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- [00:01]
Alan Sisto
Hey, Sal.
- [00:02]
James Tauber
Hank. What's going on? We haven't worked a case in years.
- [00:05]
Alan Sisto
I just bought my car at Carvana and it was so easy. Too easy.
- [00:09]
James Tauber
Think something's up?
- [00:10]
Alan Sisto
You tell me. They got thousands of options, found a great car at a great price, and it got delivered the next day.
- [00:18]
James Tauber
It sounds like Carvana just makes it easy to buy your car, Hank.
- [00:22]
Alan Sisto
Yeah, you're right. Case closed. Buy your car today on Carvana.
- [00:29]
Sara Brown
Delivery fees may apply.
- [00:30]
Alan Sisto
Zootopia 2 has come home to Disney. Let's go get ready for a new case.
- [00:35]
Sara Brown
We're the greatest partners of all time. New friends, Gary the Snake.
- [00:38]
Alan Sisto
And your last name, the Snake Dream Team. New habitats.
- [00:42]
Matt from Nerd of the Rings
Zootopia has a secret reptile population.
- [00:44]
Alan Sisto
You can watch the record breaking phenomenon at home. Zootopia 2, now available on Disney Plus. Rated PG. And right now you can get Disney plus and Hulu for just $4.99 a month for three months with a special limited time offer. Ends March 24. After three months, Plan Auto renews at $12.99 a month. Terms apply. Good evening, little masters, and welcome to episode 405 of the Prancing Pony Podcast, where today we're doing something a little special.
- [01:19]
James Tauber
That's right, folks. Pull up a bench in the common room and join us. I'm James Tauber, the Sage of the South I and I'm here with a man of the West, Alan Sisto.
- [01:26]
Alan Sisto
Thank you, James. You know, folks, it is hard to believe, but today we're celebrating our 11th annual Tolkien reading Day special. Our first one came around in 2016 when the PPP was barely a month old, so it's as old a tradition as Barlowman's bag around here.
- [01:42]
James Tauber
Wow. Folks, no matter how you arrived, you're all welcome. Here in the common room at the Prancing Pony Podcast, we're reading and talking our way through Middle Earth with plenty of speculation and bad jokes along the way.
- [01:52]
Alan Sisto
That's right. We do love our deep dives into the lore, though, discussing our favorite themes and a whole lot more.
- [01:57]
James Tauber
But we try to keep it light and fun, like a couple of friends chatting at the pub. And we're glad you've joined us.
- [02:03]
Alan Sisto
And while you'll be glad you joined as well, this episode is going to be a little bit different. You see, every year on March 25, the Tolkien Society organizes Tolkien Reading Day to encourage fans to celebrate and promote the life and works of J.R.R. tolkien by reading favorite passages.
- [02:19]
James Tauber
Why the 25th of March? Because that's the date of the downfall of Sauron and the destruction of Barad Dur. Now, because this episode is coming out three days before on March 22, you've still got a few days to figure out what your reading is going to be.
- [02:32]
Alan Sisto
That's right. Frodo and Sam have only just now left the road and turned south for Mount Doom. The host of the west is still marching towards the Black Gate. Now for Tolkien Reading Day. Every year, the Tolkien Society chooses a different theme to focus on, and this year's theme is a great one, Unlikely Heroes. Speaking of unlikely heroes, I've asked each of my co hosts from the last couple of seasons to join me. They'll each do a reading or two, we'll have a brief discussion, and then we'll bring in the next one.
- [02:57]
James Tauber
So you'll get to hear readings from Don Marshall, the Nerd of the Rings, Sarah Brown, Sean Marchese, and even me and Alan, I suppose.
- [03:06]
Alan Sisto
And folks, in keeping with our Tolkien Reading Day tradition at the Prancing Pony podcast, we're going to try to spend our time today, well, reading Tolkien and not talking quite as much. And we want to get that reading started as soon as possible because we've got a lot of guests and a lot of passages today. So we're going to get right to it. And we're going to start today with somebody who's spent far too much time away from the PPP lately. He began last season with me covering much of Appendix A, and he'll be coming back again in May to work with me on the disaster of the Gladden Fields and the chapter on the Druedine. Folks, please, please welcome back to the PPP published author Don Marshall, also known as the obscure Lord of the Rings. Facts, Guy, how you doing, man?
- [03:46]
Don Marshall
I'm doing great. And that is a heck of an introduction and I think the first time I've been introduced as published author.
- [03:52]
Alan Sisto
Isn't that an awesome feeling?
- [03:54]
Don Marshall
It feels amazing. I recommend everybody do it.
- [03:58]
Alan Sisto
I do as well. It's definitely fun. Don't do it because you want to get rich, because that's. Writing books is not going to help you with that.
- [04:06]
Don Marshall
Not at all. In fact, the opposite, maybe. Unless you somehow want to go viral or.
- [04:12]
Alan Sisto
Well, yeah, if you get lucky.
- [04:13]
Don Marshall
And yeah, yeah, get really, really lucky on the Internet one day. Which, you know, as anyone will tell you, is super easy in 2026.
- [04:21]
Alan Sisto
Oh, yeah, that's right. There's no competition there at all. That Internet thing is wide open. All right, well, Don, other than yourself, what unlikely hero have you decided to highlight for us?
- [04:31]
Don Marshall
Today, I have chosen the bird woman herself. This is Elwing, Elrond's mother. Always been very fascinated by her as a character. Love what she does and just kind of. I don't think she gets enough credit.
- [04:48]
Alan Sisto
No, I was gonna say she's sort of in the shadow of Earendil and of Elrond. And Elrond.
- [04:53]
Don Marshall
Without her, the whole thing falls apart.
- [04:56]
Alan Sisto
That's true. Well, tell us about her, then.
- [04:59]
Don Marshall
We are reading from the Silmarillion. This is going to be chapter 24. During the war of Wrath, right around the time there's a big old bird and Earndil sails to the Undying Lands.
- [05:12]
Alan Sisto
Fair enough. All right.
- [05:14]
Don Marshall
Now, when first the tidings came to Maedhros that Elwing yet lived and dwelt in possession of a Silmaril by the mouths of Sirion he, repenting of the deeds in Doriath, withheld his hand. But in time, the knowledge of their oath unfulfilled returned to torment him and his brother. And gathering from their wandering hunting paths they sent messages to the havens of friendship and yet of stern demand. Then Elwing and the people of Sirion would not yield the jewel which Beren had won and Luthien had worn and for which Dior the Fair was slain. And least of all, while Earendil, their lord, was on the sea. For it seemed to them that in the Silmaril lay the healing and the blessing that had come to their houses and their ships. And so there came to pass the last and cruelest of the slayings of Elf by Elf. And that was the third of the great wrongs achieved by the accursed oath. For the sons of Feanor that yet lived came down suddenly upon the exiles of Gondolin and the remnant of Doriath and destroyed them. In that battle, some of their people stood aside and some few, rebelled and were slain upon the other part aiding Elwing against their own lords. For such was the sorrow and confusion in the hearts of the Eldar in those days, Maedhros and Maglor won the day though they alone remained thereafter of the sons of Feanor. For both Amrod and Amras were slain too late. The ships of Cirdan and Gil Galad the High King came hasting to the aid of the elves of Sirion. And Elwing was gone and her sons then such few of that people that did not perish in the assault joined themselves to Gil Galad and went with him to Balar. And they told that Elros and Elrond were taken captive. But Elwing, with the Silmaril upon her breast had cast herself into the sea. Thus Maedhros and Maeglor gained not the jewel but it was not lost. For Ulmo bore up Elwing out of the waves and he gave her the likeness of a great white bird and upon her breast there shone like a star the Silmaril, as she flew over the water to seek Earendil, her beloved on a time of night Earendil, at the helm of his ship saw her come towards him as a white cloud exceeding swift beneath the moon as a star over the sea moving in strange course a pale flame on wings of storm. And it is sung that she fell from the air upon the timbers of Vingilot and in a swoon nigh unto death for the urgency of her speed. And Earendil took her to his bosom. But in the morning, with marvelling eyes he beheld his wife in her own form beside him with her hair upon his face and she slept. Great was the sorrow of Earendil and Elwing for the ruin of the Haven of Sirion and the captivity of their sons and they feared that they would be slain. But it was not so, for Maglor took pity upon Elros and Elrond and and he cherished them. And love grew after between them as little might be thought. But Maglor's heart was sick and weary with the burden of the dreadful oath. Yet Earendil saw no hope left in the lands of Middle Earth and he turned again in despair and came not home but sought back once more to Valinor with Elwing at his side. He stood now most often at the prow of Vingilot and the Silmaril was bound upon his brow and ever its light grew greater as they drew into the west. And the wise have said that it was by reason of the power of that holy jewel that they came in time to waters that no vessel save those of the Teleri had known. And they came to the Enchanted Isles and escaped their enchantment. And they came to the shadowy seas and passed their shadows and they looked upon Tol Eressea, the lonely isle, but tarried not and at the last they cast anchor in the bay of Eldamar. And the Teleri saw the coming of that ship out of the east and they were amazed, gazing from afar upon the light of the Silmaril. And it was very great. Then Earendil, first of living men, landed on the immortal shores and he spoke there to Elwing and to those that were with him. And there were three mariners who had sailed all the seas beside him. Falathar, Erelont and Arondir were their names. And Earendil said to them, here none but myself shall set foot lest you fall under the wrath of the Valar. But that peril I will take on myself alone for the sake of the two kindreds. But Elwing answered, then would our paths be sundered forever but all thy perils I will take on myself also. And she leaped into the white foam and ran towards him. But Earendil was sorrowful, for he feared the anger of the lords of the west upon any of Middle Earth that should dare to pass the Leaguer of Aman. And there they bade farewell to the companions of their voyage and were taken from them forever. Then Earendil said to Elwing, await me here, for one only may bring the message that it is my fate to bear. And he went up alone into the land and came into the Calikyria. And it seemed to him empty and silent. For even as Morgoth and Ungolian came in ages past, so now Earendil had come in a time of festival and well nigh all the Elven folk were gone to Valimar or were gathered in the halls of Manwe upon Taniquetil and few were left to keep watch upon the walls of Tirion. But some there were who saw him from afar and the great light that he bore and they went in haste to Valamar. But Earendil climbed the green hill of Tuna and found it bare. And he entered into the streets of Tirion and they were empty. And his heart was heavy, for he feared that some evil had come even to the blessed realm. He walked in the deserted ways of Tirion and the dust upon his raiment and his shoes was the dust of diamonds. And he shone and glistened as he climbed the long white stairs. And he called aloud in many tongues, both of elves and men, but there were none to answer him. Therefore he turned back at last towards the sea. But even as he took the shoreward road, one stood upon the hill and called to him in a great voice, crying, hail, Earendil of mariners most renowned the looked for that cometh at unawares, the longed for that cometh beyond hope. Hail Earendil, bearer of light before the sun and the moon, splendour of the children of earth, star in the darkness, jewel in the sunset, radiant in the morning. That voice was the voice of Eonwe, herald of Manwe. And he came from Valimar and summoned Earendil to come before the powers of Arda And Earendil went into Valinor and to the halls of Valimar and never again set foot upon the lands of Men. Then the Valar took counsel together and they summoned Ulmo from the deeps of the sea. And Earendil stood before their faces and delivered the errand of the two kindreds. Pardon, he asked, for the Noldor, and pity for their great sorrows and mercy upon men and Elves, and succour in their need. And his prayer was granted. It is told among the elves that after Earendil had departed seeking Elwing his wife, Mandos spoke concerning his fate. And he said, shall mortal men step living upon the Undying Lands and yet live? But Ulmo said, for this he was born into the world. And say unto me whether he is Earendil, Tuor's son of the line of Hador, or the son of Idril, Turgon's daughter of the Elven house of Finwe? And Mandos answered equally, the Noldor who went wilfully into exile may not return hither. But when all was spoken, Manwe gave judgment. And he in this manner the power of doom is given to me. The peril that he ventured for love of the two kindreds shall not fall upon Earendil, nor shall it fall upon Elwing, his wife, who entered into peril for love of him. But they shall not walk again ever among the Elves or Men in the outer lands. And this is my decree concerning them. To Earendil and to Elwing and to their sons shall be given leave each to choose freely to which kindred their fates shall be joined and under which kindreds they shall be judged. Now when Earendil was long time gone, Elwing became lonely and afraid and wandering by the margin of the sea she came near to Alqualonde, where lay the Teleran fleets. There the Teleri befriended her, and they listened to her tales of Doriath and Gondolin and the griefs of Beleriand. And they were filled with pity and wonder. And there Earendil returning, found her at the haven of the swans. But ere long they were summoned to Valimar and there the decree of the elder king was declared to them. Then Earendil said to Elwing, choose thou, for now I am weary of the world. And Elwing chose to be judged among the firstborn children of Iluvatar because of Luthien. And for her sake Earendil chose alike, though his heart was rather with the kindred of men and the people of his father. Then at the bidding of the Valar, Earnwe went to the shore of Aman where the companions of Earendil still remained awaiting tidings and he took the boat and the three mariners were set therein, and the Valar drove them away into the east with a great wind but they took Fingilot and hallowed it and bore it away through Valinor to the uttermost rim of the world, and there it passed through the door of night and was lifted up even into the oceans of heaven. Now fair and marvellous was that vessel made, and it was filled with a wavering flame, pure and bright. And Earendil the mariner sat at the helm, glistening with dust of elven gems, and the silmaril was bound upon his brow. Far he journeyed in that ship, even into the starless void, but most often was he seen in the morning or at evening, glimmering in sunrise or sunset, as he came back to Valinor from voyages beyond the confines of the world. In those journeys Elwing did not go, for she might not endure the cold and the pathless voids, and she loved rather the earth and the sweet winds that blow on sea and hill. Therefore there was built for her a white tower northward upon the border of the sundering seas and thither at times all the sea birds of the earth repaired, and it is said that Elwing learned the tongues of birds who herself had once worn their shape, and they taught her the craft of flight, and her wings were of white and silver grey. And at times when Earendil returning drew near again to Arda, she would fly to meet him even as she had flown long ago when she was rescued from the sea. Then the farsighted among the elves that dwelt in the lonely isle would see her like a white bird, shining rose, stained in the sunset as she soared in joy to greet the coming of Vingilot to Haven't we continue on a little bit later in this chapter with one of my favorite parts? But the host of the Valar prepared for battle, and beneath their white banner marched the Vanyar, the people of Ingwe, and those also of the Noldor, who never departed from Valinor, whose leader was Finarfin, the son of Finwe. Few of the Teleri were willing to go forth to war, for they remembered the slaying at the Swan Haven and the rape of their ships. But they hearkened to Elwing, who was the daughter of Dior, Eluciel, and come of their own kindred. And they sent mariners enough to sail the ships that bore the host of Valinor east over the sea.
- [19:15]
Alan Sisto
Wow. What a great reading. What a. I never really had thought of her before as a. As a hero, but you look at what she did.
- [19:24]
Don Marshall
Yeah. Without her, the Silmaril falls into the hands of Maglor and Maedhros, and, you know, who knows what happens then?
- [19:32]
Alan Sisto
This is a really powerful, powerful passage. What was it that about her that came to your mind when I said, hey, you want to join me and do a reading on an unlikely hero?
- [19:44]
Don Marshall
Yeah. Well, obviously, I love giving the women of the Silmarillion way more credit than they usually get. I think characters like Luthien and Haleth and Elwing are sort of occasionally more overlooked than some of their male counterparts. And I just feel like Elwing really embodies truly what Tolkien talks about when he's talking about the Fae and the fairy, and there's this sort of magic within her, this transformation into a bird. I mean, have shape shifters in Middle Earth, for sure. Elwing is one of them. And I, I think, you know, the very nature of her nature, if you will, makes her one of the more powerful characters. And I really like it that she uses her power, you know, alongside her husband and, and makes that difference and basically saves the world. I mean, you've got, you know, last portion that we said. The Teleri sail the ships. They get the. The Elves over from the Undying Land.
- [20:48]
Alan Sisto
It's a long walk if they don't have ships.
- [20:50]
Don Marshall
Exactly, exactly. And it's Elwing that does that. And I think there's. There's something to be said about characters who, who are able to convince large groups of people to do something they maybe don't want to do for the betterment of everyone, to save the world,
- [21:08]
Alan Sisto
you know, and I mean, even earlier with, you know, while Earendil was gone and they were dealing with, you know, what are we going to do with these people? She befriends the Teleri, and that's when they hear about all of her stories. And they were filled with pity and wonder. And that's a big part of why building that relationship with them enables her to then persuade them to pilot the ships.
- [21:34]
Don Marshall
Because I think without those stories, we don't necessarily get as many of the Elves from the Undying Lands coming to Middle Earth. And that battle is such a tumultuous one. Tolkien doesn't go into details.
- [21:48]
Alan Sisto
Continent destroying one. Yeah, yeah.
- [21:50]
Don Marshall
You need as many people as you can get in the wars against Morgoth.
- [21:55]
Alan Sisto
Yeah. The war against Morgoth is all consuming. You know, I was just kind of putting this together a little bit. She gets the Teleri to pilot their vessels, to bring the Vanyar and the rest of the folks from Aman over to finish the battle against Morgoth. Remember that the whole reason why there's a problem is because their ships were taken to begin with. So they'd have every right to be like, we're going to do anything except let you use our ships.
- [22:26]
Don Marshall
Yep.
- [22:27]
Alan Sisto
And not only do they say, you know, we'll actually pilot them, they become the Navy for delivering the Marine Corps of the Vanyar.
- [22:36]
James Tauber
Yes.
- [22:37]
Don Marshall
She does what Feanor never could.
- [22:40]
Alan Sisto
Yeah. She persuades the Teleri. Excellent choice, my friend. Thank you. And it's always a pleasure to have you join me here in the common room, Dawn. And looking forward to working with you again real soon, too.
- [22:51]
Don Marshall
Yeah, likewise. It's going to be great. Happy to be back. Happy to continue to be a part of this outstanding community. And kudos to you for doing this as well. This is one of my favorite parts of the year. And just. It's nice to see the Tolkien community together once more.
- [23:05]
Alan Sisto
It really is. It's such a privilege to be a part of this. Thank you, Don. Thank you. Take care.
- [23:09]
James Tauber
Bye.
- [23:09]
Don Marshall
Bye.
- [23:14]
Sean Marchese
Spring starts at the Home Depot and we are bringing the heat to your backyard this season. Fire up the flavor with our wide variety of grills for under $300. Like the next grill 4 burner gas
- [23:25]
Alan Sisto
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- [23:27]
Sean Marchese
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- [23:31]
Alan Sisto
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- [23:33]
Sean Marchese
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- [23:45]
Matt from Nerd of the Rings
Get in the game with the college
- [23:46]
James Tauber
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- [23:48]
Matt from Nerd of the Rings
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- [23:50]
Alan Sisto
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- [23:52]
James Tauber
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- [23:55]
Matt from Nerd of the Rings
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- [23:57]
Alan Sisto
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- [24:00]
James Tauber
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- [24:05]
Matt from Nerd of the Rings
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- [24:07]
Sara Brown
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- [24:08]
James Tauber
Venmo stash terms and exclusions apply at Venmo me stash terms max $100 cash back per month.
- [24:16]
Matt from Nerd of the Rings
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- [24:36]
Alan Sisto
Now. Soon we'll get back to more passages celebrating unlikely heroes. But before we do, we want to remind you there's a lot more talk going on at the Prancing Pony Podcast than just us.
- [24:45]
James Tauber
The PPP really does have a warm and welcoming listener community. If you've got questions or just want to talk about how much you love Middle Earth, be sure to check out our common room on Facebook and across all social media. On Facebook, just look for the Prancing Pony podcast. Yeah, there's a page, but you're going to want to join the group for that great fan community.
- [25:02]
Alan Sisto
And on every social media platform other than Facebook. We're at Prancing Pony Pod. You can find our subreddit at R Prancing Ponypod. And be sure to check out my daily show, today's Tolkien times on YouTube and all your favorite podcast apps. Get your daily Middle Earth fix with everything from Middle Earth map Mondays to First Stage Fridays. Be sure to watch or listen at YouTube.com prancing pony pod. Now our next guest is also my next co host. Last year he endured the six episode long sidebar on Kirjano Naoral and he'll be coming back in just a few weeks to help me search for some jewelry in the hunt for the ring. Listeners, please welcome back Matt from the Nerd of the Rings. Welcome, Sir Alan.
- [25:45]
Matt from Nerd of the Rings
Thanks so much for having me again,
- [25:46]
Alan Sisto
dude, it's a privilege. It always is.
- [25:48]
Matt from Nerd of the Rings
Yeah, it's always fun. Maybe not for your editor, but for us it's fun.
- [25:53]
Alan Sisto
Yeah. Yeah, Jordan, maybe not. I might have to actually come up with an extra bon for him when you. Come on, Matt, what unlikely hero have you chosen and why?
- [26:02]
Matt from Nerd of the Rings
Well, you know, I was really tempted to pick ael, but I'm just. I've had my fill of of that for a bit. I love people who've who've watched my channel and heard me yap long enough will know that I adore the book the Children of Hurin.
- [26:19]
Alan Sisto
Oh, that's right. I mean, it's why you're gonna do the Children of Hurin with me when I do the Great Tales, right?
- [26:23]
Matt from Nerd of the Rings
Yes, I made that abundantly clear that that was the one.
- [26:26]
Alan Sisto
I called it in dibs.
- [26:28]
Matt from Nerd of the Rings
I believe y did. I did. Because. And it stems from the audiobook read by Christopher Lee.
- [26:35]
Alan Sisto
Oh, that's fantastic.
- [26:36]
Matt from Nerd of the Rings
It's unique in that because, I mean, it's the only Middle Earth audiobook that Christopher Lee narrated and he does such a great job.
- [26:45]
Alan Sisto
He really, really does.
- [26:47]
Matt from Nerd of the Rings
Yeah. So I I just have always been drawn to that book. It's so unique. It's so dark in some ways. But, like, there's also.
- [26:55]
Alan Sisto
Yes.
- [26:56]
Matt from Nerd of the Rings
Great moments of. Of hope buried within it as well. Like, it just has a unique balance in terms of what people classically think of when it comes to Tolkien. You know, we. We always think of, oh, overcoming the odds and people banding together, and it's like, yeah, you know, sometimes life just sucks. And that is the life of.
- [27:18]
Alan Sisto
Don't tell me that Turin is your. Your unlikely hero.
- [27:22]
Matt from Nerd of the Rings
He is not. No, but we are. We're going to look at his father, who has some of my favorite moments in the book.
- [27:28]
Alan Sisto
Oh. Some of my favorite moments in the whole legendarium. Yeah.
- [27:31]
Matt from Nerd of the Rings
Yes. So, yeah, we're. We're going to. We're going to visit Hurin of the title, the children of Hurin.
- [27:38]
Alan Sisto
All right. Well, fire away, sir.
- [27:40]
Matt from Nerd of the Rings
And this is the chapter, the Words of Hurin and Morgoth. Now, by the command of Morgoth, the orcs with great labor gathered all the bodies of their enemies and. And all their harness and weapons and piled them in a mound in the midst of the Plain of Anfauglith. And it was like a great hill that could be seen from afar. And the Eldar named it Hod en Nir Naeth. But grass came there and grew again long and green upon that hill. Alone in all the desert. And no servant of Morgoth thereafter trod upon the earth. And beneath which the swords of the Eldar and the Edain crumbled into rust. The realm of Fingon was no more. And the sons of Feanor wandered as leaves before the wind to Hithlum. None of the men of Hador's house returned, nor any tidings of the battle and the fate of their lords. But Morgoth sent thither men who were under his dominion and swarthy Easterlings. And he shut them in that land and forbade them to leave it. This was all that he gave them of the rich rewards that he had promised them for their treachery to Maedhros to plunder and harass the old and the children and womenfolk of Hador's people, the remnant of the Eldar of Hithlum, all those who did not escape into the wilds and the mountains. And he took to the mines of Angband, and they became his thralls. But the orcs went freely through all the north and pressed ever southward into Beleriand. There Doriath yet remained, and Nargothrond. But Morgoth gave little heed to them either because he knew little of them or because their hour was not yet come in the designs of his malice, but his thought ever returned to Turgon. Therefore Hurin was brought before Morgoth. For Morgoth knew by his arts and his spies that Hurin had the friendship of the king and he sought to daunt him with his eyes. But Hurin could not yet be daunted, and he defied Morgoth. Therefore Morgoth had him chained and set in slow torment. But after a while he came to him and offered him his choice. To go free whither he would or to receive power and rank as the greatest of Morgoth's captains if he would but reveal where Turgon had his stronghold and aught else that he knew of the king's counsels. But Hurin the Steadfast mocked him, saying, blind you are, Morgoth Bauglir and blind shall ever be seeing only the dark. You know not what rules the hearts of men, and if you knew, you could not give it. But a fool is he who accepts what Morgoth offers. You will take first the price and then withhold the promise. And I should get only death if I told you what you ask. Then Morgoth laughed, and he said, death you may yet crave of me as a boon. Then he took Hurin to the Howden Nirnaeth and it was then new built and the reek of death was upon it. And Morgoth set Hurin upon its top and bade him look west and towards Hithlum and think of his wife and his son and other kin. For they dwell now in my realm, said Morgoth, and they are at my mercy. You have none, said Hurin but you will not come at Turgon through them, for they do not know his secrets. Then wrath mastered Morgoth, and he said, yet I may come at you and all your accursed house and you shall be broken on my will though you all were made of steel. And he took up a long sword that lay there and broke it before the eyes of Hurin and. And a splinter wounded his face. But Hurin did not blench. Then Morgoth, stretching out his long arm towards Dor Lomin, cursed Hurin and Morwen and their offspring, saying, behold, the shadow of my thought shall lie upon them wherever they go and my hate shall pursue them to the ends of the world. But Hurin said, you speak in vain, for you cannot see them nor govern them from afar. Not while you keep this shape and desire still to be a king visible on the earth. Then Morgoth turned upon Hurin, and he said, fool, little among men, and they are the least of all that Speak.
- [33:19]
Alan Sisto
Speak.
- [33:20]
Matt from Nerd of the Rings
Have you seen the Valar? Or measured the power of Manwe and Varda? Do you know the reach of their thought? Or do you think perhaps that their thought is upon you and that they may shield you from afar? I know not, said Hurin. Yet so it might be, if they willed for the elder king shall not be dethroned while Ardour endures. You say it, said Morgoth, I am the elder King, Melkor, first and mightiest of all the Valar, who was before the world and made it. The shadow of my purpose lies upon Arda, and all that is in it bends slowly and surely to my will. But upon all whom you love, my thoughts shall weigh as a cloud of doom. And it shall bring them down into darkness and despair. Wherever they go, evil shall arise. Whenever they speak, their words shall bring ill counsel. Whatsoever they do shall turn against them. They shall die without hope, cursing both life and death. But Hurin answered, Do you forget to whom you speak such things? You spoke long ago to our fathers, but we escaped from your shadow and now we have knowledge of you. For we have looked on the faces that have seen the light and heard the voices that have spoken with Manwe. Before Arda, you were but others also, and you did not make it. Neither are you the most mighty, for you have spent your strength upon yourself and wasted it in your own emptiness. No more are you now than an escaped thrall of the Valar and their chain still awaits you. You have learned the lessons of your masters by rote, said Morgoth. But such childish lore will not help you now. They are all fled away. This last, then I will say to you thrall Morgoth, said Hurin, and it comes not from the law of the Eldar, but is put into my heart in this hour. You are not the lord of Men and shall not be. Though all Arda and Menel fall in your dominion beyond the circles of the world you shall not pursue those who refuse you. Beyond the circles of the world I will not pursue them, said Morgoth. For beyond the circles of the world there is nothing but within them they shall not escape me until they enter into nothing. You lie, said Hurin. You shall see and you shall confess that I do not lie, said Morgoth. And taking Hurin back to Angband, he set him in A chair of stone upon a high place of of Thangorodrim from which he could see afar the land of Hithlum in the west and the lands of Beleriand in the south. There he was bound by the power of Morgoth. And Morgoth, standing beside him, cursed him again and set his power upon him so that he could not move from that place nor die until Morgoth should release him. Sit now there, said Morgoth, and look out upon the lands where evil and despair shall come upon those whom you have delivered to me. For you have dared to mock me and have questioned the power of Melkor, master of the fates of Arda. Therefore, with my eyes you shall see and with my ears you shall hear and nothing shall be hidden from you. And now from here we're going to go to the Silmarillion in the Chapter of the Ruin of Doriath. And Hurin, of course, would go on to retrieve the now Glamir necklace from Nargothrond to after slaying Mim, the petty dwarf who was one of those who betrayed Turin. So he definitely came across some vengeance along his way.
- [38:26]
Alan Sisto
Yeah, he did.
- [38:27]
Matt from Nerd of the Rings
And. And then we see that Hurin would cast the now Glamir scornfully at the feet of Thingol who had fostered Turin. Then Thingol looked upon the great treasure and knew it for the Nowglamir. And well did he understand Hurin's intent. But, being filled with pity, he restrained his wrath and endured Hurin scorn. At last Melion spoke and said, Hurinthalion, Morgoth hath bewitched thee. For he that seeth through Morgoth's eyes, willing or unwilling seeth all things crooked. Long was Turin thy son, fostered in the halls of Menegroth and shown love and honour as the son of the king. And it was not by the king's will, nor by mine that he came never back to Doriath. And afterwards thy wife and thy daughter were harboured here with honour and goodwill. And we sought by all means that we might to dissuade Morwen from the road to Nargothrond. With the voice of Morgoth thou dost now upbraid thy friends. And hearing the words of Melian, Hurin stood moveless. And he gazed long into the eyes of the queen. And there in Menegroth, defended still by the girdle of Melian from the darkness of the enemy he read the truth of all that was done and tasted. At last the fullness of Woe that was measured for him by Morgoth Bauglir. And he spoke no more of what was past but stooping lift up the Nauglmir from where it lay before Thingol's chair and he gave it to him, saying, receive now, Lord, the necklace of the Dwarves as a gift from one who has nothing and as a memorial of Hurin of Dor Lomin. For now my fate is fulfilled and the purpose of Morgoth achieved. But I am his thrall no longer.
- [40:46]
Alan Sisto
Wow, that is a powerful reading.
- [40:51]
Matt from Nerd of the Rings
It is quite a life, I must say.
- [40:54]
Alan Sisto
It's a rough one. It's a rough one. I mean, it is. You think back to the stuff that we didn't read you know, as a young man getting airlifted to Gondolin and spending a year there and having to take the Red Eye back home. So you think of all that he went through even before this. He'd essentially lived half his life before the Neunite. And he spends then 28 years chained to that chair unable to leave and unable to stop seeing these things. He can't even close his eyes to. To. To the truth.
- [41:33]
Matt from Nerd of the Rings
Yeah.
- [41:34]
Alan Sisto
To the truth twisted through Morgoth's lens. Like Melian was saying, like, you know, when you see through his eyes you're going to see all things crooked.
- [41:41]
Matt from Nerd of the Rings
Yeah.
- [41:41]
Alan Sisto
I got to ask you, what made you decide? I mean, I think we all see Hurin as a little bit of a hero. I mean, Aure and Tulava and all that.
- [41:48]
Sean Marchese
Yeah.
- [41:49]
Alan Sisto
What makes him sort of the unexpected hero here?
- [41:52]
Matt from Nerd of the Rings
I think so. On the theme of unlikely heroes, you're right, he's not like the first one. And there is more reason than just like, I wanted to depress your listeners when they're. I'm sure they're. They're getting a full dose of like, yay, here's the Hobbits and here's Eowyn. And like all these cheer rah rah moments.
- [42:14]
Alan Sisto
Like, believe it or not, everybody wants to pick somebody that's a little offbeat. So we didn't get Aowen. Yeah.
- [42:19]
Matt from Nerd of the Rings
Oh, wow. Okay. Maybe I should have done a one. Goodness. But no. So because it is, you know, a little offbeat, a little unexpected. But I think it's appropriate because when else do we see a mortal stick up to a valor? One of the, you know. Well, one of the spelled Valar, but, you know, like, someone of that caliber.
- [42:45]
Alan Sisto
I mean, of that tier. Yeah.
- [42:46]
Matt from Nerd of the Rings
Yes. I mean, we see. We see like, Elendil faces off with Sauron. Like that's That's a pretty big power.
- [42:53]
Alan Sisto
Yeah, yeah, but an actual Vala.
- [42:55]
Matt from Nerd of the Rings
Yeah, but this is a Vala. And this is a mortal who is just like, giving it right back to him. Like, he is not stepping down. He's not stepping back from this.
- [43:07]
Alan Sisto
Yeah, no, and I think that's. That's the thing. I think that's what makes this unlikely, if you will, is there aren't very many mortals, if any, that would have the courage, and not just the courage, but sort of the. The confident knowledge. I mean, you look at what he says and sure, he's just repeating back what he's been taught, which is what Morgoth tells him. But then Hurin's like, no, no, no, wait. I have something else to say too. And this has been put into my heart right now. Like, this is the other Valar speaking through me.
- [43:41]
Matt from Nerd of the Rings
Yes, I love that implication.
- [43:43]
Alan Sisto
Yes, that's exactly what he's implying. And it's. You are not the Lord of Men. Even if you had the heavens and the earth. Right? That's what Arda and Menel. Menel is the heavens. Even if all of that fell in your dominion, you're still not the Lord of Men. You're still, you know, Iluvatar is still in charge because beyond the circles of the world, which is, of course where men go. Right. What do we know? The Elves say, oh, I have no idea what happens to Men, but they go beyond the circles of the world.
- [44:09]
Matt from Nerd of the Rings
Right.
- [44:10]
Alan Sisto
And Morgoth trying to insinuate that it's just annihilation outside of that, that there is nothing out there.
- [44:17]
Matt from Nerd of the Rings
Yeah, yeah, yeah. He's just trying. He's trying so many ways to, like, get under Hurin's skin and to, like, make him doubt. And Hurin just refuses to.
- [44:29]
Alan Sisto
And what's crazy is this isn't just like, you know, tell us everything you know about your people. No, this is. Tell me what you know about Turgon. He's doing this to protect the Immortal Elves. He's giving up his mortal life to protect the Immortal Elves. It's mind blowing to me in a way. It kind of flips Finrod on his head.
- [44:53]
Matt from Nerd of the Rings
Right?
- [44:53]
Alan Sisto
With Finrod sacrificing his life for Beren.
- [44:55]
Matt from Nerd of the Rings
Right. Yeah. And we know that based on the moment where Hurin gets captured and Huor dies.
- [45:06]
James Tauber
Yes.
- [45:06]
Matt from Nerd of the Rings
Like, they. They know that as long as Gondolin stands, Morgoth will know fear.
- [45:12]
Alan Sisto
He will know fear. That's correct.
- [45:14]
Matt from Nerd of the Rings
And so he knows, like, he is not under any circumstances giving up Gondolin.
- [45:20]
Alan Sisto
He's already counted his life as forfeit. Right. I mean.
- [45:22]
Matt from Nerd of the Rings
Yeah.
- [45:23]
Alan Sisto
And who are. And the men of Dor Lomond were, like, if we can't win, back to our houses. We will make this last stand right here. We will die. Yeah, but we will die for a purpose.
- [45:34]
Matt from Nerd of the Rings
Right? And like, it. There's. There's some. Something powerful. You know, you mentioned. He knows that when. When mortals die, they go beyond the circles of the world. He's like, you can kill me, but you won't be able to, like, do anything.
- [45:47]
Alan Sisto
Then you have no control.
- [45:48]
Matt from Nerd of the Rings
I'm gonna be beyond your reach, you know?
- [45:50]
Alan Sisto
Yeah.
- [45:50]
Matt from Nerd of the Rings
And obviously Morgoth has a pretty effective torture method here.
- [45:56]
Sean Marchese
Yeah.
- [45:56]
Matt from Nerd of the Rings
But still, like, it's just such an amazing moment to me. One, because, like, Morgoth's lines are also bangers in this.
- [46:05]
Alan Sisto
Oh, they really are. Yeah.
- [46:06]
Matt from Nerd of the Rings
It's fantastic. Like, the writing in all of this is amazing. As expected. But you look at, again, looking at this mortal man, and you think of all the people who have fallen to Morgoth's, whether his influence, his threats, whatever. Like, Sauron, the Balrogs. Like, those are Maiar, and they totally got duped into. Into his thing. And then you think of, like, Meglin. Like, didn't take much for him to give up Gondolin. And.
- [46:35]
Alan Sisto
No, it took a little perverted appreciation
- [46:38]
Matt from Nerd of the Rings
of his snobbery of some of the Elves and Elven folk, you know, like, oh, yeah, Hurin's the man who didn't give up.
- [46:44]
Alan Sisto
Hurin is, you know, And I. I tell you what, I think it hits absolutely the hardest when you get to the end, you know, protected by the girdle of Melian. A reminder that, of course, the girdle also protected Turin when he made some bad decisions while in Dorian. But the idea that, you know, now that he's defended by the girdle, he read the truth of all that was done and tasted at last, the fullness of woe. I'm glad you stopped where you stopped. I am his thrall no longer. Yeah, but we know that. Well, we don't know because it says, some say, right, it is sung that he cast himself into the sea and he took his own life. Yeah, that's a hard ending to hear. But certainly he has nothing left, you know, receive this as a gift from one who has nothing. And he's speaking of himself as though he's dead. As a memorial of Huron, of Dor Lomin. Yeah, that's brutal.
- [47:43]
Matt from Nerd of the Rings
Like, the.
- [47:44]
Sara Brown
The.
- [47:44]
Matt from Nerd of the Rings
Yeah, the Hurin. That used to be, like, he's that person is gone. Long gone.
- [47:50]
Alan Sisto
Yeah. And the sad truth is, in some ways he did fulfill the purpose of Morgoth. Right?
- [47:55]
Don Marshall
I mean, right?
- [47:56]
Matt from Nerd of the Rings
Yeah.
- [47:56]
Alan Sisto
He didn't find Gondolin because of Hurin, but he kind of at least now knows where Gondolin is because of Hurin. And then the now Glamir itself, I mean, thingol feeds into that by saying, oh, that's a pretty necklace. We should put the silmaril in it.
- [48:09]
Matt from Nerd of the Rings
You know, nothing bad ever happened from messing around with Summer else, that's for sure.
- [48:15]
Alan Sisto
That's a good point. So I am his thrall no longer. That's also the line you said, I think when we were done with our run of episodes last season.
- [48:23]
Matt from Nerd of the Rings
I think that he might be right.
- [48:25]
Alan Sisto
I think that was.
- [48:26]
Sean Marchese
Yeah.
- [48:26]
Alan Sisto
I am glad though that you could make it back to the pony for this one, Matt.
- [48:30]
Matt from Nerd of the Rings
Thank you. That should be my final sign off
- [48:33]
Alan Sisto
on I Am his thrall no longer.
- [48:34]
Matt from Nerd of the Rings
Let's run.
- [48:35]
Sean Marchese
Yeah,
- [48:38]
Matt from Nerd of the Rings
I've been digging the Bilbo line that I always use, but maybe for the last episode I'll just bust that one out.
- [48:43]
Alan Sisto
I'll try not to laugh if it comes along. Well, Matt, I can't wait to figure out where the Nazgul went wrong. You know, alongside you as we study the Hunt for the Ring in a few weeks. So we'll see you back here again soon.
- [48:53]
Matt from Nerd of the Rings
Thanks so much for having me. And yeah, I'm really excited. The Hunt for the Ring is a really cool section of Unfinished Tales. I'm really pumped for it.
- [49:02]
Alan Sisto
Same. Well, next up. Well, it feels like just yesterday we were talking about Eldarion and Arendus. And what a journey that was, folks. Please welcome back to the Common room. After a very brief break, the shield maiden of Rohan, Dr. Sara Brown.
- [49:16]
Sara Brown
Oh, it's great to be back. It does feel like just yesterday. But it's delightful to be back.
- [49:22]
Alan Sisto
It is always good to have you, Sara. Welcome back. Who is your unlikely hero today?
- [49:27]
Sara Brown
Well, it's not Aldarion, I'll tell you that.
- [49:30]
Alan Sisto
I am shocked. Shocked, I tell you. Right.
- [49:33]
Sara Brown
Neither. Is it Arendes? No, in fact, my unlikely hero is Fredegar Bolger.
- [49:40]
Alan Sisto
Ooh, Fatty Bolger. I love it. I love it. I can't wait to hear this. Let's get into the reading. I can't wait to listen.
- [49:48]
Sara Brown
Okay, now, obviously, because Freddy doesn't have everything all in one place, like great heroic moments all in one place. It's a little bit bitty. It's coming from different parts, but I' you know where everything comes from. So from the Fellowship of the ring. Chapter 5 A conspiracy unmasked Frodo sat for a while in thought. I have made up my mind, he said finally. I'm starting to morrow as soon as it is light. But I am not going by road. It would be safer to wait here than that. If I go through the North Gate, my departure from Buckland will be known at once instead of being secret for several days at least as it might be. And what is more, the bridge and the east road near the borders will certainly be watched whether any rider gets into Buckland or not. We don't know how many there are, but there are at least two, and possibly more, and the only thing to do is to go off in a quite unexpected direction. But that can only mean going into the Old Forest, said Fredegar, horrified. You can't be thinking of doing that. It is quite as dangerous as Black Riders. Not quite, said Merry. It sounds very desperate. But I believe Frodo is right. It is the only way of getting off without being followed at once. With luck, we might get a considerable start. But you won't have any luck in the Old Forest, objected Fredegar. No one ever has luck in there. You'll get lost. People don't go in there. Oh yes they do, said Merry. The Brandybucks go in occasionally, when the fit takes them. We have a private entrance. Frodo went in once, long ago. I have been in several times. Usually in daylight, of course, when the trees are sleepy and fairly quiet. Well, do as you think best, said Fredegar. I am more afraid of the Old Forest than of anything I know about. The stories about it are a nightmare, but my vote hardly counts, as I'm not going on the journey. Still, I'm very glad someone is stopping behind who can tell Gandalf what you have done when he turns up, as I'm sure he will before long. Fond as he was of Frodo, Fatty Bulger had no desire to leave the Shire, nor to see what lay outside it. His family came from the East Farthing, from Budgford in Bridgefields, in fact. But he'd never been over the Brandywine Bridge. His task, according to the original plans of the conspirators, was to stay behind and deal with inquisitive folk and to keep up as long as possible the pretence that Mr. Baggins was still living at Crickhollow. He had even brought along some old clothes of Frodo's to help him in playing the Part they little thought how dangerous that part might prove. Excellent, said Frodo, when he understood the plan. We could not have left any message behind for Gandalf otherwise. I do not know whether these riders can read or not, of course, but I should not have dared to risk a written message in case they got in and searched the house. But if Fatty is willing to hold the fort and I can be sure of Gandalf knowing the way we have gone, that decides me. I am going into the Old Forest first thing to morrow. Well, that's that, said Pippin. On the whole I would rather have our job than Fatty's waiting here till black Riders come. You wait till you are well inside the forest, said Fredegar. You'll wish you were back here with me before this time to morrow. It's no good arguing about it any more, said Merry. We have still got to tidy up and put the finishing touches to the packing before we get to bed. I shall call you all before the break of day. When at last he had got to bed, Frodo could not sleep for some time. His legs ached. He was glad that he was riding in the morning. Eventually he fell into a vague dream in which he seemed to be looking out of a high window over a dark sea of tangled trees. Down below among the roots there was the sound of creatures crawling and snuffling. He felt sure they would smell him out sooner or later. Then he heard a noise in the distance. At first he thought it was a great wind coming over the leaves of the forest. Then he knew that it was not leaves but the sound of the sea far off. A sound he had never heard in waking life, though it had often troubled his dreams. Suddenly he found he was out in the open. There were no trees after all. He was on a dark heath and there was a strange salt smell in the air. Looking up, he saw before him a tall white tower standing alone on a high ridge. A great desire came over him to climb the tower and see the sea. He started to struggle up the ridge towards the tower but suddenly a light came in the sky and there was a noise of thunder. And now we move to. Chapter 6. The Old Forest Frodo woke suddenly. It was still dark in the room. Merry was standing there with a candle in one hand and banging on the door with the other. All right, what is it? Said Frodo, still shaken and bewildered. What is it? Cried Merry. It is time to get up. It is half past four and very foggy. Come on. Sam is already getting breakfast ready. Even Pippin is up. I am just going to saddle the ponies and fetch the one that is to be the baggage carrier. Wake that sluggard Fatty. At least he must get up and see us off. Soon after 6 o' clock, the five Hobbits were ready to start. Fatty Bolger was still yawning. They stole quietly out of the house. Merry went in front, leading a laden pony and took his way along a path that went through a spinney behind the house and then cut across several fields. The leaves of trees were glistening and every twig was dripping. The grass was grey with cold dew. Everything was still and far away. Noises seemed near and clear. Fowls chattering in the yard, someone closing a door of a distant house. In their shed they found the ponies, sturdy little beasts of the kind loved by Hobbits, not speedy, but good for a long day's work. They mounted and soon they were riding off into the mist which seemed to open reluctantly before them and close forbiddingly behind them. After riding for about an hour slowly and without talking, they saw the hedge looming suddenly ahead. It was tall and netted over with silver cobwebs. How are you going to get through this? Asked Fredegar. Follow me, said Merry, and you will see. He turned to the left along the hedge and soon they came to a point where it bent inwards, running along the lip of a hollow. A cutting had been made at some distance from the hedge and went sloping gently down into the ground. It had walls of bricks at the side which rose steadily until suddenly they arched over and formed a tunnel that dived deep under the hedge and came out in the hollow on the other side. Here, Fatty Bulger halted. Good bye, Frodo, he said. I wish you were not going into the forest. I only hope you will not need rescuing before the day is out. But good luck to you today and every day. If there are no worse things ahead than the Old Forest, I shall be lucky, said Frodo. Tell Gandalf to hurry along the East Road. We shall soon be back on it and going as fast as we can. Goodbye. They cried, and rode down the slope and disappeared from Fredega's sight into the tunnel. And so we move to. Chapter 11. A knife in the Dark as they prepared for sleep in the inn at Bree, darkness lay on Buckland. A mist strayed in the dells and along the river bank. The house at Crick Hollow stood silent. Fatty Bolger opened the door cautiously and peered out. A feeling of fear had been growing on him all day, and he was unable to rest or go to bed. There was a brooding threat in the breathless night air. As he stared out into the gloom, a black shadow moved under the trees. The gate seemed to open of its own accord and close again without a sound. Terror seized him. He shrank back and for a moment he stood trembling in the hall. Then he shut and locked the door. The night deepened. There came the soft sound of horses led with stealth along the lane. Outside the gate they stopped and three black figures entered like shades of night creeping across the ground. One went to the door, one to the corner of the house on either side. And there they stood as still of the shadows of stones While night went slowly on the house and the quiet trees seemed to be waiting breathlessly. There was a faint stir in the leaves and a cock crowed. Far away, the cold hour before dawn was passing. The figure by the door moved in the dark without moon or stars. A drawn blade gleamed as if a chill light had been unsheathed. There was a blow, soft but heavy, and the door shuddered open. In the name of Mordor, said a voice thin and menacing. At a second blow, the door yielded and fell back. With timbers burst and lock broken. The black figures passed swiftly in. At that moment, among the trees nearby, a horn rang out. It rent the night like fire on a hilltop.
- [59:42]
Matt from Nerd of the Rings
Awake.
- [59:43]
Sara Brown
Fear. Fire. Foes. Awake. Fatty Bolger had not been idle. As soon as he saw the dark shapes creep from the garden, he knew that he must run for it or perish. And run he did. Out of the back door, through the garden and over the fields. When he reached the nearest house, more than a mile away, he collapsed on the doorstep. No, no, no. He was crying. No, not me. I haven't got. Was some time before anyone could make out what he was babbling about. At last they got the idea that enemies were in Buckland. Some strange invasion from the Old Forest. And then they lost no more time. Fear. Fire, foes. The Brandybucks were blowing the horn call of Buckland that had not been sounded for a hundred years. Not since the white wolves came in the fell winter when the Brandywine was frozen over.
- [60:45]
James Tauber
Awake.
- [60:46]
Sara Brown
Awake. Far away, answering horns were heard. The alarm was spreading. The black figures fled from the house. One of them let fall a Hobbit cloak on the step. As he ran in the lane, the noise of hoofs broke out and gathering to a gallop went hammering away into the darkness. All about Crick Hollow there was the sound of horns blowing and voices crying and feet running. But the black riders rode Like a gale. To the North Gate. Let the little people blow. Sauron would deal with them later. Meanwhile, they had another errand. They knew now that the house was empty and the Ring had gone. They rode down the guards at the gate and vanished from the Shire. And so we move to the return of the king. We're in Chapter nine, the Grey Havens. The clearing up certainly needed a lot of work, but it took less time than Sam had feared. The day after the battle, Frodo rode to Mickel Delving and released the prisoners from the lock holes. One of the first that they found was poor Fredega Bulger. Fatty no longer. He had been taken when the ruffians smoked out a band of rebels that he led from their hidings up in the Brockenbors by the hills of Skerry. You would have done better to come with us after all. Poor old Fredegar, said Pippin as they carried him out. Too weak to walk, he opened an eye and tried gallantly to smile. Who's this young giant with the loud voice? He whispered. Not little Pippin. What's your size in hats now? And there you are.
- [62:28]
Alan Sisto
I love that. You know, he really is an unlikely hero. But tell me, in your eyes, like, what made you decide on Fredegar today?
- [62:39]
Sara Brown
I think he is underestimated. He seems like somebody who's, oh, I'm not for adventures. I don't want to do that. I'm just going to stay home. But, you know, he took on a job which was actually, they probably didn't realize just how dangerous it could be.
- [62:57]
Alan Sisto
Yeah, I don't think he did, you
- [62:58]
Sara Brown
know, but he took on a job that was really important, which was to cover for Frodo and give him as much time as possible to get away without people knowing that he wasn't there. And when he was faced with, well, some of the worst danger that the Shire has ever beheld, you know, with the. The three black riders approaching the house, it says in the text that he knew he had to run for it or perish. Yeah, and he did. But he didn't just run away, he raised the alarm. So even in the midst of that absolute terror, he knew he had to do something. And he did that. And I think that takes a bit of inner strength, you know.
- [63:41]
Alan Sisto
I think it does.
- [63:42]
Sara Brown
And I wonder if that wasn't a bit of a turning point for Freddy Bulger because then, of course, we find out right at the end that he was part of the resistance.
- [63:50]
Alan Sisto
Yeah, he was part of the band of rebels and imprisoned early yeah, yeah.
- [63:55]
Sara Brown
So he's one of these. I was going to say little people, but literally, as a Hobbit, he's one of these minor characters, these small, seemingly insignificant, what Tolkien refers to as like just ordinary people. But the part they play is so important.
- [64:18]
Alan Sisto
Yeah.
- [64:18]
Sara Brown
It's not. This story, this whole story, the Lord of the Rings is not just about the high ups. It's not all about the prince and the lords and the king in waiting and all of those. Because they couldn't actually have done what they did without the actions of the little people, the ordinary folk, the ones who work together with them to make stuff happen. And here, right in a tiny corner in an insignificant part of the world that had just totally slipped everybody's mind, this one hobbit decides he's going to be part of the resistance. That's not an easy decision to make. He could have sat at home and he doesn't.
- [65:02]
Alan Sisto
He could have. He could have sided with Lotho and gained a little bit of power or influence. He could have just tried to keep his head down and just follow the rules. But he decided, and I think you're right, that the turning point was the recognition that there are these terrifying enemies out there.
- [65:19]
Sara Brown
Right.
- [65:20]
Alan Sisto
There are things outside the Shire that we have to stand up against.
- [65:25]
Sara Brown
Exactly. And I'm not sure that Freddy really understood just what danger Frodo et al were going into until that moment.
- [65:35]
Alan Sisto
Yeah, yeah. I mean, because until then it was all, oh, the forest is terrible, the forest is terrible and you know, it's a horrible nightmare place. Then he actually had to face nightmares, literally in the form of showing up.
- [65:48]
Sara Brown
Exactly.
- [65:50]
Alan Sisto
And like you said, he could have just ran away to run away. But he ran away and made sure the alarm was sounded. He ran away to where the alarm would be blown. You know. The Horn of Buckland.
- [66:04]
Sara Brown
Exactly. And this is. I like that about him. And there are other characters that seem to have a turning point. I mean, Lobelia, Sackville, Baggins being another one. But, you know, here we have this ordinary Hobbit.
- [66:19]
Alan Sisto
There might not be enough text on her, but she would have been an unlikely hero too. I'll show you. Saki.
- [66:26]
Sara Brown
Yes, yes. I mean, immediately after this little bit from that chapter, the Grey Havens is the release of Lobelia from the same prison. And, you know, she's just in a desperate state, but still clutching that umbrella.
- [66:41]
Alan Sisto
Still clutching umbrella. And I love that she's. I love her redemption arc, you know, giving away her wealth.
- [66:47]
Sara Brown
So do I.
- [66:48]
Alan Sisto
Such a beautiful thing that she does, you know. You're right. It's seeing these insignificant, kind of the wrong word because they end up being very significant but seemingly insignificant characters.
- [66:59]
Sara Brown
Seemingly?
- [67:00]
Alan Sisto
Yes. Like Freddy Bulger, like Lobelia Sackville Baggins turn into incredible heroes. Farmer Cotton comes to mind, you know.
- [67:09]
Sara Brown
Yes.
- [67:10]
Alan Sisto
These hobbits who are so provincial and sort of, you know, isolated in a way that they don't even. It's not only just that they don't care about the outside world, they literally couldn't care less because they don't know. In one of the passages you read about Bulger, he'd never even been over the bridge and he was in the East Farthing.
- [67:33]
Sara Brown
How contained was his life?
- [67:34]
Alan Sisto
How contained is this indeed. Yeah, I feel like it's something. When we're looking at heroism, where's the starting point for Aragorn? His starting point is so high that he has to do amazing things to be a hero. And he does. That's why the Return of the King is about Aragorn. But you look at the starting point of a character like Freddy Bolger. This is heroism of the same scale. It's just a different starting point.
- [68:03]
Sara Brown
It is, yes, yes. And that's important, is recognizing that you do not have to be one of the high ups to be a hero. You just need to have a moment where you've got to make a decision. Are you going to slip into the shadows or are you going to stand up and say, nope, I'm going to do something about this? And that is kind of heroic.
- [68:30]
Alan Sisto
It's very heroic. I love that. You're right. It's all you need is one moment and the courage to make the right decision. Yes, good stuff. Sara, thank you for joining us here in the common room again today. I am already looking forward to our time in the Great Tales sometime next season and of course to our time on the Rings of Power. Wrap up, presumably starting again later this year. We hope so, assuming what Amazon does, but, I mean, we're sort of at their mercies there. But it should be a lot of fun.
- [68:57]
Sara Brown
Absolutely. I'm looking forward to that too. But thanks for having me back.
- [69:01]
Alan Sisto
Always a privilege, Jochen.
- [69:02]
Sara Brown
Val.
- [69:03]
Alan Sisto
Folks, my next guest needs virtually no introduction, but of course I'm going to give him one anyway. Even if you've only started listening recently, you know about my good friend and co founder of the ppp, the Lord of the Mark, Sean Marchese. And I know you'll give him a warm welcome here in the common room.
- [69:18]
Sean Marchese
Well, thanks, Alan. Always great to be back on the show. Thanks so much for having me. And I'm excited to be here for Tolkien Reading Day.
- [69:25]
Alan Sisto
It is always a privilege.
- [69:26]
Sean Marchese
10 years now of these.
- [69:27]
James Tauber
Yeah.
- [69:28]
Alan Sisto
Well, that's crazy. 10 years. But it means 11 episodes of it, doesn't it? We've done 11 TRDs.
- [69:33]
Sean Marchese
Sure does. Yeah, you're right. Yeah, that's right.
- [69:35]
Alan Sisto
Because we were only, like, a month into it when we did the first one.
- [69:38]
Sean Marchese
That's right. Yeah. I was trying to think, like, did we do a Tolkien Reading Day that first year? We did. It was only, like, a few weeks in. It was one of our first episodes.
- [69:45]
Alan Sisto
That was pretty wild.
- [69:46]
Sean Marchese
Yep.
- [69:47]
Alan Sisto
Well, I am certainly glad that you could join me for this episode. I'm also thrilled you'll be joining us again later this season, but more on that later. Over the previous Tolkien Reading Day specials, you've had a real history of picking up really wonderful passages to illustrate the theme. And frankly, this year's no different. Who is your unlikely hero today? Or should I say, who are your unlikely heroes?
- [70:06]
Sean Marchese
No. Well, thanks for saying that, Alan. I do try to kind of keep it interesting for the selections for Tolkien Reading Day. And for this one, it was kind of tough because Tolkien's work is so full of unlikely heroes. I mean, you know, every Hobbit, basically, that's fair. Eowyn, who, of course, is my favorite character and was like, the first thing I thought of was, like, oh, that one. Like, no, that's too obvious. And it's just one of those things that's, like, such a part of Tolkien's work that I found it hard to really narrow it down. So I could have chosen a lot of different things, but what I decided to do was go all the way back to season one of this show. And that means the Silmarillion. This is from chapter nine. This is about the flight of the Noldor. And I wanted to focus on two characters in particular who show us, let's say, a different kind of unlikely heroism that I think is really important. And it's the heroism to stand up for what's right, even when it's not easy. And I think folks can probably guess where now we're.
- [71:06]
Alan Sisto
Now we're headed where that. Yeah, I think we can see the dreadful direction.
- [71:11]
Sean Marchese
All right, so here we go. And indeed, when Feanor began the marshaling of the Noldor for their setting out, then at once dissension arose. For though he had brought the assembly in a mind to depart, by no means all were of a mind to take Feanor as king. Greater love was given to Fingolfin and his sons and his household and the most part of the dwellers in Tirion refused to renounce him if he would go with them. And thus, at the last, as two divided hosts the Noldor set forth upon their bitter road. Feanor and his following were in the Van but the greater host came behind under Fingolfin. And he marched against his wisdom because Fingon his son so urged him and because he would not be sundered from his people that were eager to go nor leave them to the rash counsels of Feanor. Nor did he forget his words before the throne of Manwe With Fingolfin went Finarfin also and for like reasons but most loath was he to depart. And of all the Noldor and Valinor who were grown now to a great people but one tithe refused to take the road. Some for the love that they bore to the Valar and to Aule not least some for the love of Tyrion and the many things that they had made. None for fear of peril by the way. But even as the trumpet sang and Feanor issued from the gates of Tirion a messenger came at last from Manwe saying, against the folly of Feanor shall be set my counsel only, go not forth, for the hour is evil and your road leads to sorrow that ye do not foresee. No aid will the Valar lend you in this quest but neither will they hinder you. For this ye shall know, as ye came hither, freely, freely shall ye depart. But thou, Feanor Fenwe's son, by thine oath art exiled. The lies of Melkor thou shalt unlearn in bitterness. Vala, he is, thou sayest. Then thou hast sworn in vain. For none of the Valar canst thou overcome now or ever within the halls of Ea. Not though eru, whom thou namest had made thee thrice greater than thou art. But Feanor laughed and spoke not to the herald but to the Noldor, saying, so then will this valiant people send forth the heir of their king alone into banishment with his sons only and return to their bondage. But if any will come with me, I say to them Is sorrow foreboded to you. But in Aman we have seen it in Amon we have come through bliss to woe the other. Now we will try through sorrow to find joy or freedom at the least. Then, turning to the herald, he cried, say this to Manwe, Sulimo, High King of if Feanor cannot overthrow Morgoth at least he delays not to Assail him and sits not idle in grief. And it may be that ERU has set in me a fire greater than thou knowest. Such hurt at the least will I do to the foe of the Valar that even the mighty in the Ring of doom shall wonder to hear it. Yea, in the end they shall follow me. Farewell. In that hour the voice of Feanor grew so great and so potent that even the herald of the Valar bowed before him as one full answered and departed and the Noldor were overruled. Therefore they continued their march and the house of Feanor hastened before them along the coasts of Elende. Not once did they turn their eyes back to Tirion on the green hill of Tuna. Slower and less eagerly came the host of Fingolfin after them. Of those, Fingon was the foremost. But at the rear went Finarfin and Finrod and many of the noblest and wisest of the Noldor. And often they looked behind them to see their fair city until the lamp of the Mindan el Dalieva was lost in the night. More than any others of the exiles they carried thence memories of the bliss they had forsaken and some even of the things that they had made there they took with them a solace and a burden on the road. Now Feanor led the Noldor northward because his first purpose was to follow Morgoth. Moreover, Tuna beneath Taniquetil was set nigh to the girdle of Arda and there the great sea was immeasurably wide whereas ever northward the sundering seas grew narrower as the wasteland of Ottaman and the coasts of Middle Earth drew together. But as the mind of Feanor cooled and took counsel he perceived over late that all these great companies would never overcome the long leagues to the north nor cross the seas at the last, save with the aid of ships. Yet it would need long time and toil to build so great a fleet even were there any among the Noldor skilled in that craft. He resolved now, therefore, to persuade the Teleri ever friends to the Noldor, to join with them. And in his rebellion he thought that thus the bliss of Valinor might be further diminished and his power for war upon Morgoth be increased. He hastened then to Alqualonde and spoke to the Teleri as he had spoken before in Tirion. But the Teleri were unmoved by aught that he could say. They were grieved indeed at the going of their kinsfolk and long friends but would rather dissuade them than aid them. And no ship would they lend nor help in the building against the will of the Valar. As for themselves, they desired now no other home but the strands of Aldamar. And no other lord than Olwe, Prince of Alqualonde. And he had never lent ear to Morgoth, nor welcomed him to his land. And he trusted still that Ulmo and the other great among the Valar would redress the hurts of Morgoth, and that the night would pass yet to a new dawn. Then Feanor grew wrathful, for he still feared delay. And hotly he spoke to Olwe. You renounce your friendship even in the hour of our need, he said. Yet you were glad indeed to receive our aid. When you came at last to these shores, faint hearted loiterers and well nigh empty handed in huts on the beaches would you be dwelling still had not the Noldor carved out your haven and toiled upon your walls. But alway answered, we renounce no friendship, but it may be the part of a friend to rebuke a friend's folly. And when the Noldor welcomed us and gave us aid otherwise. Then you spoke. In the land of Aman we were to dwell forever as brothers whose houses stand side by side. But as for our white ships, those you gave us not, we learned not that craft from the Noldor, but from the lords of the sea. And the white timbers we wrought with our own hands and the white sails were woven by our wives and our daughters. Therefore we will neither give them nor sell them for any league or friendship. For I say to you, Feanor, son of Finwe, these are to us, as are the gems of the Noldor, the work of our hearts, whose like we shall not make again. Thereupon Feanor left him and sat in dark thought beyond the walls of Alqualonde until his host was assembled. When he judged that his strength was enough, he went to the Haven of the Swans and began to man the ships that were anchored there and to take them away by force. But the Teleri withstood him and cast many of the Noldor into the sea. Then swords were drawn and a bitter fight was fought upon the ships and about the lamplit quays and piers of the Haven, and even upon the great arch of its gate. Thrice the people of Feanor were driven back and many were slain upon either side. But the vanguard of the Noldor were succored by Fingon with the foremost of the host of Fingolfin who, coming up, found a battle joined and their own kin falling, and rushed in before they knew rightly the cause of the quarrel. Some thought indeed that the Teledi had sought to waylay the march of the Noldor at the bidding of the Valar. Thus at last the Teledi were overcome, and a great part of their mariners that dwelt in Alkalonde were wickedly slain. For the Noldor were become fierce and desperate, and the Teledi had less strength, and were armed for the most part but with slender bows. Then the Noldor drew away their white ships and manned their oars as best they might, and rowed them north along the coast. And Olwe called upon Asa, but he came not. For it was not permitted by the Valar that the flight of the Noldor should be hindered by force. But Oinen wept for the mariners of the Teleri and the sea rose in wrath against the Slayers, so that many of the ships were wrecked and those in them drowned. Of the kinslaying at Alqualande, More is told in that lament which is named Noldelante. The fall of the Norlor. Of the kinslaying at Alqualande More is told in that lament which is named Noldelante, the fall of the Noldor that Maglor made ere he was lost. Nonetheless, the greater part of the Noldor escaped, and when the storm was passed they held on their course, some by ship and some by land. But the way was long and ever more evil as they went forward. After they had marched for a great while in the unmeasured night, they came at length to the northern confines of the guarded realm upon the borders of the empty waste of Ahriman, which were mountainous and cold. There they beheld suddenly a dark figure standing high upon a rock that looked down upon the shore. Some say that it was Mandas himself, and no lesser herald of Manwe. And they heard a loud voice, solemn and terrible, that bade them stand and give ear. Then all halted and stood still, and from end to end of the hosts of the Noldor the voice was heard speaking the curse and prophecy, which is called the prophecy of the north and the doom of the Noldor. Much it foretold in dark words which the Noldor understood not until the woes indeed after befell them. But all heard the curse that was uttered upon those that would not stay nor seek the doom and pardon of the Valar. Tears unnumbered, ye shall Shed. And the Valar will fence Valinor against you and shut you out so that not even the echo of your lamentation shall pass over the mountains on the house of Feanor. The wrath of the Valar lieth from the west unto the uttermost and upon all that will follow them it shall be laid also their oath shall drive them and yet betray them and ever snatch away the very treasures that they have sworn to pursue. To evil end shall all things turn, that they begin well. And by treason of kin unto kin and the fear of treason shall this come to pass. The dispossessed shall they be for ever ye have spilled the blood of your kindred unrighteously and have stained the land of Aman. For blood ye shall render blood and beyond Ammon ye shall dwell in death's shadow. For though ERU appointed to you to die, not in Ea and no sickness may assail you. Yet slain ye may be, and slain ye shall be by weapon and by torment and by grief. And your houseless spirits shall come then to Mandos. There long shall ye abide and yearn for your bodies and find little pity though all whom ye have slain should entreat for you. And those that endure in Middle Earth and come not to Mandos shall grow weary of the world as with a great burden and shall wane and become as shadows of regret before the younger race that cometh after the Valar have spoken. Then many quailed. But Feanor hardened his heart and said, we have sworn and not lightly this oath we will keep. We are threatened with many evils and treason not least. But one thing is not said that we shall suffer from cowardice from cravens or the fear of cravens. Therefore I say that we will go on and this doom I the deeds that we shall do shall be the matter of song until the last days of Arda. But in that hour Fanarfan forsook the march and turned back being filled with grief and with bitterness against the house of Feanor because of his kinship with Alway of Aqualonde. And many of his people went with him, retracing their steps in sorrow until they beheld once more the far beam of the Mindon upon Tuna still shining in the night. And so came at last to Valinor. There they received the pardon of the Valar and Fanarfin was set to rule the remnant of the Noldor in the blessed Realm. But his sons were not with him. For they would not forsake the sons of Fingolfin and all Fingolfin's folk went forward still feeling the constraint of their kinship and the will of Feanor and fearing to face the doom of the Valar since not all of them had been guiltless of the kinslaying at Aquilonde. Moreover, Fingon and Turgon were bold and fiery of heart and loath to abandon any task to which they had put their hands until the bitter end, if bitter it must be. So the main host held on and swiftly the evil that was foretold began its work.
- [84:34]
Alan Sisto
Wow. Wow. First of all, so many flashbacks. I mean, this brings me back to some of those season one episodes and all the. All the fun times we had with all the slender bows and Feanor in the van.
- [84:50]
Sean Marchese
Feanor in the van and everything.
- [84:52]
Alan Sisto
I love this stuff. Oh, man. So. So your hero then is Mandos for standing up against Fanor?
- [85:02]
Sean Marchese
He was just following orders, Alan.
- [85:04]
Alan Sisto
That's right. That's right.
- [85:06]
Sean Marchese
No, I mean, hopefully it's apparent from the reading but I mean, the heroes that I'm really thinking of here are Olwe and Finarfin. Yeah, you know, these are both people standing up for what they believe is right. You know, Olweh, the first time we see him. Right. You know, he is friends with Feanor. Yeah, but that doesn't mean he goes along with what he says. He says it can be the part of a friend to rebuke a friend's folly. To tell them when what they're doing is wrong. To tell them when what they're doing is foolish. And he stands up to Feanor knowing that Feanor is. He's hot tempered at the best of times and he is very angry right now. Who knows what he's capable of? You know, we saw him draw a sword on his brother not long ago in Valiant. Right? And that's exactly what happens here is that, you know, the Noldor do draw swords on utility. But yeah, I think that by standing up to Feanor when nobody else will I think Olwe shows us an example of an important kind of heroism. And this is after like, I mean, Valiant Fingolfin who we know is someday going to challenge Morgoth to single combat.
- [86:16]
Alan Sisto
Right.
- [86:17]
Sean Marchese
This is a brave prince of the Noldor. But he can't stand up to his brother. No, he goes along with it feeling
- [86:24]
Alan Sisto
the constraint of his kinship. And of course he promised, you know, half brother. You know, in blood I may be. But, you know, and you admire him for that because he'd been, you know, he looked at the end of Feanor's sword but he still just couldn't. He couldn't bring himself to say, I'm not gonna do this, but, oh, I couldn't.
- [86:46]
Sean Marchese
And, you know, yes, you're right. We admire that loyalty to a degree. But when it's at the point where that loyalty is bringing a host of
- [86:54]
Alan Sisto
people, that's the thing for following that.
- [86:57]
Sean Marchese
That's where I feel like, you know, Olwei being sort of the first one to stand up to Feanor. And, you know, look, it doesn't end well for the Teleri. No, but he does the right thing.
- [87:06]
Alan Sisto
100% does the right thing. And he. He's not trying to say, I'm right, you're wrong. He's just, you know, we're not going to be able to do this. We're in a situation where we're stuck between wanting to help friends but also wanting to help you not do the thing that. That is going to put you on the bad side of the Valar. Like the Valar have said, don't do this. And we think that you should listen to them, not you should listen to me, because I'm smarter than you.
- [87:30]
Sean Marchese
That's right.
- [87:31]
Alan Sisto
It's just there's a humility to it that I really admire.
- [87:33]
Sean Marchese
Well, and there's another thing here, which is just the compassion with which he dissents from this. I'm not doing this to anger you further. I'm trying to be a friend. I'm trying to show you how what you're doing is wrong. That's what friends do.
- [87:49]
Alan Sisto
And I'm not going to actively stop you either. If you want to, you go right ahead, but you're not going to have our help in doing it.
- [87:56]
Sean Marchese
Right. And also recognize that this is not, you know, this is not the plan. This was not what we dreamed of a long time ago when we all first came here and we were going to be happy here forever. You know, he's kind of trying to appeal to that memory of happier times.
- [88:13]
Alan Sisto
Yeah, a little bit of nostalgia there. Like, you helped us build this place. Yes. Yeah, but we were supposed to be best friends forever, man. You know, you're gonna hang out on the beach and just chill.
- [88:24]
Sean Marchese
Exactly.
- [88:26]
Alan Sisto
Frankly, sounds like a pretty nice life. I'm. I'm all about the tillery hanging out on the beach.
- [88:31]
Sean Marchese
Just makes it sound like they got
- [88:33]
Alan Sisto
the radio out there playing the Beach Boys getting the surfboard out. Yeah, yeah, I can see that.
- [88:40]
Sean Marchese
Anyway, so, yeah, that's alway. And I think that is an important kind of heroism. The heroism to stand up to somebody when you know, they're doing something wrong. But to do it, like you said, in a humble way, in a compassionate way, that's not trying to prove a point. It's not trying to win an argument. You're just trying to save somebody from themselves. And I think that's really important.
- [89:02]
Alan Sisto
And it is sad how many telery pay the price for that, thanks to Feanor. But he's not the only hero in this passage, is he, Sean?
- [89:10]
Sean Marchese
No, he's not. The other one is Finarfin, who we're told at the beginning of the passage that he doesn't really want to do this. He doesn't want to go. He was most loath to depart. He went along for similar reasons. To Fingolfin. There's that duty of kinship. He feels like, you know, he owes this to his older brother and, you know, his sons were part of that, too. But he really didn't want to go for reasons, because we've all been there. He kind of gives in to the pressure of his peers and he just goes along with it.
- [89:43]
Alan Sisto
I mean, his older brother's going. And then, of course, Feanor is going. Who's his older half brother?
- [89:48]
Sean Marchese
Older half brother, yeah.
- [89:49]
Alan Sisto
But, yeah, it's a tough spot that he's in. So he, like you said, loathe to depart. Of course.
- [89:56]
Sean Marchese
And it is this prophecy, this curse, this doom that they hear that finally sways him. Yeah, understandably so. Because, you know, if a pronouncement from Mandos is not going to change your mind, then.
- [90:08]
Alan Sisto
Yeah, that's a fair point.
- [90:09]
Sean Marchese
But again, we talked about this all the way back in season one. Feanor hears this and he doubles down, right?
- [90:14]
Alan Sisto
Yeah, yeah.
- [90:15]
Sean Marchese
He hardens his heart. He's like, no, we're going to keep this oath. And, like, at least we won't be cowards. And at least we're going to do great deeds that are going to be sung about, which is noble in its
- [90:25]
Alan Sisto
sense and which is, of course, actually true. That's the ironic thing is they are going to do some incredible things, but, yeah, they're also going to do some incredibly awful things. This kinslaying that we just experienced at Alqualande is just the first of three.
- [90:37]
Sean Marchese
The first of many.
- [90:38]
Alan Sisto
Yeah.
- [90:39]
Sean Marchese
But Fnarfin hears this, and this gives Finarfin the heart to turn back and to do what he's been thinking.
- [90:44]
Don Marshall
He.
- [90:45]
Sean Marchese
He's been thinking since the moment he left Tirjana Pontuna, like, he's been thinking, I shouldn't be doing this. And now he's finally Got the courage to say, you know what? I'm not going any further. This has gone too far. I'm going back. And I think critically, we see that when he does it, many of his people went with him.
- [91:05]
Alan Sisto
Yeah.
- [91:06]
Sean Marchese
And I think sometimes, and that's why I found this incredibly heroic, is that sometimes it just takes stepping up and being a leader and doing the right thing and other people will follow suit.
- [91:17]
Alan Sisto
I agree. And it takes a bravery on his part. You know, we talk about always courage and standing up to failure because that's a direct standing up to.
- [91:25]
Sean Marchese
Yeah.
- [91:25]
Alan Sisto
Fnarfin doesn't say anything, or at least it's not recorded that he said anything to Feanor. But he had to go back and face judgment for his actions.
- [91:35]
Sean Marchese
Yeah, that's true.
- [91:36]
Alan Sisto
And it would be easy at this point to just run away and say, well, you know, in for a penny, in for a pound. You know, we've completely botched our relationship with the Valar. Let's just go. No, he knows the right thing to do is to go back.
- [91:50]
James Tauber
Yeah.
- [91:51]
Alan Sisto
But there may be a price to pay. He doesn't know. Now, of course they come back and they receive the pardon of the Valar and he ends up ruling the remnants of the Noldor. But he doesn't know that's going to happen.
- [92:01]
Sean Marchese
No, he doesn't. And we have to believe it's only because he goes back and he is contrite and he goes back and he faces justice for what he's done. That is why he is worthy of the pardon. It's a bit like Aule. You know, back in Chapter two, we talked about Aule as contrite. And so, you know, the reward is that ERU animates the dwarves, he gives them life. And so we see something like that here where he admits his mistake, he goes back, he asks for forgiveness.
- [92:34]
Alan Sisto
Yeah.
- [92:35]
Sean Marchese
And his reward is to be the king of the Noldor that remain in Valinor.
- [92:41]
Alan Sisto
But of course, not all of his family go with him. And you know, that's got to have been tough.
- [92:46]
Sean Marchese
And that's a sacrifice that is also heroic, isn't it? You know, like he's going to do this even though he knows that his family's not going to go with him. But some of his people are.
- [92:55]
Alan Sisto
Yeah, they're going to stay close to their cousins, the sons of Fingolfin. That's a rough spot to be in. But yeah, you're right. And it just reminds me of all the times that we get a character in the legendarium where we See the opportunity for them to turn around and do the right thing. You know, it's a change in always case. It's. He doesn't have to change his mind. I'm thinking of characters that, that repent, you know, we've talked about like Boromir getting his chance and being one of like the only ones who does, you know, Whereas like Gollum had his chance at the last minute and doesn't. Saruman had a gazillion chances. Sauron had several chances here Finarfin has a chance and he takes it and he does the right thing and it's. And he's rewarded with being set as the. The king of the rest of the Noldor. So, yeah, beautiful. Thank you. What a great reading, man.
- [93:43]
Sean Marchese
Oh, my pleasure. I mean, it was when I hit upon this passage, I just thought, yeah, this just feels. Yeah, this feels like a good passage, you know.
- [93:51]
Alan Sisto
It does, it does.
- [93:53]
Sean Marchese
This is a kind of heroism that I think we don't often celebrate, you know, in a high fantasy book where
- [93:58]
Alan Sisto
we've got, you know, single combat against Morgoth, like you said.
- [94:01]
Sean Marchese
Right. Yeah. Fingolfin standing up to Morga. But it's these little acts of heroism that do inspire and that show us, give us heart and help us do the right thing, even when it's not convenient or even when it's scary to do so.
- [94:15]
Alan Sisto
Yeah. Even when there's a high risk involved for both of these men. Yeah. Great stuff, Sean. And of course, bringing us back to season one is always a fun time, so thank you for that and thanks again as always for joining me on these Tolkien Reading Day episodes. We'll see you again here in June as we cover the chapters on the Istari and the Palantiri to complete season 10 and unfinished tales.
- [94:37]
Sean Marchese
I am so looking forward to that. Alan, thanks for having me back on today and we will be talking soon, my friend.
- [94:43]
Alan Sisto
Absolutely.
- [94:49]
James Tauber
Protein is now at Starbucks and it's never tasted so good. You can add protein cold foam to
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Alan Sisto
your favorite drink or try one of our new protein lattes or matcha.
- [94:59]
James Tauber
Try it today at Starbucks.
- [95:04]
Sara Brown
So good, so good, so good.
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James Tauber
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Sean Marchese
now and they're up to 60% off. Stock up and save on rag and bone.
- [95:13]
Sara Brown
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- [95:16]
Alan Sisto
How did I not know Rack has Adidas? Why do we rack for the hottest deal?
- [95:20]
James Tauber
Dress so much.
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Alan Sisto
Many good brands join the Nordy Club
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Sean Marchese
to unlock exclusive discounts.
- [95:24]
Sara Brown
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- [95:26]
Sean Marchese
Plus buy online and pick up at your favorite rack store for free.
- [95:29]
Sara Brown
Great brands, great prices.
- [95:31]
James Tauber
That's why you rack long.
- [95:34]
Don Marshall
Drive ahead. TikTok shows road trip spots, car hacks, travel playlists, best routes, hidden cafes, scenic stops. Drive smarter, Explore more. Download TikTok now.
- [95:55]
James Tauber
We told you about the amazing PPP community after our earlier break. If you're part of that community and want to join something even more special, come join the Fellowship of the Podcast on Patreon. You'll get to be in the best discord community around, one that includes host hangouts and even live episode recordings.
- [96:11]
Alan Sisto
And your support there is what enables me to work full time doing all of the shows and the Prancing Pony Podcast, Today's Tolkien Times, the Rings of Power Wrap up, and my streaming show the PPP Plays. When you join, you also can get episode postscripts ad free episodes, free merch and more.
- [96:27]
James Tauber
And you can join our Questions after Nightfall episodes or even appear as a guest in the north wing. Go to patreon.com prancingponypod to show your support and join the Fellowship of the Podcast.
- [96:38]
Alan Sisto
And don't forget to rate and review on Apple Podcasts and Spotify. And please recommend us to your friends. Something you can do directly on Spotify now. Well folks, I'm happy to welcome my next guest, who just also happens to be my current co host, the Sage of the south himself, James Tauber. James, we've had quite a run so far with Tal Elmar and the history of Galadriel and Celeborn, and we still have a couple of more episodes to go. Who's your unlikely hero today and what have you chosen to read for us?
- [97:04]
James Tauber
Well, perhaps there's a surprise coming from me. I've chosen something that's non legendarium. I've actually chosen to read from Leaf by Nigel.
- [97:12]
Alan Sisto
Ooh, wise choice because of course he's my favorite non legendarium character and that's my favorite non legendarium work and I
- [97:20]
James Tauber
think really interesting as an unlikely hero.
- [97:23]
Alan Sisto
Yes, I can see exactly where you're going with it now. It's like, oh yeah, why didn't I think of that? All right, fire away.
- [97:31]
James Tauber
This is obviously just an extract, but I think it illustrates the point. Now, the nickel case said a voice, a severe voice, more severe than the Doctor's. What was the matter with him? Said a second voice, a voice that you might have called gentle, though it was not soft. It was a voice of authority, and it sounded at once hopeful and sad. What was the matter with Niggle? His heart was in the right place. Yes, but it did not function properly, said the first voice, and his head was not screwed on tight enough. He hardly ever thought at all. Look at all the time he wasted, not even amusing himself. He never got ready for his journey. He was moderately well off. And yet he arrived here almost destitute and had to be put in the pauper's wing. A bad case, I'm afraid. I think he should stay some time yet. It would not do him any harm. Perhaps, said the second voice, but of course, he is only a little man. He was never meant to be anything very much, and he was never very strong. Let us look at the records. Yes, there are some favourable points, you know, perhaps, said the first voice, but very few that will really bear examination. Well, said the second voice, there are these. He was a painter by nature, in a minor way, of course. Still, a leaf by Nigger has a charm of its own. He took a great deal of pains with leaves just for their own sake, but he never thought that that made him important. There is no note in the records of his pretending even to himself, that it excused his neglect of things ordered by the law. Then he should not have neglected so many, said the first voice. All the same, he did answer a good many calls, a small percentage, mostly of the easier sort. And he called those interruptions. The records are full of the word, together with a lot of complaints and silly imprecations. True, but they looked like interruptions to him, of course. Poor little man. And there is this. He never expected any return, as so many of his sort call it. There is the Parish case, the one that came in later. He was Niggle's neighbour, never did a stroke for him, and seldom showed any gratitude at all. But there is no note in the records that Niggle expected Parish's gratitude. He does not seem to have thought about it. Yes, that is a point, said the first voice, but rather small. I think you will find Niggle often merely forgotten. Things he had to do for Parish he put out of his mind as a nuisance he had done with. Still there is this last report, said the second voice. That wet bicycle ride. I rather lay stress on that. It seems plain that this was a genuine sacrifice. Nigel guessed that he was throwing away his last chance with his picture. And he guessed too that Parish was worrying unnecessarily. I think you put it too strongly, said the first voice, but you have the last word. It is your task, of course, to put the best interpretation on the facts. Sometimes they will bear it. What do you propose? I think it is a Case for a little gentle treatment now, said the second voice. Niggle thought that he had never heard anything so generous as that voice. It made gentle treatment sound like a load of rich gifts and the summons to a king's feast. Then suddenly Niggle felt ashamed to hear that he was considered a case for gentle treatment overwhelmed him and made him blush in the dark. It was like being publicly praised when you and all the audience knew that the praise was not deserved. Niggle hid his blushes in the rough blanket. There was silence. Then the first voice spoke to Niggle, quite close. You have been listening, it said. Yes, said Niggle. Well, what have you to say? Could you tell me about Parish? Said Niggle. I should like to see him again. I hope he's not very ill. Can you cure his leg? It used to give him a wretched time. And please don't worry about him and me. He was a very good neighbor and let me have excellent potatoes, very cheap, which saved me a lot of time. Did he? Said the first voice. I am glad to hear it. There was another silence. Niggle heard the voices receding. Well, I agree, he heard the first voice say in the distance. Let him go on to the next stage. Tomorrow if you like. Niggle woke up to find that his blinds were drawn and his little cell was full of sunshine. He got up and found that some comfortable clothes had been put out for him, not hospital uniform. After breakfast the doctor treated his sore hands, putting some salve on them that healed them at once. He gave Niggle some good advice and a bottle of tonic in case he needed it in the middle of the morning. They gave Niggle a biscuit and a glass of wine, and then they gave him a ticket. You can go to the railway station now, said the doctor. The porter will look after you. Goodbye. Nichols slipped out of the main door and blinked a little. The sun was very bright also. He had expected to walk out into a large town to match the size of the station, but he did not. He was on the top of a hill, green, bare, swept by a keen, invigorating wind. Nobody else was about away. Down under the hill he could see the roof of the station shining. He walked downhill to the station, briskly but without hurry. The porter spotted him at once. This way, he said, and led Niggle to a bay in which there was a very pleasant little local train standing, one coach and a small engine, both very bright, clean, and newly painted. It looked as if this was their first run. Even the track that lay in front of the engine looked new. The Rails shone, the chairs were painted green, and the sleepers gave off a delicious smell of fresh tar in the warm sunshine. The coach was empty. Where does this train go, porter? Asked Niggle. I don't think they've fixed its name yet, said the porter, but you'll find it all right. He shut the door. The train moved off at once. Niggle lay back in his seat. The little engine puffed along in a deep cutting with high green banks roofed with blue sky. It did not seem very long before the engine gave a whistle, the brakes were put on and the train stopped. There was no station and no signboard, only a flight of steps up the green embankment. At the top of the steps there was a wicket gate and a trim hedge. By the gate stood his bicycle. At least it looked like his. And there was a yellow label tied to the bars with Niggle written on it in large black letters. Niggle pushed open the gate, jumped on the bicycle and. And went bowling downhill in the spring sunshine. Before long he found that the path on which he had started had disappeared and the bicycle was rolling along over a marvellous turf. It was green and close, yet he could see every blade distinctly. He seemed to remember having seen or dreamed of that sweep of grass somewhere or other. The curves of the land were familiar somehow. Yes, the ground was becoming level, as it should. And now, of course, it was beginning to rise again. A great green shadow came between him and the sun. Niggle looked up and fell off his bicycle. Before him stood the tree, his tree. Finished, if you could say that, of a tree that was alive, its leaves opening, its branches growing and bending in the wind that Niggle had so often felt or guessed and had so often failed to catch. He gazed at the tree and slowly he lifted his arms and opened them wide. It is a gift, he said. He was referring to his art, and also to the result. But he was using the word quite literally. He went on looking at the tree. All the leaves he had ever laboured at were there as he had imagined them, rather than as he had made them. And there were others that had only budded in his mind, and many that might have budded if only he had had time. Nothing was written on them. They were just exquisite leaves. Yet they were dated, as clear as a calendar. Some of the most beautiful and the most characteristic, the most perfect examples of the Niggle style was seen to have been produced in collaboration with Mr. Parish. There was no other way of putting it. The birds were building in the tree. Astonishing birds. How they sang. They were mating hatching growing wings and flying away, singing into the forest, even while he looked at them. For now he saw that the forest was there too, opening out on either side and marching away into the distance. The mountains were glimmering far away. After a time, Niggle turned towards the forest, not because he was tired of the tree, but he seemed to have got it all clear in his mind now and was aware of it and of its growth even when he was not looking at it. As he walked away, he discovered an odd thing. The forest, of course, was a distant forest. Yet he could approach it, even enter it, without losing that particular charm. He had never before been able to walk into the distance without turning it into mere surroundings. It really added a considerable attraction to walking in the country, because as you walked, new distances opened out, so that you now had double, treble and quadruple distances, doubly trebly and quadruply enchanting. You could go on and on and have a whole country in a garden, or in a picture, if you preferred to call it that. You could go on and on, but not perhaps forever. There were the mountains in the background. They did get nearer very slowly. They did not seem to belong to the picture, or only as a link to something else, a glimpse through the trees of something different, a further stage, another picture. Niggle walked about, but he was not merely pottering, he was looking round carefully. The tree was finished, though not finished with just the other way. About to what it used to be, he thought. But in the forest there were a number of inconclusive regions that still needed work and thought nothing needed altering any longer. Nothing was wrong as far as it had gone, but it needed continuing up to a definite point. Niggle saw the point precisely in each case. He sat down under a very beautiful distant tree, a variation of the great tree, but quite individual, or it would be with a little more attention. And he considered where to begin work and where to end it, and how much time was required. He could not quite work out his scheme. Of course, he said, what I need is parish. There are lots of things about earth, plants and trees that he knows that I don't. This place cannot be left just as my private park. I need help and advice. I ought to have got it sooner. He got up and walked to the place where he had decided to begin work. He took off his coat, then down a little sheltered hollow, hidden from a further view. He saw a man looking round, rather bewildered. He was leaning on a spade, but plainly did not know what to do. Niggle hailed him. Parrish he called. Parrish shouldered his spade and came up to him. He still limped a little. They did not speak, just nodded, as they used to do, passing in the lane. But now they walked about together, arm in arm, without talking. Niggle and Parrish agreed exactly where to make the small house and garden, which seemed to be required. As they worked together, it became plain that Niggle was now the better of the two at ordering his time and getting things done. Oddly enough, it was Niggle who became most absorbed in building and gardening, while Parish often wandered about looking at trees and especially at the tree. One day, Nigger was busy planting a quick set hedge, and Parrish was lying on the grass nearby, looking attentively at a beautiful and shapely little yellow flower growing in the green turf. Niggle had put a lot of them among the roots of his tree long ago. Suddenly, Parrish looked up. His face was glistening in the sun, and he was smiling. This is grand, he said. I oughtn't to be here, really. Thank you for putting in a word for me. Nonsense, said Niggle. I don't remember what I said, but anyway, it was not nearly enough. Oh, yes, it was, said Parish. It got me out a lot sooner, that second voice. You know, he had me sent here. He said you had asked to see me. I owe it to you. No, you owe it to the second voice, Sid Nicholl. We both do.
- [111:54]
Alan Sisto
I'm not crying. Are you crying? I'm not.
- [111:57]
James Tauber
I cried when I was practicing it earlier.
- [111:59]
Alan Sisto
Yeah. That's the thing. It's impossible to get through this story without weeping in so many different moments. And it's just such a moving thing. I just. I catch new stuff every time, and every time I moved. What an image. I'm. I'm. I can't help but picture Tolkien himself, you know, seeing the tree and realizing what a gift it is and being able to see all the things that he tried to finish. Finished.
- [112:24]
James Tauber
Yeah. But also the. It's the relationship with.
- [112:29]
Alan Sisto
Yeah.
- [112:29]
James Tauber
Parish that. That led me to choose this particular part of it.
- [112:33]
Alan Sisto
That's what makes him the hero, isn't it?
- [112:35]
James Tauber
Exactly. Yeah.
- [112:36]
Alan Sisto
Yeah. And that is an unlikely thing.
- [112:39]
James Tauber
And also the. Yeah. The fact that it was not obvious in his lifetime what that relationship was achieving.
- [112:46]
Alan Sisto
No, no. I mean, really. Parrish was kind of a pain in
- [112:51]
James Tauber
the backside in both directions, though. It's really lovely, this kind of.
- [112:56]
Alan Sisto
Yeah. The reversal, sort of, of their roles. Like, now Niggle's the guy who understands the practical side of things and getting things done, and it's Parrish who's able to appreciate the beauty, whereas in their lives it was the other way around. I think the surprise for me in all of this, and one of the unexpected things, I mean, him being an unlikely hero, for sure, but was. Was the idea that he needed Parish, like, that aspect of his life, that relationship in his real life that helped him shape the tree was something that he needed in order to finish this.
- [113:32]
James Tauber
Yep.
- [113:33]
Alan Sisto
I think that was and still is, every time I read the story, a bit of a surprise, like, I need help, and I need it from this person who is not an adversary or an enemy in any stretch, but who is kind of an annoyance, a little bit of a him again sort of thing. And to see this happen here, it's just such a beautiful story. And I moved every time. But what a great choice for unlikely hero.
- [114:01]
James Tauber
Yeah. I mean, I really struggled with choosing something, particularly because I knew what the others had. Had chosen, and there were, you know, a lot of great ones and. And, you know, you immediately think of people as, well, like Sam and so on. It's sort of the most obvious choice of the hero. I wanted to do something a little. Little different. And then it just occurred to me. And then, you know, of course there is the decision of what part to read of this because it's, you know, I'm only reading a quarter of it or 20% of the whole story. But I did want to end on that, that note about Parish being grateful and Niggle saying, you know, we owe it. Actually owe it to the second voice. Maybe the second voice is. Well, maybe not an unlikely hero. I think Niggle's the unlikely hero.
- [114:43]
Alan Sisto
Well, yeah, I mean, I think, especially given the setup.
- [114:45]
James Tauber
So I wanted to frame it again with this. I went back and tried to find a good pickup point that introduces the second voice, but also kind of lays out why it's so unlikely that Niggle would be a hero. All these sort of criticisms in the report that the first voice is reading
- [115:02]
Alan Sisto
imprecations, and he called them interruptions.
- [115:05]
James Tauber
Exactly. Yeah.
- [115:05]
Alan Sisto
And that's true. That's exactly the truth. He did complain about it. He did talk about, oh, I'm being interrupted again. And, you know, he doesn't appreciate any of this. And.
- [115:14]
James Tauber
But I love. I love the fact that the voices refer to those as calls.
- [115:18]
Alan Sisto
Yes. In a capital C. Yep.
- [115:21]
James Tauber
And it turns out they were the important parts.
- [115:23]
Alan Sisto
They were.
- [115:24]
James Tauber
And Niggle, even though didn't realize it at the time, and we don't realize, necessarily realize it as readers the first time around, just how important they Were for both of them especially that.
- [115:34]
Alan Sisto
What Bicycle ride. You know, and that moment in the book is. In the story is. Well, it's important enough to me that when. When I saw that Matej had done.
- [115:43]
James Tauber
Oh, yes.
- [115:43]
Alan Sisto
The artwork for it, I actually bought the original.
- [115:46]
James Tauber
Yeah, I can see it in the background there.
- [115:49]
Alan Sisto
Yeah, Yeah. I haven't put up his. The second kind of the mirror end of that is the one in the moment that you described where the bicycle's on the green hillside and he's looking up at the tree and his arms are wide. It's a beautiful, beautiful illustration. I have that. Not the original this time, but a print. And I just haven't got a chance to put it up yet. But it's a perfect match that. What Bicycle ride is such a moment in the story. Yeah, you're right. I mean, in a way, the second voice is sort of a likely hero, but it's Niggle himself who's the unlikely hero.
- [116:22]
James Tauber
Yeah.
- [116:23]
Alan Sisto
Fantastic. And. And, folks, if. If you have never read that story as a whole, you really owe it to yourself to do so. It is a fantastic work. You can find it in Tales of the Perilous Realm. You can find it in. What's this smaller word? The Talking Reader?
- [116:39]
James Tauber
Tree and leaf.
- [116:40]
Alan Sisto
Tree and leaf.
- [116:41]
James Tauber
That's the other one, is the original one.
- [116:43]
Alan Sisto
That's what was originally published. Yeah. An incredible, powerful, powerful reading. So thank you for that.
- [116:50]
James Tauber
And if people aren't aware, but, you know, you may not have necessarily picked up, Alan kind of hinted at it. It's extremely autobiographical.
- [116:56]
Alan Sisto
Oh, it is, yeah.
- [116:58]
James Tauber
Tolkien reflecting on. Yeah, really? Tolkien reflecting on his own life.
- [117:02]
Alan Sisto
This one's so allegorical that, I mean, it's one of those things where, I know we always read in the prologue the Lord of the Rings. I cordially dislike allegory, except that I'm really dang good at it. He might as well say, because he is. He's brilliant at it. When he. When he does use it, he uses it so well. I think of the story about the tower with the Beowulf monsters and the critics thing, and it's just. He's so good with allegory. But this is such a beautiful one. Oh, man. Well, thank you. I mean, I'm not saying farewell to you. I'm just saying thank you for joining us here and doing this with me. Obviously, I'm looking forward to getting back to Galadriel and Celeborn with you over the next couple of episodes, and then either next season or the season after when we gets the Fall of Gondola and the Great Tales.
- [117:47]
James Tauber
Yeah.
- [117:47]
Alan Sisto
And then, of course, we'll get to see more of each other this fall when Rings of Power comes out.
- [117:51]
James Tauber
Yeah, that's. That's going to be interesting.
- [117:53]
Alan Sisto
It's going to be wild. Okay.
- [117:56]
James Tauber
Well, it's been great to hear from Don, Matt, Sara and Sean, but we can't always have such high standards. Alan, who is your unlikely hero, and what have you selected for today's Talking Reading Day?
- [118:07]
Alan Sisto
Clearly not you, sir. No, you know, the thing is, there are honestly so many wonderful, unlikely heroes in the Legendarium. And as you've demonstrated outside of the legendarium as well, often it feels like they outnumber the likely heroes. You know, you look at somebody like an Aragorn or a Gandalf, and of course, they're going to be heroes. But the unlikely heroes pop up all over the place. And the one that came to mind for me this time, and really, if you'd asked me on a different day, it might have been somebody else. But when this topic was announced was an ordinary soldier, a plain man of arms of the Third Company of the Citadel. And I'm speaking, of course, of Baragon. There's a lot of readings that involve him, and so I can't read all of them. So my texts are going to jump forward here and there, and I'll try to explain when that happens. But let's start with meeting him for the very first time in Book five, Chapter one. Minas Tirith. Presently, Pippin noticed a man clad in black and white coming along the narrow street from the center of the Citadel towards him. Pippin felt lonely and made up his mind to speak as the man passed. But he had no need. The man came straight up to him. You are Peregrine the Halfling, he said. I am told that you have been sworn to the service of the Lord and of the city. Welcome. He held out his hand, and Pippin took it. I am named Beregond, son of Barinor. I have no duty this morning. I have been sent to you to teach you the passwords and to tell you some of the many things that no doubt you will wish to know. And for my part, I would learn of you also, of course. They talk for a long time about the coming danger and the nature of the war. And then a winged Nazgul flies overhead and their hearts are both darkened. But then suddenly, Pippin looked up and saw that the sun was still shining and the banners still streaming in the breeze. He shook himself. It is past, he said. No My heart will not yet despair. Gandalf fell and has returned and is with us. We may stand, if only on one leg or at least be left still upon our knees. Rightly said. Cried Beregond, rising and striding to and fro. Nay, though all things must come utterly to an end in time Gondor shall not perish yet. Not though the walls be taken by a reckless foe that will build a hill of carrion before them. There are still other fastnesses and secret ways of escape into the mountains. Hope and memory shall live still in some hidden valley where the grass is green. And after this optimism he then speaks highly of his lord and captain, Faramir. He is bold, more bold than many deemed. For in these days men are slow to believe that a captain can be wise and learned in the scrolls of lore and song as he is and yet a man of hardihood and swift judgment in the field. But such is Faramir, less reckless and eager than Boromir but not less resolute. Yet what indeed can he do? We cannot assault the mountains of yonder realm. Our reach is shortened and we cannot strike till some foe comes within it. Then our hand must be heavy. He smote the hilt of his sword. Pippin looked at him, tall and proud and noble as all the men that he had yet seen in that land. And with a glitter in his eye as he thought of the battle moments later, Pippin asks him if he might be able to join Beregond's company. And he even asks if he's the captain. Nay, nay. Beregonde laughed. I am no captain. Neither office, nor rank, nor lordship have I being but a plain man of arms of the Third Company of the Citadel. Yet Master Peregrine, to be only a man of arms of the guard of the tower of Gondor is held worthy in the city. And such men have honor in the land. Later, in Chapter four, the Siege of Gondor, Pippin and Beregond are speaking again. When suddenly as they talked, they were stricken dumb. Frozen, as it were to listening stones. Pippin cowered down with his hands pressed to his ears. But Beregond, who had been looking out from the battlement as he spoke of Faramir, remained there, stiffened, staring out with starting eyes. Pippin knew the shuddering cry that he had heard. It was the same that he had heard long ago in the Marish of the Shire. But now it was grown in power and hatred, piercing the heart with a poisonous despair. At last Beregond spoke with an effort. They have come. He said. Take courage and look. There are fell things below. The fell thing Beregond speaks of is the retreat to Faramir while being hounded by winged Nazgul. Faramir. The Lord Faramir. It is his call. Cried Beregond. Brave heart, but how can you win to the gate if these foul Hell hawks have other weapons than fear? But look, they hold on. They will make the gate.
- [123:25]
Sean Marchese
No.
- [123:26]
Alan Sisto
The horses are running mad.
- [123:27]
Sean Marchese
Look.
- [123:27]
Alan Sisto
The men are thrown. They are running on foot. No one is still up, but he rides back to the others. That will be the captain. He can master both beasts and men. There. One of the foul things is stooping on him. Help. Help. Will no one go out to him? Faramir. With that, Beregond sprang away and ran off into the gloom, ashamed of his terror. While Beregond of the guard thought first of the captain whom he loved, Pippin got up and peered out. Later on, much later on, as Denethor prepares to immolate himself and Faramir, Pippin leaves and looks for Gandalf to save Faramir. He gets to the Citadel and finds Beregond. Whither do you run, Master Peregrine? He cried. To find Mithrandir. Pippin answered. The lord's errands are urgent and should not be hindered by me, said Beregond. But tell me quickly, if you may, what goes forward? Whither has my lord gone? I have just come on duty. But I heard that he passed towards the closed door and men were bearing Faramir before him. Yes, said Pippin. To the silent street, Beregond bowed his head to hide his tears. They said that he was dying. He sighed. And now he is dead. No, said Pippin, not yet. And even now his death might be prevented, I think. But the Lord of the city, Beregond has fallen. Before his city is taken, he is fey and dangerous. Quickly he told of Denethor's strange words and deeds. I must find Gandalf at once. Then you must go down to the battle. I know the Lord has given me leave. But, Beregond, if you can do something to stop any dreadful thing happening. The Lord does not permit those who wear the black and silver to leave their post for any cause save at his own command. Well, you must choose between orders and the life of Faramir, said Pippin. And as for orders, I think you have a madman to deal with. Not a lord. I must run. I will return if I can. Eventually Pippin finds Gandalf and tells him what's happening. And then they make their way back up to the citadel. At the gate of the Citadel, they found no guard. Then Beregond has gone, said Pippinhor hopefully. They turned away and hastened along the road to the closed door. It stood wide open, and the porter lay before it. He was slain, and his key had been taken. Work of the enemy, said Gandalf. Such deeds he loves, friend at war with friend, loyalty divided in confusion of hearts. And then when they reach the house of the stewards on Roth Dinan it's total chaos. Stay, stay. Cried Gandalf springing forward to the stone stair before the door. Stay this madness. For there were the servants of Denethor with swords and torches in their hands but alone in the porch. Upon the topmost step stood Beregond clad in the black and silver of the guard. And he held the door against them. Two of them had already fallen to his sword staining the hallows with their blood. And the others cursed him calling him outlaw and traitor to his master. Even as Gandalf and Pippin ran forward they heard from within the House of the Dead the voice of Denethor crying, haste, haste. Do as I have bidden. Slay me this renegade. Or must I do so myself? Thereupon the door which Beregond held shut with his left hand was wrenched open and there behind him stood the Lord of the city tall and fell. A light like flame was in his eyes, and he held a drawn sword. Thankfully, Gandalf intervenes. Faramir and Beregond are saved. And then Denethor dies. So passes Denethor, son of Ectharion, said Gandalf. Then he turned to Beregond and the Lord's servants that stood there aghast. And so pass also the days of Gondor that you have known. For good or evil, they are ended. Ill deeds have been done here. But let now all enmity that lies between you be put away. For it was contrived by the enemy and works his will. You have been caught in a net of warring duties that you did not weave. But think you servants of the Lord blind in your obedience that but for the treason of Beregond Faramir, captain of the White Tower would now also be burned. Bear away from this unhappy place your comrades who have fallen and we will bear Faramir, steward of Gondor to a place where he can sleep in peace or die, if that be his doom. Later. At length they came Back to the steward's door. And Beregond looked with grief at the porter. This deed I shall ever rue, he said, but madness of haste was on me, and he would not listen but drew sword against me. Then, taking the key that he had wrested from the slain man he closed the door and locked it. This should now be given to the Lord Faramir, he said. The Prince of Dol Amroth is in command in the absence of the Lord, said Gandalf. But since he is not here, I must take this on myself. I bid you keep the key and guard it until the city is set in order again. After getting Faramir to the Houses of healing Gandalf says, but you, Beregond, should return to the Citadel and tell the chief of the guard there what has befallen. It will be his duty, I fear, to withdraw you from the guard. But say to him that if I may give him counsel you should be sent to the Houses of healing to be the guard and servant of your captain and to be at his side when he awakes if that shall ever be again. For by you he was saved from the fire. One other thing. Before we reach the end and Beregond's fate is determined he ends up going with Aragorn's forces to Mordor. In fact, we read that Pippin stood beside Beregond in the front rank of Gondor with Imrahil's men. Even so, he must still answer for his deeds. After the coronation of Elessar we read about the king's pardoning of the Easterlings freeing the slaves of Mordor. And more last, the captain of the guard brought to him Beregond to be judged. And the king said to Beregond, Beregond by your sword. Blood was spilled in the Hallows, or that is forbidden. Also you left your post without leave of lord or of captain. For these things of old, death was the penalty. Now, therefore, I must pronounce your doom. All penalty is remitted for your valor in battle and still more, because all that you did was for the love of the Lord Faramir. Nonetheless, you must leave the guard of the Citadel and you must go forth from the city of Minas Tirith. Then the blood left Beregond's face and he was stricken to the heart and bowed his head. But the king said, so it must be for you are appointed to the White Company the guard of Faramir, Prince of Ithilien. And you shall be its captain and dwell in Amon Arnen, in honor and peace and in the service of him for whom you risked all to save him from death. And then Beregond, perceiving the mercy and justice of the king, was glad and kneeling, kissed his hand and departed in joy and content. And I'm not crying again.
- [131:48]
James Tauber
I was gonna say you got me back and I'm in tears now. Man, I love that whole arc. It's just. I mean, it's a wonderful story just in itself. It is just following the story of Beregond and the way it's set up as this sort of initially just this sort of idolizing. You know, he's just an ordinary soldier who's idolizing his.
- [132:11]
Alan Sisto
He's hard not to. Yeah, he's looking up to his captain and just. He could do no wrong sort of guy.
- [132:16]
James Tauber
But then when the. When the rubber hits the road, you actually see just how much he's willing to sacrifice for that love.
- [132:23]
Alan Sisto
And that's the thing. Like, he knows. There's a theme of this throughout the text. There's a few other examples of people disobeying the rules in order to do what they know and what they believe to be the right thing. And they always do it knowing that there may still be a cost.
- [132:40]
James Tauber
Yeah.
- [132:41]
Alan Sisto
Beregond just doesn't. Not only was Denethor about to run him through from behind, if Gandalf hadn't intervened in the houses of the dead, he very well could have been imprisoned or killed.
- [132:53]
James Tauber
I mean, we're told it was the just thing. I mean, he was treason.
- [132:56]
Alan Sisto
Not only did you spill blood in the Hallows, you left your post at a time of war without leave. That's serious stuff.
- [133:03]
James Tauber
Straight out referred to as treason.
- [133:05]
Alan Sisto
Yeah, 100%.
- [133:07]
James Tauber
And so there's this wonderful, like, Wisdom of Solomon moment from Aragorn.
- [133:12]
Alan Sisto
He is.
- [133:13]
James Tauber
Which is like, I cannot let you be. Continue in this position.
- [133:18]
Alan Sisto
No. But instead, you're going to be appointed. I love this. You get to be the captain of Faramir's guard. You've demonstrated such devotion, such love, such willingness to sacrifice. And so often. I know I put those two almost as separate things, but in Tolkien, in particular, in the Lord of the Rings, love and a willingness to sacrifice are essentially synonymous. And that's what happens here. You know, he is willing to lay down his own life to save that of Faramir.
- [133:48]
James Tauber
Yeah.
- [133:49]
Alan Sisto
And it's breathtaking. And it's like you said, the Ark, when you read it. Like, the way I put it together here, where you kind of skip all the in betweens. You're like, wow, this story hits even harder.
- [134:01]
Sean Marchese
Yeah.
- [134:01]
Alan Sisto
You know, because you start to see those little moments of admiration for Barragan or for Faramir that Barragan has.
- [134:07]
James Tauber
Yeah.
- [134:08]
Alan Sisto
That moment, I think, when the Nazgul fly overhead. And even Pippen is like, ashamed of his own fear as. As Baragon runs down to try to save Faramir. Like, like you're gonna get there in time, bro. Right, right.
- [134:21]
James Tauber
It doesn't stop him trying, but he
- [134:22]
Alan Sisto
is going to try to get down there and save Faramir. And I just. It's. It's pure and it's. In a way, I'm reminded of the way Sam loves Frodo. He just looks up to him so much and sees in him somebody that is worthy of the sacrifice and the honor and whatever it takes.
- [134:45]
James Tauber
Yep.
- [134:46]
Alan Sisto
And it's the same kind of thing here. It's just beautiful. And yeah, a totally unlikely hero because he is just an ordinary guy.
- [134:54]
James Tauber
Yeah.
- [134:55]
Alan Sisto
It's fantastic. So, yeah, first one that came to my mind today for sure.
- [134:59]
James Tauber
Yep.
- [135:00]
Alan Sisto
Fun stuff, folks. Thank you for joining us for another episode of the Prancing Pony podcast. Please join us again next week when we've had one lsr. Yes, but what about second lsr?
- [135:11]
James Tauber
I don't think they know about second lsr, Pip.
- [135:13]
Alan Sisto
Well, they'll find out about it next week.
- [135:16]
James Tauber
They sure will. Alan and I want to thank the members of team PPP editor Jordan Reynnells, Barliman, Becca Davis, social media manager Casey Hilsey event and Patreon community coordinator Katie McKenna, graphic artist Megan Collins, video editor Yonatan Lazens and website guru Phil Dane.
- [135:32]
Alan Sisto
Please take a minute to check out the prancingponypodcast.com that's where you'll find show notes, outtakes, Prancing, Prancing Pony ponderings, and our fully revamped PPP merch store where you can get all sorts of cool PPP merch featuring the incredible chapter art that Megan's been doing for us for nearly four seasons.
- [135:48]
James Tauber
Now, we're all about the books here at the Prancing Pony Podcast, so be sure to check out our library page. We try to make sure that any book we've mentioned on the show is linked there for you to purchase. We do get a small amount of compensation when you make your purchase, so thank you for that.
- [136:01]
Alan Sisto
Indeed. And we also want to thank our patrons at the Kirdan's contribution tier. I'll start with Demay in Alaska, Chad in Texas, Lance in New Jersey. Joseph in Michigan, Kathy from North Carolina, Brian in the UK, Jerry from Washington, Irwin from the Netherlands, Ben in Minnesota, Anthony in Texas, Zaksu in Illinois, Joshua in Massachusetts, Lucy in Texas, Erica in Texas, James in Massachusetts and Ann in Kentucky.
- [136:26]
James Tauber
There's also Sean in New Jersey, Mason in in California, Maureen from Massachusetts, Olivia in London, Robert in Arizona, Nick in Wisconsin, Lewis in South Carolina, Thomas in Germany, Craig in California, Kevin in Massachusetts, Joe in Maryland, D Scott in California, Jeffrey in Michigan, Paul in Colorado, David from Connecticut and Teresa from Texas. Thank you all so very much for your support indeed.
- [136:54]
Alan Sisto
Thank you.
- [136:54]
James Tauber
Thank you. Make sure you don't miss any episodes of the Prancing Pony Podcast. Subscribe now through Spotify, Apple Podcasts, Amazon Music, or your favorite podcast app.
- [137:03]
Alan Sisto
And one last thing. As always, don't forget to send your thoughts, comments, and most of all, who your unlikely heroes are to barlman@the prancingponypodcast.com
- [137:12]
James Tauber
Barliman does have a lot of mail to sort through, though, so we'll try to get to you just as soon as we're able.
- [137:17]
Alan Sisto
As always, this has been far too short a time to spend among such excellent and admirable listeners.
- [137:23]
James Tauber
But until next time, may you rekindle hearts in a world that grows chill.
- [137:47]
Alan Sisto
Health starts with what's on your plate. Because a healthy plate is more than a meal.
- [137:51]
James Tauber
It's a foundation.
- [137:52]
Alan Sisto
Just as food draws life from deep roots in the earth, families thrive from the support of healthy food.
- [137:57]
James Tauber
When families can count on nutritious meals, lives take root.
- [138:01]
Sean Marchese
Kids take root in school, parents take root at work.
- [138:04]
Alan Sisto
Seniors take root in their communities.
- [138:06]
James Tauber
A healthy meal isn't just nourishment, it's stability and hope.
- [138:09]
Alan Sisto
With your support, we can put food food at the center of better health for everyone.
- [138:13]
James Tauber
Give now@feedingamerica.org health a great playlist, a great cocktail.
- [138:21]
Alan Sisto
Together, they make the moment mellow.
- [138:23]
Sara Brown
Tonight, pour an unmistakable Manhattan with the
- [138:26]
Don Marshall
balanced flavor of Four Roses, Single Barrel
- [138:28]
Sara Brown
and Antika Formula Vermouth.
- [138:30]
Alan Sisto
It's not just a good cocktail, it's unmistakable.
- [138:33]
Sara Brown
Get the full recipe@fourrosesbourbon.com.