Rob Mahoney (2:34)

A real missed opportunity by us. We really should watch ahead. But if we had teased from episode one Jon Snow Glory hole. I mean just imagine how differently people would have been experiencing this season.

Jodie Walker (2:46)

Is this the first glory hole of industry?

Joe (2:49)

I. I believe so. I think it is the most literal. I feel like we've had metaphorical glory holes but this is. We are Literalizing the metaphor here.

Jodie Walker (2:58)

Yeah, this one was taped up.

Joe (3:00)

I want to. I want to start with the most important thing, and I think we'll all agree that happens in this episode. Our guy Anraj is alive and well and working for Jesse Blum. Jodie Walker, how do you feel about it?

Jodie Walker (3:14)

I was thrilled. He looked like an adult. I was so happy for him to be away from Rishi. I mean, I guess in the loving arms of Jesse Bloom. So maybe, you know, is there anywhere good to be in this world we're watching? I'm not sure. But he looked happy, did he not?

Joe (3:32)

He looked like he was thriving. And here's what I hope. I hope that as Eric's usage of hotel bathrobes has ridden, Jesse Blume's has fallen and he is no longer sort of robe goblin ing his way through life. A sort of post prison Jesse Bloom. That's my hope. Rob, would you like to weigh in on the most important moment of our. Of our times, which is on Raj's appearance in this episode?

Rob Mahoney (3:56)

I just don't like the sideswipe you're taking at robe goblins. Like, that is a whole way of life, and you're just talking down to those people.

Joe (4:02)

Rob, is it because robe has the word Rob in it that you feel the need to defend it? Are you a real robe guy? Like, what's your.

Rob Mahoney (4:08)

This is an eye opening moment for me. I don't know how I feel about Rob Goblin, but I have no choice but to you.

Jodie Walker (4:16)

You'll learn to love it.

Joe (4:17)

Okay. Jodie Walker, did you like this episode of television?

Jodie Walker (4:21)

It was a little harder to swallow than your average industry episode. For me, it was a lot. It was a big leap into Russian cabals. It was a lot of focus on Whitney. It was devastating in terms of my beloved but morally corrupt Eric. It was. It was a difficult episode. I did not not like it, but I did find it challenging and, like, really needed to watch it twice.

Rob Mahoney (4:56)

Industry does this thing where, like, it's walking oftentimes on the razor's edge of, like, we might teeter into melodrama. We might veer into ridiculousness. Oh, no, we're definitely veering into ridiculousness. But the experience of watching it is exhilarating in a way because of all those things that nothing else is on TV right now. Like, the sheer unpredictability of this show where I guess we're just watching the Americans now. And I had no idea that's the show that we were going through this whole time. And I'm down for that, and I'm here for it. But, like, along the way, every step feels so rickety. And in a way, I really like that. It just makes it so hard to understand where we are from moment to moment.

Jodie Walker (5:35)

Yeah, Like, Harper has lived in the UK for a decade now, and we haven't had to hear anything about a passport or a visa. This was like the first time a passport has come into play. And we've sort of had to wonder where people came from.

Joe (5:47)

Max Minghella, in an interview with our beloved Katie Baker, when we, when we see the Lithuanian passport for your favorite character, Jody Whitney, Max Minguela said, you're meant to question whether or not he's actually American at all. Like, we're not, we're not sure. I don't think he's confirming or denying or the show is confirming or denying whether or not this is a fake passport or whether or not this is Whitney's true origins, that he is a Lithuanian who remade himself as an American. But one of my favorite sort of things that the Reddit detectives have decided is that because Whitney sang some Whitney Houston on the phone to Harper, I want to dance with somebody, they have decided that he named himself after Whitney Houston. And I just want to, if that's true, which I don't think it is, but if that's true, I kind of want that story of like, how a Lithuanian who decided to remake himself as American decided that Whitney Houston would be his namesake in this endeavor.

Rob Mahoney (6:46)

Joe, with all due respect, why wouldn't it be like a God tier song, a God tier wedding bop, among other things, but really just summer jam? Like, when is I want to dance with somebody a bad idea? And when is styling yourself after Whitney Houston maybe, certain elements aside, a bad idea?

Jodie Walker (7:02)

I'm just wondering about Harper's Reddit investigation experience in that moment. She is already freaked out by him singing on the phone after making just like a lot of, you know, very obvious statements that he is a purebred sociopath. And then she has to be like, he's singing a song named after himself.

Joe (7:23)

Is that what we're doing here? That's what he's doing. Do you think he should have, if he was going to name himself after Whitney Houston should have been like, first name Whitney, last name, I want to dance with somebody.

Jodie Walker (7:32)

I wish he'd named himself Houston.

Joe (7:36)

Deal that you with somebody?

Rob Mahoney (7:37)

Have either of you had someone breathily sing a ballad or a pop song of any kind over the phone in exactly the manner that Whitney has? Is this like a common universal experience that I've been missing out on.

Joe (7:49)

Define Breathily.

Rob Mahoney (7:50)

I mean, I think we just saw it a little talk singing. But like you can. You can feel his confidence building as it goes. For good or ill.

Joe (7:58)

I have. I don't. I've definitely been serenaded on the phone before. Before. I don't know if I've been serenaded with menace on the phone before. What do you think, Jody?

Jodie Walker (8:05)

Yes, Because Breathaly is not always menacing. I've been sung to Breathly. I didn't take it as menacing, but I should have. It was a threat.

Joe (8:15)

All right. Before. So we. By we, I mean me. I've decided that we're going to sort of talk about all of the Eric Tao stuff towards the end of this podcast is this might be given the sort of seemingly exit interviews that Ken Leung has been giving around the old Internet. It seems like this is Eric Tao's great bow out of the series, which is really felt like she walked right.

Jodie Walker (8:39)

Into the distance there.

Joe (8:40)

Sure did. Off into a sunset. Question mark. So we will talk about all of that and there's a lot to talk about, sort of more towards the end. So I want to get some other things out of the way first. And as Jodie alluded to, there's a lot to get to in this episode. I want to start by saying really quickly something that because we recorded our last episode about industry a little early, I didn't get a chance to sort of lean on my favorite crush, which is Katie Baker's incredible recaps over on the ringer.com and so she had this great insight. First of all, Mickey down said that he had been trying to get Ghana into the show for a while because his mother is from Ghana. So that was like part of it. And then also we've been talking about the wire card fraud this whole season, how it's like a real model for what's going on. In the wire card investigation done by the Financial Times. Katie Baker points out that that an investigator, Stefania Palma, great name. Traveled to the Philippines and found a very similar sort of shell game operation happening in the Philippines as Sweet Pea and Kwabana find in Ghana. So that was sort of the direct inspo for. I want to read this one. Quote, there was a listed address that, quote, led to a private home in a remote village surrounded by rice paddies where, quote, Palma was greeted by two Filipino men who were grooming a small white poodle and a Pomeranian. Neither of them had heard of the sort of parent company.

Rob Mahoney (10:11)

So, I mean, look, Joe, first Of all, as a reporter, that is the image that you dream of. That is the scene setting that you wish you could walk into for every story. But unfortunately, it's a lot more just like people in rooms, people, offices.

Joe (10:23)

I love that Stefania had her notebook ready and she was like, is that a Pomeranian? Great. Got to write it that down. Make sure.

Jodie Walker (10:29)

Like that you got.

Joe (10:30)

You got to have it in there. This is all according to this massive sort of New Yorker piece on the wire card scandal that Katie has been drawing from and a couple of her recaps. Our pal Chris Ryan read the whole thing and was texting me this weekend where he was like, this is basically the blueprint for the show. So if you want to read about the wire card scandal and everything that happened, there's a lot of places you can do it. But apparently this, like, specific New Yorker profile is a good resource to sort of. And maybe it has spoilers for the rest of the season. I don't know. So maybe you don't want to read it. Spoilers from reality. But that is something to think about. On the Epstein Ghislaine Maxwell watch that. This our. Our favorite thing to do here on this absolutely not current podcast.

Rob Mahoney (11:16)

Joe, we need to get you other hobbies. I gotta say, this is distressing for you.

Joe (11:21)

I did watch another documentary, but we don't need to talk about it. But as. As the fsb, the. The Russian intelligence sort of makes its way into this show, it's worth noting that Glenn Maxwell's father was in deep with the kgb. That this idea of, like Russian kompromat, or what do they call it? Razo Blossomy. This idea of, like, exposure and the way in which you can wield it for people. This is like one of Epstein's favorite plays. And in the recent Epstein files that were released, there are messages back and forth with Russian intelligence about certain pieces of blackmail, stuff like that. So this is sort of classic, I don't know about killing journalists because isn't that our assumption that the shadowy Russian faction that is associated with Whitney is. Is the reason why Jim Diker died? Would you agree with that? Jodi, what do you think?

Jodie Walker (12:13)

Yeah, I think now that we have offers to kill on the table and we are fairly confident someone has been killed, it was probably by this shadowy group. And I also have some questions about Whitney's former assistant, Haley.

Joe (12:29)

Exactly right. What do you want to say?

Jodie Walker (12:31)

The disappeared assistant.

Joe (12:33)

Oh, the disappeared assistant for sure. But also when Haley comes in and is like, hey, I'm an escort, my little Cousin, also someone that you used in all of this. This is. I don't think it's reaching to say that this is. We are doing Epstein like work here. What do you think, Rob?

Rob Mahoney (12:52)

I'm distressed that we're doing Epstein like, work here. I was hoping to avoid this particular space, but as you've been laying out week by week, Joe, puzzle piece by puzzle piece, we've been here. We've been living here for a long time, unfortunately, on industry. So I'm. I am, though, both impressed and enjoying the degree to which the fraud is, like, not even the icing on the cake. Like, the financial shell game part of all this is now just like, oh, that was just like a thing that they were doing for fun, basically, to cover up, slash, compliment all of this other associated crime and infiltration and subterfuge that's been happening behind the scenes the whole time. I'm like, my mind is spinning at the possibilities that were kind of laid bare this week by everything that's been happening in the background of the show while we were chasing the shell game.

Jodie Walker (13:33)

The Umbrella has really widened in terms of worlds that we're dealing with. When Harper is, like, kind of pleading to Yaz, like, he's not your hobbyist sociopath like me. He's a criminal. You know, we've been doing this tete a tete for our whole young adulthood, and that's been well and good, but we are in, like, a different league now. And I think Harper is probably realizing the depths of that league as he sings Whitney Houston to her on the phone. I don't think she even knows. Maybe only, like, Haley knows. I mean, I guess we're also learning Whitney doesn't know. Like, Whitney doesn't know the extent to what he's. He's dealing with. Tony has a real hollow look in his eye that makes me think he knows.

Rob Mahoney (14:19)

We had our conversation earlier this season about cult leaders and the pecking order and who holds the actual power. And I thought this week was like, a big zoom out on Whitney to find maybe he's not even at the top. Maybe he's the powerless second in command that we were talking about. As, like, Ferdinand is kind of, like, managing and running him. It seems like at times in this episode. And clearly he is manipulating Tony and he's also manipulating Haley. It's like there's so many puppet strings attached to so many people, it's hard to kind of trace back who is actually pulling them.

Jodie Walker (14:47)

Well, and when we're focused in on Whitney, it seems like he's doing so much work. I mean, he's flying to Ghana every other day. You know, he's spinning his wheels. He's always moving. He's so busy. And then when you just zoom out a little bit and you get a bigger adult in the room, it's like, oh, he's spinning his wheels. He's finding something to do to stay in control of this. I mean, he's no more.

Rob Mahoney (15:11)

Who could relay Jodie?

Jodie Walker (15:13)

Not me. These wheels are still. They got me in a swivel chair over here. I am not still.

Joe (15:19)

The revelation that Ferdinand is sort of ranks above him, I think will make this season a really enjoyable. Enjoyable. Debatable, but an interesting rewatch because he was in the room in so many of these conversations where we thought Whitney was the person pulling all the largest strings. And that was not the case. So, like, how much. I mean, he has been speaking of menacing. Like, he has been giving off menacing energy all season. I think we clocked that from the beginning. But, like, the degree to which he is actually the one sort of making the calls, but being silent in rooms, I think is a really interesting thing to think about. Just for fun, guys, two other Epstein connections here. There is this exchange in that came out of the most recent Epstein file release between Nate Rothschild and the British politician Peter Mendelssohn, where Nate said to him. Or not, sorry, not. Rothschild said to him, quote, you're tragically naive as to how the financial system works. Part of their job is to find suckers like you to sit on boards. Is that not the. The Henry Muck story writ large? Right? This is what Harper says to Yaz. Let me put this in terms your ego might listen to. You've been duped by a man who saw you and your husband as fools. That's just the way of the world. And, and the. What happened here and then last month. And I do not think that the show is trying to. To draw a connection between Harper and Jeffrey Epstein. That is never something that I would say. But our listener Zoe wrote in to harpscore. Strap on gmail dot com. What a great email address to point out that Jeffrey Epstein, when he went to go work at Bear Stearns, lied on his CV about the fact that he went to school, finished school, Right? This is a quote from a New York Times Magazine article. This guy, Ace Greenberg, had helped build Bear Stearns into one of industry's scrappiest firms by eschewing the traditional investment banking practice of hiring ivy Leaguers with MBAs. He preferred what he called PSDs those who were poor, smart and had a deep desire to become rich. Epstein fit the bill. He grew up in a working class family in Coney island and basically while he was working there, he was found out that he had lied on his CV about going to college and said when he was asked why did you do it? He said, without an impressive degree or two, quote, I knew nobody would give me a chance. Right. And then they kept him on anyway. And this was like this is, this is highlighted as sort of an early example of Jeffrey Epstein's ability to sort of weasel out of a number of situations or project so much confidence in the room that even when he's exposed as having blatantly broken the rules or lied that he got away with it and he kept his job at Bear Stearns. Jodie Walker. Anything you want to say about?

Jodie Walker (18:09)

Well, it just reminds me of what Henry says to Whitney. You know, a little character fraud is fine as long as your heart is pure. Which is an insane thing for Henry to say, whose heart is not pure and called his wife a cunt earlier. It's really a pretty wild thing for anyone in this show to say, but it is an interesting framework with which to approach industry. Is like everyone's doing character fraud.

Rob Mahoney (18:37)

Yes.

Jodie Walker (18:38)

Except maybe Yaz, who is the least successful person that we interact with on a day to day basis. Everyone is doing some sort of character fraud to get ahead.

Joe (18:50)

Is.

Jodie Walker (18:51)

Is anyone's heart pure? Like is anyone's heart in it for even just neutral reasons? And you know, I found myself in this episode being like maybe Harper's okay. She was sort of a port in a storm.

Joe (19:06)

Honestly, Harper is looking the best out of anyone in this season as far as like it's sweet pea and then it's Harper. That's where my bar is. Honestly, currently that's a rough bar.

Rob Mahoney (19:17)

I mean I think as far as the character fraud part of this goes, there is like a delicious irony to. And in this episode in particular, Harper is really like wearing the cloak of the crusader, like the do Gooder. I am bringing down the corrupt institution from within that is built on this fraud.

Jodie Walker (19:33)

But as you just wearing her iconic five piece suit that she's been debuting new pieces of throughout the season.

Rob Mahoney (19:39)

I stand corrected. But as you said Jill, like her career itself is based on a like not dissimilar fraud. Like the Harper story and the tender story are ultimately not that far apart.

Joe (19:50)

It's like I really, I really disagree with you. Yes.

Rob Mahoney (19:54)

I mean one of them is run by the Russian government. But Other than that Harper lying on.

Joe (19:57)

Her CV to get a job versus, yeah, that Russian. Killing journalists is like two very different things.

Rob Mahoney (20:06)

I'm talking strictly about, like, the financial maneuvering that is leading tender to become a bigger and bigger company. Right. The shell game part of it, right, of like, if you have a fundamental lie that you can sell hard enough and then keep things moving so that people don't look too closely, you can convince people of almost anything as far as where you came from. And so many of the characters on the show as we're talking about are rooted in these sorts of lies or have kind of rewritten their histories to be basically whatever they need them to be at a given moment.

Jodie Walker (20:32)

But what are your goals in this rewriting in these narratives? And I think that when you look at Harper, her goals are almost always insular. They are to get herself more money. I think they're rarely even power driven. They are, they are wealth and perhaps power for herself. But when you look at someone like Whitney, who's always trying to go bigger and bigger and bigger and for what? Why are you. Why are you trying to disrupt banks? What will you get out of this? Will you finally be able to wear Henry like a skin suit if you disrupt banks? No, but it must feel like that.

Joe (21:10)

Let's talk about Winnie and Henry here. So, you know, to your point, Robyn, I think that's. You can. You can definitely make the case. And we've certainly pulled out quotes all season about you tell your own story. The story begins when you start telling it, all that sort of stuff like that we're all confidence men in one shape or another inside of this story, when Henry says to Whitney, in a rare moment of clarity, why does everything from your life sound like a bad novel? I really love that line. And then followed with, don't worry, man, I've got plenty of middle class friends. Which is just like, tough. The meanest he's ever said Henry moment. I feel like the Whitney Henry story, which had already, you know, we had seen some, like, close talking, some hands on the shoulder, all this stuff like that. I think we took a hard right turn into talented Mr. Ripleyville inside of this episode when we've got, you know, basically like, how's the peeping, Tommy? Like, when we get, yeah, Whitney walking in to look at Henry while he's showering. And Henry like, well, nobody takes baths anymore.

Rob Mahoney (22:13)

You know, we're a shower culture now.

Joe (22:15)

Exactly. It's not Jude Law in a bathtub, but it'll do.

Jodie Walker (22:18)

Did that shower not have a Door.

Joe (22:22)

I'm actually. Jodi, this is an epidemic. Like, I don't know if it's just like, maybe a very specific LA epidemic, but there are so many LA showers and hotels that do not have those half doors. Yeah. Just like, have like five inches of glass. And then they're like, good luck with the spray everywhere else.

Jodie Walker (22:40)

So this one just seemed to be sort of unfinished. It was like it just had nothing between.

Joe (22:48)

His coworker on this, like, don't worry, man. I've got plenty of middle class friends moments. I was the moment in Talented Mr. Ripley where Tom Ripley and Dickie Greenleaf, as played by Matt Damon Judlaw, are in the boat and everything goes badly. Very badly, to put it mildly. But right before things go from bad to worse for Dickie Greenleaf, when he turns on Tom, he says, who are you? Some third class mooch? Who are you? Who are. Who are you to say anything to me? Who are you to tell me anything? This idea of, like, when push comes to shove, people of a certain class, you know, the Dickie Greenleafs and the Sir Henry Mux of the world will just sort of say, like, remember your place, right? Remember who you're talking to here. And in your aspiration to be me, you will never be me. This is not an avenue of opportunity for you, Jodi. What do you. What are you thinking about?

Jodie Walker (23:41)

But they're both examples of. Of men saying that right down until the moment they're getting whacked in the head with an oar. You know, like, in the end, what does your class mean? I don't know when anybody can kill you. And what happens to Henry? At the end of this episode, he reads a handwritten letter about how he's implicated in all these crimes. Where did your class class get you? It got you somewhere, but it doesn't get you everywhere.

Joe (24:07)

No, I'm not saying it will protect you, but it's just sort of like the defense, the ultimate defense that these types of people feel like they can put right.

Jodie Walker (24:14)

And it's fascinating to, like, watch this, you know, breed of person do that right up until the bitter end. And to cling to that safety, that has always been false. And we see Yaz do that too, in her own ways, in her apparently lower class than Henry. I actually thought, when he called him middle class, I was like, oh, is that nice? Because I don't. I don't know if he's even middle class. I don't. You know, he's not within whatever class system we know, but it's true. I guess from what we've understood from his story, he's really said that he's come from nothing, Whitney. So him being like, I have lots of middle class friends, he doesn't have any low class friends.

Rob Mahoney (24:53)

It felt like a dig coming from Kate Harrington, that's for sure.

Jodie Walker (24:55)

Oh, yes.

Rob Mahoney (24:56)

The way it spilled out of his mouth felt insulting. And I'm glad you brought up the letter, Jody, because to me, like writing the letter like this is literally in my handwriting explaining all of these crimes that we have committed together or really I have committed, but I'm now assigning to you is just like a totally different kind of flex than even batting someone over the head with an or. Like the, the display of power, I think, from Whitney in saying, here's all this shit you didn't even begin to think to know. And I am putting it on you and bringing you into it, whether you would like to be or not. Is this a kind of maneuvering that I don't think Henry has ever really been capable of and certainly doesn't seem to know what to do with?

Jodie Walker (25:34)

Well, it's. I mean, in this weird way that it is with Whitney, like, it's intimacy, you know, like it's not, it's not. It's intentional that it's handwritten like this. To him, this does seem like a romance or a sharing of self. And I don't know if Henry has really been someone who's like been capable of being known because he doesn't know himself. And then he has this strange man coming in and sort forcing all of this intimacy on him, which is to say nothing of the sort of spooned glory hole blowjob. Like it's a. It's an interesting predicament for him to be in as he continues to pull further and further away from his wife.

Rob Mahoney (26:16)

Now I'm wondering if Glory Hole in My Bucket should have been the email address we launched for this season.

Joe (26:20)

There's a glory hole in my bucket. Dear Liza.

Jodie Walker (26:22)

Oh man.

Joe (26:24)

I. I just want folks to know, if you're listening to this podcast, that means you missed the hand gesture that Jodie just did when she said spooned glory hole moment. It was pretty fantastic.

Jodie Walker (26:33)

It was actually out of my control. I just remember doing it.

Rob Mahoney (26:37)

I did love that moment though, Jo. Just, I mean, just to really zoom in on the spooning at the glory hole.

Jodie Walker (26:42)

Oh, please.

Rob Mahoney (26:43)

But to me, it was like the most talented Mr. Ripley element of all this. Even more so than the shower of like. Yeah, there is a degree to which it seems like Whitney definitely just like, wants to fuck Henry and wants some physical part of him, but also to be, like, behind him and to be him. And it's like that weird again, psychosexual line of like, how are you straddling both of these things at once? Of like, wanting to be this person, but also to embody them as they experience whatever pleasure Henry is experiencing at the Glory Hole.

Joe (27:12)

Pleasure at the Glory Hole. Great band name. I want to read this, if I may. This comment that I saw on Reddit that I really loved from about the shower scene this person wrote. I can sense when my 7 pound cat walks into the room without even seeing her. You mean to tell me Henry couldn't sense a grown man with a dark, ominous homosexual aura? Which I just like, really love that description.

Jodie Walker (27:36)

Like a sprinkly.

Rob Mahoney (27:39)

The paper is not going to be subtle.

Joe (27:42)

We also get this on the point of like, sort of Whitney psychology. Here we get this moment with Jonah on the phone, right, where Jonah says, get a lawyer or kill yourself, whatever's cheaper. Which is not quite, sorry, my products are the cleaners, along with my hoodie and my fuck you flip flops, you pretentious douchebag. But it'll do for a slice. And what Max Minghella said, told Katie Baker, is that he played that moment as, like, at an actual deep, kind of deep wound for Whitney. And this is what he said. He said Whitney's relationship with Jonah has a lot more tenderness in it than maybe I even intended. This idea that, like, Max Minghella has been so struggling a bit with Whitney as, like an unknowable, slippery character. Where is his actual humanity? Where is his actual vulnerability? Because even if you're playing a sociopath, you need to have some sort of, like, psychological, like, access to that character. And so the fact that he drilled down on this Jonah exchange I thought was really interesting, especially given what we saw Whitney do to Jonah at the beginning of this season. But the idea that, like, this is someone who's known him longest saw him not at his origin origin, but closer to his origin story. And so the people that know you can cut you the deepest sort of. I thought that was like an interesting play from this actor.

Rob Mahoney (28:57)

Well, especially in that moment where we find Whitney, where, yeah, he's making calls to Harper to weirdly, menacingly sing, gloat, threaten, whatever he's doing. But the call to Jonah felt like, who else do I have left to call? Like, who do I have who will take this call that will not see me entirely as this construction that I have put up, even if it means that Jonah is going to tear me down in this instance. And certainly we know Whitney deserves it. But he is starved for intimacy. I mean, so, so starved that he's watching just like, you know, Henry in the shower, that he's looking for it at every opportunity he can get it. And that the idea that Jonah is the person who's like, maybe most capable of offering it is fucking sad and tragic in its own way.

Jodie Walker (29:37)

Actively in a strip club, I'm sure.

Rob Mahoney (29:39)

When he calls you say you pretending that's not.

Joe (29:42)

Can you be passively? Can you be passively in a strip club, Jody? Is that possible?

Rob Mahoney (29:47)

NBA players will tell you, yes, indeed you can.

Joe (29:50)

All right, this is a moment on this podcast where I believe Jody and I as the as and Harper of this poc that's not our counterparts, but let's just pretend get to take a. I think a slight victory lap on Rob Mahoney as the Asan Harper love story seems to be emerging in this episode. Jodi, how do you feel about it?

Jodie Walker (30:11)

Listen, did Harper say to Yaz, you are devoid of empathy. You only know how to act like you have it when you want something? Yes. Is that true? Yes. Is to be known to be loved? Yes. They're in love. It's coming around. What we know is that it's coming. And I mean, yeah, I think Harper was there as an act of protection. I think it's interesting when she says it's not personal and Yasmin says, who has ever said that when it's not true? But I do think for Harper, it's not personal. The situation they're in has happened because she had personal access and did use Yaz in many ways to get there. I don't think that she did it intentionally to harm Yaz. If these two can get ever get on the level that they're not intentionally harming each other, but they're also not intentionally not harming each other. And could that be a form of love? I think they might just make it unstoppable.

Rob Mahoney (31:07)

That really is the sweet spot.

Joe (31:09)

I.

Rob Mahoney (31:09)

Look, I have to admit, again, I just clearly don't have a firm enough grasp on female friendship. And I apologize to you both for not getting the nuances of two people trying to subtly tear each other down while also propping themselves up.

Joe (31:20)

We got a couple emails about this from listeners about the true love story of the show being between Yaz and Harper. I really like this one from Meg, who wrote they are the yin and Yang masculine Harper and feminine Y. They both want to operate in a male dominated society and be doms themselves, but go about it in opposite ways. Validation, domination and good outfits. They are a match made in heaven. The opening conversation between them of this episode, the digs the. Why do you always find it a. Find a way to pick apart my stability. We're poetry. The bars could be straight from another HBO series, but it's not the one you'd expect. It's hacks Harper quote, it's not personal. Is Deborah Vance, whereas Yaz is Ava. Always trying to keep up in a toxic quote friendship.

Rob Mahoney (32:03)

Yin and Yaz was right there. Like we don't have to yang it. I don't think.

Joe (32:06)

Listen, Rob, just because you were wrong about this doesn't mean you need to pick apart our listener email.

Jodie Walker (32:11)

You're not gonna scrape it back this way. I love the mentioning of the clothes because I really love the. The basically the opening scene of the episode when Harper comes out of the elevator and they both look. They're in slacks, each kind of a. You know, Harper's in a cooler pant. Yasmin is in like a really just sort of like official slack. A woman slack. They look like adults. They look like they're not wearing costumes anymore. They almost look like their actor selves. You could imagine people wearing these clothes and you think back to season one and how they were sort of cosplaying being, you know, business women in finance and how far they've come, but also not come very far at all in many ways. But to. To see them that. I loved that. That just sort of like meeting of the minds so that they could sit down and tear each other to shreds.

Joe (33:06)

Our listener BJ also wrote something similar said about the two of them saying, working for the man and subverting and subverting him as opposed to being the man with or without shoulder pads. And I just thought that that was just like really interesting just watching these two on their parallel but occasionally crisscrossing path after power, but also just sort of autonomy, the way in which they're both fleeing or running towards these damaged relationships with their parents and, and. And what that means to define themselves on the other side of it. And the fact that if this is Eric's last episode, Jodi shared with us an America's Top Model meme of like the. The promo photo from. I think it was season two. Yeah, season two. Where it's like Yaz and Harper and then all these men behind them and now they are all Gone. Rishi gone. Theoretically, Eric gone, Rob gone. Gus gone, et cetera, et cetera. And it's just like. And then there were two. And it's Harper and Yaz, and.

Jodie Walker (34:07)

And.

Joe (34:07)

And where do we go from here?

Jodie Walker (34:08)

There is one sociopath left in front.

Joe (34:13)

You mentioned the five pieces of the conference. I want to talk about the conference, but Ken Lung compared it to a sheath. He says it makes me think of those. You know, those she's. That you put a knife in, and then when you pull it out, the knife gets sharp. Mahalia called it armor. Like, this is. This is what this outfit is at the confere. Uh, Rob, what did you think of. Of Harper's presentation?

Rob Mahoney (34:32)

I was a little mixed on this, I think. I think I always have a hard time with these sorts of presentations in shows or, like, big moments where you have to stand up and do a performance. Or it's like, what exactly am I supposed to take away from this? And what is the tonality in the room? Because to me, this would seem like. As a purely opportunistic thing for anyone who's sitting there. It's like how for. For one, the idea that Harper Stern walks into this room and apparently needs no introduction. How famous is Harper?

Jodie Walker (35:01)

That felt like some easy writing to me, because I was like, no, no meaning, like, maybe. I guess I mean lazy writing. Like, she does need an introduction, actually, because she's been up to some stuff lately. Like, her. Her reputation is not good right now. Her shorts are not working. Like, she had to reshuffle her deck. She's moved around a lot. I. I could see why she would be there as a mover and a shaker, but I feel like she does need an introduction.

Rob Mahoney (35:26)

I think so too.

Joe (35:28)

Well, she was in. She was in Forbes 30 under 30, right?

Rob Mahoney (35:30)

Like, true.

Joe (35:30)

That's. And I guess that was her introduction.

Jodie Walker (35:32)

Criminal pipeline, these circles.

Joe (35:35)

In terms of, like, would this actually happen? According to the Bloomberg recap, this is a very common practice among short sellers, too. There is, like, one. Jim Chanos is a regular on the conference circuit, like, using these conference platforms to. To get their positions out there. Because it is about narrative, right? It's about causing everyone to doubt something. And so these are. This is a platform in which you can do that.

Rob Mahoney (35:59)

Totally.

Joe (36:00)

We did get an email from our listener, Carly, who said, I find myself unable to sleep thinking about Harper's 10 quote tender too good to be true deck. This is an explosive deck with information I absolutely do not understand. However, what I do understand is that the deck with a Deck this insane. You gotta have some more visual flair. So, Jody, would you care to comment on the visuals that accompanied Harper's presentation here?

Jodie Walker (36:25)

I did notice that it was just a lot of words and bullet points, and I was like, well, the people in this room know these words, but I know there were a few photos she had. She had them holding the big check in Ghana.

Rob Mahoney (36:40)

She did.

Jodie Walker (36:40)

That photo was up there.

Rob Mahoney (36:42)

You know, not enough text on that one. That one might have needed more explanation.

Jodie Walker (36:45)

That was really the photo doing the work. I mean, I don't think decks are her specialty, nor are they mine.

Joe (36:50)

They're re. They're running, like, a really skeleton crew, so they don't have anyone that she can, like, outsource the. The font choice to.

Rob Mahoney (36:56)

All of this seems totally plau in terms of her getting up there and making that presentation. I guess I'm just wondering, like, why anyone in the room would choose to believe it. Like, why someone given Harper. And as we talk about Eric's motivations later in this episode, to express their skepticism for financial gain. Not saying they're wrong because they're clearly right about Tender in the end game, but, like, why is anyone taking note of that in a way where they would take her, like, just at face value?

Jodie Walker (37:20)

It just reminds me of when Henry got up, you know, in front of the crowd to sell Tinder, and it was again, sort of a like, if your heart is pure moment. Like, if you're. If you're really telling the truth this time, then people will believe you. And it's like when Henry was giving that speech, you knew there from the moment he started looking at a teleprompter, you knew there was gonna be a moment where he cut away and didn't look at the teleprompter anymore, and he just spoke from his heart. It's not exactly the same here with Harper. She's not speaking from her heart, but she is telling the truth.

Rob Mahoney (37:52)

It's true.

Jodie Walker (37:52)

And then it happens again with Eric, who's like, I'm gonna tell you the truth. Yes, I am just a money grubbing fund guy. That's. But in telling you that, I'm not telling you something else. I'm not saying that this is for the greater good. I'm not saying it's anything more than it is. It's a way for me to make money. It might be a way for you to make money, and you should. It's just sales.

Rob Mahoney (38:17)

Yeah.

Jodie Walker (38:18)

Why does anyone believe anything?

Joe (38:20)

I mean, I feel like we've seen Harper do this in more sort of chaotically edited, maniacally chewing gu like cokey behavior in previous seasons when at the very last minute she gets on a call with someone and she just convinces them to do exactly what she needs them to do to save the day. So, like, even if you're not convinced by the unimaginative deck that she put up here at. At the conference, this is a known power. Like the. The show has established that this is something that Harper can do is like, leave a story that people will buy into causing them to put their money where she wants them to put their money.

Jodie Walker (38:57)

It's interesting though, because often she's done that with a certain amount of panic and like a timeline. And I've always found this concept of Harper being a salesperson interesting. I think you see that in Eric. You see the ways that he is charming in a room. Harper's not your classic kind of charming. You know, she can be convincing, but she is not charismatic necessarily. And then I think that what I enjoyed watching in this deck presentation was the ways that she's grown in that way. And I thought it was a really good performance by Mahala where it wasn't overly done. It still seemed like she was reading her cards. It still seemed like it was somewhat rehearsed. Like, it did not seem perfect, but it did seem like Harper, after years of doing this and being someone who's gotten in front of rooms now, I mean, Eric brings it up, like, don't beef it like you did the last time years ago. And it is kind of like, yeah, I haven't seen her do a lot of like, very.

Joe (39:59)

She's like, that was a decade ago, my guy. Like, I'm alive. I got it.

Jodie Walker (40:05)

And she did.

Joe (40:06)

She, she.

Jodie Walker (40:07)

She did have it. So it was, it was interesting to see her grow in that way, especially now that she is the sole head.

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Rob Mahoney (41:11)

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Jodie Walker (41:39)

Ed of her firm.

Rob Mahoney (41:41)

Yeah, what could go wrong?

Joe (41:43)

The rest of what I have here in my notes is Eric centric. Is there anything else you guys want to make sure we talk about in terms of. Yes, Harper, Henry. Whitney.

Rob Mahoney (41:53)

Yeah. Can we circle back to the Whitney, Henry stuff for a second?

Joe (41:56)

Of course.

Rob Mahoney (41:57)

I think we kind of talk through what we think is what Whitney is after, right? Like some semblance of wanting Henry, wanting to be Henry, all that. Why do we think Henry is so receptive to Whitney? Kind of creeping on him, wanting to be around him, wanting to be in his orbit. Like, is it just vanity? Is it intimacy? Is it flattery? Like, what do you, what do you guys think is in it for Henry at this point?

Joe (42:21)

To me, it comes back to the moment that Jodie did a really good job of underlining before the presentation, when Whitney is literally looming over Henry but making him feel big, not small. Right. And the way that Yaz in her shoes at the party was looming over him, and he just felt so minuscule compared to her. And so as much as she's like, I love you, I'm on our, on your team. This is our family. There are ways in which she is running him because he cannot be trusted. And so I don't, I don't begrudge her trying to run him, but the way in which she's running him is making him feel small, insignificant, all this sort of stuff like that. And Whitney is diabolical enough to know that he needs to flatter and inflate Henry. That's my take on it. What do you think, Jodi?

Jodie Walker (43:12)

Well, and I think that, and I felt that in the moment you're referencing back to where he hovers over him in the room. I felt it in this episode that what Whitney needs from Henry is precisely what Henry has. And it's kind of all that he has. And this is a person who is very insecure about his capabilities, about what he offers to the world. And for Whitney, all he wants is what Henry innately offers, which is his place in the world, which is his class, which is his, you know, his breeding. Yasmin wants much more than that. And I really, I assume this language, this parallel language was intentional. But another moment where Whitney is.

Joe (43:58)

Classic.

Jodie Walker (43:58)

Arm move, sort of lording over. Not lording, but just physically over Henry at the glory hole. And what does he say to him? You're worth everything. And it reminded me of the proposed. The sort of marriage agreement between Henry and Yaz where she says, henry, I deserve everything.

Joe (44:21)

Right.

Jodie Walker (44:21)

And the difference in those, in those pronouns and what these two people are offering him, how they're making him feel. I think you do see how Whitney is compelling to him for, like, just the worst reasons, but then also to me, you know, Rob, you pointed out your most talented Mr. Ripley moment. I think mine was so.

Rob Mahoney (44:46)

Well, to be fair, not my moment. That was their moment.

Jodie Walker (44:49)

And you love them and you love. And you're rooting for those two. Crazy. And you love a classic male friendship. I really root for those.

Joe (44:57)

You're like, male friendship is worth rooting for.

Rob Mahoney (44:59)

This is why I believe I wanted you to reflect back male friendship to me.

Jodie Walker (45:05)

When they are, you know, sitting by the water and Henrique almost reveals that he knows a little something, he does not seem to do it with intention. I think the way he says, I have a lot of middle class friends is with intention. But the way that he's like, I don't know if that's true about your mother. Everything you say sounds like it comes from a sad book. And Whitney looks really taken aback by that. But Henry doesn't. And it feels very Ripley esque in that wit. Like Henry doesn't know he's signing his own death certificate. He doesn't. He doesn't know that by knowing Whitney, by discovering something about him, he has done the wrong thing.

Rob Mahoney (45:46)

You're telling me that post glory hole nut clarity comes at a cost.

Jodie Walker (45:50)

Just might. Still gotta keep that wall up. Literally.

Joe (45:55)

All right, are we ready to talk about Eric?

Rob Mahoney (45:57)

Please.

Joe (45:58)

Here's something that Reddit figured out last week, which is that the young woman that Eric has his assignation with, just making it as delicate as I can in the previous episode, that that gets him, you know, paralyzes him. This information, this episode is likely the little cousin that Haley is talking about we see that actress in episode one of this season when Haley's in, like, out drinking with friends, this young woman is right there with her. The math off the passport that Eric looks at is 14. The, you know, the fact that this girl is drinking in the bar with Haley, does that mean she's actually 16, which is legal drinking age, or just has a fake ID or, you know, etc. Etc. Who knows? Honestly, at the end of the day, as far as the shadowy Russian cabal are concerned, it doesn't seem to matter whether or not this, you know, and 16 is still underage and disgusting. And it's all disgusting. But, like, as we identified at the time, we were like, the dynamics here are so off. The fact that he went from his wife and his daughter sleeping in the hotel room directly to, like, you know, make me feel big, like, sort of with this girl was already really skeeving us out. This added layer of, like, is she or is she not underage? Immaterial to what happens next? Eric certainly seems surprised by it. Is that your interpretation, or do you feel like he's just surprised? Like, do you think that Eric knew she was underage or might have been underage, or is your interpretation of his reaction. Oh, fuck, someone has entrapped me. What do you think, Jody?

Jodie Walker (47:52)

I thought he seemed horrified. I do not. I do not agree. I think that he thought.

Joe (47:55)

I agree.

Jodie Walker (47:56)

That that young woman was underage while knowing that she seemed very young. And they. They also seemed to have, before they met up in that room, have been in touch, you know, like, she. There had been, you know, some sort of initial contact. I think the way that the. The camera, you know, slides over to the photo of the passport to reveal the year would suggest that was not something he was expecting.

Rob Mahoney (48:24)

He also didn't ask too many questions, I don't think. I think it's one of those things where, like, look, regardless of what he thought her age was, she looks very young.

Joe (48:32)

Right.

Rob Mahoney (48:32)

And I think that's part of what was so distressing about it in the first place is this idea of, like, again, leaving his daughter, as you said, Jo, asleep in the room, to go consort with somebody who's, like, at minimum, looks a similar age to his daughter is deeply upsetting for a variety of reasons. And then, so in this moment, yes, he's being caught in an incredibly compromising position. He's, I'm sure, freaked out, as the two of you are saying, by this revelation of this woman's age. And he's. I mean, I think he's sorting through the repercussions for him with his family, which is already quite fragile, and his children, who barely like even when they do want to acknowledge their love, he can't look up from his phone in this moment to acknowledge his daughter acknowledging.

Jodie Walker (49:12)

Her love for nothing. He is abandoning his daughter again in order to deal with the repercussions of his own behavior.

Rob Mahoney (49:19)

Yeah, it's look, it's not ideal for anything. And so there's like the personal, there's the financial, there's everything it means for him and Harper and their relationship. I think it's just like a wave of shit that's hitting Eric in this moment in terms of being like, facing the consequences of his own actions once again.

Joe (49:34)

In that 2023 New Yorker article about the wirecart investigation, this is cited by Katie Baker in a recap. There was a traitor involved in the scandal. Nick Gold, who picked up, quote, the hottest girl you've ever seen when he was out in New York City one night only later to receive blackmail footage of their dalliance in his email. Quote, the worst part was that I had my socks all the way up, gold told the New Yorker. You don't want to be seen with white socks up at my age. So that's just like a Once again.

Jodie Walker (50:01)

Great is not to do it.

Joe (50:04)

Don't do it.

Jodie Walker (50:05)

Take them off.

Joe (50:06)

Here's what Ken Lung said. I think this is in an Indiewire piece where they talk to the creators and to Ken about the character. He Ken is just like out here, like citing Samuel Johnson and Arthur Miller and all this stuff about his character, right? But quote, he quote, he who makes a beast of himself gets rid of the pain of being a man is a quote that he brought about Eric. He who makes a beast of himself gets rid of the pain of being a man. And I think something that Ken said about coming back this season, he was like, I sort of feel like we arced out my character last season. So what is there left to do with Eric this season? And something that he and the creators talked about is like, what can we do that is interesting with Eric as it relates to Harper and as it relates to the rest of the story we need to tell, like, especially if this is his last episode, they're like, we're bringing you back not for the full season, but to really sort of haunt a hotel room in a bathrobe and then to sort of leave. Also something that he said in both this Indiewire piece and a Vulture piece is basically he filmed a ton more for this season with his daughter, the actress who plays his daughter. And also in the Vulture piece they release reveal that there was a scene with the ghost of Adler, the. The colleague and friend that he screwed over last season who died at the end of last season that they had another ghost. Another ghost.

Rob Mahoney (51:34)

I know ghost partner Chris.

Joe (51:36)

Chris Ryan was. Chris Ryan was talking to me and I was like, maybe there's like a one ghost per season cap that we do on industry. Maybe that's why they cut it.

Rob Mahoney (51:43)

Have gone for zero personally but teach.

Joe (51:45)

Their own ton of Eric stuff this scene season essentially and, and maybe most crucially for our purposes here, right before we see him walking down that road forever, which we'll. We'll talk about a little bit. He has a scene where his daughter shows up with a nose ring which reminds him of Harper. And he flips out at her and yells at her about having the nose ring and his wife is in that scene and he just like yells at everyone and then he's like, I need to go get cigarettes. So that's what we like because like he's walking out the road these end of the episode and it's very disorienting because you're like, where is this, like what is this tree lined street? And what is he doing? But I guess it's like him walking down the street that's outside that house that we've seen him in in previous seasons here in the uk. So that's what that road is. But so he's leaving to get cigarettes. The classic like and then dad never came back sort of move. But I don't know. Jodi, what do you make of all of that that that was shot and cut. Did we need it? Do you miss it? How do you feel about it?

Jodie Walker (52:46)

I don't think that we needed the, the scene of him at home. And I was a little bit like, where is he? But I think I registered that he was probably back in the, you know, suburban safety of where he used to live and not wherever he was off where he was as a bachelor before he. I mean I, I hope his wife doesn't take him back but. But besides that, I, yeah, I found the scene with Harper heartbreaking. I thought that Ken's performance with his breaking voice was so good and I loved those final lines where he says, I don't want you to remember me that way. And she signs the documents and says I will always remember you this way. And it was heartbreaking in the moment, but my sappy self who also holds onto hope for These two is that memories can change and morph. And she says it with disgust. In this moment, I will always remember you this way. And you know what. What you're doing to me right now. But later, she might remember him this way and see it differently. It's the kind of grace that you can have for your parents once you become an adult.

Rob Mahoney (53:59)

Yes. See, even as you say that, like everything you said about the passage of time, Jodi, I find to be very true. I think I just have, like, a much more pessimistic view of Harper as a character and as a person that she'll never grow. Well, I mean, she's shown us she will grow in very, very small and very particular and ultimately kind of professional ways, but maybe not in any personal ones. And so there is a part of me in that moment that, as she's saying, I will always remember you this way. It's like, I wonder how much of that is a miracle, maybe not a misread by Eric. And maybe that's what makes it so painful for him, because he's making this choice to step away from the company, to step away from Harper, the thing that he has professed to kind of want more than anything else, almost, which is this relationship with her. But to Harper, him being. I'm gonna say this in terms that I think she would put it. Not that I would put it, being a coward in this moment and stepping away from the company and away from their partnership and abandoning her, and I'm sure tapping into everything she feels in terms of a lot of relationships in her life, as opposed to being whatever you would classify a person who is subject to the video being released of him and this underage girl. I think there's a part of Harper that would almost respect the cowardice less. Does that make sense?

Joe (55:11)

Well, first of all, I think you and I have different, clearly, for sure, and that's okay. But, like, I think that. I think it will depend on whether or not the full information is ever revealed to her. If she finds out, sort of like, why he left, surely that would change her point of view. The fact that he fired her in a previous season to sort of save her from his point of view. Like, he got her out of pure point because he thought that was what was best for her. And then he does this here because he thinks it's what is best for her, because he can't save himself. There's no way to save himself at this point. I. I don't know about you guys, but I was on tenterhooks for the. In the CNN appearance, I was like, is he about to, you know, clearly the blackmail directive is go on cnn or, you know, like, is go on there and take everything back and back down and, you know, change your position and all this sort of stuff like that. And I was like, is he gonna do that to her? Is she gonna have to watch him on television when he has said, I'll do it, I'll do this. You stay home, I'll do it. I was so nervous about that. And so the fact that he held fast. Ken described it as his quote, his last battle, where all his old, quote, weaponry comes out. And also the. In the writers room, they compared it to. They called it Eric's quote, 8 mile scene. A reference to Eminem's Be Rabbit winning the climactic rap battle by designing his opponent with the verse. I know everything he's about to say against me. I am white. I am a fudgeing bum. I do live in a trailer with my mom like that. This was Eric just going out there and saying, like, fuck you, I'm gonna do this. While also then protecting Harper on his way out the door. Is Eric a character to be admired? No. And I don't think anyone on the show thinks so, and I don't think Ken Leung thinks so. But the way that they talk about this moment, this idea, this is where Arthur Miller comes in. This idea of the tragic, the tragic character is a character who understands themselves too late. And the fact that Eric, even inside of this season, he was like kind of aspiring to change, to be a better dad, to connect with Harper. And something that the writers on the show said is like, that of course means he's set up for the biggest fall. The fact that he's actually like thinking maybe self deluding, but like. And definitely self deluding in many ways, but sort of like taking a swing at being a better guy. And that is just an absolute recipe for disaster inside of the world that industry is presenting for us here. But I just, I do think there's a potential future to circle back to the beginning of my point. I do think there is a potential future for Harper to understand what Eric does here, but I think would require her to know all of the information. And I don't know whether or not that will actually ever come out. If there's a great sort of like Whitney files leak or not. I don't know. What do you think, Jody?

Jodie Walker (58:16)

I assume that at some point she would be able to see it as protection, but I think that Eric not only understands himself too late, he also understands Harper too late or not ever, in that she does not want his protection, she wants his partnership and, and really always has. And so he does the best thing he can do, which is not betray her, which is kind of his other choice. And I agree, when he went on cnn, I was like, we got another one coming. These two have been betraying each other back and forth. And this is. This season is kind of the first time we've seen them really commit to what they can be together. And it is ruined by, you know, his human behavior. And he sees it as protection. And if she is able, ever able in her life to see that protection as good instead of as belittling or frustrating, then that could work, but probably not. On to Yaz.

Rob Mahoney (59:20)

Maybe it is on to Yaz. I think one reason that CNN scene just, like, drops like a bomb to is, yes. You have all the Eric Harper stuff playing in the background. And I was with you, Joe. Like, the tension in that moment of, like, what is Eric going to do when cornered in this particular way? We know him to be really resourceful, really ferocious when he needs to be, but, like, also someone who kind of knows when to fold the hand, like, at least even at his own personal cost. In some points in previous seasons, I thought playing him opposite Whitney and kind of putting his foot down and like, refusing to be leveraged in the way that Whitney has clearly been leveraged. Right. Like, he is guilty of a great many things, as you said, a lot of which are horrible, but he's just, like, not willing to participate in this kind of blackmail, extortion, machine in a way that I think one of my larger questions about Whitney all season has been like, yes, he's doing all of this. Yes, he's manipulating, he's committing fraud, he's doing all this. But to what end? Like, what does he ultimately hope to gain? Is it just, like, move things around long enough that he can become rich and powerful and important in the way that he hopes to. I thought some of what this episode illuminated about Whitney was, like, there kind of is not a lot of end game for someone like him. And it makes more sense what he's been doing when you consider him as an asset who's been moved around the board by, you know, Russian influence as opposed to a con man who's making all these calculated decisions for himself. And Eric just saying, like, absolutely not. Like, I'm going to. I'm going to go off into the sunset and accept whatever comeuppance I have. As opposed to being a part of all this is, yes, it does not make him a good person, but it definitely makes him distinctly a different kind of one than whatever Whitney is.

Jodie Walker (60:56)

Well, what was the quote about the beast? When you remove what the pain of.

Joe (61:02)

A man, he who makes a beast of himself gets rid of the pain of being a man. And there's also what Conrad K. Said about that was we wanted to make good on that quote, which is quote, what is he at his most beastly, indulging in that really vicious side of his id. So that's you. Let the ID out. Kill. Kill the man. Let the ID be born. Jodi, what do you make of of Eric calling Harper harpoon instead of harpsichord inside of this episode?

Jodie Walker (61:30)

I was stunned. I assumed that he did it because it is a much more aggressive form of nickname than a twinkly little harpsichord. And she had just, you know, gone out and slayed the dragon, presumably. But I was sad that we won't get more of it.

Joe (61:46)

Is this a movement from an instrument to be played to a weapon, A weapon to be wielded or like a self launching harpoon or something like that? I don't know.

Jodie Walker (62:00)

I think it's just dad stuff.

Joe (62:02)

Dad stuff. Hashtag dad stuff. Classic dad stuff. Another thing that Mickey and Conrad said about Eric's exit here is they don't want people at home to be comparing it to Gus's exit or Rob's exit. This moment of these characters, it's like those characters escaped before the worst possible thing could happen to them and they went off to Silicon Valley land aplenty, I guess, and just sort of are making their own way and have escaped the machine. That's not. This is not a brighter future for Eric. This is a defeat. I don't think that we interpreted it that way, but like, I think they're like we've sent characters off in very specific ways and this is not the same as that. This is some. We want to do something different here. Rob, what do you think about that?

Rob Mahoney (62:47)

I think the only silver lining to him lasting this long in the game, coming back to it from the golf course, is what he expresses to Harper and this idea that he has finally found room in himself to be proud for someone other than him. And so it's like that he can go off into the sunset with, but there's nothing on the other side of it. Like, this is the end of Eric's story in a lot of ways. And as far as him arcing out, it makes a ton of sense. Like he is an accessory to Harper's framing of this part of the story in so many ways. Narratively, this season, there's not a lot of room for that character to go. There's not a lot for him to do other than to be extorted. And so this feels, sadly, like a natural endpoint. And with that, I think the endpoint of a certain version of industry. Like, clearly this is a show that could continue on as Yaz and Harper just, like, spiral around each other into the abyss. But without Eric as being a counterbalancing part of it, that show just looks and feels very different.

Jodie Walker (63:38)

Yeah, I don't know what the show looks like without Eric. I do find him very stabilizing and foundational. I don't know if like, like Jesse Bloom coming back takes, you know, some of that place, but in thinking about comparing it to the Gus and Rob exits, I, I. Before we log off, I was wanting to circle back to the moment on the phone when Harper brings back up how chilled she was by Whitney talking about funerals in such a practical way, because that was something we talked about on the pod of kind of not knowing how she received that. And I think I was dead ass wrong in how I thought she received it. Of course, we don't know precisely how she received it, but she is reciting it back this way to say that she got a chill to hear him talk about them so practically. And she says funerals have a function. It's for ritualistic grieving. It's a human need to deal with that shit. Of course, the immediate reveal thereafter is that she did not go to her mother's funeral and just perhaps not have that human need to deal with that shit, but she does. But when I think about these characters who have exited, it does feel like Robb and Gus kind of got these funerals. They got these exits. We grieved them. The characters grieved them in a, you know, ritualistic and fundamental way. And the way that Eric is exiting.

Joe (65:04)

Is.

Jodie Walker (65:06)

Sudden, and it's. It's like going missing instead of dying.

Joe (65:09)

You know, you.

Jodie Walker (65:10)

You do you wonder what you. And if you've really lost it. And I think that that will be a wound for Harper and, you know, I mean, interestingly, yeah, for the show. And it's a wound they've created, so I wonder how they'll tend to it. But it is startling to think about.

Rob Mahoney (65:30)

Well, even as he declares on his exit to kind of like twin the funeral conversation, they're like, he doesn't want a Funeral for his exit. He doesn't want any of the pomp and circumstance.

Joe (65:39)

I was looking for a visual comp for this long walk he takes at the end of the episode because something that the creators have been doing all season is sort of referencing classic film scenarios or music. Do you guys have any thoughts on this?

Rob Mahoney (65:56)

The COVID of Rain man was the first thing that came to mind for me. Although it's a solo journey in this case, but the long walk on the tree lined street.

Joe (66:04)

Can I tell you, Rob, that I texted the COVID of Rain man to cr. CR texted me back the right in for the right answer. But I definitely texted that is the answer we would have got. Remember at the end of. Of Pluribus. Oh, no, no severance. And we were like, what does this remind people of? And then everyone asked Chat GPT and sent us the wrong answer. Adjustment Bureau, I believe was the answer that ChatGPT provided. Provided. I sent the Rain man thing to Chris. Chris sent me. He was like, wait a second. And then Chris sent me back the right answer, which is. Is the final shot of the Third Man, 1949 film noir classic where there is a. So Eric's walk is. It's 54 seconds of Ken Long walking while Both Sides now plays. That's what we get at the end of this episode. And I love the way he's, you know, he's walking down the exact middle of the road. And Ken Long has talked about how they did that take over and over again. They just made him walk forever and then do it again and do it again. I love the way he's framed inside of the closing credit. So like there's that incredible frame where it's like his credit is, you know, is transposed over him. But also as the sort of credit split in classic credit style, he's like in the middle of the words and it's just still just Eric walking, which I think looks amazing. At the end of the Third man, there is a very famous. Like the final shot is a long walk of a woman walking for like a full minute towards camera, towards Joseph Cotten's character. And then she just walks right past him. And it's a very. It was a very contentious ending at the time. The director really fought for it. I believe Orson Welles fought for it. And. And all the studios at the time were like, hey, can't the guy get the girl? Like, shouldn't we have a happy ending here at the end of the Third Man? And they're like, that's not the story. We're trying to tell.

Rob Mahoney (67:46)

Well, the problem here is Eric did get the girl. That's why we got into this mess. He's got to walk. That's what I'm saying.

Joe (67:54)

But like this idea of. Yeah, like the, the long, lonely walk, the desolate ending, the making us as an audience sit in the uncomfortable reality of it. All of that I haven't heard, I haven't seen. The. The creators cite that as a direct inspo, but I would never doubt Chris Ryan on this front. And I think he's right about it. Ken Lynn's next project, he's doing a peacock show called Super Fakes with Lucy Liu, which quote, follows a small time Chinatown luxury counterfeit dealer who enters a dangerous black market underworld to fund a life of suburban respectability for her family. So Lucy Liu is the star and he stars as her husband. But the creators of this show, in interviews are saying never say never about Eric coming back. They don't want to, like, completely close the door on that. I. I kind of like this as an ending for him. I don't know that a peacock show is where I want Ken to go next. But listen, I. I would never begrudge someone getting their. Their paycheck.

Jodie Walker (69:09)

Some good work over there, Joe.

Joe (69:11)

They are. Are.

Jodie Walker (69:11)

I know you watch the Traitors, you.

Joe (69:14)

Know, I'm obsessed with the traitors. Absolutely. But like peacock shows, I feel like more often than not, their scripted stuff can feel like it doesn't exist. Like, does ponies exist as a show? I'm not sure. I just want him to continue to be able to work on a show that people are going to, like, watch and admire because I just think he's. He was so tremendous on the show, has been amazing, like, his entire career, and I just want him to continue to have that going forward.

Rob Mahoney (69:43)

So this is such a phenomenal role for him too. And I think what makes it hard, the idea of bringing him back in some subsequent episode is not just that we would lose this incredible goodbye we got here, it's that Eric as a character and the powerhouse that Kinlung puts into him is such, like, it rocks the show off its axis when he shows up on screen. And so the idea that you're just gonna have him for like a one off, I think is really hard to, like, calibrate. Like, how much are you gonna have him in the episode? How much can he disrupt and then just disappear again? Like, he's. He's not an easy force to just like, drop into the episode because he's honestly, like, so compelling. On screen in this show.

Jodie Walker (70:21)

Well, and with Harper as our, you know, sort of fundamental anchor, these two can't be acquaintances. They can't. You know, they can't.

Joe (70:28)

They'll never be friends, pass through town.

Jodie Walker (70:30)

And see each other. They. It is all in or all out.

Joe (70:34)

Right.

Jodie Walker (70:35)

And he took himself out of the equation.

Rob Mahoney (70:38)

We get a brief Jennifer Bevan appearance in this episode in, like, a real pink power suit. Is that the power suit before the fall or before the rise? It seems like she is positioned for something. She's been kind of, like, on the climb all season. But her growing prominence as we're also dealing with an increasingly expansive Russian kompromat plot makes me, like, a little nervous about the fate of that character and what she actually is or would be involved in. Is that.

Joe (71:04)

That.

Rob Mahoney (71:04)

Is that crazy to say?

Jodie Walker (71:05)

I mean, maybe she is what they're ultimately trying to get at. I think that is the. I think that's what I found a little challenging about the Russian cabal episode. It is kind of, what are we suggesting here? Like, is this all some longer game towards something else? And, God, when are we going to find it out? You know, I. I found that concept of, like, this continuing to grow larger and larger a little overwhelming for my itty bitty little show industry. However, I have all the faith that they could pull it off. But, yes, if like, this is entering into manipulating foreign governments, we'll see. I could not speak to the suit.

Rob Mahoney (71:47)

That's fair. I do think that's a fair concern about the show, though. Like, within this episode, I found the reveal of who Whitney has been all along and Ferdinand, and, like, all this to be, like, really compelling. Like, a really nice twist that I didn't see coming and really disoriented me in a pleasant way. But it does create that kind of plot creep that you're alluding to, Jodie, where it's like, how do we. If this is the plot of season four, for season five, it would be really difficult to then just like, oh, well, let's just go back to our little, like, personal traumas and on the finance floor, you know, like, it's hard to put that back in the box.

Joe (72:19)

Well, that's already dead, though. Like, that died at the end of last year season. Right. Like, we. We, like, collapsed pure point. And so we already signaled that we're on to, like, a different kind of show. And I've been wondering, like I mentioned at the beginning of the season, we get, like, a small glimpse of the actor Edward Holcroft. Like, Edward Holcroft on the, on the floor, a politician. And I'm like, how, like. And we haven't seen him again. And so I don't know if they're like seating him for next season or something like that, but like that. That's too big of an actor to just be like randomly here as a minister inside of this or whatever his role is. Sorry, politician inside of this season. So, like, are, you know, is this the sort of like money fintech? Are we. Are we heading towards something like the Wire where like this is the fintech season and next season is. Is the like in. In earnest politics season or something like that?

Jodie Walker (73:12)

Right. So I think that's like, what kind of overwhelms me is. And for no reason, I'm just giving myself anxiety. Is that something that we love about industry and we've talked about a lot is that it burns through plot complex, you know, and the idea of burning through plot when the stakes are much higher, the story is much bigger. It's like, okay, well, they're going to be in like Fast and Furious territory soon.

Joe (73:36)

We're going to pull.

Jodie Walker (73:38)

They're going to be pulling a vault over a bridge, going to space. If, if the plot rate is as fast, when the stakes are even are so high, I would Espionage and all.

Joe (73:48)

I would be curious if, like, if, if, you know, and something that, that Mickey and Conrad have said, I believe in interviews is like, they're like, well, we never said which industry. Right, Right. So it's like we thought industry was pure point was finance, but now they're like, but also fintech, but also politics. Like it's all.

Rob Mahoney (74:06)

But also space mining, you know, but also space.

Jodie Walker (74:09)

But like, it's always space.

Joe (74:11)

If the fifth season is a final season, which no one has said it is, and no one has even said that they're definitely doing a fifth season. But if the fifth season is. Which feels like a nice, like sort of round number for this kind of HBO show these days. And that is like sort of their, like biggest halls of power season. I can see them nailing that. But I, I agree with you, Jodi. I don't know where we go from there. Right. Like, if, if we're going to, you know, MI5 or wherever we're fricking going in season five. I don't, I don't know. Except for space, where we go from there.

Jodie Walker (74:45)

So I want Jesse Bloom back, I think is where I land in terms of growing this world and already having a character who exists, who is like another, you know, is like a musk, like character. I want, I think I want. I think I want him back.

Joe (75:01)

Jade Duplass, I'm sure would love to hear it. Needle drop corner. Really quickly, 18 minutes into this episode is when the industry title card drops. Like a real flex to do it that. That late in the episode, it drops to Silence by delirium featuring Sarah McLachlan. We got a. We got an email from Ethan. Ethan was like, you know, with love and respect to all of your needle drop corners that you've been doing, you've been really neglecting, like, the rave classics that this season has been giving us. And he was like, delirium featuring Sarah McLachlan. Is this, this track Silence is like, like an old timer. A really. You had to be there. But like that. This was like an iconic rave trap. Rave track drop. They never used rave in Mad Men, so I don't know how to relate to it. But I'll tell you what they did use in Mad Men, which is Both Sides now by Judy Collins, which plays over Eric's exit.

Jodie Walker (75:57)

Everybody's got a blind spot.

Joe (75:59)

Very famously, at the end of. I believe it's season six of Mad Men, when Don Draper takes Sally and Bobby and Jean to go see the house where he grew up in. And he's like, you know, so if you want to look at young Kiernan Shipka and feel weird about yourself, you can go watch the season six finale of Mad Men, but where he sort of reveals a truth about himself, you know, in the same episode, I guess, where we see Whitney's Lithuanian passport or hear him breath Menace sing Whitney Houston, I don't know. But actually my number one sort of musical moment is Henry Muck singing Gilbert and Sullivan. HMS Pinafore. First of all, you would the shower. Yes, I would, Rob. It's also used on West Wing. Did you not feel your West Wing sort of like fandom rise when you heard it?

Rob Mahoney (76:50)

Unfortunately, very famously, this at least makes more sense in World. Aaron Sorkin assumes that everyone knows the encyclopedic book and lyrics of every Gilbert and Sullivan play. This seems like something Henry would know I liked.

Joe (77:02)

So shout out the Lamplighters, which is this theater company in San Francisco where I saw all of the Gilbert and Sullivan growing up. But like, I believe that Henry Mock was in a production of the HMS Pinafore at school, you know, where you're allowed to be a homeowner nowhere else. But this is. He's singing. He is an English man, for he himself said it. It's greatly to his credit that he is an English man. Like this is just an incredible like. Like so upper class bullshit. What does it mean to be an Englishman? What is it that this is? What. This is what Whitney was cosplaying as when he went to go visit Henry in. In episode two when he shows up in his like houndstooth and his like jodhpurs. Essentially like this is like. And Henry's just like, I'm born to it, baby. And you can't have just is I.

Jodie Walker (77:52)

Got it even when I'm in my birthday.

Joe (77:54)

But naked in the shower, he is an Englishman clothed it. Loved it. Just a few things to wrap up Chekhov's whiteboard. Kwabina is is asked to put some numbers on a whiteboard and here's. I have never felt more certain that they are going to win in some. Whatever the definition of win is than when I saw this whiteboard. Because I don't think you bring this whiteboard out if you're not gonna like put a bunch of zeros on it by the end of the season. Any. Any thoughts or feelings about that?

Rob Mahoney (78:23)

Whiteboards are for winners. I like this Pers.

Jodie Walker (78:27)

Another new email.

Joe (78:31)

Henry has a tender hoodie to go with his Lumi T shirt. How do you feel about all the merch that Henry is acquiring in his journey through life?

Rob Mahoney (78:39)

Reminds me of a lot of Bay Area residents. I know Joe. You know, it's just. You just accumulate this stuff. You don't even intend to. It's just all of a sudden, here's a coffee mug, here's a tote bag.

Jodie Walker (78:47)

He's such a nerd. The way his look shifts. Like from when he is wearing, you know, his fineries or a suit or whatever to when he is wearing a. A cotton knit polo or a hoodie. He does.

Joe (79:00)

He.

Jodie Walker (79:01)

He does. He looks so different. I mean, yeah, we pretty under discussed his full relapse in. In this episode. Yeah.

Joe (79:12)

Speaking of that, Jody, actually this, this last. This last point is for you and you alone.

Rob Mahoney (79:17)

Thanks.

Jodie Walker (79:18)

Stay out of it, Rob.

Joe (79:19)

Get out of it, Rob.

Rob Mahoney (79:20)

I'm just going to leave.

Joe (79:20)

This is Jody territory. I believe we learned at the beginning of the season that in the prenuptial agreement there is an infidelity clause. How do you feel about the fact that Henry has just barreled through the tape of the infidelity clause in the prenup? Is this something that Yaz can weaponize going forward?

Jodie Walker (79:40)

My mind did immediately go to the prenup because that's how I be thinking and I wondered If. Do we know for sure that the infidelity clause goes in both directions?

Joe (79:53)

Oh, do you think it's just for her? I thought the language was anyone, I think, but probably.

Rob Mahoney (80:01)

Well, there's also. Wasn't she threatening, like, based on his drug use? Right. There was some way to invoke. That was what she alluded to in a previous episode. And clearly he's like, way, way down the spiral on that one.

Joe (80:13)

Right.

Jodie Walker (80:13)

I think potentially, you know, we also haven't talked about that she and Hayley are sort of linking up in some partnership towards the end of the episode and that if she really wants out of this marriage, she has some things that she can weaponize and could weaponize in the reveal that. That Whitney has been recording all these things and using his assistance and recorded the threesome between Yaz and Henry. And it's like, I don't know what that would do to anyone, but it is incredibly unsett. Although, if we're talking about Haley, I do want to point out probably my favorite line of the episode when she is departing the room from Whitney and says. He says, I'm not giving you a dime. And she says, then live with the consequences of your actions. You try hard, loser.

Joe (81:08)

Yeah. Very good stuff. Very good stuff.

Jodie Walker (81:12)

I'm putting that one in my back pocket.

Joe (81:13)

Rob, I'm so sorry. Would you like to weigh in more on the up? This is an equal opportunity podcast, and I. I want you to feel welcome.

Jodie Walker (81:19)

I mean, that scene was shocking. I mean, it was quick just to watch those naked bodies just kind of like, come out of the woodwork because we. Yeah. Would he. I mean, Henry's kind of had it together for a while.

Rob Mahoney (81:29)

I mean, as Henry's lawyer, I'm, you know, I'm just. I'm just reviewing the paperwork over here.

Jodie Walker (81:33)

I'm seeing you're here to protect a man, for one.

Rob Mahoney (81:36)

No one can confirm who was on the other side of that glory hole, if it was even a person, you know, like, who's to say what happened there?

Joe (81:43)

AI, I'm seeing.

Jodie Walker (81:45)

And maybe he was painting those gals in the room. We don't know. He could have been working on his.

Rob Mahoney (81:49)

If you'll consult subclause B, I think if there's two other people, they cancel out. Right? Is that how that works?

Joe (81:55)

The sharpest legal mind that money has to offer. Rob Mahoney. All right, so that is this jam packed episode of Industry. Anything else you guys want to talk about that we haven't touched upon?

Jodie Walker (82:05)

I would like for everyone to say on the way out, whether they think that is Whitney's real or fake past sport.

Joe (82:11)

I like the idea of it being real.

Rob Mahoney (82:14)

I. As do I. I think Whitney is a construction, and that's because I, too, want to dance with somebody.

Joe (82:23)

Jody, where do you know?

Jodie Walker (82:24)

For the sake of having a ball game, I'll say that it's fake.

Joe (82:27)

There we go.

Jodie Walker (82:28)

I. I bought the photo. I was like, yeah, that really. That looks. That looks real. So I did kind of think it was real. But, yeah, I'm gonna say it's fake. I'm gonna say he had it on deck with his piles.

Joe (82:37)

Was there, Was there a. Yeah, there's probably like a duffel bag or under a floorboard somewhere full of passports. But there was a, like a beard in that photo, right? Yeah. Do you think we get to see a fake beard before the season's over?

Jodie Walker (82:51)

I bet his prosthetic work is great.

Joe (82:53)

One can only hope.

Jodie Walker (82:54)

I bet his old age makeup is excellent.

Rob Mahoney (82:57)

If we are going to do the Americans, let's do it right. Let's get some really, really patchy wigs going on. Let's get some strange beards. Let's just go. Go right into it.

Joe (83:05)

I need some large wireframe glasses. All right, well, that has been industry. Thank you so much as always to Jody Walker in New York and Rob Mahoney in his home and Kai Grady here in the studio and Justin Sales, wherever he may be. And we will be back next week with more industry. We've got. Also on this feed, we've got Kitty, Rich and I did the first three episodes of Love Story. And Rob and I will be ongoing forever for the rest of the year with a pit, it feels like probably. And you can email us freshtiestvpotify.com you can find us on the socials. Rob, what is that? What is our social handle?

Rob Mahoney (83:43)

It's prestige TV Pod, on Instagram, on TikTok, on. I don't know, wherever it is that Whitney's finding his drugs, you can probably find us on there, too. The Dark Ones.

Joe (83:56)

The Dark One. And of course, harpscord. Straponmail.com. thank you so much. We'll see you soon. Bye, Sam.