399 – Under Pressure

Summary

The Prancing Pony Podcast

Episode 399: Under Pressure
Release Date: February 8, 2026
Hosts: Alan Sisto & James Tauber
Special Guest: Chris Peet (Wizard Way)

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Episode Overview

This episode dives into Tolkien’s legendarium with the smart, lively, and digressive style the Prancing Pony Podcast fans know and love. The first and main segment spotlights Chris Peet’s Imladris (Elvish) calendar project—a 14-month, Sindarin-language wall calendar meticulously synced to the Elvish reckoning described in Tolkien’s Appendix D. After a deeply nerdy exploration of Tolkienian timekeeping and elvish linguistics, the hosts resume their close reading of "Tal Elmar" from The Peoples of Middle-Earth, focusing on intrigue, power plays, character motivations, and the geographical mysteries of Middle-earth’s Second Age.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. The Imladris Calendar – Chris Peet’s Deep Tolkien Project

[04:29–25:57]

Chris Peet's Tolkien Journey

• Chris’s Tolkien story began with the Peter Jackson films, getting "dragged" to see Fellowship of the Ring and becoming instantly fascinated by elves:
  "I saw the elves and my entire brain stopped, rebooted, and I have been absolutely hyper-focused on them ever since" (Chris, 04:44).
• Later took Elvish lessons online, met the woman who taught her as her life partner—a true Tolkien love story.

Why the Imladris Calendar?

• Unlike the Shire or King’s Reckoning, Imladris (Rivendell)’s calendar is “deeply tied to nature” and divides the year by six seasons, not arbitrary months.
  "The elves are very focused on interacting with and melding with the environments ... the calendar of Imladris is very centered around the passing of the seasons." (Chris, 06:20)
• Months are replaced by 6-day weeks and 6 seasons: spring, summer, harvest, fading (leaf fall), winter, and stirring.

From High School Lockers to Launch

• Created a meme-filled calendar “with Elrond and a Matrix background” in high school using MS Paint (08:02), but longed for an official, artistically-realized version.
• Inspired by Don Marshall’s This Day in Middle-earth calendar, Chris resolved to finally make her Imladris calendar.
• Took three years to develop, especially to commission and fairly pay Tolkien community artists (including commercial rights).

Timing and New Year

• Elvish new year falls late March (approximately March 23–27), not January, so the “2026–2027 calendar” starts March 23, 2026 and ends March 22, 2027 (11:18).
• Chris synchronized the Imladris calendar with our proleptic Gregorian year "1 AD," which aligns well for 2026 (12:05).

Addressing "Nerd Problems"

• Gregorian and Elvish weeks don't line up (ours: 7 days, theirs: 6); the calendar visualizes the offset with diagonal shading for weekends (13:13).
• James: "I love the way that you've conveyed the weekend through the color and stuff like that." (12:56)
• Each cell has the full Gregorian date alongside Elvish reckoning so it's “usable as a calendar” with a “little mental switch” (14:08).

Deep Dive: Elvish & Sindarin Days of the Week

• All days start with "Or-" (day):
  • Orgelion: Star Day
  • Oranor: Sun Day
  • Orithil: Moon Day
  • Orgalavar: Trees Day (for the Two Trees)
  • Ormenel: Heaven’s Day
  • Orbelein: Valar Day (in Sindarin, not Quenya, "because you have to pick a dialect" for the elves of Middle-earth) (15:19–19:09).
• Chris’s calendar is entirely Sindarin; a Quenya edition might follow with enough interest.
• Uses custom iconography for each day to avoid alphabet clutter.

Duodecimal Elven Math

• Elvish number system is base-12; calendar shows both Arabic numbers and the duodecimal-elvish for each day (21:30).
• They may have counted on their "knuckle bones" (23:30)—a genuine anthropological method!

How to Order

• Calendar (with sample pages and art previews) is at elfboy.com (“don’t forget the hyphen: elfboy.com”) (24:31).
• Art by Ander Poziniuk and Rami Van Voorg, with instructions: "80% nature, 20% elves. Go." (25:06)

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2. Deep Dive: "Tal Elmar" Read-Along and Analysis

Context & Power Dynamics in Agar

[26:03–44:05]

• Recap: Tense scene between Tal Elmar, mogul/villain Mogru (Master of the town), and his father Hazad. Alan and James highlight Tolkien’s characterization through physical description (Mogru's "lizard eye," Tal Elmar’s "flint flash") and animal metaphor (dog, lizard).
• The arrival of mysterious ships (Numenorean or otherwise) prompts political machinations: Mogru sends Tal Elmar on a dangerous mission, using his authority under “a time of peril” (similar to declaring martial law).
• Alan and James emphasize Tolkien’s subtle use of legal and social structures, and the tension between civic duty, personal malice, and broader fate.

Urban Legends, Motifs, and Mythmaking

• Discussion: The community’s terror of the “Gohileg” (Numenoreans) is based as much on rumor as reality. Dark tales and legends can be uncertain, maybe even urban legend—"It reminds me of the stories that emerged around Gollum ... ghosts breaking into houses and stealing babies. Doesn't that sort of feel like this?" (James, 45:55).
• The line between social myth and personal experience blurs, reflecting Tolkien’s interest in how communities construct memory and fear.
• The podcast notes how authoritative power is wielded and rationalized: "He had made his own trap, and Mogu had used it. He declared a time of peril to the town, and he had the right to command any service." (audio paraphrase, ~52:43)

Scene Breakdown: Tal Elmar’s Assignment

[54:42–72:11]

• Tal Elmar is sent as messenger and scout, with the master’s staff as a sign of authority to the townsmen.
• The hosts dig into his internal struggle—a mix of "righteous anger" and pride, especially regarding his protective feelings for his father. Analogy to "Liam Neeson moment" (65:15).
• Notable quote:
  Tal Elmar to Mogru:
  "Maybe I shall return against thy hopes. My father I leave in thy care ... I will wring thy fat neck with my bare hands if needs be. Or I will hunt thee through the wilds to the black pools." (Alan reading, 65:01)
• Chris’s footnote: Even Christopher Tolkien leaves textual oddities, like mismatched subject-verb, as is, with notes (67:36).

Mistrust, Status, and Social Hierarchy

• The host highlight the community's prejudice—how Tal Elmar and Hazad are considered "slaves, bastards"—and Tal Elmar’s awareness of this:
  "We know what you call us ... you think you've kept that a secret, but we know." (James, 66:51)

Journey to the Shore & Fear of the Uncanny

[72:17–93:48]

• Tal Elmar heads toward the shore, passing through sinister woods filled with snakes and dark spirits:
  "It was swift for the eye to travel to the shore, but slow for feet, and the distance was greater than it seemed. The wood was dark and unwholesome ..." (reading, 82:24).
• Discussion about the use of "unwholesome" and Tolkien’s recurring motifs of oppressive or "bewildering" forests.
• Tal Elmar musters courage, rationalizes his mission, and internally wonders if these strangers (the Gohileg) are truly “worse” than the people of his own town.

Visual Recon and First Contact

[93:51–108:15]

• Tal Elmar finally spies the Numenorean ships:
  "Out in the midst of the stream, beyond the shoals, three great ships, though Tal Elmar had no such word in his language to name them with, were lying motionless ..." (reading, 99:39)
• Discussion of language barriers: the townsfolk have no word for "ship" or "sail," reinforcing their cultural distance from the "tall strangers."
• Analysis of the implications: Is Tal Elmar’s alienation within his own people a reflection of Tolkien’s larger themes about the "other"?
• Geographical speculation: Dissect whether the setting could be mouth of the Isen or Morthond River, based on topography, references to "shawls," "downs," and river estuaries (81:55, 101:31).
• Alan notes: "Because coasts can curve, there's nothing that tells us for sure which one this is." (101:44)

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3. Memorable Quotes & Moments

On Fandom Deep Dives:

• Alan: "If you think we nerded out [on calendars] by spending two hours talking about the Shire Reckoning... You've not met our guest today." (03:56)

On Elvish Days:

• Chris: "All of the Elvish days of the week start with the same letter... Or-gelion, Or-anor, Or-ithil, Or-galavar, Or-menel, Or-belein." (15:19)

On Synching Calendars:

• Chris: "The way that I decided to do it is I aligned the calendar with one AD... and then once we get to 2026, it happens to be shifted in a way that the first day of the Elvish year is the 23rd [of March]." (12:05)

On Power and Manipulation:

• "He had made his own trap, and Mogru had used it. He declared a time of peril to the town, and he had the right to command any service. It was death to disobey him." (~52:43)

On Inherited Myths:

• James: "It reminds me of the stories that emerged around Gollum ... ghosts breaking into houses and stealing babies. Doesn't that sort of feel like this?" (45:55)

On Prejudice:

• Tal Elmar: "What heed will they pay if the slaves, bastards as thou namest us, when I am not by, comes crying the summons...?" (Chris, 66:44)

On Facing the Unknown:

• Narration: "It needed short thought to come to the conclusion that all three were less peril than to return with lying excuse, or with none..." (James reading, 93:39)

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4. Timestamps for Key Segments

• [04:29–25:57]: Imladris Calendar project deep-dive with Chris Peet
• [26:03–54:05]: "Tal Elmar" plot recap, character analysis, law, and lore
• [54:42–72:11]: Tal Elmar’s mission, threat against Mogru, social commentary
• [72:17–93:48]: Tal Elmar’s forest journey, fears, wider mythmaking
• [93:51–108:15]: Arrival at the shore, first contact, language and identity
• [108:15–111:59]: Listener mailbag: Tolkien releases in 2026, boxed sets, collecting
• [112:05–end]: Show credits, puns, community notes, and sign-off banter

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Tone and Atmosphere

• Down-to-earth, pub-style conversation full of warmth, groaner puns, and pop culture side trails (“Why did it have to be snakes?”, Princess Bride, Spinal Tap).
• Scholarly, but self-effacing—proud to be “nerds” for calendars, linguistics, and textual minutiae.
• Relishes Tolkien’s ambiguity: reveling in “unsolvable” geographical puzzles and textual oddities.
• Deep respect for primary sources and Tolkien’s linguistic craft.

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Notable Community Notes

• Alan and James invite further speculation and feedback from listeners, highlighting the PPP’s active social presence and Patreon Discord.
• Chris Peet’s calendar represents the thriving subcreativity of the Tolkien fan community—support her project at elfboy.com.
• Next week’s episode will cover what happens when Tal Elmar is mistaken for an elf, promising both hilarity and further insight into Tolkien’s late Second Age writings.

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Conclusion

Episode 399 is essential listening for anyone passionate about the intersection of Tolkienian worldbuilding, linguistics, and fandom creativity. Even the most minute calendar debates or textual discrepancies are approached with both scholastic rigor and an inviting, humorous touch—the PPP’s signature style.

Memorable sign-off:
“May you rekindle hearts in a world that grows chill.”

Transcript

[Alan Sisto]

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[James Tauber]

Wait, you did?

[Alan Sisto]

Yep, on Carvana. Just put in the license plate, answered a few questions, got an offer in minutes. Easier than setting up that new digital picture frame.

[James Tauber]

You don't say.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah, they're even picking it up tomorrow. Talk about fast.

[James Tauber]

Wow. Way to go.

[Alan Sisto]

So, about that picture frame. Ah, forget about it. Until Carvana makes one, I'm not interested.

[Chris Peet]

Car selling made easy on Carvana.

[James Tauber]

Pickup fees may apply.

[Alan Sisto]

Good evening, little masters, and welcome to episode 399 of the Prancing Pony podcast. Where it has been long since my legs have made such speed from house to gate.

[James Tauber]

Let's not even try. Alan, remember the last time you did, you broke your collarbone.

[Alan Sisto]

Oh, yeah, that's right.

[James Tauber]

Folks, pull up a bench in the common room and join us. I'm James Tauber, the sage of the south, and I'm here with the man of the west who keeps asking me why I forced the master of the town from his house, Alan Sisto.

[Alan Sisto]

I mean, it's just few ships. What could possibly go wrong, Right? Folks, join us as Mogru once again, not Grogu, but Moguru declares martial law. And we move into the second half of our four part look at, well, an epilogue of sorts to Aldarian and the story of Tal Elmar, found in the peoples of Middle Earth.

[James Tauber]

Folks, no matter whether you've come to Middle Earth through the books, the films, the TV show, or something else, each of you is welcome here in our common room. The Prancing Pony podcast continues in our 10th season of Reading and talking our way through Middle Earth. We're with conversations, digressions, and even speculations.

[Alan Sisto]

And with you here, James, probably a few puns and bad jokes as well.

[James Tauber]

But I think they were there before I ever arrived.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah, yeah, well, I suppose we'd have to look at the evidence, but you're probably right, folks. Our purpose, though, is to dive deep into the lore to discuss the story, our favorite characters, themes, Tolkien's inspirations, and a whole lot more.

[James Tauber]

And while we take the work seriously, the same can't be said about ourselves. We're just a couple of friends chatting at the pub. And we're glad you've joined us.

[Alan Sisto]

And I'm sure you'll be glad you joined as well. But before we start with today's chapter discussion, we have a guest who's been working on a project that we think you'll be very excited about. Now, it has been said, James, that you and I might have spent too much time on the podcast talking about the calendars in Appendix D last year.

[James Tauber]

In episode 377, something something pedantic something. But if you think we nerded out by spending two hours talking about the shy calendar, the King's reckoning, Stuart's reckoning, the Eldar calendar, and the all important Sisto reckoning.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah, never forget that one.

[James Tauber]

You've not met our guest today.

[Alan Sisto]

That's right, Chris Peet. Also known online as Wizard Way. Chris has long been fascinated by the calendar of Imladras, how Elrond keeps his councils on schedule and such. I mean, okay, maybe not the council meetings, but you get the idea.

[James Tauber]

Chris has created an accurate and gorgeous looking adaptation of the calendar of Imladris that we looked at in Appendix D last season.

[Alan Sisto]

Now, you might think it's too late. I mean, why talk about a calendar in February, right? But trust me, we'll ask that and we'll let them explain why this is the perfect time to be introducing this calendar to. To the Tolkien fandom. Welcome, Chris.

[Chris Peet]

Thank you so much for having me.

[Alan Sisto]

It is our pleasure.

[James Tauber]

Now, we'll get to that question, but first we want to ask the question we ask everyone who comes on the ppp. When were you first introduced to Tolkien's works and what it is about them that keeps you coming back.

[Chris Peet]

Well, to make a very long story as short as possible, I am one of those people who saw the Peter Jackson films prior to reading the books. So my first introduction was seeing Fellowship of the Ring in theater. I was dragged to the theater. I was at an age where I did not want to go on a family outing, thank you very much. And it was, of course, Christmas break, so I was like, I don't want to be here. Why am I here? And then I saw the elves and my entire brain stopped rebooted, and I have been absolutely hyper focused on them ever since, to the point that I took Elvish lessons on the Internet when I was in early college. And the woman who created those lessons, we met later on and she became my life partner. So my life partner is the woman who taught me Elvish.

[Alan Sisto]

That's amazing.

[Chris Peet]

So it is our very own little Tolkien, very Tolkien centric love story. And I started making content after my partner passed away in 2019. So this whole journey for me has been very full circle. And the calendar has also been a part of that.

[Alan Sisto]

All right, well, in that calendar's introduction, you talk about having been drawn to that Elvish calendar, specifically the Imlodris calendar, early on, even drawing your own for your high school locker. I'm presuming this was after seeing Fellowship of the Rings. What is it about that calendar in particular that intrigues you compared, say, to the Shire reckoning or the King's reckoning?

[Chris Peet]

Well, the elves are very focused on interacting with and melding with the environments where they live. And the calendar of Imladres is very centered around the passing of the seasons. For example, the elves count their calendar in six seasons rather than 12 months. So the months aren't arbitrarily decided. They are completely delineated in six day weeks over the course of six seasons. The different seasons being spring, summer, harvest or autumn, fall, as in leaf fall or fading. They sometimes call it fading winter and then stirring. So you have this fading winter and stirring where.

[Alan Sisto]

So sort of like a priest, right.

[Chris Peet]

Where the snow begins to melt, life begins to return, the world wakes up again. So you have this very natural give and take and flow between the seasons that the elves are used to experiencing, and that is then reflected in their calendar.

[James Tauber]

Now, your calendar looks like the kind of thing you've spent a lot of time refining and working out.

[Chris Peet]

Oh, yes.

[James Tauber]

When did this project go from someday I'd like to to this is finally going to happen. And what did it take to get there?

[Chris Peet]

As you mentioned, I did make a very, very rudimentary calendar that I put in my high school locker, and that was using Ye Olde Microsoft paint.

[James Tauber]

Oh, gosh. Wow.

[Chris Peet]

Yes.

[Alan Sisto]

Drink of the masochist again. Yeah. Yeah.

[Chris Peet]

Oh, yes. It was so, so very bad. And I used pictures that were memes at the time. So, like, one of the months had the Elrond with the matrix background behind him saying, hobbits are a virus. So I had memes going on. It was horrible. It was terrible. Ever since then, I've wanted to see an official version of the calendar made, and I was hoping someone would beat me to it. But 20 years later, I finally was like, no, I really want to do this. I saw Don Marshall with his this Day in Middle Earth calendar, and once he got that project going, I was like, man, I've wanted to make a calendar too, for ages. I should do that. So about three years ago is when I started really putting it all together, conceptualizing what I wanted it to look like, trying to seek artists. And it took me about two and a half years to get all of the artwork compiled for it.

[James Tauber]

Wow.

[Chris Peet]

Because I'm poor, and I had to pay for everything myself.

[Alan Sisto]

There is that.

[Chris Peet]

But I also wanted to pay the artists well, and I wanted to pay for the commercial rights so that I could sell the artwork as part of the calendar. So I wanted to do everything properly, and that took extra time. But it was about nine months ago that it was very clear I was going to get all of the artwork done in 2025. And therefore, I started, you know, making all of the preparations to actually make it a 2026 through 2027 calendar. So it. It was three years in the making, but 23 years in the imagining.

[Alan Sisto]

Okay. You know, I certainly understand that. I like the way that you wanted to do this. Right. Like, you wanted to pay the artists. You wanted to pay them. Well, I have a ton of respect for that, and I think our audience will.

[Chris Peet]

No AI here. Absolutely not.

[Alan Sisto]

No. I'm looking for an anti AI pledge to sign, that's for sure.

[Chris Peet]

Absolutely.

[Alan Sisto]

We promised our listeners that we'd ask this, and you kind of just hinted at it a little bit, mentioning that it's a 26, 27 calendar. Our Gregorian calendars start on January 1st. So having you on five weeks later to talk about a 26 calendar seems. I don't know if a wizard is never late. A podcast can be. Why is this the perfect time?

[Chris Peet]

Well, if one would turn to the appendices in the Lord of the Rings, one of the first things you'll notice about the Elvish calendar is that it begins in late March. Now, the calendar sometimes goes slightly out of sync, and then because of the leap year structure, which I could always talk about as well, but because of that, it goes slightly out of sync and then snaps back into sync again with the Gregorian calendar. This means that the New Year's Day is anywhere between March 23 and March 27. And I might even have those days slightly off. But there is. There is a stint of four or five days where New Year's tends to fall. And in the books, at least for the year where the plot of Lord of the Rings happens, the fall of Sauron is on the Elvish new year, right?

[Alan Sisto]

March 25th.

[Chris Peet]

Yeah, March 25th. So this calendar is based on that. I've gone through different synchronization settings to come up with this particular calendar. But for the 2026-2027 calendar, it begins on March 23rd in 2026, and then it ends on March 22nd in 2027.

[James Tauber]

So, okay, that actually leads perfectly to the question I had, which was about that synchronization, because Alan mentioned March 25, but that's, of course, just what the Hobbits call it. Tolkien says it was March 27th in our calendar on that year. Going back to what you said, Chris, about the fact that it shifts between the 23rd and 23rd.

[Chris Peet]

It shifts, yes.

[James Tauber]

How did you establish the synchronization for this particular calendar?

[Chris Peet]

Yes. So there are several different ways that you can try to synchronize the calendar of Imladris to the Gregorian calendar the way that I chose, because you do just eventually have to make a choice and then run with it and then be consistent.

[James Tauber]

Yeah.

[Chris Peet]

The way that I decided to do it is I aligned the calendar with one AD or cd. So I aligned it with the first year of the proleptic Gregorian calendar. This put the first day of the Elvish year on the first day of their Elvish week. And then it just follows for years and years and years. And then once we get to 2026, it happens to be shifted in a way that the first day of the Elvish year is the 23rd.

[James Tauber]

23Rd.

[Chris Peet]

March.

[James Tauber]

Yeah. Yeah. I love the way. For people that haven't seen this yet, one of the things that I love most about it is the way that you've. You've dealt with the fact that our week is seven days, but their week is six days. And I love the way that you've conveyed the weekend through the color and stuff like that.

[Chris Peet]

Yes, there are several problems, if you want to call them that, when trying to overlap the Elvish calendar with the Gregorian calendar. But the main one is that our weeks are seven days long. The elves have a six day week instead. And because of that difference in week size, the way that it overlaps is that the weekends, whatever our Saturday and Sunday would be in the Elvish week, ends up shifting one cell over every week. So what I've done visually to help people at least keep track of where they are in the week just by looking at the page is I have darkened the weekend days so you will see this sort of diagonal darkened strip that follows down the month as it goes. And that at least helps you visually keep track of your weekends because they.

[James Tauber]

Are off by a day and you've got the Gregorian date on there as well.

[Chris Peet]

Yes, every cell does have fully written out the entire Gregorian date. So you can functionally use this as a calendar. It just. You have to flip a little switch in your head and just remember that, oh, things are going to shift visually, but it does count time the same as any other calendar.

[James Tauber]

Yeah, yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. I do want to ask you. Sorry, Alan, I know you've got some more questions, but.

[Alan Sisto]

No, that's okay, James. They already answered that, the one that I was going with. So let's go ahead and keep going down that track. I'm going to just hand off to you, James.

[James Tauber]

Sure. I mean, you know that I geek out about this stuff as well.

[Chris Peet]

Bring it. I'm ready. I love talking.

[Alan Sisto]

Why do you think I had you on with me, James, to talk about the calendars?

[James Tauber]

So I'm keen for listeners who may not remember the episode that we did on this for you to talk a little bit about the names of the days of the week. We've only got six.

[Chris Peet]

Oh, sure.

[James Tauber]

So there's some iconography in your calendar indicating what the sort of columns are. But why don't you tell us more about. About. There's only six days. What do the elves call them?

[Chris Peet]

Yes. So when you look at a normal Gregorian calendar, typical one that you would have on your wall, we put typically just the full names or we shorten them down to a single letter. So Monday, Wednesday, Friday is mwf. That sort of thing was less possible because no one's going to recognize what the letter means. And all of the Elvish days of the week start with the same letter. So that was not going to happen. And that is because the, the six days of The Elvish week are orgelion, oranor, orithil, or Galavar, or Menel and orbelein.

[James Tauber]

It's like the fact that all our. All the days of our week end in Y.

[Alan Sisto]

Right.

[James Tauber]

Because of the word. They all end in day. And of course, that's the word they start with day.

[Chris Peet]

They start with day in Elvish because the. The Elvish word for day is aur, A, U, R, but when it's appended onto another word as a prefix, it changes to or, just or.

[James Tauber]

Yep.

[Chris Peet]

So. So orgelion is star day, Gil.

[Alan Sisto]

Right, like gilgalad.

[Chris Peet]

Yeah, exactly. Oranor is Sunday.

[James Tauber]

Anor.

[Alan Sisto]

Of course.

[Chris Peet]

Exactly. Orithil is moon day, or galavad is trees day.

[Alan Sisto]

I love that.

[Chris Peet]

After the two trees.

[James Tauber]

Yep.

[Alan Sisto]

And that's specifically just the plural, or not the plural, but the pair. That's one of those unusual words where they have not only a singular for tree and a plural for like a forest, but they also have a word that means a pair of trees. And that word, I think, is the one that means that. Right, Yep.

[Chris Peet]

I'm pretty sure that is true.

[Alan Sisto]

It's specifically referring to the two trees.

[Chris Peet]

To the two trees. And not just any two trees.

[James Tauber]

It's something the Gondorians changed. They changed it to be about the white tree rather than the two trees, but. Yes, but. Sorry, go on.

[Chris Peet]

Right, right, right. I love that you know so much about the other calendars because that does overlap a little bit. There is a progression where they took, you know, the Elvish calendar and altered it a little bit. So the next day, which is the fifth day of the six day Elvish week, is Ormenell, which is heaven's day. And there's. There are a few different words for like, sky, but Menel is specifically the heavens, as in the firmament surrounding the planet as Tolkien conceived his world. Orwell is one of two different names that they can sometimes use for the final day, but it is Valar Day or Power.

[Alan Sisto]

Okay, I was wondering about that one. I like Menel was obvious, you know, mostly because we just did, you know, 11 episodes on eldarian and Arenda, so Meneldor came up a lot. Yes, and Meneltarma, of course. So all of that about the heavens. But that last one was the one that threw me. Like, which one's that?

[James Tauber]

Okay.

[Alan Sisto]

Yes.

[Chris Peet]

It gets a little bit complicated because Valar is a Quenya word and I chose to use nothing but neosindarin in this calendar. And I know someone's already in the comments being like Sindarin. And not Quinya. I even put a note at the bottom of info page that says, wait, where's all the Quenya? And I. And I explain that I gotta make a choice.

[Alan Sisto]

Right? You gotta make a choice.

[Chris Peet]

And because a healthy sect of the Elven population spoke only Sindarin and not Quenya, that Quenya was such a Noldorin language that Sylvan elves didn't speak.

[Alan Sisto]

No, it's the Elvish Latin.

[James Tauber]

It would not be appropriate in. In.

[Chris Peet]

It was the best way to have a catch all.

[James Tauber]

Yeah.

[Chris Peet]

If I was thinking conceptually of what would the calendar actually look like? Well, it would want to be read by the most people, so I went with Sindarin instead.

[Alan Sisto]

And if you put it in Quenya, thingol would have come after you. So.

[Chris Peet]

Yeah.

[Alan Sisto]

Oh, good.

[Chris Peet]

Let's. Let's not talk about Elway. We don't talk about Elway. So taking the Quenya word valar and putting that into Sindarin is balan. So it's valen, V, A L, a N. And then pluralizing it, it becomes veline, like edain for adan. Same concept.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah.

[Chris Peet]

That's a thing called I, affection, which happens when you pluralize things. There are vowel shifts that happen in Sindarin. So then you put or as the prefix on the word, and that changes. And that R causes liquid mutation. And so the. The V becomes a B. So it becomes or bellein.

[James Tauber]

Yeah.

[Alan Sisto]

Fascinating. I love that. We could do word nerdery all day here, right, James?

[Chris Peet]

Oh, yes. But those are the. Those are the six days of the elf.

[James Tauber]

Fantastic. Yeah.

[Alan Sisto]

And now I'm picturing a Sesame street going through the six days of the week. But in Sindarin with, like, Muppets, that's next. Yeah, that's the next thing you'll produce. Yeah.

[James Tauber]

Yeah.

[Alan Sisto]

And, folks, if you want to see a calendar in Kwenya, support this. Buy so many copies of it that next year, Chris creates a Sindarin version and a Quenya version. I'm not committing you to that, but.

[Chris Peet]

If you sold 5,000, I'm looking for a creative way to reformat it to include both without everything looking completely bogged down.

[James Tauber]

Yeah.

[Alan Sisto]

I was going to say, because it's so cool.

[Chris Peet]

I wanted to. Trust me, I wanted to.

[Alan Sisto]

Of course.

[Chris Peet]

But the way that we at least show these six days of the week is I had my graphic designer come up with symbols for each of them. So instead of spelling out the days, because if I spelled it out in the Latin Alphabet, I would then have to spell it out also in The Tengua Alphabet. And again, we were trying to cut down on clutter, so I had my graphic designer use symbols instead. So at the top of the calendar for each season, slash, month, there are these symbols to tell you which day of the week it is.

[Alan Sisto]

The stars, the sun, the moon, the two trees.

[James Tauber]

Yeah.

[Alan Sisto]

So straightforward.

[James Tauber]

Yeah. Speaking of the Tengwa, tell us about the Tengwar that appears on each day.

[Chris Peet]

On each day. Okay. So another detail about the way that the elves count time and count in general is that they were fond of counting in threes, sixes and twelves as such, typically, at least in the writing system that Christopher Tolkien gave us later on, which was hinted at in one of Tolkien's letters. In letter 344, Tolkien mentions that he has this other counting system for the elves, and then Christopher gave it to us later. And it is basically that the elves use a duodecimal system, or base 12, as opposed to the decimal system, or base 10, which is what we're all used to. So the elves count to 12 and then start over. So what I've done in the calendar is, for every day, I do show the number of the day using Arabic numbers that we're normally seeing in every other English calendar. But in addition to that, because those numbers are all in base 10, counting on the shorter months, it's 1 to 54. On the longer months, it's 1 to 72, because that's how long the months are. The Elvish that is in every cell for every day is counted in base 12. So it is written in Elvish in the manner in which the elves would have written it.

[James Tauber]

Wonderful.

[Chris Peet]

Because I'm a geek.

[James Tauber]

Perfect. Fantastic. Alan, did you have any more.

[Alan Sisto]

No. Honestly, you covered all the other questions I had in my mind. I just wanted to point out, folks, that when you hear them talking about 54 and 72 day months, keep in mind those are also divisible by six, because this is part of the whole duodecimal thing. Sometimes I expect to find an Elvish skeleton and discover they actually had six fingers and toes on each foot. I mean, why else would you explain that they became Chris.

[James Tauber]

Chris knows, at least.

[Alan Sisto]

I'm seeing some wild hand signals here. Chris.

[James Tauber]

Chris has an idea.

[Chris Peet]

Okay, so I can interject the. Because this is the L. This was nothing new. Tolkien did not just pull this from nowhere. There are other societies in the world that do count in a duodecimal system, and the way that they do it is with their knuckles.

[James Tauber]

Four fingers.

[Chris Peet]

Yeah, four fingers. There are three parts to each finger. So you can count 12 on four fingers.

[Alan Sisto]

Aha.

[Chris Peet]

So there is an easy way to keep.

[Alan Sisto]

Was it Babylonian, James? I think ancient Babylonian.

[James Tauber]

Yep. There was 12 and then. And then 60 for a larger year. Yeah, yeah.

[Alan Sisto]

Which is why we have that 60 seconds in a minute. 60 minutes in an hour. Yeah, absolutely. It's wild.

[Chris Peet]

Numbers are weird and I love that everything has melted together into this strange amalgamation of a reality.

[Alan Sisto]

It's great. Well, Chris, tell us, tell our listeners more importantly where they can go to learn more about your calendar. And of course to order this 14 month Imlodris calendar in time for them to start in late March.

[Chris Peet]

You can find the calendar on my website, which is www.elfboy.com. it's e-l f-b o I elfboy.com. don't forget the hyphen e-l f-b o I.com and right there on the front page, it's very easy to find. There are links all over the place to it. But if you would like to see not just the front and back covers, but also an example page of the interior of the calendar that is visible on the listing. So if you want to take a look before you buy. Absolutely do that. I'm very, very proud of the work that has been done.

[Alan Sisto]

As you should be. Yeah.

[Chris Peet]

And honestly, the, the artists that I, that I was able to hire for this, Ander Poziniuk and Rami Van Voorg are incredible. I love their style. It's so bright and vibrant and I basically told them 80% nature, 20% elves. Go.

[James Tauber]

Yep.

[Chris Peet]

And they were both exquisite with the prompt.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah. I have to say it really is colorful and gorgeous. Very pleasant to look at. Looking forward to having that on my wall starting later next month.

[James Tauber]

Yeah, it's a perfect combination of aesthetically pleasing and nerdy. Accurate to the appendices. I love it. I love it. Well, thank you very much for joining us, Chris. It was a pleasure to have you here.

[Chris Peet]

Thank you so much for having me. I'm so excited that this is finally a thing that I have been put out into the fandom.

[Alan Sisto]

Excellent. Well, we can't wait to see it on all of our listeners walls in the coming weeks.

[James Tauber]

Okay, Alan, shall we return to Tal Elmar?

[Alan Sisto]

I think we should. I wonder what kind of calendar Tal Omar was using.

[James Tauber]

I don't know that we'll ever know given all the.

[Alan Sisto]

We don't even know where the story's taking place. I mean, we barely know it's Middle Earth.

[James Tauber]

Although we're going to Speculate some more on that, I'm sure.

[Alan Sisto]

Oh, we will. We will indeed.

[James Tauber]

Would you like to take us away with the reading?

[Alan Sisto]

I will, sir. So before I read we last left, Mogru was was insisting that Tal Omar lead him to the hill to go see the ships. And that's where we're going to pick up this week. My father is the elder, said Tal Omar, and the way is but short. Let the master lead and we will follow. Here is your staff. And he released himself from the grasp of Mogru and gave him his staff, which stood by the door of his house. And taking the arm of his father, he waited until the master set out sidelong and black was the glance of the lizard eye, but the gleam of the eye of Tel Elmar that it caught stung like a goad. It was long since the fat legs of Mogru had made such speed from house to gate, and longer since they had heaved his belly up the slippery hill sward beyond the dyke. He was blown and panting like an old dog when they came to the top. Then again Tal Elmar looked out, but the high and distant sea was now empty, and he stood silent. Mogru wiped the sweat from his eyes and followed his gaze. For what reason, I ask, have ye forced the master of the town from his house and brought him hither? He snarled. The sea lies where it lay and empty. What mean ye? Have patience and look closer, said Tel Omar. Away to the west highlands blocked the view of all but the distant sea. But rising to the broad cap of the golden hill, they fell suddenly away, and in a deep cleft a glimpse could be seen of the great inlet and the waters near its north shore. Time has passed since we were here before, and the wind is strong, said Tal Omar. They have come nearer. He pointed. There you will see their wings or their wind cloths. Call them what you will, but what is your counsel? And was it not a matter that the master should see with his own eyes?

[James Tauber]

Yeah. So we start with the next move in this dangerous chess game between Tal Elmar and Moguru, the master of the town.

[Alan Sisto]

And I like how Tal Omar is not just going to stand there and take it. I mean, he's absolutely going to give as good as he gets, but with respect, like he knows his position.

[James Tauber]

Yeah, he's playing the appropriate game.

[Alan Sisto]

Yes, exactly. So, you know, like I said when we last left, Mogru had taken Tel Elmar's arm and leaned on it, telling him, aid my steps, young man. But Tel Elmar reminds Mogru Hazad is older, and thus is the one who requires his aid. Hey, but it's also a short walk. You should lead. And you're the master. Anyway, here's your staff. I love it. Here's this. Here's the big stick. You take it. Yeah, yeah.

[James Tauber]

And I wonder what the physical reaction was when Tal Elmar released himself from the Master's grip.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah, exactly. I mean, how aggressively did he release himself?

[James Tauber]

Release himself. Yeah, exactly. And Tal Elmar does what he says. He takes his father's arm after handing Mogri his staff, and he waits for the leader to in lead.

[Alan Sisto]

Well, it is sort of his job. It's what it says on the tin. At least. We get this second reference to Mogru's lizard nature with this lizard eye. Last week when we first met him, he was described as a fat man with eyes like a lizard. And maybe that lizard eye is intimidating to others, but it is nothing like the spark that gleam and tell. Elmar's eye, the one that suggests he's like, this close to violence.

[James Tauber]

Yeah. It's interesting the way that Tolkien has set up the difference between the eyes and. Yes. We've sort of been told to watch for what Tal Elmar's eyes are doing because they're so indicative of what his.

[Alan Sisto]

Emotions are and about to do, it seems.

[James Tauber]

Yeah, yeah, exactly. And of course, we get this. You know, we talked last week about the Jabba the Hutt, like, nature of Mogritt. Yeah. So he doesn't want to do it, but Moguru leads the way, his fat legs and heaving belly adding to the struggle. And he's not described like a lizard after that. No, he's panting like an old dog.

[Alan Sisto]

I love these animal comparisons. The lizard eye and the dog, the.

[James Tauber]

Combination of being lizard like and dog like.

[Alan Sisto]

And now I'm trying to picture, like, a dog lizard, which is really hard to do. They're rather different animals. But, yeah, I mean, it's sort of like at least the lizard, as creepy and sort of negative as it is. I mean, that's a creature that has negative connotations through many cultures. The dog is sort of also this sort of denigration of Mogru's status. But the lizard is at least this sort of evil, conniving, clever. You know, you think dragons, you think great serpents. Yeah, they're evil, but they're smart and they're dangerous.

[James Tauber]

Yeah, yeah.

[Alan Sisto]

Cunning is the great word. But you don't think about that, about a dog.

[James Tauber]

A dog being cunning.

[Alan Sisto]

No, no, you just think About a dog being a dog. And. And here's this poor guy getting to the top, his tongues hanging out. He can't catch his breath.

[James Tauber]

Yeah, he's panting like an old dog. Yeah, it's the panting. That's. That's. Yeah, like a dog. Not. Not necessarily what he looks like. That's true.

[Alan Sisto]

He's not. No, it's not a visual representation like the lizard. Yeah. So when they first get near the top, as. As they approach the hill, they can see the distance. See. Right. They can't see the. The inlet yet. And it's empty. Of course, Mogru gets his, you know, all. All upset about this. Why'd you make me come out here? It's empty. Tell. Omar says wait and look closer. He doesn't mean look more closely, like examine more carefully or take more time to look at the scene. He's saying literally, look closer. Look.

[James Tauber]

Yeah, exactly.

[Alan Sisto]

Look more in the foreground. Yeah.

[James Tauber]

There is a mention of. What is it? The Golden Hill. Is it as well, which. As if we're supposed to know what that is.

[Alan Sisto]

The capitalized.

[James Tauber]

I don't know what the Golden Hill.

[Alan Sisto]

The only golden hill I can think of is. Medusel. I know that's not it.

[James Tauber]

Yeah. I don't know what that's a. Yeah. I don't know that we have anything to compare that to, which is unfortunate.

[Alan Sisto]

Because we get some more clues here, as you'll tell us, but I don't know we know anything about it.

[James Tauber]

Yeah. Because we're told that Moor Hills, the West Highlands, prevented them from seeing the mouth of the river. But as they crest that hill, those highlands recede and now they can see.

[Alan Sisto]

The inlet, but they see the inlet. But does this help us at all with place we've talked before?

[James Tauber]

Yeah.

[Alan Sisto]

The mouth of the. The Mor Thund or the mouth of the Isin, both of which are very different. The Isin comes out on a shore that runs north to south, so it comes out, you know, due west. And the Mor Thon is a little more diagonal, but it comes out sort of at the corner of an east west coastline. Right as it starts to come around. So does this help us at all?

[James Tauber]

I don't know, because I can't help but think. I think I mentioned this before, the sort of fractal nature of coastlines mean that even if in the broad scale of things, the coastline goes east, west, it can have little bits that go north, south, and.

[Alan Sisto]

Absolutely.

[James Tauber]

It's. It's really hard at the scale that we're talking about here to know exactly what direction things are.

[Alan Sisto]

I mean, if the macro scale is a north south coastline, but the micro scale is. Is not Right. I mean that and vice versa. I mean, we could be talking about the Mor Thon, which even though it's an east west shoreline and therefore you'd be thinking, oh, we're looking south to the ocean. But what if. Right. You got a tiny little curve in the coastline.

[James Tauber]

Yeah.

[Alan Sisto]

And it wouldn't have to be very long.

[James Tauber]

Plenty of places in California where the ocean is to the south.

[Alan Sisto]

I'm in Orange county and it's sort of got this like sort of northwest southeast run.

[James Tauber]

Right.

[Alan Sisto]

But it doesn't. There's so many places where you're looking due south.

[James Tauber]

Yeah. And presumably, do you know there'd be.

[Alan Sisto]

Places and they're all. Yeah, even. And you're looking north towards like Malibu. But then Malibu is like looking due south.

[James Tauber]

It's.

[Alan Sisto]

It's crazy.

[James Tauber]

Yeah. So it's, it's. It's really hard to tell.

[Alan Sisto]

What about the mention of the hills, though? I mean, granted there's never any description of where the Isen hits the sea. There's nothing about that it's hilly or that it's smooth. We don't know. But we do know that at least the Penth Ghellan are highlands that are to the west. If you happen to be at the mouth of Morthond.

[James Tauber]

Yep.

[Alan Sisto]

So maybe. But it's not like. It's like we're told that the ice and doesn't have this. You can't really argue an absence. The absence of evidence is not evidence of absence.

[James Tauber]

Right, exactly. And again, I come back to that Golden Hill. Broad cap of the Golden Hill, which is what they're standing on.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah. And it's just the hill near the town. I mean, for the folks in Agar, it's just the hill. I mean, it's their hill. And it doesn't necessarily need to be any taller than any others. It's just taller than surrounding islands.

[James Tauber]

It might not have a party tree, but it's still.

[Alan Sisto]

No, no, that's true. It's not that tall. Yeah. We also get the text says we get an inlet with the waters near its north shore. So the inlet has a north shore. Now the Ison clearly would have a north shore to its mouth because it comes out due west. The Morthod has more of a northwest shore if you look at the map. But you could simply call that a north shore.

[James Tauber]

I still think you could have a situation where it's just bends a little bit. Or whatever. Yeah.

[Alan Sisto]

So we still don't have a clue, is what we're saying, right?

[James Tauber]

I think so, yeah.

[Alan Sisto]

I'm afraid.

[James Tauber]

I mean, it's fun to talk about the possibilities, but I don't think we're.

[Alan Sisto]

Ever going to answer this, like, definitively and say, aha. James and Alan have solved the question of where Tel Omar takes place.

[James Tauber]

Short of finding some additional manuscript or something in the archives, you never know.

[Alan Sisto]

We'll ask the estate if they'll let us into the Bodleian and look at all the archives.

[James Tauber]

Yeah, there you go. We're looking for that secret answer.

[Alan Sisto]

We're going to take the next six months off the show so that we can dive into this.

[James Tauber]

Imagine how much stuff you would have to dig through.

[Alan Sisto]

I know.

[James Tauber]

Just on the off chance that there's a small piece of paper, a little.

[Alan Sisto]

Piece of note that says Tal Elmar was here.

[James Tauber]

Yeah. On the map.

[Alan Sisto]

Gellen Morthon. All right, well, since we won't know and it's doubtful that we'll be looking at the Bodleian anytime soon, tell Elmar points out, look, you know, it took us time to come down to argue with you, to get you to come up here. My goodness, it took you forever to come up here, is what he's probably saying in his head. You. You know, in that amount of time, especially aided by strong wind, those ships have come a lot closer.

[James Tauber]

Oh, yeah. And he points them out, noting the sails or the wings as he calls them, or wind cloth. So again, I love this, this sort of dealing with objects they haven't seen before.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah, yeah. Making up a word, using compound words. Right, yeah. Wind cloths would be sort of the. The compound word, wings being the analogy, but you're right, they don't have a word for it. It's like later when he talks about the ships, he doesn't call them that. He calls them big boats, large boats, because to him, that's all they are. He doesn't have a word for galleon or merchantman.

[James Tauber]

Yeah, exactly. It's just a really, really big boat that seems to have wings or clothes, catches the wind. Then he asks for the Master's council and to confirm that it's something the master needed to see for himself.

[Alan Sisto]

That's arguably a CYA question. Right.

[James Tauber]

He's.

[Alan Sisto]

He's just making sure he doesn't get trouble for dragging the master out. For sure.

[James Tauber]

Yeah.

[Alan Sisto]

But I like it. And it, once again, is sort of continually humbling Mogru and. And kind of making him see, like, you know, you think you're ahead in this game, but you're not. Yep, but that's all right. Mogr will get his turn. Won't. New Year, new wardrobe. It's time to get pieces that work together and hold up over time. And that's why I keep going back to Quint's everyday staples, made with premium materials and honestly, really thoughtful design stuff that's easy to wear and that I can count on. My everyday wardrobe is becoming more and more Quints. Jeans that fit great. They're comfortable even on a long plane flight or stuck in LA traffic. A lightweight jacket for the cold weather here in California and. And a couple of really nice soft cashmere sweaters. Ridiculously soft. Didn't break the bank. Quince works with top makers that meet their high standards, both for craftsmanship but also ethical production. They cut out the middleman. So you're not paying for brand markup, just luxurious product without the luxury price tag. I've been wearing their pieces for long enough now. I can tell you they really do wear well and look good season after season. Refresh your wardrobe with quince. Go to quince.com pony for free shipping on your order and 365 day returns. Now available in Canada too. That's Q U I N C E.com pony free shipping and 365 day returns. Quince.com pony when you listen to Nobody Listens to Paula Poundstone the comedy podcast, you learn stuff.

[Chris Peet]

I've been learning to throw a boomerang because this is the kind of thing that really gets the listeners engaged.

[Alan Sisto]

You know, interviews with people who will make you smarter. Does the amount that you learn protect you from cognitive decline?

[James Tauber]

Paula, don't try to catch that.

[Chris Peet]

Can't people just listen to the show? Can't they just enjoy a delightful treehouse full of information? And I think I'm bleeding.

[Alan Sisto]

Join us and be a nobody. Now. Soon we'll get more Snake references. Snakes? Why did it have to be snakes? But before we do, I want to take a minute to thank the amazing community that has grown up around this show. I mean, after all, there is a lot more talk going on at the Prancing Pony Podcast than just us.

[James Tauber]

That's right. The PPP really does have a warm and welcoming listener community. If you've got questions or just want to talk about how much you love Middle Earth, be sure to check out our common room on Facebook and across all social media. On Facebook, just look for the Prancing Pony podcast. Yeah, there's a page, but you're going to want to join the group for that great fan community.

[Alan Sisto]

Indeed. Now on every social media platform other than Facebook, we are simply rancingponypod and you can find our subreddit r Prancingponypod. And please consider checking out my Daily show, today's Tolkien Times on YouTube or on your favorite podcast apps. Get your daily Middle Earth fix with everything from Tolkien Tuesdays to First Stage Fridays. Be sure to watch or listen at YouTube.com rinsingponypod James, take us back and let's see what Mogru's response is to this sort of upstart.

[James Tauber]

Indeed. Moghru stared, and he panted now with fear as much as for the labor of walking uphill, for bluster as he might. He had heard many dark tales of the Go Hilleg from old women in his youth, but his heart was cunning and black with anger. Sidelong he looked first at Hazard and then at his son, and licked his lips, but he let not his smile be seen. You beg to be my messenger, he said, and so shalt thou be. Go now swiftly, and summon the men to the moot hill. But that will not end thy errand, he added, as Talma made ready to run straight from the fields. Thou shalt go with all speed to the strand, for there the ships, if ships they be, will halt most likely, and set men ashore. Tidings thou must win there, and spy out well what is afoot. Come not back at all, unless it is with news that will help our councils. Go, and spare thyself not. I command thee. It is time of peril to the town. Hazard seemed about to speak in protest, but he bowed his head and said naught, knowing it vain. Tul Elmar stood one moment, eyeing Mogru as one might a snake in the path, but he saw well that the Master's cunning had been greater than his. He had made his own trap, and Mogu had used it. He declared a time of peril to the town, and he had the right to command any service. It was death to disobey him, and even if Tal Elmar had not named himself as messenger, desiring to prevent any secret word being passed to servants of the Master, all would say that the choice was just. A scout should be sent, and who better than a strong, bold youth swift on his feet? But there was malice, black malice in the errand nonetheless, certainly definitely some black malice there.

[Alan Sisto]

Moguru is not looking out for Tal Omar. We start with Moguru finally seeing with his own eyes the sight that Hazad and Tal Omar have tried to tell him about and now we get this fear based response. Now he's panting at least as much out of fear as. As out of mere exhaustion. And that's pretty telling.

[James Tauber]

Yeah, it is. Can I just say, Black Malice is a great band name, isn't it?

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah, I mean, it's. I guess it depends on the genre. I don't see Black Malice being like a great K pop band, but it does sound like a really good heavy metal band.

[James Tauber]

Exactly. Heavy. Heavy metal for sure.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah. It could be punk.

[James Tauber]

Yeah, it could be punk.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah. Yeah. I don't see it being like, you know, the next, you know, like the next Taylor Swift sort of thing.

[James Tauber]

Who knows what it would refer to if it was a Taylor Swift. But anyway, let's not worry about that.

[Alan Sisto]

No, please, not so Hazard.

[James Tauber]

Well, Moghru like Hazard has heard the horror stories of the Numenoreans from childhood. Right. Again, leading us to think this is later in the Second Age rather than.

[Alan Sisto]

Earlier in terms of these terrible tales amongst the inhabitants of the western coast of Middle Earth. Letter 131. Tolkien explains to Milton Waldman that the Numenoreans carry their evil to Middle Earth, but he's talking about this being after the temple under Sauron, so very, very end of the Numenorean, you know, period of history. They're about to go away. And he says that they carry their evil to Middle Earth and there become cruel and wicked lords of necromancy, slaying and tormenting men. And the old legends are overlaid with dark tales of horror. So the tales show up then.

[James Tauber]

Yeah. Although I can't help but think, and we discussed this the last couple of weeks, how much the tales might be exaggerations, even though they're potentially foreshadowing what was gonna happen. It reminds me of the stories that emerged around Gollum when, during the hunt for Gollum, you hear these stories about ghosts breaking into houses and stealing babies. Right. Doesn't that sort of feel like this?

[Alan Sisto]

It does feel, yeah. It's like an exaggeration. So like an urban. Urban legend.

[James Tauber]

Yeah. Like telling ghost stories. I don't know, I just. It's really hard to tell how much of the stories that both Hazard and Mogr have heard in their childhood actually reflect things that went on.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah.

[James Tauber]

As opposed to.

[Alan Sisto]

That's true.

[James Tauber]

Tales that have grown in the telling.

[Alan Sisto]

Because things like that, like when the Numenoreans did that, they also weren't doing that in this region of Middle Earth. Right. I mean, we're told specifically Tolkien Explains in that letter to Waldman that that's not the case in the Northwest, that that's where the faithful go. They've got their base at Pelargir, but they also go up to Gil Galad a lot in Lindon. Well, this is. Wherever this is. Mouth of the eyes and their mouth of the Marthon. It's between those two. This is in. And as we'll see later, clearly the men that he encounter are faithful, not Kingsmen. And so we're not talking about people that would commit these acts.

[James Tauber]

Yeah. I mean, that doesn't mean that Kingsmen haven't.

[Alan Sisto]

No. Or the stories of the Kingsman might have come up from the South.

[James Tauber]

Yeah.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah.

[James Tauber]

It's really difficult. Really difficult to say.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah. I do feel like. I think you're right, that this is more urban legend than historical fact.

[James Tauber]

Yeah.

[Alan Sisto]

Especially when we also combine this with what we've learned about the people of Agar, that they don't believe the things that they haven't seen in their lifetimes. I mean, they clearly believe this stuff.

[James Tauber]

Right, right.

[Alan Sisto]

But. But in terms of, like, actual history, like the fact that they are kin to this town, that. That we'll find out next week. Tal Omar had to go spy on, you know, that they were kin with them, but they've forgotten that.

[James Tauber]

Yeah.

[Alan Sisto]

And that's the kind of thing that if you forget that, but you remember these urban legends and myths of, you know, baby stealing ghosts.

[James Tauber]

Yep.

[Alan Sisto]

Then maybe, you know, maybe it's just not reflective of reality. I don't know.

[James Tauber]

Yeah. But it's interesting that even. Even when Mowgri's afraid of. Because of these stories that he's heard, he's still calculating and malicious.

[Alan Sisto]

Oh, yeah, he's nasty.

[James Tauber]

He gives both the guys a little side eye, and then he's said to lick his lips, which is not a direct lizard reference, but it sure does feel like one does.

[Alan Sisto]

Totally. I mean, you sort of, like, see that little forked tongue coming out of his mouth. And that, of course, made me think of Wormtongue. But that licking his lips is a direct callback to Wormtongue, isn't it? I mean, there's that moment after he's been sort of cast out, so to speak.

[James Tauber]

He's.

[Alan Sisto]

I think this is on the stairs as after he's been kicked out of the hall. Wormtongue looked from face to face. In his eyes was the hunted look of a beast seeking some gap in the ring of his enemies. He licked his lips with a long, pale tongue. We don't get A lot of lip licking in Lord of the Rings. I mean, I don't know. Aragorn and Arwen did kiss, but we're not told anything specifically about that. We also get Moguru's not visible smirk as his plans start to come together. We're just sort of missing him twirling his mustache. He's starting to get a little, you know, melodramatic villain here. I love it. Yeah.

[James Tauber]

Yeah. And what, what plans are those? Well, you know, the plan is to get rid of Tal Elmar by making him Mogrude's messenger. Go and get the men, some of them, to our meeting place. Yeah, yeah, but, but that's only part A of the plan. Part B is for Tal Elmar to be recon and point man, to go gather news of the ships and men and don't come back until you have useful information.

[Alan Sisto]

That's right. And this is where it gets really interesting. Moguru justifies these commands by declaring a time of peril to the town. This has the feel of, like, you know, the declaration of martial law. That would give, you know, a leader of a country, a prime minister, a president, the authority to command people in a way that he would not ordinarily have and maybe not be as restrained by the laws. And I think that's what we see when Hazad starts to speak and then just bows his head like, oh, it's pointless now. Right? Like, I, I.

[James Tauber]

He's triggered that.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Like, oh, well, now he's in. He's implemented the peril to the town, so there's no appeal from that. Right. This is. Habeas corpus has been suspended.

[James Tauber]

Right, Exactly. I'm also thinking of Babylon 5, you know, the first season episode where he. Where Sinclair. It's the union issues, and he Basically. An axe. I can't remember what it's called.

[Alan Sisto]

I can't remember either. But I remember that because it was Sinclair, and I was never a huge Sinclair fan. Season one was a little rough for.

[James Tauber]

Me, but yeah, but yeah, that shifting the powers in order to, like, an.

[Alan Sisto]

Emergency declaration of, you know, now I'm. I now have this power. And it's always interesting, by the way, that the person who can use that power is also the person who has the right to declare that power.

[James Tauber]

That feels a little bit of a loophole there.

[Alan Sisto]

I'm seeing a bit of a. Yeah. So Hazad knows it's pointless to protest. I mean, there's.

[James Tauber]

It's.

[Alan Sisto]

It's death to disobey him. And in fact, in the next reading, we'll. We'll see that he even acknowledges Moguru's right to do this.

[James Tauber]

Yeah.

[Alan Sisto]

Not that he's correct. His right. His legal right.

[James Tauber]

Exactly. Yes. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And Tal Elmar is frozen for a moment. And we get another snake reference.

[Alan Sisto]

I love it. The snake in the path. I mean, man, Tolkien, when he. When he pictures a guy in a particular way, you will see it reflected over and over again. I'm thinking back to when Gollum was compared to a dog. We get cur. We also get like dog like behavior, even when dog isn't mentioned. And it's really interesting to see that he just keeps carrying that word picture on. And here we get it again with a snake in the path. But Tal Omar, though, he's quick. He knows he's been outsmarted here. He's been hoisted with his own petard, actually. Like, oh, you wanted to be my messenger, you're my messenger. Be careful what you wish for. Quick sidebar, by the way, because I love that phrase, hoist in his own petard. That actually goes back to Hamlet. For those of you who don't know, hoist is or was a past participle of an archaic verb, hoists, so much so that hoist is now the present tense instead. And hoisted is the past participle. So we might say hoisted with his own petard. But Shakespeare said hoist meant the same thing. It's a past tense or past participle. A petard was a small bomb used to blow down doors and breach walls. So to be hoist with his own petard is for a bomb maker to be killed by his own device. So tell Omar pretty much always with his own petard here.

[James Tauber]

Indeed. Yeah. He'd created the trap for himself. And Mogr, instead of falling for it, has actually used it against him. And we get the clarification here that his martial law declaration, this time of peril to the town.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah.

[James Tauber]

Gives Mogru the legal right to command anyone to do anything. It's the price. Yeah. And the price of disobedience is death.

[Alan Sisto]

Full authoritarian powers here. While there's a peril to the town, tell Omar even knows in his own head. Like, look, even if I hadn't put myself forward to be the ideal messenger, I'd be the right choice. I mean, they need a scout. And who better than a quick, agile guy that nobody wants to fight, right? He is really the only one. What are they gonna do, send his odd out? His sons are somewhere else. His 16 other sons. But he knows Moguru isn't doing this because Talamar will be the best scout. He's doing it out of malice and in an attempt to. To get him killed.

[James Tauber]

Yeah, yeah. And in the last few lines we get more on this as the only person who cares about his dad. Hazard he'd be gone, out of the way.

[Alan Sisto]

I mean, his brothers don't care. They're not going to defy Mogru.

[James Tauber]

Right, Right. Exactly. And it's unlikely that Tal Elmar would return. So he knows this isn't just about him. It's also about his father.

[Alan Sisto]

And when it's about his father, that's when we start to get the gleam in the eye.

[James Tauber]

The gleam in the eye. The flint eye.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah. Yeah. I mean, if it was just him, I don't know that he'd think twice, as we'll see next week. He'd sent him on a similar mission before and tell Omar, only then realizes, oh, he was trying to get rid of me a year ago.

[James Tauber]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Alan Sisto]

He didn't put two and two together until now.

[James Tauber]

Yeah.

[Alan Sisto]

And it's because he's like, well, yeah, of course I'm the guy for the job, you know? But if it's gonna make a situation where his father's at risk, well, we'll see what happens next, won't we? Yeah.

[James Tauber]

Okay. Alan, would you like to continue rating?

[Alan Sisto]

I will. Once more, Tal Elmar looked at the master and then at his father. And then his glance passed to Mogru's staff. The flint flash was in his eyes and in his heart. The desire to kill. Mogru saw it and quailed. Go, go. He shouted. I have commanded thee. Thou art quicker to cry wolf than to start on the hunt. Go at once. Go, my son, said Hazad. Do not defy the master, not where he has the right. For then thou defiest all the town beyond thy power. And were I the master, I would choose thee, dear though thou be, for thou hast more heart and luck than any of this folk. But come again, and let not the dark ship have thee. Be not overbold, for better would be ill tidings brought by thee living than the seamen without herald tell. Elmar bowed and made the sign of submission to his father and not to the master, and strode away two paces. And then he turned. Listen, Mogru, whom a base folk in their folly have named their master, he cried, maybe I shall return against thy hopes. My father I leave in thy care if I come, be it with word of peace or with a foe on my heel. Then thy mastership will be at an end. And thy life also. If I find that he has suffered any evil or dishonor that thou couldst prevent, thy knife men and clubbearers will not help thee. I will wring thy fat neck with my bare hands if needs be. Or I will hunt thee through the wilds to the black pools. Then a new thought struck him and he strode back to the master and laid hands on his staff. Mogr cringed and flung up a fat arm as if to ward off a blow. Thou art mad today, he croaked. Do me no violence, or thou wilt pay for it with death. Heardest thou not the words of thy father? I heard and I obey, said Tel Omar. But first errand is to the men, and there is need now of haste. Little honour have I among them for they know well thy scorn of us. What heed will they pay if the slaves, bastards as thou namest us, when I am not by, comes crying the summons to the moothill in thy name. Without token thy staff will serve. It is well known. Nay, I will not beat thee with it. Yet with that he rested the staff from Mogru's hand and sped down the hill, his heart yet too hot with wrath to take thought for what lay before him. Wow. Spicy Tal Elmar today.

[James Tauber]

Yeah, I'm loving it. So we start with Tal Elmar still standing, frozen as he thinks.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah, you can see the wheels turning.

[James Tauber]

Exactly. Yeah. As soon as he sees my staff, though, a thought comes to him. And we see through the rest of this reading how he builds to the moment.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah, he sure does. We begin with the dreaded flint flash. Right. Earlier today we read about the gleam of the eye of Tal Elmar. Stung like a goad. Well, last week, Mogru caught the glint of Tal Elmar's eye. And at that point he is said to have turned pale, to have blanched.

[James Tauber]

Yeah, because he knows anyone, anyone who knows Telama knows.

[Alan Sisto]

When you see that look, it's time to go.

[James Tauber]

Yeah. And in the first week we read that, yeah, those who had seen that fire called him flinty and respected him whether they loved him. So clearly there's this fear, respect here on Mogru's part because now he's said to have quailed when he saw the flint flash. This time accompanied by a desire to kill.

[Alan Sisto]

A desire to kill. How do you see the. I mean, like the anger he must have seen in Tel Omar's eye. It's one thing to be like, I'm ready to be violent. I'm ready to defend my father. And, you know, I know what you're trying to do here, but this is like murder in his eyes.

[James Tauber]

Yeah.

[Alan Sisto]

He's ready to take this guy's life and Mogu knows it.

[James Tauber]

Yeah.

[Alan Sisto]

Obviously, Tal Amar is painted as the hero of this story. So this must be either a thing that Tolkien is trying to say, even good people will still sometimes have these dark desires, or this is a righteous anger and he's perfectly justified to want to kill Mogru.

[James Tauber]

Yeah. So the question is, is this a Feanorian anger?

[Alan Sisto]

Right, right. Yeah. Or Amer on the Pelennor Fields anger, you know?

[James Tauber]

Right, right. Yeah.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah. This is an interesting situation. I mean, Mogru isn't threatening either of them with death, but he is certainly trying to get Tal Elmar off the stage. That's interesting. It's clear that there is a fury, a wrath in Tal Elmar. Yeah.

[James Tauber]

And I mean, it strikes me as not necessarily being a rational response. He's genuinely.

[Alan Sisto]

It's like red mentibilities.

[James Tauber]

Yeah. He's genuinely concerned about his father.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah. It's. Anytime his father is under threat at all, his Response goes from 0 to 100. It's intense. So Mo grew to his credit. I mean, I don't mean that any sort of moral sense. I just mean to his bravery credit, he doesn't let his fear get the better of him. I mean, he is afraid, but he knows how to act. Here he reminds Telomar, look, I've given you a command, and the command is lawful because apparel to the town. I wanted to ask you this question, though. He even gets a dig in on him about Crying Wolf. That's a real world fable. Goes all the way back to Aesop's fables, more than 2500 years old in the primary world.

[James Tauber]

Yep.

[Alan Sisto]

Do you think Tolkie would have changed this to be something else, or is he doing one of these asterisk?

[James Tauber]

Realities like this probably goes to kind of the universality of folk tales. There's lots of recorded instances where a story that's told in one tradition gets a very similar story told in. There's a very similar story told in a different tradition in a way that it's not clear that two could have ever spoken to one another or come from a common source. So I wonder if. I mean, we're bringing a lot into this, of course, but Tolkien was certainly aware of this whole concept of this, of these recurring themes among legends and mythology and so on. That said, he's of course he has chessboards being talked about. That's true in Lord of the Rings.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah.

[James Tauber]

So, yeah, it's. It's. It's hard to say whether. Whether he had that sort of universality of folk tales in mind or if he's just bringing in something that. That the reader would understand a bit better.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah, that's a good point. I mean, in whatever the case, this is a translation, of course, there's always that way out. There's always that way out.

[James Tauber]

Right, exactly.

[Alan Sisto]

Which leaves you this chilling challenge to find a way out. Yeah. It's always. Well, he said this because here's the actual legend that their people have, but I translated as crying wolf, because then you all would understand.

[James Tauber]

Exactly.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah.

[James Tauber]

And you certainly get that in translation a lot, where you have to translate things to different creatures or different. Yeah.

[Alan Sisto]

Now I'm thinking of Darmak and Jalad at Tanagra from Star Trek. If it's like, oh, you're quicker to cry Dharmak and Jalad than to go do this job, that wouldn't mean anything to the reader.

[James Tauber]

Exactly.

[Alan Sisto]

So if your history is through analogy.

[James Tauber]

Like that, that you.

[Alan Sisto]

You've got to find a different way of translation.

[James Tauber]

Yeah, exactly. Now, Hazard reminds him of the right of Mou to command him and the lack of any right of Talar to defy him.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah, you. You. There's no appeal. You deny him, you defy him, you're defying the town.

[James Tauber]

Yeah, yeah. And it's. It's more than just do what he tells you, son. Hazard tells Tal Elmar that if he were in charge, he'd have made the same call. Yeah, Right. Just as Tal Elman knows he's the right guy for the job, so does Hazard. It's.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah, it's obvious.

[James Tauber]

Yeah.

[Alan Sisto]

You know.

[James Tauber]

Yeah, exactly.

[Alan Sisto]

But he does remind him, look, it is better for you to come back with bad news than to get no news until these gohilig arrive in force. I mean, Moguru didn't say that, but obviously. Sure. Mogru's intent might be to get Tal Omar killed.

[James Tauber]

Right.

[Alan Sisto]

But he would like some news. It would be helpful to have news.

[James Tauber]

Right, right, exactly.

[Alan Sisto]

And his dad's like, you know, don't get yourself killed.

[James Tauber]

Tal Elmar, as usual, respects his father and he bows in submission to him, but not to Moguru.

[Alan Sisto]

I love that little aside.

[James Tauber]

When he begins to walk away, he is obviously still going through those cockstakes. He gets two steps, he turns, and you can see the rest of the plan coming into place.

[Alan Sisto]

And it's interesting I mean, we'll get to the staff thing because it feels to me like. Because the text says something about he glanced at the staff, but we'll get to that. He lays into Mogroup, but not for himself. Not like, hey man, you're just trying to get me killed. And I can see right through your plan. It is all about his father. I. I know you don't want me to survive this, but maybe I will. Which means I'll come back.

[James Tauber]

Yeah.

[Alan Sisto]

So you better watch out. Yeah.

[Chris Peet]

And.

[James Tauber]

And while I'm gone, you're completely irresponsible for my dad's well being.

[Alan Sisto]

That's right. You've sent me away, so it's on you. Yeah, exactly.

[James Tauber]

Regardless of what news I come back with. If he has suffered anything that you could have prevented, it's interesting that he puts in that. That extra clause, if you could have prevented it.

[Alan Sisto]

Right, that's true.

[James Tauber]

Thoughtful contract. Right, Exactly. Well, as long as it's. As long as it's something you. You could have prevented. Yeah.

[Alan Sisto]

It wouldn't be fair. If he. If he has a heart attack and dies in the field, and it's not on you, then I'm not going to kill you for that. That's generous of you.

[James Tauber]

But it's funny that, you know, it's. It's.

[Alan Sisto]

You're right. That's very unusual. Like, why would he say that? Why would he just say, if something happens to him while I'm gone, I'm going to kill you?

[James Tauber]

Right.

[Alan Sisto]

Like he actually takes the time to say, well, so long as it was.

[James Tauber]

Preventable if you could have prevented it.

[Alan Sisto]

Yes. Yeah. Preventable by you. Yeah.

[James Tauber]

If that happens, then I'll kill you. I'll be clear.

[Alan Sisto]

And I will find a way to kill you. This is like, I will hunt you down. I will kill you.

[James Tauber]

I will kill you.

[Alan Sisto]

Yes, exactly.

[James Tauber]

This is his Liam Neeson moment.

[Alan Sisto]

And this is where the text says that a new thought struck him. But I keep going back to the beginning of this passage when we read that his glance passed to Moguru's staff right before we get the flint flash and desire to kill. So I'm not buying that it's only at this point that he's thinking of the staff, but maybe at this point is when he realizes how he can utilize the staff.

[James Tauber]

Well, that's what I'm wondering, whether he notices it. And that's where we get that initial mention. But then the implications of that and what action he could take only comes when it says a new thought struck him.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah, certainly the farewell line of I'm not going to beat you with it yet. That probably only came into mind just now.

[James Tauber]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. But whenever the idea actually came to mind, he grabs the staff and again, acting in fear, Mogu raises his arm like he's going to deflect a strike.

[Alan Sisto]

Like you're going to stop him if he decides to kill you.

[James Tauber]

Don't hurt me or you'll die. Haven't you listened to a word your father's told you?

[Alan Sisto]

That's right. Oh, I. I hear him, I hear you, and I obey. But since your first task is for me to go and gather the men, I need something that proves that the news I'm bringing them is true. I mean, and he makes a very good point. Look, they know how much you hate my father and me. Why would they listen to the slaves bastards, man.

[James Tauber]

Yeah, and catch that bit as thou names us, when I am not by. He knows what names. He's got a cold.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah, right.

[James Tauber]

He's demonstrating that knowledge. You think you've kept that a secret? We know. We know what you know.

[Alan Sisto]

We know what you call us. And by the way, folks, if you are following along in the text, and you should be, you'll see a footnote here where Christopher explains that he's left the text here. As it stands, I don't think he's referring to the use of bastards, even if Tolkien famously doesn't use that sort of language. I think what he's talking about here is the mismatch with the subject and the verb. Because in the text, it should either be. Grammatically, it should either be if the slaves bastards come crying, plural, therefore come, or if one of the slaves bastards comes crying. So we just have a mismatch, a tense match with the. The subject in the. Yeah.

[James Tauber]

It's interesting that Christopher chooses to leave that. Presumably it's because he wasn't sure which.

[Alan Sisto]

Way is he trying to go.

[James Tauber]

Yeah. So he just left the text as is with.

[Alan Sisto]

Fair enough. Exactly. With the caveat of I had to leave this as it is. Like, don't blame this on me, folks. I do love it when Christopher does that. No, tell. Omar's like, look, I need a token. I need something to prove to these people that you have sent me and I'm going to take your staff, because everybody recognizes that.

[James Tauber]

Yeah, And I love that line. I will not beat thee with it. Yet.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah, yet's doing some heavy lifting, man.

[James Tauber]

It's interesting that given that emergency powers have been set in place, Tal Elmar understands the constraints that he's operating in. But that doesn't restrict him from making these threats.

[Alan Sisto]

That's right. Because in the future, when there is no peril to the town, I will beat you with this staff. Yeah, this is your staff. It's the one I'm going to beat you with. But not now.

[James Tauber]

Nothing that says that during the time of peril, you're not allowed to make.

[Alan Sisto]

Threats as long as those threats aren't executed until after the time of peril.

[James Tauber]

Until after you've done what you were commanded to do.

[Alan Sisto]

Commanded to do. You spy out and then. Yeah. Go get the news. Oh, man.

[James Tauber]

So instead of waiting for Mogru to hand it to him, of course, Tal Elmar rips it out of his hand and runs down the hill. Yeah. Yeah.

[Alan Sisto]

And this is where I think we do see a little bit of not weakness, but like, the very human nature of Tal Omar. He is so angry right now, he doesn't even have the ability to think of what's in front of him. I mean, who am I to judge because I've been there. Right? It's. It's. You're in the moment and you're just.

[James Tauber]

You've confronted the master of the town. Yeah, he's.

[Alan Sisto]

Well, no, I mean, we've all been there.

[James Tauber]

We've all been there. Who hasn't had to grab the staff of the Master of the town, the.

[Alan Sisto]

Job of the hut? Grabbing the. No, but you know what I mean. When. When you get that red mist, you know, you're not thinking straight. You're not thinking straight, and you need a Snickers man, you know, you're not yourself, but, you know, we're not too angry to think about what's in front of him. So what do we think is in front of him and how should he proceed? I kind of want to. I know we're told what he does. Do. I want to talk through with you a little bit here before we move on about what we would advise if we were, you know, do we assume.

[James Tauber]

That he thinks he's probably going to die?

[Alan Sisto]

That's the thing. I mean, I. I think he knows that Moguru wants him to die.

[James Tauber]

Right.

[Alan Sisto]

But I think he's listened to his father because he always listens to his father. And his father's like, come back because news is even not super helpful. News is better than to have you dead and have our first warning be the men coming with your body on a banner, you know? Yeah, exactly. The killer Brimbor method. That's not how they want to find out they're being invaded.

[James Tauber]

Right.

[Alan Sisto]

So I think he does or will when he's calmed down enough, at least through that, but going and first persuading the men. Right. This is. He knows his life isn't going to be in danger from them because he can take any of them in a fight. He could take any three of them in a fight at a time. Yeah. So going to tell the men in the fields, hey, I've got his staff. You need to go to the moot hill. Right now. We've got a time of peril to the town. That part isn't any danger to him at all.

[James Tauber]

Right.

[Alan Sisto]

But how he executes that could be important. I mean, I'm thinking in the sense of if he's playing the long game and looking to the future, I don't know that he necessarily wants to be the master of this useless town, but he certainly could weaken Mogru's position by playing this. Right. You know, I don't know that he should necessarily, but he could do things to. I don't know. I'm just trying to think like, how would you tell him. How would you advise him to proceed in terms of telling the guys the news?

[James Tauber]

Yeah.

[Alan Sisto]

Should he tell them any details or just go to the Mood Hill? Should he say, I'm going to go down and spy, he's commanded me to spy out the arrival of these men, These men are coming. Or should he just say, you've been summoned?

[James Tauber]

I don't know. I mean, he's got the staff, so he figures he doesn't need to necessarily provide any other justification.

[Alan Sisto]

That's true. He doesn't have to convince.

[James Tauber]

Yeah.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah, that's fair. And he's in a hurry because he's supposed to go gather the news. Right. As quickly as he can.

[James Tauber]

Yeah.

[Alan Sisto]

So this is just go, let's just get there, tell them in. Go gather the other guys, like.

[James Tauber]

Yep.

[Alan Sisto]

Go to one spot until one guy and say you go gather these guys and then he goes over to someplace else and, you know, tells him, you go gather these two guys or whatever, whoever the council members are. What are the elders or whatever they might be?

[James Tauber]

Yeah.

[Alan Sisto]

Yep. I mean, it may be all the men. It may be literally every man in the town of fighting age.

[James Tauber]

Yep.

[Alan Sisto]

That has to go to the moot hill.

[James Tauber]

But given that it's a time of peril, do you think perhaps everyone should be on alert and doing something?

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah, yeah, that's true. I mean, if nothing else, preparing.

[James Tauber]

Yeah.

[Alan Sisto]

But yeah, maybe advising him to. To do that part as Quickly as possible so that he can get to. To the hill or to the Strand to see what's going on.

[James Tauber]

To the Strand. Yeah.

[Alan Sisto]

As we'll see, that's a big task. Going to the strand is no small thing.

[James Tauber]

Could I just ask, coming back to that use of the term strand, has that been used any other time other than the Langstrand until here?

[Alan Sisto]

No. Yeah. In the previous passage, when you were reading his commands to Tal Omar, straight from the fields, Thou shalt go with all speed, speed to the strand. And it's capitalized just like Golden Hill is capitalized.

[James Tauber]

Interesting.

[Alan Sisto]

And I don't know that we've seen that word in relation to the shore.

[James Tauber]

Right. Just the fact that it's capitalized. I'm just wondering if he had the Langstrand in mind. Yeah.

[Alan Sisto]

I mean, this is where we come back to the fact that while we don't know, we do get that slightly suggestive way of Tolkien saying, this takes place at the mouth of the Isen question mark, or Morthond, period, which makes me think he initially thought Isen and then changed his mind and settles on Morathon. But did he settle on that after having written all of this?

[James Tauber]

I suspect so, because we did get that indication right at the start, and we can come back to this in the next episode. But I get the impression that he realized that in order to incorporate it into the geography of Lord of the Rings, he was going to need to make some changes. Yeah, Right. Because he said. He talks about having to do that. So it's entirely possible that he decided afterwards, I need to fit this in. And he hadn't gone through that process of.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah, that's fair. That actually makes a lot of sense that he would have written it. Well, I mean, we saw, because of all the various versions, you know, when a man could walk from Rome to York unshot.

[James Tauber]

Yeah.

[Alan Sisto]

Oh, just don't get hit in the channel, man. You know, when it was written that way, he didn't even have it connected at all. So these connections, as so often seem to have happened, he would build the connections in the rewrites and tie it in more closely. So, you know, he writes the story first, or at least the first sketch of the story. Yep. Obviously very incomplete. And then later on comes back and.

[James Tauber]

Says, even if he's drawing in ideas from other stories, the fact that this has echoes of the Numenoreans might not have been his initial intention. They were the Numenoreans. You know what I mean? Like, he would have. I'm just thinking about, you know, the Hobbit obviously makes so many references, whether it's Thingol or the Sundering of the elves, the Gondolin, all that kind of stuff. Yeah, they're mentioned, but not in a way that I think Tolkien intended at the time. No. For this to be related. It was just, oh, I liked this idea. I like this idea.

[Alan Sisto]

I have this idea of Thingol, But I'm not going to introduce Thingol, but I am going to introduce a character that's pretty much Thingol.

[James Tauber]

Exactly. He lives in exactly a place that's described exactly the same.

[Alan Sisto]

Pretty much like Thousand Caves, but in Mirkwood.

[James Tauber]

Yeah. So I wonder if maybe there's a little bit of that. I hadn't really thought about this before. And that could explain the folktales about what these people do. Right. He may have just been drawing on that idea of there being a seafaring, superior group of people that come and do these things. And it was only midway through that he decided, oh, what if I actually make this them the Numenoreans.

[Alan Sisto]

And only the typescripts would have had any sort of revisional process done to it. The manuscript, which is what we're into coming up soon.

[James Tauber]

I think so. Not yet, but soon.

[Alan Sisto]

Not yet, but soon. Wouldn't have even had anything other than just his initial thoughts.

[James Tauber]

Yeah.

[Alan Sisto]

So, yeah.

[James Tauber]

Yeah.

[Alan Sisto]

That's an interesting way to. To consider it. And yeah, I think you're right. It does certainly explain why we don't have answers to so many of these questions.

[James Tauber]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's an interesting thought to consider that inconsistencies between this and what we know about the Numenoreans may not be that different from inconsistencies between the Hobbit and the Silmarillion.

[Alan Sisto]

That's sort of like. That's a very good way, thinking it through. I like that. Thank you, James.

[James Tauber]

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[Alan Sisto]

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[James Tauber]

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[Alan Sisto]

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[James Tauber]

We told you about the amazing PPP community after our earlier break. If you're part of that community and want to enjoy something even more special, come join the Fellowship of the Podcast on Patreon. You get to be in the best discord community around, one that includes host hangouts and even live episode recordings.

[Alan Sisto]

And of course, your support there is what enables me to work full time doing the shows, the ppp, Today's Tolkien Times, Rings of Power Wrap up and my streaming show the PPP Place. When you join, you also get episode postscripts, ad free episodes, free merch and more.

[James Tauber]

And you can join our questions after Nightfall episodes or even appear as a guest in the north wing. Go to patreon.com prancingponypod to show your support and join the Fellowship of the Podcast.

[Alan Sisto]

And don't forget to rate and review on Apple Podcasts and Spotify. And please recommend us to your friends. You can do that directly on Spotify now, just by sharing the show with your friends. James I'm getting distinct Indiana Jones vibes coming up.

[James Tauber]

Yeah, why did it have to be snakes?

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah. Can you take us away?

[James Tauber]

Absolutely. Dark lay the woods before him in the valley between Agar and the Downs by the shore. It was still morning, and more than an hour ere the noon, but when he came under the trees he halted and took thought, and knew that he was shaken with fear. Seldom had he wandered far from the hills of his home, and never alone nor deep into the wood, for all his folk dreaded the forest. And it's at this point where the typescript ends, and we're just getting a manuscript to Tolkien's handwriting. It was swift for the eye to travel to the shore, but slow for feet, and the distance was greater than it seemed. The wood was dark and unwholesome, for there were stagnant waters between the hills of Agar and the hills of the Shoreland, and many snakes lived there. It was silent too, for though it was spring, few birds built there, or even alighted as they sped on to the cleaner land by the sea. There dwelt in the wood also dark spirits that hated men, or so ran the tales of the people of Snake and swamp, and wood demon, Tal El Mar thought as he stood within the shadow. But it needed short thought to come to the conclusion that all three were less peril than to return with lying excuse, or with none to the town and its master.

[Alan Sisto]

Well, he's not wrong on that count. We skipped a bit at the very beginning, a part that very briefly covered his spreading the news to the guys out in the fields. And essentially he just tells them, throws the staff on the ground, telling them to hurry and then heads off to get job number two done. So he, he followed our advice to just get that part out of the way as quickly as you can.

[James Tauber]

And that's when he said to run over the long grass meads and arrive at the first bit of the woods. So before we get to the part we read, is there anything here that helps us with the geolocation? Acres on the south slopes, long grass meads and dark woods in a valley between the town and the small hills. The downs at the shore acres on.

[Alan Sisto]

The south slopes first makes me think the Moorthond area. But I don't think we are given enough of physical description of the land at either of those locations to know about the long grass meads or a dark woods in a valley between them. I don't know. I mean it could be either of those two for sure. Either near the mouth of the more thunder near the the mouth of the Ison, even the acres on the south slopes. Because if there's hills, it doesn't matter if you're talking about hills next to an east west river that comes out, you know, into the sea directly to the west or a north south river that comes out on an east west shore. In either one, the hills are going to have a south side.

[James Tauber]

Right, Right.

[Alan Sisto]

It just doesn't matter. Again, I feel like there's tantalizing clues but not enough sure would want to know like, okay, so we've got a town that's I think we decided three leagues away from the shore was how far they were looking from the hill, which is six miles. So there's six miles from the shore, but that doesn't tell us anything. Like we just don't know.

[James Tauber]

Yeah, I do love that way. He says that it's quick for the eye but slow for the feet.

[Alan Sisto]

Oh, I love that.

[James Tauber]

That's a great way of saying it. Further than it looks.

[Alan Sisto]

I love it. I might have to borrow that sometime. We do get a timestamp here, but also, as we'll note, not necessarily an accurate timestamp. The text says it's about 11am that means it's been a very full morning. We started with Hazad and Tal Elmar on the hill above their town, looking south and west, three leagues away. When the Boy first spotted the ships. Then we had time for Hazad's history lesson and the descent down the hill back to town.

[James Tauber]

The first encounter with Mogru where he tried to blow them off but eventually got him to come to the top of the hill himself. And then when he spotted the ships, declared a time of emergency, issued orders and Tel Elmar took his staff. And that's all before an hour ere the noon. But we remember we said that the timestamp wasn't accurate.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah, I don't think it is. Because last week when tell Elmar and Hazad went back down the the hill to meet with Mogru to tell him, hey, by the way, there's these ships out there. We read this. So Hazad and his son went down the hillside and it was noon. And in the town were a few people. So if it was noon, then it's definitely not an hour before the noon when he gets to this spot. So which is the more likely timeline? Was it noon then and around 2 2:30 in the afternoon now, or were they on the hill very, very early and back in town around 9:30 or 10 so that he could actually be here at about 11:00am?

[James Tauber]

Yeah, I mean it would have to.

[Alan Sisto]

Be very early, very early. I tend to think that this is the erroneous mark and that the first one was right. Because later, and I don't know if it's the end of this week or the beginning of next, he sees the sun going down.

[James Tauber]

Yep.

[Alan Sisto]

That makes me feel like he got here later in the afternoon. So I just think, yeah, it wasn't an hour air the noon. It might have been an hour after the noon.

[James Tauber]

Right.

[Alan Sisto]

You know, just one misplaced word. But this is the kind of thing you would have caught in a revision, I suppose.

[James Tauber]

I'm sure, I'm sure.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah. Because he's so detailed about that. Right. I mean you think about the moon phases and all the dates that he was working on with, you know, the, the two towers stuff, when you've got that interlacing. Yep. Yeah.

[James Tauber]

But whatever time it actually is. Talma stops under the shadow of the trees and he now begins to think things through.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah, Time to use the brain rather than just the temper. He's cooled down enough because of course earlier his heart was yet too hot with wrath to take thought. Now that he's thinking, he realizes he's afraid. And for good reason. I mean, he's not much of an explorer, certainly sticks close to home for the most part. Rarely been this far away. From home, and certainly not by himself. But this is another one of those timestamp things like. Wait a minute. You say that the text doesn't say he's not much of an explorer. The text says that he's seldom had he wandered far from the hills of his home and never alone. Okay, how does that fit with what we'll read next week? His townsfolk were timid and seldom went far afield, but he, if he had a chance, would walk far afield. We do get a confirmation he was afraid of the dark. But even he'd been known to spend the night away from town. Nobody else did that. And he'd also go out to the hill and watch the stars. So I'm not sure which one is it feels like that's the more accurate description of this guy. And he does feel like a little bit more again, to differentiate him from the rest of the town people.

[James Tauber]

Right, right. It does seem an important distinction between him and the rest of the town.

[Alan Sisto]

That's not to say that that quote's entirely wrong. For all his folk dreaded the forest. I mean, deep in the wood. There's nothing that contradicts that later.

[James Tauber]

Oh, for sure.

[Alan Sisto]

So he is afraid of the wood. That much we do know. And I guess we could probably reconcile the two statements again, looking at what we'll read next week, that, yeah, maybe he didn't wander far from the hills of his home very often and that he never did that alone.

[James Tauber]

Well, he went out. Yeah. Because it's possible that he would go out to the hill.

[Alan Sisto]

Right.

[James Tauber]

But never go beyond it.

[Alan Sisto]

Exactly. That's not that far.

[James Tauber]

Yeah, yeah.

[Alan Sisto]

Because we do see that he. He goes to that hill and watches the stars, and he's even spent the night because he was benighted, I think is the word. You know, caught out at night and spent the night away from town, whereas the people in his town don't even go out of their houses at night.

[James Tauber]

Right, right.

[Alan Sisto]

As we'll read again. That's. I'm getting ahead of myself because next week. But that. But that contradiction, just like the timestamp really kind of caught my attention. Like, how is he afraid if he's also brave?

[James Tauber]

Yeah. Tolkien's still in that. Just getting things out quickly. Yeah, yeah, exactly.

[Alan Sisto]

And they're. I mean, this is the very end of the typescript. So that's relevant, I think, in the sense that he's. I think so, too. Only still forming the shape of what this character looks like. Yeah, yeah.

[James Tauber]

And you brought up the forest. The fact that the people are afraid of it. And he is, too. Right?

[Alan Sisto]

Oh, yeah. He's been taught to be afraid of it. Right.

[James Tauber]

And the footnote here doesn't shed any light on why they're afraid of the woods, but it. It does tell us about a note here that said our hero had no weapon but a casting stone in a pouch.

[Alan Sisto]

That's not much at all. Maybe you should have kept Mogu's staff, showed it to everybody. You know, here's the staff.

[James Tauber]

Yeah.

[Alan Sisto]

But, yeah, it might have been good to have it with him.

[James Tauber]

Yeah. And like we mentioned during the reading, this moment in the story is precisely when it changes from a typescript to a manuscript. The manuscript is titled Continuation of Tell Elmar.

[Alan Sisto]

And how does that maybe change what we're about to read versus what we just read?

[James Tauber]

Yeah, I mean, there's presumably a period of time.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah. I mean, it's not like he stopped typing because he ran out of typewriter.

[Chris Peet]

Right.

[Alan Sisto]

Well, I better grab my pen while I'm on a streak. I mean, he picked it up later.

[James Tauber]

He came back to it afterwards, and, you know, presumably stuff had happened in the intervening period in terms of the development of maybe the appendices in Lord of the Rings. Yeah.

[Alan Sisto]

Because remember the time that he's writing this? Right. It's in that middle between Two Towers and Return of the King. Which is unbelievable that he would spend his mental bandwidth on this when he's trying to figure out how to get the appendices fit in so he can get those published.

[James Tauber]

Yeah. And now we get a description of Tel Omar's journey through the woods. Apparently he can see the shore, but it's going to take him a while to actually get there. Yeah, it's farther than it seems. Further than it seems actually is how Tolkien would say it.

[Alan Sisto]

Yes.

[James Tauber]

That's just a fun, fun fact about Tolkien. He never uses Father. It was one of the things that he complained about, the editors changing.

[Alan Sisto]

That's true. Like dwarfs to dwarves and. Yeah. Elven to Elfin. Yeah.

[James Tauber]

And apparently further to Father.

[Alan Sisto]

Nasturtiums. And nasturtiums.

[James Tauber]

Yeah.

[Alan Sisto]

There were a number of things. I wrote it. I didn't make a mistake. Don't fix it.

[James Tauber]

So it's further than it seems. And not exactly easygoing terrain.

[Alan Sisto]

No, that's the thing. I mean, this is an unpleasant woods. This isn't a stroll through a nice beachy forest. This is really dark and unwholesome, which is an interesting word, because when we go back to the Hobbit, Beorn is giving them advice about Mirkwood, he says, I doubt whether anything you find in Mirkwood will be wholesome to eat or drink. And later they wouldn't be able to hunt and shoot anything wholesome or unwholesome without straying from the path. I just feel like that's an interesting word choice here. It is wholesome. Yeah.

[James Tauber]

I don't know whether that's a sort of more archaic use of the term or something. I wonder.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah.

[James Tauber]

Because it isn't a word that we would necessarily grab right away when talking about whether it's appropriate to eat the food in the forest or not. Yeah.

[Alan Sisto]

I mean, how is a forest unwholesome?

[James Tauber]

Right.

[Alan Sisto]

I mean, the word means unhealthy or noxious or poisonous. So I can see how food might be described as unwholesome, like some sort of animal that if you eat its flesh, it's not going to nourish you, it's going to make you sick. But for a forest, okay, a forest can be dark. We get that. And Tolkien often uses dark in conjunction with forests to talk about and illustrate this idea that the people who are there can be easily lost. Right. Bewildered, I think, is the word that he often uses.

[James Tauber]

Yep.

[Alan Sisto]

But unwholesome is an interesting one because.

[James Tauber]

Well, it's interesting. There's a. There's a sense. There's a sense that the OED talks about that's somewhat rarer, that has to do with. With wholesome meaning, restoring physical health being curative. So I wonder if in that sense, being unwholesome would simply mean it makes you sick. Not necessarily in the sense that it's unhealthy to eat, but just the presence of being there.

[Alan Sisto]

It's a dark presence. Not dark in a light, opposite of light sense, but dark in, like, an oppressive sense. Maybe it itself is not healthy. Like, the forest is full of, like, sickly slimes and the trees are not even healthy. Like, this is a place that itself is sort of sick, Maybe.

[James Tauber]

Yeah.

[Alan Sisto]

I don't know.

[James Tauber]

I mean, there's mention of stagnant waters.

[Alan Sisto]

That's true. That would be unwholesome, for sure.

[James Tauber]

Yeah. And snakes. It's quiet. There's no birds here because they're snakes.

[Alan Sisto]

You'd think that the birds would show up with the snakes are there because it's eggs that they can, you know, they can eat. Yeah. Yeah.

[James Tauber]

But then we get this mention of dark spirits that hated men.

[Alan Sisto]

This is like the Numenorean thing, too. Like, they take all our people and they take them away and they sacrifice them. And eat them.

[James Tauber]

Yeah. So they're very superstitious people that, that everything that goes on, it's. It's maybe a little animistic or something that they associate things that go wrong with. Oh, it's the. It's the dark spirits in the forest.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah.

[James Tauber]

That. That do this. Because it's interesting again, that. That they hated men. So it sort of sets very clearly that these. They're not just dark spirits, but they. They hate us.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah, they're. And they have an animosity toward us.

[James Tauber]

Yeah.

[Alan Sisto]

And they're. They're a danger. They'll kill us. Which, of course, now puts Tal Elmar in the frame of mind where he's thinking about the three dangers of the Agar woods. The snakes, the swamp and the wood demon. Which have nothing to do, by the way, with the three dangers of the fire swamp, flame spurts, lightning, sand and Rouss, which of course, don't actually exist.

[James Tauber]

Of course. I'm not saying I'd like to build a summer home there, but the trees really are quite lovely.

[Alan Sisto]

Well, the snakes have summer homes here.

[James Tauber]

That's a fair. Maybe. Still, as bad as those things are, that's the snake swamp and the wood demon. Not the dangers of the fire swamp. Better to face them and go back with no news.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah.

[James Tauber]

That would mean death for him and probably his father.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah, I mean, either directly for his father or indirectly because he wouldn't be around to protect him.

[James Tauber]

Yeah, exactly.

[Alan Sisto]

In either case.

[James Tauber]

Okay. Would you like to read on, Alan?

[Alan Sisto]

I think I would. This will actually be our last reading of the day. So helped a little perhaps, by his pride, he went on. And the thought came to him under the shadow as he sought for a way through swamp and thicket. What do I know? Or any of my people, Even my father, of these Gohileg of the winged boats. It might well be that I, who am a stranger in my own people should find them more pleasing than Mogru and all others like him. With this thought growing in him so that at length he felt rather as a man who goes to greet friends and kinsmen than as one who creeps out to spy on dangerous foes, he passed unhurt through the Shadow Wood and came to the shore hills and began to climb. One hill he chose because bushes clambered up its slope and it was crowned with a dense knot of low trees. To this cover he came and creeping to the further brink. He looked down. It had taken him long, for his way had been slow. And now the sun had fallen from noon and was going down, away on his right towards the sea. He was hungry, but this he hardly heeded, for he was used to hunger and could endure toil day long without eating when he must. The hill was low, but ran down steeply to the water. Before its feet were green lands ending in gravels, beyond which the waters of the estuary gleamed in the westering sun. Out in the midst of the stream, beyond the shoals, three great ships, though Tal Elmar had no such word in his language to name them with, were lying motionless. They were anchored and the sails down. Of the fourth, the black Ship, there was no sign. But on the green near the shingles, there were tents and small boats drawn up near. Tall men were standing or walking among them. Away on the big boats, Tal Elmar could see others on watch. Every now and then he caught a flash as some weapon or arms moved in the sun. He trembled, for the tales of the blades of the cruel men were familiar to his childhood. Oh, more on the myths and things like that. That we don't know. Yeah, exactly.

[James Tauber]

What do you make of this opening line? I have a theory, but this opening line, he helped a little, perhaps by his pride.

[Alan Sisto]

I feel like he wants to come back and show Mogru, like, yeah, you picked the right guy. I did the job. Here's your news.

[James Tauber]

Yeah, I like that. One of the things that occurred to me was we talked. I think it was in the first episode on this. There was this distinction drawn between two types of pride. Yes. Remember, there was the pride of sort of knowing who he is. The good, positive pride.

[Alan Sisto]

I am an alien amongst these people. I'm not. Yeah.

[James Tauber]

And that does tie in with. Because it then of course leads on to the what do I know? Or any of my people. Maybe. Maybe I might like them more than I like.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah.

[James Tauber]

The people in my.

[Alan Sisto]

I think this is that identity. It's like he's proud of who he is. And, you know, you chose me for a reason. It's because I'm not like you. I'm not short legged and thick. I'm long and lean and, you know, I'm quick. I am all of the things that you're not.

[James Tauber]

And also I wonder if it's that he has a different response to the other because he's grown up as the other.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah, he really has. That's true.

[James Tauber]

So he's not. He doesn't have that fear of a foreigner because he feels like a foreigner himself.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah.

[James Tauber]

So it's like, how much worth. Can't be any worse. These guys can't be any worse than Mo Grew.

[Alan Sisto]

That's a fair point.

[James Tauber]

Yeah. So as he's traversing the woods and the swamps, another thought crosses his mind. We again get one of these. We get told that he.

[Alan Sisto]

I love this inner dialogue stuff that we get with him. It's great.

[James Tauber]

And the thought is, what do we really know about these men? As I said, I'm a stranger among my own people. Maybe I'll find these Gohulig to be better than the people I live with.

[Alan Sisto]

Probably.

[James Tauber]

You could almost imagine him saying to these people that he's gonna the Go Hill Egg. Well, I'm just to be clear, I'm not actually one of them. Don't.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah, they're all shorter and. And the head guy is really fat. You can't miss him. But my dad's a good guy. Leave him alone.

[James Tauber]

Right there is that issue that. Of course, he's. He's.

[Alan Sisto]

That's the thing. Yeah. I mean, his dad is of them, but, I mean, at least he looks like he's of them.

[James Tauber]

Right?

[Alan Sisto]

He knows. Tal Elmar. Knows he's different than these others. Yep. Hazad himself has to know that, too, being the son of Elmar.

[James Tauber]

Yeah.

[Alan Sisto]

Like he has felt that otherness as well. Right. He didn't find any of the women of his people attractive. There's a lot of that. There's a lot of these. These two being other. Yeah. I might like these Gohilig better than everybody else. He doesn't say, except for my dad. But that's the unspoken part, because, of course, he very much loves his father. He's not. He's distancing himself from Mogru's people, not so much from his father.

[James Tauber]

Yeah. Yeah, definitely.

[Alan Sisto]

Well, this thought sticks with him to the point now that he almost feels like he's heading towards a family reunion rather than, you know, going out to be a spy. Like, they're all down there making a picnic and he's. It's time for him to show up with the potato salad or something. He makes it through the woods. He arrives at the downs near the sea. Those are the shore hills. And heads up for a vantage point. And I like this. He's. He is a sharp guy. I mean, he wisely chooses this spot. It's a spot that keeps him in cover on the way up or on the way down after he's gathered the intelligence. And it provides more cover at the top from which to do his reconnaissance.

[James Tauber]

Yeah. So he gets to the top, then he makes his way through the trees, looking down from the edge. And we get another vague timestamp here, perhaps suggesting mid afternoon.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah, I think this is where we have to go back to the earlier timestamp, where they get back to Mogru and it's noon, rather than that he left an hour before noon.

[James Tauber]

Oh, yeah.

[Alan Sisto]

Because I can't imagine it took him three hours to get through the. The swamp. Well, there was, but maybe.

[James Tauber]

Yeah, there was the lightning sand.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. I feel like if the earlier timestamp, though, I don't know. So now I'm. Now I'm all. It's really hot. Because if it was noon when he and Hazad first made it back to Agar, like I sort of am leaning towards that makes this a problem. Because could this have even been done before nightfall? If they got back there at noon, they drag his butt back up the hill, it's one o', clock, he goes out and he gets the people to. He's here at 3. Well, yeah, I mean, I guess if it's spring.

[James Tauber]

Yeah, yeah.

[Alan Sisto]

It could still be done before nightfall. That's possible. I don't know. It's just interesting. What time is it really? I guess.

[James Tauber]

Yeah. Regardless of what time it is. He's hungry.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah, yeah, I get it, I get it.

[James Tauber]

Yeah. I was going to say I'm fairly peckish myself, but. But he's fine. He seems to be able to deal with it.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah, not me.

[James Tauber]

Better than greater than I can. Yeah, yeah.

[Alan Sisto]

Let's hurry it up. I got to eat.

[James Tauber]

He's used to it, apparently.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah.

[James Tauber]

And. And he said to be able to work all day without food.

[Alan Sisto]

Not me, sir. Not me. Even if I'm just writing, that's not going to happen. But I wonder if that's a reflection on maybe the poverty of the town. Or also on the poverty of his family, specifically.

[James Tauber]

Yeah.

[Alan Sisto]

Going back to Elmar's curse on. On Buldar.

[James Tauber]

Yeah.

[Alan Sisto]

More than that, of course, we have another geographical clue. Actually a few geographical clues that can help us. First, we get the sun going down on his right towards the sea. Therefore, west is to his right.

[James Tauber]

So he's looking south.

[Alan Sisto]

So he's looking south down on the estuary. Still, though, because coasts can curve, there's nothing that tells us for sure which one this is.

[James Tauber]

Yeah, we do get a vivid description of the small hill he's on. It's a steep slope towards the water, the gravel bed of the estuary and even the shoals.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah.

[James Tauber]

And finally he sees the ships. And I think this is a really important point. Tal Elmar literally Does not have a word for them.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah. There's no concept for boats with that sort of a dark deep, you know, that are that big of a hole and they have sails on them. I mean, he's used to small fishing boats that are functioned, operated by paddles.

[James Tauber]

Right.

[Alan Sisto]

You know. Right. Dinghies basically. And here he is trying to figure out how to describe, you know, what is in essence a galleon. It's just wild. Of course, he doesn't have a word for it. Yeah, I mean he's called them different things. We talked about this before. You mentioned the idea of either sort of word pictures, compound words or analogies. And he's called them strange birds and birds of ill omen. And he's also called them winged boats. His father's also used the word boats, but described them as vastly different. Like houses, he called them, according to the text, at least the ships of the Gohilig when speaking with Mogru. So the only question is again, translation. So maybe the language doesn't really have a word for ships, but something more like big boats, do you think? Because if his father had used ships of the Gohileg, then that implies that there is a word that means ships.

[James Tauber]

Yeah. I don't know how much we can read into this because I mean our distinction between. Modern distinction between the word ship and boat. I don't think.

[Alan Sisto]

Oh heck, I'm still.

[James Tauber]

Historically, historically was particularly true. I mean, our word ship is related to the word skip. So they don't have to be big.

[Alan Sisto]

No, no, skips are not big in.

[James Tauber]

Terms of, you know, the old English equivalent. I think regardless of whether they were using the word boat or ship, they were still only familiar with these, you know, canoes.

[Alan Sisto]

They're still talking about snooze and.

[James Tauber]

Yeah. And things. And certainly not sail powered at all. Because it's interesting, he doesn't have a word for sale.

[Alan Sisto]

No.

[James Tauber]

Other than talk about wing clothes or their wings. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And the size of it. So they're the two things. Right. The use of sails and the sheer size of them. They're like bigger than houses.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah, bigger than houses because what else is bigger? I mean what, what word can, can hazard use to describe these things?

[James Tauber]

Right.

[Alan Sisto]

Bigger than an office building. Yeah.

[James Tauber]

I mean, what is bigger than it. Yeah.

[Alan Sisto]

What is bigger? The biggest things they have are going to be.

[James Tauber]

It's one bigger. It's one bigger.

[Alan Sisto]

It'S one bigger.

[James Tauber]

This ship goes to 11.

[Alan Sisto]

To 11. That's exciting.

[James Tauber]

Never forget. What's bigger than a house? None. It's none more bigger.

[Alan Sisto]

It's none more bigger. Genius. I love it.

[James Tauber]

So the ships are anchored in the mouth of the river, whether it's the Isen or the Morthon.

[Alan Sisto]

That's right.

[James Tauber]

Their sails are down. And there's no sign of the ship with the black sails.

[Alan Sisto]

Where is it? Where's the ship with the black sails? Where's it gone? Yeah.

[James Tauber]

Instead, Tal Elmar spots tents and small boats that would have been used to ferry men and supplies from the ships.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah, ships, boats.

[James Tauber]

Right.

[Chris Peet]

Yep.

[Alan Sisto]

Now, the shingles mentioned here have nothing to do with roofing or a really itchy skin disease. A shingle in this context is just a mass of small, rounded pebbles, especially on a seashore.

[James Tauber]

And now, for the first time, Talma spots the men. And the first word used to describe them is tall. Yeah.

[Alan Sisto]

Very Numenorean.

[James Tauber]

Yeah, exactly. You could spot other men on the big boats. The quotes in the manuscript suggesting it's the only compound word that Tell Elmar has to describe the ships.

[Alan Sisto]

Yep. And he could even see the glint of their weapons. And this, of course, caused him to be afraid. And this is what we were commenting on at the end of the reading. Like, the blade of the cruel men were familiar to his childhood. Like, they've got these legends, these, like you said, they're a superstitious people. But if the blades of the cruel men were familiar to his childhood, why did Hazad have to provide such an in depth history lesson in the.

[James Tauber]

Yeah, I'm confused by Tal Elmar's childhood because I thought it was one of those things that it was the previous generation.

[Alan Sisto]

Exactly. I would have expected about. And even Mogru. Right. But if. If Tal Omar knew about it, why did Azad have to go into such depth about the. The men from the sea, the Gohilig, you know, with three enemies we have, son.

[James Tauber]

Unless these cruel men are completely unrelated.

[Alan Sisto]

That's true. Because we later on talk about the cruels of the north and we're clearly talking about the elves.

[James Tauber]

Right? That's true. Yeah.

[Alan Sisto]

So this is it. Where. This is the cruel men. And it's capitalized. Cruel and men are capitalized. Capitalized. So we're not talking about the elves. But again, like, where are these.

[James Tauber]

There's no connection made with the. The stories of the ships that come and grab people.

[Alan Sisto]

No, that's true. There's no connection necessarily between these quote unquote cruel men and the ships that carry people away. Yeah, yeah. The dark. The ship of the dark. Or the dark.

[James Tauber]

So his only familiarity with these Weapons is these crewmen legends.

[Alan Sisto]

And those could be anybody.

[James Tauber]

Right.

[Alan Sisto]

Heck, they could be his own people. They could be the fellow yeast. I mean, really?

[James Tauber]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Alan Sisto]

But yeah, I mean, I remember him saying to his dad, I am thy youngest son. And whereas thou has taught much lore to the dull ears of my brethren, I love that he's always got to get the digging on his brothers. To me, that was given less of thy store. I know nothing of what is in thy mind.

[James Tauber]

Yeah.

[Alan Sisto]

So, yeah, that suggests to me that the blades of the cruel men are a different story, whether there's a link or not. There's not a link in Tal Omar's mind.

[James Tauber]

Right.

[Alan Sisto]

Unless he's building that link now, going, oh, I wonder if these are those same cruel men that I heard about when I was growing up.

[James Tauber]

Yeah. Interesting, because that's the only connection he has the weapons. It's the only thing he can. The only time he's heard of them before.

[Alan Sisto]

But on the green near the shingles, there was a pub and small mailboxes drawn up near one big man was standing or walking among them. James, what does Barlaman have in his bag for. For us today?

[James Tauber]

Okay. Derek from New Mexico asks what we're looking forward to in 2026. I presume in the context of talking. And let's. Let's restrict our answer to that.

[Alan Sisto]

I've got some night. I'm looking for spring break with my kids. I mean, there's all sorts of things. Yeah. Oh, goodness. What? Well, looking forward to maybe the wrong phrase, but I am hopeful for season three of Rings of Power, so that would be one. I know that the hunt for Gollum isn't going to be till 27.

[James Tauber]

Right. That's just gonna start filming, I think, in a couple of months.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah.

[James Tauber]

So I've got a book release that I'm looking forward to.

[Alan Sisto]

Oh, yeah, let's talk about that. What book releases are coming?

[James Tauber]

So last year, after doing the boxed set that included the history of Middle Earth, we got the Myths and Legends box set came out last. Middle of last year with Ser Gawain, Sigurd and Gudrun, Fall of Arthur and Beowulf. But May this year we're getting a second box of myths and legend that's going to have Finnen, Hengist, Kullervo.

[Alan Sisto]

No.

[James Tauber]

Battle of Malden, Leyeva, Tru and a Trun. Yes. And the Old English Exodus. Now, the Old English Exodus, for those of you who aren't aware, it's been out of print for 50 years.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah.

[James Tauber]

The original edition it's one of the rarest Tolkien books in the world. Yeah.

[Alan Sisto]

Now, obviously the original songs are philologists, but it's close.

[James Tauber]

It's up there. It's up there in terms of how rarely it comes up for sale and so on. True. And so, quite apart from the value of having a first edition, just the text itself has not been something that many people have access to. But in May this year, the text is going to be available to purchase again as. As part of the Myths and Legends box number two.

[Alan Sisto]

That is exciting. And I tell you what, I am looking forward to a couple of collectors or deluxe editions, I should say. I'm sorry, folks, this is an audio podcast, so you can't see the shelf behind me, but the shelf behind me with the. The colored boxes. Right.

[James Tauber]

The deluxe edition.

[Alan Sisto]

The deluxe editions, they are coming out with Carpenter's biography and the letters.

[James Tauber]

Yes.

[Alan Sisto]

Revised and expanded, thankfully.

[James Tauber]

Yes.

[Alan Sisto]

In that deluxe. In that binding with. With the slip case. Those are going to be nice to add to the shelf, but, boy, that Myths and Legends box set number two sounds absolutely fantastic. Yeah. The Old English Exodus. I also love that we're getting another, you know, a hardcover version of the Battle of Maldon in that binding, you know.

[James Tauber]

Yep.

[Alan Sisto]

That, of course, came out just a couple of years ago, and I think one.

[James Tauber]

Yeah.

[Alan Sisto]

Best book. The Tolkien Society Award for. For book of the year that year.

[James Tauber]

Yeah.

[Alan Sisto]

That's fantastic. I'm looking forward to those. Oh, man, now I got too many things to. Too many books, not enough time.

[James Tauber]

Yeah.

[Alan Sisto]

Also too many books and not enough shelves. Not enough shelves. Starting to run out.

[James Tauber]

Yeah.

[Alan Sisto]

I mean, I've still got weta sculpts in boxes that I don't have room for. Now I gotta find more room for books. Of course, the books take precedence.

[James Tauber]

I'm in the middle of packing up to move, so, you know.

[Alan Sisto]

Well, you're gonna build bigger shelves when you get there.

[James Tauber]

Yeah.

[Alan Sisto]

And now I'm thinking we're gonna need bigger shelves. The Jaws reference. Oh, man. Folks, thank you for joining us for another episode of the Prancing Pony Po Podcast. Please join us again next week when Tal Elmar is mistaken for an elf.

[James Tauber]

Which is, I think, a hilarious moment.

[Alan Sisto]

It's also something neither of us will ever have happen to us.

[James Tauber]

Well, speak for yourself. I think I'm a rather good Kirdan Alan. And I want to thank the members of Team PPP editor Jordan Renels Barleyman, Becca Davis, social media manager Casey Hilsey, event and Patreon community coordinator Katie McKenna, graphic artist Megan Collins, video editor Yonatan Lazens and website guru Phil Dean.

[Alan Sisto]

Now, you know we've bounced back and forth with references to the Princess Bride and, you know, Indiana Jones, Indiana Jones and Spinal Tap Jaws. So now I'm gonna go with Star wars, which is. Aren't you a little short for an elf?

[James Tauber]

Okay, you got me there.

[Alan Sisto]

Please take a minute to check out the franchise, folks. That's where you'll find show notes, outtakes, Prancing Pony ponderings, and our fully revamped PPP merch store where you can get all sorts of cool PPP merch featuring all of the amazing chapter art that Megan's been doing for us for more than three seasons.

[James Tauber]

We're all about the books here at the Prancing Pony Podcast, so be sure to visit our library page. We try to make sure that any book we've mentioned on the show is linked there for you to purchase. We do get a small amount of co compensation when you make your purchase, so thank you for that indeed.

[Alan Sisto]

And we also want to thank our patrons at the KIR Dance contribution tier. I'll start with Demay in Alaska, Chad in Texas, Lance in New Jersey, Joseph in Michigan, Kathy from North Carolina, Brian in the uk, Jerry from Washington, Irwin from the Netherlands, Ben in Minnesota, Anthony in Texas, Zaksu in Illinois, Joshua in Massachusetts, Lucy in Texas, Eric, Monica in Texas, Vivian in California, and James in Massachusetts.

[James Tauber]

There's also Ann in Kentucky, Sean in New Jersey, Mason in California, Maureen from Massachusetts, Olivia in London, Robert in Arizona, Nick in Wisconsin, Lewis in South Carolina, Thomas in Germany, Craig in California, Kevin in Massachusetts, Joe in Maryland, Dee, Scott in California, Jeffrey in Michigan, and Paul in Colorado. Thank you all so very much for your support indeed.

[Alan Sisto]

Thank you.

[James Tauber]

Now, make sure you don't miss any episodes of the Prancing Pony Podcast. Subscribe now through Spotify, Apple Podcasts, Amazon Music, or your favorite podcast app.

[Alan Sisto]

And one last thing. As always, don't forget to send your thoughts, comments and, well, most of all, the blades of the cruel men. I could always use a nice knife to bartlethprancingponypodcast.com that's not a knife. This is a knife. And now we get a Crocodile Dundee reference too. That might be a record for the quantity of references alone.

[James Tauber]

Barleyman does have a lot of mail to sort through, so we'll try to get to you just as soon as we're able.

[Alan Sisto]

As always, this has been far too short a time to make too many movie references to spend among such excellent and admirable listeners.

[James Tauber]

But until next time, May you rekindle hearts in a world that grows chill. It.