394 – Back in the Emerië

Summary

The Prancing Pony Podcast - Episode 394: Back in the Emerië

Release Date: January 4, 2026
Hosted by: Alan Sisto & Sara Brown

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Episode Overview

This episode continues the Prancing Pony Podcast’s deep-dive through Tolkien’s legendarium, focusing on “Unfinished Tales”, specifically the final sections covering the further narrative of Aldarion and Erendis. Alan and guest host Sara Brown pick up in the “Further Course of the Narrative,” discussing the complex legacy of Aldarion—the seafaring King of Númenor, his relationship with Erendis, and the impacts on their daughter, Ancalimë. The episode explores themes of gender, generational trauma, patriarchal societies, and the seeds of Númenor’s fall, all while maintaining the show’s signature mix of humor, thoughtful discussion, and Tolkien-lore expertise.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Setting the Scene: Fragmented Tales and Disjointed Records

• [02:05] Alan introduces the episode by noting that, much like Tolkien’s own manuscripts, the remaining narrative is assembled from “notes and jottings only.”
• [06:01] Sara observes that Christopher Tolkien’s editorial role is to knit together these fragments to give us a more complete account than the principal narrative provided.

2. Númenórean Longevity, Family Dynamics, and Generational Trauma

• [07:08] Sara recaps Númenórean and human aging, highlighting Aldarion’s exceptionally long lifespan (living to 398) versus Erendis’s much shorter one (214), emphasizing the emotional and chronological gulf between them.

  “He was alive 71 years before she was born and lived 113 years after she died. I think this really brings home the difference in the value of time to her versus the value of time to him.”
  — Sara Brown [08:43]

• [08:57] Alan and Sara unpack how this difference created irreconcilable imbalances in their marriage and contributed to Erendis’s bitterness.

  “It really puts in context one of the major reasons why him being away... was detrimental to Arendis.”
  — Sara Brown [09:06]

3. Symbolism and Motivation: From the Green Bough of Return to the Eagle

• [11:08] Discussion on Aldarion’s replacement of the traditional green bough with an eagle gifted by Círdan on his ship, suggesting a shifting of loyalty and emotional focus from Númenor to Middle-earth.

  “For Aldarion, the connection for him is stronger with what's on the other side of the sea... He’s drawn more to Middle Earth than he is to his own home.”
  — Sara Brown [13:13]

4. The Importance of Aldarion’s Actions for Later History

• [23:32] Explicitly recognized that although Aldarion’s own works were impermanent, they laid the groundwork for the future salvation of the West in the wars against Sauron.

  “He gets credit for laying the foundation... That's some really significant moments in history right there, tied to Aeldarian.”
  — Alan Sisto [24:32]

• [25:12] Detailed breakdown of Tar-Minastir’s later victory, only made possible by Aldarion’s foundational efforts centuries earlier.

5. Colonialism, Power, and the Seeds of Númenor’s Downfall

• [37:12] Noted that Aldarion’s time marks “the very beginning of the Shadow” over Númenor—the shift from isolation to a thirst for power and imperialism.
• [38:47] Discussion of Númenórean expansion, colonial attitudes, and parallels with Britain’s own imperial history.

6. On “Dark Men Out of the Mountains”: Interpreting Language and Race in Tolkien

• [29:23] Alan and Sara address loaded terminology in Tolkien, debating whether "dark men" is a racial description or a statement about allegiance (Men of Darkness).

  “Tolkien was very aware... so that is one of the arguments that I don't tend to pay a great deal of attention to because I think it's actually rather demeaning to Tolkien.”
  — Sara Brown [32:13]

7. Political and Personal Timelines: Aldarion’s Absentee Kingship

• [50:56] The unprecedented nature of Aldarion leaving the throne unattended as he sails to Middle-earth is examined; implications for governance, succession, and why the regency fell to Hallatan, his staunch supporter.

8. Ancalimë: The Damaged Heir

• [58:01] Nuanced analysis of Ancalimë’s character as a result of her upbringing: a mix of her father's stubbornness and her mother's coldness and bitterness.

  “She has inherited the worst possible aspects of both of her parents.”
  — Sara Brown [60:06]

• [63:14] Discussion of Ancalimë’s lack of empathy, emotional detachment, and the tragic generational cycle of trauma handed from Nuneth to Erendis to Ancalimë.

9. The Misandric Teaching of Erendis

• [68:40 - 71:19; 72:00-108:26]
  Erendis’s “do not bend” diatribe to Ancalimë is read and unpacked at length—a powerful statement of both sharp insight and lasting bitterness about the roles and power dynamics of Númenórean society.

  “Men in Numenor are half-elves, said Arendis... They turn their play into great matters, and great matters into play... All things were made for their service... But we need not assent if we love Numenor also, let us enjoy it before they ruin it.”
  — Erendis [68:40]

• [77:05]

  “Prejudice is always going to create bitterness and anger. But there is an enormous difference between a prejudice that is a reflection of how someone has been treated and a prejudice that has the power of the state behind it that can really damage somebody.”
  — Sara Brown

10. Tolkien on Gender, Society, and Power

• [78:28 & following]
  Sara and Alan reflect on how Tolkien crafts nuanced female characters and does not simply reinforce stereotypes or societal prejudices, but often explores their origins and impacts with complexity.
• [83:54] Citing The Nature of Middle-earth, Tolkien himself supports aspects of Erendis’s complaints—Numenórean men are prone to ambition, restlessness, and losing “their nows.”

11. Aldarion’s Absent Fatherhood: A Lasting Wound

• [119:02-123:25]
  Discussing the lasting trauma of Ancalimë being physically set down by her father as a small child—a formative emotional wound which, combined with her parents' attitudes, shapes her for life.

  “The firmness with which Aldarien had unclasped her hand and set her down when he was in haste to be gone... That as a young woman, she's remembering this. This is the memory she has of her childhood.”
  — Alan Sisto [121:34]

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Notable Quotes and Memorable Moments

• On Númenórean Life and Marriage:

  “You get one life and we get a certain span, and when we begin that life, we do not know what that span eventually will be.”
  — Sara Brown [09:55]

• On Aldarion’s Restlessness & Symbolism:

  “The oil... was always about the return to Numenor... But this eagle... it isn't about Numenor. It's about the destination and the return—well, that's just in the hands of the Valar, assuming we don't tick him off.”
  — Alan Sisto [11:28]

• On the Teaching of Erendis:

  "Sink your roots into the rock and face the wind, though it blow away all your leaves.”
  — Erendis, quoted by Sara [71:19]

• On Intergenerational Damage:

  “She has learned to be malicious... The worst thing about this is she need not have been like this when we see her as a very, very young child...”
  — Sara Brown [130:33]

• On Parental Influence:

  “None of these things happen in a vacuum. You know, we bash Eldarion, we bash Arendis. None of this happens in a vacuum… both are damaged goods.”
  — Alan Sisto [134:03]

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Important Segment Timestamps

• [02:05] Start of lore & chapter discussion.
• [07:08-09:55] Númenórean lifespans, family legacy.
• [11:08-15:43] Symbolism: The Eagle vs. the Bough.
• [23:32-26:36] Aldarion’s legacy for later Numenorean history/Tar-Minastir.
• [29:23-36:46] Discussion of “dark men”, race, and language in Tolkien.
• [50:56-55:03] Kingship, governance, and unprecedented absenteeism.
• [58:01-67:09] Ancalimë’s upbringing—effects of trauma, character formation.
• [68:40-108:26] Erendis’s teaching to Ancalimë, feminist insights, misandry, and limitations of prejudice.
• [119:02-123:25] The impact of Aldarion’s absent/neglectful parenting.

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Flow and Tone

Throughout, Alan and Sara keep up a balance between scholarly insight, earnest empathy for the characters’ fictional lives, and lighthearted humor—occasionally with groan-inducing puns and Beatles references.

Their tone is conversational, warm, and inclusive, fully in the spirit of “friends chatting at the pub,” but always grounded in analysis and reference to Tolkien’s texts. Sensitive topics such as race and gender are handled with care and candor.

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Conclusion

The episode frames the tale of Aldarion and Erendis as not just a deeply personal tragedy but a pivotal moment in Númenorean history, sowing the seeds for the island’s eventual downfall. Alan and Sara highlight the tragic consequences of generational hurt, the limits of even the noblest ambitions when not checked by humility and empathy, and the lasting, fraught impact of parental influence.

The story—both Tolkien’s and the podcast’s—unspools themes relevant both within and beyond Middle-earth, making this episode a rich exploration for enthusiasts and new listeners alike.

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Further Resources

• Recommended listening:

  • PPP Episode 114 (Tolkien and Racism)
  • PPP Episode 192 (Panel on Race & Representation)

• Recommended reading:

  • The Nature of Middle-earth (Tolkien, ed. Carl F. Hostetter)
  • Tolkien, Race and Cultural History (Dimitra Fimi)
  • Unfinished Tales (Christopher Tolkien, ed.)

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Next Episode Preview

Expect a deeper look into Ancalimë’s adulthood, her reign as Númenor’s first ruling queen, further consequences of Aldarion and Erendis’s fractured union, and more discussion on colonialism, gender, and the fate of Númenor.

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“This has been far too short a time to spend among such excellent and admirable listeners…” — Alan Sisto [138:19]

Transcript

[Alan Sisto]

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[Sara Brown]

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[Alan Sisto]

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[Sara Brown]

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[Alan Sisto]

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[Sara Brown]

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[Alan Sisto]

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[Sara Brown]

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[Alan Sisto]

Good evening, little masters, and welcome to episode 394 of the Prancing Pony podcast, where the notes and jottings that make up the podcast episodes do not constitute the fragments of a wholly consistent story being composed at different times, so on.

[Sara Brown]

Not to mention how so many of your jokes are often at odds with.

[Alan Sisto]

Themselves and with a sense of humor. But that's a whole other story moving.

[Sara Brown]

Swiftly on from that. Folks, pull up a bench in the common room and join us. I'm Sara Brown, the shield maiden of Rohan, and I'm here with the man of the west who will certainly not be putting an eagle with a golden beak on the hood of his car, Alan Sisto.

[Alan Sisto]

Definitely not Though, to be fair, I'm also all out of Oyo Lyra, so you never know. Folks, join us, as Irendis isn't just a member of the Man Haters Club of Numenor. She's the president. As we return to Unfinished Tales and get into the further course of the narrative for two final weeks on Eldarian and Arendus. Happy New Year, by the way. We hope you enjoyed your two weeks away from this dysfunctional couple.

[Sara Brown]

I'm sure some people would have preferred four weeks away from these two.

[Alan Sisto]

Sorry, can't help you there.

[Sara Brown]

Exactly. Folks, no matter whether you come to Middle Earth through the books, the films, the TV show, or something else, each of you is welcome here in our common room. The Prancing Pony Podcast continues in our 10th season of Reading and talking our way through Middle Earth with conversations, digressions, and even some speculations.

[Alan Sisto]

And of course, a few puns and bad jokes here and there, mostly from Alan. Well, yeah, but our purpose, our intent, is to dive deep into the lore to discuss the story, our favorite characters, themes, Tolkien's inspirations, and a whole lot more.

[Sara Brown]

And while we take the work seriously, the same really cannot be said about ourselves. We're just a couple of friends chatting at the pub, and we're glad you joined us.

[Alan Sisto]

Now, instead of the usual intro segment, we're going to move straight into the chapter discussion today because we've got a long one for you. Sara, would you take us straight into the further course of the narrative?

[Sara Brown]

Okay, so this, of course, is beyond the story, as it were, but this gives us all the extras.

[Alan Sisto]

Oh, and some good extras at that.

[Sara Brown]

Some really, really useful extras. Okay, here we go. It seems that when Eldarion became King of Numenor in the year 883, he determined to revisit Middle Earth at once, and departed for Mithlon either in the same year or the next. It is recorded that on the prow of Hirolonde he set no bough of Olare, but the image of an eagle with golden beak and jewelled eyes, which was the gift of Cirdan. It perched there by the craft of its maker, as if poised for flight, unerring to some far mark that it espied. This sign shall lead us to our aim, he said. For our return, let the valar care if our deeds do not displease them. It is also stated that no records are now left of the later voyages that Aeldarion made, but that it is known that he went much on land as well as sea, and went up the river Gwathlo as far as Tharbad, and there met Galadriel. There is no mention elsewhere of this meeting, but at that time Galadriel and Celeborn were dwelling in Eregion at no great distance from Tharbad. But all Aldarion's labours were swept away. The works that he began again at Vignalonde were never completed, and the sea gnawed them. Nevertheless, he laid the foundation for the achievement of Tarminastir long years after, in the first war with Sauron. And but for his works, the fleets of Numenor could not have brought their power in time to the right place as he foresaw. Already the hostility was growing and dark men out of the mountains were thrusting into Enedwaith. But in Aldarion's day the Numenoreans did not yet desire more room. And his venturers remained a small people, admired, but little emulated.

[Alan Sisto]

And thus begins the further course of the narrative as laid out by Christopher. Of course we skipped the first paragraph. That's the one where he explains that after the moment we ended with last week when Eldarion was reading that letter, the rest of the story is in bits and pieces, or as he puts it, glimpses and snatches contained in notes and jottings only very much like our scripts, our notes for the episodes.

[Sara Brown]

Oh, I'd never make that comment to your face.

[Alan Sisto]

Of course not.

[Sara Brown]

Of course not. Not surprisingly, those jottings are barely even fragments of a story. They were written at different times and they conflict with each other at times. Still, he's labored to bring us more detail and that's where we picked up with some detail on the reign of King Aldarion.

[Alan Sisto]

Now remember that the last couple of episodes took place in second age 882. That's when he came back from the five year long two year journey time. What is time exactly? More like guidelines than actual rules. The scepter of course would be passed to him the following spring at the edo cherme. So it's 883 when he takes the throne. I just kind of wanted to set that timeline here for the beginning of the reign of King Eldarion.

[Sara Brown]

Yeah, and I think this is a good point to remind everyone about the ages of these two and of Numenorean aging. So let's just recap on all of this. Yeah, he Aldarion is 183 or the equivalent of about 53 when he ascends to the kingship. And to remind you also of the fact that his life is exceptionally long. And of course, Irendis's life was not true. More than half of his life will be spent as king.

[Alan Sisto]

Pretty amazing that he's 183 years old, but he's got more than half his life ahead of him. He'll actually be on the throne for 192 years and live for another 23 years after that, reaching 398, which is roughly 96 for mortal men. So again reminding us that the line of Elros is exceptionally long lived.

[Sara Brown]

Yeah, because even 96 for normal men is pretty decent.

[Alan Sisto]

I don't want to live to be 96, frankly, unless I'm in astounding health. I mean, I can't imagine really wanting to still stick around at 96.

[Sara Brown]

But that may be unless you're hale and hearty, right?

[Alan Sisto]

Well, yeah, I guess if I'm hale and hearty. Keep me around till 110. Arendus was born 71 years after Aldarian was 71 years. He was 71 years old when she was born. Right. He was 100 when they met. So she was only 112 at this point in the story, when Eldarion takes the throne, she dies barely halfway into his 192 year reign at the age of 214, which is equivalent to 59 years old.

[Sara Brown]

That's some difference.

[Alan Sisto]

Huge.

[Sara Brown]

59 in human years is nowhere near a good long age.

[Alan Sisto]

No.

[Sara Brown]

So he was alive 71 years before she was born and lived 113 years after she died. I think this really brings home the difference in the value of time to her versus the value of time to him.

[Alan Sisto]

Literally almost half his life without her. 398 years, but 184 of those without her even alive.

[Sara Brown]

I think this really puts in context one of the major reasons why him being away or him just being a kind of dilettante when it came to putting a ring on it.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah, there's many years of.

[Sara Brown]

Yeah, exactly that. This actually was detrimental to Arendis.

[Alan Sisto]

Anyway, thinking back to the line we said, where are my children? Where is your heir? My bed is long cold. You know, and look, we can talk about how maybe she didn't contribute to that. You know, maybe she played a role in that. But. But the fact of the matter is her lifetime, her lifespan was significantly shorter. And he knew that. He knew that when he gave her the diamond 50 years before he even proposed. Meneldur knew it and kept telling him her lifespan is shorter. So that's. That's really hard. Really hard. Nearly Half his life.

[Sara Brown]

It's tough to forgive him for that.

[Alan Sisto]

It really is.

[Sara Brown]

You know, we get one life and we get a certain span, and when we begin that life, we do not know what that span eventually will be. But one thing they did know was that horrendous lifespan would absolutely be shorter than Aldarion's. Unless, of course, he drowned at sea.

[Alan Sisto]

Or something like that. Possible. But, yeah, because otherwise he was going to live to close to 400. That's. We knew that that's the case. That's what the line of Elros does. Yeah. And the fact that she was already, you know, 100 years old, essentially 99 at their wedding, is just, you know, so much time wasted.

[Sara Brown]

Right.

[Alan Sisto]

Well, that aside, done. We are told that as soon as he became king, guess what? He decided to go back to Middle Earth. Anybody surprised?

[Sara Brown]

This is my shocked face.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah, I'm king. Nobody can stop me now.

[Sara Brown]

So, anyway, it was either 884 or 885 when he left for the Gray Havens. Again, more on this in the next reading. Because it was totally unheard of.

[Alan Sisto]

It was. But that. That's not mentioned until the next reading, so we'll leave that there. And when he left, also against the trad of Numenorean history, he changed the idea of the Green Bow of Return. Instead of setting the oil on the prow of the ship, he did something else.

[Sara Brown]

Yes. He places a carved eagle with gold beak and jewels for eyes on the prow instead. And interestingly, the eagle was a gift from Cirdan.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah.

[Sara Brown]

Now, Christopher gives us Tolkien's precise words about this. The description that it was, quote, poised for flight, unerring. And Tarael Daryon's words about the purpose of this new symbol.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah. In fact, I just got to point out right now, that symbol is what you've been seeing in the chapter art for the last several weeks. That is the eagle poised for flight with the jewel for its eye and the golden beak set against the oil. Ira, so stunning as always. Stunning work for Megan there. And I just wanted to draw your attention to that. That's the symbolism of that particular piece. But, yeah, the oil, of course, was always about the return to Numenor. In my mind, it's about the importance of Numenor, and it was called the Green Bow of Return. All. Yeah, but this eagle, he's seeing this as a thing to help them get where they're going. It isn't about Numenor. It's about the destination and the return. Well, that's just in the Hands of the Valar, Assuming we don't tick him off. I mean, I see so many different possibilities here. Is this just fatalism? Like, if we make it back, we make it back, you know, we're resigning ourselves to the hands of the Valar? Or is this simply a removal of a superstition? I also thought maybe this is a way of, like, when they make it back, because inevitably, most of the ships will make it back, even if they don't have Oyolaire on them. It's almost a way of saying, see, we didn't need that. That was unnecessary. You know, almost trashing a tradition that he now sees as tarnished because of its connection with Horrendous.

[Sara Brown]

But I really dislike the idea of calling it superstition, when, of course, it's so connected to the Valar. That's true.

[Alan Sisto]

And in this world, the Valar are very real, very active, very. So, yeah, thank you for calling that out. Yeah.

[Sara Brown]

Yeah. I mean, I've always read this in a particular way, which, you know, obviously your mileage may vary on this one.

[Alan Sisto]

Well, that's why we're both here. And it's why other people can draw their own conclusions.

[Sara Brown]

Absolutely. But here we have a man who has shown for pretty much the whole of his life that the most important thing to him is not really Numenor, that actually it's things outside of Numenor, preferably getting there by ship. But things outside of Numenor are the things that are most interesting to him, that bring him joy, that are his passion, if you like. And here to place, instead of the bow of returning, but to place on it, the gift from Cirdan shows for me that for Aldarion, the connection for him is stronger with what's on the other side of the sea than it is within Numenor. He's drawn more to Middle Earth than he is to his own home.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah.

[Sara Brown]

Now, you can argue as to just how good or bad this is. We were saying last episode, weren't we, that if only he'd been a second son, this would have been perfect.

[Alan Sisto]

Perfect. And an absolutely. Just talk about a wheelhouse of a role for him, Right? I mean, to be the military adjunct, the liaison to the elves, to be sort of the number one diplomat for King Meneldor as well as King whoever the first son would be. I mean, what a fantastic role.

[Sara Brown]

But, yes, would have suited him very well.

[Alan Sisto]

And he probably doesn't love Numenor.

[Sara Brown]

Fantastic at it, but he doesn't love Numenor. Right, Exactly. What you just Said he doesn't love Numenor. And so here's how I read it. It's not about fatalism. It's not whether he doesn't worry about whether he's going to get back to Numenor.

[Alan Sisto]

This isn't a shoulder shrug.

[Sara Brown]

Yeah, he just. It's just not important. What's important is what's on the other side.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah, I think you're right. I know it's tough. It's a beautiful thing. I mean, this gift from Ciridan is lovely. And it's just what it represents when Eldarion replaces the green bough return with it.

[Sara Brown]

Right. I mean, the positive side of what it represents is this connection that he's forging with the elves, which is important. We're not gonna not recognize what it is that he's doing. In fact.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah, I would dare say, like, why not both.

[Sara Brown]

Well, yes.

[Alan Sisto]

So now we've got a thing that helps us get to where we're going, but we're still going to use the oil. Because the return is important. And that's the thing. It's not that he's saying Middle Earth is also important. He's saying only Middle Earth is important.

[Sara Brown]

Yeah.

[Alan Sisto]

That's the hard part I have with this. It's not the raising up of Middle Earth, it's the demoting of the importance and value of Numenor.

[Sara Brown]

Yeah.

[Alan Sisto]

For a king.

[Sara Brown]

For a king. And that's the problem, isn't it? That is the hard part.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah. Second son, sure, but king, not the heir. No.

[Sara Brown]

Anyway, but Christopher then moves on and tells us that his father indicated no records are now left of his trips as king. Which is interesting because clearly there would be more records created about his travels as Tar El Darion simply because he was king. But there's a reason, right?

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah. I would imagine even better records for that, for that matter. But the point isn't that nobody documented these trips. The point is that those records didn't survive the downfall. And it's a reminder for us as the reader that in an in universe way, so to speak, we're lucky to get this story at all. Which always brings me back to that question we talked about at the very beginning. Like, why this story? Why the story of these two people this early in the history of Numenor? Arguably, why did Tolkien write this story? And no other long narrative of the Second Age? It's such a uniquely positioned tale. It's certainly the longest narrative in this part of the history of Middle Earth. It's certainly the deepest character study or one of the deepest character studies in all of the legendarium.

[Sara Brown]

Yes, it is.

[Alan Sisto]

It's just so interesting. Why this? I don't know if there's an answer to that, but I just really. It's a thing to ponder, that's for sure.

[Sara Brown]

Yeah. I think there's many answers to it, isn't there, that it's really helpful to us as the reader to. Because we know the story of the Fall of Numenor.

[Alan Sisto]

Right.

[Sara Brown]

To come back to this story and to see in it the seeds of that fall.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah. Like I talked about earlier, I think we start to see the shadow begin to fall in this story, we do years, generations before the fall begins.

[Sara Brown]

Absolutely. Because prior to Tar Eldarion, we have a set of kings who have prioritized the good of Numenor, who have been, you know, really focused on keeping Numenor peaceful and prosperous and making the most of the gift that they have been given by the Valar.

[Alan Sisto]

Which reminder, one of the names of this place is Elena. Right, The Land of Gift.

[Sara Brown]

Exactly. Yeah. But from Aeldarion onwards, we start to see more of a pattern of interest outside of Numenor. And in the passage that we read, and we'll get to this, is the idea that they didn't yet look for expansion, but that word yet is doing so much heavy lifting. We'll get to that.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah, we will.

[Sara Brown]

But, yeah, here in this story, in amongst the story of a man who was truly important in his connection with the elves and in the way that he set out the beginnings of the ability for the Numenoreans to help the elves when it became very important, even though it was after him, that this became necessary. So in amongst all of that, we have here in this story of terrible discord in one married couple, it's kind of a metaphor for things starting to fall apart.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah. Anyway, yeah, I think you're right.

[Sara Brown]

I know that's a rather involved answer.

[Alan Sisto]

But, I mean, I think that is one of them. But like you said, there's so many layers to this. So, listeners, please, we'd love to hear from you. Like, what are some of the reasons you think this story is the story of the Second Age? Why is this the one story that Tolkien sort of, you know, made sure that that was written? I mean, he didn't intend us, for us to necessarily read it. It's one of those things that never saw the light of day until Christopher brought it to us. But that's. That could be said of so many things, including the entire Silmarillion So.

[Sara Brown]

Indeed. Indeed. Yeah. So while there aren't any surviving records other than this particular tale.

[Alan Sisto]

Right.

[Sara Brown]

We are told that it is known that he wasn't just a sailor, that when he was in Middle Earth, he worked on the land as well. And of course he did. That's where the. Right.

[Alan Sisto]

Good point. Yeah. Remember, he was known as Aldarien. Right. Son of trees. It's even said that he went all the way up the Gwathlo to Tharbad, where he met with Galadriel. Now, that does fit with the history of Galadriel and Celeborn timeline, as we'll see in a couple of months with James.

[Sara Brown]

That'll be fun to go through, that's for sure. And we read there that Celeborn and Galadriel therefore went eastwards about the year 700 of the second age and established the primarily, but by no means solely, Noldorin realm of Eregn Gion.

[Alan Sisto]

And of course, Galadriel was there for 650 to 700 years, as we read that only once Sauron led the Gwaithi Miradine to revolt against their leadership, that at some time between 1350 and 1400 of the second age, she packed her bags and took up rule in Laura Nant. So leaving Celeborn behind, by the way, for a while, because he's like, I am not going through Moria. But that's. That's a whole nother story. We'll get to that another time. What do you think Eldarion and Galadriel talked about? I'd love to be a fly on the wall for that conversation.

[Sara Brown]

Wouldn't that be good? Yes. Oh, well, we can speculate like crazy here. I mean, they would. They would absolutely have talked about why Eldarion was there in the first place.

[Alan Sisto]

Right. Yeah. What are you doing here? You were given an entire land. This is. Why are you here?

[Sara Brown]

Why are you here?

[Alan Sisto]

Why are you back?

[Sara Brown]

And they would have discussed the shadow.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah, I think that's the primary thing.

[Sara Brown]

Yeah. I mean, Galadriel would know so much about it.

[Alan Sisto]

She would know so much. You know, she's on the. On the same level as Gil Galad, just not in terms of, you know, he's the High King of the Noldor. She's not. But there's going to be communication between those kingdoms or between those realms. So, yeah, she would be knowing what's going on. She would be fully up to speed on the fact that it's not just evil men, but that it is, in fact, Sauron. But I think she would have also been careful not to tell him anything that Gil Galad hadn't already told him. Remember, Gil Galad tells Meneldor he doesn't know it's Sauron by now. I imagine he does because he's king. So it's like, well, now you have to know this, but this would have been a very interesting conversation about what will their role be. What will the role of Numenor be in defending Eregion, in defending Eriador against the invasion, the potential invasion and plans would be made.

[Sara Brown]

And perhaps they also discussed the best places to go out to eat in Arabian.

[Alan Sisto]

Quite, quite possible.

[Sara Brown]

Where to catch the best shows, that sort of.

[Alan Sisto]

Where to get a little, you know, a little Easterling dinner or to. To, you know, find a little shop that serves some good Southern meals, you know.

[Sara Brown]

Exactly. And the good coffee places. These things would be really important. Can't just sit around, talk business all day.

[Alan Sisto]

No, not all day. All right.

[Sara Brown]

Anyway, that's when we get Tolkien's description of what happened as a result of Eldarion's efforts. And as is so often the case, his work was swept away and the work he did was never finished.

[Alan Sisto]

I always find that sad, but also a reminder of something Tolkien tells us a lot, right, which is just that these things will not last. Even the things that are ancient will not last, you know, forever. But this idea of the work being swept away, this takes us back to the history of Gladriel and Celeborn again, where we read about Lon Dyer, the Great Haven that it is, of course, that is to say, Lon Dyer. Christopher explains the Vignolande, or New Haven of Aldarian and Arendus, and referencing the.

[Sara Brown]

Fact that the works he began there were never completed. Christopher explains there that quote, this probably means no more than that they were never completed by him. For the later history of Lon Dyer presupposes that the Haven was at length restored and made secure from the assaults of the sea.

[Alan Sisto]

Now, even though his work at the time was destroyed, we are explicitly told in this passage, and this is really the critical part of Eldarion's role in history. You were kind of talking about this earlier, but here Tolkien spells it out for us nevertheless, he, talking about Aldarion, laid the foundation for the achievement of Tar Minastir long years after, in the first war with Sauron. And but for his works, the fleets of Numenor could not have brought their power in time to the right place, as he foresaw. So he gets credit for knowing this was going to Be important. He gets credit for laying the foundation. And it is only much later that those things come to fruition and that, you know, the benefits pay off. But boy, that is some really significant moments in history right there, tied to Aeldarian. So again, we can talk about, you know, the things that he could have done better, but we always need to point out what he did was critical.

[Sara Brown]

Absolutely, yeah. Now this was totally critical.

[Alan Sisto]

Saved the west in the Second Age.

[Sara Brown]

That is why Gil Galad sent that letter, because in his wisdom, he understood that actually they would once again need the help of the high men.

[Alan Sisto]

Right, yeah.

[Sara Brown]

With the problem of Sauron, Just like.

[Alan Sisto]

They did at the end of the First Age, when it was Morgoth.

[Sara Brown]

Yeah, absolutely. So let's talk a bit about Tarmanastir. As he's been brought up in our conversation. He was the 11th king of Numenor who received the scepter in second age 1731. Now that's about 650 years after the end of Tar El Darion's reign.

[Alan Sisto]

So some 800 plus years from now, Right?

[Sara Brown]

Yes. And his achievement that this references is his sending a great fleet to the aid of Gil Galad in the first war against Sauron.

[Alan Sisto]

Now, in the history of Galadriel and Celeborn, we learn the Precise timing. In 1695, when Sauron invaded Eriador, Gil Galad called on Numenor for aid. Then Tar Minaster the king sent out a great navy, but it was delayed and did not reach the coast to Middle Earth until the year 1700. I want to address something that may be kind of obvious if you've noticed. We said that in year 1700, Tarminastor the King sent out a great navy. But earlier we said he didn't get the scepter until 1731. We'll talk more about that when we get to the history of Galadriel and Celeborn. But it seems like the easy answer is he was not the king at that time, but he was later the king. So the historian simply wrote down Tarmin Aster, the king, even though he wouldn't actually be king until 30 some odd years later.

[Sara Brown]

Right. But the specific reference to Vignolonde is because after Sauron's defeat in the north, quote, he suddenly found a host of the Numenoreans again in his rear. For Kiryatur, Minaster's lead admiral, had put a strong force ashore. Mouth of the Gwathlo, also known as the Grey Flood, where there was a small Numenorean harbour.

[Alan Sisto]

Ah, small Numenorean Harbour, which of course was the one that. That he began all those years before.

[Sara Brown]

Yep.

[Alan Sisto]

Now, next we get a line that I want to spend a little bit of time on. Already the hostility was growing. We've talked about that before because of the deforestation and everything. And dark men out of the mountains were thrusting into Enedwaith way back in.

[Sara Brown]

Episode 386, which was just our third episode on Aeldarion.

[Alan Sisto]

Sounds like a long time.

[Sara Brown]

All the way back in October, we read some passages from Appendix D in the History of Galadriel and Celeborn. First one explained what the land looked like before the arrival of the Numenoreans. It said Minhirid and Enedwaid were occupied by vast and almost continuous forests, except in the central region of the Great Fens.

[Alan Sisto]

And we also learned about the people that lived in Enedwaith at the time. They were numerous and they were warlike too, but they lived in sort of spread out communities without unified leadership. And of course they. They were afraid of the Numenoreans, a pretty mighty and impressive force, but they were not initially hostile to them. It was only after the tree felling became devastating that these forces began to attack the Numenoreans and were then treated as enemies. And that's where I want to get into this question of the dark men out of the mountains. Now, the early inhabitants of the forests of Enedwaith were actually kin of the folk of Haleth. So they are actually related to one of the houses of the Edain. The challenge there is that the folk of Haleth, their language was completely unrelated to the language that the folk of Hador and the Folk of Beor used. And that led to some issues down the road, didn't it?

[Sara Brown]

It did Remember that those who survived would, depending on where they fled, become one, the Men of Bree absorbed into Arnor or two, the Dunlendings.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah. And boy, we. I'm looking forward to some more in depth moments with the Dunlendings because I feel like they've gotten sort of the short end of the stick here because.

[Sara Brown]

I do a bit too. Yeah.

[Alan Sisto]

I mean, the Numenoreans come in and destroy their forest and drive them out of their land. And so then they flee and they go down to Calenardhon and then they get driven out of there when Gondor says, no, we're gonna give this to Rohan, no wonder.

[Sara Brown]

And then we ask why. They're a bit grumpy about that.

[Alan Sisto]

Right, right, exactly. But that brings me to this question then, when Tolkien says dark men out of the mountains were thrusting into Enedwaith. Is he only referring to the fact that these are people that we would consider the Men of Darkness, that is, men who'd fallen under either Morgoth's dominion in the First Age or dominated by Sauron in the Second Age? Or is this some sort of a racial description, like swarthy? Or that awful description of the Men of the Far Harad, the ones that were like, black half trolls, you know, these kinds of things? Is this more Men of Darkness, or is this a racial description? What do you think?

[Sara Brown]

Right. This is always going to be a difficult question to answer, isn't it? There's a few things here.

[Alan Sisto]

That's why I give it to you.

[Sara Brown]

I know. Do you know the wheels of that bus you throw me under? They're always a bit uncomfortable.

[Alan Sisto]

I tried to get nice little padding on the wheels and everything. I know. You threw spikes on the one that it threw me under.

[Sara Brown]

Yeah, that's way more fun for me. Okay, so when he talks about Men of Darkness, he capitalizes that Men of Darkness, therefore, it is a name.

[Alan Sisto]

Here it is not.

[Sara Brown]

No. When he refers to dark Men, neither dark nor men are capitalized. Tolkien was very good at capitalizing where he wanted it to be. A name, some kind of nomenclature that fits a description of a culture or a people. And here he's not doing that.

[Alan Sisto]

That.

[Sara Brown]

So it invites us, therefore, to read it as a description rather than as a name. Now, we can read dark as a description in so many different ways. You turn to the dictionary and how many definitions of dark are you going to find? Yeah, okay. One of those definitions of dark will do. Will have to do with things like evil, for example. One of them will have to do with skin color.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah.

[Sara Brown]

It's left up to us to decide how. Therefore, we are going to read it. Now, for me and for other people, not everybody, it invites a reading that understands that as a skin color. And if it is a skin color, if then we look at what Tolkien says these dark men do.

[Alan Sisto]

Right.

[Sara Brown]

And that would then connect. Exactly. That would then connect what he is doing with this descriptor of dark men. This is why it's a complicated question, because there are a number of arguments against this reading. One which is one that I. I tend to dismiss because for many reasons is the Tolkien was a man of his time kind of argument. That doesn't work. And it doesn't work for so many reasons, because if you try and make that argument, what you're trying to tell me is that in the mid 20th century there was no understanding of racism. And I don't believe you.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah.

[Sara Brown]

Also, we have a man here who very much understood racism. He was very against opposing.

[Alan Sisto]

Very opposed to it. Correctly.

[Sara Brown]

Exactly. So this is not a man who is unaware of the implications of racism.

[Alan Sisto]

That is true.

[Sara Brown]

So that is one of the arguments that I don't tend to pay a great deal of attention to because I think it's actually rather demeaning to Tolkien.

[Alan Sisto]

I was about to say that's exactly where I was going with that. Like, you know, now that I think about it, that really kind of says, well, Tolkien doesn't know what he was saying because he's just a product of his time. But I think you're right, that does sort of demean his own clear statements about it. I know that that was something, you know, he didn't like the word Nordic in relation to being Middle Earth. He said that it is associated, though, of French origin with racialist theories. He did not like that word specifically because of the racist implications.

[Sara Brown]

Exactly. So he was very aware. I think we should get away from this idea that Tolkien was an Edwardian or even, goodness forbid, a Victorian, which he clearly wasn't because he may have been born in the Victorian. Sorry, the Edwardian time, and he grew up in the Edwardian time, but he was very much a man who moved through the 20th century. He didn't die until towards the end of the 20th century.

[Alan Sisto]

73.

[Sara Brown]

Yeah, exactly. Now, he didn't stay in a bubble.

[Alan Sisto]

No. And this writing has to have been done more like the late 50s, early 60s. From what I can recall Christopher explaining, this is after Lord of the Rings.

[Sara Brown]

It is. It is. And it's post empire. It is during the time of apartheid when it was brought into being in South Africa. Something he absolutely would have known about. So, you know, let's not demean Tolkien's intelligence by trying to make that the argument. Instead, let's stand back and look at what are the potential ways of reading this. And of course, as a reader, it's very subjective. And that means I get to read it in a way or maybe more than one way. And you could read it in a totally different way. And our listeners would perhaps have all their own ways of reading this.

[Alan Sisto]

And all of those are valid.

[Sara Brown]

Right.

[Alan Sisto]

How you read it is valid. The only thing that wouldn't be valid is if you were to claim Tolkien meant this.

[Sara Brown]

Yeah.

[Alan Sisto]

Only when you go there and say, well, Tolkien meant to say this. Unless you have something in the Letters or in the history of Middle Earth with scribbled notes where he literally makes his intent clear. We really can't do that.

[Sara Brown]

Yeah.

[Alan Sisto]

And even then, especially the letters, you have to take those with a grain of salt.

[Sara Brown]

Well, yeah, because one of the things people forget is, well, who did he write that letter to?

[Alan Sisto]

If I should have said if. It's a letter to Christopher, you know, those are very open, very transparent. Very. Yes.

[Sara Brown]

Yep. So, of course, then that brings in the question of. And this is always a controversial question, was Tolkien a racist?

[Alan Sisto]

Well, that's a question much larger than the scope of this discussion.

[Sara Brown]

Absolutely. And it's not one I really want to get into here, but, you know, it's like any other big question like that. It's complicated.

[Alan Sisto]

It is. It was complicated enough we spent a couple episodes on, and even then didn't come to a conclusion. And, folks, if you do want some more discussion on that, I'd recommend first going Back to episode 114, which was Sean and I, our look at Tolkien and racism. And then also episode 192, where you came to the realization that as two white guys, we had our own unique perspectives that were very limited in what we could sort of see clearly. And so we brought on a panel of listeners to help talk through it. Folks who were people of color who, you know, had their own unique perspectives and understandings. So if you want to explore that topic, episodes 114, season three, and 192.

[Sara Brown]

In season five, which I think would be absolutely wonderful to do, it's just.

[Alan Sisto]

A good place to start. And then Demetra Feemi has an excellent book on it. Right?

[Sara Brown]

Oh, Tolkien, Race and Cultural History.

[Alan Sisto]

That's a must read.

[Sara Brown]

Superb book.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah.

[Sara Brown]

Yes, absolutely. Absolutely. Yes. Well worth reading. So I would just. I want to just leave that conversation there with the comment that there are so many times when Tolkien talks about race and you will get into that even more with the other races that you're going to come up against.

[Alan Sisto]

We're going to come up again in appendix D about Londire and sort of all the deforestation again. So we're going to revisit that more in depth and talk about the effects of the Numenoreans expansion on the native inhabitants. We talk about it with Tal Elmar. It's impossible to not talk about it with Tal Elmar.

[Sara Brown]

Absolutely.

[Alan Sisto]

And then when Don Marshall and I talk about the Druidyne towards the end of the season, again, how can that not come up?

[Sara Brown]

So, yes, and I think that will be absolutely fascinating and I can't wait to listen to all of that because it's going to be wonderful.

[Alan Sisto]

Except that I'm not looking forward to trying to write through those. Got a job ahead of me. Thank you.

[Sara Brown]

I have faith in you.

[Alan Sisto]

Appreciate that.

[Sara Brown]

But let's return to the story that we have.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah.

[Sara Brown]

Because at this point, we have this reminder that early on in the kingdom, here in Aldarion's time, the Numenoreans had no need for Lebensraum.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah, they didn't call it that in the text, but I mean, come on, folks, you can read between the lines.

[Sara Brown]

That's what it was.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah, yeah. But the earlier mention of Tarminastir really does come back here because it was after his victory that things changed. Quote, the Numenoreans had tasted power in Middle Earth, and from that time forward, they began to make permanent settlements on the western coasts. That time, according to the tale of years, is around circa 1800. So right after that first war with Sauron. And that is if this is like the very beginning of the Shadow. This is the Shadow taking flight.

[Sara Brown]

Yes.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah, I agree with you. The sort of this colonial approach, the domination of the coast of Middle Earth, even though at first they were trying to be helpful and. And teaching people how to do better agricultural techniques and things like that, it didn't last.

[Sara Brown]

No, almost inevitably not, I think because of the way in which the Numenoreans then perceived themselves as being this naval power. And if we want to start drawing equal signs, we can look at how this is very like Britain in some ways, for sure.

[Alan Sisto]

And we'll get to this later when it comes to Arrindus analysis of the men of Numenor and how their view of the natural world was simply resources to pillage. Yes, yes, and we'll get to that, though.

[Sara Brown]

Definitely. And when you get to the tale of Tal Elmar, once again, you will really touch on it then, because of the notes that Tolkien himself makes on it. But this doesn't surprise me at all, this quote, that the Numenoreans had tasted power and then they went from there.

[Alan Sisto]

That's an indictment, isn't it? Tasted power. And that's why they began to make these settlements.

[Sara Brown]

And it comes back to the reason why we have this tale of Eldarion and Arendys. Yes, it does, because that's where it all begins. It has to start somewhere.

[Alan Sisto]

It does.

[Sara Brown]

And that's where it starts.

[Alan Sisto]

Even if it takes nearly 800 years to come to fruition. Actually more than 800 years. Nearly a thousand years. To come to fruition. That's what eventually takes place.

[Sara Brown]

Yep. And I think it's actually wonderful that we have this really powerful, very detailed story, even though it's not finished, that gives us that insight. Because without the tale of Aldarion and Arendys, you have this massive gap as to why the fall of Numenor happens at all.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah, I mean, we all get the final push over the edge. I mean, Sauron and our Pharazon, that's easy to spot. But why did they even get themselves in that position? How did they come there? How did it get to this point? And this story tells us that that's one of the other reasons why Tolkien included it. Yeah.

[Sara Brown]

It also gives you the insight into why it is that Sauron didn't like the Numenoreans. Yeah, it's from this point on.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah, it absolutely is. They're interfering with his ability to take.

[Sara Brown]

Over Middle Earth and he does not like that.

[Alan Sisto]

No, no, no.

[Sara Brown]

So back, back to the tale. It talks about his guild adventurers now, though, folks still looked up to them. Or looked up to them once more, since they did fall out of favor for a time.

[Alan Sisto]

They did. That's true.

[Sara Brown]

They were still a small group. That means they weren't large enough to become an imperial force. And there was at this point no interest or drive to expand yet again with the heavy lifting of that word.

[Alan Sisto]

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[Sara Brown]

Yep, the PPP really does have a warm and welcoming listener community. If you've got questions or just want to talk about how much you love Middle Earth, be sure to check out our common room on Facebook and across all social media. Now on Facebook, just look for the Prancing Pony Podcast. And yes, there is a page, but you're going to want to join the group for that great fan community now.

[Alan Sisto]

On every social media platform other than Facebook. We are at Prancing Pony Podcast. You can find our subreddit @r prancingponypod. And be sure to check out my Daily show, today's Tolkien Times on YouTube and your favorite podcast apps. Get your daily Middle Earth fix with everything from Word Nerd Wednesdays to Silmarillion Saturdays. Be sure to watch or [e-mail] prancingponypod.

[Sara Brown]

Now let's get straight back into the story, shall we?

[Alan Sisto]

There is no mention of any further development of the alliance with Gil Galad or of the sending of the aid that he requested in his letter to Tar Meneldor. It is said indeed that Aldarion was too late or too early. Too late for the power that hated Numenor had already waked too early, for the time was not yet ripe for Numenor to show its power or to come back into the battle for the world. There was a stir in Numenor when Tar Aldarien determined to return to Middle Earth in 883 or 884, for no king had ever before left the Isle, and the Council had no precedent. It seems that Meneldur was offered, but refused, the regency, and that Halatan of Hierostorni became regent, either appointed by the Council or by Tar Eldarien himself. Of the history of Ankarame during those years when she was growing up, there is no certain form, there is less doubt concerning her somewhat ambiguous character and the influence that her mother exerted on her. She was less prim than Orendus and natively liked display, jewels, music, admiration and deference. But she liked them at will and not unceasingly, and she made her mother and the White House in Emeri an excuse for escape. She approved, as it were, both Hirendius treatment of Eldarion on his late return, but also Eldarion's anger, impenitence, and subsequent relentless dismissal of Arendus from his heart and concern. She had a profound dislike of obligatory marriage and in marriage, of any constraint on her will.

[Sara Brown]

Ooh. So much to unpack.

[Alan Sisto]

I was gonna say. This is gonna be a long one. All right.

[Sara Brown]

So the key political historical moment in this story, the letter from Gil Galad to Meneldr that prompted him to resign the scepter to Aldarion early, well, that literally goes nowhere after this.

[Alan Sisto]

It's like, whatever, here's the scepter, son, because you got to deal with this important thing.

[Sara Brown]

And that's that.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah.

[Sara Brown]

Now, Christopher telling us that Tolkien doesn't say anything more about the alliance with the elves of Gil Galad or even of the aid that Meneldor couldn't send, but figured Aldarion would send.

[Alan Sisto]

That's the whole reason he resigned the scepter.

[Sara Brown]

Yeah.

[Alan Sisto]

We do, though, get a clear statement about the timing of all this in terms of the history of the Second Age. And this is interesting because Tolkien himself writes that Aldarion was both too late and too early. It was too late because Sauron had already arisen and was moving. His plans were in action. Stopping him a few hundred years earlier might have been useful, but, you know, it was around 500 that he began to stir. But how could Numenor have known that? And what could they have done at that point? They hadn't even returned to the shores of Middle Earth.

[Sara Brown]

Right. Too early, Tolkien said, because the time was not yet ripe. What do you think he means here? I mean, after all, 1695 was barely on time and 1700 was almost too late. I mean, when would the time have been ripe? It's almost like when you get a bowl of pears and they're rock hard, rock hard, rock hard. And you wait for them to be ripe and then suddenly they're mush.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah, yeah.

[Sara Brown]

I mean, where's that sweet spot?

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah, there's about a five minute window where they're good and it's usually at.

[Sara Brown]

3Am and you're fast asleep.

[Alan Sisto]

Exactly. You know, I feel like maybe what he's saying here about not yet ripe at this time, the time of Eldarien. I mean, I don't know that I can answer the question about when the time would have been ripe. We touched on it a little bit at the end of the last reading. The Guild Adventures was still a small group. I don't think they had the ability yet to project power. Right. Not on a scale that it would have taken to have an impact align with the Elves. Even if they could have sent over a thousand men and half a dozen ships, that's going to be peanuts in comparison to what Gil Galad needs and what what Ciridan could muster himself. So I think that's probably the implication here for Eldarion in his time. But yeah, 1695 was almost too late. So I don't know, maybe 100 years before that would have been good. But we'll learn as we get into the Numenorean kings and queens. Not all of them took the events of Middle Earth seriously. In fact, Ankalame will be one of them. Them and very much sets the tone for that. But go ahead and put on your speculation hat, Sara, and tell me what you think would have happened had Tar Al Darien sailed with all his ships. Let's say it was 6, 8, 10. Some relatively, you know, like a number. It's not one. And put himself and his forces under Gil Galad's command.

[Sara Brown]

So long as my speculation hat could be a really big straw hat with lots of purple feathers.

[Alan Sisto]

Sure, whatever you want. It's not a video podcast, thankfully.

[Sara Brown]

I don't think much would have happened because nothing was actually happening at the time. Gil Galad was aware that the Shadow was rising, but it wasn't tangible. There was no Orc army to actually rise against.

[Alan Sisto]

There was no place to attack, no fortress to go and try to take no army to defeat.

[Sara Brown]

Exactly. So I think Aldarion and his ships would have sat there.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah.

[Sara Brown]

And sat there and burned through their.

[Alan Sisto]

Supplies and been like, well, now we gotta go home.

[Sara Brown]

Exactly. So I really. I don't think very much would have happened at all. I mean, what do you think?

[Alan Sisto]

No. 100%. I. I think at this point, the threat of the Shadow is very real, don't get me wrong. But there's no, shall we say, vulnerable point. There's no fortress, there's no. There's no Badadour being built that you could go in it. Yeah, exactly. It's like, what are you going to do if the thing to attack is just a mist, it's literally a shadow at this point, what do you do? Nothing. You got to wait for it to take shape, to take form, that you can then go on the offensive against it. And it just hasn't done that.

[Sara Brown]

And the fact is that it doesn't take shape until well after Aldarion's time. So the fact that he puts preparation in place is a good thing.

[Alan Sisto]

It is.

[Sara Brown]

But it is not in his time that this will happen.

[Alan Sisto]

That's correct. Again, he is farsighted. We've talked about that.

[Sara Brown]

Absolutely.

[Alan Sisto]

You know, he's not very farsighted when it comes to relationships. He can't think beyond 30 seconds from now. But when it comes to history, he certainly can.

[Sara Brown]

But it is kind of nice, isn't it, that his foresightedness and the things he thinks must be done kind of gel with the things he wants to do?

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah, it's pretty handy, isn't it? That's why we keep saying he'd have been a perfect second son. Yeah.

[Sara Brown]

Bless him.

[Alan Sisto]

So breaking with Numenorean standards yet again, after taking the scepter sails back to Middle Earth a year or two later, like we mentioned in the last section, but here we're told specifically this just does not happen.

[Sara Brown]

Which really gels with what we've learned from Meneldur and his attitude towards what Aldarion's been doing. No, no, no kings stay here. No king in the nearly 900 years of the history of Numenor has left the island while he is king. And there's good reasons for that, don't you think?

[Alan Sisto]

There's very good reasons. I mean, you don't want to risk harm to the king during. Can you imagine if the king in his sailing about did sink? Right. If the ship carrying the king went under and the king is lost, you don't want to risk that.

[Sara Brown]

No, that's not going to be a good thing.

[Alan Sisto]

But also just the governance of the Isle. This is a large. Especially by this point. We're 1000 years almost into the history of the kingdom and the population is continuing to grow. We've got groups and factions and things going on. We've got a government to maintain. And you're the king. You are the decision maker, the sole decision makers. We've talked about before, the council had no authority, no legal authority. They could just advise. So every decision has to be made by the king. Decision maker's gone. Paralysis.

[Sara Brown]

Exactly. There's a reason why there is a king.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah, exactly.

[Sara Brown]

There is a leader. There is a person who makes the decisions. If the person who makes the decisions isn't there, then things are going to fall apart.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah. No decisions can be made. And I mean, I suppose if you're gone for a week, up into the hillsides of the Midsommar for vacation, A, you could be contacted in a matter of hours, and B, you're. You're not going to die while you're gone. You're not going to be gone for five years. So, you know, we can. We can maybe make some decisions to hold off in the meantime if there's an emergency. But. But to be gone for years.

[Sara Brown]

So that does beg the question, while Tar Aldarion is away.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah.

[Sara Brown]

Who's in charge in Numenor?

[Alan Sisto]

Well, that's the thing, right. The text gives us some clues who's making the decisions.

[Sara Brown]

Yeah. I mean, the council had nothing to look back on. To advise the king on how to proceed were he to do any of these things.

[Alan Sisto]

Right.

[Sara Brown]

And of course, they have no legal power to stop him.

[Alan Sisto]

Nobody does. That's why he's doing this. Interestingly, the former king himself, who had just stepped down, was offered the regency but declined after. I think I decline to acquiesce to your request means no. I mean, there's a reason he stepped down. Like I want to go back into that. Are you kidding me? I just retired. Do not pull me back in.

[Sara Brown]

Yeah. So, interestingly, Halatan becomes the regent. Halatan, the biggest supporter of Aldarion, becomes the regent. I mean, if this was a modern political story, I would immediately have suspicions about it.

[Alan Sisto]

I'd be subpoenaing the emails and the text messages. Yeah.

[Sara Brown]

And perhaps this is one of those things where we have two different versions of the story, because Christopher Wright's either appointed by the Council or by Tar Eldarion himself, and that suggests at least two written versions.

[Alan Sisto]

You know, along with the mention of the two different years too, because he's said to have sailed either the next year or the year after. But the whole idea of the regency being given to Halatan or being even offered to Meneldur suggests that the concept and office of a regent existed. But presumably for things like we talked about earlier, you know, a vacation, the Mittelmar or maybe illness where he's, you know, unable to make decisions for a few days because he's, you know, high fever or whatever, but not because the king would leave Numenor. That's radically different. To make short term decisions, to just sustain while you get the king back, that's one thing. But to say I don't even know when he's going to be back, it could be three years from now, five.

[Sara Brown]

Years from now, I think that's nuts, isn't it?

[Alan Sisto]

That is crazy.

[Sara Brown]

We do know that the Numenoreans didn't suffer much from illness, particularly the line of Elros.

[Alan Sisto]

That is true.

[Sara Brown]

So illness is going to be a.

[Alan Sisto]

Very minor, almost unheard of. Yeah, exactly.

[Sara Brown]

And yes, maybe a king wants to take a vacation every now and then. Fine. But again, they're not going to be off on their own and they would be contactable.

[Alan Sisto]

No, they're going to be on the island and they're going to be within communication reach and you know, worst case scenario, come back and it takes you a day to get back and then you make your decisions at court and everything's good. But to be months and months away, years away and incommunicado.

[Sara Brown]

It's unprecedented.

[Alan Sisto]

It would be. Yeah.

[Sara Brown]

Yes. Yeah. But I wonder what you think Howelltown would be empowered to do during this time as a regent, Especially if it's not something that's been done much before.

[Alan Sisto]

That's true. With no precedent, you wouldn't necessarily even have a set of written rules as to, you know, the, the powers and constraints that Holoton would be acting under. One assumes at least that. Or at least I'm assuming one assumes that one being me, that, that he'd be acting, you know, basically do what you think I would be doing, you know.

[Sara Brown]

Yes.

[Alan Sisto]

WW wwtad. What would Tar El Darian do?

[Sara Brown]

Oh, don't take that too literally. Is a married man.

[Alan Sisto]

He is.

[Sara Brown]

That's true.

[Alan Sisto]

What would he decide rather than do?

[Sara Brown]

Yeah, yeah, I agree. I don't think there could be any other way. If the king is going to be away for years, which he must be.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah. I mean anytime you sail it's going to Be a minimum of two years to get to Gil Gallatin back. I wonder if they would have required more of the Council, like, under this situation. If I'm. If I'm the king and I'm leaving and I'm placing my authority into. Into Holotan's hands, I might say. But any decision outside of these base core decisions need to be made by a majority of the council members. Yeah, yeah, that kind of thing. So that at least you're getting a notional spreading around of that responsibility and a less likelihood of a mistake being made.

[Sara Brown]

And also you don't want someone deciding that actually I'm king.

[Alan Sisto]

Exactly. By the way, now that I'm regent, I am changing the laws of all of these things.

[Sara Brown]

If the king isn't here for, ooh, let's say 24 months.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah, exactly.

[Sara Brown]

Anytime after that, that means I'm king.

[Alan Sisto]

Bingo. Done. I'm king. Yeah, you're right. I think that's. You'd have to do that to prevent. I was going to say to prevent corruption, but one of the things that we talked about the Council earlier is that not only do they not have any. Any power to make the king do anything, there was never even a notion that they would have to. Like, there was never a desire to have that power, which implies strongly that they would never have needed to exercise that power. Like, these are good people. They make good decisions. Aldarian maybe the exception that proves the rule.

[Sara Brown]

But.

[Alan Sisto]

But, you know, I don't know. It's. It's an interesting question. Like, what in the world. Holotan is going to basically be king for a number of years off and on during Aeldarion's reign. Yeah.

[Sara Brown]

Yes. Yes, indeed. Now, I want to talk about the second part of this section that we read.

[Alan Sisto]

Oh, yes. This is where it gets interesting, isn't it? Yes.

[Sara Brown]

Because that moves us from Aldarion's reign, and I'm actually going to put that in scare quotes as king, to the years of Ancalime's young adulthood. And Christopher explains that there is no certain form to the history of her growing up years.

[Alan Sisto]

Correct. But we do get details about her character as well as the impact that her mom's had on her. And that is where we're going to be spending some time and bashing Arendus a little bit, I imagine.

[Sara Brown]

Oh, absolutely. 100%.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah. This is. If y' all think we've been too hard on Eldarion, don't worry. Arrindis gets her turn. This episode is definitely where she gets hers for sure.

[Sara Brown]

Oh, definitely. But we do get some specific character examples, which are. Apparently, Arendus was very proper, formal, demure, prim. That doesn't surprise us, I think.

[Alan Sisto]

No.

[Sara Brown]

But Ancalome is less so.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah, that's interesting. She seems to like the trappings of wealth and power. Right. The jewels, the parties, as well as the admiration, as well as the deference. She definitely liked the position she held in society, which is something that we see. Arrindis didn't really enjoy that. So there's a strong difference in their personalities there.

[Sara Brown]

Although possibly Erendis might have enjoyed it a little more if her marriage had gone the way that she thought it would.

[Alan Sisto]

That is true. That is true.

[Sara Brown]

But no, Arendis absolutely loathes being in company.

[Alan Sisto]

She doesn't like the busyness of the harbor towns. She didn't even necessarily seem to enjoy herself at the party that she went to with Halatan, you know, on the adventure, the. On the anniversary of the Guild adventurers and all of that stuff. So she loves the countryside, but then again, so does on Calome. But, yeah, this is, I think, just helping us see that she is not Erendis Part two. She's not a clone. She is her own woman. And she's very much a mix of both, as we'll see. Yeah.

[Sara Brown]

Yes. And I think, unfortunately, she has inherited the worst possible aspects of both of her parents.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah. Just wait till we get to the next set of character traits where she's inherited some things from her father that are just like. Oh, gosh, no, about this.

[Sara Brown]

Yeah, Yeah. I mean, you and I have talked about this a little bit before, but I feel so desperately sorry for Ancalame because this is a damaged child. But we will get to that.

[Alan Sisto]

We will.

[Sara Brown]

Yeah.

[Alan Sisto]

We will indeed.

[Sara Brown]

Now, all of these things that she likes, that we're told that she likes, we're told. Also this is really interesting that she could choose to not like these at will.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah.

[Sara Brown]

So it was less a matter of, let's say, insecurity where she needed these things, and it was more a matter of perhaps simple pleasure taken in it, but that she could also leave it behind when she was done.

[Alan Sisto]

That's a nice thing. I mean, I like that that's a character strength, for sure, that she's like, you know, look, I like these things. They're enjoyable. They bring me pleasure, but I don't need them. They don't have to be a part of my life. And that shows kind of a striking maturity for somebody relatively young, that she's not grown to be dependent on those things. So as a result of this blend, right. Liking the fancy things, but not all the time. She would. She would go back and forth. She'd tell her dad, I have to go back to the mrea. She has to go back and see her mom.

[Sara Brown]

You did not.

[Alan Sisto]

I did.

[Sara Brown]

You did not Beatle it.

[Alan Sisto]

I did. I beatled the whole series. We're 10 episodes in. The titles have all been. This might have been the worst.

[Sara Brown]

I'm amazed that you haven't actually sung a horrendous hey, prude yet. Thank you. Thank you. I'll be here all week.

[Alan Sisto]

I will say, like I did want to say to Eldarion, you got to let her get under your skin, man. You know, you've got to. This is the relationship early on was very much a hey, Jude, like, you want her, you need to let her get inside. You got to let her affect you, man. But anyway, yeah, too late for that.

[Sara Brown]

No, way too late.

[Alan Sisto]

Way too late.

[Sara Brown]

Yeah. You can't get back now. It's just way too late.

[Alan Sisto]

No, definitely, definitely can't get back now.

[Sara Brown]

I think we need to move on from this.

[Alan Sisto]

We do need to move on. Let's go to the next street over. I think it's called Penny. No. We could do this all day.

[Sara Brown]

I started this.

[Alan Sisto]

Somebody help me.

[Sara Brown]

Oh, no.

[Alan Sisto]

Please, no. All right, so she goes back to the Emeria and her mom. It was her escape valve, right? I mean, it's a much more pleasant place out there in some ways, as we'll get to.

[Sara Brown]

It's calm, it's peaceful.

[Alan Sisto]

Yes. It's quiet, if nothing else. Yeah.

[Sara Brown]

Yeah. When she was nine and we wondered what she thought as a little girl watching her parents treat each other this way. Okay, well, now we find out.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah.

[Sara Brown]

The teenager text tells us that she approved, as it were, the way they each behaved.

[Alan Sisto]

That's an interesting one, isn't it? I mean, how do you approve of that?

[Sara Brown]

Do you think Tolkien means here by approved understood and would not or could not condemn or literally approves of?

[Alan Sisto]

I think the way it says approved, as it were, is sort of a way of acknowledging it's not really, like, full on condoning so much as she gets it. And she could never say a bad word against either of them for the way they treated each other, because of the way they treated each other, which.

[Sara Brown]

Actually does show a level of understanding that neither of her parents have really shown.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah. But also a scary level of detachment. Almost. Almost. A little bit of a sociopathic sort of like no empathy yet for either of Them.

[Sara Brown]

But that is not surprising, is it? She was not exactly brought up in love and comfort. Not at all.

[Alan Sisto]

Little enough laughter. Remember that. That still stings, thinking about a child growing up in an environment with no joy.

[Sara Brown]

Yeah. We've talked about how this was possibly passed down from Arendus. Mother.

[Alan Sisto]

Yes, yes.

[Sara Brown]

Who does not seem to me to be the most fabulous, warm or maternal of folks.

[Alan Sisto]

No, no. Nuneth is calculating and. And conniving and scheming and very detached. She has zero empathy for her daughter. When her daughter's heart is broken, you know, she's like, well, she's not going to come back here. And, you know, you knew what you were getting into. Like, what? This is your daughter and you're speaking like this of her. That's. I think you're right. There's definitely some multigenerational trauma going on here because it's not only Nuneth to Arrendis and then Hirendus to Ankalame, but as we'll see at the very end, Ankalame to her granddaughters. Yes, it's nasty.

[Sara Brown]

It's really awful. And, you know, just because it is generational trauma does not let Arrendus off the hook.

[Alan Sisto]

No, it does not. I mean, it gives us grounds to be more empathetic to the struggle, like, to be like, I can see why this is so hard, but it does not get you off the hook.

[Sara Brown]

No, no, because she could have broken that cycle.

[Alan Sisto]

She absolutely could have. It's up to her to do it. She must have and she didn't. She failed, but then. And Calomeh failed as well. I think the further you get along, the harder it is to do that. But that doesn't, again, get anybody off the hook because we'll. We haven't passed on column yet. But again, just wait. What she does to her husband and then her granddaughters is just beyond the pale. They're really, really hideous. This does create a strong implication, though, this whole idea of her in the text being us being told what she thought of them and the way they treated each other at that moment. Right. It was his late arrival that we're. We're talking about. So she's nine. Despite the text telling us otherwise in the moment, or suggesting perhaps otherwise in the moment, she knew this was her father and that he was years late. She knew.

[Sara Brown]

Yeah.

[Alan Sisto]

Because she had a way of processing that and being like, I understand why my mom's treating him this way. He's late.

[Sara Brown]

Very, very late.

[Alan Sisto]

Very, very late. But she also didn't condemn her father's wrath, the, the lack of regret and the whole I have done like hands off, I'm not even, she does not exist, you're dead to me kind of treatment that he's done. You know, the burning the house down or you know, raising the, the house in, in, in our mental loss. I mean this is just, it's wild. Yeah.

[Sara Brown]

And this to me is quite distressing actually. The fact that she doesn't condemn either her parents. Not necessarily condemn, but think, think, hang on a minute. This is.

[Alan Sisto]

Right, this is not appropriate. Like I understand this part, but this was too far or anything like that. There's no, there's no judgment in her head that says there's a line that's been crossed.

[Sara Brown]

I know that I find this really quite horrifying.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah, yeah.

[Sara Brown]

That there is no empathetic response to either parent here.

[Alan Sisto]

Correct.

[Sara Brown]

Well, yeah, I get why she did that and I get why he did that and. And there doesn't seem to be any care about it on her part for either of the parents.

[Alan Sisto]

No. We'll get a hint of one thing later, but the rest is just very kind of calculated in a way. Yeah.

[Sara Brown]

And that's. It's sad.

[Alan Sisto]

Which is how she goes on to live her life, as we'll see it is.

[Sara Brown]

Which again is very sad.

[Alan Sisto]

Very sad. Yeah.

[Sara Brown]

The other thing that we get to hear is that she really, really, really didn't like the necessity of madness marriage. For it to be a duty or an obligation to her. That was not acceptable.

[Alan Sisto]

Not. Okay.

[Sara Brown]

Well, she's not had the best framing of marriage.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah. One could say. One could say she's not had any example to look up to and go, oh yeah, I can see how that would work. Yeah.

[Sara Brown]

Quite fancy doing that myself. You know, if you've had that sort of example given you, I could understand why you'd be rather against the whole idea.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah.

[Sara Brown]

And even in a non obligatory marriage, she equally disliked any constraint on her will. She will not be told what to do.

[Alan Sisto]

Correct. And that feels like a dad thing, doesn't it?

[Sara Brown]

Yes.

[Alan Sisto]

I mean, you know, she's. This is the. I understand why my dad was so angry because he wanted to be able to do these things and she wouldn't let him or she kept guilting him and things like this. This is troubling because she's going to end up reflecting that later on as we'll get to next week when we talk about her marriage interestingly enough to the son of Holotan. But not that we know that right away. Well, it seems obvious that much of her attitude toward marriage was shaped by horrendous as well as her attitude towards men. And we're going to see that in this next reading. This is. I'm so glad that Christopher took us into the further course of the narrative, because otherwise we never would have gotten this. This gem of a teaching. Sara.

[Sara Brown]

It is pretty astonishing.

[Alan Sisto]

It is.

[Sara Brown]

Men in Numenor are half elves, said Arendis, especially the high men. They are neither the one nor the other. The long life that they were granted deceives them, and they dally in the world, children in mind until age finds them. And then many only forsake play out of doors for play in their houses. They turn their play into great matters, and great matters into play. They would be craftsmen and loremasters and heroes all at once, and women to them are but fires on the hearth for others to tend until they are tired of play in the evening. All things were made for their service. Hills are for quarries, rivers to furnish water or to turn wheels, trees for boards, women for their bodies need, or, if fair, to adorn their table and hearth. And children to be teased when nothing else is to do but they would as soon play with their hounds, whelps to all. They are gracious and kind, merry as larks in the morning if the sun shines, for they are never wrathful if they can avoid it. It men should be gay. They hold generous as the rich, giving away what they do not need. Anger they show only when they become aware suddenly that there are other wills in the world beside their own. Then they will be as ruthless as the sea wind, if anything dare to withstand them. Thus it is ancalime, and we cannot alter it. For men, fashioned men, those heroes of old that they sing of, of their women we hear less, save that they wept when their men were slain. Numenor was to be a rest after war. But if they weary of rest and the plays of peace, soon they will go back to their great play. Man slaying and war. Thus it is, and we are set here among them. But we need not assent if we love Numenor also, let us enjoy it before they ruin it. We also are daughters of the great, and we have wills and courage of our own. Therefore, do not bend ancalime once. Bend a little, and they will bend you further until you are bowed down. Sink your roots into the rock and face the wind, though it blow away all your leaves.

[Alan Sisto]

Well, we have said before that there's a lot to unpack here, and there is a lot to unpack Here.

[Sara Brown]

Oh, my goodness. I would not call this the most wonderful advice a mother could give a daughter.

[Alan Sisto]

No. And yet there are some deep insights here, too.

[Sara Brown]

There are some deep insights.

[Alan Sisto]

There's so much of this where you're like, like. Yeah, you're absolutely right. Right. Until you said this, you know. But we'll get to that. For much of this story, Right, we have been left to wonder often the specifics of horrendous thoughts. I mean, don't get me wrong, she says plenty, and we can certainly infer a lot more. But far and away, this is the deepest and most complete insight into her mind in this entire story.

[Sara Brown]

It is.

[Alan Sisto]

I wish we had something like this for Eldarion. I mean, I think the closest we get is the tirade we just saw last episode when he told Minel Duor about how, oh, she loves her with Numenor as a backdrop and him as a tame dog, but that felt more spur of the moment anger, and all directed towards Arendus. Whereas her teaching is much broader, even though it's very clearly driven by what happened to her, by what Eldarion did. Really interesting. But, yeah, super important to read.

[Sara Brown]

It is. Because even though I said, ooh, this is not the most awesome advice, I'm not saying that in all ways, she's wrong.

[Alan Sisto]

No, in many ways she's absolutely right, as we'll see. Even. Even Tolkien says she's right.

[Sara Brown]

Yep. But before we dive into the reading, let's just look at the few lines that we skipped. And there we're reminded of what we'd inferred and pretty much assumed that Horrendous had spoken unceasingly against men.

[Alan Sisto]

Time for breakfast on Calumet, and I'm going to tell you once again how much men suck.

[Sara Brown]

Something like that?

[Alan Sisto]

Pretty much, yeah.

[Sara Brown]

I think this brings us back, doesn't it, to some of the conversations we've had about misogyny.

[Alan Sisto]

Yes.

[Sara Brown]

And what misogyny is and the difference between misogyny and misandry. I think we can all agree. I think we should all agree that any prejudice is a bad thing, a toxic thing.

[Alan Sisto]

Yes. Harmful. Deeply damaging, as Calumet bears the proof.

[Sara Brown]

Yeah, exactly. The way in which horrendous prejudice against men, which. Which could be termed misandry. This. It's damaging to her daughter because of the way that she is channeling her daughter into a very specific way of thinking about the world.

[Alan Sisto]

Correct.

[Sara Brown]

Without allowing her to make up her own mind.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah. In many ways, limiting not only her thoughts, but her. Even her experiences. So that she won't consider other thoughts.

[Sara Brown]

Right.

[Alan Sisto]

She literally doesn't know that she should think that there might be something else, could think differently.

[Sara Brown]

Yeah. There are different ways of. Of looking at the world, if you like. But I still hold to what I've said before, that there is an incredible difference between misogyny and misandry. That horrendous argument, if you like, about men is a reflection of her bitterness.

[Alan Sisto]

Right.

[Sara Brown]

Her anger towards Aldarion.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah.

[Sara Brown]

And the way in which her life has become what it is because of the actions of one man. But in that anger, in that prejudice against men, there is no power behind it. There is nothing she can do to change the system.

[Alan Sisto]

That's the distinction. Because the misogyny is something that, you know, not that Eldarion is opposed to all women, but he's very much opposed to horrendous. And if he so chooses, because he is a man and she is a woman, he lives in a culture where he can dominate that and take things away from her by force, which he does. She does not have that. Which he absolutely does. And she does not have that same power in return. Exactly. They're both equally prejudice, but only one has the power of the state behind him.

[Sara Brown]

Exactly.

[Alan Sisto]

And the other has no power at all.

[Sara Brown]

And that, of course, is a reflection of the patriarchal society that Numenor absolutely.

[Alan Sisto]

Is, which she talks about here in her teaching. And that's the thing. She's right in some of this, you know.

[Sara Brown]

She absolutely is right that men are the ones that are making the big decisions.

[Alan Sisto]

Yes.

[Sara Brown]

Men are the ones who are making society into what it is. Men are the ones setting the laws.

[Alan Sisto]

And they're the ones benefiting from all of it. Right.

[Sara Brown]

They absolutely are benefiting from all of this. Whereas women, all they can do is sort of shape their own space.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah.

[Sara Brown]

And work within their own space that they are. Are allowed to have. So, like we said at the start of this conversation, there is nothing good about prejudice. Prejudice is always going to create bitterness and anger. But there is an enormous difference between a prejudice that is a reflection of how someone has been treated and a prejudice that has the power of the state behind it that can really damage somebody, that can take things away, that can create a system and does create a system that makes all of women's lives in Numenor subject to what the men decide.

[Alan Sisto]

That's a very good point. And it's something that we as the reader need to keep in mind because we can and will rightfully blame Horrendous for The way she's teaching on Colony, these prejudices, but because these exist with no power behind them. That's why she gets to the conclusion of this is the way it is. And we are set here amongst them.

[Sara Brown]

Yes.

[Alan Sisto]

Eldarion would not have to write that to his son because he would be able to say, we can change this because they have the power to do that.

[Sara Brown]

And that.

[Alan Sisto]

That difference is significant.

[Sara Brown]

So, yeah. So what does Arendes have the power to do? The only thing she has the power to do is to affect the way an Calume feels. And it's unfortunate, isn't it? We can see this from like bullying in the classroom to whole government figures you know, punching down at weaker people. It's about what power you do have. You tend to wield.

[Alan Sisto]

Oh, yeah, of course. You have the power. You will use it, that is.

[Sara Brown]

And here, this is the only power Arrendus has. So this is where the damage comes from. And yes, it's terrible.

[Alan Sisto]

It is. It's absolutely terrible. Well, we are also given the fact that what we, what we read here, what you just read for us was, quote, a remarkable example that was preserved. Obviously it's very remarkable. We're remarking on it now. But it makes me ask the same thing we ask about the story in general. Why did Tolkien decide this example of horrendous teaching was the thing that should be preserved? I mean, again, that's the. In universe, you know, sort of narrative frame narrative for it. But what does this bring to the story or tell us perhaps about Tolkien's own thoughts?

[Sara Brown]

That's really interesting, actually.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah. Why did he decide, I want this like half true, half venomous series of statements to be the thing that we know about Arrendus more than anything else?

[Sara Brown]

I think that we again, need to take a step back and look at Tolkien and the way in which he writes female characters. From the very beginning of him being published with the Lord of the Rings, there were critics who declaimed that Tolkien was a misogynist. And that is another very reductive reading.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah, it really is.

[Sara Brown]

It really is. I think it's another way of being just wrong about Tolkien. And. And to me, what we can see is that he has a very nuanced view of his female characters. Some of the things that he writes are a little suck in the teeth, cringe kind of things, but other things he writes are just incredible. Some of his most powerful characters in the whole of Middle Earth are female or female presenting like Shelob, for example.

[Alan Sisto]

That's a very good Point. Yeah. You think about everything from Haleth to Eowyn. I mean, there's this. This line of incredibly powerful, incredibly courageous, strong, Melian Luthien. Oh, they're all there. Yeah. I was Galadriel. Yeah, yeah, they're everywhere. Iorith, even in her own way, is another example of a strong female character. Even if she is only on stage briefly and in some ways is sort of comic relief. She also has knowledge that nobody else.

[Sara Brown]

Has, and she's also not there to be something pretty on a man's arm. Tolkien knew how to write women who had agency.

[Alan Sisto]

Yes. That's a good way of putting agency. Yes.

[Sara Brown]

Arendes also has some agency even within her own story, just not quite as much.

[Alan Sisto]

But.

[Sara Brown]

Yeah, No, I think what Tolkien is doing here is. Is it's about this bitterness. It's about this falling apart of this part of what should have been a partnership. It's about the crumbling of a marriage because neither person was right for this marriage, and bad things have happened because of it. It is also the beginnings of a metaphor on what is going to fall apart within Numenor in the end, where you have one side of the faithful and the other side at the not faithful here. What I think Tolkien's doing with what Irendis is saying is he's showing us a woman who's been pushed to this point.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah.

[Sara Brown]

And this is now who she is. But he is not presenting this as a good thing, showing that she's not wrong in many ways, but he is showing her as a very damaged woman.

[Alan Sisto]

Very. And as somebody who will then damage the next Queen of Numenor.

[Sara Brown]

Yeah, yeah. So it just goes to show Tolkien was clever and subtle and nuanced.

[Alan Sisto]

Subtle and nuanced is a really good way of putting it. Yeah. Yeah. There's a lot here, for sure.

[Sara Brown]

Yeah, I think so. So we were just talking about how this was something that should be preserved. But that brings up the question, how was this preserved? What's the in universe explanation for why the teaching of an estranged queen was kept by whom and where and why?

[Alan Sisto]

That's a good question. An comes to mind that she perhaps, you know, had held on to some of her class notes, you know, from her. From her homeschooling from Mom.

[Sara Brown]

Dear Diary.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah, exactly. Here's what my mom taught me today. So that may be the in universe reason for why this gets saved. But, yeah, I think it is interesting that we don't get other examples of her teaching. Right. This is a remarkable example. Certainly a strong implication. This wasn't the only one.

[Sara Brown]

Yeah.

[Alan Sisto]

But also a very strong implication that they were all of the same tone. Very don't give in to the men, which. I get it, but let's dive into the teaching part.

[Sara Brown]

Right, yeah. Starting with the framing definition of the men or males of Numenor, that they, especially the high men for that reed line of Elros, are essentially half elves.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah.

[Sara Brown]

Well, yeah.

[Alan Sisto]

Aren't they?

[Sara Brown]

Yeah. She's not wrong. I mean, remember that Eldarion's ancestor, his great grandfather's grandfather, was, of course, Elros, the twin brother of Elrond, descended from.

[Alan Sisto]

Earendil and Elwing, Elrond, also known as half Elven. Yeah.

[Sara Brown]

Yes. So which is a bit of a giveaway. Right?

[Alan Sisto]

Right. Yeah.

[Sara Brown]

But rather than taking the best of both worlds, Horrendous argues that they're neither one or the other.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah.

[Sara Brown]

And here she starts to get specific.

[Alan Sisto]

Now, before we do, and I definitely want to get to that, I want to jump to an essay in the Nature of Middle Earth that we haven't gone to before. We've looked a lot at the lives of Numenoreans several times. There's a chapter called the Aging of Numenoreans that's primarily a math chapter, but there is a line here that's super important. I just actually came into this last night as I was reading that chapter in preparation for today. Tolkien directly speaks to this moment. He writes, as Arrendus said later, they became a kind of imitation elves, and their men had so much in their heads and desire of doing that they ever felt the pressure of time and so seldom rested or rejoiced in the present.

[Sara Brown]

Ooh, that rings bells.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah. Doesn't it? That speaks to this moment, but it speaks so much to that moment of where Arrindus is saying, stop trying to live in the future. Live in this moment. Live in your now. How do we risk losing our nows? And it's just Tolkien's like, she was right. I didn't put those words in her mouth for you to say she was wrong. I put them there so that she would see she was right. It's fantastic.

[Sara Brown]

Yes. And it's so fascinating because the Numenoreans and the Gondorians of the Third Age, they kind of bookend this because. Because Arrendus is pointing to. And as is Tolkien pointing to Numenoreans like Aldarion having that long lifespan being of the line of Elros, and therefore they're always looking to what's going to happen. I've got so much time that I Can, you know, look forward, look forward. And they forget to live in the now. Whereas those of us who are of shorter time span, we really need to be able to live in the present. Yeah. You know, smell the coffee, etc.

[Alan Sisto]

Got 25 or 30 more years left on this Earth. I need to enjoy the ones I'm in now. I can't be thinking of what's going to happen 150 years from now. Like a Numenorean.

[Sara Brown]

Exactly, exactly. And then when you get to the Gondorians of the Third Age, they're so busy looking backwards at what once was that they're not living in the present.

[Alan Sisto]

The glory of Numenor. And, you know, you remember Faramir telling Frodo and Sam, and they counted the line of their. Their. Their ancestors more important than the line of their descendants. Like their dead grandparents are more important than their living children.

[Sara Brown]

And so you get them bookending the same problem you've got in the time of Aeldarion. They're too busy looking forward. Of course. By the time you get to Pharazon, they're too busy going, oh, we don't have enough time.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Oh, no, 400 years is not enough.

[Sara Brown]

Yeah, right. By the time you get to the Gondorians of the Third Age, they're looking backwards. So they never live in the now.

[Alan Sisto]

Now. Yeah.

[Sara Brown]

So Tolkien's not wrong. Erendis is not wrong.

[Alan Sisto]

No. And I. I love the way Tolkien put this. It wasn't that they, as. As in all of the people of do. He is speaking specifically about the males, that they have this tendency, as we'll get to. There's some more. More on that, actually, as we continue.

[Sara Brown]

In other words, their extended lifespan deceives them. Let's remember, Erendus is long, too.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah.

[Sara Brown]

But nowhere near as long as the lives of the men of the line of Elros, the high men.

[Alan Sisto]

Exactly. And that's who she's talking about. Interestingly. What she says, though, is that because of this sort of deception of their lifespan, they remain like children until they're old. And even then they just change where they play. This next bit is super insightful, and it's something I want you to really listen to, folks, and kind of hold in your heads here. This is important because of what comes up later. They turn their play into great matters and great matters into play. What she's saying is that they take seriously the wrong things, the less important, the less prioritized things. Instead of taking the truly important things like family seriously, they turn their hobbies and passions like, I don't know, sailing into important things.

[Sara Brown]

Oh, that's very pointed. And yes, she is speaking about Aeldarion here.

[Alan Sisto]

She is.

[Sara Brown]

So how applicable is this to the men of Numenor in general? Is Aeldarion an outlier in this sort of thing, or was it the wise Meneldr who was the exception?

[Alan Sisto]

That is a good question. I mean, I know that we've got some quotes coming up from the Nature of Middle Earth that give us some more insight. I tend to feel like, in a way, Meneldor is the exception. He's kingly, he is wise, he is humble, he is. Is described very much as a good king. Eldarion's not described as a bad king. Nobody says, oh, the Shadow began here. We're reading that and saying that it is. But it's nowhere written that he's some sort of a terrible king. I think he's a fairly representative example of ordinary men of Numenor. Maybe a little more selfish than most, because we do know that most marriages don't fall apart. They are steadfast lovers. As we've read, and I think we'll also mention here again today day, there are a lot of really good things that the men of Numenor do. But I do think this tendency to. Well, to want to be heroes is a thing. It really does trick them, doesn't it? Trips them up.

[Sara Brown]

I think specifically the ones from the line of Elros.

[Alan Sisto]

Yes.

[Sara Brown]

The high men are particularly prone to that.

[Alan Sisto]

I should be really clear. We are only talking about them because that's who she's talking about. About.

[Sara Brown]

That's who she is talking about. Yes. And Manelda, of course, he did have a great passion.

[Alan Sisto]

He did, yeah. The astronomy that he loved stars.

[Sara Brown]

But when he became king, he left his hobby as a hobby and focused on being a king.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah.

[Sara Brown]

Whereas you look at Tar Al Darion, he does exactly the opposite of that.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah, exactly. It just makes it worse.

[Sara Brown]

Yeah. So what she's talking about is that these men, they wanted all.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah.

[Sara Brown]

And this is definitely a consequence of the extended lifespan. They want to be craftsmen, lore masters and heroes, she says. Now, Tolkien actually lends a significant amount of credence to this claim of hers. Again, in the Nature of Middle Earth, the Lives of the Numenoreans, we learn that the mental capacity for Numenoreans was greater and developed quicker than that of ordinary men, and it was dominant.

[Alan Sisto]

More than that, though, we are told, the results of this, combined with the long period of vigor that they had. Right. Their extended Lifespan. This left them with little sense of urgency in the first half of their lives, which led them very often becoming engrossed in lore and crafts and various intellectual or artistic pursuits to a far greater degree than normal. But it's the last sentence in Tolkien's paragraph that is a killer. This was particularly the case with men. Ouch.

[Sara Brown]

Ouch.

[Alan Sisto]

I hear it. I mean, I. I want to do everything right, and I don't know how much of that is, is connected to that, but certainly the high men of numenor with their 400 year long lifespan combined with that, you know, it's not like they were at say 100, like a 25 year old man. At 100, they were like a. I'm doing the math here, like a 36 year old man. Right. Because you take the minus 20, take that balance, divide by five and then add the 20 back in. And because they could be so active and in the prime of their life for so long, they felt the need to just achieve everything. Why not? But that's a trap.

[Sara Brown]

It is a trap. And because of the different ways that the men of Numenor would be raised from childhood to how the women would be raised from childhood, different expectations, different freedoms, etc. Etc. It's only open to the men to be able to do all of that.

[Alan Sisto]

Yes. Yeah. And I wonder if that changed, by the way, after the law was changed to allow a queen to take the throne. I wonder if that also maybe opened up more opportunities for women in Numenorean society. We'll have to speculate on that. Maybe in a P5. We'll see. I mean, Calumet is no friend to women, as her granddaughters will tell you. I don't think so.

[Sara Brown]

Yeah.

[Alan Sisto]

Now this approach by the men meant that they viewed the women differently. Like you said, the men were raised with one set of expectations, one set of guidelines and things that they could do in the women with others. So Horrendous argues in this teaching that women are very low priority. They are simply fires for others to tend until the end of day.

[Sara Brown]

Ouch.

[Alan Sisto]

I know, that does sting.

[Sara Brown]

That really does. But if Tolkien lent credence to her point that the men want it all, he shoots down this argument a little in a footnote to this same section in the Nature of Middle Earth. Now, we looked at this several episodes ago, but it's really relevant here. It says they were steadfast lovers, and any breaches in the bonds and affection between parents or between them and their children were thought great evils and sorrows.

[Alan Sisto]

In other words, the family bonds were critical. They were of high societal value. People who violated them were certainly looked down upon as Eldarion was. And all that to say is Eldarion's behavior was terrible, but it was not the norm in Numenorean society. It was not typical for the men to treat their women with such disdain.

[Sara Brown]

Yes.

[Alan Sisto]

So this is where Arrindus takes a truth but then applies it to her life and stretches it because of what Eldarion did.

[Sara Brown]

Yes. I would point out that it is. It's a stretch. But Aldarion may be an outlier in that his behavior is not the normal norm.

[Alan Sisto]

Right.

[Sara Brown]

But it comes from a root of where the men have more freedom and more ability to do things.

[Alan Sisto]

Oh, 100 true. Yeah.

[Sara Brown]

Yeah. So yes, she is. She is right to talk about how men have more opportunities than the women, but she is applying all of her own experiences as if it is universal.

[Alan Sisto]

Exactly. She. She's saying all women are like me. They are fires for others to tend until the end of the day.

[Sara Brown]

And all men are like Aldarion. Selfish, self centered, uncaring, calm.

[Alan Sisto]

And that's where she takes things too far. And that's the really interesting thing about this, is there are so many nuggets of truth. Literally Tolkien saying Arrendus was right. But then there's so much where she just takes it too far.

[Sara Brown]

Yeah. I mean, hashtag notallmen, right?

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah. But you know, nobody. Wow. I want to be careful with that one. I'm not, I'm not saying anything.

[Sara Brown]

I'm not going to touch on that one.

[Alan Sisto]

No, no, no.

[Sara Brown]

But to be serious about that. Yeah. She is taking her own very specific experiences and then generalizing them to an calumet to make it seem as if, yes, this is the experience of all women. It is the behavior of all men.

[Alan Sisto]

Correct. This is what you will experience and therefore this is how you need to respond.

[Sara Brown]

Want. Right. You must guard against all men because all men behave like this and all women suffer in this way.

[Alan Sisto]

Speaking of all men, that's when we get into the more general part of the argument about the misogyny that she sees. Right?

[Sara Brown]

Yes. The misogyny that's built into Numenorean society, that everything was made for men and not for women. And some of the things that she says here are very pertinent to her own experiences. But possibly, these possibly might be things that you could generalize. Natural resources like hills, rivers and forests are simply supplies of product used to build things or provide power. I have a Feeling she's not that wrong.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah, that's the thing is, I think she's right, but she's also drawing this from her own experience of her love for the trees, her love for the island, as it is not the island that provides the resources to do these greater things.

[Sara Brown]

Yes.

[Alan Sisto]

And I don't know if Tolkien. Tolkien's drawing this from like a quote unquote traditionally masculine view of the world and a traditionally feminine view of the world. I do tend to think there's a little bit of that from his perspective. You know, this is. I'm not saying Tolkien's a man of his time. I'm saying. I am saying though that there would be an understanding of what he sees as a masculine view of the world and a feminine view of the world. Not that he agrees that either is correct, because look at his love for trees. But he does know that there's a tendency on the part of men to exploit and take these resources, you know. Yes, he's right for that in the primary world and he's right for that here in Numenor. Therefore Arrhendus is saying something here that's probably accurate.

[Sara Brown]

Yeah.

[Alan Sisto]

Maybe not as cold hearted as Eldarion who's like, oh, that's a nice tree. I think we should cut it down. And the elves are like, what? We've never cut these trees. Are you kidding me?

[Sara Brown]

I mean, yeah, again, Eldarion's the outlier, isn't he?

[Alan Sisto]

Exactly, he's the outlier. But then she goes on and saying that, you know, the, the. So the natural resources exist for their, their needs. Well, even the women exist for their body's need. I don't think that Tolkien could get much more explicit here. No, I'm just be really frank. Horrendous is arguing, rightly or wrongly, that the purpose of women in Numenorean society, and we don't know enough to say if this is accurate, is to provide for the physical needs of men. Sure, you can make an argument that includes cooking meals, but clearly what she's implying here is the sexual aspect of the marriage, that women's bodies are to be simply used by the men.

[Sara Brown]

Exactly. That is definitely the point that she is making, and therefore Tolkien is making the point through her that this is how she feels.

[Alan Sisto]

Whether that's reflective of Numenorean society or.

[Sara Brown]

Not, it's reflective of Numenorean society.

[Alan Sisto]

I come back to the steadfast lovers bit and just feel like there's. There's that statement that really strongly speaks to the way they approach marriage, the way the Eldar do.

[Sara Brown]

Yes. That this is a permanent.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah.

[Sara Brown]

All time kind of thing. Yeah. And again, it comes down to how this was horrendous experience and therefore she is making it a generalized experience that this is what all men are like. And let's face it, that abused or damaged women, they are going to have a very natural kind of caution about how men treat women.

[Alan Sisto]

Correct.

[Sara Brown]

But it's one thing to caution your daughter about being careful.

[Alan Sisto]

Right. Look for red flags, be wise, ask questions.

[Sara Brown]

And another one to say, this is what all men do. And therefore you must respond in this one way. This is why it's damaging. Correct. This is why it's. It is difficult to defend Arrendis in everything that she does. And I have not attempted to do.

[Alan Sisto]

That wisely because I would definitely be taking you to task for that.

[Sara Brown]

Yeah. But I wouldn't do that because she damages her daughter deeply.

[Alan Sisto]

Like you said, generalizing from her specific experience is harmful.

[Sara Brown]

It is. Yeah. She goes on to say other things. And again, this is interesting to me because this is from a Rendus experience. It is from what she has learned about. About men from her life. But we could also see this playing out in the real world. Some of the things that she says. For example, she says if they're at least pretty, then the women can also be decorative.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah. To. There's definitely. No, that's not. That's not wrong.

[Sara Brown]

But then she goes on to say something that is almost like a dig about Eldarion as a father.

[Alan Sisto]

Yes. I thought the same thing. It is very much a dig.

[Sara Brown]

She says children even are just a plaything when there's nothing else to play with. Like puppies. So your dad is a deadbeat.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah. Yeah. This is throwing Eldarion under the bus as a father. Yeah.

[Sara Brown]

Yes. If you weren't interesting enough for him in the moment, then he wouldn't have anything to do with you.

[Alan Sisto]

You were the lowest priority. You thought I was low priority. You were even lower.

[Sara Brown]

Yeah. This is rough. Aldarion is not a great father.

[Alan Sisto]

No, he's not. We're going to get to that moment again here that made me angry before in the next reading. But. Yeah, but this thing about the dogs is interesting. It brings me back to something that Aldarion mentioned. Right. We talked about this where he pictured himself as a tame dog lazing by the hearth. Right. She just wants numenor as a backdrop. I wanted to do a sidebar about it at the time. And I know we don't really have the time here, but I'm doing it anyway. Completely let it go at the time. But the hounds whelps are mentioned here. So I wanted to talk very briefly about this.

[Sara Brown]

Yeah. In that same chapter, Lives of the Numenoreans, we read that they could train their horses to hear their calls from a distance. And that where there was great love between them, people, people allegedly, per ancient tale, could summon them at need by their thought alone.

[Alan Sisto]

I love that. I mean, it kind of brings into mind the whole Gandalf shadow facts thing in the Lord of the Rings.

[Sara Brown]

It does.

[Alan Sisto]

But dogs. Well, in the next paragraph we read. So it was also with their dogs, which is really cool.

[Sara Brown]

Like, it is cool.

[Alan Sisto]

Who's a good dog? And then your dog shows up. Me. Where's my treat? We are told the Numenoreans kept dogs out of tradition. Tradition that aside from sheepdogs, there really weren't any working dogs. And then we read the part that's relevant to both Irendis's advice to her daughter and to Eldarion's claim that she viewed him as a tame dog. And it reads, dogs were seldom seen in the towns, in the farms, they were never chained or tethered, but neither did they dwell in the houses of men, though they were often welcomed to the central solma or hall where the chief fire burns learned especially the old faithful dogs of long service or at times the puppies. So that definitely brings in this whole the hounds whelps. It brings in the dog lazing by the hearth. I mean, it's really cool how he ties all this together, isn't it?

[Sara Brown]

It's fantastic. But just like with the whole I want to be a hero bit, we read that it was men rather than women who had a liking to keep dogs as friends. Women love more the wild or unowned birds and beasts.

[Alan Sisto]

That's interesting. So really, Eldarion saying that she'd picture me as a dog to lays by the hearth. She would never picture that. That's not the kind of animal that she would associate with. She would rather associate with the unowned birds and beasts.

[Sara Brown]

That's probably a reason why she was gifted two birds for her wedding.

[Alan Sisto]

By the way, did you know what women's favorite favorite animals were?

[Sara Brown]

No. Do go on.

[Alan Sisto]

Squirrels. They love the wild squirrels.

[Sara Brown]

Good.

[Alan Sisto]

I love it.

[Sara Brown]

Rats with fluffy tails.

[Alan Sisto]

I know. Anyway, going back to the text, but I just thought that was so interesting because it brings in the hounds whelps and the. The vision that Eldarion was casting about.

[Sara Brown]

That is a great Circle to close.

[Alan Sisto]

So neat. But we get a description of the character of men as Orenda sees them. Yes, they are gracious, they are kind, they are merry, they are happy, they are generous. All great things. Things. But only when they are not opposed.

[Sara Brown]

Oh, that really rings with Aldarion, because we've learned about how he's generous and ready to laugh, ready to mirth.

[Alan Sisto]

I love that.

[Sara Brown]

Except when somebody stands up to him.

[Alan Sisto]

Even if it's his dad, the king.

[Sara Brown]

Exactly. Because the moment they encounter other wills. Oh, wow. This brings me back to Eldarion's charge of insolence.

[Alan Sisto]

How dare she?

[Sara Brown]

Yeah, yeah, yes, exactly. So, I mean, we were talking about misogyny and misandry and all that sort of thing here. Aldarion's comment about women's insolence. It's absolutely misogyny.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah. That is 1,000%, you know, and. And because that's what that's referencing is she doesn't have the right to stand up to me. She doesn't have that. That authority.

[Sara Brown]

She.

[Alan Sisto]

How dare she? Right.

[Sara Brown]

How dare she speak to.

[Alan Sisto]

That's from a position of power. Yeah, yeah, That's. It's really deeply troubling.

[Sara Brown]

I think. So.

[Alan Sisto]

And then this is where we get horrendous sort of conclusion, right? This is where she simply says, this is the way things are. This isn't anything that can be changed. And she should know, because she tried to change a little bit about Eldarion. She says, though, that this is this way because men are the ones who built and shaped this place. So this becomes. Comes back to that building of a society that favors the men, that gives men the power that, you know, lowers women in terms of their freedom of choice, in terms of their authority. And that's what she's trying to say to Ankala May, you are growing up in this world where you have less power, where you have less freedom, and so you need to be aware of it. And then I'm going to give you some advice as to how to handle it.

[Sara Brown]

Yeah, yeah. Because in so many of these points, she actually. She isn't wrong.

[Alan Sisto]

No, I know. That's the thing. She's got just some grains of truth here that are so significant and so important.

[Sara Brown]

Yeah. And she points out something next that we've often observed. She says of their women, we hear less.

[Alan Sisto]

Yes, we do.

[Sara Brown]

Save that they wept when their men were slain. Now, this is true in Tolkien, and it's apparently true, or at least perceived to be true by Arendus here in Numenor. You know, What? It's not wrong about the secondary World because the history books are full of the deeds of men.

[Alan Sisto]

Of course.

[Sara Brown]

Yes.

[Alan Sisto]

Because it's focused on the action, the. Often the military marshal action, the fighting.

[Sara Brown]

Yes.

[Alan Sisto]

And not on the logistical support and home fires that enabled the men to do that. You know, I mean, I think of how much time Tolkien poured into giving us the legendarium, and I'm so grateful for it. I have to also be very grateful to Edith for that. That because her making the meals, taking care of the kids, doing the laundry, keeping a house clean are all the things that gave Tolkien the time to do these things that we're now talking about.

[Sara Brown]

I believe we discussed that in one of our questions after night.

[Alan Sisto]

Oh, yeah, that's where. Talking about that is where it came up. Yeah. And it's one of these things where. Yeah, you.

[Sara Brown]

It's right. The women, by doing all of that, provided the home life and therefore the space for. For men to have the time for the hobbies, the extras, the passions.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah.

[Sara Brown]

Yes, indeed.

[Alan Sisto]

Heck, it's even true here. It's even true for me. I would not have the time to pour into this podcast where, you know, if. If I had to do more on the home front, my wife taking care of our. She doesn't exclusively take care of our kids or anything like that, but, you know, if it weren't for the fact that she pours that time and effort into it, I wouldn't have the time to do the show the way I do. And we just all have to recognize that. And I think that, you know, Orendus is saying that's the case here now. She takes it to an extreme, I think. Right.

[Sara Brown]

And that's always the problem, isn't it? So many of the things that Arendus says, particularly in this passage that we were reading, they have that grain of truth. Some of those things really resonate in our secondary world here in 2025. But she takes it too far. She takes it to the extreme. She generalizes so much, and in the end, all it does is it passes on the damage to her daughter.

[Alan Sisto]

Exactly, exactly. She is now making Ancademy as much a victim as she was. But that's not just. That's not equitable. That isn't fair to uncallum.

[Sara Brown]

No, it isn't.

[Alan Sisto]

Speaking of grains of truth, she goes back to the original purpose of numenor. And it's something that we mentioned when Meneldur reacted to the letter from Gil Galad. Right. He said, here we were to put away hatred and war for war was ended. Well, Lorendis knows this, right? She's raised in this culture. She knows this island was to be arrest after war.

[Sara Brown]

Yeah. But as she points out, what happens when the folks tired of war have arrested, what then? Well, they will return to what she says is their great place. War and the killing of other men.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah. You think mansplaining is bad? Man slaying is probably a little worse.

[Sara Brown]

Possibly.

[Alan Sisto]

Remember earlier in this letter, though, and I told you to remember this, they turned their play into great matters and their great matters into play. She's very much bringing us back to that line. This is their great play, war.

[Sara Brown]

Yes, yes. It's the big game, the great game, isn't it? In which we get to be heroes. The heroes that we want to be.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah. Because they've already done their other things. They've already been the lore masters. They've already been the craftsmen, you know, maybe younger in their thing. But now that they're, you know, now they can be an admiral or a captain and they can lead into battle and accomplish these things.

[Sara Brown]

How do you get to be a hero if we're just at peace and, you know, tending the sheep?

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah.

[Sara Brown]

How do you get to be a hero then?

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah. What great foe can you slay when we are not at war? Oh, well, then I guess we need to be at war.

[Sara Brown]

Which is a terrible argument for being at war. But yeah. Now again, she says this simply is how it is. And we are here with these men, but. And here we reach the what to do part of her letter. We need not ascent.

[Alan Sisto]

That's right.

[Sara Brown]

Again, she's not wrong. And then she just takes it.

[Alan Sisto]

Exactly.

[Sara Brown]

That's the thing.

[Alan Sisto]

It's like, no, we. We need not ascent. That's fair. You can end the letter right there. Yeah.

[Sara Brown]

Yes, we can enjoy this place before they destroy it. We have wills and courage just like the men.

[Alan Sisto]

Sincerely, Mom.

[Sara Brown]

Now is where it all that's needs.

[Alan Sisto]

To be signed off.

[Sara Brown]

If only there'd been a, you know, an ending there.

[Alan Sisto]

But nope, nope, she says to her daughter, do not bend. Do not bend at all. Because if you bend even the slightest bits, you're going to get bent until you're. You're bowed down. Now, this is again taking the specific things that happened to her, generalizing them and saying, the only way you can fight this is to do this. This goes back to that all or nothing approach that we saw in her early on and that even Nuneth warned her about. About. Yuneth was not full of good advice, but she's at least not completely blind. She knows her daughter well that you. It is all or nothing. And it is all. That's what she's saying here. If you bend, it's all over. And. And yet I think of. Of all the examples we've read in stories throughout, you know, both myths and legends as well as just, you know, like wisdom, proverbs. The trees that bend are the ones that don't get broken.

[Sara Brown]

Yes.

[Alan Sisto]

You know, the ones that refuse to bend, that are stiff. Those are the ones that eventually snap when the winds get too great.

[Sara Brown]

Yes. And the unfortunate thing is that in the end, because Ancalame is taught never to bend, always to remain absolutely rigid in her thinking. This is going to lead to an awful rest of her life.

[Alan Sisto]

Oh, it really will. We'll see that next week. Yeah.

[Sara Brown]

Horrendous. You could argue she did bend quite a few times. But I think she blames that. The fact that she gave in to Eldarion.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah. But he was going to do.

[Sara Brown]

But I'm not sure that it should have stopped anything.

[Alan Sisto]

All it would have done is maybe kept them from getting married. That's the only thing it would never have. He never was going to. If she stood up to him more, he was not going to change his mind. He would just fight more. No, he was always going to do what he wanted to do. Instead. She says to uncle man, this is the advice that she's like, what? She doesn't say, don't put your roots in the soil, but she does. She says, put your roots into the rock. Not actually the best place for tree to put its roots.

[Sara Brown]

Not really.

[Alan Sisto]

But then don't avoid the wind. Face it. That actually. Okay, I can like that. I like that. Right. You know, acknowledge, recognize the challenges you're going to face. Don't turn your back on them, but regardless of consequences. Right. That. That's. I struggle with that part. Right. Though. It blow away all your leaves. Like really?

[Sara Brown]

Yeah. That is not.

[Alan Sisto]

Because her leaves are going to definitely get blown away in terms of like, what her marriage is going to look like.

[Sara Brown]

Torture that metaphor even further. She'll be left with no leaves at all.

[Alan Sisto]

Stripped to the. To the. To the branches. Absolutely.

[Sara Brown]

Yeah. But I want to return to the beginning of that metaphor. To put your roots not in the soil, but into the rock. Here's the problem with that. What is it that nourishes the tree and allows it to grow and remain living? It isn't rock. It's the soil. The tree must have its roots in soil so that it can gain the nutrition from the land, from the ground. If you put your roots into rock, there's nothing there. There's nothing to help you be nurtured. You won't grow. You won't survive. So it's terrible advice, awful advice.

[Alan Sisto]

And that's the thing horrendous here. Just again, it's here's some truths and then here's some awful conclusions and then generally bad advice. And it's advice that we'll see echoes through the generations next week. When we get to that.

[Sara Brown]

We told you about the amazing PPP community after our earlier broken break. If you're a part of that community and you want to enjoy something even more special, come and join the Fellowship of the podcast on Patreon. You get to be in the best discord community around. No kidding. They really are. One that includes host hangouts and even live episode recordings.

[Alan Sisto]

And then your support there is what enables me to work full time doing all of these shows. The ppp Today's Tolkien Times, Rings of Power wrap up the PPP plays. So thank you for that and please consider doing that to help me be able to do that. This more and better. When you join, you also get episode postscripts, ad free episodes, free merch, and more.

[Sara Brown]

Now you can join the Questions After Nightfall episodes or even appear as a guest in the north wing. Go to patreon.com prancingponypod to show your support and join the Fellowship of the Podcast.

[Alan Sisto]

And don't forget to rate and review on Apple Podcasts and Spotify. And please recommend us to your friends. You can even do that directly on Spotify. Now just share the show with your friends.

[Sara Brown]

Okay, well, we have an opportunity now to learn a little bit more about Ancalame as she grows up.

[Alan Sisto]

Yep, we'll wrap us up for today with this reading. Moreover, and more potently, Arrendis had made Ancalame accustomed to the society of women the cool, quiet, gentle life of a Meria without interruptions or alarms. Boys like Ebal shouted. Men rode up, blowing horns at strange hours, and were fed with great noise. They begot children and left them in the care of women when they were troublesome. And though childbirth had less of ills and peril, Numenor was not an earthly paradise, and the weariness of labor or of all making was not taken away. Ancalame, like her father, was resolute in pursuing her policies, and like him, she was obstinate, taking the opposite course to any that was counseled. She had something of her mother's coldness and sense of personal injury. And deep in her heart, almost, but not quite forgotten, was the firmness with which Aldarien had unclasped her hand and set her down when he was in haste to be gone. She loved dearly the downlands of her home, and never, as she said in her life could she sleep at peace, far from the sound of sheep. But she did not refuse the airship and determined that when her day came, came she would be a powerful ruling queen, and when so to live where and how she pleased. It seems that for some 18 years after Eldarion became king, he was often gone from Numenor. And during that time Ancalome passed her days both in Emmeria and in Armenelas. For Queen Almarien took a great liking to her and indulged her as she had indulged Aldarian in his youth. In Enrilos she was treated with deference by all, and not least by Eldarion. And though at first she was ill at ease, missing the wide airs of her home, in time she ceased to be abashed and became aware that men looked with wonder upon her beauty now come to its full. As she grew older, she became ever more willful, and she found irksome the company of Orenda, who behaved like a widow and would not be queen. But she continued to return to Emeriae, both as a retreat from Armenelas and because she desired thus to vex Eldarion. She was clever and malicious and saw promise of sport as the prize for which her mother and her father did battle.

[Sara Brown]

Ouch. Yeah, yikes.

[Alan Sisto]

So we'll get there.

[Sara Brown]

Not only does Orendis pass on to anime the the damaging feelings about men that she has, she does so in part by keeping her isolated in Ameria, with only women as company. And we talked about that a few episodes ago.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah, that was damaging in and of itself. But let's be honest, it's also a kind of a nice life. It's quiet. You could do that, though, when you're a noble woman, like horrendous. Right. You have the resources, the women wealth to hire others to do the actual work. And some of that actual work is done by those boys and men who on Calume sees as loud and obnoxious. And therefore that's how she sees men in general. Again, taking that individual experience and generalizing it, which is a tendency we all have, let's be honest.

[Sara Brown]

Absolutely. But again, we also look for ways in which we can confirm our beliefs.

[Alan Sisto]

Right. We have to fight that. And we do fight that we consciously choose.

[Sara Brown]

But it's a lot easier with that sort of logical fallacy to see things that we think prove the way that we already feel.

[Alan Sisto]

Confirmation bias.

[Sara Brown]

Exactly. So she also witnesses these families have children and those kids are left in the care of mum. And we get a mention of the fact that though childbirth was not as high risk as it might be for humans in Middle Earth, it's still not exactly easy and there is a cost to labor.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah. And for more on this, we go back to the nature of Middle Earth and that really useful footnote to remind you that in the begetting and still more in the bearing of a child, far more of their vigor, both of body and mind was expended for the longevity of the later generations was though a grace or gift transmitted mediately by the parents. A rest both of body and will was therefore needed, especially by the women.

[Sara Brown]

Oh, do you know, it really reminds me of Ferial when we read things like that.

[Alan Sisto]

Oh yes. Just pouring all of her strength into Fayel birth, I mean. Oh, yeah.

[Sara Brown]

So we know that in many ways the Numenoreans were like the elves and given many of their gifts. And one of the things about the elves that we're told in nature, Middle Earth is that childbirth was totally free of pain. Now, we don't know if that's.

[Alan Sisto]

That must be nice, wouldn't it?

[Sara Brown]

Yes. Even if that is the case, it's clear that energy was spent and it was tiring. A rest of body and will waste required.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah, so that's really important. Right. The. The whole childbirth thing. She would have seen probably more of those kids being left in care of mom because so many of those men like the neighbors that, you know, down the way, that was that we saw the party for Ulbar's wife. Umar was, you know, a sailor and was off for years at a time. So. Yeah. So now we move more into another list of economist personality traits. But this time it's more about how she's like and unlike each of her parents, isn't it?

[Sara Brown]

Yes. She's determined and stubborn, just like her dad. Not only refusing counsel, but taking the opposite way to whatever advice she's given.

[Alan Sisto]

Look, I get being stubborn and being like, I know I'm right. I'm not going to change my mind. But to be like to where reverse psychology could be worked on you because you're just absolutely bound and determined to do the opposite of what anybody suggests is too.

[Sara Brown]

It does feel very teenager to me, doesn't it?

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah, that's kind of what I'm getting here. But from her mom, we get both the cold and what's described in the text as a sense of personal injury. This feels like the holding of an eternal grudge.

[Sara Brown]

Yes.

[Alan Sisto]

Or almost the victim mentality. Though in fairness, that's also how Eldarion sees himself. He's always the victim. It's not ever his fault. But I think. Is that a fair way of reading that sense of personal injury as far as of the holding a grudge?

[Sara Brown]

Oh, yes, yes, absolutely. And you know, you're describing her as having a victim mentality, but she is a victim.

[Alan Sisto]

She's the victim. Well, yeah, I mean, I want to be clear.

[Sara Brown]

Yes.

[Alan Sisto]

You know, that's not an unjustified mentality.

[Sara Brown]

No, she's perfect.

[Alan Sisto]

Aldaran's is.

[Sara Brown]

Yes.

[Alan Sisto]

He's not the victim here, but when.

[Sara Brown]

It comes to her sense of personal injury, this is.

[Alan Sisto]

It's a real injury.

[Sara Brown]

Yeah, this is. We were talking earlier about how she approved her father's attitude towards her mother. But that doesn't mean to say that what came from her father towards her wasn't deeply felt.

[Alan Sisto]

Well, that's the thing. Right. I mean, the, the sense of personal injury, she gets that from her mom, but she also has a sense of her own personal injury. And that's where we get to the part that honestly made me start to tear up what I was reading. Because here's this woman and we're hearing that she has one clear memory of her youth and it's this faint recollection of the way her father just took her hand and set her down when she was giving him a hug goodbye. Yeah.

[Sara Brown]

That distressed you when we were reading the story all the way back then.

[Alan Sisto]

It really did. I mean, let's go back to that exact line so you can remember what he did. First of all, she was close on four years old. So she's a three year old little girl.

[Sara Brown]

Three year old baby. She's a baby.

[Alan Sisto]

She's a baby. He lifted up on Calumet and kissed her. But though she clung to him, he set her down quickly and rode off.

[Sara Brown]

I hated him in that moment.

[Alan Sisto]

I. Yeah, that's. There's nothing worse than that. It. There's a lot of worse, but I mean, there's a lot of bad, but there's nothing worse like that reached me at my core. You know, I mean, I've. My daughter's 11 now, but I cannot imagine just dismissing her and putting, you know, taking her hand off. Off and putting her down. Yeah, he's like, I Said at the time. It's not like if he leaves 10 minutes from now, he's gonna be late and miss the plane.

[Sara Brown]

Right. It's just. It was inconvenient for him. He didn't want to feel the feel in that moment.

[Alan Sisto]

No. Because he was being irked by Erendis and her tears. It still makes me so mad, and it makes me so deeply sad because you can feel the pain in Enkalame's heart. Heart. That as a young woman, she's remembering this. This is the memory she has of her childhood.

[Sara Brown]

I mean, that sucks. My daughter's 24, and I wouldn't do this.

[Alan Sisto]

No. You've got an extra 30 seconds. You got an extra two minutes. You got an extra 20 minutes. Give her a freaking hug, man.

[Sara Brown]

You know, as a parent, my policy has always been I'm not the first one who lets go in the hug.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah, yeah, Always.

[Sara Brown]

When my daughter's done and she stops, then she can let go of the hug. But I'm not letting go first because.

[Alan Sisto]

Darn right, it's not what you do.

[Sara Brown]

You're a parent. You hold on. And like I said, my daughter's now 24, and the thought of behaving like this is alien to me. But when she was a baby, 3 years old.

[Alan Sisto]

How dare you treat your daughter this way.

[Sara Brown]

Yeah. It really does give me the ughs.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah. I mean, as I'm reading it, I'm reading it through her eyes.

[Sara Brown]

Yeah.

[Alan Sisto]

And the firmness with which dad. Dad had unclasped her hand and set her down when he was in a hurry.

[Sara Brown]

Yeah.

[Alan Sisto]

You know?

[Sara Brown]

Yeah.

[Alan Sisto]

I think that part hits more in the sorrow realm. But, yeah. When I read the line from back then about lifting her up and then setting her down quickly, I just get mad like, what a jerk.

[Sara Brown]

Yeah.

[Alan Sisto]

You can't show me more of what an insensitive and inhuman person you are than to treat your child this way. I'm not justifying the way he treated Horrendous. I'm not wiping that away or forgetting about. About it. But those are two adults, as we have often pointed out. These are. She willingly entered this relationship not under deceit or anything like that. Maybe under a belief that things would change. But economy has no responsibility for entering this relationship. She had no choice. And for him to treat her like this is unforgivable.

[Sara Brown]

It is. It's. It's disgusting.

[Alan Sisto]

It's disgusting. Yeah.

[Sara Brown]

Yeah.

[Alan Sisto]

Anyway, we still have more to cover, and we're already over two hours, so. So let's keep rolling yeah.

[Sara Brown]

And here is something I think is quite understandable. That life among the women in a meriea might have been limiting, but it was comforting as well. It was peaceful, it was quiet. It was a place she always loved. And you're going to cling on to the things that you love in that sense.

[Alan Sisto]

Some nostalgia.

[Sara Brown]

When you feel like there's a coldness where a love should be, you're going to cling on to what you do love.

[Alan Sisto]

There's a sense of security.

[Sara Brown]

Exactly.

[Alan Sisto]

Sure.

[Sara Brown]

And it says in the text, in fact, she only slept peacefully when she could hear the sheep. But despite that love for her home and the desire for quiet, she didn't turn down the airship.

[Alan Sisto]

No. And I was giggling because I tend to sleep with like a white noise generator. Like a little bit of rain, you know, like the rain audit.

[Sara Brown]

Yes.

[Alan Sisto]

But I can't imagine sheep. That would be.

[Sara Brown]

Maybe you should try that.

[Alan Sisto]

I'm thinking about telling Alexa, play the sound of sheep. No, please don't. All right. Anyway, the airship. She didn't turn down the airship. The what? Don't worry, we'll get to that next episode. Deciding early on that when she was given the scepter, she would be a powerful ruling queen and would live however and wherever she wanted. This was that determination, that stubbornness, and also a reflection of the teaching that her mom gave her, which was. Was don't bend.

[Sara Brown]

Yep. No one's going to tell me what to do, ever.

[Alan Sisto]

Yep.

[Sara Brown]

Yeah.

[Alan Sisto]

And that's exactly the case, isn't it?

[Sara Brown]

So we then get the rest of her growing up years, the 18 years after Eldarion became king. So that would be the years 883 to 901 when she would be 28 years old, because she was 10 when he became king. So.

[Alan Sisto]

Wow. Wow. Those are important years.

[Sara Brown]

I know. And he's away for almost all them of it. So like we saw earlier, with him sailing away just a year or two into his reign, he apparently was gone a lot during those formative years of her life.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah. That really does put into an interesting perspective what we're going to see next week when she ends up marrying Halatan's son. Because that means in court at Armenala, she would have been spending a lot of time with Halakar.

[Sara Brown]

Yeah.

[Alan Sisto]

Or with Halatan. Sorry. Halicar is the son who she ends up marrying. Halatan is the dad who's the regent. So. So that. That is interesting. He would have seen her, you know, long before.

[Sara Brown]

I know. Like I said, if this was Like a modern day 2025 political program.

[Alan Sisto]

I want the emails for sure.

[Sara Brown]

So now he's gonna get her to marry his son, is he? Yeah, but apparently he's not a bad guy, so.

[Alan Sisto]

No, no, I, I, we'll, we'll see. I, I actually really love his genuineness, his, you know, transparency, even though he wasn't transparent up front. But we'll get to that next week. So during that time, as we imagine, she bounced back and forth between the likes to live. Armenelas, where you've got the parties and the jewelry and the admiration, and then Emerie, where there's peace and quiet and the sound of sheep. But we're told that grandma really likes her company and spoiled her just like she'd spoiled Aeldarion. I just keep coming back to the fact that if only the moms of Aldarian and Arendus had been better. Right?

[Sara Brown]

Oh, boy. Yeah. I mean, we already know that her spoiling her son was not a good thing and that really, she could have done with doing that a bit less. But I think Tolkien throws it in here to show that even under the guise of kindness, because I can only believe that Al Marion was being kind and loving.

[Alan Sisto]

Oh, sure.

[Sara Brown]

She still, you know, damages, and sometimes that happens unintentionally. Yeah, yeah.

[Alan Sisto]

That's what grandparents do, though. They spoil the grandkids.

[Sara Brown]

Yes, there is that as well. So, of course, if she'd had a parent there all the time, maybe that wouldn't have happened. But Eldarion's away most of the time. Varenndis is never there, so she's never.

[Alan Sisto]

Gonna show up to our mental loss. Are you kidding me?

[Sara Brown]

Yes, exactly. And when she was in the capital, everyone treats her with respect and submission, even the king, her father, which. Do you think that's a bit of guilt?

[Alan Sisto]

I mean, deference is like a humility in almost a giving way. And I feel like, yeah, that must be a sign that, you know, he's just giving her what she wants because he knows he's not been a very present father, let alone a good father. Yeah, maybe a little bit of that. Try not to psychoanalyze him too much.

[Sara Brown]

But it's so tempting, right?

[Alan Sisto]

Isn't it? Isn't it? Both of them? Yeah.

[Sara Brown]

Yeah. Now, she missed being in the quiet countryside, but she really enjoyed being admired and looked at by men as beautiful. She was not upset about that.

[Alan Sisto]

She's posting the thirst traps on Instagram. Yeah. Yeah. She grows up and she becomes more stubborn and willful, but was also annoyed by her Mom's behavior. She was acting like a widow and not a queen.

[Sara Brown]

Remember?

[Alan Sisto]

That was one of Aldarian's complaints. Like, I would rather she come and be this sort of, you know, aloof queen to thwart me than to just slide down into this darkness. And yet, that is actually what she does. But I did find one thing interesting here. She found irksome. That feels like a very deliberate call. But back to Aldarion and how easily he was irked.

[Sara Brown]

Oh, I'm sure it is. Tolkien never wrote it unintentionally. That's a deliberate choice of word by him to show that there are so many ways in which Ancalume is very similar to her father. And we know that her father is probably not the best person to be king of Numenor, and yet we know that Ancalime is the heir. Heir?

[Alan Sisto]

Not yet.

[Sara Brown]

Well, she's going to be the heir.

[Alan Sisto]

She's going to become the heir.

[Sara Brown]

So if she's too much like her father, how is that going to work out? Really well.

[Alan Sisto]

Well, not well, as we'll find out.

[Sara Brown]

Yeah. Now, despite her being annoyed by her mom, she went back to Ameri to get away from the city.

[Alan Sisto]

Oh, come on. She went back to the Emeria.

[Sara Brown]

No, I wasn't gonna do it.

[Alan Sisto]

I even put her in quotes for you.

[Sara Brown]

I deliberately did not do that.

[Alan Sisto]

I know you did. All right.

[Sara Brown]

But also, she goes back to the M. To manipulate her father.

[Alan Sisto]

Yes. Yes. And it's just awful, this manipulation. Remember we saw that last episode with the way Aldaria manipulated his father?

[Sara Brown]

Yes.

[Alan Sisto]

This is the same thing.

[Sara Brown]

It is. And it's. It's not a good thing.

[Alan Sisto]

No, it's a terrible thing.

[Sara Brown]

Yeah. These are not good character traits.

[Alan Sisto]

No. It's the most damning description of her character, but also, frankly, the most damning evidence of the generational trauma. She's described as clever and malicious.

[Sara Brown]

That is an awful word.

[Alan Sisto]

That's a terrible thing. I did never want my child to be described as malicious.

[Sara Brown]

No.

[Alan Sisto]

And then that she literally enjoyed watching her parents fight over her. Oh.

[Sara Brown]

Oh, that is so awful. The worst thing about this is she need not have been like this when we see her as a very, very young child back in Ameria. Back in. Yeah. Okay. I won't do it.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah, I know. It's enough time. So point made.

[Sara Brown]

When we see her all the way back in those times when she's 3, 4, 9, she's not like that. She is malicious. She has learned to be malicious.

[Alan Sisto]

Where are you going to take me this summer? Dad.

[Sara Brown]

Oh, don't you break my heart.

[Alan Sisto]

Is great weeks for that little girl. Because that little girl's gone.

[Sara Brown]

It is. Yeah. She's gone and she's never coming back because. No, no, this is exactly what you were just saying. Generational trauma. You know, when we were talking about this before, it really reminds me of the poem this be the verse by Philip Larkin. I want to talk about that in relation to this, but I think we're going to put that in a P5, right?

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah. Given the time, I think we're going to need to.

[Sara Brown]

Okay.

[Alan Sisto]

All right. Well, Barliman continued to return to the pony, both as a retreat from Bree and because he desired thus to vex well, everybody depending on speedy mail delivery. Sara, what does Barliman have in his bag for us today?

[Sara Brown]

So the question that comes in today, which is from Lely in France, she asks, what about the role of parental influence on both Aldarion and Arendis? Because you've talked a lot about the parental role that they have and its effect on Ancalime. How do their relationships with their parents shape their values, their decisions, and maybe ultimately their conflict?

[Alan Sisto]

I think certainly their moms play a pretty strong role. We know very little about Erendis dad. He's mentioned, I think, named just that one time. And then we don't really hear anything other than him basically saying, so what should we do? And that's when Nunez like, well, she's not coming here. You know, we get a lot about Meneldor and we get a lot about Almarion. Yeah, it's. I mean, Almarien. The only thing we see for sure is that she indulged him in his youth.

[Sara Brown]

Yeah.

[Alan Sisto]

We also see that she certainly has more grace for his bad decisions as a young man than even Meneldur does. And Mineldur arguably has a little bit too much early on. So you've got permissive mom on one side side who allows Eldarion to do more than he should be allowed to do and therefore to not understand what it's like to be opposed. So that's problematic. I mean, that's where that obviously he had that character trait inherently. But the thing is, if you've got that in a kid who's faced with the realization that there are other wills that are opposed, namely parents who can then enforce consequences, he learns to control that and to act appropriately. Aeldarion obviously never learned that. And the idea that anybody could dare oppose him is just insolence. Right. So I think you've got permissive mom on one side this sort of manipulative mom on the other with Nuneth, you know. Oh, you know, royal grandchildren would be really nice and let me conspire with Al Marion to get you in the court and to see this guy and, well, you know what you're getting into. I'm very cold and just looking really, just at the outcome. Like, I only want royal grandchildren. I don't care what really happens to you. My daughter. Daughter. That. That's. That's nasty.

[Sara Brown]

It is.

[Alan Sisto]

So they clearly, they're both damaged goods to begin with.

[Sara Brown]

Oh, yes, I think so. I think that Aldarion maybe has a little less excuse for it.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah. Oh, yeah.

[Sara Brown]

I'm not completely letting Al Marion off the hook.

[Alan Sisto]

No, I don't think so.

[Sara Brown]

I. You know, I think her behavior as a mother comes from a good place. But it's not a great way to be a mum. You are supposed to help. Help to form your child into a being that can function in society.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah, that'd be nice, wouldn't it? That is your job.

[Sara Brown]

Part of the job of being a parent. And indulging them in everything is not a great way to go about it.

[Alan Sisto]

No, it might be easy. It's the road of least resistance.

[Sara Brown]

Yeah. I've never been a great proponent of the path of least resistance style of parenting because it just creates a bigger stick that you'll be beaten with when they get older.

[Alan Sisto]

That is true. And as Eldarian has prov. I mean, you look at the way he treats his father.

[Sara Brown]

Yes. And it treats him terribly, except when he suddenly gets the kingship and then he's all like, oh, Daddy, thank you. Yeah, all is forgiven.

[Alan Sisto]

All is for good. I did nothing wrong, son. But. Yeah, no, I know. Definitely. And that's the thing, you know, none of these things happen in a vacuum. You know, we bash Eldarion, we bash Arendus. None of this happens in a vacuum. I mean, next week we're going to be bashing on Calumet pretty hard, but because we've spent 11 weeks beating up her parents, it's not going to feel as weird. But we recognize that both Eldarion and Arendus are damaged goods. And like you said, I think Eldarion has fewer excuses.

[Sara Brown]

But he has some.

[Alan Sisto]

But he has some. You know, I mean, certainly a very permissive mom. And growing up as the heir, because even when he hadn't been declared the king's heir, you knew he was the heir because he's the only son, you know, gives him a position of power and of influence that a child shouldn't really have, but he did.

[Sara Brown]

Yeah. And Maneldor did also indulge him to start off with.

[Alan Sisto]

He did. He did. Because he saw himself in his son. Like, I loved astronomy. You like sailing? Okay, great. Go off with Grandpa. I trust Grandpa to take good care of you. And he came back. But he saw it the way he saw himself in astronomy. Like that. You'll grow out of this. Even if you love it, you'll grow out of it because you'll grow into your duty and your responsibility. But he never did, or at least.

[Sara Brown]

Have the strength to put it to one side so that you can focus on. On your duties.

[Alan Sisto]

Exactly.

[Sara Brown]

Yeah. But he failed to understand the nature of his son.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah. Yeah. I don't know how much that would have shown early on, but, yeah, he certainly did. No doubt about it. Tough stuff. My goodness. Well, folks, thank you for joining us for another episode of the Prancing Pony podcast. Please join us again next week when Aldarian changes the rules of the game again.

[Sara Brown]

Shocker.

[Alan Sisto]

I know.

[Sara Brown]

Now, Alan and I want to thank the members of the team. PPP editor Jordan Reynolds Barleyman, Becca Davis, social media manager Casey Hilsey, Event and Patreon community coordinator Katie McKenna, graphic artist Megan Collins, video editor Jonathan Lacens, and website guru Phil Dean.

[Alan Sisto]

And please take a minute to check out the prancingponypodcast.com that's where you'll find show notes, outtakes, and Prancing Pony ponderings. We are still in the process of changing vendors, but our online storefront should be back up and running. You get all sorts of cool PPP merch there, including the incredible chapter art, especially from this story that Megan's been doing for the last three seasons.

[Sara Brown]

Indeed, we're all about the books here at the Prancing Pony podcast, so be sure to also visit our library page. We try to make sure that any book we've mentioned on the show is linked there for you to purchase. And we do get a small amount of compensation when you make your purchase, so thank you for that.

[Alan Sisto]

Indeed, we also want to thank our patrons at the Caerdance contribution tier. I'll start with Demay in Alaska, Chad in Texas, Lance in New Jersey, Joseph in Michigan, Kathy from North Carolina, Brian in the uk, Jerry from Washington, Irwin from the Netherlands, Ben in Minnesota, Anthony in Texas, Zaksu in Illinois, Joshua in Massachusetts, Lucy in Texas, Erica in Texas, Vivian in California, and James in Massachusetts.

[Sara Brown]

There's also Ann in Kentucky, Sean in New Jersey, Mason in California, Maureen from Massachusetts, Olivia in London, Robert in Arizona, Nick in Wisconsin, Lewis in South Carolina, Thomas in Germany, Craig in California, Kevin in Massachusetts, Joe in Maryland, Scott in California, Jeffrey in Michigan, and Paul in Colorado. Thank you all so very much for your support indeed.

[Alan Sisto]

Thank you.

[Sara Brown]

Now, make sure you don't miss any episodes of the Prancing Pony Podcast. Subscribe now through Spotify, Apple Podcasts, Amazon Music, or your favorite podcast app.

[Alan Sisto]

And one last thing. As always, don't forget to send your thoughts, comments, and most of all, your long audio loops of the Sound of Sheep to parliament@the prancingponypodcast.com Parliament does have.

[Sara Brown]

A lot of mail to sort through, though, so we'll try to get to you just as soon as we're able.

[Alan Sisto]

As always, this has been far too short a time to spend among such excellent and admirable listeners and sheep. But until next time.

[Sara Brown]

Although farewell, folks.