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- [00:00]
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- [00:27]
Rob Mahoney
I'm not an astronaut.
- [00:28]
Joyda Robinson
I don't need an astronaut.
- [00:29]
Rob Mahoney
Audiences have spoken. Project Hail Mary is an awe inspiring masterpiece. So I met an alien. If you've fallen out of love with going to the movies, this one will bring you back. Ryan gosling in the first must see movie of 2026. Project Hail Mary, rated PG13, may be inappropriate for children under 13. Only in theaters March 20.
- [01:16]
Joyda Robinson
Hello, welcome back to the Prestige TV podcast feed. I'm Joyda Robinson.
- [01:19]
Rob Mahoney
I'm Rob Mahoney.
- [01:20]
Jody Walker
I'm Jody Walker.
- [01:22]
Joyda Robinson
Oh hi Jody Walker. We are here to talk about a very disturbing episode of television. Never mind.
- [01:29]
Jody Walker
I come with a lot of smiles, I'm realizing in the intro for what
- [01:32]
Joyda Robinson
we're getting in exactly. We're here to talk about the industry season finale both and written and directed by Mickey down and Conrad Kay. We are going to start where we have the last couple episodes, which is I'm going to ask you, Jodie Walker, did you like this episode of Television?
- [01:49]
Jody Walker
It's never Rob Mahoney. It's always Jody Walker. Did you like this episode?
- [01:53]
Joyda Robinson
It could be Rob Mahoney. Rob Mahoney.
- [01:56]
Jody Walker
Did you like this episode? Did you like this episode?
- [01:58]
Rob Mahoney
You know what, I'm so glad you came to me first because I don't know, I feel very complicated about this finale. I think I am like very interested in the bigger picture shifts that the show is taking towards entering into the political sphere in an even more overt way, setting up potentially next the fifth and final season. I think tapping into some of the ideas within that world that industry seems interested in, I'm thrilled about. Do I fully buy where all of our core characters ended up? Based on the development and roadmap of this season in particular, I just don't know that I do. And so that leaves me in a weird place where big picture, I like a lot of what's happening, but the intimate personal stuff I really don't know what to make heads or tails of.
- [02:42]
Joyda Robinson
Are you talking about Yasmine specifically who has of course the most controversial ending here, or is there anything else you had in mind when you're saying that?
- [02:49]
Rob Mahoney
I think there's two things. The big one is definitely Yaz. Where? Look, Jo, you've been on the Ghislaine Maxwell front all season.
- [02:56]
Joyda Robinson
Ghislaine, I don't like that phrase at all.
- [02:59]
Rob Mahoney
Do you not live in that space? Is that not how you're spending so much of your quality time these days?
- [03:04]
Joyda Robinson
Yeah, it's true. It's true.
- [03:05]
Rob Mahoney
So, like, look, the writing was on the wall. We can't say we weren't warned as far as even some, like, the biographical similarities. In terms of what's been happening with Yaz. I just feel like we were maybe like a hop, skip, and a jump too many in terms of where we're to believe that she has gone over the last couple episodes morally, in terms of the lines she's willing to cross, we can get into that in greater detail. I also think Harper, in terms of, like, Harper, team player, felt like something I was told was happening in this episode, and I don't know where I was supposed to see that over the back part of this season.
- [03:38]
Joyda Robinson
All right, Jodi, what do you think?
- [03:39]
Jody Walker
Okay, well, thank you for coming to me. Second, I. Strangely, you know, I think I had a tougher time with the middle of this season where some of these, like, big changes and more bringing in of politics and this fascist party and Nazis in the middle. I was finding that a little strained. And here at the end, having not entirely trusted the process, for me, it's worked because I think for me, it looped in a lot of the personal stuff with Yaz and Harper, which is, of course, the beating, sad, maybe dead heart of this show.
- [04:18]
Rob Mahoney
Yeah. Where are we on female friendship after this finale?
- [04:21]
Jody Walker
Which is like, listen, you know, I just have questions. All right. We are at a place where I think what worked for me about this finale and the way that the end really brought it together is that Harper's endless desire to be singular and Yasmine's endless desire to be a part of something and how those are so things that could work for good, and when I don't want to say the deck is stacked against you because anyone can take the other path, but when maybe the bad workers in the world or the industries that surround you are begging you to go astray, how easy it is to do that in the wrong direction. And I know that this turn for Yasmin feels extreme, but in other ways, it feels so easy. And more than most of the personal beats, in this show, the way that it has been laid out, that Yasmin wants to be necessary, wants to be a part of something, and she's so bold as to have actually said it at this point, that, that made sense to me. Even though it was really tough to
- [05:32]
Joyda Robinson
take something that I think is really interesting, I really loved this episode. Not that I, like, had a great time watching it because I. It was hard, hard to watch, but it felt like really good, bold, audacious storytelling, which is what we want from industry for sure. And it felt really emotional. Like it's plot driven, but it's like the last half hour is Harper and Yaz in Paris. Like, that's half the episode. And like, for, you know, Jodie and I wanted this sort of reconciliation between the two. Not like this, but the fact that their relationship to me feels like the most important part of the show. And so for the show to be like, yep, it is, and we're going to spend a lot of time on it and, you know, we'll, we'll talk today about Whitney's departure and what's going on with Henry and all that sort of shit, but, like, Harper and Yaz are what really matters here. And, and so to see this all coalesce to. Yes. Rob, have watched several Ghislaine Maxwell documentaries in the last couple months.
- [06:35]
Rob Mahoney
You're a professional, you're doing your job
- [06:37]
Joyda Robinson
well to think about. So what's so interesting about Glenn Maxwell, like the main connective tissue between Yaz and Glenn Maxwell has more to do with her father than it does Jeffrey Epstein. What I think is really interesting, what they've done here, and we've talked about this a lot with like the wire cards, like fraud as a thing that they were adapting is they've taken the beats of a story that they find interesting and then sort of twisted and warped it and brought in other inspirations to create their own, like, special cocktails. So, like, they're isn't a Jeffrey Epstein figure in this story. You know, like Ghislaine Maxwell's father dies under suspicious circumstances on the yacht. Name for her. That's one to one. What Glenn Maxwell then does is runs to New York and finds a, like a double daddy. Like a second daddy, right? And she just like, sort of tucks herself under his wing and then does whatever he wants. And what he wants is for her to bring him young women. Like, and so that's, that's, that's. Her story is like, I took my daddy issues and I found another daddy, and I just did his bidding elsewhere to, like, horrible, horrifying ends for Yaz to not really have a Jeffrey Epstein figure because, like, she, she. She fled to Henry and the. The insulation of his money. But for her to, like, break out of that. And there's Whitney, Whitney's here and Henry's here, and there's all these, like, various, like, powerful men of varying degrees that she can sort of model her behavior off of, but, like, she's seeking that sort of protection inside of a system, rather inside of a person. And I find that sort of, like, tweak on the story. A really interesting choice. Jodi, do you have any thoughts about that?
- [08:17]
Jody Walker
Well, I think Yasmin is always seeking to be saved by power or some adjacency to power. And she wants so badly to become her own daddy in this situation. You know, she wants to be the person in charge while rarely committing to the systems and while also being a woman. You know, I mean, it's simply not going to happen the way that she would like for it to happen. And so what she often chooses as an unfulfilling plan B is to be the least vulnerable person amongst vulnerable people and to put these more vulnerable women below her and to be in charge of them and to quite literally pimp them out. And that's not a win. And she'll, you know, it's not gonna feel like a win, but she's going to paint it as a win. And that is, like, the fundamental Yasmin character is, like, painting losses as wins and trying to convince herself that they are.
- [09:15]
Rob Mahoney
Yeah, that part of it felt 100% believable to me based on everything we know about Yaz. And frankly, like, narratively speaking, I love the idea of Yaz going to such an extreme that Harper is desperately trying to reel her back into some middle ground place and just failing dramatically, like, has just totally lost the ability to pull Yaz back to a place where they can both stand together. I think that does a lot of interesting things in terms of where the show can go, I guess. Like, I'm just wondering, like, when. When do we think Yaz was capable of this? Because she's always been a character who is more morally pliable than maybe anyone else on the show in a lot of ways in terms of what she's been willing to do. But as you say, Jodi, like, literally pimping out not just women, but, like, a literal, like, minor and trafficking people across Europe in order to do it, to exercise her version of power towards whatever end she sees fit. That Part makes sense to me. I get that, like, this is the end point they're trying to portray. I'm just wondering, like, when did we cross that Rubicon to where she is, this version of this person who would do this thing?
- [10:16]
Joyda Robinson
But I don't. I don't think it's like, one line or one, you know, river to cross or anything like that. It's just like, the little steps know that you. That you take along the way. And I think we've been watching them since, you know, Mickey and Conrad were on the watch. Great conversations they had with Chris and Andy. And they cite, you know, sort of her treatment of Venetia in season two or her dynamic with Rob from the very beginning, which is all about sort of, like, manipulating someone who is more vulnerable, that Rob is like a more vulnerable, soulful person. And for. To feel powerful herself, she likes to. To wield power because she feels so powerless all the time. And so I think that's always been there. And to your point about this feels like a moral bridge too far. I think it's a moral bridge too far for Harper, but not for Yasmin, who is using the language of the. You know, she uses her father's own language inside of this episode when she's talking about, you know, when Harper's like, these are girls. And they're like. She's like, I lost my brain when I was 14. I became a woman. I wanted someone. So literally, what her dad says to her about the nanny that he fucked, you know, and stuff like that, like, literally using those words. And so I don't know, to me, this doesn't feel like I hear what you're saying, but I also. And there was, like, a little bit of time off screen between, like, you know, the divorce and her showing up with a chignon in France and stuff like that. But I just feel like it doesn't seem like a huge leap to me. Jodi, what do you think?
- [11:45]
Jody Walker
Can I say something that maybe does not support the beauty and power of female friendship? Maybe Yasmin doesn't make this leap if she doesn't meet Harper. And I think more of the language that we hear her repeat in this episode is when she's saying, actually, it's totally fine to get political donations from a shell company. She says. I mean, it's a gray area. That's where the edge is. That's what you always say. But Yasmin, as opposed to Harper, is really not someone capable of living in the gray area. She's in the black baby like, she is very much someone who lives in. In the black or white, the good or evil. And, like, at this point, we are seeing her commit to the evil. I found that a super interesting twist for the finale of season four as we go into the last season of the show, season five, as we know now. I thought from the beginning that we were barreling towards, like, the moral loss of Harper. Like, what's going to happen to this young woman who is a shark, who doesn't know how to stop? And I think that, like, a lot of those things are still true about Harper, and what we saw in season four is, like, some of the ways in which she's made those things sustainable for herself or not. I don't trust that she's not gonna go off the deep end now. But I did find it such a fascinating twist to much further with Yasmine as a character because she is less capable of dwelling in that gray and kind of always takes it too far more than Harper because she doesn't have the instincts.
- [13:25]
Joyda Robinson
This episode's called Both ands, which is something. Speaking of people repeating words, we hear Yasmin deploy this phrase in justifying her decisions to Harper, and then Harper uses it in her interview with Patrick Radden. Keefe, who has a cameo inside of this episode, he asked, does it. Does being so uniquely right when everyone was so totally wrong feel like vindication, or does it ultimately make you feel very alone? She says both, and basically, like, quoting Yasmin in a way that, like, is very chilling to me, but also very emotionally vulnerable to me. Rob, what do you think of this as, like, a title for this episode and a concept for both of these women here at the end of this season?
- [14:09]
Rob Mahoney
Oh, it's the most industry concept imaginable. That we exist in all of these spaces simultaneously, that we're going to twist them in order to justify them, as Jodi was talking about with Yaz. I also think it applies to a lot of the political dealings in this episode as well. This idea of, aren't these things wrong and beyond the pale. Yes. And all nations are doing it to each other simultaneously. And so it's just like, this fact of life that there is this level of compromise happening across all characters, across all nation states that everyone is trying to, like, justify their way around. That I find to be, like, an incredibly fertile space for industry to mine. As far as, like, the. The recurrence of, like, that specific line in this episode, I did find it chilling. I don't know what to make of the whole Patrick Radden Keefe. Like, coda, in terms of the interview with Harper, like, I. I don't know. I. I had a hard time with that as like a. It felt like a very. We think the show might end, and we're not positive we're going to be renewed for a season five. Very sensitive to the difficulties of writing under those circumstances. I don't know. It's just that whole exchange about being so terribly and uniquely right when everyone else is so wrong, and doesn't it make you feel so alone? It felt blunt in a way that I don't like industry when it's that blunt. Like, I prefer when it's a slightly softer hand than that. And I felt like in the end with Harper, that's where we ended up with a lot of this stuff is like, I'm being. I'm being told via interview with Patrick Redden Keefe, who Harper is in a way that I kind of know, but also, I don't. Kind of don't understand.
- [15:40]
Joyda Robinson
Jodie.
- [15:42]
Jody Walker
Yeah, I also found that coda a little confusing, mostly like the camera pivot to Kwabina. Like, I didn't. When we had just had the scene between them that was like, is it worth, you know, protecting yourself at the cost of everything else? Which I thought was an interesting line and an interesting answer. Yes, only harder, you know, and. And that we know that he's still there on that plane as she does this interview. I, I wondered what that meant. It's funny, Rob, that you say, like, that's such an industry thing. Like, that was my exact thought, was the, The. The repetition of the both. And, and of course, what she is repeating that Yaz has said originally is the world is not exploitation or opportunity. It's both. And that's the world. That's maturity. Oh, Yasmin. No, sweetie, like, and that's so industry, like, to just, to just outright say the world is not exploitation or opportunity. It's both. And actually, for some of us, those kinds of thoughts never come up.
- [16:50]
Joyda Robinson
Fun fact. No, I just think it's interesting for Yasmin to use the words of people who have exploited her to justify her actions. This idea of, like, this is maturity. This is. This is intelligent. This is the intelligent thing to do. People will just exploit you, so you might as well exploit them first, or else, you know, you're going to be the one who's vulnerable. I. I don't feel as much. Is essentially what she says here. Right. I don't have as much pain. I guess my question. And, And I Kind of like, if the answer is no, is like, do you feel like Yasmin is the one in control of this situation here at the end of the episode? Because, like, my not saying that, like, Haley's the mastermind of everything, but the way in which, like, Haley and these girls have hopped from Whitney's network, which involves, like, an upper echelon of Russian, you know, machinations over to Yaz. Like, Yaz is a go between, but she's not the architect of all of this. What they're doing, right, is they're gathering information on all these incredibly powerful, you know, people from various nations who are in. Who are gathered together in this room here. The way that Sebastian's eyes follow Hayley as she walks across the room. Like, they're gonna. They're gonna get kompromat on him and on all these people in the room. And is that not just then? We've got so many warnings about the Russians inside of this episode. In Mawson's conversation with Henry, in everything that happens with Jenny, is that not a trail to follow for season five of just sort of, like, Yasmin's a part of this, but she's not in charge of this and in control of anything? I don't know. What do you think?
- [18:28]
Rob Mahoney
I hope that's the case. And I say that in part because not only is that just, like, a great narrative thread to tug on, but Haley as a character, I feel like from the moment she left that elevator with Yaz, has kind of had, like, nothing else interesting to do at the tail end of this season. Like, she has been purely an accessory to the rest of the story. And, like, I hope for more of that character than that, because I think there's a lot that they could do with her. And I think Kieran Shipka has been regularly quite great on this show, and so if she has more of a role to play as. As we kind of, like, is hinted in this episode, as you're talking about Joe of, like, who is really in control here? I don't really care to what extent she's doing anything with the game tape, but, like, who has what leverage on whom.
- [19:09]
Joyda Robinson
Yeah.
- [19:09]
Rob Mahoney
And how that's going to be played for Yaz, I. I'm very eager to see, and I hope that's the case. I. I hope this isn't as straightforward as Yaz seems to believe that it is.
- [19:18]
Joyda Robinson
Jodi.
- [19:18]
Jody Walker
I think when you create a world or a worldview that makes you necessary and inevitably then makes other people less than necessary, you're A fool to believe that. As they were fools to believe that you weren't necessary.
- [19:36]
Joyda Robinson
Right.
- [19:37]
Jody Walker
And we see Yasmin convincing herself of these str. Sisters that in some ways, she doesn't believe in. And it's kind of interesting to hear her, like you said, repeating her father's language, saying that, like, she became a woman when she wanted to. When she, you know, lost her virginity at 14. When a lot of what I was seeing in this episode was, like, unfortunately, Yasmin becoming a woman now, like, she is sort of, you know, she's sort of, like, facing the adult world somewhat alone, finally, not, like, looking for a man to save her, but doing it herself. And I just distinctly get the feeling that it's not going to work, that she's not in control of the situation, that there are so many levels above her that to actually. When you create these structures for yourself, I'm either necessary or not necessary. And then you buy into that. You're necessary. It's like, of course not. I mean, we see this with Whitney. Like, he was really high up in this structure of how. And he's completely replaceable and, like, literally killable, you know, the whole episode. And I will talk about it when we get to Henry, but is about knowing your place and when you are so desperately looking for your place. Like, that's the one thing that Henry has, is that he feels confident in his place in the world, and that drives him. And it's the only thing that, like, gives him confidence or the ability to move through. And I think we. I think throughout all four seasons, we've seen that just so severely shaken in Yasmin.
- [21:12]
Joyda Robinson
Let's talk about Whitney and Henry on the plane. So, you know, the whole, like, Dickie Greenleaf, Tom Ripley confrontation comes back again. Instead of, like, oars are throwing passports. But we are, like, sort of just putting. Putting someone of a different class in their place. I was so frustrated that he left the money behind. I was like, why did you leave him? With a means to. To leave. And therefore, you have to take what minimal punishment you will take, which is like an ankle monitor, and you're back on the lithium. But, like, whatever. But. But Whitney getting to see Whitney try to put the fake beard on. Incredible shit. Honestly. Really, really good stuff. His whole house of cards collapsed, right? He's so confident that he can get Henry to do whatever he wants to do. And he does get the money to the plane, which is ultimately really what he needs.
- [21:57]
Rob Mahoney
I mean, it's quite a risk, Joe, to leave the money with Henry in the first place?
- [22:00]
Joyda Robinson
Well, I think it was just in that house. Right? Like, because it was. I guess.
- [22:04]
Rob Mahoney
I mean, it is a tender house.
- [22:05]
Joyda Robinson
Yeah, it was a tender house. I think that was just, like, where he had stashed a bunch of stuff and he couldn't get to it, so he didn't have anything.
- [22:10]
Jody Walker
Oh, I think he wanted the romantic run through the airport scene. I absolutely think he plotted that. Like, you think he built money there,
- [22:17]
Joyda Robinson
being like, Henry has to bring it. This is my life.
- [22:20]
Rob Mahoney
Yes.
- [22:20]
Joyda Robinson
Okay. I love that. I think so.
- [22:22]
Rob Mahoney
I think he wanted to reel that in and he could get Henry to the plane.
- [22:24]
Joyda Robinson
Romantic souls. And I love that about the flight. I think that's beautiful. Us and Whitney, what do you make of the. So the final shot of him? Because in the credits, like, we get him in this, like, red light, sort of like a very blink and you'll miss it sort of moment. Conrad and Mickey have said that this is from, like, a more extended sequence in a gay club in Lithuania. And this is like a shot through a glory hole in a gay club in Lithuania. And him just being sort of, like, paranoid about what's on the other side of that. Thinking about him, his use of Henry, maybe to your romantic soul's longing and missing. Longing for missing Henry. But, you know, did this feel like a Whitney Hollister will return, an Avengers doomsday sort of moment, or did this feel like a perfect kind of button on the character? What do you think, Jody?
- [23:10]
Jody Walker
I mean, I do believe that the threat of Whitney returning is always there. I mean, that's what he says when. When Henry's like, you really think I'm going to fudgeing run with you? Are you crazy? I'm a sir. The flashback and forth between the passports of, like, Sir Henry Muck and like, the Lithuanian name is he has sir on his passport. You think, I'm gonna run with you? And Whitney is basically like, we're not running. We're repositioning ourselves.
- [23:38]
Rob Mahoney
And incredible.
- [23:39]
Jody Walker
That is his Avengers superpower. It is his only power is to. And it's the power that Henry has marveled at is, like, his ability to constantly reposition himself, slap on some beard glue and tell a new story. I think it's more likely that he'll die, but I think that the threat is. Is always there, that he'll be back.
- [24:01]
Joyda Robinson
Rob, do you want him back or what do you think?
- [24:04]
Rob Mahoney
I absolutely do. I mean, for me, the Whitney stuff throughout this season has been some of the highlights of the season. I think the way he has manipulated everyone on the board. And, like, that's almost a construction of a character more than it is an actual character. Like, who knows what that guy actually is. But the way it spun everyone else around, I found to make for really compelling television. And it's tough because his story with Henry, this is a natural endpoint. Right. Like, Henry putting his foot down not for conscience but for ego, is like, a good button to put on their whole journey together. And so I don't know how Whitney gets pulled back in, but I'm never going to be mad if he is.
- [24:40]
Joyda Robinson
Jodi.
- [24:41]
Jody Walker
I think Sebastian. My thought is that it seems pretty obvious that we will be getting more Sebastian Stefanowicz. He's Savannah bitch. Yeah, he's such a Sebastian. To me, it's all the face. Just read Sebastian. Seb really does actually have been calling him Seb in my notes. Thank you so much.
- [25:00]
Joyda Robinson
Did you see that his. His son's name is Albin, which literally just means white. Yeah, like, my guy. Make it a little harder to.
- [25:10]
Rob Mahoney
No, he's so subtle, Joe. He's being so clever about it.
- [25:14]
Jody Walker
But he is also this sort of construction of a character, and. And, like, on purpose, he named his son white, you know, and he has, like, a dinner party full of n. I think to have both of those characters at once, really, there might be kind of a lot, because they are these, like, purposeful constructions to get ahead. And I think that that's what made Henry, like, a really good counterpoint to Whitney. And for me, as the season went on Whitney. I was very interested in Whitney as, like, a cult leader, someone on top of his manipulation game. And the more pitiful he got, the harder it became to watch. And I you. I don't think that I want talented Mr. Ripley, part two, but I would welcome back what sounds to be a scene shot entirely through the other side of a glory hole.
- [26:09]
Rob Mahoney
I mean, look, a cult leader gets a little down on his luck, and you're just abandoning him like that, Literally.
- [26:13]
Jody Walker
That's how Colt works. That's how Colts work.
- [26:16]
Joyda Robinson
Rob. Rob's a huge defender of Ripley's game. He loves a Ripley sequel.
- [26:20]
Rob Mahoney
Oh, completely.
- [26:20]
Joyda Robinson
Listen, so, Henry, let's talk about. So Henry's breakup, if you want to call it that, with Yaz. How did you two romantic souls feel about Yaz? Give him the old, like, fleabag. Whatever it is you're feeling, it'll fade. How did you feel about that, Rob?
- [26:39]
Rob Mahoney
I thought it was what he deserved after he tried to pull the word Catholic, for fuck's sake. I Mean, of all the Hail Marys you can throw in this particular instance,
- [26:47]
Joyda Robinson
they had a whole future, a life. And the kids are off. Come on.
- [26:50]
Rob Mahoney
No one, apparently no one bothered to tell Yaz about that life and future. And I guess the kids, they did technically talk about, but she never really signed on to. Yeah, I think even. Even describing it as Henry, Henry's breakup with Yaz feels generous to Henry about the agency of what happened in that room.
- [27:07]
Jody Walker
I'll tell you what, as a romantic, I could not stop laughing. I truly was laughing during this scene. It was so funny. The back and forth, the earnestness with which they are treating a very inauthentic situation. That has always been an agreement at best. And I believe that Henry believes that he loves Yaz and I believe that Henry does not want to be left because when left by Yaz, the only lap there is for him to sort of crouch down to is his uncles. And that's a low place to be.
- [27:38]
Joyda Robinson
It's not as sexy. It's not sexy, but at least he
- [27:42]
Rob Mahoney
found a lap and. Or a bosom to cry into. It's better than nothing.
- [27:45]
Jody Walker
And Uncle Alexander is so tall. And so it works in a standing way there at the end. It is so funny to me in this show and in so many other shows about rich people doing bad things to listen to their disappointment around not getting the life they thought, like him stuttering over like. But what about, you know, the life we imagine, the kids and then to think about how he's been living his life and it's like in that little fucked up head, you really thought that was still what was coming your way, right? Take it back to the harpsichord, buddy.
- [28:22]
Joyda Robinson
So the Yasmin Harper stuff is to me the show and is the most powerful stuff in this episode. But I think if I were to isolate one scene that I've been thinking about the most, after that it's Lord Mostyn and Henry at lunch where his, his other uncle here is, is sort of telling him, like, hey man, careful what you're doing. Right? Because so. So this idea of Henry as someone who genuinely does want to do good, like this is something that Mickey and Conrad have been saying in interviews is like, Henry actually does believe his own bullshit in terms of like, I want to democratize finance or democratize energy or what are all this other stuff like that. So like, can I, with Jenny, help sort of unravel this large Russian cabal or something like that. And to be met with the harsh reality from his uncle, which. Which was as, as every Recap of the show has. Has made plain an allusion to a real life thing that happened to property developer Scott Young, who. Who was pushed out of a window in much. In much the same way that that Mostyn describes. But did it, did it feel to you guys like Mostin was also threatening him? Like, oh, like, warning him?
- [29:40]
Jody Walker
Yeah, I had the thought warning him,
- [29:42]
Joyda Robinson
but also like, I'm like. Cause if anyone has compromat on them, it's. It's Mostin for sure. Right. And so, like, I feel like to me, lacing to that conversation, I could be reading incorrectly, but it felt like this is a thing that happens, so be careful. But also, I will look the other way if push comes to shove. You're the one getting shoved, not me. And I, I. It felt threatening to me. What did you. What did you think, Jodi? Do you disagree?
- [30:10]
Jody Walker
Well, I think, you know, we hear Henry in this episode giving reminders to Whitney to. To know your place. And you would be mistaken not to. Henry himself also needs those reminders from his elders from time to time. Know your place. Your place as a sir, as a lord, is not to be a disruptor. You know, it is to literally maintain the status quo, even when the status quo is evil, which it is. And we hear Aud in this conversation. He built his Russian shopping mall. He made those inroads. And those inroads are there, and they will lead back to something that isn't good. The threat. I couldn't tell how direct it was supposed to be, but I did feel the whisper of a threat. And I also really loved the very small beat in that conversation where it's like, the stakes could not be higher for Henry. He is potentially going to prison. He is potentially being murdered. Like, it could be anything. He was recently offered a fake beard. And Otto is like, did I ever tell you about my old pal Clovis Wodenhaus? And Henry's like, no, you know, like, you still have to listen to your uncle. Like, you still have to listen to the stories. Cause that's how you uphold the legacy. You know, you listen to what your uncles did before you, and then that's what you do. And look at what he did.
- [31:28]
Joyda Robinson
The institution doesn't suffer, Jodi. You know what I mean? It does not English aristocracy.
- [31:33]
Rob Mahoney
Yeah, Rob, Part of the reason I'm compelled to agree with you, Joe, that this was how explicit the thread is. I think we can try to figure out over time when the show comes back. But, like, he seems very easy with this whole idea in a way. That when you think about Whitney, Whitney was sweating bullets for weeks on weeks on weeks on weeks. And here's Otto just being like, so you might get dangled off a balcony. You might get dropped to your death. Oh, by the way, can I get my wine topped off over here? And the score shifts from, like, gravely serious to we're just having fun at lunch, I think is just, like, one of the funniest parts of this episode. So he is way too comfortable with whatever is happening. And Henry, we should say, wading into counterintelligence, like, bumbling his way through. I mean, it's just not going to go well. So someone needed to warn him off it.
- [32:17]
Joyda Robinson
I absolutely loved the way we leave Henry and his two uncles here at the end of the episode in the fishing boat. Gilbert and Sullivan back on the score, right? He is an English man, which we've talked about a couple times this season. But the way that he is, like, reeling this fish in and seems like very, you know, on back on his medication. And I'm pro being on your med. Your meds, so stay on your meds. But the way that he's just, like, seems so convinced that he's the one reeling the fish in when his two uncles are, like, holding him down and up. And, like, you know, you're, like, in the embrace of the family but also being restrained by the family. And you're. You're a gentleman of leisure doing your leisurely activities, but also the. Your uncles are doing all the work for you. And it was just like. It was just like the perfect, like, helpless, coddled space to leave Henry. And I wouldn't be surprised if we didn't see Henry. I, like, I love Kit Harrington in this role, but, like, this is kind of where I want to leave Henry. I don't need him, like, really much in the mix. What do you think, Jodie?
- [33:22]
Jody Walker
Yeah, it felt like the right close to me because it's kind of like within this season and especially this episode, we see him grappling with his place, and is there something different for him to do here? Can he be more. Can the world need him? And it seems like he settles pretty firmly into no. And not since Lindsay Lohan has there been such an iconic ankle monitor moment. Then that. Then that zoom in on that. So stupid little boat in a pond, probably on their property, full of fish that somebody put there. You know, like, it's so. It's so embarrassing, sort of. And that, I do think, is the way that it's a. It is a perfect end ending I think for that character that had all of the opportunity to grow and took none of it and ended up and did a lot of bad and ended up exactly where he started.
- [34:15]
Joyda Robinson
It's fascinating to me that like, nor, you know, Lord Norton is like, so. So seemingly so central to whatever is gonna go forward and that I'm like, Henry, take or leave, I'll go.
- [34:28]
Jody Walker
I love that because Uncle Alexander is a character that I am like, where does he stand? You know, I mean, he's a girl dad. We've seen him, like, within this show
- [34:39]
Joyda Robinson
on his walks, his long walks with the girl.
- [34:41]
Jody Walker
He has this, like, paternal energy. And he's had these times where it seems like he's tried to save Henry or save Yaz from themselves. And then like, in this convert, in this conversation with Sebastian, he almost like, he. He seems like morally upstanding when you compare it to this neo Nazi. Like, the bars in hell. The bars in hell.
- [35:01]
Joyda Robinson
He's cleared it. Yeah, but you.
- [35:02]
Jody Walker
And he is like a rare case of an established person. You know, he is an old person, not a young person. And so, like, what does that mean for his involvement in this sort of new political class? Like, will he go lower? Will he actually be someone who, like, has a moral backbone? Also his continued relationship to Yasmin, who I guess now runs his comms. I mean, she's gonna make it on the Forbes 30 under 30 for these, you know, this movement through the comms game.
- [35:32]
Rob Mahoney
Oh, she's a connector, for sure.
- [35:34]
Jody Walker
And also her criminal activity.
- [35:36]
Rob Mahoney
Well, yeah, that's gonna get her on many a list. Yeah. I love the idea of Alexander as that stand in for the establishment, more so than Henry going forward, just. Cause Henry is not about this life and up to these challenges in, you know, like, if someone is going to stand up to Sebastian Stefanovich, it's not gonna be Henry. And I like that we see a moment from Jennifer Bevan in this episode, like, getting to make her speech to some applause, getting to kind of defend herself, and these, like, very projected, constructed ideals in a lot of ways, based on the reality of what happened. But she's a character who. I'm already wondering, like, how. How up for this fight is she going to be in terms of what the future politics of industry holds?
- [36:13]
Joyda Robinson
Yeah. Fascinating, I will say, in terms of the way in which industry has ended these last two seasons when they weren't sure they were going to get another season. I'm not looking to an ending where Sebastian and Yaz get their comeuppance. I don't know that this is a show or a moral universe, really. They're showing us our own universe. And Ghislaine Maxwell isn't really suffering, you know, for her crimes that much. And nor is anyone who's been outed on the Epstein list. So, like, I don't know. I don't think this show is going to. I was like, romantically rooting for Harper and Yaz ever reconciliation. Not like this, guys. Not like this. But like, I was rooting for it, but now I'm just sort of like, I don't. I guess the best I feel like I can hope for is Harper taking that sort of Gus Robb, like, train out of this entire universe and heading off to the green pastures that are Silicon Valley. I don't know. What do you think, Jodie?
- [37:19]
Jody Walker
My feeling in seeing Yasmine join forces with Sebastian is kind of like a further step into what she hoped for with Henry. Like, not romantically necessarily, but we saw with Henry that even though he's dead ass wrong, he is someone who believes that he. That he wants the good things that he wants. You know, like he. He is someone who sort of has good intentions. And for Yasmin, who is this person who really does seem to, like, live in the black and white, the good and evil, she is now finding herself in the midst of people who actually fully believe in the evil things that they think. Like, she is not someone who believes. Believes in the things that she thinks. You know, she is not a convicted person. And she's always sort of. She might be. I think that's the interesting thing is like, I mean, awful, but interesting is she is always attaching herself to people who have conviction, whether it's Harper or Henry or Sebastian. And this like, what you see in Sebastian, the line where he is where she's sort of teasing about her divorce and he says he doesn't believe in divorce, and she's kind of like, oh, what do you think it's an affront to God. And he's like, yes, I think it's an affront to God. I think she is sort of non sexually aroused by that kind of conviction. And like, what might my life be like if I thought things so intensely bad?
- [38:55]
Joyda Robinson
Well, she's sober now, Jody. You know what I mean?
- [38:57]
Jody Walker
Yeah. And she's sober and for fun, you know, like, it's just for fun.
- [39:01]
Joyda Robinson
She's like, clarity.
- [39:04]
Jody Walker
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- [40:40]
Joyda Robinson
Rob, how did you what did you think of the way that Eric is used in this episode? Right, we get both Harper trying to call him when Stern no longer tao make their payday and then we get the Yasmine using the footage of him to sort of score some points on Harper here or make her point about the way in which the world works. What did you think of sort of his ghost haunting this episode?
- [41:07]
Rob Mahoney
I mean, it makes sense to tie up some of these loose ends especially rather than have them just hang over the future of the show. I think one of the worst things for industry would be for people to just be speculating. Will Harper ever see the tape or figure out the truth about Eric? Like it makes sense to just like get that out of the open and then deal with all of the consequences that come with it. Do I believe that Yaz, even as somebody who is willing to tell herself anything to justify her own behavior, would play this tape as she is literally pimping out the same underage girl in the very room in which it's happening while still claiming to be the necessary and good person? Like I think that was part of what I bumped on and so like I get the mechanism but I did not get Yaz's deployment at that time.
- [41:48]
Joyda Robinson
Isn't the story that she's spinning here A, that Eric knew she was underage, which he didn't. The creators have confirmed that Eric didn't. Right.
- [41:56]
Rob Mahoney
So, like, yes, she is that.
- [41:58]
Joyda Robinson
Which is either something that she's been lied to about or she is lying to Harper about. And then B, sort of says that she's not under. Girls lie about their age. She's not underage. But again, is that something that she's been lied to about or is it true? Or is it. You know, I'm unclear on where the lie is inside of all of that. I don't know that it matters at the end of the day, because Yaz has just like constructed a web where she can justify anything, any decision she makes and any decision that anyone else makes is like this sort of warped form of female empowerment. So it's just. I know, Jodi, I really agree. This is the best face you've ever made. And I.
- [42:36]
Jody Walker
Really, really painful.
- [42:38]
Joyda Robinson
Yeah. What do you think, Jenny?
- [42:40]
Jody Walker
Oh, yeah. I mean, I guess my, My, my quite literal take was that either what Yasmin believes or what she is saying is that Dolly, right, is. Is the little cousin, is a young woman who acts like she is underage, but she is not. So that, like pretend.
- [43:00]
Joyda Robinson
So that guys who want to be with a 15 year old can feel like they're with a 15 year old.
- [43:04]
Jody Walker
And telling Harper that Eric believed her to be underage or sort of, yes, was complicit in her acting like she was underage or something. Which I think that the show says pretty well in the, you know, reveal of the video to Eric when he gets it in his email that he seems pretty shocked by that. So I didn't. But yeah, that. I mean, the, the continued sort of details around this character that are. That is, you know, in. Either. In no matter what the. What conclusions we draw could, I think, conceivably be called a girl. Like, could conceivably be called a very young woman. No matter what. Yasmin knows what she's tied up in. You know, like, she. She knows that these girls could be lying to her about their age. She knows that these dudes whose laps they're sitting on don't give a shit about their age or do in the wrong way. And also, like, yeah, okay, a party does need gender balance, but when all the women are sitting on laps, it actually takes away a lot of that balance. And it's like not super fun when all of the Women are sitting on men's laps at parties.
- [44:11]
Joyda Robinson
This is your hottest takeover, Jodi, and I applaud you for your.
- [44:15]
Jody Walker
Just a classic lap sitting party. I love to. I love to walk into a living room and see every woman on a lap.
- [44:22]
Joyda Robinson
Better than a sausage festival, I guess, is the lap party, I guess on the dolly front, I did want to note. So what I think is interesting about the way that Eric's used in this episode. Yeah, this has been a season of Ghost Dads. We've got ghost dads haunting all over the place. We get this footage of Eric in this episode. Then we get the recording of Charles, you know, that Yaz plays for herself again at the end of the episode. So, like these digital remnants of these, of these father figures inside here. And then, like, I was reminded of. And I promise I wouldn't bring it up, but it's been many episodes since I have. But Roman Roy playing this, like, memeified video of Logan Roy after his death over and over again. It's talking about how Roman Roy has like a micro penis. Like, it's this, like, weirdly edited, like, video footage of his father, but he watches it over and over again. So obviously that's something I was thinking about. But also what Charles says in the voicemail, a couple things. First of all, this idea that bring a friend of yours. So she brought Harper into this thing that she knows this world where her father likes to parade young women around either for his own disgusting joy or the men that he entertains, et cetera. He originator of the lap party. Well, no, he did not originate. Originate the left party. But anyway, like, that's. That's what she's invited a main proprietor. At least that's what she's invited Harper to, you know, in. In the previous season. And then also he. He calls Yasmina, right? Which he has before, but that's his, like, diminutive for her. And he calls her light of my life, right? And this is the opening of. Of the novel Lolita, right? Lolita, light of my life. Fire of my loins, my sin, my soul. And then further down that paragraph about Lolita where he talks about all her different names. He says she was Dolly at school. Dolores on the dotted lines. This idea of like the Dolly character that we've seen this season is part of this, like, you know, this chain of, you know, that involves Yasmin down to her, all of it wrapped up in the most iconic. I mean, Mickey and Conrad love a literary illusion, like, story of pedophilia. But I just. I was so ill watching Yaz listen to that recording over and over again. Jodi, what. What did. Did you think?
- [46:44]
Jody Walker
Yeah, it's awful. The. It's a. It's. It's a horror movie, you know, to. To watch her. And it reminds me of. Of last season when the doors closed behind her, when the. The young woman on the boat that she saw having sex with her father that she then hires, then fires. It's a lot of, you know, sit down, shut the door. Like, it's a lot of closing doors. And when she tells now this young woman that she is bringing to the lap party to close the door behind her so she can have a moment so she can listen to these voicemails from her father over and over. I love what seemed to me to be a sort of audio shift of, like, hearing. Listening to the voicemail and then seeming to hear it sort of rattle around in her head. Like there was this shift in the audio as she lays down on the carpet. And it felt like she was, like, conditioning herself to no longer hate her father, but, like, fulfill his role in the world. And that's really awful. That was really bad.
- [47:48]
Joyda Robinson
Yeah.
- [47:49]
Rob Mahoney
It felt like an extension of the conversations he's having with Harper about, like, how the only people who could survive are people who've been hardened by their experience. Right. And so it's like, to me, she's very much playing that in that conditioning capacity you're talking about, Jodi, of, like, I have to remind myself of how horrible the world is in order to play a part in it whatsoever. It's horrendous to watch, like, this was, I thought, the most effective piece of the episode by far, just, like, watching this segment of it on screen and trying to live with the realities of it. And I also think, like, weird enough for Yaz's journey, so much of this season has been her building up to being in a position to tell Hailey when she closes the door for her, oh, you can have the day off and not giving the, like, oh, you
- [48:33]
Joyda Robinson
can't tell me that I'm not your boss. Yeah, yeah.
- [48:35]
Rob Mahoney
She finally is her boss like she is daddy once and for all.
- [48:39]
Jody Walker
Yeah, I'd be at dinner at 8, and Hermes is expecting you.
- [48:42]
Rob Mahoney
Exactly. And so, like, she is getting a version of a thing that she wants, and this is the cost for it, is that in order to gear herself up mentally to participate in this, she's got to listen to this tape on repeat.
- [48:53]
Joyda Robinson
Apparently, the way that she's restyled herself as Hanani Right. Like her father's name. In the Gullen Maxwell documentaries that I watched, there was this, like, really disturbing interview that she gave on a park bench in Central Park. Weird place for an interview in 1992. But anyway, she's talking about her father and the interviewer's like, hey, you know, there's so much scandal. Your father's died. There's so much scandal around your name. You've moved to New York, you've reinvented yourself. You know, did you think about changing your name to like, get away from the Maxwell name? And she was like, no, I love my name. I was born with my name. I'm proud of my name and I'll have it forever. And so the way that Yasmin's like, leaning away from Lady Muck and back into not even the double barrel version of her name, but just Hanani, just her father's name, like, is very disturbing. Also, I really love is not the word admire. The way that this season is bookended by this dinner party that she throws with, like, Jenny at the beginning of the season and then this Sebastian dinner party at the end of the season. And again, this is like a very Glenn Maxwell coded, but also has always just been Yaz's. Like, I think Jenny brought this up really beautifully earlier this season. Connector of people, like a throw of events and a connector of people. But that line that she has in episode two, and she's like arguing with Henry and she's like, like, don't be dumb. I've never voted. Like, the fact that she went from like, labor, earnest labor, Jenny to like, you know, neo Nazi Seb inside of this, the space of a season. Because it does not matter what they believe. She does not give a shit what they believe. Their power is what she craves and the proximity to power and the COVID it can give her, which again, and this is actually just genuinely the last time I'll say it reminds me of like Roman Roy's whole storyline with Justin Kirk's character at the end of succession, right? Where he's just sort of like cozying up to Nazism. Because, like, for Roman, it's like, it's fun and it's chaotic and it's this whole other thing. But, like, because he doesn't have to think about, and he doesn't care to think about the actual consequences of what this kind of ideology's rise to power could mean for people in the world because he's insulated from actual repercussions, is very much what Yaz is dealing with. Here, because she's like, it doesn't matter. Like, this is. This is. She's spouting the party line. She's ahead of comms here. Like, but at the end of the day, she's not thinking about the impact it will have, down to not really processing what it would mean to put Harper next to literal Nazis at the dinner table. And her reaction to that, where she was just sort of like a little bit sorry, but a little bit. Not at the same time, a little bit embarrassed.
- [51:31]
Jody Walker
Well, it's like, oh, my gosh, I'm. I'm sorry. I really wasn't thinking. I didn't know there would be Nazis here, but I did not mean to sit you by then. Like, that actually is an affront to her upbringing. You know, like, as someone who makes
- [51:42]
Joyda Robinson
tablecard setting, definitely did the table setting. So, like, more like I didn't think about the fact that you're like, a black woman here in this context or what that meant. And I guess my bigger question for you, Jodi, is like, why do you think Yaz invited Harper to this party, this event, this dinner?
- [52:02]
Jody Walker
Well, it was interesting that you noted that. That Yasmin, when we hear the. Her father's voicemail, that, like, he' bring a friend to the boat and she brings Harper because she's not allowed to bring men. But that's about as close to a man as she can get in terms of, like, social, like, how she behaves socially. Harper's not going to sit on a lap. You know, Like, I think that that was some form of. Of bringing protection. And I think in that way, she also, she desperately wants Harper to see her succeed. And she sees what she's doing now as successful succeeding. You know, she's comms for a fascist and working for Uncle Alexander, and she's like, this is success. Look at me. I finally have power. See this power? You're powerful, too. And that's why I say, like, I don't love this. I don't love this conclusion. But there is a part of me that wonders, like, would Yasmin have ever gone to these links if she hadn't met Harper? A woman who is so powerful and who doesn't care about structures and who moves her way through the world without class and standing. I think that has driven Yasmin to want to be more successful, to want more out of the world. And we've watched her fail time and time again, but now she feels like she's gotten somewhere. I don't think she thinks Harper's gonna donate to this. But I think she wants Harper to see her there, which is yet another classic Yaz, like, yet another mistake. You didn't think this all the way through. You sat her next to Nazis.
- [53:36]
Joyda Robinson
You yazzed it. Yazzed it.
- [53:39]
Rob Mahoney
Yeah, I don't think it even occurred to her. And Jodi, I'm so bought in on what you're saying as far as, like, Harper is a motivating factor for Yaz in so many different ways. And I think some of that is like, even Yaz's aspirations here, her aspiration is not to be necessary, it's to. To feel necessary. Right. Like she wants to feel important, I think, more than she wants to be important. And so in a world where she and Harper never meet, I think she flames out of pure point, much like she did in the Harper reality. But after that, like, who's to say in which direction she would spin off or to what ends, or whether she'd be somebody who is chasing after something versus just somebody who is comfortably social because she, like, she had those avenues available to her. And I think part of what makes her as competitive as she is within the world of industry is like seeing Harper go after something so, so wholeheartedly over and over and over and pursue it so doggedly. It brings out something in Yaz, but like, I think they bring out a lot of the worst qualities in each other a lot of the time, frankly. But I'm also not qualified to speak on this, as we've discovered time and time again.
- [54:38]
Jody Walker
But it does make me wonder on the other side of it is like, this is when we finally see Harper drawing the line with Yasmin. She's like, oh, oh, no. Like, you got an underage. What, like, what's going on? And what does that create in Yasmin, in Harper moving into the next season? Like, is she going to see it?
- [54:54]
Joyda Robinson
I'm fascinated by this idea of like, does Yasmin want someone to stop her here or does she, you know, because she's offered the hand, right? So like Harper offers it to her. Like in bringing someone who can see you so well and know you so well. I feel like oftentimes people when they're in like a self destructive spiral, they bring that person in because they want someone to tell them, no one to tell them to stop. But Harper does that. And Yaz does not take the proffered hand, at least in the more meaningful way that Harper is offering it here. I think that's interesting. And then to like, wrap up, to think about Season five. I just want to read you a couple quotes that Mickey and Conrad gave to this great GQ interview that they did in talking about season five. They said, I feel like the show can't get any smaller because a smaller thing would be a backwards thing. So it feels like, if anything, which just needs to grow until it tumbles under its own weight. And then they said, talking about Harper and Yaz, by the time they get to the end of season five, we want the image, what they become in season five to be so stark versus season one. And as they ascend and descend and go deeper into the rabbit hole of whatever they're chasing, Yasmine and Harper can provide a kind of baseline litmus test for each other. Where are we? Who are we? Because they know each other, because they've been within the same system. So in a way, there's a kind of weird spiritual checking in that they're kind of bound to do because they're each other's sort of perverted mirror. So thinking about that, thinking about the Yaz Harper perverted mirror, thinking about the. Like, clearly deeper into the political realm that this show seems to want to go. Seeding Edward Holdcroft's character, Sebastian, into, like, what we all feel like, we agree is probably going to be, like, a main character in the final season. Like, what do you want from Industry's final season, and what are you expecting, Rob Mooney?
- [56:42]
Rob Mahoney
I want a version of what we got this season, and we saw that industry can do so well, which is introduce us to whole new corners and whole new characters that we're not as familiar with and make them feel like they're a part of the world of the show, because all of this shit is connected on a deep and fundamental level. And so, yeah, we're seeding characters here, but I'm sure we're gonna get entirely new political operators or Russian operatives or kind of whoever it is that we end up meeting in season five. And that is why I love this show. And I think part of some of the things that I'm bumping on in this finale, in this season are outgrowths of the ambition of what Industry is trying to be like it is trying to. It is a show that loves to reinvent itself, that it grows so much so fast and demands transformation. And, like, not every transformation is gonna work for every single viewer. And there's some in. In this season that didn't work for me, but I love what it reaches for. And I'm in particular charmed by the idea of a show that never rests on its laurels, that never says, like, oh, we can just go back to the formula that wants that comparison point for Yassin Harper of, look how dramatically different these people are from when you met them. And Lord knows where they're gonna be at the end of season five. And that is what I love about industry.
- [57:53]
Joyda Robinson
Jody.
- [57:54]
Jody Walker
Yeah, I think I just want to say, see those expansions of the world and those bringing in of, like, new industries and new infrastructures that create this sort of, like, shadowy existence of some of these characters. I just want them to make sense for Harper and Yaz, because these are. These are our. These are our people. And I can't believe how much I've thought about America's Next Top Model while watching this season. But it came up again this season, this. This episode, when Harper comes back from the horrible party and tells Kwabana, I feel like all the people I thought were constants in my life have all become something that I didn't know they were or disappeared altogether. And we've talked about this sort of like, that the original industry poster is like one of those ANTM graphics where the people filter out. And I think what I thought of is those people were dying or moving, but they're kind of people dropping out of Harper's life as she sort of really more stays the path of finance, you know, like, she really has not gone out into these other worlds, and I don't necessarily want her to, but I think in Yasmin, especially by the end of this season, we have really seen it's made sense to bring in these other worlds because of how they have affected Yasmin's character and even, like, within this season. And we saw her go from, like, looking around and being horrified by the Hitler art in the room she was staying in, to getting on board with Sebastian, this politician, to literally seating Harper next to Nazis. Like, we've seen these things make sense. I want to see them make sense for Harper, because I think while they haven't, Harper's ultimately taken a backseat, you know, like, she's been a bit of an npc. And I think we are past the point of that. Being able to be her character of, like, this sort of deadness, being able to be her character, it's like, we gotta lean in or out.
- [59:49]
Joyda Robinson
I thought it was interesting that Kwabana in, like, one of talking about, like, breakup scenes or whatever, him coming in and being like, I kissed someone. I don't feel bad about it, blah, blah, blah, while she's, like, spiraling out from the actual heartbreak of Yasmin. And she's like, I don't really care about. He's like, this is a big let's have a who are we to each other conversation. While, like is like, playing in her head about. About Yasmin in the background. But, yeah, I think Harper being, you know, McCain Conrad described her as sort of like a final girl in a horror movie inside of this episode, right when she finds herself at this dinner table. And so I think her really being the center of the final season feels really important to me as well. Like. Cause she took, like, a real hard step back in season three, and she was just like, more present this season, but I would just like, like her to be re. Centralized entirely in the final season. Last Mad Men comp. I'm gonna make. As we wrap up here, we get Sweet Pea and Kwabina and Harper. Clearly a season five finale, Mad Men comp. When they're in the empty office space thinking about their future there. But then we also get this stewardess in the same episode, that season five finale of Mad Men, this woman comes up to Don Draper at the bar, and she's like, are you alone? Which is how the episode. Episode ends. And we get this, like, you know, are we done? Sort of moment here at the end of the episode, which also made me think, Rob, don't shake your head. Which also made me think, did we have to.
- [61:19]
Rob Mahoney
Do we have to do? Are we done?
- [61:21]
Joyda Robinson
It reminded me of that episode of angel when, like, Doyle's leaving. He's like, is that it? Am I done? So I was thinking about angel, but I was thinking about Mad Men. And I. I agree that it's very on the nose. Like, it's very.
- [61:34]
Rob Mahoney
It's tough.
- [61:35]
Joyda Robinson
It's.
- [61:35]
Rob Mahoney
It's like. It's the fact that she says it, like, three times. She's like, are you finished? No. Your drink? No. Are you done? Are you sure you're done? Like, with this season, metaphorically, and maybe
- [61:44]
Jody Walker
the show focus on the uptake with emotions. Rob. I didn't mind her problem.
- [61:48]
Joyda Robinson
It's a problem. It works for me.
- [61:49]
Jody Walker
It worked.
- [61:49]
Joyda Robinson
I didn't mind it. I didn't mind it. It's very like walking around the deserted floor of Pure Point at the end of season three. This is like how they like the end of season.
- [61:58]
Rob Mahoney
It's true.
- [61:58]
Joyda Robinson
I was into it. All right, we are pretty much out of time. Jodi, any last things you want to say about this season of television?
- [62:06]
Jody Walker
I can't believe this is the end. It cruised by on a very bumpy ship, on a very bumpy cruise. This went so quickly. As always, at the end of an industry season, I'm just sad to not be talking about it anymore. It's like, for any of its faults, it's so good to have a show that you just really want to talk about that requires the further conversation. And I think that season four really did that. And, you know, I don't want to hit the, like, are you finished? Are you done here for Rob? But it's nice to know. It really is. I like going into season five, like, knowing that's the end, you know, I like.
- [62:45]
Joyda Robinson
I agree.
- [62:46]
Jody Walker
I can't wait. I can't wait to see what they're gonna do.
- [62:49]
Joyda Robinson
I love when people know that they're done with the show and they just throw everything at the wall. Rob, anything else you want to say about industry before we go?
- [62:56]
Rob Mahoney
Just to echo Jodie's thoughts. I mean, an incredibly fun season to talk about ups and downs. And Jodie, thank you for sharing your beat with us. I know we're encroaching on your terms.
- [63:04]
Joyda Robinson
I was gonna say thanks for joining us.
- [63:06]
Jody Walker
You know, it's so, it's so great to be the one in the power position here and to, and to. And to have you guys here. I loved sharing it with you. I loved, I love this show. Please, please have me back. I'll, I'll, I'll come back for anything.
- [63:21]
Rob Mahoney
Oh, no. Have us back, Jodie.
- [63:23]
Jody Walker
I'm very Yasmin in that way. We finally come. We've finally figured it out. I am the Yasmin of this podcast.
- [63:30]
Joyda Robinson
Is this the episode where you want to declare that that's an interesting moment.
- [63:33]
Jody Walker
Take it back. I take it back.
- [63:35]
Joyda Robinson
Thanks to Devin Ronaldo for their work on this entire season of the podcast. And Rob and I will be back to talk about the Pit. And Jody, hopefully we'll see you soon. And bye.
- [63:57]
Rob Mahoney
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- [64:15]
Joyda Robinson
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