PDB Situation Report | September 20th, 2025: Inside the Mind of Charlie Kirk’s Accused Killer & TikTok’s Future

Summary

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The President's Daily Brief Situation Report | September 20th, 2025

Host: Mike Baker (Former CIA Operations Officer)
Guests:

• Eric O’Neill (Former FBI Counterterrorism and Counterintelligence Operative, Founding Partner, The Georgetown Group)
• Steve Yates (Senior Research Fellow, Heritage Foundation; Former White House Deputy National Security Advisor for the Vice President)

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Episode Overview

In this episode, Mike Baker provides an in-depth analysis of two pressing issues:

1. Inside the Mind of Charlie Kirk’s Accused Killer: Newly revealed details and forensic developments in the assassination of conservative commentator Charlie Kirk, focusing on the suspect, Tyler Robinson, motivations, and law enforcement’s investigative approach.
2. TikTok’s Future After the US-China Deal: Dissection of a headline-making deal to transfer TikTok’s US assets from Chinese ownership, with an exploration of enduring national security risks.

Expert insights from Eric O’Neill unpack the ongoing Kirk case, while Steve Yates offers perspectives on social media as a tool for foreign influence and youth manipulation.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. The Charlie Kirk Assassination: Inside the Investigation

[01:10 - 07:57]

• State of the Investigation

  • Law enforcement is moving from investigation to building a court case, remaining alert to potential co-conspirators or individuals who aided the shooter.
  • Robinson, the accused, refuses to cooperate, while those close to him—including his partner—are helping authorities.
  • The prosecution is pursuing the death penalty, influencing Robinson’s strategy to remain silent (likely on counsel’s advice).

    “If I were advising Robinson, I would say don’t say anything. And that’s not surprising.” – Eric O’Neill (04:28)

• Motive & Radicalization

  • The shooter’s actions appear deliberate and ideologically driven, tied to deep-seated animosity toward Kirk and his views.
  • Communications showed clarity of purpose rather than mental instability.

    “This would have taken weeks of planning ... not the rantings of an unhinged individual.” – O’Neill (07:15);
    “Lucid, purposeful, and driven toward that single event.” – O’Neill (08:13)

  • Discussion on whether Robinson’s defense will attempt to use mental disorder claims at trial. O’Neill expects such a ploy, but doubts its viability due to careful planning evidence.

• Security Failures and Event Protocols

  • High-profile figures like Kirk face substantial threats, often with inadequate event security.
  • The logistics of Kirk’s assassination echo vulnerabilities seen in past attacks (e.g., attempted Trump shooting in Butler, PA).

    “He would have had to have something like a presidential Secret Service protection unit in order to sweep the buildings ... Even that wasn’t adequate.” – O’Neill (09:02)

  • The shooter’s precision implies reconnaissance and familiarity with the venue.

• Notable Detail: Choice of Weapon

  • The use of a bolt-action rifle (gifted by Robinson’s grandfather) limited the shooter to one shot but reflected specific, personal decision-making.

    “I always wondered why he chose that instead of an AR-15 ... But now we know.” – O’Neill (15:33)

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2. TikTok’s Future: National Security or Political Theater?

[17:00 - 44:04]

• Summary of the New US-China Deal

  • Washington and Beijing have agreed to transfer TikTok’s US assets to an American consortium (Oracle, Silver Lake, Andreessen Horowitz).
  • Critics claim the deal may be more political than practical—Chinese state influence may persist through technology and data access.

    “Lawmakers ... continue to describe TikTok as a surveillance tool with a video feature.” – Baker (17:00)

• TikTok as a National Security Threat

  • Yates emphatically confirms the app has been used by the CCP to harvest American data, manipulate youth, and suppress critical information.

    “100% it is in my view ... the algorithm though, you can manipulate what goes into people’s timelines.” – Steve Yates (20:45)

  • Contrasts Chinese and US TikTok algorithms: Chinese apps promote educational and motivational content, while US algorithms serve distracting, sometimes harmful material.

    “Basically it’s dumbing down and distracting ... for our kids.” – Yates (21:46)

• Evidence of Foreign Interference

  • TikTok feeds rapidly filled with provocative content after major world events (e.g., October 7 attacks, protests in 2020), indicating likely outside influence.

    “It’s almost impossible to imagine that having been spontaneously the case ... someone was turning the dial up on this.” – Yates (22:17)

• Broader Risks of Foreign-Controlled Social Platforms

  • Social media can be used as a cheap and effective tool for foreign powers to spread division and influence public opinion.

    “The ability to split and divide, the ability to have very nuanced messages ... it is a remarkably effective tool at a relatively low cost...” – Baker (24:17)

  • The US has not developed an equivalent domestic alternative; Yates expresses frustration with American tech’s lack of response.

• Is Real Security Separation Possible?

  • Baker and Yates express skepticism that ByteDance’s involvement can be fully severed—algorithms might remain a ‘back door’.

    “If there’s something unique about that algorithm that made it more powerful and compelling ... how is that not going to be a back door?” – Yates (36:46)

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3. Social Media, Radicalization, and the Kirk Case

[38:58 - 44:04]

• Online Radicalization

  • Discussion turns to whether social media accelerated Robinson’s radicalization, paralleling methods seen in global terror recruitment.

    “There’s deep, deep science ... to try to make you angry. Because if you are angry, you will remain ... they can monetize your addiction.” – Yates (40:30)

  • Questions arise about the accountability of tech platforms for community guidelines and for the spread of extreme or violent content.

• Amplification of Polarization

  • Social media not only reflects radical views—it can inflame them, especially when foreign actors exploit algorithms to push divisive debates (e.g., antisemitism controversies following Kirk’s death).

    “What if foreign actors want to inflame this? What could they do to raise questions?” – Yates (41:41)

• Long-term Societal Impact

  • Both host and guest voice concern that the full consequences of social media addiction and manipulation will become clearer with time—and may shock the public.

    “I think down the road, we’re going to be shocked ... just how damaging it can be.” – Baker (43:20)

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• “Sometimes evil thinks it is doing good. And this certainly seems what ha… is what happened to this young man.”
  – Eric O’Neill, on the psychology of political violence (06:21)

• “Charlie's level... You will see speakers that are controversial and that have death threats against them being [moved] inside where security can better secure every single person…”
  – O’Neill, on the future of high-profile events after Kirk’s shooting (09:02)

• “They sort of have people in odd outfits doing inappropriate things, hitting the top of their time. Plus the communication functions of it sometimes also are promoting advertisements for illegal substances and basically it’s dumbing down and distracting the same demographic…”
  – Yates, contrasting US and Chinese TikTok algorithms (21:46)

• “You’re open to more engagement, more advertising. They can monetize your addiction… this isn’t just domestic actors that could be at play.”
  – Yates, on the manipulation-for-profit model and foreign exploitation of social media (40:30; 41:22)

• “I’m skeptical, I’m cynical from my perspective because I know how operationally aggressive the Chinese regime is.”
  – Baker, expressing doubts about the TikTok deal’s efficacy (37:18)

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Timestamps for Important Segments

| Timestamp | Topic | |-----------|---------------------------------------| | 01:10 | Episode introduction, Kirk shooting update | | 02:48 | Eric O’Neill interview begins | | 03:09 | Details on investigation/court transition | | 04:28 | Discussion on Robinson’s lack of cooperation | | 06:01 | Motive, radicalization, and planning | | 07:15 | Mental health as a legal defense | | 09:02 | Event security analysis post-assassination | | 15:33 | Expert detail: Use of grandfather’s bolt-action rifle | | 17:00 | TikTok US-China deal introduction | | 18:35 | Steve Yates interview: National security risks | | 20:45 | Is TikTok a security threat? (Yates) | | 21:46 | Contrasting algorithms: US vs China | | 22:17 | Social media as protest/provocation tool | | 24:17 | Social media as a foreign influence weapon | | 36:46 | Whether a “beautiful wall” can be built between TikTok US and Chinese ByteDance | | 38:58 | Social media radicalization after Kirk assassination | | 40:30 | Exploiting outrage to fuel engagement/addiction | | 41:41 | Foreign actors and algorithmic manipulation | | 43:20 | Concerns & unknowns about social media’s societal impact | | 44:04 | Episode wrap-up and signoff |

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Episode Tone & Style

Mike Baker’s tone remains sober, accessible, and sometimes wry. Both guests offer clear, jargon-free explanations, with an emphasis on direct, practical implications and an undercurrent of urgency. The conversation is frank, sometimes speculative, but rooted in law enforcement, intelligence, and policy experience.

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For Listeners: Why This Episode Matters

• Provides a behind-the-scenes look at a high-profile political assassination and the investigative process.
• Illuminates the complex threats posed by social media—both from homegrown radicalization and foreign manipulation.
• Offers rare, candid perspectives from practitioners at the highest levels of intelligence, law enforcement, and national security policy.
• Raises critical, unresolved questions about data privacy, censorship, platform responsibility, and the future of open discourse.

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For questions or comments:
Reach out to Mike Baker at [e-mail]
Premium, ad-free episodes and exclusive series available at PDBpremium.com

Transcript

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[A]

Welcome to the PDB Situation report. I'm Mike Baker, your eyes and ears on the world stage. And yes, I coming to you from some nondescript, undisclosed hotel location somewhere in the world. All right, let's get briefed. First up, new details are emerging about the man accused of gunning down Charlie Kirk, and investigators are piecing together a clearer picture of his life and his motives. For more insight, we'll be joined by former FBI counterterrorism and counterintelligence operative Eric o'. Neill. Later in the show, Washington and Beijing strike a deal on TikTok. Ooh, TikTok. But does it actually make Americans safer, or does the app remain a national security risk? Friend of the show, senior research fellow at the Heritage Foundation, Steve Yates stops by for more on that. But first, today's Situation Report. Spotlight. It's been over a week since a single bullet cut down conservative commentator Charlie Kirk in Utah, and investigators are still uncovering the story behind his accused killer, 22 year old Tyler Robinson. According to prosecutors, Robinson's actions were not random and and messages to his transgender partner point to a clear political motivation steeped in hatred for Kirk and the ideas he represented. Investigators are now examining whether Robinson's digital footprint reveals a larger network of influence or if this was the act of a lone gunman driven by ideology. Joining me now is former FBI counterterrorism and counterintelligence operative Eric o'. Neal. He's also the founding partner of of the Georgetown group. Eric, thanks very much for joining us here on THE Situation report. Really appreciate it.

[D]

It's good to be back with you.

[A]

Tell our viewers and there's so much here to unpack. Right. But, but let's start with with your perception of the transition from investigation to court case. Right. What is that process like, and, and to what degree is an investigation still going on, particularly on the forensic side?

[D]

Well, the investigation will continue because right now what law enforcement is looking at is whether they were co conspirators or those who gave aid and abetting to the shooter or those who helped plot the attack. So there will continue to be investigations to see if there need to be additional arrests. And as you said, now there's a transition of all of this forensic and very good detailed evidence that will go from law enforcement to, to the prosecutors so they can build their case. And based on that as evidence, we've already seen that the, the, the prosecutors have decided the charges that they're going to bring, although there could still be more in the future.

[A]

Okay. Now according to reports anyway, and what, what the public's being told, Tyler Robinson isn't cooperating. It's not cooperating with authorities, but family, his roommate or his partner, however you want to describe the individual and others appear to be cooperating. Talk to me about Robinson's decision. I know it's hard to get into somebody's head like that, but do you think that was advice from, from his lawyers or have you, is that an unusual thing because he must know that others are talking and so it doesn't matter whether he's cooperating or not.

[D]

Yeah, unfortunately for Robinson, he is the only one who's not cooperating. It sounds like every single person that is around his circle of friends is cooperating because they're, they must be afraid that the lens of the, of law enforcement could be pointed at them. Now it's the Utah governor, the prosecutor has made it very clear that they're going to seek the death penalty. So if I were advising Robinson, I would say don't say anything. And that's not surprising. The reason to cooperate is to try to get a plea deal. But if they're going to go for the death penalty, then what plea deal could he get?

[A]

True. But if they're going for the plea deal, and I assume this would go to trial. Right. There would be a jury. Then couldn't you argue the jury would be influenced by perhaps his decision to cooperate or to be seen as remorseful?

[D]

Yeah, quite possibly. You know, typically in these kind of cases, you see the, the defendant, the, the shooter say, okay, I will confess and resolve the whole trial problem and in return, give me life in prison. You know, for example, that was the, the deal that the spy I caught, Robert Hansen made. You know, he was looking at the death penalty, I think five or six different ways. And he made a plea deal that said, let's take that off the table and I will fully cooperate. And that's typically what you see. And it's quite possible that the attorney, who I understand is a public defender, is trying to push for that right now.

[A]

What do you make of. Of, I mean, based on the evidence so far, and I don't want to get into a sort of a speculation game here, but what do you make of the interactions that at least we've seen so far in text exchanges and discussion in terms of motive?

[D]

Well, it appears that the shooter, if this indeed is the shooter, of course, it's all alleged until tried and convicted by a jury of his peers. But it looks like he was radicalized. He grew up with a somewhat conservative family and then went into a lifestyle where he decided that Charlie Kirk was an enemy and in his mind, made himself to be the hero. And that's the real sad thing about this. Sometimes evil thinks it is doing good. And this certainly seems what ha. Is what happened to this young man.

[A]

Are you surprised that there's not an effort to. Maybe it's a public defender or maybe it would be Robinson himself to kind of portray him as a mentally disturbed individual, Maybe use that as a. I don't want to call it an escape route, but a pathway towards something other than the death penalty?

[D]

Oh, I am, I'm certain we will see that once we get to trial that they will be filing to say that they need to have a analysis of him, and they'll bring in psychologists who will say that he is not fit to stand trial because he suffers from some mental disorder or another. But on the other hand, he certainly planned this very effectively. And what we do have is the writings of someone who seems to be particularly angry at Charlie Kirk and very carefully planned out an execution. That doesn't suggest to me that this is someone who is unhinged and went off this. This would have taken weeks of planning.

[A]

Yeah, it does appear. I mean, at least, again, we're just going on what's been made to the public. But it does appear that things that he was writing or saying were, Were lucid. Right. It wasn't, wasn't the rantings of, of, of an unhinged individual. It seems. Right. Again. Right.

[D]

Lucid, purposeful, and driven toward that single event.

[A]

I want to switch gears a little bit if I could, Eric, and get your impressions, and I'm going, I don't want to play armchair quarterback. That's, that's not the job here. But I, I. There is a hot wash that happens after something like this. Right. Where you know there has to be. You look at the security arrangements that existed and you look to ensure that the next time, you know, you're mitigating the risks. You know, if you could talk to me about your perception of, of Charlie Kirk as an individual, as someone in society with a very high profile, obviously some enemies, and then talk to me about sort of the event process and the environment that he was in. Right.

[D]

Well, I, unfortunately I think we've seen the end of these open air events. I think that you will see speakers that are at Charlie Kirk's level, that are controversial and that have death threats against them being inside where security can better secure every single person who goes into say an auditorium. You know, if, if it's a speaker of that wide renowned. There could also be, you know, a keynote in a coliseum where you have doors that can be manned by security and checking everyone who goes in. It was impossible to secure that area where Charlie was speaking and it had too many outbuildings. He does not have the security team to do that. Even with law enforcement presence. He would have had to have something like a presidential Secret Service protection unit in order to sweep the buildings, have counter snipers. And you saw what would happen in Butler, Pennsylvania. Even that wasn't adequate to protect Trump from someone taking a shot at him from a building that the shooter should never have been on top of a civilian who's hiring his own security and relying on law enforcement that's provided by the state. He doesn't even have that close to that level of security. And you can see how a shooter could get on a roof and take that shot easily.

[A]

Right. And again, you know, it was, was fairly well known Charlie had talked about it himself. He was receiving or had received death threats in the past as have a variety of other sort of lightning rods in, in, in the, in that arena, you know, of, of pundits or speakers or however you want to activists, however you want to refer to him. And it's it I again speculation I suppose, but it's not hard to imagine that this kid, Tyler Robinson, you know, obviously clearly must have seen video of Butler and probably was familiar with the campus. I assume looked around there at some point. He probably recce the canvas the campus and the environment there for the speech or the event, looked up, saw a roof, thought about Butler and thought well there's, there's a, there's a shot.

[D]

That's quite possible. And you're right, Mike. He would have had to be on that campus at some point before the shooting, because he would have had to determine how far away that rooftop was from where Charlie was going to be. And he would have had to known the. Where Charlie would be when he was speaking, where those rooftops were, because he would have had to dial in his scope. You can't just lay up with a, with a weapon like that and, and fire it. You actually have to know the distance.

[A]

Yeah, no, exactly. I would assume he's. Again, you do the recce, then you go out and you practice. And look, he was. If he was down the St. George area, that place is wide open spaces down there. Right. So exactly. Going out and, and plinking at a few hundred yards is, Is not uncommon. Eric, a lot more questions to. To throw your way, but if you could stay right where you are. We have to take a very quick break, and then we'll be back with more from Eric o' Neill and the situation report. All right, stick around. Hey, Mike Baker here. Let me take just a moment of your time to talk about personal finances. Right. That's an important topic. Look, you may have noticed the cost of everything is still somewhat out of control, right? Grocery bills, utility bills, gas. You get the point. And for many folks, they're relying on credit cards to cover those essentials. Now, if that debt is piling up for you, well, you're not alone. Get this. Americans collectively owe over $1 trillion in credit card debt. That's right. So by now, you may have considered reaching out to my friends over at American Financing, but you hesitated because you don't want to give up your low mortgage rate. Well, there is good news. They've created what they're calling the Smart Equity Loan. It's a solution designed to help you take control of your finances without touching your current mortgage. That sounds pretty good. Unlike a heloc, which can have varied interest rates, the Smart Equity Loan offers a fixed rate that means one predictable monthly payment, giving you peace of mind. The loan allows you to leverage the equity in your home to pay off high interest debt, free up your cash flow, and keep your existing low mortgage rate intact. It only takes about 10 minutes to get started, and there's no upfront or hidden fees, and that is important. Call American Financing today and start saving now. The number 866-885-1881. Again, that's 866-885-1881. Or just visit american financing.net PDB Wouldn't.

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[A]

Welcome back to the PDB Situation Report. Joining me once again is former FBI counterintelligence operative and founding partner of the Georgetown Group, Eric o'. Neill. Eric, thank you very much for sticking around here on the Situation Report. This may seem like a strange question, but again, sticking with the Charlie Kirk assassination, is there any one thing that has stood out so far? It has surprised you? Or I mean, again, given your background, you've had a lot of experience, you've seen a lot of things. I'm just wondering whether any one thing stood out so far.

[D]

Well, so far, you know, after the shooting is kind of following a very unfortunate outline that we've seen before in these sort of shootings. This anger and this outrage that turns into violence. You know, one thing that did stand out to me that we've learned, the reason why is the fact that the shooter used a bolt action rifle, which would have allowed him to have one shot before Charlie's close protection moved in to protect them. So he would have had one shot to hit. Well, now we've learned that it turns out that this was a gun that his grandfather gave him. It was a very special weapon, and it's the one he had. I always wondered why he chose that instead of like an AR15 where he could have gotten off three or four shots in that time. But now we know.

[A]

Well, I'd like to thank Eric o', Neill, former FBI counterintelligence operative and founding partner, the Georgetown Group, for joining us here on THE Situation report. We had a couple of technical difficulties there during the second segment. Those were on my side. It happens when you're traveling and you're overseas. But anyway, we'll get it back on soon because his experience and insight is terrific and we'll have plenty to talk about at that point. But again, thank you to Eric o' Neill for joining us here on the Sit Rep. By the way, you did you know that if you were a premium member of the President's Daily Brief right now, you could avail yourself of, of a second episode in our brand new series for premium members. It's called the Day the World Almost Ended, which is a, it's a very cheery title. Tell you what, it may not be a cheery title, but it's an excellent series. This second episode takes us all the way back to the Cuban Missile Crisis when we look at the situation where one man's courage, one man's decision, basically kept the world from blowing up. The whole series looks at days in history when we were on the brink of destruction and somehow managed to pull back. And usually it was because of one person's courage. So again, that's the Day the World Almost Ended. Second episode is making its way to the launch pad, and you can access that by being a premium member. The President's Daily Brief just by visiting PDB premium.com All right, coming up next, Tick Tock gets a new deal between Washington and Beijing, but questions remain about whether it actually reduces the risks tied to the Chinese owned Apple. Under the agreement, TikTok's American assets will be transferred to US owners from China's ByteDance. The new owners are said to be a consortium including Oracle, Silver Lake and Andreessen Horowitz. Still, critics warn that the deal might not erase the app's roots in China or the potential access Beijing has to millions of Americans personal data. Lawmakers from both parties continue to describe TikTok as a surveillance tool with a video feature, raising concerns that this latest compromise is more political than practical. Joining me now is Steve Yates. He's the senior research Fellow for China and National Security Policy at the Heritage foundation, previously served in the White House for the vice president as Deputy National Security Adviser, good friend of the show, snappy dresser, quite witty as well. Steve, it's great to have you back on the Situation report.

[F]

Thank you, Mike. Pleasure to be back.

[A]

Now, let's, let's, I'm going to start with a big broad question here. Tell me what's going on with Tick Tock. Where are we at right now?

[F]

Well, this has been a slow motion development. There was a very important law that Congress passed that said that the Chinese Communist Party has been using TikTok as a weapon. They've been harvesting our data, manipulating our children and they have been censoring the truth by way of this tool. And that is all to serve Beijing's interests, not America's. And so the Congress in its wisdom passed a requirement that the ownership of TikTok's parent company ByteDance, divest at least 80% ownership and that the algorithm and data be in a friendly entity's complete control. That would address the, the primary national security concerns. Out of the ownership and information control elements of TikTok, there's still the broader questions of social media etc, but this was a pretty dramatic move. The President Trump famously in the latter part of his reelection campaign turned to TikTok, which he had not participated in in his first term, had advocated that the app be removed from government phones at the recommendation of his son Baron, saying to engage younger people in the campaign. And after meeting with success in that, they came into the White House and thought, well, we don't have a deal yet on this, but we don't want to turn this platform completely off. And that's when the search for new buyers came in. There has been a delay in implementation of this law. Some would question the legality of the extensions. But here we are now with a proposed group to buy 80% and follow these requirements and we're waiting for the deal to sign on the bottom line.

[A]

Okay, where do you stand on this? Is, is TikTok in its current state and its current form under its current ownership, is it a threat to national security?

[F]

100% it is in my view and I think there's been several use cases that would show some of the risks. But it really comes down to that ownership data and algorithm, those three elements and the, the data part, the data mining is something that goes on in commercial industry all the time. There's going to be risks on that. People might have a different line of where that is measurably more dangerous. The algorithm though, you can manipulate what goes into people's timelines. One of the Acid tests for this is. If you look at the algorithm for what content goes to the 18 to 35 year old Chinese users of social media, you'll see content that is encouraging them to pursue their careers. Heavy emphasis on hard sciences and engineering and things that would make a good commitment to the People's Republic if you want.

[D]

That's.

[A]

That's what, that's what the kids of America are watching too, right? Science.

[F]

They sort of have people in odd outfits doing inappropriate things, hitting the top of their time. Plus the communication functions of it sometimes also are promoting advertisements for illegal substances and basically it's dumbing down and distracting the same demographic for our, for our kids.

[A]

Is TikTok allowed in China? Can. I mean, I know what you're saying about the. The algorithm is different but inside of China can they access TikTok or do they have some other system?

[F]

They have, they have their version of, of this. So bytedance is a Chinese company, they do run social media inside China, but these things are siloed and you know, under a normal multinational model you might have siloed implementations of different apps and services. But if you take another use case of this where I think that there's some evidence of an issue after October 7 happened in Israel, instantaneously feeds were filled with radicalized messages that seemed to provoke, if not organize demonstrations, flash mob almost and in universities and capitals around the world, but hitting a lot of American audiences. And it's almost impossible to imagine that having been spontaneously the case. And so if you look at whether it was the Summer Of Love in 2020 or the Pro Palestinian, pro Hamas protests that broke out In America after October 7, there are some evidence out there that someone was turning the dial up on this. It was unlikely to be the US government and it wouldn't be a real commercial interest.

[A]

Yeah, I'm old enough to remember that the Summer of Love, I believe was actually 1969. I don't know what that happened in 2020. Now I wouldn't call that the Summer of Love, but whatever. Here's the thing about it is interesting because if you imagine, right. And this is not hard to imagine that the Russian regime or Xi Jinping's regime in China, even the Iranians to some extent, although they don't necessarily have all the same resources if their goal is to in a, in a low cost way to influence arts and minds in the West. Right, let's just narrow it down to the US then. You know, in the old days you had to do all sorts of things. You had to Pay journalists to, you know, put newspaper articles in. Maybe you got a radio ad at some point. Whatever it was, it was, it was low tech and it took a long time and you had a network of humans that you had to go through. And, and now the ability to split and divide, the ability to have very nuanced messages, right? Not, not that the average American is out there is, you know, is, you know, overly nuanced in the way that they review social media. But it is a remarkably effective tool at a relatively low cost for whether it's the Russians, the Chinese, or anyone else with resource and motivation to start using our freedoms against us. Right? And they, they're very smart. They look and they say, okay, well, look, racial divide, right? Divisiveness, right? That's a very effective tool. Let's focus on that. Right? So the next thing you know, they're, they're just, they're they're blanketing social media with messages that then other people who are unwitting, they don't mean to, but they're looking and then they're forwarding that on. It's, it's an amazing world that we live in. And I think most people don't understand just how aggressive other nations not, you know, necessarily aligned with ours, how aggressively they use social media.

[F]

No, I think that this is definitely one of those things where the elephant was sneaking in under the tent, but before we knew it, it was completely inside the tent. In a past life, you knew me involved in some silly business of politics. And in that time we were learning how some of these technologies could be used to engage voters, move campaigns, and of course, others were figuring out how to spread nasty things about me. And, you know, there's nothing really nasty about me to spread, but somehow they made this stuff up. And that was a microcosm. But if you imagine an unlimited supply of population, an almost unlimited budget because of very friendly investment in trade, policies of the United States transferring wealth, technology and opportunity to you, and now this tool that can micro target in profound ways. You can do very sophisticated things with it. But even worse though, if you just want it as a blunt object, you're not looking to persuade, but you're looking to distract and demoralize. If you're just hypnotizing and basically getting people to sit on the couch with their bag of Cheetos and do nothing or worse, damage them psychologically by just giving them odd programming, you've done damage to what should be the productive employable demographic in America, the recruitable military graphic in America the generation on which old guys like me at least need to retire on top of. And that hits at fundamental national health in a way that never could have been done before.

[A]

Yeah, yeah, I, I think, yeah, I want to, I want to pick up on this after the break, but I, I think that the most damning statement you can make about Tick Tock and, and why it's important that you know the structure of the ownership of it change is what you referenced earlier, which is the west version of TikTok is not allowed in China. And there's a, there, there's a reason for that. And I think that's all people really should have to hear to say, okay, yeah, maybe there, maybe there is something here that we need to be focused on. But it's tough because then you turn to TikTok and you got another damn raccoon video. So anyway, listen, Steve, you'll stay right where you are, man. Don't go anywhere. We've got to take a quick break and then we'll be back with more from Steve Yates and the situation report. Stick around. Hey, Mike Baker here. Now this podcast is brought to you in part by Stash. Imagine investing without ever picking a single stock. Well, with Stash, the experts handle the hard part for you. Stash isn't just another investing app. It's a registered investment advisor that combines automated investing with expert guidance so you don't have to worry about figuring it out on your own. Choose from personalized investments or let Stash's award winning smart portfolio do the work for you. With Stash, investing doesn't feel like gambling. It's simple. It's smart, stress free so your money can finally start working as hard as you do. Get access to world class financial advice with personalized guidance. Just three dollar monthly subscriptions. That's right. I said a $3 monthly subscription. Stash has already helped millions of Americans reach their financial goals. So don't let your money sit around. Put it to work with stash. Go to get.stash.com PDB that's get.stash.com Pdb to see how you can receive $25 towards your first stock purchase and a few important disclosures. That's get.stash.com PDB paid non client endorsement, not representative of all clients and not a guarantee. Investment advisory services offered by Stash Investments LLC and SEC Registered Investment advisor. Investing involves risk offer is subject to terms and conditions.

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[A]

Welcome back to the PDB Situation Report. Joining me once again is Senior Research Fellow for China and National Security Policy at the Heritage Foundation. That, of course would be Mr. Steve Yates. Steve, thanks very much for staying put. What do you hear about the next iteration of TikTok? Who's buying it?

[F]

Oracle is at the core of this conglomerate be a partnership with a few others that have been current investors in the enterprise so far, but they have come up with technological way that the data, US data stays in the US that there's, there's some ambiguity about what happens with the algorithm. Legally it has to be out of the control of the of the parent company ByteDance and the Chinese Communist Party, therefore. But there's questions of is it going to be partially licensed and then kind of adapted to a new version. There's talk of it being relaunched as a new app in this new ecosystem. All of those pieces sound like it's moving in the right direction. And Ambassador Greer, U.S. trade Representative, said that if there's any question before this is finalized that there's any issue about these compliance issues, that President Trump is prepared to just pull TikTok down and wait till they're ready to meet negotiations on the right terms, that's the right thing to say. So that's kind of where we are.

[A]

Okay, but do you think that the, the president's serious about that and the reason I ask and this is sort of disconnected to what we're talking about, but I've been fascinated by the reluctance on The White House part, to slap secondary tariffs on China for their purchase of Russian energy. You know, they did it with, with India, India's number two. So then you think, well, why wouldn't you do it with number one? But of course they've got the trade negotiations. So I'm just wondering whether, you know, at the end of the day, is the White House inclined to really take any significant measures? I mean, I know obviously that at the start of the tariff wars there was, you know, okay, we're going to hit you with a 10,000% tariff or whatever it was. But at this stage with TikTok, do you think that the White House means what they say, that they, they would pull it?

[F]

Well, if you asked me a couple weeks ago on TikTok specifically, I did not feel like it was moving in the right direction and I wasn't sure where the off ramp was going to be. And of course, I would readily admit I didn't have perfect visibility into what the President was thinking or what the game plan was for the team involved in negotiations. But there was no public acknowledgment that negotiations were even happening on that. There was just the successive 90 day delays for this deadline. But once Ambassador Greer came out of this last round of talks and was speaking very specifically about this, it gives the impression that there was a bit more seriousness about this from the Chinese side. Maybe they got the impression themselves that the President would in fact do that and the negotiating team sounded authorized to make the threat. And of course, the worst thing you can do in going in to negotiate with an adversary generally, but especially with China, is to say that you're prepared to pull something and then you prove unwilling to do so. So I have to believe at this point he was ready to let it go dark. I don't think he would have thought of that as a permanent outcome. He would try to think of that as something that would stun them back to the negotiations.

[A]

Yeah, yeah. I mean, it is a fascinating look at sort of a President who's far more, what's the word, transactional than any previous president. Right. So, which is partly why I think people have such a hard time predicting, you know, from one day to the next where the White House might, may be going with their negotiations. So let's, let's imagine that Oracle leads this charge. You know, they can, you know, scrape up enough fat stacks to, to buy the, the business in today's world. Right. And there sits the CCP over ByteDance. But in today's world, do you think it is possible to build a great big beautiful wall between ByteDance and the new version of TikTok.

[F]

I assume it's logically possible and technologically possible. And I'd be the last person to go in and tell someone how to code this to make it real. And also, it's also not the model I would have chosen. I mean, I, I'm really kind of bothered by the idea that we have some of the wealthiest, most advanced tech entrepreneurs in the entire planet. In the United States of America with lots of other impressive software platforms, we have a wild tech genius entrepreneur and Elon Musk who can do things like make cars, drive themselves and have rockets land themselves. And how is it possible we weren't able to come up with some kind of a video sharing social media platform that could have competed with this? And if the likes of the President and big stars and sports figures would go on and mesmerize themselves with their own silly American algorithm, how could that not work? So I, I'm still a little lost how the, the various tech industry players in the US weren't able to even do something along these lines. What is this magical secret sauce? And if there is something truly magical about that, then it does raise the question you're rightly pointing to. If there's something unique about that algorithm that made it more powerful and compelling, then whoever bought it isn't going to want to lose that. And if they don't lose that, how is that not going to be a back door?

[A]

Yeah, exactly. And that's again, hey look, I'm, I'm with you, right? You and me are in the sort of the non technical boat, right? Rowing around and hoping, you know, somebody in it will tell us how to do things. But I, I, I'm skeptical, I'm cynical from my perspective because I know how operationally aggressive the Chinese regime is. And so I, I agree with you. I would have thought that we would have said, hey screw it, we're shutting it down and here's a brand new app and it's a shiny object. Now I think they probably in part didn't do it because, well, in sort of that 45 year old to 70 year old mindset saying, well, but look, there's already all these hundreds of millions of users and how we ever get those people, but what we've already learned from young people is that they're very quick to migrate or to adopt, you know, new sites or apps and you know, you know, the old people find one and say, well, I'm going to get on Facebook and see what my kids doing. And the kids already off of Facebook book and gone to MySpace or, or net.

[F]

Heaven forbid they can't go back to.

[A]

That, whatever, whatever that was used to be. Yeah, so I, it is, it is fascinating to me that they, they, they've chosen this route and again, I'm skeptical about, about their ability to separate this. So, and, and also, look, if there was some incredible, you know, space age algorithm that they didn't want to lose by shutting it down. The Chinese regime has spent decades reverse engineering all western technology. So you would think that we would have the ability to do the same, say, okay, well let's take a look at that algorithm and figure it out and make it ourselves, you know, give them a taste of their own medicine. But you know what I'm going to do right now, Steve? I'm going to climb off of my soapbox and ask you another question. Let me, let me ask you. This is a very, very open ended, go where that, where you want to, but it kind of touches on tick tock. It touches on a variety of social media sites. Give me your impressions of, of social media in the aftermath of, of the Charlie Kirk assassination.

[F]

Well, there's a lot of elements that really I think are quite concerning and I think that probably a lot of the public is getting exposed to what they, what they might have thought was dark web chat areas where there's, there's conversations that are too wild to even go on what are I think adequately outrageous social media platforms already. And so the shooter in the, the Kirk assassination was in active conversations, the discord and some other areas. And there's this question of are people getting radicalized by way of these apps? Is there something about the community guidelines in these apps that needs to be looked at about what actually incites violence or enables violence versus the boundary of free speech and association. And, and I think that there's just a lot of concern. Also take that awful video. I happened to be live on air on television when the shooting occurred and then they just showed the video. Frankly, I was shocked. They actually showed him being shot on air. I mean it was a recording that they were playing back. I'm just amazed. If it was live, you'd expect it to go by. I was kind of amazed that they showed that and then was reacting to it. But that was a microcosm in television. It was. Then there's choices for social media platforms for what do you show, what kind of commentary around that do you show, what's the next video after that? That you put into someone's feed and then do you use that to make them more radicalized one way or the other? There is deep, deep science that all of the social media platforms are informed by that that they put in to try to make you angry. Because if you are angry, you will remain. And if you remain, you're open to more engagement, more advertising. They can monetize your addiction. And so you see this, then it has that effect. Then you take it back to where we're talking about tech talk before. This isn't just domestic actors that could be at play. What if foreign actors want to inflame this? What could they do to raise questions? We already see the discussion sadly, before his funeral. God bless his family and everyone else. A terribly destructive the line of debate about the role of Israel and anti Semitism in social media and politics. And was that a part of this? Well, that is a hundred percent tied into our algorithms pushing those conversations to what demographics and dialing them up or down. So I think there's a lot of troubling things, but all the more reason why we, if we can't settle what's constitutionally protected, clearly among our citizenry, we should at least be very, very clear beyond our sovereign shores. We want to have safeguards, and that's not easy. But that, I think has to be where a lot of the focus is.

[A]

Yeah, I've been a little bit surprised at some of the conversations about, well, you know, was he radicalized online? Well, one thing we learned from the global war on terror or gwat, because, you know, I love a good acronym, is that. Yeah, look, that was a prime location for radicalization of, you know, impressionable young people in particular. Yeah. And so we know that. And it's, it's really no different. You're, you're playing off the same, you know, leverage points, you're pushing the same buttons. In a sense, you're just, your objective may be slightly different or the, or the cause may be slightly different, but you're still looking to break someone down and then build them up in your own likeness and then get them to go out and do something that you want them to do. So I've got, you know, again, I'm not a Luddite, but I have a lot of concerns and, and I think we, we won't know how much damage social media has done for quite some time yet. But I think down the road, we're going to be shocked at a certain point when we find out or when we realize with enough data points, just just how damaging it can be. I'm not. I'm not suggesting we get rid of social media, God forbid. Unless we just keep the raccoon videos. I love having you on the show, Steve. It's always a delight. I don't use that word loosely, but it's. It's always great to have you on with your insight, your experience, and I hope you'll come back, man. Thanks very much, Mike.

[F]

It's a pleasure.

[A]

Excellent. Thank you, Steve. Steve Yates, senior research fellow for China and National Security policy at the Heritage Foundation. Excellent. Hey, Mike Baker here. Now, you've probably heard me talk about the great company Jacked Up Fitness and their amazing all in one home gym. Look for home fitness. That thing's a game changer. Well, now I got something else to tell you. It's coming from Don and the terrific team over at Jacked Up Fitness. And they know that many people are short on time and also short on money, but still want to get fit. So here's the thing. You can now start your fitness journey for under $60 and in just six minutes each day. And for those of you of a certain age, here comes a blast from the past. Introducing the all new Shake Weight by Jacked up fitness. That's right, 15 years ago, the original Shake Weight shook the world. And now the fitness legend returns. Bigger, better and built to perform. And why now? Well, I'm glad you asked, because science has finally caught up with the importance of explosive power and fast twitch muscle training. Something that the Shake Weight delivers in a compact, powerful way for beginners. For heavy lifters and serious athletes alike, the spring loaded weights on each end send shockwaves of energy throughout your whole upper body, forcing your muscles to contract up to 240 times per minute. Beginners can tone and tighten their arms, shoulders and chest. Lifters can prime their upper bodies in between sets and get that final burn. While athletes can sharpen reaction times and build explosive power for that competitive edge, the Shake Weight is no joke. Seriously, it's serious training made simple. If you're looking for a fun way to jump start or supercharge your fitness routine, get the all new Shake Weight by Jacked Up Fitness. Just go to jackedupshakeway.com Again, that's Jacked Up Shake Weight. And Doug.

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[A]

All right, well, that's all the time that we have for this week's PDB Situation report. Look, if you have any questions or comments or if you got a humorous anecdote or maybe a limerick, I don't think people do limericks anymore. Just reach out to [e-mail] as you know, every month or so we take that big bag of mail and we sort through it and we take the best comments and questions and we stuff them into one episode. We call Ask Me Anything. And so we got another one getting ready to hit the launch pad. So keep your large cards and and letters coming. All right? Finally, to listen to the podcast of this show ad free. You can do it. You can do it very simply. Just become a premium member of the President's Daily brief by visiting PDB premium.com I'm Mike Baker, and until next time, stay informed, stay safe, stay cool.