‘Furious’ Episodes 1-4 Recap

Summary

The Prestige TV Podcast: ‘Furious’ Episodes 1-4 Recap

Hosts: Jordan Robinson & Yasi Salak
Date: August 5, 2026
Covered: Hulu’s ‘Furious’, Episodes 1–4

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Episode Overview

Jordan Robinson and Yasi Salak deliver a deep-dive, spoilery recap of Hulu’s new hit drama ‘Furious’ (Episodes 1–4: "Flash Flood"), exploring its unconventional tone, layered performances, bold music choices, and thematic subversions of crime and trauma dramas. The hosts discuss how the show interrogates moral ambiguity, complicity, women’s trauma, and societal expectations, all while highlighting the standout cast and the show’s distinctive style.

Spoiler Warning: This podcast covers all major developments through episode 4 of ‘Furious’.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. First Impressions & How the Show Found Its Audience

• Both hosts reveal they were tipped off to the show due to fan emails and personal recommendations.

• Yasi Salak notes being a pre-existing fan of lead actor Lola Petticrew and became invested before the series premiere due to behind-the-scenes social media posts.
  [03:40]

  “I was like, whatever it is, I’m gonna watch it. Cause she’s so incredible of an actress.” – Yasi

• Jordan Robinson shares they started the show after persistent viewer requests and a recommender text from Chris Ryan.
  [03:02]

  “We got a ton of emails from listeners and a ton of comments about covering it. … And that is what happened with Furious.” – Jordan

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2. The Show’s Tonal and Stylistic Approach

• Both hosts praise the offbeat, nuanced juxtaposition of heavy subject matter (trauma, abuse) with quirky, even sometimes humorous touches, citing creator Liz Meriwether’s influence (“New Girl”).

• On Depiction of Trauma:
  [06:18]

  “Tonally…it’s not what you might expect for a show that's dealing with abuse. … You know that it's not just one note … there's a million emotions around it.” – Yasi

• On Score and Music:
  [05:26]

  “There's this sort of panting breath sound and the bass … it's both slightly sexual but also kind of panicky, which is a perfect sort of brew for what we're watching here.” – Jordan
  [07:09]

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3. Use of Music & Needle Drops

• The music is highlighted as "distinctive" and "intentional," with both score and song choices enhancing character and tone.
• Memorable music moments:
  • Rob Delaney’s character puts on a Geese song, signaling his “NPR cool guy” status.
    [11:20]

    “It's like the kind of thing a guy who like thinks he's cooler than he is … would put on.” – Yasi

  • On-the-nose needle drops (E.g., “Don’t Let Me Be Misunderstood” and Cass Elliot’s “It’s Getting Better” used to comment ironically on character situations).
    [12:26]

    “When the Cass Elliot song drops, ... Jake Lacy’s character and Scoot McNairy's character, and like, good to be working together again, you know, when it's clearly it's not good to be working together again.” – Yasi

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4. Subversion of Crime and Trauma Tropes

• The podcast highlights how ‘Furious’ deliberately undermines "perfect victim" and "good cop" archetypes. [14:34]

  “It's almost like the show dares to ask the question, what if women are also people?” – Yasi

• Complex female characters are praised, especially the ambiguity and moral greyness of Lola Petticrew’s Catherine and her capacity for both survival and ruthless violence.

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5. Character Dynamics and Standout Performances

Catherine Grace (Lola Petticrew)

• Described as a master manipulator, deeply traumatized, and perpetually adolescent due to arrested development.
• [19:19]

  “She does the smallest things with her face … she's looking at one of the male characters that she's manipulating … and the minute they turn away and her face completely shifts.” – Yasi

Alice (Emmy Rossum)

• Praised for her nuanced performance; initial doubts about “bad acting” resolve into appreciation of the character’s “posturing” and internal complexities. [08:14]

  “And then when you peel back the layers … you realize that she herself is posturing.” – Jordan

Other Characters

• Nora: Her moral compromise and betrayal of Alice is identified as more hurtful than the “villainous” men.
• Men: Cast subversively (Jake Lacy, Rob Delaney, Campbell Scott)—actors previously associated with “good guy” roles now embodying abusers or enablers, echoing “Promising Young Woman” casting logic.

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6. Thematic Depth: Morality, Complicity, and the “Perfect Victim”

• The show interrogates what viewers expect from “victims” and “avengers”—drawing lines between deserving and undeserving violence.

• Explores the breadth of women's complicity, survival strategies, and how trauma can both wound and, in certain contexts, create monsters. [31:26]

  “How big is the spectrum of badness, and who deserves what?” – Yasi

• Questions about Catherine’s morality (“do you think you’re a good person?”) and the fuzzy line of her violence—especially when her victims include not just abusers but complicit or vulnerable women.

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7. Satire and Social Critique

• The show’s portrayal of polished, “liberal” abusers (the Easton family, wealthy donors, etc.) is seen as savvy commentary on class, gender, and social veneer.
  [24:20]

  “Sideways glances at the Epstein of it all ... these pillars of Mamdani’s New York society, but their hands are just as dirty.” – Yasi

• Raises issues of societal expectations of women, microaggressions, fetishization, and “allyship”—especially via dating scenes and workplace interactions. [35:31]

  “How many times have you been told you’re just lucky, you don’t belong here?” – Yasi

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8. Procedural DNA vs. Freshness

• ‘Furious’ as an anti-procedural: Not providing “safety” or “tidiness” (“This is not that. It broke containment.” – Jordan, [40:44]) in contrast to Law & Order-type shows.

• Trigger Warning
  [40:52]

  “If you’ve experienced sexual assault or trauma … this show is not easy to watch. … You’re going to have to think about stuff that maybe you wouldn’t have to think about when you’re watching another show that deals with it, because it confronts you with that stuff...” – Yasi

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9. Where Is the Story Going? (Speculation and Moral Uncertainty)

• Speculation around Jane Doe, the pregnancy, the true depth of the Easton family’s crimes, and whether the “twist” will be about Hope Davis’s character or stick with the expected patriarchy villains. [55:44]

  “How interested are you … in some sort of, like, twist to come out involving the Jay Easton of it all?” – Yasi

• Ongoing debate: Should Catherine survive? Be institutionalized? Is redemption or justice even possible for her?
  [54:10]

  “This character’s dead already. … Her soul is corroded, her spirit is broken. … The best I can hope for is she goes to an institution and has, like, a nice end of days.” – Yasi

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• [13:36]

  “What if women are also people who are flawed and fucked up and have their own agendas and are afraid of consequences and do not always act purely and for the most moral reasons?” – Yasi

• [20:07]

  “[Blanchard]—Bisexual tin fish loving, drinking cloudy organic wine, like, absolute douchebag. I know this guy perfectly.” – Jordan

• [26:38]

  “It’s truly one of the things that makes my blood boil the most where it’s like, I understand because I have a daughter … So if you don’t have daughters, that’s fine. You should be—kill them, that’s okay. But now I understand. Now that I made one.” – Yasi (on the “girl dad” trope)

• [39:14]

  “You know what show it kind of reminded me a little of? I May Destroy You. That was maybe the first time I saw that show. Speaking of absolutely destroyed me.” – Yasi

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Timestamps for Major Segments

• Introduction, Spoiler Warning: [02:04]
• Show Discovery & Cast Shout-out: [03:02]–[04:27]
• Music & Score Chat: [05:10]–[07:09]
• Performances and Character Layers: [08:14]–[11:07]
• Needle Drops & Music Supervision Details: [11:07]–[12:59]
• Female Complicity & Moral Ambiguity: [13:34]–[16:25]
• Premise of the Show: [16:30]–[17:32]
• Catherine & Alice as Dual Protagonists: [19:19]–[21:53]
• Microaggressions and Workplace Sexism: [35:31]–[36:26]
• Procedural Satire and Emotional Impact: [39:14]–[41:44]
• Speculation about Villains and Endgame: [48:52]–[54:56]

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Takeaways for New and Prospective Viewers

• ‘Furious’ is not your typical cop-vs-killer drama—it’s a sophisticated, emotionally charged, often blackly comic exploration of power, complicity, trauma, and the “messiness” of survival.
• The show shines through character nuance, satirical social critique, and immersive, intentioned style (both visually and sonically).
• It reckons directly with the idea that “hurt people hurt people,” but resists pat answers and “clean” procedural comfort.
• Viewers are challenged to interrogate their own moral boundaries and preconceptions about victimhood, vengeance, and justice.

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Want to share your take or demand coverage of your next obsession?
Email: prestigetvotify.com

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Next week: Coverage continues with Episode 5 (and maybe—just maybe—Rob Mahoney returns!)

Transcript

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[Yasi Salak]

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[Jordan Robinson]

We love reading your emails about various shows we cover, but we thought we might make this all a little bit more personal with our first ever Prestige TV live recording. We'll be at the Televerse Festival here in Los Angeles on Friday, August 14th. Tickets are on sale now at televerse.com and we hope to see you there. So that's August 14th. You do need a pass to the festival to to come see us, but Rob and I will be talking television. Our first ever live recording.

[Yasi Salak]

Come join us.

[Jordan Robinson]

We'd love to see you. Hello, welcome back to the Prestige TV Podcast feed. I'm Jordan Robinson.

[Yasi Salak]

I'm Yasi Salak.

[Jordan Robinson]

We are here to talk about episodes one through four of the Hulu Show Furious. So we want to start with a spoiler warning for that. If you have not watched up through episode four, Flash Flood of Furious, go do that and then come back to listen to this podcast. Anything else you want to say?

[Yasi Salak]

I just want to mention one of the lead actresses in this Lola Petty crew who is amazing. We do know that they use they them pronouns. So sorry Lola throughout when we Discuss it. We end up reverting back to she pronouns mostly, I think, because we were just talking about the character. But we just wanted to flag that and give a heads up apology. Lola, we love you. We know that you go by they them. So we apologize if it gets a little cloudy in there when we're discussing Katherine Grace.

[Jordan Robinson]

Your character Rob will be back. And if I know Rob, he will also love this show. So we will probably be covering this week to week. This was sort of a surprise show that came out of nowhere for us. Hulu's like, nuh, we told you. But I was surprised by it. We got a ton of emails from listeners and a ton of comments about covering it. Um, I don't always listen to the watch because I never want to cannibalize Chris and Andy's takes. Uh, but when Chris Ryan texts me, are you watching this show? I will watch it. And that is what happened with Furious. What was your experience coming to this show?

[Yasi Salak]

Well, I'm a major Lola Petticrew fan. Cause I loved her on say Nothing. And then we kind of struck up a friendship not to drop a name directly onto this podcast. I'm so sorry.

[Jordan Robinson]

Mere minutes in.

[Yasi Salak]

Mere minutes in, they're like, bring Rob back. Boo. No, but she's so cool. She's just a cool person who's really into music. So we just bonded on that. So I knew about it primarily because she was posting about, this is coming, this is coming. And I was like, oh, whatever it is, I'm gonna watch it. Cause she's so incredible of an actress. And then Chris Ryan also texted me, are you watching? And I was like, oh, I haven't yet, but it's on my list. And then I did. And.

[Jordan Robinson]

And then you and I had brunch on Sunday. And I was like, come on the podcast. And I was like, and cram four episodes of television.

[Yasi Salak]

Why not say no more, fam. I was like, watch TV during the day on a Monday as my job.

[Jordan Robinson]

Wow.

[Yasi Salak]

Tiny violin.

[Jordan Robinson]

Prestige tvpotify.com is how you can email us about this show. We might come up with like a bespoke email for this show. We'll see. But for right now, prestige tvotify.com that is where you can demand that we watch cover certain shows. And guess what, guys? It worked for this one. We are gonna talk kind of specifically about episode four. But I had texted you this morning. I was like, hey, heads up. I'm gonna ask you about the score of the show. Cause it's rather distinctive, especially in like, the first few episodes and then you were like, oh, cool, cool story. I actually wanna talk about the needle drops.

[Yasi Salak]

So.

[Jordan Robinson]

Well, let's take advantage of having you, Yossi. I will. I said it on your podcast. I'll say it on my podcast. A music expert, host of Bandsplay. And let's. Let's hear from you about the score and the music use on the show. Like, what is your vibe right on the spot?

[Yasi Salak]

Well, the score I found really compelling and cool and it's like obviously a little bit offbeat. Not that the beat is off, but it's a little different. And I was trying to think about why I responded to it so much. And I think it's a more holistic thing of how I'm really obsessed with. I can't wait to talk to you about this. I'm obsessed with how this show, tonally is not what you might expect for a show that's dealing with abuse. Heavy issues, heavy, you know, trauma, violence towards women, sexual abuse towards women. And I loved that because it's a thing that I've thought about for a long time because I, I tend to like, kind of dislike the depictions of. I don't love depictions of abuse against women in general, full stop.

[Jordan Robinson]

But I find them a brave take.

[Yasi Salak]

Often very like after school specially, or very heavy handed or like without nuance or you know what I mean? And so when you see someone, and I'm a huge Liz Meriwether fan, just gotta say upfront like, Liz Meriwether, I love you so much. I hope you make a thousand more television programs. New Girl Forever. I was like, oh, of course. Like a woman with this sensibility made this. And she understands that like even, even if you experience this kind of trauma, which I would say probably like, unfortunately a great deal of women have.

[Jordan Robinson]

Yeah.

[Yasi Salak]

You know that it's not just one note, you know that sometimes you crack a joke about it or some. Like there's a million emotions around it. And I think that to bring back to the score, I think the score gets and doesn't pummel you with sad violins all the time or whatever.

[Jordan Robinson]

Heavy string sort of placement.

[Yasi Salak]

What about you? What did you think about it?

[Jordan Robinson]

I don't know. It's just an interesting sort of vocalization. There's this sort of panting breath sound and the bass and it's just sort of like it's both slightly sexual but then also kind of panicky, which is a perfect sort of brew for what we're watching here. And. And you sort of like at any given moment it's deployed. It can give you a different flavor. It's very, like, adaptable that way. So I don't know. It's just very distinctive. It really got to me and, like, the. The first episode. And I, you know, I. I talked to Chris about this or whatever and Andy about this, actually. But, like, I bumped a little on Emmy Rossum's performance, and it's one of those things where. And then I watched several more episodes, and I realized that the character is posturing in a way that I was just sort of like, totally. I. Rossin for years on Shameless. I'm a big fan of her work, and I was like, wow. She's like. She. You know, her voice is down a couple registers. Why does her hair look like that? Like, what is.

[Yasi Salak]

What is, you know, big, big. Why does her hair look like that? For sure?

[Jordan Robinson]

What is going on? And then it's just sort of like, oh, she's putting on this sort of hard front demeanor, and she's like, no matter what, like a tough person. You know what I mean? In a way that I like. But, like, I was just sort of like. It felt like slightly bad acting from an actor that I think is fantastic. And then when you peel back the layers a bit more and you realize that she herself is posturing. And then I was just like, wow, I really love this performance so much.

[Yasi Salak]

I feel like they did, like, kind of. I don't know if they did it on purpose, but, like, a bit of, like, a funny bait and switch with the beginning of the first episode. Cause I felt a little bit the same way about just the cop stuff in general. I was like, okay, we're, like, laying it all a little thick, like, Scoot McNairy's character, who's amazing. I love Scooter, but, like, the first time kind of you see him, and he's like, don't you miss this? The smell of a dead body in a hallway? And I was like. But then I was like, oh, like, they tricked us into being like, this is just one of those boilerplate, like. And then you realize it's not that at all. And it's so cool when you start to realize, oh, this is, like, so much more than what is on the surface.

[Jordan Robinson]

I'm also slightly. I love this show. I love this show. I am slightly confused by Scoot's accent because he's. I think he's giving, like, Boston Cop a bit, but. But, like.

[Yasi Salak]

But maybe he transferred, but they, like, all grew up. Not Lenny Briscoe, is it? Lenny Briscoe. Who.

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Who's.

[Yasi Salak]

No, it's. I'm going to svu. Who is the svu?

[Jordan Robinson]

I don't watch svu.

[Yasi Salak]

Excuse me. I know, I know. It's okay.

[Jordan Robinson]

We can still be friends.

[Yasi Salak]

Okay. And also, Lenny Briscoe is from regular Law and Order, Richard Belzer's character, who is like famously on Homicide, which is that not a Boston. Could be. Okay, I'm fired already from the TV for.

[Jordan Robinson]

No, no, no. I'm exposing that. I don't watch police procedures.

[Yasi Salak]

I'm just saying, you know, sometimes you get, you. You put in for a transfer.

[Jordan Robinson]

That's tr. On the. On the other side, you know, Lola Pettigrew, who is someone, you know, an actor. I really admire Robin. I covered say Nothing. We loved her in that show so much. She's incredible. She's Irish, she's doing an American accent. It doesn't bother me. Like, you know, it's like slightly funky. And it doesn't bother me because her whole thing is a performance. And so that all works for me. I think this sort of. And I do want to come back to the music, but I think this two hander of. We're with a cop, we're with a serial killer. Very, very Killing Eve. Like, what Lola's doing in this reminds me a lot of what Jodie Comer did in season one of Killing Eve, which was just like an incredible calling card for an actor and I just loved it. So this sort of like, we're with two sides or. I don't know if you ever watched the Gillian Anderson show the Fall. Like, we're just sort of like in with Jamie Dornan, serial killer and Gillian Anderson, Cops. So the show is split across these two perspectives and in a way that I just like, I really enjoy and I just, I don't know, I'm just so excited to talk about this show. Tell me, tell me more about the meme.

[Yasi Salak]

Oh, it was just a couple of needle drops that I like, I totally noticed. I noticed Chris obviously would notice it too, because when I listened, he pointed out too but like the Rob Delaney character. That's episode one, right? Where she makes her way to first meets him.

[Jordan Robinson]

Yeah.

[Yasi Salak]

And he's like, Mr. Like, you know, blown coke and like I'm a lawyer and he puts on a geese song. And I was like, oh, that's so funny because that's not just like incidental. Like, he totally is like. It's like the kind of thing a guy who like thinks he's cooler than he is and Thus has access to like the most low hanging fruit of what is like cool music. Because it's like risen to the top of like NPR and Pitchfork or whatever would put on. And I like, I was like, oh, there's a ball knower in this writer's room or this music supervision room.

[Jordan Robinson]

It's also really interesting because, like, I'm just a boy whose intentions are good. Oh, Lord, please don't let me be misunderstood. Like, that lyric is on the nose in that episode. Or like, have you seen her? Tell me, have you seen her in episode four? But these are just like killer songs and it fits the mood perfectly and is really good.

[Yasi Salak]

Anyway, there was like another. There's a Fontaine's DC song, also Boys in the Betterland. I wanna say maybe it's at the cop bar that comes on.

[Jordan Robinson]

Okay.

[Yasi Salak]

And then the. To your point about on the Nose, when the Cass Elliot song drops, like, it's getting better after. Like, they're like, oh, it's so good. Like, it's Jake Lacey's character and Scooby McNairy's character. And like, good to be working together again. You know, when it's like, clearly it's not good to be working together again. I like that the music is. Yeah, I think music supervision is endlessly fascinating to me. And obviously there's so many ways you can deploy songs. It can just be for emotional purposes. It can just be like, oh, I love that song. But I feel like this was like, really intentional in a way that I enjoyed.

[Jordan Robinson]

A lot of people are watching this show and a lot of people are really excited about this show. And I've been encountering some people who are like, am I supposed to like Lola's character? Katherine Grace, not Alice, though maybe some people are asking that question. And I actually frankly don't care if people like female characters. I think that is just a really worn out question to ask personally. But my temptation is to just always be on the side of women who kill. That's just something about me. And so when she's killing these guys, I'm like, I'm sure there's a reason and I want it.

[Yasi Salak]

She was not a good reason. I don't know about it.

[Jordan Robinson]

But what the show is doing with her, where are her boundaries? So this is a question, a question that Chris posed to me about Scoot McNary's character, Danny Kelly, the most Irish cop character name of all time. You know, he was like. He was like, this is a guy so good that I'm worried he won't Survive the season. That's what Chris said to me. And it made me very anxious. But I also have this other fear of this is a guy so good, I'm worried he's gonna disappoint me. And that's like. That's an energy I bring in. In episode four, we have the character of Nora, who is, like, presented as, like, troubled and, you know, loves to drink. Like, from episode one is like, I'm drunk. Like, all this sort of stuff like that. I'm obsessed with her, but, like, I also am obsessed with her, but disappoints me in this episode four because, like, her name is on a cold case, and she takes Alice off the case, you know?

[Yasi Salak]

I love all this, though, because it's like. It's almost like the show dares to ask the question, what if women are also people?

[Jordan Robinson]

Right?

[Yasi Salak]

What if women are also just people who are flawed and fucked up and have their own agendas and are afraid of consequences and do not always act purely and for the most moral reasons? And that's, like, kind of a through line of the show for everything. It's around Catherine, it's around Nora. It's maybe, probably, hopefully, gonna be presented with Alice. Like, every character so far, it's like, yeah, no one's hands are clean.

[Jordan Robinson]

I think that's true. I think it's interesting when they're like, Nora is behaving a way. Like, I don't need her hands to be clean. But she disappoints me in that she sort of betrays Alice at the end of this episode. Do you know what I mean? And that disappoints me. I'm not, like, out on the character at all. I'm just sort of like, oh. I'm just saying that that's a tension. Like, it's not. I'm worried about who Catherine's gonna kill next. Cause I'm just like, it's gonna be a guy who abused young women. Like, that's okay. Or helped facilitate the abuse of young women. You know, like Campbell Scott. I'm so excited.

[Yasi Salak]

I was like, I heard. I was like, that's my dog. Look at him. Single.

[Jordan Robinson]

Scott's here. But I'm just like, if he doesn't

[Yasi Salak]

make it, fine with me, I don't care if he does.

[Jordan Robinson]

He deserves it. Whatever's coming to him, I'm pretty sure he deserves it. But to have Nora disappoint me almost hurts more than anything else. To have Marshall's mom turn on Alice. To your point, these women inside of Here. And the young woman we meet in the first episode when they're in the hospital room and they're looking at this. This young woman who they were gonna have testify. Nora's like, oh, she was a trafficker. She was a trafficker. Yeah, she's a trafficker. So, like, the. The. The way in which women are involved across the board in these abuses, as well as all the horrible men that we meet on the show, for sure. Yeah.

[Yasi Salak]

I guess maybe for people that don't know anything about the show, should we tell them, like, sort of like the top line of what it's about?

[Jordan Robinson]

I guess I should. At the top of the episode, I just sort of assume that if you're here to talk about, to. To listen to a podcast about Furious, then. But if you want to. Do you want to give the big.

[Yasi Salak]

Broadly right, It's a cop. A cop on one hand, a cop who has left the force due to an unfortunate circumstance with her other cop boyfriend, who beat the shit out of her when she did not even. She didn't lodge even a formal complaint. She simply mentioned it.

[Jordan Robinson]

I love that you say unfortunate circumstances. Beat the shit out of her.

[Yasi Salak]

Beat the shit out of her. And so she was like, okay, I'm gonna become like a baby FBI. And then sort of, through some circumstances, her desire is to be in sex crimes, through some circumstances, gets involved in the case of these two murders that she is able to link. And the murders we are seeing are perpetrated by Lola Pettigrew's character, who's. I guess we don't really know at the first. Yeah. And that's like, then. Then we're all in.

[Jordan Robinson]

You nailed it.

[Yasi Salak]

Thank you so much. I feel like I probably missed some extremely important points, but. No, that's good.

[Jordan Robinson]

Yeah. I just think that, like, the. I think the points of tension are really interesting to me.

[Yasi Salak]

Cause it's not.

[Jordan Robinson]

The murder is like, is Catherine. Is Catherine going to hurt the daughter of, you know, this guy who she has decided deserves to die? But. But what does the daughter know? Does she know too much? Like, where is her morality there? Is that woman in danger? Is the guy that she's taking care of, this character, Alden, is he in danger? Because, like, I love him. Yeah. Steve, way really, really fun, but, like, is he in danger? Like, should I be scared for him? Or, like, inside of this episode when he says, I want to be your boyfriend, and she's like, I can feel my fingertips again. Like, she has a, like, seemingly genuine positive. I am. I'm. I guess Pushing through some of the physical traumatic response that I've had to what has happened to me in this moment.

[Yasi Salak]

See, I wanted to ask you that. I. And maybe I misunderstood it. I thought she couldn't feel her fingers because they, like, burned off her, like, fingerprints or something. I think it's a. Oh, it's a traumatic response.

[Jordan Robinson]

I think so. I think it goes back to in that first episode when she's in sort of like the corner group, the abuse shelter, and she's talking to the young woman, and she's like, you can just pretend it didn't happen to you, that he didn't exist, that your body doesn't exist. It's like this disassociating, the same thing

[Yasi Salak]

that she kind of coaches Rob Delaney's character through. She's like, I just look at my legs and say, those aren't my legs.

[Jordan Robinson]

That was my expectation. And so, like, in feeling her fingertips again, it's just sort of like she's not undone the trauma, but just sort of, like, pushed through to the other side of this. Of this trauma response that she had was my take on it.

[Yasi Salak]

Yeah, I'm just. I'm so blown away by her performance. I mean, again, I know I'm a little biased, but, like, I just feel like she does the smallest things with her face where you see, like, that she. It's part of the reason that I think you're right to be a little fearful for Alden, because she's, like a master manipulator. That's what she's had to become to survive. And you see it like she's looking at one of the male characters that she's manipulating, and her face is one way. And then the minute they turn away and her face completely shifts.

[Jordan Robinson]

Oh, yeah.

[Yasi Salak]

Like, completely goes into this other face, you know, and you're like, wow, like, you're really turning it on, turning it off. Like, moving through the world in order to, like, survive.

[Jordan Robinson]

When she's on the date in episode

[Yasi Salak]

four with Blanchard, with Tin Fish guy. Sorry, I'm just really into tinfish. I was like, perfect.

[Jordan Robinson]

This, like, talking about Mom Donnie's free bus plan. Bisexual tin fish loving, drinking cloudy organic wine. Like, absolute douchebag. I know this guy perfectly.

[Yasi Salak]

Very familiar.

[Jordan Robinson]

The look on her face, to your point of, like, not just when he looks away, but just sort of like, she has this way of smile, a smile that's a grimace that is, like, so funny and so perfect. She also has, you know, to go back to sort of the Liz Meriwether as creator, new girl of it all, she has this sort of, like, almost whimsic, quirkalicious, like, manic pixie, dream girl energy to her that is, like, fun and funny and terrifying. When the guy's dying. Caleb Eason is dying in the first episode, and she's on the stairs with him and he's, like, about to die. And she's like, I don't like the sound of your voice. I don't like listening to you, but I do love your smile. It's like, you know, and she does this, like, little, almost like Alexis Rose from Schitt's Creek, like, little, like, boop face to him, you know, it's just like. It's scary and funny and genius. And the way in which she is in this state of arrested development, but to your point, a master manipulator. And the way in which, I mean, the show is not making it unsubtle. The way in which Alice and Catherine are in a very. We're not so different, you and I, space. The way that Alice can, in any interrogation, tell a lie to get what she needs out of the person that she's interrogating. And everyone notices it. Even, like, you didn't grow up in a foster home. Even, like, Frank Choi, the FBI agent who does not like her, played by Rob Yang, who I love from Succession. He's so funny.

[Yasi Salak]

He's amazing. I have some notes on him.

[Jordan Robinson]

But, like, for him to be like, you know, she. I really. She pisses me off. But she's really good, you know, and she just, like, she can play the roles that she needs to play to get what she needs. And it is exactly what Katherine is doing, only with more murder.

[Yasi Salak]

Just a little more murder. Just a touch more murder. Yeah, Well, I think it's like, that's so brilliant because it, for me, it's like, ties back into, like. And maybe not hashtag notallwomen will relate, but, like, I think that's like a core, like, thing about being a woman in the world. If you wanna succeed slash survive. Unfortunately, that's part of the game, you know, and some women aren't willing to do it, and my hat is off to them. But, like, the rest of us, like, that's how you get through. That's how you get by. That's how you get ahead, you know, because the other doors are not open. And if you don't learn that, you know. And I have not really seen a show or. I'm sure I have, but, like, I can't remember the Last time I've seen. Because it's a negative quality. Right, Right. You're supposed to judge it and you're like, oh, But I also think that

[Jordan Robinson]

to add to that, you have in this episode, episode four, you have Hal is Campbell Scott's character. His son is Blanchard.

[Yasi Salak]

Blanchard Jones.

[Jordan Robinson]

Just like the name is amazing.

[Yasi Salak]

So perfect.

[Jordan Robinson]

And then his wife is played by Janelle Maloney from West Wing, et cetera. But like a perfect.

[Yasi Salak]

And leftovers.

[Jordan Robinson]

Yes, and leftovers. More importantly, a perfect, perfect, sort of like WASP y performance. Similarly, you cast Hope Davis as like the iconic WASP sort of situation. Like we're just missing Laura Linney, honestly, for like the trifecta, the holy WASP trinity here. But like the way in which Jennel Maloney's character, whose name I don't have in front of me, but like the way in which they're too liberal and too polite to like kick her out of their house is so funny to me. But then of course, like, you know, when we find out that Hal is part of this family, you know, that they are somehow deeply entrenched in this horrible web of sex trafficking and abuse, but there is this sort of pretense of liberal niceness that is part of this family, is part of this like New York liberal fakeness that's in here. I love it.

[Yasi Salak]

It's really. I mean, I know it's like not, not like, you know, reinventing the wheel or it's. It's not like not a little bit obvious. But I do think it's genius how it's like really up with the times. Like these sort of like sideways glances at the Epstein of it all, you know, like, like and. And a liberal, you know, like the idea that like there are these like pillars of Mamdani's New York society, but their hands are just as dirty. They're in the picture. They have a 15 year old in their lap. You know, is like the way in

[Jordan Robinson]

the interrogation scene when Hope Davis character, Emma. Emma Easton, when she's like, you know, we're doing a charity to raise awareness for my father's cancer and Alice is like, oh, that's amazing. That's just amazing, you know, or watching the video that she watches of, you know, this other charity event that they've done and earlier in the season and watching like Jay Easton, like sort of hand this award off to these young girls and Alice can just clock what is off and what is wrong.

[Yasi Salak]

Their body language is slightly off. Yeah.

[Jordan Robinson]

I want to talk to you about the casting of the men in this show because we were talking a little bit before we started recording about Jake Lacey, who plays Marshall, Alice's exact ex. Ex boyfriend. They were childhood sweethearts. He beat the out of her. She has is now forced to work with him. You know, Chris was saying, like, oh, it's such counter casting to have Jake Lacy show up this, like, good guy. And it was. We were talking before we started recording about how this is, like a micro generational reaction to Jake Lacy, who did play the, like, the consummate good guy for a long time in Hollywood, and then he did White Lotus. And ever since he did White Lotus, he has actually, like, played the most raging douchebags and scary assholes. And so I think for a lot of people, they're like, oh, Jake Lacey's here. He just is a jerk. And for other people who saw High Fidelity or Obvious Child or all these other things that Jake Lacey did before, it's almost like the casting that Emerald Fennell did in Promising Young Woman, where she got all these nice guys to play these abusers. But I do think she's doing that. Liz Merriweather is doing that elsewhere. When you have Rob Delaney.

[Yasi Salak]

Totally. The Internet's boyfriend. The Internet's best boyfriend. Funniest guy in the world.

[Jordan Robinson]

Love Rob Delaney.

[Yasi Salak]

Love him.

[Jordan Robinson]

Campbell Scott is here.

[Yasi Salak]

I love Campbell Scott.

[Jordan Robinson]

Campbell Scott. But I know that I'm gonna find out that he has been up to some scary, skanky shit. And so it's just like, that kind of. I don't know that I would put Jake in that bucket, but maybe. But I would definitely put. When Rob Delaney showed up, I was like, this is just a perfect use of Rob Delaney.

[Yasi Salak]

Yeah, it was wonderful. And also giving him a daughter, because it's truly one of my.

[Jordan Robinson]

It's a girl, dad.

[Yasi Salak]

One of the things that makes my blood boil the most where it's like, I understand because I have a daughter. And I was like, okay, so it took you bearing child to understand the humanity of women as a father of daughters, you know, and so if you don't have daughters, that's fine. You should be. And kill them. That's okay. But now I understand. Now that I made one.

[Jordan Robinson]

I get it. And this is also maybe like a very specific House of Auror thing. But the actor who's playing Jay Easton, who seems like the biggest bad of them all, played Father Lantom on Daredevil, who's just sort of like this kindly priest figure, you know what I mean? Who, like, I don't know how many furious Watchers also watched all of Daredevil on Netflix, but like I did. And so he's been in a lot of other things. But like that's another guy where I was just sort of like, I'm used to feeling very warmly towards him and I'm just like, whatever you did, sir, I am horrified to find out about it.

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[Yasi Salak]

I'm so obsessed with this show and what it's doing with the trope of the perfect victim.

[Jordan Robinson]

Tell me. You know.

[Yasi Salak]

Well, because I think that's a thing, right? Like, it's like you want a victim to be perfect. You want them to not have done anything bad or do anything bad because then you can morally justify anything they do do. But one thing I wanted to ask you about, it's like so far so good, right? Except that she clearly murdered the woman that ran the shelter, that she blackmailed and coerced into helping her procure drugs and wigs and cleaning products. And that woman, you know, I don't know if she did deserve it. I mean, it's a gray area because she seduced her and she was in a position of power. So like you. But it's like, oh, like, what about that one? You know, she still is.

[Jordan Robinson]

Like when she's asked the question, she's like, do you think you're a good person you know what I mean? I do. I mean, that's the thing is like, where is her line? It's unclear. You know what I mean? And it's just sort of like. I think for a lot of people who are not me watching at home, they're like, hey, she shouldn't kill anyone. And I'm like, she should kill all those dudes. That's how I feel about it.

[Yasi Salak]

Certainly the first one, she should have disemboweled him.

[Jordan Robinson]

But I think that, like, that woman who worked at the shelter, I think that's an interesting question to the earlier conversation of like, you know, can women be shitty too on this show? Absolutely. Marshall's mom, again, like, pouring honey and then just sort of like turning on her. Terrifying and all the rest. Yeah. This woman. I mean, let's hope that this is the first person that she ever had sex with at the shelter. But like, these are abused, scared women. And yes, Catherine Grace did like, seduce her.

[Yasi Salak]

Yeah.

[Jordan Robinson]

Like, put the moves on her. But like, one should, you know, I don't think she should have died, but like.

[Yasi Salak]

Yeah, so.

[Jordan Robinson]

But that is like a. That's a serious fucked up thing to do.

[Yasi Salak]

That's again, why I think it's great. Right. Like, also, that victim's not perfect. It's just like this continuous thing of like, what's. Where does your responsibility lie? How big is the spectrum of badness, you know, and who deserves what. And back to Nora's character, who, like, even though of course that was disappointing. Cause you're like, oh, you're impeding, you

[Jordan Robinson]

know, but you're punishing Alice. You're making al. Here's the thing. My read of this, it's just the end of the episode. We don't know what's gonna happen in the next episode. I don't imagine that Alice is just off the case for the season. There's like another half of the season. But like, for her to say to. To make Alice feel like it's her fault.

[Yasi Salak]

Right.

[Jordan Robinson]

You know, but she's pushed up against the wall.

[Sponsor Announcer 1]

Right.

[Yasi Salak]

Like, I think they did a really good job of. For me anyways. I was like, oh, this shitty male boss again. There's always like another layer. This shitty male boss who was awful to her. Yeah. And who. I mean. Oh, she's a drunk. I would be too, if I had to look at child porn all day, babe. I would be at the office all day just to get through. And this man basically threatened her.

[Jordan Robinson]

Oh, he definitely did.

[Yasi Salak]

He threatened. And it's like, so she's like, she's like, do I lose my career?

[Jordan Robinson]

No, I mean, I.

[Yasi Salak]

Or do I, like, act on the fly again? Like, what do I do to, like, survive?

[Jordan Robinson]

I understand why she did what she did. I'm just saying, like, I. I would hope that instead of making this young woman who is, like, under her, like, tutelage feel like she fudged up by defending herself against her shitty, abusive boyfriend, she. She gaslights her into, like, saying, you fucked up. Now, I understand to your point. I understand why she did it. Like, because she was threatened, and she's terrified to see her name on this case. And is this gonna come back to bite her? And is it gonna bite her boss? Well, then, like, you know, destroy her, Expose her alcoholism. I just, like. I was just like, oh, man, I just really wish you two were in it together. And I mean, like, from the very beginning, Nora has been, you know, teaching Alice, but also derisive towards Alice. And that's great. That's, you know, it's a complicated character. That's great. This was just the moment where I was just sort of like, you're gaslighting this woman who, like, every shitty guy around her, except for Perfect angel baby scoot McNary. I'm so scared. But, like, every single guy around her has made her feel this way, and now you're just hopping on over to the patriarchy side to make her feel that way as well.

[Yasi Salak]

And again, I think it's cool.

[Jordan Robinson]

No, I mean, it is. It's. It's good. I like, it's good storytelling.

[Yasi Salak]

But, yes.

[Jordan Robinson]

And I can be emotionally disappointing the character at the same time. I just.

[Yasi Salak]

I'm like, oh, it's so cool. It's. We've been so easy to make this. Like, that's my mentor. That's my homegirl. You know, she's. She's gonna put me under her wing and take care of me.

[Jordan Robinson]

I don't mean that it needs to be like sunshine and lollipops. I just think there's, like. You're, like. You're always trying to figure out where the line is.

[Yasi Salak]

Yeah.

[Jordan Robinson]

And it's just sort of like there's the. Like in the episode one, Nora telling her, like, oh, were you abused? Poor you. Like, whatever. You're like, oh, that's shitty. But, like, she's tough but fair. And then this just teetered over into tough but unfair in a way that I was just sort of like, oh, I was hoping there was a line here. And she just sort of, like, you know, drunkenly reeled across It.

[Yasi Salak]

But I'm interested to see, like, will she come back from it? Will she, like, make up for it? Yeah, yeah, it's. I guess what I'm saying is just like, I'm. I'm. I love every subverted expectation because I'm not used to it, you know, And I. There was like a couple of things. These are like. I was wondering if you clocked them, because I was just like, yes, I know this thing. Like, when she's. Alice is in, I think, one of the first meetings with Detective Frank Choi, who clearly makes it extremely clear that he hates her and doesn't think she's good enough. And he says to her, you lucked out. You're a baby agent. You really lucked out. And again, the micro acne on her face where it's like, how many times have you been told you're just lucky, you know, like, you don't belong here.

[Jordan Robinson]

You're lucky. Right?

[Yasi Salak]

They earned it. But you're lucky, you know? And it's like feminism. The hat. Pink pussy hat has right on my head. But I'm like, I was These little things that I was just like, oh, I just hope and imagine a bunch of women watching this and being like, I know him. Yeah, I work with that guy. Like, I've seen that guy before. I've seen that look before.

[Jordan Robinson]

The Blanchard date moment when he was like, I love that you're a former sex worker and you advocate for sex work and stuff like that. And then calls her a slut in bed. And he's like, sorry, I can't come unless I say that.

[Yasi Salak]

Like, sorry, respectfully, you know, or like. Or her response, which I love. Again, unexpected. Where you would think she would manipulate it in a different way. But he goes, how did that make you feel? And she goes, really angry. And it's like, oh, you were just honest, you know? And he was like, you know, like, it's just.

[Jordan Robinson]

She's like, ally, what can I say? Any other microaggression moments that you want to call out while you have your pink pussy hat on?

[Yasi Salak]

I don't know if this is a microaggression. This just made me laugh really hard. And I wondered if anyone else. Or if you laughed at it when they're. When Choi and Jake Lacy's character are watching Alice and Irish Danny Kell. I can't remember anyone's names. You know, Talk to Hope Davis.

[Jordan Robinson]

Yeah.

[Yasi Salak]

And he gets her. She gets her to admit something or say something. And Troy goes, ho. Like, he's like so excited. And the look that Jake Lacey gives him. He's like, I just couldn't stop laughing.

[Jordan Robinson]

I was like, that was.

[Yasi Salak]

Cause his reaction was really bizarre. It was to something like, so awful that the woman said. And he was like. And I was like, warrior should not be like, you know, Arsenio hall, hoot, hoot, hoot about this.

[Jordan Robinson]

No, I mean, the show finds ways to engage in. And like the Dropout, which is Liz Meriwether's other show, in addition to Dying for Sex, but about Elizabeth Holmes, that one also found a lot of ways to be, like, quite funny inside of a really, like, upsetting story that it's telling. And so she. The way in which she's been able to take this new girl sensibility and take it into these darker corners of our reality is just completely wild to me. And to go back to Scoot McNary's character, Danny Kelly and Alice, like, they have a will they. Why am I rooting for a will they? Won't they Inside of this horrible sex crime murder show. I know, but I'm like, can these two crazy kids work it out? You know, will they survive this torrential downpour inside of this episode?

[Yasi Salak]

You know, you made me think of another layer that I'm like, ugh, this is so interesting. Like, to the point of, like, is this Alice character likable? Right. She pays. Not pays well, maybe she pays them. I don't know. She meets guys on dating apps and has them come beat her up because she likes that, you know? And like, it's not entirely explained why or if that predates her abuse or if that's a direct result of her abuse, but, like, complicated. And you can God bless Danny Kelly when he. When she tells him, and he's just like, I just want you to be happy.

[Jordan Robinson]

He's like, is that what you need? Is that what you want? Yeah. Like, he could see him being like, I don't think I can do that.

[Yasi Salak]

You know what I mean? I don't understand at all. But he isn't like, are you insane?

[Jordan Robinson]

Yeah, he's not yucking yums.

[Yasi Salak]

You know, he's not yucking yums. And obviously the yum is very complicated. It's like, who? I just. At every. Every turn, I'm like, wow, like, someone really thought about this. Someone is. You know what show? It kind of reminded me a little of I May Destroy youy.

[Jordan Robinson]

Yeah.

[Yasi Salak]

That was maybe the first time I saw that show. Speaking of absolutely destroyed me.

[Jordan Robinson]

Yeah.

[Yasi Salak]

But that was one of the first times I experienced that in a show where I was like, oh, like, this is. This is. Because as much as it's kind of, like, a little hard to watch things like SVU or whatever, it's all very glossy and fake, you know, in a way that I.

[Jordan Robinson]

Well, the. Isn't the idea behind. So I don't watch not fake, but,

[Yasi Salak]

you know, I don't watch Law and Order.

[Jordan Robinson]

It's tidy. Like, the. The reason that a lot of people love procedurals, my understanding is that, like. And especially procedurals like SVU or something like that, where something horrific happens, but it's gonna be resolved within the hour,

[Yasi Salak]

and there's not time to characterize the victim, like, past complicate them.

[Jordan Robinson]

Yeah, it's gonna be resolved. You're gonna watch this horrible thing, a murder or something like that, but then these detectives who you're with are going to solve it in an hour, and you don't even have to remember in order to, like, feel the safety of that at the end of the day. And, you know, similar to, like, a lot of people I love and respect and admire love murder podcasts, it's not for me, but, like, it's something that brings them comfort and safety to hear that sort of, like, what is it? I think this idea of safe, scary, right? Where it's just sort of like you feel you hear something scary, but you feel safe while you're hearing it. And so it just sort of like, makes the scary world that you navigate feel safer. And so.

[Yasi Salak]

And this is not that.

[Jordan Robinson]

This is not that I als. It's broke containment.

[Yasi Salak]

I wish I had said it in the top of the show, but I

[Jordan Robinson]

wish I had recap the show. We have a lot of wishes.

[Yasi Salak]

I. I want to, like, point out that, like, if. If you've experienced sexual assault or trauma or, like, anything in this realm, this show is not easy to watch, you know, like, it. It's enjoyable in so many ways, but it's also, like, the same as to me of I May Destroy youy. It's like, you're gonna have to think about stuff that maybe you wouldn't have to think about when you're watching another show that deals with it, because it confronts you with that stuff by, like, kind of mirroring back, if that makes sense.

[Jordan Robinson]

Absolutely.

[Yasi Salak]

So I do wonder, like, how that is gonna, like. It's a different experience to watch that. And, you know, I don't have statistics in front of me. I don't want to be a Grey's Anatomy episode where they're like, hey, Joanna, did you know that, you know, 72% of women have been assaulted or whatever, but probably 72% of women.

[Jordan Robinson]

Yeah, it's higher than you think. And I think it's. You know, we were talking about this before we started recording this idea of like, yeah, you can watch this show through the lens of I've experienced something similar to this. You can watch this show through the lens of I'm a woman moving through the world. And so there are aspects of this that I'm gonna understand. And then you can watch the show as like, like a man who hasn't experienced any of that. But this is a compelling story that you're watching and there are things that are going to sort of like pass you by as there are anytime you watch a show that is like dealing with hyper specific experiences that are not your own. I, I have that happen to me all the time. But it's still a very compelling. Well done. Not. I don't think it's a subtle show at all. I would not accuse it of being a subtle show, but I. To your. To go back to your Grey's Anatomy comp. I don't feel like I'm being preached to. No. At any point. And being preached to, even if it's about a subject matter you care a lot about, can be so off putting or just like really shut you down. But what this is is compelling, occasionally humorous, sexy, exciting, violent, dangerous, good storytelling.

[Yasi Salak]

Visually amazing. Like some of like, listen, she pulls her. The wigs off. She does and then wears those cool masks like she makes the killing look very sexy.

[Jordan Robinson]

I mean that's. And there are stickers involved as well.

[Yasi Salak]

Because she's. Because she's mentally 15, as you pointed out earlier. Like that's another recurring theme.

[Jordan Robinson]

Right.

[Yasi Salak]

This woman is this arrested development. She's 30, I think. Right? Ostensibly.

[Jordan Robinson]

I think you did the math.

[Yasi Salak]

It was 15 years ago. 14 years. Yeah. She's 29.

[Jordan Robinson]

Right.

[Yasi Salak]

But she's obviously not 29.

[Jordan Robinson]

I just prefer this. This just feels so much more honest to me than like the recent spate of Mommy Murder shows is what I call them, which is just sort of like they're insanely popular. It all echoes off of the Big Little Lies phenomenon, but just sort of this beach read, Mommy Murder, they drop almost weekly on Peacock or Amazon or something like that. And it's like a rich woman whose

[Yasi Salak]

life isn't as good as she thinks it is.

[Jordan Robinson]

Right. There's just like, maybe Jake Lacey has betrayed her in some way. That happened to Shiv from Succession. You know what I mean? This. These shows exist. I think they're really poorly done in terms, for the most part, in terms of how the twists and turns unveil themselves. And for this show, for the question of who did what to whomst not really being the point at all of the show. It's not trying to shock and surprise you when you find out about Isabel and her connection to Catherine. And, you know, as we do in this episode, however, the case continues to reveal itself. That is not the shock. There's no shock value to that in the show. When we meet Jay Easton, we're like, that dude did something horrible. I can just tell.

[Yasi Salak]

Yeah.

[Jordan Robinson]

And Hope Davis knows about it. I'm not surprised. You know what I mean? Like, all of that stuff, I'm just. I'm just not. It's not trying to fool me or surprise me. It's trying to engage me in the real ramifications, the real damage that this does. And then what are the choices you make after that? You know, Nora says something in episode one about, like, basically hurt people. Hurt people, right. Which. Which I know a lot of people who have experienced abuse in their life push back on that because they're like, we fucking hate that idea of hurt people, hurt people. Because then there's like, an assumption that just because you've experienced abuse of whatever stripe at some point in your life, that you are now, like, a dangerous person. But Nora, when she's talking about it, she's like, let's talk about the choices people make at the end of the day around this.

[Pharmaceutical Advertiser]

Yeah.

[Jordan Robinson]

And so I thought it was good because she kind.

[Yasi Salak]

If I remember correctly, she followed up with something like, I know actually, a lot of these terrified girls never murder anyone. And she says. She's like, it's not. And I thought they did a really great job. Like, they drop in that little bit when Alice and dating Kelly go to the foster home. And the woman is like, she was weird. You know, like,

[Jordan Robinson]

there was something there.

[Yasi Salak]

There was already something. Like, she was always a little off. So it's like, okay, not all hurt people turn into avenging murderers like serial killers. But you pair a few things together. Like a girl that's already probably a little mentally unsound and a heap this much abuse and trauma, and you take her best friend away, it's game over, babe.

[Jordan Robinson]

It's tough.

[Yasi Salak]

She's gonna go on a killing spree. She's gonna acquire some Fentanyl, a few not amazing wigs.

[Jordan Robinson]

The shot of when she takes the red wig off the sort of Russian nesting doll wigs, like, you meet her in the blonde wig. And then her commitment to the bit where she has this red wig that she wears when she's like, Ginny, right. And she takes a shower. At one point, the wig, I was like, I'm seeing what's happening. What's happening right now.

[Yasi Salak]

But I guess she couldn't come back and be like, I have a new hair. You know, what else do you want

[Jordan Robinson]

to talk about that we haven't hit?

[Yasi Salak]

I really, really appreciated the daughter aspect, even though I think it could have been cheap and easy. But I thought, like, again, I know it's like, it's not a subtle show, but starting with the, like, my dad won't let me cut my hair because he wants me to have a boyfriend. And then that last scene where she's holding scissors and all her hair's on the floor. And it's. And it's unclear. Did she do that herself because she's been made aware of what a monster her father was. Or did, you know, did Catherine force her? And my arm hair is standing, so I'm like, that was really cool. That's a really. What does it.

[Jordan Robinson]

And I still don't know.

[Yasi Salak]

Again, it's not over explaining. It's not. But it's like doing a glance at is the most important thing in the world. The male gaze is the most important thing in the world to be attractive to men, you know, at 15.

[Jordan Robinson]

Yeah. I just. The way she takes all the time to curl the hair and then it's chopped off. And it's unclear. It is unclear whether or not Catherine did the chopping or this girl did the chopping. But it's the. It's Catherine's sort of, like, intent and impact that. That be the end result. Totally. Let's curl your hair and make it look exactly how your dad wants it to look before it's all gone.

[Yasi Salak]

Before it's all gone. And the sense that you get that when they interrogate her, that she is protecting her. Oh, yeah. That she's protecting Catherine, you know?

[Jordan Robinson]

Absolutely.

[Yasi Salak]

And, like, she's gonna be so traumatized. Cause she's this murderer or whatever. And it's like, actually, like, you're like, no, she.

[Jordan Robinson]

She gave me this photo to give to you.

[Yasi Salak]

Yeah.

[Jordan Robinson]

She's like. And in terms of, like a cat and mouse idea, this idea that, like, Catherine knew this girl would be interrogated, gave her this photo, and said, give it to the cops, and then finds out from Campbell Scott in the elevator that the cops not only have the photo. So that worked. That worked.

[Yasi Salak]

Yeah.

[Jordan Robinson]

But are asking the right questions about it. And she gets this little smile on her face like it's, it's working. Like, I'm going on this killing spree, but I'm also leaving a breadcrumb trail for the cops so that hopefully they will, you know, and that's what, you know, the question is like, are we doing what she wants us to do by like focusing on Jay Easton instead of her? But I'm like, who's the bigger problem? Right? Maybe my morals are fucked up. But I'm just saying I wanted to

[Yasi Salak]

ask you, like, do you. Cause, sorry, I'm. I don't know if you do this on this show or if I'm also very dumb and don't understand things. But like, like, are you speculating based on the pregnancy, based on the Jane Doe that is found that we're meant to understand is her best friend who was pregnant?

[Jordan Robinson]

Isabel.

[Yasi Salak]

Yeah, Isabel. Are we meant to speculate that that was J. Easton's child or a man in power's child and that's why she was murdered? And then that's also why it was buried. Because the implication, which I didn't completely grasp it was that like this case went nowhere because that high up above Nora didn't.

[Jordan Robinson]

Ed George.

[Yasi Salak]

Ed George didn't take it anywhere. And like, why didn't he take it anywhere? Because you can do a DNA test on a fetus.

[Jordan Robinson]

It could be the pregnancy in the baby, or it could just be like inconvenient dead girl.

[Yasi Salak]

Right? Like, we don't have time to solve this Jane Doe. There's a million of them.

[Jordan Robinson]

No, I don't know. I don't know. We don't have time to say. We don't want to connect this Jane Doe to the circumstances of her death, whatever they were.

[Yasi Salak]

Right.

[Jordan Robinson]

Do you know what I mean?

[Yasi Salak]

Right.

[Jordan Robinson]

So it could be either of pregnancy

[Yasi Salak]

threw me off because I was like, oh, who's the father? Oh, yeah. And that will come out, you know, like, you solve this crime and you. They'll be like, who is the father? And like, oh, it's an 85 year old billionaire or whatever, or his son or someone else that should not be the father of a 15 year old's

[Jordan Robinson]

child, which is nobody, Campbell Scott, Rob Delaney, some bad dude.

[Yasi Salak]

Some bad dude.

[Jordan Robinson]

What I think is interesting. So this is based on an 80s film, Black Widow, loosely based. And I was like looking at the plot of that movie and in that movie, the killer, the woman who disguises herself with wigs and accents and all this sort of stuff, to meet and murder rich dudes. She's just doing that to get their money. That's the motivation. And she's being chased by a female cop, but that's her motivation is, I want this money, so I'm going to.

[Yasi Salak]

Right. She's just a straight up, like grifting criminal. Grifting criminal who uses her sexuality in order to interoperate victims.

[Jordan Robinson]

Right. And so the idea of, like, why do women kill? Why do women murder? Like, what is the motivation behind this, Catherine's killing spree and the fact that it is sort of like the rot at the center of society and the way in which women, young women, et cetera, are just. Again, Nora says this in the first episode, like, like, we, whoever the we are, want women to be sort of like raped and killed and go and just be quiet and go away. You know what I mean? And like, that's what a lot of storytelling has been. And it's sort of like, what if they become a Medusa instead? What if they become a Gorgon instead? You know, like, what if there is

[Yasi Salak]

like, I love all the little Greek myth.

[Jordan Robinson]

Oh, yeah. When she's like, I went to a school, very smart. I went to a really good school. So that's why. Yeah, but, yeah, so. So to alter the motivation and give and give this much more interesting and upsetting motivation for this character is one of a million improvements upon the loosely based source material that they made here.

[Yasi Salak]

There is that part where Rob Yang kind of like is like, oh, well, isn't it for the money? Like in the very beginning, you remember that? And she's like, no, he's like really pushing it. He can't understand. Why would. Why would a 15. She's a prostitute. You're like a 15 year old who is sex trafficked is a prostitute.

[Jordan Robinson]

Right.

[Yasi Salak]

I don't know if that's what we would call her.

[Jordan Robinson]

Right, right.

[Yasi Salak]

But it just has no. Cannot differentiate between a victim and, you know, it's like immediately into the criminal bucket.

[Jordan Robinson]

I'm really worried about Alden. I feel very protective of him and I hope he's okay.

[Yasi Salak]

She does seem to genuinely care.

[Jordan Robinson]

No, I think she cares about him. But like, where does the rubber meet the road in terms of, like, if he finds out more than she wants him to know.

[Yasi Salak]

He was poking around a little.

[Jordan Robinson]

He was like, you know, it's the same reason I was worried for Rob Delaney's daughter, where I'm just sort of like. I think her instinct is to not hurt this girl.

[Yasi Salak]

Yeah.

[Jordan Robinson]

But when this girl Is like, hey, what the fuck is going on with all the electronics in the oven? What's happening here? And like, where. Where is that line? And I don't have a grasp of it, to your point about, like, killing the woman who worked in the sort of the women's shelter. You know, that line is really fuzzy to me. And so that puts me, the viewer, on the back foot of just sort of like, what is the choices gonna be made here? I would like to believe that she genuinely cares. I believe she genuinely cares about Alden, but does she care about him more than she cares about her mission to, like, be able to successfully kill all these people?

[Yasi Salak]

Yeah, I'm not sure it's a f. I'm very fascinated to see what happens in general with the character because she's already like, there's been, like, two allusions to the fact that she does not care if she lives or dies. Like. Like, she flat out says it. She flat out says it. Emmy's character, Alice, Alice, says it also. She's like, this is a suicide mission. Like, this is not. This is like she is going towards death. Like, she just wants to do her thing.

[Jordan Robinson]

So here's my question. At the end of the day, again, my morals might be really messed up because I'm just like, kill all the bad men and I'm fine with it. But, like, what do you want from the end of this show, from the end of the season, if this is like more than a season of television? I don't know. But, like, do you want her? Does she get to survive the season? Does she get to get away with what she did? Do you want her in jail? Do you have a sense of, like, where you feel like this character should or where you personally Yassi. Want her to end up?

[Yasi Salak]

This is so dark, but I kind of look at this character and I'm like, this character's dead already. Like, she had no shot. Like, I don't. I'm not sure. I believe that there's some, like, happy ending waiting out there for her if she only can find love or whatever. Like. Like her. Her soul is corroded, her spirit is broken. She is not a functioning person. Like, she's. Her eyes are crazy. Like she's watching these trauma healing youtubes while doing sex work. Like, it's. This is like the best I can hope for is she goes to an institution and has, like a nice end of days.

[Jordan Robinson]

Okay, so that's what you want. I don't know if that's what I want institutionalized.

[Yasi Salak]

I could can you see? That's a cool ending. Like, just, like, sitting with her stickers in the institution, not to be 15 till the day she dies.

[Jordan Robinson]

I find that I don't know. And I think that's a. Again, it's like, that's more interesting to me than the, like, unveiling, unraveling the mystery of the breadcrumbs that leads back to Jay Easton. And, you know, all of that sort of stuff is like, I think you're right. I think it's an interesting question. Like, can she be okay? Does she deserve to be okay? Do I want her to be okay? I find that I am unsure. And that puts me in a really interesting position while I'm watching it, you know?

[Yasi Salak]

Yeah. So I wonder. I guess my last question for you is, like, how. And I guess you kind of just answered it, but, like, how interested are you? Or how much do you want some sort of, like, twist to come out involving the Jay Easton of it all? Like, you know, like, oh, the breadcrumbs lead back and there's some, like, crazy twist that we didn't see coming? Or is that just.

[Jordan Robinson]

Not personally, I wouldn't put it past a show in 2026 to do that, but, yeah, that he. That he's just a nice old man with cancer and he never did anything wrong.

[Yasi Salak]

Hope Davis's character is the Svengali. She's the Heidi Fleiss of the entire organization of teenagers. Like, she didn't flinch.

[Jordan Robinson]

Glenn Maxwell. You know what I mean? Like, that's. That's a char.

[Yasi Salak]

You know, they're basing it on something, you know, she didn't like, as they point out, she didn't flinch. She knew her dad and her. And her.

[Jordan Robinson]

I mean, she's complicit in some. To some degree. To what? To what degree? Who knows? But, like, you know, I think we're supposed to believe the cops when they're like, she definitely knows. You know, that's their read on it. Campbell Scott. How many more episodes does he get to be on this show?

[Yasi Salak]

Does he get to live, given the trend? Yeah, maybe one.

[Jordan Robinson]

Maybe one more.

[Yasi Salak]

Yeah. Like, he's already drugged.

[Jordan Robinson]

Yeah. So he's already got that fentanyl in him.

[Yasi Salak]

He's already got the fentanyl in him. And he's in increasingly in a precarious position because he's in the van. He's in the van outside of Alden's house. Right. So it's like, he's got to be dealt with pretty quickly because he will be discovered by her new boyfriend.

[Jordan Robinson]

Well, that is furious. Up through episode four, Ramahoney will be back and we will do episode five, I Believe, again, unless Rob Mahoney comes back and he's like, I hate the show, but I just don't believe that's gonna be true.

[Yasi Salak]

No, Rob Mahoney is hashtag Ally. You know, he's gonna. He's gonna love it.

[Jordan Robinson]

Presshtvotify.com if you have any thoughts. If you're like, joanna, why are you rooting for murder? Sorry. And you can let me know.

[Yasi Salak]

Joanna, have you murdered anybody?

[Jordan Robinson]

Not yet.

[Yasi Salak]

Great.

[Jordan Robinson]

But I've been thinking about it.

[Yasi Salak]

You have a short list in case things turn for you.

[Jordan Robinson]

Thank you to Kai Grady, thank you to Jacob Cornette, and we'll see you soon. Bye.

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[Yasi Salak]

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