The Prancing Pony Podcast – Episode 398: "Changes"
Date: February 1, 2026
Hosts: Alan Sisto and James Tauber
Guest: Caitlin of Tea With Tolkien
Overview
This episode of The Prancing Pony Podcast continues the show's signature deep-dive into Tolkien’s legendarium, punctuated by humor, pop-culture references, and insightful literary discussion. Alan and James focus mainly on their multipart exploration of “Tal-Elmar," one of Tolkien’s lesser-known stories, but begin with a featured interview with Caitlin, founder of Tea With Tolkien and author of the new book Into the Heart of Middle Earth. Key themes include the importance of literary community, the challenges of communicating Tolkien's spirit to different audiences, and complex questions about legend, memory, and interpretation within Tolkien’s Second Age writings.
Key Sections and Discussion Points
1. Opening Banter & Podcast Community
[02:12]
- Alan and James set a friendly, pub-like tone, inviting listeners from all corners of Tolkien fandom.
- They highlight the combination of serious lore discussion with self-effacing humor and jokes (“greater than the swans of Gorblegod”).
Quote:
"No matter whether you came to Middle-earth through the books, the films, the TV show, or something else, each of you is welcome here in our common room." – James [02:43]
2. Interview: Caitlin (Tea With Tolkien, Author)
[03:39 – 13:53]
2.1. Building Community
[04:32]
- Caitlin describes the explosive growth of Tea With Tolkien’s online community, particularly connected to group book readings (Silmarillion, Lord of the Rings).
- Emphasis on the value of shared reading and accessible discussion for newcomers, especially for more challenging texts.
Quote:
"It seems best to tackle [the Silmarillion] with friends." – Alan [05:52]
2.2. Journey to Authorship
[06:20]
- Caitlin shares that she never planned to write a book, but was invited by her editor.
- She acknowledges the intimidation and collaborative shaping of the idea for Into the Heart of Middle Earth.
2.3. Book’s Purpose and Intended Reader
[07:37]
- The book is framed as “a spiritual journey for the hobbit at heart,” aimed at anyone seeking deeper meaning in Tolkien's work, not just Catholics.
- Caitlin stresses Tolkien’s transformative power—how readers emerge changed after engaging with his stories.
Quote:
"To enter into Middle Earth is to be changed, and you don't… the person that you are when you open the book for the first time is not going to be the same person when you've finished... there's so much we can learn from Tolkien." – Caitlin [07:59]
2.4. Tolkien’s Impact on Her Life
[08:44]
- She discusses how Tolkien’s works changed her interactions with nature, and shaped her attitudes toward ambition and the desire for power—learning both from heroes and villains.
2.5. Editing Challenges
[10:25]
- Caitlin laments having to cut deep “lore dumps” to keep the book accessible, but has a 40,000-word “cut content” document, possibly for a sequel.
2.6. Inclusivity and Applicability
[11:37]
- Although the book is “aimed in part at the Catholic reader,” it’s open to all. She wants to illuminate Tolkien’s faith background without exclusion or dogma, emulating Tolkien’s own preference for applicability over allegory.
Quote:
"I hope that whatever I share is going to be kind of like a good jump-off point for anyone to go in any direction they need to go." – Caitlin [12:55]
"No, no, no, no, Aslan is Jesus. It's not an allegory. He just is." – Alan joking about C.S. Lewis [13:20]
2.7. Book Release & Farewell
[13:41 – 13:56]
- The book releases February 20, 2026.
- Alan promises to have Caitlin back for the sequel.
3. Main Segment: Tal-Elmar Readalong and Discussion
3.1. Recap and Reading [14:10 – 16:02]
- Alan reads a vivid passage where Tal-Elmar spots “three strange birds on the water”—Numenorean ships—seen as omens. Hazad, his father, doubts him.
3.2. Tolkien’s Narrative Style: Layered History [16:02 – 17:47]
- Alan and James discuss Tolkien’s habit of providing extensive background before “starting the story proper,” likening it to his narrative approach in The Hobbit and The Lord of the Rings.
3.3. Geography, Rivers, and the "Bight" [17:47 – 24:42]
- Detailed speculation on the possible real-world or legendarium locations for Hazad’s village, relating text clues to Middle-earth maps.
- No firm conclusion about which river or coastline, but interesting conjectures on the Morthond, Isen, and other river mouths.
Quote:
"The large scale structure of the coastline I don't think helps us at all here." – James [20:47]
3.4. Swans of Gorbelgad: Tolkien’s Offhand Legend-Building [24:43 – 28:47]
- Playful digression on the offhand “legendary swans of Gorbelgad,” in the spirit of Tolkien’s “cats of Queen Berúthiel”—a classic example of Tolkien’s layered, unexplained world-building.
Quote:
"Tell me that doesn’t make you think of the cats of Queen Beruthiel." – Alan [24:56]
3.5. Eyes and Perception: Youth vs. Age [21:32 – 23:22]
- Discussion of distance, perception, and the symbolic contrast between the dimming eyes of Hazad (age) and Tal-Elmar’s keen vision (youth).
- Hazad’s skepticism about what his son sees, highlighting generational differences.
3.6. Dream, Omens, and the “Black Past” [30:34 – 33:02]
- Hazad’s foreboding about seeing a ship with black sails, hinting at a “black past”—referenced as both personal/cultural memory and broader historical trauma.
- James and Alan reflect on seasonal symbolism: “Why are you bringing up this in spring—let’s not ruin it with stories of darkness.”
3.7. Hazad’s History Lesson: Peoples and Prejudices [37:13 – 42:05]
- Hazad divides perceived threats threefold:
- Wild men of the mountains/woods (relatively minor threat)
- The Fell Folk of the East—his mother’s people (possibly related to the Edain but estranged);
- The High Men of the Sea, the Numenoreans, associated with death, darkness, and raids.
Quote:
"The boogeyman of this enemy list is really the High Men of the Sea." – Alan [43:16]
3.8. The Numenoreans as Colonial Raiders [53:45 – 57:13]
- The Numenoreans, called Gôhelleg by the locals, are described as bringers of gifts and “beautiful things” as well as colonizing invaders; echoes of colonial trade and exploitation.
- Direct reference to Letter 131, where Tolkien frames Numenoreans as “almost divine benefactors” but also sources of myth and fear.
Quote:
"They come amongst wild men as almost divine benefactors... but Hazard says they’re not really there as benefactors. By this stage, they've worked out what's going on." – James [57:00]
3.9. Grappling with Timeline, Legend, and Fact [43:44 – 65:38]
- Debate about when “Tal-Elmar” fits historically within Second Age events.
- Analysis of how the locals’ chilling legends about Numenoreans—worshipping death, kidnapping for sacrifice, and black-sailed ships—merge fact and hyperbole.
- Examination of how Tolkien’s drafts predate the finalized Akalabêth and Line of Elros—so in-story legends may meld real and exaggerated fears.
- Discussion about the evolution of the Numenorean darkness (worship of Melkor, human sacrifice, etc.) and compressed timelines in Tolkien’s world-building.
Quote:
"This cannot possibly be true in Hazad’s recent past… it almost feels like the sort of hyperbole that accompanies a legend." – Alan [44:47]
"Maybe this is one of the reasons Tolkien didn’t return to this story—realizing that he’d made changes in the writing of Lord of the Rings that had a big impact." – James [64:27]
3.10. Hazad & Tal Elmar as Outsiders & Memory Keepers [73:05 – 76:51]
- Hazad laments the people’s “lack of belief in actual history” and failing to record memories.
- Contrast between Tal-Elmar/Elmar/Hazad’s values versus the insular, skeptical, less compassionate culture around them.
Quote:
"They believe little that has not happened in their own days... If the people stop writing down the history, it’s gone." – Alan [75:06]
3.11. The Town Master (Mogru) and Tensions [79:26 – 93:09]
- Introduction of the town master, Mogru: described as obese and lizard-eyed, a dismissive figure oblivious to warnings.
- Hazad and Tal-Elmar confront him about the black sails. Mogru mocks them, signaling division between tradition/belief and authority/complacency.
- Tense exchange where Tal-Elmar coldly defends his father, refusing to tolerate disrespect, and asserts his intent to warn and protect the town.
- Subtext: internal politics, simmering resentment, class and generational divides.
Quote:
"You'll be a master without people, or a bag of bones on the hillside, if you scorn the wisdom of Hazad..." – Tal-Elmar [81:40]
3.12. Character Study: Inner Thoughts and Agency [93:09 – 104:02]
- Direct glimpse into the thoughts of both Mogru and Tal-Elmar.
- Mogru resents Tal-Elmar’s fearlessness; Tal-Elmar recognizes he’s made himself a target. Both strategize inwardly in a psychological chess match.
- Mogru reluctantly accompanies them to the hilltop, leaning on Tal-Elmar—a tense foreshadowing of further conflict.
Quote:
"He reads his mind quite clearly... fighting [the Numenoreans] is going to be less dangerous than earning the wrath of the Master." – Alan [100:14]
Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments
- “To enter into Middle Earth is to be changed…” – Caitlin [07:59]
- "Aslan is Jesus. It's not an allegory. He just is." – Alan [13:20]
- "Tell me that doesn’t make you think of the cats of Queen Berúthiel." – Alan [24:56]
- "[Hazad’s] people as a whole don't believe any of the stories from the past... If you stop writing down the history, it's gone." – Alan [75:00]
- "That just comes down to how certain he is in his father and how much he believes in him." – Alan [102:49]
Timestamps for Key Segments
- [03:39] – Introduction and interview with Caitlin
- [07:37] – Elevator pitch for Into the Heart of Middle Earth
- [14:10] – Tal-Elmar story reading begins
- [24:56] – The swans of Gorbelgad: legendary nonsense and Tolkien’s world-building
- [30:34] – The “black past”: omens and generational trauma
- [37:13] – Hazad’s taxonomy of enemies: history lesson
- [43:37] – The Numenoreans as dread colonial power
- [53:45] – Numenorean ships, gifts, and domination: colonial parallels
- [64:27] – Torn between Tolkien’s evolving timelines and legend-level storytelling
- [73:05] – Cultural amnesia: memory and history in Tal-Elmar’s people
- [79:26] – Appearance of the Master (Mogru) and the rising tension
- [93:09] – Inner thoughts: psychological chess match between Tal-Elmar and Mogru
Tone and Language
- Warm, accessible, and nerdy—mixing deep literary analysis with in-jokes (Star Wars, Steve Urkel), puns, and affectionate sarcasm.
- Occasional breakaways to explain etymology (“nappers” as flint-knappers), Tolkienian wordplay, and long-form sidebar discussions.
- Honest about the ambiguities and unresolved aspects of Tolkien’s texts, especially regarding timelines, legend, and in-world “history.”
Conclusion and Teaser
The episode wraps just as the village’s internal tensions reach a breaking point and the threat from offshore (Numenorean ships) looms unseen but palpable. Alan and James promise more developments next week, with Tal-Elmar promoted “from messenger to spy.” They close as always by celebrating their listener community, Patreon supporters, and the enduring relevance of Tolkien’s warnings about forgetting or distorting history.
Final Quote:
"May you rekindle hearts in a world that grows chill." – James [111:56]