396 – Questions After Nightfall 33

Summary

The Prancing Pony Podcast

Episode 396 – Questions After Nightfall 33

Release Date: January 18, 2026
Hosts: Alan Sisto and James Tauber

Episode Overview

In this live, quarterly “Questions After Nightfall” episode, host Alan Sisto is joined by co-host James Tauber and a panel of patrons for a lively Q&A session exploring all things Tolkien. With smart but approachable discussion, plenty of puns, pop-culture sidetracks (including a few Babylon 5 detours), and deep insight into the legendarium, the team addresses fan-submitted questions on lore, adaptation, character psychology, language, and more. The episode is rich in Tolkienian detail, speculative discussion, humorous moments, and spirited debate—perfect for any Tolkien fan who thrives on thoughtful, convivial analysis.

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Key Discussion Points and Insights

1. Aldarion’s Guild, the Cracks in Númenor, and Decline

[05:13–11:35]

• Question: Is Aldarion’s Guild a prelude to the King’s Men and Númenor’s downfall, or just a domestic tragedy echoing later themes?
• Alan’s Take: The Aldarion and Erendis story isn’t just a personal tragedy but a “prologue” to Númenor’s larger moral decline. Tolkien even considered calling the story “The Shadow of the Shadow.” The story reveals an early unease with extended Númenórean lifespans and the first social fractures.

  “It was clear that he was saying this is a prelude, or a prologue if you will, to the eventual descent of the Shadow itself.” — Alan [06:31]

• James adds: The seeds of Númenor’s decline are sown here, notably in the slow shift from innocent ambition to power lust, and the exploitation of resources. The gradual, generational process is key—no sudden fall, but progressive moral slippage.

  “It’s very much the proverbial frog in the pot of boiling water. It is so incredibly gradual.” — Alan [10:11]

2. Trolls in ‘The Hobbit’ and ‘The Lord of the Rings’ – Origins and Variations

[11:37–18:43]

• Question: Are there trolls in Lord of the Rings, and what is their origin? How did Sauron gain dominion over them?
• James provides stats: Troll(s) appear 44 times in Lord of the Rings. Appendix F explains their backstory: primitive, beast-like creatures made cunning and more dangerous by Sauron, some developing language via orcs.
• Alan highlights: Different trolls exist (stone, cave, hill, mountain, Olog-hai), with Olog-hai being Sauron’s most formidable breed, able to withstand sunlight by his will.

  “Sauron had made use of them teaching them what little they could learn and increasing their wits with wickedness.” — James [14:11, citing Appendix F]

• Memorable Moment: Arthur proffers a “spider Bombadil” theory, humorously speculating on Tom’s true nature and how many pairs of yellow boots he owns. [26:03]

3. Tom Bombadil – Why is He?

[18:55–25:15]

• Question: The Watsonian (in-world) answer to “Why is Tom Bombadil?”
• James suggests: Tom is Tolkien’s comfort character, perhaps thrown in to reassure his son Michael (originating in childhood stories), but as in all things “Tom,” multiple truths coexist.

  “He’s everything from an enigma on purpose to a personal representation of the Oxford countryside to all of these things… Tom is.” — Alan [22:01]

• Listener David shares: “Tom is the music crystallized”—an incarnate residue of the Music of the Ainur.

  “He’s … the physical residue of the music … the music incarnated.” — Alan [24:44]

• Humor: Arthur’s “Bombadil is a spider” theory gets a laugh: “Eight pairs because spider.” [26:43]

4. Tolkien Adaptations – Expectations and Mediums

[94:59–100:06]

• Mark asks: Are Tolkien adaptations doomed to fail due to high fan expectations and the benchmark of Peter Jackson’s films?
• Alan: The “measuring stick” set by Jackson’s movies makes every new adaptation an uphill battle. Adaptation must be judged by medium; Rings of Power is “a different beast” by TV necessity.

  “There’s a measuring stick that’s almost impossible to meet... as cinema goers, as folks who are maybe fans of Tolkien via the films, the 2001 trilogy was absolutely the gold standard.” — Alan [95:31]

• James: “LOTR Online” (video game) is the best adaptation for him. More focused stories in future adaptations (like a “Tal Elmar” series) may succeed where sprawling ones like Rings of Power struggle.

5. Alternate Lorekeepers and the Narrator’s Lens

[33:05–41:44]

• Katie asks: What if other characters (e.g., Galadriel) had been the primary lore-masters? How would that change the narrative?
• James discusses: The bias in texts like “The Tale of Years,” and how playing with the Galadriel Legend as a series of redactions by different historians could explain Tolkien’s shifting accounts.

  “I would love to do an analysis of the changes in Tolkien’s portrayal of Galadriel as being revisions made by different Lore Masters with different agendas…” — James [35:01]

• Alan: Such alternate chroniclers could dramatically shift the narrative, especially over centuries (less so in the “real-time” events of The Lord of the Rings).
• Fun aside: Legolas’ version of LOTR would barely mention hobbits!

6. The Aragorn–Éowyn–Arwen Triangle and What-ifs

[41:31–48:44]

• Arthur asks: If Tolkien had stuck with Aragorn/Éowyn, how would the story change?
• Alan: The biggest change could be at Pelennor Fields—without Éowyn’s despair, the Witch-king’s defeat might not occur as written. Faramir’s fate changes too.
• James: Some story points could be re-motivated, but the core plot could still hold.
• Sam: Would such a union spark another Gondorian Kin-Strife? Alan discusses Appendix A’s racial tensions in Gondorian history.
• Quote:

  “If she stays in Rohan, what happens differently?”—Arthur [45:59]

7. Gandalf, the Black Speech, and Theatrics

[50:22–55:17]

• Tom asks: Why does Gandalf refuse to speak the Ring verse in Frodo’s home, but not at the Council of Elrond?
• Consensus: In the Shire, protection is weak and the hunt is on; in Rivendell, Elrond’s power protects them. Saying the verse there is part demonstration, part gravitas, part dramatic emphasis.

  “If you think you’re scared hearing this language here in the safest place on earth… imagine what the rest of Middle Earth is dealing with.” — Alan [52:07]

• Tom’s Theory: Gandalf risks “invoking the power of the Ring” by speaking the Black Speech in its presence.

8. The Witch-king’s Fate and Tolkien’s Rhetoric

[55:35–60:31]

• Arthur notes: The Witch-king’s voice is “not heard again in that age of the world.” Could he have returned if Tolkien kept writing?
• Alan: No; with the One Ring’s destruction, the Nazgûl’s spirits are annihilated.
• Tom and James: The phrase is rhetorical, enhancing the legendary feel—akin to “sexiest man alive” (as opposed to dead).

9. The Istari: Performance Reviews

[62:30–66:16]

• Sam asks: If the Valar held a performance review for the five wizards before the War of the Ring, who gets promoted/fired?
• Consensus: Timing matters. 100 years before the War, Saruman looks like upper management, Gandalf’s just a pipe-weed-smoking oddball, the Blue Wizards are MIA, and Radagast does “no harm.” After the War, only Gandalf passes muster.

10. Why Tolkien’s Characters Suffer

[67:48–74:28]

• Anthony asks: Given Tolkien’s war trauma, why do his characters endure such hardship?
• Alan: In contrast to other WWI writers who focused on futility, Tolkien’s suffering leads to hope, “and yet”—suffering is a stage for resilience, faith, and possibility.

  “He wanted to show that people can endure these things and yet have hope.” — Alan [69:09]

• James: The refrain is “and yet”—things are hard, “and yet” hope, pity, light prevail (with the notable exception of poor Túrin... maybe).

11. On Tolkien’s Poetry: When and Why Appreciate It?

[74:35–81:16]

• David asks: When did Alan start actually reading Tolkien’s poetry, and which poem resonates most for him and James?
• Alan: The podcast “made” him pay close attention; before that, poems were often skipped. Now, he’s especially moved by the Rohirric alliterative verse, particularly “The Song of the Mounds of Mundburg.”
• James: Reading aloud (especially when teaching) revealed the powerful force of Tolkien's alliterative verse, especially the fragments in “The Lay of the Children of Húrin” and Feanor’s Oath.

12. Túrin Turambar – The Oldest-Child Complex

[82:23–93:02]

• Katie asks: Is Tolkien intentionally depicting Túrin as an “oldest child”? How did his upbringing and isolation as an only human in Doriath contribute to his pride and burdens?
• Alan: Túrin’s early loss of parents, Morwen’s cold strength, and Thingol’s unexamined pride shaped him—but so did his uniqueness among elves.
• James: Being the sole human put pressure on Túrin, encouraging pride and defensiveness; Tolkien’s own experience as the eldest orphan surely influenced the depiction.

13. Numenor, Naming, and Pride

[102:02–104:53]

• Tom commends: The very name “Numenor” (“Westernesse”) arose only as Men grew proud, distinguishing themselves from the true West (the Undying Lands). Furthermore, toponymy like “Vinyalondë” has layered, historical meaning amid changing self-images.
• Alan and James: These naming patterns reflect Tolkien's depth in linguistic and cultural world-building, showing shifts in attitude and pride.

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

On Númenor’s Decline

• "It is so incredibly gradual. And there's a moment—I'm having a Bab5 flashback here. I'm seeing Kosh: the avalanche has already started. It is too late for the pebbles to vote." — Alan [10:11]

On Tom Bombadil

• "He's everything from an enigma on purpose to a personal representation of the Oxford countryside." — Alan [22:01]
• "Tom is the music crystallized… the physical residue of the music." — David & Alan [24:23]

On Narrator Bias

• "I would love to do an analysis of the changes in Tolkien’s portrayal of Galadriel as being revisions made by different Lore Masters with different agendas …" — James [35:01]
• "Imagine if you got Lord of the Rings as told by Legolas. And then I said to Frodo, ‘Oh… nothing. I never really spoke to Frodo.’" — Alan [40:48]

On Tolkien's Hope

• “He wanted to show that people can endure these things and yet have hope.” — Alan [69:09]
• “And yet—that sums it up, doesn’t it?” — James [72:07]

On Performance Reviews for the Wizards

• "Saruman is the go-getter, Gandalf's just up there smoking pipe-weed. Why would you give that guy a promotion?" — Alan [65:40]

On Reading Tolkien Aloud

• "If there's one single takeaway... read the books aloud. Even if you're by yourself, read them aloud. It is such a different experience." — Alan [81:40]

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Timestamps for Major Segments

• [05:13–11:35] — Númenórean political tensions & Aldarion story
• [11:37–18:43] — Trolls: appearances, types, and Sauron's role
• [18:55–25:15] — Tom Bombadil: enigma and theories
• [33:05–41:44] — Alternate loremasters and narrative perspective
• [41:31–48:44] — Aragorn/Éowyn what-if, Pelennor Fields, and kin-strife
• [50:22–55:17] — Gandalf’s reluctance to utter the Black Speech
• [55:35–60:31] — Witch-king’s “not heard again in that age” and Tolkien’s rhetoric
• [62:30–66:16] — Istari performance review (wizards’ HR)
• [67:48–74:28] — Suffering and hope in Tolkien’s work
• [74:35–81:16] — Discovering Tolkien’s poetry, and reading it aloud
• [82:23–93:02] — Túrin’s family dynamics, pride, and psychological pressures
• [94:59–100:06] — Adaptations: expectations, games, and what’s next
• [102:02–104:53] — Numenor's naming, pride, and elvish linguistics

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Tone and Style

• Warm, witty, self-aware: Casual yet smart, designed for easy listening with plenty of humor and humility about their own limits.
• Pop culture and meta-jokes: Babylon 5 references and self-effacing acknowledgments of gaps in memory or knowledge.
• Inclusive & welcoming: Both hosts and guests repeatedly celebrate the diversity of Tolkien fans and perspectives.
• Deeply knowledgeable: The show is a mix of deep dives, speculative asides, and scholarly citation while remaining approachable.

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Key Takeaways

• The episode delivers a variety of explorations—serious, speculative, and outright silly—bringing the richness and complexity of Tolkien’s world to life.
• Tolkien’s project thrives on polyphony: multiple voices, biases, and in-world historians shape the legendarium.
• Suffering in Middle-earth is seldom nihilistic—it’s refracted through hope, compassion, and the possibility of redemption (“and yet…”).
• Engaging with Tolkien’s poetry, especially aloud, offers a transformative experience.
• Adaptations, expectations, and world-building both in and outside Tolkien’s text are perpetual topics for lively debate and shared enthusiasm.

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This episode is a treasure-trove for longtime Tolkien readers and newcomers alike, inviting listeners into the “common room” for laughter, lore, lament, and learning in equal measure.

Transcript

[Alan Sisto]

It is finally cold here in Southern California and these last few weeks I've really been enjoying staying warm with the softest and coziest sponsor that we've had here at the podcast, Lola Blankets. Now when I got mine earlier this year, I was immediately struck by just how soft and cozy it is, but also with how good it looks. I chose a smoke gray design that really fits with my style, but they've got a ton of different colors and patterns and styles to choose from, so. So you can definitely find something that will fit your space perfectly too. Now, Lola Blankets are blankets done right. They're super, super, super soft. I just cannot tell you how soft they are. Four way stretch double hemmed construction and I've had mine long enough and washed it often enough to tell you it doesn't shed or pill. They've got large blankets, super sized extra large blankets and they've even got weighted blankets too. And they're great. Not just as a holiday gift, but for birthdays, housewarmings and more. Now for a limited time, our listeners can get 40% off select Lola Blankets products with Code Pony at checkout. Just head to lolablankets.com that's L O L A blankets.com and use code pony to get 40% off your order. Now after you purchase, they'll ask where you heard about them. Please support our show and let them know we sent you. Wrap yourself in luxury with Lola Blankets. Reggie, I just sold my car online. Let's go, grandpa.

[James Tauber]

Wait, you did?

[Alan Sisto]

Yep, on Carvana.

[Tom]

Just put in the license plate, answered.

[Alan Sisto]

A few questions, got an offer in minutes. Easier than setting up that new digital picture frame.

[James Tauber]

You don't say.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah, they're even picking it up tomorrow.

[Tom]

Talk about fast.

[Alan Sisto]

Wow. Way to go. So about that picture frame. Ah, forget about it. Until Carvana makes one, I'm not interested.

[Katie]

Car selling made easy on Carvana.

[Alan Sisto]

Pick up fees may apply. Good evening little masters and welcome to episode 396 of the Branching Pony podcast where. Well, I am glad to have put altarian and horrendous in my rear view mirror. I mean, talk about a relationship car wreck. But I'll try not to run over James who's right in front of me. At least not before we take a break from Unfinished Tales for some live Q and A. James.

[James Tauber]

Yeah, I'm excited to be here folks. Pull up a bench in the common room and join us. I'm James Tauber, the sage of the south, and I'm here with the man of the west, Alan Sisto.

[Alan Sisto]

It is good to have you back, sir. I'm looking forward to our run through Tal Elmar and the history of Galadriel and Celeborn.

[James Tauber]

Indeed.

[Alan Sisto]

Should be good. Well folks, help us welcome a few of our patrons to join us for our 33rd quarterly questions after Nightfall.

[James Tauber]

Yes, welcome to all of you here, and also all of those of you who are listening. Whether you came to Middle Earth through the books, the films, TV show, or something else, each of you is welcome here in our common room. The Prancing Craning Podcast continues in our 10th season of Reading and talking our way through Middle Earth with conversations, digressions, and even speculations.

[Alan Sisto]

Not to mention a few puns and bad jokes here. And they're actually probably more than usual tonight, thanks to our our guest list. But our purpose here is to dive deep into the lore, discussing the story, our favorite characters and themes, Tolkien's Inspir, and a whole lot more.

[James Tauber]

And while we take the work seriously, the same can't be said about ourselves. We're just a couple of friends chatting at the pub, and we're glad you've joined us.

[Alan Sisto]

And I'm sure you'll be glad you joined as well, especially since tonight it isn't just the two of us chatting at the pub. Once a quarter we take a break from our read through and welcome a few of our patrons to join us here in the common room and bring along some of their very best questions. And even though the quarter ended 18 days ago, we recorded this in December, so it still counts as one.

[James Tauber]

We have no idea what they're going to ask us, so as we've done many times before, we're simply going to do the best job we can in answering their questions with whatever resources we have on our shelves.

[Alan Sisto]

Physical or digital for that matter. And as with previous Questions After Nightfall episodes, aside from any possible edits for nervous coughs or time spent flipping through pages while we look for an answer, we will be presenting this as it was recorded live, so everything you hear in this show will have been recorded during this session.

[James Tauber]

If you'd like to be on one of these with us sometime, join the Fellowship of the [e-mail] prancingponypod questions after nightfall episodes are recorded once a quarter and patrons at the Elronds Honorarium Tier and higher are invited to join.

[Alan Sisto]

It's just one of the ways that we show our appreciation to those who support the show, giving them the opportunity to join us, make us laugh, make us think, and more often than not, embarrass us for our lack of knowledge. Now, let's go and get started. James, who is up first?

[James Tauber]

We're going to start with welcome.

[Alan Sisto]

Does Frodo know you're here?

[Sam]

No, thankfully not.

[Alan Sisto]

Okay, well, good, because if you ask a question about him, we'll be really honest.

[James Tauber]

All right.

[Alan Sisto]

Welcome, by the way.

[Sam]

Thank you. Thank you very much, gentlemen. So my first question was going to be if Aragorn knew the airspeed velocity of Unlame Swallow. But we know this is something he would know as a king.

[Alan Sisto]

Well, of course, Arnorian or Gondorian. Really? That's the only question.

[Sam]

Exactly. So instead I want to ask you this. Aldarion's guild adventure causes enormous political tension in Numenor. Do you think Tolkien intended this as a prelude to the King's man and the first visible crack in Numenor's eventual downfall? Or is it simply a domestic tragedy that happens to echo later themes?

[Alan Sisto]

I like the question. Sara and I, of course, just spent 11 episodes going through Aldarian Orendus, both before and after the holiday break. And why, I'll tell you that there's more in that than I thought there would be. I was initially thinking, oh, 10 episodes might be too much. Maybe I should only do nine. Reality, we should have done 12. There's just a lot there. The guild adventures, though, are really an interesting, interesting thing. I don't know that I see a prelude to the King's Men per se, but I definitely see the story of Aldarian and Orendus as a prelude to the eventual, not just the downfall, but the Shadow. And in fact, Tolkien himself, I believe, saw it that way because one of the subtitles that one of the stories that he wrote down, one of the titles was Aldarin and Horrendous, the Shadow of the Shadow, for something along those lines. So it was clear that he was saying this is a prelude, or a prologue, if you will, to the eventual descent of the Shadow itself. So were they upset about not having eternal life at this point? Not at all. But was it already becoming a problem that they had these extended lifespans? Yes, very much. And I do think that the guild adventurers, again, not so much a prelude to the King's Men, but definitely showing the cracks, you know, because at one point they were very much in opposition to the king. Menelduer banned them and said, you can't, you know, you can't do this. Kick the frat out of the university, if you will. And later, of course, they became the King's men. Quite literally, but not in an oppositional sort of way. I mean, really, Eldarion's only opposition was Erendis. He was focused on the total and complete defeat of Erendis, which is an awful thing to say about your wife, but that's how it goes. James, what do you think?

[James Tauber]

I certainly think a lot of the seeds begin to be sown during the Aldarian story. Because one of the things that's really interesting, I think, about the Second Age is just how gradual the decline of the Numenoreans were and how much. It's a sort of step by step process. It wasn't that they all of a sudden woke up one day and decided to do human sacrifices, thank goodness.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah.

[James Tauber]

I think it's really interesting from the point of Tolkien illustrating how these things can start off so innocently and, you know, over time grow more and more into. Into people doing evil things. And we'll. We'll see a bunch of that, I think, in. And talk about that in the Tal Elma discussion.

[Alan Sisto]

That's exactly what I was thinking. Yeah.

[James Tauber]

Yeah. But specifically, I mean, the Aldarian stuff is going on a lot earlier than that. And we'll talk about that, I'm sure, in the next episode. But we certainly see issues to do with exploitation of natural resources. We see this wonderful contrast between the elves and humans with regard to, you know, there's that wonderful. The gift giving of the. Of the trees. And the men are kind of like, oh, that looks like it'd be really good for building ships. And the elves are just utterly confused that you would use a tree for building something like that. Like, no, we like.

[Alan Sisto]

We like the leaves.

[James Tauber]

What are you talking about? The streets?

[Alan Sisto]

What are you talking about?

[James Tauber]

So there's those sort of elements, but obviously the. The settlement.

[Alan Sisto]

Well, not.

[James Tauber]

Not only the settlement of Middle Earth and the resources, but even the going to the aid of Gil Galad really is such a flashpoint for what goes on.

[Alan Sisto]

Right.

[James Tauber]

Because we're told later that they essentially got a taste for power. The success that they had later on with Minasir coming to the rescue.

[Alan Sisto]

That's exactly the phrase, isn't it?

[James Tauber]

Yeah. Which is set up, you know, obviously, with the Eldarion stuff and Gil Galad's Al and everything. That's really the jumping off point. It is for their ultimate decline because they. They like the power.

[Alan Sisto]

They do. They really do.

[James Tauber]

They start getting more and more interested in the resources and, you know, we're told. And again, we're going to get into all this that, you know, they go supposedly for education and sharing and with the people.

[Alan Sisto]

That's right.

[James Tauber]

And that go. That goes downhill, obviously, and ultimately ends up in. Well, you know what it ends up with. But I think we see the beginnings of. In the Eldarian phase, and it is.

[Alan Sisto]

Very much the proverbial frog in the pot of boiling water. It is so incredibly gradual. And there's a moment. I'm having a Bab5 flashback here.

[James Tauber]

Oh, it's allowed.

[Alan Sisto]

I'm seeing Kosh with. The avalanche has already started. It is too late for the pebbles to vote. There's no chance for the faithful to stop the process. By the time it gets to that process, it is literally too late. And, yeah, it's something that just took generation after generation because, I mean, the Monastir situation is hundreds of years after Aldarian's reign. Yes. The text tells us very clearly that Monastir's success was.

[James Tauber]

And thousands of years before Pharazon.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah, exactly, exactly. I mean, it's a huge stretch of time, but yeah, you know, we read sort of ominously towards the end of the Eldarion story that they hadn't yet felt the need to expand, but it was very much the yet. The yet was doing a lot of heavy lifting and. Yeah. So no Lebensraum quite yet, but it's coming and it's coming quite powerfully. The Numenoreans are not going to be the good guys forever. And unfortunately, the story of Eldarian Arendis really does mark the beginning of that downfall. Good question. Sam James, who is up next?

[James Tauber]

Up next is Anthony.

[Alan Sisto]

Anthony. Welcome back, sir.

[Anthony]

Always good to be here. I know there are trolls in the Hobbit. I don't know if there are trolls in the Lord of the Rings. And I didn't know. I figured I'd just ask you rather than try and figure it out on my own.

[Alan Sisto]

Sure.

[Anthony]

Are there trolls? And how do we get them? And how does Sauron take over dominion over these creatures? How does that work in your mind?

[Alan Sisto]

That's a fair question. And Tolkien did give us enough that we can probably give you some pretty solid answers.

[James Tauber]

Certainly trolls are mentioned. So the singular troll is mentioned 16 times in Lord of the Rings. The plural 28 times.

[Alan Sisto]

Leave it to James to give us an exact count of how many and where. I love that. Yeah, no, they're definitely trolls mentioned.

[James Tauber]

Both.

[Alan Sisto]

In fact, Bilbo's trolls are mentioned because they encounter the Stone trolls.

[James Tauber]

Yep.

[Alan Sisto]

And then of course, we also get, you know, the. They have a cave troll. I mean, I know, that's the film. But there, you know, there are trolls that are encountered throughout the story and.

[James Tauber]

They come up in Appendix F as well.

[Alan Sisto]

Yes. And that's actually where we're going to go to talk about their origins. But, I mean, we even get two great trolls appearing in the chapter the Bridge of Khazad Dum. They lay down these big stone slabs. I mean, yeah, they are present. We get Treebeard talking a little bit about their origin and maybe that's where I'll start. And then, James, if you want to take what we have in the appendices.

[James Tauber]

Sure.

[Alan Sisto]

Mary is asking a little bit about the strength of the Ents. Right. They're going to go to Isengard and, you know, we're going to take care of. Of Sodoman. And Mary asks him, are you going to really break the doors of Isengard? I mean, he's thinking, this is not something you're physically capable of doing. You do not know, perhaps, how strong we are. Maybe you have heard of Trolls. They're mighty strong. But Trolls are only counterfeits made by the enemy in the Great Darkness in mockery of Ents as Orcs were of Elves. Now, that is an interesting thing. And I think it might not be, as we often know with characters in the story might not necessarily be accurate. Because if Trolls are made in mockery events the way Orcs were made in mockery of Elves are trolls corrupted Ents? I don't think that's what we actually get. James, what do we have in the appendices? Because they talk about their language, I think, a little bit.

[James Tauber]

Yeah. So I'll read the two paragraphs that talk about them in Appendix F. Troll. The word has been used to translate the Sindarin Torog. In their beginnings, far back in the twilight of the Elder Days these were creatures of dull and lumpish nature and had no more language than beasts.

[Alan Sisto]

Stop calling me out, James.

[James Tauber]

But Sauron had made use of them teaching them what little they could learn and increasing their wits with wickedness. Trolls therefore took such language as they could master from the Orcs. And in the Westlands, the Stone Trolls spoke a debased form of the Common Speech.

[Alan Sisto]

I thought that was an interesting thing. I know you got more to go from the appendices, but I like that because it's Tolkien saying, oh, by the way, here's why my William, Tom and Bert sounded the way they did because the other Trolls aren't gonna sound like that. That's his retcon.

[James Tauber]

Analogical translation. Just to make them cocky.

[Alan Sisto]

It's great though. I like definitely distinguishes those Stone Trolls from the trolls that we see in the Lord of the Rings.

[James Tauber]

Yes, because it is specifically the Westlands where the Stone Trolls speak. That. And then the next paragraph says. But at the end of the Third Age, a troll race not before seen appeared in southern Mirkwood and in the mountain borders of Mordor. Olog High they were called in the Black Speech that Sauron bred them. None doubted, though from what stock was not known. Some held they were not trolls, but giant orcs. But the Olog hai were, in fashion of body and mind, quite unlike even the largest of orc kind, whom they far surpassed in size and power. Trolls they were but filled with the evil will of their master. A fell race, strong, agile, fierce and cunning, but harder than stone. Unlike the older race of the Twilight, they could endure the sun so long as the will of Sauron held sway over them. They spoke little. The only tongue that they knew was the Black Speech of Barad Dur because.

[Alan Sisto]

That'S of course the only tongue that they were taught. The text doesn't tell us a whole lot about their origin, just says the speculations. Right. We don't know what stock they're they're made from, though he does pretty much shoot down the idea that they are like somehow super enhanced Orcs. And I think that makes sense. They are far different.

[James Tauber]

Yes. He makes a point to distinguish them from. Yeah, from, from orcs. It's interesting that a lot of the, the transformation by Sauron doesn't seem to be in any way any kind of evil magic or anything. It almost just seems like a bit of education sort of thing. Right. It's like, you know, I' teach them.

[Alan Sisto]

A little something and now they're going to be.

[James Tauber]

Yeah, exactly.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah, that makes sense. I mean, if they're illiterate to begin with, but Sauron teaches them language, they now have more capability to work in teams, to work to pursue evil and to go from simply being dumb, cruel beasts to being cunning, clever hunter types.

[Sam]

Right.

[Alan Sisto]

You know, very interesting. It's one of those things where we don't have a lot on them in terms of their origins. We don't know exactly, you know, what their source was. We know that there are a lot of trolls mentioned. We get gosh, cave trolls, hill trolls, mountain trolls, stone trolls, of course, the Olog High. And of course high is just a word that means people like the Uruk Hai. And so, you know, the snow trolls, we get snow trolls and Olog by the Way just means troll. So it's troll people. We even get the theoretical mention, and I don't think it's an actual half troll, but we get the description of the men from Far Harad that looked like half trolls. Because then we also get in the description of the Battle of the Pelennor Fields when we're basically given all the different bad guys, right? The Easterlings with axes, the Varyags of Khan, Southrons in scarlet and harad black men like half trolls with white eyes and red tongues. I don't think those are actually related to the trolls. I think this is, again, one of those. If, in all honesty, perhaps the most disturbing of the. Of the racial undertones here, which I want to get into at some point. But not tonight, not on that question. But yeah, that's. The trolls are very much mentioned a lot throughout, but they're like so many other things. We don't get all of their origins. But yeah.

[James Tauber]

And of course, Arador, Aragorn's grandfather, was slain by a troll.

[Alan Sisto]

That's trolls.

[James Tauber]

That's another.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah. Up in the troll Shaws, right. North of Rivendell. So. All right, great question. Another great question. I always enjoy the. The ones that gave us a chance to look in the appendices, James, since we spent so much time there last year. That was fun. All right, James, who do we have up next?

[James Tauber]

Next up we have David.

[Alan Sisto]

David. Welcome, sir.

[David]

Why, thank you.

[Alan Sisto]

You're most welcome.

[David]

So I brought. I have a question that I don't think you'll go to the appendices for, because I think it ends up being pure speculation. So this is. I want the Watsonian answer to why is Tom Bombadil.

[Alan Sisto]

The Watsonian answer to why we know the Doylest answer. That's true. And I tend to be very doylish in my. In my inspections of things. And so, James, I'm gonna defer to you to start, I know that looks a lot like throwing you in front of a bus that's moving down the.

[James Tauber]

Street, which you said you wouldn't.

[Alan Sisto]

Which I know. Well, no, I said I would try not to run you over.

[James Tauber]

But you're happy for somebody else to run me over.

[Alan Sisto]

If you're driving a bus, I'm gonna push you in the road. And if the bus comes, the bus comes. Try not to get hit. I'll start thinking through. Because Tom Bobadil is one of those things that when you're thinking about Tom a lot, you have a lot of thoughts about Tom. And when you're not, at least for Me, I haven't given Tom a thought in months because I've been dealing with Eldarion horrendous since, like, August. And.

[James Tauber]

Yeah. The parallels are not clear.

[Alan Sisto]

No.

[James Tauber]

Between Noel Darian and Renderson and Tom Bombadil and Goldberry.

[Alan Sisto]

No. There's a really. There's only one thing to say is that one is a good marriage and one is not.

[James Tauber]

Okay, so why Tom Bombadil? Well, I mean, you can obviously approach that from. In story and primary world point of view. I'm. I'm going to sort of take a bit of an easy way out and say something about the primary world, which is to reassure Michael is. Is my answer. Is my answer to that? There must have been some. There must have been some point. Well, I mean, you know, we know the origins of Tom Bombadil was Michael's toy. And there are multiple times, at least twice, if not three times, where Tolkien has invented a story to comfort Michael. I mean, Roverandom is a story to comfort Michael. The original Adventures of Tom Bombadil, I think, came from an event that one of the other brothers flushed Tom Bombadil down the toilet, I think, is the origin story for the Adventures of Tom Bombadil, if I recall correctly.

[Alan Sisto]

To Meet the River Daughter.

[James Tauber]

And, of course, you know, Michael was older by the time Tolkien was. Was writing Lord of the Rings. Not that much older. I mean, he was. He would have been a teenager, I guess. But I can't help but think there's a certain element of that, of just throwing it in for Michaels.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah. I mean, that doesn't seem like it.

[James Tauber]

Would really answering the question. But that's an impossible question.

[Alan Sisto]

Exactly. It's an impossible question. So it's something for us to just sort of banter with and toss back and forth. That wouldn't surprise me in the least. At least in the sense that there's some aspect of it that's. That I think, as it is with so many other things in Tolkien, there are probably multiple answers that are true, because we know that he really does see Tom as so many different things. I mean, you read the letters and you're like, so is Tom this? No, he's this. But then he's also this. He's everything from an enigma on purpose to a personal representation of the Oxford countryside to all of these things. And you're like, well, but which is he? Tolkien? Tell us. But he doesn't. He just comes back to say, Tom is. Yeah. Which is a question that got him into a little bit of trouble with one of His Catholic friends who thought he was doing a little bit of I am who I am, which is not what he was saying. But you know, Tom Bobbinil is not the self existent one, but it was. That's an interesting question. And I don't know that I'm more equipped to answer that than. Than. Than you are. For instance, I think we all kind of see Tom differently. A fascinating character. I know I didn't get him. I still don't get him. But I love the fact that I don't get him. Right. Like I embrace that now as a reader. Whereas before I wanted to know what is Tom? How does he fit into the structure? Is he an Ainu spirit of some kind? You know, embrace the mystery. It's okay that we don't know.

[James Tauber]

Is he the one that would have shown up in Babylon 5 when Sheridan jumped?

[Alan Sisto]

Oh, in the bottom of Zahadum?

[James Tauber]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Alan Sisto]

Instead of Lorien.

[James Tauber]

Instead of Lorien, yeah.

[Alan Sisto]

Maybe in a crossover I think he might show up. Remember the episode in Bab 5 where the guy thought he was King Arthur?

[James Tauber]

Yes.

[Alan Sisto]

I think that's where Tom Bombadil comes in. Just in a one off episode. Total crazy. Who the heck is this guy singing in tetraic trocameter and wearing these funny looking boots? Get him off my space station.

[James Tauber]

Michael York playing Tom Bombad.

[Alan Sisto]

That's right. Oh man. That was actually one of the better standalone episodes. Yeah. For those of you who don't know Bab5, that's okay. Go watch it though. You should try. All right. Great question, David. Even if it's one that we couldn't possibly answer. Thank you.

[David]

Well, it was. I wanted one that just would just go into random theories because that's. And I think that my answer to that, because I have one, is that Tom is the music crystallized.

[Alan Sisto]

Yes.

[David]

Which means that Iluvatar could see that. And it's almost like Iluvatar participating in the music and then seeing it crystallize down. And therefore Tom is not Illuvatar.

[Alan Sisto]

No, Tom is not Arda. We know he's not that.

[David]

Tom is not Arda, not Amaya. Thomas justlope the music.

[Alan Sisto]

He's the like the. The. The physical residue of the music is sort of what, where Sean and I landed on it in back in season three. I think that he's the after effects of the music, if you will. The music. What's the word I'm looking for? Incarnated.

[David]

Yeah, yeah. And I forget whether I was thinking of that along my lines before I listened to season three.

[Alan Sisto]

And even then, it's one of those things where it's even. That's not a satisfactory answer. It doesn't really say, like, his nature. But it's.

[David]

But that's. That's why I said it's not what is he? But why is he? And if we look at it as part of the music, that's why. Because the music is such a big thing that it has to kind of incarnate itself.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah, I like that. And that explains because the why is of course, two. It might be three or four or five levels. I mean, why, like James talked about, you know, why did Tolkien include him? Why is he in the story? But also, why does he exist within the universe? And those are both very good questions. I really like them. Now, you did mention, you know, sort of our own individual theories. I know that we have a very unusual one represented tonight. Arthur, you have a moment or two to share your kind of wacky, crazy theory. But I enjoy hearing it because nobody tells it like you do.

[Arthur]

It's wacky and crazy. But there is text to support it. When Tom is giving his talk about how he knew the dark under the stars when it was fearless, before the Dark Lord came from outside. When he says this, Frodo sees a shadow pass in front of the window, which Tolkien. It's always significant. When he looks up, there's Goldberry, who has just come in from outside. When I read that, I asked myself, just how many pairs of yellow boots does Tom have? I bet he has eight pairs. And it's a good thing their kid wasn't home visiting when When Hobbit Sees came through. That's all I can say.

[Alan Sisto]

Eight pairs because spider.

[Arthur]

Absolutely.

[Alan Sisto]

Of course, that would actually just be four pairs, by the way.

[Arthur]

Four pairs, very special spider.

[Alan Sisto]

Two feet at the end of each appendage. I like that. All right, very interesting. I do like that. I'm not sure I can sign on to it. But, Arthur, nobody shares that crazy wacky theory any better than you do. So I appreciate it. All right, that was fun. James, who do we have up next?

[James Tauber]

Next up we have Mark.

[Alan Sisto]

Mark. Welcome, sir.

[Anthony]

Hi.

[Alan Sisto]

So I have a non lore question tonight. I know, Alan, that you enjoy Lord of the Rings online. I don't know if you play that, James, but I was curious about a new game that recently came out that I've not heard you talk about. So do you know about the game Tales of the Shire?

[Sam]

And if so, what do you think about it?

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah, you know, actually last season James and I sat down for a couple of hours with Darren Ormandy, who is the lead writer over at what a workshop and who wrote almost all of the text you're going to read in Tales of the Shire. I then also did a few live streams of the game, including on launch day on the PPP plays, which is the twice weekly livestream show that I have. It was an enjoyable game. It's not. It's not my cup of tea personally, because I'm not big on the sort of Animal Crossing slash Stardew Valley genre that that fits into, but I loved some of the design choices they made. I loved that when you needed to follow a map, it wasn't, you know, a glowing line or a dashed line on the ground or anything like that. It was. It was birds at signposts and you had to see what they were doing and where to go. And I loved the art design of the game. I did find that it was. It tended to get a little repetitive, a little quickly. There wasn't a lot of depth to it. There wasn't a lot of game to it, if you will. But it was a cute story, I think, a fun way to spend a few hours and certainly if you're able to find it on it was already pretty cheap to begin with. I think it launched at like a $30 price point, which is about half what a typical AAA game costs. But I think if you can find it on sale, let's say, you know, the Steam winter sale or something like that, for 10 bucks, it's definitely worth that and, and, you know, to, to play through and enjoy. I think, though, if that is your genre, you'd enjoy it very much. So, yeah, fun game and Darren was a great guy to chat with, I'm telling you. Yeah, that interview, it really was a fun interview and it made me really enjoy some of the Easter eggs and things that I found in the game. It was clear that they took a lot of care to include the fact that the Shire had a past. So you would find like old Arnorian ruins and things like that. It was really made very clearly as a labor of love for whatever can be said about it in terms of gameplay. It was at least that. Coming up on the new year and the colder days of winter. And for me that means wearing one of the cashmere sweaters that I bought from Quince. They're super soft, they didn't break the bank and they're warm enough for my mild Southern California winters. So if you need a winter wardrobe reset, start with Quince for pieces that are made to last season after season. Quince has the outerwear you need for the winter. Wool coats, down jackets, cashmere, Italian leather keep you warm, hold up really well for daily wear and look great. That's one reason I actually enjoy winter. I get to wear these really nice, good looking pieces. It's kind of a shame that California winters are so short now. Quince brings together premium materials, great design and quality that lasts so you look and feel your best, your warm best all season long and the styles are classic. So your winter wardrobe, it's going to hold up year after year. Refresh your winter wardrobe with quince. Go to quince.com pony for free shipping on your order and 365 day returns. It's now available in Canada too. That's Quince Q U I n c e.com pony free shipping and 365 day returns. Quince.com pony there's a world where legends race across city skylines. Romance blossoms in glittering ballrooms, and there's magic around every corner. It's a world known to many as Great Britain. You've seen the action on screen. Now visit the real star of the show. Visit Great Britain. To discover more, go to tripadvisor.com Great.

[Tom]

Britain when you listen to Nobody Listens.

[Alan Sisto]

To Paula Poundstone the comedy podcast, you learn stuff. I've been learning to throw a boomerang because this is the kind of thing that really gets the listeners engaged.

[Tom]

You know, interviews with people who will make you smarter. Does the amount that you learn protect you from cognitive decline?

[James Tauber]

Paula, don't try to catch that.

[Alan Sisto]

Can't people just listen to the show? Can't they just enjoy a delightful treehouse.

[Katie]

Full of information and I think I'm bleeding.

[Alan Sisto]

Join us and be a nobody. Now in just a minute, we'll get back to our incredible listener questions. But before we do, I want to take a minute to thank the amazing community that has grown up around this show. I mean, after all, there is a lot more talk going on at the Prancing Pony podcast than just us. And that's a good thing.

[James Tauber]

Indeed. The PPP really does have a warm and welcoming listener community. If you've got questions or just want to talk about how much you love Middle Earth, be sure to check out our common room on Facebook and across all social media. On Facebook, just look for the Prancing Pony podcast. Yeah, there's a page, but you're going to want to join the group for that great fan community now on Instagram.

[Alan Sisto]

X TikTok blue sky, YouTube, everyplace else. We're just at Prancing Pony Podcast and you can find our subreddit at R Slash Prancing Pony Pod. And be sure to check out my daily show, Today's Tolkien Times, on YouTube and all your favorite podcast apps. That's where you can get your daily Middle Earth fix with everything from Tolkien Tuesdays to Silmarillion Saturdays. Be sure to check it [e-mail] rancing pony pod. All right, James, so who do we have up next?

[James Tauber]

Next up, we have Katie.

[Alan Sisto]

Oh, Katie, welcome.

[Katie]

Hi guys. It's good to pop in for once.

[Alan Sisto]

It is indeed good to have you here.

[Katie]

So I actually tailored the question I have for you guys tonight in honor of James being here, and I hope you'll bear with me for just a little bit while I get out this full thought. Okay, so I've been thinking about Pangoloth recently in part because of James previous episodes and his work on the digital Tolkien Project and discussions in the Tolkien community and other characters such as the hobbits, who we have, that are quote unquote, responsible for the texts and reports that we have of history and events. And my question is, are there other characters in the legendarium, either in the main works or the expanded supporting texts, who you would want to have as a Lore master or recorder of events? Who isn't? And to carry that further, how do you think their experiences, knowledge and access would influence or change the narrative, such as we have it? For instance, if Galadriel was a Lore Master who provided us with records, would we have more access to the dwarves and Khazad Dum in the narrative? I'm curious to hear your thoughts.

[Alan Sisto]

That's. I like this question. Yeah, Alternate Lore keepers.

[James Tauber]

Well, because as you know, one of the things that I always like to look out for is whose point of view is this really being told from? You know, we've talked about in the Tale of the Second Age, Tale of Year, and I gave a talk at IMC Leeds about this this topic that the Tale of Years of the Second Age is so biased in terms of what it includes and what it and more importantly, what it skips over in terms of what what things get included there. The other thought I'll continue to formulate thoughts as as I answer this and I'm sure to come up with some more while while Alan is talk.

[Alan Sisto]

The other aspect that assumes I'll have something to say.

[James Tauber]

The other thing that occurs to me, I've said this many times before as well. I would love to Do a analysis of Tolkien and maybe we should actually do it when we get to the history of Galadriel and Celeborn is. I would love to do an analysis of the changes in Tolkien's portrayal of Galadriel as being revisions made by different Lore Masters with different agendas, rather than a primary world change of mind.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah.

[James Tauber]

Because there's some wonderful things that. There's some wonderful interpolations in texts about Galadriel that sound totally like some scribe hundreds of years later just had to insert, oh, Galadriel was the greatest elf ever.

[Alan Sisto]

It's like a marginal note, you know, it's like you're imagining the scrolls and somebody, you know, writing a note in the side.

[James Tauber]

Yeah, they're just writing about Galadriel and have to get in. I mean, you see this in the primary world all the time where, like Josephus. There's a little mention in Josephus about Jesus, which is most scholars think was just added by a scholar later who wanted to. Josephus did talk about Jesus. But then there's this sort of interpolation about. That probably didn't come from Josephus. And it's the same sort of. I would love to sort of look at Galadriel that way.

[Alan Sisto]

That's interesting. Yeah, I think we should.

[James Tauber]

In terms of other people's points of view. Well, I'm still thinking about this, but I do want to point out, of course, with Tal Elmar, we're going to get another example of that. Right.

[Alan Sisto]

Yet another viewpoint.

[James Tauber]

We're going to get the Numenorean settlements seen from. From the other side.

[Alan Sisto]

And that's something that Tolkien does really, really well too. I mean, sometimes so subtly, it's hard to notice the difference. I mean, like you pointed out last year when we were going through some of the appendices, you were talking about how this is basically Elendil's rehab. You know, this is. This is showing that, you know, these people are good. Even though this history has come and it's. It's mind boggling because if you don't look for that, if you're not consciously aware that there is a historian here, a scribe of some kind who's writing the story down, who will inherently have their own spin on things, you miss it because Tolkien's so good at shifting those perspectives.

[James Tauber]

Yeah, I'm trying to think if there's anything that would shift dramatically in Lord of the Rings. Yeah, I'm not sure that you would get that much of a shift.

[Alan Sisto]

It's almost too short a time. Spanish, you know, and I think the thing that we see that most is with these long periods of time and where you have sort of that 30,000 foot overview and history moves over a period of centuries, that's where the historian's angle really comes into play. Whereas the history of the Lord of the Rings is what, a year and a half? I mean, you know, for the bulk of the story.

[James Tauber]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Alan Sisto]

So it's a little less room to play, if you will.

[James Tauber]

I'm thinking about Silmarillion stories that would be. Would end up with a different. A different kind of perspective if he had a different Lore Master.

[Alan Sisto]

If Theodore were the Loremaster, I'm pretty sure I know how that story would have been written.

[James Tauber]

I mean, of course, he was a great Law master.

[Alan Sisto]

He was actually. He was a great everything.

[James Tauber]

But. Yeah, I'm even thinking, you know, because we do. Until he gets completely cut out of history, you know, Pengaloth was obviously second only to Rumal in giving us the quote unquote Silmarillion material. But it would be interesting. You know, Pengaloth was in Gondolin and with the, you know, the refugees from Gondolin. But what if you'd had more of a perspective among the Edain, for example, I wonder what an Edain telling of some of the Belerian events would be.

[David]

Yeah.

[Alan Sisto]

I mean, wouldn't it be interesting to see their story of encountering Finrod and be.

[James Tauber]

Right.

[Alan Sisto]

That's what I'm thinking. Kind of a tell alloy embedded into. Yeah, right. And I was so in awe of his wisdom and his kindness and, you know, just his. His bearing that I. I'm willing to have my name changed to Vassal. Right, Beor.

[James Tauber]

Right.

[Alan Sisto]

I mean, because that cannot have been the name he was born with. Nobody says, you know, I love the way my son looks. He looks a lot like me. I'm going to call him Vassal.

[James Tauber]

Yeah. Yeah. I do want to come back, though, to. You know, Katie specifically mentioned Galadriel, and.

[Alan Sisto]

I think Galadriel, she'd been.

[James Tauber]

Galadriel's telling of Silmarillion stuff would be really interesting because we already know that she's quite happy to omit certain details when, you know, she doesn't tell untruths.

[Alan Sisto]

She just doesn't tell all the truth.

[James Tauber]

Right, Exactly. Exactly.

[David]

Right.

[James Tauber]

So we have evidence of her being, you know, an interesting. An interesting teller of stories.

[Alan Sisto]

So I wonder. I think we'd get. Oh, well, we sure would get a very different spin on the Flight of the Noldor. It wouldn't be as pro. Noldor as Feanor's version would be, for obvious reasons. And I think there would certainly be still the condemning of. Of his actions.

[James Tauber]

So this is where I think it would be interesting. We should definitely do this when we get to the history of Roger and Celeborn is that this is one of the areas that. That Tolkien changed his mind.

[Alan Sisto]

Yes.

[James Tauber]

Right. Was. What was Galadriel's relationship?

[Alan Sisto]

What was her motivation? What was her relationship with them? When did she leave? Why did she leave all of that? Multiple versions.

[James Tauber]

It will be a fun experiment to play of. Can we recast those different versions in light of different theories of who's telling the story? Is there a version of the Galadriel story? That is what she probably said as opposed to someone else.

[Alan Sisto]

That will be a fun exercise that really. Well, great question, Katie. Thank you for that. I do love this idea of, you know, who's the historian and what are they actually trying to convey? What is their agenda?

[James Tauber]

Imagine if you got Lord of the Rings as told by Legolas.

[Alan Sisto]

And then I said to Frodo, oh, nothing. I never really spoke to Frodo. That's what I'm thinking.

[James Tauber]

It's not really about Frodo at all.

[Alan Sisto]

And there were these four small people. I don't know what something. Quarterlings. I can't remember what they were called. I didn't really talk to them very much. Then Gimli and I became friends and. And I beat him in that battle of how many. How many Orcs we killed?

[James Tauber]

That's right.

[Alan Sisto]

That was me. I won. Yeah, that's right. All right, so we have, I think, one more question in this round.

[James Tauber]

Two more.

[Alan Sisto]

Two more right on. Who do we have up next?

[James Tauber]

Arthur is next.

[Alan Sisto]

Arthur. Okay.

[Arthur]

On behalf of my great grandfather who genealogical studies have confirmed was from Transylvania, which explains a lot. Good evening.

[Alan Sisto]

Good evening, Arthur, and welcome back.

[Arthur]

As always, I have a what if question. We know that Tolkien originally planned to have Aragorn and Eowyn get together, but he changed his mind so we could have a couple with a barren Luthien vibe. How would the story be different if Eowyn used a palantir to convince Tolkien to not invent that woman? Would she have been at the Pelennor Fields at the right moment to off the Witch King? Would Aragorn have gotten more cooperation from Elrond? Would Faramir have ended up with Tauriel discussed?

[Alan Sisto]

I shall not dignify the last question with an answer, but this is a good question. I like this because indeed, quite far into the story that was his intent. Then later, I mean, like, even Arwen didn't even get her name until towards the very end, she was Finduilas for a while. If he ends up with Eowyn, first of all, I don't think he gets any less help from Elrond because he is still who he is. He is still the king in exile. He is still, you know, Elrond is. That's. His job is to foster these, These, these young men into who they. Who they're supposed to be. So I don't think he gets any less help. But he doesn't have to go out on those. The years of his knights errant when he goes out as Thorongil to Rohan and to Gondor because he's doing all that to prove and to sort of up his game and come back as qualified. Right. I mean, maybe he still does that, but I don't know. I don't know that he gets any less help from Elrond. But the good question or the good part of the question. Well, a good question, but the part of the question where the story turns out is what happens to Eowyn? Does Eowyn no longer feel that despair and go to the battlefield seeking death? And therefore does the Witch King just sort of clean up? That's a problem.

[James Tauber]

Yeah. I mean, I think you could give her a different motivation for being there. I think you can still get her there.

[Alan Sisto]

You could. And maybe it's Mary anyway who still takes him out since it was Mary's dagger that undid the spell, as it were, that unknit the sinews, if I remember the language correctly. Yeah, but, yeah, we certainly would have a different story. Faramir would be disappointed. He wouldn't even know what he was missing. He'd be fine. Hey, look, it's the king's fiance. Congratulations.

[James Tauber]

Struggling to find something substantial that would change other than. I mean, you talked about Aragorn's earlier life and so on, but that's all just.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah.

[James Tauber]

I don't know how important that is in the actual story itself as opposed to things we find out in the. In the appendices and so on.

[Tom]

True.

[Alan Sisto]

True. Wasn't there also a time where in the drafts he was actually having Eowyn die on the Polenor. But I don't remember if that was after he decided Aragorn wasn't gonna marry.

[James Tauber]

Her, kill her off, now that we've kill her off.

[Alan Sisto]

But I don't. I just don't remember where in the story that was in terms of the various drafts, I'd have to look that up. But there were so many different versions of Eowyn in that regard. Yeah, I'm not really sure. I mean, he could certainly still have her be the one who brings down. You look upon no man you look upon. All of those things could still work. She just would have had a different motive for going. But what would have happened in other parts of the story, Honestly, I can see her doing that because she still wouldn't have been able to go without going through the Paths of the Dead. So she would have still been like, I don't understand. You tell me you love me. You say you want to get married, but you're going to go off and die because you're going through this place where I know you're going to die. Because of course, that's what Thoreau here and believe nobody could possibly get out of there alive. So she could even still have the same despair motive. That's a very interesting question, though. I like the question a lot. Arthur, you had something you wanted to follow up on, and then Sam will come to you on that as well.

[Tom]

Well, yeah.

[Arthur]

My thought was that if she was getting more, shall we say, positive feedback from Aragorn, she would not have had all that despair. Even if she said, yeah, you got to do what you got to do, do the Paths of the Dead. I will be here waiting for you when you come back. And I'm no longer despairing and feeling that I have to throw my life away. If she stays in Rohan, what happens differently?

[Alan Sisto]

If she stays in Rohan, Obviously things are different, but I don't know that she would stay in Rohan. I mean, Tolkien's decision. That's the whole point. Tolkien, I don't know. Would he have written her staying in a row? I feel like that's such a dead end for that character. But that's one of the things we talked about at the time with Passing of the Great Company and then also which I went through, I think. James, was that with you passing the Great Company? No, it was with Don Marshall. That's who I had that. Because it was all about the you and the formal and the informal. And then Sara and I talked about it again as well in the Houses of Healing and sort of her motivation and all of this. I feel like this is a really important thing for Tolkien to show that despair. I don't know that he would have had her stay in Rohan in any of the scenarios. I don't see that as being a story element that he would have wanted to pursue for her even if they'd already plighted their troth, as they say. Sam, you wanted to jump in real quick on this as well.

[Sam]

Yeah. I'm not entirely sure if this would be likely but I would be curious if it would if this could possibly lead to another Kin Strife as it is, The. It's a very similar thing of a Gondorian marrying a North woman.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah, I think they learned their lesson. I mean, I honestly do. Their. Their blood had been by now, obviously is mingled with. With that of the Northmen anyway. But I don't doubt that there would have been some who would have been opposed to the marriage because of that. I mean, this is very much, you know, the whole Gondorian kin strike. For those of you who aren't familiar with that part of the story, it's in Appendix A. One of the kings of Gondor sent his son up to the north to deal with who was essentially the predecessor to the Rohirrim to the Northman. And he fell in love with the daughter of the king of the Northmen, married her and their son was then, quote unquote, a half blood. And you end up seeing a period of really ugly racism and civil war in Gondor over the fact that they didn't want this half blood to inherit the throne. And so then that's how you end up with Castamir the Usurper. He sat on the throne for a decade before Eldacar came back and wiped him out. So great story, by the way. And I really. I mean, that is one of my favorite stories in the appendices is the Kin Strife because it's such a shocker to see the. The way Gondor just kind of crumbled at that, really unnecessarily so. But that's a very good question, Sam, and I'm sure there would be some. I can imagine Denethor being very opposed to that.

[David]

Right.

[Alan Sisto]

He's very clearly a guy who takes pride in his bloodline. And if he were still alive, quite.

[James Tauber]

Probably if he'd been alive, he would have seen Faramir marrying Aewyn.

[Alan Sisto]

That's a good point. Yeah. Like, sorry, sorry, Mr. Wannabe King, you can't marry this north woman. But, you know, my son likes her. Yeah, sure, yeah. As for Faramir ining a potariel, thankfully, no. But he is taller than either of the hot Dwarves, so that could work, I suppose. I'm calling them what I have heard them called. This is not a reflection of my personal judgment. Just so you're aware.

[James Tauber]

All right.

[Alan Sisto]

Great question, though. All right, so I think Tom, you're up next, sir. Welcome back, by the way. I can't count how many times I've told people to go buy your book and read your book. Pity. Power and Tolkien's Ring. One of the best books read.

[Tom]

Thank you. You're welcome. I'm glad you think so. Yeah, I kind of like it. But it's kind of natural for me to think well of it. At least I still think well of it, you know, several years after I finished it. So at least I'm not embarrassed by it.

[Alan Sisto]

Unlike me.

[Tom]

You know. You know, it's. But, you know, if Tolkien had left the Eowyn thing in, or if he had left Arwen as Funduilas, it would have gone bad. Yeah, great name. But if you're named Funduilas Awful Face, bad things are gonna happen to you.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Tom]

You know, bad things are gonna happen to you. So anyway, my question, it's. Is a very, very, very simple one. And you hear people every now and then say, so how come Gandalf gets to say the Ring verse in. In.

[Alan Sisto]

In.

[Tom]

At the Council of Elrond, but he won't say it in Frodo's living room? But then he says it and, you know, the sky gets dark and everything and Sauron sits upright on his throne and goes, what? You know, I. I kind of feel. I've always kind of felt that Gandalf was trolling Sauron there. He's like, oh, crap, Gandalf's got it. So anyway, I like that. I. I just. What do you think. What do you think he means when he says, why won't he say the.

[Alan Sisto]

Verse which I will not utter here?

[James Tauber]

I think it's. It's a combination of the particular concerns and fears in the Shire but also the extra protection that they get in Rivendell.

[Alan Sisto]

That's exactly. That was my answer entirely. Is the protection of the ring. Yeah, Elrond's ring offers protection. In here, there is no protection and they are vulnerable. And he knows they're being hunted.

[James Tauber]

Yeah, exactly. It's the fact that the hunt is on in the Shire that there's. It's just.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah.

[James Tauber]

They're too vulnerable in the Shire.

[Alan Sisto]

But I think that's why he doesn't. That answers certainly why he doesn't utter the language there. But why does he then go ahead and speak it in the Council of Elrond of all places?

[James Tauber]

Yeah, I mean, it's probably the safest place to do it if you're gonna.

[Alan Sisto]

But why even do it at all? Right. I think the question would be.

[James Tauber]

I kind of like Tom's idea of it.

[Alan Sisto]

Trolling.

[James Tauber]

Trolling, trolling.

[Alan Sisto]

Sarah. I do love that, actually. Yeah.

[James Tauber]

What are your thoughts?

[Alan Sisto]

I think that it adds a gravitas. It adds a sense of we are dealing with the absolute worst thing we can possibly deal with here. If you think you're scared hearing this language here in the safest place on Earth outside of perhaps Loth Laurian, imagine what the rest of the. Of Middle Earth is dealing with. You're afraid now because you've heard me speak this. This tongue. Then do something about it. Get off your butts and do something. I think that's what that's about. It's a motivation and adding a sense of, you know, gravitas to it, for sure.

[James Tauber]

I want to hear Tom's thoughts.

[Tom]

Well, I agree that the. In Rivendell, Gandalf's making a point.

[James Tauber]

Yes.

[Tom]

You know that he's making a point by. By saying the Ring incantation in the Black Speech. He's invoking the power of the Ring.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah.

[Tom]

Which is why, you know, the elves all dive under the table and the sky gets dark and it's like a fire drill.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah, exactly.

[Tom]

But I think that the, the, the. Yeah, he is putting the fear of God in them, Katie. But, you know, maybe he's trying to get a point across the Boromir other than anybody else and give, you know, get Elrond to do this. You know, it has to do with what he means by here. I don't think here means in your living room, Frodo, though I agree. He wouldn't want to draw attention. Yeah, okay. I think he means in the presence of the Ring.

[Alan Sisto]

Ah.

[Tom]

And that's. And that's why he says it in Westruun and nothing happens.

[Alan Sisto]

Right, right.

[Tom]

But by saying it in. In the Black Speech, he invokes the power of the Ring. I mean, someone is. I mean, it wouldn't have happened if Frodo had said it, you know, but because Gandalf has the innate power to wield the Ring, when he says here, he means I want. I'm not going to say that. Those words in that language in the presence of the Ring because I know what will happen.

[Alan Sisto]

That. That could be a valid reason because unlike the film, the Ring isn't sitting on a dais in the middle of the Council at this moment.

[Sam]

Right.

[Alan Sisto]

Where is the Ring, though, at this moment? I'm trying to stick in Rivendell. Yeah. In Rivendell the Council around Frodo, sticker in his pocket. Yeah, that's right. It is.

[Tom]

It's not like, out on the table, like.

[Alan Sisto]

No, it's not. On the day is waiting for Gimli to hit it with an ax. It has been. It has been touched by somebody because it's been put on a chain, a new chain, and we still don't know who that particular person is. But yeah, yeah, it is the gravitas and also the. Can we stop the debate and just finally agree this is the One Ring? Because they were still deciding that. Right. Because he even says before that if that is not proof enough, Galdor, there is this test, and here's what I found out. Here are the results of that test. Yeah, sure. Elrond's like, ain't nobody talked like that here before. But his point is, if you don't want to hear that everywhere, can we just stop arguing and acknowledge that this is the Ring and now we have to deal with it? So. Yeah, I like that, though.

[Tom]

And it was the second time Elrond would have heard those words because he would have heard them when Caleb Rimbor.

[Alan Sisto]

Yes, that is absolutely right. Oh, my goodness. Wow. 3,000 years ago, Gandalf. I was there. Yeah.

[James Tauber]

Wow.

[Alan Sisto]

Very good point. All right, James, let's go ahead and start our second round. And in our second round, who do we have up leading off, as they say?

[James Tauber]

Okay, we have Arthur.

[Alan Sisto]

Wow. Okay. We had such a short break from you, sir. Welcome back.

[Arthur]

One of the other little weird things, you know me, I'm always looking for strange little oddities, loopholes and things. When the Witch King bites the dust, we hear that his voice goes up into the sky and fades and is not heard again in that age of the world. That age of the world only lasted, what, another couple of years?

[Alan Sisto]

I know, exactly.

[Arthur]

Does this leave a loop pole? People say somebody in a forum the other day was saying, in the Fourth Age, what's the manifestation of evil? Can we raise the possibility that if Tolkien kept writing, the Witch King would have been the opponent in the Fourth Age?

[Alan Sisto]

No, only because he was a mortal man. And once the One Ring was destroyed, the power of the Nine that would have kept him alive would have completely. He would have been annihilated. He wasn't annihilated at the moment that Eowyn killed him. His spirit would have flown back to Barad Dur. But then when the One Ring is destroyed, he and all the other.

[James Tauber]

Plus that would be to Star Wars Episode 9.

[Alan Sisto]

That would be.

[Arthur]

Oh, don't go there.

[Alan Sisto]

Oh, I love that. Sadly, you're not wrong. Yeah, I think that's really. That's what it boils down to is what is the nature of the Witch King? The Witch King is a mortal man who has been stretched beyond having physical corporeality anymore. If we want to get into the whole hroa and fea thing. Right. His hroa is gone and his feja is not free to leave yet. And so he's wearing the mantle and he's got, you know, he can't be seen unless he's wearing clothing. All of that, he's faded beyond fade. But once the One is destroyed, there's nothing left to hold him in place. And at that point, the Gift of Iluvatar shows up and he has to say, oops, I don't want to be him, and have an answer for that. But Arthur, fire away.

[Arthur]

Putting aside the fact that when the Gift of Ilavatar shows up, he asks if anybody kept the receipt.

[Alan Sisto]

Doesn't come with a gift receipt. That's right.

[Arthur]

I still can't explain to myself why Tolkien used that particular phrase, not heard again in that age of the world. Can anybody come up with any rationale for that other than it sounds good?

[Alan Sisto]

I think. Yeah, it's this sort of legendary sounding thing to just say and it was never heard again is boring. Right. Yeah.

[James Tauber]

We need to necessarily read anything into it. I think it's just a figure of speech to.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah, I mean, it was never heard again in that age of this world. But also no other age either, for that matter. I mean, it's a true statement. It just doesn't incorporate all of the truth because it's not, you know, it's not ever heard again. Tom?

[Tom]

Yeah, I can't say why it's, you know, why he. He phrased it that way. Aside from it sounds epic.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah.

[Tom]

But there is a parallel of sorts of when they're in Lothlorien and it and Frodo and Aragorn walk away from or whatever that hill was called. I don't remember.

[Alan Sisto]

Kenneth.

[Tom]

Thank you. And. And it says, and he came there never again as a living man.

[James Tauber]

As a living man.

[Tom]

Which makes me wonder if he was there waiting for Arwen when she died.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah. But, you know, Ghost of Aragorn standing.

[Tom]

Up there in Amaroth, I'm sure, you know, we'd be much happier to see him again than we would the Witch King, but you can't pick and choose.

[Alan Sisto]

No. The Dead King or the Witch King. I'll take the Dead King. Every time I have to believe there's.

[James Tauber]

A term for this kind of rhetoric where you put a. You almost put a restriction on it.

[Alan Sisto]

To emphasize it, even though the restriction isn't limited. Right. I mean, it's still true that he came there never again as living man, but he also didn't come there as a dead man either. But.

[James Tauber]

Well, it's sort of like when, you know, you get. You get, you know, people being voted the sexiest man alive, like yourself. Alan.

[Alan Sisto]

Stop fishing for the bonus, James.

[James Tauber]

It ain't coming.

[Tom]

I miss that issue.

[James Tauber]

Right. The claim is not that there's a dead person that's sexier.

[Alan Sisto]

Right.

[James Tauber]

It's just there's a sense in which saying that even though it's restrictive.

[Alan Sisto]

Right.

[James Tauber]

Semantically, it actually kind of emphasizes the point more.

[Alan Sisto]

I like that example. It took me a little bit to get over that example, but I like that. I think you're right to add the restriction adds a sense of importance, a sense of it being elevated for some.

[James Tauber]

Reason, even though that seems slightly contradictory. And I'm sure there would be a name for that particular kind of rhetorical device.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah, it is interesting because Tolkien does use that frequently. Yeah. And I can. Other examples are popping up in my head, but they're popping up and disappearing before I can grab where they are. So I like. But it sounds so very familiar that that's the kind of thing that he does. Good question, though.

[James Tauber]

We told you about the amazing PPP community after our early break. If you're part of that community and want to enjoy something even more special, come join the Fellowship of the podcast on Patreon. You'll get to be in the best discord community around, one that includes host hangouts and even live episode recordings.

[Alan Sisto]

And that's not just to say, not dead episode recordings, but just live episode recordings. Right. We're setting up this, trying to give it a little bit more sense of. Of greatness by limiting it that way. Yeah. Anyway, folks, your support there is what enables me to work full time doing all of the shows. The ppp, Today's Tolkien Times, the Rings of Power. Wrap up when that comes back, James. I can't wait for that to happen in another eight months or so. As well as my streaming show, the PPP plays. And now when you join, you also get episode postscripts, ad free episodes, free merch, and a lot more.

[James Tauber]

And you can join these questions after Nightfall episodes or even appear as a guest in the north wing. Go to patreon.com prancingponypod to show your support and join the fellowship of the Podcast.

[Alan Sisto]

Now don't forget to rate interview on Apple Podcasts and Spotify. And please recommend us to your friends. You can do that even directly on Spotify. Now just share the show with your friends. James, who do we have up next as we continue questions after nightfall?

[James Tauber]

Next up is.

[Alan Sisto]

Welcome back.

[Sam]

Thank you. Yes, my next question is about our favorite colorful group of old men. If the Valar held a performance review for the five wizards using all the text information we have, who would get promoted, who would get. Get written up, and who would get quietly asked to seek opportunities elsewhere?

[Alan Sisto]

Good question, Sam.

[James Tauber]

When. At what point? When. When is this review happening?

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah, at what point in history is this review taking place?

[Sam]

Before the War of the Ring.

[Alan Sisto]

Before the War of the Ring, So after their arrival, which is circa third age 1,000, but. So maybe third age 2,000, 3,000. Because. James, that's a very good point.

[James Tauber]

Well, I'm wondering where it is relative to the Hobbit, because I have some thoughts on how they might view Gandalf's behavior. Because I like this idea that maybe they would not be impressed by Gandalf.

[Alan Sisto]

I don't think they necessarily were for a while.

[James Tauber]

Yeah. Yeah. I'm thinking they're kind of like, I don't know if this guy's right for the job.

[Alan Sisto]

You know, we sent him over there to oppose Sauron. He's just making buddies with the little.

[James Tauber]

Yeah, that Saruman guy. On the other hand, he's got upper management written all over him.

[Alan Sisto]

He really does. He gets something written all over him. Yeah, that's. That's. The timing is very important. You're right. Because, I mean, obviously if we're talking about end of the Third Age, after the War of the Ring, clearly Saruman's being fired. Gandalf has been. I mean, the answers are obvious at that point.

[James Tauber]

Also, how do we know this didn't happen and that's what happened to the. To the two Blue Wizards?

[Alan Sisto]

Well, that's the thing. Yeah. I think they might have been given their walking papers. It's just a headcount reduction, you know, it's something personal. It's rare.

[James Tauber]

Sizing. We're just right.

[Alan Sisto]

That's right. We're just right. Sizing. Here's your early retirement papers. What sort of severance they get. I don't know.

[James Tauber]

What career opportunities are there for ex magician. Fireworks.

[Alan Sisto]

Fireworks. Pyrotechnic artist. Absolutely.

[David]

Yeah.

[Alan Sisto]

I mean, when that review takes place is going to determine really the answer to some respect. Because I Don't know that until much later. Close to the War of the Ring, was it clear that Saruman was a bad guy and that Gandalf was going to be the only one to do his job? I think Radagast is the guy who takes three and a half hours for a bathroom break and you're like, where the heck did you go? And they're probably going to write him up, but he's not going to get fired. He's just sort of just, you know, wasting time. He's the prime example of that. I forget the name of the law, but the idea that you get promoted just above the level of your competence.

[James Tauber]

The Peter Principle.

[Alan Sisto]

The Peter Principle. Because, you know, whatever, man. All right, but you know, at least you did no harm. Yeah, I mean, the thing is, of course we know. So I say little, I mean nothing about the Blue Wizards, so we can't really judge their performance. But like James said, if we're talking about 100 years before the War of the Ring, I'm pretty sure they're looking at promoting Saruman. Yeah, Not Gandalf. Yeah, he's the one.

[James Tauber]

He's a go getter.

[Alan Sisto]

He is. He's a doer, right? He's absolutely a doer. He's studying the arts of the enemy in order to learn and to figure out how we can defeat him. Gandalf's just up there smoking pipe weed. I mean, really, why would you give that guy a promotion? But of course, you know, at the end of the day, as Tolkien himself points out, Gandalf is the only one who did the job. Right, right.

[David]

Yeah.

[James Tauber]

Well, you can imagine Nienna kind of having a soft spot for him, saying, you know what?

[Alan Sisto]

I think so. But you know, it's hard to believe that she would have that much sway. I mean, Manwe is the guy who's going to sign this thing.

[James Tauber]

Oh man, we probably doesn't even. He's not even aware. Come on.

[Alan Sisto]

He just gets the report. At the end of the day he's like, ah, the clouds.

[Arthur]

Literally.

[Alan Sisto]

Literally, head in the clouds. Well played, sir. Well played. He is the abs. He's the quintessential corner office CEO that doesn't understand a thing of what's actually going on in the day to day management of his company.

[James Tauber]

Yeah, let me know when you need the eagles. Just let me know when you need the eagles. Otherwise don't bother me.

[Alan Sisto]

He likes his, his elves. They're also known as the sycophants. I mean the Vanyar. OMG Manway. OMG Man Way first. That's a first season flashback for those of you who haven't listened to the show in a long time. Good question. A lot of fun really does depend on when in the third age. James, who's up next in the second round?

[James Tauber]

Next up is Katie.

[Alan Sisto]

Katie.

[Katie]

Hey. So I just had a really easy one this time. Which version of Galadriel is your favorite?

[Alan Sisto]

James, since we're going to be doing that together, I'm going to let you.

[James Tauber]

Well, I think we have to. I think we have to wait until we've done those episodes.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah, that's the thing. I mean, I think we might have a favorite now, but is it going to be the same in a few months when we're done?

[James Tauber]

I would like to postpone answering that question until we've. Okay, we've done the deep dive, but we'll keep that in mind as. As we go through that. We should rate them each after each, each version of Galadriel.

[Alan Sisto]

And because of that, Katie, I will allow an extra question in the second round if you want. We can go back to you, though, while you think about it. James, who's up next?

[James Tauber]

Next up is Anthony.

[Anthony]

Anthony, given Tolkien's history with the war and given what he saw and given how he had such great humanity, why would Tolkien, in your estimation, be so willing to have these characters endure such genuine hardships and truly unpleasant hardships when he had seen it firsthand? Most people do not go back and go, I saw misery and I want to inflict it on my characters, because most people go back and say, I saw misery and I learned from it. And I would like to move away from that to something better. Even the characters who I don't like, because as you saw, he went through pages about explaining how he looked for redemption in Gollum, and Sam foiled it. And there was all these moments of these forks in the road, and then some of these stories are just horrific about the torment that some of his characters suffer. So I would like your opinion as to why he would do that, given what he had been through. Thank you.

[Alan Sisto]

That's a good question. My first thought is actually that he went in the opposite direction of most of the other authors who experienced World War I. I mean, yes, he did drag his characters through some awful stuff. I mean, especially if your name is Turin Turambar or anybody connected to him at any degree. But if you look at his peers, like if you look at Wilfred Owen or Sigfrid Sassoon or so many other of the war poets, they went in this stark Brutal descriptions of war and all in an effort to make sure those evils never took place again. Like their purpose was, you know, war is futile. There's nothing worth doing this for. And it was very emotionally heavy and it was all about suffering. So I don't know that I would quite concede the aspect of the question that says that he was particularly embracing the awful, if you will. I think what he wanted to do was to show that people can endure these things and yet have hope, and yet have hope and yet find fellowship, and yet there, you know, there's light and yet there's a purpose. And I feel like that's maybe why he was more willing to put his characters in these difficult situations, to show all those different themes. I mean, I'm thinking of, I mean, Frodo and Sam going through, you know, the awful places that they went through in Mordor. And yet you look at Sam, you see Frodo, you see his hope disappearing. And a lot of that has to do with the Ring. But you see Sam and his hope doesn't disappear, not ever. He's still envisioning dipping his toes in the water with the cotton boys and he's just days away from Mount Doom itself. So that's showing this power of hope. But you also have other themes at play when it deals with the darkness and the terrible things. You think about the paths of the dead and you think about how this is Aragorn's fate and he needs to accomplish this and the importance in the big picture of what he does here and what he goes through. Or you think of Hurin and the fact that he sits there in a chair for 20 some odd years waiting to be let go. And it's not about his hope because he doesn't really have a lot. It's not about him, you know, coming around and getting out and having an Aragorn moment. But look at all the things that come as a result of that after. Right, That's. That may be more of a spa bimmy thing, you know, the shall prove it my instrument. But I feel like there's so many different themes at work. But it's always going to be one of those things that Tolkien's trying to get at with what his character is suffering. For the most part, sometimes it does feel like it's not clear, but for the most part, there's another point that he's trying to make. James, what do you think?

[James Tauber]

Well, it was interesting the number of times in that. Excellent answer. You use the two words and yet and I Almost feel like that. That sums it up, doesn't it?

[Alan Sisto]

Yet.

[James Tauber]

And yet Tyran being an interesting exception. Unless he comes back and.

[Alan Sisto]

Well, that's the thing. I mean, if the. Yeah, exactly. I mean, in.

[James Tauber]

That might be the end yet in Turin's case, boy, it sure might.

[Alan Sisto]

For those who don't know what James is referring to, one of the things that's in the histories of Middle Earth is the Dagor dagger at the end of battles, at the end of time. And in one of the versions of that, Turin is said to be the one who finally kills Morgoth. Like, he gets his hero moment for sure.

[James Tauber]

But it was interesting the number of times he said and yet. I think that's what Tolkien was wanting to get across more than anything. Hope is a big part of it, but also other themes as well, like pity and, you know. But the end yet is, I think, his way of dealing with what he went through and what he wanted to convey to others.

[Alan Sisto]

I think you're right. It's. There's a lot of layers to it, for sure. And I think sometimes, especially in stories like Turin's, you have to look hard for the. What is it that Tolkien is getting at with the End yet? But, yeah, he doesn't make his characters endure this for nothing, that's for sure. This isn't a purposeless, hopeless suffering for the sake of suffering. None of this is.

[James Tauber]

I also wonder if there was a shift as well. I don't know if his dealing with this sort of thing changed over time.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah, it might have.

[James Tauber]

I mean, it's still intriguing to me that the Turin story is nowhere in Lord of the Rings.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah. I mean, it's mentioned just the name. Right? You'll be named with the Elfrends. That's it.

[James Tauber]

He's an elf friend and he's good with swords.

[Alan Sisto]

Right.

[James Tauber]

That's all the only two things you find out about in Lord of the Rings.

[Alan Sisto]

And those things are true.

[James Tauber]

They're true. But in contrast to Beren and Luthien or the Fall, I mean, the Fall of Gondolin gets featured in the Hobbit.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah, exactly. And Baron. And Luthien gets half a chapter.

[James Tauber]

Exactly.

[Alan Sisto]

Aragorn's retelling.

[James Tauber]

So I don't know whether he was going through a phase then when he's like, I don't even want to deal with the. And yet. With. For Turin.

[Alan Sisto]

With Turin. Yeah.

[James Tauber]

But for the most part, I think. I think he was really wanting to explore that, the idea of.

[Alan Sisto]

And yet. I like that. All right, James, who else do we have here in the second round?

[James Tauber]

Next up, we have David.

[Alan Sisto]

David.

[David]

Right. So I'm going to come up with a more of a personal question for the two of you. I was brought on because, Alan, I know that you said that when you first read it, you skipped over the poems.

[Alan Sisto]

So that is correct.

[David]

I'm asking you what started you to read the poetry? And as a follow up, what poem do you sing to yourself?

[Alan Sisto]

What started getting me to read the poems? Almost embarrassed to say the answer to it. The answer is the podcast. I didn't skip all the poems every time in every reading before the podcast, but starting the podcast is the first time that I read every single one of them consistently throughout. And because it was my job, but also because I wanted to. I wanted to get the fullest experience. Whereas before, I was often focused on one or another aspect of the story, maybe, you know, the heroism or maybe the hobbits or something else. And so I didn't. I skipped little bits and pieces as for what poems run through my head or echo through my head, you know, it's. For me, it isn't any of the singing ones. It isn't Tom Bombadil, as great as his stuff is, I love. Because his prose is musical, right? His prose is poetry. It's wonderful. It's got such a rhythm to it. But I absolutely love the Rohirric alliterative verse. And so, you know, all those. And a lot of them are short pieces, you know, with Theoden's charge or Eomer's bit about more. Not over much, you know, that. That's, that's rich. But for me, it's the. The song of the Mounds of Mundberg. And I'll just, I'll read a couple lines of that because it's just so potent. We heard of the horns and the hills ringing the swords shining in the south Kingdom steeds went striding to the stoning land as wind in the morning war was kindled There Theoden fell thing mighty to his golden halls and green pastures in the northern fields never returning High Lord of the Host. And it goes on, and it names all the mighty men of Rohan who perished on the Pollendor. And so cool that it did this. They included the men of Gondor. They included all of these guys from the various fiefs of the South, Forlong and Dederfin and Duilin. And I love that, that a Rohirric song mentions the heroes of Gondor as. As brothers. And that one gets me every time. It just, it's just such a powerful piece, and it really does. Coming back to the last question about the suffering that Tolkien had seen really puts that in mind, because of all the people that he would have fought alongside who would have died. Not just his best friends, two of his best friends in the TCBS that had died in the war, but all of the men that would have been in his company in the Lancashire Fusiliers. I mean, his experience would have been exactly what the end of that poem talks about, about the river Red. Then it rolled roaring water foam dyed with blood flamed at sunset. And it's just you get this war imagery that, to me, echoes Tolkien's experience or at least harkens to it. And yet here it's about both the Rohirrim and the Men of Gondor. So that's the piece that I always am moved the most by in English, because Galadriel's Lament is probably my next favorite piece. And that one I hear all the time in my head because it's Quenya is just flipping beautiful. What about you, James? What's the one that kind of. You catch?

[James Tauber]

Well, so it's interesting that you bring up the fact that was the podcast that did it. Similar thing for me. And I want to draw, I think, an observation about this. I think when I really, really fell in love with the poems was when I was teaching through History of Middle Earth.

[Alan Sisto]

Oh, oh. So you got to see, like the development of them.

[James Tauber]

But it wasn't so much that. It was, I suspect, for a similar reason to you, once you read them out loud. It was the reading out loud that.

[Alan Sisto]

Changes it, doesn't it?

[James Tauber]

That made me think, I can never skip over these again. And in particular, you mentioned the alliterative verse. Reading the alliterative children of Huron out loud to the class. Oh, and not just that. It's interesting because it's not just that. It's also in the fragment that we get in Book of Lost Tales, we actually get Feanor's Oath in alliterative verse. It's the most. One of the most powerful things I've ever read in my life. And I think, again, it was that having to perform it.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah.

[James Tauber]

So I would say it's not even just reading it out loud. It's reading it out loud when there's an audience, because that really forces you to decide how you are going to recite it exactly.

[Alan Sisto]

You can't just read the words. You have to understand the phrasing. You have to study it enough to grasp the meaning and the way it's phrased and. Oh, yeah, it changes everything.

[James Tauber]

Yeah. So I would say similar for me. I started really, really appreciating it more when I taught history, Middle Earth. I do remember a couple of moments with the alliterative children of Huron.

[Alan Sisto]

But also.

[James Tauber]

That fragment that we get of the Thanos oath.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah.

[James Tauber]

Actually, it also convinced me of the utter appropriateness of the alliterative form for that sort of thing.

[Alan Sisto]

And by the way, that's in the lazy Balerian.

[James Tauber]

It is the lazer. Yeah. Okay. It was that. Yeah, that's what I thought at first. And then I was. Yeah, I confused myself. Incomparable.

[Alan Sisto]

It really is, isn't it? No, you're absolutely right. It is. It makes you wish that that's the version he'd published or that Christopher had published in the Silmarillion, because I don't.

[James Tauber]

Know that we otherwise get an actual spoken oath.

[Alan Sisto]

We don't.

[James Tauber]

I think that's the only place. I think that's the only place we get Feanor's words.

[Alan Sisto]

For some reason I'm thinking there is another but not alert version, but I don't remember where, but it just.

[James Tauber]

Yeah, it's.

[Alan Sisto]

Oh, it leaps off the page.

[James Tauber]

Yeah. Yeah. It's incredible.

[Alan Sisto]

It really is. That is a great answer because that is such a powerful, just jaw dropping piece.

[James Tauber]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Alan Sisto]

Good question.

[David]

I love the alliterative verse. I was writing poetry when I first read it when I was in ninth grade, so I was reading all the poetry and I started reading the Lord of the Rings to my younger brother.

[Alan Sisto]

That year in the ninth grade. I love that. But doesn't that change Exactly. It makes everything so different. Reading it out loud.

[David]

Yes. And it was awesome.

[Alan Sisto]

That is, if there's one single takeaway. I want listeners of the PPP to take from 10 years of the podcast. It's read the books aloud. Even if you're by yourself, read them aloud. It is such a different experience. The musicality of the text, the rhythm, the hidden alliterations that happen in the prose all the time. And until you read it aloud, I mean, literally, I'll be sitting here outlining the text of a chapter, studying it. I won't catch it, and then I'll be in the middle of reading it. And my. Wait a minute. How did I not catch that? Is. Wow, that's gorgeous. And it only happens when you read it out loud. So. Yeah. All right, well, James, before we go on to whoever's next on our second round, we want to come back to Katie and see if she has that backup question ready for us?

[Katie]

I do actually. And I want to thank the person who brought up Tulerin because this brought up something that's been circling in my mind for. For quite a bit. And I wanted to get your guys thoughts on Turin being and kind of suffering almost from being the oldest child and having oldest child syndrome where he's, you know, he has that strong sense of duty, responsibility, perfectionism, striving for high achievement. And ultimately, you know, he deals with his pride, but also the effect of his parents and Thingol's pride on him. Because, you know, we discuss a lot Denethor's impact on his son Boromir and on Faramir as well, but we don't. I never see it discussed. The fact that while Turin himself has a lot of pride and I have thoughts on that, you know, his parents were Morwen and Hurin and he was the ward of Thingol. And I have to think that that would have had an impact on him beyond him just being also the oldest child.

[Alan Sisto]

That's a very good question. I hadn't really thought about the role of Thingol as a foster father because certainly he did not. Turin, that is to say, did not get a lot of years under Hurin. I believe he was just before his ninth birthday, James, when Hurin went off to the battle of unnumbered tears.

[James Tauber]

Sounds about right. Yeah.

[Alan Sisto]

It might have been a little after nine. I don't remember. There was something. His ninth birthday somehow comes to mind. His mother, not the warmest of women. You know, we've talked about her before. Incredible character, incredible strength, the love that she clearly has for him in order to sacrifice and to send him away. But at the same time, she was never very touchy feely. You know, I mean, there are moments when he is a kid, you just get the feeling like, wow, she's treating him like an adult and he's nine. Like show the boy some love. So there are a lot of different parenting things that we can say like, oh, you know, the shapes, Turin. But I don't think I'd considered. I'd considered Thingols and Thingol, of course, we know really definitely had early on a very strong and often overly strong sense of pride. But I think by the time he gets to Turin that that's gone. Not gone, but it's a lot less than it had been. Right. Baron coming back with his stump really broke Thingal in a way of this overarching sense of pride. And it was, I think a lot of. I've treated men poorly. I'D be happy to take Turin in. So I don't know how much pride he would have inherited from Thingol versus Huron and Morwen, or how much he just had to be strong on his own because he's the only human in this community. I mean, there's so many factors. I mean, can you imagine? You're a boy of nine years old, you're the only human in this entire place. And, yeah, no wonder he chases Cyrus off a cliff. I mean, I'm of the club. Cyrus deserved it, but, you know, so. Yeah, that's a good question. James, what are your first thoughts?

[James Tauber]

You brought up exactly what I was, which is being the only human and just the almost pressure that that puts on. I do want to ask Alan, are you an oldest?

[Alan Sisto]

I'm an only. I'm an only. So I'm both the oldest and the youngest and the middle.

[James Tauber]

It's funny because I was going to pick you for an oldest, but I don't know if that. I don't know if being. If it qualifies as being the oldest.

[Alan Sisto]

I think. I mean, I do have some of the. I feel like I have more of those traits, like the overarching sense of.

[James Tauber]

Justice because I'm the oldest. I'm the oldest.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah. The sense of responsibility, all of those things. I certainly, you know, the youngest that I know are very carefree, and I've never been that. So I feel like I probably lean more towards oldest in terms of my personality type. I wonder how much of that was true or that Tolkien would have been aware. Like, how much was that a part of the consciousness of the time that Tolkien was writing, though? Like, we think of that now because it's very commonplace to consider birth order.

[James Tauber]

It's an interesting thing that maybe that was not considered.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah.

[James Tauber]

In those different. Yeah. I don't know.

[Alan Sisto]

That I'd have to look into. And that's a whole meta question.

[James Tauber]

But one would have imagined that Tolkien did experience a lot of. Whether he was conscious of that or.

[Alan Sisto]

Not, 100% as the oldest himself and.

[James Tauber]

Being of an orphan. Yeah.

[Alan Sisto]

Doubly orphaned. Right. I mean, he loses his father at the age of three and his mother at the age of 11, I think. Or 12.

[Arthur]

Or 12.

[James Tauber]

Yeah.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah. Awful.

[James Tauber]

But looking after Hillary.

[Alan Sisto]

And then looking after his mom as she got ill. Yeah. As well. Yeah.

[James Tauber]

But I do think, coming back to the question, I do think. I do think that Turin being the only human would have made him. I mean, we see it makes him defensive.

[Alan Sisto]

Oh, yeah.

[James Tauber]

Yeah. Which can cause pride as a as almost as a coping mechanism.

[Alan Sisto]

Yes, exactly. It's a defense.

[James Tauber]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Alan Sisto]

It's like he wants to fit in, but he also wants to stand out. You know, he really does walk that fine line. And you see that, I think, most clearly in that incident with Cyrus, you know, coming back and being mistreated and spoken poorly.

[James Tauber]

Yeah.

[Alan Sisto]

Arthur, I know you wanted to jump in on this real quick. Fire away.

[Arthur]

Yeah. I think one of the things that occurred to me. We're talking all about how Thingol took him in and treated him as a foster son, and he was exposed to all these elves and everything. But if Thingol was his foster father, Melian was his foster mother. Yeah, but then again, no one ever listens.

[Tom]

No one ever listen to Melian.

[Sam]

Yes.

[Alan Sisto]

And that's the punchline of every Melian line ever. Yeah.

[Arthur]

But one would wonder about. We could speculate about what influence she might have had over him or what influence she could have that might have changed things.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah, that's a very good point. Certainly when he came back and was not under the power of the curse when he was in Doriath.

[James Tauber]

Will we have to wait for the book to get Tom's thoughts on this question?

[Alan Sisto]

Oh, Katie wanted Tom's thoughts.

[James Tauber]

No, I want Tom.

[Alan Sisto]

Hey, Tom. Tom, I see that multiple people want your thoughts on this as well. Can you pipe in here?

[Tom]

Well, keep in mind that the time I've spent with Turin in the last couple of years has all been before the Lord of the Rings.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah.

[Tom]

So it's all from, you know, the Book of Lost Tales, you know, through the 1937 Silmarillion. And I think Turin is. Is. His story is in many ways very different then, because in the time before he is demonstrably in love with Vindrilas, he is. As opposed to afterwards, when it gets a little bit harder to tell, the point where the lay of Children of Horan stops is. It's like, you know, you've got this. Everybody in Nargothrond is happy, but Turin, Finduilas and Gwindor, because they've got this triangle thing going on and nobody's talking about it. Also, you know, as you go forward through, like. Like in Turambar the Foal, okay. When you get the prophecy about Turin returning, he's just there. He isn't the one who kills Melkor there. It's Fianwe. And Fianwe, in essence, has to destroy the universe to destroy Melkor.

[James Tauber]

Yeah.

[Tom]

Okay.

[Alan Sisto]

Very Ragnarok sort of moment.

[Tom]

Exactly.

[Alan Sisto]

In.

[Tom]

It's not until you get to the sketch and presumably, therefore, it would have been in the lay of the Children of Horn if he finished it, since that's why he was writing the sketch, to give the background.

[Alan Sisto]

Right, right.

[Tom]

It's. That's. At that point it says that he comes back and he kills Melkor and Turin and his family are avenged. But then when you move to the next step, which is in the Quetta Noldorino and when you. And in the contest, the 1937 Silmarion in his. His position has got even bigger.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah.

[Tom]

Because now it's not just. He's not just avenger of his family, he's the avenger of all men. So his, you know, his position just keeps getting bigger and bigger as the whole thing goes on in parallel with Feanor's.

[Alan Sisto]

Oh. That I hadn't caught. But you're right.

[Tom]

In that prophecy. But that second prophecy of Mendoz, you get the first. The first paragraph talks about Turin.

[David]

Yeah.

[Tom]

And the second, you know, in the next paragraph talks about Feodor. Yeah. So you get the two problem children.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah, you do.

[Tom]

Of Illuvitar, you know, you know, and, and, and, and, and what? Guess what? Feanor comes back. They let it. Mendos lets him out. His mother probably kicked him out and said, you go open that Silmaril.

[Alan Sisto]

That's right. You go crack open.

[Tom]

The silmarils are recovered. They're given back to Feanor. The oath is fulfilled.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah.

[Tom]

And Feanor unlocks them and the world can then be. Can then be remade. So, you know, both. You get both Turin and Feanor, kind of one clears the way for the. The healing of Arda and the remaking of Arda and the other one, you.

[Alan Sisto]

Know, kind of empowers it.

[Tom]

Yeah, empowers it.

[Alan Sisto]

I like that, Tom. I don't think I'd caught that.

[Tom]

Well, it's only because you were probably not listening to me at Westmot or Mythmot.

[Alan Sisto]

Well, I didn't go to Westmut this year, so that might be.

[Tom]

Well, that's.

[Alan Sisto]

That's right.

[Tom]

Okay.

[Alan Sisto]

Well, couldn't.

[Sam]

Yeah.

[Tom]

Okay. So. But anyway, we'll see. There you go. And James and I were talking at the same time, I think.

[James Tauber]

So does that make us the problem.

[Alan Sisto]

Tom and James, the problem children of Illumina?

[Tom]

Yes, we are. We clearly are the Sage of the south and the Beast of the east, you know, so. And I don't have wings, and. Which is why I plummet instead of fly.

[Alan Sisto]

That's right.

[Tom]

So. But yeah, I mean, Turin before is very different.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah. Yeah, that's true.

[Tom]

I hadn't thought about the old child angle. It makes sense. I think he probably feels more. Because in before the Lord of the Rings, there is no Lawlith.

[Alan Sisto]

Right.

[Tom]

Okay. She's invented afterwards.

[James Tauber]

Correct.

[Tom]

So there's only Nianor, whom he either never meets until.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah.

[Tom]

Or he. She was an infant when he left or something like that. And so I don't know how much he would have felt the oldest child thing before Lalith came along.

[Sam]

Right, right.

[Alan Sisto]

But after she came along, he certainly came along.

[Tom]

That changes.

[Alan Sisto]

That's.

[Tom]

And that's afterwards. We get that in the Narn. I think so before. It's different. But he does feel the burden of being the heir.

[Alan Sisto]

Yes, yes. The Lord of Dor Lomin.

[Tom]

Right. He does feel that burden. He wants to avenge his father, talks about that. He. I mean, he. When he goes back to the door, Loman, and he shows up and it's like, you know, the. The moment when he reveals himself and everybody goes, you know.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah. And.

[Tom]

And he kills them.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah. Then he kills them all. The ones he doesn't kill, he just sets the house on fire. Right, right, right, right.

[Tom]

Yeah, but he.

[Alan Sisto]

I was.

[Tom]

But it was still. It was still was a bad thing. And he admitted that because, I mean, you. You kill the man who has just said, hey, come on in and have dinner.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah. Violating all the rules. That.

[Tom]

That breaks all the rules.

[James Tauber]

Yeah.

[Tom]

But, yeah, he did clearly feel the burden of. Of being the heir. At the same time, he had opportunities to go back.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah.

[Tom]

That he didn't take for one reason or another. I mean, he could have gone back after he. The ideal opportunity would have been after he left, but he's, you know, afraid, you know, Thingol's gonna, you know, send Mama message. And I have a more favorable opinion of Morwen than you do, but I wouldn't want her to be mad at me if.

[Alan Sisto]

No, that's the thing. I mean, I have a very high opinion of Mormon. She just. In terms of warmth, she's limited. But, you know, good stuff. Good stuff. Tom, thank you for that input. I really appreciate it. James, how many more questions we have here in the second round?

[James Tauber]

Two more. Two more.

[Alan Sisto]

I think we get them both. All right.

[James Tauber]

Fire away, Mark.

[Alan Sisto]

So my first question was about games. Now I want to ask about adaptations. Ooh, fun. Love adaptations. Two recent adaptations were not exactly stellar hits. The Amazon's Ring for Power and the War. They're Here movies. And I wonder what your thoughts are. Does the Tolkien fan base have such high expectations? Both because of our love of the text and the Peter Jackson trilogies that.

[Sam]

Future adaptations are sort of doomed to fail.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah, there's a measuring stick that's almost impossible to meet. I mean, it's not just the faithfulness to the pros. I mean, because I was there, Gandalf, 3,000 years ago when people were criticizing Peter Jackson in 2001, criticizing the decision to use Arwen instead of Glorfindel and all these other things. But as cinema goers, as folks who are maybe fans of Tolkien via the films, the 2001 trilogy was absolutely the gold standard to measure things by. Even if as somebody who had some issues with it in terms of lore, I found I still think the BBC radio adaptation is the gold standard, personally. But it does make any future adaptation face an uphill battle. The thing you have to remember about both the adaptations you mentioned, the Rings of Power and even the War of the Rohirrim, is that both are really a different medium. Even the War of the Rohirrim because it's film, but it was specifically anime. So it's going to tell the story in a different way than a traditional film. But I want to talk briefly about Rings of Power. It's got to do something different in that every one hour long show has to be plus or minus two or three minutes, has to follow arcs that go in and out and meet those beats of a studio television show and yet still tell a coherent story over eight hours. That is a tough thing to do, even if you hadn't had the Lord of the Rings to compare it to. Did it do a great job of that? Not particularly. James and I and Sara have done two seasons on the Rings of Power. On the Rings of Power wrap up. And I think we've given this. I think I gave season one like a C or maybe even a C minus. I gave season two an improved grade. I think I gave it a solid B. It might have been a little higher had they just decided to drop the whole Harfoots and East and Rune storyline altogether. And it looks like we might get a little of that in season three as they're going to be focusing more on Numenor. I'm really looking forward to that and seeing if the show can redeem itself in my eyes. I know there are plenty of people who love the show as is. And that's the thing about adaptations. There is no objectively bad or objectively good measure. Really not much. I mean, you can get to a point. There is a bar that's at zero. The adaptation that was represented in the game Gollum about three years ago, two and a half years ago was bad enough that I don't think anybody's gonna say that was a great game. But other than that, really, I mean, people. Some people argue that the Rankin and Bass films are great adaptations. I don't happen to think that Return of the King is. The Hobbit's not bad. But again, those are all going to be subjective, individualized opinions. So somebody's. They're going to be people who love the Hobbit trilogy just as much as the Lord of the Rings trilogy when objectively. Objectively, he says they're not as good cinema. But I can't say that objectively. Right. What do you think, James?

[James Tauber]

It's interesting you contrasted games and adaptations, because I still think LOTRO is the best adaptation.

[Alan Sisto]

Oh, 100%. Yeah. Yeah.

[James Tauber]

Yeah. I mean, it's interesting because as I was. As I've been preparing for our Tal Elmar deep dive, I've thought about whether Tal Elmar would work as a. Oh.

[Alan Sisto]

Oh.

[James Tauber]

I think it would be as a premise. As a premise for a TV show, and I actually think it might, for reasons we can get into when we talk about Tel Elma. One of the contrasts between that and, say, what Rings of Power is trying to do is I just feel Rings of Power is too. They're trying to take on too much.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah. It's too big a scope.

[James Tauber]

I would rather there be a lot of smaller stories to tell.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah, I think you're right. Not only are they biting off such a large chunk of time, they're biting off a large chunk of time that doesn't have a lot of text written for it.

[James Tauber]

But you've got to cover so many things and so many different characters and locations and stuff. That's why it's just a small. A small series about Tal Elma would be a lot. I mean, you'd obviously have to make stuff up, but you'd have the George R.R. martin problem of what do you do when the books run out? But. And hopefully it would go better than that ended up.

[Alan Sisto]

Well, yeah, hopefully. But we'll see.

[James Tauber]

We'll see what happens with Hunt for God. I think. I think Hunt for Golem's going to be a really interesting test.

[Alan Sisto]

It will be an interesting test. Yeah.

[James Tauber]

Because if that fails, then things could. We could be in trouble in terms of studios being willing to fund adaptations and stuff like that. If it does well, that might be an indication that, yes, if done right, Tolkien adaptations can succeed.

[Alan Sisto]

My concern is it'll probably still do well, even if it isn't. I mean, I say that because the Hobbit films performed well at the box office. They didn't perform as well as the first three, but they performed surprisingly well considering where they ranked in terms of like critical reviews and things along those lines. When you compare the number of Academy Awards that the first trilogy was nominated for and won, versus the total number of nominations for the Hobbit trilogy, which was uno for a special effects in one of the three films, the objective standards, if there are any, suggest that the Hobbit films were not even half as good and yet they performed nearly as well at the box office. So I think with Andy Serkis name behind it, Peter Jackson's name behind it, especially if they bring in Ian McKellen and, you know, some of the others, I think they stand a chance of performing well, even if it's not great. But it'll have to at least be decent for it to achieve that. I don't know. We'll see. I think you're right, though. Studios will back away if this is a commercial flop. So we'll have to see how that goes. Adaptations alone could be a whole episode or a whole season, really, because you're right. James, you mentioned. I'd mentioned the Gollum game, you mentioned Lord of the Rings online, I'd mentioned the BBC radio adaptations. Those are not traditional audio visual adaptations. They are a video game or video games plural, and they're a radio adaptation. So, you know, I think we have to broaden our understanding of what an adaptation is, even to the point where I still argue that an audiobook is an adaptation because every reader is going to read it differently, you know, and if you get the pronunciations or you get the emphasis in a different way, it tells the story in a different way. And every, every narrator is going to make a difference. So a lot less flexibility on those adaptations, mind you, but still. So. Good question. And we have one more and then we're going to wrap it up for tonight. Who do we have left?

[James Tauber]

Let's finish up with Tom.

[Tom]

Tom, I noticed this. This isn't really a question, but I think it would be interesting to see what you guys have to say about it is right in the Lord of the Rings, it's all numenor this, numenor that, oh, long lost numenor the Downfall and blah, blah, blah, Westerness. But then you read in like the, in the Fall of Numenore. I don't mean. I mean in the short thing, not the whole not the book.

[Alan Sisto]

Right.

[James Tauber]

Not the Brian Sibley book, but the. Yeah.

[Tom]

You learn that Numenor. What was not what they originally called it, that not only was it originally called Endor.

[Alan Sisto]

Right.

[Tom]

The Land of Gift, or Vinya, the New Land.

[Alan Sisto]

Elena. Star Wars. Yeah.

[Tom]

But that Numenor was what the men began to call it when they started to feel their pride.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah.

[Tom]

It was the name they gave it in their pride because it is, in a sense, calling it the West. Wait a minute. No, you're not the West. It's those other guys there a bit further west. And so that. That whole name, Numenor actually starts out as a bad sign. It does, because it wasn't the elves who called it that, it was the men.

[Alan Sisto]

It's also not a place that you want to look back on and go, oh, what a great place that was. I mean, not. Not in the last several hundred years. The ideal was great and what it was initially. But. Yeah.

[Tom]

And also. And James, since you're a big elvish language kind of geek, and I say that in only the best sense.

[Alan Sisto]

Oh, yeah. That's always meant. That's like a. Calling somebody a pedant here is a compliment.

[Tom]

And even to their face. And so there's this point where Aldarian founds. What's the name of the. The haven he found?

[Alan Sisto]

Vignolande.

[Tom]

Which means New Haven. Yes, Arthur, Connecticut. And which means New Haven. But if Vinya was originally the name of Numenor, was what the men originally called Numenor, and we're calling it that in his. In Eldarion's time. It's kind of like, you know, the Numenor Haven, you know, and so it's more than just, ah, we're building a New Haven, so let's call it New Haven. Like, these guys have got to be more imaginative than that.

[Alan Sisto]

That's true. This isn't like hobbits and calling it the hill. Exactly.

[Tom]

The water. Exactly. Exactly.

[Alan Sisto]

The Old Forest. Yeah.

[Tom]

But anyway, I. I just. I just thought that that was interesting because I looked on Parfadella, you know, to see what they said about Vinya and Vignolande, and they don't. They don't mention anything. And you make a connection between Vinya, meaning Numenor, and Vignola as being more than just. Oh, yeah, they settled it. So they called it the new.

[James Tauber]

The.

[Tom]

The New Haven.

[Alan Sisto]

New Haven, you know, So I think.

[Tom]

It'S like the Numenor Haven. It's like Numenor east, kind of like the Fillmore east, you know, and but anyway, that's really all I got. So.

[Alan Sisto]

Great now. Good stuff, Tom. Thank you.

[Tom]

Sure.

[Alan Sisto]

Folks, thank you for joining us for another episode of the Prancing Pony podcast. Please come back next week when James and I begin our planned four episode look at a deep cut from the history of Middle Earth in the story of Tal Elmar.

[James Tauber]

Yeah, it's. It's one of my favorite of the fragmentary stories.

[Alan Sisto]

Yes, it really is.

[James Tauber]

And it's a great follow on from Eldarion and Arendus because it's. It's the only sort of conventional narrative story. Yeah, the two of them are the only conventional narrative stories we get for the Second Age.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah, yeah.

[James Tauber]

Although of course, this is strikingly told from another point of view, namely a fascinating point of view, the men of Middle Earth. So we get this story that's not a. Not from the point of view of the elves or the Numenoreans, but. But from men. And I'm really looking forward to exploring.

[Alan Sisto]

And not high men. This isn't like, oh, you know, these are the Numenoreans that have founded a place over here. These are the inhabitants of the land whose lands are being taken by the Numenoreans. It's a very interesting look at Tolkien's perspective on things like imperialism and conquest and natural resources, but we'll get into that. It's going to be a lot of.

[James Tauber]

Fun with quite a lot of nuance though, because 100%, it's really interesting. Anyway, Alan and I want to thank members of Team ppp, Jordan Reynolds, the editor Barleyman, Becca Davis, social media manager, Casey Hilsey, event and Patreon community coordinator Katie McKenna, graphic artist Megan Collins and website guru Phil Dane.

[Alan Sisto]

Speaking of website guru Phil Dean, take a minute to check out theprancingponypodcast.com that's where you'll find show notes, outtakes and Prancing Pony pondering. And you'll also find our online storefront there where you can get all sorts of cool PPP merch, including all of the amazing chapter art that Megan's been doing for us for three plus seasons. We're all about the books here at.

[James Tauber]

The Prancing Pony podcast, so be sure to also visit our library page. We try to make sure that any book we've mentioned on the show is linked there for you to purchase. We do get a small amount of compensation when you make your purchase, so thank you for that.

[Alan Sisto]

Indeed. And we also want to thank our patrons at the Cirdan's contribution to here. I'll start with demay in Alaska, Chad in Texas, Lance in New Jersey, Joseph in Michigan, Kathy from North Carolina, Brian in the uk, Jerry from Washington, Irwin from the Netherlands, Ben in Minnesota, Anthony in Texas, Zaksu in Illinois, Joshua in Massachusetts, Lucy in Texas, Erica in Texas, Vivian in California and James in Massachusetts.

[James Tauber]

There's also Ann in Kentucky, Sean in New Jersey, Mason in California, Maureen from Massachusetts, Olivia in London, Robert in Arizona, Nick in Wisconsin, Lewis in South Carolina, Thomas in Germany, Craig in California, Kevin in Massachusetts, Joe in Maryland, Dee Scott in California, Jeffrey in Michigan and Paul in Colorado. Thank you all so very much for your support indeed.

[Alan Sisto]

Thank you.

[James Tauber]

Now make sure you don't miss any episodes of the Prancing Pony Podcast. Subscribe now through subscribers, Spotify, Apple Podcasts, Amazon Music, or your favorite podcast app.

[Alan Sisto]

And one last thing. As always, don't forget to send your thoughts, comments, and most of all, your easiest questions to barliman@theprancingpony podcast.com that leaves you out, Tom.

[James Tauber]

Now, Barliman does have a lot of mail to sort through, so we'll try to get to you just as soon as we're able.

[Alan Sisto]

As always, though, this has been far too short a time to spend amongst such excellent and admirable listeners and guests. But until next time, may you rekindle.

[James Tauber]

Hearts in a world that grows chill.

[Alan Sisto]

New Year New Me.

[Katie]

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[Alan Sisto]

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[Katie]

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