‘Heated Rivalry’ Episode 5: Russian Phone Calls | Prestige TV | The Ringer

Summary

The Prestige TV Podcast

“Heated Rivalry” Episode 5: Russian Phone Calls

Date: December 20, 2025
Hosts: Joanna Robinson & Mallory Rubin

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Overview

This episode dives deep into episode 5 of Heated Rivalry, focusing on the emotional and narrative highs of the season’s penultimate installment. Hosts Joanna Robinson and Mallory Rubin break down key character moments, cultural context, the phenomenon of romance/“horny” TV, and the show’s growing cultural impact, particularly as a Canadian export. They discuss standout performances, the evolution of queer sports narratives, and set the stage for the finale.

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Key Discussion Points and Insights

1. The Phenomenon of Heated Rivalry

• Show’s Impact & Buzz: Both hosts detail how Heated Rivalry has taken over their social feeds and real-life conversations, highlighting its status as a “phenomenon.”
  • “It's just driving conversation in my real life. Like, so many of the people I know, either our colleagues or pals of ours, are like, are you watching Heated Rivalry?” (Mallory, 08:51)
• Genre Boom: The hosts connect the show to larger trends in romance/“horny” television (e.g., The Summer I Turned Pretty, Bridgerton).
• Romantic & Sexy Appeal:
  • The show’s success reflects “people always want this...but TV is just finally brave enough to give it to us.” (Mallory, 12:01)
  • “There's so much misery in the world every day...It feels good to watch people, like, enjoy something that feels good.” (Mallory, 13:33)

2. Romance as a Cultural Antidote

• Yearning & Intimacy: The hosts discuss the appeal of yearning, longing, and genuine connection in a disconnected, post-COVID, digital world.
  • “That tangible expression of desire and then also the humanity of it…You can't do this with an algorithm. You can only do it with another person.” (Joanna, 15:48)
• Emotional Depth:
  • “It's sexy to see people, but, like, it's really sexy if the people who are fucking are embracing the totality of the person in their arms.” (Mallory, 16:18)

3. Trends in TV & Canadian Content

• Cancon (Canadian Content) Leap:
  • “This is just like a huge leap of bound to have Heated Rivalry...a huge deal for Canadian television.” (Joanna, 27:51)
  • The show’s breakout status on HBO Max in the US is discussed as significant for Canadian exports, alongside recommendations like North of North (29:13).
• Production Insights: The show is “expensive for a Canadian production, but dirt cheap for an American production,” but visually “quite beautiful.” (Joanna, 36:46)
• Time Jump Structure: The story spans from 2008 to 2017 in just five episodes, giving viewers a decade-long relationship arc (Mallory, 28:57).

4. Characters and Performances

• Connor Story (Ilya) & Hudson Williams (Shane):
  • Ilya is the “flashier character,” while Shane’s performance is reserved, subtle, possibly neurodivergent—both lauded by the hosts.
  • “His performance is really informed by this idea that Shane is neurodivergent…a lot that he does with a glance…really impactful.” (Joanna, 19:27)
  • “Hudson’s performance is the one that has really grown on me across the season.” (Mallory, 24:12)
• Star Ascents:
  • “It feels like this guy’s about to become...one of the most famous people alive.” (Mallory, 21:08)
  • Notable Instagram “rapid ascent”: “Two weeks ago, they had like 80,000 followers... now they’re both at half a million.” (Mallory, 21:57)
• Styling & Cultural Reference:
  • “They’re styling Connor Story as Ilya a bit like Patrick Swayze in Dirty Dancing…which then, of course, made me think about Keanu and Swayze in Point Break, which is, I think, one of the queerest movies that’s ever existed.” (Joanna, 25:26)

5. Queerness & Professional Sports Context

• Historical Parallels: Mallory details the scarcity and significance of out athletes—Jason Collins (NBA, 2013), Michael Sam (NFL, 2014), Carl Nassib (NFL, 2021), Luke Prokop (NHL/AHL, 2021).
  • “He became the first openly gay NBA player...the first active male athlete in any of the four major North American sports to come out while actively playing, 2013.” (Mallory, 44:12)
• Narrative Stakes:
  • The show grounds itself by exploring the obstacles for queer athletes, distinguishing between coming out as gay vs. bisexual, cultural tension (Russia/Canada/US), and nuances of passing, code-switching, and public pressure.
  • “It felt like we were gonna get this moment where Scott made this choice and it changed something about the league.” (Mallory, 50:19)

6. Episode 5 - Major Plot & Emotional Beats

a) Shane & Rose’s Dinner (Sophie Nélisse as Rose) (33:32–36:46)

• Coming Out Scene: “I think that was one of the best scenes that Hudson has delivered inside of the season. The reluctance and shame and I think actually fear...and then the palpable weight lifted that he has finally been able to say this to one person.” (Mallory, 35:09)
• Memorable Line: “‘The thing is, I kind of prefer being the hole rather than the peg.’ Just such a great scene.” (Mallory, 36:19)
• Editing highlights flashbacks of Shane and Ilya, juxtaposing physical passion with emotional intimacy.

b) The All-Star Game & Their Growing Connection (54:48–56:05)

• Public Intimacy: “They get to be teammates for one beat here instead of rivals...Ilya assists on a Shane goal, and they get to celebrate together...The kiss on the side of the helmet.” (Mallory, 55:22)
• Subtle Progression: “They are less worried about who's watching...because there’s a magnetism and pull to each other.” (Mallory, 55:38)

c) “Russian Phone Call” Climactic Scene (58:13–60:30)

• Most Impactful Moment: Joanna calls the Russian-language phone call “a really beautiful piece of television…the Fleabag Season 2 effect, where I just lean closer and closer to the TV screen.” (Joanna, 59:34)
• Emotional Highlights:
  • “There is nothing in the world more important to him than being present in that moment for Ilya, in the way that is right for Ilya, who is the person in need right then. I just thought was like lovely.” (Mallory, 61:02)
  • “Can you feel the truth for the other person, right? Can you sense what they are thinking and what they want and what they need even if they haven’t said it to you?” (Mallory, 62:02)

d) Scott & Kip’s Cup Win

• “What a powerful thing. And it would be a powerful thing for anybody of any age…It felt like we were gonna get this moment where Scott made this choice and it changed something about the league.” (Mallory, 50:19)

7. Anticipation for the Finale

• Speculation: Both hosts predict the finale (“The Cottage”) will involve significant emotional and romantic movement, likely not an immediate public coming out.
  • “We should be on every surface, indoor and outdoor of the cottage and surrounding grounds. I expect to see sex.” (Mallory, 65:40)
• Parental Themes: Joanna speculates on Shane coming out to his parents and how the business pressures (his “momager”) might play in.
  • “I believe his dad already, definitely already knows and I think his mom probably knows, but…his dad is going to be fine and his mom is going to have…the business issue with it.” (Joanna, 69:31)

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On Romance TV’s Success:
  • “TV is just finally brave enough to give it to us.” (Mallory, 12:01)
  • “People like sex, people like watching sex, people like reading about sex.” (Mallory, 13:12)
• On Character Chemistry:
  • “It's crackling, the chemistry between them in all respects.” (Mallory, 12:02)
  • "It’s sexy to see people, but...it’s really sexy if the people who are fucking are embracing the totality of the person in their arms.” (Mallory, 16:18)
• On Canadian TV:
  • “This is just like a huge leap of bound to have heated rivalry...a huge deal for Canadian television.” (Joanna, 27:51)
• On Queerness & Sports:
  • “There are plenty of terrible people out there every day who make you feel like you can't be who you are.” (Mallory, 51:43)
• On Narrative Devices:
  • “The show is sexy in a lot of ways outside of just the sex scenes...what can pass in a look or a whisper is also, like, electric.” (Mallory, 13:33)

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Key Timestamps

• Intro & Podcast logistics: 01:05–03:16
• Phenomenon of Heated Rivalry, romance TV, and genre trends: 06:16–18:00
• On actors, performances & character archetypes: 19:27–27:00
• Canadian television context & Cancon, business talk: 27:51–29:31
• Narrative, timeline, time-jumping structure: 28:57–30:20
• Queerness and pro sports context/historical cases: 41:24–48:19
• Dinner with Rose, coming out, editing choices: 33:32–36:46
• All Star Game & relationship progression: 54:48–56:05
• Russian phone call scene, closeness, performance: 58:13–61:02
• Speculation for Finale (“The Cottage”): 65:40–70:12

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Final Thoughts & Outro

The hosts express both anticipation for the finale and a bittersweet “pre-mourning” for the end of this chapter, yet excitement for season 2. They tease forthcoming coverage and the potential for a “House of Reeds” book club.

• “Just can't wait for the finale. But also sad it's ending. So that's the familiar push-pull of the end of the TV season that we've loved.” (Mallory, 67:30)

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[End of Summary]

Transcript

[Mallory Rubin]

So good, so good, so good.

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[Joanna Robinson]

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[Joanna Robinson]

Hello, welcome back to the Prestige TV podcast feed. I'm Joanna Robinson and joining me today by overwhelmingly popular demand, it is the queen of horny TV herself, Mallory Rubin. Mallory, how are you doing?

[Mallory Rubin]

Joanna, it's the thrill, honor and privilege of my life to be here with you to talk about this television show. Thank you.

[Joanna Robinson]

I have the, I had the joy of asking you in person when I was in LA last week in if you would do this and you were just sort of like, yes, yes. Where? When? Yes. You were just so excited to talk about heated rivalry. And here we are today. It's heated rivalry episode five. And we'll be back again for the finale to cover episode six. So that is your spoiler warning. If you have not watched up through episode five of this show, what are you doing? It has been hyped. I saw it majorly hyped before I watched it and I watched it a little early. So I was just like, oh, dear Lord, what is going to happen in this episode? And we will talk about all of this. But before we do that, just some like quick burning reminders. Rob and I will be back on Friday for Pluribus, the penultimate episode of Pluribus and then back again next week. So you'll have a heated rivalry episode next week and then also a Pluribus finale episode. In that Pluribus finale episode, Rob and I are doing just like a little mini like end of your mailbag thing. So prestige tvotify.com if you have any larger year end questions for us, we're just tucking that in at the end of the Pluribus finale podcast. So those are some Christmas week treats for you coming from the Prestige TV show.

[Mallory Rubin]

Can I send an email? Here's what it's going to Say, why haven't you started Landman Season 2 yet?

[Joanna Robinson]

Will I ever watch. Will I ever watch Landman Season 2? Is the real question. You had an opportunity to make me watch it and you chose to make me watch Avatar instead. So that's on you.

[Mallory Rubin]

I know. Well, we have a podcast to make, you know, it's pretty important that we figured out how to talk about Avatar.

[Joanna Robinson]

Mash, one of the biggest movies in the world. I guess so. Okay, so listen, we have, you know, we're only doing a couple heated rivalry episodes, alas. So we're not doing like a special prestige TV tailored email address. But, Mallory, I wanted to give you the opportunity if we were to have a prestige TV email address just for heated rivalry.

[Mallory Rubin]

Yeah.

[Joanna Robinson]

What do you think it should be called?

[Mallory Rubin]

What an absolute honor it is to be consulted on this proud prestige TV tradition. Okay, so I think a lot of the best suggestions and nominations for this very sexy, very spicy show. I don't know if that's what you want your email address to be. Right. So I'm gonna offer up a few permissible here at our. At our corporate parent. You know, this is the home of.

[Joanna Robinson]

John Hansnipple rings gmail.com.

[Mallory Rubin]

I know, but that's like, tame compared to some of what we could toss out here. All right, I'm going to give you a few and then let me know if you have a favorite among the bunch or any that are better than this, which you probably do. All right. We could just go, of course, with lilliandjanemail. Com. If you're in the know, you're in the know. You know, sweet ginger ale and vodka. Okaymail.com. you know, I thought that the fact that Ilya had the ginger ale for Shane at his place in episode four was one of the subtlest and sweetest ways to show us that he's paying attention. And Joanna, not sure if you know this, but paying attention to things, it's how we show love.

[Joanna Robinson]

It's true. If you ever wanted to make me a tuna melt, I'm ready and willing and waiting.

[Mallory Rubin]

Had a great crunch. A great crunch on that tuna melt. I thought seemed very, very, very, very tempting. Scott Hunter is 100,000 years oldmail.com Got a real kick out of that text from Ilya in episode five. He's like, there's no way that New York is winning the cup. Scott Hunter is 100,000 years oldmail.com. lucky banana socks gmail.com. if we want to stay on the Scott corner for a second. What about you? Alexi Gmail.com Ilya's brother is just a terrible person. So we could, we could cement that and then I think we of course should consider and probably pick square pegroundhole.

[Joanna Robinson]

Gmail.Com I'm gonna yes and that and say my one submission to your many beautiful ideas was whole. Not peg. Gmail.com not peg.

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Well, there you go.

[Mallory Rubin]

I'm the rose. Putting out first line. You're Shane building on it, coming up with the quote of the season, the quote of the book as I understand it too. A favorite line that people were delighted by.

[Joanna Robinson]

I'm so excited to hear what research you've been doing into the book world, et cetera, et cetera. This is episode five. I'll believe in anything. Written and directed as all these episodes have been by the great Jacob Tierney. Only one more episode to go, which is very sad. Mallory and I are famous for sort of pre morninging the end of a show. There is a second season that's already been greenlit, so that is exciting news. And as Mal alluded to, there's a bunch of books in this series. So Mel, catch us up. Like, how is your heated rivalry journey been going? I have the pleasure of sort of being there in the Inception when you were like, should I watch this? And I was like, oh hell yes, you should watch this. And, and we've been sharing like text back and forth, but like tell the folks how's your, how's your heated rivalry world going?

[Mallory Rubin]

I'm having the time of my life. I think this show is fantastic. Like genuinely wonderful, very touching, very compelling, really well made, very sweet, very sexy. I had a, I think a fairly typical experience where it was all over my Instagram before I had watched it. Now I did watch it the week it premiered. Like the double, the double premiere drop. So one, yeah, and I watched, I watched one and two a couple of days after they posted. But in the previous stretch of time, one of the things that we like to do is always compare where our algorithm stands at a given moment. You know, how much of it is Stranger Things, press junket and red carpet. How much of it is heat of rivalry. Of course, one of the fun things that happened to me a few months ago was my entire algorithm was the summer I turned pretty, even though I had not watched a second of that show. But such was the film. Yeah, exactly. I consumed it through memes and Instagram reels. Maybe one day I'll watch it properly in full.

[Joanna Robinson]

But.

[Mallory Rubin]

But Connor Story and Hudson Williams were everywhere. They were all over my Instagram feed in a way that was like. I felt like there was a draw and a magnetism to the experience before I had even consumed it. I was intrigued. I knew I wanted to watch. I consulted you. You said, definitely do it. Immediately. I loved it. I thought the first two episodes were really great, really fun, but I think that every single episode has been better than the previous one. I thought four was wonderful. I loved the Scott Kipp episode three, Excuse me. I thought four was excellent. In the end, where Shane and Ilya are looking at each other across the dance floor at the club was just really electric. And five was masterful. I just thought five was a wonderful episode of television. So I'm excited to be here to talk about it today. And it's a little bit different than some of the other episodes. I mean, in this episode, we have three sexual stretches but no explicit sex scenes. You know, there's a difference in cutaway. Yeah, the cut. The cutaways. So it feels like we are, you know, evolving inside of the season. Though I am expecting a number of very vivid sex scenes in the. The finale. Well, we'll see that.

[Joanna Robinson]

Jacob Tierney. Don't let her down, man.

[Mallory Rubin]

No, that's the thing is, like, nothing in the show has let me down so far. And one of the really fun things has been not only watching it and falling in love with the characters. I've not read the books. I've sort of started to, like, learn about them, but also cautiously, because I don't want the outcome of this season spoiled for me before I finish watching it. But maybe I'll.

[Advertisement Voice]

I am.

[Mallory Rubin]

I. I'm intrigued. And maybe I'll check the books out after I finish season one. But just this is, like, driving so much conversation in my real life. Like, so many of the people I know, either our colleagues or pals of ours are like, are you watching Heated Rivalry? Have you watched Heated Rivalry? What do you think of Heated Rivalry? Very rare thing in my life is that I've been out the last two Saturdays at holiday parties. As you know, I basically never leave my home. So interacting with, mingling with a number of people is an incredible rarity. Maybe things like this would happen all the time if I went out more. I don't know. But I don't think so. It feels like this is just driving conversation in real time in a notable way. And like at both of these engagements, multiple people were like, I want to talk about Heated Rivalry. It's just like, the thing we should.

[Joanna Robinson]

Think these lines, these were ringer and Jason parties, both of them. And, you know, it is a sexy, queer love show, but it is also a sports show. So this is, you know, pop culture and sports. This is ostensibly what we do here at the Ringer. So I'm really excited that this is something that people are talking about. And what's interesting been interesting to me to observe is like, you know, when my pal Richard Lawson was so nice to come on a couple weeks ago to cover through episode three, we were talking about it as something of phenomenon. And I think it is just extreme. Exploded so much more since then. Richard and I were texting back and forth about there's like gay bars in West Hollywood who are screening episodes on a weekly basis. You know, like, there's online controversies. There's, you know, what has happened, you know, with the actors, the way that they've exploded out of the show. It's just been like, really, really fun to watch and it's really exciting. As I always say, it's really exciting when everyone's watching a thing. And I agree with you that this, from the beginning, this started as like something very fun and sexy and entertaining. And then I would say I think 4 and 5 are like, 3 was good. I think 4 and 5 were genuinely great episodes.

[Mallory Rubin]

4 and 5 were amazing.

[Joanna Robinson]

When we covered it up through 3, I was like, can I really make the excuses? This belongs in the quote unquote prestige TV feed, which we are very fast and loose with that term anyway. I would not make the same, you know, have the same reservations about four and especially five. I would say this is. This is definitely prestige television. I wanted to ask you, Master Doctorate, that you are in. In. In the ways of all things horny.

[Mallory Rubin]

Thank you.

[Joanna Robinson]

Something that Connor Story and Hudson Williams did was get matching sex sells tattoos, which I really love that as like a sort of. We know what we're doing here and we're aware of it and we're fine with it. And you should probably be fine with it too. But what is it, do you think about romance television? Like, you just mentioned the Summer I Turned Pretty was a phenomenon this summer. And this is. That's in like the sort of more teen centric romance genre or horny television. When you think about like Bridgerton or normal people, like, obviously sex sells. This is a thing. But like, is there something going on that this is the kind of thing we really, really need right now? Or what do you think? What do you think is. Or do we always need it and we're. And TV is just finally brave enough to give it to us. Like, what do you. What do you think?

[Mallory Rubin]

I think like, little column A, little column B, all of the above. Like, I love the tattoos. I love their relationship. I mean, they're wonderful together on the show. Obviously the show doesn't work if they're not wonderful together, but watching them in all of these interviews and the way that the performers interact and have clearly bonded is just like, it's crackling the chemistry between them in all respects. And I love that they have leaned into it not only with this tattoo to commemorate their friendship and what this has meant to make this thing together, but this really unapologetic embrace of the sexual aspect of this story and of. Of life and of like, discovery. Right. Discovering who you are, discovering who you might be with somebody else. Like, that's a. Can be for pe. Some people an exciting part of life. And like, I think people like sex, people like watching sex, people like reading about sex. As you know, because we've talked about this on our pod house of our. The ro. The romance, like the romantasy boom on. On in our universe. And the genre side of things is like, newer to me, but has been eye opening. Wonderful to discover. Just absolutely wonderful to discover. Talk about something that's dominated my algorithm. And you know, I think that, like, what you said is, do people always want this? I think yeah, in some ways people always want it. Maybe there's something about this stretch of our lives where there's so much misery in the world every day and it'. It feels good to watch people, like, enjoy something that feels good. You know, we're.

[Joanna Robinson]

We're.

[Mallory Rubin]

It's 2000 end of 2025, December of 2025, like five years since COVID and people were alone and isolated and like, I mean, raw. Being near each other and touching each other and undressing each other. It's just like every single aspect of it is. Is scintillating. I think there's something too about, like, you read it and you have these really vivid descriptions, but also your imagination. And then there's different about like watching explicit scene in a show. But I think that the. The show is sexy in a lot of ways outside of just the sexies. The sex scenes are wonderful, but what can pass in a look or a whisper is also like, electric in the show. So it's. It's nailed every aspect.

[Joanna Robinson]

Very, very. Like, there's a lot of yearning going on.

[Mallory Rubin]

We love a lot.

[Joanna Robinson]

We love a yearn. There's a lot of yearning going on. There's a lot of like murky, you know what I mean? There's just like a lot of knowing glances. All this sort of stuff I do, I mean, that was always my understanding of why normal people, you know, sort of popped. The way that it did was, you know, we were in Covid. We were all, you know, disassociating from our own lives and out of touch from each other, et cetera, et cetera. The fact that this trend has continued where the romance publishing genre, which you and I have talked about on House of R has exploded has always been something that was popular, but it has been like people are less covert about their love of romance and for the better. I think romance as a. Like, in the publishing industry, the romance genre is the most sort of like, reliably selling genre, not to mention romantasy, which is, you know, just even a splinter of that. You've got a bunch of stuff that's coming up from like, Emily Henry and Ali Hazelwood. Like, these romance authors are having all these projects developed, which we will see on tv, like, coming very soon. So, like, this is something that the people who make television and films are cottoning on is something that people desperately want. But I think there has been even post Covid, just the way we live now is so disconnected. You and I are like, I think as close as people can be. We barely ever see each other. You know what I mean? We conduct our working relationship and our friendship through screens, you know, and that's just like the modern truth of how we live. So I do think that sort of that physicality, that touch, that embrace, that. That tangible expression of desire and then also the humanity of it, especially as we're sort of grappling in. In this AI Boom era. I think this is like, very real, very messy. You. You can't do this with an algorithm. You can only do it with another person kind of experience is something that I think a lot of people are interesting in embracing right now.

[Mallory Rubin]

Yeah. And I think there's something too. Like, again, I will not deign to claim expertise on the. The genre en masse here. Like, I just not ignore what. I've not seen enough of it in any form in the printed page or. Or on the screen. But it seems to me my initial foray and I. I look forward to continuing to discover more. My initial foray into some of the stories that have popped recently. Again, I didn't watch the summer I introduced, but I had a sense, I think, of what was driving the Conrad obsession and the collective burying of Jeremiah. Right. I think that There are a lot of reasons that people find Rhys and Feyre or Zaden and Vi compelling, but like one of them is the old Mark Darcy, like just the way you are. That's part of it, right? So it's, it's sexy to see people, but like, it's really sexy if the people who are fucking are embracing the totality of the person in their arms. And that is elemental to what we are watching here in heated rivalry, obviously. So I think there's something about that that adds an emotional attachment. It's almost like our version as readers or viewers of the difference between like a relationship and a one night stand. Right. It feels like deeper in some way. And so people form a, a little bit more of like not only a, a desire to spend time in that way, but an attachment, an attachment to the, the people that they're. They're watching fall in love or just fuck a lot.

[Joanna Robinson]

I think, I think also the greatest trick that a romance story can play is the act of separation. How do you keep two people who clearly want each other separated? And in the summer I turn pretty. I don't need to go into the machinations of that particular love triangle in normal people. It's sort of these very deep internal psychological issues that these characters need to work through in order to connect with each other. And, and, and here it's, you know, the pressures of being public figures for, for Ilya as, as, you know, better explored in this episode, being Russian, you know, in the first place, and then for both of them being in professional sports, being, you know, for, for Shane in particular, I would say we see him again and again doing these like, product endorsement deals. You know, this is like a huge source of his income. Could he be the face of this cologne or this soda or this what out as gay? And this is sort of the story that they've told themselves that they cannot be. And then we get, of course, the Kip and Scott moment inside of this episode where they just see like, so good. Is this possible for us? You know, really good. We'll talk about that a little bit more specifically. I just want to hit a few more things before we get into this specific episode. Anything else you want to say about Connor and Hudson? I will say, uh, so Hudson just got picked up by cea. This is a big deal in terms of like, you know, a Canadian actor who has like barely been in anything is now being repped by one of the biggest talent agencies. Like, that's how quickly his, his star has risen. Um, also, I've Been hearing some chatter about sort of like, you know, Hudson as Shane, and Connor is Connor. We're trying to talk about this. Connor has, I think, the easiest job, easier job in that Ilia is the flashier character. And what Hudson has to do with Shane is much more reserved, repressed, smaller, quieter. And I was talking to a named friend of mine who was like, I'm not sure. I think he's a very good performer. And I was like, I actually think it is. It was interesting because Rachel Reed gave an interview where she confirmed, I guess, like, a fan theory that Shane was, like, neurodivergent somewhere on the spectrum. And it really. And she said that she talked about this with Jacob Tierney, with Hudson Williams. And so, like, his performance is really informed by this idea that Shane is neurodivergent among all the other repressive things that are swirling around him. And I think there's a lot that he does with a glance and there's a lot that he does with smaller gestures that actually are really impactful to me. But I'm curious, sort of like, what you think of these two actors and their potential coming out of something like this.

[Mallory Rubin]

I think they're. It's one of those really fun experiences where you are exposed to people for the first time. I subsequently realized that I had, I guess, technically seen her story in Joker too. But how often are we all thinking about that movie? You're just kind of instantly like, these people are going to be a part of our lives and our shared experience for years to come. I think they're both great, genuinely. I think they're both great in the early episodes and early weeks. The Connor story, I mean, Ilya is my favorite character. I love Ilya and Shane, but perhaps unsurprisingly, Ilia is my favorite character. And the Connor story performance really, like, blew me away. In the first couple episodes. I was texting some people in my life, and I was just like, I feel like this guy's about to become one of the, like, a star, you know, one of the most famous people alive. Not just in the, like, where are your Instagram followers in real time, though. I have also been tracking that. And they. I will say one of the fun things about this is that they're, like, really staying at pace with each other. It's clear that everyone's following both of them in the same time. But, you know, we're banking this a tiny, tiny bit early. And I think at, like, the time of our recording, they were both already at, like, you know, half a million. Two weeks ago, they had like 80,000 followers, like, when I started following them. So, yeah, Rapid ascent on Instagram, which is an N indicator, but not the only indicator, certainly of star potential. You know, they're on magazine covers. They're everywhere. And Connor's story just felt to me like, you know, you and Richard talked about this. The kind of like, okay, casting directors are going to be paying attention. You could just feel instantly like this is what's he being cast in, like right now. You know, And I think some of it is that he is on screen to me, just like a stick of dynamite. It's. It's. It's explosive and powerful and very compelling. And I think that his performance. I mean, obviously there are the very, like, oh, my God, you had to learn Russian in a week aspects of it. I loved the little wink inside of episode five. Like, yeah, you could learn it in a week. Like, yeah, no problem.

[Joanna Robinson]

No accent.

[Mallory Rubin]

Yeah. Really great. You know, learning to. To play. Play hockey and skate to the extent that, like, the actual hockey is a huge part of the show, which it really isn't, but hockey culture obviously is. And the way that he is speaking Russian, like, to my ear, which is of course not an expert year. What appears to be flawlessly. I don't know, it seems to me amazing.

[Joanna Robinson]

I've gotten, like, a little feedback from people who speak Russian who are like, native Russian or. Or I'm sure, I'm sure. And they're like, it sounds a little like, you know, Rusky to them, but sure, it reminded me of. I don't know if I've ever told you this story. I used to live with Ukrainian, and I would, like, try to match his accent. And like, one time I called him and I was just like, doing the. Doing the accent on the phone, and I was like, how do I sound? He says, you sound perfect from wherever you are from. And, like, sort of like, it's consistent. It sounds great because it's just super consistent.

[Mallory Rubin]

Yes.

[Joanna Robinson]

And so I just, like, we can buy in really easily. Yeah. Because it just sounds like it sounds. Yeah. Consistency.

[Mallory Rubin]

I wasn't, like, surprised to see some interviews, you know, on my. In my Instagram algorithm where people are like, wait, you're not Russian? As, like, an opening question. And so I think that that performance kind of like bowls you over right away and has become, in a way that I've really enjoyed, subtler and quieter over the episodes. As Ilia, the character who is more like, outwardly, at least with Svetlana or Shane, this is who I am. It's okay to like what you like. It's okay to want what you want. But I can, as we hear him, you know, just explicitly say in this episode, like, I can't go home to Russia ever again if I. If I say this out loud. And then Hudson's performance is the one that has really grown on me across the season. And I'm just, like, so moved watching him in the last couple episodes. And I think that the. All of the things that you said, and just in general, like, the fact. It feels to me, right, for all of the reasons, all of the aspects of Shane's life and his circumstances and, like, the things that he is navigating and the fact that he is. His journey is like a sexual journey and a journey of discovery and identity, but it is also. It's like a journey of understanding himself. Right? And so, like, the quieter, more reserved, shy aspects of it, I think the way that the show has made textbooks of that inside of their relationship, where Ilya, like, you know, ribs him for being boring and stuff like that, is really expert and very sweet. And I just think they're both great. They're great.

[Joanna Robinson]

It reminds me a bit of, like, our discussion of Heartstopper, where you've got one character who has come out and knows he's queer and one character who's, like, discovering his sexuality. And so, like, you have someone who's on a whole different journey. And so Shane coming to terms with his own sexuality is part of this whole thing. It feeds very much into the, like, romance novel trope of he fell first, he fell harder. Like, that sort of back and forth. I just think is really interesting. Last thing I'll say. And I noticed it particularly in this episode. I was already making this sort of, like, Hudson Williams, young Keanu comp in my head. These, like, Canadian hunks or whatever. But I really do think that they're styling Connor's story as Ilia. A bit like Patrick Swayze in Dirty Dancing. He's wearing a lot of black tank tops in this episode, which is like classic Swayze, Dirty Dancing to me. Which then, of course, made me think about Keanu and Swayze in Point Break, which is, I think, one of the queerest movies that's ever existed. So I'm here for it. I'm here for all of it. One last thing I want to say before we get sort of, like, in the specifics of this episode, a bit more than I have, Tank talks to the side is just on the business front, just talking really briefly. We got a really interesting email from our listener in Montana about what's called Cancon or Canadian content. And Montana was just basically outlining the way in which, because of the various rules of Canadian television in terms of like funding, you can get tax breaks, you can get. There's rules about how Canadian content has to be produced. And it has to do with like 50% of what's aired in Canada has to be Canadian grown, homegrown. And also in terms of like sending Canadian content into the world, the impulse has been to be quite conservative. Like, we don't get too flashy, we don't get too experimental with our content. We, we farm out fairly staid, I don't know, Ella Montgomery based content or whatever the case may be. And she said, you've seen a bit of growth in that area with like Schitt's Creek or Letterkenny and Shorzy, a show that I know that you really love, love, love Shiv. But she's like, this is just like a huge leap of bound to have heated rivalry, which is. Which is streaming here on hbo Max. So I'm sure plenty people in the US just think it's an HBO show and that's fine. That happens all the time. Who really cares? But it is a huge deal, I think, for Canadian television. And there was a really interesting interview with some of the executives behind this. You know, I usually leave the TV business, talk to Chris and Andy, they know much more than I do. But I thought this piece in the Ankler, an interview with Leslie Goldberg from the guys who sort of went all in on this show and took a huge risk and how the risk has paid off for them was really, really fascinating. So I recommend that as like, if you're interested in sort of what does this mean for the television landscape as a whole, you know, sorry, no pun intended, phrasing, but like, I think that like, sorry, I just said it and then I heard it. But like, I think the samurai turned pretty and heated rivalry popping the way they did means of course we will get more romance television. We will get more like more sex friendly television. That's all great. What does it mean for like Canadian exports? I'm excited to see, you know, like, I think that's really interesting. So last but not least, Montana did recommend. I haven't watched it, but Montana said if you want more great Cancon to watch, I definitely recommend north of north on Netflix too. I haven't watched it, but it sounds like something I might want to check out over the holiday break. If love it got the stamp approval. Anything else you want to say in a big picture sense before we get into specifics of episode five?

[Mallory Rubin]

You know, I guess just on the time jump front, I'm like so intrigued to know that a season two is coming because we start in 2008 and in this episode we're up to 2017. So we've watched these two characters in five episodes of TV. Really four, because, you know, they're briefly in the Scott Kip episode in episode three, but that episode was an Orient around Ilya and Shane, and so we've spent a decade with them and we have one to go. And the fact that there's a season two, because knowing there are multiple books set around multiple characters, I was like.

[Joanna Robinson]

I wonder, like, how central will they.

[Mallory Rubin]

Be seasoned, how central will they be in season two? But like, they're so. They're so central to the fan experience and relationship to the show. It seems like everyone is just saying we're doing a season two and Shane and Ilya's story will continue and that there are ongoing Shane Ilya plots in the book. So that I don't know, like, does season two take place over six months or does season two continue to move us through time? I have no idea because I haven't wanted to spoil it for myself, but I found it a little disorienting in the first episode to so rapidly move across the calendar. But now, toward the end of the season, it has given us this sense and feeling that we've lived these years with them and have a deeper understanding of what they've meant to each other over time and what else has happened around them in their lives. Even though five hours of TV is just ultimately not that much.

[Joanna Robinson]

So it's been interesting to watch them go from like. I mean, they're essentially teenage, right. They're like 19, 20, maybe in the first episode. To watch them go from like rookie of the year, whatever the case may be, to captains of their respective teams. Yeah. And to think about what it means to try to engage in this both in time, in the history of, like, what it means to be out and queer in the U.S. canada, Russia, et cetera, over the span of a decade, that particular decade, and then in your life as a teenager versus, like someone who's. Who's pushing 30 at that point. Right.

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[Mallory Rubin]

All right, we're gonna get into the.

[Joanna Robinson]

Episode now more specifically and just say first and foremost, I can't believe we've gone this long without talking about Babe from our Yellow Jackets coverage. Sophie Nalyse.

[Mallory Rubin]

Unbelievable.

[Joanna Robinson]

Who has a killer scene in this episode as Rose, but was of course very, very integral to episode four. I texted you before you watched episode four and I was like. I was like, so Shauna's here. Shaun of the Yellow Jackets is here. Here she comes. I loved this dinner scene. It was so beautiful. The way that both Rose and Svetlana inside of this episode and the way in which all people like, you know, Hudson's BFF on his team or whatever the case may be is just sort of like, yeah, yeah, yeah. Like Jane and Lily, like, we get it. I don't care. Go do your thing. But I just, I loved this scene. I thought it was really, really beautiful. And I loved. I loved the parting of the ways too. And this genuine. Just sort of like, let's be friends. No, really, let's be friends.

[Advertisement Voice]

Yeah.

[Mallory Rubin]

And then they're on the phone with each other at the end of the episode and you, you have no reason to believe that that, like, won't be the case moving forward. I also thought this was great. Always wonderful to see young Shauna. You know, it takes me to the wilderness right away. Of course. And it's not the only Yellowjackets cast member here in our heated rivalry.

[Joanna Robinson]

Correct, Correct.

[Mallory Rubin]

That's been quite fun. One of the things that I've loved about this season so far and the Shane Rose storyline is one of the ways in which we got this is just how Ilia and Shane observe each other's lives from afar, you know, so.

[Joanna Robinson]

If via like social media.

[Advertisement Voice]

Yeah.

[Mallory Rubin]

Like, well, when one of them is in didn't, you know, make it as far, like, they're not fighting for the cup that year, the other one is. And they're watching on the screen or yes, a news conference, whatever this may be, and so happy for each other. Everyone else is like, fuck Rosen. And yeah, the way that Ilya, who can say all he wants, including in this episode, like, it's simple for me, like, you know, we meet up, we fuck. And then of course, later, later in the episode. I can't wait to talk about that scene. It's. That's not where he is with it. Of course, the doom scrolling of every paparazzi shot of Shane and Rose and comments about how like, oh my God, this is our favorite couple and the relationship we're most obsessed with, all of it. That's just really, I think, smart as a technique to allow us to glimpse something that maybe they're not ready to totally fully admit to themselves.

[Joanna Robinson]

Yeah.

[Mallory Rubin]

The dinner scene with Shane and Rose, I agree, I just thought was like, really lovely and both of their performances were wonderful. I think that was one of the best scenes that Hudson has delivered inside of the season. I mean, across those few minutes, the reluctance and shame and I think actually fear, like somebody is about to ask me the thing that I've been afraid they're going to ask me. And then the palpable weight lifted that he has finally been able to say this to one person. And like, it wasn't just okay, it was wonderful, you know, it was like just so beautifully and artfully captured. And then the, like the, you know, like the hand over his mouth and the little giggle with like. The thing is, I kind of prefer being the hole rather than the peg. Just such a great scene. I really loved it. And I thought that from an editing and like, filmmaking perspective, the stretch where Rose says, you know, can I ask if you've ever been with another guy? And he just. Quick little nod and then have you Ever told anyone that before? Head shake. You know, was it. Was it different? Yeah, of course. Was it better? And between each of those questions, we're flashing to different moments that Shane and Ilya have shared. And some of them are like, you know, was it different? Was it better? They're tearing each other's clothes off. Like they can't wait to put each other in bed and get in. Get in bed with each other. But, like, the. One of the moments that we saw was just that quiet, tender little kiss in the stairwell, which is my favorite.

[Joanna Robinson]

Like, one of my favorite moments of.

[Mallory Rubin]

The totality of their love story with each other in little glimpses. I just thought that was great.

[Joanna Robinson]

I will say. So, something that Jacob Tierney has said in interviews is that he's like, this is expensive for a Canadian production, but dirt cheap for an American production. So he's made this with very little money. I think this is a quite beautiful show. Like, as I. As I. As Richard and I talked about, and as I know, you know, like, we're both familiar with Jacob Turney's work with Letter Kenny and. And Chorzy, you know, and I know that I knew that he was talented. He's. He. He performs on both of those shows. Writer, director, et cetera. I knew. I knew that he was talented. I didn't know that he had this level of sort of artistic eye necessarily in me, because. In him, because that's not really what Letter Kenny and sh Necessarily are. Are about. Though there are some moments of Letterkenny that. That I would. I would give that to, but, like, I just. I'm so excited, you know, obviously he's going to do a season two, but, like, what else is Jacob Tierney going to get to do after this? That really excites me, too. So, yeah, I thought that the way that scene is lit in this, like, golden glow and the hush intimacy of, like, a nearly empty restaurant, and even though they're like, two of the most famous people in the world, they're in this sort of, like, beautiful private bubble, so often overexposed, but in this, like, actually, let's be honest, let's have this conversation moment.

[Mallory Rubin]

A little cocoon of safety. And I thought even then, just the transition to, like, walking outside to the street corner, but continuing their conversation was a good way of indicating. And now we take the next step, and then the next step, you know, I thought, yeah, all of that was just. It's subtle, but it's very effective inside of the episode.

[Joanna Robinson]

Here's what I can say with certainty about hockey.

[Advertisement Voice]

Uh, Huh.

[Joanna Robinson]

I dated a hockey, I dated a hockey player for several years, years in college. Great person, wonderful. The best hands out of a hockey glove is some of the like the worst smelling things you've ever experienced in your entire life. Like I have no comp for it and I understand that like all sports equipment gets rank. There's something extra level about a hockey glove. And so that has just been on my mind throughout this. Just like thinking about the hockey. So that's my level of expertise I.

[Mallory Rubin]

Can bring to this.

[Joanna Robinson]

Mallory, you're more of a in the sports world than I am. Obviously. I know you went to a Shoresy hockey event.

[Mallory Rubin]

I did.

[Joanna Robinson]

Past week.

[Mallory Rubin]

I saw our beloved Sudsberry Blueberry Bulldogs in person and it was electric.

[Joanna Robinson]

So like a. This is something that, you know, I remember Bill talking to us about how the soccer looked on Yellow Jackets. How does the hockey look for you on this show? And then I also just kind of want to talk to you. I talked to Richard about this a little bit, but like we're in 2017, like where are we in terms of like queerness and pro sports? Like where, where is the level of acceptance either in hockey or just like across, you know, the pro sports world.

[Mallory Rubin]

At this point in terms of the how, how are the hockey scenes? Like, how is the actual hockey? So let me, let me say this. My. I'm a sports obsessive. Hockey is the major pro sport I spend the least time with. Sure I am. I'm married to a passionate Colorado Avalanche fan. The actually Colorado got a shout out in episode five in the Ilia Svetlana conversation. So that was fun. But you know, growing up in Baltimore, like Baltimore doesn't have a NHL team and I would never root for a Washington team, Washington D.C. team, obviously. So I wasn't going to root for the Capitals. And then like when I went to Syracuse, they had an AHL team, so I went to a lot of crunch games. I think it's really fun to see hockey live. When I lived in New York, I went to a lot of hockey games. I don't really go and I've been to like one LA Kings game. Just sort of sad to say. I've lived here for nearly 13 years anyway, so I don't feel necessarily like I'm dialed into. I kind of can't help but think about that when I'm watching a football show or a baseball show or a basketball show. It's not as top of mind for me watching a hockey show. I don't know that the hockey is the Best. But I think that's okay because again, it feels much more about the culture of hockey and the visibility of being a very famous person. You know, these are. They're supposed to be the two best players in the sport, and their celebrity is kind of undeniable. Right. So I think the show is more interested in, like, what does it feel like in that locker room or at.

[Joanna Robinson]

The ESPYs or whatever the comp is.

[Mallory Rubin]

That they attend Wood Circus, you know, at the Player Hotel, at the All Star Game. I was glad to get an All Star game here because as I think I've mentioned you before, I would like to have. I would like to get a Ilya Rosenoff hockey sweater, a jersey. But I would never, ever, ever wear a Boston jersey. Obviously, I'm from Baltimore and Boston is a rival sports city, so I can't buy a Boston Raiders jersey. That's unthinkable. But may the. The east team All Star jersey, if they sell that, like, I could consider it at least. And you know, also, that's the moment when Ilia and Shane. Would you be teammates? Who's going to center?

[Advertisement Voice]

Who.

[Mallory Rubin]

Great, great stuff.

[Joanna Robinson]

Would you, Would you wear Montreal Metros? Would you wear New York Admirals?

[Mallory Rubin]

No, I would never wear a New York. I mean, other than Syracuse, where I went to college. Like a, Like a. A New York City team.

[Joanna Robinson]

Got it.

[Mallory Rubin]

Absolutely not. Though I am a big fan of hot Scott, of. Of hot Scott Hunter. So, yeah, it's got to be the All Star jersey. Montreal Hollander Jersey, maybe. Yeah, maybe. I would at least consider it. I would consider it in terms of your second question about how the show is placed in time and engaging with its timeline. You know, I think so. First of all, I will not claim, like, encyclopedic expertise here, obviously, but I, I think this feels very right and very real to me in terms of what any player would be navigating or thinking about in this time. But I think especially in the, Obviously in. In the, in the universe of heated rivalry, it's the mlh, not the NHL, but, like, it's the NHL, right? Yeah. So in the. And they're Russian and Canadian, but the NHL, it's an American sports league. You know, in the major leagues, the four major sports leagues, the NHL, the NFL, MLB and NBA, it is incredibly rare still for a player to be out. Like, I think a lot of play, A lot of sports fans who follow closely would be able off the top of their heads to name key moments where players came out. And like, on the hockey front, I Mean, so recently, Sean Avery, who played in the NHL for years, he said, he gave an interview and he said like, he thought maybe that this show could actually help encourage a player in the NHL to, to come out. Luke Pro Cop, who was drafted in 2020 by the national, the National Predators, he's in the AHL. He came out in 2021. So one year after being drafted. And when he did that, he was the first player to come out while under an NHL contract, the first in 2021. Now, I want to be clear that that's not the same as saying the first professional hockey player to ever come out. I'm drawing the distinction here between the major leagues. So that was like, that's notable, right? That that was in 2021 and he was the first Wallander and NHL contract in the NBA. Jason Collins, there's a very, very, very famous Sports Illustrated cover. He became. And this was, this was 2013. So inside the timeline of the show, he became the first openly gay NBA player. He, he came out, there was a cover story about it. And he was the first active male athlete in any of the four major North American sports to come out while actively playing 2013 football. Michael Sam, outstanding college linebacker at Missouri. He came out in 2014 heading into the NFL draft. Now, I think you will. There would, there are people out there who would say he tested poorly at the combine. He was undersized for a linebacker. He was like projected as a mid round pick. He fell to the seventh round. He was drafted, he was drafted by the Rams. He ended up playing for briefly for the Cowboys practice squad, the Dallas Cowboys practice squad in 2014. And then he played in the CFL. So he became the first openly gay player to play in a CFL game in 2015. So inside the timeline of the show. And then more recently, Carl Nassib, he's a defensive end. He became the first openly gay active NFL player. This was a really big moment. He was playing for the Raiders. He came out in 2021. He played for the Raiders and then the Bucks. While out.

[Joanna Robinson]

I saw a great inter. I just got. I guess I'm being served queer athlete content now on Instagram. So they're like, do you want this? So they gave me an interview where Carl was talking about, I don't know if you've heard this story where he was like, before he was out, he was like playing a game and they were doing some maneuver. The opposite team was doing some maneuver that I didn't understand what he was talking about, but he was frustrated. And so I Think he called them gay asses or something like that. And he was like, four of them turned around and said, you can't fucking say that. And he was like, this was a real moment to me where I was like, oh, there are allies here for me, that made him feel safe to take a step forward and come out. And I was like, oh, I love that story. And he was like. And I was confronted with my own ignorance inside of my own, like, queer experience, which is really interesting. I'm thinking a lot about. Thank you so much for that contest. Thinking a lot about Shane and Ilya and the. If you want to call it, advantage that Ilya has in his bisexuality in that he can, like, go out with his teammates and like, have sex with a. With a woman and like, sort of like perform quote heterosexuality in a way that like, Shane is trying to with. With Rose but, like, really struggling with. But like, in terms of like, code switching and passing or whatever, like Ilya has this advantage of his bisexuality not, you know, not to, like, talk about things I don't understand. But that is something that I think is, like, interesting to think about in inside of their different experiences. It's one thing to be gay, which Shane makes very clear. He is inside of this episode. And as he points out, it's a different thing to be bisexual inside of this world. And I think that that is. I think it's really compelling to have those two differences, you know, with the biracial element for Shane or the. Or the, you know, back home in Russia element for Ilya or all, you know, or. Or Shane's parents being so involved and supportive. But what kind of pressure does that put on you? You know, with his, like, momager and all this sort of stuff like that. So I. I just think, like, yeah, all of that context is really interesting to me.

[Mallory Rubin]

Yeah. And I think, again, like, that's certainly not a comprehensive list. When you and Richard potted, like, Richard mentioned some Olympians who are out there, tennis players, soccer players, you know, there's some MLB players who came out after their playing days. There are some active minor leaguers who have come out while playing in the minor leagues. There are more openly gay players in women's leagues. Of course, I'm. This is like. I think part of this is like this macho male locker room culture and the stigma and the fear of how you will be treated if you say, this is who I am and this is who I love. And I think on the one hand, we are, of course, seeing every day that there's more like acceptance and love and an embrace and more people who have grown up with really progressive, healthy, open attitudes about all sorts of things, Right? Sexuality and gender expression among them. And that's great. But of course, there are still plenty of people full of hate and people who are prejudiced and bigoted, and that's a scary thing. Even if there are a number of people around you who might surprise you by how welcoming they are, or you see acceptance all around you for other people all the time, I think that the show is right to acknowledge that for those guys in that position, it would feel like a massive thing. And I thought when. When the. Without knowing that the Scott Kip story was actually the first book, like, when I watched the third episode, I didn't. I didn't know that that was actually where the Game Changer series started. It felt to me like, you know, there are moments earlier in the show where, like, Scott's like, well, what. What did you guys just, like, say to each other? Or like, your boy, not my boy. Right? All that. And it felt like, okay, we're gonna learn more about Scott. It feels like I was not expecting a full standalone episode, but then when we got it, it felt to me like, this must be here, because we are going to. Because Scott is going to be the trailblazer, because he will come out. And as, like, the. To Ilya's point, 1,000-year-old Scott Hunter, like, old guard that, like, what a powerful thing. And it would be a powerful thing for anybody of any age and experience, of course, to be clear. But, like, it felt like we were gonna get this moment where Scott made this choice and it changed something about the league.

[Joanna Robinson]

I don't know if this is context in the book, and it was really funny. When Richard and I did the episode a couple weeks ago, I heard from a lot of people saying how weird it was for them to have read the books, and I hadn't. They were like, this is a really awesome listen to, like, a Joanna podcast where you haven't read the books. So Rich and I were like, will Scott and Kip come back this season? Or whatever. And they're like, you dummies, we know how important they are to this story. But it was. It's. I'm curious, like, how much the fact that, like, you know, we keep hearing these people talk about Scott being washed up. He's towards. He's at the end of his career. He's an old timer, so he gets the cup this season, right? Does he then retire like, is he done? You know, that would be my expectation. Does that just change? He's just like, this is it. I did it. I got the cup. Fuck all the, like, radio announcers in my ear during my runs and stuff like that. I get to smoosh my boyfriend, and then I get to say fuck you to the. To the. To the league.

[Mallory Rubin]

You know what I mean?

[Joanna Robinson]

That would be.

[Mallory Rubin]

My guess is that that's where it stakes, right?

[Joanna Robinson]

Yeah.

[Mallory Rubin]

And I think that's another. It's kind of just a continuation of what we were just saying, where I think the show and this, obviously, the book does the story in general, this world, it feels really honest because, you know, my feeling, your feeling, I hope the feeling that many, many, many people watching this carry with them is like. Like, it's so. And sports fans in real life, like, it's. This is sad. It's tragic. If you feel like you can't live your life proudly and openly, that's, like, a terrible, terrible thing. But it is honest to acknowledge that that's the reality that a lot of people find themselves in. Still, even when we would like to think that a lot of people have made a lot of progress and grown a lot, there are plenty of terrible people out there every day who make you feel like you can't be who you are. So, yeah, if. If Scott is like, you know, the episode ends with. I thought that the. Everything was gone. Kim was just wonderful. The camera moving just slightly in toward Ilia, and then Shane and the looks on their faces, like, I was getting.

[Joanna Robinson]

I was, like, breathless watching them.

[Mallory Rubin]

Oh, my God, Scott.

[Joanna Robinson]

What? Hearing the announcers be like, who's this lucky fan?

[Mallory Rubin]

Is it a fan? Big day for him. If. So, it's like, buddy, you have no idea.

[Joanna Robinson]

It's really great.

[Mallory Rubin]

And I.

[Joanna Robinson]

And I want. I want to shout out again, I already mentioned, like, Rose and Svetlana, but Elena, who is Kip's, like, bff, who's there with him. Like, I just thought that was, like, a really great character who's had very little screen time to, like, really sort of endear herself to me and make herself part of this story. But, like, I. I loved. I. I love that. And then. Then Ilia is like, you know, shame being surrounded by his parents as he's watching this, you know? And then the Ilia phone call. I do want to zoom back and say, anything you want to say about the All Star game section. I was, like, particularly really endeared to the Ilia with kids in the pool scene. That was just like, very charming while he was still being himself, but also just, like, very playful with these kids. And involving Shane in. In this moment was just, like, really, really, like, like, sweet and, you know, and then the, like, sexy, slow mo. He gets out of the pool and Shade is watching. Yeah, really good.

[Mallory Rubin]

Listen. Heated Rivalry contains multitudes, but it is not a heated rivalry episode. If we have not seen Ilya's astonishing packs and. Or glutes at some point in the episode.

[Joanna Robinson]

Yeah. The mole. The mole array on his chest.

[Mallory Rubin]

Unbelievable.

[Joanna Robinson]

Yeah, so we need. There's a shot in this episode when he's, like, brooding back home in Russia drinking vodka, and I was like, why is your shirt off?

[Mallory Rubin]

I'm fine.

[Joanna Robinson]

Okay, sure. I guess so.

[Mallory Rubin]

You know, the. The hotel room convo, that's a part of the All Star Game stretch. We don't see the sex scene after the. The conversation that they have, but when we cut to Shane leaving, Ilya is shirtless in bed behind us. So we. The bedding is rumpled.

[Joanna Robinson]

It's.

[Mallory Rubin]

Yes.

[Joanna Robinson]

In disarray. I would say it is.

[Mallory Rubin]

I really like the All Star Game stretch. I thought that the. The bar scene was another good example to me of, like, the. The subtle way to show us how their relationship has progressed. You know, the fact that just, like, they are sitting next to each other for that long, talking and engaging with each other. I mean, these are characters. There are a few episodes, many years, but a few episodes ago, it was like, we. Anybody can see us. Like, why we. Why would we be talking? We're arch rivals. You know, so little things like that. I thought that the moment where Shane was like, don't make fun of me, but I got a stylist was just a.

[Joanna Robinson]

Just incredible.

[Mallory Rubin]

Absolutely perfect. And then in the game, you know, the fact that they get to be teammates for. For one beat here instead of rivals. And this question of, like, they're both centers, so who's gonna get to play center? And then, you know, Ilya assists on a Shane goal, and they get to celebrate together. And, like, that smooches.

[Joanna Robinson]

The helmet.

[Mallory Rubin]

Yeah, the. The kiss on the side of the helmet. Like, they're not afraid. They're less worried about who's watching and what people might think. Not because all of these big questions are not so present in their lives, but because there's a magnetism and a pull to each other. Shane says it in room conversation. He's like, I kind of. I can't keep pretending I don't like you. You know, And I think that the stretch captured that really well, just that authentic need they have to, like, share life with each other and share moments with each other.

[Joanna Robinson]

There's also a kind of classic romance novel progression inside of certain worlds where they go from calling each other by their last name to calling each other by the first name. So we like, first get in episode four and that, like, sex scene, that becomes like, too real. And, and Shane bales, as he sort of cops do as out of this epis. But then you get the repeat of it inside of this episode when he leaves. And they're much more like, you know, they're still unspoken things. There's still Ilia saying, like, it can't be like this, you know, all this sort of stuff like that. But there is the just sort of like, goodnight, Shane, Goodnight, Ilia sort of moment in which they're much more settled. It's like in the throes of passion the first time. And then it's just in this much more settled version inside of this episode.

[Mallory Rubin]

Yeah. Like, you say goodbye to your person and you call them by their name. It's great. I, I, so I thought in the hotel room conversation where Shane is like, I have this big thing to tell you, you know, and Ilya's like, yeah. She's like, sorry if I'm like, boring, but this is a big deal to me. I thought all of that was, was great. And I loved in particular in this conversation about, like, what they want. When Shane said it felt like we were something. You know, he's apologizing for getting scared and bailing, but he's like, it, it did feel different. It was different. And Ilya tells him, you know, we can't be something. And I loved when Shane said, would you want to be if we could? Which just, I don't know, it felt like such a perfect encapsulation of where they are. Like, there are all these real questions and but what do you want?

[Joanna Robinson]

Do you want me and Ilia not answering? Like, Ilia does not answer that. In my head, I'm like, that's not what he asked. Then she's like, that's not what I asked. I was like, thank you. Good job for saying that.

[Mallory Rubin]

Yeah. And then before we get to the phone call, which I can't wait to talk about, just a little moment here where kind of breaks and he starts to cry, talking about his father and just the way that Shane held him.

[Joanna Robinson]

And like crawled into his lab and holds him.

[Mallory Rubin]

And then that's the moment that we cut away when normally we would be, you know, the camera would be the third participant in their. In their sex scene. It's like, because in that moment, like, that's the depth of their intimacy. That's what the connection is.

[Joanna Robinson]

We're not invited to that. Yeah, yeah. Slept that interesting. Okay. And then we get, you know, among many other things, there's the injury. There's all these things that happen. There's the. Tell him I'll be fine. He'll worry. But I think sort of like the last thing I really want to talk about is this phone call where Ilya is speaking in Russian and Shane is just listening. Like, and what a beautiful thing for Shane to think of. Just sort of like, speak in Russian and I will, like, listen to anything. Anyway, I really did think. Think that Hudson's performance here of just sort of like hanging on every word to like, sort of see what you could understand from tone or word. I gotta. I got worried for a second because I was like, well, he definitely heard Svetlana, but that's not like, what. Yeah. What he's gonna say. Or like, have you googled how to say love in Russian? Because it's in there. Stuff like that. So like. But. But the listening. And then of course, like, Connor as Ilia performing and like, saying the thing that he can't say, you know, and he's in this, like, tunnel graffiti, like laden tunnel. Just sort of like outside and not alone in a room inside, but outside. Vulnerable in a space that is unfriendly to this kind of confession. Saying something in his native tongue in a space where someone could hear him. There's no one really around, but someone could hear him, but not able to say it yet to Shane. And I can't remember if I said this to Richard when we recorded earlier this week, but I have said it recently, so I'll just say it again. There is a thing I do sometimes when. Especially when it's a show about romantic tension, and I call it The Fleabag Season 2 effect, where I just lean closer and closer to the TV screen as I'm just sort of what's gonna happen here. That's how I was, you know, in all the sex scenes. I'm like, I know what's going to happen. But during this phone call, I'm like, what's. What is he going to say what I really hope he will say. And then he does. And it's like, Shane doesn't know, but also does he kind of know. And it's just a really beautiful piece of television.

[Mallory Rubin]

This was my favorite scene of the season. I Mean, I just thought I was crying. This was so good. And again, great Hudson performance across the season. I think in particular in this episode, you know, when he's in the hospital bed and he's like drugged up high shade, he's like, hey, you know, very great the comedic range, etc. But I agree with you. I think these just like the camera just still on his closed eyes and.

[Sponsor Voice]

The.

[Mallory Rubin]

Way that his attention is so apparent. Right. There is nothing in the world more important to him than being present in that moment for Ilya, in the way that is right for Ilya, who is the person in need right then I just thought was like lovely. You and Richard talked about the text messaging when you guys potted after season three and how like, you know, that can go so wrong in a show. It could be just really up debacle on a show and how this show is actually used it quite well, I think not only to like give us little insights into how they're communicating, but obviously it unlocks the like, oh, how's, how's Boston Lily? Or you know, not the way you love Jane, like you observed already the observation that other people in their close, close inner circle orbits, like have about who they're interacting with, even just as a way to kind of show us where we are in time, like, oh, we're at the, the, the imessage like blue bubble arrow, right. You know, like things like it's actually been kind of helpful like going from emoticons to emoji. This was an even better example, I think to me of how the show has used technology to heighten intimacy instead of stifle it. Because, you know, the deployment of technology in a, like a relationship, it could, it can be, it just bad, but it could also be like a cheat. You're trying to like fast forward something that we don't totally understand. And in some ways that is maybe a reflection actually of how people interact in modern life. Right. I'm old and washed and have been married for a thousand years, so I'm not the best person to comment on how the, the, the kids out there are talking to each other these days. But what this phone call did, it's like it doesn't matter at all that he doesn't speak or understand Russian because this is asking us a question like, can you feel the truth for the other person, right? Can you sense what they are thinking and what they want and what they need even if they can't or haven't said it to you? And that is even though there are A lot of steps that they have to take together still. And the episode ends on Ilia saying, after telling Shane at the hospital, like, I can't, you know, I can't do that. I can't go to the cottage, you know, and we coming. Yeah, we had watched him. This is another how they watch each other. One of the things that he was watching that Ilya was watching on TV in prior episode was Shane talking about his cottage and how it was like his favorite place in the world and the place where he felt beast.

[Joanna Robinson]

Shane's Cribs epis episode essentially, exactly like Mr. Real Estate. Lana.

[Mallory Rubin]

Oh.

[Joanna Robinson]

Something that I. Something I didn't know that. That the book readers informed me was like, earlier in the season when they were talking about he got this apartment, you know, he got this one apartment in Montreal, and then he bought the apartment next door. And he was talking about how he's like, oh, I'm not sure what I'm gonna do with it, et cetera, et cetera. It's an investment. Yeah. But what the book readers are saying is that he, like, bought the apartment next door so that he could like, Ilia up there, essentially, just like bot does. Does your, you know, sexual partner care about you if he doesn't buy out an entire floor of a high rise? So you can just, like, be as loud as you want to be.

[Mallory Rubin]

Where is our fuck palace? That's my question to every romantic partner from here onward.

[Joanna Robinson]

There you go.

[Mallory Rubin]

So, yeah, I just, I thought that scene was great and the episode was great and the show is great.

[Joanna Robinson]

It's great. That's all I have to say about that. I do. I, I. Okay, I'm embarrassed. I don't, like, usually love to admit being dumb, but here we go. It took me way too late to realize that, like, Jane sounds like Shane and Ilya and Lily are, like, close together. It took me, like, way too long to figure that out. I am, like, really embarrassed by that. But what I love inside of this episode, we get. We understand, because we know how stories work, that, like, Ilya ignoring Alexei's, like, repeated phone calls probably means, like, he's ignoring something that's happening with his dad that is probably going to, like, you know, come back to haunt him. So that's necessary for plot purposes. But also, there's just this sort of like, ignore your eyes at every single Alexi phone call. But any buzz that happens to be Shane, you are, like, reading it. You are smiling and blushing at your phone. You are just sort of like, enjoying your. Your any, like, Any crumb from this other person just like lights up your day. The, you know, it's just like really beautiful. Last but not least, I will just say the finale is called the Cottage. And I'm like very, very excited to see what we see there. I mean a cottage on like a private lake.

[Mallory Rubin]

We should be, we should be on every surface, every surface, indoor and outdoor of the cottage and surrounding grounds. I expect to see sex. Will High Shane pain. Pain medicine. Shane was like, we could have one week, we could have two weeks. Who knows?

[Joanna Robinson]

I will say his parent, he. They in the Cribs episode, they did say that his parents like, like summer home or whatever is nearby. That is information we have. Follow up question.

[Mallory Rubin]

Yeah.

[Joanna Robinson]

Will. What will Shane stock the fridge with? Is it Coronas? Is he going to be making tuna melts for Ilia? Like are we getting some like good vodka? What are we, what are we doing to show that we pay attention and that. And that.

[Mallory Rubin]

That's a great question. You know, Shane's like food intake. His macros have, have been a through line of. Of obviously he's like, oh yeah, I'll have a beer now. And. But I don't know. I think the question is Ilia seems a little more he. I was surprised to see all like the. It was like a lot of ingredients in Tupperware. Like he's doing meal prep as well. So I know this is a great question. I guess.

[Joanna Robinson]

So curious about the stack of Tupperware. Whereas for the tuna melt that means the tuna salad is pre made. Okay. Maybe the cheese is pre shredded. Okay, yeah, I do that. That's great.

[Mallory Rubin]

Lettuce, lettuce leaves.

[Joanna Robinson]

Like do we put lettuce on a tuna melt?

[Mallory Rubin]

I guess some people, you know, because if the tuna, if the tuna salad itself is already made then presumably because you could have like some celery or you know, if you put onion or something for texture and then you're mixing it up but the tuna's already made, then what are all the other Tupperware for?

[Joanna Robinson]

I mean I don't think it was one Tupper too many that I was like, what is, what is this for? Do we. Oh maybe like yeah, we put pickles on our tuna melt. I don't know. Anyway, Russians do love a pickled item. Is something that I know is to be true. Okay. Anything else you want to say about heated rivalry episode five?

[Mallory Rubin]

Oh boy. Just can't wait for the finale. But also sad it's ending. So that's the familiar push pull of the end of the TV season that we've loved.

[Joanna Robinson]

Yeah.

[Mallory Rubin]

The reminder that the parents are nearby is a great one because my expectation. And again, I genuinely have no idea what is coming in these books. I, I'm pure on the spoiler front. I have, I have no here. My expectation would be to your point about Scott and how he was like, all right, I, I'm 40, I've won the cup. You know, we had even heard him say to Kip in episode three, basically, like, I do want this, like one day after.

[Joanna Robinson]

Yeah, give me, give me time. Give me, give me a year, give me a couple years. Something like that. Yeah.

[Mallory Rubin]

And. And so I feel like there's going to be this surge after watching what they watched into the cottage stretch. And then probably has probably a kind of a conversation maybe exactly about that. Like, okay, but like he just announced he's retiring, he's out of the league. It's not the same. And that maybe that will cause some tension if one of them is ready for something that the other one isn't. And of course you could come out without revealing your relationship with each other. But I wonder if the finale, the big move in the finale is Shane coming out to his parents. I don't expect that either of them to go public in the finale if we're getting a season two. That's just my guess based on the fact that season two is coming. But I don't know.

[Joanna Robinson]

I don't know how. Yeah, I don't know how the book. I think there are two Shane and Ilia centric books. There's like a mid series book and then towards the end of the series book. So I don't know. Same. Please don't spoil me via email or tweet. I don't want to know. But here's my guess. Not knowing. I would say his dad who when his mom was like come to Wimbledon for the girls essentially and his dad.

[Mallory Rubin]

Was like, really sit next to a princess. Yeah.

[Joanna Robinson]

I believe his dad already, definitely already knows and I think his mom probably knows, but is like, so I would say his dad is going to be fine and his mom is going to have. But the business issue with it and what will that mean for their future? Stay tuned to season two to find out. But that's a guess that I have based on zero information from the book. But just based on the breadcrumbs that have been laid so far. I'm excited for us for the cottage montage of every surface and definitely a lot of swimming montages. We got a lake right there. Yeah.

[Mallory Rubin]

Some skinny dipping for sure. No, no question. No question. Yeah.

[Joanna Robinson]

I love that. Okay. Mallory Rubin, thank you so much. Thank you for hopping over. Talk to me on Guess what, if you enjoy Joanna Mallory talking about men in love who are separated and one of them sort of flamboyant and a bad boy and the other one is a bit more repressed. We will be covering Interview of the Vampire season 2 later this week on House of Art as well as one of the biggest movies of the year that Mallory had to force me to see, even though it should be my job to see Fire and Ash as well as a couple trailers that are gonna be. We're doing all of that as part of our annual gift exchange over on House of R later this week. We'll also be covering the rest of Stranger Things in House of R. So like, please tune in. And then of course, Rob and I will be back with Pluribus with the end of your mailbag. Prestigiouspotify.com not whole. Notpegmail.com that is not an email that I have procured, but Spotify.com belongs to us, so it is licking the donut. Gmail.com. molly Rubin, you're just the best to ever do it and I am so glad that you had the time to do this with me. Thank you.

[Mallory Rubin]

Thank you for this gift. Thank you for this gift. I can't wait to watch the finale. I can't wait to talk about it together. Maybe we'll do a little check in at some point if we read the book. Books ahead of season two.

[Joanna Robinson]

Yes. I love that for us.

[Mallory Rubin]

Little book corner, a little book talk. Should we make a book talk?

[Joanna Robinson]

Should we make a. I've been actually wondering if like next year should be House of Reads.

[Mallory Rubin]

I agree. I've been thinking about it as well.

[Joanna Robinson]

You know, like a book club, like sort of thing.

[Mallory Rubin]

Book club, book talk, reading passages, talking about stories we love. Opening at long last House of Reeds. What will we be serving? Will we have tuna melts on the menu at House of Reads? Stay tuned to find out. Out.

[Joanna Robinson]

It's a. It's a pungent aroma to invite into our lives. Thank you to Dev and Pearli for production work on this episode. Thank you to Justin Sales for happily agreeing when I said please let me cover this show on our prestige feed. And. And we'll see you very soon by.

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[Mallory Rubin]

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[Mallory Rubin]

To be clear, that's half price. Not half the service. Mint is still premium unlimited wireless for a great price. So that means a half day. Yeah, give it a [e-mail] Switch upfront payment of $45 for three month plan equivalent to $15 per month required new customer offer for first three months only. Speed slow after 35 gigabytes of network spizzy taxes and fees extra. See mintmobile.com.