‘Industry’ Season 4, Episode 2: The Commander and the Grey Lady

Summary

The Prestige TV Podcast: ‘Industry’ Season 4, Episode 2 – “The Commander and the Gray Lady”

Date: January 21, 2026
Hosts: Joanna Robinson, Rob Mahoney, Jodi Walker

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Episode Overview

This episode of The Prestige TV Podcast dives deep into Season 4, Episode 2 of HBO's “Industry,” titled "The Commander and the Grey Lady." Hosts Joanna Robinson, Rob Mahoney, and Jodi Walker explore the episode's dark, Gothic turn, focusing on Henry’s 40th birthday blowout at Muck Manor—an event loaded with family legacy, depression, class anxiety, generational trauma, and a healthy dose of British aristocratic mess. They break down the episode’s tone, central performances, ghostly hallucinations, and thematic ambition, while also responding to listener questions and theories.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Listener Mail: Deciding on an “Industry” Email and Notable Fan Questions

• Choosing the Podcast Email:
  • The team banters about what to call their new show mail. They land on [e-mail], referencing the episode’s mix of highbrow and crass.
    • “Why wouldn’t you open your mind deliciously, why not?” — Joanna, [03:04]
• Fan Questions Addressed:
  • Excess in the breakfast scene ("mountain of sausage") as a symbol of English aristocracy’s overabundance.
  • Several listeners explain that “sesquipedalian” trended due to a NYT crossword.
  • UK fans clarify the presence of the Reform Party (Nigel Farage’s party), making the show’s political backdrop more explicit ([06:24]).

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2. Political Layers and Thematic Setup

• Election Loss & Reform Party:
  • Henry’s political defeat opens the episode; it shows both personal gloom and shifts in UK class power.
• Kit Harington’s Performance:
  • All hosts agree Kit Harington is at his best: “Frankly, this episode is just like some of the best acting overall that I think he's ever done.” — Rob, [08:09]
• Nobility & Relics:
  • The harpsichord becomes a metaphor for obsolete British nobility; listener Aaron links it to the family’s own decay ([10:09]).
  • “We choose to be ruined rather than change.” — Whispering Priest (referenced by Joanna & Jodi), [11:13]

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3. Gothic, Ghostly Vibes and Bottle Episode Structure

• Ghost Dad Debate:
  • The hosts acknowledge and debate the late reveal that Henry’s father is a hallucination (Ghost Dad).
    • Joanna knew immediately: “If no one else is talking to a character...it might be a ghost.” — [18:49]
    • Rob finds Ghost Dad trope unnecessary: “You don’t need a ghost to tell us this man is haunted.” — [20:46]
    • Jodi only clocked the ghost at the pub: “That’s Paul Bettany in A Beautiful Mind.” — [20:00]
  • Ghostly figures recur—a parallel to A Christmas Carol, but darker ([24:28]).

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4. Needle Drop Corner: Music, Cinematic Allusions, Mood

• Significant Music Cues & Cinematic Inspirations:
  • “You and Me” by Penny and the Quarters (evokes Blue Valentine, symbolizing marital disintegration) ([27:44]).
  • “Is That All There Is?” by Peggy Lee (nod to After Hours and "one crazy night" storytelling).
  • Shostakovich’s Jazz Suite No. 2, Waltz II (used in Eyes Wide Shut)—notes Kubrickian themes: opulence, surveillance, and unease.
    • “It is, like, very clear...Conrad and Mickey...are like, we're gonna get our Kubrick on, and we're not gonna make it even slightly subtle.” — Joanna, [31:05]
• Memorable Use of Score with Content:
  • Sad bathtub handjob scored to Blue Valentine music is declared “the saddest attempted handjob ever filmed.” — Rob, [27:44]
  • Yasmin’s attempts to exercise power, but always makes the “most terrible decisions.” — Jodi, [28:22]

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5. Character Analysis: Cordelia, Yasmin, and the Women’s Plight

• Cordelia’s Man-Killing Monologue:
  • “They worship us and tell us their secrets, and then they load us up with their insecurities and fuck all their fears into us, and then they kill us.” — Lady Cordelia (quoted by Jodi), [33:08]
• Cordelia’s Hypocrisy & Generational Cycles:
  • Cordelia says feminist things but defends abusive men—an all-too-real dynamic.
  • Yasmin’s journey is a generational echo: “She never knows how to harness her power...She is in no better spot than when we found her.” — Jodi, [37:28]
• Structural Hypocrisy:
  • Industry regularly explores how its characters “talk out of both sides of their mouth” (Rob, [37:37]).

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6. Deals, Power Games, and Class System Satire

• “No Deals” Complaints Refuted:
  • “What show are you watching? ...These are the halls of power where some of the most important deals happen.” — Rob & Joanna, [13:29–13:44]
• Symbolic vs. Actual Power:
  • The house tours, costumes, and period tropes all point to the British elite barely maintaining their own illusions.

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7. Class Mobility, Storytelling, and Identity

• American Myths vs. British Stasis:
  • Yasmin, for all her money, is still “on the back foot” to old money Brits ([47:33]).
  • Whitney uses American narratives of reinvention; UK characters struggle under generational burdens.
    • “Harper shows up writing her own story...Versus the way in which inside of the UK you know, these things, the. The entrenched class warfare just follows you.” — Joanna, [47:33]
  • The idea that “economics is a question of public humor and moods” (Jennifer Bevan, [53:24]) feeds into the show’s meta-narrative.

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8. Harper, Whitney, and American Salesmanship

• Funeral Tech Pitch & The “Ick”:
  • Whitney’s VC success comes from disrupting the “funeral industrial complex”—both Harper & Rob are unsettled by its amorality ([54:40], [57:03]).
  • Harper and Yasmin’s relationship: Still competitive, occasionally allied, always fraught.

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9. Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• "[e-mail]" running joke.
• “If you want to die, I’ll fucking kill you myself!” — Yasmin to Henry, highlight of her ambiguous power ([42:12]).
• “Men are obsessed with legacy, and women are obsessed with not being murdered.” — Jodi, [68:34]
• Bathtub scene & bloody post-garage sex: Gothic, transgressive romance.
  • “Romance is alive and well in 2026. And it is kind of like, eat your heart out, Withering Heights.” — Jodi, [64:52]
  • “Was it the blood smear on her mouth that was giving...Saltburn for you?” — Joanna, [65:05]
• “How dare you see me? ...Yasmin’s tagline is literally: How dare I be perceived?” — Joanna, [60:36]
• “He comes out of the garage and immediately says I should procreate. Yasmin...immediately was like, well, guess things are all better.” — Jodi, [71:47]

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Important Timestamps

| Segment | Details | Timestamp | |---------|---------|-----------| | Co-host Intros, Show Start | Quick-fire banter, episode context, setting the tone | 01:22 | | Mailbag, Listeners’ Theories | Deciding new email address, feedback on content | 02:55 | | Political Commentary | Reform Party, Henry’s election loss | 06:24 | | Henry’s Loss & Yasmin’s Response | Emotional beats, Kit Harington’s acting | 07:30–08:09 | | Ghost Dad Discussion | Realization, acting, unnecessary trope? | 18:26–22:14 | | Cordelia’s Monologue | Gender, generational trauma, lines quoted | 33:08 | | Needle Drop Corner | Blue Valentine, music as storytelling | 27:44–31:05 | | Class, Power, and Mobility | UK vs. US stories, what’s possible for characters | 47:33–54:08| | Harper & Whitney: Sales and Disgust | Venture capital, funeral business, reactions | 54:40–57:19 | | Bloody Sex and Gothic Romance | Climax of the episode, romantic tropes subverted | 64:10–65:24 | | Yasmin & Henry: The Baby Question | Delusional mania, relationship dead-ends | 69:44–71:47 |

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Noteworthy Segments & Details

• Meet Joe Black Erasure: Rob roasts the film and Claire Forlani’s previous roles ([38:53]).
• Meme-able Moments: Lady Cordelia’s mint-spitting, Yasmin’s Amadeus wig during an emotional confrontation ([73:11]).
• Class Struggle Visualized: Yasmin’s fish-out-of-water status despite her privilege (“new money,” [05:48]).
• Party Guests as Storytellers: Whitney, Jennifer Bevan, Harper are all outsiders, each leveraging narrative for power ([53:24]).
• Email & Community Engagement: [e-mail] chosen as the definitive mailbag address ([03:05], [72:45]).

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Tone and Speaker Style

• Always clever, dry, and enthusiastically analytical—staying true to the “Prestige TV Podcast” voice.
• Rob is matter-of-fact and incisive (“You don’t need a ghost to tell us this man is haunted.”).
• Jodi blends literary insight with meme-savvy (Cordelia’s monologue is “the men will always murder us monologue”).
• Joanna rides point with zingers, structure, and big-picture analysis (“This is as fidelio as a party can get.” [31:54]).

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Conclusion

The hosts make a compelling case that “The Commander and the Grey Lady” is both a standout episode of Industry and a bold piece of prestige TV—one that leans hard into Gothic, psychological horror, class satire, and disturbing intimacy, anchored by bravado performances and bold cinematic references. They highlight how Industry uses the claustrophobia and entitlement of the British elite to dig into the psychic rot at its core, while always keeping an eye on character, narrative, and visual style.

If listeners had any doubts about where Industry is headed this season, this episode of The Prestige TV Podcast makes clear: buckle up for ghosts, blood, betrayals, and the perpetual chase for status—all with a twisted sense of fun.

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Contact:
Email your thoughts to [e-mail] or [e-mail].
No hyphen in “strapon.”

Transcript

[A]

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[B]

I'm Rob Mahoney.

[C]

I'm Jody Walker.

[A]

Oh, we're here with Industry Season 4, Episode 2. I'm extremely excited to talk to you guys about this episode of television. The Gray lady and the Commander. An absolute banger as far as I'm concerned. So as long as someone remembered to change the locks on the armory cabinets. It's Henry's 40th birthday and we're just going to have a party for him. It's going to be fine. It's going to be low key. It's going to be great.

[B]

Don't forget, all going to be very cool. Yes, a lot of deadly items and spaces in the house. It turns out we did get a.

[A]

Lot of emails from folks between the the first and the second episode here. Prestige tvpotify.com always an option, but we have landed on our shared sort of pick for an industry specific email. Jody, would you care to share with the folks at home what we have landed on here?

[C]

I guess I want to ask first, Rob and Jo, as two people who frequently create unique, fun and fancy free emails. Mail. Com I feel like we had a hard time landing on this because we were dealing with simply a bounty of options. Is it always this difficult?

[A]

This is the phrasing. This is the hardest it's ever been. Honestly, this is the most difficult one.

[C]

Phrasing wise, spelling wise.

[B]

Oh, I mean industry just delivers so many lines that you want to latch onto and like how could we possibly refuse these other ones and yet we have to leave the mountain over to the side to open our little black box and I think find what is the right email for us.

[C]

Jodi and I believe that we have landed on harpsichordstraponmail.

[A]

Com, a totally normal email address where.

[C]

We would love to be reached.

[A]

Harpsichord [e-mail]. if you're like, hey, how do I spell harpsichord? Don't worry, it's in the show notes. It might flash across the screen. If you're watching this on video, why not? You can always reach US prestige TV, Spotify.com if you'd prefer to not type Harpsichord strap on atgmail.com into your email. But why wouldn't you open your mind deliciously, why not? On the mailbag front and in terms of emails that we did get, we got. We got an email asking if we were doing Night of the Seven Kingdoms coverage on this feed. And let me just assure you, there are so many places at the ringer where you find Night of the Seven Kingdoms. Probably too many places. House of R is doing it. Talk the Thrones is doing it. The Watch will be doing it. We are not. We are covering prestige and the pit, that industry and the pit. That is what we're doing right now. Our listener John wrote in with a screenshot from this episode. When Yasmin and Henry are at breakfast, there is just simply a mountain of sausage, which I did consider as an email address. Mountain of sausage.

[C]

But there is like simply Yasmin wishes. Am I right?

[B]

Going, I know a girl can only be so lucky.

[A]

More sausage than like an entire, like feast full of people could possibly eat piled at the table. Just to show us the excess of this, like English breakfast that they are enjoying here at Muck Manor. Any thoughts on the mountain of sausage or anything else in. In terms of this?

[B]

I mean, it's classic rich people shit. But I will say, just coming from. If we're trying to channel an abundance mindset, there is something very pleasing about a pile of breakfast foods. Normally, like a Gian stack of pancakes is more my preference, but if you want a pile of sausage, that's. That's your right.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

I also prefer the Pretty Woman Breakfast where we eat the pile of pancakes with our bare hands. But I also like, yeah, that representation of the extreme wealth. And there were so many gifts and curses of this episode. But I always enjoy seeing Yasmin almost outside of her depth. Like, it was hard to imagine when we met her that anyone could be richer and more prestigious and noble than her. But it is yet another reminder that we are in England and we are simply proletariat Americans ourselves. And watching her just try so hard amongst such monsters, and then to have her sort of scolded about that she's still learning about the curtain process in the house and that the maid knows more than her and that maybe she'll get the hang of this eventually.

[A]

Yeah. Yasmin is new money in this particular perspective, which is fascinating. Our listener Michiko wrote in. Several listeners wrote in to let us know that sesquipedalian, which Rob asked, why did this peak a couple years ago? That it was a New York Times crossword answer, and that's why a lot of people went to Google's to find out what that was about.

[C]

So I don't think that was. I don't think that was in the mini. I didn't come across that one this morning.

[A]

That's a classic.

[C]

Friday.

[A]

Friday or Saturday, I think. Yes.

[B]

Or maybe the entire strands puzzle, you know, just really wrap it around the whole board.

[A]

Wow. Strands guy. All right. And then a couple people wrote in to clarify something about the political landscape in the show. I mentioned that the actor Edward Holcroft appeared in the first episode playing a politician that we just saw basically in Parliament. And our listeners, our UK listeners, want to make sure that we understood that he was part of the Reform Party, which is Nigel Farage's party, which is far, far right, quote, unquote, anti woke that sort of stuff. So we've been, you know, we've been dealing with.

[B]

The.

[A]

The way in which the election did not go for Henry, especially at the beginning of this episode. We spend a lot of time slowly zooming in on his paid face as he registers that he lost his seat. But this. This presence of the Reform Party and, and maybe as a reaction to the way that labor swept the election inside of this world, is something to pay attention to. Rob, how did you feel about the. The election representation that kicks off this episode?

[B]

Honestly, I thought, like, this moment is kind of the secret weapon of the entire episode. Like, this whole sequence of getting starting and anchoring us from a place of, like, actual warmth between Henry and Yaz in response to the election, I thought tethers us to that place, makes us wonder the whole episode. Like, how do we get back there? How do these characters get back to this space? And I mean, in addition, it's just like the way that Kit Harington is playing that moment, which I agree with you, it's either slow realization or he's trying to play a result that he already understands. Either way, honestly, to read it, I think he plays it Brilliantly. And frankly, this episode is just like some of the best acting overall that I think he's ever done.

[A]

I really agree, Jodie, any thoughts on that?

[C]

It's a great point that it is sort of like the heartbeat of the episode, seeing Yasmine's earnest face out there, sort of like toddlers and tiara ing Henry, just almost like, coaching him through the right smile to do as he thinks he might win and then realizes that he loses. And when they're back in the room and he's crying, my memory of him was with that harpsichord from last episode with the pills crushed on the piano. So I was expecting things to be in this immediately dark place kind of already. But coming into this episode and to have that brief moment of her truly comforting her, truly saying, like, you don't have to fuck Margaret Thatcher anymore, and him saying that he liked it. It was nice to have that, like, one establishing beat before things went, like, fully Gothic romance, horror.

[B]

Yes, well.

[A]

And I like that it was a moment where Yasmin's like, you don't have to. It's not necessarily the power. Yes. His family is offering her protection, and that's why she aligned herself with them. Prot. In the media, all these other things. But, you know, it's not that she needs him to be in this position of power, power. She needs him to have purpose. She needs him to want to, like, fuck her. She needs him, you know, to regulate his mood somehow. But I like that when he lost here, she wasn't angry or upset. She was. She was genuinely supportive of him, which I really liked. So, yeah, our listener Aaron emailed a really interesting, fascinating email about the relic nature of the harpsichord and how it sort of speaks to. Not that we didn't understand that this harpsichord that's behind Cordon Off Ropes was sort of an ancient instrument, but the way in which it is so obsolete and the way in which that might represent the potential obsolete nature of, you know, the nobility in the uk, It's. It's sort of holding on. But what do the Whitneys or the other, you know, members of the industry class have to do with the crumbling nobility, the impotent nobility that we're seeing inside of this episode?

[B]

I mean, he clearly sees a purpose in it. Right. It's like almost the equivalent of bringing the student tour group around to see the house is like trotting around his new potential CEO to open some doors. Like it's a novelty act of access in a totally different way.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

And also, we learn more and more that this nobility, this family, is really just ultimately being supported by media, sort of. I mean, old media, sure. But, you know, the way in which the family is mostly being supported by the uncle, the way in which Henry's father was sort of driving it into the ground. Henry's driving it into the ground. And there's that. There's that great line from the whispering priest, I think. Yeah. He says, we choose to be ruined rather than change. And like, that's really sort of the through line of a lot of these kinds of families, of a lot of this kind of nobility is like, we choose to wither on the vine rather than sort of recognize the times. And I don't know, maybe. Maybe what we can achieve. Henry, I'm not sure that that, that one really presents an issue.

[B]

Shout out to the whispering priest, though. Shout out to Count Ben Face. A lot of great supporting characters in this show.

[A]

Yeah, Ben Face. You know, I was like, oh, they're doing like a Lord Buckethead thing. But I guess Lord Buckethead, who is like a real figure who. Who ran for election in the uk, I guess I think he had to rebrand. So I think Bin Face is actually the rebranded Lord Bucket Face. Anyway, you love to see him there. The fact, correct me, I'm wrong because I'm not nobility landed gentry in the uk, but I believe just the fact that the house is open to tours is just a real sign of. Of financial struggle and, like, come down. It's an indignity to sort of open up your house to these kinds of tours.

[C]

So, yeah, there used to be a little show on Bravo called Ladies of London. And one of the ladies was a lady, I believe she was like the lady of Sandwich. And like, her. Her was like the sandwich.

[B]

Phenomenal.

[C]

I might be getting some of my details confused because this was years ago, but I did love that as incontrovertible truth. Of course, these are facts. You can't check it. It's not available on Bravo.com and that was like a big storyline is that she married into, like this, you know, what seemed like this nobility, this amazing family, but it was like this huge task to keep the family afloat and to keep, like, these properties afloat. And they were opening up the properties to touring, which was kind of shameful, but also necessary. There's a lot for Lady Muck to junk to be juggling right now.

[A]

Absolutely. Last not least, and I thought it was an interesting bit of feedback that I saw around the old Internets about this episode. I love this episode. This is Actually, by some comfortable margin. My favorite episode of Industry, and just because it has. It has everything. It has ghosts. It has ghost dads, which I usually hate, but actually works really well in this episode and all this other stuff like that. I absolutely, really loved this episode. I saw some complaints from people saying, hey, man, there were no deals done, no business done. And I'm like, absolutely, there were.

[B]

What show are you watching?

[A]

Absolutely. This is the kind. These are the halls of power where some of the most important deals happen. They don't always happen on the trading floor. Sometimes they happen at Henry's. Absolutely. Shit show. 40th birthday, you know, so sometimes they're.

[B]

Sealed with a mint. You know, there's different kinds of negotiations.

[C]

I did. I did kind of have to chuckle at us trying so hard to figure out shorts last episode.

[A]

Yeah. And then.

[C]

And then to be given this as our second episode, which was a nice break, given that everyone on the Internet was ultimately figuring out what shorts are through Katy Perry and her vinyls being a flop in a very viral tweet series.

[B]

I was told the monoculture was dead, and yet we were all learning about this together in unison. It was really a beautiful moment.

[C]

Yeah. If you want to hear a full debrief of the Katy Perry vinyl tweet lore, you can tune in to. We're obsessed over on the Ringer Dish feed where we gave it the full breakdown. Yet another podcast where I had to talk about shorting. Shorting the market.

[A]

Short selling was by far and away the most popular email subject that we got from our listeners because they were very eager to educate us. I think we did okay based on what they said. I think I understand it. We will continue to try to understand the money markets as we cover this show, but as I mentioned, I already. I loved this episode. Jodi is someone who's covered the show sort of more in depth over the seasons and especially watched it transformed so much. What did you think this about this episode? How does it stack up to sort of a more expected episode of industry for you?

[C]

When you said it was like your favorite episode by a large margin, I got so nervous to even have to think about my favorite episode of industry and then to know. I think what I keep thinking about this episode is, like, this is a generational episode of television. I just really agree. I thought it was so impressive, and it gave me, you know, there's like, the popular saying, like, oh, I've never had a unique thought in my life that is simply not the case for Mickey and Conrad. Like, I'VE never seen an episode of television like this to even have conceptually thought to, like, take us through the suicidal ideation of a, you know, noble British man who just is, like, was kind of a side character and is now the husband of one of our main characters and to, like, just give us that detour, I think is such a fascinating creative choice that I so appreciate in this show. I think it can't be my favorite episode because it is not. It's not quintessential industry, except that it's quintessential solo episode of industry. I wouldn't go so far as to say it's a bottle episode, but it is very much in that way. Like Rishi's episode White Christmas, which was so intense, also so unlike anything I've ever seen, that I just, like. I really appreciated sort of the courage to, like, do this. Not just do this episode in the season, but do it as the second episode of the season when we've, like, barely established time and place. Like, we don't know where we are, we don't know who we are, what we are, but we know these people, and we really know Yasmin. And to have that as the entree point into, like, this whole other world and to learn more about her through her extremely sad boy husband is. That is quintessential industry.

[B]

Sad boy, quintessential industry, without a single doubt. I think they play it really well, too, because there's a version of this episode. Any, like, depression heavy episode can just sort of, like, languish, right? Like, you're. You're struggling sometimes when you're writing around that subject matter to find momentum. It never feels that way at all throughout this entire run. Like, it feels weirdly propulsive for a guy who is mucking about, stroking his gun, trying to decide if he wants to commit suicide. Like, they find a lot of action in what is ultimately a very, like, interior heavy episode. It's really brilliant. I'm totally with you, Jodi, in terms of the focus of this sort of episode is quintessential industry. I think it's something this show does better than almost any other one. When you think about the solo episodes of the Bear, for example, I found them really frustrating. The more they did them and the more they did them, it felt like a ploy. This didn't feel that way at all. This felt like quality time spent with characters we're invested in and became more invested in. I think it's brilliant. I think it's, like, mean and sharp and also kind of Soft in all the right places, to be honest with you. The one thing. And Joe, you mentioned this as something that worked for you. Ghost dad. Ghost dad really, really took me out, I gotta say. Like, it really bugged me, you know, I hate Ghost.

[A]

Like, Ghost Dad. Like, everyone has a hard on for Hamlet, and they're always trying to do Ghost dad, and it really bothers me. Especially when they're trying to try to fool you with Ghost Dad. That tends to really bother me. I know, but, like, since I. Since I clocked it right from, like, here's. Here's a pro tip for folks I saw. A lot of people were surprised by this. Here's a pro tip from those of us who lived through the shock and awe of seeing the Sixth Sense in the theater. Here's something I learned. If no one else is talking to a character and only one character is talking to them, it might be a ghost. And so just like, be on the lookout. Okay?

[C]

Joe, when did you. When did you know? When did you know Ghost?

[A]

Immediately he comes out of nowhere. He's not in the room, he's not dressed like anyone else.

[B]

Never seen him.

[A]

And then no one is, like, looking at Henry when. When they're, like, sort of jostling each other on the side of the table. So, like, I just, I. I got roasted and fooled so hard by the Sixth Sense that I was like, they'll never get me again. So I'm always just, like, on high alert for Ghost Dad. Jodi, where do you feel like you figured out Ghost?

[C]

If any of the listeners would like to be comforted by not being quite as sharp and astute as Joe and Rob. That's why I'm here. And I would say, but because I was like. When I got it, I was like, got it. I see what's happening here. Maybe, or maybe Israel. I. I realized. Oh, realized in full at the pub when he sort of insidiously whispers, polishes shoes.

[A]

Yeah, shiny.

[B]

Shine your shoes.

[A]

Shine your shoes, boy.

[C]

And he says that as sort of an instruction to Henry to attack the. The townsman. Shine his shoes. I said, oh, that's Paul Bettany in A Beautiful Mind. Like, that's. Actually, I didn't. And I wanna be clear, I didn't clock Dad. I said, that's Paul Bettany in A Beautiful Mind. And I just thought he was some sort of kind of, like, presence that this Henry has felt throughout his life, only to then realize, oh, that's his dad. Which I, you know, clocked just a little bit later.

[A]

Yeah, I Feel like the other thing, that calling him Commander.

[C]

Commander.

[A]

Giving him what I said, giving him a name. I was like, okay, okay. So, Rob, but you didn't like Ghost Dad. Tell me more about your feelings.

[B]

I think some of it's not even like, oh, it's so clear. You should have been onto it from the beginning. It's so obvious. I think for me, it was more like, this is totally needless. Like, you don't need a ghost to tell us this man is haunted. You're already gonna show us the flashback of child Henry watching his father go off to commit suicide. And so to me, it just felt so silly to make the episode in some ways about that moment. Right. It felt like it was building and building to this reveal. That wasn't silly to me because it was obvious, but silly because it was completely unnecessary.

[C]

So I was a little bit, like, maybe because I got on board for Ghost dad and had kind of the, like, a more traditional experience of figuring it out for myself. Like, didn't clock it right from the beginning. I felt like the flashbacks and, like, little boy Henry were a little bit the overkill.

[A]

I agree with that.

[C]

So I think they kind of like, you, you know, look at the mirror and take one accessory off before you leave the house. Like, you can do one or the other.

[A]

I feel like they drew out the reveal, like, once he's like, you know, he's like pulled down the turtleneck or whatever, and he's like. You're like, that's a ghost. And then we still got the flashback and all that sort of stuff like that. And I was. I was wondering if it was like, what Matt Damon and Ben Affleck were talking about in terms of making shows for Netflix, where you have to sort of repeat things five times in case people are looking at their phone. So, like, in case people are watching in their industry and looking at their. Don't do that. But in case they are, we're gonna make it really, really clear this is his dad. Do you get it yet? This is his dad.

[C]

Which is interesting and maybe is what struck all of us as a little bit, like, left of center for the show because there's so little hand holding show typically.

[A]

I agree.

[B]

And this is ultimately a small part of the episode. Like, I don't want to over index on it because I love everything so much. It just, like, I can't say it left a bad taste in my mouth after this week's episode, but, like, it kind of left a bad taste in my mouth. You know, I need something I need any closure.

[A]

I think that. I think Jack Farthing, who played the commander, was, like, very good. And I think there was enough, like, weird sexual tension between the two of them that just, like, added this, like, really fun and funky dimension.

[C]

I do think that's why my mind did not immediately go to Ghost. When they were jostling around in that. In the dining room, I was titillated.

[B]

What, you're just going, kiss, kiss?

[C]

And it really felt like they would like. It really, it seemed. And, you know, we'd been talking a lot about fraternity and, like, within between Henry and Whitney, and that is sort of a concept. And to have this very, what seemed like fraternal figure come in and soothe Henry with, like, these toxic male views and to assure him sort of that his legacy is important and he can pursue it however he wants. And all you really need to do is live the lie that gains you the most. I was like, that makes sense. That's a person.

[B]

Yep.

[C]

That's not just a ghost dad. That's a person who I could imagine entering late into the party.

[A]

I think another thing that I really liked about Ghost dad, and you're right, Rob, like, we don't need to, like, spend the whole episode talking about him because there's so much more else to talk about. But usually Ghost dad is there to, like, help a character through something or to moralize or to improve or to boost or something like that. And this is the demon on Henry's shoulder is his ghost dad. And that's a little unusual. And so I quite liked that. Yeah, the, like, hey, fuck. You know, fuck this woman who works in your house. Why not? It'll feel good. The class difference feels great, doesn't it? You know, beat the shit out of this guy. No one will care. And actually, they don't. You know, like, all this other stuff. It's like everything he's saying is true and repulsive at the same time. And it's, Henry's, like, worst angels sort of lingering around him this Christmas. So, yeah, I saw that.

[B]

The Vulture recap compared this episode to A Christmas Carol, which is a story that Jodie and I just can't seem to escape somehow. Keeps popping up in every work of fiction.

[C]

It's not as the scene, as seasonal as you'd think.

[B]

Apparently not. But, like, this is the dark mirror of it, right? Of being visited by a different kind of ghost that is tempting you into a different place. Whereas you have Yaz multiple times trying to talk sense into Henry, you have his uncle, like, even at Gunpoint, trying to get him to come out of his fog. You have Whitney making his kind of plea in a way. And I mean, also in addition to Ghost dad, what I can only assume is Ghost Priest, like, this priest is also not there, right?

[A]

No, I think that priest is actually there. Cause he's like, he.

[C]

When he's just got a wait.

[A]

Other characters are responding to him, but.

[B]

They never talk to him. They just kind of like look in his direction in the same way that the people at the dinner party look at the Commander.

[A]

They don't. I think. I think Whisper Priest is actually there.

[B]

You're telling me two 20 somethings are sitting there at the pub at a table with a random priest?

[A]

It's a. It's a country.

[B]

Do I not understand pub culture?

[C]

You don't understand pub community. I think that much is clear.

[A]

I would like to know if Whispering Priest is real. Something that I was delighted to discover via Katie Baker's recap is that some of his most profound things that he said, he's quoting, he's paraphrasing Cormac McCarthy, all the Pretty Horses and W.H. auden's Age of Anxiety. So, like, this guy is just like bringing. And he's like. He said words that have brought me comfort, but he's basically just like getting his Bartlett's quotations out and just sort of like dropping wisdom that he read somewhere, which is maybe what a whispering priest is born to do. But I am willing to entertain ghost whispering priests. I'm willing to entertain, but I don't think so.

[B]

But I guess let us [e-mail] if you think this priest is a real corporeal person.

[A]

Can I take you now to Needle Drop Corner, which is a place that I enjoyed last week and I would like to stay here again with you this week, please. I'm interested in the music that they're picking because once again, it seems like they've picked some music that is trying to teach us about what inspirations they're leaning on for this episode. So we get you and Me by Penny in the Quarters playing When Henry's in the bathtub, which is Blue Valentine straight to my heart. Like scenes from marriage. Want to watch a marriage dissolve you? Play you and Me by Penny in the Quarters, a song that is so closely associated with that movie. If you've never seen that movie. Michelle Williams and Ryan Gosling, devastating film about marriage. But like Ryan Gosley found that song out of obscurity and brought it forth for the soundtrack for Blue Valentine. And, like, made the widow of the guy who wrote it, like, a lot of money off of royalties because they dug this demo out of obscurity. But, like, I was immediately transported to one of the worst experiences I've ever had watching a marriage on screen. Any thoughts about the Blue Valentine influence on this episode?

[B]

I think overall, what you're talking about, Joe, in terms of the subtle, just kind of formatting us for these scenes, priming us for some of the emotional beats that we're gonna hit. And, I mean, just the saddest attempted handjob that's ever been committed to film. To make that an emotional moment, to make it weigh as heavy as it does, is quite a feat. And I think ultimately where this episode is so successful is in doing exactly that balance of being incredibly crude and crass in its way, but also devastating at the same time. And, like, tapping into Blue Valentine is one way to do that. And never actually mentioning the words or making direct reference. Like, that's a nice bit of artistry, honestly.

[C]

It's also like Yasmin in. You really think about in this episode, especially when she basically says, I'll be the one to kill you. Like, she's so powerful, and I've just spent four seasons. Like, it's just the shoes, Jodie. It's just the shoes that are Dominion. It's just the shoes. She's so powerful and makes such terrible decisions. Like, she never knows how to harness her power. And I am talking about the bathtub hand job. Like, the mere idea that. That, that, like a sad, underwater, like, aquatic hand job. It's a way to revive this sexual union. And this relationship is like. Yasmin, what are you thinking? This used to be one of your skill. Like, not hand jobs, but, like, revenue. Like, what are. What were you thinking? That is. That is the single saddest thing you can do.

[B]

And she's desperate. You know, what else is one to do?

[C]

And when she is back into a corner, that is when she does some of her worst work.

[B]

Yes.

[C]

But also some of her best, as we see over the course of these 12 hours.

[A]

Another. Speaking of 12 hours, this is. This takes place all, you know, on a. On a. A morning into another morning, across one night, One Crazy night. Is that All There Is by Peggy Lee plays At one point in the episode, this was used famously in Martin Scorsese's After Hours, which is, like, one of the, like, best one Crazy night films that was ever made. So I feel like that was just sort of taking us through this, like, drug fueled surreal experience that Henry's having in this episode. And last but not least, in Needle Drop Corner, we have, like, a follow up from last week's use of the Clockwork Orange theme because we get Jazz Suite Number two, Waltz Number two by Shostakovich, which is famously used in Eyes Wide Shut. So we've got, like, double Kubrick in this episode. Not to mention all of the, like, Berry, like, there's something in Hollywood called the Kubrick zoom, which is this, like, slow zoom into sort of a static frame. And we get it a lot in this. We got it a lot in the first episode. We get it a lot in this episode. So it is, like, very clear. And I. And I say this as a compliment. I don't think this is an insult that Conrad and Mickey, in writing and directing these first two episodes are like, we're gonna get our Kubrick on, and we're not gonna make it even slightly subtle. This is what we're doing. We're doing Barry Lyndon, we're doing Clockwork Orange, we're doing Eyes Wide Shut, another, you know, traumatizing film about marriage. And so I thought. I just think that's really interesting. I would be interested to see what the, you know, the song selection, how intentional that is, or if that's just, like, me overthinking, which I sometimes do.

[B]

But I don't think it's you overthinking, Jill. Like, if you just told me, as a formula, Blue Valentine plus After Hours plus Eyes Wide Shut. That is literally this episode. So again, it just, I think, structurally speaking, a really smart way to kind of tap into some of these feelings. And also, like, especially in terms of the Eyes Wide Shut element, specifically, once we get into the party proper, there's a version of those scenes that feels very stuffy, that feels very put on in a way that it obviously is. But I love, like, the. The handheld style that all of this stuff is shot in because it makes. It takes what is ultimately like a bunch of rich people trying to get bliss out of their minds at a costume party and turns it into that, like. Turns it into, like, the photo dump morning after kind of feeling of what is ultimately, like, quite. Quite much ado.

[A]

I feel like observing your Aunt Cordelia giving Otto a blowjob is as fidelio as it. As it can get.

[B]

Can we talk about Cordelia? Can we talk about Claire Forlani, please?

[A]

Lady Cordelia. Jodie Walker. What's your favorite Lady Cordelia moment inside of this episode?

[C]

I'm so scarred by the final moment that I don't actually know if I can think of a single thing like, the way that they draw out that sort of betrayal really works. Because when this woman came in talking about how men will always murder you, I was like, that's my girl. This gal gets it. Like, you telling Yaz that what she has is not partnership. It's like, yeah, understatement of the century, but important to say. I mean, she was just, like, rolling out some bangers that I was like, if I put this into some, you know, graphic design is my passion artwork and got it on Instagram to say, it doesn't matter how much a man tells you that he loves you, you never give them unconditional love, because they will weaponize it. They worship us and tell us their secrets, and then they load us up with their insecurities and fuck all their fears into us, and then they kill us. I didn't see the ending coming after that monologue. I thought, like, okay, here's a. Here's a source of strongly worded, you know, support mentorship for. For our Yasmin. And I was wrong.

[A]

Listen, she had a really bohemian childhood, so it's complicated. No, but I think that's such an interesting sort of generational thing for, like, I don't want to paint an entire generation with a certain brush, but I think that there are, like, some women of a certain generation who will say one thing and then defend the. You know, the bad men that they personally have known. You know what I mean? Like, the bad actors. I will just. I'll speak personally and say that I have seen women who I consider, like, quite feminist, quite progressive, then sort of rally around the men that they know who have been exposed for their, like, shitty behavior. And I was just like, this. This actually makes. This doesn't feel contradictory to me. This makes sense to me that she's, like, broadly, let me say these things about how men are horrible, and then also let me defend my brother who had sex with me when I was a child. And, Rob, I'm interested in what you want to say, but Jody's making a face that makes me want to go to her first.

[B]

Please do.

[C]

Oh, I. I simply have no idea what my face was doing in that moment. I was just thinking about that. What you were saying about, um.

[A]

And.

[C]

And there's. There's also the aspect of, you know, that monologue that I'm calling the men will always murder us monologue is. Is sort of encouraging Yasmin to want more from her relationship, but it's also.

[A]

Sort of.

[C]

It'S not exactly shaming her, but it's having higher expectations of her than this aunt has of herself. I think what we understand is that she is still married to Yasmin's uncle or to her husband, even though she's having this affair with this 29 year old. And even though she's, you know, blowing Otto in the parlor with the candlestick, like, even though she's. She's not living the life that she's saying that she expects of Yasmin. And I think a lot of times we want better for younger generations without providing them the world in which they can be better. Like, Yasmin's made a lot of choices that have landed her where she is. And we've seen her often, often turn down the. The more noble choice in the other sense of the word, nobility, and choose this life and try to, like, keep her head above water within it. But we also are always being shown the reasons that she makes those choices, because the people around her, the people who raised her, convinced her that they were her only protection, when really they were. The people put her constantly in peril. And it. And it seems to be becoming clearer and clearer the more specific ways that her father may have been harming her and how she. And how he can. I mean, talk. Talking about ghost dad. I mean, about how he continues to harm her and put her in. In harm's way from the grave. Like, this man will not die. And she continues to be betrayed by her own family. Where the hell is her mom? She has this. This aunt who is like, you know, it seems like she thought of as at least someone to sort of look up to, someone who feels safe. She invited her to this house for this 40th birthday party that she was scared of how it was gonna go. She invited the aunt only to realize the ways in which the aunt has not protected her throughout her life. Known the kind of harm that she. The kind of harm she could be exposed to through her father. And she chose the easiest thing, which was to do nothing.

[B]

Yeah, I mean, Cordelia definitely has, like, cool aunt energy in that way.

[C]

And which is why I loved her so much. That is like, my main goal in life.

[B]

It's a noble aspiration for all of us. And I agree with everything that both of you guys are saying, especially in terms of the moral authority that she's kind of projecting and giving this sage advice, ultimately being undercut by everything that she is and does. The hypocrisy is like, that's present through every character in industry. Pretty much like all of these people are talking out of both sides of their mouth, are making moral compromises, are trying to believe in one thing and selling themselves short and making deals they shouldn't make in order to continue chasing whatever it is they need to chase. And I think her speech honestly hits me even harder because of that. Because I think there is a part of her that believes all of these things and yet there is also clearly a part of her that is, whether it's pragmatic or otherwise, making these concessions to Otto, making these concessions to her husband. It's like it's the acid dipped version of the America Ferreira speech in Barbie. And it hits in a really, really visceral way that, I mean, it's just incredible writing. And frankly, I didn't know that Claire Forlani had this in her in terms of performance. I've never seen her do anything like this before.

[A]

Wow. This is Meet Joe Black Erasure. I'm just kidding.

[B]

Meet Joe Black. For the record, terrible movie. Very, very bad.

[A]

What a scorching hot take. Rob. How brave of you to come.

[B]

For me, Joe Black, it has its defenders and I don't know, I don't know where those people are coming from.

[C]

Oh, they're in harpsichord. Strap [e-mail]. i can't wait where they're going to be.

[B]

Courage. If you, if you have a full throated defense of meat Joe Black, I would genuinely love to, but Claire Ferlani comes in just like with a ton of energy, with a ton. Like, again, changes the course of this entire episode and throws like Yaz in particular a character that I can't help but root for no matter what decision she makes. Like, I'm invested in her story and her journey and I think Cordelia is what kind of spins her around the most in this episode. Weirdly enough, this episode is brought to.

[D]

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[C]

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[A]

[e-mail] between Cordelia saying this thing about, you know, men, historically, men will murder us. This is a historical truth. And then Yaz at the end of this episode telling Henry like, hey, you do this again, I will kill you. I will fucking kill you. So are we being primed for one muck or another to. To kill someone inside of this season? And then what do we make of the. Amongst the various shitty descriptions of Yasmin in this episode, one of them says she's floating around the house all sad and angry, which is very Gray Lady. Like, is she the titular Gray Lady? Of course we hear about the Gray lady in the tour. The Gray lady is like a common Castle Manor kind of ghost. But is Yasmin, in her own way, like the Grey lady of the. Of this episode, the ghost already?

[B]

Yeah, I really hope not. I hope this isn't what awaits.

[A]

Yes, I don't think she's gonna die. I don't. You know, like, what is the show without her? I don't. I don't think she's gonna die. But, like, could you see her killing Henry? Is he just going to kill himself? If I were Mickey and Conrad, I would not want to get rid of Kit Harrington on my show because he's freaking phenomenal. But I don't know any. Any thoughts on Those little breadcrumbs.

[C]

Well, I think that, like, what the show often asks us to think about and what this episode, like, quite literally says is like, well, at what point do we die? Do we die when we stop breathing? Or is this man already dead? Did he die when his father died? Like, how do we affect the generations below us? And no, I don't think that Yaz or Henry probably are going to die within this season. But as intense as it is when Yasmin says. And it's sort of like compelling and moving as it is when Yasmin says, you know, if you're gonna die, I'll kill you myself. It's Yasmine. And we know Yasmin. And we also know Cordelia now. And that's Yasmin in, you know, 30 years. And like, it's a lot of talk and it's no change. She is in no better spot than when we found her. She's in a worse spot. I keep thinking about that line from the Priest and I don't know if this comes from one of the source materials that you mentioned, Joe, but when he says we choose to be ruined rather than change, that is what I'm always thinking about. These characters in industry is. I'm obsessed with them. They are compelling. I can't stop watching. They never change. They do not learn lessons. And if they do, they leave the show. It's like we had a great storyline in Rob and Rob left the show. Love you, Gus. Miss you. I bet you're doing better. We stick with people who do not change. And I think like you said about Cordelia, she really can believe those things. I think she believed those things that she told to Yasmin. But we will always betray ourselves. And generally when we betray ourselves, we betray others as well. And how many times have we seen Yasmin do that exact same cycle to the curtain closing maid or the woman that she hired who Hand of last season. Yeah, the get rid of her stewardess from the yacht. Like the. Oh, now her name leaves me. But the young woman who worked at. At Pierpoint. Who, like Venetia. Yeah, yeah. Who? Who? Venetia? Yes.

[A]

Who?

[C]

Yaz.

[A]

Who's like, I don't think I should be getting salads and Yaz, like, that's just what I did. So you have to do it, you.

[C]

Know, so you do it. And if you don't, if you don't. A lot of times it's like, if you aren't harmed in the ways that I was harmed, if you stand up to the shit that I tried to stand up to, but you actually get somewhere with it. That's a betrayal to me. And I'm reeling the ladder right back up. Like, I'm reassembling the glass ceiling. And I don't know, to like, to.

[A]

To.

[C]

To paint that storyline, tell that story, paint that picture in this episode, I think is pretty wild. Like the. What they were able to do in the Henry Muck, not really a bottle, but sort of a bottle episode. Like everything else that we're learning and observing.

[A]

I think it's really interesting that you bring up Rob and Gus because another. Another sort of facet of this episode that I want, you guys are. You're latching on to this idea of, like, we'd rather, like, ruin ourselves and change. I think Whitney coming in and saying, you're just telling the wrong story was like a real thesis statement for me inside of this episode, inside of this show. Because, like, that is what Eric has been telling Harper from the very beginning, which is like what the market is. The market is telling a story. The market reflects the anxieties of the people with the money and all that sort of stuff like that. So how can you spin them a yarn that gets them to do what you need them to do inside of the market, but to expand that inside of this big sort of like America versus UK idea that we've been working with since Harper, you know, showed up the very beginning. Harper shows up writing her own story. She pretends she graduated when she didn't. Like, she. She's. She's come across the pond and writing her own story. Even though she gets exposed, she's still written her own stories to success versus the way in which inside of the UK you know, these things, the. The entrenched class warfare just follows you. Rob looks the part, but he has the wrong accent. Right. Gus has the right accent. Like, there, you know, there are just ways in which these people are just coded and hardwired in a way that Americans, at least in the UK are. Are free of. And that wasn't necessarily the argument that Whitney was making. He's like, I don't know if there are second acts in America, but there are in the uk. But he's just, like, spinning a yarn for Henry.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

And what's really true is that Whitney has showed up in, like, a barber jacket as if he's like Queen Elizabeth going to Balmoral. Like, he has costumed himself in, like, nobility on the countryside. And he is, you know, telling Harper about how he. In a very creepy way Used like sort of people's anxiety around the death of loved ones to make his fortune and all this sort of stuff like that. But that idea of like the American self made man versus what is mobility inside of the UK versus Yasmin being, you know, called lower class with a northern accent and other things that I don't even want to repeat into a microphone. Like that she is as. As rich and posh as she is to Jody's point at the beginning. She's on the back foot here. So I just think this idea of like, what story can you write for yourself? And then what are you even allowed to write inside of the UK class system for Henry Muck, who has this genetic inheritance of depression and noblesse oblige and all these other things that come with being cemented into a spot from birth inside of the UK versus how the Americans can be a bit more nimble inside of this narrative. Yes. Do either of you have any thoughts about that?

[B]

I mean, many. And I think the show does, which is part of what makes it like, buzz throughout this episode in the fashion that it does, like, managing the tension of, like, which of these problems are actually real and which of them are imaginary in the way you're talking about Joe, in the way that the market is imaginary and the way that it all is mood and humor and like, the impressions that people have versus that genetic inheritance. Right. Versus something you were literally inheriting from your parents versus whatever expectations you had impressed upon you that you can, in fact, over time, shed yourself of if you work hard enough to do it, if you separate yourself from your dad's suicide, like, you may not be able to fully cleanse yourself of the depression that I actually think this episode is like. Like some really smart things to say about the way you incorporate that sort of like mental pain into your life. Right. That it is not about trying to bury it. It's not about even trying to process it necessarily. It's about understanding what it is and putting it in a place where it is workable for you.

[A]

Coexisting with it.

[B]

Yeah, exactly. And getting yourself out of the forest and out of the fog in that particular way. And clearly there are parts of this that are just all storytelling. And I think, especially for wealthy people in any country, that can cover up a lot, it can explain a lot. But then when you get into that next stratified tier as you're talking about Joe, there's just a different story you have to tell and there's a bunch of other storytellers who know exactly what you've been doing and know exactly what it took to get here. And they see through your bullshit in a totally different way, because they are mired in it.

[C]

Well, and it's story telling, but it's also sales, which is like always story, same of industry. And I mean, it is notable, Joe, as you were talking about it, that I was kind of thinking, like, Eric Harper, now Whitney. The people that we are sort of told and see be these really electric salespeople, all American, all sort of bringing that different facet of we tell these stories about ourselves and then we sell them to someone who will believe them. Like when Whitney draws the parallel in Henry's, you know, outrageous family estate as they're looking at, like, the romance art. And he says, nietzsche killed God, factories started burning coal. It was game over for community, but just the beginning for men like us. And Henry has the wherewithal to be like men like us.

[B]

What else do you want?

[C]

You ever had a sword hit your shoulders, babe? But he says, you want something you don't have. I want everything you have already. That's all the fraternity we need. And finding the, you know, the strivers in our industry, Community, Eric Harper, Whitney. Finding the bits and pieces of fraternity that they can pull on. I remember Otto said that to Harper at the. At some point within last season about why he liked her. He basically said, we're the same. Like, we're now, I can't remember quite the word that he said, but.

[B]

But even that, in retrospect, Jodi was just another story, right? That's just him telling her what he thought she wanted to hear. So she can be the face of his fund, basically.

[A]

And this is something that the show has done from the beginning. Like, thinking about how Yasmin and Harper first meet is in the bathroom where Harper is listening to Yasmin and another woman that they work with talk about how Harper has the quote, unquote, best story because she is like a young American, non white nose ring. Like all the, you know, they're just like, how do we compete with this narrative around Harper? Like, how do we compete with that? And they see the things that she feels like she is working against as an advantage because there's just this great narrative behind her. And I just think that, like, Robbie, you alluded to this great quote that Jennifer Bevan, who is our politician at the table, who gets accosted by hen, says to his uncle, the viscount, she says, economics is a question of public humor and moods, and it's a question of tone, right? What story are you the media spinning and how is that impacting and creating a recession? By creating panic and all these other things.

[B]

Yeah. And I think Jennifer Bevan is part of this conversation, too, about these sort of like, interlopers. Right. Who are at this party. I really think it's Harper. It's Whitney and Jennifer Bevan. Three people who probably don't even know on some level why they're here, and yet they're all after something. And they come in presentationally very different. Whitney is, like, playing the part, putting on the costume, wanting to ingratiate himself to this world. I think Harper not dressing up or. I mean, look, she's in cloaks and, like, whole season anyway.

[C]

I'm not ambassador. She didn't wear an Amadeus wig. She's not period appropriate, perhaps.

[B]

Amazing.

[A]

Completely amazing.

[B]

And that's a flex in its own way. Right. Like, for her, I think it's an expression of power. And for Jennifer Bevan, it's like a half measure. Right. It's like, I'm here. I'm here to not quite kiss the ring.

[A]

I'm here.

[C]

I'm wearing a blouse.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

That's how you'll begin it.

[A]

That's all you'll get.

[B]

I'm here to flatter your impressions of the world and your perspective. But, you know, we're not going to go. I'm not going to bend the knee to ultimately, like the old media.

[C]

And these are also three people that you see doing a lot of eye acting, like they're the only. Like, we. We flashed that. That hand that Steadicam flashes every once in a while to one of those three people to be like, we're seeing it, too.

[B]

I would love to know both of your thoughts on when Harper and Whitney are discussing the aforementioned.

[A]

This is what I wanted to talk about. Yeah.

[B]

You know, really only in America to really profit off of the funeral industrial complex in the way that Whitney did via venture capital. What. What are we seeing in Harper's face?

[A]

I would say the ick. That's what I got from that. Is that not what you got, Jody? What did you get?

[C]

I was concerned. Um, I. Maybe it was the ick, but I. I almost felt like she was being won over. I think I've had this feeling since she met Whitney that she in some way saw him as an equal. And I think that's very unusual for her. We've seen her mostly be very kind of demeaning to. To the men that she deigns to sleep with. And this was a different, more intimate situation kind of immediately. And also that she would have seen him as an equal. And then he asked her to peg him, I think would have quite done something for continuing to see him in a unique and interesting way. And so I felt like she was kind of, maybe not charmed by the story, but I felt like she was playing coy in a way I've never really seen her do. And then she was mad at herself when he walked away. That's what convinced me was the little, like, was the.

[A]

Was the.

[C]

When he walked away, like, why, like, why am I feeling this? We've seen her feel so few feelings, certainly not any positive ones.

[A]

I thought her, like, rejection of him was like a clear, like, I've gone off of him. But you're saying she's playing of the game.

[C]

Oh, no. You know, when you're. When you're serious about someone, do you know, you gotta at least wait till the third date post peg so that they know you're serious. So it's established three dates after Peg Foundation. Three dates, then three stories building on.

[A]

Top of the PEG foundation, which is.

[C]

Strong, you know, in a number partnership, it's a strong foundation.

[B]

This is the real girl math, as far as I'm concerned. I hadn't heard this formula before.

[A]

Rob, I have a question for you, and I don't want to get too personal, but my memory is that like. Like you're you. The Mahoney family business is connected to, like, the funeral process. What did you make of this? Of Whitney's sort of mercenary approach to this?

[B]

I mean, look, I can't support the bare bonesing, if you'll allow it, of the entire business of the model of taking all of the personality and care out of ultimately, like, saying goodbye to someone's loved ones.

[A]

That's.

[C]

You're not doing the Uber for funerals? No, they're not investing in that.

[B]

Not quite my MO but clearly there is a market for it, right? There is a certain percentage of the population for whom it's just like, can we get this over with? Whitney identified it. He is gross for doing it. And I think that's why, ultimately, as far as Harper's reaction, I kind of do come down more on the ick side of things, I do think. I mean, look, as the commander puts it, there is a nexus of arousal and disgust that is probably tapping into both of these feelings for her in some way or another. But even for a character who I would say Harper is mostly, like, pretty amoral. Like, she is exceedingly practical and, like, goal oriented, Whatever it takes. Something about Whitney in this moment seemed to like, be a little beyond some kind of pale. And I just don't even know what it is.

[A]

Especially when she's. She has or is on the verge of getting more information from Jonathan Byers of Stranger Things about like tender and what's going on there. I'm wondering if, if, if Yasmin has established Henry at tender and this is very important to her in terms of like his productivity or something, you know, is. It is desperately important to Yasmin that Henry succeed at tender. So she is a stake pro tender. And if Harper is on the lookout to short tender, does that put Harper and Yaz at cross purposes this season?

[B]

Joe, when are they not at cross purposes?

[A]

Sometimes they are and sometimes they aren't. And I'm wondering, I'm actually furthermore wondering if they're going to be at cross purposes and then united in taking down Whitney, you know what I mean? To save Henry and also to make Harper a profit. This is always me just wanting people to work together. I did this all through succession.

[C]

It's foolish of me, but it's not always very endearing. But if we, if we are talking about Harper and yes, we have to talk about just the brief of them, you know, doing a few lines to get through the day, and the absolute nerve, but also sort of endearing of Yaz with cocaine on her nose, Amadeus wig on her head to. After Harper says just kind of gestures around and it's like, I just feel like all of this stuff is not going to get you the respect that you deserve. And the nerve of her in that outfit, in that state to say, why would you say something like that? You know, that'll hurt my feelings.

[A]

She's like, you know, it's totally normal that I like to dress up as Princess Diana Marie Antoinette when I do costumes, right? Those are totally.

[C]

Why would you say I'm not gonna get the respect I deserve?

[A]

Totally fine.

[B]

Maybe, maybe it's the husband who was just pantless in this very room buffing those exact lines a couple moments ago. But yeah, something tells me it's not all gonna work out okay for Yaz.

[C]

How dare you suggest that I deserve more than I have, which I also know is less than I des. And in the proposal of my marriage of convenience, I said, henry, I deserve everything you did. And then things. And then I had the best sex of my life on the wedding night. And then things immediately went off the rails. How dare you? Closest thing to a best friend I've ever Had say I deserve more than.

[A]

How dare you know me this well?

[C]

How dare I be perceived? That is like, literally. Actually, Yasmin's tagline is like, how dare I be perceived?

[A]

How dare you see me? I want to. I just have a couple more things I want to talk about before we go. We've already sort of danced around this idea that Kit Harington is fantastic in this episode. And as a long term Game of Thrones enthusiast, I have a couple questions for y', all, if you'll indulge me.

[B]

Absolutely.

[A]

First of all, our listener Cole wrote in to say I find it absolutely hilarious that while Henry is on the at least heroin and pills for what seems to be months now, Kit Harrington in the bathtub is still more ripped than 99.9% of the world will ever be. And honestly, I don't care. That's television, baby. So if you'll indulge me on the Thrones front, what made you think most of Jon Snow? Was it.

[B]

Well, let me stop you there, Joe. It was Spring is coming. How could it not?

[A]

Was it winter is coming versus spring is coming. That's one option. Was it it Kit Harrington showing you the hard work that he's done on his glutes, which he liked to do as Jon Snow as well, or was it him hitting a person in the face, like, shoveling someone's face Didn't. As Jon Snow did famously in the Battle of the Bastards? Like, which. Was it violence, was it sex? Or was it the tagline of spring is coming versus winter is coming? Jody Walker?

[C]

I'll tell you right now, it was that. But he did rivalries impact. It was when he stood up out of that tub, globes glistening. I was like, that's Jon Snow.

[A]

And then he put like demure hands sort of like tucked behind the bum, like, don't look too long. Yes.

[B]

The hands behind the back is just a beautiful moment and like, just physical acting. Great job from kid.

[C]

That really was like, the only time actually that I thought of it. I think, like, this performance is so different, even though it's like Sad boy all over again, you know, but it's totally different. I think of Jon Snow very little during it, except, like there was something about that which wasn't very performance based, which was just so, like, took me right back.

[A]

I had a similar moment in season three when he and Yasmin were in the, like, hotel swimming pool and it was steaming and it was very like, yes, Johnny Gret in the cave. And then he like, got. Got out and once again showed us that. But to respect Kit Harrington, I want to say I think his performance here is incredible. I think. I don't know how much of this is something that the creators have leaned into, but Kit Harington has been very transparent about his battles with depression and battles with substances as they pertain to his fame and the pressures of that. And so the way in which this had the opportunity to be an incredibly personal performance for him, and I just think he really delivered. Henry is the kind of person I root for against my will, but I am oddly rooting for him. I did not want him to end himself in that garage. And I'm not foolish enough to think he's going to succeed, but I don't know why, but I wish him well. And that's down to Kit's performance, I think.

[B]

I mean, that's the whole show, right? Like, none of these are people I want to be friends with.

[A]

But even more so Henry, would you say more for sure than everyone else's.

[B]

But like, they're all on paths of self destruction in different ways. It's just like, whose fuse is shortest? And it looked like he. His fuse might be quite short, right? It might be. Within this episode, following in his father's footsteps, he finds a kind of rebirth in the same way that Yaz does, in the same way that they do within their marriage. But the result of that is him pitching, oh, maybe we should have a kid and maybe start the cycle all over again. Doesn't that sound great for everyone involved?

[C]

But God help me when Yasmin's voice saying his name is the thing that brought him out of the garage filling with gas and sent him into the circular driveway screaming her name. And then he fucked her against a car while his uncle watched. And she watched the uncle watch. I thought, this is romance, like alive. Romance is alive. And that was another one of my 2026 trend predictions. Romance is alive and well in 2026. And it is kind of like, eat your heart out, withering heights. Like this. This is goth modern gothic romance.

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

And for me, that felt like really a couple of things felt really cemented by this strange.

[A]

Was it the blood smear on her mouth that that was giving first? Speaking of Saltburn. Saltburn for you? Or like, how did you feel about it?

[C]

First it was when he tucked her hair behind off of her face with his blood covered hand. And I thought, this is gothic romance. I did not expect that to then escalate to her kissing his other hand where the blood is fresher. Smearing her lips with blood and not wiping it off.

[A]

And I'm just down there.

[C]

That's part. That's actually partnership. Cornelia doesn't know about that, but that's partnership. And I just thought, like, I never would have expected in the first episode of this show to be watching a gothic romance in Industry Season 4. And I think that's so cool. And it also has sort of also opened up the other part of the show to me in that way as well. Like, there are a lot of parts of industry that are a ghost story. There are a lot of parts of industry that are a gothic romance and that are sort of, like, extremely traditional in some of their tellings and extremely modern in other ways. And so I'm almost like, I walk out of this episode, like, really excited to watch the rest of the season.

[A]

On the ghost story front, I will just say the way in which, like, Bill Adler is haunting Eric this season is interesting to me. And then the way in which it all started with Harry's death in the very first episode, and the way in which that was just sort of hovering over all of his classmates, if you want to call them that, as the story progressed. Rob, what did you want to say about that?

[B]

I just think in terms of, for one, turning these not just from ghost stories, but like, twinning the daddy issues between this couple and these two characters and kind of driving them in parallel. And I thought, like, specifically the hammer lines we have not mentioned yet. The Cordelia line about how your father told me he was gonna terminate the pregnancy until he found out you were a girl, kind of paired off with Henry himself saying, like, do you know what would've been a more loving gesture for my father? A vasectomy. Right. It's like they are. They're weirdly in similar places. They're weirdly kind of cursed in their ways that they're trying to get out from under. I don't know how successful they're gonna be, but I love this sort of interrogation of those ideas. I love the idea of those as being, like, a driving force that's bringing these two fucked up people together within their fucked up relationship. And you're right, Jodie, the idea that we're getting into it so early in the season I think is part of the magic of it. This is not an eight episode season where episode seven, guess what, we're gonna swerve and we're gonna tell this standalone story that you're never gonna expect. As we've seen in every other show to date, it is Table setting. Right. It's understanding these people as we reshuffle the deck, as we. As we change everything about what the season is going to be about, as every season of Industry does. This is where these two critical characters are.

[A]

It puts really important emotional stakes on Henry's success or failure at tender. Right. Because, like, if they just brought Henry on board after seeing what happened when he was in charge of a company last season, we would just be like, here we go again. Why do we. Why should we care? He's just going to fail again, as he says inside of this episode. But now I can't. I don't want Tender to succeed. It's gonna make me sort of root against myself. I don't want Tender to succeed because I don't trust Whitney at all. I don't know what's going on. There's deep, shady secrets going on here. I want Harper to succeed, and if Harper's success requires Tender to fail, that's interesting to me. But I also want Yaz to be happy and Henry to succeed, so. I mean, no one's gonna get what they want this season or ever.

[B]

They're not.

[C]

Rob. You paralleling those lines is. Well, as you well know, men are obsessed with legacy, and women are obsessed with not being murdered. And I think, like, the. The absolute controlled insanity of having an hour before, said the kindest thing my father could have done was get a vasectomy. And then to have ever so briefly come out of his sort of manic depressive haze and said, I think we should have a baby.

[B]

Well, he's not out of the haze. That's the manic part.

[A]

I want to get to that in a second. Before we wrap up with that, I just want to beat on the Yaz and Haley scene because Kiran Shipka is in this episode in a Northwestern sweatshirt.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

What do we make of that exchange?

[B]

They're reminding us that this character exists.

[A]

Okay. Jodie, anything?

[B]

Yeah. I didn't draw a lot from this, to be honest with you.

[A]

I'm curious if the infidelity clause counts if you sleep with a woman who you could not get pregnant, you know, or could not get pregnant by, because that's usually why an infidelity clause is in. Well, I don't know about nepotism, those in general, but in terms of, like, nobility. Yeah, usually to preserve the line.

[B]

So like, plugged in our usual. On nobility law. Like, you know, marriage law specifically, you know, not my.

[C]

That was your minor in college.

[A]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, exactly.

[C]

So a little.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

I mean, my. My Main takeaway was that they were just establishing some sort of confusing sexual tension. Maybe like, Yasmin. Her into the bed. And the sort of. But it. It also felt a little bit akin to the relationship that Yasmin had with her former boss. Sort of mentor. That international woman of mystery is like, okay, is Yasmin actually. Oh, Celeste. Is Yasmin actually, you know, wanting to maybe, like, have this girl in her bed, or is she just challenging her? Like, is she just. Yeah, challenging and sort of pushing and confusing, like yet another young woman?

[B]

It did seem like a challenge. It also seemed like girls got needs. And, you know, Henry hasn't quite come around yet. He's off in a garage somewhere.

[A]

Come around. Great phrasing. Okay, so listen, Katie Baker, the great Katie Baker, did interview Marissa Bella about the final moment when Henry's like, should we have a baby? And this is when Marissa Bella, who plays yeah. Said that she used the word delusional mania and said, quote, she's never going to be safe with this man again. So if that's not the ick, I don't know what is. This was a hard no from Yaz with the blood smear still in her face. So cue the pet shop. It's a bad time.

[B]

There's huge. Are you fucking kidding me? Vibes in that moment, right? Like, after everything these two characters have been through, for that to be his revelation. Embarrassing, frankly, for Henry. But, you know, who's to say what we come out of our long, crazy nights with?

[A]

We just have to, like, you know, men are just gonna fuck their fears into women and continue the tradition. Anything you want to say, Jodie?

[C]

I mean, you know, the thing about me is that I could never let Yasmin off the hook, E either, though. And it's like, yeah, Henry came out of the garage and immediately said I should procreate. Yasmin, you know, got laid on the car and immediately was like, well, guess things are all better. I think I made the right choice. I think when I created this marriage of convenience, I actually made the right choice. And so I'm gonna strap on my head scarf, I'm gonna kiss my husband's bloody knuckles, and everything's gonna be fine. And, like, two seconds later, she is just always realizing I made a huge mistake. It is an incredible gift of that character.

[A]

All right, Jody Walker, can you remind folks where they can reach us with their thoughts on Ghost Dads, Harpsichords, strap ons? Anything else they may want to talk to us about here?

[C]

We would just love for you to email [e-mail] if you need the spelling, you can tune into YouTube or Spotify to see that on video right now. Or you can Google it. Or maybe it'll be in the New York Times crossword this week.

[B]

One can dream. I do want to know, just for people who are listeners only, strap on. No hyphen in strap on. Just harpsichord strap on straight up as customers.

[A]

And if you did not watch this episode on video, what you missed towards the very beginning was Jody silently miming the way in which Lady Cordelia spit the mint out of her mouth in Yaz's direction. It was an incredible piece of podcasting. And Jodi, we're so grateful to be doing this.

[C]

I'm sorry. I'm making space again. I'm thinking. I'm thinking about what she said again. Everybody was talking about taste. Way too much.

[B]

Oh, yeah.

[A]

Thank you to Rob Mahoney.

[C]

Thank you.

[A]

To Otto for always packing mints.

[B]

Yeah. For the tastemakers, really.

[C]

That's who I hope dies if we're. If we're laying down. Who's gonna die? I. Otto, hope it's Otto.

[A]

Yeah. Dare to dream.

[B]

Well, he's already got Dickens.

[C]

Unless I Charles Tonani again, and then in which case, I will choose that.

[A]

Thank you to Ashley Smith and Devin Ronaldo for the work of this episode. Thank you to Justin Sayles for his work on this feed in general. And we will be next week. The episode's a little late this week just because Monday was a holiday, but usually we were aiming to have these out on Mondays. And then we'll also have an episode, of course, about the next episode of the Pit out later this week. And that is what is happening on the Prestige feed. And we'll see you soon. Bye.