
B
Yeah. If, If.
- [25:25]
A
Until. Until he'd been betrothed, of course.
- [25:27]
B
Yes. Out of the three people, Aldarion and his father and his mother.
- [25:33]
A
Oh.
- [25:34]
B
I think his father is one of the least to blame here.
- [25:37]
A
I mean, if you want to blame mom maybe a little bit, you know, because she's the one who kept sort of scheming to bring like, she's the one who brought her into court and, you know. Yeah, she's definitely got a role here, but not Mineldor. That's weird.
- [25:49]
B
No. I'd even hesitate to put too much blame on Mum because Mum just wanted to find.
- [25:54]
A
I'm just saying more in relation to Maneldor, but not actual blame.
- [25:57]
B
That's. Yeah, because his. His blame is just so. So low to the ground.
- [26:02]
A
Which is why shortly he's gonna say, as for what you're complaining about, I'm guiltless.
- [26:07]
B
Yes. Yeah. And he's totally right about it.
- [26:09]
A
Yeah.
- [26:10]
B
Now, this next line, I think this is deeply troubling.
- [26:15]
A
Yeah.
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B
I mean, sure, we get that you don't have a wife anymore. Well, you don't really want one, do you?
- [26:21]
A
Ever did.
- [26:22]
B
But you now have no love of this land remaining. You're going to be king and you don't love Numenor. That's a problem.
- [26:31]
A
That is a real problem. I mean, this idea I have now, neither wife nor love of this land left. How in the world do you go from I've been rejected by my wife, who I clearly rejected through all of my actions, to I no longer care about the island where I'm supposed To be the king. This is problematic at best.
- [26:55]
B
Very. And it's no wonder that Mineldur is so worried, because like I said, it's on two levels. This is the guy who's supposed to be the next king. And for him to say he has no love for Numenor, I mean, he's going to be hopeless as a king if that's the way he's going to be.
- [27:10]
A
He's clearly much more focused on Middle Earth, which, look, I understand he's been exposed to Gil Galad, their friends. He's. He wants to do what he needs to there. And we've talked about this. It's amazing because it is important historically, what he does in Middle Earth. His relationship with Kiran and all of that is foundational for the end of the Second Age. It doesn't excuse his behavior. But once again, it talks. It shows the complexity of these characters and Tolkien's ability to write a character that you can't just say one dimensionally is a bad guy. Top to bottom.
- [27:42]
B
Yes.
- [27:43]
A
It doesn't suggest that he's going to be a very good king for the people of Numenor. So, yeah, he moves on now to his solution to this problem, doesn't he?
- [27:54]
B
Yeah. Like he has every other time there's been a problem. His solution is, I'm going to leave. Of course he is.
- [28:01]
A
Of course. Now, granted, he does say it more poetically than he has before. And I have to say, this Mis. Enchanted Isle of Daydreams is truly glorious prose. Even if Aldarian's wrong and kind of a jerk for saying it. It's glorious. I love the way he phrases that. But I think we're probably gonna. I say we. I mean, you. You're probably gonna want to spend some time on this line about where women in their insolence would have been cringe. So I'm gonna give you, like, 30 seconds. Fire away, Sarah.
- [28:29]
B
That's 10 pence in the Sara. And let me.
- [28:31]
A
Yeah, well, 10 pits in the Sar, but also with a little bit of a. Like a. A limit, because it's a show. I've got the hook off stage ready to pull you back up.
- [28:43]
B
And I don't bl. I mean, I put my Aldarian voice into that line when I was reading it, but my lip was curling as I was reading it because everything behind this is such a toxic idea of women anyway, isn't it? Because women in their insolence behind that is the assumption that women are less.
- [29:10]
A
Than him anyway, that they owe him. Yes. You know, Whatever. Did some sort of submission or some sort of obedience, obeisance, really.
- [29:20]
B
Exactly. So he's annoyed because he's irked because horrendous doesn't. Not only does she not accept that he has done what he has done like a good little wife, quietly, submissively accepting that she's actually gone the other way.
- [29:42]
A
Yeah, yeah.
- [29:42]
B
And said, no, this is not okay. And here are the consequences of your actions.
- [29:47]
A
You're going to take two years. Just tell me you're going to take two years. Don't ask. But also keep your word. You're claiming descent from Tuor and Airendil. Those were good men. Yes, be a good man. Keep your word.
- [30:01]
B
But what people like this don't like is being made, one, to face consequences for their actions, because how dare you give me consequences for your action. For my actions. And secondly, be made to look in a mirror and see that somebody doesn't think they're awesome. And the only way that someone like Aldarion can cope with this is to dismiss and demean. And that's exactly what he is doing here.
- [30:31]
A
Even with her not present.
- [30:32]
B
Even with her not present. Yes, but this is classic, isn't it? This is classic. Both abusive and narcissistic behavior is to say, everything that's happening here is somebody else's fault. I'm the good guy here. Everybody else is doing things that are wrong. And I cannot believe that someone so far beneath me has the insolence to try and call me out on my behavior. What about them and the way in which they are behaving? I mean, it's just disgusting.
- [31:06]
A
It really is. And you know, I think back to the, like, the only moment I can think of in the text. And again, I know this is off the top of my head, so I made. There may be another one where he acknowledges that maybe he's done something wrong is when he says, you. You have reason to run from me and I would understand if you did, but I'm asking you to stay. Like he's. He's saying, I get that I've treated you poorly and you have every excuse to not listen to me, but that's before. That's ages.
- [31:35]
B
They actually get married.
- [31:36]
A
Yeah, it's before they own her and.
- [31:38]
B
Now she should do what she's told.
- [31:40]
A
Exactly. I also really dislike the fact. I mean, I would dislike it even if he said where horrendous in her insolence would have me cringe. That would be bad enough. But to take this and make it universal where women, you know, all women is. The unwritten part. Would have men. All men cringe. Makes this even worse.
- [32:01]
B
Yes.
- [32:02]
A
He's. He's not just saying, I am above her and she owes me something and therefore she's being insolent. All women do.
- [32:10]
B
Yes.
- [32:10]
A
To all men.
- [32:11]
B
Yes.
- [32:12]
A
This is the misogyny that we've talked about.
- [32:14]
B
Very much so.
- [32:16]
A
It's really, it's gross. Talk about cringey.
- [32:19]
B
First century parlance. He's talking about how, you know, alpha males.
- [32:25]
A
Yeah.
- [32:26]
B
Alpha males would never accept this kind of behavior from females.
- [32:30]
A
He'd be at the. The front line of the repeal the 19th amendment movement.
- [32:34]
B
Yeah, exactly. And kind of men who would accept this are. What's the phrase they would use? Simps or beta males. Because this is the kind of language that they use. This is exactly that kind of toxic masculinity with a lovely thread of misogyny through it that I'm afraid this is not confined to Tolkien's time or anything like that. We very much see it today. But it's just interesting, isn't it, to see it mirrored through Aeldarion here with almost exactly the same kind of language.
- [33:05]
A
I mean, like, how can you possibly defend the people who are upset with us for bashing Eldarion so much? I get it. Because it's been many, many, many, many weeks. Like I said, it's been many, many weeks where he has deserved it. Defend this. Write in and defend this, if you will.
- [33:19]
B
Yes, please.
- [33:20]
A
How is this. Okay, I just want to hear from you on that. Anyway, let's move on, because we must.
- [33:26]
B
Yes, yes. So he says, no, no, he's going to go do something else, somewhere else where he is more welcome in honor. Okay, well, where's that?
- [33:38]
A
Yeah, exactly. Where is that going to be? I'm going to tell you right now. Because if Gil Galad finds out that you've abandoned your wife and daughter and abdicated your responsibility as the heir to the king, he's not going to think very highly of you anymore.
- [33:50]
B
I don't think so either.
- [33:51]
A
His high esteem is going to lessen.
- [33:54]
B
Yes. But I can't imagine that Eldarion is going to land on the shores of Middle Earth and say, hey, Gil Galad, mate, let's crack open the beers. Because you know what?
- [34:02]
A
Those women things he's not going to say for 500, Alex.
- [34:06]
B
Yeah, exactly.
- [34:07]
A
I mean, it's possible that Meneldor would send Gil Galad a letter through Aldarion that would, you know, remain sealed, because Aldarion would know better than to try to Break that seal. But that's the only way that Gil Galad's even going to learn about this. So Gil Galad's always going to have high opinion of him. Only because it's an uninformed opinion.
- [34:26]
B
And that's it, isn't it?
- [34:27]
A
But, yeah, more welcome in honor is definitely. He's talking about Middle Earth, where, you know, even the High King of the Noldor looks up to me.
- [34:36]
B
Yes, but isn't it telling that to find someone who holds him in honor, he has to leave Numenor?
- [34:46]
A
No wonder he doesn't have any love left for this island. It doesn't seem to have a lot of love left for him.
- [34:50]
B
That's it. I mean, it does go both ways, doesn't it? Yeah. Now, clearly, of course, leaving means leaving the opportunity to become king. Go find another heir, someone who'll do what you say. Or as he puts it, more fit for a house servant.
- [35:06]
A
The venom he's spitting towards his dad is really inexcusable.
- [35:09]
B
It's just nasty.
- [35:11]
A
This. This thing here, though. I mean, the idea of, you know, I'm gonna go and leave and find somebody who does what you say. Come on. I mean, Mineldor has given you so much leeway, more than you deserved. Yes. He has tried to reign you in on occasion. I mean, the times where he said, nope, stop cutting down trees for boats. Okay, Nope, so stop with adventurers thing. Nope, you can't sail. Yeah, he's tried, but he's given you so much leeway, and you've had minimal consequen come back and he gives you a raise and a promotion. So I, you know, to come down on your dad like this doesn't make any sense to me. But instead he says, yeah, I'll make you a deal, Pops. I'll get out of your hair. I'll leave this island. All I ask is you let me take the ship, Hiral. Now, I find that interesting because in the last reading, last week, he went to go live on Ambar, and we talked about how that makes sense. It's a houseboat. It's a more comfortable place to live. But he wants the ship that will get him the furthest away. And Hirolanda is the big adventuring ship.
- [36:05]
B
Yeah.
- [36:05]
A
Of course, he also wants as many guys that fit in it. And I'm like, well, how densely do you want to pack the ship? Maybe this is like the Numenorean ships on rings of power. And it'll hold like, oh, the ones with submarines, 300 horses. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Tardis ships, in which case you'll be able to hold thousands of guys.
- [36:24]
B
Yes. Yeah. Certain guys will follow him still.
- [36:30]
A
Yeah.
- [36:31]
B
Here's another thing. He says, mum gets my daughter. Like he's the only one who can make choices about what happens to his child. This is the same Al Marion, by the way, who seemed to coddle Aldarion. So take that for what you will.
- [36:46]
A
That's right. I mean, we'll actually see that in the very next episode. We'll read that she indulged on Calumet as she had indulged Aldarion in his youth, revealing quite a bit about kind of who he is and in some respects why he's the way he is.
- [37:01]
B
Yes. Yeah. Now he says, unless you dote upon sheep, you will do this. Okay, your thoughts on that one, Alan?
- [37:11]
A
I feel like this is a. I tell you, I will give a Darien some credit. He's very good at these sort of insults. This is not just saying, you know, unless you're a backwards country guy who, you know, instead of this cultured king. He's also digging on the fact that Maria is the sheep country. This is. This is double layered. But yeah, he's. You will allow this. And he's putting his father on the spot by doing this. Like, yeah, it's not will you do this? It's you will do this. Unless you're an idiot. Unless you, you know, absolutely have no sense whatsoever. That's. Once again, he's manipulative, as we will see in a little bit.
- [37:54]
B
Definitely. Now, he's not really too wrong on this one. Teeny tiny.
- [38:00]
A
Yeah. On this narrow point about raising Ankalame, he's not entirely wrong.
- [38:03]
B
No, no. I mean, I'm not saying that Almarian is the right person to raise Ankalame, but the way she's being raised right now is truly terrible.
- [38:10]
A
It really is genuinely bad.
- [38:12]
B
Yeah. I mean, it's like I said before, Arendis has every right to be angry with Aeldarion, but the way in which she's raising Ancalame is truly toxic.
- [38:21]
A
So harmful. It's exact. I mean, I know she doesn't know that she's going to become the queen. I get that. But it doesn't matter. I mean, all that means is that the scale of the results will be bigger. But the results to Ankara may are the same regardless.
- [38:34]
B
Absolutely. I do think maybe it's a bit hyperbolic of him to say mute women in cold insolence and contempt of her kin.
- [38:43]
A
There's that insolence again. I think what he. What he really means is women who aren't allowed to talk about me in cold insolence and contempt of me.
- [38:50]
B
You know, love me. You must love me.
- [38:54]
A
Anyway, whatever, Eldarion. This part is interesting, though. Sure, he reminds Mineldor that Ankalame is of the line of Elros, and she's firstborn, but a daughter, just like Silmarion was a couple generations before. But it's this next bit that's just got to hit Meneldor pretty hard, especially in light of what he's just done. No other descendant will you have through your son.
- [39:14]
B
Yeah.
- [39:16]
A
Ouch. Ouch indeed. And. And no, no, he is done, he says. And in fact, this is interesting, and I want to find out what you make of this. I have done. He's put it in the past tense, not I am. I have done. And now he's off to do profitable business. What do you. What do you make of the I have done? Or is that just more of an archaic way of saying.
- [39:35]
B
I think it's a more archaic way of saying it, but it has that effect of just being so utterly done that everything is now in the past. All of that is. He's putting it behind him. He's done with all of it. He's done with marriage, even with being a dad. Like I was just about to say, he's done with being a dad. He is done with being a son. He is done with being the king's heir. He is done with being in Numenor. He is done trying to make people, you know, like him in Numenor. He's done with all of that. So I have done. I am. I'm totally done with that.
- [40:08]
A
All over. All over. You know, last week we talked about the. The idea, the thought that perhaps he was already contemplating making Ancalame his heir. Remember when he was, you know, riding off to Halatan's place and, you know, what was he thinking? Because, you know, we could tell there was something going on. And then he made that comment to her about how she wouldn't always be raised there. Here, though, he's giving up his heirship, which would absolutely preclude that. Any thoughts here? Is this just like an emotional reaction? He's not even considering that, or. I mean, what's his thought process here in giving up the idea of Ankalame becoming queen?
- [40:46]
B
There's a couple of ways of reading this. One is that at this moment, he's being so emotional because he's trying to be cold, but actually he's furiously angry and Anger is an emotion that he's just shunting that to one side. And it's not really part of his plan about how to make himself feel better.
- [41:05]
A
Right.
- [41:05]
B
So there's that. There's also, awfully the fact that really he's only thinking about using an Calumet.
- [41:14]
A
Yeah.
- [41:15]
B
And if he's going to give up the airship, then he's not going to be able to use an Calumet. And so he's just going to not be dad either. And he's just going to. I mean, this is the point. He's about to sail off.
- [41:25]
A
He says he's done. Yeah, you're right. He's just done all together.
- [41:28]
B
He doesn't even want to be dad. But I don't know that he even wants to be dad anyway. It's about being able to use ankalame. And of course, of course his plan is to remove Ancalame from Arendis even though he's not there.
- [41:41]
A
I know.
- [41:42]
B
Just gonna rip her out of her.
- [41:43]
A
Mother'S household and have Grandma take care of her. Yeah. Because he's got the power.
- [41:49]
B
He does have that power. And it's a real abuse of power in my mind. But on the other hand, Ancalume's upbringing in Arendus House is not wonderful.
- [41:59]
A
I mean, he does say something later that I like. We'll get to this idea of she should make this decision by choice. That she will. At least she will choose. So, you know, fine, maybe spend three months at a time. You know, it's not going to be every other weekend sort of thing like 21st century custody agreements a little too far to head out to a mediea. Maybe you spend three months in our mental loss, and then you spend three months in America. And, you know, you get mom and Grandma and Grandpa helping out. Okay, fine, whatever. And then she can decide as she ages where she wants to live. But yeah, you're right. He's just looking to use her in the same way that Arrendus is frankly looking to use her. But Arrendus is using her differently. Using her defensively, because that's all she can do is that defensive use.
- [42:41]
B
Right. And to keep an calume. Because ancalame is all that she's got out of this marriage.
- [42:49]
A
Yeah. I mean, remember when she was like, you know, where is your heir? Where are my children?
- [42:54]
B
Yes.
- [42:55]
A
She expected to have more kids because that, again, would have been the cultural norm, especially of the king's heir, because his obligation is to provide an heir as well.
- [43:04]
B
Obligations. Absolutely. But, you know, none of this is healthy.
- [43:08]
A
No, no, that's true. Top to bottom. It's not.
- [43:10]
B
But there were other possibilities, weren't there? If Aldarion walks away from the. The king's ship.
- [43:16]
A
Yeah.
- [43:17]
B
There's Aldarion's younger sister, Eilanel, and she'd long been married to a man called Orkhaldor.
- [43:23]
A
Right.
- [43:24]
B
And they have a son called Soronto, who is already 83 years old at this point.
- [43:28]
A
Relatively young for a Numenorean, but still certainly of age.
- [43:32]
B
Yeah, yeah. I mean, of course Aldarion would know about this and he would know that Soronto would then, because obviously Elenael can't. But Soronto would then succeed Tarmin Elder as king. So there is somebody else who could step into it.
- [43:47]
A
Yeah. And he knows that it's not like he's going to leave Numenor without a king at all. If they had to go back even a generation before, move over to a sibling and drop down, they could do that. Right. I mean, you know, agnatic primogeniture allows for that. It's just gonna have to be the nearest male heir. Definitely an alternative. And we'll actually see that come into play later on.
- [44:08]
B
Yes.
- [44:08]
A
When he does change the law about uncallome.
- [44:11]
B
Now, finally we get to Mineldormaneldo gets his say.
- [44:15]
A
Yes.
- [44:15]
B
And he has a wonderfully patient and gentle response.
- [44:19]
A
He really does. Yeah, yeah.
- [44:21]
B
Or hard hitting.
- [44:22]
A
Yeah. Oh, yeah. It doesn't pull any punches, but he's. He's still like, he. It's. It's the. The iron fist and the velvet glove.
- [44:30]
B
I think so. Yeah. Yeah. So he'd been listening to his son's ranting, but with downcast eyes. So no eye contact, I'm assuming.
- [44:39]
A
Interesting. Yeah.
- [44:40]
B
Patiently, but without reacting visibly.
- [44:44]
A
Sometimes when you're on the receiving end of a rant, it's just easiest to listen that way because it's. You get caught up in the emotion of the speaker. If you're looking at them and you're seeing their angry eyes or even their crying eyes or whatever. You're not. It's not that that irks you. It's that, okay, I want to listen to. Just listen to the words. I'm just going to close my eyes and listen carefully and stay unemotional and listen to every word. Process it here. I want them to at least be heard right. And I feel like that's what Meneldor is doing here. And I love this because when he does finally look up, he calls him his son right away. And I want to point this out, because in both this rant and the one that took place when he first came back a week ago, Eldarion doesn't once refer to Meneldor as his father, just as his king. And it's sad. It's deeply sad, because it's only in response, later on in this chapter, when Meneldor surrenders the scepter to him, that Eldarion finally softens and calls him father. And it's like, wait a minute. So now you call him father?
- [45:46]
B
So you get some power, you get something given to you, and now you call me Dad?
- [45:51]
A
I think, in fairness, he is actually genuinely humbled at that point. But we'll get to it. But it is really because Mineldor stays that way. He's a humble king to begin with. He's not lording it over his son.
- [46:01]
B
No. And by addressing him as my son, Minilda is clearly already trying to soften the tone of this confrontation and take some of the heat out of it. Right. He continues, in a way, referring back to that earlier conversation when he spoke about Eldarion's other half. These are two men who are both king and heir, but they're also father and son. And that half of the relationship is no less important, at least to Meneldor, than the royal one.
- [46:29]
A
Absolutely. And of course, the king part of Meneldor, the one who's in charge, would say that this idea of cold insolence and contempt of kin is certainly mutual. It's not limited to just the way Hirendes is raising your daughter. You're doing the exact same thing. But, and this is interesting, I'm not sure I could do this. The dad part says, I'm going to set that aside out of love and grief, which I certainly understand. He's sad. I don't know that he's so much sad for what his son is going through as for what his son has now become.
- [47:02]
B
Yes, I agree. Grieving the loss of what could have been.
- [47:06]
A
Yeah.
- [47:07]
B
A family unit that should have been built, a legacy that should have been continued.
- [47:12]
A
These should have been my grandchildren. I should be seeing my grandson now.
- [47:16]
B
Yes. And I think it's understandable that he's grieving that loss, which traditionally in Numenorean culture and society, this should have been what Aldarion was focused on as the king's heir. Get married, have kids, stick around, learn to be the next king.
- [47:38]
A
Exactly.
- [47:38]
B
Yeah. Yeah. So it's a shame. I can understand why he would be grieving that.
- [47:43]
A
Yeah.
- [47:44]
B
Minelda's Humility extends to acknowledging that he did not genuinely understand Aldarion's purposes. But he does point out that the fault for that is not solely his.
- [47:57]
A
Yeah, he takes some accountability. Like, look, I didn't quite get your point. I get it now. But you need to understand it's not all my fault because you didn't communicate this very well.
- [48:08]
B
Well, we know that about. We know that not the greatest community.
- [48:12]
A
But, you know, the whole thing there is that he's still like, okay, I take some responsibility for not understanding you, son, but I reject any assignment of guilt when it comes to what you're dealing with now. That's called the consequences of your own actions, son. Yes, but I gotta say this. Too many now speak about it. If the king has heard that rumors are spreading, he cannot be happy about that.
- [48:36]
B
No. Because the one thing he would want is for his. If, you know, if your son is going to be the next king, you want the people to at least respect him.
- [48:46]
A
Yeah. Instead, they're talking bad about him. This is bad? Yeah.
- [48:51]
B
It is bad. Yes. I mean, here I am, the subject of a king who I don't respect. I know how this feels. And anyway, he speaks about his own love for Orendis, saying they're of like mind. Presumably about the importance of Numenor itself.
- [49:10]
A
Yeah.
- [49:10]
B
And not sailing around exploring Middle Earth.
- [49:12]
A
That makes sense. They are very much both Numenor focused. Which you're king. You should be. And he knows that. If what he, as a father, had endured was rough. Right. Not knowing if or when his son was ever going to come back, he was worried, for good reason, that if that's the case for me as the father, Arendus, as your wife, has had much to endure. That was hard. Yeah. Yeah, he's got a lot of sympathy for her.
- [49:39]
B
Yeah, I think I would agree with that. I think it's something that Aldarion just cannot be brought to see or acknowledge, is that he's wronged Arendys.
- [49:52]
A
Exactly. And the fact that his father feels sympathy for her is not. Not going to make him any happier.
- [49:59]
B
But I get it now. He says your purposes are clear.
- [50:03]
A
What do you think those purposes are? Or at least, what do you think Mineldor sees those purposes as?
- [50:10]
B
Well, the purposes are certainly not, I'm going to stay at home, be a good dad, husband.
- [50:15]
A
We know what they're not.
- [50:16]
B
Yeah, he knows what they're not. But I think that his purposes are about making greater connections with. Outside of Numenor.
- [50:30]
A
Yeah.
- [50:31]
B
With being the one who connects Numenor With Middle Earth. Yeah, doing those sorts of. Those are his great purposes. We've said this before, that Aldarion is not a two dimensional villain.
- [50:46]
A
No, not at all.
- [50:48]
B
There are great things that he has done. And one of those things is that he has extended the knowledge of Numenor beyond their own borders. And he has connected with the High King of the Noldor and therefore has an understanding that there are things outside of Numenor that they need to pay attention to that.
- [51:08]
A
And they absolutely do.
- [51:09]
B
Things are coming.
- [51:10]
A
I mean, like he says, the men of Middle Earth have forgotten what happened a thousand years ago and there are now bad things afoot. Now, he doesn't know that it's Sauron yet, as Gil Galad explained in that letter, but yeah, it's a combination of. At least the way I'm seeing it is very similar to that. His purpose is to create stronger ties to Middle Earth, but also to expand. We see that he's sort of dreaming about the glory and power of Numenor, which isn't a good thing to dream about about necessarily, you know, very expansionist minded, as we'll talk about next episode when we talk about his reign as king.
- [51:48]
B
Yeah. But the conversation continues and Maneldora says, but if you're willing to hear something other than how great you are.
- [51:58]
A
I love that line.
- [51:59]
B
Oh, man, so did I. I mean, clearly Minelda knows his son. Then you should know your own desires.
- [52:06]
A
Also led you your own pleasure. You did what you wanted.
- [52:11]
B
Yes.
- [52:12]
A
And you got to do what you want. So don't. You can't come back and be upset about the fact that the natural consequences of those things have taken place.
- [52:20]
B
And that's exactly what is happening. Elder points this out, that you had this desire, you wanted to do this.
- [52:29]
A
And it's not that the desire itself is evil. Right? The desire to sail and explore, fine, that's a good thing.
- [52:36]
B
But.
- [52:36]
A
But you had a competing responsibility. And that responsibility, that duty, needed to override your pleasure. And you, you chose the pleasure instead of the duty.
- [52:46]
B
Right? I mean, think about this, okay? We as adults function within a world within which there are demands upon us constantly because we're adults and we function within the world. Okay? Wouldn't it be lovely if we could just get up tomorrow morning and say, you know what? From now on, I'm only going to do the things I want to do. I am going to follow my joy, I'm going to follow my pleasures. I am going to shirk all duty. I think your wife would have something to say.
- [53:18]
A
Yeah, not only would family, but I'm thinking like when the bank calls and says, excuse me, where's your mortgage payment? I'm sorry, I've been following my joy.
- [53:26]
B
I'm following my joy.
- [53:27]
A
Well, you're gonna have to follow it in a cardboard box, because we're gonna take cardboard box.
- [53:33]
B
You were lucky.
- [53:36]
A
That totally makes me think of the theoretical conversation between Maedras and Hurin where, you know, Hurin says, you wouldn't believe it. You know, I talked back to Morgoth and he stuck me in a chair and I had to stay there for like 15, 20 years. And Madhras says, you got a chair. Anyway, that's an old joke. I've said it before, but it's a good one.
- [53:59]
B
It's an oldie but a goodie. Just like you, Alan.
- [54:02]
A
Oh, on that note, we do wrap up that segment of the text with the thing that we've pointed out from almost day one. If you just spoken more openly, things might be different. Now here he's talking about if you'd explain things to me, if you'd spoken more openly to me. Once again, what we have here is failure to communicate. Yeah.
- [54:28]
B
Yep.
- [54:29]
A
Over and over. That is the subtitle of all 11 episodes.
- [54:32]
B
Yes, I think so.
- [54:39]
A
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- [57:15]
B
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- [57:47]
A
Now soon we'll get back to Aldarian's epic rant and Maneldor's shocking decision. But before we do, I want to take a minute to thank the amazing community that has grown up around this show. I mean, after all, there is a lot more talk going on at the Prancing Pony podcast than just us.
- [58:01]
B
Just as well. Now the PPP really does have a warm and welcoming listener community. If you've got questions or you just want to talk about how much you love Middle Earth, be sure to check out our common room on Facebook and across all social media. On Facebook, just look for the Prancing Pony Podcast. Now. Yeah, there's a page, but you're going to want to join the group for that great fan community indeed.
- [58:23]
A
Now on every social media platform other than Facebook, we're just at PrancingPonyPod and then you can find us on our subreddit it at R Prancing Pony Pod. And be sure to check out my Daily show, today's Tolkien Times on YouTube and all your favorite podcast apps. Get your daily Middle Earth fix with everything from Tolkien Tuesdays to Third Age Thursdays. Be sure to watch or listen at YouTube.com prancingponypod Now I would love to.
- [58:46]
B
Hear the next part of the tale of Aldarion and Horrendous what's coming up.
- [58:50]
A
I bet you would. I think I can. I can accommodate the king may have some grievance in this. Cried Eldarion now more hotline. But not the one you speak of. To her at least, I spoke long and often to cold ears, uncomprehending as well might a truant boy talk of tree climbing to a nurse, anxious only about the tearing of clothes and the due time of meals. I love her, or I should care less. The past I will keep in my heart. The future is dead. She does not love me or aught else. She loves herself with Numenor as a setting, and myself as a tame hound to drowse by the hearth until she has a mind to walk in her own fields. But since hounds now seem too gross, she will have ancalome to pipe in a cage. But enough of this. Have I the king's lead to depart, or has he some command? The king answered, Tar Meneldur has thought much about these matters in what seem the long days since last you were in Amenalas. He has read the letter of Gil Galad, which is earnest and grave in tone. Alas to his prayer and your wishes, the King of Numenor must say nay, he cannot do otherwise, according to his understanding of the perils of either course. To prepare for war, or not to prepare. Eldarion shrugged his shoulders and took a step as if to go, but Meneldor held up his hand, commanding attention, and continued nevertheless, the king, though he has now ruled the land of Numenor for one hundred and forty two years, has no certainty that his understanding of the matter is sufficient for a just decision in matters of such high import and peril. He paused, and taking up a parchment written in his own hand, he read from it in a clear therefore, first, for the honor of his well beloved son, and second, for the better direction of the realm. In courses which his son more clearly understands, the king has resolved that he will forthwith resign the scepter to his son, who shall now become Tar Aldarien, the king. This, said Meneldor, when it is proclaimed, will make known to all my thought concerning this present pass. It will raise you above scorn, and it will set free your powers, so that other losses may seem more easy to endure. The letter of Gil Galad. When you are king, you shall answer as seems fit to the holder of the scepter. Ooh, mic drop. Scepter drop, too, for that matter.
- [61:36]
B
Now, last reading, we noticed that our Darion was speaking with a tone of contempt rather than anger. And that coldness was something Minelda noticed as well, causing him to be afraid. And that coldness, it warms up here.
- [61:50]
A
Oh, yeah.
- [61:51]
B
As Eldarion gets angry, it says now more hotly.
- [61:55]
A
Clearly, the way to get under Aldarion's skin is to say anything good about Orendus at all.
- [62:00]
B
Yes. He's not ready to hear that, I think. It seems to me that Aldarion is acknowledging the validity of Mineldura's grievance when it comes to Aldarion not having spoken more openly to him.
- [62:11]
A
Yeah. It's just that that does not extend to Arendus, who Aldarion says he's spoken to long and often. Now, this is where we have to speculate a tiny little bit. I mean, we don't have a ton of time to speculate if we're going to get through this episode in three hours. But, you know, the story does not ever claim to represent every single word spoken by both of them to one another. So it is theoretically possible that Eldarion is being somewhat truthful here. But what are your thoughts on this idea that he's spoken to her long and often about these things?
- [62:40]
B
Well, I don't know when he would have spoken to her long and often.
- [62:44]
A
You need to be a new in order to speak to her. It's not like you have cell phones. Yeah.
- [62:47]
B
Yeah. I mean, certainly not on the previous visit, the one that he's just had.
- [62:51]
A
Oh.
- [62:52]
B
Because he wasn't there for long enough.
- [62:53]
A
And that did record all the words. There were very few of them. Yeah.
- [62:56]
B
Right. And he was away for five years before that. So I'm. I'm not sure exactly when he might be referring to.
- [63:06]
A
For me, I think it just comes down to the way we see their actions that are written down. It strongly suggests to me that there has not been a history of long and often in terms of his communication, because a lot of what he says she responds to as if it's the first time she's heard this. And yet she doesn't strike me as somebody who's naive or foolish.
- [63:30]
B
No. Maybe he's had these conversations in his.
- [63:33]
A
In his head. He's sort of like, well, I've thought about this while I was telling her one thing, you know, so I must have been telling her that we all think that we communicate differently and often better than we actually do. So I. I think a little bit of that's in play here. I don't know. That's the idea, though, that he's spoken to her long and often. Seems to me to be a bit of a stretch.
- [63:55]
B
Yeah, I. I agree with that. I think he's being a bit disingenuous there.
- [64:00]
A
Yeah.
- [64:00]
B
To be honest. But he then unleashes a torrent of anger directed towards. But spoken to Meneldor because, you know, he's not actually talking to Arendus anyway. And he compares Arendis to a nanny worried about damaged clothes and late dinners. Excuse me.
- [64:18]
A
Wow, that's so condescending. The next bit, though, I want to linger on briefly. He claims to still love her, otherwise he should care less. I'm not sure you keep on using that word. I do not think you know what that word means.
- [64:34]
B
I do not think it means what you think it means.
- [64:36]
A
Exactly. I think he thinks he loves her. Right. I mean, this is. This comes back to some of the other things that he said where, you know, it's clear that he believes in the very. In the moment that he's saying the thing. He believes what he says, but then something else comes along and he changes his mind and his behavior. Right. Oh, I'm. He promises these grand things, but then the opportunity comes and he's off like a shot. It seems like at the time he's convinced himself that he's. He's gonna actually do this thing that he says. I think he's convinced himself that he loves her. But love doesn't look like this.
- [65:11]
B
No, I don't actually knows really what love is. And that's a shame because he has had two loving parents.
- [65:19]
A
He has.
- [65:19]
B
And that, you know, all parents make mistakes, let's face it. Well, yeah, but I don't think he understands what love means when it comes to loving a partner in life where you actually have to give as much as you get.
- [65:35]
A
Yeah.
- [65:35]
B
Because he hasn't done that. I think he. Maybe he loved the idea.
- [65:40]
A
Yes.
- [65:40]
B
Of having this beautiful woman. She is my wife. I can go off adventuring, but she's waiting by the home fires for me. Or, you know, whatever. It's an idea. Yeah, but I'm not sure that he's capable of the reality of it.
- [65:59]
A
Yeah, I think, I think you're right. And I think we'll see more of that later. When he sort of cast this vision of her as, you know, this incredible woman demanding, you know, that a house be built for her and that she should show up and all gloriously dressed with the diamond on her brow and all of these things. It's this idea that he has of her that he loves, not the actual her and certainly not building a relationship.
- [66:25]
B
Yeah, yeah, I think that's right.
- [66:27]
A
So then he argues that the past is a memory, which is true. I mean, hey, that's true for all of us.
- [66:30]
B
Us.
- [66:31]
A
But that the future is dead. And all I can say is dude, that's your fault. But whatever.
- [66:35]
B
Yeah. Now this next line is arguably true now. But he doesn't stop to think about why. Sure, she doesn't love Aldarion anymore. I think that's quite understandable. Yeah, but he says that she loves aught else. I suggest that's likely completely true. It's quite possible she doesn't truly love even an Calume. But that if she doesn't, and it's possibly because his actions have destroyed her capacity for love. Yeah, and you know what? That's not a good excuse for her. And the way in which she's treating her daughter.
- [67:08]
A
No, it does not justify her behavior in any way, shape or form. But I think for him to just dismiss and say she doesn't love anything anymore. Do you not recognize the part you've played in causing her to be that hurt?
- [67:22]
B
I don't think he does, you know.
- [67:23]
A
I mean, she has withdrawn from everything, pulling her daughter with her into total isolation. She's done it because of you, man.
- [67:33]
B
Yeah, but he does not have the self awareness, I think to recognize this. He hasn't demonstrated it anyway.
- [67:39]
A
No, not in 100 plus years. Then he goes on to use this dog analogy that is just wrong on 100 levels. She loves the idea of numenor with him as a tame hound that she can walk. When she gets around to it. Are you kidding me?
- [67:54]
B
That's a misreading of what Arendus wanted.
- [67:56]
A
She waited for you for so long. You're the one who treated her like a dog. Yeah, you know.
- [68:04]
B
Yeah, it's. Is this the tale that he's telling himself to kind of justify his responses, his behavior? I think it is. Because this is nothing like any of the things that horrendous has expressed or done or said.
- [68:21]
A
And not that she's an innocent party altogether. Again, I can lay a lot of the blame for their relationship on her feet, too. I don't like the way that when they're having a tough conversation and they're getting into the nitty gritty, he goes and kisses her on the eyes and she just flutters and says, okay. Or when he comes back and he says, you know, please don't be mad at me, she goes, oh, how can I stay mad at you? Maybe you needed to talk this through a little bit, because you've got some legitimate grounds, you know, like there are some things that she's done, some missteps. But she's never treated him like this.
- [68:57]
B
No. And I think there is a difference between missteps and. Those were missteps.
- [69:02]
A
Yes.
- [69:02]
B
And cruelty.
- [69:03]
A
Oh, yeah.
- [69:04]
B
What he's done is sheer cruelty.
- [69:06]
A
And what he's accusing her here of is cruelty.
- [69:09]
B
Yeah.
- [69:09]
A
And that's not how she's behaved.
- [69:12]
B
No. Not towards him, at least.
- [69:14]
A
Not until perhaps you could make the argument that she's acted cruelly. I just think coldly, but not cruelly on this last visit.
- [69:21]
B
Oh, coldly.
- [69:22]
A
Coldly. Not cruelly, but cold. No, but that's not like this. This accusation that she sees you as window dressing for her fancy life in Numenor is insane.
- [69:33]
B
Yeah. That's not right. That's not how Arendus has been. There are many things, as we've said, there are many things that Arendus has done wrong. This is not one of them.
- [69:42]
A
This isn't. Yeah, I agree.
- [69:43]
B
No. And so he carries on. He says, now she'd rather have Ancalome than the dog because the dog is messy. Well, maybe a kernel of truth here. She will have an Calumet. A pipe in a cage. Like a bird.
- [69:58]
A
Kind of.
- [69:58]
B
Yeah. And Calumet is in a cage of sorts. That is absolutely true.
- [70:03]
A
It's almost like he's creating this backstory to explain why. Why an is being caged.
- [70:09]
B
Yes.
- [70:09]
A
Right. Oh. Oh, I see. He's caging her. She's caging her now because she can't cage me.
- [70:16]
B
And what exactly is Aldarion done to prevent his daughter being caged like this?
- [70:22]
A
Well, you know, if you didn't leave or if you weren't gone for five.
- [70:25]
B
Years, that would not have happened. Yeah.
- [70:27]
A
Heck, if you just come back when you were supposed to, she was in Armenalas with your daughter, ready to greet you.
- [70:34]
B
Yes.
- [70:34]
A
Crickets. I mean, just do what you said and you're all good. This is A whole different story. Forget all the mistakes he's made that we've bashed him for all along and just come back after two years. And this is a wholly different story.
- [70:49]
B
Totally. Because I do think that Arrendis would have forgiven him. She might have gritted her teeth in the first little bit and she might.
- [70:57]
A
Have been like, well, at least you did what I asked you to do. You said you'd come back in two years. I said she would. Your word.
- [71:01]
B
You kept your word for a way to forgive him. Even when he turns up after five years, she was looking for a way to forgive him. And neither of them handled that homecoming very well.
- [71:13]
A
No, I mean, think about. I don't think it would have made a difference to Eldarin because of who Eldarian is. But can you imagine if she was transparent about that and just said, hey, before you leave, you need to know. I was looking for every opportunity to extend grace to you. I. I am ready to forgive you. If you had just shown a little bit of remorse, a little bit of sorrow. You didn't. And so I can't. And we're through here now. But you just need to know I was ready.
- [71:38]
B
But neither of them talk to each other. This has been the major problem all the way along. And yet Arendes should have communicated there better. Aldarion should have communicated at all.
- [71:50]
A
At all.
- [71:50]
B
Yes, exactly.
- [71:51]
A
Exactly.
- [71:53]
B
Yeah. It's just all. It's very sad because in the end, the person who's truly damaged will be Angelame. Because he's not wrong. And Calumet is in a cage. And Calumet is being so badly raised.
- [72:10]
A
As a child to the point where she doesn't even know it herself because she doesn't have the comparison. She's isolated. She doesn't know any different. Different. And we're going to see that generational trauma come. Come home to roost. Not next week, I think, but the week after. When we talk about. After Eldarion's reign, when we then talk about Ancalame's time as queen. But anyway, all this talk about Arrendus has made Aldarion even more mad. So he wants to leave. Do I have your permission, King? Compare that with Meneldur leading again with my son. I just.
- [72:40]
B
Yeah.
- [72:41]
A
The contrast is so sharp.
- [72:43]
B
It is. And the king gets a bit formal. I don't blame him at this point, actually referring to himself in the third person. I suppose royalty is allowed to do that self referential third person thing.
- [72:55]
A
That's true. Maybe that's the only person who can who can refer themselves in the third person.
- [73:00]
B
Sara agrees with that.
- [73:01]
A
Ah, yes. Okay.
- [73:02]
B
And telling him that he's been thinking about the Gil Galad situation all week.
- [73:06]
A
Yeah.
- [73:07]
B
That he understands it's serious and he believes it to be truthful, but he still has to say no and says he cannot do otherwise.
- [73:17]
A
And that goes back to what we talked about last week. That process where he looked at what it would take to prepare for war and what it would look like if he chose not to prepare. And the worst case scenarios under both were both awful. When both courses lead to bad things, he drew that conclusion of what worth his choice. And that is such a heavy phrase, but that's where he's at right now. I don't have. I don't have the knowledge to make this choice, which is literally in the proclamation. But when he gets to that point and he says, you know, I'm going to have to say no, I can't do otherwise. Eldarion literally doesn't care. He shrugs, starts to leave. How much underneath his skin must Aurendis be that he doesn't care about his buddy Gil Galad? Yeah, because his dad just said, I can't do this. I can't prepare for war, I can't help you out, I can't help out Gilgalad, I can't send him his men. And instead of arguing and saying, but dad, Gil Galad needs the men. Evil is rising. The men of Middle Earth need us. He doesn't do anything. He goes, eh, whatever. I don't care anymore. I have done.
- [74:26]
B
Yeah, but how selfish.
- [74:28]
A
Oh, I know.
- [74:29]
B
He's so self centered. And even here, where this is so much bigger than, you know, his marital troubles, this is way beyond that. But even here it's not about me, so I'm just not going to pay attention to it.
- [74:45]
A
Yeah, he doesn't care. Like, okay, fine, so dad, you're not going to make a choice. Whatever.
- [74:50]
B
Yeah, but Mineldor will not let him go just yet. Instead he makes a statement that you just know he's been practicing in the mirror for a few days.
- [74:59]
A
Yeah, he's like, let me change that word. Let me. You know, he's got to consult this.
- [75:04]
B
Look upon my face. Maybe a gesture or maybe not.
- [75:07]
A
Maybe not. And it includes the reminder. Not just because we as the reader should know this, but because Aldarian genuinely needs to be reminded that he's been king of Numenor for 142 years.
- [75:19]
B
Yes, but despite that experience, he doesn't believe he understands the situation well enough. Or thoroughly enough to make a wise and just decision. And he knows that making this decision is both important and. And it carries great risk either way.
- [75:34]
A
Which is really honestly why he can't make the decision. He feels like the risk is so great on both sides. I don't have the data. And that's when we get to the written decision. This proclamation that he looks at and reads out. I feel like this is important because it shows that this isn't a decision that he made on the spur of the moment. In fact, I'd argue that if he hadn't already made and written down this decision, Aldarian's rants might have suggested against it. But more than that, it's almost. But not quite because it hasn't been proclaimed yet. It's almost irreversible. The written word has so much power in it.
- [76:10]
B
It does.
- [76:11]
A
And it's like he's committed to this by putting it on paper.
- [76:14]
B
He set it down.
- [76:15]
A
Yeah, he's the king. So when he writes it down.
- [76:19]
B
Yeah, yeah, indeed. But of course, he has to read it aloud. And so we first get the two reasons he's making this decision. The first, this is kind of ironic, given the way Aeldarios has spoken to him. The first, Are you regretting this son, who he loves very much?
- [76:37]
A
Apparently so.
- [76:38]
B
The second is a recognition that his son understands the geopolitical reality far more thoroughly and directly than Maneldor does. And he's not wrong about that.
- [76:48]
A
Yeah, he's absolutely right there. And that's the thing. Meneldor is not in a position to make this decision decision. But he knows his son is, and therefore that is his decision. He will forthwith, which means without delay, give Aldarion the scepter and make him king Tar Eldarion.
- [77:02]
B
Right. Now, of course, even though this is a fourth with. And even with fourth, it's not yet been made official. So there is still some work to be done. But when it is done, it will do two things for Aldarion, as Meneldor sees it.
- [77:15]
A
And one of them is the thing that we mentioned just a little bit ago. It's to kind of get him out of this scandal. You know, we talked about him needing the people to respect Eldarion, and that's exactly what this will do in some way. I mean, it's not going to remove that stain entirely, but he hopes that this proclamation will get him back in the good graces of the Numenoreans.
- [77:34]
B
And the second is to give him even more power and freedom to help soothe the pain of the fact that Arendus doesn't love him anymore. As he says, other losses will be easy to endure.
- [77:46]
A
Very diplomatic way of putting that.
- [77:47]
B
Yes.
- [77:48]
A
Minelda are quite good with his words. Anything about those two elements that jumps out at you? They seem logical enough.
- [77:54]
B
They do. I think they're very hopeful.
- [77:59]
A
They are. Mineldr's optimistic for sure. Yeah.
- [78:02]
B
I mean, simply making him king on its own, I don't think will put him back in the good graces of the Numenoreans. I don't think it would be enough to do that. He would then have to be king and be.
- [78:14]
A
And act like a king.
- [78:15]
B
Yeah, exactly.
- [78:16]
A
You can only act like a king, though, if you are the king. So let's put the pressure on him now. Right? I mean, here's a way to make sure that he actually sticks around, not that he Agree.
- [78:25]
B
What about the second one? Do you think it would soothe the pain of the fact that Arrendus doesn't love him anymore?
- [78:31]
A
I don't know that anything can soothe that pain. Eldarion's deeply wounded again. Consequences of his own actions. I'm not not saying the wounding is, you know, like a, a, an unjust thing. It just is. You know, when something goes poorly, it hurts. When some bad thing happens, the hurt doesn't go away. But when something comes along that gives you joy, happiness. In this case power, which is something that Eldarion, you know, would make Eldarion happy. It doesn't take away the pain, but it does counter it a little bit. And I think that's even inherent in the words that Mineldur says here. He doesn't say, oh, this is going to take away the pain. He just says it's going to make those losses easy to endure. Certainly make them easier to endure. I think there's something to that.
- [79:14]
B
Gives him something else to focus on, doesn't it?
- [79:15]
A
Right. He's not going to spend his entire day just dwelling on this.
- [79:19]
B
Yeah.
- [79:19]
A
I mean, if he's down there on the houseboat with his frat bros, that's.
- [79:23]
B
All he's going to be thinking about.
- [79:24]
A
Exactly. It's all he's going to be thinking about. Now. He's going to have responsibilities, duties. He's going to end up going back to Middle Earth, connecting with Gil Galad. You're working out the logistics of sending troops there, whatever it may take. That's a jock job. And that's going to take his mind off of this. Yeah, yeah. Of course. More than that, it actually frees meneldor from making this decision about Gil Galad and the preparation for war. And it gives the responsibility, for good or for ill, to Aldarion.
- [79:51]
B
I have mixed feelings about this.
- [79:53]
A
I do.
- [79:54]
B
Yeah. I mean, Mineldor is king.
- [79:58]
A
This isn't early retirement.
- [80:00]
B
Yeah, very early. And to abrogate the responsibility to a son who he can't really rely on, who has not shown himself to be reliable.
- [80:10]
A
That's the second part's the problem. And I get like, okay, I don't know enough about this to make the right decision. I'm going to leave it to you to make the decision. But for that to be in effect, you have to be the king. So I'm going to have to step back. I can get that part.
- [80:24]
B
Don't you think that if they'd had a better relationship that Mineldor could have just asked Aldarion's counsel?
- [80:31]
A
Exactly. I'm going to say yes to sending the troops and helping Gil Galad because you have said it's necessary. So, in fact, you are now responsible, son, for the logistics of getting the troops over there and for working this out. I'm going to say to Gil Galad, yes. And Eldarion, my son is going to be leading this command. That's what I'd rather see him do.
- [80:51]
B
Same. Perhaps he decides or doesn't even consider that simply because they just don't have that relationship.
- [80:59]
A
Yeah, well, I mean, you see how well it went. You know, he's given him the job of. Of being the harbor master and the tree, the forestry guy, and he's not done a great job of either of those. Yeah, well, Eldarion has a response to this. And I gotta say, I think Mineldur chose his timing quite well. Sara, go ahead and share with us Aldarion's response.
- [81:23]
B
Aldarion stood still for a moment. In amaze, he had braced himself to face the king's anger, which willfully he had endeavoured to kindle. Now he stood confounded. Then, as one swept from his feet by a sudden wind, from a quarter unexpected, he fell to his knees before his father. But after a moment, he raised his bowed head and laughed. So he always did when he heard of any deed of great generosity, for it gladdened his heart. Father, he said, ask the king to forget my insolence to him him. For he is a great king, and his humility sets him far above my pride. I am conquered. I submit myself wholly that such a king should resign. The sceptre, while in vigour and wisdom is not to be thought yet so it is resolved, said Meneldo. The council shall be summoned forthwith. When the council came together after seven days had passed, Tarm and Elder acquainted them with his resolve and laid the scroll before them. Then all were amazed, not yet knowing what were the courses of which the king spoke. And all demurred, begging him to delay his decision, save only Halatan of Hierostawni, for he had long held his kinsman Aldarion in esteem, though his own life and likings were far otherwise. And he judged the king's deed to be noble. Noble and timed with shrewdness if it must be. But to those others who urged this or that against his resolve, Minneldo answered, not without thought did I come to this resolution. And in my thought I have considered all the reasons that you wisely argue.
- [83:11]
A
I like that. I've already thought about everything you were going to say. Yeah, but we'll get to that.
- [83:15]
B
This wasn't a sudden thing.
- [83:17]
A
No. Going back to the beginning of that, I'm trying to imagine the thoughts going through Eldarion's mind at this very moment. Has he. He even heard the last part of what his father said? Or is simply forthwith resigned the scepter to his son, still ringing in his ears? I don't know.
- [83:31]
B
But the text does do a good job of giving us the emotional whiplash he's experiencing, though. We're told that not only was he getting ready for the king to lay into him, he had intentionally provoked his father.
- [83:43]
A
And that's where we get to a big, big, big, big problem that I have with the. Because this tells me that that none, or at least very little of the way that he's interacted with horrendous was. Oops. This is an intentional choice on his part. This is a guy who's not only willing to purposefully anger his father, who's the king, I might add, but who knows precisely how to do it. This is the mark of a master manipulator.
- [84:10]
B
I agree.
- [84:11]
A
And this. This part, it's. It's a subtle moment. And if you miss this, you miss the fact that this guy. Guy isn't just somebody who responds and is emotional, wears his heart on his sleeve. Yes, those things are true, and I think he does. But the fact that he is willing to manipulate on purpose his father to. To get a reaction from him.
- [84:31]
B
But why that reaction? Why would you want to poke your dad like that? Why?
- [84:37]
A
Just to give him the satisfaction of it. Like, I just. I find this so disturbing. Like, that's who you are.
- [84:44]
B
But he's not facing his dad's anger. Instead, he's completely stunned by his father's choice. And the text says his reaction to drop to his knees is like someone being knocked over by a strong and unexpected wind. I mean, it does seem a genuine response, doesn't it?
- [84:59]
A
That's the thing. It's not like everything is calculated. I don't mean to imply that.
- [85:02]
B
Yeah, yep. And as he finally grasps what's happened, he looks up and laughs. He becomes a totally different Aldarion.
- [85:11]
A
He really does. And, and I think it's interesting the way the text kind of describes this. It says that he's consistently reacted to generosity like this because seeing that brings him so much joy. And that takes me all the way back to the very, very beginning of the story. When we first met Eldarion. He was described as two things, ready to mirth and generous. Yeah, this is very connected, isn't it? I just don't see a lot of generosity on his part. Maybe he was with his men, the Venturers.
- [85:39]
B
Well, that's it. I mean, he hasn't been generous with Orendis. That doesn't mean he hasn't been very generous with his seafarers, with the men with whom he sails, all that sort of thing.
- [85:50]
A
Yeah.
- [85:50]
B
I think what we get here is a reminder from Tolkien that Eldarion is a complex character.
- [85:57]
A
Yes.
- [85:58]
B
He's not, as I've said, and as you said, a two dimensional villain. He is a complicated man. He is capable of coldness and cruelty. He's also capable of laughter and generosity. There is a reason, after all, why his sailors have loved him and call him their great captain.
- [86:19]
A
Yeah. He's obviously not a jerk to everybody all the time.
- [86:22]
B
Exactly.
- [86:22]
A
Clearly.
- [86:23]
B
So there are clearly spaces and times and places in which he is a totally different person. And I find that fascinating, actually.
- [86:34]
A
How do you. Yeah, I do too. I just like. How does. How do you go from A to B? How do you go from this guy who's kind and generous and filled with joy and laughter to a cold and bitter and mean hearted, cruel person?
- [86:49]
B
Yeah. I mean, I could take a step back and look at Aldarion from the very beginning. And we knew from the very beginning where his joy lay. His joy lay upon the sea.
- [87:03]
A
Yeah.
- [87:03]
B
That's what he always wanted to do.
- [87:05]
A
Do.
- [87:06]
B
But here is a man who has had duties laid upon him which he should have followed, but he's had duties laid upon him and part of that duty was to get married and have children. Yeah, but you could argue that really Aldarion was never fit for that. This. This was like putting a square peg into a round hole. It wasn't right for him. And because he was pushed into that space in that way, that had consequences. I'm not saying he's blameless at all.
- [87:40]
A
No, of course not.
- [87:41]
B
But he was absolutely and utterly the wrong person to be the kind of thing he was required to be. His great love was for the ocean. It was not for horrendous. I'm not saying he didn't love her at all. I think he loved the idea of her.
- [87:58]
A
And I think there might have even been times where he genuinely loved her. I mean, the times that he was pursuing her, there had to have been moments. You know, we certainly talk about the. The contentment that he felt where he was able to look back on that time in his life as being the most content. I think there was some genuine love. But. But you're right. This is. This is a man who is forced by circumstances. The fact that he's the eldest son to be the king's heir. Yeah, but you're right. That's not his role. Role? I mean, it's not his natural role. Right.
- [88:26]
B
It's not. Yes.
- [88:27]
A
In a perfect world. Well, the perfect world, Cimmerian would have been queen and he wouldn't have even been in the line of. The line of. But even if we change the law now, once again, it's one of these things where, you know, if Meneldur had had another son, we could just say, okay, well, you. You want to bypass the throne, then we'll give it to your brother. I mean, this just simply isn't what he was born to do. Do.
- [88:52]
B
No. And contentment is nice, but contentment is kind of. It's the beige of emotions.
- [88:59]
A
Isn't it fair?
- [89:00]
B
Yeah. It's not terrible. Contentment is lovely. Contentment is good. But his passion was for the sea.
- [89:08]
A
It's not happiness and joy and satisfaction. It's.
- [89:12]
B
Yeah. Contentment. I mean, those of us who are old married folks, we know that contentment is actually long, lovely.
- [89:17]
A
Yeah.
- [89:18]
B
Contentment is. Is great. But when he looks back and I've been thinking so much about that line that, you know, you picked up on. When he looks back and he remembers that this is when he felt most content. There's a big difference between what he felt in terms of contentment and what he may have felt when he was upon the ocean.
- [89:39]
A
Oh.
- [89:39]
B
Doing what he wanted to do that.
- [89:42]
A
Fulfilling his life in comparison. Yeah. If he could have just done that we would not be sitting here bashing Eldarion because if he had been able to fulfill what he wanted to do, he would have been so good at it and he would have helped Gilgalad and he would. And his father would have listened to his counsel and he would have sent men over and it would have been great. But circumstances forced him into a role.
- [90:05]
B
Yeah.
- [90:05]
A
And yeah, he still should have done what he needed to do. Do your duty. Right. We talk about the importance of duty. It just would have been nice if he didn't have to. If somebody else could have stepped up and said, sure, I'll be kidding.
- [90:17]
B
Yeah, that's it. I mean, we can't let him off the hook.
- [90:20]
A
No.
- [90:20]
B
Because you know, it's like we were talking about just a few minutes ago, adults living in the world, we all got to do things that we've got to do. But there are times when, if you take a step back and you look at Aldarion's life, you know, he would far rather have just been on the ocean. That's what he really, really loved. But it just wasn't the role that he was born into.
- [90:46]
A
No, unfortunately for him, you're right. And unfortunately for so many other people. I mean, who knows what Arendus life would have been had Eldarion said from the very beginning, hey, I am a mariner. It is what I do. It is who I am. I'm only on land between voyages. Like it is the temporary place. You and I are never going to build a life. It's never going to happen.
- [91:08]
B
I'm very sorry.
- [91:10]
A
You know, maybe she would have moved on, maybe she wouldn't. Maybe she would have carried a torch for the rest of her life, but whatever. An economy's life wouldn't have been ruined.
- [91:16]
B
No, no. And you know, she would have had, I think at least a choice.
- [91:21]
A
Yes. Then. And that choice needed to happen early on, you know, because she was very young when they first met. Yeah.
- [91:29]
B
And. And even by Numenorean standards, she was almost middle aged by the time that she had finally had uncalami.
- [91:34]
A
Oh. Oh yeah. Because she was what, 99 when they got. I mean that's.
- [91:38]
B
Yeah.
- [91:39]
A
She was 101 when she gave birth to an.
- [91:41]
B
Yes.
- [91:42]
A
Aldarian finally refers to Manel Dur as father in asking for forgiveness for his rude conduct. He doesn't actually ask for forgiveness. He just says I. I ask you to forget this. I mean, it feels like a formal way of apologizing, but I, I do feel like he is apologizing Here.
- [91:59]
B
As much as. As he's.
- [92:00]
A
I think as much as he's capable of.
- [92:02]
B
Yeah, yeah, yeah. And honestly or not, he rightly recognizes Maneldor's humility and his own pride.
- [92:10]
A
Yeah, we don't see that very often.
- [92:12]
B
No. Recall the first reading where we learned that Mineldor was a man of gentle mood without pride.
- [92:17]
A
Yeah.
- [92:18]
B
And the reference in the line of Elros that he was wise but gentle and patient.
- [92:22]
A
Yeah, we see a lot of that here, I think. Yeah.
- [92:24]
B
Yes, we do. Very different temperament to his son.
- [92:29]
A
Very different, you know, Eldarion, definitely prideful. But at least here he acknowledges that. Now, whether he really thinks he is deep down or whether he thinks, well, of course I'm prideful, but I deserve to be, you know, so who knows? But he does admit his defeat in this moment, like you have you. You win, dad. He submits completely to the king, acknowledging that this is not something he or anyone frankly, would have ever thought would happen. But of course, it is happening. And now it's time to bring this to the council. It's time to talk about it with the council. And that council includes Halatan.
- [93:08]
B
So a week passes. So now it's two weeks since Eldarion's return. And the council meets. Now recall our talk about the council. This group of advisors had no powers to govern the king, save by advice. And no such powers had yet been desired or dreamed of as needed.
- [93:25]
A
Full.
- [93:26]
B
So that's a really important understanding of who this council is. They're representative, but they're not elected. And experts and specialists could also be on the council as advisors.
- [93:38]
A
That's right. So Meneldor tells them the news and even lays out the scroll with his decision on it for them to look at. But he doesn't tell them the circumstances of Middle Earth that are driving this. This is sort of a, you know, for your eyes only, so to speak. So of course they're going to raise doubts like, look, if we don't know why you're doing this, we're going to ask questions. And they ask some tough questions. Of course, they all ask for him to hold off. Except for Halitan.
- [94:02]
B
This is interesting because Halatan, he has apparently a lot of respect for Aldara, even though they aren't exactly buddies. It does say in the text that their life and likings were far different from each other.
- [94:15]
A
That's interesting. And it comes back to a little bit of what we talked about with, you know, the fact that, yeah, he's a terrible husband and a terrible father. He's not even a very great son, but he's clearly a magnetic personality. People are drawn to him. They. There's a sense of, you know, people have almost an instant admiration for him and Halatan, even though he and Eldarion have radically different lifestyles. He has esteem. He holds him in high esteem. It's very interesting. Interesting.
- [94:46]
B
Yeah. I think Halitan must be looking past what other Numenoreans clearly can't look past. You know, they. They dislike the way in which he's treated Horrendous, and they dislike the way he's disappeared for years on end.
- [94:58]
A
Yeah.
- [94:59]
B
Clearly sees something beyond that.
- [95:01]
A
Yeah.
- [95:02]
B
Maybe he sees the leader in Aldarion, you know, who he could be.
- [95:08]
A
And he clearly is a good leader in that sense when he leads the Venturers for a century.
- [95:14]
B
Yeah. And he figured the king was being shrewd with the timing of his decision, but he also believed it was the right call in the sense that Aldarion could do the job.
- [95:22]
A
That's right. So the objectors make their points. Menelduo responds to explain. Hey, look, it's not like I haven't thought about this. I went through all the objections. I've answered them all in my head. Right. I mean, we know he's thought about this for a week after getting the letter the day that Eldarion returned. Learned. And look, he points out, your. Your arguments are wise. They're good points that you're raising. But I've already thought about all of these, and I've still made this decision. This was not spur of the moment.
- [95:48]
B
Right. But in the part we didn't read, we get an interesting point made by Ben Elder here, and I want us to linger on this a bit. He says that it's better to do this now instead of later on for reasons which, though none here has uttered. All must guess.
- [96:03]
A
Yeah.
- [96:05]
B
Now, because we've all read Gil Galad's letter, it's easy for the reader to assume that Mineldor means the situation in Middle Earth. What do you think, though?
- [96:12]
A
Yeah, I think when I first read the story, that would have been what I was thinking. Right. Because as the reader who has a little bit of that omnipotence, I'm thinking, okay, you know, you must be talking about the rise of Sauron, but that's not it at all. What is the king saying here? The timing of the decision, the publication of the king's decree. It brings us back to what we read at the end of the last section. It will raise you above scorn. And that, dear Counselors is what you haven't uttered because you dare not, right? You're not going to spread rumors about the King's heir in the court. But you have all certainly guessed this because, well, like we read in the first reading, too many now speak of what is happening with Aldarion and Arendus. I'm sure the counselors are all aware. They're all aware of what he's done. But they're also, perhaps more importantly, all aware that the rest of Numenor knows and is not thinking very highly of him right now.
- [97:08]
B
That's it. I mean, I don't see how the councillors would know about the contents of Gil Galad's letter.
- [97:13]
A
How could they? Right.
- [97:14]
B
No. So that's not something on which they would base their decision or, you know, their advice or anything like that. So I think you're right. I think it has to be the other reason. Of the two that Menelder talks about when he. He talks to Aldarion about this, it. It seems most logical that this is it.
- [97:35]
A
For reasons which, though none here has uttered all. Let's guess again, Minelder with the super Diplo speak. I mean, I love this. Yeah.
- [97:44]
B
Yeah. Now, with that in mind, let's spread the word. But if you would prefer, we can delay the effective date to the eruquierme. That's the spirit. Spring prayers to eru. In which case, I'll hold on to the scepter just a little bit longer.
- [97:58]
A
So much for forthwith. But you know, when we actually proclaim it, it will be forthwith then. Yeah.
- [98:03]
B
Yes. Yep. Ford Blue Cruise hands free highway driving takes the work out of being behind the wheel, allowing you to relax and reconnect while also staying in control. Enjoy the drive in blue cruise enabled vehicles like the F150 Explorer and Mustang Mach E available feature on equipped vehicles. Terms apply. Does not replace safe driving. See Ford.com BlueCruise for more details. This episode is brought to you by State Farm. Listening to this podcast. Smart move Being financially savvy. Smart move. Another smart move having State Farm help you create a competitive price when you choose to bundle home and auto bundling. Just another way to save with a personal price plan like a good neighbor, State Farm is there. Prices are based on rating plans that vary by state. Coverage options are selected by the customer. Availability, amount of discounts and savings and eligibility vary by state. Coca Cola for the big, for the small, the short and the tall. Peacemakers risk takers for the optimists, Pessimists for long distance love for introverts and extroverts, the thinkers and the doers for old friends and new Coca Cola for everyone. Pick up some Coca Cola at a store near you. We told you about the amazing PPP community after our earlier break. If you're a part of that community and you want to enjoy something even more special, come and join the Fellowship of the Podcast on Patreon. You get to be in the best discord community around, one that includes host hangouts and even live episode recordings.
- [100:02]
A
And of course, your support there is what enables me to work full time doing all of these shows. The Pranciponi Podcast, today's Tolkien Time, Rings of Power wrap up when that comes around, as well as my streaming show the PPP plays Now. When you join, you also get episode Postscripts ad free episodes, free merch and more. And again, thank you. I know especially around the holidays it can be tough to give and I just want you to know how much.
- [100:24]
B
I appreciate that indeed. You can also join Questions After Nightfall episodes or even appear as a guest in the north wing. Go to patreon.com prancingponypod to show your support and join the Fellowship of the Podcast.
- [100:39]
A
And don't forget to rate and review on Apple Podcasts and Spotify. And please recommend us to your friends. Of course you can do that directly on Spotify now just share it with your friends.
- [100:47]
B
Okay Alan, shall we go into the next bit?
- [100:49]
A
All right, let's close it up for today, so we'll go ahead and pick up shortly after. Horrendous has received word about this decision. He is swift to strike, she thought, so I should have foreseen. He will strip me of all but myself. He shall not command, though it be by the mouth of his father. Therefore she returned answer to Tar Meneldor, king and father. My daughter and Calumet must come. Indeed, if you command it, I beg that you will consider her years and see to it that she is lodged in quiet. For myself, I pray you to excuse me. I learn that my house in Armenelos has been destroyed, enjoyed, and I would not at this time willingly be a guest, least of all upon a house ship among mariners here. Then permit me to remain in my solitude, unless it be the king's will also to take back this house. This letter Tar Meneldur read with concern, but it missed its mark in his heart. He showed it to Eldarion, to whom it seemed chiefly aimed. Then Eldarion read the letter, and the king, king, regarding the face of his son, said, doubtless you are grieved. But for what else did you hope? Not for this, at least, said Eldarion. It is far below my hope of her. She has dwindled. And if I have wrought this, then black is my blame. All right, folks, we're done here.
- [102:17]
B
Mic drop moment.
- [102:18]
A
End of the story. Black is my blade.
- [102:21]
B
Yay.
- [102:22]
A
Out of the mouths of babes. But do the large shrink in adversity? This was not the way, not even in hate or revenge. She should have demanded that a great house be prepared for her, called for a queen's escort, and come back to Armenelas with her beauty adorned royally with a star on her brow. Then well nigh all the Isle of Numenor, she might have bewitched to her part and made me seem madman and church pearl. The Valar, be my witness, I would rather have had it so rather a beautiful queen to thwart me and flout me than freedom to rule while the Lady Elastirne falls down dim into her own twilight. Then, with a bitter laugh, he gave back the letter to the king. Well, so it is, he said. But if one has a distaste to dwell on a ship among mariners, another may be excused dislike of a sheep farm among serving women. But I will not have my daughter so schooled. At least she shall choose by knowledge. He rose and begged leave to go. Well, that's literally the end of the story as written as we'll get to. But man.
- [103:34]
B
Wow.
- [103:34]
A
Wow.
- [103:35]
B
Now, we skipped reading the first paragraph, but we should take a closer look at it here. Eventually, the news about Tarmen Elder's resignation of the scepter reaches Arendis. And this cut deep because she saw this as Minelda rebuking her, which hurts even more because she believed she was on his good side, as maybe she should be.
- [103:55]
A
Indeed, the text says that in this she saw truly. But I have to ask, really, I mean, I don't see this as a rebuke of Orendus by the king so much as a recognition by the king that he's stuck. He's not. Not. He's not siding with Aldarion against Orendus here.
- [104:12]
B
No, I don't think. Yeah, all right. So thinking about this, I'm not sure about Tolkien's commentary here. In this she saw truly. Is this Tolkien, the narrator, who's supposed to be, you know, objective, etc. Or is this really horrendous? She believes she saw truly.
- [104:40]
A
Oh, yes, I see what you mean. Sure, I think you're right. No, I think you're Right. The way it's phrased, she believed this. Right. She saw this.
- [104:51]
B
Truly believe.
- [104:52]
A
She truly saw this. That doesn't mean in this, she saw accurately. Yeah, I think you're right. I think you're right. I'm reading it. It a little differently than it was intended. That makes much more sense. Much more sense. Because the last thing that Minelder would do would be rebuke her.
- [105:07]
B
I don't think that he would do that because from what he was saying to Aldarion in the previous reading, and he was saying that Aldarion, you know, you have some blame here.
- [105:18]
A
Yeah.
- [105:18]
B
Then I don't think that he's.
- [105:20]
A
Yeah, I think you're right. That's a very good spin on it. Because I could. I kept trying to wrap my head around that's like. What do you mean? In the. She saw true. Truly. But I think this is truly as in genuinely she saw this rather than accurately. This was true. So. Yeah. So while she genuinely saw this as a rebuke, the text also, even though it might not have been, the text also makes it clear that she didn't understand. And how could she. That there was a reason of greater import. I mean, not only would she not know about Gil Galad because Aeldari had never talks to her about this stuff, she doesn't even know that there's anything behind this beyond a rebuke of her and a raising up of Eldarion, which explains why she saw this as a rebuke. She couldn't.
- [106:01]
B
She doesn't have the context for this.
- [106:02]
A
Yeah, there's no context at all.
- [106:04]
B
Yeah. So without that context. And of course, it would be understandable if she was looking for the slights.
- [106:11]
A
Looking for. And she has reason to be looking for them right now.
- [106:15]
B
Exactly. So without that context and with her attitude being what it would be, I don't think it's that surprising.
- [106:25]
A
No.
- [106:25]
B
That she does read that into it.
- [106:28]
A
Yeah. Yeah. I just. I was completely misreading the. In this, she saw truly. I think you're right. It's. She genuinely believed this. Like, in this, this is what she saw. Even if she wasn't imagining this as a rebuke, she was genuinely believing this is a rebuke. She's just wrong because that's not the case. Right. Okay.
- [106:49]
B
Right.
- [106:50]
A
That makes more sense.
- [106:52]
B
So now a message comes from the king. A graciously worded order asking her and Ancalame to come to the capital, to live there until spring, and the official proclamation of Aldarion as king. Now, I would wonder what her thoughts are, but we don't actually have to, because that's where we picked up with her thinking through what's happening and what could happen and what her response will be to the message.
- [107:14]
A
That's right. And she believes this is Aldarian strike against her. And she's disappointed in herself for not seeing it come. Coming. But a couple things here I want to talk about for a bit. First of all, it's not Aldarion's move. She doesn't know that it was Meneldur's. But how could she have foreseen something like this?
- [107:31]
B
Well, how could she possibly. And this is all part of the communication problem. If they had been able to say to Arendus, look, there is a reason why Aldarion is being made king at this point. We have all this other stuff going on. This is what this is about.
- [107:48]
A
Yeah. This has nothing to do with you.
- [107:50]
B
Right, but because they either can't or don't, then she's only got her own experiences to draw conclusions from.
- [107:58]
A
Yeah, you're right. That's the only context she has.
- [108:00]
B
Exactly. So she. It. It's kind of natural that she would read into this, that this is what she believed was going to happen.
- [108:11]
A
This is why Eldarion was in a hurry to get back to our Menelaus, was to turn his father against me.
- [108:17]
B
Exactly. This is what we were talking about in that episod. That Aeldarion. She was looking for him to wield his power because he threatens that.
- [108:27]
A
Yeah, he does.
- [108:27]
B
When he leaves.
- [108:28]
A
Absolutely.
- [108:29]
B
So this is the move as far as she's concerned.
- [108:32]
A
Exactly.
- [108:33]
B
If only they could have said to her, look, there is context.
- [108:36]
A
I know. I mean, and part of this is just the nature of the communication. It's in a formal letter. It's not like an Elder could pick up the phone and say, hey, I know you and Aeldari are going through some rough times right now. Now. And. And it's okay. We'll. We'll. We'll make sure you don't need to deal directly with him. But I need you and an to come to the city.
- [108:52]
B
There are reasons. And we can chat when you get here.
- [108:54]
A
Exactly. And we'll sit down and talk it through.
- [108:56]
B
Yeah.
- [108:57]
A
I mean, by the same token, could this also. I mean, the decision was Maneldor. That is to say, the decision to, you know, resign the scepter. But the idea of communicating the letter and saying, bring an here, that might have been an Eldarian thing. That might have been Eldarion saying, dad, you need To. To send a letter so. To make sure an comes. Because remember, one of my conditions here is that. And I still want this condition is that my mom raised an. So the communication of the resignation could have been Aldarian's idea. Do you think there's an element to that, or is this just Meneldor saying, of course we got to bring An Colum here and we should invite her mom, too?
- [109:39]
B
Well, there's a bit of. Bit of column A and a bit of column B going on here, isn't there?
- [109:43]
A
I think so.
- [109:44]
B
Because I think that really this would have to be communicated to Arendus anyway. Her husband. Even though they are estranged. Her husband is about to be king.
- [109:53]
A
Yeah. They're not divorced because divorce isn't a thing. They are estranged, but they are still legally husband and wife. That means she is now the wife of the King of Numenor.
- [110:00]
B
So she needs to be informed of that. I mean, how else is she going to find out? One of the shepherds turns up and says, oh, by the way.
- [110:07]
A
By the way, Queen.
- [110:09]
B
Yeah. So I think it is right that Benildur does communicate with her. On the other hand, you could see Aldarion's hand in this, with the insistence that Ancalame comes to stay with them.
- [110:26]
A
Yeah. Which explains then why she thinks everything's going to be taken away from her.
- [110:30]
B
Yes.
- [110:31]
A
By everything, she means on Calumet.
- [110:32]
B
Yeah. Because that's the. Everything that she has left.
- [110:35]
A
Yeah.
- [110:36]
B
So that is kind of understandable. So this is. This is an unfortunate. A little extra here.
- [110:42]
A
It is, isn't it?
- [110:43]
B
You know, she responds the way she does, and then we'll see the way in which Aldarion reads her response.
- [110:49]
A
I know it's. Again, it's. It's the back and forth. And it's. In this case, it's not just that they're not communicating, because they actually are now, but they're communicating in a way that prohibits immediate feedback and direct communication.
- [111:03]
B
Yes.
- [111:03]
A
Yeah.
- [111:04]
B
Yeah. So she concerned about what's gonna happen next.
- [111:09]
A
Putting it mildly. Yeah.
- [111:10]
B
If she does go, he will take everything from me, she thinks. And Calumet, certainly. But could he also take the gift of the White House? So, you know, if she leaves there, could he then just. I mean, he's destroyed the house in a loss. Could he do the same thing to the White House?
- [111:28]
A
Certainly, once he's king? I mean, there's nothing to stop him once he's king. Right. Now it's Meneldur's choice, I suppose, which is what she says in the Letter. But, yeah, that's. That's got to be a fear. Like he literally could take everything from her. But. And again, this is. This is Erendis being who she is. All right? She decides she's going to get herself out of this. He can't tell me what to do. That is, Aldarion cannot tell me what to do, even if he's using his father as a mouthpiece. That brings me to this idea of how terrified she must be with the idea of Aldarian becoming king. The power that he would wield, unchecked, unregulated. This isn't a constitutional republic, you know. This is an actual, absolute monarch. The council can't even tell him what to do. The fear that he could do anything, that he wanted to ruin her life, that's legit.
- [112:21]
B
And technically, he absolutely could. Of course, it wouldn't look good, would it?
- [112:26]
A
No. No, wouldn't. And. And he is petty, so I wouldn't put it past him. No, he's also going to be busy.
- [112:34]
B
He's going to be busy. His entire focus is no longer on. Well, if it ever was.
- [112:38]
A
If it's ever been.
- [112:40]
B
But, you know, even Aldarion might be slightly concerned with optics.
- [112:45]
A
I think he'd have to be. Once he becomes king, I think he'd have to be a little more concerned about optics. It might take him a little bit to realize that he needs to be concerned about optics.
- [112:53]
B
That is true. And in the meantime, he'll have absolutely no problem with removing Ancala from her mother.
- [112:59]
A
Yeah.
- [112:59]
B
Yeah. Although we could argue that's not a bad thing.
- [113:02]
A
Well, that's true. And possibly with removing Arendus Romeria.
- [113:07]
B
Yeah.
- [113:07]
A
Yeah.
- [113:08]
B
So she sends a message back, which is officially to Meneldor, but it kind of seems aimed at Aldarion. Yeah, I mean, she knows he's going to read it.
- [113:15]
A
Oh, of course.
- [113:16]
B
And she concedes the obvious, that Ancalame has to go if commanded.
- [113:21]
A
Well, of course, but she doesn't have a choice. No, she has no choice there. But. But she asks, hey, can you at least please consider she's only nine years old. Put her in a quiet place. By quiet, is she saying, don't put them on one of the ships or in the harbor town? Or is she saying, don't put her near Eldarion, or don't put her near where she'll hear about boys or something else?
- [113:44]
B
Yeah. Honestly, to give her a little bit of credit, I don't think that she would think that Ancalame would be put aboard one of the Ships?
- [113:51]
A
No, I don't think so.
- [113:52]
B
That seems unlikely. But the quiet place. I think that she would if she could ensure that Ancalame remained in seclusion.
- [114:02]
A
Yeah, yeah.
- [114:03]
B
Which, of course, is manipulative of hirendis, her last attempt to manipulate something from.
- [114:09]
A
This, to try to have some measure of control.
- [114:12]
B
It would be her preference for certain, that Ancalame remained in some kind of seclusion.
- [114:18]
A
I mean, she does think that there's a possibility that she would be asked to be a guest on, you know, Ambar, perhaps. So maybe it's not completely out of her mind. I think it's not realistic that she would be put there, but I think she thinks it's a possibility. So.
- [114:33]
B
Yeah.
- [114:33]
A
Yeah, of course, this is. You know, the gist of the letter is, look, you're going to take on Callum whether I want you to or not. Please keep in mind that she's young, but please allow me to not come. Let me stay here. After all, my house there has been destroyed by my vengeful, estranged husband.
- [114:50]
B
True.
- [114:51]
A
My house is burned to the ground and I don't want to be on board a ship. I don't even want to be a guest anywhere. And of course she doesn't. I mean, think about this. She has had complete and total control over her domestic life. Really? Over her life completely over the last five years while Aldarian has been gone. That's why she's set up the way she has with just the women in her house. Household. She does not want to be at the mercy of other people's decisions because she hasn't been at the mercy of anybody else's decisions for five years.
- [115:19]
B
I think that's kind of understandable.
- [115:21]
A
Yeah, it is.
- [115:21]
B
You know, when you've been the mistress of your own home.
- [115:24]
A
Yeah.
- [115:25]
B
To then I don't know, she would be a guest at the palace or something, because she doesn't have her own.
- [115:30]
A
She can't stay at her own home. Yeah.
- [115:32]
B
The one that's burned to the ground. And maybe at some point they could build her a new one, but that would take time or find her somewhere. But she would end up not being in charge of her life at all and negotiating for access to her daughter.
- [115:45]
A
And she'd be at their whim. The schedule would already be determined for her. Yeah.
- [115:49]
B
Yes. So I kind of get it. On the other hand, I think she's being incredibly defensive before the fact.
- [115:57]
A
Yeah, yeah. She's expecting the worst.
- [116:00]
B
She is. You can understand.
- [116:02]
A
For some good reasons. Yeah, exactly. I mean, certainly if Eldarion was In control, she'd have reason to expect the worst.
- [116:08]
B
I think so, yes.
- [116:09]
A
I don't think Meneldor would allow her life in our Menelaus to be miserable while she.
- [116:13]
B
No, but then Menelda is not going to be the king for very much longer, is he?
- [116:17]
A
No, that's true. After the erukjerme. Yeah.
- [116:19]
B
Yeah. So she asks to be left in peace at her home with the last line appearing to be a dig of sorts. Unless you also want to take back your gift.
- [116:30]
A
I see that as deeply unnecessary. But again, like we talked about earlier, in this, she saw, truly. So from her perspective, she's seeing that now Mineldor is taking Eldarion's side.
- [116:42]
B
Yes.
- [116:43]
A
Therefore, he is now opposed to me. So I'm going to at least acknowledge that he could, but sort of say it in a way that will make him look like a total idiot if he does.
- [116:54]
B
You know what? We have been begging these people to communicate, begging them for the last however many episodes. And the problem is they're now communicating, but they're doing. Doing it so badly.
- [117:04]
A
Yes. Obliquely and with assumptions and indirect conclusions. And again, in a medium where it's not possible to have an open, honest, frank discussion.
- [117:16]
B
No. And it's always, as we know, it's always very difficult to figure out the nuance of the written word.
- [117:22]
A
Sometimes the written word tone is so hard.
- [117:24]
B
It's why we invented emojis for texting.
- [117:27]
A
Right. Even that's never enough. Like, I've been like, why did you use that emoji? I was asked was. I'm like, because that's what it means to me. And like, oh, no, it means this. I'm like, okay, yeah, I didn't know that.
- [117:39]
B
Oh, you gotta be careful Here we have a medium through which it is so easy to read something else into the words that you see that isn't necessarily there.
- [117:50]
A
Right. She's done that. And now I think Eldarion's gonna do that.
- [117:53]
B
I absolutely, 100%. And this is so frustrating and sad because we wanted them to communicate, and now that they are communicating, it's terrible because they're just going to completely misread each other's communications.
- [118:10]
A
All I can think of is this. Is this like that little gif of the stick figure man looking up at the word, the point as it goes right over his head. Right. Oh.
- [118:23]
B
What you hear there? That thumping? That is Sara bashing her head off the door desk. Oh, what a shame. So anyway, sadly, Maneldor, though, he was able to sense a problem and Felt concern he missed the point of the letter.
- [118:38]
A
It goes right over his head. Yeah.
- [118:40]
B
Oh. Instead, he shows it to Eldarion, feeling it was really written more for him. And in some ways it was. I think it was.
- [118:47]
A
It was. She knew. So she perceived this letter to be written more by Aldarion than by Meneldur. To her. So her response is going to be more to Aldarion than to Meneldur. Right. Because she's. She thinks he's using his father as a mouthpiece. So. So Eldarion reads it. Meneldor sees his face while reading it. I'm sure you're sad about this, son, but what else did you think would happen?
- [119:14]
B
What were you hoping for, man?
- [119:15]
A
Right. I do want to know, though. I mean, we know there's not much else that Eldarion could have expected. But I wonder, what do you think Meneldur thought this letter would accomplish?
- [119:24]
B
Maybe he was being super, super optimistic and thought that Arrendis would bring Ancalame.
- [119:31]
A
And they could have a sit down.
- [119:33]
B
Yeah, they could. You know, because now Aldarion is going to be the king. And maybe we could at least have civil communication that might lead to something. Yeah, maybe he is that optimistic.
- [119:44]
A
I think you're right. I mean, you think about.
- [119:46]
B
Oh, my sweet summer child.
- [119:47]
A
I know. Bless your heart, minel doer. You know, I mean, I. I think back to. To what he said to his son, you know, earlier, at the very beginning, I think was the first reading when he says something about things would have been otherwise if you had spoken more openly long ago. I think he's trying to foster communication. I think it's too late. But I think he's hoping they'll both come. We can all sit down and have a conversation, get this stuff aired out and resolve these things.
- [120:14]
B
But imagine that. Lovely first family dinner, awkward Thanksgiving. Tara. London.
- [120:23]
A
Oh, no. Oh, that can't be good. That can't be good. So, yeah, this is having Eldarion read the letter instead of just saying to Eldarion, hey, by the way, Arendus isn't going to come, but she's sending in Calame. That's. That's all he needs to know. No, instead, Aldarian's got to read it. So his response, troubling on a number of levels, but let's look at it first and then discuss.
- [120:48]
B
Yeah, he says this is below his hope of her. What?
- [120:54]
A
Yeah.
- [120:54]
B
In what way? I mean, you've repeatedly shown nothing but disdain, even contempt for her. Especially in your most recent visit to a Mary. Think of how he has spoken about her to his father. Why would she want to be in the same city as you, let alone the same palace? But also, how could he have these expectations of her when his own attitude towards her is as bad as it is? Yeah, I mean, dude, read the room, never mind the letter.
- [121:25]
A
Seriously. He says she's dwindled, gotten smaller. And then he nearly gets some insight here in that moment, right? Oh, if I have caused this, then black is my blame.
- [121:34]
B
Well, yeah, but that if was doing a lot of heavy lifting.
- [121:37]
A
I mean, you said it. And yes, black is your blame. You have crushed her over and over and over. You have broken your word a dozen times, you have treated her relentlessly cruel and cold, and you act like you're the victim, and then you're surprised that she's dwindled.
- [121:57]
B
Oh, what is that? Oh, it's the sound of a tiny, tiny violin playing somewhere deep in the background.
- [122:03]
A
I just. I don't get this. I mean, apparently, because she hasn't risen up and done something, I don't know, dramatic, like storming out of the throne room or riding off without saying goodbye. Maybe because she's not done something. Sort of the way he sees it, as strong in the face of adversity, somehow that makes her smaller.
- [122:18]
B
But wait, wait, wait. Apply the brakes and check the front and side view mirrors here.
- [122:25]
A
Yes.
- [122:25]
B
Was it not Aldarion just a moment ago who was talking about these women? The insolence of these women who would bring down men.
- [122:37]
A
She could never do anything to please, please him. Because, no, if she's quiet and submissive, then, oh, man, she's dwindled and she's become small. But if she stands up for herself, then she's insolent.
- [122:49]
B
Yes.
- [122:50]
A
If she had literally, if she had done the things that he goes on to say she should have done, he wouldn't be like, good for her.
- [122:56]
B
He'd be furious.
- [122:57]
A
He'd be furious at her insolence. How dare she? Yeah.
- [123:00]
B
Yes.
- [123:00]
A
So she can't win. Yeah. Yeah.
- [123:03]
B
Deep breath. Yeah. But he goes on to tell us all that she should have done. Nice bit of mansplaining going on there, insisted on a new house to be built, required a formal escort and come riding into town wearing the Temu Elendil mirror. Because then, apparently everyone would have practically worshipped her, which would have made Aldarion look like an idiot. Well, I've got news for you, my dude. You don't need any help accomplishing that.
- [123:32]
A
Would have made me seem a madman and a churl. Well, job done.
- [123:35]
B
Job done notes.
- [123:37]
A
In fact, he says he'd rather have a beautiful queen who fights against him than freedom while she descends into a twilight.
- [123:43]
B
Again with the what?
- [123:45]
A
Yeah, like you.
- [123:47]
B
No, no.
- [123:48]
A
Every time she stood up against you, you've trampled her. What do you mean you'd rather have somebody who stands against you? That's bs.
- [123:54]
B
That's exactly what you said you didn't want.
- [123:56]
A
Right? This is insane. The double standard is just off the charts. Yeah. This is the hypocrisy. The double standard. The idea that he wants this when it is literally the last thing he wants is just insane. You've got to do it.
- [124:09]
B
Really is. Yeah. So he hands the letter back to his dad with a derisive laugh before trying to draw a moral equivalency between making her live on a ship with sailors and having him live on a sheep farm with a bunch of women.
- [124:23]
A
That's again the double standard thing here. Because you could force her to live on this ship. And in fact, you invited her. You were going, I'm good. We're going to build. Build a amazing ship and you're going to sail with me to Middle Earth and see these amazing forests. No, I don't want to do that, man. You don't have to live on the sheep farm. You can spend some time there and then go back to our Menelaus. You don't have to spend 247 there. That's not what you're. But. But if she's on a ship at sea, she's. Yeah, this is not the same.
- [124:53]
B
A bunch of sailors. But he rightly. I would argue. Argue.
- [124:57]
A
Yeah, I think there's some truth here.
- [124:59]
B
He won't let Ancalame be raised that way without choice. You know what choice. Frame the moment.
- [125:05]
A
Yes.
- [125:05]
B
On Aldarion's side about that bit.
- [125:07]
A
Correct.
- [125:08]
B
Right. I can appreciate the fact that he says she'll get to choose, but by knowledge.
- [125:14]
A
Yeah.
- [125:15]
B
And that is important. She has no other knowledge of life outside of this cage in Ameri.
- [125:21]
A
And how can you exercise agency if you have no knowledge? He's at least trying to give her what she needs in order to have that agency. Right. Agency is very important to Eldarion. I mean, he wants to be able to do what he wants when he wants all the time. And I think he does want that. For his daughter to be able to make choices. And right now she has no choice.
- [125:43]
B
No. I mean, of course this is not how he expressed it to Arendis.
- [125:48]
A
No, of course not.
- [125:49]
B
Again, just take your chance away.
- [125:51]
A
Yeah, exactly. Just Threats.
- [125:52]
B
Yes.
- [125:53]
A
If. If this is really his motivation.
- [125:56]
B
Yes.
- [125:56]
A
Then it's a good motivation.
- [125:58]
B
It's a very good motivation. It's almost a dad motivation.
- [126:01]
A
It really is, isn't it? It's in that one brief moment of decent dad role right here.
- [126:07]
B
Yes.
- [126:07]
A
Hey. She's going to get to choose, but she's going to get to choose by knowledge. And that's why I want Grandma to raise her. Maybe it doesn't stay that. That way. Right. Maybe as she grows up and becomes a teenager and says, you know what? No, I really like the quiet of the green hills and the sheep, and I want to go be with my mom. And Tar Al Darien at that point says, okay, then you can go do that. Come back when you're, you know, 50, and I'm going to make you king's heir. We're going to change the law, but, you know, go and do that if that's where you want. But you're making that by choice. You're making a decision. You're not being held captive, which truthfully, that's what's happening right now.
- [126:47]
B
Yes. Yeah, I would agree with that. And then he leaves and that ends the story as completed. Because remember, this is an unfinished tale.
- [126:56]
A
These are. Yeah, this whole book is unfinished tales. Now, Christopher, thankfully, does give us a lot more. Like two episodes more, what he calls glimpses and snatches from notes and jottings.
- [127:07]
B
You sure we can't make this four more episodes?
- [127:09]
A
No, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no.
- [127:11]
B
I don't think we can get so many complaints.
- [127:15]
A
We do cover a lot, though. In the next two episodes, we're going to cover the reign of Tar Aldarian. We're going to cover an growing up, horrendous, notorious teaching about men. And a whole lot more before we wrap up in our 11th episode, which will talk about the new law of succession, Ancalame's courtship and time as queen and her relationship with her kids, and tragically, Arrinda's end.
- [127:39]
B
Yes, and it is a very tragic end, actually.
- [127:42]
A
It is. We're not given the details. I mean, it could have been an accident, but there's certainly a hint to me of an ultimately something more than that. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, if one has a distaste to dwell in a pub among barkeeps, another may be excused dislike of the mailbag. Sarah, what does Parliament have in his disliked mailbag for us today? No, we love the mailbag. Please don't get us wrong. We do.
- [128:07]
B
We love the mailbag. So, yes, absolutely. Okay. So Chris V in Vermont says both Aldarion and Arendes are described as proud and unyielding. How does Tolkien portray pride as both a virtue and a flaw in this Numenorean culture? And what might this suggest about Tolkien's views on the nature of human failings?
- [128:31]
A
Oh, my goodness, that's.
- [128:32]
B
So how is pride both a good and a bad thing?
- [128:34]
A
Yeah, that's, that's. I, I'm going to have to chew on that one for a minute.
- [128:40]
B
That's got the, the wheels in the Allen brain whirring.
- [128:45]
A
We're going to need. I whip that hamster. We're going to need both horsepower. Now. I, I feel like it's pretty easy to say that Tolkien frames pride as a bad thing almost, except exclusively. But not always exclusively. I mean, I think of pride being one of the sins of Melkor. I think of Feanor, I think of all of the people of Sauron, of Saruman. I mean, pride is always the downfall of every one of these characters, but sometimes it's a good thing. I think of Aragorn at the Argos, standing up in the boat, right?
- [129:29]
B
Different kind of pride, isn't it?
- [129:31]
A
Realizing the history that stands behind him and the responsibility that lay before him. And he takes pride in that. I feel like the distinction is to be made in what one is proud of. To be proud of the line of dissent, the history that lays behind you is a good thing. To be proud of the actions of your people, of, you know, for Aragorn, let's say, to be proud of how his soldiers conducted themselves. But when you get to the whole self important angle of pride, Denethor's pride, right? Even Gollum's pride, right. Even Smeagol's pride when he took the ring from Deagle. It's my birthday, you know, I'm more important. When you get to that stage of pride, you have a problem. And we can see it in things like love not too much the work of thy hands. We see it in, in, in Feanor's End. I do like the question. It feels like, like that's an episode question. You could spend an entire two hours pulling examples of good pride and bad pride. Pride, yeah, gives me.
- [130:48]
B
There's a difference between being proud and prideful.
- [130:52]
A
That's, ooh, I like that distinction. One can be proud. That's, that's really good because I think that that's just, that's, to me, I feel like that clarifies in a nice, easy to grasp way the distinction I was trying to make with A thousand more words. Which is proud can be an external thing. And what it is, that's a good thing. Thing. Yeah, most of the time. But when it's driven inwards and it's prideful, then it's a very bad thing.
- [131:19]
B
Yeah. It's a character flaw then, isn't it?
- [131:22]
A
Yeah. Mineldor is proud. He's proud of. Of the accomplishments of Numenor. He's proud of when his son does really good things. He's proud of his son.
- [131:32]
B
Yeah. We're allowed to be proud of our kids accomplishments.
- [131:35]
A
Absolutely.
- [131:35]
B
That's not a character flaw.
- [131:36]
A
On the other hand, to become prideful, full, which typically implies proud in one's own actions, but beyond a scope of reasonableness. Right. And we can, we could because we can even be proud of our own accomplishments. There's nothing wrong with saying I am so grateful, I'm so proud I was able to do this. I'm. You know, even to say I'm filled with pride about this is not to say I'm prideful. But when you then try to lord it over others and live in that process, that. That becomes troubling.
- [132:06]
B
And it's that distinction you've made between it being external and being internal.
- [132:11]
A
Yeah.
- [132:11]
B
You can be proud of something.
- [132:13]
A
Yeah.
- [132:13]
B
You know, you are rightly even the work of the ppp, for example, you can be proud of all the work you've put into your podcast. But you are not prideful.
- [132:22]
A
I hope not.
- [132:24]
B
Which implies a kind of arrogance.
- [132:26]
A
Right.
- [132:27]
B
Where you know, I'll just do exactly.
- [132:29]
A
As I please and. Yeah, exactly. Like an untouchable. Well, how dare you? Because, you know, you have not accomplished this thing that I have.
- [132:36]
B
You insolent person.
- [132:38]
A
Would you have me have me cringe, woman. Thankfully all Sara knows I'm kidding or she would reach through the ethernet and strangle me right here and now. That's a great question. I really like that. And actually I know that the idea of doing like topical episodes is something that is. Is more for the specials that we do for Patreon, which I am woefully behind on, but that's one to think about. And it's also something that maybe down the line, when I'm completely done with the show in its current format, which is to say 40 to 42 episodes a season, covering a book for a year, that kind of thing, in the far distant future of the semi retirement, topical episodes are something I want to do. And that sounds like a really good one. The idea of good pride versus bad.
- [133:25]
B
Taking a theory theme. Yeah. Oh, that would be wonderful. Because you could draw on all of the different books.
- [133:30]
A
So many wonderful examples of both. I mean, Tolkien's so good at making those distinctions, not in an explicit way, but in a way that you have to read and process as the reader to see why is this bad and why is this good.
- [133:44]
B
Oh, I love that.
- [133:45]
A
Yeah, that'll be good.
- [133:46]
B
Make a note of that quick, before you forget.
- [133:48]
A
Oh, yeah, we all know I will. That's true. Folks, thank you for joining us for another episode of the Prancing Pony Podcast. We are off the next two weeks for the winter holidays, so please join us again on January 4th when we look at the reign of King. Well, I shouldn't say King Tar Alari. You shouldn't say king because it means the same thing when we look at the reign of Tar Aldarien.
- [134:09]
B
Oh, I can hardly wait. Because he's going to be so much better now, right?
- [134:12]
A
Oh, that's right. Now that he has what he wants, he's going to be perfect.
- [134:15]
B
Yes. Can't wait for that, Alan. And I want to thank the members of Team PPP editor Jordan Rannels Barleyman, Becca Davis, social media manager Casey Hilsey, event and Patreon community coordinator Katie McKenna, graphic artist Megan Collins, video editor Yonatan Lace Ends, and website guru Phil Dean.
- [134:34]
A
Speaking of the website, please take a minute to check out the prancingpony podcast dot com. That's where you're going to find show notes and outtakes and Prancing Pony ponderings. Now, we are still in the process of changing vendors, though by the the time you hear this, it should be up and running. Our online storefront should be available soon if it's not. And you can get all sorts of cool PPP merch there, including the chapter art that Megan's been doing for us.
- [134:54]
B
For over three seasons, which is wonderful.
- [134:56]
A
It really is. I love the piece for Aldaria. And horrendous that.
- [134:59]
B
So do I.
- [135:00]
A
And the bow of returning. Oh, so good.
- [135:02]
B
Oh, no. Yeah, I want that on a T shirt, so I'm just putting that out there.
- [135:06]
A
All right, well, it'll be on as soon as we get our storefront up. You can get a T shirt, I promise.
- [135:10]
B
Wonderful. We're all about the books here at the Prancing Pony Podcast, so be sure to also visit our library page. We try to make sure that any book we've mentioned on the show is linked there for you to purchase. We do get a small amount of compensation when you make your purchase, so thank you for that indeed.
- [135:25]
A
We also want to thank our patrons at the Kirdan's contribution tier. I'll start with demay in Alaska, Chad in Texas, Lance in New Jersey, Joseph in Michigan, Kathy from North Carolina, Brian in the east uk, Jerry from Washington, Irwin from the Netherlands, Ben in Minnesota, Anthony in Texas, Zaksu in Illinois, Joshua in Massachusetts, Lucy in Texas, Erica in Texas, Vivian in California and James in Massachusetts.
- [135:50]
B
There's also Ann in Kentucky, Sean in New Jersey, Mason in California, Maureen from Massachusetts, Olivia in London, Robert in Arizona, Nick in Wisconsin, Lewis in South Carolina, Thomas in Germany, Craig in California, Kevin in Massachusetts, Bruce in California, Joe in Maryland, Scott in California, Jeffrey in Michigan and Paul in Colorado. Thank you all so very much for your support indeed.
- [136:17]
A
Thank you. Couldn't do this without you folks.
- [136:19]
B
Now make sure you don't miss any episodes of the Prancing Pony podcast. Subscribe now through Spotify, Apple Podcasts, Amazon Music, or your favorite podcast. Applause.
- [136:27]
A
And one last thing. As always, don't forget to send your thoughts, questions, comments and most of all, your blueprints for Orendus's new great house in Armenolas. I mean, we want stellar design here.
- [136:39]
B
Can we make it fireproof, please?
- [136:41]
A
Yes to Barliman@theprancingponypodcast.com Now, Barliman does have.
- [136:46]
B
A lot of mail to sort through though, so we'll try to get to you just as soon as we're able.
- [136:50]
A
Indeed. As always though, this has been far too short short a time to spend among such excellent and admirable listeners.
- [136:57]
B
But until next time, Alvar Farewell folks.
- [137:20]
A
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