'Death by Lightning': Netflix's Hit Garfield Assassination Show, With Mike Makowsky | Prestige TV

Summary

The Prestige TV Podcast: ‘Death by Lightning’—Netflix’s Garfield Assassination Show

Guest: Mike Makowsky (Showrunner/Creator)
Host: Joanna Robinson
Published: November 18, 2025

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Episode Overview

This episode is a deep-dive interview with Mike Makowsky, the creator and showrunner of Netflix’s hit mini-series Death by Lightning, which dramatizes the assassination of President James Garfield. Joanna Robinson and Makowsky explore the show's inspirations, adaptation challenges, historical accuracy, and vibrant character portrayals, with standout moments discussing the show’s unique tone, creative choices, and lasting themes on memory and legacy.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Genesis and Structure of the Series

• Format Choices:
  • Death by Lightning emerged as a four-episode mini-series, though Makowsky originally envisioned six episodes. Both creative reasons and Netflix’s approval process led to the condensed format.
    • Makowsky: “I did initially write it as a six episode limited series… to get the show across the finish line at all, to get greenlit, it just needed to be… condensed to its current form, which was four episodes.” (02:39)
• Feature Film vs. Mini-Series:
  • Makowsky felt the story was too expansive for a film, given its rich historical and character-driven content.

2. Guiteau’s Trial and Omissions

• Considering the Trial:
  • Makowsky wrote an entire episode for Guiteau’s infamous insanity defense trial, notable in American legal history.
    • “I wrote a whole trial episode. And ultimately what I realized… doing a weird Charles Guiteau power hour after losing Garfield as this counterweight, it felt imbalanced.” (03:41)
  • Encourages viewers to dive into further reading, notably Candice Millard’s Destiny of the Republic, the show’s primary source.

3. Personal Discovery and Historical Interest

• Makowsky’s Entry Point:
  • He discovered Garfield’s assassination by chance, seeking a third book in a buy-two-get-one sale.
    • “I knew nothing about James Garfield, aside from… I think I was mildly aware of the fact that he’d been assassinated vis a vis Stephen Sondheim, let’s say.” (05:29)
  • The research experience was defined by disbelief and curiosity, constantly cross-referencing Wikipedia to verify the wild events.

4. Adapting History for Television

• Cinematic Moments and Challenges:

  • The 1880 Republican National Convention was flagged as inherently cinematic—a set-piece full of drama, chaos, and absurdity.
    • “The situational absurdity of that massive set piece was just incredibly exciting to me.” (08:08)
  • Garfield’s improbable nomination—his rise analogous to a reluctant “Jon Snow” archetype, masking real ambition.

• Portraying Political Complexity:

  • Makowsky discusses the challenge of making 19th-century political machinations fresh and compelling to modern audiences.
    • “Part of the adaptation process is… giving it a little bit more of a contemporary engine… and that filters into the conversation about anachronistic language.” (15:56)
  • Contemporary language and black comedy elements were intentional to “grab people by the lapels” and break the stuffy period drama mold.

5. Character Studies: Ambition, Ego, Legacy

• Garfield and Guiteau’s Shared Qualities:
  • Despite surface differences, the series juxtaposes the ambition of Garfield and Guiteau.
    • “What was incredibly fascinating to me was… the middle of that Venn diagram, like, what do these two guys actually have in common?… ambition, the desire to matter.” (12:20)
• Portraying Garfield's Complexity:
  • Michael Shannon's nuanced performance is highlighted for bringing out the simmering ambition beneath Garfield’s noble surface.

6. Casting and Performance Revelations

• All-Star Casts and Standouts:
  • The cast includes Michael Shannon (Garfield), Matthew Macfadyen (Guiteau), Betty Gilpin (Lucretia Garfield), Nick Offerman, Bradley Whitford, and more.
• Betty Gilpin’s Impact:
  • Gilpin’s deep research into Lucretia Garfield helped bring a new dimension to the character, emphasizing the emotional intelligence and constrained agency of women in that era.
    • “Lucretia really came to life in a way that I didn’t necessarily expect… she’s sort of disappointed by her husband’s question.” (21:59)
• Notable Acting Choices:
  • Macfadyen’s portrayal of Guiteau is singled out, especially in scenes where other characters recognize his instability. His emotional encounter with Garfield was surprising in its intensity.
    • “Matthew just burst into tears as soon as he saw Garfield… I think that’s sort of like a cute, visceral [moment]. That was all Matthew.” (26:01)

7. Creative License and Fact vs. Fiction

• Historical Accuracy:
  • The show is praised for fidelity to real events, with some rhetorical modernization.
    • “I would say probably 70, 30 to the actual language… Garfield was an incredible speechwriter and orator, and I tried to compromise as little as possible on his language.” (18:31)
• Behind Closed Doors:
  • Office scenes between Garfield and Guiteau are based on scant records but dramatized into emotional high points.

8. Period Drama Trends and Greenlighting Challenges

• Convincing Networks:
  • Makowsky reflects on the lack of initial enthusiasm for a Garfield miniseries in a landscape obsessed with “sex, mud, and cursing” period pieces à la The Gilded Age or Peaky Blinders.
    • “When I first told my agent I wanted to adapt this… he looked at me like I had three heads.” (20:00)
• Mandate to Stand Out:
  • The tepid industry response strengthened Makowsky’s resolve to make a show that insisted on the audience’s attention.

9. Striking and Memorable Scenes

• Closed-Door Office Meeting:
  • The emotional confrontation between Garfield and Guiteau became a centerpiece, driven unexpectedly by Macfadyen’s spontaneous emotionality and Shannon’s genuine reactions.
    • “It’s all genuine. Michael’s like, oh, oh, no.” (26:01)
• Guiteau’s Fate and Final Performance:
  • The show dramatizes Guiteau’s final moments, including singing “I am Going to the Lordy”—a nod to both reality and Sondheim’s Assassins. Macfadyen’s performance is praised for its depth and dark comedy.
    • “That massive delta between his expectations and reality, that even in his final moments, he thinks if he puts on this, like, fun show that it will have some effect on his audience…” (31:45)
  • The realization that he is not received as he imagines is poignantly captured.
    • “You just see, like, in that final moment, Gatto realizes that it wasn't worth it.” (34:18)

10. Opening and Closing the Show—Brains in Jars and Legacies

• Opening in 1969:
  • The show’s modern opening (Sly and the Family Stone playing over a brain in a jar—Guiteau's actual preserved brain) was designed to instantly disrupt expectations of a musty costume drama.
    • “I loved the idea of starting with a 1960s song… the most unexpected way possible to start the show.” (34:43, 36:12)
  • Makowsky visited the real brain at a military facility, discovering that Guiteau’s remains sit alphabetically adjacent to Ham the space chimp, contrasting with Garfield’s dignified resting place.

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Notable Quotes & Moments with Timestamps

• On why the show is 4 episodes:
  “To get the show across the finish line at all, to get greenlit, it just needed to be… condensed to its current form, which was four episodes.”
  — Makowsky (02:39)

• On Guiteau’s defense:
  “His pitch was, I may have shot Garfield. That didn’t kill him. The doctors killed him. Which is correct.”
  — Makowsky (03:22)

• On approaching adaptation:
  “Wanted to do everything in my power to kind of grab people by the lapels in the same way and be like, no, no, this is really cool and fun and weird and fucked up. I don’t know if I’m allowed to curse. But you are.”
  — Makowsky (16:48–17:31)

• On Michael Shannon as Garfield:
  “There is nothing simple about Michael Shannon. I think that that was part of the draw of casting him, is you can always tell that there’s something simmering under the surface with this guy, even when he is projecting the most noble version of James Garfield.”
  — Makowsky (13:54)

• On Lucretia Garfield and women’s legacies:
  “The women in this era know better than to think that their names are going to be etched in the annals of American history… But what she can do, the power that she does have, is to deny that to Guiteau.”
  — Makowsky (24:55)

• On Guiteau’s delusions at the gallows:
  “Even in his final moments, he thinks if he puts on this, like, fun show that it will have some effect on his audience… you just see, like, in that final moment, Gatto realizes that it wasn’t worth it.”
  — Makowsky (31:45, 34:18)

• On opening with a brain in a jar:
  “I loved the idea of starting with a 1960s song… the most unexpected way possible to start the show.”
  — Makowsky (36:12)

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Timestamps for Important Segments

• [02:39] — Why the show is four episodes; adaptation process
• [03:22] — Guiteau’s trial and legal defense
• [05:29] — Makowsky’s discovery of the Garfield story
• [08:08] — Convention scene and Garfield’s nomination
• [12:20] — Parallels between Garfield and Guiteau
• [15:56] — Adapting period drama for modern sensibilities
• [18:31] — Balancing factual speeches with contemporary language
• [20:00] — TV industry skepticism and greenlighting challenges
• [21:59] — Acting revelations: Betty Gilpin as Lucretia
• [26:01] — The Garfield-Guiteau office meeting scene
• [29:35] — Presidential security, historical context
• [31:45] — Guiteau’s gallows moment & Sondheim’s Assassins
• [34:43, 36:12] — Brains in jars, opening sequence choice
• [37:31] — Strange resting places for Guiteau and Garfield

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Closing Thoughts

Makowsky and Robinson’s conversation demystifies Death by Lightning’s blend of black comedy, modern language, and deep historical research. The episode highlights the show’s mission to revitalize obscure history for modern viewers and reflects with empathy on ambition, legacy, and the often-forgotten figures behind pivotal historical events. If you haven’t seen the series yet, this episode is certain to pique your curiosity—and if you have, it provides a rich behind-the-scenes perspective on its creation.

Transcript

[A]

Oh, hello. Welcome back to the Prestige TV podcast feed. I'm Joanna Robinson. We have very special sort of mini episode for you today. We've got the showrunner creator of Netflix's Death by Lightning. Mike Makowski is here to talk about this incredible Netflix show that has been. A lot of people have been talking about it burning up the charts on Netflix. This is, if you haven't seen it, this is a show about. It's a four episode miniseries about the assassination of President James Garfield. Michael Shannon plays Garfield. Matthew McFadden plays Charles Guiteau who assassinated him. And it is really compelling watchable television. Since this came out a little while ago, a couple weeks ago, we just sort of talked about the whole series. So there are, if you consider history spoilers. There are spoiler for his spoilers for history. We talked about a lot of the choices, including some that are specifically happened in the finale. So if you haven't seen it yet, I really urge you to go watch it. It's incredible show. You should, you should really watch it and then come back. But if you've already seen it, let's go now to our conversation with Mike McGowsky.

[B]

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[A]

Let me start by asking you. I'm always fascinated by length of projects, especially on something like Netflix where the seasons can sort of expand and contract. This is for, you know, episodes. Was there ever a version of this project that was a feature film length? Since you've done. You've worked in that arena before.

[C]

You know, I always felt like the story was potentially a little too expansive to be a feature film. I did initially write it as a six episode limited series, all cards on the table. And for both creative reasons and also frankly, to get the show across the finish line at all, to get greenlit, it just needed to be sort of condensed to its current form, which was four episodes.

[A]

I meant to ask this question. I was gonna ask this question later, but this is convenient. I'll ask it now. Was there ever an impulse to do Guiteau's trial since it was such an outlandish piece of theater itself?

[C]

Yeah, I mean, for those who don't know, Guiteau was one of the first insanity defenses in our country. And essentially his pitch was, I may have shot Garfield. That didn't kill him. The doctors killed him. Which is correct.

[A]

Kind of what your show says too.

[C]

Yeah, yeah. And the trial was such a farce in many ways. The only lawyer in America that would ever agree to represent him was his poor patent law, patent lawyer brother in law, George, who hated him and had no criminal defense experience. And Guiteau spent most of the trial berating him. And yeah, I mean, it was a real tantalizing prospect and set piece. And I wrote a whole trial episode. And ultimately what I realized, cause the trial took place after Garfield's death that just doing a weird Charles Guiteau power hour after losing Garfield as this counterweight, it felt imbalanced. Obviously there's, I think, part of me that wishes that I could have shown the trial. But as with so many of the things that we unfortunately couldn't fit into four hours. I hope that this provokes people who are curious to go on Wikipedia or read Candace Millard's book Destiny of the Republic that I adapted, or any of the other really fascinating literature written about Garfield and Guiteau. The Wikipedia rabbit holes are endless for this particular story.

[A]

I love my impulse always when I'm watching sort of a. An adaptation of a moment in history that I don't know anything about. And the impulse to go on Wikipedia while you're watching, but again, not want to spoil yourself by history. I mean, we know where this is ending and how, but sort of what are the steps along the way? But you're like, oh, I just want to. I'll just wait. I'll wait until the end and then I will go down all the rabbit holes.

[C]

You know, it very much reflected my experience reading Candace's book for the first time. Just to get it out of the way. I knew nothing about James Garfield, aside from. I think I was mildly aware of the fact that he'd been assassinate vis a vis Stephen Sondheim, let's say.

[A]

But I was going to bring that up for sure.

[C]

I was at the buy to get one free table at my local Barnes and Noble, and I needed a third book. And this is absolutely true. It is not apocryphal. I'm sure I can procure the receipt. This was in 2018, and I needed a third book. And I picked up this book about the Garfield assassination, and I read the back cover and I was just like, I know nothing about this, but I would love to be on Jeopardy. One day and I should educate myself. Right? And I finally, you know, picked up the book and read it, and I ended up reading it in one sitting. And I was just completely and utterly blown away by pretty much all of the details surrounding this poor man and his assassination. And I feel like I had to continue every five pages or so jumping over to Wikipedia, like, hopefully, you know, because I couldn't believe that this shit was true. I just. I could not believe that that convention actually happened.

[A]

Right, exactly.

[C]

Or that Chester Arthur. I knew nothing about Chester Arthur.

[A]

I knew about the character.

[C]

All these.

[A]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, exactly.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

Nick.

[C]

I will say Offerman was the only one of the main actors in the show to successfully grow out his full facial hair. Those mutton chops are all him. He was walking around Budapest for five months with those mutton chops.

[A]

I feel like only he could pull that off in like your day to day walking around the street. Thank you for saying Stephen Sondheim before I did. So I didn't have to be the first one to say it. I will come back to Assassins. But I was curious in terms of reading through this book, what were the moments that leapt off the page to you as sort of like, this is cinematic in and of itself. Like, this is just gonna be electric. And then what were the. More. How on earth do I make this easily digestible? Like this political nuance or these sort of. Maybe in some other adaptations, drier conversations, like, how do I keep them alive? Like, what was the thing that you were like, this is gonna be a cakewalk. And then this is gonna be really tough to adapt?

[C]

Well, yeah, to speak to the first point, it really starts with that convention, right. 1880 Chicago Republican National Convention. And what happens, for those who have not watched the show yet, is Garfield, James Garfield. Who was this? Who I think Kendice does a really, really amazing job at presenting this, this, him, as one of the great what ifs in American history. Yeah, this progressive hero, this, this man born into abject poverty, who literally falls upward to the highest office in the land ostensibly against his will. A war hero, a. An outspoken advocate for civil rights and racial equality and universal public education and civil service reform. Just truly the best man for the job and who allegedly doesn't even really want it. His name is not in the ballot in 1880. When stepping into that convention, he's there to nominate a spoiler candidate. And his speech is so powerful and presents such a strong vision for the future of our country while also grappling with the thorniness of the past, that some guy stands up in the rafters and shouts, we want Garfield. Which was a sort of weird moment. But after a 36 round deadlock among the delegates, people start looking to other candidates because no one's reached a quorum. And it's very clear to everyone there that Garfield exhibits a lot of the raw qualities of leadership that the nation had really been starving for at this particular juncture in history. And he's nominated against his will. He tries to shut it down and ends up receiving overwhelming support. So for me, it's. The situational absurdity of that massive set piece was just incredibly exciting to me. There's just so much bound up in that. And having these figures like Roscoe Conkling and James Blaine and Chester Arthur circling around Garfield, what it means for Garfield to step up and give that speech to begin with. This man who claims he doesn't want it, but you don't give in Obama in 2004 speech.

[A]

Right.

[C]

If you don't kind of want it.

[A]

I love this. I'll come back to that second part of the question. But I do want to divert and say, after I watched your show, I did the Wikipedia rabbit holes, but I also guzzled up everyone's sort of like, fact versus fiction, like what this show got right versus sort of what it embellished for dramatic effect and stuff like that. And most of them are like, wow, this is way more factual than this stuff usually is. Way, way closer to what, um, obviously there's rhetorical updates which we will get to. But I, I thought it was so interesting that some people were saying, hey, Garfield was way more of a political operator than it seems like he's not just like a farmer, like he was, you know, a career politician for a long time before he did this. But what I thought, what I loved about your adaptation is at the end You've got this moment when Garfield says to his wife, like, I knew what I was doing when I walked to that podium. I wanted them to know me. So you, you have this sort, forgive me, this is a Weiss and Benioff production. So this sort of like Jon Snow, I don't want it like character at the beginning, but at the end he has this sort of like. But did I kind of want it? And I was just wondering sort of where you land on. On Garfield's psychology and giving that speech.

[C]

Well, there's a little bit of Ned Stark in him as well, I think.

[A]

Yeah, yeah.

[B]

And.

[C]

And like Ned Stark, unfortunately, he doesn't make it. But, you know, it's interesting, I think, in sort of positioning it as a parallel journey between Garfield and his assassin, who, on the face of it, these two men couldn't be more different from one another. And one succeeds, falls upward, while the other just fails miserably over and over again. But what was incredibly fascinating to me was that, like, the middle of that Venn diagram, like, what do these two guys actually have in common? And what do a lot of men in this political era have in common is the ambition, the desire to matter. Again, Garfield doesn't step up on that stage unless he wants people to know him. That is also Guiteau's governing ethos. Right. Like he wants to matter. He wants to be recognized, he wants to be re remembered. And I think it is that ambition that actually makes them a lot more similar than we might assume at the start of the journey. But in Guiteau's case, it is very blatant. In Garfield's, there's a bit more of a latent quality that wants to tease out over the course of the series that he is not a pure, lawful good.

[A]

Right. It's fascinating. And Michael Shannon's performance is so good.

[C]

Yeah. And there's nothing. I mean, lawful good runs the risk of feeling simple or easy. There is nothing simple about Michael Shannon. I think that that was part of the draw of casting him, is you can always tell that there's something simmering under the surface with this guy, even when he is projecting the most noble version of James Garfield.

[B]

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[B]

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[A]

Convention leaps off the page. This is sort of a cinematic set piece. What were the elements that you were like, this is going to be tougher for me to figure out how to make it digestible, especially in sort of a four episode context.

[C]

Yeah, I mean really on a macro level, I knew that the buy in was going to be incredibly tricky to get people to even want to engage with a story about James Garfield. You know, like I really, I like to align with the 2% of history nerds that would readily consume James Garfield and Chester Arthur. I like to believe that I'm one of those people, but I will say that almost no one else in my life is a part of that 2%. They're in the other 98%. And I spent, I mean this was about a seven year process all in. I spent most of those seven years just like grabbing people by the lapels like a crazy person being like James Gar, like, this is my Roman Empire. So, you know, part of the adaptation process is, is giving it a little bit more of a contemporary engine, a little bit more of a sense of modern immediacy to it. And that filters into the conversation about anachronistic language. I wanted it to feel modern and it felt like rather than just presenting it as a sheer docudrama that, again, I think would only really appeal to that 2%. Like, wanted to do everything in my power to kind of grab people by the lapels in the same way and be like, no, no, this is really cool and fun and weird and fucked up. I don't know if I'm allowed to curse. But you are.

[A]

Go for it.

[C]

Great. And a lot of that just has to do with the humor, too. And I remember reading Candace's book and laughing a lot. Not that the book is written with a lot of explicit levity or mirth, but there is that deeply ingrained sense of situational absurdity to these larger than life figures. Or, you know, Gatto getting kicked out of a sex commune. Like, it. Just to present, like the most straightforward version of all of those scenes and characters, I think would actually be to do a disservice to who they are and why they mattered.

[A]

Yeah, I love that. And for the record, I loved the contemporary language. I was curious about Garfield's speech. So there are moments of sort of making the language contemporary, and then were there certain things that felt sacred, like, we don't want to. How accurate was the speech that he gave at the convention?

[C]

Yeah, I would say probably 70, 30 to the actual language. But at times, again, to just make it feel a little bit more modern, I kind of just updated some of the verbiage because, you know, like any speech given in 1880, there's a little bit of a limited accessibility to. But certainly, you know, Garfield was an incredible speechwriter and orator, and I tried to compromise as little as possible on his language and. And the overall just intentionality behind it.

[A]

Yeah, I'm curious. So you mentioned this idea of getting this greenlit, getting this past the finish line. I'm curious about this sort of moment in period adaptations that we're in when you have something like the Gilded Age on hbo, when you've got what Steven Knight is doing with Peaky Blinders into sort of like House of Guinness. What do you think is so appealing right now to this kind of, you know, we're not doing. We are. We're still always doing Jane Austen. Don't worry, there will always be Jane Austen new period pieces. I just got an email about the new sense sensibility today. Like, it's always gonna be Jane Austen, but like this sort of like down and gritty, muddy cursing, sex, like, adaptation kind of era that we're in, you know?

[C]

Yeah, that's a great question. I mean, I've watched both of those shows and like them quite a bit. But I really can only speak to my own journey. And all I can say is there was not like a ready made market for the James Garfield show. Like when I first told my agent I wanted to adapt this, this book about James Garfield as a TV show, he looked at me like I had three heads, like I was just totally fucking insane. And we got a lot of no's before we ever got to yes, including from Netflix, the fine folks at Netflix who eventually agreed to make the show. I mean, it was a really, really difficult journey. And the question that we got back most often from anyone that we presented the script to or the book to was, sure, but who the fuck cares about James Garfield? Which then just kind of gave us that mandate to push all the harder to do that lapel grabbing.

[A]

So, you know, I will admit and say if someone says, hey, there's an adaptation of the life and death of James Garfield and Guiteau, my Stephen Sondheim assassin's love aside, which again, I will come back to, that is not necessarily grabbing by the lapels. And then I started reading the cast list and I was like, michael Shannon's in this. Matthew McFadden's in this. Betty Gilpin's in this. Shaya Wigham's in this. All my favorites are here. This is incredible. I'm so excited. I was like astounded and excited about this. Was there. I mean, everyone's incredible. Nick Offerman's great, Bradley Whitford's great. Everyone's fantastic. Was there a performance, though, among these great performances that particularly sort of changed your understanding of these characters that you've already spent years and years and years with, and you saw one of these actors or any of these actors pick it up and say, oh, there's something even more here that I, that I, you know, that I realized, yeah, I.

[C]

Mean, all of them brought just an incredible amount of passion and intellectual curiosity to their parts and did way more research on their individual subjects than I probably did like reading multiple books, which is amazing. It's what you want and what you hope for. Definitely. Betty Gilpin, though, read more than anyone else, including a full compendium of all of the letters written between James Garfield and Lucretia Crete, his wife. Lucretia is such a fascinating character. She was only the second first lady ever to have attended college. In fact, she attended this local university in Ohio where she met her husband, and she was the editor of the school paper and he was the night custodian mopping floors in order to Pay his tuition and every bit his intellectual equal. But given the time that she's in, she can't even vote for her husband. I think especially when you have an actor that's as strong as Betty and is emotionally attuned as well. I feel like Lucretia really came to life in a way that I didn't necessarily expect. And we spent a lot of time talking about that last scene between her and Gatto and what that should really represent. And what I love about Crete is. And it's kind of a bummer, but all of the men in the show are governed by ego to some extent. Like, they believe that the benchmark of whether or not their lives were successful is that future generations will talk about them. The last question that Garfield ever asks on his deathbed, both in real life and in the show, is, do you figure my name might have some place in human history? Even on his deathbed, this is the central concern for him. And Crete says, yes, a grand one, but the grander one still in human hearts. And, you know, you can see it in Betty's eyes. It's like she's sort of disappointed by her husband's question. Like, it's. But she also doesn't know how to do anything other than to give him what he wants in that moment, which is acknowledgement that, like, yeah, of course history is going to remember you. Which we all know watching the show. History did not remember James Garfield, or if they did, they remember him as a very obscure footnote in, like, assassination lore. But she gets to have that conversation with Guiteau at the very end were, you know, she really kind of like calls out the men in this era for like, like, like, why do they care so deeply about this? The women in this era know. Know better than to think that their names are going to be etched in the annals of American history. And, you know, it's just they've. Nothing in their lived experience has shown them that history gives a fuck about them in this era. But what she can do, the power that she does have, is to deny that to Guiteau.

[A]

It's a great scene. It's a great moment. I really loved it. I also was completely electrified by sort of this closed door scene between Guiteau and Garfield when Garfield is sort of taking all comers into office hours, essentially, and Guiteau comes in and sort of talks to him, that scene. I'm always fascinated by historical adaptations that try to recreate or not try to successfully sort of imagine behind closed doors conversations. So sort of like what was that as. As a sort of a creative challenge for you. This sort of these two men alone in a room behind a closed door.

[C]

So it's really like their. Their heat moment in so many ways. Like, they have very, very few scenes together and that is their real one dialogue scene together. Mike Shannon and Matthew McFaddy didn't get to know each other super well in this production because usually when there was a Garfield block, Matthew would go home to London and vice versa. And this also had the benefit of being, I believe, Matthew's second to last day of shooting. So the very end of the journey, Guiteau gets to finally meet the wizard. And, you know, historical record is pretty light. We know that Guiteau was able to meet for about five minutes with Garfield at the White House because he just kept showing up every single day, day in and day out. Garfield, like all presidents in his era, took open office hours. So eventually any constituent could, you know, meet the chief civil servant in our country, which is obviously absurd, wild by today's understanding. When Matthew sat down, I think none of us were expecting the level of emotion. Like, even when I wrote the scene, I didn't necessarily think of it as an emotional climax to a journey. The dialogue is pretty much unchanged. But this is just the difference between an actor reading the lines and an actor just embodying the role. Matthew just burst into tears as soon as he saw Garfield. And I don't know if that was planned or if it was just like he had spent the preceding four months begging every single day to meet Garfield, both as an actor and as a character. And I think that that's sort of like a cute, visceral. That was all Matthew. And that's the reason that people talk about that scene. It's not the writing, it's Matthew's face and Michael in real time. Garfield doesn't know how to deal with him. You can see it in Michael's eyes because we cross cut it. It's all genuine. Michael's like, oh, oh, no.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

And I have to imagine, I do think in real life, I'm sure that it was not as emotional of a moment for either Guiteau or Garfield, but no, it really is the centerpiece of the show, which was not necessarily what I even thought was going to be the scene that people would be talking about when I first wrote it.

[A]

It's so good.

[C]

And that's all just. It's just a testament to those two guys.

[A]

Matthew's performance is, again, everyone is amazing. But one of my favorite things about all of these episodes is sort of the moment when someone is talking to Guiteau and they realize that they're dealing with someone sort of unhinged or unwell, you know what I mean? And they're just sort of like, oh, let me back away from the. Or how do, like, what kind of kid gloves do I need to put on to, like, get out of this conversation as. As quickly or as elegantly as possible? And, and, and again, in those sort of, like, fact or fiction articles that I was devouring, and they were all like, yes, you could get this close to a president, to a Secretary of state. You could bang on their door, you could walk up to them in the street. That's just what it was like. You know, if you were in D.C. at that time, which is completely wild.

[C]

There was no Secret Service during this period. I believe the Secret Service was only ever established 20 years after that. When McKinley was assassinated, Garfield never, ever thought that anyone would ever want to kill him. It was just not. It didn't even occur to him. There had been one presidential assassination prior to this point, 15 years before. Lincoln had been assassinated by a Confederate sympathizer days after the Civil War. But that was very bound up in sort of just like the heat of wartime. And, you know, because there was no social media or like, like, the idea of, like, even, like, who the president was or what they looked like, like, like, fame just meant something very, very different back then. And when Garfield was asked if he would want to pay out of pocket for his own private security, he famously said, assassination can be no more. More guarded against than death by lightning. And it's best not to worry, too. Which, of course, as soon as I read that line in Candace's book, I was like, why did you call your book that?

[A]

You were like, highlighttab. Okay, this is the part of the conversation where I can only be myself and talk to you about Stephen Sondheim and Assassins. I think Matthew's performance is so good as Guito that it got me excited to go watch fuzzy YouTube videos of Denis Ohare's Guiteau, which is incredible in, you know, one of the revivals of Stephen Sondheim's Assassins, where in that play, famously, Guiteau, like, cakewalks his way up the up to the gallows singing I am going to the Lordy, which, of course, was something that Guiteau actually said when he went to the gallows. Still, I did the sort of Leo pointing meme when Matthew started singing. Not reciting, but singing I am Going to the Lordy at the. So, like, how much are you, you know, as you're spending years and years and years developing this, how much are you engaging with probably the only other sort of core cultural examination of Guiteau that we've had in the last.

[C]

I also watch those fuzzy YouTube videos, but I can't claim to be a devout adherent to musical theater. I have never seen Assassins still, but I have seen specifically Denis o' Hare's rendition of him going to the Lordy for sure. You know, such a weird moment to try and dramatize because you really feel, reading the historical record, what the fuck was this guy thinking in his final moments singing this dumb song that can't have gone over well. And for me, it all just sort of came back to the ethos with Guiteau, which is just that massive delta between his expectations and reality, that even in his final moments, he thinks if he puts on this, like, fun show that it will have some effect on his audience. And I can't imagine that any of the spectators receiving the execution felt anything other than abject horror and mild confusion.

[A]

Right.

[C]

Which I think is reflected in the show as well. For me, it really is all about. And as great as Matthew's rendition of him going to Lordy is, he's very committed, and that was a very. I don't know if it was a fun day on set, but he was trying all kinds of voices because we took a lot of just fun swings to see what the most effective version of it was would be. I remember standing just under the gallows in Video Village. But it's that last. It's that final moment before the lever drops where he. I wanted to give him that moment. And I don't think in real life he necessarily had this moment. I have no idea how he received the crowd staring in horror back at him. But when you have an actor as good as Matthew, it's like to play in his final moments of life that realization that Lucretia Garfield the night before was right. That I don't think that the way that I'm coming across is the way that I actually am being received.

[A]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. That, like, it's that.

[C]

Oh, it's just like.

[A]

Oh.

[C]

And you just see, like, in that final moment, Gatto realizes that it wasn't worth it.

[A]

That's really good. It was amazing. Last question for you is you've got this interesting sort of bookend idea of, we opened in 1969 with a brain in the jar, sort of. What were you Wanting to accomplish with that sort of thing.

[C]

You mean the spraying?

[A]

Yeah, yeah. Oh, nice. Gross.

[C]

Yeah, I took it.

[A]

What is it made out of? What is it made out of?

[C]

That's a great question. We had an incredible props department that spent way too much time. I actually got to go physically see the brain. The brain is. It's actually been split into a couple of parts. But I went to this military base in Maryland. I had to get special government permission to go and, like, view the brain, and you can see pictures of it online. It doesn't like. I think our brain has a little bit more lobage to it to register as a brain a bit more. I think a real human brain emulsified in a mason jar kind of just looks like gefilte fish. But, yeah, strange, strange. I feel like I've gone down all kinds of crazy research rabbit holes, But I had to go see the brain. I mean, as soon as I read Candice's book, I always imagined that it would start in 1969, both as a way of disarming people who might click on a period show or read a period script and just kind of assume it's going to be kind of, like, dusty and anachronistic and. And not necessarily modern. Like, I loved the idea of starting with a 1960s song in the case of what's in the show, Sly and the Family Stone. And basically, the most. I tried to find the most unexpected way possible to start the show in.

[A]

My notes that I took. The very first note is, we're starting with Sly and the Family Stone. And question mark, question mark. I was excited and intrigued, and I think it was a really good. Again, grabbing the lapels, a really good sort of happening. Why are we in the 60s sort of moment.

[C]

Yeah. And the sort of, like, thesis statement for the show being like, who the fuck is Charles Guiteau? Who the fuck is James Garfield? Like, who are these people? Most people on the street today would not be able to tell you a single thing about either of these two men. But again, what drives their entire parallel journey is that is the hope that people in our current era or in 1969 or in any future generation might remember either one of them. So all that's left of Guiteau, perversely, is his brain in the mason jar. And as I later found, going to that facility, all of his remains in a filing cabinet, like a sort of Indiana Jones file, just, like, laid out, perversely. You can see pictures of it online. The strangest detail is that if you pull the filing cabinet just underneath him. It's the remains of Ham, the space chimp. So a strangely befitting and for Giteau, alphabetical.

[A]

Alphabetical order.

[C]

I haven't even thought of that. But I guess G U H A. That makes sense, I guess, that Guiteau would essentially be interred beside a chimpanzee. Whereas Garfield, for those folks who live in Ohio or whatever, be interested in doing a sort of Garfield assassination vacation tour, Garfield is the only president who is not interred or buried or cremated. His coffin is on a pedestal next to his wife's coffin in his family crypt at Lakeview Cemetery in Cleveland, Ohio. And I got to go and pay homage. And it was an incredibly moving experience. And just like that parallel or sort of that contrast between where Guiteau lives and where Garfield lives feels pretty stark to me.

[A]

Yeah, that's a great point. Thank you so much for the chat. Thank you for this great show. And I'm sure this has been such a success on Netflix that definitely way more people know who Garfield was or a bit more about who Garfield was. Not to mention Conkling and the rest of these characters, Chestere, Arthur and and for better or worse, knew who Guiteau is. So great work. Sort of, you know, contradicting the thesis of your own show to a certain degree. So, yeah, amazing stuff.

[C]

Well, thank you so much. I really, really appreciate you taking the time.

[A]

It's a little. Absolutely. All right. Thank you so much to Mike for joining us. I just really loved this show and I love talking to him about it. We will be back later this week. We've got the Beast in Me, another Netflix show that we're. That Rob Mahoney and I are gonna be talking about a little bit later this week. And then we'll be back on Friday with another episode about Pluripus, our ongoing coverage of that. Thank you so much to Ashley Smith for stepping in and producing this episode. Thank you to Justin Sales for making everything happen. And thank you again one last time to Mike Makowski for joining us on the show. We'll see you soon.

[C]

By.

[D]

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