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- [00:00]
A
It is finally cold here in Southern California and these last few weeks I've really been enjoying staying warm with the softest and coziest sponsor that we've had here at the podcast, Lola Blankets. Now when I got mine earlier this year, I was immediately struck by just how soft and cozy it is, but also with how good it looks. I chose a smoke gray design that really fits with my style, but they've got a ton of different colors and patterns and styles to choose from, so. So you can definitely find something that will fit your space perfectly too. Now, Lola Blankets are blankets done right. They're super, super, super soft. I just cannot tell you how soft they are. Four way stretch double hemmed construction and I've had mine long enough and washed it often enough to tell you it doesn't shed or pill. They've got large blankets, super sized extra large blankets, and they've even got weighted blankets too. And they're great. Not just as a holiday gift, but for birthdays, housewarmings and more. Now for a limited time, our listeners can get 40% off select Lola Blankets products with Code Pony at checkout. Just head to lolablankets.com that's L O L A blankets.com and use code pony to get 40% off your order. Now after you purchase, they'll ask where you heard about them. Please support our show and let them know we sent you. Wrap yourself in luxury with Lola Blankets. Reggie, I just sold my car online. Let's go, grandpa. Wait, you did? Yep, on Carvana. Just put in the license plate, answered a few questions, got an offer in minutes. Easier than setting up that new digital picture frame. You don't say. Yeah, they're even picking it up tomorrow. Talk about fast. Wow. Way to go. So about that picture frame. Ah, forget about it. Until Carvana makes one, I'm not interested.
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B
Car selling made easy on Carvana. Pick up fees may apply.
- [02:05]
A
Good evening, little masters, and welcome to episode 395 of the Prancing Pony podcast where I've caused the law of succession for PPP co hosts to be changed.
- [02:16]
B
Oh well, as long as it's not agnatic primogeniture. Maybe I can still come back again next season. Maybe.
- [02:22]
A
We'll have to see.
- [02:24]
B
Folks, pull up a bench in the common room and join us. I'm Sara Brown, the shield maiden of Rohan. And I'm here with the man of the west who has done this for reasons of private concern rather than policy, Alan Sisto.
- [02:35]
A
I have no long resolve to defeat anyone, though so that helps. Folks, join us as well. Ankana certainly makes some choices as we conclude the long and tragic story of Aldarian and Arendus from Unfinished Tales.
- [02:49]
B
You mean we're. We're finally nearly at the end of the long and tragic story?
- [02:54]
A
Yeah, we are. We finally are.
- [02:56]
B
Oh, boy. Now, folks, no matter whether you come to Middle Earth through the books, the films, the TV show, or something else, each of you is welcome here in our common room. The Prancing Pony Podcast continues in our 10th season of Reading and talking our way through Middle Earth with conversations, digressions, and even some speculations.
- [03:14]
A
Not to mention a few puns and bad jokes here and there. I know you're used to it by now. Our purpose here is to dive deep into the lore, discuss the story, our favorite characters and themes, Tolkien's inspirations, and a whole lot more.
- [03:28]
B
And while we take the work seriously, the same really cannot be said about ourselves. We're just a couple of friends chatting at the pub, and we're glad you joined us.
- [03:37]
A
And I'm sure you'll be glad you joined as well. But before we get to tonight's chapter discussion, well, it's time for me to sit down and have a chat with Sara before she leaves us this season.
- [03:46]
B
Oh, I've grabbed my tissue already.
- [03:49]
A
I've grabbed my. What are you talking about?
- [03:51]
B
Oh, you're so mean. I don't know why I keep putting up with you.
- [03:55]
A
So, last season, when you joined me for the third block of episodes, which are Tale of Aragorn and Arwen, as well as some stuff on the Dwarves, we chatted about what I would cover on the PPP this season. I want to ask you, what was it about this story, Eldarion and Arendus, that made you want to come back? Why this tale?
- [04:11]
B
Well, this story stands out to me because it is such a rich and complex exploration of love and marriage that feels really rather different from the more traditional heroic or romantic tales that we would often focus on otherwise. I mean, unlike the epic romance of Aragon and Arwen, this story dives into the messy realities of a relationship that has been strained by personal desires, social expectations, and some conflicting priorities.
- [04:42]
A
A few, you might say.
- [04:43]
B
Yeah, just a few. What really drew me into it, though, was how Tolkien subverts the usual romantic tropes to show a marriage that just doesn't work out. Not being because of, you know, external enemies or grand quests or anything like that, but just because of very human flaws and misunderstandings and lack of communication.
- [05:06]
A
That's right. Clearly as we've talked about a number of times.
- [05:10]
B
Oh, yeah. I mean, this whole story is a story about failure and compromise, or the lack of it, and communication, or the lack of it. And honestly, it feels both honest and relatable. And I wanted to come back to this story because I have read it a number of times. I've written on it a couple of times because I think it offers a fresh lens on Tolkien's world. It's one that highlights the emotional and social complexities under the surface of the legendarium. I mean, this tale isn't just about love. And, you know, there is some love in there. Or there.
- [05:45]
A
Yeah. Moments of it, at least.
- [05:47]
B
Yeah, exactly. I think this story is also about cultural change and the beginning of the decline of Numenor, and that makes it a deeply layered narrative that's connecting personal and political themes. So for me, this story opens up conversations about things like gender roles, independence, the cost of pride, and these are really modern themes, actually. So it felt like an opportunity to explore with you a side of Tolkien storytelling that's both scholarly and really deeply human.
- [06:21]
A
Yeah.
- [06:22]
B
And that's why I was excited to dive into it again.
- [06:24]
A
I'm glad you did. You mentioned earlier that you've written on this before, and in those papers, you discussed something that we haven't had the chance to cover really, at all in these episodes, which is surprising considering how much time we have spent.
- [06:37]
B
We'd have needed, like, 15 episodes exactly.
- [06:39]
A
You talked about how this story was inspired by medieval stories. Talk to us a little bit about that connection.
- [06:46]
B
Okay. So this story really shows how much Tolkien's love for medieval literature influenced his writing. I mean, we all know he wasn't just a great storyteller. He was also a serious scholar. He knew a lot about old English and Norse tales, that sort of thing. This background helped him to create stories like this that feel rich and layered, especially when it comes to themes like love and marriage. Because in medieval literature, especially in courtly romances, love was often idealized, but it could also be complicated by social rules and personal sacrifice. And those stories, they frequently explore the tension between things like duty and desire and the pain that can come from love that isn't perfectly fulfilled. So Tolkien was drawing on these ideas, but he gave them a more realistic twist. I think in this story, instead of a perfect love story, which this certainly is not, he shows. Right? He shows something that's a lot more complicated and in some ways more realistic, where love is often tied up with pain and misunderstanding and the struggle to balance personal Freedom with social expectations. And this complexity reflects medieval notions that true love and marriage were rarely simple or easy. They still aren't right. And they often involve sacrifice, conflict, and sometimes they involve tragedy, because that's just the way life. That it is. Yeah. So in the end, Tolkien isn't just retelling an old story, you know, these. These old courtly romances. He's also questioning those romantic ideals. He's showing us that marriage and love are hard, they're work, they're often messy, and sometimes it does end in heartbreak. And this fits in with what he wrote in his letters about how love requires effort and it sometimes leads to suffering. So by mixing these medieval influences, but with his own more modern insights, he's created a story with Aldarion and horrendous that, to me, feels both timeless and really. I've said this. It's really human.
- [09:01]
A
It is. It is the most human story, it feels like.
- [09:03]
B
I think so, Yeah. I think it's a really good example of what happens when you dig into the challenges of relationships and what happens when people can't meet each other halfway, which these two absolutely can't. And it's. It's also a great example of how medieval stories inspired him, but they didn't limit him.
- [09:23]
A
Right. How it's an inspiration, but it's not an echo. That's why we don't always look at the bones of the soup. Yeah.
- [09:29]
B
Yeah.
- [09:30]
A
Well, we have now spent well over 20 hours talking through this story, with a couple more hours to go. Since you've studied it before, you might not have an answer to this, but I'm curious, what new thing did you learn this time around that surprised you?
- [09:42]
B
It's not so much that I learned it, it's more that I noticed it more. And that's the amount of red flags there are before the marriage.
- [09:50]
A
Yeah, that's true. On both their counts. Really?
- [09:53]
B
I mean, on both accounts, yes. Not just Aeldarion. No, definitely on both their counts. I think it's really easy to focus on the marriage itself and how that marriage breaks down and just what a mess it is due to both of them, frankly, not being the best behaved and certainly not trying to compromise and nothing like that is going on. But for me, I hadn't paid as much attention to the number of red flags that they were before they even got married. And so that I think it's not that it surprised me. It just went into my brain a little deeper than it had before.
- [10:30]
A
That's good. All right. You get to be in the professor's head for a short time. Good luck with that.
- [10:35]
B
Yeah.
- [10:35]
A
You get to change one thing in the story of Aarion. And Red is one thing.
- [10:40]
B
What is it you change? Oh, that is a huge question. Because the easy thing would be to say, oh, well, I would just definitely not have the meat. But then we wouldn't have the story.
- [10:51]
A
Well, right, right.
- [10:52]
B
Yeah. And actually I'm gonna say that I don't want to change anything because there's a point that he's making in this story and if he's making a point, then who am I to change anything about it? The only thing I would love is if he had actually finished it.
- [11:11]
A
Yes, that's. And that's what I would say to that question.
- [11:14]
B
That's the only change, if change that is That I would make. Because actually this is good story. It's an in depth character exploration and we've talked about this during the episodes. There's a reason why Tolkien wrote this. There's a reason why it's set here in this time, in this place, with these kinds of people.
- [11:37]
A
That's right.
- [11:37]
B
There's a reason for that. And so, yeah, I don't want to change any of that.
- [11:41]
A
No, I agree. I mean, the fact that this is the surviving Second Age narrative, again, I know we're speaking in universe as though. As though there was a real Numenor and as though it really fell into the water and that this is the only story that surv. This is the only story Tolkien actually wrote about this period of time.
- [11:58]
B
Yes.
- [11:58]
A
And it tells us so much, like you said, the cultural change that are. That's happening in Numenor. There's just a lot there. And you're right, it would be. Part of me wants to say just that they don't have any children, but you're right, that would change the story as well.
- [12:12]
B
Yes.
- [12:12]
A
And Ankalame, again, it's a mark of the shift in Numenor, as we'll get to in this episode, because we get to talk about her reign.
- [12:22]
B
Yes, yes, her not particularly delightful reign, but it is important to have an calume because the existence of Ancalame, of course, tells us so much about the generational trauma that we're going to talk more about as we get into this episode.
- [12:37]
A
We will.
- [12:37]
B
But also because it's part of the beginning of the end. And yes, it's going to come many, many, many hundreds of years down the line. But it will come. And hear. Right here is where it starts.
- [12:51]
A
You know, one thing to say about that, I'D completely forgotten about this until I was looking this up in preparation for this episode. Remember in the very first episode we talked about the introduction to Unfinished Tales and also the introduction to this story. There was a name to the schemes. Right. So Christopher Tolkien's putting together different segments of his father's writing.
- [13:12]
B
Yeah.
- [13:12]
A
The name of this one, and this is something we. We hit on before, but I don't think we realized it when we were looking at the title of it. It was called the Shadow of the Shadow, the Tale of the Mariner's Wife and the Tale of the Queen Shepherdess. Yeah. This is the Shadow of the Shadow. It is the beginning of the end of Numenor. This isn't the big, oh, how dare you have eternal life and we don't, and we want that and blah, blah, blah. This isn't the later gripings about shorter lifespans, but this is the beginning of that.
- [13:45]
B
Yeah. And it has to begin somewhere. History in the primary world as well as in the secondary world is a series of dominoes. They're all lined up, and you tip one and they all tip over. Eventually they all tip over, but the one in the middle tips over because the one before it tipped over and back and back and back and back. Okay, so somewhere in Numenorean history, we know that we have to get to the point where Pharazon does what he does, and it begins with something much, much smaller than Pharazon's transgressions.
- [14:23]
A
Oh, yeah.
- [14:24]
B
And here is Tolkien saying, this is the first domino.
- [14:28]
A
Yeah, 100%. And we're going to get to see more of that domino here as we wrap up the story. Huh?
- [14:34]
B
Just to torture that metaphor. Okay, well, I think we should get straight to the story then. What do you reckon?
- [14:42]
A
I think we should. Now, in the year 892, when Ankalame was 19 years old, she was proclaimed the king's heir at a far earlier age than had previously been the case. And at that time, Tar Aldarien caused the law of succession in Numenor to be changed. It is said specifically that Tar Aldarien did this for reasons of private concern rather than policy, and out of his long resolve to defeat Irendis. The change of the law is referred to in the Lord of the Rings, Appendix A. The sixth king, Tar El Daryan, left only one child, a daughter. She became the first queen, in other words, ruling queen. For it was then made a law of the royal house that the eldest child of the king, whether man or woman, should receive the scepter so that's a quote from Lord of the Rings. And then Christopher comes back in to say. But elsewhere the new law is formulated differently from this. The fullest and clearest account states in the first place that the old law, as it was afterwards called, was not in fact a Numenorean law, but an inherited custom which circumstances had not yet called in question. And according to that custom, the ruler's eldest son inherited the scepter. It was understood that if there were no son, the nearest male kinsman of male descent from Elros Tarminyatur would be the heir. Thus, if Tarmeneldur had had no son, the heir would not have been Valandil, his nephew, son of his sister Silmarion, but Malantur, his cousin, grandson of Tar Elendil's younger brother Earendur. But by the new law, the eldest daughter of the ruler inherited the scepter if he had no son. This being of course, and I'm interjecting here to point out, this is Christopher explaining this in contradiction to what is said in the Lord of the Rings. By the advice of the council, it was added that she was free to refuse. In such a case, according to the new law, the heir of the ruler was the nearest male kinsman, whether by male or female descent. Thus, if Ancalame had refused the scepter, Tar Aldarien's heir would have been Soronto, the son of his sister Ilanel. And if Ancalame had resigned the scepter or died childless, Soronto would likewise have been her heir.
- [17:03]
B
That's not complicated at all.
- [17:05]
A
I know. We'll have to definitely take our time to break that all apart, won't we?
- [17:08]
B
Yeah, but let's start right back at the beginning, because that's a very good place to start, apparently.
- [17:13]
A
Always is. That's right.
- [17:14]
B
We move to second age892, and ancalome is no longer a child.
- [17:19]
A
Correct.
- [17:20]
B
But at 19, she's way younger than king's heirs are normally proclaimed.
- [17:26]
A
Hey, 19. I mean, that's also a good one. I was thinking Steely Dan, and you know, we got nothing in common here, but Aldarion was named King's heir at 100, to give you a comparison. And we read at the time that was the normal age for Meneldor desired to proclaim Aldarian the king's heir, as had been done at that age of the heir by the kings before him. And just so you're aware, folks, As a reminder, 100 numenorean is approximately equivalent to 36.
- [17:59]
B
So imagine what 19 numenorean is 19.
- [18:03]
A
Because you don't. You don't change until you're, I think, 25.
- [18:06]
B
You don't change until you reach adulthood, really, do you? But still, I mean, that's very, very, very young. Yeah. And more than just being young, she's also, you know, not a man. You noticed now we're told that Tar El Darion changed the law of succession. Accurately caused the law to be changed. That's interesting wording.
- [18:28]
A
It was very interesting wording.
- [18:29]
B
I. Yeah.
- [18:30]
A
I kind of feel like it's a fancy way of. Of saying that he changed the law because the council doesn't have any legislative power.
- [18:38]
B
No, but, you know, caused the law to be changed is definitely. He's putting.
- [18:43]
A
Passive.
- [18:43]
B
Yeah. Yes. It is a very weirdly passive way of writing that.
- [18:49]
A
Yeah.
- [18:49]
B
I mean, you could probably infer that there was a little bit of backlash from some of the members of the Council because he's overturning many, many hundreds of years of tradition.
- [18:59]
A
900 years of tradition. Yeah.
- [19:02]
B
So maybe that's supposed to imply that he caused it to be changed, meant that he had it changed. But yeah, maybe there were others who didn't want that. I don't know. It's just a strange way of writing it.
- [19:16]
A
Yeah. I don't know what it is. It is an interesting way of putting it, isn't it? And we'll get to what the new law is first. But I want to talk about the reasoning behind the change. Right. It's described as. Is not a policy reason. This isn't like, oh, we want to, you know, show that women are equal to men. This isn't about, oh, no, raising up women or equality or anything. This is a personal reason. It is his long resolve to defeat. Horrendous.
- [19:41]
B
So spiteful.
- [19:42]
A
It is. I mean, even if we could agree that it would be more just to allow the eldest child to become king or queen regardless of their sex. The reason for this is just petty. It's manipulative. It's. It's short sighted, really, isn't it?
- [19:55]
B
Yes, it really is. It's the fact that all of this is done to spite Hirendis. All of this is done to make Arrendice miserable.
- [20:03]
A
Yeah.
- [20:04]
B
You know, the idea of defeating her. I mean, why do you have to defeat her?
- [20:07]
A
Dude, she's already defeated, man.
- [20:10]
B
I know. It's like he wants to not just defeat her, but annihilate.
- [20:14]
A
Yes.
- [20:15]
B
I mean, really, did she do something so bad that she deserved to be this defeated?
- [20:21]
A
I Mean, seriously, does this go back to her not greeting him appropriately when he made his way to Emerie?
- [20:27]
B
Well, if so, that makes him very sulky. Yeah, that is really petty. But also, let's just sort of take a step back here and ask ourselves what exactly about making Ancalome the heir is aimed at defeating Arendis? I mean, I don't think Arendys was waiting around for Eldarion to join her in the marriage bed anytime soon. To have any more children. I think that is. That's gone. That's long gone.
- [20:57]
A
Can we just do it again? That ship has sailed. I mean, that's. That metaphor has to be a terrible.
- [21:03]
B
Okay, I'm gonna let you have that one.
- [21:05]
A
Okay.
- [21:06]
B
Yes. That's actually fair.
- [21:08]
A
That's a very good question. I mean, in what way does this defeat Orendus? And I think it's just simply a matter of declaring her the king's heir is going to give him more influence and power over Ancalame. It's going to require perhaps that Ancalame move out of the White House. In Amerie, it's more taking you away or taking her away from you.
- [21:29]
B
Tying her to him. Far more.
- [21:31]
A
Yes. Far more. Yeah.
- [21:34]
B
Yeah.
- [21:34]
A
And you know, I'm sure Irendus thought, okay, I get to spend the rest of my life with my daughter up in the hills. And you know, remember, daughter, you have a mother who loves you and won't run away so long as you love her too.
- [21:47]
B
Yeah. Nothing manipulative about that.
- [21:49]
A
That was nasty. But, you know, she imagined her living out the rest of her days there in a mediere with her.
- [21:56]
B
Yeah. So this is incredibly selfish, by the way.
- [21:59]
A
Very. Oh, yeah, it is. It is. They're both. At this point, she's. She's definitely, you know, like we talked about before, at this point, she shares in the blame. Maybe it's where it might have been 8020 Aldarian before. It's like 6040. Or end just now.
- [22:12]
B
It's more like 6040 here. Yeah. I mean, for a parent to decide that the child is going to be their companion forever.
- [22:21]
A
Yeah.
- [22:22]
B
Is I think, just an appalling thing. A child is not your possession.
- [22:25]
A
No.
- [22:25]
B
You know, you may be the parent, but you get lent that child until they become an adult. And then they are fully entitled to have their own life. And to decide that your daughter can't have her own life because she needs to be with you hidden away in the hills.
- [22:44]
A
Darion's doing the same thing, though. He's deciding what she's doing.
- [22:47]
B
I'm not letting him off the hook here.
- [22:48]
A
That's the thing. They're both deciding for her. And in fact, he's going to make it in such a way that she doesn't even get to decide not to take this at first. Right. So we do allow a refusal, but, you know, we've got other problems if we do that, so we'll get into that. I also wondered, though, if he had waited until she was 100, would her character have shown up enough for him to say, maybe changing the law is not so good right now because she's kind of bitter.
- [23:15]
B
Not a great person, not a great.
- [23:16]
A
Human being, as we'll see later, her poor granddaughters. But if he'd given her a chance to grow up a bit, he could see.
- [23:23]
B
But then he'd have to be around to see that where is he?
- [23:25]
A
Well, that's true, that's true. And perhaps he's thinking this way he'll have more influence and then can shape her.
- [23:31]
B
Yes, but you also, if you want to do that, have to be there. And where is he?
- [23:35]
A
Yeah, he's. He's in a little. Lost or at sea.
- [23:38]
B
Yeah, exactly. So whatever his intention was, it's not going to be the case that he can have a whole lot of influence on Ankali May, because, like I said.
- [23:48]
A
You got to be there, you got to be present to have influence. It's true.
- [23:51]
B
Yeah. So, anyway, this law change, what is the change in the law? Now, Christopher first points us to the law as it's described in Appendix A in the Lord of the Rings.
- [24:02]
A
Yeah.
- [24:02]
B
Where we read that it was then made a law that the eldest child of the king, whether man or woman, should receive the scepter.
- [24:11]
A
That's right. So that's a form of primogeniture known as absolute primogeniture, where the eldest surviving child, without regard to sex, inherits the throne. And it's interesting because for a system that Tolkien writes about in the mid-50s, because that's when he wrote the. Not when he wrote this story, but when he wrote the appendix to the Lord of the Rings. No monarchy had yet implemented this form of primogeniture.
- [24:32]
B
Correct.
- [24:33]
A
And none of them would until Sweden did in 1980, with several others following suit in the following, like, 5, 10 years. But this was not a system in. In place in the real world at all.
- [24:44]
B
Well, we could. We could actually discuss whether we think Tolkien was presenting this overturning of agnatic primogenit as a good thing or a bad thing.
- [24:56]
A
We could have that conversation.
- [24:57]
B
We could have that conversation, but I suspect we'd be here for another hour going through all of that. But in the writings for Unfinished Tales, as Christopher explains, we do have a few different variations where the rule of primogeniture is, he says, formulated differently. And one version, the one that Christopher describes as the fullest and clearest version, first indicates that the previous system wasn't ever a law, but just an inherited custom.
- [25:25]
A
That's right. And under that system, if the king didn't have a son, the scepter would go to the nearest male kinsman of male descent. Now that's agnatic primogeniture, also known as patrilineal primogeniture.
- [25:38]
B
Right. It also says in the text, of course, that it was an inherited custom which circumstances had not yet called in question. Silmarian wants a word.
- [25:49]
A
I was thinking the same thing.
- [25:50]
B
I mean, what?
- [25:51]
A
I was saying the exact same thing. Somarian.
- [25:54]
B
Hello.
- [25:56]
A
What do you mean it's not been called into question?
- [25:59]
B
I think that precise circumstance called it into question, but they seem to have skipped merrily over that one. So anyway, Christopher explains what this means by positing a scenario in which Minelda doesn't have a son.
- [26:14]
A
That's interesting.
- [26:15]
B
That would be nice for Horrendous, wouldn't it?
- [26:17]
A
I think so, yeah.
- [26:20]
B
Now, in that situation, the scepter would not go simply to the nearest kinsman, which would actually have been Valandil, who was the son of Minilda's older sister, Silmarion, the one we just mentioned, who was exactly the circumstance that perhaps should have put this in question in the first place.
- [26:36]
A
Exactly. No, in that system it would have gone to Melantur. And for this to be really clear, folks, we kind of need to lay out the family tree a bit. So go back to kings, from Meneldur to Tar Amandil. His eldest son, Elendil, becomes the king, and that's Meneldur's father. But Taramandil had another son, Earendur. Now, he had a son, Kaliando, that we don't know anything about. He had a son, Melantur, that we don't know anything about. But because this system relies on male kinsmen of male descent, Silmarien's son and grandson and so on, they never would have been eligible. So you actually have to go back up the tree until you can find a brother.
- [27:18]
B
What an unnecessarily complicated situation, isn't it?
- [27:21]
A
And that's Salic law, right? That's the Pure agnatic primogeniture.
- [27:26]
B
Yeah, absolutely. Now, had Earendur been alive, or even his son Kaliondo, what a great name, isn't it? Yeah, yeah. They would have inherited it before Melantor. But since they're not, Melantor would have been the heir under this old inherited custom of agnatic primogeniture.
- [27:46]
A
But now we get the new law in Unfinished Tales, and this is where it gets interesting, because it is neither the Salic law of pure agnatic primogeniture that we just talked about, but neither is it what's described in the appendix in the Lord of the Rings, where it's just absolute primogeniture. Here it is the eldest daughter that gets the scepter, but only if there are no other male heirs of the king. So in other words, imagine that Enkalam was the eldest child, which she was. But imagine that for some crazy reason, they both got drunk one night. Aldarin and Horrendous have a second child.
- [28:20]
B
Well, you call a Chardonnay kid.
- [28:26]
A
And this time it's a boy named. Well, whatever Quenia is for, man, my parents are a mess.
- [28:33]
B
I'm sure we could find that word.
- [28:34]
A
I'm sure we could.
- [28:37]
B
Now, that boy, even though he was born second, he would still become king.
- [28:42]
A
Yeah.
- [28:43]
B
So the only way a daughter inherited the throne is if the king had no sons.
- [28:48]
A
Right.
- [28:49]
B
Now, this obviously is not absolute primogeniture. Instead, it's a system known as cognatic primogeniture or male preference primogeniture.
- [29:01]
A
I hear that toad in your voice.
- [29:02]
B
Did you? Thought you might. So, going back to our scenario of a second child being a boy, now imagine that he grew up, got married, and had a son and then died. Now, that son's son would still become king over ancalame in a male preference primogeniture. It's really hard for me to say something like male preference primogeniture without my lip curling. So if you hear something weird in my voice, that's why.
- [29:28]
A
That's why I gave you those lines.
- [29:30]
B
I know.
- [29:31]
A
You're welcome.
- [29:32]
B
Go on, go on. The only way a female member of the dynasty gets the scepter under this system, apart from stealing it, running off with it, would be if she has no living brothers and no dead brothers who have left sons.
- [29:49]
A
This was actually the System in the UK until 2015, and they adopted absolute primogeniture a little bit later than most of those other European countries, interestingly enough.
- [29:59]
B
Yeah. Now, you don't want to get me started on the British royal family.
- [30:02]
A
It might be because they actually had a queen in place, so they weren't thinking about the necessity of that. But at some point they had to change the rules and they did.
- [30:10]
B
Yes. It only took them till 2015 to, you know, enter the 21st century.
- [30:15]
A
500 years or so since.
- [30:17]
B
Yeah.
- [30:17]
A
So the council here in Numenor, knowing that it would be possible, maybe even likely, for a daughter down the road sometime to want to refuse the scepter, they suggested a change that would allow refusal. And in that scenario, the scepter would then go to the nearest male kinsman. But it was no longer of male descent. The line of descent didn't matter anymore.
- [30:39]
B
Yep, Again with really, really complicated. And do note that it's only possible for a daughter to refuse the scepter in this.
- [30:46]
A
Yeah, we'll get to. We'll get to that. It's a very interesting. I mean, because a son could, but not in. Not actually refuse. Well, their. Their choice is different.
- [30:55]
B
It is, yes. And in fact, this has already happened.
- [30:57]
A
Of course, earlier in Numenor with El Ross's son. But we'll get to that.
- [31:01]
B
Exactly. Now, this, in our story, means that Soronto, who was the son of Aldarion's sister Ilanel, he would become king.
- [31:10]
A
That's right.
- [31:11]
B
So similar story to what would happen if, before having any children, she either resigned the scepter or died.
- [31:17]
A
Exactly. But now we get to. What about a man refusing the scepter? He can't do that. Only a woman can refuse it. But what a man can do is just immediately resign the scepter to their natural heir, if they have one. And if they don't, then they'd have to follow back up the tree over to a brother and back down to another son. And that is exactly what happened with Elros's son, Vardamir, who handed the scepter straight on to Amandil. But the difference there in that situation is that king will be listed in the role of kings as having been king for a year, even though he was only king for a day.
- [31:52]
B
You technically held the scepter.
- [31:53]
A
Exactly. You held the scepter. So you were the king, and you're king in, let's say it's 2025. Right. So I inherit the scepter in 2025. I give it off in the same day. Well, the previous king reigned until 2025. I was the king in 2025, and then so was my heir, and that's exactly what happened with Vardimir and Amandil. But Ankalame, or a female heir could refuse, right?
- [32:16]
B
Yes. This would allow a scepter to pass to a male kinsman. So, okay, another scenario. Let's say Ancalame was already married and had a child when she was offered the scepter, as she in fact will be.
- [32:28]
A
That's true, yeah. Her son will be born by then.
- [32:30]
B
Yeah, yeah. She could refuse and it would go to Soronto. Or she could accept and immediately resign, giving it to her son Aenarion. A male heir would not have that choice and could only accept and immediately resign.
- [32:46]
A
Then in the paragraph we skipped, we get more additions to this new law of male preference or cognatic primogeniture. First, if the female heir remained unmarried past a certain point, and it's not specified, she would be required to resign. And presumably that's to avoid the possibility of her not producing an heir herself. But as we'll learn shortly, that requirement gets wiped away very quickly.
- [33:11]
B
Now, second, speaking of getting married, the king's heir, that's not just a daughter, but any king's heir must marry within the line of Elros. If they marry outside the line, they are no longer eligible to be an heir. I wonder why that was brought in.
- [33:27]
A
Yeah, wonder why. So, and Calumet is of the sixth generation in the line of El Ross. And really, honestly, it's only about now that there are enough candidates within the line of Elros that aren't too closely related. Right? You can't. You don't want to marry first cousins, and you probably don't even want to marry second cousins. But now that you're the sixth generation down, you can get. Get, you know, fourth cousin once removed or whatever. It all works out just fine. But you couldn't have done this two, 300 years before.
- [33:55]
B
No, that's true. And the reason for this requirement was of course said to be the disastrous marriage of Eldarion and Arendes.
- [34:02]
A
I love the quote. Disastrous marriage.
- [34:05]
B
Yep, yep, yep. That's absolutely right. With Aeldarion thinking about it, finally, it's about time. And realizing that Arendus shorter lifespan had been a bit of a problem. No kidding.
- [34:18]
A
He still. It totally reminds me of that. That meme where the guy is standing, the stick figure and the word point flies right over his head. And he just kind of looks at it because he misses the point entirely. When we read that he believed that therein lay the root of all their troubles.
- [34:34]
B
Oh boy. So close, Eldarion. So close.
- [34:37]
A
And yet and yet so far.
- [34:41]
B
Yes, poor old Earl Darion.
- [34:49]
A
Coming up on the new year and the colder days of winter. And for me that means wearing one of the cashmere sweaters that I bought from Quince. They're super soft, they didn't break the bank, and they're warm enough for my mild Southern California winters. So if you need a winter wardrobe reset, start with Quince. For pieces that are made to last season after season, Quince has the outerwear you need for the winter. Wool coats, down jackets, cashmere, Italian leather keep you warm, hold up really well for daily wear and look great. That's one reason I actually enjoy winter. I get to wear these really nice, good looking pieces. It's kind of a shame that California winters are so short Now. Quint's brings together premium materials, great design and quality that lasts so you look and feel your best, your warm best all season long. And the styles are classic. So your winter wardrobe, it's going to hold up year after year. Refresh your winter wardrobe with quince. Go to quince.com pony for free shipping on your order and 365 day returns. It's now available in Canada too. That's Quince Q U I n c e.com pony free shipping and 365 day returns. Quince new year same extra value meals at McDonald's. So now get two snack wraps plus fries and a medium soft drink for just $8 for a limited time only. Prices and participation may vary. Prices may be higher in Hawaii, Alaska and California. And for delivery have you ever wondered why we call French fries French fries? Or why something is the greatest thing since sliced bread? There are answers to those questions. Everything Everywhere Daily is a podcast for curious people who want to learn more about the world around them. Every day you'll learn something new about things you never knew you didn't know. Subjects include history, science, geography, mathematics and culture. If you're a curious person and want to learn more about the world you live in, just subscribe to Everything Everywhere Daily. Wherever you cast your podcast Now. Soon we'll get back to shepherd sliding into Ancalame's DMs. But before we do, take a minute to thank the amazing and obviously very patient community that has grown up around this show. After all, there is a lot more talk going on at the Prancing Pony podcast than just us.
- [37:13]
B
I'm still recovering. The PPP really does have a warm and welcoming listener community. If you've got questions or you just want to talk about how much you love Middle Earth, be sure to check out our common room on Facebook and across all social media on Facebook. Just look for the Prancing Pony podcast and yes there is a page but you're going to want to join the group for that great fan community now.
- [37:36]
A
On every social media platform other than Facebook. We are at Prancing Pony Pod and you can find our subreddit at R Prancing Pony Pod and be sure to check out my Daily show, today's Tolkien Times on YouTube and all your favorite podcast apps. Time for you to get your daily Middle Earth fix with everything from Middle Earth map Mondays to first stage Fridays. Be sure to watch or listen at YouTube.com rancingponypod Sara talk to us about.
- [38:02]
B
The Princess Shepherdess at all events. Suitors for Uncalime's hand soon began to appear in Amerie, and not only because of the change in her position, for the fame of her beauty, of her aloofness and disdain, and of the strangeness of her upbringing had run through the land. In that time the people began to speak of her as Emerwen Aranel, the Princess Shepherdess. To escape from importunity and Calimeh, aided by the old woman, Zamin, went into hiding at a farm on the borders of the lands of Halatan of Hierostorni, where she lived for a time the life of a shepherdess. The accounts, which are indeed no more than hasty jottings, vary as to how her parents responded to this state of affairs. According to one, Arendus herself knew where Ancalime was and approved the reason for her flight, while Aldarion prevented the council from searching for her, since it was to his mind that his daughter should act thus independently. According to another, however, Arendis was disturbed at Ancalime's flight, and the king was wrathful, and at this time Arendes attempted some reconciliation with him, at least in respect of Ancaliment. But Aldarion was unmoved, declaring that the king had no wife, but that he had a daughter and an heir, and that he did not believe that Arendus was ignorant of her hiding place. What is certain is that Ancalime fell in with a shepherd who was minding flocks in the same region, and to her this man named himself Mamandil. Ancalime was all unused to such company as his, and she took delight in his singing, in which he was skilled, and he sang to her songs that came out of far off days. When the Edain pastured their flocks in Eriador long ago, before ever they met the Eldar, they Met thus in the pastures often and often, and he altered the songs of the lovers of old and brought into them the names of Emerwen and Mamandil and Ancalime Feigned not to understand the drift of the words.
- [40:12]
A
We'll get to her feigned naivete a little bit. We did skip a couple of paragraphs. The first one is Christopher telling us that all the details about the new law were there because they were important to future Numenorean reigns. But that quote, unhappily, very little can now be said of it. Ah, you're not kidding about unhappily.
- [40:31]
B
I know. We want more. We want more.
- [40:34]
A
Ah, even this law stuff. Are you kidding me? I'd love to look through the law books of Numenor.
- [40:40]
B
Yes, I bet you would. And imagine what you could draw from it, all the inferences you could draw about what their society was like and what their culture. Oh, yeah, we could. We could go down a rabbit hole here all day. But next, we skipped a paragraph that explained that partly because Ankalame didn't want to get married or resign, the scepter Tar Al Darion changed the part of the law requiring a queen to marry or resign.
- [41:03]
A
That didn't last long.
- [41:04]
B
No, it did not.
- [41:05]
A
Oh, my, my, my poor little girl doesn't want to get married or. Okay, I'll just change the law. Helicopter parent here. So, that said, though, the tradition or custom of marrying only within the line of Elros remained. But there is a really great footnote about this that we really should take a look at. The tradition was exactly that. It was never actually a law, but it was more a custom of pride, Tolkien said. He explained that it was a symptom of the growth of the shadow, since it only became rigid when the distinction between the line of Elros and other families in lifespan, vigor, or ability had diminished or altogether disappeared.
- [41:45]
B
Well, that's fascinating, isn't it?
- [41:46]
A
And you want, like, when is that? When did it become rigid? And when did it parallel those changes.
- [41:55]
B
Much further down the line?
- [41:56]
A
Much further down the line. Because the lifespans didn't start changing until. Well, basically until after they started complaining about not having even longer lifespans. Sense.
- [42:04]
B
Yes, absolutely. Yeah. So it's interesting, isn't it, that the more things got to be on a parallel, the more the people within the line of Elros demanded and required that that remain as pure as possible. And I hate that word, pure when it comes to bloodlines.
- [42:22]
A
Boy. Yeah, you don't want that.
- [42:24]
B
No, no, no, no, no, no. But this is what Went on, wasn't it? The more they worried about not being special anymore.
- [42:31]
A
Yeah, that's exactly what it is. This is a way to kind of hold themselves over and be higher still than the normal people. Even though they were no different than the normal people now.
- [42:41]
B
No, not at all. The idea of we are better than you is. That's never a good way to go.
- [42:47]
A
No, it isn't. That's fair.
- [42:50]
B
So we picked up our reading though, with Sutas Frank Calime beginning to show up. I mean, after all, she's now the king's heir. But she's also beautiful.
- [42:57]
A
Indeed. You know, we've talked about that. She. She ends up being the fairest woman until the very last queen herself.
- [43:05]
B
Yes.
- [43:05]
A
You know, all the way at the end, so.
- [43:07]
B
But her mother was also known for her beauty.
- [43:09]
A
Stunning beauty. Right. I mean she gets compared to Morwen Eledhwen, I mean, she's absolutely stunning. So it's not a surprise. And of course Berendis thinks that Eldarion is a handsome guy. So you got two good looking people. They're going to make a good looking daughter here. It's interesting though that one of the other reasons given for the appearance of suitors is the fame of her aloofness and disdain and of the strangeness of her upbringing. Is this like a bunch. That is so weird to me. Like, ooh, high maintenance. I want, I want that. What is this a I can fix her sort of thing? Or is this like a point of pride in winning the hand of this aloof, disdainful woman? How weird is that?
- [43:48]
B
Probably a point of pride, isn't it? Yeah, because the more she would remain aloof, the more tantalizing she would be to people like this who want to chase those who don't have any interest in them.
- [44:02]
A
This is so weird.
- [44:03]
B
I mean, yes, it is a strange thing and frankly it would still be a. I would attempt to fix her anyway.
- [44:10]
A
Yeah.
- [44:11]
B
Because that's what happens, isn't it?
- [44:13]
A
That is. But I was just thinking like I'm looking on my list of qualities I want to find in a woman if I'm a young single man at Numenor. Aloof and disdainful are not on the list.
- [44:24]
B
Probably not, no. Yes. I suppose there would be a certain kudos in winning the hand of the woman who doesn't want to get married. Which is why of course, what happens next is so cleverly manipulative.
- [44:38]
A
Oh, it gets. Oh, it's awful. Yeah.
- [44:40]
B
So she begins to be known quite early on as Emerwen Aranel, which is translated for us as the princess shepherdess.
- [44:48]
A
And of course, I'm gonna still give you a little word nerdery. When is the maiden suffix? Of course. But note that emer element. It's the same emer element that's in Emeriye, the region known for its shepherds. But it's probably something to do with flocks or herds rather than sheep, because the Quenya word for sheep is mama, which we'll see shortly. Yeah, yeah. And that's exactly it. It's really onomatopoeic. Absolutely. That's why I love this guy's name. Mom and Dill, and it's the sheep friend, but we'll get to his name in a bit. And then Aranel, of course, is princess, because you've got Arun, king, and the el suffix for daughter. So daughter of a king. So I just. I love. I just absolutely love the word nerdery on that.
- [45:33]
B
Oh, yeah, that's really cool. So to get away from these annoyingly persistent suitors, she would hide out at a farm near the lands of Halatan, helped by her old friend Zamin. That's right. This is where we get an interesting examination of two different versions of the story at this point, from the various drafts, we get a lot of it is said that at this point, and.
- [45:54]
A
Now we get multiple it is saids.
- [45:56]
B
Yeah, yeah. So the first one, Arendis knew where she was and she was good with it. And Eldarion kept the council from looking for her because he wanted her to do her own thing. So the two parents were good with it, but for different reasons.
- [46:08]
A
Right. But the other version is that both parents were unhappy for different reasons. Earendus was disturbed and Eldarion wrathful. And it actually brought Erendis to the point of trying to. To co parent with Eldarion. Like, I actually got back in touch with my ex because I'm worried about my daughter.
- [46:27]
B
My toxic ex.
- [46:28]
A
Yeah. But he would have nothing to do with it. He believed that she knew exactly where Ankalame was. Which of those two do you think is more likely?
- [46:36]
B
Really? The first one. It's the most simple one.
- [46:39]
A
It is. Yeah.
- [46:41]
B
I think that it's quite likely that Arendis would applaud the idea of running away from all those importunate suitors.
- [46:49]
A
Importunate.
- [46:52]
B
And hiding out on a farm and getting away from everybody. And that Eldarion would think that this is his daughter just becoming totally independent. And this is ideal for a king's heir.
- [47:02]
A
Yeah. And not only is it ideal for a king's heir. He loves that about her. Even when she's, what, 6 or 9? When he comes back, I think 9, he sees her and he's like, oh, she reminds me of me. I mean, of course he's just looking for that, but. But, yeah, I think I agree with you. It's. The first one's more likely.
- [47:19]
B
Now, regardless of whether her parents knew and approved or were upset about it, we do know that while she was out here near Halatan's lands, she ended up with a shepherd in the area, as you do.
- [47:30]
A
And that's the guy called Mamandil. And that's just sheep friend. Right. I mean, you get the familiar ndil suffix, right? The friend or devotion. Earendil, lover of the sea. Elendil, elfriend. So that's the indilation. But the mama is for sheep. And I just love the phonetically appropriate sound of that. It's an onomatopoeic bleeding of the sheep. So I think from now on, I'm not going to say that sheep say ba. I'm going to say the sheep say ma.
- [47:58]
B
We're just gonna have to call it Marmandil.
- [48:01]
A
Mom and Dill.
- [48:06]
B
Now. And Kali, may remember, had had very little experience with boys or young men.
- [48:11]
A
Yeah. What is that noisy thing? Yeah.
- [48:15]
B
And we are told that she was all unused to such company.
- [48:19]
A
I love the way that's right. She was all unused to such company. I mean, Tolkien Singh, she wasn't slightly used to this. This was absolutely something she never had.
- [48:28]
B
Totally outside of her experience.
- [48:29]
A
Exactly. But it was good company. Right? She enjoyed his singing. We've talked before about how the Numenoreans are musical. Even when Eldarion shows up at the party, they're all singing and having a good time and playing musical instruments. And this Mamandeel is good at it. He's got a good voice. So he sings songs of their ancient history. I mean, we're talking early first age, before they were even the Edine, before they'd met the elves to become the Edine.
- [48:52]
B
Yeah. And they would meet often, and then he would tweak the lyrics of the songs to include their names.
- [48:59]
A
This is like creating a mixtape when you're a teenager and giving it to the girl you like.
- [49:07]
B
Yes. And every song has a meaning. Yeah. I chose this one because.
- [49:12]
A
Yeah, cringe.
- [49:14]
B
Yeah. I'm just trying to think back to the kind of mixtapes I used to listen to and thinking, yeah, that's why I didn't have many boyfriends when I was younger. And of course, Ankana is pretending not to catch what he's throwing.
- [49:27]
A
Yeah, Come on. She may be naive, she may be all unused to such company, but she's not blonde, Mind.
- [49:33]
B
She ain't stupid. No, no, not at all. And I think she's enjoying it.
- [49:38]
A
Of course. You know, she. Remember we talked about this the last episode. She loved the way people kind of doted on her and. And she loved that admiration. She doesn't want a relationship, but she sure does like to be admired. Yes. Yeah.
- [49:53]
B
Okay. Well, I think we could go into the next bit of reading.
- [49:57]
A
I think so. But at length he declared his love for her openly, and she drew back and refused him, saying that her fate lay between them, for she was the heir of the king. But Mom Indil was not abashed, and he laughed. And he told her that his right name was Halacar, son of Halatan of Hierostorni, of the line of Elros Tarminyatur. And how else could any wooer find you? He said. Then Ancalom was angry because he had deceived her, knowing from the first who she was. But he answered, that is true in part. I contrived indeed to meet the lady whose ways were so strange that I was curious to see more of her. But then I loved Emeruin, and I care not now who she may be. Do you not think that I pursue your high place? For far rather would I have it that you were Emerwen only I rejoice, but in this that I also am of the line of Elros, because otherwise I deem that we could not wed. We could, said Ancalame, if I had any mind to such a state, I could lay down my royalty and be free. But if I were to do so, I should be free to wed whom I will, and that would be uner, which is no man whom I prefer above all others. It was, however, to Halakar that Enkalame was wedded in the end. From one version it appears that the persistence of Halakar in his suit, despite her rejection of him and the urging of the council that she choose a husband for the quiet of the realm, led to their marriage not many years after their first meeting among the flocks in Emeriae. But elsewhere it is said that she remained unmarried so long that her cousin Sorrento, relying on the provision of the new law, called upon her to surrender the heirship, and that she then married Halakar in order to spite Soronto. In yet another brief notice, it is implied that she wedded Halakar after Eldarion had rescinded the provision in order to put an end to Soronto's hopes of becoming king if Ancalame died childless. Three unpack. Yeah, exactly. We'll get to the three options. But man, we got this story first. This little meet cube mute.
- [52:13]
B
Yeah, and although it's a shame that we don't have it all written out in a proper narrative like we have the earlier bit, there's quite a lot here to go through because eventually Mandil confesses his love for her. Sorry, I couldn't resist. Marmandil confesses his love for her and at first. And Kalame just falls back on the easy way to reject him. Yeah, sorry. I'm the heir of the king and I can't marry a shepherd.
- [52:38]
A
That's right. I am too far above you, you creepy sheep guy. That's okay. You've been hiding who you are. I've been doing the same. Hi, my name is Halakar. My dad is Halitan, cousin to your dad. I'm of the line of Elros. Wink, wink, nudge, nudge.
- [52:54]
B
I mean, how could anyone interested have found you without pretending to be someone else? He quite reasonably asked.
- [52:59]
A
He actually is not wrong, is he? I mean, she's gone to great lengths to be away from these importunate suitors. She's angry, though also quite understandable because he tricked her. I mean, yeah, she was trying to hide. But he knew full well who she was. But she didn't know who he was. So he's manipulated the circumstances.
- [53:19]
B
Oh, yes.
- [53:20]
A
And I just gotta ask you, is that a meet cute or is it disgusting? I mean, is this like, wow, look at the great lengths he went to to meet me and I'm so charmed by his pursuit. Or is this restraining order time.
- [53:37]
B
Time? I. I think it's somewhere in the middle. I would say it's not an ideal start to a relationship beginning with deceit.
- [53:45]
A
Yeah, yeah, that's.
- [53:46]
B
I mean, that's a fair point. Yeah. I mean, she is. She's angry. But she has also been deceiving him. Although she thought she was. And she wasn't actually.
- [53:55]
A
Right.
- [53:56]
B
She was certainly trying to.
- [53:58]
A
She's guilty of attempted deceit. He's guilty of actual deceit. Yeah, yes, and that's a good point.
- [54:03]
B
Like I said, it's possibly not the ideal beginning to a relationship.
- [54:07]
A
No.
- [54:07]
B
Where they're both trying to dece. Leave the other. I. I would say it's not a great start.
- [54:13]
A
No.
- [54:14]
B
It's difficult to condemn it utterly because in A way. He's right.
- [54:19]
A
Yeah.
- [54:20]
B
He wouldn't have been able to meet her under normal circumstances because she. She was not seeing any men. Thank you very much.
- [54:27]
A
No, she was all unused to this. This kind of attention.
- [54:31]
B
She was hanging out with the sheep instead. Maybe that's why he's a sheep friend.
- [54:37]
A
I think so. Marmandil. Yeah.
- [54:39]
B
So anyway, okay. Or not okay. It's happened and he concedes. Yes, I made this happen. It wasn't a coincidence they found you out here. And I did this because I was curious about you. And I got to know you as the shepherdess. I loved you regardless of your rank. Now, whether you believe that or not is a whole different thing.
- [55:00]
A
But I. I tend to believe, like, I. I believe him at this point. Point. Right. I don't. I don't have any reason not to. I like that he tells her up front. I mean, he doesn't tell her up up front. He tells her. Now. He's not forced to confess. He's. He's not like. Hey, wait a minute. Aren't you okay? Yeah, you got me. Right? I mean, he. He comes clean, so to speak. He does.
- [55:21]
B
Yes. That is definitely a tick on his side.
- [55:23]
A
Yeah. I mean, it doesn't make up for the fact that he's deceived her. I'm not saying. But it's. It's at least a point in his favor, Even if it's minus 10 points for what he did. So. So I do tend to believe him here. And his point is. Look, it'd be easier for me if you didn't have rank at all, because then we don't have to worry about the whole thing. But guess what? It's a good thing I have rank, because otherwise we couldn't marry. And we call this the assumptive close. Yeah.
- [55:50]
B
You haven't even asked her.
- [55:51]
A
This is pretty upfront. I love that. First it's, how else could any wooer find you? And then it's like, otherwise, I deem we could not wed. Yeah.
- [56:01]
B
Yeah. It would be nice if you asked first. Man, and calamay knows the law.
- [56:05]
A
Oh, yeah.
- [56:05]
B
She says, oh, we could marry if I wanted to.
- [56:09]
A
Yeah.
- [56:09]
B
I'd have to give up my heirship, but that assumes I want to get married.
- [56:15]
A
The large blimp with which travels numenor. Oh, man.
- [56:23]
B
And if I were free, well, I'd marry who I really want to marry. A guy named Uner.
- [56:29]
A
Of course, there is no guy named uner. It's a word meaning no man. That U prefix is a Negative prefix. It means no or not or un. We see it in Ulayri, which are the Ringwraiths. It literally is a word meaning unliving. We also see it in the pseudonym that Turin gives to his father. Do you remember when Turin calls himself Agarwain, son of Umar? Umarth is simply that negative U prefix attached to Amarth for faith or doom. So that's oo. And then the NER element is simply man. We see that in Galadriel's mother name, Nerwen, man maiden. So it's literally no man.
- [57:06]
B
But in fact she does end up getting married to Halakar. In the line of Elros chapter, we learn they wed in second age 1000, when she's 27 years old. And that's still pretty young.
- [57:17]
A
Pretty young, yeah, yeah.
- [57:19]
B
Cause Numenorean women didn't typically marry until 40 to 45.
- [57:23]
A
Unless your name is Orendus, in which case you wait till you're 99 cause your fiance's an idiot. It. But yeah, I also the no man part uner. I. I now feel like Aoin is saying you look upon un. I am a. And I am not uner. Yeah. As to the story of why she got married, this is a fun part, right? We get three different versions, right? We just read she didn't want to get married at all, but she did. But there's three different reasons why. The first version, I like this one, but I. I don't know if I. I don't know. We'll talk about which ones we like and which ones are most likely. But the first version is that Holikar's continued wooing combined with a little bit of pressure from the Council. They're urging. Which I don't like. No, they don't like the Council getting involved in this.
- [58:06]
B
No. And why would they? She's young. Why would she. Why would she need to be urged to get married when she's only 27? I mean, they've got another 20 years before they need to start getting worried, I would imagine.
- [58:19]
A
Yeah.
- [58:19]
B
Yeah. So that's one of the reasons why I'm not that keen on the first version. But let's look at the other ones. The second version is that she stayed unmarried for so long that Soronto, now you remember him, the son of Eldarion's sister, Aelin El. He called on her to give up the heirship in accordance with the new law. So she married Halacar just to spite Soronto. That one I could see.
- [58:42]
A
I could see that doing the third version, similar. It's also despite Sorrento, but she marries him only after dad changed the requirements. So, okay, now I don't have to get married, but I don't even want. I. I don't want to get the throne after I'm dead. So I'm gonna become. I'm gonna have an heir just to spite Soronto, who would have become king if she died before having any kids. So which do you think is most likely? And then which do you like best? I'll let you go first. Which do you think is the most likely one?
- [59:17]
B
Well, I'm counting out the first one. I just don't think that one works. The other two are both so spiteful and.
- [59:29]
A
Yeah, that's fair.
- [59:30]
B
And knowing what we know of Ankala May's character later on, either of these would work. I think that I really like the second version. I just like it because the idea that somebody would tell her to give up the airship. I can't see her receiving that sort of demand very well.
- [59:54]
A
No, she would not give up. What? I'm sorry.
- [59:58]
B
But again, also, she's still very young. I mean, it says she stayed unmarried for so long. That's not that long. She's only 27.
- [60:08]
A
And that's the thing. I think that's why the first one's probably the most likely, even if that's not the most sort of characterful one, because you're right that she would absolutely. Oh, you want me to give up the kingship or the airship now, do you? I'm just gonna get married. You know, I could totally see her doing that.
- [60:26]
B
I could totally see her doing that. But the time falling in love with.
- [60:31]
A
Oh, I don't think she fell in love. I don't think she fell in love. I think she just finally was like, whatever.
- [60:35]
B
I mean, oh, the romance.
- [60:37]
A
Exactly. I feel like because she actually did get married in second age 1000, it almost rules out the idea that she'd been married so unmarried so long. So I kind of feel like the first one's the most likely, but I think the second one is the most realistic in terms of her personality, because she absolutely would have been like, yeah.
- [61:01]
B
They definitely fit her personality better.
- [61:04]
A
Yeah, I agree.
- [61:09]
B
I am your host, Stassi Schroeder. Welcome to Tell Me Lies, the official podcast. What's the most unhinged thing of season three? Steven. Because he's so evil.
- [61:19]
A
I do think he is misunderstood.
- [61:21]
B
You see everyone face consequences. It's intoxicating. The writers just know how to trick. Yeah. There's always a twist in the so nothing you would expect Tell Me Lies, the official podcast, January 6th and stream the new season of Tell Me Lies January 13th on Hulu and Hulu on Disney.
- [61:40]
A
Kraft Mac and Cheese is better than 90s hip hop.
- [61:43]
B
We'll remind you of your childhood without.
- [61:45]
A
Making you feel incredibly old. Kraft Mac and Cheese Best Thing Ever.
- [62:00]
B
Now we told you about the amazing PPP community after our earlier break, and if you're a part of that community and you want to enjoy something even more special, come and join the Fellowship of the Podcast on Patreon. You get to be in the best discord community around, one that includes host hangouts and even live episode recordings.
- [62:18]
A
There's something like 60 or 70 people listening to us right now, or at least there were when we started. I can't promise you they're all still there.
- [62:24]
B
See if they're still here.
- [62:26]
A
Your support there, by the way, folks, is what enables me to work full time doing all of these shows. The prank supporting podcast, of course, but also today's Tolkien Times, the Rings of Power wrap up when it comes around and my streaming show, the PPP plays. When you join, you can also get things like episode post scripts, ad free episodes, free merch, and a lot more.
- [62:45]
B
And you can join the Questions after Nightfall episodes or even appear as a guest in the north wing. Go to patreon.com prancingponypod to show your support and join the Fellowship of the Podcast.
- [62:57]
A
And don't forget to rate and review on Apple Podcasts and Spotify. And please recommend us to your friends. And of course you can do that directly on Spotify. Now you can just share the show with your friends. Sarah. Let's move on. I can't believe we're nearing the end of this. We got two more readings, so take us away.
- [63:16]
B
However this may be, the story is clear that Uncalime did not desire love love, nor did she wish for a son, and she said, must I become like Queen Almarian and dote upon him? Her life with Halakar was unhappy, and she begrudged him her son Anarion, and there was strife between them. Thereafter she sought to subject him, claiming to be the owner of his land, and forbidding him to dwell upon it for she would not, as she said, have her husband, a farm steward. From this time comes the last tale that is recorded of those unhappy things For Ancalime would let none of her women wed, and although for fear of her, most were restrained. They came from the country about, and had lovers whom they wished to marry, but Halakar in secret arranged for them to be wedded. And he declared that he would give a last feast at his own house before he left it it. To this feast he invited Ancalime, saying that it was the house of his kindred and should be given a farewell of courtesy. Ancalim came, attended by all her women, for she did not care to be waited on by men. She found the house all lit and arrayed as for a great feast, and men of the household attired in garlands as for their weddings, and each with another garland in his hands for a bride. Come, said Halakar. The weddings are prepared and the bride chambers ready. But since it cannot be thought that we should ask the lady Ancalime, king's heir, to lie with a farm steward, then, alas, she must sleep alone to night. And Ancalome perforce remained there, for it was too far to ride back, nor would she go unattended. Neither men nor women hid their smiles, and Ancalome would not come to the feast but lay abed, listening to the laughter far off and thinking it aimed at herself. Next day she rode off in a cold rage and Halakar sent three men to escort her. Thus he was revenged, for she came never back to Emmerier, where the very sheep seemed to make scorn of her. But she pursued Halakar with hatred afterwards.
- [65:34]
A
Oh, this gets so nasty. If it is true that Arrondis should never have gotten married because Eldarion was never going to give up the sea, it quickly becomes clear that Ancalame also should never have gotten married because. Well, this whole reading. Yeah, she wants nothing to do with this.
- [65:53]
B
It's awful, isn't it? And it's sad. It's terribly, terribly sad because we know from our reading that Ancalome is the product of two really not good parents. They're both bad parents in their own way.
- [66:07]
A
Yes.
- [66:08]
B
They've both done their own damage on this girl. And here she is now, just. Just an object of mockery.
- [66:17]
A
Now it's just. It's awful because, I mean, how tragic is this? Not only does she not want love, and I can understand that because she never saw it modeled for her. Never. She never would have known what. What a mother and father, you know, what a husband and wife should look like in a home, because it never happened, but. So not only does she not want love, she doesn't even want a son. And I thought this was interesting and I wanted to get your take on this. The text says specifically she did not desire love, nor did she wish for a son. Now, she could have had a daughter and she would have been the heir. So why this specific thing? Why does it say she didn't desire a child? Why does it say she didn't desire a son?
- [66:57]
B
No, she didn't want another boy in her life at all. I think she might have been happier if it was a daughter who goodness knows, she would then have manipulated in the same way. She was manipulated. So.
- [67:08]
A
And in the same way her mother was manipulated. I mean, we talk about Irendis and how Nuneth played her like a fiddle in so many ways.
- [67:16]
B
Exactly. I think that the sentence sort of. It builds into the fact that she already has this son. She didn't wish for him. She didn't want him.
- [67:26]
A
How awful must that be for Anarion to know that your mother didn't want you?
- [67:31]
B
I'm sure that she didn't hide that.
- [67:32]
A
Oh, I'm sure she didn't. I mean, and it becomes pretty obvious when you grow up, get married, have kids, and she mistreats your children, as we'll see later. But, I mean, for him to know his entire life that he was unwanted and unloved. And I'm going to say this not to excuse her behavior, because nothing excuses it, but she grew up, in many ways, feeling that exact same way. A sense of abandonment. It's just awful.
- [68:00]
B
This is why we talk about generational trauma.
- [68:03]
A
Yeah, it's exactly what's happening here. And she'll continue it as she does to Anarion and then even further to.
- [68:11]
B
Yeah, we'll see that later, won't we? How she passes it on.
- [68:14]
A
So beautiful.
- [68:15]
B
It's also really interesting to note one of the reasons here about not wanting a son. She doesn't want to become like Queen Almarian and dote upon him.
- [68:25]
A
Him. Ooh, yeah.
- [68:27]
B
You mean love your child.
- [68:30]
A
Maybe.
- [68:30]
B
I mean, I know that. I know that Queen Al Marion has.
- [68:33]
A
Indulged Aldarion a bit, and she does. She also indulged on Cal.
- [68:38]
B
And Cal. Exactly. She was the recipient of that kind of love. While it's possible she's only parroting what her mother has said about Al Marion doting on Aldarion, which is. That's quite likely. It sounds to me like maybe she's seen her doting upon her son even as he is king.
- [68:57]
A
I can imagine that that sounds like who she is. You know, we've seen that throughout, from when he was young and doing things that Mineldra was unhappy about. And Omarion was kind of like essentially you know, don't be too hard of the boy, you know.
- [69:09]
B
Yeah. Let him do what he wants.
- [69:10]
A
Yeah, you know. Exactly.
- [69:12]
B
Yeah. It's all different ways of being a not great parent.
- [69:16]
A
Yeah. Me Ned is one example and Omarion was another.
- [69:20]
B
Yeah. There's so many different ways of damaging your child. Goodness knows, those of us who are parents. Parents know that that is a tripwire that stands in front of you.
- [69:27]
A
I was going to say it's. It's almost impossible not to. Your job is just to damage them as little as possible, pretty much.
- [69:33]
B
And preferably not damage them in the same way that you were damaged.
- [69:36]
A
Yeah, exactly. Yeah. Avoiding that generational stuff for sure. But, yeah, this is. It's just really tragic and, you know, given her lack of desire for love, no interest in having kids or at least no interest in having a son, and then her earlier statement that she would prefer to marry no man. Is it a shock to anybody at all that her married life is described here as unhappy?
- [69:56]
B
No. Perhaps she should have stuck with that unair bloke.
- [69:59]
A
Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I'm surprised that even that third option that we talked about earlier, where she waited to get married until the dad changed the law to not require getting married, but then she got married just to avoid him becoming king if she were to die childless. Why does she care if she dies childless? Well, I mean, does she hate Soronto that much?
- [70:24]
B
But of course, because we don't have the full narrative, we don't know why. I mean, if we got the full narrative, maybe Soronto is this horrid little nasty person, said she very carefully with her language, who, you know, picks at her and pokes at her constantly and tells her she's not good enough to be the king's heir and I should be the king's heir, because why you a king's heir? You're just a girl now.
- [70:46]
A
I'm picturing him like. Like Lord Farquaad from Shrek or something. Yes, yes.
- [70:51]
B
Oh, yes, that would be perfect.
- [70:53]
A
But I don't think Sonto's like that. I mean, well, we have no evidence that he is. No. But, yeah, she clearly doesn't like him if that's the case. But part of me wonders, like, why. Just stick with this. Your dad has already changed the rule about you having to give up the scepter if you're not married so you can stay single. And so what if you die without an heir? So what by that time, as we'll find out later, by that time, realistically, Sorrento is going to be dead because he's 70 years older than you to begin with, and women live longer than men in numenor. Do the math. You're going to be fine. It'll be his kid. Or cry it out loud. It'll probably be his grandkid. So just don't get married. I just want.
- [71:35]
B
Please, please don't get married. Yes. Yeah. Alas, the story is not listening to us.
- [71:41]
A
No, no. This is like the entire story of Aeldaria and Arendes repeated, but in short, court.
- [71:46]
B
Yeah. And that, I think, is part of the point, actually, isn't it?
- [71:50]
A
Yeah.
- [71:51]
B
Yeah. But back to the story. Not only does she begrudge her husband her son, and I wonder why. Because she didn't want him herself.
- [71:59]
A
No.
- [71:59]
B
But there was conflict between them from then on.
- [72:02]
A
Yeah.
- [72:03]
B
And the son was born in second age 1003, which is three years into their marriage.
- [72:09]
A
And that's. It's a long marriage because she lives a long time.
- [72:12]
B
Yeah.
- [72:13]
A
I also found this really disturbing. She, in my opinion, abused her authority as queen, claiming to own the land that he lived on, that he worked on, and then also refusing to allow him to live there because, hey, I own it. I'm the queen. I own everything. But also dismissing his status, like, I can't have my husband be a, you know, a sheep herder. What? You come from that part of the country. That's. That's who you are.
- [72:38]
B
That's who you are. I know. This is just spiteful. It is, yeah. This is her wielding power, but very much in the way she would have seen her father wielding power against her.
- [72:50]
A
Mother in that long attempt to defeat Horrendous. That's exactly what I'm thinking, too.
- [72:55]
B
Yeah. She's just gonna defeat her husband. He's a clever, clever guy. The way that he actually twists this around.
- [73:04]
A
He's good at this. Yes.
- [73:06]
B
She is the one ultimately, with the power. She can take everything away from him.
- [73:10]
A
And she pretty much does. Yeah.
- [73:12]
B
Yeah. So we then get a story that pretty much encapsulates their relationship. What the text says is, and this is so sad, the last tale that is recorded of those unhappy things.
- [73:24]
A
Isn't it?
- [73:25]
B
And it starts with Ancalame controlling the women in her house. She will not let them marry.
- [73:32]
A
That's just. You've got to imagine the turnover is pretty high. I mean, fine, I quit. I mean, but you probably can't do that so easily.
- [73:42]
B
No, probably not. You're in service to the queen, right? Yeah. You can't just turn in your papers and Walk off.
- [73:48]
A
No. And you wonder why she's doing this. But it's clearly a combination of her mom's teaching.
- [73:54]
B
Yes.
- [73:55]
A
Which we looked at last episode. Or episode before. I can't remember now, now. And her own bitterness towards Halakar and the whole idea of marriage in the first place. She is soured on the concept.
- [74:07]
B
Oh yes, absolutely. I would add on top of that, that if her women get married, then their attention is divided and she would want the attention all on her. She's the center of that little universe.
- [74:21]
A
She's the center of her universe for sure. I wonder, and I'd have to look back. Was this something that Arrendus did as well? Or at least primarily did. We know she surrounded herself with women in her household. She didn't want men there and the men had to live, you know, at the house, far, far down the hill. We're not told it explicitly, but it sounds like she also did not employ any married women.
- [74:41]
B
It's not explicitly said. As you just pointed out. We do get to hear that the men live down the hill. They live in the huts or down on the farms or something like that. So it doesn't say that the women are not married, but they cannot, if they are Marri. Have their family within the household.
- [74:58]
A
Oh yeah.
- [74:58]
B
It's only the women allowed in the house. So I wonder if Horrendis just wouldn't allow them to be with their family in the house. But. And Calime has taken it. That one.
- [75:11]
A
That's what I was thinking. Right. Exactly. Okay. You get married. I'm not going to stop you. But you can't. Your husband can't be here. Your kids can't be here either.
- [75:18]
B
Yeah, which is controlling enough, isn't it?
- [75:21]
A
Bad enough? But yeah, this is.
- [75:22]
B
Then Calimeh dials it up to 11.
- [75:24]
A
Exactly. But of course these women. Women aren't deeply affected by generational trauma. And they'd like to move on with their lives and get married. So this is where Halakar's. Exactly. So Halacar is. Because not every guy is Eldarion or even Halacar.
- [75:39]
B
Not all men.
- [75:42]
A
Glad you said it. I'm not gonna ever say that Halicar secretly sets things up for them to get married. Now. He is clever.
- [75:49]
B
Yes, he is.
- [75:50]
A
And I know that he's getting his revenge, but he's also doing something. He's doing a good deed as well as get his revenge.
- [75:57]
B
Although I do wonder what the fallout from this would be. Oh, she'd probably fire the lot of them.
- [76:03]
A
Seriously. But at least they're all married now. He sets them up for this big fancy party and a group wedding. They're all going to be at his house before he has to leave it again. This is a house. That is his house on his land. But he is having to leave it at her order because she's the queen. Oh, boy.
- [76:22]
B
I mean, technically, she could throw him out of every single place he decides to live in.
- [76:27]
A
She could. Oh, you've settled down here. You're out everywhere. He could have to get on a boat and leave.
- [76:34]
B
Yeah, well, I mean, ultimately, what do you do if you're. If your wife is this bad?
- [76:41]
A
If the sovereign is telling you you can't live anywhere around here.
- [76:44]
B
Yeah, yeah. It's a bit like she saw her father decide to totally defeat Arrendis and then she said, hold my beer.
- [76:56]
A
Very much. Hold my beer, dad. This is. This gets nasty.
- [77:00]
B
Yeah, it really does. And of course, Halakar invites his wife, saying that the family home that she is kicking him out of and claims to own it should get a royal send off.
- [77:12]
A
So he's about to send her off.
- [77:14]
B
Oh boy. She shows up with her whimsical women. I mean, like her mum. She doesn't want any manservants.
- [77:19]
A
No.
- [77:19]
B
And the place is ready for a feast. Uh oh, not just a regular feast, but a wedding feast with garlands for brides and grooms and I would just have loved to have seen her face when she saw that.
- [77:33]
A
Oh.
- [77:35]
B
Oh, boy.
- [77:36]
A
I'm pretty sure Halicar was looking straight at her when she noticed.
- [77:40]
B
I think he had that little amused smile on his face.
- [77:42]
A
I think he did. And he immediately says, what's up? He's not hiding anything.
- [77:46]
B
No.
- [77:46]
A
Where's she gonna go now? We're way out in the midd middle of the country. The weddings are ready. We've even got, you know, nice private rooms for the newlyweds, all set up, you know, except for you, of course. You couldn't possibly be seen sleeping with a mere farm steward. So off to bed with you. Alone. If you're cold, call for fire.
- [78:06]
B
Oh, some parallels.
- [78:08]
A
He doesn't say it, but man, is that not.
- [78:10]
B
It's built in.
- [78:10]
A
It's right there on the nose. You can't miss it.
- [78:14]
B
No. Oh, boy. We forget sometimes. Not very often, but we forget sometimes just how clever Tolkien is when he writes a narrative.
- [78:22]
A
He's so good at this stuff.
- [78:24]
B
He really is good. He's great at characterisation. He also. He can weave a story.
- [78:30]
A
Yes.
- [78:31]
B
And this is why my heart is Broken that this story is not finished. I know it's not a lovely, happy, jolly story.
- [78:36]
A
No. But it's a really incredibly well written story and I would have loved to have seen the finish of it.
- [78:40]
B
It's a great story. Can you imagine the film?
- [78:43]
A
Oh my goodness. Oh, this would be a fun, fun movie series. Absolutely.
- [78:48]
B
Wouldn't it? Though? Alas, that's not likely to happen. No, sadly not. So just like it was too far for Eldarion to ride back to Armenelos all those years ago.
- [78:58]
A
Another parallel.
- [79:00]
B
It's too far for Ankalime to go back either. So she has to stay. And it is awkward because it's a party. Everyone is having fun, everyone is smiling except Ankalame, who won't even, even show up to the feast. She is not pleased.
- [79:16]
A
No, she is. So we are not amused. We are not amused. She's so self absorbed, like her dad, that she thinks all of the laughter. This is a wedding party. People are having fun. But she thinks all the laughter is directed towards her now.
- [79:34]
B
You know what? If that's what you think, take a look in the miracles.
- [79:37]
A
Yes, there is. That's a.
- [79:39]
B
Maybe you've done something, something to deserve that laughter being directed.
- [79:43]
A
Really think that. But I mean, come on, these people just having fun.
- [79:46]
B
It's their wedding.
- [79:47]
A
Yeah, it's their wedding times 10 or 12 or however many people are getting married. It's wonderful.
- [79:52]
B
It's quite the group thing.
- [79:54]
A
Yeah, this is. This is a big party. And so the next morning she takes off in a cold rage. And you talked about earlier how Tolkien connects things. Right? The idea of. Yeah, he doesn't say, say if you're cold, call for fire, but that's clearly what he's referencing. Yes, this seems to be another reference, but to both the parents. Because how many times have we heard Arendus described as cold? And how often do we see Aeldarion rage? This is like the worst of both worlds here.
- [80:25]
B
Yes, it is. And this is the. This is the tragedy of Ancalame, that she could have inherited the good points of both of her parents because they both had good points. We had those points pointed out to us. Instead, this child inherits the worst possible character traits from her parents.
- [80:45]
A
Oh, goodness. I try to imagine her inheriting the strength of character and the love of the island and the desire to live in the present that her mom had. And inheriting the generosity and the readiness to mirth and even the adventuring that her dad. I mean, there are so many good traits in both of these people.
- [81:06]
B
She could have been that. And instead, it's the worst of both. A little from column A, a little from column B, and neither of them good choices. I mean, it's just. It's very, very sad, actually.
- [81:17]
A
It is.
- [81:17]
B
It's deeply sad because she's terribly unhappy in amongst all of this.
- [81:22]
A
You know, she hardly slept, just like. Just like her mom hardly slept the night that Eldarion showed up.
- [81:27]
B
There are so many parallels here. It's so. So well done. But the. The. That's not the end of it, because.
- [81:34]
A
No, no, he's very clever.
- [81:35]
B
One last. One last shot in. He sends an escort with her, but it's an escort of three men.
- [81:41]
A
That was so on purpose.
- [81:44]
B
I mean, that, of course, is quite intentional. And I think this tells us the women are not returning with you.
- [81:49]
A
No.
- [81:49]
B
They've got married now.
- [81:50]
A
Yeah. You now have a smaller household.
- [81:54]
B
You really do. And we're told that thus he was revenged.
- [81:59]
A
Yeah.
- [81:59]
B
So it's clearly a deeply intentional act and it is planned to cause maximum harm. None of this is healthy.
- [82:07]
A
No, he's getting back at her because for years he's been manipulated, he's been pushed. He's having to leave his land and his home because of her. So of course he's going to get revenge.
- [82:19]
B
Yes. And even though she doesn't want their child, she won't let him have him.
- [82:23]
A
No. Even though she. Exactly. Even though she didn't want a son. Even though she doesn't want a son. Son. She still begrudges him their son. Because I don't want to give him anything.
- [82:32]
B
Yes.
- [82:33]
A
Nothing.
- [82:33]
B
Yes. It's just awful.
- [82:36]
A
It really is. And so now we're told she never goes back to Emeria. And this is another one of those deeply sad moments, right, that she feels like the sheep. The sound of the sheep is intended to mock her, but man, just go back a few readings. She loved dearly the downlands of her home. And never, as she said in her life could she sleep at peace, far from the sound of sheep. And that's.
- [82:58]
B
Even. This is taken from her. All the possibilities of happiness in her.
- [83:02]
A
Life, all that peace, it's just gone. And it's so deeply sad.
- [83:07]
B
It really is. And after this, she pursues her estranged husband with hatred. Oh, man. I mean, this, of course, is. We've just talked about how she inherits the worst possible things from her parents. This is an Aldarion trait.
- [83:24]
A
This is. Yeah.
- [83:25]
B
Pursuing the. The ex with vindictiveness.
- [83:29]
A
Exactly. Arendus is cold. She doesn't hate Eldarion. She's cold. She doesn't.
- [83:33]
B
She's just done.
- [83:34]
A
She's done. Right. And she disappears and doesn't want anything to do with him anymore.
- [83:38]
B
Yes. And you get the feeling that would be Halitan.
- [83:41]
A
Yeah. She's not trying to hurt him. And that feels like. Exactly. And then. But Aldarion, the long continued attempt to defeat Erendis. Like, why? Man, man, You've. You've already defeated her. But that's what's going on here.
- [83:55]
B
It's just. Vindictive.
- [83:56]
A
Yes, that's the word. It's.
- [83:58]
B
But of course. Yeah, of course. And Calumet has seen this modeled for her.
- [84:03]
A
Yeah.
- [84:04]
B
So she now knows how she's supposed to act towards the ex. That.
- [84:07]
A
Because she's the one in power.
- [84:08]
B
Yes, exactly.
- [84:09]
A
That's why this is such an Eldarian thing. Because.
- [84:11]
B
Yes, because she can. She can do this.
- [84:14]
A
Exactly. Arguably, her mom might have done the same thing had she had power.
- [84:18]
B
Had she had the power.
- [84:19]
A
But she didn't. And Calloway's like, well, I've got power, so I don't have to be this victim. I can be the perpetrator. I can be Eldarion in this.
- [84:29]
B
But can we imagine just for a moment. It's a throwaway line. She pursues her estranged husband with hatred.
- [84:36]
A
So sweet.
- [84:37]
B
Just imagine the ways in which she could make his life hell.
- [84:41]
A
Oh, she's the queen. She's the sovereign. She could do anything she wants to him.
- [84:44]
B
Exactly.
- [84:45]
A
Like we talked about with Aeldaria. And even as the King's heir, if he wanted to take Ancalome from her, he could. Even Arendus knew that. Like when she's writing to the King. Unless it also be your will King to take back your gift of my house.
- [85:00]
B
Because she knows he could.
- [85:02]
A
That's because she knows he could. But he doesn't.
- [85:05]
B
He doesn't. Because I think he was a little bit more worried about the optics.
- [85:09]
A
Yes. I don't think it's any. This wasn't pity or kindness or.
- [85:13]
B
She's. Her parents. Ramped up to. Like I said, 11.
- [85:17]
A
11.
- [85:18]
B
And it's terrible.
- [85:19]
A
It is awful.
- [85:20]
B
Okay, well, is this our last reading?
- [85:23]
A
This is 11 episodes and some 24 hours of conversation.
- [85:29]
B
Oh, my goodness. And no bow of returning to bring us back to this.
- [85:33]
A
Not even an eagle with a golden beak?
- [85:35]
B
No, not even. All right, over to you then, for our last reading.
- [85:40]
A
Of the later years of Tar Aldarien. Nothing can now be said save that he seems to have continued his voyages to Middle Earth and more than once left ankalame as his regent. His last voyage took place about the end of the first millennium of the Second Age. And in the year 1075, Ancalame became the first ruling queen of Numenor. It is told that after the death of Tar al Darien in 1098, Taran Calime neglected all her father's policies and gave no further aid to Gil Galad in Lindon. Her son Anarion, who was afterwards the eighth ruler of Numenor, first had two daughters. They disliked and feared the queen and refused the heirship, remaining unwed since the queen would not in revenge allow them to marry. Anarion's son Surian was born. The last passed and was the ninth ruler of Numenor, of Orendus. It is said that when old age came upon her, neglected by Ancalome and in bitter loneliness, she longed once more for Aldarian. And learning that he was gone from Numenor on what proved to be his last voyage, but that he was soon expected to return, she left to Meria at last and journeyed unrecognized and unknown to the Haven of Romenna. There it seems she met her fate. But only the words Irendis perished in water in the year 985 remain to suggest how it came to pass.
- [87:18]
B
Well, there's a cheery ending.
- [87:22]
A
That is just so bleak.
- [87:24]
B
It really is, isn't it? I mean, oh, I know we're going to pull apart that last sentence, but oh boy. So we start this last reading with what little can be told about the reign of Tar Aldarion. So unsurprisingly he continues making voyages to Middle Earth, leaving his heir to be his regent on more than one occasion. I do wonder what the council would have felt the first time this took place. Because this is the first time a woman would have had royal authority.
- [87:55]
A
Yeah, that must have been quite a shock. Like wait a minute, you're in charge while your dad's gone, you know. Remember when Meneldor gave up the scepter?
- [88:08]
B
Yes.
- [88:09]
A
Was the only one who said he's ready for it. That's great. I kind of wonder what he would have thought here. How bitter was the wedding? How bitter was the marriage already? Yes, because by this time that's getting. That's getting nasty, I'm sure. So he would have been very uncomfortable.
- [88:27]
B
Oh, I wonder what papa in law thought.
- [88:30]
A
Soronto would have been uncomfortable at the very least.
- [88:36]
B
Yeah, I mean, I don't have any confidence in Ankalume being any good as regent. Because we hear that as queen.
- [88:47]
A
Yeah.
- [88:47]
B
There are some things that she did that were not fantastic. No, but the council would have had no choice.
- [88:52]
A
That's true. No, they would not have had a choice. I realized, though, I just made a mistake by talking about her being married. She actually didn't get married until the year 1000. He last sailed around the year 1000. So she actually would have been regent before the wedding. But still, that would have been super, super awkward. Yeah.
- [89:06]
B
Yes, indeed.
- [89:08]
A
But we do get to that last sailing, which was about the end of the first millennium. We're not given an exact year. And that's interesting because. Because it makes me wonder, was he on the island when his daughter got married in the year 1000? Would he have missed her wedding by sailing?
- [89:23]
B
Would it surprise anybody if he had?
- [89:26]
A
No, it would not. I mean, talk about the cherry on top. For sure would be dad missing the wedding because he missed everything else, or.
- [89:33]
B
Dad not even being invited to the wedding because dad couldn't be bothered. It's not like they were close emotionally.
- [89:42]
A
Not like she's close emotionally to anybody.
- [89:44]
B
No, no, indeed. And I wonder what he thought about his daughter's choice of husband as well.
- [89:52]
A
That's a good point. I mean, I think he would have liked him at first because he's the son of my friend, right? The guy that supported me receiving the scepter early and a very trusted counselor. So I think he would have liked. That would be interesting to then if. Because he must have watched as their marriage turned south south, because he still reigned for a long time after her wedding.
- [90:13]
B
But again, you have to be there to watch that happening. So I'm not sure how much he was.
- [90:18]
A
And he. Well, he wasn't sailing. At least we know that because he stopped sailing. But. And that's interesting. We'll get to that. Let's go back to the whole timeline, kind of broad picture. He was born in 700. He last sailed around the age of 300. Right. Because he was back by a thousand. That means that he spent. Spent almost the final century of his life. A guy who did not like being on land all that much, spent the last hundred years of his life on Numenor. And we. We will come back to that when we get to the very end of the story, because I think it plays a role.
- [90:48]
B
Yeah, I agree. And with the end of his natural life approaching, Eldarion steps down and hands the scepter to his daughter in 1075. Now he will live to 1098. So 23 years later. Now, recall when we discussed Minnelda's resigning of the scepter early. He was only 340, and he lived for 60 years after resigning the scepter.
- [91:11]
A
Which is even more evidence that it was early. But if you compare that to the preceding two generations, Tar Amandil was 398 when he gave the scepter to his son and lived 11 years after that. Tara Lendil was 390 when he resigned and lived for 13 more years. And then here we have Tar al Dayan, who's 375 and lives for 23 more years. I mean, it does still seem to be a touch early compared to those earlier generations, but far more typical when you compare it to Meneldor's decision. It's interesting because he must have trusted that his daughter would make good decisions.
- [91:49]
B
Well, it's not like he had any choice now because he had put her in that position.
- [91:54]
A
But he could have reigned for another 10 or 15 years to get to the point where he. At least 10 years. Right. I mean, these guys only lived 11 and 13 years after they're surrendering the scepter. He lived for 23 more years. So it's not like he felt the end of his life approaching. This wasn't like, no, you know, Aragorn saying, it's time for me to go lay down, you know, prepare me a bed. I'm. I'm done. So he does sort of step down a tiny bit early and just not compared to Meneldor. So I wonder what his thought process was there. But, yeah, we just have no clue.
- [92:26]
B
It's hard to say because we, of course, we just don't get any textual insights.
- [92:30]
A
None at all. Because this is the part that is not finished at all. This is just notes and jottings, you know.
- [92:37]
B
Of course, by this point, Arendus would be dead, wouldn't she?
- [92:41]
A
By that point, yeah. Yeah, because she dies in 985.
- [92:46]
B
At least he doesn't have to worry about pursuing his wife with hatred anymore at that point.
- [92:50]
A
No. She actually dies 15 years before her daughter gets married.
- [92:54]
B
Yeah.
- [92:54]
A
So her daughter's only 12. Oh, goodness.
- [92:58]
B
Yeah.
- [92:59]
A
Yeah.
- [93:00]
B
So we also get a bit of a glimpse at Tar and Calime's reign. So she inherits the scepter. At 1075, she's 202. Aldarion was 183 when he inherited the scepter. So she's not as young as her father was.
- [93:17]
A
Correct. But it is not until after eldarion dies in 1098, 23 years later, later, that she is said to then Neglect all her father's policies. And that's interesting because it suggests to me that even though he is, you know, no longer king, whatever they call their emeritus. Yes.
- [93:37]
B
So he's king emeritus.
- [93:38]
A
So he's king emeritus. And I don't know if that's an official position, but, you know, he's the retired king. He still wields some authority or some influence. At least not authority, but influence. Because she seems to have been afraid to change his policies until after good old dad was dead.
- [93:55]
B
Yes, he probably had a lot of influence still amongst the Venturers, of course.
- [93:59]
A
Oh, yes, that's for sure. Yeah.
- [94:01]
B
Yeah. So, yeah. You. You wonder. Because we don't get a heck of a lot of insight into their relationship later in life like this. But. Yes. Maybe she just didn't fancy that confrontation. Because I suspect it would have been quite the confrontation.
- [94:17]
A
Yeah.
- [94:17]
B
If she had just said, yeah, you know what? We're not sending any ships anymore. Because I'm done with that dad.
- [94:21]
A
By the way, I did the math wrong. She wasn't 12. She's 112 when her mom died.
- [94:29]
B
I know I'm not good at numbers.
- [94:30]
A
But it was 873 to 985, not 873 to 885. But it was still before her wedding because her wedding wasn't until 1000. So.
- [94:40]
B
Right.
- [94:40]
A
I just did the math wrong in my head. I remembered the year of 73 to 85, but I'd forgotten the whole previous century.
- [94:48]
B
Yes.
- [94:48]
A
Sorry about that, folks.
- [94:50]
B
And of course, because she's of the line of Elros, her lifespan would be longer. So it didn't matter.
- [94:56]
A
What.
- [94:56]
B
She waited until a thousand when she got married. So.
- [94:58]
A
Right. She was a little over a hundred. So, you know. Yeah.
- [95:02]
B
Nevertheless, because we're. We're back to talking about Aeldari on his policies being neglected after he died. That neglect is precisely what she does. She cuts off a to Gil Galad. And this is perhaps amplified by the length of her reign as well, which it isn't mentioned here in the line of Elros. We learn that she reigned for 205 years. And that is longer than any ruler after Elros.
- [95:28]
A
That's wild.
- [95:29]
B
I mean, she was just hanging on.
- [95:31]
A
She sure was. That is a long time to reign for 205 years.
- [95:36]
B
It really is. Now, combine her long reign with the fact that for 180 of those years she cut off aid to the elves. That means her decision has carried a lot of weight.
- [95:46]
A
Oh, yeah. I mean, it's gonna have that sort of momentum if you will. Right. I mean, why change what's been the way it's been for 180 years?
- [95:54]
B
Yes.
- [95:55]
A
Especially when you realize that it wouldn't have been. I mean, that is now. No aid for longer than there was aid.
- [96:01]
B
Yes. So it's become policy to just not bolt.
- [96:04]
A
Yeah, absolutely.
- [96:05]
B
And if there's no aid, then maybe there is no communication, in which case they don't know what's going on over there.
- [96:11]
A
Because she doesn't care what's going on over there.
- [96:13]
B
No, I don't think she cares at all. She's twisted her mother's love for Numenor, you know, like Numenor first kind of thing. But she's twisted that, hasn't she?
- [96:23]
A
She really has. It's become, you know, an isolationist.
- [96:27]
B
Yes. So that she doesn't care about what's happening outside of Numenor. It's all about just focusing on Numenor, which. I mean, there's a balance.
- [96:36]
A
I'm getting a little turgon image in my head of the way he treats Gondolin after the Dagor Bragalach, you know?
- [96:44]
B
Yeah, just shut it down.
- [96:45]
A
Just shut it down. And then, you know, he hears news of the fall of Doriath and the fall of Nargothron and he's like, yeah, we're not getting out of here. We're not doing anything.
- [96:54]
B
But it gets worse, doesn't it?
- [96:55]
A
It does. It does. We get a picture of her now. Now, as a grandmother, and it is not a pretty one. She refuses to allow her granddaughters to marry. The text says, in revenge. What did they do? I mean, okay, is this revenge against Halakar? Is this revenge against her mom, her dad? Or is this. Because the way it's written is kind of unclear. Did the refusing the heirship come first? Is this. The line says they disliked and feared the queen and refused the airship, remaining unwed, since the queen would not, in revenge, allow them to marry.
- [97:30]
B
I think it's because of the heirship. She. I think she would have preferred a queen to follow her.
- [97:35]
A
No, I'm sure she would have.
- [97:37]
B
Yes. No, men, you know, why would she. And we know who she is and what she's like. Why would she not want a queen to follow her? But this is her own fault. She's alienated her own granddaughters. They don't want anything to do with her or the September. So, yeah, honestly, I think the revenge is because they decide they're going to refuse the scepter. But what a revenge to take.
- [97:59]
A
I know this is so cruel.
- [98:01]
B
It is, it is. And it's a nasty, nasty thing to do because it also takes any decision away from her own son about what might happen to his kids.
- [98:11]
A
Absolutely. Oh, it's heartbreaking.
- [98:14]
B
Yeah. And this would have been a lifelong impact, too. In a normal world, you just think, well, you know, Granny will die and we can just get. Get married then. But she lived a long time as queen. She didn't step down until 1280.
- [98:28]
A
1280.
- [98:29]
B
Yes.
- [98:30]
A
We are not told when the granddaughters were born, but we do know that their younger brother, the one who would eventually become king after Anarion Surian, was born in 1174. Now, if we assume the typical age gap of prior Numenorean heirs, like we look at the, The. The years that kings had their children as recorded, we're looking at birth dates somewhere between like 11:30 to 11:50 for the first granddaughter, which would make her 130 to 150 years old. When grandma dies, that's. Or when she steps down, because then she wouldn't have authority as queen. Yeah, that's a Numenorean equivalent to 42 to 46.
- [99:09]
B
Yes, that is. That is too late.
- [99:11]
A
Too late, too late. With the second granddaughter a little bit closer, maybe around 1160 plus or minus five years. But that would make her like 115 to 125, which is 39 to 41 in both cases. We're talking about making sure these women stay single well beyond what could possibly be done here. That's cruel.
- [99:30]
B
Right. So let's return to the rules, if you like, around who inherits.
- [99:39]
A
This was interesting.
- [99:40]
B
If we go back to the granddaughters refusing the heirship, that's slightly odd. Maybe because they had a brother. And the law, as changed by Tar Aldarion, only allows the eldest daughter to become the heir if there are no sons. But I wonder if they refused the heirship before their youngest brother was born.
- [100:00]
A
He was born in 1174, so they would have had to turn it down. The oldest one would have had more time. She would have had. She might have turned it down when she was in her 20s or 30s. But the younger one probably was born only 15 years before. So what, does she turn it down when she's 10? Yeah, and then you'll never get married. I mean, I wonder, like, did she change the law?
- [100:25]
B
Did she, like, but it doesn't say that.
- [100:28]
A
No, it doesn't. It doesn't. But.
- [100:30]
B
And why change the law but then have revenge against the granddaughter?
- [100:34]
A
Yeah, yeah, that's a fair point. Like, why you would just. Instead, you would be like, hey, you get to be Queen.
- [100:40]
B
But I mean, maybe the eldest one said, yeah, no thanks. And the youngest one said what?
- [100:46]
A
She said, yeah, exactly, in the line of Elros. But we're actually not told that they refused the heirship, just that they refused the scepter. But the scepter would have ever even passed to them.
- [100:58]
B
No, because they had a younger brother.
- [101:00]
A
The. This is the. Again, this is partly a result of this story never getting finished. Like, yes, Tolkien changed what the law was, and then he changed what the law was again. Because what we read in the Lord of the Rings appendix is that it's, you know, straight up absolute primogeniture. That's just confusing.
- [101:18]
B
Yeah, it is a little confusing, but as you say, it's probably to do with Tolkien not finishing it. But we do know that he liked to change his mind about various things, and if he had a chance to finish, finish it, maybe he could have settled on what exactly the inheritance rules were. Yeah, but because we have lots of different versions, it makes it slightly confusing for us. Right, and it just continues to be confusing. Yeah, because also, of course, it would have been the eldest to pass first and then the second daughter, but unless she changed the law too, to go to absolute primogeniture instead of male preference primogeniture, none of this would have been an option.
- [101:56]
A
Absolutely.
- [101:57]
B
So it's all kind of confusing for me anyway.
- [102:01]
A
No, me too. Trust me. Finally, though, and tragically, we get a closing paragraph on Arrandis herself.
- [102:07]
B
Oh, this is so sad, this paragraph.
- [102:09]
A
It really, really is. We read that this all happened when old age came upon her. So once again, a reminder, folks, her lifespan was really shorter.
- [102:19]
B
Yes, much, much shorter. You can certainly read a very tragic end to her death in 985. And we're going to get to that. But even if that were the case, she is clearly past the age of vigor at this point.
- [102:33]
A
That's the thing, you know, I mean, when she felt old age come upon her, that's significant. This is not anything other than the ending of vigor. And we've talked about Numenoreans aging before the first 20 years like a normal human, and then things slow to down so much that each five years is equivalent to one of ours. Well, the last few years are like those first years. Once they get to the end of vigor, Tolkien says they would then pass quickly in about 10 years from health and vigor of mind to decrepitude and senility.
- [103:05]
B
Yep. And that's why the kings stepped down before then.
- [103:09]
A
Exactly.
- [103:10]
B
When they first started to get a sense of what Tolkien calls world weariness. It also explains why they only most of them live for like 10, 11, 12 years after they resign the scepter.
- [103:20]
A
Exactly.
- [103:21]
B
Because they resign it, they don't feel this coming on them.
- [103:24]
A
And the last thing you want to do is be senile on the throne.
- [103:28]
B
Yeah, of course, until we get further down the line and it first happens. But at this point, we haven't got that far. So the fact that old age has come upon horrendous strongly suggests that her time of vigor has passed at only 214 years of age.
- [103:43]
A
Sad.
- [103:44]
B
And in this, old age, having been ignored by her daughter, who's now over 100 years of age, has long been the King's heir, but is not yet married, she's kind of understandably lonely.
- [103:55]
A
She is. And look, we can obviously talk about how some of this, or even much of this is her fault. And it is. But what a deeply sad place to be.
- [104:07]
B
Yes, it really is.
- [104:08]
A
And honestly, despite the fact that we can say so much this is her fault, it is still a place she absolutely would not be were it not for Eldarion's actions.
- [104:16]
B
I have to agree with you.
- [104:19]
A
She does bear responsibility. We're not going to get away from that. But it's a but for sort of thing.
- [104:24]
B
Yeah. And you're right, I'm not going to take all responsibility away from Erendis. But I put most of the blame on Erendis for what she does to her daughter.
- [104:34]
A
Right.
- [104:35]
B
I put a lot less blame on her for what happens in the marriage. To me, Aldarion has done far more to damage that marriage.
- [104:44]
A
Yes.
- [104:45]
B
Because right up to the point where Ancalame is nine years old, Arendus is still looking for an out. She is looking for a way to forgive him and for things to work. She doesn't want to be in this toxicity anymore, but it just. Yeah, that does not happen. So. So when it comes to the marriage itself, I blame Aeldarion more than I blame Arendes.
- [105:10]
A
Yes, I do.
- [105:11]
B
When it comes to the damage done to Ancalame, then it's much more of a 50. 50. Yeah, they're both terrible.
- [105:17]
A
I agree.
- [105:19]
B
He's still king at this point. Eldarion. But he's off sailing. In fact, the text says it proved to be his last voyage. So this is the one that is near the end of the first millennium.
- [105:31]
A
Yeah, yeah. And it's wild that he ends up coming back and spends the entire rest of his Life almost a century back in Numenor. And I can't think it's because he's already old, because we talked about the end of Vigor comes and it's only, you know, there's still hardy, strong guys until that Vigor ends. I honestly think there's got to be a sense of guilt when Horrendous dies.
- [105:57]
B
Oh, I hope so.
- [105:58]
A
I hope so. I hope there's a sense of I can't leave. Or maybe it's a sense of, now that he sees his daughter married and turning into an awful person, I can't leave her as the Regent.
- [106:10]
B
Yeah.
- [106:10]
A
Maybe when this happens, right near the end of the first millennium, she does what she didn't do in 882, which is almost 100 years before she leaves her home in a marriage. And she goes. It seems like she goes in disguise, but I think, honestly, it's more like she didn't need a disguise. Nobody would have seen her in decades.
- [106:32]
B
Yeah. She wouldn't be recognized anyway.
- [106:34]
A
No. And she's nearing her old age. Right. Old age has come upon her, so she's going to be physically different. But she goes down to Romenna and it doesn't tell us what her motivations are. And I.
- [106:46]
B
Apart from desiring to see Aeldari on.
- [106:49]
A
Another show, she longed for him. And your heart just aches like after all he's done to you, I know you still want to see him one more time and just so sad. And you. You think almost she wants to greet him one more time and I want to see that. I want to see Tolkien finish the story and find out. What was she there to do? I don't think she was there to. To take her life.
- [107:16]
B
No, no, no. I don't think so either.
- [107:19]
A
Maybe that's what happened. That's one of the possible endings that we draw from. The tragic, tragic ending. Whether it's intentional or not, she perished in water. But that wasn't. Her purpose, was to. She wasn't going there to die. She was going there to see her husband.
- [107:35]
B
It's the timing of everything that makes me wonder, because we know that this is Eldarion's last voyage, and we know that it was towards the end of the millennium.
- [107:45]
A
Yeah. She doesn't know it's his last voyage.
- [107:47]
B
She doesn't know that. No, no, no. But what she has heard is that he's on the way back. But this is only 985.
- [107:55]
A
Yeah. How much longer was he gone?
- [107:57]
B
How much longer before Eldarion actually was going to return?
- [108:00]
A
Yeah.
- [108:01]
B
Because we don't actually know the year in which he did return.
- [108:04]
A
And once again, he's longer than he said he'd be.
- [108:08]
B
Yeah, yeah. And the sorrowful and tragic ending, it's kind of heartbreaking.
- [108:15]
A
It is absolutely heartbr.
- [108:17]
B
It says she met her fate there in Romana, but we don't have the exact details. But that last. That last bit, though, is so. Well, it's. It's terrible irony, isn't it?
- [108:28]
A
It is, yes. The sea. All of this. This whole time, it has been either I win or the sea wins. The sea wins.
- [108:37]
B
The sea wins, ultimately, because she perished in water. I'm guessing she didn't drown in the bath.
- [108:44]
A
No, no, I don't think she did. I mean, I'm thankful that Tolkien didn't explicitly say that she took her own life. I know that's a very possible ending here.
- [108:57]
B
I hope it's definitely a reading.
- [108:58]
A
It might even be the most likely one, but I sure hope it isn't. I don't read it that way. I read it as some sort of accidental death, but it's still just absolutely gutting to have this happen and so very, very sad. And.
- [109:14]
B
And that brings this happy, jolly tale to an end.
- [109:18]
A
That's right. Of the later years of Barlaman, nothing can now be said save that he seems to have continued his travels with the mailbag and more than once left Bob and Nob as his co regents. Sara, what does Bartleman have in his bag for us today?
- [109:32]
B
I'm just hoping that Bob and Nob were slightly better co regents, but.
- [109:35]
A
Okay, I think they might have been. Yes.
- [109:38]
B
So today, William H. In Missouri writes, it can be argued that the law should have been changed earlier, allowing Silmarien to become the first ruling queen of Numenor.
- [109:47]
A
Clearly he's been paying attention.
- [109:48]
B
Yes. But changing it now seems to have led to some very unfortunate circumstances. Is this an example of right change, wrong time? Especially given Aldarion's motivations for the change.
- [109:59]
A
Yes. Next.
- [110:02]
B
This is it. Yes. I mean, it should have gotten. We talked during this episode about how a circumstance had indeed arisen in which this tradition could have been questioned.
- [110:15]
A
What do you mean? It has never arisen. So, Warren, hello. I'm right here.
- [110:19]
B
Yes, exactly. And changing it now, I think that's got a lot to do with his motivation for that change.
- [110:28]
A
It's petty and bitter and vindictive. And it's got nothing to do with the better good of Numenor.
- [110:34]
B
No. Or equality or anything like that. It's got nothing to do with that.
- [110:39]
A
This is not Aldarian, is not a feminist deciding that women should be, you know, be able to ascend to the throne.
- [110:46]
B
Yes. Those impudent women.
- [110:49]
A
Oh, my goodness.
- [110:50]
B
Yeah. That's not Aeldarion the feminist.
- [110:52]
A
Oh, no. No, it's not. Oh, my goodness.
- [110:54]
B
So right change, wrong time. Yeah, but. But you know what? If you look at the line of monarchs in Numenor, there are a few queens. None of them are particularly great.
- [111:08]
A
No. Not until the last one. And she doesn't even get to sit on the throne. She gets it usurped.
- [111:13]
B
Exactly. I'm not sure what Tolkien is trying to say here.
- [111:17]
A
I know. I'm not comfortable if he's trying to say that queens, you know, monarchs should always be kings.
- [111:22]
B
I mean, there are a lot of bad kings.
- [111:25]
A
Oh, there are terrible kings.
- [111:27]
B
There are some terrible kings.
- [111:28]
A
He makes it very clear. We're talking genuinely evil kings.
- [111:31]
B
Oh, yeah. So it's not that he's picking out, singling out the women as being bad monarchs while all the men are just fabulous kings. Not at all.
- [111:39]
A
Far from that. Yeah.
- [111:40]
B
Oh, far from that. But there is not one queen that we're given that is a good queen. Apart from, as you say, Mirielle. Could have been Tar.
- [111:49]
A
Miriel. Yeah.
- [111:50]
B
But she had a good dad.
- [111:51]
A
She had a great dad. Tar Palantir here tried to turn the thing around and be like, we're going, you know, we're going to, you know, befriend the Eldar again. It was too late.
- [111:58]
B
But yes.
- [111:59]
A
Boy, there's so much Old Testament in that one.
- [112:02]
B
Oh, boy. Yes, I will lead my people out of Egypt, perhaps.
- [112:08]
A
But also, the whole idea of a good king saying, we've been going the wrong way, folks. We're going to turn around and do this right again. And then the evil kings come back.
- [112:16]
B
Yeah.
- [112:17]
A
You know, the next generation. It just doesn't take. Take long.
- [112:19]
B
Yes. So much to talk about with that. So, yes, William H. The answer is yes.
- [112:26]
A
The answer is indeed yes. Well, folks, thank you for joining us for another episode of the Prancing Pony podcast. Please join us again next week when James Tauber, the Sage of the south, joins me. And together we'll welcome a few of our patrons to join us for our 33rd questions after night.
- [112:42]
B
That's an auspicious number, isn't it? It?
- [112:44]
A
In the meantime, Sara, it has been a pleasure to have you host with me again this season. Four years straight now. Thank you.
- [112:50]
B
I'm amazed you put up with me for that long. I mean, really. Thank you. And thank you so much to the PPP community. I mean, all you folks in In Discord here have been so warm and welcoming. And to everybody out there in PPP world, thank you so much for, you know, listening. Really appreciate that.
- [113:09]
A
I do too.
- [113:10]
B
Yeah, Alan and I want to thank the members of Team PPP Editor Jordan Reynolds Barleyman, Becca Davis, Social Media manager Casey Hilsey, Event and Patreon community coordinator Katie McKenna, graphic artist Megan Collins, video editor Yonatan Lacens, and website guru Phil Dean.
- [113:29]
A
Now please take a minute to check out the prancingponypodcast.com that's where you'll find show notes, outtakes and Prancing Pony Pondering. We are still in the process of changing vendors for our merch at the moment. We hope that that gets resolved shortly. But in the meantime, when our online storefront does come back, you'll be able to get all sorts of cool PPP merch, including the amazing chapter art that Megan's been doing for us for more than three years now.
- [113:51]
B
Now, we're all about the books here at the Prancing Pony Podcast, so please be sure to also visit our library page. We try to make sure that any book we've mentioned on the show is linked there for you to purchase. And we, and we do get a small amount of compensation when you make your purchase. So thank you for that.
- [114:05]
A
Indeed. We also want to thank our patrons at the Kirdance contribution tier. I'll start with Demay in Alaska, Chad in Texas, Lance in New Jersey, Joseph in Michigan, Kathy from North Carolina, Brian in the uk, Cherry from Washington, Irwin from the Netherlands, Ben in Minnesota, Anthony in Texas, Zaksu in Illinois, Joshua in Massachusetts, Lucy in Texas, Erica in Texas, Vivian in California and James in Massachusetts.
- [114:31]
B
There's also Ann in Kentucky, Sean in New Jersey, Mason in California, Maureen from Massachusetts, Olivia in London, Robert in Arizona, Nick in Wisconsin, Lewis in South Carolina, Thomas in Germany, Craig in California, Kevin in Massachusetts, Joe in Maryland, Scott in California, Jeffrey in Michigan, and Paul in Colorado. Thank you you all so very much for your support indeed.
- [114:55]
A
Thank you.
- [114:55]
B
Now make sure you don't miss any episodes of the Prancing Pony Podcast. Subscribe now through Spotify, Apple Podcasts, Amazon Music, or your favorite podcast app.
- [115:04]
A
One last thing. As always, don't forget to send your thoughts, comments, and most of all, your plans for a festive group wedding to bartleman@the prancingpony podcast.com I'm sure you'll do.
- [115:14]
B
A great job of it. Now, Bartiman does have of a lot lot of mail to sort through, though, so we'll try to get to you just as soon as we're able.
- [115:21]
A
As always, though, this has been far too short a time to spend among such excellent and admirable listeners.
- [115:27]
B
But until next time, Jochen V. See you another time.
- [115:43]
A
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