‘Cape Fear’ Episode 4: Dude, Where’s Your Toe?

Summary

The Prestige TV Podcast – 'Cape Fear’ Episode 4: Dude, Where’s Your Toe?

Podcast Date: June 19, 2026
Hosts: Joanna Robinson & Rob Mahoney
Show Discussed: Cape Fear, Episode 4: "Pierced"

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Episode Overview

Joanna Robinson and Rob Mahoney break down Episode 4 of "Cape Fear," titled “Pierced.” They dive deep into the episode’s visual style, Southern specificity, wild and trashy storytelling choices, and expanding conspiracy theory board. The hosts also interact with intensive and hilarious listener mail, analyzing theories about drugs, family secrets, and the ever-increasing “incest” card count on their wall-of-chaos.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Directorial Flourish and Tone

• Visual Style:

  • Directed by Reed Morano, noted for her Emmy and DGA award-winning work on "The Handmaid’s Tale."
  • Joanna: “She always has a very distinctive visual, splashy style… this episode we get dramatically canted angles… the saturation cranked up to a million…” (03:52)

• Tone of the Series

  • Both hosts openly debate whether "Cape Fear" is good, "great," or just wild fun.
  • Rob: “There are things that are happening on the show that are just batshit insane. I’m having a great time.” (04:01)

2. Southern Accents & Savannah References

• Listener Mailbag segment highlights the overabundance of Savannah references.
• Joanna reads from "Tim," who tracks every Savannah-specific namedrop – leading to, in Rob’s words, “an uncanny” level of regional specificity (07:15).
• Accent breakdown from Southern friend Katie Rich:
  • Anna Baryshnikov: “nailing it.”
  • Kate Winslet’s son: "wobbles in and out."
  • Amy Adams: “very poor…” “seems to make her uncomfortable.” (05:13)

3. Easter Eggs, Cameos & Listener Theories

• Cameos:
  • Wesley Strick, writer of the 1991 Cape Fear film, appears in the ER doctor role (07:44).
• Dream cameo: Kelsey Grammer as a Sideshow Bob-esque character (08:02).
• Fan Email: Connects Nick Antosca’s previous show "Brand New Cherry Flavor" to Cape Fear’s DNA—Lynchian, body horror, cycles of revenge.

4. Drug Theories: What’s Tom Taking?

• Listeners propose LSD, GHB, Ketamine; consensus leans toward LSD.
• Joanna, quoting listener Reese: “...the drug Tom is taking should 100% be microdosing LSD… GHB makes you feel... super drunk. So it wouldn’t be something he would be taking while waiting in his son’s hospital room.” (11:10)

5. Santería, Symbolism & Religious Motifs

• Intro opens on Max performing a Santería ritual, an element discussed for its symbolic significance and depiction.
• Listener Melody explains pomegranate seeds, animal sacrifice, evil eye, and the practice’s colors (white/blue) as markers.
• Joanna: “If the show is presenting Max Katie as a righteous and true practitioner of Santeria, that is— I would be shocked, frankly, bad and problematic... He's taken this, you know, practice and twisted it for his own purposes.” (19:58)

6. Trash or Peace Theater – The Conspiracy Board

• Returning to their “board” of show clues, the hosts add new cards:
  • Snake stuff (“there’s so much snake stuff!” 23:13)
  • Dead snake (RIP Rose)
  • Nipple piercing, country club, AI Sloth drawing, pool therapy
  • Persistent "incest" speculation, which is joked as consuming the whole board and possibly needing its own oversized card (67:54)

7. Menace, Manipulation & Max Cady’s Endgame

• Max’s ambiguous motives: revenge, leverage, Ruining Anna?
• Joanna: “He’s just going around gathering leverage on people or compromising them… That’s really scary. And it’s scary how dumb the Bowdoins are...” (16:13)

8. Tech Paranoia & Surveillance

• Key motif: “you could be watched, recorded, or compelled at any time”—spanning from camcorders (Juliette Lewis’s character) to one-party consent audio recordings and more (35:06).
• Rob: “...tech paranoia… It comes through with Smiley and the idea of a one party consent audio state.” (35:13)

9. Incest, Parentage & Trashy Soap Energy

• Major speculation that both Natalie and Nevaeh are Max Cady’s daughters (52:31, 52:34), making their budding relationship both a “trashiest moment” and a brewing soapy disaster.
• Joanna: “I feel bad for Natalie… she’s being manipulated and it’s probably her half sister. And you know what? That’s a cautionary tale, kids.” (52:45)

10. Parenting Fails and ‘Too Dumb to Live’ Awards

• Listener Nicole’s email (40:37) eviscerates the Bowdoins’ response to Zach biting off his toe.
• Joanna: “Anna… might be Anna every week, honestly, but it’s definitely Anna.” (58:25)
• Rob: “She showed up to a known murderer’s house and was like, hi...” (58:29)

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments (with Timestamps)

• Visual Style & Directing

  • Joanna: “She (Reed Morano) always has, like, a very distinctive, splashy style... dramatically canted angles...” (03:52)
  • Rob: “Saturation cranked up to a million.” (03:55)

• On Southern Accents

  • Katie Rich (via Joanna): “Anna Baryshnikov is nailing it…” (05:13)

• On Snake Stuff

  • Rob, on pet snakes: “I can’t wrap my head around the kind of pet having where you have to make a pass or the snake might wrap itself around your head.” (22:34)
  • Joanna: “There’s so much snake stuff… Max was very, like, cozy with the charmer snakes and then rip that one snake.” (23:13)

• Parenting & Therapy

  • Joanna (reading Nicole’s email): “If my daughter bit off her toe and swallowed it… she would have immediately been in the best psychiatric care Savannah had to offer…” (40:37)
  • Rob: “Your kid biting off their toe, as the email alludes to, would be the only thing you think and talk about for a [while].” (41:32)

• On Max’s Threats & Motives:

  • “He’s just going around gathering leverage on people or compromising them… That’s really scary.” – Joanna (16:13)

• Trashiest Moment

  • Joanna: “It’s incest.” (59:05)
  • Rob: “At least one of those characters doesn’t know.” (59:10)

• Best/Worst Line Read

  • Rob: “Hey, nice car, nice ride. I’m jealous. I’m jealous.” (61:08)
  • Joanna: “It’s a little Tommy Wiseau.”; “The relish that Javier Bardem puts on ridesharing.” (61:08–61:26)

• Conspiracy Board Mayhem

  • Joanna, on the evolving board: “I am concerned that incest might need to be, like, right in the middle of the board… It’s going to connect to so many things.” (67:54)

• On Tech Paranoia

  • “Not only you could be watched at any time, but you could be recorded at any time.” – Joanna (35:06)

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Timestamps of Major Segments

• [01:25] Welcome, Episode Purpose
• [04:48] Introduction of the Conspiracy Board
• [05:13] Southern Accents Listener Mail
• [07:15] Savannah Local References Segment
• [09:15] Serrated knife discussion (kitchen accuracy!)
• [11:10] Drug microdosing theories
• [12:56] Max Cady’s criminal history & show’s approach vs. previous versions
• [17:24] Santería and religious symbolism deep-dive
• [23:13] Snake stuff & Smiley Pit segment
• [24:00] Country club vs. members only club debate
• [28:01] AI Sloth Drawing/Natalie parentage visual clue
• [36:31] Natalie's learner's permit frustration (Chekhov’s car?)
• [39:41] Therapy, Tom’s brother, family secrets
• [46:42] Pool scene and "Dive Therapy"
• [50:02] Nipple piercing and Nevaeh’s dangerous influence
• [52:31] Incest speculation officially on the board
• [58:25] Too Dumb to Live & Trashiest Moment awards
• [61:08] Best/Worst line read (“Nice car, nice car. I’m jealous.”)
• [65:00] Conspiracy board live update & closing thoughts

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Engaging Listener Interactions

• Accents, kitchen details, drug knowledge, and hyper-specific Savannah local references dominate the show's reader mail.
• Contributing fun, theories, and corrections, the audience is as integral to the breakdown as the hosts, keeping things vibrant and participatory.

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Final Thoughts and Questions Raised

• The episode pushes the boundaries of “trash or peace,” with mounting secrets, unreliable parents, and jaw-dropping soap tropes (incest! piercings! snake deaths!).
• Joanna and Rob’s energetic banter, playful theorizing, and embrace of the show’s absurdities make the podcast as much soap opera as the series they cover.
• Central questions: What is Max Cady’s deeper goal? Who is related to whom? Will the cats and bunnies survive? Has the conspiracy board become more complicated than the show itself?

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Useful for Newcomers

If you haven’t watched the episode, this discussion richly covers the plot, themes, prominent visual and audio motifs, and the wild guesses igniting the fandom. You’ll find running jokes, deep character analysis, meta-commentary on TV storytelling—and plenty of spoilers, so listen/read accordingly!

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Contact: Send theories, corrections, or Savannah Easter eggs to [e-mail] or [e-mail]

Next Episode: Stay tuned for more mayhem, more strings, and more trashy twists as Joanna and Rob's "Cape Fear" odyssey continues.

Transcript

[Joanna Robinson]

This episode is brought to you by America's cookout classics, Heinz, Kraft and Oscar Mayer.

[Rob Mahoney]

This summer, we're celebrating 250 years of American cookouts with all the classics, Heinz, Kraft and Oscar Mayer.

[Joanna Robinson]

Rob, what's your ideal cookout scenario?

[Rob Mahoney]

First of all, I want you on the ox. I trust you with that sacred responsibility to pick our music. I'm going to have to man the grill and I'm going to need like a copious amount of condiments. I need every possible fix in imaginable.

[Joanna Robinson]

Well, make sure to top your burger with only the best Heinz ketchup and Kraft singles. And you know it's not a cookout without Heinz ketchup and mustard.

[Rob Mahoney]

Different vibes, same ingredients. We all know it's not a cookout without Heinz, Kraft and Oscar Mayer. Shop at your local retailer this summer.

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[Joanna Robinson]

Hello. Welcome back to the Prestige TV podcast feed. I'm Joanna Robinson.

[Rob Mahoney]

I'm Rob Mahoney.

[Joanna Robinson]

And believe it or not, we're here to once again talk about Cape Fear.

[Rob Mahoney]

They keep allowing us back into this building to do this and I don't know why.

[Joanna Robinson]

Actually, we have not left since we were here for the Widow's Bay finale. If you did not catch it, we did do the Widow's Bay finale live. That was a fun time. So you guys might want to check that out. Anything else we should say? There are plans to cover the final season of the Bear upcoming. Yes. Um, it will be Van Lathan and Charles Holmes who have been covering it for the last few seasons as it should be gonna bring it home. So that is what you can look forward to. But we meanwhile are in Savannah, Georgia for the foreseeable.

[Rob Mahoney]

We couldn't bear to be locked into a pressure packed kitchen. We need this instead.

[Joanna Robinson]

We need the slow sweltering boil of Savannah, Georgia. If folks wanna reach us and they have with their thoughts on Cape Fear, how do they reach us?

[Rob Mahoney]

They can always reach us. Joe as you know@prestige [e-mail]. but in particular, for your Cape Fear related thoughts, theories, weird AI Slop turned fan art. Think of a baby [e-mail].

[Joanna Robinson]

yeah, don't send us your AI slop fan art.

[Rob Mahoney]

No, by that I mean you have to make the slop and then actually draw something from the slop.

[Joanna Robinson]

Yeah, I would prefer them they not make the slop in the first place because that costs a bottle of water. But, like, maybe find a naturally occurring slob and you want to make fan art of it.

[Rob Mahoney]

It's a great point.

[Joanna Robinson]

Episode four is called Pierced and we know why. It's written by Tara. The fork stabbing into the fruit, I think is what it's about. Must be written by Tara Shivkumar and directed by Reid Marano. And as I mentioned before, Reid is a director's name that really caught my attention. She was trained as a cinematographer before she became a director. And she first popped on my radar when she directed the pilot of Handmaid's Tale or maybe all of that season of Handmaid's Tale. I think she did a whole season. And that first season of Handmaid's Tale was like, such a huge deal when it came out. It's a great season of television. But she's the first woman in history to win both the Emmy and the DGA for directing a drama series. In the same year for Handmaid's Tale, she also did cinematography on Frozen River, Kill youl Darlings, and the Skeleton Twins. Like, you know, great movies. So, like, hiring her, she always has, like, very distinctive visual, splashy style. And in this episode we get, like, dramatically canted angles and like, all this other stuff.

[Rob Mahoney]

So I would say the saturation cranked up to a million.

[Joanna Robinson]

Oh, yeah, the blues were bluing. What did you think of this episode, either visually or anything else?

[Rob Mahoney]

I'm having a great time. I don't. Again, I don't know week to week if this is any good. There are lines that we're laughing at for a variety of reasons. There are things that are happening on the show that are just batshit insane.

[Joanna Robinson]

We had a great time watching it.

[Rob Mahoney]

It's so much fun.

[Joanna Robinson]

Yeah.

[Rob Mahoney]

And so whether that's the intended effect, I suspect it is one way or another sometimes. But I'm having a great time with it.

[Joanna Robinson]

Yeah. So welcome back to Trash or Peace Theater. We are here to talk about Cape Fear. I also enjoyed watching this episode. Can I say this is a good show? I don't think so. Can I say it's a Great show. Maybe, honestly, maybe. For our summer purposes, we will be bringing back the conspiracy board at the end of the episode that we introduced in last week's podcast episode. But throughout this discussion of the episode, we will be adding cards to the pile of what we will be pinning on the board later.

[Rob Mahoney]

There's so much every week.

[Joanna Robinson]

I know. And if we missed anything, press htvotify.com or thinkofabycarrotmail.com all right, mailbag. First and foremost, we did get a report from a real Southerner friend of the pod, Katie Rich. I do resent the implication that you're not a real. I just don't think a Texan, a Texas boy, should be weighing in on a Savannah, Georgia accent.

[Rob Mahoney]

I think what we've proven as Texans is we can weigh in on whatever we goddamn well please. And we will. Whether you like it or not, this

[Joanna Robinson]

is a bad look on you. But Katie Rich, unprompted friend of the pod, listener of the pod, was like, hey, do you want some accent checks for me, an actual Southerner? And I said, yes, please. And she said, anna Baryshnikov is nailing it. Okay, so shout out the Nepo baby. Anna Baryshnikov, great job. On the other Nepo baby front, she said, kate Winslet's son wobbles in and out, but is good when it's there. I guess that's the British expertise. That's what she said. Um, I asked her what her grade on Amy Adams was. She said, oh, very poor. But it's kind of more that it seems to make her uncomfortable to use it. She's so weirdly muted. Patrick Wilson is definitely more comfortable with it. So that is the assessment so far. But I'd be curious to hear from other Southerners what they think of the accent work on this show. I'm very interested. We did get a great email from our listener Tim, who went through and timestamped all of the like, hey, did you realize this show is set in Savannah? Moments the first couple episodes and I just want to read, read them through it was.

[Rob Mahoney]

Honestly, seeing them all together was frankly embarrassing for the show.

[Joanna Robinson]

So, opening title, Savannah, Georgia. In episode one, Tim was like, cool Leopold's ice cream shirt. That's what Patrick Wilson is wearing at the barbecue in episode one. Sure. Obligatory Coastal Empire beer. Subtle if you know, you know, things for locals. Cool variety of on location shots, podcaster interaction, SGLP event. Nice to see Cougar, some thoughts on that. And then black coffee from Savannah roasters. So odd. This is where it Goes off the rails, in my opinion. Tim says, I work at the Humane Society on Sally Mood Drive. Why? Or the Savannah bananas who give him. Who gave him drugs? Enough already. So Tim has tapped out. Savannah expert. Tim has tapped out by the end of episode two. But I did request an ongoing running list from Tim or anyone else of all of these Savannah references that may be flying overheads. We got a scad location inside of this episode, but I'm curious what else we might be missing.

[Rob Mahoney]

Oh, we have fully crossed the bridge, too, from, like, subtle regional specificity into we're just gonna name drop all these things for absolutely no reason in ways that real humans kind of don't really do in exactly this sort of way. It's so uncanny at this point.

[Joanna Robinson]

Yeah, you know what? There's a lot that's uncanny about this show. We got a ton of emails. Let's go through a few. Oh, Ted let us know that Wesley Strick, the screenwriter of the 91 film, played the ER doctor trying to reset Max Kiddy's arm in the hospital.

[Ad Read Announcer 2]

Very cool.

[Joanna Robinson]

So that's a very cool fear verse cameo. In terms of, like, who else might show up from the fear verse? My favorite suggestion we got from our listeners is that Kelsey Grammer, who voiced Sideshow Bob in the Cape Fear episode of the Simpsons, should show up. And I'm like. And, like, step on a rake or something. I think that would be really fun. Like, what do you think?

[Rob Mahoney]

Yeah, what would his role be? What do you want him to do in this show?

[Joanna Robinson]

I don't know, but he has to go, like, into the microphone.

[Rob Mahoney]

Goes without saying. Maybe he could be a fellow inmate in a flashback somewhere.

[Joanna Robinson]

Oh, that'd be really fun. We got an email from our listener Matt about the creator of this show, Nick and Tosca, because I had, like, read some of his credits, but I missed this one. Matt said that he co created a brilliant show on Netflix, K called Brand New Cherry Flavor. Have you seen this?

[Rob Mahoney]

I haven't, but it's one that's been on my list perpetually because I really like Rosa Salazar.

[Joanna Robinson]

You are such a Rosa Salazar guy.

[Rob Mahoney]

I don't know how to take that,

[Joanna Robinson]

but it's true compliment, you know, for, like, Maddie's number one boy. You're gonna. You're gonna vibe with Rosa Salazar. It's a wicked little Lynchian series about Hollywood in the 90s with a magnetic Rosa Salazar. Kathryn Keener and Manny Jacinto. That's for me.

[Rob Mahoney]

Katherine Keener's for all of us. Let's be real about that.

[Joanna Robinson]

It's a wild ride that incorporates witchcraft, sexual politics and the movie industry. I see echoes of it in Cape Fear with psychological terror, cycles of revenge and light body horror. So some fun. You know, if people are like, I have, I have not trashed or pieced enough with Cape Fear. Perhaps brand new cherry flavor is for you. So fun advice from Matt. Thank you so much. We got a lot of emails about cutting your tomatoes with a serrated knife.

[Rob Mahoney]

Yeah, what was the verdict on that?

[Joanna Robinson]

Guess what? You were right. I didn't doubt you though. You did.

[Rob Mahoney]

You were open minded about the serrated knife situation.

[Joanna Robinson]

But yes, one should use a serrated knife. And the only reason that Max Katie pinched the tomato is because he was using a chef's knife and not a serrated knife.

[Rob Mahoney]

Please do report back if you have. If you want to dabble with a serrated knife in your tomato slicing. I'd be curious to hear your reports.

[Joanna Robinson]

If a nice knife company wants to send us a serrated tomato knife. We did get a listener who like sent us a link and I was like, but actually it wasn't that expensive. Maybe we should just make Spotify buy us tomato knife.

[Rob Mahoney]

My only problem with it is just in the realm of one utility kitchen tools. I mean, I just have too much stuff. You know, I can't have a knife that only cuts tomatoes.

[Joanna Robinson]

You do have a pan just for Madeline cookies.

[Rob Mahoney]

No comment.

[Joanna Robinson]

Okay, fair enough. On the drug front, we got a lot, like no one can agree on on what it is exactly that Tom is microdosing.

[Rob Mahoney]

I believe we got no fewer than like eight different very confident assertions of like, oh no, this is definitely ketamine. Oh, this is definitely microdosing lsd. Oh, this is definitely ghb.

[Joanna Robinson]

Yes, those are the three main candidates is lsd, GHB and ketamine. I will say that like Reese's email about LSD was sort of the most compelling to me because Reese was just like really nagging all of the other options. Barring some bizarre rare drug or completely inaccurate portrayal of some other drug, the drug Tom is taking should 100% be microdosing. LSD. You don't microdose mushrooms in liquid form. GHB makes you feel super drunk, super fast. So it wouldn't be something he would be taking while waiting in his son's hospital room. The only other plausible drug would be ketamine. But I don't believe you would take it that way either. My guess is that at some point point it will get switched out for something making that Mind control drug. You meant maybe that mind control drug you mentioned, or maybe macro dose of LSD to make him freak out. And then Katie was like, our listener, Katie, it's definitely gonna be. Jury's still out, but. But LSD is sort of like an

[Rob Mahoney]

interesting, you know, all interesting theories. I feel more confident than ever in our uncertainty of what this drug is.

[Joanna Robinson]

Correct. I just don't think it's thc. That's like. Some other people were like, it's just thc. I was like, I don't think that's what's happening.

[Rob Mahoney]

I don't think so either. I did find the experience of reading these emails to be highly educational. I learned about some drugs I've never heard of before. So, you know, it's an ed. It's. It's really a journey for all of us.

[Joanna Robinson]

What is Cape Fear if not an educational program truly about the perils of living in Savannah, Georgia, and interacting with a lot of animals. Okay, fun fact from our listener, Jessica Trish, who shows up with Ethan Embry in the previous episode at the pool, is played by Sunny Mabre, I guess is how you pronounce her name, which is Ethan Embry's real wife. They married for the first time in 2005, divorced in 2012, and then got remarried in 2015. So a Hollywood love story.

[Rob Mahoney]

A Hollywood love story and mirrors the chaotic energy that they have on the show.

[Joanna Robinson]

I really love it. Anything else? We did get an interesting email from our listener, Nick, who was talking about the way in which Max Cady is presented in this show versus the 90s version, in the 60s version, about specifically sort of, like, sexual assault as Max Cady's crime in the previous two iterations, but not, you know, it's just merely murder, you know, in this iteration, but removing the sexual assault element. Like, what does that do to the story? You know, we've already talked about the fact that, like, there's no doubt in our minds when we're watching the previous versions that Max Cady did what he was convicted for. He definitely did it. Even if Nick Nolte's character in the 90s version, like, buried some evidence. But, like, he definitely did it here. We're meant to, as you said from the jump, sort of like, question, what's going on? I still don't have any questions about that. But, like, the show wants us to ask that question for sure.

[Rob Mahoney]

I have questions about the specifics. Clearly, this is a menacing, terrifying man who is.

[Joanna Robinson]

What did he do to get that watch off that car salesman?

[Rob Mahoney]

Nothing.

[Joanna Robinson]

Good.

[Rob Mahoney]

Yeah, yeah. He's threatening lots of people at this point. Not just the Bowdoins. Right. Going around messing with guys like the guy at the car dealership. Women like the one who came up and tried to come onto him while he was having his ice cream cone. It's like there is a level of terror to him that transcends this personal fixation.

[Joanna Robinson]

Anyone who gets in his way or tells him no of some kind or irritates him, he feels justified in menacing them in some way or another, to varying degrees.

[Rob Mahoney]

Very chill stuff.

[Joanna Robinson]

But what is kissing Ana in this episode if not some kind of sexual assault? I will say so I don't think it's entirely absent from this show.

[Rob Mahoney]

It's a forced moment.

[Joanna Robinson]

Yeah.

[Rob Mahoney]

It's incredibly uncomfortable. The two actors are also playing it in such a fascinating way where it's like there is a familiarity to what is happening, even if it is unwelcome and aggressive.

[Joanna Robinson]

Yes, absolutely. Last but not least, I think before we go into sort of like our scene by scene, is that Matt, who is not watching the show but listening to the podcast, shout out. You sickos out there. You're very special to us.

[Rob Mahoney]

Just the realest ones, honestly, to go along for an audio only journey for a show you're not watching.

[Joanna Robinson]

We did get a lot of emails from people saying you didn't remark upon the fact that Nevaeh's name is Heaven spelled backwards. And you know what? We didn't. And we should have, because that's exactly the kind of show we're watching here.

[Rob Mahoney]

Right, let's lower the bar. As far as what we want to talk about on this pod, absolutely.

[Joanna Robinson]

But Matt said one thing that occurred to me listening to you all, is if there's a character Angel X slash Nevaeh, which is obviously heaven backwards and a drug that might be called Devil's Breath. Is there any chance that Katie having a bunch of tattoos of eyes based on your description is somehow a reference to the old, quote, biblically accurate angel description of Ezekiel quote, their entire bodies, including their backs, their hands and their wings, were completely full of eyes, as were, therefore wheels. So I don't, you know, we're going to talk about the. We get a more specific information about what religion it is that Max and perhaps some people in this show are practicing. We'll talk about Centoria. Not on an expert level by any means, but we'll talk about that a little bit later on. We don't. We don't. We ain't got no crystal ball. But like these Religious, like heaven, devil's breath, all of that sort of stuff, that sort of biblical associations. Do you have any thoughts on why they would be here?

[Rob Mahoney]

I mean, so much of it is so muddled at this point in terms of how they're being wielded, what they mean. I'm not even sure the show will ever have a good wrangling grasp of it, but I do think it also feeds into like, that sort of description. And the mirroring of Max Cady's visible, like, tattoos with the depiction of an angel specifically is a really evocative idea of like, him as an avenging angel, if nothing else. Right. This is somebody who clearly has been wronged in a way. We don't know the how or why yet. At least he is under the impression that he has been. And so, like, how worthy is that justice? What is his endgame in all of this? I found myself asking that a lot as he was kind of navigating these situations with Anna of, like, what does he want? Does he just want to have the we're not so different, you and I sort of confrontation? Is it a means of revenge? Is he trying to ruin her professional life or personal life or both? What is he after exactly, do we think?

[Joanna Robinson]

Absolute ruination? I think he's trying to, like, in this episode, he compromises her, right? The fact that she goes to him for help puts her in like, so vulnerable, you know, like he's in there. He gets a confession from this guy that she needs by whatever means necessary. And so, yeah, dragging her down to his level. We're not so different, you and I. But also, like, he recorded that guy. What else did he record? You know what I mean? And so, like, what does he, what leverage does he have on her now? He's just going around gathering leverage on people or compromising them in one way or another. And that's really scary. And it's scary how dumb the bowdoins are that they keep just like, you know, willingly gleefully skipping into like random pop up, piercing, you know, houses or whatever, whatever the case may be. They're just like dumb, dumb skunks getting drowned in a pool.

[Rob Mahoney]

It's part of what makes it trash trapeze, you know, like, you have to have characters. This isn't straight horror, but they are behaving like characters in a horror movie.

[Joanna Robinson]

Real skunk behavior. I don't mean to insult skunks, but for the metaphor.

[Rob Mahoney]

We already covered this. Skunks are intelligent. And I won't have you dragging the reputation through the mud on this show,

[Joanna Robinson]

Bunnies, like, what are they? They're dumb.

[Rob Mahoney]

Animal of prey of bunnies do seem pretty dumb.

[Joanna Robinson]

Okay, so let's start where the show starts, which is opening on Max performing a ceremony. And this is where we go into Santeria. Watch. Right, so we get language later that makes it like, overtly clear that we're talking about Santeria here. And we have seen evidence, you know, the same, you know, objects that he's using in his ceremonial process here. Is what we saw in the Bowdoin household related to Zack is what we saw saw in Amy's house when? I don't know if you recall, but she shot herself in the head twice.

[Rob Mahoney]

Twice. I. I can't unrecall that.

[Joanna Robinson]

So here's what our listener, Melody said before. Presumably she saw this episode. I'm thinking it's Centeria, similar to some other things that originate in Africa but made its way to Central and Latin America. Clues that stand out to me. Pomegranate seeds are symbolic in their religious practice, ritual animal sacrifice and cutting off parts of the animal. A toe, perhaps, is a form of spiritual practice. And they believe that they can derive power from eating parts of the slaughtered animal. Can I interest you in a baby carrot, perhaps? The evil eye in Santeria represents an envy as a curse. Aside from the tattoos, Katie makes mention of the Bowdoin's wealth as enviable often. And like Katie, they often wear white linens during their ceremonies. And their other sacred color is blue. So that's. That's. We are not pretending to be experts. In any case, this is what Melody sent to us. If you have other, more specific information that you would like to send to us. I always love to learn, certainly from people, so. Presshtvotify.com but we get mention of Orisha Sentero Sango, which is getting your crown. Max mentions Shango as this God of the spirit that he claims or has claimed him of. Fire, thunder, lightning, virility, dance, drumming, Strength and justice in the Yoruba religion in Centria. So, um, is this interesting to you? What do you think?

[Rob Mahoney]

Very, I think. Well, especially because we have sort of two tracks working here. Right there is the actual practicing that Max seems to be doing in this cold open. For example, right. Muttering words in Spanish like, we'll see kind of what the implications are of it. I would say is practicing some sort of, like, twisted version of Santeria, right? Like. Like wielding it in a way that is clearly malicious and channeling this energy in a way that is untoward.

[Joanna Robinson]

We were talking to Our producer Dev, who knows much more about this than we do. And we were sort of coming to this conclusion that, like, if the show is presenting Max Katie as a, like, righteous and true practitioner of Santeria, that

[Rob Mahoney]

is, like, I would be shocked, frankly,

[Joanna Robinson]

bad and problematic if they're like, he's taken this, you know, practice and this faith and twisted it to his, you know, his means, his purposes. Like, that's sort of more what I think is going on. So I don't think, like, what he's doing should be seen as indicative or representative. Of course not. Other practitioners of this particular.

[Rob Mahoney]

So there's. However he's actually practicing it and whatever he may be intending with all that. And then there's what he uses it for in this conversation with Smiley. And really, for Anna's benefit, I would say of the plausible deniability of. I'm going to say that we are of this similar, like, cultural background so that I can come with you and you don't have to ask too many questions up front about what I'm going to do.

[Joanna Robinson]

Sure.

[Rob Mahoney]

And then as soon as you leave the room, I'm really just not gonna even say what happened in there. But I have this recording, this temptation to dangle in front of you. But, like, ultimately, other than maybe the affliction of justice, there's really nothing about what happens with Smiley and the snakes that has anything to do with Santeria or faith whatsoever.

[Joanna Robinson]

I wouldn't say just information for us, the viewer, more than anything else. And I do. And information that, like, you know, he said that this guy Smiley was at Tarwater Prison with him. And so, you know, is this where. Because the flashbacks that we got to Max's childhood, you know, it was like a giant crucifix on the side of the river and a sort of, like, baptism sort of imagery. So I think that was the faith that was practiced by his family growing up, his dad. And so we already put religious trauma on the board. So this idea of, like, warping a religion into abuse, which was already existent in his childhood, is that what he then did with a practice that he might have encountered when he was at Tarwater with. With this other guy?

[Rob Mahoney]

You know, definitely could be. And the toes are paying the price.

[Joanna Robinson]

So we're adding Santeria to the board. Absolutely. Do you want to talk about snake stuff now?

[Rob Mahoney]

Let's talk about all the snake stuff. Here's my question for you. As far as Smiley goes, how many snakes are too many snakes?

[Joanna Robinson]

Oh, so we had snakes growing up in our, like, classrooms, like corn Snakes.

[Rob Mahoney]

Okay. Like one tank, several corn snakes inside.

[Joanna Robinson]

I think never more than three snakes in one classroom.

[Rob Mahoney]

Okay.

[Joanna Robinson]

I think that's.

[Rob Mahoney]

That's enough.

[Joanna Robinson]

I think three is a good number. I did have a friend who had, like, a whole wall of, like, snake terrariums, but I was deeply uncomfortable in that room.

[Rob Mahoney]

It's just a lot. I think if. If you. Look, live your life, if you want to have a bunch of snakes.

[Joanna Robinson]

Yeah.

[Rob Mahoney]

I can't say I support you, but I support your choice.

[Joanna Robinson]

Some people are cat people, some people are snake people.

[Rob Mahoney]

I just can't wrap my head around the kind of pet having where you have to make a pass or the

[Joanna Robinson]

snake might wrap itself around your head.

[Rob Mahoney]

Well, obviously that's part of it, but more so that I have to go, like, check every terrarium to make sure one of them has not escaped in the night.

[Joanna Robinson]

How do you feel about the fact that we are like euphoria back in snake territory and severed toes territory?

[Rob Mahoney]

Euphoria is going to see toes snakes. Like, this is our personal vision board, and I didn't want to manifest it, but apparently we did.

[Joanna Robinson]

I'm pretty upset. So we're adding Smiley Pit. Do you think he's going to come back? Smiley Pitt's going to be added to the board?

[Rob Mahoney]

I think this is probably the last we see of him, right?

[Joanna Robinson]

Could be, but I'm putting him on the board anyway. Snake stuff definitely going on the board.

[Rob Mahoney]

There's so much snake stuff.

[Joanna Robinson]

Max was very, like, cozy with the charmer snakes and then rip that one snake. Our producer Kai was like, there's not enough dead stuff on the board. So we're adding this dead snake to the board.

[Rob Mahoney]

I was unclear personally if this was Rose, his one named snake.

[Joanna Robinson]

Yeah. You really wanted to make sure we got the identity of the snake right.

[Rob Mahoney]

I just think it's in, like, the ebird economy of characters that, like, if you're going to bring something up, they have to, like, pay off in a certain way. So it's like the fact that one snake is named. Wouldn't it stand to reason that that's the one that Max stabs through the head?

[Joanna Robinson]

Rip Rose. Is that the titular piercing, do you think?

[Rob Mahoney]

Honestly, lots of piercings abound.

[Joanna Robinson]

Piercings everywhere. All right. Tom, of course, belongs to a country club, so I'm adding the country club to the list.

[Rob Mahoney]

Is it a country club?

[Joanna Robinson]

Yeah.

[Rob Mahoney]

Or is it just like a members only club? And is there a difference?

[Joanna Robinson]

What's the difference? What's the meaningful difference?

[Rob Mahoney]

I'm going to say not much But I bet if you're a member of a country club or a members only club. Subtle but meaningful.

[Joanna Robinson]

Like, what is the difference?

[Rob Mahoney]

Well, for what I think country club involves sports.

[Joanna Robinson]

You have to have a golf course attached, but there's not golf or tennis courts.

[Rob Mahoney]

Okay, one of the two. Or at least. At least a pool.

[Joanna Robinson]

You think there isn't a golf course, like, right outside the window there?

[Rob Mahoney]

Unclear.

[Joanna Robinson]

Okay, so you think it's like a gentleman's club?

[Rob Mahoney]

I think it could be a gentleman's club.

[Joanna Robinson]

Interesting.

[Rob Mahoney]

Could be a fancy Elk Lodge. You know, who is to say?

[Joanna Robinson]

I definitely think Tom belongs to a country club.

[Rob Mahoney]

He's got the vibe.

[Joanna Robinson]

Okay. Excellent. Country club. We're adding it to the list. No more club quibbling here. Max is here. He's joined Tom's country club or gentleman's club, as you prefer. This seems to be just like a first foray into a longer seduction attempt. Because that's what Max is doing, right? He's trying to be like, you don't have to be afraid of me. And if you are afraid of me, I'm gonna menace you. That's what he did with Rey. Do you feel like he was menacing Tommy?

[Rob Mahoney]

I thought so. As one of the things.

[Joanna Robinson]

Tell me more about it.

[Rob Mahoney]

I mean, you don't go up to a dad and say, hey, your son really needs a dad.

[Joanna Robinson]

Of course. You are the father. Obviously.

[Rob Mahoney]

Like, nothing about this is seduction. It feels much more menacing.

[Joanna Robinson]

I don't know. Let me buy you a drink at your country club.

[Rob Mahoney]

See, that's in the country club world. Oh, you know, that's. He. He just, like, put his dick on the table.

[Joanna Robinson]

Do you know about country club culture?

[Rob Mahoney]

Let me tell you, we're all making it up as we go, but I'm saying it like, he comes in with this, like, very aggressive, I would say, like, overbearing, macho sort of energy.

[Joanna Robinson]

Are you from country club people?

[Rob Mahoney]

No.

[Joanna Robinson]

Okay, but you're a tennis guy. Do you feel like that?

[Rob Mahoney]

I mean, I do. I'm a public court tennis player. Come on. It's honestly very different. Don't. Don't even get me started.

[Joanna Robinson]

Okay, let's go back to you knowing the nuances of the social ins and outs of the country club.

[Rob Mahoney]

I just read it much more as, like, what's happening with Ana. There is a type of seduction, right? A temptation of, I'm gonna dangle this bait on a hook for you, of this piece of evidence you so desperately need. This was not that. And I think some of it is. Tom is not as open to Max's advances in persuasion so far. He's, like, very repulsed by it. This whole interaction on his side, super cold, super removed. I'm getting out of here as soon as I possibly can. Does not want any part of it.

[Joanna Robinson]

I did see, you know, like, Max is constantly performing inside of this episode. Even when he's. Like, when he was menacing that guy at the dealership, it was with a smile on his face, like, he's still performing in some way. But when he started talking about his kid, that felt real to me, kind of.

[Rob Mahoney]

I. It's. It's so interesting because Javier Bardem is so full of menace and at times, so full of shit.

[Joanna Robinson]

I don't mean it feels, like, earnest, like I felt for him.

[Rob Mahoney]

Yeah.

[Joanna Robinson]

It just felt like this is a mania, an obsession of his.

[Rob Mahoney]

I could see that.

[Joanna Robinson]

Why was that sonogram photo on the. On the, like, ceremonial, you know?

[Rob Mahoney]

Yeah. So it was. It was sonogram photo. The draw. The illustration of the AI slop that supposedly came from Zack. The cowrie shells, plantains or bananas. Could be either one.

[Joanna Robinson]

Yeah.

[Rob Mahoney]

Was there anything else involved in that little, like, on an alter setup?

[Joanna Robinson]

I don't know. But we are adding the AI Sloth drawing.

[Rob Mahoney]

Your rendering of Zach's rendering.

[Joanna Robinson]

AI Sloth drawing is going on the board for sure.

[Rob Mahoney]

Got to.

[Joanna Robinson]

Anything else you want to say about this Tom and Max interaction?

[Rob Mahoney]

I love these two in isolation, too. I hope we get much more of this. I hope it's not just Max and Anna. Like, oh, no. I'm as interested in this dynamic as well.

[Joanna Robinson]

Dialed in.

[Rob Mahoney]

Let's go. Oh, I will say one thing about the drawing. I know we're kind of shifted off of, like, this is Max's unborn son who is being drawn.

[Joanna Robinson]

Yeah. AI slap Adam. You want to tell the folks what got the biggest laugh while we were watching this episode? Because I think it might have been that. I think it might have been that drawing.

[Rob Mahoney]

The drawing is. It's tough. The hairline is tough. There's a lot happening. I say this not uncharitably, having acknowledged all of those things. If you want to adjust the bangs just so on that drawing, if you want to bring a couple of lines in it. Does it not look like Natalie?

[Joanna Robinson]

Oh, wow, look at you. Scad himself. Art critic himself.

[Rob Mahoney]

I'm just saying, a couple of quick alterations, and we. We've been debating since the first episode, like, is Natalie Max Katie's biological daughter,

[Joanna Robinson]

to go back to another show we're covering or have been covering. You're saying that Widows Bay island does not look like a hand. That's correct. But you're saying that AI Sloth drawing of Adam looks like Natalie from a

[Rob Mahoney]

certain point of view.

[Joanna Robinson]

Wow. All right, Juliette Lewis and Amy Adams, here we go. First of all, Rob, I know you don't like Halloween, but would you reconsider perhaps dressing up in a green rain slicker and a face mask?

[Rob Mahoney]

I would say, why wait for Halloween? Why are we doing this for the season finale?

[Joanna Robinson]

I think I'm, like, full up on costumes with all the vampire shit I'm doing on House of R. That's your own doing. But if you want to get a blonde wig and a green rain slicker and a face mask, I will consider it. I think you should consider it.

[Rob Mahoney]

Just know that if I do those things and we do a podcast with me wearing them, I will be performing in a, like, breathy, lilting, creepy voice the entire time.

[Joanna Robinson]

That's not so different from your current voice. But listen, you're welcome. Great stuff. Fingers in the window is a real move, right? Anna cracks the window to be like, hi, I wouldn't do that if I saw Juliette Lewis prancing in the street.

[Rob Mahoney]

I talked straight through the window. Or are you driving off?

[Joanna Robinson]

I'm driving off. Wow. And if she's in front of me, I will keep driving until she. That's actually distinctly not true. The place I lived before la, there were just wild turkeys on the road all the time, and they would just get in front of your car and sometimes I would just sit there because I'm like, I'm not gonna menace the turkey. They're scary. So I would just wait for them to, like, gobble on and they would just take their time.

[Rob Mahoney]

I feel very confident that this is the only podcast where you will hear Juliet Lewis compared to a wild this

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[Rob Mahoney]

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[Joanna Robinson]

Our listener Larry has a theory about who Juliet Lewis might be playing right Juliet Lewis is playing his Max. Katie's half sister, I have to believe, knows about his dog cage childhood and is the right age. Katie said his father had another family when Katie joined them at 13. And as I mentioned, Larry wrote another email of this. As I mentioned before, there was a young woman watching on the shore during the baptism. So how do you feel about this as like a half sister figure?

[Rob Mahoney]

I'm compelled. I think some of it if we want to tie in. Maxine Katie yeah, Maxine would be very Funny. But if we want to tie in Anna and Juliette Lewis encounter later in this episode where she's talking about the quote, unquote, horrors that she has tried to warn off of being in Max's orbit.

[Joanna Robinson]

Yeah.

[Rob Mahoney]

I mean, clearly that is meant to be intimidating. It's meant to be like, scary to watch. And her framing and the way she's talking about it. I also wonder if it is more. This is a damaged person trying to make a genuine effort of concern in her way.

[Joanna Robinson]

That's how I read it.

[Rob Mahoney]

And so the idea that she knows Max well enough to try to warn these women away from him, and she's attempting to do that with Anna, but in a way that comes on quite strong.

[Joanna Robinson]

But also like, I think, like, whatever, if she's his half sister or not. The implication to me is that this woman, you know, quote, was made a whore by, like, was also whatever he did psychologically, sexually to Amy and Melissa, he did to her.

[Rob Mahoney]

Well, that's the question, right? Is, is she in the line of these other women who have been romantically entangled, or is she more of a half sister?

[Joanna Robinson]

The way that she's sort of like. Well, or both.

[Rob Mahoney]

I mean, this is the show where it would be both. Who am I kidding?

[Joanna Robinson]

I already have an incest card for another pair of characters on this show.

[Rob Mahoney]

We're also maybe half siblings. So. Yeah, cycles repeat.

[Joanna Robinson]

She was sort of like the way she was dancing in her underwear to the butthole surfers on that video did not strike me as truly sisterly. So that's all I have to say about that.

[Rob Mahoney]

They have a complicated relationship, clearly. Whatever it is.

[Joanna Robinson]

Let's just wrap up the Juliette Lewis of it all. Given that there was a kiss between Max and Anna, an uncomfortable kiss. We are adding that kiss to the board.

[Rob Mahoney]

Gotta do it.

[Joanna Robinson]

Uh, she shows up and she says, I saw you with him. And she has a video camera. So to me that says there is now video evidence of Max and Anna kissing.

[Rob Mahoney]

Yes.

[Joanna Robinson]

That without the context of him, like kind of forcing himself on her, if someone else sees it again, that puts Anna in a compromising position.

[Rob Mahoney]

Especially at a distance. Yeah, like from that remove where you don't have a whole. The information could definitely be wielded against her or the Bowden's in whatever kind of way.

[Joanna Robinson]

Right.

[Rob Mahoney]

I. I think it's kind of an underlying underlining thing throughout this episode. This idea of not only you could be watched at any time, but you could be recorded at any time.

[Joanna Robinson]

Yeah, that. That sort of tech paranoia.

[Rob Mahoney]

The tech paranoia and it comes through with smiley and the idea of like a one party consent audio state.

[Joanna Robinson]

Yeah.

[Rob Mahoney]

Got to know your rights.

[Joanna Robinson]

Yeah.

[Rob Mahoney]

It comes through at the car dealership where that whole encounter is being recorded. Added again at a slight remove. So who's to say what it is or what it looks like? But the impression at a distance might be the kind of thing that ultimately works against Max Cady.

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Right.

[Rob Mahoney]

As he has this smiling image to so many different people here he is kind of intimidating, this guy and being like right in his face in a way that is clearly a confrontation.

[Joanna Robinson]

That idea of like you could always be watched inside your home, own home or anywhere is something to think about. Okay.

[Rob Mahoney]

And in this case, not only can you be watched, but then you can be tastefully reflected through like. I love the glare of both the sun and the giant ass light that Juliet Lewis has attached to her camcorder. Again, just kind of.

[Joanna Robinson]

That's a great shot.

[Rob Mahoney]

Keeping us like at a slight back foot in terms of ever being able to read her face or impressions or what she indicates at any time.

[Joanna Robinson]

We cut from this, and this is like one of several visual flourishes that I quite enjoyed in this episode. We cut from this to Natalie stabbing a piece of fruit at breakfast, which will then of course come back during the nipple piercing scene. But I just like loved that image of like the juicy red strawberry getting, you know, pierced there. I'm putting learner's permit on the. On the board. Natalie is very stressed out that she does not have a driver's license. So I'm putting learners.

[Rob Mahoney]

Do you think we're going to get a scene later this season where she needs to drive like, Tom's been shot and she needs to drive to the hospital, but she's like, no, I can't. I don't, I don't yet have my license.

[Joanna Robinson]

Well, does it, I don't know the. Does it count as having a super. A licensed supervised driver if they are like passed out and gunshot in the backseat of the car or something like that?

[Rob Mahoney]

You know, in Georgia probably.

[Joanna Robinson]

Yeah. I don't know what the rules are in Georgia.

[Rob Mahoney]

It's fair.

[Joanna Robinson]

By the way, California is a two party consent recording state.

[Rob Mahoney]

I do absolutely it is.

[Joanna Robinson]

I don't, I don't know all the one party can. That's. It seems like everywhere should be a two party consent recording.

[Rob Mahoney]

I'm going to be honest. It's mostly the ones you'd expect.

[Joanna Robinson]

Okay. Tough, tough for Georgia. That's a real southerner on Southerner crime.

[Rob Mahoney]

For me, it's just it's just the truth.

[Joanna Robinson]

Peanut butter is here at breakfast. Something really struck me about this breakfast scene. Not just that. Like, that. Natalie calls Tom a cuck. Like, she does drugs one time and she is, like, ready to be a bad seed. Like, she is ready.

[Rob Mahoney]

Did you take this as a proper Chekhov's cuck? Slash cuck shadowing.

[Joanna Robinson]

Oh, God.

[Rob Mahoney]

Shadowing everything that is in the air. As far as what her actual parentage may be.

[Joanna Robinson]

I'm adding cuck shadowing to the board. Were you just mad that I coined a tractor piece and you wanted to put cuck shadowing in there?

[Rob Mahoney]

Jo, I'm never mad at your brilliance. You know, I simply want to follow you into the depths.

[Joanna Robinson]

Okay, great. Interesting, because that is our theory. Well, no, not really, because she would have been cucking Paul, not Tom.

[Rob Mahoney]

But Tom is still. I mean, he's even worse the second cuck. Oh, the step cuck.

[Joanna Robinson]

The cuck who stepped up.

[Rob Mahoney]

He is kind of the cuck who stepped up. Shout out to Tom. Doing actual parenting in this episode. He's trying.

[Joanna Robinson]

He really is.

[Rob Mahoney]

I wouldn't say he's always successful. I wouldn't say everything he does is perfect, but he's making an honest to

[Joanna Robinson]

good decision when he's like, golly G willikers. We went to an art show, and I think it's going well with Zach. That was just like, one of my. Like, he.

[Rob Mahoney]

If you want to go to.

[Joanna Robinson]

This is great. This is really neat. Remind me a lot of some dads. I know. We're just sort of like, I love this art show stuff you're interested in.

[Rob Mahoney]

Also, all the voice to text with him is it makes me laugh every time.

[Joanna Robinson]

The thing that really struck me about that breakfast scene, though, is Ray being, like, such a member of the family.

[Rob Mahoney]

Yeah.

[Joanna Robinson]

Like, he's in the kitchen making coffee.

[Rob Mahoney]

Making the good coffee.

[Joanna Robinson]

He's, like, familiar. Savannah coffee roaster. Shout out. He's, like, familiar with Natalie. You know, like, he's just, like, friends with all. He's not just like Anna's coworker. He's, like, embedded in the family. And I just think that that's a difference of this archetype of this role that we've seen in previous iterations of the story. A more incorporated well.

[Rob Mahoney]

And this has been there from the very beginning.

[Ad Read Announcer]

Right.

[Rob Mahoney]

Like, he was over there for the barbecue to open episode one. He is fully integrated here.

[Joanna Robinson]

Yeah, yeah, absolutely. I just think there's a difference between being invited for a barbecue and, like, straight up making coffee in someone else's kitchen. That's a degree of intimacy that is hard to come by.

[Rob Mahoney]

How many people in your life are you familiar enough with who, like, you're not related to? They could just wander in and make coffee in your kitchen and you wouldn't

[Joanna Robinson]

really b. I think literally, like one person, honestly. How about you?

[Rob Mahoney]

Exclusive list? Probably fewer. I think it would be very weird for somebody to do that.

[Joanna Robinson]

The kitchen is your sanctuary. So it's a different thing for you, I think. Zach in therapy. All right, so we get. We get more of the Tom talking heads flashback. We get more information that he has told everyone that his brother died in a car accident when clearly his brother, like, hung himself.

[Rob Mahoney]

At least told his kids that.

[Joanna Robinson]

Yeah, I don't know what Anna knows.

[Rob Mahoney]

Yeah, that would be.

[Joanna Robinson]

The variable talking heads poster is there. And then the thing that you thought was he man is very close.

[Rob Mahoney]

Oh, it's Conan.

[Joanna Robinson]

Conan the Barbarian. Yeah, Very close. Tom fires the therapist because it seems to me that Tom fires therapist because he's like, I don't want to talk about this thing. I'm in deep denial about this thing that happened to me. Of course, that's what he's like. Get out of here. Like, not anything to do with Zach where he's like, zach doesn't trust you. Zach doesn't take you seriously.

[Rob Mahoney]

I mean, it's all. It's all a ruse.

[Joanna Robinson]

Yeah.

[Rob Mahoney]

Can I stand up for my guy Tom for one second, though?

[Joanna Robinson]

Yeah, your guy Tom.

[Rob Mahoney]

He needs to be in therapy to talk about this stuff. I think the therapist suggesting we are going to loop in your lifelong deep seated family trauma into your son's much more recent guilt ridden, selfie leaking trauma. And like, why are we entangling these things when these people both need dedicated individual care?

[Joanna Robinson]

And this is where we got an email from our listener Nicole, where I really agree. I'm not. We're not parents, but I agree with Nicole, who says as a parent, if my daughter bit off her toe and swallowed it after the ER run, she would have immediately been in the best psychiatric care Savannah had to offer. There would be no trip home, no Savannah coffee roasters.

[Ad Read Announcer 2]

No.

[Joanna Robinson]

I would have taken at least a week off work. My life would stop and I would tell my boss what's going on so she could have a normal human reaction and reinforce any other choices. Every time I see Zach do something, text weird people walk around his house, shake hands with Max, Katie exist without help. I am taken out of the story and just made super angry. And I agree. We are adding a segment to this podcast of like, like too dumb to live. And I, I don't think this is the thing, but like Tom and Anna are not only like questionable parents to begin with, but like their behavior around Zach is. I can't understand it.

[Rob Mahoney]

Incomprehensible.

[Joanna Robinson]

That is the word. Incomprehensible.

[Rob Mahoney]

Your kid biting off their toe, as the email alludes to, would be the only thing you think and talk about for a.

[Joanna Robinson]

Like, I get that Anna, like Tom, I like, you know, because Tom is like a shittier lawyer or what? Like a, like a. Not a less altruistic lawyer. So Tom is the one who seems to be like taking more time off work.

[Ad Read Announcer]

Yeah.

[Joanna Robinson]

Even though Lexi's coming over and they're. They're microdosing drugs while Zach is upstairs.

[Rob Mahoney]

It's kind of off work, but.

[Joanna Robinson]

But I understand that Anna is like, I have an important job, but I'm with Natalie where I'm just sort of like, fuck you, dude. Like, take some time off work. Be with your family right now.

[Rob Mahoney]

I mean, Natalie is noticing if no one else is that, you know, Anna's falling through on a lot of things she says she's going do.

[Joanna Robinson]

All right, Sports corner. You wanted to linger with Natalie at soccer.

[Rob Mahoney]

I really liked it.

[Joanna Robinson]

What do you want to say?

[Rob Mahoney]

I mean, many things. One, this whole scene is very strange as far as Nevaeh creeping up behind the goal, having a full on conversation. Nobody seems to notice her. Natalie just walks off. No one seems to notice.

[Joanna Robinson]

Are you positing Nevaeh is not real?

[Rob Mahoney]

I'm not. But like the show almost shoots it that way. As if she's a figment of Natalie's imagination. Maybe that's kind of like the subtext, but not the literal. Like, she's not a ghost.

[Joanna Robinson]

Yeah.

[Rob Mahoney]

That said, I think Natalie being a goalie to me is like a very specific character. Be it goalkeeper, if you prefer.

[Joanna Robinson]

I do.

[Rob Mahoney]

Very true to her character as I understand it. And I would say specifically the idea that like a goalie, are you pandering the world?

[Joanna Robinson]

You're not a soccer guy.

[Rob Mahoney]

I'm not.

[Joanna Robinson]

Okay.

[Rob Mahoney]

But I'm a sportsman.

[Joanna Robinson]

Okay. What do you know about goalies?

[Rob Mahoney]

Well, I think the role of a goalie is similar to many in many different industries and walks of life where it's like, if you're doing that job well, no one really notices or talks about it unless you make the exceptional save.

[Joanna Robinson]

Okay.

[Rob Mahoney]

But the one time you fuck up, the Cali's of the world are like, what's your problem? Right. Like all fingers are pointed at you. This like, pressure packed perfectionist position where you get really very little praise for the day to day of what you do. Yeah, that feels true to everything else we're hearing about Natalie.

[Joanna Robinson]

I agree. I really agree. I'd be curious what you know. We know that Bill Simmons is watching and enjoying this show. I'll be curious to see if we get any texts about the soccer play. Cause I remember he had a lot of notes about yellow jackets and like how the, you know, how the young women were playing soccer on that show. So I'll be curious what he thinks.

[Rob Mahoney]

I mean, she is clarified here more spiritually Megan Rapinoe than actually Megan Rapinoe.

[Joanna Robinson]

Yeah. Tough.

[Rob Mahoney]

It's okay.

[Joanna Robinson]

Maybe if she had those shoes that her grandfather tried to give her, she would have done a better job.

[Rob Mahoney]

Well, it's not even a quality thing. It's just a positional issue, you know? That's true.

[Joanna Robinson]

That's true. Okay, Tom and Zach, let's go fishing. Let's go to the art show. Yeah, let's take a dip in the pool. Hey, where's your toe? Patrick Wilson. Emmy.

[Rob Mahoney]

I ate it again, Amy.

[Joanna Robinson]

Emmy. Emmy for Patrick Wilson. Hey, where's your toe?

[Rob Mahoney]

I really don't think there was a single Patrick Wilson moment in this episode, line or reaction shot that I did not have, like a physical response to. The man is completely positive. I want to be very clear about that. I love him on this show.

[Joanna Robinson]

Okay, Raise your toe.

[Rob Mahoney]

Just wanted to carpe some diem.

[Joanna Robinson]

Joe Anderson, who plays Zack. I thought he was really good in that art show scene when Beth, the mom was really laying into him in a way that like, seemed unnecessary. Like, ah, no, I'm not defending him.

[Rob Mahoney]

I get it.

[Joanna Robinson]

I'm not defending him. But when Tom's like, beth, we're leaving.

[Rob Mahoney]

Yes.

[Joanna Robinson]

Like, let. Let Tom take his son away and just de escalate. She's escalating. Let's de escalate. That's what I have to say about that.

[Rob Mahoney]

I think if you're the parent of somebody who has been wronged in a profound and at that point, like, like social life altering way, if not life altering way, you get a little defensive, you know?

[Joanna Robinson]

But I don't think this is Beth's first rodeo at like, telling Zach that he's a piece of shit.

[Rob Mahoney]

And let me tell you, it's not her last. Like, that woman has not said everything she has to say.

[Joanna Robinson]

Tom's like, beth, I'm trying, trying to handle it. All of this. She doesn't even know about the. Tom, here's.

[Rob Mahoney]

Here's the thing. If this were a neutral situation, they just.

[Joanna Robinson]

I'm not defending what Zach did, obviously, with this.

[Rob Mahoney]

Well, you've been doing that off mic for weeks. You've been saying. You've been saying that Sophia really had it coming. It's like, I just thought it very weird from you, Joe.

[Joanna Robinson]

Really, I'm very. What were you gonna say if this

[Rob Mahoney]

were a neutral situation? They're just all at the grocery store. They turn the aisle into the cereal, and they're like, oh, my God, here we are.

[Joanna Robinson]

He did follow her to the art show.

[Rob Mahoney]

He stalked her to the art show.

[Joanna Robinson]

You know, that's fair.

[Rob Mahoney]

He had the brilliant idea.

[Joanna Robinson]

I just really think Tom saying, beth, we're leaving. I want the interaction to be over. I don't want to continue the interaction with this, like, clearly troubled child. Maybe if I'm Beth and Lynn, like, hey, why isn't he in therapy literally right now? Like, you know, something like that. But you're a bad person, and you should marinate in your guilt forever.

[Rob Mahoney]

It's. Look, it's not the most constructive thing to say to a child, but I don't think her role in here is, like, as a parent of the community. It says, a parent of her own daughter.

[Joanna Robinson]

You need help. You're a bad parent. Get him help. Why? Isn't he a condition? Maybe. Maybe.

[Rob Mahoney]

I mean, he deserves to be, too.

[Joanna Robinson]

Maybe. Beth, we'll leave. And then we get the pool scene. So we get this, like, I may go stick my head in the oven, which triggers Tom again to think of his brother. We see him sort of hit himself in the face, which we already saw Zack do earlier this season. And Tom, stop it. And be like, hey, don't hit yourself. But this is something he learned from Tom, obviously. Something like Tom does to sort of snap him. Like, when he's not microdosing, I guess he's, like, slapping himself out of.

[Rob Mahoney]

Out of these moments of reference, flashback or whatever.

[Joanna Robinson]

And then we get the pool moment. Did you have a moment where you were like, you know, Zack is trying to end his life in the pool? Like, how did you react to that?

[Rob Mahoney]

I thought it would probably be bait and switch. It's just too early in the season for stuff like that. And really, I think the importance of so many of these scenes is establishing Tom as the boiling kettle character. Right? Like, Zack, we're showing everything he's going through. He's having a really hard time processing what he's done and what he's done to Hurt Sophia, among other people. But even using his therapy as a chance to turn and look at Tom and say, like, you got a lot of stuff you need to work out. You're not talking to anybody about, you're lying about actively. And even his. His advice to Zach in this moment after he dives in the pool is,

[Joanna Robinson]

I thought about the man I wanted to be and over time, I became him.

[Rob Mahoney]

Exactly. That sounds so much to me. Like I have. I created an artifice and I have crawled inside it and I am pretending to be that person, but I am not actually that person.

[Joanna Robinson]

Like, what I wrote down is like, what is lurking underneath for Tom. Right. So, like, what. When a Max, Katie or someone else chips away at what, you know, the veneer of success and happy home and nuclear family and all this sort of stuff is what this show is, is what the story of Cape Fear has always been about. How do we unearth the rot underneath this sort of like, idealized American dream? So like in the 90s version, we just like learn more and more about Nick Nolte's character as it goes on, or the ways in which Juliette Lewis's character is not being supervised and all this other stuff like that. And so here it's like, what, what lies are responsible for propping up this incre, like, extremely affluent, white, you know, family in Savannah, Georgia, and the ways

[Rob Mahoney]

that they're kind of self destructed within those lies. Right? Everything. What, what Tom is hiding his own past trauma with his brother and his inability to be open about it is what leads him to think that his own son might be suicidal. That leads him to dive into that pool to save him. When in reality, Zach is trying to do the thing his therapist told him to do, which is like, activate this dive reflex. It's like a very real thing in terms of quieting the anxiety in your head and drowning it out with like, physiological response of breathing. Right. You were streamlining everything that's going on inside you. So he tried to do the thing his therapist said. Tom interrupts him because of his own shit. And that is like a straight line from there to him reaching out to Angel X at the end of this episode. Cause he needs relief from somewhere and he can't get it in his own

[Joanna Robinson]

home anymore, I guess. But like, it's also that came directly from Sofia texting him. Well, sure, but you're like, if he had had more time and dive therapy, he would have been able to handle that better.

[Rob Mahoney]

I think everything he is being shown in his own home is like Even when you try to take care of yourself and do the things your therapist says, it's not gonna work. Your family won't allow it. Just like the ATM in this place is inhospitable to it.

[Joanna Robinson]

Stifling. All right, I forgot to add some things to the board. Conan the Barbarian is definitely going on the board.

[Rob Mahoney]

Get him up there.

[Joanna Robinson]

Love him. Pool therapy. You want to make this dive therapy or pool therapy?

[Rob Mahoney]

Let's keep pool therapy.

[Joanna Robinson]

Pool therapy is going on the board. Nipple piercing.

[Rob Mahoney]

Do you want to talk about the nipple piercings?

[Joanna Robinson]

Not really.

[Rob Mahoney]

I mean, we went straight from soccer into everything else. But this is a significant part of this episode, and it was a lot.

[Joanna Robinson]

It was. Was a ton. What do you want to say about it, though? I don't know what to say.

[Rob Mahoney]

I just think everything that's happening with Nat and Nevaeh in this episode is so much rooted in the idea of, like, how far can Nat just be pushed at this point?

[Joanna Robinson]

And it's fast.

[Rob Mahoney]

It's. It's far and it's fast and.

[Joanna Robinson]

But, like, speaking of, like, what's lurking underneath for, like, you know, for Tom to say, I've crafted this Persona and that I became that person dipped in handsome, like, you know, successful lawyer for Natalie. As Nevaeh sort of deconstructed last week, you know, it's like the currency of buying your security. With perfect grades, college applications, playing soccer, all these things. It makes sense that a young. For a younger person, that that sheen of perfection would crack faster.

[Rob Mahoney]

Yes.

[Joanna Robinson]

It really does seem like, though it was like one party pushed her right over the edge. But here we are, we're in nipple piercing territory now.

[Rob Mahoney]

We're in nipple piercing territory. I think there is part of Nat's character who, yeah, by her background alone, is very gullible. There are puppies and candy in this unmarked van. Level gullible.

[Joanna Robinson]

It's a pop up piercing. She is susceptible in a ramshackle house.

[Rob Mahoney]

She's just, like, going along with this stuff in a way that I think makes sense for who she is and where she's been. I also am fascinated by Nevaeh's role in this story for both kids, where she has wormed her way into both of their lives as the pressure release for them.

[Joanna Robinson]

Right.

[Rob Mahoney]

This idea that after. I mean, we even probably also need to talk about. About breaking into Nat's crush's house and dressing in her clothes to have sex in her bed.

[Joanna Robinson]

Wi fi jammer.

[Rob Mahoney]

Yeah.

[Joanna Robinson]

The May has a Wi Fi jammer that can deactivate home security. Systems.

[Rob Mahoney]

Can't imagine where that would be useful.

[Joanna Robinson]

Yeah. So what home security systems have we seen glitching so far on the show? Got it. Drug vision. When Nat's on the bed and she's like, you look pretty in my crush's clothing. Like, it gets all.

[Rob Mahoney]

Like, all your swirling heads look so pretty.

[Joanna Robinson]

Bug vision, like, refracted, you know, sort of thing. And this is.

[Rob Mahoney]

This is post smoke being blown in her mouth, too. So who knows what was going on?

[Joanna Robinson]

Who knows what was in that? Yeah, we get the blowing of the smoke and then the blowing of the. Of the dust powder later. And if it is this drug, this what? Devil's breath. It makes sure it makes sense that it would come in these, like, exhalation forms. Incest. We're putting it on the board. Incest.

[Rob Mahoney]

It simply demands to be.

[Joanna Robinson]

Natalie is Max Katie's daughter, which is our strong suspicion.

[Rob Mahoney]

Yep.

[Joanna Robinson]

And as we learned by the end of the episode, Nevaeh is Max Katie's daughter. Then this, you know, young. I just feel bad for Natalie because,

[Rob Mahoney]

like, it's not good.

[Joanna Robinson]

You know, she's, like, connecting with someone. It's a bad choice, but, like, she's connecting with someone after being rejected by her friend, who was also her crush, after feeling ostracized, and she, like, found someone to have this, like. And she's like, I always get anxious with other people. With you, it's quiet, and she's being manipulated, and it's probably her half sister. And you know what? That's a cautionary tale, kids.

[Rob Mahoney]

Is it?

[Joanna Robinson]

No.

[Rob Mahoney]

Do we need to be on the lookout for that?

[Joanna Robinson]

I don't know.

[Rob Mahoney]

No. But I do think there are the literal drugs, which clearly have an influence, and then there is sort of the drug of this sort of, like, pressure release for these kids who are wound up so tight, in part because they are in a house that is a web of lies in ways that they both understand and don't.

[Joanna Robinson]

Well, Zach gets more complicated, though, because he was just, like, sort of already a hot mess before all of this started.

[Rob Mahoney]

But it's like, again, how do kids become a hot mess? I think there's lots of organic ways that could happen.

[Joanna Robinson]

How long have they been in contact?

[Rob Mahoney]

Him and Angel X?

[Ad Read Announcer 2]

Yeah.

[Joanna Robinson]

Did that start after he lost all of his friends in the Sophia incident, or did that happen as part of it in the first place?

[Rob Mahoney]

I would. I mean, I guess it could have been a motivating factor. And we do get Zack trying to insist, like, I'm not this person. You don't know the full story kind of stuff with Sophia. Sophia. She understandably does not want to hear any of it.

[Joanna Robinson]

No.

[Rob Mahoney]

So maybe there is another shoe to drop as far as that.

[Joanna Robinson]

Initiating action to go back to you implying that I am siding with Zach over Sofia, I will just say this. Sophia is allowed to say anything she wants to say. Like, I have no objection of her being like, I unblocked your number just to tell you what a piece of shit you are. Like, yeah, that I'm, like, totally on board with. It's the adult woman that I was just sort of like, can we have.

[Rob Mahoney]

The adult woman is her mom.

[Joanna Robinson]

All right. What haven't we talked about that we want to talk. Okay, so when Max is talking to Ray and Anna about helping with Smiley, he says this very important thing, right? It's not enough to persuade. You have to compel. And so this idea of compulsion, whether it's like drug assisted, you know, when we watched Amy in the first episode shoot herself in the head twice, it certainly seemed upon the second time that she was compelled over the phone to do something.

[Rob Mahoney]

Yes.

[Joanna Robinson]

So what other forms can these compulsions take? Like, if Max is trying to persuade the car dealer to give him, you know, sell him the car and be cool and calm down, but then he's just like, compel. What is. What does compulsion mean for him?

[Rob Mahoney]

Violence, I think in the case of. How do I get this watch. It's violence. Yeah, Right. That's not a. I'm gonna blow drugs in your face and slowly convince you.

[Joanna Robinson]

But.

[Rob Mahoney]

But I think there are clearly a lot of ways that someone like Max, Katie can be persuasive and someone like Nevaeh can be persuasive. And the most interesting ones to me are the ones that play with this germ of an idea that's already there. Right. Like Nevaeh, even without the drugs, plants, the seed of. You're the perfect daughter who isn't allowed to do anything wrong, and then just kind of keeps feeding that idea until it becomes something that maybe under the influence of a substance, becomes more easily manipulatable.

[Joanna Robinson]

Yeah. If there is this. I mean. I mean, like, it's wild to me that this drug apparently exists in the world, but we also got, like, several other emails about it. So, like, if this drug exists, that is. Makes people sort of vulnerable to suggestion. I mean, that's scary to me that that exists. But also, like, when you go back to that party scene, you know, she gets her high and then she has. She is like, sort of feeding her these ideas, like Almost like a hypnotic suggestion sort of thing. Like they're not your real family. All these other things. So, yeah, upsetting. Not great. Guess what? This show.

[Rob Mahoney]

Oh, we should note, Nevaeh does bust out the knife in Callie's house. Oh, yeah.

[Joanna Robinson]

I meant to add that to pile. We don't have a card for it yet, but yeah. She is so ready to kill Callie's father for no reason. She is eager to do that, so.

[Rob Mahoney]

And Natalie is too goo goo eyed, slash distracted to realize that the girl behind her has busted out this whole ass knife.

[Joanna Robinson]

It's a. It's a sizable knife.

[Rob Mahoney]

It's. It's significant.

[Joanna Robinson]

I think we did it.

[Rob Mahoney]

I think we did.

[Joanna Robinson]

Zach's burner phone makes an appearance. We already knew it existed, but we did get to see it, so there's that. It's in his closet. Also, when Tom comes into Zach's room and he's like, what are you doing in here? And he's like. He tells him something, but it doesn't seem true.

[Rob Mahoney]

He says he was like looking for his A6.

[Joanna Robinson]

Yeah.

[Rob Mahoney]

When reality, he's probably digging out that burner phone or something like that.

[Joanna Robinson]

Okay. I think, I mean, there's just like

[Rob Mahoney]

a lot of random loose ends in this. For example, the idea of Tom coming to his son to take him fishing. And it's, It's. It's so clear. At least it was clear to me in the way that it's played in that moment that like Zack is of the age where he maybe is trying to distance himself from the stuff he did when he was a kid.

[Joanna Robinson]

Put away childish things, but also kind

[Rob Mahoney]

of wants to do it. And like him reliving that moment and like charcoal sketching out the trout later, there's clearly a relationship right there. And Tom, in his way. Yeah. The advice may not be perfect because it reflects his own imperfections, but he is trying to reach his son in like a really earnest place when they have their moment in the pool. And I don't know that we've seen any of that from Anna as of yet. Like, her relationship with her kids seems so much more distant, so much more like, practical. And even in the practical part, she can't show up for the driver's licensing.

[Joanna Robinson]

Yeah. And a bad mom, I'm not willing

[Rob Mahoney]

to go that far. But she's not a good mom.

[Joanna Robinson]

Tom.

[Rob Mahoney]

Great dad, definitely not willing to go that far. They both seem like quite bad parents. But some more Tom, at least in

[Joanna Robinson]

this episode, appears to be trying.

[Rob Mahoney]

He is attentive to the details he's showing up for the therapy appointment.

[Joanna Robinson]

Attentive to the details. All right, we're going to hand out some quick awards. Too dumb to live. Who's the most too dumb to live in this episode?

[Rob Mahoney]

Anna.

[Joanna Robinson]

Anna. Anna. It might be Anna every week, honestly, but it's definitely Anna.

[Rob Mahoney]

This week she showed up to a known murderer's house and was like, hi,

[Joanna Robinson]

you might be entitled to.

[Rob Mahoney]

I'm a lawyer. Thinking she can just ask all her cute questions, right? And it's gonna be totally fine.

[Joanna Robinson]

Right?

[Rob Mahoney]

What are you. This man is talking about how his snake needs more bones. What are you doing here?

[Joanna Robinson]

And she's like, that's cute. Can we talk about where you were the night of. Yeah, it's a lot. Anna. Too dumb to live.

[Rob Mahoney]

Come on.

[Joanna Robinson]

Trashiest moment.

[Rob Mahoney]

I think this has to be. Okay, here's the thing. Trashiest moment for the incest isn't great.

[Joanna Robinson]

It's incest.

[Rob Mahoney]

That's it.

[Joanna Robinson]

How is it not incest?

[Rob Mahoney]

Well, at least one of those characters doesn't know. Nevaeh may or may not know.

[Joanna Robinson]

Okay, what's your.

[Rob Mahoney]

I'm gonna say for the characters in the show?

[Joanna Robinson]

How are we defining trash?

[Rob Mahoney]

I think it's. It takes many forms and many styles

[Joanna Robinson]

because to me, it's like, what is the soapiest twist of this? Right.

[Rob Mahoney]

Okay, See, I was thinking, like, what is the trashiest behavior?

[Joanna Robinson]

Okay, what do you think? The trashy. Yeah. Cause I don't think. No, I don't think what Natalie does there is trashy because she doesn't know. I mean, she's broken into someone's house, but, like, she's a teenager exploring things, whatever that is.

[Rob Mahoney]

A Sophie. Trash.

[Joanna Robinson]

Trashy. At the show to be like, let's do some incest. We see some teenage girls.

[Rob Mahoney]

See, mine is some of both. I would say the trashiest decision is showing up to a random house. That's a pop up nipple piercing situation.

[Joanna Robinson]

Tough.

[Rob Mahoney]

Wouldn't do it.

[Joanna Robinson]

Yeah.

[Rob Mahoney]

The trashiest, like, filmmaking, cinematic choice in terms of the way the show is made is definitely the puncturing of the strawberry as the nipple piercing. It's both amazing and undeniably trashy.

[Joanna Robinson]

Very trashy. Let's just add to the incest argument, though, the triangulation of. She's also definitely slept with Zack. So Nevaeh slept with she. I think she has. I think they've done some stuff.

[Rob Mahoney]

He. He feels like she could have strung him along without actually doing a lot.

[Joanna Robinson]

But you think that's just a lip biting emoji and nothing else has happened she sent him, like, racy selfies. You think nothing else has happened?

[Rob Mahoney]

So do you think she has the lip biting emoji as her, like, profile avatar picture somewhere?

[Joanna Robinson]

He put that in there for her maybe. Gross.

[Rob Mahoney]

It feels like the kind of thing, unfortunately, he might do.

[Joanna Robinson]

So close.

[Rob Mahoney]

Why? It is. It is so much grosser if he did it, but I can't articulate why.

[Joanna Robinson]

Horrible. See, to scroll through all the emojis like, you know what I.

[Rob Mahoney]

That one.

[Joanna Robinson]

That's the one last, not least. What are we calling this?

[Rob Mahoney]

Weirdest line read?

[Joanna Robinson]

Weirdest line read.

[Rob Mahoney]

Yeah.

[Joanna Robinson]

I think we agree.

[Rob Mahoney]

Yeah. You want to do the honors?

[Joanna Robinson]

I don't know if I can. Do I have the cadence right? Nice car, Nice car. I'm jealous. Is that right? What is it like?

[Rob Mahoney]

It's a little Tommy Wiseau. Well, I think the opening is definitely a. Hey, so you gotta go, hey, nice car, nice ride. I'm jealous. I'm jealous also the way the particular relish. It was very funny. The relish that Javier Bardem puts on. Rideshers.

[Joanna Robinson]

Yeah.

[Rob Mahoney]

I mean, this is just one of our greatest working actors.

[Joanna Robinson]

Cheerio on your butt. Your cheerio on your ass.

[Rob Mahoney]

He's just. He's doing it in a way no one else can.

[Joanna Robinson]

He's menacing Rey here because Rey had the audacity to say, we're good. We don't need your help.

[Rob Mahoney]

Yeah.

[Joanna Robinson]

And he's like an obstacle. Let me fuck with him. So again, if you cross him, even in the slightest, he will come fuck with you in one way or another. And also on this sort of like, are they half siblings front, you know, should we connect what Juliet Lewis does to Amy Adams in her car? You know, like, in terms of, like, come up to the driver's side window and sort of like, reach in somehow? Never.

[Ad Read Announcer 2]

Great.

[Joanna Robinson]

I don't ever want anyone ever at my driver's side window if I'm like in the car and not expecting them. Like, that's. There's.

[Rob Mahoney]

See, I would have expected you would love that kind of thing.

[Joanna Robinson]

Oh, jump scare. That's what I'm just a friend. I'm just sort of like, don't do that. Well, yeah, text me that you saw

[Rob Mahoney]

my car

[Joanna Robinson]

and I'll find you.

[Rob Mahoney]

You know, I think it's good behavior. It's good advice for everybody.

[Joanna Robinson]

I had that happen where, like, someone saw me. Like, someone saw me in the Safeway parking lot and they're like, hey. And I'm like, no, they just popped up.

[Rob Mahoney]

Yeah, absolutely not in a.

[Joanna Robinson]

Also shout out Safeway now. I guess I have to shop at Vons. Whatever. For me.

[Rob Mahoney]

Don't creep up on anyone in their car. Don't stick your fingers into their window.

[Joanna Robinson]

No.

[Rob Mahoney]

Certainly don't reach in and grab the steering wheel to stop them from driving away.

[Joanna Robinson]

Nice car. Nice car. I'm jealous.

[Rob Mahoney]

And look, Ray is now totally on board.

[Joanna Robinson]

He.

[Rob Mahoney]

I think he fully understands the Max Katie situation. Now. Before, he was wondering, like, is this really it? Anna, are you sure that this guy is capable of these things now? He's experienced a little bit of it. I feel like he kind of gets the gist.

[Joanna Robinson]

He's done some detective work.

[Rob Mahoney]

Clearly he's the one tying things together as far as Nevaeh's parentage goes.

[Joanna Robinson]

Any of the questions you have, anything you want to talk about going forward before we unveil the board?

[Rob Mahoney]

I would say two things to flag one, at the SCAD art show, we get a clip of Alfred Hitchcock's Shadow of a Doubt, a movie about a charming but ultimately suspicious man and the people in his life kind of starting to put the clues together. Can't think of how it would possibly relate.

[Joanna Robinson]

Joe, do you like Shadow of a Doubt?

[Rob Mahoney]

It's honestly been a very long time since I've seen it. Yeah, I would say I liked it. Not upper Hitchcock for me.

[Joanna Robinson]

I would like to wonder how Joseph Cotton would deliver. Nice car. Nice car. I'm jealous.

[Rob Mahoney]

Just nobody put that into any AI system, please. We don't want to wish that on anyone. This is strictly wonder and whimsy.

[Joanna Robinson]

I don't want to see it. Yeah. Shadow of Doubt, which is a great movie, sort of slightly remade into the movie Stoker, which is a movie we both really like. I feel like we talked about. Talked about this recently, though I can't remember why. Shadow of the Dunsto.

[Rob Mahoney]

It's never a bad time to talk about Cherwick Park. So, like, you know.

[Joanna Robinson]

All right, what's your other thing you want to.

[Rob Mahoney]

Oh, just like. So the sjlp, when they're trying to get movement on Ruben Ramirez's case, before Max has started compelling people to help, they have this press conference. I thought it was yet another moment of sort of like the celebrity of true crime obfuscating and, like, eclipsing anything else, Right? Like, Max, the idea of was bring him into the fold, was going to help them, like, raise funds, raise awareness, be something they could leverage and weaponize. It's so clear that even his public presence is totally outside their control.

[Joanna Robinson]

Well, like, when he shows up, the car dealer, not just, like, the guy that he is like, remember when I fucked your wife so hard she broke a blood vessel in her eye? And I feel like we would be remiss if we did not repeat that line. But also then the other guy's like, hey, Max, Katie and my car. You know, like, he is so famous locally that this is how they're reacting.

[Rob Mahoney]

So. And this can't be the last that we hear from the Katie Hawks. They. They will play a role in the back part of the season somewhere.

[Joanna Robinson]

Add them to the board.

[Rob Mahoney]

Let's do it.

[Joanna Robinson]

Okay. Anything else?

[Rob Mahoney]

Let's. Let's go to the board.

[Joanna Robinson]

Let's bring out the board. All right. Week three of this podcast. Week two of the board. We've got the cards that we're going to add. We're not going to do that on camera right now. We will do it eventually.

[Rob Mahoney]

Is that bonus content? Is that, like, subscriber only stuff? Us struggling with string, slowly pin things to a board. Like, everybody's into something.

[Joanna Robinson]

We have started the stringing process. It's not a complete process. Obviously. We have yet to connect for sure. Sex to, like, Natalie and. And Nevaeh, for example.

[Rob Mahoney]

Is that our first confirmed sex? I guess so. I mean, other than children being born. So somebody had sex.

[Joanna Robinson]

Tom and Anna had sex at one point for sure. Sex.

[Rob Mahoney]

We can only assume.

[Joanna Robinson]

But yeah, here we are. I mean, Tabitha and her cameraman, I guess. But that's just like a one card to one card situation.

[Rob Mahoney]

Yeah.

[Joanna Robinson]

Anyway, so this is our. Our. The beginning of the string. It's only going to get more demented from here. Rob has requested images to add to the board.

[Rob Mahoney]

I would.

[Joanna Robinson]

I think next week we're gonna do this a little differently, but we just wanted to give a board checkup. Anything you wanna say? Any connection you're most eager to draw here?

[Rob Mahoney]

The one I'm eager to, but also terrified of is Peanut Butter the cat over here. Connecting to. I mean, some of the more insidious characters in our story.

[Joanna Robinson]

What about Peanut butter the cat down through cooking the cooking card.

[Rob Mahoney]

Cooking to dry turkey to Max.

[Joanna Robinson]

Don't cook the cat, please.

[Rob Mahoney]

Is the cat gonna get eaten? The cat could get eaten on this show.

[Joanna Robinson]

That's what I'm saying. Peanut Butter to cooking. Not the dried turkey to Max. Max Keaton gonna cook the cat?

[Rob Mahoney]

I really hope not.

[Joanna Robinson]

Is it called Peanut Butter for a reason? We still don't have a name for Juliette Lewis character.

[Rob Mahoney]

No. Or. Or Ethan Embry's character, I don't believe.

[Joanna Robinson]

Right. Nothing official for Ethan Embry's character.

[Rob Mahoney]

What about you, Jo, where are you looking to get some clarity or some connection on this board?

[Joanna Robinson]

We already drew this connection in advance, but I am curious about the. Like Juliette Lewis to Amy and Melissa. You know, the fact that this character knew Amy and Melissa and Anna was asking a question. You knew Amy, Right? So if Anna wants to do her due diligence, she should continue to ask Juliette Lewis more questions, which means we get those two actresses in more scenes, which is exciting to me personally, as

[Rob Mahoney]

it should be for all of us. Also, I'm wondering, like, what color string, if we wanted to, you know, just vary things up a little bit.

[Joanna Robinson]

You already vetoed more colored string because we can't even read Anna's name at this point.

[Rob Mahoney]

Honestly, we can't. And she's only gonna have strings and more connections. But I'm just wondering what kind of visual marker could correctly signify for Lexi to Zach to Tom. I have watched you make out with my dad on our home couch. Like, right, right. What suggests that to you?

[Joanna Robinson]

That's like a neon pink situation.

[Rob Mahoney]

I think then we might have. We might have two strengths. At least two. That seems important to me.

[Joanna Robinson]

Beside every person, there are two strengths, and one of them is neon pink. All right, so again, we did get some suggestions from folks. We do still want to add, like, the nail gun. There's, like, a few other things that we want to put up here, but. Yeah. Prestige [e-mail] thinkofabycarrotmail.com I am concerned that

[Rob Mahoney]

incest might need to be, like, right in the middle of the board. It's going to connect to so many things very quickly.

[Joanna Robinson]

Should I make it a bigger car?

[Rob Mahoney]

It might. We might need to replace keeper with just incest.

[Joanna Robinson]

We have added cuck to Tom's car. I mean, so, you know, you live by the cuck, you die by the cuck.

[Rob Mahoney]

If the chair fits, you know, do

[Joanna Robinson]

you want to add step cuck to that or cuck shadowing somewhere?

[Rob Mahoney]

The board is a work in progress. It's a living document.

[Joanna Robinson]

Cape Fear, Colin Cook shadowing. All right, we'll see you soon. Bye.

[Rob Mahoney]

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[Joanna Robinson]

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