Jody Walker (2:06)

So if it's non breakfast, I will say I was sort of coveting Eric's like what looked to be a club sandwich and fries order. That that would be my typical go to. I feel like you can't get it wrong. You also can't really get it right. Um, it's never very good, but it is fun. Food in the morning. I have a great time. Room service, coffee, and just like whatever array you can usually get like a pastry basket. And even on that note, I've recently been thinking, how do I get a hold of one of those silver thermoses that they use for like in a nice hotel for the coffee service? Because those things will keep coffee hot for like four hours.

Joanna Robinson (2:46)

You want like a silver carafe?

Jody Walker (2:47)

Yeah, just like like there's work.

Joanna Robinson (2:49)

We can.

Jody Walker (2:49)

Better.

Joanna Robinson (2:50)

We can do this for Jodi.

Jody Walker (2:52)

I feel like. I feel like I have to steal it, but what you're telling me is no, that could.

Rob Mahoney (2:56)

Well, maybe you can expense it. In fact, now that it's been discussed on a podcast, it's work.

Joanna Robinson (3:00)

Can I tell you the true? True. It'll feel and taste better if you steal it. So you should.

Jody Walker (3:06)

That is where we agree, Joanna. And if I expense it and then steal it. Cut the mic. Cut the mic. I didn't say that.

Joanna Robinson (3:14)

All right, so before we get into some emails that we got from folks, Rob, can you remind folks how they can reach us with their thoughts and feelings?

Rob Mahoney (3:22)

I would love to, Joe. They can always reach us@prestigetvpotify.com but especially for industry. You should email us from. I don't know, your work email, perhaps@harpsichordstraponmail.com harpsichordstraponmail.com it's popping off. People have a lot of thoughts about industry, a lot of feelings about industry, and I welcome more of them. Although in the vein of this week, I don't even know what we should be soliciting. What is it that comes out of episode five that we need answers to?

Joanna Robinson (3:51)

I think Eric knows what he's soliciting, but I think we'll. We'll discover as we discuss what. What fun facts we might want to get some insight on from.

Rob Mahoney (4:03)

You're saying the daddies should email us in?

Joanna Robinson (4:05)

Nope. Never want to hear from the daddies ever.

Jody Walker (4:08)

Gonna go ahead and say no on that one.

Joanna Robinson (4:10)

We're gonna put a daddy. In fact, there's gonna be a daddy filter now. Filter. Putting that curse thought out in the water.

Jody Walker (4:16)

That goes for DM as well.

Rob Mahoney (4:18)

You're welcome.

Joanna Robinson (4:18)

Yes, that's a no. An absolute us. Yeah. So a couple emails just really quickly. Our listener Ian wrote in to let us know that he thought the. The. The newspaper comp. We've been sort of fishing around for, like, what this UK publication might be. We talked about how we felt kind of good about the Daily Mail comp. Ian wrote in to say, to talk about the Spectator, which is not one that I'm very familiar with. Right. But he says the Spectator is known as a highbrow but right wing publication which would love nothing less, nothing else than to undermine any labor government of the day. The current editor is an ex Tory mp, Michael Gove, and previous editors include a certain boy, Boris Johnson. That probably tells you all you need to know. So the Spectator has entered the chat. Doesn't sound like something I want to read, but sounds like something that exists, so that's good to know about. And then Jeremy. Jeremy is the one who emailed us about the Daily Mail and he. He just gave some extra intel about the Daily Mail. Said it famously supported fascism in the 1930s. Fun. And has been owned by the same family for all of that time. More recently, it has led the charge against woke immigration, LGBT and trans rights. It's read largely by old folks. The op ed from the Austrian cry Wanker. This is mostly included, so I could say Austrian Cry Winker. The op ed from the Austrian cry Rank Wanker would be pretty moderate compared to some of the other that has appeared there over the three. Over the years. One headline read hurrah for the black shirts, referencing Oswald Mosley's British Union of Fascists. So just really tremendous stuff coming out of the UK on the journalism front. Anything you guys want to say about.

Rob Mahoney (6:02)

Either of those, just email us at Austrian cry wanker@gmail.com. we're just going to. We're going to snatch that one.

Jody Walker (6:08)

Also a no, also, don't do that. Don't steal when you're working and don't do that from your work email. I'm. I'm struggling to find it in front of my face now, but there was a comment, I believe on the Ringer TV YouTube of our last episode saying that like this, I think it's Norton Media Group is the so. So it is likely that we are in fact dealing with multiple papers because it's a media group. So the best placement for each thing, the sort of more tabloidy stuff about Yaz goes to one of the papers. The more noble, you know, finance investigative journalism goes to another pa and that made a lot of sense to me.

Joanna Robinson (6:51)

And the cry Wanker op eds, those.

Jody Walker (6:54)

Go directly to my inbox, just to.

Joanna Robinson (6:56)

Jody, just to Jodi. All right, our listener SRI wrote in to talk about sort of this idea. SRI as gave her credentials as quote, I'm an American of Indian descent, though became a British citizen last year from Houston, originally married a Northern Irishman, moved here in 2011. So talking about her experience as an American and as a woman of color who's American in the UK and sort of like how she's perceived that way. She says, I'm the director of both philanthropy and alumni relations for Philanthropy is actually. I pronounce that word.

Jody Walker (7:28)

I thought we were doing the British pronunciation.

Joanna Robinson (7:30)

Philanthropic. Philanthropic for a private school, but previously worked for different charities, both in major donor corporate giving. I wanted to comment on how People keep trusting and giving money to Harper. I'd like to think that I'm pretty good at my job, but I'm not blind to the fact that British people, particularly aristocracy old money, don't mind the, quote, vulgarity of asking for money when it comes from an American. My experience being a person of color moving in these circles but not being of them myself, is that having an American accent automatically puts me outside the class system, for better or for worse. I work for a girls school that is similar to Harrow, name dropped in the last episode. And I can vouch for the fact that the people of this ilk bring up where they went to high school the way we would bring up where we went to college well into old age and often before they say where they went to university. So I thought that was a really interesting comment about this idea of like how the Americans in this show, your Erics, your Harpers, et cetera, might operate outside. We talk, we touched on this a little bit. But might operate outside of the rigid class system that exists in the UK that is so that you give yourself away by your accent and they know exactly where to put you. Whereas if you come from America, there is just something that puts you outside of that particular sort of immovable system that exists in the uk. Anything you guys want to say about that?

Rob Mahoney (8:45)

I think it also speaks in this episode to how quickly Harper goes from we need to raise more money to we need to raise more money by fraud. Right. Because it's like if all these doors are closed to her, given that she's giving herself away as an American, given the crassness of overtly asking for money in a desperate situation. Like the forcing function is they have, they have 48 hours to come up with something in order to maintain their position. Shorting, tender and, and clearly the side door that she has found is the one that is like clearly illegal. Like clearly will get them in the most trouble possible beyond the millions of dollars they already have stake. And I think this gives an insight into like why that, why she in particular would jump to that sort of conclusion relative to other characters.

Joanna Robinson (9:26)

That's interesting because I think, I thought she's point was that she's better positioned to sort of like ask for money really. And it, I thought that was the, that's the wording of her email is just like that. It's not considered vulgar because it comes from an American source. That is one person's opinion. This.

Rob Mahoney (9:42)

Got it. Maybe I misunderstood.

Joanna Robinson (9:44)

Yeah, well.

Jody Walker (9:44)

And sort of like as an American, the vulgarness precedes you. Certainly when you live outside of that class system of the uk, you lead with nothing. You know, like you don't lead with anything good or bad or pretentious or low class or anything. It's like you're just American. And a blank slate can both work in your favor and work against you. And I think for the most part, Harper finds the ways to make it work in her favor. But it's interesting thinking about that point and then thinking about Harper immediately pivoting to fraud. And Eric, who's in a somewhat similar position also as an American in London, saying, no, that's still fraud. Like we, we have other options. They're not the options you want and they're not the options that in this sort of hypothetical scenario in your head prove to your mom that you're undeniable, but they are still something that's not fraud.

Joanna Robinson (10:40)

Jody, I wasn't ready to go there yet. Sorry.

Jody Walker (10:44)

Stop thinking about it. Since she said it, I will be.

Joanna Robinson (10:47)

Charging my therapy bill to HBO this week.

Jody Walker (10:50)

Yeah, you can fill that under undeniable things.

Joanna Robinson (10:53)

Thanks so much on that. Harper friend. We got this interesting email from Rebecca, sort of about the Mad Men comps that we've been making. Rebecca was saying she thought it was curious that we put sort of like Eric in the Don Draper role and, and Harper and the Peggy role. And I, I think I was thinking of that just mainly in their sort of relationship with each other, especially like what we see in this episode. But Rebecca was saying she's been thinking of Harper more as the Don Draper. Right. She has, quote, she has nine professional lives and is always failing into a new opportunity. She's completely cut off from her emotions and trauma and uses sex as an anesthetic. She keeps getting opportunities cuz everyone thinks she's a genius, but really it's just that she's audacious. Despite the parallels I'm seeing, I think it's harder for audiences to relate to Harper than to Don for the obvious reasons. She's a ruthless black woman. Not something we're used to seeing on screen. But also we knew what Dawn's childhood trauma was early on in Mad Men, Harper's past is still a black box. This email came in before this episode. I still feel like I know nothing about her and why she is the way she is. In any case, I really hope we get some more about her family this season. We did in this episode, even though she really shuts Eric down about it like last week. So, um, on that front, I will Just say inside of this episode, as we're tracking this concept of, like, story and storytelling and narrative, Harper's the one who gets in line. We don't need proof. We finally have a compelling story to tell. Right. I've got a pitch that I can make, and I can weave a little Don Draper esque spell at this woman's conference that I'm gonna go to. Jodi, any thoughts on that?

Jody Walker (12:19)

I mean, my immediate thought is, that's such a great point. And, like, I'm. I'm. It's really recalibrating my brain a little bit, and where my brain always goes is memes. And I'm think the Don Draper meme, like, in front of the whiteboard, like, doing his. His ad pitch hands, and he's about to say something that is as stupid as it is smart. And like, yeah, that's Harper. And I'm trying to think of what her meme is like. She. Yeah, she's standing in front of a Bloomberg board just, like, manically chewing gum, and she is about to do something that is both ruinous and, you know, might make everybody tons of money.

Rob Mahoney (12:56)

I mean, it might be what we're about to see, presumably next week, in terms of her getting up on stage and trying to match Lord Muck word for word, basically, in terms of how he was able to win over an audience. I'm fascinated by this idea, though, of the story that Harper is telling and how much she herself believes it, because she's kind of convincing people, especially Eric, throughout this episode, about, oh, we should blur these lines, because these institutions are blurring these lines. What are ethics, even in this world where everyone is operating unethically? Like, does she believe that what they are doing is righteous, or does she believe that she has a story and that story is that what they are doing is righteous?

Joanna Robinson (13:36)

I think that's the story she's telling herself, and that's sort of what Eric calls her out for. Right? He's like, that sounds more true than any story I've ever told myself before. I think is like a paraphrase of what he says. But I think, you know, a movie that the creators of this show have brought up a lot as the comp for this season is Michael Clayton. And we got a comment from a listener, not an email, but a comment on either the YouTube or the Spotify video about, you know, Jim's overdose. That's not an overdose. Is a plotline from Michael Clayton where Tom Wilkinson's character Arthur, is made to appear as if he's had a drug overdose, when in fact, it's like the shady powers that be have have killed him.

Rob Mahoney (14:19)

So he was up to something because that was way too many baguettes for one man to be carrying at that point in time. So who's to say who really did what?

Joanna Robinson (14:27)

You can't OD on baguettes from. It's. It's impossible. I will not allow it.

Jody Walker (14:32)

I have affection for Harper in my heart. And so I hate to say my immediate thought, which is this, that, like Harper, I think that Harper believes in nothing. She believes in what she has to to kind of get through the day. I hate to invoke. We tell ourselves story in order to live two episodes in a row, and yet here I am. But Harper tells herself stories in order to survive, and she gets to decide what survival is like. Is. Is survival putting food on the table and just keeping yourself alive, or is survival hypothetically being undeniable to your mother who is now dead? Like, what is survival to Harper? And when they're talking about Tinder, and obviously we'll get to it, and you know, Sweet Pea is screaming in a parking lot in Accra, and they're screaming. Each lie relies on the next. I'm like, at any point is this going to click in for Harper, that this is how she's living her life and guiding her fund and doing everything. She's telling herself stories, and each story relies on the next. It doesn't matter whether they're true. It just matters whether she convinces people that they're true.

Joanna Robinson (15:41)

I totally. I totally agree with you, Jody. And I think the reason I brought up Michael Clayton was that George Clooney's character, Michael, you know, the titular character in that. In that film is like. Like an unethical crusader, right? He's not, like, he's not led by his virtue. He's led mostly by his own financial needs. And then, you know, he has. Yeah, you know, his morality comes through, but he's not a crusading good guy. And I think what we hit in this episode a number of times, like, sweet pee saying, I need this short to work. I didn't get a job. You can imagine why, you know, Harper saying, well, crucially, we're not lying to the world to profit off of it. Right? That's the story she's told herself. That that, like, hypocrisy that they sort of drill down on or are our famous owner of a Great Dane. Is that what that dog was? Massive dog.

Jody Walker (16:35)

A majestic reveal is saying, like, you.

Joanna Robinson (16:39)

Know, talking To Sweet Pea, this whole endeavor is, quote, not best led by a person who stands to be compensated. So this idea that, like, what could take down something like Tender or something, someone like the Mux or something like that, it's probably not going to be anyone led by virtue. It's probably someone who is going to get their own payday at the end of this. That there isn't, like, a good guy. You know, as I said last week, I'm always rooting for Sweet Pea, and I still am after this episode. But no one in this show is doing something because it's, quote, the right thing to do. They're all doing something so it can profit them personally. And in profiting personally, can I tell myself what I'm doing is better than the other people who are trying to profit personally? And that's where I think we find your Harpers, your Eric's, your Sweet Peas, your Kwabinas inside of this episode.

Rob Mahoney (17:32)

Yeah, I mean, they all have their reasons to be involved in this. Right. And I think it is financial gain, for certain. It's also, you know, for Harper, yet another effort to be undeniable for Eric, an effort to have an actual human connection with a person in Harper in particular. And for Sweet Pea, like, in addition to just kind of, like, avoiding everything in her life that she needs to avoid, I think the thrill of discovery at whatever the cost is kind of the drive for her more than it is actually revealing something incriminating or actually revealing something even that would make her money or give her job security. It's like she's just like an adrenaline junkie for these 48 hours in a way that I think anyone can find deeply relatable on some level.

Jody Walker (18:10)

She knocked on the fucking door, bitch.

Rob Mahoney (18:11)

She knocked on the fucking door. She did scream in the parking lot. Like, she has her kind of triumphant moment, and then she gets to go home and have the breakdown.

Jody Walker (18:18)

Yeah. And I think, like, are those things mutually exclusive? Is a different question for each person. Like, can the thing that serves the greater good and actually is right also be the thing that is good for you and improves your own life? And that kind of depends on motivations. I loved getting to know Sweet Pea more in this episode and getting that background. I felt like it was her character building. Her, like, very slow character building has been really well done. I struggled with some of Harper's character stuff this episode because it was a lot of telling. It was a lot of, like, explaining emotions from a person who we've never found to be particularly good at interpreting her own emotions. However, some of that makes sense, too, and it will always come back around, because I think Harper is someone who lives very temporarily. She's someone who's. It really struck me in this episode that she is someone who's waiting to live and she's doing things in the meantime that fill the void. And she's waiting until she's proven to her mom that she's undeniable to then start her life. But what she may not know is that she's not really building a great foundation from which to start that life. At whatever magical point she feels fulfilled. Eric has a line in this episode where, again, they're talking about, so, like, what if we prove this? What happens? And he says, so we prove Tinder is what it says it is. We get the surrogate joy. I was like, wow, what an industry phrase. We get the surrogate joy of saying, your identity is bullshit, you're a fake. We get to temporarily live in the illusion that we ourselves are built on firmer ground. And that's just. That is Harper. It's Eric, too, but he's a little bit older, a little bit wiser to.

Joanna Robinson (20:06)

Know he's a cautionary tale. He's just sort of like, is this really where you want to go? Is this how you want to model your path? Where you wind up? Where Eric is alienated from his own family, desperately trying to make connection with you because he can't make connection with his own family. And then barring that, hiring a very young looking, like, call girl and having her call him Daddy, you know what I mean? And this the way in which Eric. I will get back to the. What Harper says, but Eric talking about how things don't make him feel substantial and how they're both talking about how empty they feel and then making him.

Rob Mahoney (20:47)

Feel big, you might say.

Joanna Robinson (20:48)

Yeah. And then he says, make me feel big. I mean, it's just absolutely. This is, like, tough. This is one of the toughest. Like, this is, like, highest highs, lowest lows for Eric inside of this episode. And I agree with you, Jody. Like, I think this episode was a little overwritten in terms of the way in which people were talking, like, industry always, like, it's. No one ever talks like a normal person talks inside of industry. And that's fine. I'm not looking for reality here. But the credited writer on this episode was also credited on a couple episodes last season that I also sort of identified this tendency. So I think it's just like this writer has a tendency to write in very therapeutic Language and, like, all this sort of stuff like that. And. And when it comes out of Henry's mouth, and I can tell myself what Kit Harrington told Katie Baker, which is like, you just have to imagine that Henry's in a lot of therapy. It makes sense to me. Harper's in no therapy. So for Harper to, like, come through with insights felt very odd to me, while at the same time, I felt slapped in the face because what she was saying is, like, my entire life.

Jody Walker (21:50)

So I, like, sometimes they're bars, you know, Sometimes they mean something to me. When she tells Eric that you have no idea how lucky you are, that you have people who expect your love, demand your love, but you don't feel worthy of it, so you can't give it. Nothing between us is going to fix that. Yikes.

Joanna Robinson (22:06)

Correct.

Rob Mahoney (22:08)

But here, like, even within those bars, like, again, I like this episode fine. I did bump on the same little writing moments here and there. And in particular, it just felt very direct and very neat for an episode of industry. And it's not just that overly therapized delivery from characters you wouldn't expect it from. It's things like a character will bring up exactly what they want, and by the end of the episode, we'll get basically that exact thing, or someone will bring something up, like Sweet Peas nudes. And then we just see Eric scrolling through his email, looking at the exact thing that was brought up. The parallel conversation that were echoed from Coked Out Jim Diker last week and Kwabana this week. It's like, why are all these things happening other than to have, like, your very writerly callback moment? And I think the one that broke me was Deus Ex Auntie, who happens to be involved with the exact business we need to break open the investigation.

Joanna Robinson (23:03)

I a little bit disagree with that.

Jody Walker (23:05)

Like, I am small.

Rob Mahoney (23:07)

It is very small, apparently.

Joanna Robinson (23:08)

But, like, I. Let's talk about Kwabina, like, because I think it's really interesting how they've deployed this character. So, like, it's. It feels fairly clear to me that, you know, they knew that they were doing a story in Ghana this season, and so they, like, they cast a Nigerian actor, but, like, they cast someone who could, like, interact with this story in a different way than your, you know, very white Sweet Pea could on the streets here. And I. I don't know, Jodi, if you agree with. I felt something so familiar in this, like, very charming, very nice guy, just, like, constantly jovially undercutting Sweet Peas, like, very correct instincts and. And. And, like, Work. And, like, I was just like, this is. It was so aggravating and so familiar. And Kwabina is like, a very, like, charming and likable in many different ways character when. When she calls him out for, like, his glibness and says it's not as charming as he thinks he is. But, like, I. Her reaction when she's like, I could just not see you for the rest of the trip, and that would be okay. Like, all the little roadblocks he is, like, putting in front of her and all the little doubts that he's sprinkling along her path, and then he. Her, and then he helps her was like a real, you know, real interesting journey inside of this episode for me. Jodi, any thoughts or feelings?

Jody Walker (24:31)

Yeah, that's tough having that reflected back through your vision. I'm now, I guess, catching a few pivot points that I. I did find him frustrating. I also find him very charming. So, like, I, you know, I. It was kind of like, yeah, I was on the same ride that Sweet Pea was like, why are you here? What do I need here? But of course, she's. She's. Yes, you asked, like, do I find that familiar? Yes. The glibness of not having to worry about things that I have to worry about feels very familiar. And she calls it out. What he has said is kind of correct. That's like, what materially changes in the world if we accomplish this. Why are you staking your flag in it? The thing is, Sweet Pea knows why she's staking her flag in it. She needs this because she's been undercut by the world. That doesn't change one way or another. And what she says is what I really relate to. I've given this my full attention, which is a finite resource. That is why the outcome matters.

Rob Mahoney (25:34)

Yes.

Jody Walker (25:35)

You know, we've all found ourselves in a sunk cost fallacy, and it matters to her. So get on board if you're there to help and not just after you fuck her.

Rob Mahoney (25:45)

Well, yeah, that would be optimal. I think that what Sweet Pea is after is something earnest and is not just. I have already put so much effort into this that I now need to see it through. I think it's like the choice to care about something. The election of, like, this is what matters to me, right or wrong. Like, that choice matters. And that choice is different than just, like, following one bad bet after another. I think it's just especially juxtapose someone like Kwabina who is like, so laissez faire about the whole thing. Like, he is the epitome of, like, I'm on the work trip, and I'm just gonna, like, freewheel my way through this thing, and I'm gonna do the room service food, and I'm just, like, here for a time. Whereas Sweet Pea is here for a mission. And, like, that mission is because she's chosen to make it important to herself.

Joanna Robinson (26:28)

Well, she's chosen to, but for, like, financial reason. You know, Like, Kwabana is born to a ton of money, and she hasn't been. And, like, she put her, like, naked body on the Internet when she was 19. Totally because she needed money. And there are ways in which she has earned money in her life. And she's like, but here's another thing I'm really fudgeing smart. And this is another way in which I can earn money and perhaps feels more empowering to me than, like, having all of knowing that all of these men have, like, seen my naked body, you know, and. And attached it to my face, which I did not put my face out there. But someone else, maybe Rishi, is. Her opinion, like, did. So now it is, like, a completely different. That's not the. That's not the, you know, agreement that she made with the world when she put her body on the Internet when she was 19. But, like, she is. I really recognize in Sweet Pea this, like, conviction of I'm right, but it's not I'm right because I morally believe in right and wrong in the universe. It's like, I'm right because I need people to know that I am smart and I can be right about a thing. I don't know. What do you think, Jodi?

Jody Walker (27:36)

Well, I don't. Gosh, Weirdly, this is like reminding me of a conversation that our, you know, great friend and colleague Sophia Benoit and I had where we were basically just saying back and forth between each other. We know when we're right. Like, I know when I'm right, and I have that gut instinct, and my history tells me when the gut instinct is right. And it was interesting. I mean, that gut instinct is brought up several times in this episode. And at the end of the episode when Kwabana is with Harper, he juxtaposes his sort of, you know, higher pragmatic mind and all of its complexity complexities with the gut instinct. But I think what we see in Sweet Pea is someone who is carrying a lot of complexity in her gut instinct and why she thinks it is right for her to do this thing and pursue this thing. And it's not just Money, like, it's. She can't get a job anywhere else. That's not just money. That's livelihood. It's also reputation. And the. The within. The bit where she's explaining why it matters to Kwabina, she says, I'm gonna keep moving forward, let the distance grow between me and the event, Let time do the work. And that's. I don't know how if you're a Kwabina, you hear someone say something like that and you're like, I might still know better. It's like, let time do the work. Yeah, like, she's got a short term plan, a long term plan, and some of that is gonna get messed up along the way, no matter what. Um, but she. Yeah, she really strikes me differently than almost any other character on the show because she just strikes me as thoughtful. Um, and there are a lot of thoughts that characters on this show are afraid to have, and they simply don't have them for that reason, for fear. And I think she really allows herself to think about the difficult things and then pursue the choices that she makes.

Joanna Robinson (29:35)

And I. I think the way that she interacts with her power is really interesting inside of this episode because we know. We know how she got information from Jonah in a way that she's, like, very used to wielding her power. We see her kind of try that with Tony Day. Right. We'll talk about Tony Day in a second. But, like, you know, she's like, you know, you can just call me any time if you want to talk. And it's strategic.

Rob Mahoney (29:58)

Lip bite.

Joanna Robinson (29:59)

It just, like, does not land with him the way that.

Jody Walker (30:01)

And even before that, she kind of strikes this, like, emotional thing of being like, oh, they must take good care of you out here if you're doing that kind of like. Well, obviously they don't. So, you know, like, she is pursuing a very different path.

Joanna Robinson (30:15)

And then I thought it was really interesting that, you know, after she has this, like, horrible assault experience in the bathroom, like, she comes back and her approaching Kwabina in this, like, you know, unbuttons a couple buttons on the linen blazer, like, sort of has this conversation with him that leads to sex at her instigation. Felt like this is. This is the fastest way she knows how to reclaim power in a situation where she feels powerless, right? That she's just sort of like, what. What do you. What's your type? What do you like? Oh, it's me. Okay. Like, what. What can I get here? That feels powerful to me. It's not something that she's like long term planning. It's not like I need Kwabina under my thumb. It's just like I need to. My. My interpretation was I need to be. Feel powerful and in control in this moment.

Rob Mahoney (31:06)

Yeah.

Jody Walker (31:06)

As someone who seeks control through data collection myself, I. That's a lot, a lot more than the sex aspect of it, which is something that we see with Yaz a lot. It is. I mean, she. She literally says, I want to paint a picture of the people who have seen me. Like, she. And. And he is one of them. So she is collecting that data, she's getting those data points. How did you find yourself at me. And then the sex, which is definitely part of it as well. But that was such a. Yeah, it was a strange scene where I was like, why is she doing it? And I don't know. I think that time will tell whether I couldn't tell in the moment if she knew why she was doing it or if she was sort of completely propelled by ID in a really intense situation. I mean, you could hardly be in a more intense situation than she was in and absolutely high on adrenaline and a dirty martini. But, you know, you're always sort of like, in this show that has so much sex and so many squelching noises, you're always sort of like girding your loins for who's gonna fuck and are kind of like, please, no, please don't do it. And they were the two that did it this week.

Joanna Robinson (32:14)

Oh, yeah, they were.

Rob Mahoney (32:15)

I mean, look, the scene where she's assaulted in the bathroom is terrifying and I thought executed to exactly that effect. For her to then walk out and not just go through this entire conversation to reclaim power in exactly the way you're talking about Joe. But, like, it did feel revealing that her instigation of like reclaiming that power was bringing up the newts. Right. Was like channeling this one thing that's already been so painful to her to like challenge Quabbin on like, that point specifically. I really don't know what to make of that other than. I mean, she's clearly still going through a lot in terms of understanding that many of the people she has worked with will work with whatever, have basically seen her naked to this point and that clearly it's a dividing point in a lot of her life, including with her mother. Like, of all things that she would do, like, we know that we've seen her charm other people, as you said, Joe. And like the implication of her relationship with Jonah in other ways, of all the things she could say and do. Why would she lead with, you've seen me naked through this thing. That is intensely painful for me personally.

Joanna Robinson (33:16)

I think it's. Again, I think that's so interesting. What if the Ghislaine Maxwell documentary I watched is. Does come in handy this week? Like a lot of the survivors of, you know, that testified in the Epstein case talked about, there's this very specific thing with these, like, shoes that they owned that Epstein had bought for them and how they wore them and made the decision to wear them constantly, to continually engage in this thing that happened to them and not sort of shove it in the back of the closet. And I. Which was like an incredibly painful sort of definitely a hot bummer thing for me to bring up on this podcast right now. But just that idea of, like, directly engaging with something that has happened to you that is traumatic is something that a lot of survivors do in complicated and varied ways. You know what I mean? And so it's not one to one for any singular person, but I think cutting from that scene to a character like Eric, a character who we have seen ends the episode in a really rough way, as far as I'm concerned. But, like, in that conversation with Harper is like, the best version of Eric, the most, like, genuinely paternal version of Eric that we can occasionally glimpse. And then to say, even Eric is staring at Sweet Pea's tits. And not only that, but like, in an email where it's like, right next to her, like, LinkedIn quality, you know, so it's not just like. It's just like juxt right next door to something. And I just, like, I hear what you're saying, Rob, about the neatness of this episode, but that cut really worked for me because it was just like, we're spent so much time. This is like the Sweet Pea episode, and we spent so much time in this episode with her thoughts, with her emotions, with her bravery, with her ingenuity, with all this sort of stuff like that. And then cut to Eric just looking at her tits, and it was just like a real. This episode slapped me several times, and that was one of those. Jodi, any. Any thoughts about that?

Jody Walker (35:18)

That's a great way to describe it. Yeah, this. This episode was slapping me around a little bit. Yeah. I think hearing you describe that about the survivors and the shoes, it's like, I think no matter what, we've all been in situations where something really bad has happened and the instinct is to want to forget about it. And, you know, in your mind that. That it not only won't work, but, like, it's not the thing that you should do. You need to be able to think about hard things or they will slap you in the face later. But always deciding on that line between whether am I honoring this thing that happened to me by thinking about it and giving it thought, or am I poking at the wound. Always having to think about that is an assault. And it's, you know, is. Is further harm and is difficult and is like a burden to bear. And I think that Sweet Pea is. And this is pretty fresh. Is always thinking about that. Like, do I get out in front of this? Do I make it mine by talking about it? Do I remind people of it by talking about it? And always having to think about it is extremely exhausting. That's what she says. That's what they say to Tony Day, like, you're the second most exhausted person as at Tinder because you're so burdened by all of this. And Sweet Pea is actually maybe the only exhausted person at Towstern because she is the only one thinking about anything.

Joanna Robinson (36:44)

Before we move off this Sweetpea Kwabana exchange, I do want to mention because we've been talking about sort of this idea of like, proximity to white power. You know, this thing that Kwabina says right before he talks to her about his, like, you know, porn curated preference. He says, like, forgive me, Dr. Umar, and just like, for some context, in case people don't know, you know, this is a person who, who speaks out a lot about a variety of issues, but one of them, maybe perhaps most controversially, is interracial couples. And this is a quote, quote, the white woman for the black man is a white surrender flag. He holds up to the white power structure to say, quote, I am broken and I'm here for being taken. Sharp stuff from Dr. Umar. This is. This was a subject of a lot of discussion, but, like, this is something that is present for this season of television. It's just sort of like as we're talking about fascism and white power and all this sort of stuff like that, and having that invoked inside of this scene for this character, these characters who are not directly part of that story, but it is present of mind for this entire season of television, I thought was, hey, another fucking slap from this episode of television.

Rob Mahoney (37:57)

I mean, absolutely. So especially in an episode that is from top to bottom, filled with all of the ways in which we are programmed to do the things that we do. Of course, some of those are gonna be complicated, like giant structural, societal level problems like institutional racism for Example and the way that kind of like channels us through, I guess, pornography, but a million other kinds of little feedback loops that we're a part of to think that we want things just because we've been essentially like, structured in our lives to want them?

Jody Walker (38:29)

Yeah. That line from Jim on his coke rant last week really struck like, has stuck with me about that. We're given so much, you know, so many conveniences that make us want things, but not the things we want to want. And that's, it's, that's the kind of thing where you see these characters in extreme situations dealing with it. But it also hit home with me, like, am I wanting the things that I want? Am I wanting the things that I want to want? And where do those things overlap?

Rob Mahoney (39:04)

Yeah.

Joanna Robinson (39:04)

Am I wanting the things that I've been told by capitalism, marketing, social media, et cetera, et cetera?

Jody Walker (39:10)

And by wanting them, am I preventing myself from actually wanting the things that I want to want? Like the things that I see as good and whole and worthwhile and worthy of my, you know, finite attention? Am I not ultimately wanting the right things because of the convenience of all the things that are served to me because capitalism wants me to want them?

Rob Mahoney (39:33)

Well, and that level of surging and ultimately like brainwashing is what's happening is what leads someone like Eric to sit in a room with his daughters and feel unfulfilled, to feel like they this should matter to me, but it doesn't because I'm out here chasing the high of I want to be celestial. I want to tap into something celestial. I think maybe if he just quieted that part of his mind that needs to be self destructive and chasing things at all times, then he might be able to tap into that. But seems a little too far gone. Our guy Eric.

Jody Walker (40:04)

It's time to throw your lash curler away. Seriously. Lancome's new Curl Goddess Mascara. Keep your lashes curled and volumized. From the pre game to the after party, this fast setting curl and volume mascara gives you up to 30 hours of wear with no way down.

Joanna Robinson (40:20)

You know what?

Jody Walker (40:21)

Curls really do have more fun. Shop Lancome Curl Goddess Mascara now on Amazon.

Sponsor/Ad Voice (40:29)

This episode is brought to you by Scout Motors. You don't change the game by standing on the sidelines. You do it by building something new. Iconic in the 70s and reimagined for today, the all new Scout Terra and Scout Traveler are engineered from the ground up with advanced capability and bold ingenuity. Build brand new for what's next. Opposing defense says Take note. Join the waitlist@scoutmotors.com Concept vehicles not available for sale. Joining the waitlist does not guarantee purchase. Visit scoutmotors.com for details. This episode is brought to you by AMC. You do not want to miss. Rise of the 49ers, the limited series event premiering February 1st and 2nd. Expansion exclusively on AMC and AMC executive produced by Tom Brady, the docu series charts the legendary rise of the San Francisco 49ers from underdogs to five time Super bowl champions in the 80s and 90s. It features interviews with Joe Montana, Jerry Rice and Ronnie Lott, as well as never be seen archival footage. Rise of the 49ers premiering February 1st and 2nd. Visit amcplus.com to start your free trial now.

Joanna Robinson (41:32)

Jodi, can I take you to Fashion Corner where you are queen? As you mentioned before we started recording today, you made a reference in our group chat about linen blazers. I'm gonna tell you what I thought and then I want to hear what you think.

Jody Walker (41:48)

Okay?

Joanna Robinson (41:48)

So Sweet Pea is wearing a very specific look in both in all of her outfits that she wears here. To me, it read like late 90s female empowerment suits to me. The like large gold buttons more than anything else on, on the button down blazer. And so in my head, when I was like going to like sort of 90s crime caper movies that, that, you know, the people who, who are making the show could be inspired by, I was like, oh, Pelican Brief. Like, this is Julia Roberts running around in Pelican Brief, blah, blah. And then I looked up Pelican Brief and I was like, actually she doesn't wear anything like this in Pelican Brief at all. But I why am I envisioning Julia Roberts in this sort of like collarless button down sort of thing? And then I was like, that's her big mistake. Huge outfit in Pretty Woman. Like, that's what that outfit is. That's her actually. That's her call girl outfit. And also in this episode, Tony Day says, sweet Pee Golightly, your name is as like, almost as memorable as you are. And like this is. We haven't talked about this. We haven't talked about this this season. But like, this is a Holly Golightly Breakfast at Tiffany's, who is another very famous call girl sort of reference. So that's sort of like where my mind went on Fashion Corner. But I'm curious if the linen, the linen blazer look from, from Sweet Pea took you anywhere else inside of this episode.

Jody Walker (43:09)

Well, it's so Interesting. Well, and especially invoking Julia Roberts because the fashion doesn't do it. But spiritually, her fashion and the sort of air that she's taking on stomping around doing the white knight, literally knocking on doors is of course completely Aaron Brocko.

Rob Mahoney (43:29)

Without a doubt.

Joanna Robinson (43:30)

Yeah.

Jody Walker (43:30)

Which is, which is, you know, said outright in the episode when she marches into Tony Day's office after they've said that they're gonna snooker him and snaps those sunglasses off. I mean, I don't think we ever saw Erin Brockovich wear a linen blazer, but we did see her wear cosplay blazers and, you know, cosplay something different than what she feels that she is. And this episode also calls on the sort of like, what does Eric say, like, image of a hooker and that juxtaposition between what we see in our minds, which is the Erin Brockovich, like how she actually dresses in the beginning of the movie when every dress is zippered down for the cleavage. But, like, are we not all selling something even when we're in a linen blazer? And shouldn't we all dream of being the movie version of Aaron Brockovich, sort of like, you know, fighting for the little guy? I, I, I do think that Sweet Pea looked more, she looked less like she was wearing a costume than Yaz sometimes does in her blazers. In her blazers. But she is wearing a costume. And she's also sort of like doing safari chic when she, you know, arrives in like, linen is breathable, but a three piece linen suit is still a little warm for the occasion.

Joanna Robinson (44:55)

Yes, a lot I do. So I want to mention something on the casting front with Tony Day, Stephen Kimmel Moore is an actor. I think he has a perfect face for like an extremely pale ginger who has been in Ghana for the last 15 years. You know, like, you can just like see every freckle in line. You know that. Jodie, you are nodding at me as a, as a fellow ginger. You know, it's like to be on the sun. No SPF high enough. But also, this is an actor who I first saw in the Stephen Fry movie Bright Young Things, which came out, I don't know, a couple decades ago. Incredible top tier cast, like an early James McAvoy, an early Michael Sheen, like, just like all the creme de la creme of the Brits that you could possibly want. Peter o' Toole's here, Richard E. Grant's here, Harriet Walters here, Stephen Bry. This is based on Bright Young Things, is based on the Evelyn Waugh novel Vile Bodies. But in, in Last week's episode. And I wrote it down because I was like, oh, Whitney said bright young things attract bright young things. And so like, I don't know that they were like, get me the guy.

Jody Walker (46:03)

From Bright Young things.

Joanna Robinson (46:04)

But I. That story, which is about sort of the like coke addled, champagne fueled youth, well to do youth of in the UK between the wars and how high they flew and how much they crashed is definitely something that could be on. Like all of Evelyn Waugh's stuff could definitely be on the mind of the creators as they're. As they're trying to like track these high flying, coke snorting, you know, young kids through this financial world and what. How who's gonna fly and who's gonna crash and are we all gonna crash? I don't know, but that's like, that was something that was on my mind. People might know him better from History Boys, which was sort of a bigger deal, but I just, I thought he was perfect casting here. Rob, how did you enjoy this particular character?

Rob Mahoney (46:58)

I thought he was wonderful. I mean, it's like just the right amount of slime too, where it's like you can see how this character got into this position, but also why he would want to extricate himself from it and insulate himself from it as quickly as humanly possible. And in particular, like his interactions with Sweet Pea, where he really only calls her. I would say he's not responding to her implications in telling him to call her in the first place, but almost like he's so curious about her being such a bad liar that he's like wondering why she would possibly be here and like for that to be the grounding of their relationship, which we should say. Sweet Pea, for all of her determination, I think at best has like a half baked plan and a very underdeveloped backstory as far as like explaining to people what she is doing here, but walks into it with enough purpose and he responds to it with enough desperation that it's like we're seeing people being brought together in other circumstances when they would basically never have time for each other or never take each other seriously. But who else is he gonna turn to now that Jim is dead? And contrary to what he says in this episode, I believe he knows that Jim is dead and that his really one lifeline out of here has now been severed or coked out or fentanyl doubt or whatever. The process of that is just a. Just a really fascinating character to drop into the mix given everything that he can do for Stern. Taos certainly but really just more the ways in which he tests Sweet Pea. And then her plan kind of relies on him, but also, as Harper tells it, maybe it doesn't even matter if he ultimately flips and whistleblows or not.

Joanna Robinson (48:27)

What do you think, Jodie?

Jody Walker (48:28)

Oh, I think the line of the episode. Of an episode of Many Lines for me is when he says, do you ever think that you've gotten yourself in a little bit over your station here? And she says, never in my face fucking life, sir. And she's lying. She's lying through her teeth. But a great way to be over your head is to think you're in over your head. And, like, she says, like, she's pulling a Harper. She's just got to kind of keep pushing through and let time do the work. But I. I think that you're right. Like, that is his interest in her is like, who is this person who is so clearly in over their head but is not acknowledging it and is shaking some of the trees that I wish that I could shake, and could we shake them together or are they going to shake down on me ultimately, like, seeing this very sort of downtrodden, weathered man versus this bright young thing who's said. And of course she says, never in my fucking life, sir. You fancy paying for my nose job, too? I know what you did was. Yeah, it was a great episode for, like, being away from our main characters a lot, you know, like, for finding these other people who are just as interesting. And when they walk into the sort of, I guess, the hotel in Accra, and the music, like, the very quintessential industry music from, like, the very first episode starts playing. Oh, you know, a fear in my chest and a twinkle in my eye. Like, we've got our new class here. Finally they're cementing.

Joanna Robinson (50:07)

It gave me chills when that music cue kicked in. And I think that, like, what's so fascinating about this Tony Day character to me is that the way in which he's able to see through Sweet Pea, who, I agree with you, Rob, is not. When you're on the con, like, it's good to have some sort of backup story for your story or whatever. But the way he sees through, like, he's not dumb, right? He's not wildly incompetent and dumb. So I'm interested why Whitney feels like he needs to constantly be on a plane to Accra because, like, so Tony is clearly wobbly in some degree because he's, you know, taking calls from Jim Diker. Like, there's something going on There, but he's not so stupid that he needs constant oversight from Whitney. So what is it that Whitney feels like he needs his attention constantly in Ghana? I guess is my, my curiosity, you.

Rob Mahoney (51:00)

Know, that, that felt like it might be more of the hand holding around the multilevel bribing that has to go on in order to perpetrate this level of fraud. And Whitney would be, Whitney would be great at it. You know, it's like he is exactly slick enough to pull off something like that. Whereas like Tony, you're right, he's like, he's not dumb. He's clearly aware of his situation. He opted into this, I think probably pretty clear eyed knowing what he was doing. But doesn't necessarily strike my, strike me as like the operator that Whitney is in terms of getting people to agree to do something illegal across the board at multiple levels of like government and regulation and like all of these like auditors within, you know, within ACCRA itself.

Jody Walker (51:40)

Yeah, I think that's right. I mean I, I, I think he's, he's going there a lot for the fraud and that when you, yeah, put.

Rob Mahoney (51:47)

These two men, you know, maybe the room service chicken wings. Like I don't want to rule out any possibilities as far as why Whitney would be dropping in.

Jody Walker (51:54)

Yeah, that hotel looked nice. Who knows what they might have there? I think the, yeah, well, and Whitney is someone, he is the only person at that company who knows what's going on. Jonah didn't know none of his second or thirds know now. And the kind of control that you have to feel in that situation is like he might not be needing to go to Ghana, but He's doing these 24 hour trips also. Certainly wearing himself ragged as the number one exhausted person at Tinder to keep the lie go, you know, the next lie brings the next lie and you just have to keep them going. And he is spinning a lot. He is, he is keeping a lot of plates spinning.

Joanna Robinson (52:41)

I was, yeah, that's exactly the image I was thinking of. Okay, I don't have a needle drop corner this week, but I do want to talk about the title of this episode, right. Eyes Without a Face, which is the, you know, this is like the Billy Idol track that Kwabina sings at karaoke. And then we hear it again when Sweet Pea is crashing from her adrenaline high at the end of the episode. That song is titled that based off of a 1960s French horror film, Eyes Without a Face. Les yeux en visage. But like basically a plus, Joe.

Rob Mahoney (53:15)

I mean, come on, ladies and gentlemen, Standing ovation, please.

Joanna Robinson (53:21)

But the plot of that movie is about sort of really creepy dude whose daughter gets disfigured in an accident and he starts killing women, young women all over Paris, I believe, stealing their faces and trying to give his daughter, like, a facial transplant. So killing women who look like his daughter. So basically face swapping young women to try to restore his daughter to her previous. So could we think of any way in which that might apply here to, like, our guy Eric and his various daughter figures in this episode? Be that his daughter who got expelled, be that Harper, or be that the. The girl who calls him daddy at.

Rob Mahoney (54:04)

The end of the episode.

Joanna Robinson (54:05)

That is like, one thing that I'm thinking about, but also the like sort of Potemkin Village description that we have about what Whitney is doing in Tinder, right? We're just swapping. And we're swapping as we're face swapping where the money's gone, just so that you can't follow it very well. And then I was also thinking about sweet Pea, like, eyes without a face. This idea that, like, Eric looking at her, just her tits and her face isn't in that, like, photo at all. And it's just sort of like that. That's. That's all he's looking at. And then also just last week's episode title, which was 1000 utes and one Maryland Rob and I had been, like, discussing. I was like, I was not to quote my cousin Vinnie, but I was like, what's a ute? I was like, is a ute like, exactly what I think it is, as I learned from my cousin Vinnie? Or is this something else? Rob came up with like a UK Urban Dictionary, like, sort of definition of sort of like, it's a youth, right? And we. Kwabina says in this episode, 1000 Utes and Shies, which is like young men in balaclavas basically were involved in that sexual Guinness World Record breaking extravaganza that we talked about in last week's episode. Is it weird to have, like, heard that that phrase in this episode be the title of last week's episode? Rob, you were talking about that, like, weird parallelism. But, like, is there any part of you that thinks, like, part of this episode was once in that episode, or does that not really strike you as weird?

Rob Mahoney (55:29)

I had that thought that maybe it was the kind of thing where either they were conceived of as like a call and response two episode sequence, or it had been kind of chopped up and rearranged or some of the dialogue maybe had been transposed from one episode to the other. I think I settle on no, though, just because structurally this is such a field trip episode. And I don't even know how you would interplay this with some of the other plots. Like, it feels like such a standalone kind of thing happening, but it definitely felt odd to revisit it so explicitly. And maybe that's something that if you're the kind of viewer who isn't looking at an episode title, you don't necessarily care about, but at minimum, different characters are talking about literally the exact same online pornographic event in almost identical terms. That feels a little uncanny to me.

Jody Walker (56:14)

I don't know. But it is a. It's a through line of the season. I mean, it's how we get introduced to Tinder is the ways in which they interact with the OnlyFans like sites. And so much of the conversation, which the cokey stuff that Jim is saying at the end of last episode is sort of much better intellectualized between the conversation with Sweet Pea and the sort of, you know, commodification of sex and the transactional way in which we treat a lot of relationships and human behavior now because of these convenience factors. And so I think it would have been a little heavy handed to have both of those scenes in. In one episode, but I like the continuation of the thought into this episode.

Joanna Robinson (57:07)

Jodi, is there anything in this episode that we haven't talked about yet that you want to make sure we talk about?

Jody Walker (57:11)

You know, I. I feel like maybe we're. We're being kind of tough on Kwabana, like, we're being kind of tough on him when, you know, he. He's not one of our worster characters, but he is young. And when he. After all of that, when he gets back and he talks to Harper and that. That comparison between the way that Sweet Pea talks to Harper. Yeah, the debrief. And the debrief of how he talks to Harper. However, this isn't what I wanted to talk about. But they both say something along the lines of like, have I made my pain clear?

Joanna Robinson (57:48)

Yeah, fuck you, pain.

Jody Walker (57:49)

Do you understand me? And what I'm asking for here, which is sort of a sign that they both are under the impression that if they make themselves clear enough that it. That she'll treat them like humans. And that is unlikely. Sweet, sweet spirits. But when he tells Harper that Sweet Pea was like a dog with a bone, she was tenacious. And he says it's really admirable how she's recovered from all that shit she went through. And the idea that because someone is tenacious, because someone is resilient in the face of challenge, that they have recovered is often a thing put upon women, that because they keep going in the face of challenge, it means that actually that challenge is okay and that treating them poorly is okay. And thinking that tenacity means recovery, it just loops in with all the Harper stuff, all the Sweet Pea stuff, that if we make ourselves undeniable, if we achieve so much, if we have enough tangible and obvious success, if we make enough money, then no one can hurt us because we are undeniable. But someone can still punch you in the face in a bathroom. You can still fall down the stairs chasing an Amazon package. Like, no matter how much you chase being undeniable, life will still happen. How well are you taking care of yourself in the process? Generally, the answer is not very well in this show. And I really hope. I mean, I really liked seeing Sweet Pea get home and just fall apart. My move in that situation. Situation would have been to look at myself in the mirror if I did it. That always really helps get the. Get the, you know, cathartic tears going.

Rob Mahoney (59:40)

Sure.

Jody Walker (59:41)

But seeing her acknowledge what an awful situation she'd just been in, she'd already been in is important. I think it's important for her, and it's important for us to, like, see her do it.

Rob Mahoney (59:54)

Completely.

Joanna Robinson (59:54)

Really loved. Yeah, I love that Harper and Sweepy interaction where she's, like, forthright. It's clear that she does feel bad about, like, having sex with Kwabinah, but is sort of, like, sort of putting a shell up of, like, I didn't know if you were casual, but I just thought. I thought I should tell you, no, you can't come in. We're not friends. Right. Like, you know, you're my boss. Like, fuck you, pay me. But, like. And I. I liked Harper's reaction to that, bearing in mind that, like, early this season, Harper was quite forthright with Kwabina about the fact that she had sex with Whitney. So, like. And the fact that he didn't tell her. Right. He didn't have that conversation with her, but Sweet Pea did. All of those dynamics were really fascinating to me. Rob, anything you want to zero in on?

Rob Mahoney (60:41)

I mean, I want to hit both of these if we can, just. Because I think as far as the Sweet Pea Harper interaction, it felt like she came back in a different place in their relationship from this trip. And I can't quite put my finger on why, because, I mean, we're, what, two episodes removed from Them being spreadsheet detectives together and her telling Harper, like, the only reason I'm here is because you're giving me your word personally as somebody who I guess we care about each other to here where it's like, miss me with your pastoral compassion. And I'm trying to obviously. Look, she's been through a fuck ton on this trip, alone in particular, and who knows what else has happened in the meantime for her. But I am trying to square why that relationship feels so different other than in a very tough place coming off of this like, very strange trip. Like, maybe that is reason enough. I don't know.

Joanna Robinson (61:28)

To me, I read it as like her trying to put distance. Like I didn't actually betray a friend by like this guy that she hooks up with. Like, we aren't friends, you know, Like, I felt like she was putting some distance between them inside of that moment to. I don't think. I personally don't think she has anything to feel guilty about. But if she decided she was like, if I decide that Harper and I are actually like friends and. Or spreadsheet detective buddies or whatever the case may be, then having sex with Kwabina was not the move. But if I decide that that's not our relationship, then I can tell myself it wasn't that bad of a thing to do.

Rob Mahoney (62:06)

You know, that part definitely tracks also.

Jody Walker (62:08)

With the sort of rejection, the returning from the trip and rejecting the pastoral compassion that maybe she had kind of liked in some sort of mentor way before is circling around these ideas that we've been dealing with with Sweet Pea of control and choices. And it comes from Harper saying to her, I'm so sorry that I let this happen to you. And I have to assume that Sweet Pea's thought in that moment is, I let this happen to me. It was not good, it was not safe, but I chose it. And she literally says, don't take this away from me.

Joanna Robinson (62:42)

Yeah, I loved that.

Jody Walker (62:43)

I think part of that is the choice. The choices that she's made, they are hers. I'm sure that's a lot of what she feels around the onlyfans leak or the siren leak is those were my choices. Me, you know, feeling some regret about them now doesn't make those choices any different. They were mine. They were that of a 19 year old self, whatever. But also that her choices, which may have been bad, also have them in the position that they're in now. And she and Harper can't take that away from her either.

Joanna Robinson (63:14)

Absolutely.

Jody Walker (63:15)

And she will.

Joanna Robinson (63:17)

Right? No, I love all of that. And again, this is this Ghislaine Maxwell documentary I watched, which is on Netflix. You can watch. It has, like, a very false happy ending because actually more things happens inside of the case than the documentary covered. But it was so fascinating to hear from, like, there are so many people inside of this case who were underage. And then there's like, all the women who were, like, 18 or 19 at the time, and all of them don't have a case that they can bring. And all of them are saying, all of them that were interviewed like, you know, I was 19, I was 21. Whatever the case may be, is like, this was my choice, my decision, but I'm showing up to support these young women. And I just think it's such a, like, arbitrary, horrible line to draw that, like, you know, you're 17 and. And 11 months and you've been violated and you're 18 and you haven't, you know, and that's just like, that conversation from those women. You know, the fact that Sweet Pea was 19 is like, you know, I made this choice. There is an empowerment in it, but there's also this, like, false adulthood inside of it that is just, like, really painful to grapple with.

Rob Mahoney (64:27)

I think especially Joe, as all of these characters we're talking about, from Harper to Tony Day to Kwabina, in his own way, are like, trying to minimize what Sweet Pea is doing or minimize the role that she's playing or the agency she's exercising in her own life. And it's like the absolute mind fuck of I was adult enough to put nudes of myself on the Internet, technically, legally, and I'm gonna be. That's gonna be held against me for the rest of my life. But God forbid I actually wanna try to prove something or God forbid I wanna try to work in this other way, and no one takes it out.

Joanna Robinson (64:59)

And then I'm Aaron fucking Brockovich.

Rob Mahoney (65:00)

I mean, seriously. And then Kwabina comes back and it's like, Jodi, when you brought up, like, the dog and the bone comment, like, there was so much like, there, there pat on the head in the way that he was talking about it. And I think really, the smoking gun is when Kwabina, someone who, from everything we've seen, doesn't really care about tenacity, is praising her tenacity. It's like, that's not a word or a concept that means a lot to him. And so it's like, it's such a hollow compliment, the idea that he's saying, like, look at how Doggedly she pursued this thing that isn't really important to me, but sure was good for her. Nice job.

Jody Walker (65:32)

Well, and when you look at Harper and Sweet Pea, we don't know a ton about Sweet Pea's background. She talks about her mom a little bit in this episode and. But these ages that you're talking about, Joe, 18, 19, when you're still in a really vulnerable situation, but for some people, you have been put in the situation of needing to take care of yourself financially now, and for some people, you have not been put in that situation. And the choices that we make at those ages because we have to be able to take care of ourselves are just taken from very different worlds for some people. And the structures and the systems around us, and that's. Yeah, like, that's when those vulnerabilities really come into play and the choices that we have to make that don't entirely feel like our own.

Joanna Robinson (66:14)

One last thing I want to hit is so we get a margin call inside of this episode. Our guy Kenny does a margin call. There is a 2011 film margin call, and it does not have Margot Robbie in a bathtub, but it does have Paul Bettany in a really nice suit. So, you know, there's something for everyone out here in the world. But I want to hit a couple things from. It's a great movie. J.C. chandor. It's a. It's a. It's a great movie. Does it. Will it help you understand what a Margin Call is? No, but I think the context is pretty clear here. Like, you guys are over leveraged. You need. You need to show up with more money or else, you know, we're gonna dissolve, you're gonna take a huge loss on your, on your short here. Right. But there are a couple. Margin Call is less of like a great movie and more of like a few, like, absolutely knockout scenes, like, sort of assembled together. And I just want to highlight two of them really quickly in case anyone wants to watch Margin Call on a. On a Friday evening. Stanley Chucci's character, whose name is Eric, has this incredible scene where he's basically involved in this. In this massive financial scandal. He's not responsible, but he is involved. And he talks to Paul Bettany about the fact that, like, in his previous life, he built a bridge. Like, he was an engineer and he built a bridge. And he talks about the way in which this bridge saved all of these people so much commute time. And he calculates all the hours that these people in this community saved because he built this bridge. And I was thinking about that a lot when I was talking when like Eric and Harper were talking about feeling empty and the nothingness, the like, this is a. This is an industry of like fake accomplishments. There's money at the end of this, but there's. You haven't built anything, you haven't made anything. You've just engaged in this like capitalistic pageantry and there's nothing that you can show for it at the end of the day, unless you are the rare sort of like healthy work, life balance sort of finance, bro. Which industry would have you believe? I don't know. Who's that? Anyone who off in the Silicon Valley, I guess. But I would, I would say no, no. Having not even a lot of time with the Silicon Valley bros. The other one is Jeremy Irons plays this character who's modeled off the president of Lehman Brothers. This whole thing is modeled off of like what happened with Lehman Brothers with the, with the 2008 mortgage crash. This is his great speech that Jeremy Irons gives at the end of this movie. This movie also has Kevin Spacey in it. Just fair warning. But anyway, Jeremy Irons says, when did you start feeling so sorry for yourself? It's unbearable. What, so you think you might have put a few people out of business today? That's all for not. But you've been doing that every day almost 40 years, Sam. And if this is all for naught, then so is everything out there. It's just money. It's made up pieces of paper with pictures on it so we don't have to kill each other just to get something to eat. It's not wrong. And it's certainly no different today than it's ever been. But just this idea of like, what we're doing is so made up and that is what this whole, you know, we're engaging in journalism and the tech world and a bunch of other industries that, you know, I would argue if you're a journalist, you do have something to do show for your work. But like inside of the world of finance, it is just this incredible shell game that can leave you feel so. Feeling so empty inside because it's just. You're not actually building anything at the end of the day. Yeah. And that this is why you have to create all these stories for yourself. All these, like, you have to weave all these tales and all these narratives of like, how important it is, what you're doing, how virtuous it is, or, you know, et cetera, et cetera, or fill yourself with, you know, to invoke the episode title from two weeks ago. Like, all these precious things that matter to you, be it a Hitler painting or whatever the case may be, all these things that you amass around you that shows you that you were here and you existed and you lived a life.

Jody Walker (70:08)

Oh, yeah, that legacy. That legacy is complete.

Joanna Robinson (70:11)

That's for you, Jodie. That's right.

Jody Walker (70:13)

And the line from this episode, you know, with whispered sort of wonderfully by Eric, the thing was nothing. Yeah, no shit. None of these things are things. The things are nothing. And Eric, Harper. You know, Eric gets Harper a couple times. Harper gets him when he is just sort of opining for how his relationship with his children should be celestial and metaphysical. It's like, there's nothing celestial about finance. And she says it's surely not lost on you that you picked a hyper transactional career where the transactions aggregate to zero.

Joanna Robinson (70:50)

Yeah, exactly.

Jody Walker (70:51)

Exactly what you're saying, Joe.

Joanna Robinson (70:53)

Exactly. Anything else you want to add, Rob, to any of this?

Rob Mahoney (70:56)

Yeah, we haven't dug into that specific exchange between Harper and Eric that much in terms of, like, the one, because.

Joanna Robinson (71:04)

I don't want to go to therapy.

Rob Mahoney (71:05)

Well, well, I'm sorry I'm dragging you back.

Jody Walker (71:08)

It's part of being a podcaster, Joanna. You just gotta do it on the mic.

Rob Mahoney (71:11)

It's true.

Joanna Robinson (71:12)

All right.

Rob Mahoney (71:13)

This part is complimentary, I'm sorry to say, but yeah, I think the combination of, yes, the like, wanting to prove something to your now dead mother, but also the like, what does it mean to be a good or bad boss? I learned it from watching you. Like, and I think Harper ultimately, even before she reveals to Eric that her mother has died. I mean, giving him an absolute undressing. As much as you can do that to a man in a robe for basically no reason. I mean, like, he. I wouldn't say that Eric has been incredibly effective in his capacity at Stern Tao as of yet, but he did put up money. He is footing the bill for their office. Like, he is participating in a kind of way.

Joanna Robinson (71:51)

And paying for the chicken wings, baby.

Rob Mahoney (71:53)

At bare minimum, paying for some very expensive chicken wings. And Harper is saying, like, you're useless to me effectively at this point. And I mean, if we're all being honest about it, I'm sure just projecting a lot of stuff about everything she's thinking and going through with her relationship with her mom too.

Joanna Robinson (72:07)

Yeah, that was just a lash out because she got a call from her estranged brother about her dead mom. That's a great point though, Jodi. Anything you wanna add to that?

Jody Walker (72:14)

You Know, she talks about that her brother, when they were young, is the last and only time she ever felt love. And in that scenario, it is very easy to think of people as how they are useful or not useful to you. Because love is, you know, the only thing that sort of doesn't have, like a functional imperative and she doesn't feel it and she really struggles to give it. And I think, like, you know, we. I missed. I actually, I didn't find myself within the episode, missing Yaz. When the preview came up, I was like, oh, where's Yaz? And I know that Joe and I are hoping for this romantic rekindling or not unkindling of that friendship, but for me, it's because it's the closest we see Harper get to love. Yeah, I think much more so than Eric. Like, that relationship has always been of, you know, subordinate. And like, it's. It's. The writing has always been clear in that relationship. But with Harper and Yaz, we get so close. Like, we get so close to love. And I want. I want that for Harper, otherwise she is going to explode her whole world.

Rob Mahoney (73:33)

Yeah, I think she might do it one way or the other, to be honest with you.

Jody Walker (73:36)

But it won't save. You're right. Like, it won't save her. It won't save her.

Rob Mahoney (73:39)

I mean, everything with Harper and Eric is so fucked up. I did think it was interesting this episode, though, as you mentioned, Joe, this is just a kind of a disaster Eric episode in a lot of different respects, especially when you arc it out and where he ends up. He is one of the only people in the episode, though, who like, kind of gets the thing that he's been after, the thing that he's been chasing. It's like what he wanted in establishing Sterntau in the first place was basically for Harper to treat him like a friend or a father or like to disclose personal information about her life. And yet even when she does it, he can't help but make it about him and his daughter. And it's like how quickly he just flips from the one thing he professed to want into this other thing that I guess he needs. But I don't know. Our guy is a mess.

Joanna Robinson (74:22)

Black holes so deep inside of every single character in this show, they will never be filled.

Rob Mahoney (74:29)

Yeah.

Joanna Robinson (74:30)

All right, well, that has been episode 5 of Industry.

Jody Walker (74:33)

Have a great weekend.

Joanna Robinson (74:35)

That's the note I'm leaving it on. Of course we will be back, you know, after the next episode drops. So a little. In a little over a week, just because of the super bowl influence released of industry. Yeah.

Rob Mahoney (74:51)

Do you think we'll be programmed to want anything that we don't want because of the Super Bowl? I shudder to say.

Joanna Robinson (74:56)

Guess what? I won't be watching. So prestigious Spotify.com or harpscourse drop on@gmail.com and we will see you soon. Bye.