'Love Story' Episodes 1-3: American Royal-Tea

Summary

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The Prestige TV Podcast: 'Love Story' Episodes 1–3 — American Royal-Tea

Date: February 16, 2026
Hosts: Joanna Robinson & Katie Rich

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Overview: A Royal Take on 90s Glamour, Tragedy, and American Mystique

Joanna Robinson and Katie Rich break down FX’s new series Love Story (formerly American Love Story) through its first three-episode drop. The series dramatizes the highly scrutinized, enigmatic romance between John F. Kennedy Jr. and Carolyn Bessette, brushing against the mythos of American royalty, 1990s New York, celebrity culture, and the private/public divide. The hosts take a high-level view of the show’s creative choices, casting, historical accuracy, and what makes Carolyn and JFK Jr. fascinating—or sometimes elusive—figures for a modern prestige drama.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. The Kennedy-Bessette Appeal: Nostalgia and Enigma

• Personal Memories:
  • Katie (03:10): “I remember when their plane crashed…I bet I knew nothing about Carolyn. Like, I was not, like, a fashiony kind of teenager. …I think that probably came around the time of working at Vanity Fair, editing fashion stories, like, knowing her wedding dress is iconic…”
  • Joanna (03:55): “My only memory of them is the wedding. Like, the wedding photos, her iconic dress… and then the crash, and that’s really all. It’s like the wedding and the crash and that’s it.”
• Not Just a Ryan Murphy Joint:
  • Show is “closer to People vs. O.J. American Crime Story” in collaborative model—Connor Hines is creator, Murphy’s role is more branding than hands-on (04:33, 05:14).

2. Show’s Tone & Comparisons to Other Ryan Murphy Works

• Vibe Check:
  • Katie (05:59): “It’s got, like, so much People vs. OJ vibes… the period detail, the investment in the figures… there’s a richness…”
  • But: Lacks the immediate thematic and cultural stakes of OJ, doesn’t grab with the same “hook.”
• Royalty Parallel:
  • Both hosts draw comparisons to The Crown (Netflix’s upcoming Kennedy-focused series, Princess Diana storylines, and American “royals” (09:01–09:35).

3. Getting Under Carolyn’s Skin—Or Not?

• A Tough Nut to Crack:
  • Katie (10:10): “She’s not really trying that hard to be relatable to us, the viewer… you do feel the kind of the spotlight struggling to figure out who it wants to focus on.”
  • The show’s source material is “Once Upon a Time: The Captivating Life of Carolyn Bessette Kennedy” (2024)—but much early material comes from ex-boyfriend Michael Bergin’s memoir (13:26–15:51).
  • Joanna (15:11): “I am curious how you would feel if one of your ex boyfriends was a major source in a TV show about you when you’ve purposely kept yourself distant…”

4. Narrative Structure—Past, Present, and Inevitable Tragedy

• Opening Flashforward:
  • The show opens on the fateful day of the fatal plane crash, then jumps back to 1992, highlighting the contrast in Carolyn’s persona then and later.
  • Joanna (12:19): “I like that contrast of like, she became this sleeker, blonder, picture perfect Kennedy bride. But what it did to her personality and her confidence… is the journey that we’re going on.”
• Stakes of Foreknowledge:
  • Katie (11:25): “I don’t know what it gave us here. Like, everyone, presumably anyone watching this knows that’s how it ends…”

5. Performances, Casting & Character Chemistry

• Sarah Pidgeon as Carolyn & Paul Kelly as JFK Jr.:
  • Joanna (21:53): “No matter how much attention this show gets or doesn’t, this is such a calling card for Sarah Pidgeon… just endlessly watchable.”
  • Paul Kelly was cast weeks before production; he balances “arrested development” with sincerity.
  • Katie (22:51): “He has this Arrested Development thing, but there’s such a sincerity… I feel for him.”
• Naomi Watts as Jackie O.:
  • Performance is highlighted as “a big swing,” mirroring Natalie Portman’s Jackie but perhaps feeling “off” for the hosts (25:05–25:43).
  • Dialogue sometimes too expository or “not how a normal conversation happens” (25:52, 26:11).

6. The Supporting Cast: Family Tension and Fashion Ecosystem

• Grace Gummer as Caroline Kennedy:
  • Compared to Erin Doherty's Princess Anne in The Crown for her reserved take (27:38).
• Alessandro Nivola as Calvin Klein:
  • Brings “haughtiness and menace;” offers a view into 90s NYC fashion as another hierarchical world (39:17–40:39).
• Daryl Hannah Character (Dree Hemingway):
  • Joanna (32:12): “Daryl has a really thankless role… I am deeply unhappy with this show if I’m Daryl Hannah.”

7. Authenticity: Fashion, Pop Culture & Event “Truths”

• The show leans hard on period-appropriate fashion but faced early criticism for inaccuracies (40:39–41:35).
• The dog-killing subplot (43:18): “We can’t do the show without Daryl Hannah’s dead dog ashes in it… it’s this weird, like, ending of the episode.”

8. Thematic Depth—What Is This Show About?

• Struggles to achieve the same topical richness as People vs. O.J., but raises questions about celebrity privacy, public image, legacy, and the cost of American mythology (35:42–38:27).
• Discussion about possible directions—should it be more about fashion/culture than the heavy Kennedy legacy?

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments (with Timestamps)

• On the “Ryan Murphy” Effect:
  Joanna (05:20): “When you say Ryan Murphy, I feel like the Ryan Murphy brand means something specifically… but I kind of think that this isn’t really that energy.”
• On Recollections of Carolyn Bessette:
  Katie (10:10): “She was just kind of a normal person who was just really beautiful and, like, kind of mean. We should talk about that…maybe aspirationally mean.”
• On Carolyn’s Dynamic Presence:
  Joanna (17:26): “So much of what I read about her was that when she singled in on you, she could make you feel like the only person in the room with her. …A wicked sense of humor, swore like a sailor, incredibly emotionally intelligent, a firecracker…”
• On the Chemistry between Leads:
  Katie (19:56): “There’s really great one on one scenes between them throughout this entire thing…they’re really nailing the chemistry between the two of them and what he sees in her, what she sees in him…”
• On Jackie O. Portrayal:
  Katie (25:12): “I think I wrote in all caps, like, you can’t just do that? It’s a wild, wild thing to do.” Joanna (25:52): “She also just doesn’t talk like a human talks… like, you know, the public holds a stone in one hand and a rose in the other. And I’m like…”
• On Cultural & Narrative Stakes:
  Joanna (38:27): “Is such an interesting… the public met him as a boy grieving his father… iconic imagery of the American…”
• On Fashion Inaccuracies:
  Joanna (40:39): “When the first photos of this show hit the Internet, the reaction… was that they got the fashion wrong. She’s not fashionable enough…”
• On Dead Dog Subplot:
  Joanna (43:18): “We can’t do the show without Daryl Hannah’s dead dog ashes in it. Like, we have to do it. But, like, it’s this weird, like, ending of the episode.”

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Timestamps for Important Segments

• [02:01] — Introduction to Love Story and Renaming from American Love Story
• [03:05] — Hosts’ Personal Kennedy/Bessette Memories
• [05:07] — Placing the Show in the Ryan Murphy TV-verse
• [10:10] — The Enigma (and Aspiration) of Carolyn Bessette
• [12:19] — Contrasts: Sleek “Bride” vs. Confident 90s Fashionista
• [17:26] — Building Character: What Makes Carolyn Captivating
• [19:56] — Scene-Building: Chemistry in Intimate Moments
• [21:53] — Performances: Sarah Pidgeon’s Breakout
• [25:12] — Naomi Watts as Jackie O: Comparison to Natalie Portman
• [35:42] — 90s Themes, Public Image, and Press Paparazzi
• [39:17] — Calvin Klein as a Power Player
• [43:18] — The “Dead Dog” Anecdote and Episode Structure
• [46:18] — Interpretive Liberties: The Plane Crash, Fact vs. Invention
• [49:19] — Will They Keep Watching? Is This a Cultural Moment?

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Final Thoughts & Looking Forward

• The show delivers visual and narrative nostalgia but struggles to find the thematic gravitas of past Murphy-produced works (People vs. O.J.).
• Performances from Sarah Pidgeon and Paul Kelly are standouts; Naomi Watts’s Jackie is divisive.
• The next episodes are likely to move away from the heavy Jackie O. presence, focusing more on the heart of the title “love story.”
• Both hosts are “curious to see where it goes”—even as they remain unsure whether Love Story will “hit” in the way past event TV did.

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For New Viewers

This podcast episode offers both a warm but critical take on the Love Story miniseries, mixing personal nostalgia, deep-dive industry analysis, and playful skepticism about turning American tragedy into compelling TV. Even if you missed the episodes, Robinson and Rich provide vivid context, articulate the historical stakes, and capture the drama—on- and off-screen—of American royalty in the 90s.

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Memorable sign-off:

“It’s more fun if a ton of people are watching, a ton of people are learning a bunch of stuff about the 90s for the first time and they’re like, wait, really? People wore pants that came up to your ankles? …That’s what we wore. It is true.” (Joanna Robinson, 50:16)

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Transcript

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[Joanna Robinson]

Hello, welcome back to the Prestige TV podcast feed. I'm Joanna Robinson.

[Katie Rich]

Joining me today, it's Katie Rich.

[Joanna Robinson]

Katie Rich is a longtime pal of mine, my first and best ever editor at Vanity Fair and just the greatest person. Thank you for being here.

[Katie Rich]

I love recording podcasts with you and for all the amount of time we spent talking to each other into microphones, it's so rarely been in person. Like what a thrill.

[Joanna Robinson]

I feel like twice ever.

[Katie Rich]

I mean yesterday, yesterday, another big pig.

[Joanna Robinson]

But then in like a hotel room.

[Katie Rich]

After the Oscars in 2020, February 2020 and then after that the force was too great. They had to separate us and the whole pandemic happened. So here we go. We're making up for lost time.

[Joanna Robinson]

But we are Vanny Fairy refugees and we are here to cover Love Story, the FX series that was once called American Love Story now just called Love Story.

[Katie Rich]

I, I think it's a good choice. I don't know. What do you think?

[Joanna Robinson]

Like to distance it from the American blank blank French story franchise can be.

[Katie Rich]

Its own thing a little bit. Right.

[Joanna Robinson]

It's interesting to me. We're going to talk about the first three episodes because they dropped as like a little mini binge drop. So we're, we're not gonna dive deep into anything. We're not going to delve into to details. We're just taking like a big picture look at this show as I guess A kind of Valentine's Day special. The Prestige TV podcast. We're here to talk about Love Story. So if you haven't watched the first three episodes, go watch them and then. And then watch her or listen to this podcast. And then also, I will just say blanket spoiler warning for history the 90s. It happened. We might talk about it. So that is the plan today on the Prestige feed. About this. First, I'm gonna ask you this question before we get into, like, the show in general. What is your memory? You're just, like, a couple years younger than I am, but we were, like, alive and awake and active in the 90s.

[Katie Rich]

Yeah.

[Joanna Robinson]

What is your memory of JFK Jr. And Carolyn Bassette? Like, what. What do you remember?

[Katie Rich]

I remember when they're playing Crash, I was at the beach with my friends. Like, that was. The news is the same, like, maybe the same week as woodstock99, if you can picture that. Like, those being the headlines coming out. And, like, just at the age where he started, you know, like, paying attention to the news in that way. And I'm sure I knew who he was because that news was relevant. But I bet I knew nothing about Carolyn. Like, I was not, like, a fashiony kind of teenager. I wouldn't have been reading, like, the New York Post. Obviously, I wasn't anywhere in the New York area, so I don't think I had any awareness of how that celebrity worked. I think that probably came around the time of working at Vanny Fair, editing fashion stories, like, knowing her wedding dress is iconic, that kind of thing, and, like, absorbing more Kennedy lore as I got older. But yeah, the.

[Joanna Robinson]

The.

[Katie Rich]

Those. That period of New York, early 90s. I know mostly through, like, other people's stories, not this one.

[Joanna Robinson]

My only memory of. Of them is the wedding. Like, the wedding photos, her iconic dress. They got married in, like, a barn somewhere, which.

[Katie Rich]

No, like a church. Like an old African American church, which, like, if they did that now, we wouldn't be like, guys, what's happening? Yeah, why.

[Joanna Robinson]

Why here? And so that the. The. The. Like, the photo of them leaving that church.

[Katie Rich]

Yes.

[Joanna Robinson]

It looks like a barn, but it's a church. Yes.

[Katie Rich]

It's like an old, weathered sea. Yeah.

[Joanna Robinson]

Weathered church. Weathered church. Her dress, this very, like, we got married moment on the COVID of People magazine, and then the crash, and that's really all. It's like the wedding and the crash and that's it.

[Katie Rich]

Yeah.

[Joanna Robinson]

And so for people who are older than we are and or more dialed in than we were at the time, this might be more Relevant. But I was thinking about this. You know, this is a Ryan Murphy joint. But what I have been given to understand is that it's closer to the People vs. O.J. american Crime Story in that it's Ryan Murphy with Nina Jacobson and Brad Simpson, his, like, longtime partners. But this show is created by Connor Hines. It's not really like a Ryan Murphy show. It's got his name on it, but it's not. He's not as involved as he has been in some of his.

[Katie Rich]

Even with, like, few like the Swans. Like, is this not a similar situation where it's. I got a creator and it's got the Ryan Murphy umbrella, but the creator can do their own thing?

[Joanna Robinson]

I think. I think it's like that, but I just. I think it's different from An American Horror Story or the Beau or. Or these other things. So when you say Ryan Murphy, I feel like the Ryan Murphy brand means something specifically in the lot. Like, since OJ Happened to now the. There's been, I don't know, a dozen ryan murphy shows. 10 years. 10 years ago.

[Katie Rich]

Yeah, I remember we covered the heck out of that show together.

[Joanna Robinson]

So I just. I remember. Well, we definitely did. But I just remember when I've been pitching this show to People, Love Story, get into it. A lot of people's reactions are like, Ryan Murphy. I'm a little out, and I kind of think that this isn't really that energy. Having watched the first three episodes, does this feel closer to People versus OJ or does this feel closer to another Ryan Murphy project that you've seen?

[Katie Rich]

No, it feels. It's got, like, so much People versus OJ Vibes. I mean, the nine. Like, the period of the setting is really the same. Like, the period detail, kind of the investment in, like, the figures who were in that world. Like, I do think there's a richness to the world that they're establishing there. I think we can get into it about whether this story has the relevance of people versus O.J. if there's, like, as much thematic stuff to explain, you've obviously got Naomi Watts here as Jackie O. And so you get. You kind of had that Swans vibe about it.

[Joanna Robinson]

That's the most Ryan Murphy, like, feeling from this is Naomi Watts's Jacqueline Onass's Kennedy, who's taken a real big swing on her performance.

[Katie Rich]

I don't know how you don't do a big swing with Jackie, though. I guess.

[Joanna Robinson]

So it's not really working for me. Yeah, well, but that's okay. Spoilers for episode three. So I will say that, like, I like what I've seen. I'm excited to watch more sort of Big Picture. The Jackie O stuff was. It was just more Jackie O in this first three episodes than I was expecting. Yeah. The third episode is called America's Widow. Like, it's about her.

[Katie Rich]

Yeah, yeah.

[Joanna Robinson]

And then the Daryl Hannah stuff is, like, also a little bumpy for me. Yeah. We got Spot, but she's seemingly. Daryl's seemingly out of the picture to a certain degree. At the end of episode three, Jacqueline Onassis has passed. And so I'm actually, like, quite interested in what comes next inside the story, because I really like the leads. How are you feeling about it?

[Katie Rich]

Well, I think there's a challenge where you've got these really big characters. Obviously, JFK Jr. Has been this world celebrity. His mom is one of the biggest celebrities of the 20th century. Daryl Hannah is a big celebrity from that time. And then you have Carolyn Bessette, who we just don't know that much about. She never gave interviews. She didn't want to be in the public eye. She was just kind of a normal person who was just really beautiful and, like, kind of mean. We should talk about that. Like, how it's maybe aspirationally mean in some ways. So you do feel the kind of the spotlight struggling to figure out who it wants to focus on.

[Joanna Robinson]

Yeah, I think it's really interesting because I think the People versus OJ to go back to what you were asking about, does this feel as relevant as that is? Like, we just knew so much more about the O.J. simpson case, especially, like, if you were alive at the time.

[Katie Rich]

Yeah.

[Joanna Robinson]

There are also other hooks inside of people versus O.J. like, what the hell is John Travolta doing? You know, what is David Schwimmer doing? And also with love and respect to Jack Schlossberg's, whose parents are in this show. Jack Schlossberg is not Kim Kardashian. You know what I mean? Like, it doesn't have that much of a hook inside of who we are now.

[Katie Rich]

Yeah.

[Joanna Robinson]

Or versus the way that the Kardashians connection to O.J. kind of gave it more of an immediate relevancy.

[Katie Rich]

Yeah. Or just the themes of the O.J. trial that captured everybody then about race and class and celebrity and all these things and what it meant and who was taking whose side. There's not that for JFK Jr. And Carolyn, which is just, like, beautiful people who are in a relationship. I mean, there was a fascination around them. So it kind of becomes More like the royals. I'm sure the Princess Diana comparisons are going to be all over the place. So that's, it's like, where's the thematic depth going to come from? I don't totally know yet.

[Joanna Robinson]

It's been interesting because so this, this show obviously has been in the works for years and years. They announced it first in 2021. Netflix very recently announced that they're doing a crown inspired Kennedy show with Michael Fassbender and a bunch of other people.

[Katie Rich]

But like, Michael Fassbender's playing jfk.

[Joanna Robinson]

He's playing Joe Kennedy. They're like starting like better actually. Yeah. So they're gonna, they, they've got. It's Michael Fassbender as Joe Kennedy senior. Laura Donnelly as Rose Kennedy. Nick Robinson is as jfk. I love Nick Robinson. No relation. But I think that's really exciting. But they're like very clearly trying to do the crown for America with the Kennedys on Netflix. So that's, that's the comp is like, these are our quote unquote royals. But to your point, as close as Carolyn Bessette, who came from middle class and entered American royalty. Diana didn't come from middle class, but this Cinderella story of like the commoner who comes into the royal family. Diana was so open and messy and we just knew way too much about Diana. And Carolyn was this completely closed book, like, standoffish. I don't, I don't, you know, I don't disrespect that stance from her, but it's of a mystery which could be intriguing. Like on the one hand, Diana, we feel like we knew so much about her. So by the time we got to that season of the Crown, maybe we're like, we already know this story. And with Carolyn, it's a bit different. What do you think?

[Katie Rich]

Yeah. I wonder what the depths of Carolyn are, because what we see from her in these three episodes, I mean, she's interesting because she's that closed off thing. Like she's not dishing with her friends. She's not really trying that hard to be relatable to us, the viewer or the people around her. I mean, she's beautiful and she is, you know, trying to undermine people at work sometimes. And she starts up this relationship with this underwear model and you're like, you're not being very good to him. Like, why are you kind of toying with him in that way? So it's interesting to see kind of the flaws in that character with her, whereas with JFK Jr.

[Joanna Robinson]

He's just struggling.

[Katie Rich]

He's got his mom and there's this drama and there's all these feelings, and he. You know, my understanding is that when they start fighting later in their relationship, she thinks he's just letting people walk all over him. And you can kind of see it laying the seeds for that.

[Joanna Robinson]

Right.

[Katie Rich]

So. And I think that Sarah Pidgeon in this performance is really fascinating. You just kind of like to watch her. You kind of get why people in these rooms were all drawn to her. And he's drawn to her because she keeps pushing him away. You know, she's keeping it at arm's length. So I like that part of it. I wonder how much more we're gonna be able to get inside. And if, you know, we're gonna get to the end. You know, it starts with that flash forward to them boarding that plane. If by the time we get to the end of it, like, we know her more as a real person and not just kind of this, like, fascinating avatar for, like, 90s chic to start with.

[Joanna Robinson]

The end. Yeah. How do you feel about that approach?

[Katie Rich]

I don't know what it gave us here. Like, everyone, presumably anyone watching this knows that that's how it ends. But then again, like, this, what, 27 years ago is when I think.

[Joanna Robinson]

I'm not sure anyone, like, knows who Carolyn Bessette is revealing my age. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Katie Rich]

But, like, you see that. I mean, it's interesting to see them fighting. You know, you get to that point, because I think when I. What I little. I know about their relationship is that it was tumultuous and they were, like, photographed fighting on the street. So when you get to that point. Yeah, yeah. And so the idea of it maybe being, like, a point, poignant ending, like, I haven't watched far enough ahead. I kind of hope they're not showing the entire plane crash.

[Joanna Robinson]

Like, it feels a little grizzly.

[Katie Rich]

But the idea of, like, dying with someone who you're fighting with and you also love them, like, there's an interesting tension there. And for all that, I agree with you that there's too much Jackie. I think that tension that he feels with his mom, where he loves her and she's driving him crazy, is kind of interesting. And that might. That might influence how we see their relationship grow. You know, I think that's really interesting.

[Joanna Robinson]

What I liked about what we got is we get this cold, open sort of meeting. What's going on with him? He's injured. He's limping out of the office. He's got his JFK stationary. So we know who he is. Going to the tarmac. He's got her sister with him. His sister in law is with him. She also died in the plane crash. And we see Carolyn. Blonder, sleeker, smoother, but so unsure, right? She's getting this manicure and she's like, actually, this is the wrong color. They aren't gonna, like, make it a neutral, you know. And so then when we flash back to 92, which is where the story start, starts, and we see her wild haired, getting ready, but so assured in her style and who she is. I like that contrast of like, she became this sleeker, blonder, picture perfect Kennedy bride. But what it did to her personality and her confidence and all the things that probably drew him to her in the first place is what is the journey that we're going on?

[Katie Rich]

That's a really good point.

[Joanna Robinson]

I really did, like.

[Katie Rich]

Yeah. So more of that and less of the plane crash strategy part.

[Joanna Robinson]

Absolutely. What's interesting to me, your question of how do we get inside Carolyn Bassette? Because my understanding. So the cited source for this show is Once Upon a Time, the Captivating Life of Carolyn Bissette Kennedy by Elizabeth Butler. So that's what they're saying is the. Is the book the People versus OJ also had, like, a source book.

[Katie Rich]

Oh, yeah, I think I read that whole book.

[Joanna Robinson]

I remember it. So that's. But that book came out in 2024. They've been working on this since 2021. So I'm like, how much can that book actually be the source of this?

[Katie Rich]

Is the writer of the book credited on the show in any way? Like, is it a parallel process thing?

[Joanna Robinson]

I. I don't know that. I. I don't know that she's, like, credited as a. It's credited as directly inspired. I don't see her in the, like, producer rank.

[Katie Rich]

I just wonder if, like, you know, you've got an unpublished manuscript, books take a while to get out there and like, they announced a show, two years later, they're ready to start writing, and it's like, okay, we can use this. Like, it seems like that makes sense to me.

[Joanna Robinson]

What I did think was interesting, though, is like, we get as I was trying to do some light research, I didn't dive as deep as you and I did for OJ but to do some light research from this. I was sort of reading various articles that have been written over the years about Carolyn Bessette, and a lot of the stuff we get in this opener seems to come directly from a different book. Which is Michael Bergen, who is the male model who she's dating, wrote a book called. A kind of, like, trashy book called the Other Man, Colon, John F. Kennedy Jr. Carolyn Bessette, and me, where he alleges that there was a lot of, like, overlap and all this other stuff. But this information that was in this book was about her morning routine. So it was, like, seven minutes to chic. She would get up, and she wouldn't ever brush her hair. And these are the kinds of clothes she wore. This is, like, the. Her bagel order, and this is how she got on the subway. And, like, that was just the opening minutes of the episode to me. So I am curious how And Michael Bergen, the male model, plays a fairly significant role in these first three episodes. I thought he was there as just to kind of look at her. Dating a kind of poor man's JFK Jr. Is sort of what the energy was kind of. But I was like, oh, if he's an uncredited ish source for all of this sort of, like, insight into Carolyn, I think that's interesting. And I'm curious how you would feel if one of your ex boyfriends was a major source in a TV show about you when you've purposely kept yourself distant from the press.

[Katie Rich]

I would not feel great about it. I mean, I guess in real life, she also put him on the Calvin Klein billboard, so, you know, she gave him a leg up. So I guess he's gonna keep using her to get legs up in the afterlife. I mean, I like that detail about her, though. You know, there's something like, free Sex and the City Carrie Bradshaw vibe about her waking up in that little apartment. Her clothes are all over the place, and she looks incredible no matter what she's wearing. I think she's wearing a black turtleneck in summer in the office. And you're like, wow, okay.

[Joanna Robinson]

Yeah, in New York. I know what that smells like. Yeah. Yeah.

[Katie Rich]

Getting on the subway wearing a black turtleneck is a choice that you can all make. And his role. I had the same thought of, like, she's warming up to JFK Jr. But also, like, getting with him and then leaving him. And you see her at the club with her friends, and she's kind of, like, tactically calculating. Yeah. But it's not the kind of, like, upward mobility, scheming to marry a rich guy thing that, like, Diana was accused of that you might think of, like, as a stereotypical version of how you wind up marrying a Kennedy. You kind of see her in her independence and what she values and her thinking process, you see it at work too. So even though she's kind of using this guy in their relationship, it also shows how she's getting more powerful at work that she can turn him into the Calvin Klein model to replace Marky Mark for a homophobic incident. I didn't even know about it was.

[Joanna Robinson]

Oh, you didn't?

[Katie Rich]

I mean, I knew about other ones. I think that one was news to me. So, yeah, there's just so many to choose from.

[Joanna Robinson]

New depths to mind with Marky Mark. Great stuff. There's a great Variety article written by Daniel Daddario about the process behind making this show. And this is something that Connor Hines, who is the creator of the show, who, who is like a very like first time creator, TV writer.

[Katie Rich]

Where did he come from?

[Joanna Robinson]

He was an actor, I believe, and just like wanted to try his hand at, according to his Variety article, he wanted to try his hand at writing. He had sort of dialed in on the Kennedys and Carolyn and had been doing his own research. And then he heard that Ryan Murphy, RFX or whatever was interested in a project. He's like, hey, guess what I've been doing research on. That's the story in Variety in any case. But this is one of the quotes he has about Carolyn, and I'm curious if you, if you can identify what it reminded me of. So much of what I read about her was that when she singled in on you, she could make you feel like the only person in the room with her. A wicked sense of humor. Swore like a sailor. Incredibly emotionally intelligent, a firecracker. After a while I was like, oh, I think I have the skeleton of this. So that idea of like when she focuses her attention on you, does that like ping anything for you?

[Katie Rich]

It's a politician thing. It's just like what everyone who's ever run for office or like, who uses your name a lot in conversation actively, actors do it and politicians are really good at it.

[Joanna Robinson]

It specifically reminded me of the Jennifer Garner Vanity Fair profile. And she said something about Ben Affleck, said something very similar about Ben Affleck. She's like, basically, I'm going to misquote it. Great, great cover story with Jen Garner. But she was like, when his attention is on you, it's like the sun is shining on you and when it's not, it's very cold. And so like that idea of Carolyn Bessette and you can see it in these episodes, you know, in the very beginning, she's with her friend. They're going up in the Elevator. PTSD for me of being in the elevator, caught in AST and worrying that Anna Wintour is going to get in.

[Katie Rich]

They're like, yes, Calvin gets in. They're not supposed to be talking.

[Joanna Robinson]

They're not supposed to talk in the elevator with Calvin Klein.

[Katie Rich]

That was an Anna Wintour rule.

[Joanna Robinson]

That was an Anna Wintour rule. We have caught enough trauma, but, like, you know, she's kind of buzzing around, doing her thing, and then she, like, turns her attention on her friend and is like, here's what you need to do to, like, get someone to like you. This is what you need to do. And in the dinner scene, the dinner date between JFK and Carolyn at the Indian restaurant, which I think was like the most important scene to nail in all of these episodes. The way that she's, like, dialed in on him. There was just something really interesting about the way people who knew her described Carolyn as someone who. There's a great quote. It's that she. She gained attention without seeking it. And there was just something about her that was magnetic and there was something about her attention that felt like nothing else. So for JFK Jr. Someone who lived his life bathed in attention, what was it about the attention of this one person that really felt worth pursuing? Well.

[Katie Rich]

Cause it doesn't feel like she's trying to get anything back from him. You know, she. He's bouncing all these things at her and she's paying attention to him, but she's not trying to impress him. I mean, that's really what it is. Like, she's playing hard to get and he's like, I can't believe it. No one in my life has ever not wanted to be closer to me. And I love that scene. There's another one, I think, in episode three where they're meeting on a park bench. Like, there's really great one on one scenes between them throughout this entire thing. And even in parts where you're like, it's too much, Jackie. It's too much. Giving me like, you know, Kennedy family history dumps. Like, they're really nailing the chemistry between the two of them and what he sees in her, what she sees in him, what she's kind of trying to resist wanting to see in him. Like, I don't think she said it out loud, but you kind. I don't wanna be a stereotypical wife.

[Joanna Robinson]

Of a rich guy.

[Katie Rich]

I wanna do my own thing. But the fact that they keep getting drawn back together, I wondered how I felt about how long it takes them to get together. Like, that takes Three full episodes before this relationship starts, before they kiss. I think it's just in that. The end of episode three. But I liked the drawing out of that between them. Maybe could have used a little less of the other stuff in the meantime.

[Joanna Robinson]

Yeah. I mean, this is the truth of their relationship, is that they got together for the first time in 92, and then I think not really until 94. And so I like that idea that she wasn't just sitting around moping for him. Right. She was living her life to, you know, discovering Kate Mossels.

[Katie Rich]

Yeah.

[Joanna Robinson]

Which is true.

[Katie Rich]

She has pictures.

[Joanna Robinson]

They. I think they lived in the same building or something like that. So she, like, knew Kate Moss and sort of made Kate Moss. So the way in which Carolyn Bessette, in her own way, defined a lot of the look of the 90s is something that I didn't understand about her, you know?

[Katie Rich]

Yeah. Even before anybody knew who she was, she was, like, the aspirational figure.

[Joanna Robinson]

But that chemistry, I really agree with you. I think they nailed all of their scenes together. I think that final scene, when he, like, bikes to her in the rain, is devastated by his mom's death. And the, like, slow peeling off of clothes, the touching, the calm down. Then he kisses her and she's like, no.

[Katie Rich]

Yeah. And there's, like, no dialogue. Really. Like, it's well done.

[Joanna Robinson]

It's really, really good. The bench scene, the dinner scene, their energy is, I think, pitch perfect. Yeah. I think, without a doubt, to me, no matter how much attention this show gets or doesn't, this is such a calling card for Sarah Pidgeon as Carolyn Bessette. She's just, to your point, just endlessly watchable. The way she flips her hair around, what she's doing with her body. Like, the whole thing is just like, I want to watch this person be mean, be nice, be. Be fashionable, be all these. Carrie Bradshaw is a great comp for that. And I think this is a real calling card for her. I'm wondering. I like him, but I'm wondering how you feel about Paul Kelly, who was cast three weeks before production began.

[Katie Rich]

Did they have somebody else?

[Joanna Robinson]

No, they could not find their JFK Jr. And then they, like, kind of. They had discarded him earlier and they brought him back in, and he's, I think, a model from Canada. And they just, like, you know, our.

[Katie Rich]

Pal Richard Lawson wrote a review of this, and they're like, they found him wandering in the Canadian woods. And I was like, that feels about right.

[Joanna Robinson]

Sounds right.

[Katie Rich]

I like him. I like him, too. He's Saddled with weirdly less interesting stuff. Like, the. I think the dynamic between him and Caroline Kennedy is really interesting. The dynamic between him and Jackie feels strained and, like, stuff we've seen before. Yeah, but this idea of, like, being the crown prince but not wanting it and kind of, like trying to resist that in really goofy ways. Like, he won't lock up his bike and he's wearing those ridiculous hats and he's trying to start this magazine and being like, why do these people want to have lunch with me? And, like, his cousin character, I think, in the gym is, like, because they want to be seen having lunch with you, you absolute moron. So he has this Arrested Development thing, but there's such a sincerity behind all of it. Like, I do at various points think, like, what was he supposed to do? Like, how was he ever going to, like, cut this knot and find his way through it? Like, passing the bar probably would have been helpful.

[Joanna Robinson]

Would have been helpful.

[Katie Rich]

But I feel for him.

[Joanna Robinson]

Clunks is like, a great. A great headline that Grace has in the beginning.

[Katie Rich]

I mean, I think him and Daryl Hannah is a hot mess, and he could have done many things to navigate that, but having him be weak in that way and not be able to get his way out of that relationship but not be a pathetic character, like, that's a tough balance to strike. I think he does well with it.

[Joanna Robinson]

I think he's great. I think she's a revelation, and I think he's great.

[Katie Rich]

Have we seen her in anything before?

[Joanna Robinson]

She was in the Wild. She got Tony nominated for Stereo. Right.

[Katie Rich]

That was her thing, which I haven't seen.

[Joanna Robinson]

Yeah. So she's. She's great. But this feels like if this show hits, which I actually. I don't know if it will, it's gotten, like, some mixed reviews.

[Katie Rich]

Yeah. It's hard to know what makes things hit anymore.

[Joanna Robinson]

It really is. And, like, I was just thinking about O.J. and what a, like, massive hit that was. But to your point, that was 10 years ago, and you and I were talking a little bit before we started recording about. Your point was. O.J. was like, the first time we had seen something like that. And since then, we've gotten all of the Crown and all of the other Ryan Murphy shows. And so now it isn't feel as fresh or transgressive. You know, Jack Slosberg is out here being like, how dare you? You know?

[Katie Rich]

Oh, he's mad about it.

[Joanna Robinson]

Oh, yeah. He's like, how dare you turn this tragedy into content? And I'm like, that felt More poignant for us in 2016. Now we are very numb to that, like, kind of outrage.

[Katie Rich]

You know, that's. That's a wild stance to take. Like, I mean, the movie Jackie also came out 10 years ago. You know, with all due respect to Jack, Jack Slasberg, I think that show.

[Joanna Robinson]

Has sailed on that front. How do you feel about Naomi Watts as Jackie O putting on Richard Burton's Camelot and like, swanning around smoking a cigarette? When Natalie Portman did exactly that in the Jackie.

[Katie Rich]

I think I wrote in all caps, like, you can't you just do that? It's a wild, wild thing to do.

[Joanna Robinson]

It's done. Like.

[Katie Rich]

And. Cause like, all Jackie performances are gonna kind of have that similarity to them. Like, she's kind of a cartoony figure. You're not gonna do a different version of Jackie than what Natalie Portman did. Cause that's who she is. So just leaning into that and having her back on her, like, memories and burn letters. Like, I don't remember if she burns letters in Jackie, but she may as well have. Like, it was the same.

[Joanna Robinson]

She's like doing a heavy pour in the wine and going through her closet, like, while Camelot plays.

[Katie Rich]

Do we really think Jackie and her, like, the last days of her life was talking about Dallas that much? Like, there's so. The amount of times they say Dallas in these couple episodes is crazy.

[Joanna Robinson]

She also just doesn't talk like a human talks, which, like, I don't know that Jackie. Oh, I don't even mean accent wise. I mean when she says stuff to, to. To JFK Jr. Like, you know, the public holds a stone in one hand and a rose in the other. And I'm like. Which is just to be like a normal conversation mother and son are having here at the end of things.

[Katie Rich]

It might have been, you know, in the movie Jackie with Greta Gerwig, whoever's interviewing her, maybe I feel like she might have said something like that, like giving an interview to a reporter. But you're exactly right. The talking to my son. Yeah, exactly.

[Joanna Robinson]

Yeah.

[Katie Rich]

When she's just got so many like, Kennedy exposition doms. You mean your father was supported by his father to run for Senate and you need that. I guess you need to have this sense of legacy. But it's actually later around when Jackie's getting sick and is dying, when you start getting Caroline coming up and, you know, they like, go out to like, wade to the press at some point when they're holding vigil for Jackie and she's like, why do we have to put on a brave face for them. And you get so much from her that it almost made me wonder, like, what if they just didn't have Jackie in this? And what if it was just getting senses of these parents from beyond that?

[Joanna Robinson]

Yeah, I agree. I think it's an interesting question. Could this. Could we have done all of this without Jackie O and I? Actually, I think we could have. Or way less Jackie.

[Katie Rich]

Oh, way less Jackie O. I think her death, bringing them together is important. Like, I think you need to understand he's being like, you know, the Daryl Hannah relationship is obviously fascinating, but I think the. The grief that he's feeling and the, like, the pressure he gets from her, you need some aspect of that. But they just did not have to turn it back into the 2016 film. Jackie. There's so many other ways to do.

[Joanna Robinson]

It, which is a great movie.

[Katie Rich]

Great movie. I came a lot fan of that song Will never be another Camelot. We all know. I still remember.

[Joanna Robinson]

I'm curious, like. Yeah, I'm really curious what the show will feel like without her, in the absence or the shadow of her.

[Katie Rich]

Yeah.

[Joanna Robinson]

I'm also curious about this Grace Gummer performance as Caroline Kennedy. Yeah, it was reminding me a lot of. To go back to the crown, this sort of Princess Anne role that in the younger version, Aaron Docherty played, like, so very similarly. Like, so it's a similar. They kind of look alike. Yeah. Very similarly reserved character. But Aaron was bringing a lot more life to that archetype than I feel like I'm seeing from Grace Gomer. So far, though, I did really love the scene between Jack and Caroline at the wake when they're sort of hiding from everyone and talking about the garden and the weed plants and stuff like that. I thought that was really good.

[Katie Rich]

Yeah. And, like, they have these intertable scenes and she's sitting there with her husband and, like, she's Ed Schlossberg. Ed Schlossberg. She's, like, done the right thing. He's the one who can't get his life together. And, like, you see her kind of trying to support her brother while supporting her mom at the same time. Like, that's an interesting daughter dynamic, I think. And so I don't know whether that's enough of what the story is to have to get her as a character. But I'm kind of excited. It sounds like maybe there's more of her to come.

[Joanna Robinson]

I'll be really interested. I mean, I know that Carolyn Bessette did not get along, obviously. Clearly did not get along with the Kennedys.

[Katie Rich]

I mean, you can tell even from like she hasn't met any of them yet.

[Joanna Robinson]

How much of that is going to come from. Is it on Caroline to represent inside of the Kennedy family? I'm unclear so far.

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[Joanna Robinson]

What's interesting is like in all of the Jack and Carolyn here's their Story articles that I read in the last week or so, their Meet Cute is not at all what we see here. There are a bunch of different versions that exist out there in the world, but none of them are what we saw here. So they gave them a little bit more of a like genuinely Cinderella at the ball Sort of sneaking into a ball where she doesn't belong. He spots her. She's the princess, and he comes looking for her.

[Katie Rich]

It does sound like there are a bunch of, like, galas involved in their early courtship, though.

[Joanna Robinson]

Absolutely. The pool one that happens later.

[Katie Rich]

That.

[Joanna Robinson]

That's. That's definitely part of their story. But so to give it a more kind of Cinderella aspect at the beginning, but also my understanding is that the thing that they show us inside of this show, which is that it was Daryl Hannah's problem that she, like, didn't get to spend time with the Kennedys and Jackie. Oh, that was also a Carolyn Bessette thing. That she was upset or he wouldn't introduce her to Jackie. And so that's not really part of their story here. Obviously, like, it the way they're telling the story. They didn't meaningfully get together until after Jackie's death, but that was a tension in their relationship, too. And I don't know if that change was made to paint him in a better light or. I don't quite know. That seems to be all sort of put on poor Daryl Hannah's shoulders, which is. Daryl has, like, a really thankless role in these episodes.

[Katie Rich]

Really tough. Yeah.

[Joanna Robinson]

Drea Hemingway is playing Daryl Hannah. She's doing a, like, big swing. Daryl Hannah acts, like, voice pattern thing. At times, it's a little uncanny. Like, the way she holds her body and stuff like that. It's, like, really accurate. But, like, if I'm Daryl Hannah, I am deeply unhappy with this show.

[Katie Rich]

There's just no way in real life she did so much, like, showing him out of nowhere. And, like, she's on his set and she shows about the wake with, like. It's like a jump scare kind of thing that keeps happening. And I feel for her, like, he.

[Joanna Robinson]

Is being absolutely American Horror Story.

[Katie Rich]

There we go.

[Joanna Robinson]

Like, that's what it is. Yeah.

[Katie Rich]

There she is in Wake and Black.

[Joanna Robinson]

Yeah. And you feel she's like, everyone's wondering about us here at Jackie O's wake. Everyone wants to know what's going on with our relationship, Jack. Absolutely insane.

[Katie Rich]

Classic actor stuff. Like, I'm not the main character.

[Joanna Robinson]

I guess so.

[Katie Rich]

And I feel for her because he's so avoided. Like, she shows up and he's like, okay, Daryl, I guess you're here now. Like, you really want him to take any kind of stand. So as much as it feels like she's kind of reading the sign, she wants to and not paying attention to the other ones. But it's. It's hard to have sympathy for her.

[Joanna Robinson]

It's interesting that I'm like, does this show like, any woman that's not Carolyn Bissette, Like, Caroline's getting a tough treatment. Jackie, who's like, an asshole about Daryl Hannah, and among a bunch of other stuff. I don't know how much this show.

[Katie Rich]

Interesting.

[Joanna Robinson]

Likes women. I'll be curious to keep watching and find out.

[Katie Rich]

Yeah, that would be a really weird through line for this show to have. And it's complicated women. I think you can give it that. I don't think anyone comes in. It's complicated women. We do. And in theory, these Ryan Murphy shows do. Although hard to know how they add up.

[Joanna Robinson]

Big question.

[Katie Rich]

Yeah, I would rather them be complicated. I would rather. Aside from Daryl Hannah, it feels like everyone has a justification for how they're acting, and maybe they're all just rich snobs and that's why they act that way. Like, including Carolyn to some extent, like, she can be a snob and be kind of difficult to people. So it's. It's a complexity that I appreciate.

[Joanna Robinson]

The only good person in this world is Annette Bening, I guess. Annette Benning.

[Katie Rich]

Oh, my God.

[Joanna Robinson]

That was.

[Katie Rich]

You were talking about. Uncanny. Like, that was.

[Joanna Robinson]

That was a really good in at Benny.

[Katie Rich]

Really good. The hair is, like, so key to it. But, like, so much of the way that she's acting. And, like, the first dress they have her in is so terrible. And you're like, this is early 90s and that bending. You guys, like, get it. I don't know who plays her.

[Joanna Robinson]

It's so good. But it was really fun to me because this. This is what I love. Like, we used to. This used to be our bread and butter of Vanity Fair, which is like, we would definitely have a breakout post. They might. I don't know. We're recording this a little early, but, like, a breakout post about the fact that Annette Benning did wear men's, like, menswear to the Bugsy premiere. So, like, what's the connection there? Like that. I definitely Google image search, like, what she wore to the Bugsy premiere to, like, see it in action. So, you know, this is the stuff we love. This is as much a. We started 92, we end in 99. This is much a show about the 90s as it has the opportunity to be as much a show about the 90s as it is about these people in the 90s. Other than, like, the, I don't know, Blind Melon. Mazzy Star. Six months on the richer needle drops.

[Katie Rich]

Like, Mazzy Star is Kind of a cheat, though, don't you? Like, as soon as Fade into you comes up, you're like, okay, it's gonna get me.

[Joanna Robinson]

But, like, it's like Max Richter at the end of Hamnet pretty much. But, like, is there anything you were asking, sort of like, what depths could be mine here that O.J. did a great job with? Like, what. What is happening? I mean, we weren't like, adults at the time, but, like, what's happening in New York at this time that could speak to us in a greater way? Is there anything you can think of?

[Katie Rich]

I don't.

[Joanna Robinson]

I mean, the.

[Katie Rich]

The paparazzi, like, the role of that in their lives. Like, I. I don't know if, like, the death of Princess Diana will be covered on this show, but you think of that as a fulcrum point of when these people could just, like, expect to have photographers following them. And now it's so different, and everyone's got a camera phone. So kind of understanding that way of, like, managing publicity and managing yourself as a public figure, I mean, I think it's going to be the Kennedy St. Than the 90s stuff, right? Of, like, legacy and what you owe people. And, you know, Jackie saying the stone and the Rose or Carolyn talking about putting on a brave face for them. Like, I think that that weight of responsibility. But that's also the thing that has been said about JFK Jr. Always is like, he's like the Prince and the tragic story. So I. I would like for there to be more about, like, Calvin Klein or, like, culture and fashion and stuff like that than the Kennedy legacy stuff. I'm curious how that balance.

[Joanna Robinson]

I do think it's JFK Jr. Who's not someone I've spent a lot of time thinking about, to be perfectly honest with you. Is such an interesting. You know, they obviously underline it. Sharpie, highlight it. This idea that the public met him as a boy grieving his father, right? Like, he and Caroline as two children grieving the death of jfk is iconic imagery of the American.

[Katie Rich]

You see little baby JFK Jr. In the crowd and Jackie's funeral. Like, he looks. And he sees a little, like, memory of himself, I guess.

[Joanna Robinson]

Yeah, yeah, but like. Yes, but, like, the way he's. Like, he doesn't look like his dad that much, but he does enough and he's so handsome, that there is this sense from, like, what I've read and stuff like that, there's this sense of this perverse desire to, like, resurrect JFK via, like, we can go back and we can have a different go and a different outcome. Except it's the same outcome. A tragic young death. But like the fact that colliding with this idea that he's like a little bit of a hot dummy. You know what I mean? Like, can't pass the bar, Honk flunks. Right. And so he's not dumb. He doesn't seem dumb. But like, George magazine was a flop. Like, all this stuff that he was trying to do.

[Katie Rich]

Does it make you want to start a magazine, though? Like the idea of like some rich guy throwing his mind to a magazine. Like, bring it back.

[Joanna Robinson]

Yeah, like, let's go back. But I think that's so interesting of like, who people wanted him to be and who he actually is. This. I presume it's. Yeah. Ted Kennedy at Jackie's funeral, reading the eulogy and talking about how she just wanted to be a person, but the world needed her to be an icon. And so like, what the world needed jfk and what the world then will want the woman who marries JFK Jr. To be versus the messy haired woman that we meet in 1992 at the beginning of the show.

[Katie Rich]

Yeah. I mean, thinking about, like what America thought it was doing in the 90s, you know, this is a very pre 911 story. Very pre 911 New York. Like, you know, the plane crash in 99, like wrapping up this decade of being like, we got it all, we made it to the mountaintop. Everything is fine. Obviously, the OJ Show's also set in the 90s in this period. Plenty of problems to mind. This is not the story you're gonna use to get into questions of race and class and all of that stuff. So what are the other things about America and the 90s? Can you bring out?

[Joanna Robinson]

I feel like class will be here, but it'll be on a completely unrelatable degree.

[Katie Rich]

It'd be like your dad was just a lawyer.

[Joanna Robinson]

Wow. Wow. You worked at the mall ever. Disgusting.

[Katie Rich]

Which I don't want to oppose it. That I loved the crown. Them being like Princess Diana. Grew up just in a house on the estate.

[Joanna Robinson]

Not an act.

[Katie Rich]

She doesn't have a title already. I'm fine with that being part of the drama.

[Joanna Robinson]

Do you want to talk about Alessandro Nivola as Calvin Klein?

[Katie Rich]

I'm into it.

[Joanna Robinson]

Yeah.

[Katie Rich]

The Nivola family.

[Joanna Robinson]

I'm a big fan.

[Katie Rich]

You just never know what they're going to get up to now. Like every. Cause the daughter is also an actress. Or like, they're like the kids and Emily Mortimer. Like, yeah, I Didn't recognize him at first. I had to look it up who he was playing. And it's not a big performance. And I guess Calvin Klein as a person is probably pretty restrained, but I just like the air of, you know, haughtiness and menace that he carries with him into that elevator.

[Joanna Robinson]

So he's married to a woman at the time, and Calvin Klein will like later in his life come out and have, you know, male partners for the rest of his life. And so I thought that was like a really interesting way that they were treating it at the beginning. Like they had a few comments about like, our boss's like, questionable sexuality or whatever. Or in the Marky Mark homophobia conversation, he's sitting there as like a closeted gay man inside the world of New York fashion. The worst kept secret or something like that.

[Katie Rich]

Something about the 90s.

[Joanna Robinson]

Yeah, but just sort of like sitting there and his reaction were. It almost felt like he felt the need to downplay it so that his sexuality didn't enter into the conversation. Do you know, I thought they asked.

[Katie Rich]

Mitchell if he says, we have to put out a statement, and it's like, are you going to put it in your name? And it's just like, yeah, I don't want to. We're not going that far.

[Joanna Robinson]

I thought that was really interesting. Yeah.

[Katie Rich]

I don't know how much more of a role he can play in the story overall, but I like having him here.

[Joanna Robinson]

Something that was interesting when the first photos of this show hit the Internet, the reaction from people who know way more about fashion than I do, which is everyone, was that they got the fashion wrong. Yeah, I remember that. She's not fashionable enough or they don't. They didn't quite nail her minimalism or whatever the case may be. So FX has been like really heavy on the gas in all of their sort of behind the scenes about talking about all the research and all the vintage pieces they found and all the things that they did. So they're really hitting the like, no, no, really, we got the fashion right, we swear sort of energy. But they were talking about how Jackie O as this sort of like queen of the Kennedy kingdom and then Calvin Klein is this sort of like king of the fashion kingdom at the time. And so like these two monarchical figures inside of this world. And I do question how much Calvin Klein is central to the story going forward, but I thought of that as interesting. We get way less Calvin Klein than we get of Jackie. Oh, definitely. And those two. Those two. And the Daryl Hannah are definitely like the Three most Ryan Murphy y sort of, like performances and characters inside of the show. But I was just, like, really interested to think about the fashion world in that way as, like, a kingdom with a king at the top. We think of Anna Wintour at the top with our Conde Nass bias. But, like, in the 90s, who was it? What was it?

[Katie Rich]

You know, I mean, I guess it was Anna Wintour then.

[Joanna Robinson]

Probably.

[Katie Rich]

Probably. But yeah, the contrast in what Carolyn is wearing, and she walks into that office, and she's only ever wearing black and white and neutrals like everyone else in the building, as opposed to Jackie and her kind of like, like, 60s fashion that's still kind of, like, stuck in time. Upper head scarf.

[Joanna Robinson]

A head scarf.

[Katie Rich]

Love a head scarf. You know, I don't know who I really want to dress more. Like, I don't have the hair to, like, pull off the Carolyn stuff, but I do. I like that visual contrast a lot. I think that Calvin Klein office is really fascinating. Place has been done with the showroom where Annette Bening is trying on that dress. Like, every piece looks, like, perfectly assembled there. It makes you kind of want to, like, learn about fashion in a way, which I also don't usually want to come out of a show learning about the fashion. So it's an impressive job on their part. We didn't talk about the doll.

[Joanna Robinson]

Oh, yeah, dead dog.

[Katie Rich]

What a terrible outcome for that poor dog.

[Joanna Robinson]

All right, so we should say, and this is the trap you fall into when you. Not a bad trap, but, like, you're putting together. What do we include from the life? And you stumble across this anecdote of JFK Jr killed Daryl Hannah's dog, got it cremated, and got on an airplane with the ashes. And presumably people saw him because there's that, like, commentary later about, like, I don't know what people thought when they saw you on the plane with those ashes. But, like, that's one of those things where you're like, we have to put it in the show.

[Katie Rich]

It's true.

[Joanna Robinson]

It's true. We can't do the show without Daryl Hannah's dead dog ashes in it. Like, we have to do it. But, like, it's this weird, like, ending of the episode.

[Katie Rich]

Yeah, well, it's paralleled with Jackie collapsing. You're like, okay, the dog whose name. I guess he has a name. I don't remember it.

[Joanna Robinson]

And.

[Katie Rich]

And Jackie, equally important.

[Joanna Robinson]

Equally important, Jackie collapses and the dog dies.

[Katie Rich]

Yeah.

[Joanna Robinson]

And. Yeah. And then Daryl jump. Scare at the wake, being like, I know how you feel about your dead mom. Because.

[Katie Rich]

She really might have to sue. There's a psycho thing to say. I really think she should. Well, this is probably something you talk a lot about when you've got the show. It's like eight episodes, but like, is it an episode or are you just like trying to find a way to end it and then moving on to the next one? You know, where we break structuring something as an episode of television. And like, I don't know that every OJ episode was good at that, but I'm just remembering, like there's the one episode where it's about Marcia Clarke and Chris Darton and there's the one where it's about the jurors. And like, you get these structures of this really large, unwieldy story by shifting your focus. And this one is about two people, really. So, like, I guess episode three really is the Jackie episode. And we're complaining about the focus of it, but like, there's a messiness in the structure in these early ones so that you end on the dog and Jackie. And I wonder if it kind of finds a way to tighten the lens and structure itself like an actual episode of tv. Going forward.

[Joanna Robinson]

I'm just looking at episode titles going forward. We have episode five. Episode four is called I love you. So presumably they say I love you for the first time. Episode five, Battery park, probably where they had one of their public, like paparazzi frights.

[Katie Rich]

They live in Lake Tribeca. Right. Wasn't really famously downtown, so like probably.

[Joanna Robinson]

One of their big blow up fights instead of Central park was probably Battery Park. Episode six, the wedding.

[Katie Rich]

Going to Georgia.

[Joanna Robinson]

Let's do it. I guess so. And then episode seven is called Obsession by Calvin Klein. But like, I don't know. I don't know what that's about.

[Katie Rich]

Perfume. Is it seven episodes or it's.

[Joanna Robinson]

It's nine. But they don't have the final two listed on. On the old Wikipedia. Best source for anything ever. So. And then the first episode was called Pilot, which is them being very, very cute. Yeah.

[Katie Rich]

Because they didn't pilot the series. They just. They put the whole thing out there right at once.

[Joanna Robinson]

So let's go back to the beginning of that. At the end. This is another moment where it's like, what do you know? What, what can you guess? So we know that JFK Jr. Had an injury. I believe he actually had the crutches on the tarmac.

[Katie Rich]

How did he get injured again?

[Joanna Robinson]

As a paragliding accident, which is like exact.

[Katie Rich]

You think that is what a Kennedy would do?

[Joanna Robinson]

Actually he sent the. The flight instructor away. It wasn't like, hey, Jay's not here. He didn't show up. The flight instructor. He sent him away. And then in terms of their, like, reconciliation. Do you want to call it their tentative reconciliation that happens on the tarmac? This is entire show invention. Like, we don't know the state of their relationship. They had been fighting. We don't know how they felt when they got in that plane. So this is something the show has decided. We're going to. We're going to. Gonna show you this conversation at the very beginning of the show that they weren't headed toward divorce. They were headed toward reconciliation of some.

[Katie Rich]

Kind, or they were at least in a stable enough place to go.

[Joanna Robinson]

Well, this is a love story that would have had endured had it not been for the crash, which, like, I don't know that I think it would have. Like, I don't know that they don't get divorced if they go to that wedding in Georgia and come back, you know, so, like, the. But this show wants to be a love story and wants to tell, like, a true love story. And I. Maybe I'm too cynical for that here in 2026. I don't know. What do you think?

[Katie Rich]

I mean, I don't know that that means that it's gonna end on a note of being like, this was the truest love of all. Like, it does seem like they're setting them up as complicated people, and their relationship, like, faces challenges that would be hard for anybody to overcome. And I think maybe the best you can hope for is saying they're gonna try. You know, they're like, they're in this position. They want to reconcile. They're probably gonna fight again at some point, right? Because, again, like, I hope there's not an episode of them being inside the plane crash. But, like, what is the final note that we're gonna end them on? Like, you hope it's a note of what? Oh, but we could have fixed it. You know, like, at least it's like, a hopeful sense of what could have been, which is, I think, so many of the Kennedy stories is that you think about, like, what potentially. And even if they'd gotten divorced and she'd gone on, you know, she could be the editor of Vogue or whatever else, like, that could be an interesting part of it. Same with Diana and Charles, really. Like, I felt so invested in their relationship. I was a real Prince Charles apologist watching the Crown. I blame Josh o' Connor for this. Like, now we understand his powers better and he made me like Prince Charles.

[Joanna Robinson]

It's all Josh o'. Connor. But I remember you and I used to get in, like, arguments about Prince Charles.

[Katie Rich]

Well, it's a real JFK junior Thing. Like, you have your mom being like, this is what you're supposed to be. And it's not that I was rooting for Charles and Diana to get together, but you just think of, like, God, if they could have just figured. If they could have just done something.

[Joanna Robinson]

Figured out co parenting or there.

[Katie Rich]

He could have just married Camilla in the first place. But, you know, we can only go back to that. So. Yeah, I like a love story when it's a proper love story, but I'm kind of counting on this to go in a slightly more nuanced direction. Even if that's the last we see of them, maybe that's the last shot of the show. You know, we see the plane flying off again.

[Joanna Robinson]

And I have to imagine, especially, like, so much time we're spending with Caroline that we're gonna like the aftermath.

[Katie Rich]

Yeah.

[Joanna Robinson]

Of, like, what it meant for. Because I think in order for this. To this show and this story to feel like it matters, I think they need to show the impact of what happened after the.

[Katie Rich]

But that you think that might be the last we see of JFK Jr. And Carolyn.

[Joanna Robinson]

Right. Yeah.

[Katie Rich]

Like the. It comes back to that and then that'll be.

[Joanna Robinson]

Yeah.

[Katie Rich]

It wouldn't surprise me.

[Joanna Robinson]

Yeah. If they. Or like the first bump of turbulence or something like that. I don't think they're going to show the whole how.

[Katie Rich]

What would it take for you to get on a plane with your husband who had strange husband. That your strange husband has, like, pretty minimal flying experience. Is limping on the tarmac. Do you use your feet when you're. I have no idea. If, like, there's a gas pedal.

[Joanna Robinson]

I think you should. I don't. I don't think there's. Well, I don't.

[Katie Rich]

I'm not flying anybody's plane.

[Joanna Robinson]

Just to be clear.

[Katie Rich]

Yeah.

[Joanna Robinson]

Yeah. I'm not getting in that plane to be clear. Not at all.

[Katie Rich]

Carolyn's sister's just like, okay, let's give it. I mean, it sounds easier than driving, obviously, but. No, thank you.

[Joanna Robinson]

Yeah. Not even once.

[Katie Rich]

Yeah. Sorry. To anyone in my life who wants to get me to get on their plane.

[Joanna Robinson]

I'm not doing it.

[Katie Rich]

It's not happening.

[Joanna Robinson]

All right, well, so that's the first three episodes. Are you. Are you exc. Excited to watch the rest? How do you feel about it?

[Katie Rich]

It is funny to talk to you about this and being like, I don't have the, like mandate marching orders to cover every inch of this the way we would have at Vanity Fair like five years ago. So I get to just kind of like dip in and out, but my.

[Joanna Robinson]

Brain'S still broken and I'm like, this is what this breakout should be. And this is what this breakout should be. Still cook. Yeah, I know.

[Katie Rich]

Like the 90s nostalgia. Like, all the, all the pieces are kind of in place for me there. And again, like, when Jackie's kind of getting out of the story, I'm interested to see where it goes from there. I got a lot of tv I got to watch. Like, I don't know if you know, there's a lot of TV in the world.

[Joanna Robinson]

Yeah, it's hard to. Very busy and important.

[Katie Rich]

I'm gonna watch like one of the sad Oscar nominated shorts, which is like what I need to be doing right now, and then reward myself with another, which will also end sadly.

[Joanna Robinson]

So, you know, but nothing is sadder than an Oscars short. So, you know, you can only go up from there.

[Katie Rich]

Yeah, man, the docs are rough this year.

[Joanna Robinson]

Yeah, I'm, I'm excited to watch the rest of this series.

[Katie Rich]

I would be excited too, for this to be not an OJ level success, but I would like it if we can get a good one of these again and, like, have everybody talking about Carolyn Bassett for a while.

[Joanna Robinson]

It's more fun if. If like a ton of people are watching. A ton of people are learning a bunch of stuff about the 90s for the first time and they're like, wait, really? People wore pants that came up to your ankles and you're like, yep, that's what we wore. It is true. Okay, that has been the Prestige TV podcast about these three episodes. Thank you so much, Katie Rich, oh.

[Katie Rich]

My goodness, for coming on. Thank you for having me here.

[Joanna Robinson]

We'll be back with more industry, more of the Pit. And if this show is a hit, you know, we'll come back to it again in the future.

[Katie Rich]

Write to your local ringer broadcasters and say more of love Stor.

[Joanna Robinson]

It's true, the letters will be pouring in. Thanks to Devin Ronaldo, who's here with us. Thanks, Justin Sales, for the work on feed and we'll see you soon. Bye.

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