‘Love Story’ Episodes 4-8: Press-ed

Summary

The Prestige TV Podcast: ‘Love Story’ Episodes 4–8: Press-ed

Date: March 23, 2026
Hosts: Joanna Robinson & Rob Mahoney
Show Discussed: FX’s Love Story: JFK Jr. and Carolyn Bessette
Episodes Covered: 4–8 (“Exit Strategy”)

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Episode Overview

This episode of The Prestige TV Podcast features Joanna Robinson and Rob Mahoney in an in-depth discussion of the middle and late episodes of FX’s Love Story: JFK Jr. and Carolyn Bessette (episodes 4–8, through the penultimate “Exit Strategy”). The hosts share candid reactions, analyze performances, discuss the show's approach to true-life adaptation, and ponder the challenges of adapting widely photographed public lives for prestige television. They also engage in lively debates about music cues, portrayals of fame and the paparazzi, the strengths and weaknesses of the ensemble cast, and what they hope for in the finale.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

Initial Impressions & Chemistry

• Rob Mahoney’s “All-in” Moment ([04:24]):
  • Rob was hooked by the early relationship “propulsion,” particularly JFK Jr.’s (Jon’s) visit to Carolyn at Calvin Klein.
  • “Watching these two make eyes at each other across a crowded room works for me just like on a fundamental level... you could feel like the magnetic pull of these two actors.” — Rob ([04:27])
  • Joanna notes the show leaves viewers wanting more Jon & Carolyn by focusing initially on Daryl Hannah and Jackie O.

Adapting Real Events: Fact or Fiction?

• Rob entered the show knowing “almost nothing” aside from the end ([05:35]), and prefers “impressionistic” takes over pure factual accuracy ([05:56]).
• Joanna struggles to disengage her journalist side when watching “true story” series, explaining how shows like The Crown or People vs OJ make viewers question what’s real versus dramatized.
  • “Sometimes this show...really [draws] you into just the kind of story that you’re talking about... and then there are other times where you really feel them kind of sweating to match... a photo that exists.” — Joanna ([06:22])

The Case of the Battery Park Fight ([07:28]):

• Both hosts highlight how dramatizations labor to match iconic photographs and tabloid moments, sometimes to the show’s detriment.
  • Rob: “The show almost wants you to know when they’re happening. Right. It’ll shift into...a tape, VHS kind of filter...”
• The emotional choreography (ring throw, hair down, dog dispute) is interesting but can feel “sweaty and funky.” Joanna ([07:55])

Performance Analysis:

• Sarah Pigeon’s Carolyn Bessette: Universally praised, especially for naturalism and emotional nuance.
• Paul Kelly as JFK Jr.: More “hit and miss”—Joanna observes that when matching existing footage, he leans into the Kennedy accent, possibly over-emphasizing studied mimicry ([08:52]).
• Rob feels the performances shine most when Jon and Carolyn are together alone, especially in “secret affair” scenes ([09:46]).

Needle Drops & 1990s Nostalgia

• Joanna and Rob debate the show’s many pointed musical choices:
  • “Common People” by Pulp and Wedding episode: The couple’s stoned wedding planning scene is a favorite.
    • “If they just played Common People over Carolyn and John talking about their rustic wedding, I would have groaned so loud. But…it just turned into a scene that I really wanted to watch.” — Rob ([11:13])
  • The music is heavy-handed but somehow works by being diegetic and integral to the characters’ lives ([11:13]).
  • The on-the-nose choices (“Sullen Girl” for a sad Carolyn, “Exit Music” after Diana’s crash, etc.) sometimes make them groan but are ultimately accepted for atmosphere ([13:19]).

Penultimate “Exit Strategy” Episode: Deep Dive

• Structure: The episode is an intense, mostly two-hander between Jon and Carolyn, spanning 1997 to 1999.
• Sarah Pigeon is singled out as a “force of nature.”
• The episode’s high emotional stakes and its ability to avoid caricature or SNL-esque parody sets it apart ([15:05]).
• Rob: “This kind of episode...is high degree of difficulty. There’s nowhere to hide. These two actors have to pull it off. Sarah Pigeon...she is a force of nature on this show.” ([15:06])

The Big Fight: Shades of “Marriage Story” and “Succession”

• Both hosts compare the episode’s raw breakup energy to acclaimed couple-fight scenes in “Marriage Story,” “Blue Valentine,” and “Succession.”
• Joanna feels the episode concept is great but only “half of what they needed to, like, make it an all time banger,” due to Paul Kelly’s slightly less dynamic performance ([16:16]).
• Rob and Joanna agree that Jon being a “handsome empty suit,” sometimes to the point of caricature, feels in-line with the show’s portrayal ([16:29]).

Love, Bitterness, and Tragedy

• Rob enjoys bittersweet love stories and was especially moved by Carolyn’s tragic arc from luminous to isolated ([17:12]):
  • “Seeing someone who’s so alive at the start...become such a shut in and just lose her entire world is such a heartbreaking thing to see.” — Rob
• The intense fight scenes reminded Rob of Anatomy of a Fall: “I found their argument to be really compelling...I felt myself constantly sort of back footed in a way that I thought was pretty impressive for a show that could have been a caricature.” ([17:58])

Ensemble & Supporting Characters

• Most side characters are written as functional, delivering information as needed for main plot beats rather than as lived-in figures ([20:39]).
• Stand-out supporting performances:
  • Alessandro Nivola as Calvin Klein is a highlight (“terrific,” “really, really great”).
  • Leela George (Kelly Klein) and Sidney Lemon (Lauren, Carolyn’s sister) each receive props for bringing out new sides of the leads ([22:51]).
  • Jessica Harper as Ethel Kennedy praised for a nuanced, formidable turn ([23:36]).
  • Jackie O’s performance (Naomi Watts) gets less favorable comparison: “did not land for me in the same way.” — Joanna ([23:41])
• Critique: Relegating side characters to “Kennedy boss battles” (Caroline Kennedy in particular) feels reductive ([36:05]).

Fame, Paparazzi, and the 90s

• The show captures the desperation and futility of resisting the tabloid press, comparing the situation to cannibalism versus self-cannibalism in modern social media ([30:17]):
  • “There’s a society of people who are just feasting on whatever the flavor of the week is...Being famous now is so much more—I’m going to cut off a little piece of myself.” — Rob ([30:44])
• The contrast between Diana’s fate and Carolyn’s differing approach to the press is explored ([26:18]).
  • Carolyn: “She did everything right and they still wouldn’t stop” (re: Diana), versus her own refusal to engage and still being hounded.
• Show’s engagement with the changing nature of celebrity:
  • “Being famous today...bears very little resemblance to being famous in the way that Carolyn and John are famous.” — Rob ([28:36])
  • On “the cost of fame”: Neither Jon nor Carolyn could have anticipated what their wedding would unleash ([31:08], [31:57]).

Questions of Authenticity, Source Material, and “Spurious” Allegations

• Show may be based on Michael Bergen’s less reliable memoir about Carolyn, not the advertised reputable texts ([38:59]).
  • Michael Bergen’s insertion feels odd and possibly a nod to him being a “leak” to tabloids ([39:00]).

Anticipating the Finale

• Both hosts are wary of a finale with less Sarah Pigeon (“Sarah Pigeon-light”), yet recognize the inevitability of the “Search and Recovery” theme ([41:11]).
  • Rob appreciates episodes that explore the “unknowable” private moments, hoping the finale continues this mode ([42:18]).

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Memorable Quotes & Notable Moments

• “Watching these two make eyes at each other across a crowded room works for me just like on a fundamental level.” — Rob ([04:27])
• “You feel them kind of sweating to match like a photo that exists.” — Joanna ([06:22])
• “The show almost wants you to know when they’re happening. Right. It’ll shift into...VHS kind of filter.” — Rob ([07:58])
• “Sarah Pigeon...is a force of nature on this show.” — Rob ([15:06])
• “There has to be a progression. There has to be a devolution...seeing someone you love fall to bits and internalizing it as yet another thing you have failed.” — Rob ([17:58])
• “This is not the most well rounded ensemble cast. Everyone who is not Jon or Carolyn is kind of there to be, like, very one note.” — Rob ([20:39])
• “There is a nostalgia in this series for the idea of an unobserved life.” — Rob ([27:44])
• “Being famous in 2026...bears little resemblance to this.” — Rob ([29:49])
• “Trauma jog.” — The panel’s new name for characters literally running away from their problems ([45:33])
• [Lighthearted] “Did I ever tell you about the time that I...got turned away from the Kennedy compound?” — Joanna ([48:26])

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Timestamps for Important Segments

• Introducing Rob Mahoney, Show Background: [01:21–04:19]
• Early Reactions, Chemistry, and Relationships: [04:20–07:55]
• Portrayal of Reality vs. Dramatization: [05:27–08:36]
• Performance Appraisals (Sarah Pigeon / Paul Kelly): [08:52–09:59, 13:07–15:45]
• Needle Drops and Nostalgia: [10:18–13:24]
• Breakdown of “Exit Strategy” Episode: [14:17–17:58]
• Bittersweet Romance and Emotional Arc: [17:12–18:52]
• Supporting Cast, Ensemble Notes: [20:39–24:27]
• Press, Paparazzi, and Fame Analysis: [26:04–32:48]
• Anticipating the Finale & What’s Next: [41:11–43:07]
• Outrunning Problems (‘Trauma Jog’ Trope): [44:08–46:42]
• Funny/Personal Kennedy Anecdote: [48:26–49:37]

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Closing Thoughts

Joanna and Rob deliver an insightful analysis of FX’s Love Story, embracing both the show’s intoxicating romance and its sometimes heavy-handed, literal approach to tabloid drama. With strong praise for Sarah Pigeon’s star turn and clear-eyed critiques of the ensemble’s depth, they contextualize the show within a larger TV landscape obsessed with real-life adaptation, fame, and public mythmaking. Listeners are left eager for the finale, and for conversations to come.

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Contact & Feedback:

• Email: [e-mail]
• Instagram: @prestigetvpod
• Call-in TV Prescriptions: [phone]

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“They have the thing you can’t fake. There is a real magnetic chemistry between them that I will watch as much of that as we have left, unfortunately fleetingly little of it.” — Rob Mahoney ([43:49])

Transcript

[Joanna Robinson]

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[Joanna Robinson]

Hello. Welcome back to the Prestige TV podcast feed. I'm Joanna Robinson.

[Rob Mahoney]

I'm Rob Mahoney.

[Joanna Robinson]

And at Rob Mahoney's insistence, we are here with the penultimate episode of FX's Love Story. Colon, JFK Jr. And Carolyn Bessette, I guess. Is that where we're going with.

[Rob Mahoney]

I guess that's the subtitle. But look, I couldn't let you and Katie have all the fun. I had to get in on some Love Story action. I'm really enjoying the series, I have to say.

[Joanna Robinson]

So we did do a podcast at the beginning of the series. Rob was not here but my pal Katie Rich was here. So that does exist in the feed if you want to see. See like what we thought of the beginning. Rob felt left out, wanted to join in the Love Story fun. Yeah, it can't just be Bill Simmons recording from his sauna giving Love Story, but this has been a popular show.

[Rob Mahoney]

I'm glad to hear it.

[Joanna Robinson]

Kind of a hit. We're here to talk about up through episode eight, exit strategy. So the penultimate episode and then we are planning to be back for the finale next week which is called Search and Recovery. Tough. We're not going to go sort of beat by beat because we're doing a bit of a catch up. Also, Rob has not been here so I need to like get your takes from the beginning. Before we get into that, do you want to tell people sort of like where they can email us, where they can find us on social, et cetera, Et cetera.

[Rob Mahoney]

I'm so glad you asked, Joe. They can always email [e-mail] and they can find us increasingly on social media at prestigetvpod, including on Instagram.

[Joanna Robinson]

Speaking of social media, we're also doing these, this TV Prescription series. There's a phone number that our listeners can call in if they want to get TV personalized TV recommendations for us. What is that phone number?

[Rob Mahoney]

Yeah. If you would like one of these recommendations.

[Joanna Robinson]

Yes.

[Rob Mahoney]

Call the number 909-313-4046 and you will be met with a series of prompts about, you know, what you're watching, what you don't like, who you're watching with. And we're going to try to tailor as specifically as humanly possible to your exact needs.

[Joanna Robinson]

Stay on the line. If it rings a bunch, someone will. A message will, will appear eventually. This is a follow up on our pit pod from earlier this week. We got a comment. One of our listeners was taken aback by the way that I say the word golf. Do I say it? How do you say that word? Golf? Golf.

[Rob Mahoney]

How did. Was there a specific objection?

[Joanna Robinson]

No, just, wow, the way that Joanna says golf.

[Rob Mahoney]

What kind of tailspin did this put you into? A huge one.

[Joanna Robinson]

Because I was like, you know how some people pronounce like bag weirdly, you know, they say bag. Bag or like dragon or like whatever. Yeah. But golf. I didn't even know there were multiple ways to pronounce it. Are you hitting the L's here? I.

[Rob Mahoney]

Give me one more time. Golf feels normal to me.

[Joanna Robinson]

Okay.

[Rob Mahoney]

I guess if golf, if you want

[Joanna Robinson]

to really hit the O sound to distinguish from golf of Mexico.

[Rob Mahoney]

Are you going golf? Like, are you very. Are you. Are you goofying this thing?

[Joanna Robinson]

Oh, like Garsh?

[Rob Mahoney]

Yeah.

[Joanna Robinson]

No, I don't think so. Golf. I don't think so. All right. It's late on a Friday, so I have lost my mind. Let's talk about Love Story. We're just going to run through some questions that I have for you. Rob Mahoney, when you started watching this season.

[Rob Mahoney]

Yes.

[Joanna Robinson]

You texted me fairly immediately. You said, I'm all in.

[Rob Mahoney]

I'm in.

[Joanna Robinson]

Why? Tell me why.

[Rob Mahoney]

I mean, I'm a simple man, and watching these two make eyes at each other across a crowded room works for me just like on a fundamental level. And so there's a lot, I think, in the propulsion of those kind of like early seeds of their relationship that are really exciting. The scene in particular, though, that did it for me was when JFK Jr goes into Calvin Klein, to see Carolyn again, to kind of get measured for a suit, but really just to see Carolyn again, just the charge of that scene as she is, like, taking his measurements and bantering with him. And I would say as a viewer, the way I was feeling, like, the negative space between them and clocking, like, how close proximally are these people to each other, you could feel like the magnetic pull of these two actors. And that's something I want to see more of. And I think the first couple episodes do an interesting job of withholding that because there's so much else going on.

[Joanna Robinson]

There's a lot of Daryl Hannah.

[Rob Mahoney]

There's a lot of Daryl Hannah. There's a lot of Jackie O. There's a lot that I'm not that interested in, to be honest, in the first couple episodes. But part of the result of that is it left me wanting a lot more of Carolyn and Jon.

[Joanna Robinson]

How much, you know, Katie and I talked about this a bit when we recorded at the start of the season. But what, if anything at all, did you know about these two before starting the show?

[Rob Mahoney]

Almost nothing. Yeah, I know the end. I know the end game.

[Joanna Robinson]

Yes.

[Rob Mahoney]

That's about it.

[Joanna Robinson]

Right.

[Rob Mahoney]

And the end, you know, that they were obviously figures in the public eye, but not the extent of it, not the way it's being portrayed in the show. You know, it's one of those things I know, like the broadest possible strokes.

[Joanna Robinson]

Where are you in general on sort of based on a true story shows or films.

[Rob Mahoney]

Interested, but not interested in, like, a relentless commitment to detail. You know, like, I don't need my ripped from the headline series to be point faithful. I don't need it to absolutely hit X, Y and Z marks along the way. I just want to watch, like an interesting portrayal of a thing. And if you want to take a certain amount of liberty with that, I'm game for it. And I think I'm probably more interested in, you know, a more impressionistic look at a famous person or a real life person.

[Joanna Robinson]

This is a question I had for later. But, you know, it's hard for me to watch these shows divorced from how I used to cover these shows like the Crown or the People versus OJ Or Versace or all these other shows Is like one of my jobs as a journalist used to be sort of like, what's the true story, you know, and what is the story they're telling here? And because people are constantly Googling like, did this actually happen? Did Carolyn's mom actually give that speech at, you know, the rehearsal dinner xyz. And you got to have that, like, SEO Friendly article ready. So, like, it's. It's hard for me to just sort of get lost in shows like these. But sometimes this show, I think is more successful than others at really drawing you into just the kind of story that you're talking about here. And then there are other times where you really feel them kind of sweating to match. Like a photo that exists. So, for example, when Carolyn and Dawn are like, walking out of the church, the very famous wedding photo that was on the COVID of People magazine, hitting that, like, hand kiss just perfectly. Or I would say even more so. Something like the sort of tabloid infamous argument they had in Battery Park.

[Rob Mahoney]

Yeah.

[Joanna Robinson]

How do we recreate that fight without knowing exactly what was said in that fight, but knowing that according to the photos, a ring was thrown, like, hair came down, people were shoved, people were jumping on top of each other. So you could like, watch them sort of try to, like, hit the choreography. Like, her hair goes up, then her hair comes down, and it's like she grabs the dog, he grabs the dog. But, you know, like, all this sort of stuff really felt like they were trying to hit the beats to match the paparazzi photos.

[Rob Mahoney]

Definitely.

[Joanna Robinson]

And those moments feel a little sweaty and funky to me. Do you know what I mean?

[Rob Mahoney]

I think for sure. And the show almost wants you to know when they're happening. Right. It'll. It'll shift into like, you know, a tape, VHS kind of filter. If it's like this is supposed to be something from paparazzi footage, you'll see a lot of like, cameramen snapping shots at opportune moments that, yeah, you would recognize, I think the more successful ones, honestly, I think Battery park is a good example of. I'm compelled enough by the animation of these characters and the emotion of that moment and the idea of negotiating out in public whether it's a good idea to be married in a way that is not a logical thing to do, but is something that people do.

[Sponsor/Advertisement Voice]

Right.

[Rob Mahoney]

Just a boiling over effect for Carolyn in particular, of, I'm not sure I want to do this and why aren't we talking about it? And so I was glued to that particular scene. But then there's other ones where it's like, yeah, I understand what we're doing here and I don't particularly care about it, but I'm sure there's a viewer out there who wants to see those moments.

[Joanna Robinson]

Something I noticed about. So Sarah Pigeon is doing, I think, an incredible job as. As Carolyn and then Paul Kelly is like sort of ebbs and flows for me as a. As a performance as JFK Jr. But something I've noticed, that is when he is recreating footage that exists, it's so clear to me that he has watched the game tape because his accent gets like, actually kind of stronger when he likes. Goes out and gives the news about Jackie's death or whatever. Like that footage exists. So he could just study that footage, listen to the vowel sounds. And then he starts to sound more like a Kennedy when he does those scenes, which I think is really interesting. This is might be a psychotic way to watch a television show. But like, I don't know how to turn my brain off. They're also welcome.

[Rob Mahoney]

Like it's part of the experience.

[Joanna Robinson]

Has did any scene. You know, you mentioned the. The suit fitting scene. Are there any other scenes where you just sort of like got lost in the sauce of their dynamic and weren't thinking about. This is a story based on real people.

[Rob Mahoney]

I mean, honestly, almost anytime that they're together alone.

[Joanna Robinson]

Alone. Okay. Yeah.

[Rob Mahoney]

But also, you know, even just when they're kind of like flirting in the early stages of their relationship but haven't come out in public with it yet and passing like olives in a bar.

[Joanna Robinson]

That was a really great sequence. The whole like our secret affair sequence was really, really good. In this, like, more recent batch of episodes. I would say in the wedding episode, which is titled the Wedding very helpfully, yes. They get high and are like, planning what the wedding will be. And Common People by Pulp is playing.

[Rob Mahoney]

And I would like to discuss this in greater detail.

[Joanna Robinson]

There's an article in Vanity Fair about how they had to work really hard to get Pulp to agree to sign off to put Common People in there. They, I think, did not get the sign off on Night Swimming, which is why that swimming scene takes place during the day in the wedding episode. But they really wanted the on the nose REM Night swimming needle drop there.

[Rob Mahoney]

I really need to read this Pulp article because the idea of Pulp. Pulp, who are like, secretly quite posh but pretend to not be posh, not wanting their music associated with the Kennedys is very funny.

[Joanna Robinson]

Yeah. What do you want to say about Pulp? I mean, I just really liked that scene. That just felt like two real people. Also, Paul Anthony Kelly, like one of the hunkiest men alive who's playing very hunky. This man has zero dance moves.

[Rob Mahoney]

Oh, repeatedly.

[Joanna Robinson]

Often.

[Rob Mahoney]

It's a brave dancing performance.

[Joanna Robinson]

It is wild to watch. But what do you want to say about about that scene or Common People.

[Rob Mahoney]

I mean, I kind of want to talk about the needle drops in general with this because I think in a. In a slightly different format, a slightly different show, it would feel super cloying. The amount of pop music that's in this show. It's a lot. It's a ton, all the time, and I really love it. And I'm. I've been trying to put my finger on why this feels better than so many others. And I think the Common People sequence, in addition to, like, all the SADE stuff, like making the music intertwine with the people's lives, makes it feel so much more organic and turning that music cue into a diegetic one. If they just played Common People over Carolyn and John talking about their rustic wedding, I would have groaned so loud. But that. It's this, like, kind of sweet, kind of lame, like, couple in love having this moment. I'm gonna turn on this music and it's like, yeah, it's very on the nose for what they're talking about, but it just turned into a scene that I really wanted to watch.

[Joanna Robinson]

And, yeah, there's also, like, Katie and I talked about this a bit, but there's an interesting sort of. We're taking you through the 90s aspect to the needle drops, right?

[Rob Mahoney]

Definitely.

[Joanna Robinson]

We talked about the Blind Melon. But, like, in the episode where. This most recent episode, when we have the Diana crash, right, which is 97. And then we get Radiohead's, you know, exit music for a movie or whatever is called.

[Rob Mahoney]

Is that our third Radiohead?

[Joanna Robinson]

I think so. Like, that's from the Romeo. It was written for Baz Luhrmann's Romeo and Juliet. So it's just sort of like we're doing a 97 song right now and you let. You. You're. You're into that. It's not too. Has any needle drop made to go. Oh, not this one.

[Rob Mahoney]

I mean, no. Ordinary Love was definitely one of those. It's. They're not just on the nose. They're on the nose on, like, a song title level. Right? It's not just, like, the lyrics that are illustrative of the moment. It's like, oh, this is the exact thing you would pick out of a list if you wanted to be very specific about what's going on.

[Joanna Robinson]

Or you should have come over by Jeff Buckley.

[Rob Mahoney]

Actually, no, the one that got me was Carolyn is very despondently smoking a cigarette by the window. And when the.

[Joanna Robinson]

Especially.

[Rob Mahoney]

Especially because I closed captioning on and when it Said sullen girl plays I was like, I mean, of course it fudgeing does.

[Joanna Robinson]

That's a lot. The opening of this episode exit strategy had a, like, a very stylistic energy to it. And the episode itself is essentially along over actually two different years. Because we end in 99. Because he's got his injury. Right. That he has when he flies a plane. So we're in 97 and 99. But it's basically one long conversation between two actors. One of those sort of we're really gonna do it TV episodes of, like, we're gonna just make these two actors. I think Sarah Pigeon is incredible, and I just don't know that I think Paul Kelly is matching her. Her energy inside of a concept like that where it's just gonna, like, it's just gonna be these two in the episode. What do you think?

[Rob Mahoney]

I think it works a little better for me here than in some previous moments, like the Battery park fight. There were definitely times where I'm like, he is just playing big baby. And some of that is look. That's baked into the character a little bit.

[Joanna Robinson]

I was wondering if it was kind of the point. I don't know that I think it's a conscious choice, but I think this idea of him is like a handsome empty suit. Yes. Is sort of interesting to me.

[Rob Mahoney]

I mean, the show is engaging with that in real time. Not just an empty suit, but, like, kind of just straight up kind of dumb.

[Joanna Robinson]

Yeah.

[Rob Mahoney]

Like, he's the guy who's, like, sitting in bed laughing at, like, the America's Home funniest home video style. Like, guy getting pulled around by a water hose clip in addition to just, like, not running his magazine company.

[Joanna Robinson]

Listen, Bob Saget had a death grip on the American people of the 90s.

[Rob Mahoney]

You're on the pulse, including of JFK Jr. Yeah, that's true. But this episode really worked for me. Honestly. I think it's my favorite of the season.

[Joanna Robinson]

Is it okay?

[Rob Mahoney]

Yeah. For as much as I love the early stages of their relationship and the flirtations, this stuff is really hard. Like, this kind of episode, as you alluded to, is high degree of difficulty. There's nowhere to hide. These two actors have to pull it off. Sarah Pidgeon, I mean, Jesus Christ, she is a force of nature on this show. And I agree with you that ultimately, like Paul Anthony Kelly, there's a little bit too much like, squint acting here and there. There's a little too much like delivering too hard or too soft or not quite matching the moment that she's Presenting. But this show is such, like, a Carolyn centered show that I think it still works on balance. And this episode, I think, just really pulled me in.

[Joanna Robinson]

Interesting.

[Rob Mahoney]

Did it hit you differently? How'd you feel about it?

[Joanna Robinson]

Oh, me. Just saying. Interesting.

[Rob Mahoney]

I mean, it's good podcasting, but, you know, we could go a little deeper.

[Joanna Robinson]

I don't know. I just feel like, like, if you compare. I. I don't love to compare everything to succession, but if you like, like, you think about, like, the Tom and Shiv fights in succession, and if you had like a whole episode that was just like those two, like Sarah snook and Matthew McFadden, like, we would have

[Rob Mahoney]

to go to the hospital.

[Joanna Robinson]

Yeah, it's not bad. So I just feel like the. The. They came up with a concept for this episode.

[Rob Mahoney]

Right.

[Joanna Robinson]

And they had half of what they needed to, like, make it an all time banger. And then, like, like Polythony Kelly is, like, extremely handsome and doing, like, I think a good job for a first credit. Absolutely.

[Rob Mahoney]

Pretty remarkable.

[Joanna Robinson]

Absolutely. But, like, Sarah Pigeon's just, like, on another level entirely. So when she's, like, on the floor screaming and snotting and crying, like, what about not us? What about, like, what about not us? You know, and he's just sort of like. And leaving by, you know, again, it sort of works with the characters.

[Rob Mahoney]

That's the thing.

[Joanna Robinson]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Rob Mahoney]

I think that's why I'm a little more. Is a little more compatible for me is just because of the way that John has been portrayed to this point is like somebody who might react in that way.

[Joanna Robinson]

You famously, like, love a love story.

[Rob Mahoney]

I do.

[Joanna Robinson]

This is. That's the title of this show. Do you love, like, given that this episode is your favorite, are you into, like, a really messy, like, marriage story, Blue Valentine? Is that. Are you looking for acrimony inside of your love stories or what are you looking for?

[Rob Mahoney]

I'm not looking for acrimony.

[Joanna Robinson]

I don't know. Sounds like maybe you are.

[Rob Mahoney]

Acrimony just finds you.

[Joanna Robinson]

Okay, sure.

[Rob Mahoney]

But I do, like, everyone's kind of palette is a little different on what type of romance you want to watch. I do love a bittersweet love story. And so this is in the zone. The show overall, just knowing how it ends, knowing how it's going to unfold, like, gets you into that headspace. And if you're going to be bittersweet, like, there has to be the big fight. There has to be a progression. There has to be a devolution. And I think for Carolyn, in Particular this idea of seeing someone who's like so alive at the start of this show become such a shut in and just lose her entire world is like such a heartbreaking thing to see. And I like that. That becomes not only the thing that she is reckoning with, but like John experiencing that as his own failure.

[Joanna Robinson]

Right.

[Rob Mahoney]

Like the idea of seeing someone you love fall to bits and internalizing it as yet another thing you have failed. I just, I found their argument to be really compelling, or I guess it's technically two arguments in a way that like, it reminded me of the big fight in Anatomy of a Fall, where that movie, you're kind of waiting the whole time to actually figure out if you're gonna see what the fight is or if you're just gonna get secondhand accounts of it, which is, I think part of the great drama of that movie. I had no understanding that this was gonna come, but when it did, as it's going on, both of them are making their points. I think both of them are fully justified at various moments. I think both of them are totally out of pocket in other moments. And I think the yo, yo back and forth of like not even a whose side are you on? But how am I even supposed to feel about this person in this moment? I felt myself constantly sort of back footed in a way that I thought was pretty impressive for a show that could have been a caricature or could have been overly reductive.

[Joanna Robinson]

And certainly I know that you have not seen any of the American Crime Story seasons that Ryan Murphy produced, but we had talked about it a little bit about how good I thought OJ Was. I thought Versace was pretty good. And then when they did the sort of Clinton Lewinsky scandal, that one was like exactly what you're talking about. That sort of caricature. People are in heavy makeup. It just feels like almost SNL sketchy. This never does. Like, I don't think there are any perform well, other than I would say maybe Naomi Watts and what she was doing. But like, most of these performances don't feel like Donald Logos here is Ted Kennedy and he could be playing that way more broadly than he does.

[Rob Mahoney]

Make me laugh every time he pops up. But that's just because of my personal relationship with Donald.

[Joanna Robinson]

What is your personal relationship with Donald?

[Rob Mahoney]

I'm just like, how did the guy from Terriers become Ted Kennedy?

[Joanna Robinson]

How soon do we get Terriers on a tv? Recommendations, TV prescriptions.

[Rob Mahoney]

We are at the wheel, Joe.

[Joanna Robinson]

It's true, it's true.

[Rob Mahoney]

Anytime we want.

[Joanna Robinson]

Stay tuned Yeah, I was like, oh, Donalogue is here. I don't know if they're going to use. They barely used him. So I'll be curious if he has a big role to play in the finale or something like that. But let me go back and say, in terms of the fight and what works inside of this episode, when John is talking about how he didn't lose his father, he lost his mother, watching. Watching Jackie grapple with JFK's death and become this sort of shadow of herself is something that. A painful thing that he had to live through. And watching it happen, in a sense, to Carolyn. And, yeah, they say reprehensible things to each other, but that's just realistic inside of any relationship. But on the sort of larger tapestry they're weaving here, is there a side, a non Jon, non Carolyn character performance that you think works particularly well?

[Rob Mahoney]

It's tricky because I'm gonna be honest, this is not the most well rounded ensemble cast. Yeah, everyone who is not Jon or Carolyn is kind of there to be, like, very one note or to deliver a moment of exposition. That's mostly what their function is. So her friends show up to be like, man, Calvin Klein's sure gonna be pissed that you're not wearing his wedding dress. Just so we know later, when she meets with Calvin Klein, what the stakes. That said, like, Alessandro Nivola as Calvin Klein, I'm so bummed that he's, I imagine, not gonna be in the finale of this show.

[Joanna Robinson]

Right, right.

[Rob Mahoney]

Maybe, I guess, you know, maybe in like a condolences reaction sort of way. I could see that. But, like, he's really, really terrific.

[Joanna Robinson]

What's really funny is that. Especially that scene where Carolyn leaves Calvin Klein and he knows he's not designing the dress, but she doesn't know that he knows that is such a Ryan Murphy show character in a Ryan Murphy show moment. Like, it. It feels like the show at its most. I know that Connor Hines is like the. The main creator of the show. It's not a Ryan Murphy show necessarily, but, like, that's the mode of character. A resentful gay man is, like, very much in the mode. And like. But Alessandro Nivola, who's so good all the time, did a. Did a great job with it. But I really agree with you. Where it's like they remember that Carolyn has a mom right before her mom needs to give a speech, or they remember that John's friend is there right before his cancer comes back.

[Rob Mahoney]

That character. Yeah, I like.

[Joanna Robinson]

Like that character a lot. But, like, I like that performance is a really warm performance.

[Rob Mahoney]

Totally.

[Joanna Robinson]

But, like, you know, he's. He's there at the beginning of the season. He's ostensibly there in the wedding episode as like the best man, but sort of barely there and along the way

[Rob Mahoney]

to kind of like cut up John and take him down a peg and check his ego a little bit.

[Joanna Robinson]

But I just really feel like he. I feel like. And this. This is a. This is a problem that, like, again, some other Ryan Murphy shows have had where it's just sort of like you forget about the actual. It doesn't feel like a lived in world.

[Rob Mahoney]

No.

[Joanna Robinson]

Because these characters ebb and flow when you need them for plot reasons and not like, actually character reasons.

[Rob Mahoney]

Do you know, I think there are two exceptions to that rule other than Calvin Klein. One, like, I also was very impressed by Leela George as Kelly Klein. I think their dynamic. And she was also, to me, like one of the maybe only bright spots of disclaimer in terms of like, her appearance on that show. And so, like, I would love to see her do more stuff. Like this feels like something that's right in her wheelhouse. And I also really love Sidney Lemon as Katherine's sister, Lauren.

[Joanna Robinson]

Okay.

[Rob Mahoney]

In particular, like, the maid of honor kind of conversation, I think is just like really good sibling shit.

[Joanna Robinson]

Yeah. And the bathtub scene, like, yeah, she

[Rob Mahoney]

didn't have a to to do, but every time she's around, it brings interesting things out of Catherine and she feels like an actual counterpoint and not just someone to deliver dialogue.

[Joanna Robinson]

I really liked Jessica Harper as Ethel Kennedy. I mean, come on, like Jessica Harper and. Absolutely.

[Rob Mahoney]

The legend.

[Joanna Robinson]

Yeah, Absolute legend. But like, everything that she was doing was like what I wanted Naomi Watts to be doing with. With Jackie. This just did not. Like. Ethel Kennedy is a known quantity if you follow the Kennedys, and is like very much a character, very much the intimidating matriarch of the family, all these things, but doing it in a way that feels realistic. There are just moments when she sort of like, looks at Carolyn or the conversation she has about never being the prettiest one and all this sort of stuff like that, that just felt very human. So she could be a, like, capital K, Kennedy. An intimidating Kennedy that sends Carolyn into a tailspin of anxiety and inferiority, but also felt like a real person for her to.

[Rob Mahoney]

And I think that idea of her and Jackie juxtaposed is something the show is really interested in. Not just those two, but those two types of people. Right. Are you the kind of person who walks into a room and the attention pulls to you, right? Or are you the kind of person who is in the room and has to fight to kind of get it back? I think the show has some, like, interesting ideas about that. I don't know that it really has many interesting ideas about legacy or even, like, you know, combating the paparazzi or what it means to be famous. It's a lot of stuff we kind of have seen played out very similarly in other texts.

[Joanna Robinson]

Right. The fact that Diana's death is a key part of here at the end of the season. And a little bit of a Ryan Murphy verse tie in when Carolyn's like, I just saw her at Gianni's funeral, and it's like American crime story, Versace, just shameless. Look for.

[Rob Mahoney]

Absolutely shameless.

[Joanna Robinson]

Look for Carolyn Bissette in the background. But the Diana stuff is such well worn territory. You've seen it in the Crown or you've seen Kristen Stewart do it, or you've seen, like, a ton of people. Naomi Watts, you know, like, you've seen a ton of people do the Diana story, which is, like, very similar. And again, the show draws attention to that, to the. The paparazzi hunt. That is, though that is a. A reality of the 90s and the media and sort of like our quote, unquote answer to Charles and Diana is JFK and Carolyn. But, like, I agree with you. I don't know that they're doing anything that I haven't seen inside of one of those Diana stories.

[Rob Mahoney]

I think the only thing that felt new from a Diana perspective was using her and Carolyn in contrast. And this is something that Carolyn brings up in the immediate aftermath of her death is like, Diana did stop for the tabloids and did pose for the pictures and did, like, try.

[Joanna Robinson]

She did everything right.

[Rob Mahoney]

She tried to play nice with them, and they still wouldn't stop. And Carolyn tries to live a private life and tries to, like, go on and not participate in that. And they called her a bitch, and they still wouldn't stop. And so this idea of, like, there really is nowhere to go and this trap that a certain level of fame boxes you in, I think that's an interesting kind of, again, juxtaposition of those perspectives and those characters that I hadn't quite put together before. But as far as Diana herself, I mean, she is a framing device in this show, right?

[Joanna Robinson]

Yeah, I just. I'm trying to figure out what the. Because the show is positioning the story of these people. And Katie and I talked about this a little bit at the beginning of the Season. But framing these, the story, their love story, as a story that spans a literal decade.

[Rob Mahoney]

Yeah.

[Joanna Robinson]

And you have certain iconic, you know, like Diana's death is a huge, like, defining event of the 90s, but you have the rise of Kate Moss or the rise or the rebirth of Calvin Clark decline, or what are all these things that define a decade or the musical choices. But I don't know that it is telling me anything particular, like in the way that American the OJ Story told me something very shocking and true about that specific moment in time and about ours. Yeah. I don't know that this is holding up a mirror to anything in a way that I understand or unearthing anything I don't already know about the decade.

[Rob Mahoney]

Yeah. I think there is definitely there was a nostalgia in this series for the idea of an unobserved life. This is what Carolyn is longing to get back. Right. Like her old life where she could go about her business, where she wasn't being hounded, where she could just, like, hold a normal job. And I think we all feel some version of that. Right. In modern life, this concept that we are not being hounded by paparazzi, but you step outside and anything you do is observable and filmable and can be litigated on the Internet by, like, countless people at any time. That's just part of living in society today. And so I think there is a reach for all of us for a point in time where someone couldn't contact you so easily, couldn't capture you so easily. But what does that mean in terms of a show that also wants to be about paparazzi, which is such an artifact of a very specific moment? Being famous today, I think it bears very little resemblance to being famous in the way that Carolyn and John are famous.

[Joanna Robinson]

Right. And what Jackie and JFK went through is very different from what happens. Like, this is the. The boiling over point for the paparazzi. It's not over because there will be like, Britney Spears that comes after it. Like, you know, it goes on. But I do think that move from, like, paparazzi culture into social media culture, where celebrities in theory have more control over their experience.

[Rob Mahoney]

The means of production.

[Joanna Robinson]

Exactly. But it then becomes. You have to sell yourself constantly in order. Like, actors talk about this.

[Rob Mahoney]

Right.

[Joanna Robinson]

Where it's just sort of like, if I don't have a large enough following, no one will cast me in anything.

[Rob Mahoney]

Yes.

[Joanna Robinson]

Or writer, you know, in. In the publishing industry. Like, authors talk about this. I can't get a book deal unless I have a large Social media following. So I need to be, like, a personality that people enjoy. I can't just, like, write a book or, you know, be a performer. They're, you know, intertwined now. And if you got into the profession before, that was the case. Congratulations. But if you're trying to make it

[Rob Mahoney]

now, you have to play that game. And I think especially that discrepancy between the way that sort of fame works now versus then.

[Joanna Robinson]

Yeah.

[Rob Mahoney]

To me, this sort of tabloid culture that the show is interrogating and examining, and I want to just say on a visceral level, like, very upsetting to watch and to feel. And the show does a really good job of kind of, like, cloistering you into Carolyn's perspective of, like, this is how overwhelming and intrusive this feels all the time.

[Joanna Robinson]

Yes.

[Rob Mahoney]

And the way it disrupts you, like, it changes. Like the fact that your grandmother won't even call you anymore because she assumes you have a drug problem because of something she read that somebody made up.

[Joanna Robinson]

And that's true, by the way, like, the. All these things were printed about Carolyn Bessette.

[Rob Mahoney]

Absolutely. And so, like, that form of, like, tabloid exploitation, to me feels like almost like straight cannibalism. Right there is like a society of people who are just feasting on whatever the flavor of the week is. And being famous now is so much more. To me, it's less cannibalism. And the very, like, breadcrumb myth making of, like, Stan culture today is so much more like, I'm going to cut off a little piece of myself.

[Joanna Robinson]

It's like cannibalism versus self, kind of.

[Rob Mahoney]

But you're choosing what to slice. In theory, you're participating in.

[Joanna Robinson]

This is your Hannibal agenda. Back in the house, back in the mix.

[Rob Mahoney]

The Hannibal agenda continues apace all the time, but it's just like a distinctly different feeling. And I think to be in the shoes of somebody who is prohibitively famous in 2026 is just, again, it bears little resemblance to this part of it, I think.

[Joanna Robinson]

But there's always a cost. And there's a couple comments inside of this show, whether it's, you know, from Calvin Klein or John or something like that, of just sort of like, the cost of fame. What the cost of fame is, what is. And this. And this idea of, like, this is what you signed up for. But how could Carolyn know when that wasn't even John's, you know, like, you see John, I don't know, playing football with the paparazzi earlier in the season. You know what I mean? Like, he has this convivial relationship with them because the fervor was lower, like he was people sexiest man alive. And his fights with Daryl Hanna were tabloid fodder. But it was just like it wasn't the frenzy that it became once they had that wedding.

[Rob Mahoney]

Yes. I mean, he couldn't possibly know the scale of this. Just became something totally out of control. And as we said, he is also coming to all this from a perspective of not just, I would say this is something that he and I have in common, or at least the way he's portrayed on the show. A very like this too shall pass kind of mentality of like, things will naturally work themselves out in a lot of cases. The difference is he's coming to that perspective from somebody who's never had to take care of anything in their entire life. And so he assumes that things will just happen, but he's assuming that because his business partner is secretly running the entire magazine and killing himself to do it. And everyone has brought him everything he's ever needed. And so the optimism that John seems to operate within this show is like, I think it makes for a very endearing quality at times, but it also makes him like so desperately out of touch with a lot of what they're trying to deal with.

[Joanna Robinson]

So just to recap, you have declared yourself the JFK junior of the ringer.

[Rob Mahoney]

Literally never said that.

[Joanna Robinson]

I think that's what he just said.

[Rob Mahoney]

I am the big old dummy of the ringer. That's what I said.

[Joanna Robinson]

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[Joanna Robinson]

I think my favorite episode. You said it's. It's this most recent episode. I think mine is the Battery park episode. Not the fight itself, but that trip to Hyannis Port with Ethel Kennedy. Or just like all the little ways in which John is careless with her.

[Rob Mahoney]

Yes.

[Joanna Robinson]

Just sort of lightly abandons her in. In a way that he is completely ignorant of. And. But we feel it for her. Like, you know, when. When she goes down to the breakfast and like, his name is on the chalkboard but hers isn't. And then he has an explanation for it. But it's just sort of like you couldn't have asked her. You couldn't have warned her. Like he just like. Or when he takes her else, you know, elsewhere in the season. Like when he takes her to Caroline's birthday dinner.

[Rob Mahoney]

This is unbelievable. Look, I know he's JFK junior. This would be like a deal breaker for me.

[Joanna Robinson]

Absolutely.

[Rob Mahoney]

If someone brought me to a sibling's birthday party, didn't tell me it was a birthday, Told me it was a party. But it's a dinner.

[Joanna Robinson]

Yeah.

[Rob Mahoney]

Yeah. I'm out.

[Joanna Robinson]

You're done.

[Rob Mahoney]

You are clearly not operating on planet Earth. If you didn't feel the need to disclose that information, how do you feel?

[Joanna Robinson]

Because I would say, you know, this is definitely the JFK and Carolyn show, but I would say the third lead of the show is Caroline Kennedy is played by Grace Gummer, a Streep, a Dynasty actress. How do you feel like that character's working?

[Rob Mahoney]

Not super well.

[Joanna Robinson]

It's tough.

[Rob Mahoney]

Yeah. She has just kind of become the latest in the Kennedy video game boss fight that Carolyn must progress through.

[Joanna Robinson]

Right.

[Rob Mahoney]

And it's just like that's a boring way for all of this to suss out. Especially when I really liked Caroline in some of the opening episodes. I thought she again, wasn't given a ton to do, but had some moments.

[Joanna Robinson]

The wake was really good. Like when she and John were talking about being kids together.

[Rob Mahoney]

I think this show really does kind of get some of the sibling dynamics, even in these unusual circumstances. But she's just become like so much more of a stand in for the family that I'm losing interest in that character by the minute.

[Joanna Robinson]

This idea that like. Yeah, I'm just trying to figure out what they're trying to do with her. Because this end of the season incident where Carolyn takes her daughter down to the lobby to get some candy and the paparazzi are there and Caroline blames Carolyn.

[Rob Mahoney]

Right.

[Joanna Robinson]

And then that is the cause of this huge rift between John and Caroline. So I don't know if that's supposed to still be in, in effect two years later. But like, is. Is the point that they die and Caroline's like, I died estranged from my brother to a certain degree or estranged from Carolyn. I don't know. You mentioned John's business partner. We've talked about the Jackie O. Depiction. Katie and I talked at length about the Daryl Hannah situation.

[Rob Mahoney]

I mean, it's tough.

[Joanna Robinson]

Caroline Kennedy, who has the, the most right to sue the makers of this show?

[Rob Mahoney]

I think it's still Daryl Hannah.

[Joanna Robinson]

Yeah, probably.

[Rob Mahoney]

Who's just portrayed as a straight up lunatic.

[Joanna Robinson]

Yeah.

[Rob Mahoney]

And I know that's like a person whose vibe is very difficult to capture without going over the top with it, but the writing, the performance, just like literally every aspect of how she's portrayed on screen is not just uncharitable, but just absolutely wild.

[Joanna Robinson]

It's really tough. There's this really interesting, you know, something that Katie and I talked about was I have not been able to confirm it, but I have heard some whispers that it might be true that the idea that this show is actually based on Michael Bergen, who is the model that Carolyn was dating before she dates John, based on his book about her and not the sort of more reputable text that they are sort of claiming the season is based on. Yeah, again, I heard that that might be true. I'm not, this is not something that I feel journalistically I can put my, my full throat of support behind. But when Michael Bergen.

[Rob Mahoney]

So you're, you're making a spurious allegation about a book of spurious allegations that the show might be based on.

[Joanna Robinson]

It's just like a tiramisu of spurious allegations. But soak in the lady fingers of my opinion here. But Michael Bergen shows up very weirdly. He does a little bit late in the season to just be kind of like, told ya. You know what I mean? Like, he gets to show up to be kind of right about Something kind of cautionary about something. A very weird scene for him to be in.

[Rob Mahoney]

Completely unnecessary.

[Joanna Robinson]

And I just don't know why that's in there, if not, you know, as part of this whole. Michael Bergen furnished us with all these details about how she gets ready in the morning or something like that. I don't know. I just found that moment really odd, if not for some debt that they owe this person.

[Rob Mahoney]

See, I'm not even sure it's like a debt they owe kind of thing. But to me, the. The resonance of that scene in the text is, oh, he is almost certainly the leak. Who is. Who is feeding some of these tabloids information about specifically the idea that John had proposed.

[Joanna Robinson]

Right.

[Rob Mahoney]

Almost no one else knows that information. Carolyn tells him in like a moment of kind of self interrogation, and he's

[Joanna Robinson]

casting aspersions on him, maybe.

[Rob Mahoney]

Or at least just kind of. I mean, they're not aspersions if they're true. How spurious is that?

[Joanna Robinson]

Spurious aspersions is a great question. On the. On the sort of, like, cautionary tale, I warned you front, we do have this speech from Anne Messina Freeman, Carolyn's mother, played by the absolute legend Constance Zimmer in an incredible wig.

[Rob Mahoney]

Wonderful.

[Joanna Robinson]

What did you make of this? How did you feel about this?

[Rob Mahoney]

I mean, great tension. Especially for someone who, like, I didn't know any of this was coming. I had no idea how her mom might react to any of this.

[Joanna Robinson]

Yeah.

[Rob Mahoney]

And so, you know, the ultimately, like the beset internal family dynamics I found to be a welcome part of the show and their collision with the Kennedys and her standing up in that moment with all of these people surrounded by, I mean, the closest thing that America has ever had to like a grandstanding, multi generational seat of power.

[Joanna Robinson]

Yeah.

[Rob Mahoney]

And saying, like, you know what? Like, I really hope you show up in the way that I'm worried you might not. And I gotta say, Carolyn said she was right, and she kind of seems a little bit right.

[Joanna Robinson]

Maybe she would have gotten her point across better if she had had T shirts made like Ed Schlossberg did.

[Rob Mahoney]

What was the point of the T shirt? It was, I don't know.

[Joanna Robinson]

But it's a. It's a fact that they learned about the wedding that he handed out shirts that said that.

[Rob Mahoney]

So Carolyn had, I think, five requests for her wedding. One of them was no party favors. And this guy could not prevent himself from giving out a party favor.

[Joanna Robinson]

He's like, it's a T shirt, it's merch, it's fine. All Right. Anything else you want to say about the show? What are you. What are you expecting from the finale? I mean, obviously I got bad news.

[Rob Mahoney]

I've got bad news for you.

[Joanna Robinson]

But, like, okay, so this, you know, this is a question Kitty was asking is like, how much of the crash are the show? If it's called Search and Rescue, does the crash come at the beginning of the episode? And it's really just like the aftermath where we get a Donald Oak, Ted Kennedy, we get Constance Zimmer as Anne Free. When we get Grace Gummer as Caroline Kennedy, like, we just have all these side characters. Cause I don't know how interested I am in an episode that is Sarah Pigeon Light is how I feel about the show.

[Rob Mahoney]

I think that's a huge concern and a huge problem. If the show does go in that direction, especially if the notes that we end on in exit strategy is kind of the last we see or near the last we see of this relationship. It's obviously tragic, but that would just be really hard to stomach. I hope we get a little bit more. I also, again, one of the things I loved about this penultimate episode was the way in which, look, I'm outside my depth in terms of the literature base that's feeding this show, spurious or not, I would imagine there's a lot of things said in that room that no one else could possibly know. And so to me, I would say all of it.

[Joanna Robinson]

Like, it's all constructed, all these behind closed doors moments.

[Rob Mahoney]

Definitely. And that's what I like about it, right? It's like, what are the things you are doing to kind of fill out the portrait of these people in their relationship? And I hope there is a version of that, whether it's in the plane or again, more on the tarmac or leading up to their flight, that kind of continues to fill in these parts of the relationship that are unknowable.

[Joanna Robinson]

It's tough because, you know, so we've seen. We've seen them have this kind of half reconciliation moment on the tarmac, but they're not gonna have, to your point, another moment like her sister's on the flight. Like, they're not gonna have another, like, just us conversation after that. So, like, if. Yeah, I don't know. I have some questions. I'm very interested. I love that you love this. Like, it's not that often that you love a show more than I do. So, like, I think this is really fun for me to see.

[Rob Mahoney]

I think. I think a lot of it, to be honest, is the lack of familiarity with the material probably helps in this case. I do think Sarah Pigeon has just been such a revelation as Carolyn. I can't get enough of what she's delivering on screen. As far as. It's just so hard to embody a character who is supposed to have this like, ineffable thing.

[Joanna Robinson]

Right.

[Rob Mahoney]

And she has an ineffable thing.

[Joanna Robinson]

But like, yes. Maybe this episode's growing on me the more we talk about it. Because, like when. When she's talking about, like, I fudged up. I broke my own rules. You wanted the mysterious sort of like Mona Lisa.

[Rob Mahoney]

Yes.

[Joanna Robinson]

You know, thing that you're chasing and I was vulnerable with you and then you're. You don't want it, you're tired of it. I thought that was really good.

[Rob Mahoney]

It's a great characterization.

[Joanna Robinson]

Yeah.

[Rob Mahoney]

They've really done a lot to make the two of them work together. And yeah, for like, maybe at points, especially in that fight, things feel a little stilted, performance wise between the two of them. But together as a pair, they have the thing you can't fake. Like there is a real magnetic chemistry between them that. I will watch as much of that as we have left, unfortunately, fleetingly little of it.

[Joanna Robinson]

Not much. Okay.

[Rob Mahoney]

Actually, before we go, Joe, of course. I have one thing I want to put to you. There's a trope in this episode that I think we need a name for, and it is when a character is literally trying to outrun their problems in the way that John does in this show. Like, things. Shit's hitting the fan. I gotta go run. I gotta get some exercise.

[Joanna Robinson]

Cue the Radiohead.

[Rob Mahoney]

Cue the Radiohead.

[Joanna Robinson]

Yeah.

[Rob Mahoney]

I have two proposals for you, but I'm open to any suggestions you may

[Joanna Robinson]

have before we get there. Given that we talked this week on the pit episode about your tennis proclivities, would you ever go work out your anger in a game of tennis?

[Rob Mahoney]

Oh, absolutely.

[Joanna Robinson]

Okay.

[Rob Mahoney]

I would. I would consider. And many people who play tennis would probably agree. Every game of tennis is working out something or another.

[Joanna Robinson]

It's like a Steffi graph, sort of like you make noises kind of moment.

[Rob Mahoney]

That's not me personally.

[Joanna Robinson]

Okay.

[Rob Mahoney]

It's less about a physical exertion and more just like it is a mind fuck of a sport.

[Joanna Robinson]

What's better for exercise? You know, as the JFK of the. Of the ringer. What is for you? The better I write it that too soon. The better way for you to. To exercise your demons. Is it basketball or is it tennis?

[Rob Mahoney]

Oh, it's podcasting. This is my therapy, Joe. I don't know what to tell you. You're on the clock.

[Joanna Robinson]

I think our listener. We think we put the listeners on the clock for, for, you know, you can charge us. Okay, what are your, what are your suggestions for outrunning your problems?

[Rob Mahoney]

And I would love any suggestions from our listeners on this too. [e-mail] I mean, one of them simple trauma jogging. Go for a little trauma jog. The other one, Strava of the Soul, it's a little more abstract.

[Joanna Robinson]

Wow.

[Rob Mahoney]

But do you have a preference between those or do you have any other ideas to throw on the table?

[Joanna Robinson]

Artie, on a Friday afternoon?

[Rob Mahoney]

We're trying.

[Joanna Robinson]

I think trauma jog is really good because it, you know, it invokes trauma bond, which is an actual thing. So a trauma jog.

[Rob Mahoney]

I do feel trauma bonded to JFK junior After this show. I mean, our guy is going through it.

[Joanna Robinson]

I, I don't think it's a bad way. Here's my frustration with that. I don't think going outside for a jog is a terrible way.

[Rob Mahoney]

No.

[Joanna Robinson]

To process your like inner turmoil that is just out. Feels out of control.

[Rob Mahoney]

Yeah.

[Joanna Robinson]

I don't think you should then judge how someone else decides to do it. Right. So when he comes home and he's like, you're still in front of the television, like, that's bad. And I'm like, listen, we all process the way we process. And if you want to go jog and have a cigarette, an illicit cigarette, you can go do that. And if she wants to get shell shocked in front of the television, she can do that.

[Rob Mahoney]

So I like this non judgmental space, you know, especially for a guy who recently, like, was trying to get over some breakup trauma by accidentally killing a dog. So, like, I mean, you could do better.

[Joanna Robinson]

I find, I find chaotic emotions are best processed through some sort of like physical activity. I think that is true. I would, I would not.

[Rob Mahoney]

What's the power ranking like? I mean, tennis off the table for you, clearly. So, so what are we doing?

[Joanna Robinson]

It's like a, you know, like. Well, I like to. I'm a weightlifter, so I like to lift heavy objects. I'm not a weightlifter, but I do lift weight.

[Rob Mahoney]

You're a professional weightlifter?

[Joanna Robinson]

Absolutely. It's. Yeah. Lifting heavy objects helps process turbulent emotions.

[Rob Mahoney]

We should get John.

[Joanna Robinson]

But anyway, when he was, when he was like, I'm going for a run. And she's like, what? I was like, no, I get it. Like, he's going to move his body to like get the emotions out. That's great. Just don't then come back and shame someone else because they didn't do it that way.

[Rob Mahoney]

You know, it's very fair. I do think it's a little sudden. Like, yeah, you need to work through some stuff. Clearly this is hitting him in a very unique way. Diana's death was like such a everyone in front of the TV, like, rally together moment.

[Joanna Robinson]

It's like the post 911 sort of like, yeah, the TV's on all day.

[Rob Mahoney]

Yes.

[Joanna Robinson]

And especially with Diana, because the news broke and they did not know whether or not she was. She, like, she was in critical condition, but she hadn't died yet. So, like, people were absolutely glued to their television needles to. To find out what was going to happen to her. So, yeah, you can also his whole, like, who watches TV during the day on a beautiful summer's day?

[Rob Mahoney]

All the rules at Iannis Port. I mean, card games, but no board games. Like, it was all for a reason. It was a lot.

[Joanna Robinson]

Yeah.

[Rob Mahoney]

This family, the Kennedys, what are you going to do with them?

[Joanna Robinson]

Did I ever tell you about the time that I, like, got turned away from the Kennedy combat?

[Rob Mahoney]

What minute are we into this podcast and you are a Kennedy refugee?

[Joanna Robinson]

I was reminded. I was reminded when John was like, some people think Cape Cod is the most beautiful place or whatever. My friend and I were just driving around Cape Cod. We went to Cape Cod during. I had never been. We went during COVID because it was just sort of like, let's go stay in a remote cabin by the shore and like, not be around people if you can. And then I don't know if you did this during COVID but I did a lot of, like, driving around because you're in like the sealed bubble of the car, but you are seeing things at the same time. And so we drove around the Cape and then there was just like. We were just like driving around some back road and all of a sudden we were like at a gate. And there were scary, scary people. And they're like, you're gonna have to turn around. And I was like, oh, can we turn around in this driveway here? He's like, no. And I was like, okay. So I made like a 900 point turn to, like, awkwardly leave. And then we, like, looked up on the map. We were like, oh, that was the cat.

[Rob Mahoney]

That makes sense. Oh, you were in a sniper scope in that moment. They were like, what? What is her whole deal? What is she up to?

[Joanna Robinson]

And I didn't.

[Rob Mahoney]

What eco terrorism is this woman about

[Joanna Robinson]

to perpetrate I didn't smell a whiff of coffee. I'll tell you that right now. It's just salt air. All right. Well, this has been a really productive episode of the Prestige Podcast. We'll be back for the finale. Thank you to Rob Mahoney. Thanks to Ronaldo. Thanks to everyone here at Sycamore is helping us make this show on a Friday afternoon.

[Rob Mahoney]

Joe, thank you. And thank the security guards at the Kennedy compound for doing their job, showing up, doing the work.

[Joanna Robinson]

Thanks to the JFK of the ringer, Rob Mahoney. We'll see you back for more pit.

[Rob Mahoney]

Bye.

[Joanna Robinson]

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