Transcript

Alan Sisto (0:00)

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James Tauber (1:26)

Hank. What's going on? We haven't worked a case in years.

Alan Sisto (1:29)

I just bought my car at Carvana and it was so easy. Too easy.

James Tauber (1:33)

Think something's up?

Alan Sisto (1:34)

You tell me. They got thousands of options, found a great car at a great price and it got delivered the next day.

James Tauber (1:41)

It sounds like Carvana just makes it easy to buy your car, Hank.

Alan Sisto (1:45)

Yeah, you're right. Case closed.

James Tauber (1:48)

Buy your car today on Carvana. Delivery fees may apply.

Alan Sisto (2:05)

Good evening, little masters and welcome to episode 397 of the Prancing Pony podcast where I have a strange belief that the old should be treated kindly and with courtesy.

James Tauber (2:17)

That's not self serving in any way, is it, Alan?

Alan Sisto (2:19)

Are you calling me old, James? You start with the old jokes already.

Summary

The Prancing Pony Podcast

Episode 397 – Rebel, Rebel

Release Date: January 25, 2026
Host: Alan Sisto
Co-host: James Tauber
Special guest: Patron Joe Haffman

Episode Overview

Main Theme:
Alan and James launch an in-depth, four-part exploration of "Tal-Elmar," one of Tolkien’s rare Second Age narratives, focusing on its unique "outsider" perspective. They explain why, although the story is a true "deep cut" from the History of Middle-earth series, it’s highly relevant to ongoing themes in the podcast, particularly its profound engagement with issues of colonialism, cultural identity, and the nature of history and memory in Middle-earth. The episode expertly mixes robust textual analysis, pop culture humor, and insightful moral discussion—all in the friendly, lively tone of two Tolkien friends bantering at a pub.

Key Discussion Points and Insights

1. Listener Spotlight: North Wing with Joe Haffman

[05:03 – 12:55]

Joe’s Background:
- Retired industrial engineer, avid birder (29 countries), Tolkien enthusiast since the early ‘70s.
- Family is supportive: son joined for film releases, wife finds Tolkien’s names confusing.
Favorite Tolkien Works:
- Book Two of LOTR (Council of Elrond, textual “ruins,” famous Dwarves); Father Christmas Letters for non-Legendarium.
Memorable Tolkien Experience:
- Attending the PPP Moot in Marquette for "Art of the Manuscript."
Speed Round:
- Favorite character: Frodo (“the finest hobbit in the Shire” [10:47]).
- Favorite First Age character: Ecthelion (“deserves the elf equivalent of a medal of honor” [10:56]).
- Place to visit: The Shire (preferably after Sam’s restoration).
- Balrog wings: metaphorical (“when Gandalf said ‘fly, you fools,’ he didn’t mean literally fly…” [11:49]).
- Favorite dwarf: Gimli (“From the books. The movies are okay, but he was more comical there” [12:00]).
- Mary or Pippin? “Definitely a Merry.”
- Who to take into Mordor: Feanor (“I’m doomed with either one” [12:35]).
Tone: Urgent, warm, and humorous; frequent puns and lighthearted jabs.

2. Corrections and Context

[13:08 – 14:04]

Alan corrects historical slip-ups from episode 392:
- "Phoney war" belongs to WWII, not WWI.
- Archduke Ferdinand was assassinated in Sarajevo (Bosnia), not Serbia.

3. Introduction to "Tal-Elmar"

[14:04 – 27:01]

Why this Story, Why Now?
- "Tal-Elmar" is a rare Second Age short narrative told not from the perspective of Numenoreans or Elves, but from native "wild men."
- The story provides one-of-a-kind insight into Middle-earth’s colonial dynamics.
- Although published only as part of The Peoples of Middle-earth (History of Middle-earth Vol. 12), James and Alan tie it closely to their just-completed deep dive on "Aldarion and Erendis" to expand the conversation on Numenorean colonization.
Tolkien’s Intent and Dating:
- Written ca. 1955 (amid pressure of The Lord of the Rings publication!), with Tolkien’s own 1968 note describing it as “the beginnings of a tale that sees the Numenoreans from the point of view of the Wild Men” [20:23].
- Tolkien left it unfinished, having pondered whether it could be folded in to established legendarium geography/history, or must remain “vaguely linked.”
Setting—Time and Place:
- The geography is ambiguous: Is the action near the Isen or Morthond rivers? This ambiguity leads to interpretative mystery—and fun for Tolkien lore nerds.
- If post–“permanent havens” (Second Age 1200), the story could fit almost anywhere in the 1800-year span to the Downfall.
Segment Tone:
- Analytical and candid, with playful ribbing about Tolkien’s impulsiveness (“procrastination!” [20:09]) and his ongoing struggle with worldbuilding consistency.

4. Deep Dive: Opening of "Tal-Elmar"

[27:01 – 54:29]

A. Textual Dissection

[27:01 – 44:08]

Opening Sentence Analysis:
- “In the days of the Dark Kings, when a man could still walk dry-shod from the rising of the sun to the sea of its setting…”
  - “Dark Kings” vs. earlier drafts’ “Great Kings”: tonal shift from ambiguous greatness to explicit tyranny.
  - Playful banter about possible meanings—Nazgûl? Local chieftains?
  - Note the “dry-shod” phrase: possible nod to pre–Downfall flat-earth cosmology.
- Early draft reference to “Rome to York” (a strongly non-Middle-earth allusion) reveals the tale’s original “mythic prehistory” mood.
Character Sketches:
- Hazad Longbeard: “Retired rugby hooker,” “human dwarf”—17+ sons, legendary beard.
- Tal Elmar: Hazad’s youngest son, stands out for physical and temperamental differences—tall, fair-skinned, “flint-eyed,” gentle but strong and memorable for rare anger (“Flint Eye” [28:44]).
Cultural Value Cues:
- The people of Agar: Swarthy, brusque, not generally given to reverence toward age or difference.
- Tal Elmar’s “strange” belief: treat the old kindly and with courtesy, “let it be done with respect, for they have seen many years…” [47:10].
- This marks him as both an outsider and an unacknowledged culture hero.

B. Thematic Explorations

[44:08 – 54:49]

Pride and Outsider Identity:
- Two kinds of pride (self-assurance vs. lording over others)—Tal Elmar exemplifies the former.
Family Dynamics:
- Tal Elmar serves Hazad out of love, not obligation—unusual in Agar’s culture.
Foreshadowing:
- Alan and James speculate this setup is “laying groundwork” for future character arcs/plot turns—especially Tal Elmar’s sense of difference and justice.

Notable Quotes:

James on pride:
“There’s sort of two kinds of pride that Tolkien’s exploring here. The pride of a master… and the pride of one of alien race whom fate has cast away among an ignoble people and there bound him in servitude” [48:07].
Alan on treatment of the old:
“This is a philosophy common for our culture… but in Agar, it’s so strange nobody understands where he got it from” [52:12].

5. Hazad’s Heritage and the “Fell Folk”

[54:49 – 73:55]

A. Hazad’s Parentage and the “Fell Folk”

[57:49 – 73:22]

Hazad’s mother, Elmar, as captured ‘Fell Folk’:
- The “Fell Folk” are an eastern people—tall, fair, flint-eyed, with “weapons made by demons in the fiery hills” [59:49].
- The hosts debate possible identities:
  - Edain (kinsfolk of Numenoreans)?
  - “Easterlings” (but descriptions don’t fit)?
  - Northmen? Numenoreans?
- Geography and migration complicate speculation: Isen/Morthond vs. Langstrand/Pelargir etc.
The “Demons in the fiery hills”:
- Likely an example of wild men viewing advanced metallurgy and weaponry as supernatural.
- Possibly a mythic memory of elves or dwarves from their view as “demons.”
Migration Motifs:
- The “Fell Folk” aren’t military invaders but migrants, with wagons, cattle, women—again raising questions about who/what made them move.

B. Intergenerational Trauma

Hazad’s mother Elmar’s fate foreshadows Tal-Elmar's outsider status—and prophecies of vengeance and doom attached to mixed heritage.

Notable Quotes

James, on the “Fell Folk:”
“There’s a strong case to be made they’re Edain of some kind… but the key is, if this is after the founding of permanent havens…” [63:34].

6. Elmar’s Lament and Prophecy: Colonialism, Rights, and Personal Loss

[77:34 – 104:33]

Elmar’s defiance:
- Her speech to Buldar is both deeply personal and overtly political: she owes him nothing even though he “saved” her; her heart remains with her family (“you have torn me from my people and from him that I loved and from the child I bore him” [81:34]).
- She declares Buldar's people “base and unlovely” and vows: “My thought far elsewhere, and this vengeance I will have—that while my body is kept here in exile, the lot of all this folk shall worsen and thine most. But when my body goes to the alien earth… one shall arise who is mine alone… and with his arising shall come the end of thy people and the downfall of your king.” [77:34]
Layers of Colonialism and Cycles of Dispossession:
- Buldar justifies his own people’s right to the land by “ancient” claim—Elmar retorts they themselves had driven out a yet earlier people (the Drúedain). “Are there not… wild folk in the caves of the mountains who once roamed here ere ye swart folk came hither and hunted them like wolves?” [77:34]
- Alan and James emphasize Tolkien’s anti-colonialist sympathies, supported by direct letter citations and careful readings of similar themes in the Legendarium (e.g., Tar-Palantir, Akallabêth, Faramir's “not a mistress of many slaves” [95:45]).
Personal vs. Political:
- Alan: “Her refusal to love has nothing to do with the fact you stole the land for the Druidain. That’s bad—but that’s not why I don’t love you.” [98:03]
- James: “This can get lost in discussions about rights—it’s important to remember they’re individuals who are harmed by these actions.” [98:13]
Foreshadowing for Tal-Elmar:
- The prophecy of “one who is mine alone” setting in motion the “downfall of your king”—is this Sauron, or a local “North King”? Hosts debate possible narrative trajectories, noting that Tolkien leaves it unresolved.

7. Language, Memory, and Heritage

[104:33 – 106:58]

Transmission of Song and Language:
- Elmar teaches her children (especially Hazad) songs in her native tongue, which foreshadows Tal-Elmar’s much-later recognition of the Numenorean language.
- The theme: “Genetic memory” of language ties past, present, and future; echoes Tolkien’s own family reverence and loss (Alan draws connections to Tolkien’s grief for his mother).

8. Listener Q&A: "Lesser Known Númenórean Rulers"

[109:33 – 116:08]

Listeners want to know: Which lesser-known rulers would Alan and James like to know more about?
- Focus on the shadowy “in between” period after Aldarion and Ancalime but before Tar-Minastir—especially Telperien, the rarely mentioned queen.
- Alan: “Tells us that the line needed time to recover from Aldarion and Erendis—generational trauma ends only with Telperien’s death.”

Notable Quotes (with Timestamps & Speaker Attribution)

On Pride
- James: “There’s sort of two kinds of pride that Tolkien’s exploring here. The pride of a master… and the pride of one of alien race…” [48:07]
On the 'Strange' Belief
- Alan: “This is a philosophy common for our culture… but in Agar, it’s so strange nobody understands where he got it from.” [52:12]
On Anti-Colonialism
- Alan: “White skins and bright eyes are no warrant for driving a people off their lands—in other words, your race does not entitle you to commit genocide or steal the land. That’s… wow.” [89:20]
- James (on Tolkien’s letters): “He says, ‘I should have hated the Roman Empire in its day, as I do.’ …He still does!” [91:06]
On Perspective and Empathy
- James: “It’s important… to never forget, they’re people. These are real people… that are treated cruelly.” [98:13]
On Unfinished Narrative
- James: “It’s fun to speculate… but we can't look in the answers in the back of the book.” [103:27]

Timestamps for Major Segments

05:03 - North Wing segment with Joe Haffman
13:08 - Corrections and intro to “Tal-Elmar”
14:04 - Why “Tal-Elmar,” narrative context, dating
27:01 - Detailed reading and analysis of first paragraph(s)
54:49 - Analysis of Hazad’s family, the ‘Fell Folk,’ and migration
77:34 - Elmar’s lament, prophecy, and deeper colonial themes
109:33 - Listener Q&A: Númenórean Rulers

Episode Highlights & Memorable Moments

Frequent pop culture silliness (Talladega Nights, ZZ Top, rugby references), always woven into dense Tolkien lore chat.
Alan and James' “rabbit holes” into historical and fictional geography (e.g., pondering walking dry-shod "from Rome to York": [32:40]).
Use of “textual ruins” and “primary composition” as a way of thinking about Tolkien’s creative process.
Segue into thoughtful discussion on the nature of pride, family duty, and empathy for elders.
Discussion of how Tolkien’s anti-imperialist sentiments inform even the deepest cuts of the legendarium.

Conclusion

Alan and James set the stage for the next phase of their Tal-Elmar exploration by closely examining Tolkien’s nuanced portrayal of inheritance, identity, and colonial injustice. They lay a foundation for speculation about where an unfinished “deep cut” like Tal-Elmar might have gone. All listeners are invited to read the entire story (about 16-18 pages) in advance to best follow the next part of the discussion.

Next Time:
Tal-Elmar gets his first glimpse of the Numenorean “gods” from the west, and Hazad delivers more history and warnings.

Episode summary prepared in the style and spirit of The Prancing Pony Podcast: erudite, heartfelt, and just silly enough.