‘Industry’ Season 4, Episode 3: Watching the Sausage Get Made

Summary

The Prestige TV Podcast

‘Industry’ Season 4, Episode 3: Watching the Sausage Get Made

Hosts: Joanna Robinson, Rob Mahoney
Date: January 27, 2026

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Overview

Joanna Robinson and Rob Mahoney break down the third episode of Industry Season 4, “Habsilikkayten” (“possessions closest to your soul”), examining its intertwining themes of power, legacy, identity, and the ever-shifting moral compromises of late capitalism and elite privilege. Rich in cultural allusions, finance and political intrigue, and sharp character analysis, this episode of The Prestige TV Podcast navigates everything from Nazi-adjacent banking scandals to shameless sausage symbolism, deft journalism, and the personal demons that drive the show’s antiheroes.

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Key Discussion Points and Insights

1. Episode Title & Thematic Thread: “Habsilikkayten”

• Definition & Symbolism: Refers to “possessions closest to your soul.” Both hosts unpack how the idea of possessions manifests literally (art, sausages, money) and figuratively (power, control, legacy) for every central character, particularly in the context of capitalist aspiration and insecurity.
• Quote (Joanna, 02:03): “It is important we’re talking about possessions in a show that is, of course, so fixated on money and capitalism… it’s never human connection. It’s always things and security and legacy, as Jody would like to say.”

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2. Listener Mailbag & Easter Eggs (03:39-09:30)

• Closed Captioning & Foley Work: Praise for inventive “fluid, squelching” captions and sound design during a sex scene.
  • Quote (Rob, 04:10): “Whatever Foley artist came up with that exact squelching sound... real sludge in the sewer kind of sound.”
• Sausage Symbolism: Piled sausages serve as a new status marker for the rich in the show—a recurring motif for excess.
• Mad Men, Sopranos, & Cultural References: Listeners highlight echoes of The Sopranos and British expressions (“Lord and Lady Muck”) underlying class commentary. Notably, multiple Mad Men needle drops are discussed.
• Meta Moments: Celebrity listener emails, including a possibly real note from co-creator Mickey Down defending Meet Joe Black.

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3. Power, Media, & British Politics (09:54–13:21)

• The Jenny Bevin Power Move: Discussion of whether Party official Jenny Bevin intentionally placed an article to boost her standing, reflecting how women are forced to navigate media and political games differently.
• Media Manipulation & Soft Power: Connections are drawn between tabloid placement and maintaining/increasing influence, furthering the show’s theme of transactional relationships.

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4. Yaz: Girlboss or Lady Macbeth? (13:22–24:44)

• Manipulation & Survival Instincts: Yaz’s past (manipulative father, multiple nannies) informs her uncanny ability to work people—including Henry and Haley—for practical, self-interested ends.
• Quote (Rob, 14:00): “This whole episode is a showcase of the ways in which Yaz is a player in this space and has been for a long time... her capacity is whatever the fuck she wants it to be.”
• Succession & Ghislaine Maxwell Parallels: The hosts talk about power imbalances, Yaz’s sexual manipulation echoing infamous assisted abuse/redirection narratives (Ghislaine Maxwell, Lady Macbeth).
• American Psycho Allusions: Her role and aesthetic invoke dark memes of white privilege, power, and transactional sex.
• Ghost Dads & Daddy Issues: The episode is thick with psychological projections—Henry’s dead father and actual ghosts loom large.

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5. Fascism, Class, and White Privilege (24:45–32:36)

• Yaz’s Heritage & the Lure of Power: Her comfort around Nazis (Austrian banking partners) is dissected through the historical lens of the Mitford sisters—fallen British gentry who cozied up to fascism out of insecurity.
• Quote (Joanna, 25:53): “Fascism as a place to ally yourself when you feel like you deserve to be on the top of the world and you are somehow on the back foot... how do we take our whiteness and our good breeding and ensure that we are back on the top of the pile?”
• Short Sell Plotline: The banking scandal underlines the show’s ongoing interest in who gets to manipulate narrative, be “in the room,” and profit from shadowy deals.

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6. Needle Drop & Mad Men References (30:36–35:21)

• Music as Subtext: Sukiyaki and three separate Mad Men needle drops across recent episodes draw direct lines between Industry’s themes and Mad Men’s exploration of power, advertising, and emotional emptiness.
  • Quote (Joanna, 32:44): “Did I leap up? And I know that’s used in Mad Men. So I was like, another Mad Men [reference]... But, like, also, I just rewound it and... played it like nine times driving into the office.”
• Don & Peggy vs. Eric & Harper: The complicated, fraught, and often psychosexual dynamics between Eric and Harper echo Don Draper and Peggy Olson, but with "a dark shadow"—Industry’s mentorship goes to even darker, more transactional places.

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7. Harper vs. Yaz: Different Models for Power (39:49-45:58)

• Strategic Personalization: Harper keeps things clinical, business-first (except where it benefits her), while Yaz exploits familial ties and personal relationships to get things done.
• Quote (Rob, 41:39): “Harper isn’t above the personal play when that is what suits her. But for Yaz, it’s like the default.”
• Team Composition and Representation: Harper’s squad is more diverse and draws outcasts and overlooked talents, contrasting sharply with the white (or white-passing) elite Yaz/Whitney power circle.

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8. Journalism’s Role (“The Fourth Estate” — 45:58–53:08)

• Legacy Media vs. Digital Crusading: Yaz leverages traditional, insider media for strategic gain, while Harper partners with scrappy, semi-anonymous digital journalists (Jim) to destabilize Tender from the outside.
• Risks and Motivations: Exploration of source motivation, whistleblowing, and the difficulty of cutting through noise, as well as the self-serving dangers of “mining trauma for content.”
• Quote (Joanna, 48:55): “There’s one thing to, like, go through these experiences, and then there’s another level of, ‘Oh, I’m gonna mine this for content.’”
• Power Triangle Expands: This season’s focus on journalism and politics supplements the show’s financial high jinks, exposing multiple paths to (and abuses of) influence.

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9. Finance, Institutions, and Returnees (53:08–56:51)

• Real vs. Fictional Institutions: Frequent use of real banks (Goldman Sachs, Deutsche Bank) offers shorthand for audience context.
• Returning Characters: Celebratory notes about Kenny’s poetic return and hopes for more legacy cast to pop back in.
• Risk and Downfall: Eric’s $10 million risk is dissected as both a search for meaning and a likely disaster.

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10. Memorable Moments & Quotes

• Kenny (53:08): “The buy side is full of tyrants who deny their tyranny. The sell side is full of slaves who deny their servitude. Somewhere in the middle all of human life.”
• Rob (13:56): “It’s an incredibly vulnerable place to put yourself with somebody who… is incredibly opportunistic and… who understands how to leverage exactly these sorts of confidences.”
• Joanna (24:21): “He’s still wearing his dad’s ghost watch.”
• Rob (36:10): “It’s the dark shadow of that [Mad Men Don-Peggy] relationship”—on Eric and Harper.

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Notable Timestamps

• 00:52: Homage to Jodie Walker via Eric’s “a constant, nerve-jangling desire to enshrine [power]” line.
• 03:57: Listener mailbag: on squelch, sausages, and “Lord and Lady Muck.”
• 10:09-11:58: Realities of British politics, media leaks, and Jenny Bevin’s career maneuvering.
• 13:22-19:57: Yaz’s rise to girlboss/femme-fatale/psychic manipulator (Succession, American Psycho, Maxwell parallels).
• 24:45-30:36: Discussion of fascism, class movement, white passing, and the dangerous appeal of status.
• 30:45-35:21: Music, Mad Men references, and the Don/Peggy vs. Eric/Harper dynamic.
• 39:49-45:58: Harper vs. Yaz: differing philosophies of power, race, loyalty.
• 45:58-53:08: Contrasts between legacy media (Yaz) and muckraking digital journalism (Harper).
• 53:08-56:51: Kenny’s poetic reflection on the finance world; real vs. fictional institutions.
• 57:45: Room service “robe goblin” banter.

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Tone and Style

• Witty, allusive, irreverent, and literary.
• Metatextual nods to other prestige TV and pop culture touchstones.
• Deep dives into sociopolitical metaphors and British/American contrasts.
• Confessional rapport: plenty of in-jokes, listener engagement, and candid confusion over British details.

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Final Takeaways

• Industry continues to probe the corroding effect of wealth, power, and ambition, drawing sharply on real-world scandals, historical echoes, and classic TV DNA (Mad Men, Succession, etc.)
• The episode’s central question isn’t about money per se, but about what desperate people—at every rung of privilege—will sacrifice or rationalize to claw their way to (or back to) the top.
• Journalism and politics are as transactional as finance; everyone’s an opportunist, and the “story” is always open to the highest bidder or most persuasive manipulator.
• The ensemble is growing deeper, more layered, and more steeped in ghosts—historic, personal, and political.

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Notable Quotes

• Joanna (02:03): “It is important we’re talking about possessions in a show that is, of course, so fixated on money and capitalism… it’s never human connection. It’s always things and security and legacy, as Jody would like to say.”
• Rob (14:00): “This whole episode is a showcase of the ways in which Yaz is a player in this space and has been for a long time... her capacity is whatever the fuck she wants it to be.”
• Rob (36:10): “It’s the dark shadow of that [Mad Men Don-Peggy] relationship”—on Eric and Harper.
• Kenny (53:08): “The buy side is full of tyrants who deny their tyranny. The sell side is full of slaves who deny their servitude. Somewhere in the middle all of human life.”

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For More

• Email feedback or Mad Men references: harpsichordstraponmail.com
• Look forward to Jodie Walker’s return and more “squelch” analysis in the next episode.

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Recap by The Prestige TV Podcast, ‘Industry’ S4E3, January 27, 2026.

Transcript

[A]

Foreign. Hello. Welcome back to the Prestige TV podcast feed. I'm Joanna Robinson.

[B]

I'm Rob Mahoney.

[A]

Jodie Walker is not with us, alas, tragic.

[B]

Especially given the subject matter this week. I feel like Jodie would have had a field day with this episode.

[A]

And we will get her take on this episode. She is on vacation. She will be back next week.

[B]

Yeah, I heard she's in Vienna.

[A]

Is that what you heard?

[B]

You know, just seeing the sights.

[A]

Let's not slander her. Okay, quick, homage to Jodie. Can. Can we start with an homage to Jody and say, I don't know if you know this, but all that men care about is legacy, right?

[B]

Indeed.

[A]

Kenny. When Kenny asks Eric, our guy Kenny comes back. My guy Kenny asks Eric at the end of the episode how it feels to be in a position of power. And Eric says, a constant nerve jangling desire to enshrine it. Yeah. Is that not a line written for.

[B]

Jodie Walker speaking right to her soul, to her philosophy? It's going right into her instructional materials.

[A]

All right. With Jody not here, though, I do have a quick question for you. Okay. We're seeing the launch of Stern Tao. Would this Prestige podcast team be called Robinson Mahoney or Mahoney Robinson? Who gets to go first?

[B]

It's obviously Robinson Mahoney. One of Us is a New York Times bestseller. We're leading with Prestige on prestige.

[A]

Season 4, episode 3 of Industry Habsilikkayten is how we've decided we pronounce that.

[B]

Obsilikkeitn habsilic, chitan, abselek, chitin. All right, that's all we're going to do of that.

[A]

Written by Joseph Charlton and directed by Michelle Seville and Princess Joanna. Johanna.

[B]

Sure.

[A]

No relation to me. Asks. Yeah. As if she knows this word. Right. Literally translated, she says it means possessions closest to your soul.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

How does this. You know, we love to look at a title of an episode and see how it goes across all threads of an episode. Do you see anything beyond the. We really love this Adolf Hitler painting, so we've put it in this prized room definition of this particular title.

[B]

I think there's many, and I think it depends on how broadly you want to define what you possess and what you own. I mean, for example, I think the now very complicated sexual politics between Yaz and Henry and Haley ends in some ways with Yaz exerting that she owns a certain thing that Henry has deposited and owns him in a lot of senses. I think there's an area by which Eric, in appealing to Harper is trying to give her the things, the precious things that he can't give his daughters because he doesn't actually know who they are. And in that case, it's like the power and the authority to run this fund on her own terms. And so it's like, it is an appeal to find these precious things for each other in ways that are good or very selfish. But it's kind of all over this episode. I feel like.

[A]

I really think it's important that we're talking about possessions in a show that is, of course, so fixated on money and capitalism. We'll talk about all that, obviously. But when Yaz or Harper, you know, we're always wondering what they're chasing, and I'm always hoping for them that it's relationships, and it never is that. It's never human connection. It's always things and security and. And. And legacy, as Jody would like to say. So, Mailbag. We're going to run through a few of these really quickly. First of all, our listener. And wait, where can people email us?

[B]

Rob mahoney [e-mail] especially for this show, @harpsaccordstraponmail.com and no, that will not put you on a list somewhere.

[A]

I really hope people are enjoying typing that into their emails as they send us these various insights.

[B]

One of life's great delights, I can assure you.

[A]

Our listener Travis wrote in to say, I usually find the closed captioning very helpful, but during the Haley muck scene, I felt the, quote, fluid, squelching description was unnecessary.

[B]

Yeah, I could not disagree more.

[A]

Okay, tell me.

[B]

We like to spotlight great artists and craftspeople on this show. Yeah, I think whatever Foley artist came up with that exact squelching sound, which we should say occurs after Yaz has requested the dismount. And there's just like this very subtle, very low in the mix. I mean, real sludge in the sewer kind of sound to this thing.

[A]

Tremendous.

[B]

I. I wouldn't know even. Wouldn't even begin to know how to replicate it.

[A]

Do you think it has anything to do with the fluid squelching sound we heard on the pit that related to Brain Matter in last week's episode?

[B]

I certainly hope not.

[A]

Wow. You made the exact same scrunch face. That's incredible.

[B]

Okay, I am who I am, but this is. This is what I'm getting at. There are different kinds of squelches, and the real artists among us understand what separates one from the other. You and I can only. Can only dream of being so Talented.

[A]

I love an inventive closed caption. Mallory and I talk about this all the time on House of R. Especially as it pertains to Stranger Things. They love the word squelch on Stranger Things closed captioning. So love to see it here. Our listener Alex wrote in to say another episode. Another piled high plate of sausages. What a show. Talked about the sausages at the. At the MUK household here at the Mortz Loss. I like. I have to imagine it's Vice Vers. It's not like British.

[B]

Sure.

[A]

You know, bangers.

[B]

Not your stuffy British sausages.

[A]

No, they prefer their sausages.

[B]

The genuine article, right?

[A]

Yeah. Ab.

[B]

But really, look, it's the demonstration of excess. It has become the new symbol.

[A]

Right.

[B]

If you are rich, you get your pile of sausages on this show.

[A]

Something to aspire, possession to dearly cherish. Okay, John on Especially as it pertains to this episode when we're talking about like anti Semitism. John wrote one small note about episode two is that the guy at the pub says North London, not Northern Think the setting for the movie Disobedience with Rachel Vice and Rachel McAdams. So it wasn't about her accent, but he assumed she was Jewish instead of half Lebanese. And like, you know, he uses a slur in regards to Yaz in episode two. But this will come back around in this episode. But I thought that was an interesting, important, distinctive distinction. One listener who goes by just Eep did not decline to put their name, seem to have created their own email because they did not want to go on a list, having sent something to harpsichord straponmail.com so they made their own special email to communicate with us. Let us know that it won't be cinematic. That quote that yes, says to Henry about suicide is according to this listener, word for word for line from the Sopranos. When a mobster threatens Tony's.

[B]

What is. Sorry, what show was that?

[A]

Have you heard of it? The Sopranos?

[B]

Maybe. I don't. Maybe in the Wind somewhere. I couldn't place it.

[A]

It won't be cinematic as Sopranos reference that we missed. Who knew that we might miss a friend's reference? Our listeners. Sam wrote in to let us know that Lord and Lady Muck is an older British expression for people who put on airs and act above their station. This might suggest that since Lord Muck is nothing if not an authentic member of English nobility, that in the view of the show, no one is actually an authentic noble. They're all just lords and ladies Muck.

[B]

So well no one is an authentic noble. Like it's just shit we made up.

[A]

It's true. We didn't make it up.

[B]

Well, yeah, but we collectively as a species made it up.

[A]

True. Last but not least, on the on the mailbag corner, do you want to talk about this email we got from a listener who goes by the name Mickey?

[B]

What? What do we have?

[A]

Okay. Someone claiming to be Mickey down perhaps.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Wrote in to say will not hear any meat Joe Black negativity. Here's what happened. We got an email from an email address that looks like it could be one of the co creators of this show. In fact, did I reply? No, because I don't want to know if this is fake because I choose to believe that one of the co creators of the show typed harpsichordstrap [e-mail] into his email to column and sent us an email defending meet Joe Black. How do you feel about that?

[B]

Well, first of all, if you are involved in the making of this show, that's not the first time you've typed harpsichord strap on at Gmail. At least harpsichord strap on into a dock somewhere. So that part makes sense. I simply don't even have it in me to have the full throated me Joe Black debate at this point. I don't even fully understand the debate. So I would again, I would love to hear the merits from somebody as to why this is a good movie. And we did get a couple emailers.

[A]

Attempt to do that and you don't want to.

[B]

I am not moved.

[A]

Okay. I should say if you are Mickey down and you emailed us about me Joe Black, we, we appreciate the spirit of, of your endeavor. I don't want to know if this is a fake email. Actually I asked C.R. i was like, what do you think? And he was like Mickey. Because they're like pals with Mickey and Conrad. And C.R. was like, he's more of a DM guy. I was like, don't destroy my illusion. I choose to believe that this is a real email. But regardless, where's the line for that?

[B]

Like if we start getting Kit Harrington burner emails, do you want to know or do you want to. I want to know.

[A]

I just, I let's live in delusion. Why not? Also just this is, this isn't an email that we got. But I just want to say elsewhere in Prestige TV land, Patty Raden Keefe got a message in this episode and Patty Radden Keefe is the author of say Nothing, which is a book that a great show that we covered was based on. So I loved that reference.

[B]

Fabulous show.

[A]

And Chloe Perry plays Lisa Dern, the business secretary, and we spent a lot of time with her in Department Q, another show we covered. So I just was really feeling the prestige TV podcast vibes in this episode.

[B]

The milieu, for sure. I mean. And she's great on Department Q. If you're not up on that show, it's definitely worth your time.

[A]

She's fantastic on the show. And she showed up last season to sort of grill our guy Robert, you know, when he was in front of a grand jury or whatever the British equivalent of that is. And she's back here again, getting a little undercut by Ricky Martin with a Y and Jenny Bevin. So I think it was a great.

[B]

Episode, too, for the people who believe they are in control, who are not in control. And she is, you know, unfortunately for her, one of those figures.

[A]

I would be interested. Thanks so much to all the listeners who write in with, you know, little aspects of British culture that might go over our American heads.

[B]

Definitely.

[A]

And I think especially I was looking for more information on the Ricky Martin character, first of all, like, incredible character name, obviously, but also just, is there a comp for this in British politics that I'm missing? This guy who walks in and these two women are like, oh, God, this guy. This guy's here. Well, here.

[B]

Well, here's the thing. Was it him specifically, or was it more like, oh, who called in the representative for the PM into this meeting?

[A]

Yeah, but like, both. Like, why is the PM elbowing into this meeting? And also this guy, really? And then he slaps down this, like, very ostentatious headline about Jenny Bevin as the future of the Labor Party, which certainly put Lisa on the back foot inside of this meeting.

[B]

She didn't love it.

[A]

No. Do you think so? Last week's episode, we saw Jenny, you know, go toe to toe with Henry's uncle about the use of the press and how can they come to terms. Do you feel like she placed this article in? Because we see a lot of placing of articles in the media. Do we think she placed that article or was that done without her. Her knowing? Or was it because they thought it would be a good idea to support her? Like, what do you think?

[B]

I didn't interpret her. It is her placing it specifically, but her benefiting from the relationships that she's fostering in that way. Like, she. She is playing as is every. Like, everything in this episode is a transaction, as it basically is an industry all the time. And she has been playing that particular game with. With the media in ways that her boss is at least playing differently, if playing at all. And this felt like the fruits of that kind of transactional labor for her.

[A]

Yeah. Her reaction said to me she didn't know that article had been written. She felt this is not a move she would have made to sort of assert herself over her own boss. Lisa.

[B]

But it feels like a little obvious as a play for her.

[A]

Right.

[B]

But as somebody who, you know, as she is currying favor and gathering these relationships and working with media figures in particular, the more powerful she is, the more they stand to benefit. And so it's like it's one of those things where everyone can sort of end up propping each other up a little bit.

[A]

I'm going to come back to the journalism angle because we have a lot to say about the legal department and redacting articles and stuff like that. Did it? Did it. How much have you in the sports media had to grapple with the legal department in your journalism?

[B]

Honestly, not that much. Legal department.

[A]

It was trauma for me.

[B]

For me, it was more. When Jennifer Bevin does come to visit the tender offices and Yaz is sort of hovering as a communications consultant, that was very familiar to me of, like, I think I, like, I'm trying to have this conversation with somebody who's pretty. That's like, pretty direct or pretty blunt or pretty close. And here's this person just kind of tagging along, waiting, waiting to provide helpful context.

[A]

Yeah. To be clear, I love the legal department because they. I. I haven't had to deal with them at the Ringer, but when I worked at Vanity Fair, the legal department are very, very important. Right. They keep you honest. As a journalist, you, you know, you can only say what you can prove.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

That's good journalism. Right. And they are there to make sure that Kanye Nas doesn't get sued and all these other things. But the frustrating back and forth, the waiting for them to come back is just a lot of. It was, to use a. A term that Eric likes, triggering for me inside of this episode.

[B]

You seem triggered, Joe.

[A]

I am. I am triggered. All right, let's talk about Girl Boss. Yes. And also Ghislaine Maxwell and also Lady Macbeth and also Elizabeth Holmes.

[B]

Sorry, what was that second one?

[A]

Ghislaine Maxwell.

[B]

We're.

[A]

How do you reconcile how Yaz is treating Henry in this episode with what Marissa said about the end of episode two? So to recap, in case people didn't listen to the podcast, Marissa Abella, who plays Yaz, said that that Scene at the end of episode two, when Henry's like, baby. And she's like, ugh. That she said she would never be safe around him again, that she doesn't trust him.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

So how does that translate to the way in which she's handling him in this episode?

[B]

I mean, this whole episode is a showcase of the ways in which Yaz is a player in this space and has been for a long time. Like, this is a woman who, for worse, was raised by a manipulative, abusive father, or at least he was in the picture, and really raised by a series of nannies that she had to quickly ingratiate herself to and win over in order to get the things she wanted. And like, that bears out in her behavior and her ability to work people right, to work the angles, to find out where it is she can exert her influence. And Henry is maybe the most crucial of all of those pieces. Right. Like, I. I think there is a real genuine affection between them, clearly. Like, these are two people who are attracted to each other, who married each other because it's practical, but also because there's some heat and feeling there. And on the edges of it, she can massage everything else to get exactly what she wants to get into any room that she feels like being in. And to the increasing annoyance of. It seems like most people at Tinder who are like, who is this woman?

[A]

What is your role exactly?

[B]

What exactly is your capacity here? Which her capacity is whatever the fuck she wants it to be.

[A]

So far. Yeah. She shows up in a high ponytail and a black turtleneck, which is like Elizabeth Holmes drag. Like girl boss, tech drags me. And then this is what Bloomberg's Harry Wilson wrote about, sort of her interjecting and the board being like, excuse me, what are you doing here? Quote, quote. Longtime investors in Britain's Metro bank holdings might nod along in knowing solace at their fictional counterparts, having seen the company's co founder and former chairman employ his wife at considerable expense to oversee the design of the startup's branches. So I'm not opposed to Yaz being in this room. There's a lot that she has to say that I think is useful. Why didn't they just hire Yaz in this position to be so.

[B]

Yeah, well, they need the name, but.

[A]

She has the same name.

[B]

She does, but it's like, I think the Mary. I mean, look, I'm not going to speak to the ins and outs of the bullet like British political and. And like social systems, but I would imagine coming from the name means something different. Than marrying into the name.

[A]

You sound like you're entrenched in the British class system, and that's great.

[B]

People do often say that about me.

[A]

But. No, I mean, I agree with you. I just think, like, I don't want her not in the room. And I'm not like, what is this wife doing here? But it's also like, give her an official job, you know, let her officially be there. I also, I got really nervous when Haley. Not the second part of Haley's story in this episode, but when Haley first comes up to her and tells her about what Jim did. Yeah, I got really nervous. This is actually my only succession reference in this podcast, I promise you. But Shiv Roy betraying women who had come to her in a vulnerable space. And we've seen Yaz herself do it. But I got just, like, women, real Shiv Roy vibe of like, don't give Yaz this information. Yeah, like, this is not a good idea. How did you feel?

[B]

I mean, obviously at the same. It's just an incredibly vulnerable place to put yourself with somebody who, as we're alluding to, like, is incredibly opportunistic and, And. And who understands how to leverage exactly these sorts of confidences against people, or really not even against people, but for whatever it is that she wants ultimately. And I think this exchange in this scene and specifically the way it ends, which is Yaz trying to give Haley the night off in Vienna.

[A]

She's like, you're not my boss, actually.

[B]

Yeah, I can't. I can't do that. I need. I need the sign off from Henry or Whitney to me. Sets up everything that happens between them from here on out. That is a like, oh, you don't think I have the power to give you the night off? Let me show you what I have the power to do.

[A]

Yeah, I agree. I agree. So, like, when we get to the Yaz directing her husband and Haley in their assignation, did you get.

[B]

That is a word for it.

[A]

Did you get strong American Psycho, Sabrina, don't just stare at it. Eat it vibes from Yasmine, because I did.

[B]

You know what? I didn't connect those dots, but you're absolutely right. And. And we should say not the first American Psycho reference that we've seen in the show, if that is indeed the case. Some. Some listeners also connected the dots that the early club scene with Haley invokes the exact same New Order song that plays in American Psycho when Patrick Bateman is in the club. Unfortunately not. The part in the club where he tells a woman that he's into murders and executions mostly.

[A]

But the other one, another American Psycho reference. And American Psycho, what a great source for industry to pull from Marcus Halberstrom, which is, you know, the character in American Psycho who Patrick Bateman, much to his consternation, gets confused for.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Halberstrom is Whitney's last name, so they gave him the same last name. And I was like, oh, I wonder if that was on purpose. And then I googled it. And Max Minghella's Instagram. He has forever grateful to Mickey and Conrad for the gift of Whitney Halberstrom, a true American Psycho. And then in the carousel, he has, like, a screen grab from American Psycho. So this is like.

[B]

It's on his mood board.

[A]

Yeah. This is clearly something that they're doing here. I like this idea of. I mean, this whole sequence was great. Deeply diabolical that Sally Draper. We're going to talk about Mad Men a good deal more in this episode, but on the heels of Lady Cordelia talking about men, their fears into women.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

This idea that Yaz is, like, going to make her husband his fears into someone else, and then, well, that's what.

[B]

Life is all about. Outsourcing the emotional labor.

[A]

There you go. And then consuming the aftermath so that there's no chance of children. Henry's like, let's have a kid. And she's like, not only am I not going to have your kid, but I'm gonna make it so that nobody kills your kid.

[B]

First of all, I'm not quite sure that's how science works.

[A]

I. I wouldn't call it a foolproof birth control.

[B]

Now, if you told me Yaz believes that. Maybe she does. Maybe. Maybe that is exactly what she was after. And we have to say, while we're honoring crafts people on this show.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

The smash cut from that into the oyster slurp. Master stroke. Diabolical. Just incredible shit.

[A]

All right. As I mentioned earlier, I was going to talk about Ghislaine Maxwell. Uh. And you're like, great. Love to talk about Ghislaine Maxwell on a podcast.

[B]

Yeah. Uh, speaking of legal.

[A]

Let's just.

[B]

Let's just get.

[A]

Well, the way in which. So I saw this comp come up a lot. The way in which she manipulates Haley or. Or forces Haley into this scenario. And thinking about Ghislaine Maxwell, who was Epstein's right hand woman.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Okay. You're going to shrug your shoulders, but I have something.

[B]

I'm not shrugging my shoulders. I'm like, as you say the word, force, like, I understand this is a manipulative situation. There's no question Yaz is being manipulative.

[A]

There's a massive power imbalance in this scenario.

[B]

Unquestionably true.

[A]

So something that Kiernan Shipka has said about Haley in that scenario is that Haley is like calculating what power can she glean from this?

[B]

Yes.

[A]

So, yeah, you know, she's not like a completely unwilling participant.

[B]

She's playing a game, but it's clearly not the same game at the same level.

[A]

I just would like to. And I'm sorry to do this to you, but I would. I asked you off pod and I told you not to Google it. Do you know how Ghislaine Maxwell's father died?

[B]

I do in fact, not know.

[A]

So this is from the Guardian, a paper of repute. The title of the article is the Murky Life and Death of Robert Maxwell and How it Shaped his daughter Ghislaine. Quote, it is almost 30 years since her father, the press baron Robert Maxwell, fell to his death from his 15 million pound yacht, Lady Ghislaine, off the Canary Islands, age 68. Even now there is talk of suicide or murder, perhaps by Mossad in the Israeli intelligence service. So this is.

[B]

Well, holy shit.

[A]

Precisely how Yaz's father died. Last season, the boat was called the Lady Yasmine Yasmin. So, like, they were intentionally invoking Ghislaine Maxwell with Yasmin last season and now they've put her in this particular scenario in this season. So how do you feel about that?

[B]

I mean, look, this is tremendous detective work from you, Joe. You know, you're really doing.

[A]

I don't think I'm the first person to have pointed this out, but I.

[B]

Think it's a sharp connection. Clearly at a point of influence where they want to take that as. I think the interesting thing for the show, because industry has been the kind of series so far was, as we've talked about with the American Psycho references and all these other things, there's stuff that's like in the ether and then there's what are we pulling from for plot.

[A]

Right.

[B]

And that's all kind of mashed up and thrown in the blender and we see how it comes out. But that is a hell of a through line.

[A]

Anytime that I'm like drilling for real life influence or cultural illusion, it's not a neg on the show. I think it's interesting to draw from, you know, the real life or the art that you're interested in and put inside. And there are shows and films that feel like they're just imitating something. And then there are shows and films that are saying, hey, we're people who have seen a ton of films or watched a ton of television, and we want to sort of draw on those inspirations. That's. That's art. That's how art.

[B]

And the deft hand on industry specifically, to me, comes from. Like, that's the thing that I clearly did not know. I would assume a lot of the viewers of the show did not know. And yet, because it is obviously true, like, there is a. There is a part of that kind of story and that kind of detail that's just evocative of the sort of person Yasmin's dad would be and what he echoes. And, like, whether you know those dots to connect or not, there is a connectivity there that you can feel, if that makes sense.

[A]

I also wanna. I mean, as you know, I'm always on Shakespeare watch, the way in which Yasmin has moved into this sort of Lady Macbeth role inside of her relationship here. I thought it was really interesting that she's voicing and encouraging things, that the commander was sort of Henry's father, quote, unquote, was saying, so, like the devil on his shoulder. Right. You can fuck that girl. She's your underling. It won't matter. It'll feel great. Do it. You're great, you're wonderful, you're powerful. You can accomplish anything.

[B]

And Henry even calls her out for this for, like, the enabler sort of behavior.

[A]

Yeah, exactly. One of our listeners wrote in and thought that. I thought that the commander was a real ghost. And I just want to clarify that that's not the case. It is definitely like a psychological projection, just in case that was not clear to everyone.

[B]

Not an actual. I mean, he's dead, but it's not an actual ghost.

[A]

Ghost dad, but no, not an actual ghost.

[B]

Ghost dad is a big. A big ten.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

There are within that the actual ghost dads.

[A]

Sure.

[B]

There's the spear, like, Vision quest dads, there's the acid trip dads, which this also seemed like could be of that variety as well. In addition to some kind of psychological break, there are many kinds of ghost dad Daddy.

[A]

Daddy issues run abound. They really do in this episode on Ghost Watch. And I'm not talking about the. Like, he's still wearing the Rolex, so he's still wearing his dead dad's watch.

[B]

He's still wearing his dad's ghost watch.

[A]

Yeah, Ghost Watch is on him. But Ghostwatch in general, how do you feel about this quote I'd be dead without you. So just so you know that.

[B]

Whatever girl wants to hear, right?

[A]

Henry muck, death watch 2026. It's in effect. Okay. I'm going to take us from Ghislaine Maxwell to fascism. Does that sound like a fun place to go?

[B]

I would love to hear you connect it.

[A]

How do you.

[B]

How do you want to manage that.

[A]

Joke we've already talked about? Gillian Maxwell, another comp that I was thinking about. Do you know about the Mitford sisters?

[B]

No. Who are the Mitford sisters?

[A]

The Mitford sisters, Joe, what corner of.

[B]

The Internet slash library are you in?

[A]

No, no, the Mitford sisters I've known about long time. I just am learning things about Ghisne Maxwell. Okay, but the Mitford sisters are. Are. It was like seven women born to a landed gentry family that fell on hard times in the 1930s. And the, the daughters went in different directions. Some of them became novelists and, and, and great writers. And one of them married Oswald Mosley, was the leader of the British Union of Fascists. And one of them is rumored to have a love child with Hitler. So like they went in a couple different directions. Okay, but the idea of the Mitford sisters and this idea of like, the way in which British, like how susceptible Britain was to fascism. There was like a real fascist movement.

[B]

Sure.

[A]

In the UK that coincided with the rise of Nazism, frankly.

[B]

Was and is. And as in many places.

[A]

No, no, as in many places. But this idea of fascism as a place to ally yourself when you feel like you deserve to be on the top of the world and you are somehow on the back foot in one way or another. So the Mitford sisters, who were born, you know, with a name and huge estate and fell on hard times, and how do we take our whiteness and our good breeding and ensure that we are back on the top of the pile? So way in which Yasmin, who was born rich, but her father blew their entire fortune, so she had no money and disgrace and scandal around her and has married a name and is now seemingly comfortable. Not happy about it necessarily, but comfortable cozying up to literal Nazis if it helps her feel like she's back on top of. Of the pile, for what it's worth.

[B]

I mean. Yeah, not entirely comfortable, clearly.

[A]

No.

[B]

Right. But understands the compromise that she's making. Like is going into it pretty clear eyed in, in the vein that she did with her marriage to Henry in the first place. Right. Of like, is this the decision I would make under any circumstances? Clearly not. But under these, she's acting in a way that is like, quote, unquote, pragmatic for the situation to help expedite this merger or this acquisition. But, like, ultimately is obviously morally bankrupt, she knows is wrong even before she has to do, like, the Paul Rudd style, like, double take on the Adolf Hitler signature on the painting. She knows this is fucked up, but she goes into it anyway because she wants what she wants. And ultimately she wants to back up and support Henry and build his power base so that it builds her power.

[A]

Base, proximity to power. That's what she wants, if not power itself. And I think, you know, something that Harper called out in a previous season, I think it was season three, was she was talking about Yaz's white passing privilege, right? And so we'll talk a bit about the team that Harper and Eric are building over there, but when you think about Whitney Halberstrom, who, you know, gets hit with a very insidious anti Semitic comment of it's always money Halberstrom, you know, like from Moritz here. But he has white passing privilege. Yaz has white passing privilege. Their whole, you know, board is now just a bunch of white dudes. And in a way that someone like Jonah, who's been booted from the company, Cal Penn, definitely doesn't have. So, like, they can move in this world with these fucking Nazis in a way that Harper's team cannot. And I think that's interesting.

[B]

I think the Whitney Jonah contrast is so sharp in this episode too, because in Jonah's absence, it almost feels like Whitney's becoming more and more like Jonah. Right? Like, without that personality in the room, he's being a little more swaggering. Tell me, just with the way he's talking like this line, my sense is this guy is an alpine fuckboy with an outsized sense of his own relevance and recourse. Like, you could plug that line into Jonah's mouth in the first episode and it would feel right at home. And yet he can get away with it because in a lot of ways, because of the way he passes and the rooms he can occupy, and because there is a little bit more fluidity to his kind of general social and racial situation than there might be to Jonas.

[A]

On the Austria finance front, I'm going to quote the Bloomberg recap, Harry Wilson. I did not know anything about Austria banking, but this is what he says. Austria may be known for many things, but clean as a whistlebanking sector is on among them. If you think this is unfair, look up Meinbank. I'm not sure how to pronounce that and rejoice in the majesty of perhaps one of the most corrupt organizations to ever breathe corporate air. So an Austrian banking license isn't exactly the financial equivalent of papal indulgence. So that is what they're after. They are cozying up to European power, but, like, dicey, reputationally European power and.

[B]

The power they can cozy up to. Right. It's kind of like, who. What is the power base that is already compromised enough that they would want to do business with us? A bunch of, like, porn payment middlemen, effectively.

[A]

Yeah. Yeah.

[B]

And I. I thought you're spot on, Joe, in terms of, like, the kinds of people for whom fascism would appeal, I think, are those sorts of, like, down on their luck, noble families or classes. There's also a degree of, like, just wealthy enough to be exempt from the actual problems of real life, but just low enough on the totem pole to feel slighted.

[A]

Right.

[B]

And it's like there really is a sweet spot for whom this sort of consolidated power really appeals. And, you know, clearly their substacks are just, like the subscriptions are flying off.

[A]

And feeling like you'll be inoculated from the consequences, of course, of a fascist.

[B]

You get to reap all the benefits of the supposed efficiency without any of the damage to literally everybody else.

[A]

Right. This is where I want to do Needle Drop Corner. And it does not have to do with the literal Nazi anthem that we hear play inside of this episode.

[B]

Thank you.

[A]

Which I guess has been, like, banned, which is great. You're not allowed to play that song that they play in this episode. You're not allowed to play it in Germany. Great.

[B]

Seems like a good idea.

[A]

We should ban more music. Not all music, but some.

[B]

Please tell me that this Needle Drop Corner is about orinoko flow.

[A]

Do you want to talk about Enya? I'm going to make room for you to talk about Enya if you want to.

[B]

I just thought it was lovely. I thought it was a perfect detail. I like. If you're gonna show us and play a song for us on loop while somebody's on hold. This is the sort of pure mood.

[A]

That I'm after, You know, capital P, capital M. Love that. This is about sukiyaki, which we're gonna talk about in a second. This plays when Harper's waiting in the sushi restaurant.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

And this is. This is a section I'm calling the Mad Men piece. This is a larger Mad Men piece. This is an ode to our friend Kai Grady, who loves Mad Men. But just thinking about the way in which the DNA for that show. This is the third episode in a row now that has had a needle drop from Mad Men in it this season.

[B]

That's crazy.

[A]

To be clear, Mad Men used most of the great music from the 1960s. So, like, you know, like, it's not necessarily every time a direct Mad Men allusion, but we got this. The. The listener who wrote in just under the name Eep wrote in to say the Cordelia auto sex scene from last week's episode Walking in mimics the framing of Sally Draper walking in on Megan's mom going down on Roger in Mad Men Season 5, episode 7, which traumatized Sally, who, of course, was played by Kiernan Shipka. And the episode two Needle drop. Is that All There is? Also plays in Mad Men beginning Dawn's final bender in the back half of the last season. So that, again, that's three episodes in a row we've had a Mad Men needle drop. I do want to talk about Sukiyaki in a second, which is one. Like, I actually have a playlist that's just titled Sukiyaki, and it is all the versions of that song, because I love that song and always have.

[B]

So what is your reaction when Harper walks into the restaurant and you hear it banging? Like, what are you fist pumping on your couch? Are you Leo pointing at the screen?

[A]

What's happening? Did I, like, leap up? And I know that that's used in Mad Men. So I was like, another Mad Men. But, like, also, I. I just rewound it and, like. And then I played it. I think I played it, like, nine times driving into the office today, and.

[B]

She'S complaining that he's 15 minutes late.

[A]

When she gets to listen to Sukiyaki.

[B]

That's what I'm saying.

[A]

Sukiyaki, by the way, is the American name of the song, which is a really dumb name for this song because it just means, like, beef soup, which is not anything that the song has to do with. I'll get back to that in a second. But I want to talk about. Let's talk about the Eric and Harper relationship and how it maps onto the Don and Peggy relationship. Is that something you've thought about? Is that something that makes any kind of sense to you?

[B]

Well, walk me through it. What are you thinking?

[A]

This idea that it's paternal, but also not. This is his protege. They have a fraught relationship. Sometimes they're on opposite sides of something. Sometimes they're together. An attempt to connect with, like, your work daughter because you can't connect with your real life daughter.

[B]

That checks out for sure.

[A]

Like, Sally Draper is here inside of this show. But we meet. Eric's very, like, sullen, probably for a reason daughter. And, like, I don't know, just the way that he's robe goblin ing around the suite seems very, like, inappropriate boundaries. Don Draper style. What do you think?

[B]

No doubt. But it's like, that's always a boundary that, like, that's kind of the one boundary Don didn't cross in some ways.

[A]

Yeah. No, I mean, like, he. He, like, gallantly kissed Peggy's hand, but he never tried it with Peggy.

[B]

Right.

[A]

And Eric, I think, crossed that line with Yaz. He has not crossed that line with Harper, and I would like him not to.

[B]

He hasn't. But he's also sleeping with women who, like, don't not look like Harper, who don't not fit her profile in a lot of ways. It's like, that is kind of the fundamental difference to me is there's something happening within the Eric Harper relationship that is just blatantly psychosexual in ways that Don and Peggy never really had. They had a lot. There's a lot of complicated dynamics at work between them, and that makes Mad Men so great. But this is something twisted and weirder and different. And so, yeah, there's like, an echo there, but it's. Yeah, it's the dark shadow of that relationship.

[A]

I like that. I think it makes a lot of sense to me that Mad Men is something that they would. You and I were talking before we recorded about how Mad Men's kind of having a moment with its placement on HBO streaming. Kai was telling us that when he's done with an episode of Industry, HBO is like, do you want to watch Mad Men? You know, like, it's. HBO knows what it's doing in that regard.

[B]

Feels a little weird to be like, hey, did you just watch Kieran and Ship act out a threesome? Here's young Sally Draper. But this is life.

[A]

Look, everything's bathing in a dry cleaning bag. But, like, we're on a flat timeline. But the idea of capitalism and its connection to storytelling is so keenly explored in Mad Men and also this show, right? This idea of identifying a need and then exploiting it. So I'm just going to hit you with some Don Draper quotes, and I'm gonna ask you if you feel like it could belong inside of this show.

[B]

Let's do it.

[A]

Advertise advertising is based on one thing. Happiness investing is based on one thing. Happiness.

[B]

Yeah. I mean, it Sounds like a lot like the happiness is a full stomach in this episode a little bit.

[A]

If you don't like what's being said, change the conversation.

[B]

Yeah, that's almost word for word from this season.

[A]

People want to be told what to do so badly that they'll listen to anyone.

[B]

Yaz believes it.

[A]

You are the product. You feeling something that's what's themselves. Not to them, not sex.

[B]

If you told me that was part of the Yaz pep talk to Henry in his office, I would in fact believe you.

[A]

Okay, and here's just some storytelling lines from this episode of industry. Right? The story ends where we say it ends, right. How good a storyteller are you? And how long can you sustain the story so we can prove it? And then can we be loud enough? Short only work is ugly, hard, investigative. It's anti status quo, anti establishment, anti power. And then last but not least, this is, I think, the most Don Draper core thing that Eric says. Tell mom you enjoyed yourself. Tell mom you had a good time here. Is that not.

[B]

I can see the words coming out of Jon Hamm's mouth, unfortunately.

[A]

Go tell mom you enjoyed yourself as.

[B]

You hand her money. That's the crucial part.

[A]

But again, like, this is not. This is not at all a knock on industry. I just think this is. We've been. We were already talking about the way storytelling crops up again and again and again in the end of this show. And so, like, what is the story? How can you change your own story? What story can you paint to these investors? Now, Harper does a, I think, shit job. And to be clear, Eric doesn't even shit her job in that meeting that they put together in their. It's not good teamwork in the suite that is also their office. Like, that's like. That is certainly not where I would have had that meeting. Like, to expose that we are living here and working here is not what I would have done. No, but they're usually quite. This is. This is a thing that Harper is gifted at. You know, we saw her do it especially a lot in season two of just sort of selling a narrative to someone and convincing them to go the way that she wants them to go inside of the market. And so this is. Their task is to help Jim on the journalism side. And we'll talk about that in a second. Put together the story of Tender is weak. Actually.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

Tender needs to be shorted.

[B]

Not just weak, but ultimately flawed legally and morally.

[A]

Right. Anything else you want to say about that before I get back to Sukiyaki? One of my favorite songs of all time.

[B]

Well, I would say just as far as the Harper piece of that she really succeeds only in planting the barest seed of intrigue. And it's really just off of. Not even like half baked would be putting it kindly. Right. Just like the implication based off a whiff of air that something is going on with tender and like there is just enough curiosity to get like one investor on the phone basically with absolutely ridiculous terms that Eric agrees to I think in large part because of this weird relationship he has with Harper. Right. It's like at this point he's not really after the money. Men are obsessed with legacy, but he's got a nice nest egg. He could have just golfed his way into oblivion if that's what he really wanted to do.

[A]

He's trying to find a work life. Work life balance.

[B]

I mean him being the like the proponent of work life balance is incredible.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

But like that's what he wants out of this in a way, right? It is a job. They like, sure make some money, whatever. But he wants this relationship with Harper and the fact that by the end he's like, I will like foot this $10 million risk and all I asked in exchange is that you tell me a little bit about your life. And the speed Joe with which she shuts that shit down is incredible and heartbreaking and like, just like a really sad turn for this character who doesn't have a lot else. Like, if we're gonna talk about like the legacy of Eric, like his children barely know him. He barely knows them. He has made all of these like trade offs in his life to make money that he doesn't even really care to spend at this point. And so when you talk about like the ways in which a show like this and Mad Men echo each other, those echoes are just like humanity, right? Like, those are just like the, the natural modern trade offs and concessions that we make and what we're willing to give up for what we think we want.

[A]

Not every person, but a certain personality.

[B]

And certainly a certain kind of person at a. At a level of affluence and a.

[A]

Certain kind of, from my perspective, American.

[B]

Personality, you know, we do it better than anybody else.

[A]

I do think it's interesting that like for Harper, Harper is really trying to make nothing personal. Even though the fact that she just hired like her boyfriend, her.

[B]

Her at least friends with benefits.

[A]

Yeah, right. That's messy. But she's just like, let's like nothing personal. Let's keep it clean for Yaz. Everything is personal, right? Everything is messy. Like, the way in which she. I'm not sure. I'm not saying her, like, true emotions are involved, but, like, she's at work with her husband, she's involved. She's ensnared Haley inside of this, like, sexual dynamic. When she's talking about how to deal with Princess Joanna, Johanna, no relation once again, and her terrible Nazi son, she says testy family members respond well to a bit of FaceTime and ego massage. Right. So this is like what she learned from Celeste, et cetera, of, like, this is how you manage people. You make it feel like a personal relationship. And Harper's like, business, business, business. Do you know what I mean?

[B]

I would say. I would say Harper is. Until she isn't. And, like, she wants to keep everyone at arm's length. But also her appeal to Sweet Pea is basically like, I would never lie to you. I promise you, I would never leave this without giving you a heads up. Like, trusting Harper at her word, I think is just probably a terrible idea. And anyone who's been around her for any period of time would know that. And I'm sure Sweet Pete does on some level too. But it's like, Harper isn't above the personal play when that is what suits her.

[A]

You're right. And she definitely would, like, use that on Eric or, you know, when she needed to and stuff like that.

[B]

But you're right that for Yaz, it's like the fault.

[A]

Right? Right.

[B]

It's like, I think she understands maybe better than anyone else on the show. I'm not saying this makes her a good person, but, like, how all knotted up all of this shit is the way that pow. Like, the fact that her mind would go from we have this business problem to I need to leverage my, like, now married in relatives publishing influence to get this Nazi a byline so that we can clear away for this merger. Like, she. She gets the way that modern power works and the ways that, like, soft power specifically can be leveraged. Right. Like, I think everything that happens in terms of the room with Jennifer Bevin is an extension of Yaz's influence.

[A]

Exactly.

[B]

Like, she just gets that better than anybody else.

[A]

It's what they call, like, soft skills. Right? Like, and tender skills. She understands that that's how power works inside of this. This context. Okay. What I want to say about Sukiyaki specifically is thinking about the trend that Yaz and her team are taking towards white nationalism, fascism, all of that. Right. Sukiyaki, which was this hit song in the US is seen as this example of a post World War II, sort of, like, globalization of Japanese culture. This idea of, like, sushi restaurants, Shogun, you know, this. This Japanese language pop hit. So the way in which, like, multiculturalism post World War II, the, like, benefits of that, you know, expanding across the globe. And again, when you think about the team that Harper Stern Tao has put together like this, I just, like, in just such a sharp contrast to the whiteness and the white passing of the. Of the other team that is amassing on. On the other side of the chessboard here. I think it's really interesting.

[B]

Absolutely.

[A]

The way it's used in Mad Men is in an episode where Don. Don Draper has to basically tell Mohawk Airlines after he has promised them that he will do business with them, he has to let them go, and that he's at a Japanese restaurant, and this waitress approaches him, and she's like, hi, you look handsome.

[B]

And alone.

[A]

Should. As he often does, should we do something about that? And he's like, for once in his life, Don Draper says no, because he feels so bad about basically cheating on Mohawk Airlines that he is faithful to Betty for literally probably the only time in his life. And that is the song that is playing. So I don't know. It's just like. I don't know if that's why they picked the song or if they were just like, this is a banger. We agree with you, Joanna. We also have a playlist that's just called Sukiyaki. But, like, um, I. I think it's interesting to think about those themes of, like, when do you keep your word? When do you fail on your word? When Harper gives her word or Yaz gives her word in this episode, I don't believe either of them. And that's an interesting place to be. That's another way in which you could think about Mad Men is like, Don Draper constantly did reprehensible things, and we're still rooting for him. Yeah. At the end of the day. And that's true of a lot of these people in this world too.

[B]

I think industry does an impeccable job of that. Again, Yaz is not a person who I would ever endorse the things that she does, but I am invested in that charact, and I am obviously invested in Harper's. And I think the balance of those ideas are so interesting, Joe, in terms of the team she's putting together, and especially coming from a position in which she was put as, like, a woke figurehead leader, a token leader of this fund into getting the power and influence in one that she legitimately does run through a relationship that she legitimately did build, fucked up as it may be. And when given the choice to build her team like she is hand selecting people who, in their ways, are kind of outcasts in these space or overlooked in these space, or there are walls of power that will prevent them from ever getting where it is that they think they want to or need to go. And Harper is the kind of character who. I don't know what she would do with that. I don't know to what extent she sees that as a play in the same way that she was a play for somebody else. I almost never trust her motivations. I think that's because the show has painted her to be exact, like, so incredibly unpredictable and so incredibly, like, clever and squirrely and evasive in terms of, like, ever getting pinned down in any one direction so much that she would be the one leveraged. Like, she always finds a way out in a way that I think is, like, incredible and deeply admirable in some ways, but also underhanded when it needs to be.

[A]

Absolutely. All right, you mentioned Yaz's proximity to the fourth estate, to journalism. So both Yaz and Harper have these two different arms of journalism, sort of working in concert with them. Right. Yaz has the power to place an article, be it about Jenny Bevin's future, you know, in. In the Labor Party, or get this Nazi byline, as you so perfectly put it earlier, right through the Viscount Norton, her uncle. So there's that. And that is like, legacy media.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

And then you've got.

[B]

And I think the implication is, like, tabloid legacy media a little bit.

[A]

Is it like. Is it the Sun? I thought it was, like, more like.

[B]

More esteemed than that.

[A]

Telegraph, Guardian.

[B]

Maybe you're right. Maybe wrong, though.

[A]

You're right, because he's like. He's like, we're gonna print this story about your dad's death.

[B]

Maybe it's walking the edge of, like, splitting the difference between the two Harps, of course.

[A]

Wrap on a gmail.com if you. If you in the UK have a better sense of the comp here for. For this particular slice of journalism. But our guy Jim, at this financial institution, much, much scrappier, sort of. Nobody gives a shit about this particular journalistic endeavor. And it's interesting because, like, what Yaz is doing is definitely corrupt. I'm just placing what stories I want to place in this paper. Yes, but it's not like what Jim and Harper doing are Doing is above board. Right. And I feel like I've seen this. You know, a comp that I made to you before we started recording was this 2003 BBC mini series, State of Play, which is incredible. And. And what I told you is that you're surely familiar with this, of the gif of James McAvoy sweating and, like, fanning himself. That's from State of Play 2003, but that's Bill Nighy, John Sim, David Morrissey. And it's about the intersection of journalism and Politics in the UK in 2003 and Scandal.

[B]

It turns out the two are related.

[A]

It's crazy, but the way in which that miniseries, which is an incredible miniseries, gets into. What does it mean to speak truth to power? What does it mean to be an incredibly flawed and vulnerable journalist yourself and go up against. Because he's got truth on his side, but he's also. Does messy.

[B]

I mean, there's maybe some axes to grind or a sense of, like, wanting to reestablish his honor. I don't know if you made this association, but as Harper is kind of, like, testing the waters and, like, why he's doing this and mentions that he not only got, like, worked in the FTX mess, but then wrote about it, reminded me a lot of. I don't want to call out this woman by name, but the. The writer at the. The financial editor, I believe, or writer at the Cut, who then talked about the ways in which she was financially scammed. And it's like, there's one thing to, like, go through these experiences, and then there's another level of like, oh, I'm gonna mine this for content.

[A]

Right.

[B]

And then where that puts you and kind of like, what it says about the state of the media industry, what it says about your need to establish a certain kind of voice that, like, why would you ever do that? Even if that were true, even if you did go, like, way over your skis and get involved in FTX in a way that you might. Why would you ever write about that?

[A]

Right, right. And it's this idea of, I promise I wouldn't talk about succession, but, like, thinking about succession.

[B]

And, like, don't make promises you can't.

[A]

It's very heartburn. Yes. Of me. But, like, this idea inside of succession, of, like, we've done something horrible. We are very powerful. We've done something horrible. So, yes, you know, Whitney knows what Tender is doing. He knows what Gorgeous Geoffrey is doing in Sunderland. Like, he's aware.

[B]

I mean, work in Excel.

[A]

That's all but can you prove it? And is anyone going to listen?

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And you're going to publish, but did anyone click on it?

[B]

Yes.

[A]

You know, how do you write? How do you cut above the noise? Right. How do you rise? How do you prove it?

[B]

And how, if you are in Jim's position, which is like, this is pretty inside baseball as far as journalism goes, but you hear from sources all the time. If you're a journalist doing your job. And maybe the most critical part of your job is first asking yourself, why is this person telling me these things?

[A]

What acts do they have to grind?

[B]

Exactly. What acts do they have to grind? What do they have to gain or to benefit? And look, there are people who will just share stuff for the sake of sharing stuff because they care about the broader sense of whatever industry they work in. Like that.

[A]

I'm not saying that, like, virtuous whistleblowers exist, but usually they have an extra grind or.

[B]

Or stand to profit quite a bit in the way that Harper does. Like, Harper is going to have access, we can only presume, to a lot of information and already has some. As far as to what Tender is doing.

[A]

Right. And Eric says the blowback of leaking the story pieceme to her is. Is huge. Why is Jim doing this at all? That he's. He's making himself vulnerable. He's making Harper vulnerable. So the way in which Harper and Jim, though, they are both right about Tender, though she and Sweet Pea do like, shoe leather reporting, they really do. Jim, you should have gone to Sunderland, obviously. But, like, it might not matter if the way in which they did this was shady enough that Tender can prove that. You know, we wanted to shout out the actor who plays Jim's editor, David Wilmot. This show loves a ginger, by the way. They do. Kenny's back.

[B]

Kenny back.

[A]

Kenny's back. David Wilmot, who we both know from Station 11, he was recently in Hamnet, plays his editor who gives him back, like, the redacted version of his piece. I'm hopeful because that's an actor that I, like, know and recognize and really like that we're gonna get a lot more of this sort of like, editorial, journalistic, you know, like, if Jim spins out because he seems quite chaotic.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Like, is there a way in which his editor can, like, carry on the piece or something like that? I don't know, but that's something I have my eye on.

[B]

I mean, that relationship has to have legs on this show. You almost don't introduce Jim as a character unless one you're very interested in getting into journalism in some aspect. And clearly this season is. And also you want to establish this as like not a co leading world of the show, but a counterbalancing, one that can be weaponized, you know, or can be manipulated or in some ways can check in theory some of the powerful bases in practice. I have my doubts why the fourth.

[A]

Estate is there, but what can it do? But I do think this show has become. You know, there were complaints in last week's episode that the show lost the thread on being a show about finance. And you certainly couldn't say that in this episode. We are back to the world of finance in a serious way inside of episode three. But this season, in the greater introduction of politics, even more so than we've had before, and the introduction of journalism, it's sort of like this triangulated or the nobility. Then it's like a square of like, power. What is power? It's money. It's nobility. It can be journalism influence, you know, influence and politics.

[B]

See, I would argue it was never about finance. I mean, you and I and Jodi love this show and we spent the first episode trying to figure out what a short was. Exactly. It's like those mechanisms are the trappings, right? They are the ways that the show propels forward, but they're not really what it's about.

[A]

Our guy Kenny, who's back, has this incredibly juicy line. The buy side is full of tyrants who deny their tyranny. The sell side is full of slaves who deny their servitude. Somewhere in the middle all of human life. Kenny, poet on the walk and talk to the elementary.

[B]

I know, making it look easy.

[A]

Yeah, yeah, Just pop down from his.

[B]

Desk, has this stuff locked and loaded.

[A]

How do you feel about. And again, harpsichords drop on gmail.com. because we are not financial experts, but.

[B]

I think legally we are required to say on this podcast, we are not financial advice.

[A]

Do not take any financial advice from us.

[B]

Do not.

[A]

But we've got a bunch of fictional companies banging about PeerPoint tender, you know, et cetera, et cetera. But occasionally we get a Goldman Sachs or in this case a Deutsche Bank. Like, do you. Do you like. Does that mean anything to you? That they occasionally go to like a real financial institution or.

[B]

I think it's helpful only as a shorthand. Right. In this case, it's like kind of shots fired at Deutsche Bank. It's like, oh, this is a real step down for Kenny in a lot of ways. Right. So it helps contextualize, Right. What these institutions the real ones are in relation to the fictional ones.

[A]

Right. We get Kenny in this episode. We get good old Hilary Windham, like, last seen wearing a mask on the. No, probably not last scene, but, like, really memorably in season two, wearing a mask on the floor. And then at one point, he gets, like, a bust of himself out from a package. I don't know if you remember that from season two.

[B]

I somehow don't.

[A]

But Hillary, who was like, yeah, as a supervisor and Kenny's supervisor. So we get him on the phone. Um, and. Is there anyone else from a previous season that you're dying to see come back?

[B]

Oh, my God. It's a great question. I'm not even trying to even think who would even be on the bench.

[A]

I think the moment when they were at. I think it was. It was at Goldman, where Daria and Kenny were, like, on the other side of the table from them, was like, a truly wonderful moment. Daria. I'm always ready for Daria to come back personally. Um, yeah. Is there anyone else you would like to see?

[B]

I have a great answer. I need to brainstorm on it.

[A]

Okay. You mentioned Eric's very risky financial stake in this. $10 million doesn't seem like a good decision. No.

[B]

Just to buy your surrogate work daughter a pony. I wouldn't do it personally.

[A]

Sure. Is this going to go well for him? Is this going to be fine?

[B]

Does anything go well for anybody on this show?

[A]

Great question.

[B]

I think. Look, once you reach a certain level of power, things can only get so bad. But in a sense, Eric is risking that level of power. Right. He's risking the insulation that would allow him to kind of go about his life in a devil may care way.

[A]

So this is.

[B]

It could be a real comeuppance for him. I hope not in the same way that I'm rooting for another character who. Eric is, you know, not great himself in terms of some of the decisions he makes and the ways he treats people. And I know he is now our bastion of work life balance, but has not always been such true.

[A]

Um, can I ask you a really important question, Rob, Please. Were you to have a future, as I believe it's our colleague Katie Baker who used this term in her recap last week to robe goblin your way through life. Would you rather dressing gown harpsichord heroine robe goblin your way through life, like Henry Muck.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Or nouveau riche. $10 million to burn hotel room service forever rope goblin your way through life like Eric?

[B]

I don't know what it says about me, but for some reason, Eric's feels sadder. There's something about, like, even being in, like, a borderline haunted manor that is now a museum, playing on the do not play harpsichord slash sniffing drugs while you do it. Sure feels less sad than being perpetually in a hotel room in the same robe, eating the same room service every day. There's just. There's something a little too old boy to that for me.

[A]

Do you have. Do you have a go to room service order?

[B]

I mean, burger is the safest bet.

[A]

That's your. That's your. Okay.

[B]

I really. I mean, with all due respect to the fine room service cooks out there and the hotel. Hotel chefs. Yeah, most hotels. I'm just not trusting that much beyond the burger. It's a fine club sandwich, maybe a salad.

[A]

Can I tell you what mine is?

[B]

Please do.

[A]

It's. And I don't usually do, like, it'll be like a breakfast. Cause usually, like, when we're in hotels, we're like, traveling for work or like, often traveling for work.

[B]

Very true.

[A]

If I'm paying for room service in a hotel, it's because I'm expensing this hotel, not out of pocket trip, right? No, like, if I'm on vacation, we're not doing so weird.

[B]

I thought you would love a $32 omelet.

[A]

It's eggs Benedict. Eggs Benny.

[B]

See, that's wild. You're trusting.

[A]

Really good.

[B]

You're trust. You're trusting.

[A]

Hotel eggs Benny.

[B]

Your life. To hotel Hollandaise.

[A]

Yeah, yeah.

[B]

I Simply could not.

[A]

Hotelhollandaysmail.com all right. Anything else you want to say about this episode that we haven't said?

[B]

I did want to talk about one more thing, Joe. As far as Harper and Eric are concerned, you know, they have this big confrontation in the hotel suite, which I assume will just be the setting of all their confrontations from now going forward.

[A]

Well, they did leave the house. That's good. When they went to Deutsche Bank.

[B]

I did appreciate that sweet pea was like, really on a roll, like, explaining the ins and outs of this, like, deep investigative work she was doing, only to be interrupted by Eric flushing the toilet in the other room.

[A]

Mortifying. Also, we should talk about Rishi showing up here. Yeah, yeah.

[B]

But let's circle back to them in a second. I think the kind of, like, paired desperation, whether they're aware of it or not, between Harper and Eric's circumstances, where she goes out on a limb and is just like, saying very plainly, like, how important this is to her, that this kind of is her only leg to stand on. And I think you can see it in the way she's conducting herself, where she's always been a workaholic, but it's always Harper. It's true.

[A]

I feel like when I think of Harper, I think of her from season one on with, like, cokey eyes, like, rapidly chewing gum. Everything's on the edge of collapse always. Right.

[B]

I mean, it's kind of the only way she knows how to operate is everything is on fire and it burns down, and then she tries to grab onto something else and then sets that on fire and burns it down. But the way in which she's kind of leaping into this investigative work, too, I mean, it's. It is a journalism of a different kind. Like, she is leveraging and working, Jim, in order to, like, basically manipulate Tender Share Price, but she's also the one who's on hold getting into that Orinoco flow in a way that's like. I don't know, like, the process parts of this episode are a little Spotlight are a little, like, enlightened. Season two are a little, like Pelican Brief. Like, there's. There's just, like, pouring through in a way that obviously appeals to people like us who have done, like, if you've done any kind of digging or journalistic work before, but.

[A]

Well, you say Pelican Brief, and I'm sure if Mickey and Conrad are listening and actually emailing us about me, Joe Black. They're excited. Excited because they're like, 90s thriller. That's what we're going for.

[B]

Oh, and a good one this time.

[A]

Nietzsche Black is not a thriller.

[B]

It's not, but it is 90s Pelican Brief rules.

[A]

If they're like, we're doing full. We're going full Grisham.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

Like, that's great bad news for journalists inside of those. It doesn't really usually work out for journalists.

[B]

Does not.

[A]

I'm not. I'm not betting big on Jonathan Byers and Stranger Things making it through this season.

[B]

No, I think it's. It, like, that's a bit of, like, a casting spoiler in its own way, where it's like casting somebody who was most recently known for being like, a teenager on a beloved vintage property. I think, to me, is like a great shorthand for maybe this guy is in over his head in ways he can't even begin to comprehend.

[A]

It's like the apocalypse. And also journalism. Two hard things to wrap your arms around.

[B]

The true. Upside down.

[A]

Like, what. What is Eric bringing to this conversation? Like, you're Talking about Harper's desperation, what do you feel like Eric is bringing?

[B]

Well, I think he's in his way, just as vulnerable, but almost doesn't care. Right. It's like everything he's putting on the table, everything he's putting at risk, he seems like, not oblivious to it, but it's like, whatever, man.

[A]

This feels. Well, this feels very, like, it's very in the water right now. This very, like, late Don Draper or if you prefer, end of Marty supreme or end of J. Kelly or whatever, where it's like, is dad. Is being a dad important actually? Is that the most important part?

[B]

Well, also, is dad okay?

[A]

Is dad okay? It's never okay, but, like, it is interesting because, you know, you talked about last week, I think you talked about Henry and Yaz, and they're like sort of twin daddy issues. Right. Harper and her twin issues. Right. But like, there's the daddy issues on that side of the story, and then there's like Eric being the issue ridden daddy on this side of the story, which I think is really interesting.

[B]

How do you read all that from Harper's perspective? Because she's like, she wanted Eric here.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

You know, so it's like she is also pursuing this relationship in a way. But is Eric just more of a means to an end for her? Do you think there actually is something to that relationship?

[A]

Well, I think it goes back to, like, when you think back to season one and the moment where Eric locks Harper in that room and then she then like, reports on him and then sort of recants and Daria is out and stuff like that. Do you feel like she. Like she was actually terrified in that moment when she was locked in the room with him?

[B]

I would need to go back and check the tape.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

My memory of it. And like, again, maybe this is just all of her cumulative actions kind of coloring my perspective is that, yeah, there's an element of fear, but there's also the story you can tell. And there's also the way you can use this.

[A]

Cause, like, and then he also. He fired her, allegedly for her own good. Like, is that how you. Did you believe him when he was like, when he exposes her at Purepoint, did you believe that he did that for her own good? That's the story he told us, the viewer. But do you believe that's why he got rid of her?

[B]

I don't.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

I mean. Well, I guess maybe the answer to all these questions for me is like, kind of both, you know, like, I do believe on some level he thinks that Is it the actual driving course of his actions? Probably not.

[A]

So with nowhere to turn, she turns to Eric because she knows that he has some sort of, like, weird attachment to her and that she can sort of leverage her position with him towards something.

[B]

I think it comes from that. Yeah.

[A]

But will there forever be trust issues? Like, is there too much damage for there to be, like, an actual partnership there?

[B]

I think there is a weird kind of trust, and some of it is, like, in. Yes, she is turning to Eric because that's a relationship she can work and someone who. Like an ally, in a sense, even if it's an opportunistic one. But it's also someone who actually does sort of understand her on a level that other people don't and sees something in her. There's, like, a mutual understanding between them of, like, we are this kind of person.

[A]

Right.

[B]

And regardless of the stories we tell or what we project to the world or even what we do to each other, like, that's never gonna change.

[A]

Yeah. Speaking of broken trust forever, we should talk about Rishi. So he shows up. Sweet Pea's like, fuck this. I'm out. You and I were talking about, how did it all actually end with Rishi and Sweet Pea last season. Was there something that he did directly to her? There are smaller cuts that he made to Sweet Pea, but it seems like her reaction here is as much based on these. This public perception of Rishi that he was involved in his wife's murder, which.

[B]

He was involved in his wife's murder.

[A]

But, like, that he maybe murdered her or something like that. So I don't believe that Harper will not be turning to Rishi again when she needs someone to do work for her. I don't. I believe that Harper will try to make it that Sweet Pea and Rishi are not in the same room again. But, you know, needs must. She's gonna, you know, take what she can take.

[B]

Also, it's worth noting, Sweet Pea's objection was not even necessarily, like, you can't work with this guy. It's. I don't ever want to be.

[A]

Yeah. Don't put me in the same role.

[B]

Like, do not put us together ever again in any context.

[A]

Anything else you want to talk about?

[B]

I thought this was just a fine episode of tv.

[A]

Fine. You're using fine in, like, the very positive sense.

[B]

Oh, yes. Like, I quite enjoyed it. I quite enjoy just, like, the twists and turns that industry takes, even when it's like, could you have seen the Adolf Hitler twist coming a little bit? Sure.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

But seeing it play out and seeing all of the layers build of like, again, the deals we're willing to make with ourselves and with our situation in order to like, facilitate whatever business ventures we have. Like, even with all of that kind of slowly layering, I appreciated the structure of it.

[A]

Okay, so this has been a great. A fine episode of this podcast.

[B]

Fine, fine episode.

[A]

If we're clipping anything for social media, I think it should be you in isolation. Just saying. Get this Nazi a byline endorsed by Rama.

[B]

What are you trying to do here?

[A]

And we miss Jodie Walker a lot. Obviously we will be talking to her about every squelch when she returns for episode four.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Press utvotify.com, harpsichord straponmail.com if you have me, Joe Black opinions or anything else. And we will, you know, we'll be back. Anything else you want to say about, like, we're how many episodes? And we're three episodes into. Is it an eight episode?

[B]

I believe it's an eight episode season.

[A]

We're almost halfway done. That's wild. Thanks to Devin Ronaldo, we'll be back always. Bye. It.