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PDB Situation Report | August 1st, 2025: Raymond Ibrahim’s Warning About Islam & Pressure Mounts On Israel
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- [00:12]
Mike Baker
Welcome to the PDP Situation Report. I'm Mike Baker, your eyes and ears on the world stage. All right, let's get briefed. First up, what drives the violence of groups like Hamas, Hezbollah and the Iranian Regiment? Well, today we're stepping back a bit from the headlines to look at the ideology behind the militancy with expert insight from Raymond Ibrahim later in the show. Pressure is mounting on Israel to bring the war in Gaza to an end as multiple Western nations are now saying that they're planning to formally recognize a Palestinian state in the coming months. We'll be joined by Jonathan Schanzer of the foundation for Defense of Democracies for more on that. But first, today's Situation Report Spotlight. Here on the pdb, we cover the actions of groups like Hamas, Hezbollah and the Iranian regime all the time. They're not just political actors. They're driven by a specific worldview rooted, of course, in Islamic ideology. But what is it about that ideology that fuels such militancy? What do these groups actually believe? And how does that belief system shape their strategies, their goals and, and their violence? Well, this is a bit of a departure from our usual focus on hard news and day to day headlines. But to understand the conflicts that we cover. Right. We thought it was critical to understand the ideas driving them. My next guest has spent years studying exactly that. Raymond Ibrahim is an expert on Islamic history and ideology and a former Arabic language specialist at the Library of Congress. He's best known for his 2007 book the Al Qaeda Reader, which, which offers a revealing translation and analysis of the political and religious writings of Osama bin Laden and Amon Al Zawahiri. You can also find more of his work on his YouTube channel at the Holy War Channel. Raymond, thanks very much for being here with us on the Situation report. We appreciate your time.
- [02:06]
Raymond Ibrahim
Yeah, my pleasure, Mike. Good to be with you.
- [02:08]
Mike Baker
I want to start with a question that may seem odd, but it's for the benefit of our, of our viewers. If you had a minute, if you got in an elevator and you had one minute, based on all your, your experience and all your work studying Islamic history and ideology, and you had that one minute ride in an elevator and you had one person with you in there, what is it that you'd want to tell them about what you've learned, what you've studied, what you think.
- [02:39]
Raymond Ibrahim
I'd want to tell them? I guess what I assume they don't know. And I'm also assuming they're non Muslim and I think I'd want them to know that this particular religion is unlike other religions. It's very political, it's very, in a word, tribal. It's us against them. You as a non believer are de facto enemy. And how they approach you as the enemy, there's different categories, different levels, but none of it is anything near or remote to what Western, you know, standards of religious freedom come approximate. So basically, you know, you, it could be from fighting you to killing you to enslaving you to now's not the time and we can be your friend and smile on your face, but we have to do it later. And that's just in a nutshell. That's the doctrine, that's the history, that's the, you know, current situation of Islam, despite what they, what everyone says, mostly non Muslims actually.
- [03:37]
Mike Baker
So, I mean, I, I want to expand on that if I could. I guess other religions, not just Islam. But you look at Christianity, right? You know, there have been a lot of wars fought in the name of, of a Christian God, right? And a lot of violence that's been perpetrated in the name of that religion. So is it, is it that there is more within Islam that it's, it's more prone to violence because of its doctrine and beliefs, or. I, I, you see what I'm saying? I'm struggling to ask the question here.
- [04:18]
Raymond Ibrahim
Yeah, I understand your, yeah, I mean, the point you're raising has been raised countless times. That's one of the main responses. I would argue that Christianity, okay, there's been wars in the name of Christianity. And you know, when you say that immediately, everyone I think is thinking of crusades and we need to actually talk directly about that because that's the opposite case. It's actually was a defensive war. But overall, the ultimate point that I'm trying to say is, well, I'm not interested if a person today goes and shoots up a mosque and says, I'm doing it for Jesus. What I'm interested in is can they actually trace it doctrinally and justify it? And the bottom line is a Christian can't justify it, Muslims can't, because Islam, the Prophet, all the jurists and the, it's, we're too, it's too long to get into the jurisprudence of Islam. But they're all agreed to what I had said, which is that the kefir, the infidel, the non Muslim is the de facto enemy who must one way or another be fought, subjugated. Okay, it's all over in the Quran. It's all over in their, Again, we can get into Their technical names, the Hadith and the Tafsir, etc. So it's all part of the religion. So to me, that's very much different than saying a Buddhist decides to blow himself up and kill people and, you know, he screams Buddha. Yeah, he can do that, but that doesn't, he can't really justify it. And the same with Christianity, whereas Islam abundantly justifies it. And as far as the, you know, the Crusades, because I think what you had just said, which is, you know, you know, there's been violence and war in the name of Jesus and Christ.
- [05:52]
Mike Baker
Yeah.
- [05:53]
Raymond Ibrahim
And that's usually the Crusade, but those are so, so much misunderstood that, you know, so much of my life work has become correcting them. So people understand exactly what the Crusades were, which is they were completely defensive. These were defensive wars. So the best you can say is that they accorded with just war theory, which was and should still be a Christian thing, at least in the pre modern medieval era. Just war was taken for granted. You can always fight if it's in defense. And the crusaders were actually defending and trying to liberate formerly conquered Christian regions, which is the entire Middle east and the Holy Land, of course, and the persecution of Christians. So again, even the, even the Crusade age, which is sort of, you know, the creme de la creme of an example of evil Christians misusing Christ's name, was perfectly done in accordance with just war. And it's nowhere near what we're talking about, which is the sort of offensive war, jihadist imperative, which is part and parcel of Islam.
- [06:53]
Mike Baker
So the, the wording that's, that's developed over the recent times, in recent times, I'd, you know, I'd go back to, let's, as a convenient point, let's go to 9, 11. Right. But you know, typically you, you get this, these phrases, radical Islamists, radical Islamic group. Right. Whether they're referring to Al Qaeda or Islamic Jihad or whomever, isis. So is that a, is that a misnomer? Is that they're, it's not so much that they're radical, they're just, they're following early doctrine or ideology.
- [07:29]
Raymond Ibrahim
Yeah, I, on the one hand, I agree there needs to be a distinction that I can't, we can't just like label every single Muslim under one thing. On the other hand, I don't think the current distinction, moderate and radical, does it justice. Because what it, it doesn't make sense. It implies the correct way to look at it is the observant Muslim is a radical and a Moderate Muslim, what we call a moderate Muslim is essentially a lackadaisical, indifferent Muslim who's living according to 21st century lifestyle. And whatever parts of Islam fit, he'll allow them. And whichever parts don't fit, he won't necessarily allow them. So I think that is happening in the world. And it wouldn't be correct to say every single Muslim believes in Jihad just like it would be correct, say every single Christian believes in any particular Christian tenet. So, yeah, the distinction is necessary, but it's also the, what's wrong with the distinction is they're implying that the guys who do the jihad are somehow not following correct Islam and that's false. They are following correct doctrinal, historic Islam. They're following it more than the moderate Muslim is, you know, more is the pity. But yeah, so that's the distinction.
- [08:40]
Mike Baker
Okay, I think that's really interesting. And the point that you make, I think is probably universally understood, which is that regardless of the religion, you, you always have, you have the element that's zealous, right? That, that, that follows and believes to the core, the whatever the doctrine of that religion is. And then, yeah, you got the, frankly, you got the majority who pick and choose for convenience purposes, you know, what to do, what to follow, what to believe. You know, I guess I followed the latter category. Yeah.
- [09:10]
Raymond Ibrahim
And the interesting, I think, thing about this is if I can, if I may just end it, because I think you'll, you'll like this particular aspect. But when you look at a fundamental Christian, they're the opposite of a Muslim. They're supposed to be kind and turning, you know, friendly and loving and, and that's because they are following the scriptures so closely. But when the Muslims follow their scriptures so closely, and most Westerners don't know that, but their scriptures are full of pure intolerance, pure violence, pure what we would call today toxic masculinity, patriarchy, misogyny, all of that is in there. So, you know, if you let, if your life is all about trying to emulate what's written the way, let's say a Christian is trying to follow the, you know, the Bible, it's ironic because you're going to have antithetical results which reflect the antithetical nature of the two scriptures.
- [10:01]
Mike Baker
So let me ask you this, this again sound like a simplistic question. I realize that. But if you have an observant Muslim, as you call him, at his core, this is again, maybe too simplistic at his core. What does he believe?
- [10:21]
Raymond Ibrahim
Well, if you want to at least call yourself Muslim. They're supposed to believe what's called the five pillars of Islam. And these are like the most basic fundamental beliefs. One is of course, that there's only one God and Muhammad is his Prophet, meaning that, you know, whatever revelation Muhammad gave, that's what we follow, which is the Quran, the Hadith, the S, etc, and then there's the prayer. You have to pray five times. There's the fasting, there's zakat, which is which they translate as alms. And here's another perfect example. So the zakat and there's pilgrimage in to Mecca. But the zakat, just to give you an idea, it's supposed to be alms. That's how if you speak to someone and they translate it to you, they'll tell you, oh, it's, look at the good side of Islam. They give charity, which is true, but most people don't know that actually in according to Islamic law, this charity can never go to a non Muslim again, underscoring that the non Muslim is the enemy. Why would I give him money? Unless it's in the context of trying to cajole him and win him over to Islam. Then you can sort of, you know, give money and make contributions. But again, so I'm just showing you how even this one aspect that people think is a good aspect itself is reflective of the intolerance and divisiveness that I was mentioning in Islam.
- [11:33]
Mike Baker
Okay, no, that's. That's actually fascinating, Raymond. A long list of additional questions, but we have to take a quick break, so if you could stay right where you are. We'll be right back shortly with Raymond Ibrahim and more of the PDB situation report. Don't move. Hey, Mike Baker here. Well, in case you didn't notice, we are deep into the dog days of summer. Right when it's, well, it's too hot to think. But you know what it isn't too hard for? It's never too hot to Grill. @tribe.com PDB Tritails Beat is helping you push through the heat with a freezer full of ranch raised Black Angus beef. I got to tell you something, this company is terrific and the beef is outstanding. Order now and get two free flatiron steaks just for being one of the smart ones who skip the shrink wrapped chew toys at the grocery store. Real beef, real ranchers, no middlemen, no fluff. Try beef.com/pdb. Oh, what you eating? The new banana split cookie from AM.
- [12:32]
Jonathan Schanzer
Pm All freshly baked with real butter.
- [12:35]
Mike Baker
With banana, chocolate and strawberry flavors.
- [12:37]
Raymond Ibrahim
Wow, that sounds, sounds amazing.
- [12:38]
Mike Baker
Can I have a bite? I'm sorry, but no. But you can't split the banana.
- [12:42]
Raymond Ibrahim
Split?
- [12:43]
Mike Baker
Not even a little? Not even a crumb.
- [12:44]
Raymond Ibrahim
What if.
- [12:45]
Mike Baker
No, please. Mine.
- [12:48]
Raymond Ibrahim
When it's too legit to split.
- [12:50]
Mike Baker
That's cravinience. Get a 3 pack for 99 cents with our app ampm. Too much good stuff.
- [12:55]
Raymond Ibrahim
Plus tax where applicable.
- [12:56]
Mike Baker
Prices and participation may vary. Terms and conditions apply. Hey, I'm Caitlin Becker, the host of the New York Post Cast and I've got exactly what you need to start your weekdays. Every morning I'll bring you the stories that matter, plus the news people actually talk about the juicy details in the worlds of politics, business, pop culture and everything in between. It's what you want from the New York Post wrapped up in one snappy show. Ask your smart speaker to play the NYPostcast podcast, listen and subscribe on Amazon Music, Apple Podcasts, Spotify or wherever you get your podcasts. Welcome back to the PDP Situation Report. And joining me once again is Raymond Ibrahim. You can find more of his work on, at the Holy War channel that's on YouTube. Raymond, thank you very much for sticking around. I, I want to pick up our conversation and again, this, this, this, it probably is a very open ended question with a lot of running room here, but the progressive left, it seems, maybe I'm going to phrase this wrong but seems enamored with Islam and, and I mean I've had conversations with a variety of, of fairly hard left liberals and you know, they espouse this idea that Islam is, is, you know, the religion of peace. And they're very, they, they just seem unaware perhaps of the, the actual doctrine. And in particular, I suppose you could, you could look at recent protests over Israel's actions in Gaza. And I actually walked through a protest in New York at one point and there was a Queers for Palestine side that was being held up. And I thought, well, that's an unusual thought. What is it about? Is, is it, is it just a clever disinformation campaign on the part of, of some of the Muslim community?
- [14:56]
Raymond Ibrahim
No, actually I would say the Muslim community is by and large very vocal and upfront about its, its beliefs. Of course you have, you have the, the ones who are engaged in what's known in Arabic as, which is basically, yeah, diplomatic outreach, if you want to call it that way, that conceals their true intent. But you know, I'll give you a perfect example somewhere in, it's called Ham Track, I think Michigan. And you know, it's now got the law. The city, it has more Muslims. More than 50 of the population is Muslim. Okay? And apparently the left as you call them, were very supportive of the immigrant Muslim incoming community. And they, you know, always cater to them in any way, shape or form. And then once the city council became part of Muslim majority, they canceled all the homosexual stuff, the so called pride stuff. And the left felt betrayed and they even, you know, well, we helped you out. How could you do this to us? So there's definitely that dynamic, dynamic always at work, which is you have foolish leftists doing whatever they can to empower this particular creed that actually hates them and very openly says it hates them. And when they come to power they, it shows it hates them. Okay? So I think ultimately this, you know, what we call the left is what, what why they do this or why they would cater to Islam. It's more a reflection of, you know, the old maxim, you know, the enemy of my enemy is my friend. And they just ultimately hate Western civilization. They hate Christianity, they hate morality. So they're gonna try to buttress it with anything they can. And why not? Why, why not all of that's original enemy, which is Islam from a historic point of view. So I think that's really the what's going on here. They just to despite, you know, everything that's traditional or Christian or moral, we are going to help the, you know, the Muslims that everyone hates because they're Islamophobes, etc. Okay, but you know, as you say, gays for Palestine, are they not aware that, you know, according to Islamic law, Muslim homosexuals get stoned? That's why they throw them off, off the roof because that's an approximation of stoning, because you fall on the pavement and you die by the stone. That's the logic. It's based on the Sodom and Gomorrah idea. So. Yeah, and, but I mean, I have to also get this off my chest. I hate the word the left because it really legitimizes something that should not be legitimized. When we say left, we have in our mind some constructs. Right, middle, left. Middle is supposedly objective. Right is conservative, left is liberal. But what we're talking about now is, is pure insanity. Okay? The left is, is for example, says there's no genders or there's a thousand genders. That sort of thing should not be given respectability by being called left because it actually puts it on a political spectrum. It needs to be called for what it is, insanity, stupidity, or even worse. And so I Think once we do that, because there's also a war on words. And when we use these words, we actually legitimize and play their game, even inadvertently. So I think we should also be cognizant of how we start labeling things.
- [18:13]
Mike Baker
I take your point. Yeah. And I've never, I, I, I guess I've fallen into that trap. A lot of people have.
- [18:19]
Raymond Ibrahim
I use it too, all the time. I know. I mean, what else, what else am I going to say or. That's the only word people use actually.
- [18:24]
Mike Baker
Well, that's, that's the problem. Yeah, it's convenient. It moves the conversation along because people understand the phrasing, I suppose. But yeah, let me, let me ask you about this. The concept of expansion, the concept of, of recruitment, of proselytizing, of, of, of converting. Is that baked into the ideology? I mean, so, and, and, and to what degree is that, you know, an element of, if you look at Europe, for example, I'm a dual British citizen, US Citizen. And you know, in, in London, for example, there's this, there's a fair amount of, of, of back and forth right now over the degree to which their open policies over the years have created an atmosphere. Right. Where London, you know, in the words of a lot of people, London's not London anymore, or the UK is not the UK or France or whatever. But you know, and so that's led to sort of this, this. Yeah, this leds to the concept of. Well, but it's, it's, it's part and parcel of the plan. They're, they're, they're sl, I mean, how, how, how do you address that?
- [19:32]
Raymond Ibrahim
Well, okay, so it's, it's actually a good question. So Jihad, which is again a doctrinal aspect of Islam, which is all. Jihad isn't about forcibly converting people, it's about gaining governance all around the world and enforcing Islamic law. And then within that you can, for example, if you're a people of the Book, if you're a Christian or a Jew, you can keep your religion, but you have to pay tribute and essentially become a second class citizen. Okay. So then you lose a lot of your rights. Okay. And if you're not, if you're a pagan or you, you just get butchered or convert, that's the classic understanding of Islam. But within, within that whole view, there's different forms of jihad. So remember the word jihad. A lot of apologists will tell you it doesn't mean holy war, it means to strive, to struggle. And they're correct. That is the Arabic Meaning of the word, but in a way that actually really makes it worse because it shows you, it underscores again how multi tentacled the idea of jihad is. It's not just limited to warfare, even though that has been its primary expression historically. So there are categories of jihad, there's the jihad of the tongue, jihad of the pen. This is propaganda, lying pro or pen. So you're propagandizing on behalf of Islam to help empower Islam vis a vis the non Muslim, let's, let's say Europe. There's jihad of the money, which means you contribute, you pay money to the propaganda campaign, to the jihad groups. You're a rich Saudi, you don't have to actually engage in it, but you contribute. And there's also a little known, the baby jihad or the demographic jihad. And this is the idea of impregnating women, especially Muslim women, and having as many babies as possible and literally outbreeding the infidels. And that's what's happening, especially in Europe. And Muslims have said this multiple times, they boast about it all the time, going back decades. Muammar Gaddafi of Libya once talked about how that's going to happen in Europe. And lo and behold, it is happening. You have all these major capitals, I think London is one of them, where one, you know, the new, the number one newborn name of newborn baby boys is Muhammad. Okay. And this is not just in, in the uk, this is all throughout. So you. Yeah, it's not all about converting. Of course Muslims will try to convert you as well and there's brownie points in it for them, but it's about gaining power. And in fact, historically it was better for the Caliphates if people did not convert because then they can milk them for tribute and more tax. So there was actually, they didn't want people to convert. It was a way to get off paying the tribute. So ultimately it's just about gaining power one way or another, through force, through fraud, through babies and you know, demographic overwhelming, demographic boom. Yeah, all of that is at work.
- [22:10]
Mike Baker
How, I'm curious because you're very straightforward about talking about all of this. How is the response over the years, Ben, have you noticed a shift in, in the way people react to your, your, your discussions, your explanations, your writings?
- [22:36]
Raymond Ibrahim
Yeah, I, yeah, yeah, I think definitely for sure. Especially with my last books that deal with history because history is so powerful and there's so much fake history and history is often the first premise for the conclusions that we have about the modern era. And you know, so much of what People think about today, when you go back in his especially vis a vis Islam, Europe and Islam, it's the exact opposite. You find out that it was actually Muslims persecuting and conquering and killing Christians, including in Europe, for centuries. So I think when people see that, how it went on, then things start making sense. That today makes actually sense when you see jihadists acting the way they are. But I would say despite anything I or anyone says or what the masses believe, which is all good, the machinery just continues non stop. And you know, I just made a, I just, I made a video and I wrote an article just to give you an idea about, you know, what's happening to the Druze in Syria, right. And it's basically under the new Syrian president who's a jihadist, who's an Al Qaeda member formerly. And lo and behold, the religious minority are being attacked and butchered and, and slaughtered and raped and burned alive. Okay, the Druze, over the last couple of weeks. And to me though, it's kind of like, how is this news? This is not news. This is, you take jihadists and you empower them and you throw them amongst minorities. This is what happens. This is ISIS with the Yazidis, precisely a decade ago. And you know, and at the time, Donald Trump used to accuse Obama, rightfully so, of being the founder of isis. That's actually what Trump multiple times referred to Obama. And I'm wondering, well, what are you the founder of Donald Trump? Because you just said that guy, Ahmed Al Sharah, the new president, the Al Qaeda guy of Syria, he said he's a great guy. He shook hands with him, he's easing sanctions with him, patting him on the shoulder. And this guy is committing a genocide. So to me, it's just become very tiresome. It's the same mechanism. The us, the west helps jihadists. They end up killing everyone and then they turn around and bite the hand that fed them and attack the US and we're supposed to offer analysis about this every other year when it keeps happening non, non stop. So to me, frankly, it's getting sickening. So, yeah, I think a lot of the people, their eyes are opening, but the, you know, the leaders and the powers that be are just, they're, they're staying the course no matter what.
- [24:58]
Mike Baker
Why? And I want to be mindful of time here. But, but to pick up on your point, why do you think that is? Why? You know, when you say the leaders of the Western nations help jihadists, you know, why?
- [25:13]
Raymond Ibrahim
You know, there's, I always, I try to you know, simplify things. And to me, it's either sheer naivety and stupidity and whatever, or it's something diabolical. I'm pretty, pretty confident the latter at this point, because you can't be that naive and that stupid year in and year out, decade after decade. This goes back to Ronald Reagan, you know, when he was helping the mujahideen, Al Qaeda, against Russia in Afghanistan. They came back and attacked us in 9 11. So it's just, you know, it is what it is. I think they have their plan for the Middle east, and it involves using Islamic terrorists to get the dirty job done, is what I think.
- [25:52]
Mike Baker
That's fascinating, and that gives me a whole nother line of questioning. But we are out of time, Raymond. I hope you'll come back when we. When we call you again. I've enjoyed this conversation very much. That would be great. And again, you can find more of Raymond Ibrahim's work at his YouTube channel. That's at the Holy War Channel. Raymond, thank you very much for being here on the Situation report.
- [26:14]
Raymond Ibrahim
My pleasure.
- [26:16]
Mike Baker
Well, several Western nations are threatening to recognize a Palestinian state, and they're putting the squeeze on Israel to accept a ceasefire. We'll be joined by Jonathan Schanzer from the foundation for the Defense of Democracies to unpack what all that means. Stay with us. Hey, Mike Baker here. Well, now, look, we've seen major changes, right, coming out of Washington lately, and a lot going on around the world, by the way. But while the headlines focus on national policy and international stories, your personal savings, well, those are still your responsibility. And now, frankly, is the time to take control. Look, one of the smartest ways to protect your savings is through diversification, especially with gold from the Birch Gold Group. They're the precious metals specialists. Gold is up some 40% just in the past year alone. And central banks, we know what they're doing. They're buying up record amounts of gold, partly due to global instability, which you may have noticed is rising. Birch Gold makes it incredibly easy to own physical gold, either in your IRA or, like a lot of folks, just stored safely at home. Here's what you got to do. Just text PDB to the number 989898, and Birchgold will send you a free information kit on gold. There's no obligation. It's just useful information. Look, with an A rating, with a Better Business Bureau and tens of thousands of happy customers, take control of your savings today. It's simple. Text PDB to 989-898.
- [27:42]
Raymond Ibrahim
I'm Piers Morgan. The host of the Piers Morgan Uncensored podcast. We do big interviews and we do big debates about whatever's getting people talking. We make news, we make noise, and we make a little bit of trouble, too. If you want to see what all the fuss is about, you can listen to Piers Morgan Uncensored on Apple Podcast, Podcast, Spotify, Amazon Music, or wherever you get your podcasts.
- [28:09]
Mike Baker
Welcome back to the PDB Situation Report. Now, pressure is mounting on Israel with several Western nations including France, Canada and Malta. Don't forget Malta announcing plans to officially recognize a Palestinian state. And the UK The United Kingdom may follow suit as early as September during the UN General assembly if Israel refuses to accept a ceasefire. It's a coordinated push, it seems, that could reshape the international landscape. And it comes as outrage over Israel's military campaign in Gaza continues to grow, with critics accusing the Jewish state of committing genocide. To help us break this down, we're joined by Jonathan Schanzer. He's the executive director of the foundation for the Defense of Democracies. Jonathan, thanks very much for being here on the PDB Situation Report.
- [28:56]
Jonathan Schanzer
My pleasure.
- [28:58]
Mike Baker
What do you, and this is a very open ended question and I apologize, but there's a lot of running room here. What do you make of, of this move now? First France, then the UK weighs in, now Canada. We've got the Arab League making their declaration. What do you make of all this?
- [29:16]
Jonathan Schanzer
Look, I think it's, it's a lot of rearranging deck chairs on the Titanic when, when, when you cut through all the noise. I mean, first of all, let's just understand that recognizing a Palestinian state isn't anything in the Gaza Strip right now. The Palestinian Authority is the governing body right now in the west bank. And that's essentially who they're talking about recognizing. This is an entity that is run by 89 year old Mahmoud Abbas, who's been in power now since 2005. This guy is an autocrat, corrupt, has wasted hundreds of millions of dollars, maybe billions of dollars of assistance. This is not the answer for stability in the region. Declaring a state, empowering the Palestinians to have a state when they're not ready is a recipe for more unrest, for more instability. And I just don't see how any of this helps right now. Now that all said, I think that there is a moment if the international community wanted to come together and say, look, we are rejecting Hamas, we are calling on Hamas to leave the Gaza Strip entirely. Right? We are asking them, we're demanding of them to return all the hostages and to end this crisis. And when that happens, we are committed to rebuilding the Gaza Strip and defining a government that works and maybe even recognizing it. But right now they're putting the cart before the horse. They've skipped all the way to the end here by recognizing a state that doesn't exist and that doesn't function. And, and they haven't solved for the problem of Hamas.
- [30:55]
Mike Baker
Yeah, it does, I mean, it does have the smell of, of performative art and also sort of the, the, we can all feel good about ourselves now, right? I mean, it's easy to pat yourself on the back and, and then kick the can down the road. I, I don't want to sound really cynical, but now, now how does the Arab league and the EU and, and I think some 17 other nations all came up with a declaration during the two day conference that's, that's, that's been going on and it did, I mean, obviously it was, it was targeted at Israel in part, but it also was targeted at Hamas and did talk about, you know, the need for them to leave. Do you give that any, any credibility?
- [31:35]
Jonathan Schanzer
Look, I like it. It's better than nobody doing it. I think actually the most interesting part of it was that the Qataris took part in this statement. And the Qataris are key sponsors, patrons of Hamas. They've been giving them, I mean, up until the October 7th attacks, they were giving them $30 million a month. And on top of that, you still have top leaders that are based in Qatar right now. I don't really understand what they were thinking here. I don't know why they decided to join, but I, I mean, I will laud it to the extent that they're willing to follow through. And, and I mean, look, this is what should have happened a long time ago. They should have kicked Hamas out of their country immediately. They should have put pressure on Hamas to end the hostage crisis immediately. Right. I mean, they could have stopped so much bloodshed had they used their leverage in Qatar against Hamas. I think, by the way, that right now that's a sign to me that maybe this is the moment. You know, we know Stephen Witkoff is going to Gaza. He's going to assess whatever's going on there with the aid mechanism. By the way, I'm not sure exactly if he knows how to assess this, but I mean, I suppose it's a good thing that he's going and he wants to see with his own eyes. But really, if you want to ask what the positive role of the US would be right now, it would be to lead an effort to get the entire Arab world to get Hamas's patrons, Hamas's supporters, but also these Western countries that are, you know, virtue signaling right now to the Palestinians, get them all to come together and for the first time actually declare that this hostage crisis needs to end it, that they're holding Hamas responsible and that there will be ramifications for not doing this. I mean, it's kind of amazing to me that we're 650 plus days into this war and we have not yet seen a coordinated action along these lines. I think what the Arab world did and what the Europeans did with this statement, they actually just gave us a glimmer of what's possible. And for that, I got to say I commend them.
- [33:33]
Mike Baker
Yeah, it is. It is surreal in a way that it took this long for them to all agree to condemn the seven October 2023 attacks. I mean, if you think about it, really, what. I mean, how many committee meetings did you have to have to decide that you could condemn something like that? Look, to play devil's advocate, you talked about the. The fact that they should have been calling for the departure of Hamas years ago. I mean, you could make the argument, and I'm about to, that in part, the 7th of October happened because, in part, the Israeli government almost appeared to have gotten to the point where they accepted Hamas as the governing, you know, element there in Gaza. And they. They had kind of gotten to the point where they thought, okay, I think maybe they're more interested in just bettering the lives instead of, they're. Maybe they're moving away from a war standing. It seemed like they. They sort of fell asleep with the wheel in part because Hamas was playing a disinformation campaign that was, you know, fairly well thought out. Look, this is. We're going to lull them to sleep and then take advantage of them, as they did on the 7th of October. So it almost looks like Israel had gotten to the point where they. They had accepted, in a way, the fact that Hamas was there to stay. Am I wrong about that?
- [34:50]
Jonathan Schanzer
No. You know, it was interesting. A couple of days before the October 7th attack, this is like late September, I spoke to a senior Israeli official whose file was the Palestinians, and he handled this for the Netanyahu government. And I asked him about Gaza because we were talking a lot about west bank and what was going on there, because, you know, leading up to 10, seven, that's where all of the attention had been placed was what's going on in the West Bank. And how dangerous was it, etc. And the guy said, look, we actually believe we can work with Yaya Sinwar, the guy that ultimately went on to launch the 10, 7 attacks that led the military effort, whose plan it was to attack Israel on that day. The Israelis believed that he was more interested in providing products and services to the 2 million people of Gaza.
- [35:39]
Mike Baker
And.
- [35:39]
Jonathan Schanzer
And yeah, they were feeding information through, you know, I think probably devices that they understood that were being listened to by the Israelis. They were feeding intel to senior Israeli officials that was clearly wrong. And yes, the Israelis got played. But I don't think there was ever a moment where the Israelis are saying, oh, yeah, Hamas will be fine. What I think they arrived at was this mistaken assessment that, you know, Hamas was a group that they could do business with in the short term, medium, long term. They were going to have problems, as they have, right? Every couple of years, there's a war that erupts because Hamas, you know, launches that war. What they didn't see was the full scale of this. But now I got to say, when you look at the outlook for the Gaza Strip, no prospects whatsoever unless Hamas leaves. And I think that's really the rub that we're looking at right now where, you know, the Israelis are saying, we can't stop fighting, right? And we can't stop what we're doing in the Gaza Strip because Hamas is still there. And Hamas is taking advantage of that because the Israelis have taken responsibility for all the borders, all the aid, everything that goes on inside the Gaza Strip. So Hamas is, has. Has done a little jiu jitsu here. And they said, yeah, we're weak and we don't have the capabilities any longer. You know, whose fault everything is now? The Israelis. And so the Israelis have to think about how they're going to flip the script. I don't think that they have come up with the right approach yet. They're flooding the Gaza Strip with aid. I think that's important. They probably need to keep doing that. That will have, unfortunately for Israel, a little bit of a backfire effect because it's going to give more agency to Hamas. But I do think that the Israelis can, for example, I mean, I just wrote about this recently. They can declare that, you know, look, aid's going to come in, but not one ounce of reconstruction material will come until Hamas relinquishes all the hostages and hands over all its weapons and its top leaders leave the Gaza Strip. That's still something that Israel can ask for, and that would change that leverage.
- [37:42]
Mike Baker
Once Again, a couple of parts here. I want to ask you about. You know, has Hamas essentially won, though, the. The messaging war with. I look at the pressure that's coming on now, this idea that, you know, they're on the brink of famine or, you know, children are dying from starvation. And that is clearly. Yes, clearly, it's a crisis. Right. I don't think anybody, you know, can. Can argue that, that the people, the civilians of Gaza are. Are desperately hurting for assistance, and so the situation is dire. But you can also argue that Hamas has been very clever in understanding the power of that message and has amplified it to a willing media that's been, you know, you know, keen to. To go along with the notion that, you know, everybody's starving in Gaza. So, I mean, there's this element of, you know, has Hamas actually, to use your terms, flip the script here, and a point where they're on their back foot. They're clearly. Leadership is decimated, stockpiles are in, tunnels destroyed, etc. And yet they found this, still this ability to drive the narrative. And then the other part of this, and honestly, what we'll do is I'll leave you with these two points to ponder during our break. The other question is, at this point, why would Hamas give up the remaining hostages, knowing that that's their only leverage? And they're clearly desperate to retain power, retain control. So I want to ask you again, this is a tough question, but, you know, how do you. How do you beat that? But first, Jonathan Schanzer, if you'll stick around, I will be right back with more of the PDB situation report. And Jonathan Schanzer from the foundation for the Defense of Democracies. Don't go anywhere. Hey, Mike Baker here. Let me ask you an intriguing question, if I may. What if you could delay your next two mortgage payments? Right. Think about it. Imagine putting those two payments in your pocket and finally getting a little breathing room. Well, it is possible when you call American financing today. Look, if you're feeling stretched by everyday expenses, you know what I'm talking about. Grocery bills, gas bills, you got utility bills, you got a variety of bills. They're all piling up. Well, let me tell you something. You're not alone. And frankly, many Americans are putting those expenses on credit cards. And for many of them, there doesn't seem to be a way out. Well, let me tell you, American financing can show you how to use your home's equity to pay off that debt. So give them a call today before you get to a point where all Those payments, while they seem unmanageable. Look, their salary based mortgage consultants are helping homeowners just like you, restructure their loans and consolidate debt, all without upfront fees. And that's very important. And their customers are saving an average of some $800 a month. Now, I'm not a rocket scientist, but I think that's something like a $10,000 raise. It's fast, it's simple and it could save your budget. Look, call now before it's too late. The number 866-885-1181. Again, the number 866-885-1881 or just visit american financing.net PDB welcome back to the PDB Situation Report. Joining me once again is Jonathan Schanzer from the foundation for the Defense of Democracies. He's the executive director, by the way. You know that if you had his business card. Jonathan, thank you very much for sticking around. I left you with two rather large questions. I'll let you decide which you want to tackle first. Sure.
- [41:14]
Jonathan Schanzer
I mean, first, let's talk about Hamas's mouthpieces. Let me just say that there should be no surprise to anybody that the narrative right now has shifted towards more support for Hamas, more criticism for Israel. There's a couple reasons for it. I mean, one is, you know, look at the people that are out there that are setting the tone for, for this discussion. I mean, it's the Gaza Ministry of Health, which is a Hamas run entity, obviously a propaganda organ. That doesn't mean that everything they say is false, but everything they say is tinged with Hamas ideology, which means it's always going to be negative toward Israel. And, you know, and they're going to amplify and they're going to blow things out of proportion. That's one you get the UN obviously not exactly big fans of Israel, you know, and then on top of that, you've got like the BBC and CNN and a lot of these main mainstream outlets have shifted hard left, hard, hard left to the point that they're just overtly cheering for Hamas. A lot of this has to do with it. In my view, it comes down to the Gaza Humanitarian Foundation. This is that private entity set up by the United States and Israel to disseminate aid in the Gaza Strip. You got to understand, the very existence of this thing threatens, it's an existential threat to Hamas and to the U.N. in other words, these are the two entities that maintained absolute control of full monopoly on the administration of the Gaza Strip. When Israel and the United States and Others came in and said, here's this new private sector entity. It's going to supplant the UN and it's going to disseminate the aid. That was the moment that all of this, everyone's hair was on fire, all of Israel's enemies and the messaging started to come out. Now, I'm not going to tell you that everything that they've said is false about the aid situation. I'm sure that Gaza is not a picnic. I mean, I, we all know it, right? There's a war that's been going there for 600 something days. Of course it's not, it's not a pleasant place to be, but man, did this all start to tick up. And, and we really could feel the intensity of this narrative the moment that the UN and, and Hamas began to realize that GHF was no joke. And so they're trying to delegitimize both Israel and the Gaza Humanitarian Foundation. And look, they're doing a great job of it, right, The New York Times, right, You know, running pictures that were, I mean, it looks like it was deliberate misinformation that they just bought hook, line and sinker, huge problem. And you've got these willing, useful idiots for Hamas and boy, are they just getting suckered into this. So I think, you know, you just need to continue to call things out without denying that there are basic facts that we can't change, that this is a war zone and it's going to be a challenge, but don't let them get away with every one of the lies that are being spun here. It's a, it's an interesting balance that Israel is going to have to work with, the US Is going to have to work with and, and you know, and I think we're going to see, you know, where, where things go next. But I think it's important to note that Israel, by flooding the zone with aid in the Gaza Strip, it's taken the right first step. What happens from there, we don't know. Now, as, as for your second question, you asked about why would Hamas ever, you know, willingly relinquish power? And the answer is it won't. But let me put it this way. If the people of Gaza, right, there's 2 million people in Gaza right now and they've been suffering because of a war that Hamas launched on October 7 of 23, they know who is responsible for their suffering. If the Israelis come in and say, look, we're giving you all the food that you need, but you're never ever going to have a normal life again. You're not going to see reconstruction, those apartment buildings, the, you know, the schools, all the things that you want to return to. Whatever normal was in Gaza, it will not happen until the hostages are gone and until the top leaders of Hamas step down. I actually think that that's the moment that the people of Gaza begin to realize that they have more leverage. And again, this is all about perception. It's about flipping the script. We've not seen the Israelis try to put pressure on Hamas in this way. We haven't seen the international community try to put pressure, Pressure on Hamas in this way. I'm not going to tell you that I got all the answers, but I do. I. I think we can all say this, that right now what Israel is doing has not been a success. I mean, they've vanquished Hamas, they've defeated them militarily, but look how they're struggling right now with this political environment. They need to figure out how to get past it. That means coming up with a different strategy. Right? Every, as they always say, you know, every strategy sounds great till you make contact with the enemy. It's amazing that the strategy lasted this long and it's worked, but now it's not. So what's Israel's next move? We'll find out.
- [46:06]
Mike Baker
Yeah. Yeah. And it is fascinating that, that you look at the, at the statements from, from France, from UK from, from Canada now, and then you, you also look at the declaration from the Arab League and the EU nations and some others, and it all sounds grand. Right. Until you kind of get into the details where they're saying, you know, contingent upon Hamas giving up control and nobody, Nobody has a. As a way of getting to that point. Right. I mean, you know, the Israelis are at this stage where I think they. They've isolated the remaining Hamas fighters. The assumption has to be that the hostages are in those areas. Right. Which may be accounting for the fact that you don't see a lot of. Of the aggressive military operations right there in those spots in an effort to try to protect the remaining hostages and recover the others. But it's. It's one of those points where if you take this to its logical conclusion, there's no. There's no solution. Right. There's no. There's no. Okay, so how then are you going to do this? It's nice that you've made these declarations. It's nice that everybody can pat themselves on the back, but the reality is a lot more difficult. And I think that's what you know, the US And Israel are trying to say, the problem is that this narrative that's built and has been very successful and seems to be gaining steam, that, you know, that's it, you have to finish now. And so you've got two scenarios. Either the international community continues to grow for this demand that you have a ceasefire which leaves Hamas in place, or you don't and you continue to. This, this, this effort that doesn't seem to have a solution. I like what you're saying about, in terms of, you know, but that requires then the people of Gaza to rise up. Right. In a way, if, I mean, I don't want to sound too grand, but it's going to have to come internally to some degree to say, that's enough, we've got to get rid of Hamas.
- [48:06]
Jonathan Schanzer
Yeah, but I, you know, I think none of that actually happens until you start to see a steady drum beat of declarations coming out of Western capitals, coming out of Washington saying, look, I'm saying it again every day. The problem is Hamas. The misery that Hamas. I mean, let's just, you know, I mean, look back just briefly in history. Hamas took over the Gaza Strip in a civil war in 2007, been to war with Israel now five different times. Each time it's led to more misery, more destruction. Now look at where we are, right? And to have world leaders say that repeatedly and to remind the world that Hamas is the problem, that begins to change the psychology here. Then you have the Israelis say, no more reconstruction until, you know, Hamas leaves and until the hostages are gone and people continue to call. Donald Trump calls for the release of the hostages every day when he gets up in front of the cameras. This is the kind of pressure campaign that we haven't seen. And I don't really understand why, because it's not hard to condemn a designated terrorist organization. Right. Hamas is seen as a terrorist organization in most of these countries around the world. Why have we not seen a unified voice? It's just, it's remarkable to me, but I do think that psychologically, politically, diplomatically, you can start to change this narrative. But you have to want to.
- [49:25]
Mike Baker
I think this is, this is going to sound strange, it's going to sound harsh, but I'm searching for an answer to your question as to why we haven't seen that to happen. And part of it is I suspect that the other side, meaning Israel, is put themselves in a position where a lot of people just don't find sympathy for them. Right. Because of the steady drumbeat of what's happened in Gaza, the, the level of, of response. I think you can have people who are sympathetic based on the awfulness of 7October and those attacks and what, what, what you know, Hamas has done. But even with that, the narrative turned remarkably quickly after the 7th of October back towards, well, but you know, look, I mean Hamas, you know, and it was so I just, look, I agree with you. I mean, I think that you need that steady drumbeat. I don't think it's practical. I don't think it's going to happen from the international community. You know, this, this, this denouncing of Hamas in a big way. I'm amazed that the Arab League came out the way they did, unified in a statement criticizing Hamas. But I don't think you're going to get much more than that. You know, again, I don't have a question there. This is more of a, of a ramble in our conversation.
- [50:47]
Jonathan Schanzer
I get it and I understand the skepticism. But I think, you know, the, the broader point here is I think Israel needs to make some unilateral moves and declarations. I think the US and the Israelis should be working together on communication here. Again, it doesn't deny that there are challenges in terms of food security in Gaza. I think, you know, Israel and the US are going to have to handle that and they should. It's the right thing, it's the moral thing to do. But that's not going to solve the problem in Gaza. The food insecurity thing can be solved with more pallets. It can be solved with more trucks coming in. Right. I mean that stuff is, it's fairly simple logistically. And we've already seen some of the photos and the reports that massive amounts of food have been injected into Gaza in response to these reports. You know, they're not messing around here, they're not waiting. But really the big problem is that Hamas is still there. That is, I mean, and it's really not hard for anybody to understand this. Even if you're new to understanding this conflict. You understand that one is a non state actor that is a terrorist organization that murdered 1200 people in one day and kidnapped 254. The other one is a US ally, a democracy that is trying to figure out how to fight an urban war. By the way, we didn't do particularly well out in here in this country when we tried to fight those kinds of urban wars in Iraq and Afghanistan. The Israelis are struggling with it in much the same way. We should have some sympathy for them as they do this, we should try to help get them out of this crisis, change the narrative, but more importantly, change the facts on the ground because nobody wants this war anymore. And I think that's a lot of what's happening here, to be honest. People are just right.
- [52:30]
Mike Baker
I'm sorry for interrupting. I want to be mindful of the time and I had one last question that, you know, we're not going to have enough time for you to give it justice, but hopefully for the next time we get together. Netanyahu, Prime Minister Netanyahu came out with a proposal just in the past couple of days that he presented to his cabinet. And I wanted to get your take on it in a, in sort of a short period of time we have left where he talked about a proposal for annexing parts of Gaza. And you know, much like they did with the Golan Heights, East Jerusalem, this idea that they just, you know, okay, we have it militarily now, let's just by de facto take it over and annex these portions, whether it's the buffer zone or other areas. Do you think, from your perspective, do you think that's basically him just playing politics internally and placating the more hard right. Members of his cabinet, or do you think that there, they would actually be serious in considering something like that?
- [53:34]
Jonathan Schanzer
Yeah, look, I think it's, it's absolutely, you know, it's, it's signaling to his, to his cabinet, to, to some of the right wing politicians in Israel that really want to hold on to the Gaza Strip. They see it as an inextricable part of Israel for some reason or another. Let me just say, as a guy who's been to Gaza, nobody actually wants to be there. I don't think that, you know, the, any of these Israelis really are serious about going back. Maybe there's some settlers that would be curious about it. But I got to tell you, Bibi needs to learn the rule of holes when you're in one, stop digging. So right now, with all of this negative press that's going on about Israel, the last thing that he needs to do is to talk about annexation. What he needs to do is talk about getting enough food into the Gaza Strip and then figuring out how to beat Hamas. Then he could talk about the day after. But I see, I saw that as an unforced error on the part of Netanyahu.
- [54:23]
Mike Baker
Okay, very interesting. Jonathan, thank you very much for all your insight, your expertise. I hope that you'll, you'll come back when we, we call you again, because again, being a pessimist and a cynic. I think this problem is going to be raging for a while. Jonathan Schenzer, the Foundation for the Defense of Democracies. Thank you as always for stopping by. Well, that's all the time that we have for for this week's PDB situation report. God, what a mess, right? I mean, you think about how complex that problem is. Anyway, if you have any questions or comments, please reach out to me at pdb@the first tv.com look, every month, you know what happens. Our amazing team at the pdb. We even allow the interns at the conference table. Everybody gathers around, we empty out the mailbags from the previous month of all your questions and your comments. We select a bunch of them and we smush them into an episode that we call Ask Me Anything. The the next one is coming out here probably in the next 24 hours. So keep an eye out for that. Finally, to listen to the podcast ad free. You know you can do that as well. And it is very simple. Just become a premium member of the President's Daily Brief by visiting PDB Premium. And one last thing, if you got a moment in your busy day, don't forget to check out and subscribe to our YouTube channel. You can find that on YouTube, of course, at President's Daily Brief, I'm Mike Baker. Until next time. You know the Drip. Stay informed, stay safe, stay cool.