Rob Mahoney (2:36)

It was beautiful.

Joanna Robinson (2:36)

I learned it from you.

Jodie Walker (2:38)

I was like, I mean, that is the episode to me. What a line and what an encapsulation of these people just chasing power and hoping to enshrine it. Chasing enshrinement and hoping to find power within it like that. You know, I will say the episode felt episode three. It felt like kind of a Lot of setup. To me, I wouldn't say that it was my favorite episode, but when I. At the time of watching it. But when I look back on it now following episode four, I'm like, oh, what a fun and innocent time that was for us. Episode three. I think that episode four has basically undone any rest and relaxation I got from my vacation. And I'm horrified and thrilled to be here.

Joanna Robinson (3:31)

Journalism is dead. So is Jim. It's very sad.

Jodie Walker (3:35)

So is Jodie.

Joanna Robinson (3:38)

This episode was written by Mickey down and Conrad Kay. Ever heard of them? And directed by Michelle Seville or Saville. And there is a cameo from Emilia de Meldenborg. And there sure is. Did you guys see what her character name was?

Rob Mahoney (3:53)

You know, we did, Joe.

Joanna Robinson (3:55)

Well, I know that Rob did. Rob loves the detail. Rob, would you like to share what Emelia. For folks who don't know who Amelia is and what her character's name is. Rob.

Rob Mahoney (4:03)

So Amelia de Mouldenburg, best known for successfully flirting with every guest to appear on Chicken Shop Date.

Joanna Robinson (4:10)

Correct.

Rob Mahoney (4:11)

Just impeccable. Just one. One of our great flirts. And her character's name, as she appears randomly as a journalist in this episode at a, you know, a press scrum. Her character's name is Vivian Poulet Magazon, which of course means Vivian Chicken Shop.

Joanna Robinson (4:25)

Yeah. I mean, just.

Jodie Walker (4:26)

Won't they do it? Won't they do it?

Joanna Robinson (4:28)

Really, really good stuff. She was great.

Jodie Walker (4:31)

Yeah. Like, you know, she had one line, and I really bought it, but she.

Rob Mahoney (4:36)

Did take me out of it because it's like, how can you. If you know her, how can you not be jarred awake in that moment?

Jodie Walker (4:43)

Well, I don't know. To me, she did kind of fit into the world. And, like, I felt like she and Sweet Pea could be sisters, and they're like a whole different spinoff happening here between these gals. It was so. It was. These are. Those basically are my two favorite pieces of British culture. So it was fun to see them together.

Joanna Robinson (5:04)

So you're saying send Emelia to Achero. Like, why not? Get her on the planet.

Rob Mahoney (5:08)

Oh, my God.

Joanna Robinson (5:08)

Okay, I agree.

Jodie Walker (5:10)

Get her knocking on doors.

Rob Mahoney (5:11)

Yeah, maybe that is like the backdoor pilot of this episode. You're right, Jodie. Even episode four is a lot of setup, it turns out.

Joanna Robinson (5:18)

Yeah, we got a lot of feedback from listeners about, you know, speaking of favorite pieces of British culture, we are constantly. Or I am constantly, as an American, saying, please. You know, I just found out before we started recording. Jodi has studied abroad in the uk, so she is much more Seasoned than I am in the culture.

Jodie Walker (5:35)

Jody is an adult woman talking about her study abroad experience offline.

Rob Mahoney (5:41)

I'm just glad it wasn't in Barcelona, you know, Barcelona.

Jodie Walker (5:44)

I took a trip to Ibiza.

Joanna Robinson (5:46)

Ibiza. So, you know, I'm doing my best as an American fumbling around in the dark. But I did ask a question about what newspaper we think it is that is printing these, like, Nazi op EDS and smear campaigns on Jim Diker, et cetera, et cetera. We got a wide range of answers. So it turns out no consensus, really, from the UK listeners on whether this is the Telegraph or the Times or the Daily Mail. There was like a really compelling this is the Daily Mail or. Or the sun. And that's like a wide range of publications. So keep emailing us. Jodi, where can folks reach us if they want to?

Jodie Walker (6:20)

Oh, they can reach us over@harpsichordstraponmail.com sure can. Is that right?

Rob Mahoney (6:25)

Yeah, they really can.

Jodie Walker (6:27)

I'm glad you have heard that someone, because my mind had always kind of been in the Daily Mail cord as one of the papers of record for me and my kind. And I think because of maybe some of more of the stuff from last season or where there was so much, like, commenting happening and like, so much paparazzi of Yaz and like, it just didn't. And it would make sense to me that the people behind it would see it as like a great old media publication and the people reading it would see it as otherwise.

Rob Mahoney (7:00)

Well, paparazzi is a noble calling, as we know that is holding power to account the only way that we know how to do it.

Joanna Robinson (7:07)

We did, however, get a pretty good consensus from listeners on the political sort of figures that we've been meeting this season. So I just wanted to do a very handy rundown we got from our listener, Shane, because I was asking about Ricky Martin with a Y, who we met. I was, like, really interested in this particular figure. We got a pretty good consensus on who that was. Shane sort of built upon that with a couple other characters. So I thought I would just run this down. So Ricky Martin with a Y, who we saw swan into this meeting that he was not invited to and just, like, throw his dick and a newspaper on the table and just sort of like, run the meeting from. From his chair. This is Morgan McSweeney, the Prime Minister's current chief of staff. According to Shane, basically exiled all traces of Jeremy Corbyn's leadership of labor and has a political perspective generally hostile to the left and seems to socially court voters who are Nigel Farage. So I poked around, could not find a good thing said about this guy, Morgan McSweeney. So this is the power behind the throne. The idea being that, like the Prime Minister, Keir Starmer is like a very inexperienced politician and Morgan, even though he's not elected at all, is sort of running things behind the scenes to a certain degree. And that was very much the impression that was given in that scene. Any thoughts on that before I move on to the two ladies who are also in that meeting?

Rob Mahoney (8:27)

Well, with our deep awareness of British politics, I think we can only concur.

Joanna Robinson (8:31)

Okay.

Jodie Walker (8:32)

Do you concur? Yeah. Thank you for telling everyone what we already knew. And I would say you couldn't find a single thing about him but Morgan McSweeney, like Ricky Martin. Pretty strong name.

Joanna Robinson (8:42)

Oh, great name.

Jodie Walker (8:43)

A strong name to walk into a conference room and announce yourself. First and last name.

Rob Mahoney (8:48)

Absolutely empower me.

Joanna Robinson (8:50)

All right, so Jenny Bevan, who we've met a number of times over the last few seasons. Shabana Mahmoud is the comp here, the current Home Secretary, often the third most powerful person in UK politics. I don't think she's not home Secretary, so she's not that high up.

Rob Mahoney (9:06)

But she's a little more junior for sure.

Joanna Robinson (9:09)

Is a favorite of McSweeney. Some definitely see her as future prime minister material, partly because she is political politics aligned with more powerful interests has delivered increasingly anti migrant rhetoric in recent months. Her politics can largely be described as, quote, blue labor. Bevan may also have a few traces of Bridget Phillipson, Education Secretary, so. And last but not least, Lisa Dern, who shows up again in this episode deeply against her will. The comp here is Angela Raynor. Rayner is seen as soft left of the party, has a working class upbringing and is often comfortable presenting herself in such a way. Often demeaned as a, quote, troublesome mouthy woman by the establishment, isn't shy standing up for herself, especially against those of more affluent means, potential future leader. But the likes of McSweeney are desperate to prevent that from happening. So a McSweeney, Morgan McSweeney versus Angela Rayner and a Lisa Dern versus Ricky Martin with a Y with a Jenny Bevan as sort of a pawn in the middle of this power struggle. Is like an interesting dynamic being set up here. Last but not least, Shane said, I think it's notable that the prime minister is conspicuous by his absence in this show. So far. It appears that if you've been paying attention to UK politics, it's not difficult to see where season four of industry is going. I don't know what that means because I don't want any spoilers, I guess, for where this is going. But I did look up Keir Starmer's approval rating, -57, currently in the UK and. And there's a lot of concerned op eds about the rise of Nigel Farage. So the fact that we saw an actor I like, Edward Holcroft, playing, you know, a backbench minister from Farage's party sort of in episode one, we could be seeing, like, a swing from labor to, you know, Faragism, if we prefer that, which we don't personally on this podcast. But, you know.

Rob Mahoney (11:04)

Yeah, we really don't. Yeah. As soon as you said the word like Farage curious earlier, it sent a chill down my spine. So. But look, it fits all the ways, even we Americans.

Jodie Walker (11:12)

No, this is what I love about industry, though, is for the. Was it Shane who wrote that email? Like, for Shane, he's like, you know, if you know what you're looking for, then you see where season four is going. And I, of course, do not. And, like, you can really watch the show in so many ways. And when I still run into people who are like, I just, you know, I tried to watch industry, but I didn't know what was going on. And the real. The real thing you have to do is just get comfortable with that. If you happen to know what's going on, then that might enhance your view, but if you don't, you'll never know if it would. You're just gonna have a good and scary time.

Rob Mahoney (11:51)

I think you will, too. And especially if what scared you off early is the finance element of the show, which we're not moving away, but maybe generalizing and adding in, like, a bunch of corporate espionage. Like, I feel like the world of industry has balanced out in so many weird opposing forces that you almost need to be less scared than ever about getting too bogged down in the jargon of one particular area because you're going to be swimming in and across the board, and it's going to be fine.

Jodie Walker (12:18)

There are going to be so many things that you don't understand, and that's part of it.

Joanna Robinson (12:22)

Is one of them Yaz's relationship to shoulder pads Jodi, or how do you.

Jodie Walker (12:26)

Oh, no, I actually deeply understand that. And what I would call it is Yaz's relationship to Simi sheer turtlenecks, which is also something that I'm a big fan of. And I really think she was wearing my preferred brand Marcel in New York City. And so I felt really connected to her in this episode.

Joanna Robinson (12:42)

I was so confident that you would come through for me on this one and I really appreciate you.

Rob Mahoney (12:46)

I'm trying to figure out if it's a flex or not a flex to be like, I identify with not only Yes's style, but the very specific retailer and brand in which she. She would purchase from herself, like, and.

Jodie Walker (12:57)

The precise reason that she's wearing them, which is that she's trying to be taken seriously.

Rob Mahoney (13:03)

As we all are voices on a podcast.

Jodie Walker (13:05)

But it's still gonna be Simi Sheer.

Joanna Robinson (13:08)

So to sort of push back on Shane's point, I will say, though, it's clear that Mickey and Conrad are taking countless real life inspirations. And I did want to ask you, Jodi, were you aware of the Ghislaine Maxwell connection to Yaz previous? I missed it entirely.

Jodie Walker (13:25)

So no, I wasn't. And I was so glad to hear you talk about it and that you had done the research because I think that obviously that feeling of that character was really starting to come out in the last episode and much more so now. And it's really taking that hard pivot into, like, I was a girl and now I'm a woman and look at all the bad I can do here with Yaz. But I did not know about some of those, like, very specific details that obviously make it so intentional, like her father's death on a yacht, et cetera.

Joanna Robinson (14:02)

Yeah, okay. So I think. But what I think is happening here is, though we are taking very clear world. World inspos. I'm not convinced that the outcome will be the same because I think they're like, they're building on this bedrock and then they're taking it into a what if space. And the best example of that is with Jim Diker here, because reading our pal Katie Baker's recap on the Ringer, reading the Bloomberg recap, they were all talking about the Same journalist, Dan McCrum, who took down Wirecard in 2020, and how he's like a clear comp for Jim. But Dan is alive and well. Right? He did not take Fentanyl lace blow from someone obviously trying to kill him. But the comps are there. Like, this is a quote that Dan gave to Global Investigation Journalism network in like 2020, I think, or something like that. He says, we realized one Wirecard executive was connected to Russian spies and there were personal safety concerns. So I wouldn't stand on the edge of a tube train platform precaut. We realized at one point, there was a team of 30 private detectives running around London trying to capture evidence of us talking to our sources, looking for evidence of us supposedly colluding with short sellers. We wouldn't talk about the story with our phones in the room, going to meet sources. I do things like duck into a tube station and run out the other side to shake any tails. So Dan went through this. Went. Went about this a bit more responsibly, I guess, or cloak and daggerly than Jim managed. Poor Jim managed to. But like, that's the comp, but the outcome's different. So just because there was a great sort of downfall of Wirecard, will there be a great downfall of Tinder? Just because we kind of know who these political comps are? Is that how the political landscape's gonna go on this show? You know, like, they don't have to follow exactly the comps that they're drawing from? You know what I mean?

Rob Mahoney (15:50)

Well, especially when you create a character in the mold like Jim. But Jim himself is like so much more of an amateur in terms of his investigation, right? Like, he's so concerned and yet he's talking to Harper on the phone and being seen with her in public, but also using an air gapped computer because God forbid anyone finds out. Anyone he's talking to.

Jodie Walker (16:09)

Well, and his ethics are all over the place. I mean, I think. And this could be the, you know, naivety of telling ourselves stories in order to live. But like, in the real world, those comps, they kind of have a good guy and a bad guy. And like in the show that we're watching, sometimes the bad guy has a comp and then what's on the other side of it is just another bad guy. Like. And so, you know, in the, in the sort of real world comp of the journalists, like, as far as we know, his. His ethics were sound in what he was reporting, what he was doing, and here we don't have that. And like, with, you know, I don't know, it's just this, this episode was. It was really good and it was really hard to watch. Like these, this was, this was a lot of the people that we know being in like their most monstrous elements. It felt like there was no reprieve. I mean, the reprieve was almost like Harper and Sweet Pea doing corporate espionage.

Joanna Robinson (17:17)

Yeah, right.

Rob Mahoney (17:19)

I do feel like the show, though. I feel like this is part of why, to me, it's as consistently great as it's ever been. Jodi, I know you were saying last week felt like a little bit More of a setup episode for you. I think we're just in such a zone of constant anxiety attack, deep character study, all of these broadening elements with the espionage and journalism parts of this story. Something about industry is just working for me better than it ever has before. And certainly the performances have always been great. The writing has always been sharp. I feel like we're just getting somewhere new with this show that I wasn't even sure it would be able to get to.

Joanna Robinson (17:54)

What's the new that you're seeing?

Rob Mahoney (17:56)

I think it's just the culmination of those elements. And to Jody's point, about the ways in which every player on the board is fucked up, and yet because of their circumstances, you're forced to confront who you want to win and why.

Joanna Robinson (18:08)

Right.

Rob Mahoney (18:09)

Like, if there is a great takedown of Tender, we even get kind of that, like, Called the Line is called out pretty directly in this episode in terms of Stern Tao's. Like, their own investigative practices have gone very clearly from gray to black. Like, there's no, like, we're living in the ambiguity of this moment anymore. They are manipulating the market for gain. And so if. If Tender, a clearly busted and fraudulent company that's doing God knows what, frankly, as far as, like, what they're leveraging in Accra, to what effect, if they go down, lots of people win who probably shouldn't win, and lots of people will be successful who. I mean, I don't know that you'll find, like, a better, like, summation of Harper than ultimately what Yaz says about her morals in this episode and how, like, flexible and fluid they are. Every character feels that way at this point.

Joanna Robinson (18:54)

Today, Yaz looking at herself in the mirror and saying that line.

Rob Mahoney (18:57)

First of all, Yaz would never look at herself in the mirror except to adjust that sheer triangle.

Jodie Walker (19:01)

And she wouldn't do anything else with the mirror either. So don't ask.

Joanna Robinson (19:04)

Don't ask about it. Let me wrap up the journalism piece really quickly and say on this sort of interesting Norton Publishing Group versus FinTech here, I think it's interesting to go back to some of the conversations we had. I have a lot that I want to say about this episode in terms of, like, American strivers and how they're sort of represented in this show and in this episode.

Rob Mahoney (19:27)

Full of shit, you mean, aren't we all?

Joanna Robinson (19:29)

But I mean, I think the conversation you have between Jim's editor, David Wilmot, played by David Wilmot, his editor is Edward Burgess, an Irishman, and then Jim, Charlie Heaton, using his Leeds Accent as Jim. These, like. And then like, when we see his editor first when he's talking on his phone, he has a mug that's like the Brentford B's Football club, which is a West London football club that is very, like, working class, like, family oriented, progressive politics. Like, they have a. Like a booster group called the LGBT or LGBT's or something like that. Like, you know, they're just like, very, like, we're proud of our West London, like, heritage. That is his team versus the Norton Group. And they're each calling out each other's hypocrisy and. And the way in which we hear this Irishman and this guy from Leeds talking about taking down the elites and the horrible people at the heart of finance, but also we hear the horrible people at the heart of finance calling out the hypocrisy of these guys. And I just think, once again, industry's interest in class warfare or the way it deploys its Irish characters inside of this show is something that I faintly have a grasp on because again, I'm American, but also, I think is always, constantly intentional. You know what I mean? And then I guess my question for you guys is, okay, so Jim is dead. We'll come back to Jim, I promise. Jim is dead. His editor, though, is played by an actor Rob and I really like and recognize. So hopefully we'll come back. Jim had a. A reluctant source over there, and I wasn't sure he was using a male pronoun. He was saying he. I wasn't sure if that was, like, actually hailing in some regard. But also a common theory I'm seeing floating around is that this is fired comms guy Robin. Robin Williamson.

Rob Mahoney (21:27)

Oh, interesting.

Joanna Robinson (21:28)

You know, like, is he with an ax now to grind? Will there be enough information between investigative reporter Sweet Pea, you know, this editor who has. Will have a chip on his shoulder about it, and Robin, who is fired from the comms department. Any thoughts and feelings about that, Jodie?

Jodie Walker (21:47)

I think that would be exciting because, yeah, it feels like it does. It's so hard to know really who.

Joanna Robinson (21:56)

Or what to root for in this.

Jodie Walker (21:58)

Situation, like, with Jim dead. Yeah, it seems like a lot of that goes down because what is Harper gonna do? What are Harper and Sweet Pea gonna do to, like, expose this story? And what we know is, like, they're exposing it for their own gain. I think it's interesting to look at Sweet Pea now doing corporate. Corporate espionage, because I think about in. I think it was season. Yeah, she came in. In season three. All of the hand wringing she did over whether she told Eric about the things that she had kind of heard from her friends that made her understand what was happening at peerpoint. And she did it in the most moral way possible. She. She did it to kind of try and look out for what was right. And where did it get her? You know, like, you see the lessons that she's learned and, oh, it got her to Harper, and that's probably not a better place to be, but seems like she's having fun.

Joanna Robinson (22:57)

I.

Rob Mahoney (22:57)

One can only hope, you know, she seems, she seems unlike everyone else on this show, energized by the work that they are doing without, you know, medicinal accompaniment to get up in the morning.

Joanna Robinson (23:07)

If there's one person, honestly, one person that I feel like most pure of heart to root for at this point in Sweet Pea, like I would like, protect Sweet Pea at all costs is how I feel. And I. And I don't know why that is, because, yes, of course she's in deep in corporate espionage. She's catfishing Jonah. She's doing like, all sorts of things. But I'm. I don't know, there's something about her where I was like, yeah, there's, there's something here worth protecting, worth defending.

Rob Mahoney (23:32)

I don't know what's a little light to medium catfishing in the world of industry, frankly?

Jodie Walker (23:37)

Nothing. It's nothing. I mean, yeah, just she, she feels like the collateral damage of the statement. Not a single one of us gets out a lot.

Joanna Robinson (23:46)

Right.

Jodie Walker (23:46)

You know, she, she is, she is much more so dabbling in the sort of black area, the gray to black area, than anyone else. And she seems to have some intentions that could be right and morally sound. But she's, but she's in the bed with these people. And you talked about it, Joanna. But the word of the episode is hypocrisy. And it's people using other people's hypocrisy to sort of defend their own and as a means to make their own. Right. And there is, of course, the iconic line from Henry's uncle who says, public stoning of hypocrites is like bloodletting. It makes us feel better about our own hypocrisies.

Joanna Robinson (24:36)

Yeah.

Jodie Walker (24:37)

And don't we love it?

Joanna Robinson (24:38)

Jim going out complaining about consent and Haley, I was like, oh, great, what a way to go. All right, let's talk about what I'm calling Henry Mutzky Jobs impression. Right. So before we get to the conference, the Web Horizon presentation, we have this UI design conversation, the return of pure point kind of into the converse of the conversation here. Wipe the fucking crypto component off it. I've given that note three fucking times. Love to give notes again and again and again. Do we think Henry, again, his hypocrisy, his, like, constant grandstanding of, like, this is an app for the people. This is. I am here to sort of, like, balance the scales of society via my work here, just as I was trying to do with Lumi before it or whatever. But do we think he was personally hurt by a crypto scam, first of all? And secondly, did we enjoy the return of the excellently named Wilhelmina Fassbinder? Fassbinder. Fassbinder. From. Who was the one who sort of gave Eric the boot last season? From Pure Point? What do you think, Jodi?

Jodie Walker (25:50)

I mean, another one of industry's iconic gingers. They really. It's a ginger, you know, it's not recessive there. I did. I. Yeah. I always enjoy when the smaller characters come back, and I think that it was so, like. It was so, like, shocking, even on just an audio level to hear HearPoint reintroduced into the mix and then to see it in that very, like, startup tech sort of font on the UI of the app and like, that we are pulling this dinosaur into the future. But it's all banks, babes. Like, you know, you can say we're killing the bank as much as you want to. Whitney. It's all banks. And I think that Pierpoint really represents that and. And Wilhelmina had become so the representation of the sort of new age company man, like, you know, the company man that can fake woke, but it's still capitalism. And I think bringing back that in this moment was really good and probably, well, evidently really painful for him.

Rob Mahoney (27:02)

It seems it. I mean, along the lines of the fake woke. That's still capitalism. I mean, that's just Whitney. Throughout this episode where I was just constantly confronted with the idea of, like, sure, you don't want Jonah running your company, but Whitney is fundamentally much more dishonest than Jonah ever was.

Joanna Robinson (27:19)

Way worse. Just.

Rob Mahoney (27:20)

Just way worse and way more insidious in so many different ways.

Jodie Walker (27:23)

And so it's better at it.

Rob Mahoney (27:25)

I mean, he's much better at it. And he's clearly trying. He's trying to get tender over the line of something of almost like a too big to fail, so that when inevitably the investigations come or the house of cards starts to, like, have some structural integrity problems, that there'll just be too much propping it up for it to actually crumble. But in Doing so he's just, like, consistently a piece of shit across the board, and I love watching it, and I'm enjoying seeing him basically try to pull everyone's strings at once to the point that I don't even know who he's not attempting to control at this point.

Joanna Robinson (27:55)

I think that's interesting, but I think I. I have a question about Pierpoint and its role on the show going forward. Because, like, do we want it going forward as just, like, merely a footnote on the Tender UI user experience? Or when Henry talks about buying up PeerPoint stock? Is there a future of PeerPoint on this show owned by the Muck family? Or do we want purepoint coming back in some sort of significant way? Or do we like the idea of moving on from it, the way that we fundamentally have this season? What do you think, Jodi?

Jodie Walker (28:34)

I don't know what idea I like, but I know what idea Eric and Harper would like, which is that they get to really take down Pierpoint once and for all. And it's, you know, direct connection to Tinder gives them more of an opportunity to do that. But it's. Oh, it is. It's seeming really unlikely that they're gonna succeed there.

Joanna Robinson (28:58)

I. I continue to have this, like, very weird hope. I know.

Jodie Walker (29:04)

It is weird for.

Joanna Robinson (29:05)

I know. For a Yaz and Harper alliance based on the show. Look at the. The look they exchanged.

Rob Mahoney (29:13)

Yeah.

Joanna Robinson (29:14)

When Jim, in his final days, was there kind of grilling Whitney.

Rob Mahoney (29:20)

Yep.

Joanna Robinson (29:20)

And Whitney saying some shit. And Yaz is realizing what a house of cards she has hooked herself up to. And Harper's looking at her like, do you see what you've gotten yourself into? And the way in which Henry's entire presentation, which, by the way, Kit Harrington told Katie Baker, quote, you get the feeling there's a whole storyline which you never see, where he's sort of in therapy talking about all of this because, like, Henry's just coming in with a therapy talk constantly. I deeply relate. I love that for him. But he gets up there and he just, like. He's like, basically, I am tender. My failures and my honor and my intentions are what tender is. And I am now selling tender to you based on who I am. And Whitney is certainly happy to set up Henry and Yaz for the fall here. Right. He's like. At the very end of the episode, he's like, us three ride or die. We live and die together. Right.

Rob Mahoney (30:16)

Well, he says, we ride together, we die together.

Joanna Robinson (30:18)

Right.

Rob Mahoney (30:19)

Bad boys for life. But.

Joanna Robinson (30:21)

But also, you guys die, and I don't is probably what he's hoping he set up here, certainly. And there's something about yes, there is my dumb, dumb optimism that Harper and Yaz might work together. It's all I ever want. But also there's this question of like who gets to win in stories like this. Is it an American striver like Whitney, or is it the people who are deeply insulated by their money and privilege like Yaz and Henry? This is like very much in a demented way. He's not nearly as romantic as Gatsby. A Gatsby vs Daisy and Tom sort of thing where it's just sort of like you've got Whitney in here saying shit to Henry about like we are worth more than our than our origins. I'm badly paraphrasing, right? But like a very Gatsby esque like I'm better than where I was born and I want to prove that to everyone. Jonah talking about the way in which his entire self worth, Whitney's entire self worth would rise and fall based on the stock valuation of Tender. Right? So he's got like everything riding on this. He's just like green light Gatsbying his way into a new life trying to put these other people on the hook. But I just don't think the Tom and Daisies of the world like ever are held responsible for things when they go wrong. But I know we're not reading F. Scott Fitzgerald, we're watching industry. And so this could be a completely different story we're, you know, ingesting here. But what do you guys think?

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Rob Mahoney (33:26)

I mean we're still chasing the blinking green light off in the distance one way or another. Joe, I wish I could share your optimism about Gaz and Harper in particular. I think my read on that scene though was fundamentally different where I read that much more as like, if you'll pardon the detour into the world of sports. I don't even watch like the weigh in for boxers when they show up and sort of face off in anticipation of the fight. This felt like more setting them up on opposite sides of the collision that we all know is coming. And I don't think the way out of that collision is going to be they find some side door to work together in part because I personally would love to find the joy in my life and my heart that Yaz shows in this episode. Just the mere suggestion that Harper might have fucked up. Like the absolute smile that erupts on her face from Whitney. I just don't think that she wants that at this point.

Joanna Robinson (34:18)

How was it? Okay, I wanna hear what Jodie thinks, but I just wanna say that like there was a moment in with the Norton Publishing Group, right, where she's pitching them this story. Whitney's on the speakerphone. Robin comes in and tries to talk for him and he's like, don't talk for me. Very scary. But when Whitney comes in with a yeah, I have photographs. Didn't yes. Look a little like. I didn't know I was gonna burn Harper this badly. I walked in here without all of the information. What do you think, Jody?

Jodie Walker (34:48)

And kind of what she said. Yeah, I myself am a romantic like Joanna, who roots for female friendships. Ok. And just really hoping that this one can still somehow make it out alive. But I almost found it kind when. Not kind, but when Yasmine, I think, is presented with the idea of the photos and what might be going on and she says that Harper is probably being spurred on by her former boss and explains them as a poisonous double act, as though that could not Also explain them Harper and Yaz or almost everyone on the show, but that she knows that's Harper. Like, she knows that's Harper, you know, And Eric is being spurred on by her and really trying in some, you know, fucked up father way to tether her to the ground. But there is this instinct that is ongoing, I think, in Yaz and Harper to protect one another. But the intentions of that protection are.

Joanna Robinson (35:53)

Always.

Jodie Walker (35:56)

Only within themselves. They have this way of being like, I just want what's best for you. I know what's best for you. And they can't allow the other person to be a whole person. They can kind of only see the best in them or only see the worst in them. And it's for me, like, the most. The most meaningful line and sort of interaction in this episode that really brought it all together for me was that interaction between Henry and Whitney before he goes on stage to give the speech. And it's ultimately Whitney who inspires Henry in the way that Yasmin has been so eager to. Because Whitney sees Henry. He sees that Henry actually wants to be appreciated for the things that he does feel confident in, that he feels confident are true of himself, which are his upbringing, which are his name. And that's what Whitney sees in him. He says, I don't know what it is, man, but I look at someone like you and I believe you. And that's kind of messed up, but it's why we're here. And in explaining the app to. It's so funny every time they, like when. When. When Henry gives his big speech and he's like. And that's why we're leveraging AI to whatever, you know, it's like, it always. It's still an app, you know, it's still just an app. But when Whitney explains to Henry that there that he needs to give total transparency, which is also what the app is offering. I know. And he says, you're giving people the dignity of being able to choose for themselves, which is what Whitney is offering. But what he's really offering is manipulation.

Rob Mahoney (37:45)

Oh, no.

Jodie Walker (37:46)

When you are manipulating someone, you are giving them the idea that you are giving them the dignity to choose for themselves. And what you are taking away from them is their dignity.

Joanna Robinson (37:56)

Master. Like, Whitney, just genuinely master manipulator. Like, really impressive watching him actively steal Henry out from under Yaz inside of this episode and in the same episode, hearing from Jonah the sort of, like, heartbreak that Jonah felt of, like, I loved him. Like, you know, and there is this, like, thread of Whitney's Queerness that we should have probably been perhaps alerted to with our email address from the beginning. But, you know, like, Jonah's dropping some coded language here. We get the very close proximity that. In which he and Henry say, like, when Yaz walks in with them, like, nearly kissing distance apart, Whitney has his.

Jodie Walker (38:39)

Hands on Henry's arms and he snaps them down like, oh, no, I've been caught manipulating someone else's husband.

Rob Mahoney (38:47)

Manipulating the manipulator's husband, specifically. It's a real showdown.

Joanna Robinson (38:51)

But I love the comp between, you know, Kit Harrington, our short king. Like, Yaz was towering over him in episode three, and she just sort of, like, laughs. She's like, it's just the shoes or whatever. When Whitney comes super close to him and is, like, also a little bit towering over him, and in that same exact excuse that Jodi was just highlighting, he mentions fascism, and he says, you are more and I am less. Even though I'm literally standing inches above you right now, I look up to you. You are more. I am less, while towering over him. And that's just a better understanding of Henry's vulnerabilities than Yaz has. He's just better at this control game than Yaz is and better at controlling Yaz. And Yaz is getting a slight sense of it, I think, inside of this episode. Henry has no fucking clue and is just like, you know, absolute putty in Whitney's hands. And it's fascinating to watch, honestly.

Jodie Walker (39:42)

That scene, not the one in the sort of green room before the speech, but in the final scene between Henry and Whitney where they're in the office and he's towering over him as a studier of cults, it felt so cult leader like that. Like, this was an unusually charismatic. This is an unusually charismatic man who doesn't have all of the means or the background to get precisely where he wants, but what he has is the power to romance people, to manipulate them, to move them around. And he's like, you know, the.

Joanna Robinson (40:21)

The.

Jodie Walker (40:22)

The most powerful person in a cult, other than the leader, is always the number three, but the person who feels like they're most powerful is the number two. But that's just the person who's been most romance, and that's Henry. Like, he is creating his number two there. Oh, and Yasmin is going to be a terrific number three to, you know, take the ball for everything.

Rob Mahoney (40:43)

Why do I feel like in the toxic cult of this podcast, I am the powerless number two? As. As the two of you really run this show? You know, in The. In the toxic triple act that we have created.

Jodie Walker (40:53)

We need the special. The very special essence about you.

Joanna Robinson (40:58)

We need that she's winning you in real time.

Rob Mahoney (41:01)

Real incredible to see.

Jodie Walker (41:03)

If only I could tower over you.

Joanna Robinson (41:06)

Anything you want to say about Jonah specifically, Rob, like, in terms of Jonah scene here with Sweet Pea or anything that he specifically says before he gives over, you know, a bunch of documents to Sweet Pea with one mirror phone call. What do you think?

Rob Mahoney (41:19)

I mean, yet another way that someone is being manipulated. But he feel. It feels like his eyes are open, despite the fact that he is under the influence, that he's too loaded for riddles. Like, he knows exactly what's happening and he doesn't care, because Sweet Pea knows just what to appeal to. And it's that sweet, sweet sense of revenge. Because what is. What could possibly be more powerful than that?

Jodie Walker (41:37)

He's also hammered.

Joanna Robinson (41:39)

Yes.

Rob Mahoney (41:40)

And mid lap dance, you know, like, he's. He is pliable in a lot of different respects. And I think Sweet Pea does a great job of, like, walking a line and being just up front enough. And, like, I mean, she's pretty straight with him when she gets him on the phone, ultimately about what they're after, but also kind of massaging the truth a little bit.

Joanna Robinson (41:57)

I want to give the line delivery of the episode to Sweet Pea when she goes, oh, he's replying about Jonah. Very, very good shit.

Jodie Walker (42:06)

Such a great line reading. Cause for a minute, I was just kind of like, oh, she's talking to Jonah. And then I was like, oh, she's talking to Jonah. Through only. Exactly. Now, I. And that comp for sort of sex work and the relationship and what's understood there and what's not understood, and that it makes sense that that is almost the most honest form of communication that we get is between those two people, where one knows that they're being manipulated and is playing into it. And therefore, is that really manipulation? I don't know.

Rob Mahoney (42:44)

And Sweet Pea, in that capacity, is doing the least manipulation via sex and via physical intimacy of almost anybody on.

Jodie Walker (42:51)

The show, to be frank, who also says it. She's out front with it. She's like, this is the job.

Joanna Robinson (42:55)

Who would you say is doing the most?

Rob Mahoney (42:57)

I mean, I. I think Whitney, in the implication that we were just talking about just like, the. The classic, like, little bicep touch. All of that stuff definitely is a part of it. Classic bicep touch move. But I. I think this is where I'm. I find myself wondering. Haley has a game and Whitney has a game. And how much are they the same game is something I was left with in watching this episode. To what extent are their motivations or actions intertwined? And is what Haley is going after and what she's kind of the way she's spun Yaz about in particular, is that an extension of her working with Whitney in some way?

Joanna Robinson (43:34)

Well.

Jodie Walker (43:35)

And how much does Whitney know when he says Haley's supposed to split the load with Henry, So let her take half the load off you.

Joanna Robinson (43:42)

There's two options here, okay? One is the most obvious, which is that Hailey has told him and, like, the look, she. I mean, like, I would not be surprised at all. Absolutely not surprised at all if she did. The other option is that there's, like, next level levels of surveillance on all of these people that Whitney has access to. You know what I mean? Like, even in the Hitler room, we heard squelching. He might have heard the squelching. You know what I mean? Like, we might have all squelched together.

Rob Mahoney (44:06)

Yeah, sure.

Joanna Robinson (44:07)

Let's talk about Hailey. Why the hell not? Can I give you a Kiernan Shipka quote that she gave our pal Katie Baker? Right.

Rob Mahoney (44:16)

Please.

Joanna Robinson (44:16)

Yes. The most fun scenes to watch back to back. Shipka said the scene in the FinTech conference where I'm like a scared little deer in headlights talking to Yasmin about how uncomfortable I am what we did. And I'm appearing to be so naive and innocent and conflicted in torture. And the elevator scene where you go, oh, my God, girl is wicked. She's psycho in the best way possible. She's absolutely deranged. Um, not to, like, re hammer a point, but I do just want to, like, possibly enter this scene between Yaz and Hailey in the elevator. The thank you, mommy cheek. Flash all of that into the pantheon of, like, Mad Men elevator scenes. Like Mad Men loves an elevator scenes. Not great. Bob, I don't think about you at all. I want to burn this place down. Like, all these iconic moments happen in the elevators in Mad Men. And here we've got Kiernan Shipka forever emblazoned in my mind and my heart for her performance in that scene in particular, I also want to shout out this very odd choice they had to have an American actress said, you really rate me. You really rate me. Is such a Britishism. Sounds very odd coming from an American and sounds so close to, you really raped me that I saw a lot of people were confused by it, so I thought that was a really. I don't know how intentional that choice was, but I Was like, that was a strong moment. Jodi, your thoughts on the elevator?

Jodie Walker (45:41)

I mean, Yeah, I. I had the same thought about the word choice. And in a show, like, industry, you kind of feel like it has to be intentional. And I think we saw that, like, with Harper early on that she had certain, you know, Britishisms that she'd already picked up. And it's like, you just have to say hospital, not the hospital there. Everyone will laugh at you. So, like, it makes enough sense that she. That she would say it. But I do think that the similarity to the word rape, like, maybe not on Haley's level, but on the writing level, has to be there. I. There is something. I should probably dip a little deeper on this with the therapist, but there is something, to me about when Yaz gets her comeuppance that I find so delicious. Even when it's someone else doing something terrible, even when it's like, there's just. There's something about Yaz that she's. She's discovered so many things that she's good at and positively not one thing that she's great at. And every time she learns that she's on the back foot, I just, like, I. In such the worst. It's like, the worst instinct in me. I love it because she always. It is her privilege. She always becomes convinced that she got a home run when she started on third. It happens constantly. And so, like, to see her realize in real time that she is dealing with someone who is much more capable of doing what she thinks it is she's doing. And she's really realizing that about Whitney, but I think, like, on a slower level, about Whitney, because she also still kind of wants. She wants his power. She wants those things to realize it about Haley and then to hate for Haley to just literally taunt her. I mean, like. Like, it is sexual, sure, but, like. I mean, she moons her. You know, like, she haunts her and says, thank you, Mommy. I loved it. And I loved it as an elevator scene. Like, I loved Yaz looking straight forward the whole time and watching that look come over her face.

Rob Mahoney (47:48)

Yeah, there's, like, equal parts Mad Men type elevator scene. And, like, describing the qualities of the Joker in the Dark Knight in this. In, like, a. Like, Yaz has gotten into business with someone she fundamentally does not understand who might just want to watch the world burn. Ultimately, I find myself with these two. Jodie, you said that it appeals to kind of the worst parts of you to see Yaz have her comeuppance. I don't even know That I agree with that. Because I think part of the reason that scene works and is so satisfying is because it's precipitated by the scene you talked about, Joe, or that Kiernan Shipka talked about where you see Yaz almost go like, full to the side.

Joanna Robinson (48:24)

Try magic. Try magnesium.

Rob Mahoney (48:26)

The trim magnesium. Like, you know, you.

Joanna Robinson (48:28)

You're appealing to her.

Rob Mahoney (48:31)

You have to protect your agency from this douchebag reporter. Like, shifting all the blame and attention away from all of the, like, at best, line walking, at worst, clearly over the line bullshit that she has done with Haley to this point.

Jodie Walker (48:45)

The prices, the price of his actions is your trauma. You can't let him take away your agency as well. While she is actively trying to take away her agency.

Rob Mahoney (48:55)

She's doing it.

Jodie Walker (48:56)

The reveal that maybe she hasn't taken away any agency is. That is delicious. I do think there's something. There is something for me that's like, do I need to look inward on this? Because Yaz is a woman. And so, like, when I see Yaz getting her come up and I'm like, oh, am I also doing a Yaz. Like, am I loving seeing this woman's.

Joanna Robinson (49:19)

Jenny's a girl girl always, forever.

Jodie Walker (49:22)

Even when those girls are Yas and Harper. You know, this podcast.

Joanna Robinson (49:26)

We always.

Jodie Walker (49:26)

Absolutely we. And there are so few women's rights to support on industry that we simply must support their wrongs.

Rob Mahoney (49:33)

It's true.

Jodie Walker (49:33)

And yet it's delicious.

Rob Mahoney (49:35)

See, I have. I feel like I have no choice under these circumstances but to support the toxic male friendship that's developing between Henry and Whitney as well.

Jodie Walker (49:42)

You know, like, of course, presentation matters, Ron.

Rob Mahoney (49:45)

Presentation does matter. But again, I think part of the reason that that scene works, part of the reason all of the comeuppances for these characters work, but for Yaz in particular, because she is so smug, is like her trying to flex in episode three and thinking she is sitting on her throne calling the shots, only to find out that she has in fact sat herself in the cuck chair is just a very satisfying turn of plot for any character to be involved in.

Joanna Robinson (50:09)

Also, the way she, like, is so gleefully participates in Robin getting fired when Robin's like, hey, I'm qualified for this job and who the fuck are you?

Jodie Walker (50:18)

Exactly. Precisely. When did Yaz get so into pr, right?

Joanna Robinson (50:23)

Right when she discovered comms.

Jodie Walker (50:25)

I was like, yeah, what's happening? An absolute comms queen. I do. I want to note one other thing on the. On the. The Haley front. And I was. I was thinking about it because you know, we talked about Yaz's shoulder pads and I. Fashion has always played a part in the show. I feel like in this season a certain especially like they've, they're. They're out of pure point and so they're able to really let it loose. And Yaz has clearly dialed her fashion down. Like her sort of, you know, more avant garde fashion down now that she's back in this office. I was so stunned by the Haley cheeks reveal because she's wearing such a terrible outfit. Like, she's wearing a pretty. It is a short skirt, but it's sort of a dowdy skirt. She's wearing like this long waisted and high necked vest that actually I noticed that when she flips her skirt up, it completely messes up her outfit. Like her vest, her vest goes all askew. Like it's not an outfit that is made to have that under it. And like that made it, it would make it. Made it all the more shocking to me and I know it would make it all the more shocking to Yaz who saw that outfit and said, you like, she, you know, she would have not liked that outfit and she would have definitely not expected, well, what was under it or what was coming.

Joanna Robinson (51:50)

And I think to go back to the sort of like, we support women girls girl, Yaz dressing up, her like absolute disgusting manipulation inside of like, I'm a girl, I'm promoting you. I tell you, you can have the night off, you know, in Vienna when we go there. Like, I can, you know, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera. Like, or sorry, they were in Austria. We'll talk about Vienna in a second. But like, it's so vile and like, I have defended horrible women across so many HBO properties and I will probably still defend Yaz when the time comes. But. But yeah, I, I was very satisfied by Hailey turning the tables on her here. And I love this for. I, I think, I think Charlie Heaton's really good in this episode, like sort of burying the ghost of Jonathan Byers. And I think Kieran Shipka does a great job in these last couple episodes burying both Sabrina and, and Sally Draper, you know, six feet under. So I love the new folks.

Jodie Walker (52:45)

I mean, Max Mangella too. Like, obviously he's been great the whole way through, but this episode I was like, you know, wow, he can really play this sort of, you know, charming, seductive character that the I. That is one of the greatest. You know, Rob, you were talking about the, like season four is really working for you. That is one of Its greatest successes is how seamlessly it has brought these new characters in. Yeah.

Joanna Robinson (53:08)

Yeah.

Rob Mahoney (53:09)

And I think with all these manipulations, and that's clearly always been a part of industry, like, the ways in which these characters are revving each other up or tearing each other down or trying to point them in directions that would be beneficial to them personally baked into the DNA of the show. But with everything happening right now and so many sides playing each other, even within the same companies, it's turned into the kind of show where I want to go back and I want to isolate, like, what was the exact moment when Haley realized that Yaz was playable for her? Right. Like, was it literally from the first time they met in the hallway of. Of, you know, the manor, basically, as Haley kind of very performatively was taking a snooze on a. On a daybed? Like, was that part of the play from the jump? Was it already kind of, like, in the works at that point? Or was it something she calculated from the line testing she did in suggesting she jump into Yaz's bed in the first place?

Jodie Walker (53:59)

I think the moment it cemented for her, or at least she was showing her hand a bit, is when she tells Yaz, you know, Whitney is my boss. Whitney and Henry are my bosses.

Joanna Robinson (54:09)

I have heard that from you.

Jodie Walker (54:11)

Because she could have just. She could have just not taken the night off. She could have taken it. She could have said nothing. But she does tip a little bit, like, I'm not yours. And I think she does it not to show Yasmin that she's more in charge of this, but to show you. Show her. You have to make me yours more so that then she gets even more power over it.

Joanna Robinson (54:32)

Right. I love that interpretation. And I also think it's so crucial to think about the moment that she, like, decided to tell Yaz about Jim. Like, for sure that that feels like a play as well. Absolutely.

Rob Mahoney (54:42)

Definitely.

Joanna Robinson (54:43)

All right. From thank you, mommy, to all the disgusting poppy daddy stuff that's happening with Rishi and his partner in the car, a lot of.

Jodie Walker (54:52)

I did think you were about to read an email from thank you, mommy.

Joanna Robinson (54:56)

No, no, no. Just like, thank you, Mommy and thank you. Like, and then the daddy stuff that he requires from this girl in the car is like, if we had any questions about the father daughter Eric Harper stuff and how, like, disgustingly mixed up in psychosexual power dynamics it is. This is so clear inside of this thank you, mommy, and, like, daddy stuff we get here. But I think that, like, Rishi. Rishi and this young woman in the car and then Rishi and his ex mother in law and this idea that like his existence is being sort of erased from his like whitewashed out of his son. Right. His son is now not gonna have his name at all. He's being deleted here. And it's an interesting parallel. We're gonna get to like two bad dads doing a lot of cocaine together. But like interesting parallel to Jim's. The mother of Jim's child at the beginning of the episode is like nobody knows you exist.

Rob Mahoney (55:56)

No.

Joanna Robinson (55:56)

Right. And then Rishi gets deleted.

Jodie Walker (55:59)

And I wanted it said to every single character.

Joanna Robinson (56:01)

Right?

Jodie Walker (56:02)

Yeah. I was like, I love this woman who we know nothing about, who is a one night stand coming in and just telling someone, no one knows who you are. And I would like it said to every person on the show.

Joanna Robinson (56:13)

Right.

Rob Mahoney (56:13)

I'm also ready to read her story about modern dating vis a vis numbers. Vis a vis Kierkegaard. Like I'm on the hook for that.

Jodie Walker (56:20)

I was like, she did not bring to it.

Joanna Robinson (56:22)

Jim did. Jim made it about.

Rob Mahoney (56:25)

But thematically it's not. Not about Kierkegaard.

Jodie Walker (56:27)

I was a little bit like, how does plagiarism work? Because this is a beat that I'm kind of on too. And I wrote about dating and numbers and height somewhat recently and I was like, she's listening.

Joanna Robinson (56:39)

Do you know about Bonnie Blue, this UK only fans person? Do you want to share with the class? Jody Walker?

Jodie Walker (56:46)

I. I mean I just know about her to the extent that. And I would somewhat separate that from the transactional state of app dating. But yes, that she I believe has done a few specials where she has slept with an astronomical number of men. I'm not sure the heights that it's reached.

Joanna Robinson (57:07)

She tried to break the world record for number of men slept with within a day and got like. Yeah, and got to over a thousand. It was like a thousand one hundred and something or whatever. And then another woman like beat her record like you know, within like she broke her record and then she broke her record or something like that. But anyway, this is like a very well known UK OnlyFans personality and Jim's one night stand who is now a single parent, I guess, but wasn't she already is sort of writing about this transactional nature? And this is how we get half of the episode title. Right. A Thousand Youths is like about Bonnie Blue. And then. And one Marilyn is sort of Jim's cokey rant that he has at the end of this episode. So this idea of like Which Jodi brought up earlier about this idea of transactional nature of sex and how it relates to all of this capitalist pursuit of power and securing of legacy, if you prefer, et cetera, et cetera. That's what it's all about. And that those are the bookends of this episode.

Rob Mahoney (58:15)

Coked up Jim, super weird guy. I don't particularly want to hang out with him. I certainly don't agree with everything he's saying, but, like, the end points he starts to reach for.

Joanna Robinson (58:24)

Jim had some good points. Rob Mahoney would like to state on.

Jodie Walker (58:27)

A couple good points from Jim.

Rob Mahoney (58:29)

Not what I'm saying. Not what I'm saying. The gestures he makes at the volume and scale and dissociation of modern life. Basically, this idea of, like, once you can have an infinite amount of the thing you think you want, what does literally anything mean anymore? I do find some resonance in that idea. And I do find some resonance in that idea as it applies to all of these characters in their aspirations for power and their aspirations for a little more money or a little more control. And we got an email that I thought was really interesting from Isaiah, who was asking specifically about Rishi about this is. This is a quote from his email. He said, rishi has fallen so far from his initial post at peerpoint, but I'm not convinced he's materially different from other characters. Both Harper and Yaz also regularly make choices that would land them in jail. Is Rishi just unlucky, or is there a better reason for his incessant failure? And I think, like, all of these people are addicts in different ways, and they're chasing after different things, and they make compromises all the time. I don't know how the two of you feel about this, but to me, it's like a pretty faint line between Rishi stumbling down the path that leads to, like, worse and worse and worse and worse outcomes. And ultimately, like, the kinds of endeavors that Harper or Yaz or Eric are these other characters. Like, Eric is a great example. Like, he is an inch away from losing basically his life savings. And once that happens, how short is the distance between him and Rishi?

Joanna Robinson (59:50)

Well, yeah, Rishi exists as this thing that we love to see in fiction, which is, like, there before the grace. Like, you know, this is the cautionary tale of, like, how badly things can spin, how far down the rabbit hole one can go, how far you can fling yourself off a balcony and still not be put out of your misery and still be having to crawl your way forward in this life. But I think that I was thinking about that in terms of Jim at the beginning of this episode when he's like popping Ritalin, I think, and, you know, just trying to get through a night of writing.

Rob Mahoney (60:21)

Can you really going down Wikipedia rabbit.

Joanna Robinson (60:23)

Holes, who could recognize this and is losing time is so close to what we saw with Henry and like his drug trips and losing time, but, like, there's just this great cushion around Henry that does not exist around someone like Jim. And so, like, Henry ends that ill advised drug binge losing time with like a cushy new job and like, you know, all the stars aligning for him. And Jim winds up dead from a laced batch of coke. And so. So once again, the show is just telling us there are different opportunities, obviously for different people. That's no dust statement, but just inside of this question you're asking, I think Eric will be okay because he's been rich enough. I think he's reached a height of richness where you're golfing on the same course as Donald Trump, that there is no, like bottoming out for an Eric anymore.

Jodie Walker (61:26)

Yeah, he says it's his daughter's inheritance, but it's not bankrupting him per se. I mean, I think we know what his severance was at peerpoint. It was more than that. So I. But I think. Yeah, I mean, Joanna, you said it. Cushion was sort of precisely the word that I was thinking. And Richie does literally fling himself off of a balcony with no cushioning. He is a person of color. He is a person of color in the UK class system. And, you know, I think it's of note that the sort of like three main people of color that we followed are Eric Harper and Rishi. Eric and Harper are Americans. It takes some of that out of there, out of the story that we get with Rishi as he falls and falls and falls with no safety nets. I do also think that he's despicable like I was. I mean, this, this. And it's. The more those safety nets are taken away from him, I think the more the show opens your eyes to that, it's like we're obviously dealing with all despicable people. And the, you know, question at hand from Joanna was kind of is, is he any worse? Is he any less lucky? And the answer is, is probably no. But I think even for us as viewers, as we see wealth stripped away, as we see privilege stripped away, as we see Rolex's pond and knuckles bloodied, that also makes it harder as the viewer to interpret him as good or Redeemable as much as purely bad. And like, watching him film that woman in the car and make her call him D. I mean, it's just. It's disgusting. And like, there are those lingering sort of residual feelings from earlier seasons of like, maybe this man can be redeemed and you don't want to see himself break his ankles. Goodness, did I not want to see that? But I'm also tired of him. I am tired of his bullshit, frankly.

Rob Mahoney (63:28)

I think. I think it's very easy to read him jumping off of a balcony and breaking his ankles in the aforementioned fashion as rock bottom for Rishi. But I. I think both of you have circled it, which there really is just nothing more cursed than having to interrupt your own videoing of your sexcapades in which you're asking this woman to call you daddy so she can get another bump because the mother in law of the wife that you got killed is calling you to basically inform you in so many ways that you're never gonna see your son again. At least in any unsupervised fashion. Like, that's about as bad as it gets.

Joanna Robinson (64:03)

What's worse, Jody, than ever have for a man than having your legacy erased?

Jodie Walker (64:08)

Well, I was gonna say, Rob, that the worst thing actually to happen is to watch someone feel sorry for themselves in that scenario, which is what we're watching Rishi do. It's like also what we're watching. I mean, to. To a slightly lesser extent, like, watching Jonah, you know, feel like the victim when he's, like, totally in a strip club in the middle of the day, rich and drunk and disgusting. You know, like, it is a show about watching people feel sorry for themselves knowing what they've done.

Joanna Robinson (64:42)

I want to, for a second, I regret to inform you I have to talk about Alfred Hitchcock for a second. And I have to say that when I talk about prestige television, one of my favorite things to talk about is Alfred. And I've said it a million times, so fast forward if you've heard me say it before. But Alfred Hitchcock had this thing he liked to talk about, which was suspense versus surprise. And the example that he would give is if you have a scene with two men talking and all of a sudden the room blows up, that's surprise. If you have a scene with two men talking in a room and you show the bomb under the table ticking away, and you keep cutting back and forth to the men and the bomb and the men and the bomb, then we at home are just like, on the edge of our seat, knowing something's coming and that he prefers suspense to surprise. So I will say, when this shady dude shows up outside the pub, I'm like, the bomb starts ticking when he throws that his, like, sachet of drugs on the table. I was like, there's the bomb. And it's just sitting there all through the Cokie rants. And I was like, jim is not making it out of this episode alive. Like, that felt very clear to me. Rishi was a question mark to me. Like, I wasn't sure, but, like, Conrad called it cokey nonsense. Like, all the stuff that Jim was saying inside of this, right? And he says, quote, but embedded in it is a bit. A little bit of a critique of certain aspects around commodification of personhood through capitalism and how everybody's identity is now monetizable.

Rob Mahoney (66:02)

And so, like, see, I'm not the only one who saw some truth in that.

Joanna Robinson (66:06)

He's sitting here taking notes, and he's like, this is a magnum opus. And to me, I'm like, it doesn't really matter what he's saying here, because what we're watching are the final, horrible, desperate minutes of someone's life. And I, like, Jim is also despicable, to use Jodie's very accurate word here. And so my limits for empathy do exist. But also, like, I don't know, there he's. He's being snuffed out by someone far more powerful. Because my interpretation of events is that this guy that they meet outside the club who's like, let me save you from this grifter. I myself, a guy hired to kill you.

Rob Mahoney (66:46)

Yeah. Puts a corporate assassin, presumably, you know.

Joanna Robinson (66:49)

Is hired, I have to assume by Whitney to do this. After Jim makes some very fine points, you know, in front of Amelia demilda Morgan, he's like, you will not embarrass me in front of chicken chop date. No. And, you know, cranks up the volume. Cranks up the volume in order to either call in the noise complaint himself or whatever the case may be, leaves him there hoping that Rishi will also take the lace drugs. But Rishi had his cause. They were in Rishi's apartment, Right. Because it's his stash of coke in the bathroom that he finds. So. Which, like, I think saves him from the fentanyl coke. Saves him, quote, unquote. But that this is. This is. We just watched an assassination of a character. And I thought it was really, really well done. Like, I really, really liked the end of this episode. As, like, horrible as it was to watch, for sure. Jodie what did you think?

Jodie Walker (67:37)

Oh, yeah, just. I mean, an excellent, excellent showcase and suspense. Because in addition to the bomb being thrown down on the table, we're also watching Rishi look between, you know, the volume being slowly turned up, its own amount of suspense that ultimately leads to the police arriving and to an open window that he's thinking about throwing himself outside of. You get the sort of. It's almost like a brief reprieve of him doing that from Jim taking the drugs. And then the police come and then he does it. I mean, it is so, like heart stopping over and over and over. The suspense is so high. And it is. It is. The undercurrent of it all is. Is Jim's Koki rant, which Rob saw some points in, and I guess so did I, because I wrote down.

Rob Mahoney (68:22)

Thank you.

Jodie Walker (68:22)

The line, we built an interface with the world that gives us what we want, but not what we want to want.

Joanna Robinson (68:30)

Yeah, yeah.

Jodie Walker (68:31)

And it's this guy coked out, thinking he's making a point. And he is, but he's part of the point. You know, he's. He's snorting drugs from Rishi, a drug dealer. Like. Like we built all these interfaces or these interfaces were built for us and now we're a part of them and we don't know how to stop using them in order to see what we really want. And at some point, is there a difference? And at some point, is it all just a bomb on the table?

Joanna Robinson (69:02)

There is this. This line that Whitney has in the first episode, right? He says, late capitalism is a carcinogen. It breeds a product for everything that you think you need. But I have the product people really want. Right? Who. Who.

Rob Mahoney (69:15)

What person that says that would ever be the problem, you know?

Joanna Robinson (69:19)

Yeah. You know, also has some very fine points.

Jodie Walker (69:23)

What I really want is a frictionless, transparent access to the full suite of banking and investment products app. You know, that is what I really want when I wake up in the morning. I think I want that.

Rob Mahoney (69:33)

A means of uplift. Absolutely.

Joanna Robinson (69:35)

Rob, what do you want to say about Jim's many fine points here at the end of his life? Life, I think.

Rob Mahoney (69:40)

So in the real time, watching this episode, I think I was less clear of whether the coke was laced or not or whether basically of whether this mystery man's inclusion in this scene and, like, intrusion on their lives was to kill Jim specifically or simply to, like, discredit him by putting enough coke on the table, turning the volume up, presumably calling the police himself to call in the noise complaint and getting the fuck out of Dodge. And the overdose was just, like, maybe an unfortunate side effect of the pure volume that Jim has been putting up his nose. But as you lay it out, Joe, I think you're right. Like, I think it just makes more sense that it's a very specific manipulation and more of a hit as opposed to just kind of taking Jim out of the picture.

Joanna Robinson (70:22)

I feel like one snort and you're dead is like.

Rob Mahoney (70:25)

But was it once? It seems like he's been snorting for.

Jodie Walker (70:27)

Hours, but, like, Rishi goes to the bathroom for a minute, you know, and when he comes back out, I mean, yeah, I. I agree that it. I didn't. I knew that guy was up to something, and I just didn't totally know what it was. And the. The immediate death of Jim felt like.

Joanna Robinson (70:45)

I felt like the way the camera's like, this one's on me, boys, and drops the session.

Rob Mahoney (70:51)

Makes total sense.

Joanna Robinson (70:52)

Yeah.

Rob Mahoney (70:52)

And we should say the reason any of these characters are in a room together, specifically this room at Rishi's place, is basically that it's implied, if not altogether confirmed, that Rishi has been, like, trying to dig into Jim's apartment, his flat, maybe taking his car keys to find more either for himself or for stern tile. We don't really know what, like, in what capacity he's doing anymore.

Joanna Robinson (71:13)

He also said he's been ghosted by Harper. So I would like to retry. Like, when Harper said to sweet pea, you won't have to see Rishi again, like. And I was like, she's lying. Well, I'm sorry. It looks like Harper kept one temporarily, kept one promise.

Rob Mahoney (71:29)

Temporary being returned.

Joanna Robinson (71:30)

Returning some phone calls from Rishi. I'm just gonna give her one grain of credit for that, I guess as.

Rob Mahoney (71:36)

Soon as things got complicated, I just have zero doubt in my mind that Harper is returning that call.

Joanna Robinson (71:40)

I agree, but it's moot now. Can I take you to needle drop corner here, please? I know at this point, it seems like I'm just trying to date the music supervisor on this show, but I just want to let you know that Vienna from My Ultravox is genuinely one of my favorite songs of all time. Has never been used lightly in a TV show or a movie before. I don't think they're intentionally alluding to. You know, it's been used in the Americans. 13 reasons why. Like Yellowjackets twice. Like, it's been used again and again. It's always used at a huge moment when, like, someone dies or something monumental is going on. Cause this is huge, epic. Like sweeping, romantic. There's a violin solo inside of this like new wave song sort of moment. But I love. It's easier they used almost. They let almost the entire track play, which is like very unusual. And I just think it's like I thought it was a really, really good pick here. Our pal Katie Baker identified something really fun and interesting about a different track that I completely missed, Forever Young, which plays at the very end when Rishi's on the ground. Right. Also fabulous is Alphaville, which is the name of the band that did that track, is the name of the Financial Times blog where the aforementioned financial journalist Sam McCrum first published his quote House of Wirecard series. Both the band and the website derive their names from the 1965 Jean Luc Godard film Alphaville in which a secret agent named Lemmy Caution infiltrates the city of Alphaville to bring down its computer ruled technocracy. Anyway, looking at the text in Macron's very first Alphaville post, this is Katie's incredible recap. Please read her coverage. I couldn't help but notice the similarities to Diker's article. So basically Dan McCrum's first Alphaville post is very textually similar to the bit of Jim's article that we see in this show. And it's from a blog called Alphaville, which is the name of the band that plays at the very end of the episode.

Rob Mahoney (73:45)

I mean, Katie Baker, ladies and gentlemen, that's incredible investigative work on its own.

Joanna Robinson (73:49)

10 out of 10. No, no. Any thoughts or feelings about like we get 1, 2, 3 tracks here played at the end of the episode. Any thoughts or feelings about it?

Rob Mahoney (73:57)

Well, quick detour on the financial journalism note. I mean just cause we talked a little bit about Amelia de Moldenberg's appearance in this episode and like obviously the scrum is like a huge confrontation moment for Jim that ultimately might seal his fate. I'm just like always so fascinated by industry's relationship to financial media, tech media. Like you have Hannah Murphy of the FT cited like specifically by name in this episode and, and they do this balance that I think is wise for any show or any movie to do where it is like 90 to 95% real people, real tech publications like real outlets, real banks and then you're just kind of shoehorning in the works of fiction to contextualize them. And we talked about this a little bit last week with Deutsche bank as well, but it was just overwhelming here as they're formulating their rollout strategy for tender about oh we're going to hit this podcast, we're going to do the TechCrunch event. It was just like. It was so specific in a. In a way that I admire, the way that mounts you in the world that the show wants to inhabit.

Joanna Robinson (74:58)

Jodi, anything you want to say about financial journalism or music or new wave music?

Jodie Walker (75:02)

I was just thinking, as Rob was listing off the. Everything, like hits taken by Royal bank of Scotland when. When Rishi the Chalky. That guy's chalky pinstripe. Another great fashion moment for the episode.

Rob Mahoney (75:17)

That's just free advice, though. That comes. That comes with the drugs.

Jodie Walker (75:20)

Yeah, yeah, yeah. I was forever without even all of that context. I was like, oh, huge hit with doing Forever Young with the broken ankles. They know how to play out an episode. And I'm still. I'm like, I'm struggling right now not to put my hands over my eyes, which is what I did. When the camera. Cause for a second, you're like, oh, he lived. And also, you know, speaking of the suspension, when you see Rishi jumping, you can see water.

Joanna Robinson (75:51)

The Thames is. The Thames is right there. So, like.

Jodie Walker (75:54)

So you're like, maybe.

Joanna Robinson (75:56)

I know. I was like, you're gonna hit water. How does.

Jodie Walker (75:59)

How. How do physics work? And they work like that. They work like that. If you jump, can you be waterfront.

Joanna Robinson (76:05)

On this side of the building?

Jodie Walker (76:06)

And this side of the building, is it a wraparound? This is a houseboat. And I never knew what's going on, and it wasn't. And. And, I mean, this is. This is morbid. But you're. You're. It's like, oh, no. Not the sweet relief of death.

Rob Mahoney (76:21)

No.

Jodie Walker (76:22)

In fact, a worse thing.

Joanna Robinson (76:23)

This is what the actor told Kitty Baker. Quote, you sort of see that very slight smirk on his face. I think he is at ease with where he has landed.

Jodie Walker (76:33)

And I also wondered, like, oh, he's not screaming. Has he taken enough drugs to, like, really not? He's like, oh, look at that horrific thing.

Joanna Robinson (76:43)

My feet have been shattered.

Jodie Walker (76:45)

Wow.

Rob Mahoney (76:45)

One can only hope. Jodi, welcome to the Pit. Welcome to our Waking Nightmares. Watching Body Trauma on a weekly basis.

Jodie Walker (76:51)

I'm in the Pit. No, I'm into Pit.

Joanna Robinson (76:53)

Yeah. Jodie had the information on the Rooney connection to the Pit before we were. Absolutely true, you know. All right, that is it, I think, for this episode of Industry, unless you guys had anything else you wanted to mention. No. Thank you to everyone who works on this show. Devin, Ronaldo. Dev came. Dev popped in with a Marty supreme reference, of course, for Forever Young in the chat. So, of course we should Shout out Marty Supreme. Thank you to Justin Sales for his work in this episode. Thank you to industry music supervisor Ollie White for just incredible, constant, impeccable work. And we'll be back for more coverage of Depit later this week. We also haven't we should we're trying to have an early drop of this podcast because the next episode of Industry itself is dropping early because of the Super Bowl. Ever heard of it? So that episode of Industry is dropping Friday. Our episode covering it should drop sometime thereafter. We will let you know when, but we will see you soon no matter what. Harpsichords drop on@gmail.com, prestigtvpotify.com if we got anything about, oh, I don't know, British politics, journalism, how much coke does it take so you don't feel your feet shattering or any of that Kierkegaard, you know, certainly not fashion. Jody is an impeccable source on that. I am confident locked it we know. No no no no no no.

Jodie Walker (78:17)

I request more any anyone who is also on the fashion beat of industry, please email at harpsichord strap on@gmail.com.

Rob Mahoney (78:25)

I just personally would love over the.

Jodie Walker (78:27)

In and of itself.

Rob Mahoney (78:28)

Oh yes, just big, big ticket fashion over the course of the season. I would like to see the shoulder pads rise episode by episode as as Yaz's esteem and projections in the workplace can only rise to compensate for she's.

Jodie Walker (78:40)

Like Miss J on America's Next Top Model reference. But it goes on. Season goes on.

Joanna Robinson (78:45)

I got you. All right, we will see you soon. Hopefully in Accra. I'm hoping we're getting a flight there soon and bye.