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- [00:00]
Joanna Robinson
This episode is brought to you by TaxAct. One season that always deserves a satisfying ending tax season.
- [00:05]
Rob Mahoney
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Joanna Robinson
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Rob Mahoney
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- [00:23]
Joanna Robinson
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- [00:30]
Sponsor/Ad Voice
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- [01:28]
Joanna Robinson
Welcome back to Prestige TV podcast feed. I'm Joanna Robinson.
- [01:31]
Rob Mahoney
I'm Rob Mahoney.
- [01:32]
Joanna Robinson
We are here to wrap up a love story that is the JFK Jr. Carolyn Bessette story. The finale has aired, the plane has gone down. We have mourned, and we will be mourning the series. So we're just gonna wrap up the finale. Ramoni, how are you feeling?
- [01:47]
Rob Mahoney
Okay. It's hard to know how to feel after a finale like this where, I mean, to be honest with you, just given the source material and the real life people involved, I don't know that there's a great way to make an episode like this. It's just like a really tall order to begin with. I also don't think that this delivers on everything that it could have been. In the case of this episode. And this is the impossible conundrum. It's like, I don't know how to make this episode. And at the same time, this is the one you have to nail.
- [02:15]
Joanna Robinson
I was reading this great interview with Brad Simpson and Nina Jacobson, who were the producers behind this. They also worked on American Crime Story. I'm like a huge fan of, of the way that they think about television. They did an interview with Chris Murphy at Vanity Fair where they were talking about the challenges of this episode. Obviously, there are a million challenges, but one of them that they talked about in the finales of all of these kinds of shows, they've done Is like, this is a quote from Brad Simpson. He said, the last episode's always a challenge because you're telling what is usually the most known part of the story, right? This is, you know, like, all the details of how Carolyn and JFK met or all that sort of stuff like that. That is, like, fertile playground for them. But this is a plane crash that we all know that the plane is gonna go down, so there's no suspense inside. Not that I would want them to try for that. So what story do you tell? And they talked about how it was always their plan to put the plane crash at the exact. And it is the precise midway point of this episode. And I'm curious if you were surprised about how much episode there was before the crash or how did you feel about how they split that up?
- [03:14]
Rob Mahoney
I think pleasantly surprised about how much there was before, just because I was a little worried we weren't gonna get much of Jon and Carolyn together, which, to me, has just been the charge of the whole show, other than getting on the plane and ultimately meeting their demise. So the idea that, you know, some of it works for me and some of it doesn't like them in marriage counseling is, like, a little on the nose at times. But then post marriage counseling, I think is. Is, like, fun and evocative and, like, digging into the parts of their relationship that are interesting to me. So I'm. I'm really glad we got that time, and I'm glad in part, because I think one of the flaws of this season that really came to roost in this episode is that I don't know that love story ever built out the architecture around John and Carolyn to be, like a fully fledged, realized show. And so then when you take them out of it and you have everyone else mourning them and trying to make sense of what happened, you understandably feel the absence in the way that you're supposed to. But you also are just like, so what is this show now? What am I supposed to be waiting for? What am I supposed to be paying attention to? Am I invested in these side characters who, to this point, have shown up mostly to, like, dump exposition? And it's a tough spot.
- [04:20]
Joanna Robinson
You and I had talked about that last week when we talked about how sometimes it feels like they forget these side characters are there until they need to bring them forward to something. I kind of largely agree with you on that point that I think the foundation around these two has been pretty shaky. But I actually disagree in that the back half of this episode, which was a constant zimmer as Carolyn's mom showed
- [04:48]
Rob Mahoney
us,
- [04:50]
Joanna Robinson
made me cry, which I have not been that emotionally invested in this show thus far. And that's that performance. And those, you know, the trio of scenes, her Ed Schlossberg scene, her Caroline Kennedy scene, and then the eulogy, the poetry reading at the funeral, really, really got to me. And so we're gonna talk a bit about Constance Zimmer and sort of, like, that kind of performance. But it really unlocks something for me for this season, which is that I think the writing is not tremendously great for this season. I think it is quite overblown. And we've talked about that a bit. But I think it's sort of. It's weird for me to compare it to Shakespeare, but I'm about to compare it to Shakespeare in that if, like, you go see. If you go to a Shakespeare play and you are watching actors who really understand the emotional truth of what they're saying, you can understand the Shakespeare dialogue, even if you don't, are not versed in the vocabulary. And if you are watching an actor who is just sort of, like, hitting the pentameter beats, then you're just sort of, like, at sea with, like, what are we talking about here? So for me, like, in an ideal world, Grace Gummer as Caroline Kennedy, like, this is her episode, right? Like, in an ideal world, in an ideal performance. And she has so much. She's carrying so much of the back half of this episode. That is a performance that, like, didn't really fully click for me. And I think she has a tough job here because Caroline Kennedy is a very reserved person. So she is, like, playing a very reserved person. Whereas, like, the role of Anne Freeman, Carolyn's mom, is, like, allowed to be as emotional as possible. But, like, in that scene, and, you know, I'm gonna sort of wanna zig and zag around Constance Zimmer, this thing that really worked for me. But, like, inside that one, on one scene, that lengthy one, on one scene that they have inside of Carolyn and JFK's apartment, you know, Constance has to lift some really clunker lines. Like, my faith has allowed me to make sense of this world, helping me to understand the big existential questions. But now there's just deafening silence. I mean, how do you live in a world that doesn't make any sense? That's something she says. And we've talked before about how these characters don't speak the way that humans speak. No, but there's something about the emotionality of how she delivered that completely that it, like, completely connected with me, but then, like, Caroline then has to come back with a line like, all we know is that time doesn't belong to us. Nothing is promised. Which is, like, an insane thing for a human to have to say. And, like, I like Grace Gummer in general as a. As a performance. But, like, it really struck out to me that, like, that they're both given this, like, very flowery, clunky dialogue, and one of them is just, like, nailing me in the heart with the emotion, and then the other one is kind of missing. And I was like, oh, that unlocks the whole season for me because, like, Sarah Pidgeon can just, like, nail this shit, and then Paul Kelly can like, sometimes do it. Alessandro Nivola can nail this shit. And just, like, not everyone around them can. So, like, when you have a performer that can just bore into the emotional truth of this story, I'm, like, in and I'm invested. But unfortunately, that's only here and there. Inside of this season, overall, is where I net out, I think.
- [07:56]
Rob Mahoney
I think the contrast you're highlighting within that scene of those two women in particular is just so tough. It really, like, flashing back and forth as they are delivering that dialogue. You feel the palpable difference, and you nailed it, Joe. I think just not only believing and understanding the emotionality as a performer and managing to channel it through this, I just. I wrote down so many Caroline lines in this episode because she, in particular, is given just some absolutely horrific ones.
- [08:22]
Joanna Robinson
Yeah, really tough.
- [08:23]
Rob Mahoney
But that's part of it. But it's also just, like, part of the larger project of making a TV show or making a movie. Like, the smoke and mirrors are the magical part. And so much so when we talk about, like, things like suspension of disbelief, I think we get bogged down in, like, plot mechanics. Right. Is this plot believable? But so much of it is, like, what takes you out of the magic of the moment. And Constance Zimmer is constantly reeling you back in with the emotion, with her performance. It's just so, so dialed in. And I think where I want to extend. I mean, Grace Gumber a little grace, if you'll allow it.
- [08:57]
Joanna Robinson
I will.
- [08:57]
Rob Mahoney
Is. I was talking to Dev before this pod about the initial moment when Caroline finds out about the plane.
- [09:04]
Joanna Robinson
Yeah.
- [09:04]
Rob Mahoney
And in that moment, I think she's terrific. And there's not a lot of dialogue in that scene, and I don't think that's an accident. And as soon as it becomes time where she has to deliver, I mean, just at absolute Best things that are so painfully direct, they're just, like, stating the themes of the show. It does her no favors. It's doing no one in the show any favors. And all of the smoke and mirrors and the magic just leaves the room.
- [09:29]
Joanna Robinson
It's so funny that you mentioned that, because, you know, we talk about this sometimes when we talk about the Pit, where we're just like, the pit just says the thing, right? And we're just like, okay, this episode so just says the thing so many times. And I think the worst one actually is given to Constance Zimmer when she is talking about Carolyn and how she says, like, she became someone she didn't recognize. Right. And then she says, that person will be immortalized forever. I only wish she had lived long enough to be remembered for something else. And then that is just the show patting itself on the back to be like. Like, hey, we did it equal time to John and Carolyn. If anything, we gave more attention to Carolyn than we gave to John. And aren't we better than Time magazine and all the other press that, like, you know, buried not only Carolyn, but Lauren? Like, when. When. When Anne, their mother, is talking to Ed Schlossberg across that thing, she's like, you haven't even mentioned my other daughter who died in this crash. Thinking about Caroline, I was talking to a pal of mine, Katie Rich, who did the first episode of our coverage with me, and we were sort of texting last night when we were watching the episode, and she reminded me that I had forgotten that Caroline Kennedy's daughter, Tatiana Sloshberg, just died at the end of December at, like, the age of 35, really young, from leukemia. So it's just like, you think about Caroline Kennedy, like, you think about JFK Jr. And everything they, you know, tell us about the tragedy of losing his father at that young age, all of the expectations, all of these things. But then you think about Caroline again in this episode who, like, so clearly then has to deal with losing her brother.
- [11:02]
Rob Mahoney
Yes.
- [11:02]
Joanna Robinson
And then we know the extra textual information that she lost her daughter. And it's just like thinking I was just projecting a lot of that knowledge about Caroline Kennedy onto the performance. But overall, I think this episode would have really knocked me off my feet if that Caroline performance had really been able to connect with me the same way the Anne depiction did at the end of here.
- [11:28]
Rob Mahoney
Yeah, that's one area where I feel like they did a good job of boiling down a lot of these people to an essential struggle, an essential quality. Right. Like, what is the thing about Caroline Kennedy, that is interesting that we want to dig into. And this idea that she is experiencing profound loss across her life, across years, and in ways that are shocking and that no human being would be equipped to deal with. That's something really interesting to just dive into as a writer. And then they never did the part where you kind of hide it. It's just like it's just gonna be text so often within the show, we're just gonna say it that it just never felt. It never felt. It never feels earned when you just put it out there. I think that's part of the problem. And Caroline, all throughout the season, I think, has been put in spots to have conversations that are just not that interesting. And if you'll indulge me, one other line reading, Joe, the one you read from Constance Zimmer, I actually. She's so good in delivering it. She tricked me into thinking, is this a good line?
- [12:26]
Joanna Robinson
I know, I know. That's what I'm saying. She's so good that even like a clunker like that, you're like. I was, like, choked up anyway, sorry. Yeah.
- [12:33]
Rob Mahoney
The Caroline one that really got me was. And I think one of the big flaws of this episode are the two parallel sister conversations that happen with Carolyn and John talking to their sisters, neither of which just work because they're so direct. And. And while Caroline is talking to John, she says, you met someone who wasn't willing to contort to what you needed and you fell in love. And now those qualities, that fire, that self possession aren't serving you anymore and you're crying foul. Are you fucking kidding me?
- [13:00]
Joanna Robinson
That scene was tough, honestly, like quite tough. All right, let's go back to the beginning. So I want to go back actually to the very beginning of the show because something that Katie and I talked about and I think you and I touched about on this a little bit last week was like the decision to start with the tarmac, start with them getting on the plane in episode one. But actually where episode one starts is inside the manicure scene. And so to think about the decision to put a. So inside Carolyn's head of her anxiety. Why, like, first of all, she's being hunted by the paparazzi. So we get the, you know, the flashbulbs and the shouts from the streets. And then we watch the reason why she not only went to get her nails done, but got them redone. Inside of that appointment is this tremendous anxiety and pressure to fit in with the Kennedys and be accepted. And we know what it was like for her to go to Hannah's port before and all of this sort of stuff like that. And so putting us inside her head. And then I didn't know, like, watching that scene, I didn't know what we have her mother reveal later in the episode, which is that, you know, there is a version of the story in the press that Carolyn's vanity, you know, and the way that she spits out that word, her vanity. Right. That Carolyn's vanity is what delayed the flight, which is what caused the crash, et cetera. And Anne's sort of reframing of that is like, actually is your fuck up brother who like, you know, was doing something beyond his skill set. But to start with that manicure scene and to start with a. So inside of her head and to watch her be like, shaky and hunted and all these things that she was inside of that moment, I thought that was like a really smart thread that I didn't see coming because I didn't know that aspect of the media narrative, you know.
- [14:45]
Rob Mahoney
Yeah. I think the closing of a couple of different loops within this finale were very effective. Yeah. Revisiting some of that cold, open stuff, even the way they kind of reintroduce and return to, like the first date with all of the context and all that they've been through, I found to be really powerful and effective. And so there's a lot of, like, groundwork being laid within their relationship in the season. That really pays off. Yeah. It's more for me about everything else around it. And then once they're gone, how are we. How are we making a show at that point?
- [15:14]
Joanna Robinson
Yeah. The return to the restaurant I loved because I identified that was my favorite scene and I think it remains my favorite scene of the entire show because I do think, you know, and you had texted me when you started watching the show, like, I'm in, like, their chemistry. And their chemistry is so important. And again, even as that has faltered in the last couple episodes, for me, I go back to that scene and that date and their connection and how, like, I talk about this all the time when I talk about Fleabag season two, how Fleabag season two is a show that had me actively leaning closer to the screen as I was watching it, because I was just so drawn in and so invested by the chemistry. That's God Tier, of course. Level Fleab. How dare I talk About Fleabag Season 2 Inside the context of this. But I did find myself in that initial scene leaning towards this green, sort of wanting to be a part of that conversation. And So I didn't find it. I thought it was really well done the way they went back to it inside of this episode and even return
- [16:12]
Rob Mahoney
to some of the very specific conversation they were having. Not just the bit about the laminated menu, but the signs over their respective heads and kind of what they are putting out in the world and what they're withholding from the world, which is such a core part of both of these characters in the way they've been presented this season. Who is interested in projecting what to whom is one of the central concerns of the show?
- [16:34]
Joanna Robinson
Right? But again, Sarah Pigeon is so good that when she's like, the sign actually reads like, I'm vulnerable. She's not as tough as she thinks. And you're like, okay, yeah. Okay, so let's get to the crash. This is something that I had a lot of trepidation about. I mean, something that I think we mentioned. But I want to underline how strange it is they did not release this episode to press. They might have made a few exceptions because VF had their interview with the producers up fairly quickly. So, like, you know, I think there are, like, a few media outlets who had it early, but for the most part, they held this screener back from press from, I heard, like, internally inside of, you know, like, you know, it was just something that they were hiding the ball on. And, like, you know, that's really rare, especially this day and age, and especially, like, with a show, well, it's based
- [17:29]
Rob Mahoney
on a true story where everyone knows what's gonna happen. Like, to bring people inside baseball a little bit. You might do this with Game of Thrones, right? You might do this with a big ending, a big surprise ending of some kind.
- [17:40]
Joanna Robinson
They don't even do it with Game of Thrones like they used to do it. I would say that they used to do it with Game of Thrones. They didn't give out screeners at all for the last couple seasons. Or Better Call Saul is one where they held back or something like that. So there's a few exceptions, but for the most part these days, the networks and the streaming companies need the press a bit more than they used to, just to get the word of, just to permeate in the media landscape. And so I'm seeing less of a, like, you can't have these episodes from streamers than I. Than I used to, like, 10 years ago. And so I was just like. I wasn't upset about it. I was just, like, quite surprised because I was like, we all know there's a plane Crash. So then I was, you know, it set my wheels turning. I was like, okay, are they. Are they just, like, worried about how people are going to respond to crash? And, you know, in that interview, Nina and Brad, the producers, did say, like, oh, yeah, we're braced. You know, the Kennedy family is not gonna be happy about this.
- [18:38]
Rob Mahoney
No.
- [18:39]
Joanna Robinson
But for all of the conversations that the show has taken us behind closed doors to conversations we couldn't possibly know the content of, we certainly could not possibly know what the conversation was like inside of that plane. Right. Because it's just those three people, and those three people did not make it out of that plane crash alive. So they really have to figure out how they want to tell that if they even want to take us into that cockpit, how long do they want to put us in there and what do they want to show us? And what we do know is sort of the recap that we get the spatial disorientation diagnosis. Like, that is the accepted diagnosis of what happened in this flight. That John, who was not a super, super, super experienced flyer, there was haze, there was darkness. Other people who were flying that night described it, described the conditions. Spatial disorientation, which is something I had never heard of, is like, you know, they describe it really well in the show. It's like going under a wave. You just, like, lose your sense. And I think they did a really good job with him. But the question, and we were talking about this a little bit before we started recording, but, like, the question is of Lauren and Carolyn inside of that moment, because both Lauren in the backseat and Carolyn here in the front seat with him are like experiences sort of like Zen, just breathe. Reaction to it, which, you know, is definitely certainly a choice. What do you make of that as like, a decision to interpret how they would have responded? Does it sit well with you? What do you think?
- [20:12]
Rob Mahoney
I think part of the reason why it sits okay with me, I'm not thrilled. I'm not thrilled, frankly, about anything in terms of that scene and what's going on in the cockpit. And I think some of that is by design. Because we've been talking about this show, Joe, and the way it's drawn and the way it's written and the way it's structured. And I think we need to acknowledge, for some people, the entire premise of making a show like this is disgusting. Taking real life tragedy, dramatizing it to a degree that, for me personally, like, I don't mind a fictional, Like a lightly to medium fictionalized version of a person to create a Different portrayal of a character, of a real life person. Like, I'm totally cool with it. I think even for someone like me, taking us into the cockpit and having them say anything big or important in what would be the final moments of their lives would feel, like, really distasteful. And so then you're, you're. You're again caught in this conundrum of like, are we going to show this at all? Which I do think in the experience of watching it, the sort of like, meta tension of, are they actually going to show this plane go down? Are they actually going to show a collision, an explosion? Are we going to see these people die on screen? I think it puts viewers in a really odd spot, and not necessarily a bad one, but one that also might contribute to them withholding, just to make sure no one knows going in what they're walking into with this episode. And then once you have that meta tension, how do you resolve it in a way that doesn't feel gross? I really don't know what they were supposed to do there.
- [21:45]
Joanna Robinson
Yeah, I mean, the option is to just not show them, you know, show them getting into the plane, but not in the cockpit at all.
- [21:54]
Rob Mahoney
But the disorientation, I do feel like not only telling us that it's like going under a wave, but feeling and seeing the lack of visibility from the plane, I do think it really does kind of anchor you in that sort of panic. But then when the characters aren't responding with panic, I think that's where you're getting that sort of dissociation you're mentioning.
- [22:15]
Joanna Robinson
I think it's interesting that this description they have inside of the episode, spatial disorientation based on your impaired brain rather than your reality being taken under by a wave showing, you know, Paul Kelly's performance as John in that moment. We're watching, like, sort of this crinkled brow, this like, almost like, you know, head empty, no thoughts, sort of like, you know, we've talked about the way in which John is, you know, the hunk flunk. Sort of like this kind of dummy performance to a certain degree. I wish, you know, for all of us saying, they just went and said the thing. I wish they had tied that in a way that made better sense to me inside of the themes of John and his. I mean, it's there inside of the show, this idea, like, based on your impaired brain rather than your reality. And Carolyn constantly saying, like, you're the way in which privilege has inoculated you from the world. Your experience with the paparazzi is different from my experience with the paparazzi. Your experience at Hyannis Port is different from my experience at Hyannis Port. You have gone through life expecting that people, things will work out for you, and so they have. And so there is a way in which the show is sort of laid track for, like, that's his demise. Right. His demise is he's unable to actually connect with reality. And he's in that cockpit in the first place because he thinks he can do something that he is actually not fully trained to do. So all of that is in the text of the show. I just wish I didn't get. I didn't emotionally connect to that. Like, oh, no, here it is. This like, tragic flaw inside of this person. Taking. Not only taking him down, but taking these two women down with him.
- [24:03]
Rob Mahoney
Yes.
- [24:04]
Joanna Robinson
I don't feel like they really sort of made that a character beat as much as I wanted it to be. It felt more circumstantial inside of the moment. Do you know what I mean?
- [24:13]
Rob Mahoney
I completely agree with you. I think a lot of those moments in the plane feel so tepid in a way that, yeah, you're waiting for some reaction, some response in either direction, whether it's misplaced certainty or outright panic, but like, you never really get to any of those notes. I do just think this is one of those areas though, where I wonder if they got a little squeamish about putting thoughts into those characters heads in that moment. And it is as simple as that of like, in theory, I agree with you. If these were totally fictional characters tying a story beat to. To the way that they ultimately pass and like the decisions they make leading up to it? That's good storytelling. Can you do that here? And frankly, like, do you have the guts to do it with a story that means this much to so many people? It's. It's a lot. It's a lot to ask and it's a lot to put out there, I think.
- [25:02]
Joanna Robinson
Yes. But on the other hand, like, we were talking about this last week, like anytime you've seen a Diana story happen, like her death, you know, and they talked about this a lot in the Crown when they finally like, did Diana, the Diana death sort of moment inside of the Crown where they were like, we didn't want to go into that tunnel with them, so we didn't go into the tunnel. Like, we followed them up until the tunnel and then we were like, we're not gonna go into there, you know, and we're not gonna show you what the Final moments were inside of the car. We're gonna show you a bit, but we're not gonna show you like it. So, like, there are ways in which, you know, the Crown got squeamish about this thing that they had to do, but there are also ways in which that story. The hunting of the. You know, the hunting of Diana. That is such a clear. Like, this is the narrative we've been spinning so far. My brain's slightly. Please forgive me. Survivor cooked right now. But, like, while watching. Sorry. So sorry to take us on a left turn to Survivor. But, like, watching Survivor 50 is an exercise in watching reality TV editing. Because every episode of Survivor, someone, Their game is over. And so it is the job of the editors to show you what are the fatal mistakes that they made along the way. So, like, we as viewers are watching episodes in advance. You start sort of tracking these narratives, and you're like, what? You know, what are they trying to show us? Stakes are obviously incredibly different on Survivor versus this. But, like, tying these final moments of Carolyn just saying, like, just breathe back to John showing up at her apartment earlier in the season, panicking about his mother's death and her that moment of their beginning of their relationship. Real beginning of their relationship, not their first date, but the. Just sort of like, just breathe. Him trying to kiss her. Her being like, what are you doing? Not like this. Slow down, slow down. That's the sort of attempted close of another loop that they tried to do here. But again, I. I think I'm with you. Where I just felt like wrong being in the cockpit at all with them. You know, I don't think there was any waiting for trying for them here.
- [27:01]
Rob Mahoney
You know, I think it made Visen better off if we did not to rewrite the show, but if we had cut off at a different point in terms of our access to those characters, in part because of the potential culpability involved, right? Like, the plane goes down in part because Jon is not equipped to fly it in that moment. And this is, to me, the biggest difference with the Diana story, Right? Like, there is a level of, you don't want to go in the tunnel with Diana just because of how horrible it is and turns out. But she is the victim, like, purely the victim of those circumstances. John is, at minimum, a participant in his own death and the killing of these two women, or the death of these two women, I should say, which I think just makes the whole exercise that much murkier and that much messier in terms of unpacking exactly what these characters are going through in that second. But if you're gonna make the show, you have to be ready to wrestle with those things. And so those objections, like the problems that we're having, those are the arguments you raised before you even pick up
- [27:58]
Joanna Robinson
this show in the first place, right?
- [27:59]
Rob Mahoney
Maybe when you're cracking the story in the first place, but if it's all here in the finale and it's not delivering on, again, the one thing you have to get right, it's hard to not hold that against the show.
- [28:09]
Joanna Robinson
I've been thinking a lot about American Crime Story, the OJ Season. Just the very best version of what they've done here. And especially with things like. And talking inside this episode about how she wished, you know, the world had better understood her daughter. The extremely sexist, sort of like, it was her vanity, it was her manicure that caused the crash or whatever the case may be, you know, versus the much, I actually think, subtler way that the OJ Season took a character, a person like Marcia Clark, as portrayed by Sarah Paulson, and just showed us, didn't tell us, but just showed us the extremely nasty sexist tabloid coverage of her as a person inside when she is, like, you know, the avenging angel of this story and is painted in this way. But also, that show had a really hard needle to thread because of the O.J. case. We're not gonna, like, show the murder. We're not gonna say one way or another whether he did it, because we can't say that. So we can only tell you a story where you have to draw your own conclusions about what actually happened there. Again, because, you know, a man and a woman died and, you know, a family is devastated and a nation is enthralled. But like all of these stories, American crime stories, this, which is essentially an American crime story, even though it's positioned as a love story, its job is also to hold a mirror up to us as sort of like, why do we have these ghoulish fascinations? Why do we have these. Like, when you watch the crowd of people outside of John and Carolyn's apartment and their sort of, like, ecstasy of grief, you know what I mean? This just sort of, like what it means for us psychologically to just sort of, like, marinate in this public deification or grief and all this sort of stuff like that. And then Caroline as this, like, singular, actually emotionally affected person walking, like, parting that crowd and walking through it, I thought that image was really, again, a dialogue less moment. That image was, like, really potent inside of this episode.
- [30:28]
Rob Mahoney
And I think this is why overall, the decision for this season to focus so much more on Carolyn as opposed to even the internal thoughts and feelings of Jon, I think pays off in huge ways throughout the season and including in those ideas. Right. If you're gonna show a mirror, if you're gonna hold up a mirror to us and ask us to interrogate tabloid culture and why we're interested in cases and deaths like this and why not just there's this crowd of people outside their apartment, but it's almost like one crowd has been substituted for another of like the paparazzi was there and now it's these mourners and it's still just a big crowd of people out there.
- [31:02]
Joanna Robinson
Yeah.
- [31:03]
Rob Mahoney
And Carolyn is the one who has to reckon with all of those differences in her life. For John, these are just facts. Right. Like the paparazzi will follow him wherever he goes. Carolyn is the one who is affected on a psychological level to the point that she becomes a shut in. To the point that she's second guessing herself, that she is picking a new color for her nails at the salon to fit in because she doesn't want to be too ostentatious. It's like she is the avatar for so much of what we're meant to take away and interrogate within the show. And if you're gonna pick a character to do it and an actor to do it, like Sarah Pigeon delivered on all of that stuff at a really high level. I wish the rest of the show kind of was up to it, but I don't know that it always was.
- [31:43]
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- [32:50]
Rob Mahoney
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- [33:05]
Joanna Robinson
on a sidebar. I'm sure you did, because you're a person alive who looks at the Internet sometimes. You saw the photos this week of the Rock and the Moana live, right? Okay. And so, like, the way I actually
- [33:18]
Rob Mahoney
had multiple people in my life, if I have heard from you about the Rock wig watch.
- [33:23]
Joanna Robinson
Yeah, I heard from our pals Nora and Jodi about it. Like, you know, about my, like, expert take on the wig watch of the Rock. But. But it got, you know, something. I think that it was like. I think something that Nora. Nora Princioti, I think said to me is like, she was like, wigs have both gotten, like, much, much better. And then also they're either way, way worse or much, much better. And there's no, like, sort of like, it's kind of fine middle ground anymore. And so I was thinking about Carolyn Bissett inside of this, about Sarah Pidgeon, because, like, Sarah Pigeon is a woman with dark. Her hair was such, like, a supporting character in the season. Not just the way that she was constantly, like, flipping around and playing with it.
- [34:04]
Rob Mahoney
I mean, one of the great hair flippers of all time. Let's just put it out there.
- [34:08]
Joanna Robinson
I really agree. But also the way in which, like, she goes from this, like, sort of dirty blonde color to this, like, flat ironed, platinum. Platinum blonde, sort of like Grace Kelly manicured Barbie look, which is what Carolyn Kenny. Carolyn Bessette Kenny also did in her life, of course. So I was like. I was like, was that. I was like, what was a wig? And what wasn't was, like, something I was cur. I was like, surely this exists somewhere. They put her in this wig as. Cause I was like, when they. When they showed us the manicure scene again, I was like, that's a wig. I was like, that is a wig. And so what I found out is that they had put out a photo of her in that wig, and the Internet did not like it. And so they were like, oh, no, we're gonna have a problem. Her hair is so iconic. So what they did for sort of the rest of the show is they. And Rob, forgive me for taking you so deep on this, but no joke, keep going.
- [35:06]
Rob Mahoney
What else do we have? How deep can we go?
- [35:08]
Joanna Robinson
They put 400k tip extensions in her hair. So they used her natural hair. They dyed it blonder, but they put 400 individual extensions in her hair, which would have taken just an unfathomable amount of time.
- [35:27]
Rob Mahoney
That's like a Frankenstein level costume commitment.
- [35:30]
Joanna Robinson
That's so like. So they wanted to like zhuzh up her hair and make it look like, you know, and they did. Like, I was obsessed with watching her hair and. But it's also kind of her natural hair, so she can like flip it around. Her hairline looks real, but there's like 400 extra strands that they individually placed inside of there. And so. But like, to go back to this sort of like leaning into Paul Kelly as this sort of like empty suit depiction of JFK Jr. Leaning into her hair, being like this natural part of who this physical woman is versus this like wig that looks kind of wiggy on top of her in these final moments is like a great sort of meta, you know, way to tell this story of this woman who becomes a Barbie, you know, at the end of the day.
- [36:19]
Rob Mahoney
It's so true. I mean, yeah, it does kind of complete the look and complete the picture. I just keep coming back to Paul Kelly though. Like I. The. The chemistry is so real and very palpable and I think there are obviously scenes and extended stretches of the season that really, really clicked for me because of the magic between them as performers. I left this episode wondering though, because I feel like he's just kind of overexposed over the course of the season. If this had been a movie instead of a limited series, and it's a two hour runtime in which he is JFK Jr. And yeah, he has some monologues and some big reactions that maybe he delivers well or he doesn't, whatever it may be. But would just the pure volume of it feel more manageable and feel like something that fits within the context of the movie better as opposed to what we get on screen? What do you think of that idea?
- [37:09]
Joanna Robinson
Love it. I had a similar idea, but it was just that this season should have been shorter. This season should have been six episodes max is what I think. And I think that would have helped solve the problem. I also think a lot of things should be movies instead of limited series these days. So I'm not objecting to it at all.
- [37:24]
Rob Mahoney
But let's not take away from our livelihood. You know, we need a good number of limited series. So, like, let's keep things going through the machine.
- [37:32]
Joanna Robinson
But prestige movie Podcast. That's true. But yeah, I think also, like, it really clicked something for me when I found out that like, he was such a last minute ditch casting effort for them that they like did not. They had their other actors and they did not have a John and they. And they finally cast him. I was thinking a lot in this final episode of like, what if they had cast someone who looked less like him but just was a better actor, you know what I mean? And just sort of like sacrifice that sort of like facsimile attempt for someone who could better match Sarah Pidgeon's ability. Cause if you think about someone like, I mean, you know, I go back to the crown and it's just sort of like Josh o' Connor both does and doesn't at all look like a younger Prince Charles. But Josh o' Connor as young Prince Charles is like one of the best things I've ever seen on television. And I think it's like more important to get that performance than it is, especially if you're doing what you said, which is taking dramatic liberties with a real person. You're not giving us a documentary. You're giving us the framework of a story we know. And then you have written these behind the scenes moments or tried to make larger character arcs that are tidier than an actual human character arc would be for the sake of the drama. I support all of that. Then I think you can get a little like loose with who you put in that role. And especially we talked about this with the trap American crime story eventually fell into, which is like, you really don't need to put prosthetics on these people. You really don't need to SNL any of this stuff. So I think, you know Paul Kelly, who looks so much like JFK Jr. Or a young Richard Gere, but then you think about like what a young Richard Gere would do with this role and you're like, fuck, that's just like in the stratosphere of a better show than the one we got.
- [39:29]
Rob Mahoney
So it would have been something else. I mean, I think first of all, like, I don't blame anybody who would be in the room with Paul Kelly at any point or seeing him on like a test. Like, the magnetism that that man must have in a room has to be incredibly powerful. And I do think he pulls off a lot of this part, just not the parts that would really elevate it into being like an all time thing you would return to over and over. And the contrast point, I'm glad you brought up The Crown. Because something that I was reminded of in the first episodes of this show was one of my favorite parts of the Crown, which is the Princess Margaret Tony meeting of Matthew Goode, Vanessa Kirby and how charged that episode is. I mean, holy shit, just smoldering stuff. Matthew Goode does not look like Anthony Armstrong Jones basically at all, as far as I can tell. Like, no resemblance whatsoever. But to your point, is one of my favorite working performers and is so compelling on screen. I think you raise a great idea of like, this might have been a case where you accept some of the trade offs. Someone who's like, also very handsome, but handsome in a different way or has a different kind of energy, I think might have also worked here.
- [40:38]
Joanna Robinson
And I think you would have posed, you know, you're like, not to rewrite the show, but I'm like, not to recast the show, but I think it would have. What else do we do with the ringer, honestly? But like I said that it. I think that it would have posed a lot of problems for them initially because they got a lot of shit from the Internet at large anyway for like, she doesn't look enough like Carolyn. She's not as stylish as Carolyn. There was all of this pushback of the set photos and Nina and Brad talked about this in the interview where they're like, oh, ho, ho, how the tables have turned. Everyone thought we were doing a shit job, but now people are putting kangal hats on their dogs. Like, you know, we've really done. We really did it. So, like, and I love. I love Nina and Brad, so I love that for them. But, like, I do think they would have gotten a bunch of like, what the fuck do you mean? You've cast this person as JFK Jr. He doesn't look like him at all. But then if the performance is, you know, outstanding, then I think it quiets all of those initial questions that has happened time and time and again with casting. So, um, it would have. It would have caused more problems for them up front, but I think would have paid off better dividends. But, like, you know, they're sitting here with a very successful show. So they're like, what the fuck's going on? Rob and Joanna, I don't know. So, yeah, I think a lot of
- [41:47]
Rob Mahoney
what we're hitting, in my experience watching this season, is like the first couple episodes. I think Sarah Pidgeon and Paul Kelly and really the execution of the show made a lot of this stuff look really easy. The set design is so good. The period stuff is so great. We talked about the soundtrack. Their chemistry clicks right out of the gate. At least did for me. And then the deeper you go into the season, you realize, oh, this is really hard to pull off. Like, this is gonna be really hard to wrap up in a way that feels complete and substantive and fair to the people involved and also delivers on the promise of giving us a fuller portrait of the, Like, a version of these characters that's been refracted through memoir and time and our understanding of these people. But it's like, I don't know how you do all that. I keep coming back to it over and over, but I think this show might have just been an impossible task and they took a stab at it and sometimes were successful and sometimes weren't.
- [42:37]
Joanna Robinson
I think one thing that really did, I mean, Sarah I think is solid, rock solid throughout, but I think really did Paul a favor in the first couple episodes is, like, how I still think the worst part of the season is Naomi Watts as Jackie. Oh, I think that was, like, genuinely, like, terrible performance from an actress. I love an all timer.
- [42:56]
Rob Mahoney
Like, it's. And she has some of these. This is not the only one. Naomi Watts, like, she takes some swings. We respect it. I respect the ambition of what she often tries to do. This one did not work at all,
- [43:09]
Joanna Robinson
but I thought she was so bad. We love and respect.
- [43:13]
Rob Mahoney
I think we can call it. Yeah, call it what it is that
- [43:16]
Joanna Robinson
I was like, well, as soon as Jackie's gone, this show is just gonna get a lot better. I think that's what I thought. I was just like.
- [43:22]
Rob Mahoney
And, well, that's what all John's girlfriends thought too, apparently.
- [43:26]
Joanna Robinson
Daryl Hannah certainly hoped that, but. Yeah, but then her absence then made me focus closer on Paul's performance, which then sort of started to feel thinner for me. All right, anything else you want to say about this episode before we get to this little side quest? I've decided we should go on inside of this podcast.
- [43:44]
Rob Mahoney
I want to give one little shout out before we move on, Jo, to the scoring for this show. Like the central theme.
- [43:51]
Joanna Robinson
The theme is so good.
- [43:52]
Rob Mahoney
It's so good. And I think over the course of the show proved to be just incredibly versatile, where you change the key a little bit, you slow it down, you speed it up, you layer it with other sound in kind of the soundscape. And all of a sudden, it can be first date music. Meet cute music. It can be like, your mother just died music. It can be, we're at the funeral for John and Carolyn music. Somehow the fact that that core melody could play on all those situations. I mean, Bryce Desner from the national scored this show, I just think did a pretty amazing job with it.
- [44:21]
Joanna Robinson
It was so good in those first couple of episodes. It was so remarkably good in that it felt immediately recognizable. I'm historically kind of terrible at. In shows like Game of Thrones, those composers will compose individual character themes that will come up again and again, and I am kind of historically terrible at identifying them. I have friends who could be like, oh, my God, did you hear how they blended Brienne's theme with Jaime's theme? And I'm like, no, I didn't. I could not tell. I was, like, deaf to that kind of stuff. But the theme for this show was so immediately, like, memorable that I was like, did they steal? I was like, is this lifted from something else?
- [45:03]
Rob Mahoney
Yeah. Did they pull it?
- [45:04]
Joanna Robinson
Yeah. I was like, is this. You know, did they do what they were doing the 90s and put, like, the theme to Stargate in every single movie trailer? And you're just like, hell, yeah, I feel it.
- [45:12]
Rob Mahoney
But I love. How did you ever see that show, the Adventures of Briscoe county junior? Do you know what I'm talking about?
- [45:17]
Joanna Robinson
I think you know I did, Rob. I think you know, of course I did.
- [45:21]
Rob Mahoney
I'm glad that you did, in part because the theme from that show just became like, the theme for the Olympics somehow over time, it's like, the way this stuff gets repurposed is truly remarkable.
- [45:30]
Joanna Robinson
Right. But this one, this is distinct. Yeah, they really nailed it with that. Okay. The side quest that I proposed to you late last night after I watched this episode was I thought Constance Zimmer not only stole this episode, but kind of stole the entire series for me, to a certain degree. But more than anything, Constant Zimmer shows up early in the season, and I was like, oh, they got Constance Zimmer to, like, play her mom. Okay, that's interesting. What an incredible actress to be in kind of, like, a thankless role. And then she had, like, this speech to give at the. At the wedding, and I was like, okay, I can kind of see why Constance is here. But the way that she just, like, put her hand on the throat of the show for the last, like, half of this episode, I was like, this is why you hire Constance Zimmer. We're still confused by Donna Log is here as Teddy Kennedy.
- [46:23]
Rob Mahoney
I think he's confused why he's here in some of these scenes.
- [46:25]
Joanna Robinson
I have to imagine there's something cut like, I have to imagine there was More for him to do that they cut out. I really have to imagine that. But I'm like, okay, I get it. I get why Constance is here. Also, in reading some of the behind the scenes stuff, it's clear, as is the case with most older versions of TV shows, they were writing as they were going. So that's not always the case with a limited series. Oftentimes a limited series is fully written before you start shooting because the episode ask is shorter and the way things get greenlit these days, blah, blah. That's not the case with this because Sarah Pigeon has talked about, like, oh, we were shooting episode seven and then we got the script to episode eight, so they hadn't seen all the scripts. And Nina and Brad were talking in that Vanny Ferrer interview about how sometimes you understand over the course of a season what your supporting actors can do. That is something that they said basically in giving the answer about Anne and Caroline in this episode. And so I really think they were like, hell, we got constant simmer. Let's use constant simmer. That's what it feels like like to me.
- [47:27]
Rob Mahoney
So my only question about that, Jo, is like, have you not seen Unreal? You know, like, are you not familiar with her work?
- [47:33]
Joanna Robinson
Did you not already know? So the exercise I proposed to you was let's come up with a loose list of so that's why they cast that person in that role kind of performance or like TV closers or something like that, which was like a nebulous prompt. We might come up with some answers that don't like to. Again, this was like a late last night ask. But what did you come up with to answer that? You want to start with Rob?
- [48:02]
Rob Mahoney
Yeah, I've got a pretty long list. I think I'm going to start with one we can both agree on, which is Fiona Shaw in Andor, where Fiona Shaw shows up and it's like, love, Fiona Shaw. Okay, I'm glad she's here. And then, yeah, when it comes, hologram monologue time. Yeah, we're fucking cooking, Joe. Like, we are absolutely cooking. And counterpoint because of the flip experience Fiona Shaw in True Detective Night country, where I was waiting for this moment, I was waiting for the why is Fiona Shaw here? Moment. And it just never came.
- [48:32]
Joanna Robinson
It's interesting because, like this, this particular exercise is really for the sickos who spend too much time watching film and television. Because, like, you know, I don't know that the gen pop is out there being like constant zimmer. But again, but if you know, you know, if you Know. You know. Yeah. This is for the ball knowers, I guess. So, like I will say something very recent. I don't think you watched it, but we did cover on this feed in Death by Lightning, the John Garfield show. So much was made of the cast of that show. An incredible cast inside of that show. But Betty Gilpin is there playing Lucretia Garfield playing the wife character. And this is an answer I came up with a couple different times where I'm just sort of like, why is Betty Gilpin here? Betty Gilpin, who is just incredible in everything that she does. Why is she here as, like, the wife? But then, spoiler alert for history. John Garfield dies. And it's a very similar role where, like, she then becomes the emotional fulcrum for the final episode of the show. And I was like, ah, that's why Betty Gilpin is here playing Lucretia Garfield.
- [49:35]
Rob Mahoney
Lucretia Garfield is an amazing name, though. If it was just. Just on the sides alone, I might take that part.
- [49:40]
Joanna Robinson
And he called her. I think he called it Crete. I think that was her nickname, which was his name. Okay. No, Crete you hate it. Okay. I think that was her.
- [49:46]
Rob Mahoney
James, come on.
- [49:48]
Joanna Robinson
I could be wrong. Anyway, that's Betty Gilbert and Death by Lightning. That's one of my answers. What else you got?
- [49:52]
Rob Mahoney
I think that's a great one. Where do I want to go next? How about Jake Johnson and Cristin Miliotti in Mythic Quest, which, if you're familiar with Mythic Quest, all of the standalone episodes are among the best of the series. But it's very much like, wait, what? Why are these people on this random Apple TV show about game design doing a plot that seems to have nothing to do with anything else that's happening? Fast forward an hour later, and I am a fucking wreck. I am in pieces.
- [50:22]
Joanna Robinson
That's one of the best episodes of television that has, like, ever existed.
- [50:25]
Rob Mahoney
It's really, really good.
- [50:26]
Joanna Robinson
I was trying to figure out a place to put Crista Emilioti on this list because, you know, like, would I do it for Fargo or the Penguin or Black Mirror or How I Met yout Mother? For that?
- [50:37]
Rob Mahoney
I was about to say, yeah, that's a different model. Cause it was like an introduction. But you became very clear very quickly, like, oh, this is why they cast her.
- [50:45]
Joanna Robinson
Yeah, she's one of those actors. I would definitely call her a TV closer, a term I've just made up. But similarly to that Mythic Quest answer, I would say Nick Offerman and Murray Bartlett, who are like, why are you here? For one episode of the Last of Us, playing characters inside the video game who are just not even on screen, but barely on screen via letters, known via letters. And it's like, oh, Then you watch long, long time, and you're like, oh, shit. And then Nick Offerman wins an Emmy and Murray Bartlett gets nominated for an Emmy, and probably they should have split that Emmy between them. And it's just an incredible hour of television. You're like, ah, that's why Nick Offerman and Murray Bartlett are here.
- [51:23]
Rob Mahoney
I have a couple more Joe that, like, I don't want to say too much about, because talking too much about it would be a spoiler, in a sense, for a lot of what happens in these shows.
- [51:32]
Joanna Robinson
I have twist ones too. Okay, what do you have?
- [51:35]
Rob Mahoney
So Yahya Abdul Mateen and Watchmen.
- [51:37]
Joanna Robinson
Watchmen, that's on my list, 100% check.
- [51:40]
Rob Mahoney
Christian Slater and Mr. Robot, I think is a show we don't talk about a lot, but very clear, very quickly why he's on that show. And also Ted Danson on the Good Place where, like, Ted Danson will just take a random sitcom role now and again, but you can tell when he's really got something to work with. And that show really gives him a lot to work with.
- [51:58]
Joanna Robinson
Bless you for not wanting to spoil Watchmen, a show that came out in 2019.
- [52:02]
Rob Mahoney
We try.
- [52:03]
Joanna Robinson
Love that about you. On a similar note, I mean, we're both weeded heads. You watched Dollhouse, right? I did Alan Tudyk on Dollhouse. That is also a, like, a twist that I don't necessarily. But, like, that is just sort of like, what is Alan Tudyk doing here?
- [52:17]
Rob Mahoney
I know.
- [52:17]
Joanna Robinson
And then you're like, you should know.
- [52:19]
Rob Mahoney
He's a leaf on the wind. He's always got something cooking up.
- [52:21]
Joanna Robinson
I see why Alan Tudyk is in this episode of Dollhouse.
- [52:24]
Rob Mahoney
So Amy Acker also, I think similarly on Dollhouse, there's a lot of, like, that's another one where it's like, if you are plugged into the very particular frequency and troop casting of like, a weed inverse, like, property, and you see the familiar faces pop up and you're like, that's weird that this person is here and they just don't have a lot to do. And then come the penultimate episode, they're given, like, a huge moment.
- [52:46]
Joanna Robinson
Who else do you want to highlight here?
- [52:48]
Rob Mahoney
How about Regina King for the Leftovers as well, where it's like, that's another part that on first blush, it's like, what is this? Like, why would Regina King be on a show like this. What place is she going to go with this character that seems, on surface, like, kind of bland and then turns into one of my favorite characters in television history. And one of the great performances because it's Regina King.
- [53:12]
Joanna Robinson
I had a similar. She's so good. This is another, like, sort of like. It wasn't obscure Baldover, but it was like. I remember I was podcasting about Breaking Bad and Jesse Plemons shows up in later seasons, and I was like, they got Landry. But I was. The person I was podcasting with had not watched Friday Night Lights, so he was sort of like. He was just like, oh, yeah, this guy's here and he's playing Todd, who's just like, this kind of. This guy who's here. And I was like, yeah, but it's Jesse Plebin, so, like, it's got to mean something. And then he had. This character has a real turn on that show, and you're like, that's why. That's why you get Landry over here. Jesse Plemons on Breaking Bad, that was like a. That was a real, like. And it happens a lot in podcasting, I think, because you're just sort of like, you, like, really early in a season, you'll, like, tab someone and you'll, like, tap an actor, and you're like, why is this person here? It has to mean something. That's the sort of, like, Law and Order spoiler casting idea, right? Where it's just sort of like you have to be the murderer or a huge red herring to put this person inside of this episode, so they're just
- [54:17]
Rob Mahoney
too notable at a certain point. I think that's kind of the two categories, right? There's the actors, you know, and feel overqualified for the material they're given, right? And then there's sort of the characters that are just sort of lingering around and kind of have stuff to do, but it's never that notable or interesting until all of a sudden it pops and you see what makes that performer really special. I think for that latter category, I also want to shout out Brad Dourif in Deadwood, where Doc Cochran is a nice supporting character. And then there's a plotline late in season one where Deadwood is like this emerging frontier town, and the minister of this frontier town gets a brain tumor and is not only dying, but in extraordinary pain. And Doc Cochran, the one doctor in town played by Brad Derf, has this incredible pleading with God monologue to kill, like, please let this man die. Mercifully, that is. I mean, wrecks me every time I see it. I don't know what it is about me or my Catholic upbringing that gravitates toward these, like, men yelling at God monologues. But here I am yet again on this podcast telling people to watch, in this case, Deadwood.
- [55:18]
Joanna Robinson
It's really interesting because in the case of Brad Durif, there is this, you know, because he's like an Oscar nominated actor, right? But there is this question of, like, okay, but is it a point in his career where, like, this is the best Brad Dourif can get at this point in his career? Has he been forgotten and dead was like, we didn't forget. We know what Brad Dourif can do, so we're gonna let him cook. But you're gonna have to wait a minute to get there. Did you have anyone from West Wing? Because, like, West Wing has so many notable guest stars. But I didn't know if that really was the same, if like, a John Goodman or a Glenn Close shows up, you know, for like, a couple episodes, and you're like, I always kind of knew why John Goodman or Glenn Close was here or something like that. Did you have any. Something like that?
- [55:57]
Rob Mahoney
That almost felt like a different thing to me because it's like, John Goodman's not really on the show until he's on the show. And so it's like that is kind of his emergence. And so there's no moment of wondering, like, why is John Goodman delivering these random lines that any other actor could deliver because of the way he enters it. But you're right, there are a lot of guest stars. I just think it might be, like,
- [56:16]
Joanna Robinson
a slightly different categorization on this very nebulous idea that I came up with last night.
- [56:21]
Rob Mahoney
That's what we do around here.
- [56:22]
Joanna Robinson
I would add, oh, yeah, Carol Burnett in the final season of Better Call Saul.
- [56:28]
Rob Mahoney
Oh, sure.
- [56:29]
Joanna Robinson
Like, when they talked about casting her, they were like, well, why wouldn't you take the opportunity to work with Carol Burnett in Better Call Saul? But she plays this sort of, like, doddering older woman. And the entire show, Saul Goodman, Jimmy McGill, has had this way with older folks, older women particularly. But then she, like, she has such a, like, climactic, pivotal impression, important role to play in the end of that story. But at first you're just sort of like, oh, did they just want to hang out with Carol Burnett so they got her to play this? Like, wouldn't you? Yeah, I sure would. I sure would. What else do you have on your list?
- [57:08]
Rob Mahoney
I have one final one, and it's one that we covered on this feed relatively recently, which is when Sam Rockwell shows up in White Lotus Season 3, which the reason he's on the show, I would assume, is just because Leslie Bibb is on the show. That's an easy end, you know. You know, a guy who knows a guy, all of a sudden, Sam Rockwell's on your show. But, yeah, like, he doesn't just show up to show up. He's given some rather meaty material, if you'll allow it. And I just think that there's a lot there for people like us to unpack, but also to kind of wait for and deliver on a moment like that.
- [57:39]
Joanna Robinson
Meaty material is where you decided to go.
- [57:44]
Rob Mahoney
It wasn't planned. It just kind of came out that way.
- [57:46]
Joanna Robinson
All right, I will wrap up with this year's Oscar winner for Best actress, Jessie Buckley on Chernobyl. Specifically, I think, oh, yeah, at that point, I had seen her in Wild Rose and War and Peace, and she's so good in Wild Rose.
- [58:01]
Rob Mahoney
I love Wild Rose.
- [58:03]
Joanna Robinson
And I'd seen her, she did a live performance of the music from Wild Rose at South by, and I was just like, this person is so incredible. And then she shows up in Chernobyl, a completely stacked, incredible cast of incredible veteran actors. And I was just like, oh, she's new. Ish. She's young. They've just cast her here to play this wife character. But then the character that she plays, Lyudmila, becomes, for me, the emotional just like, stabbed me through the heart aspect part of Chernobyl. By episode three, you're just sort of like, holy shit. But that was one where I was just sort of like, is Jessie Buckley too new that she's just sort of taking whatever, an HBO show. She's very new. But they were like, no, we saw Wild Rose or like, we know what she can do. Don't worry, we're going to use her. So it's like a don't worry, we're gonna use them kind of thing.
- [58:57]
Rob Mahoney
So I'm glad that the promise with that with Constance Zimmer was delivered. I mean, when she gets her chance, I would say all of the lead up that we've already talked about in terms of, you know, her conversation with Caroline, her kind of negotiations about the remains, like, all that stuff is really powerful. Her at the funeral is something else entirely. And again, it's like it's a line reading of a poem. And so, like, it is put in a different place from the rest of the dialogue of the show. But it floors you in a way that this episode needed something like that and it needed a character and a performer like her to bring it.
- [59:29]
Joanna Robinson
And it's one of those things where, like, who, you know, we'll see if interviews, they reveal this. But like, who knows if the original intention was to have her reading sort of narrate the rest of the show or if her reading was so good that they're like, let's make this, you know, what we end with. I just thought that was really strong. And then, you know, the final shot of them like on the beach. Like the idea of, I mean, Lauren once again left out on the narrow. But the idea of burying them at sea and then like coming and they're still like in the world of the show, alive and in love and together on the beach, I did think was like a really beautiful closing image for this series.
- [60:07]
Rob Mahoney
Totally agree.
- [60:08]
Joanna Robinson
Okay, we did it. If you have any other of these, like, TV closer performances that you want to shout out prestigetvpotify.com we love, like getting your suggestions. Thank you to all the people who have watched the Pit within the last 24 hours and sent us your suggestions for cute nicknames for doing drugs while while being a sports person. We've had some really good ones already.
- [60:32]
Rob Mahoney
You know, some different stuff going on on that podcast, it turns out. I don't. It's truly hard to explain. Yeah.
- [60:38]
Joanna Robinson
We'll be back with our next episode of the Pit. And on the horizon, we are definitely covering Beef, the Netflix limited series that's dropping next month. That is something we're really, really excited for. And we'll have some other stuff coming up, but we will definitely be wrapping up the last month, I guess, of the Pit.
- [60:58]
Rob Mahoney
It never stops.
- [61:00]
Joanna Robinson
Thanks to Deb for their work on this podcast and thank you to Rob Mahoney for your devotion to love stories. And thank you to Katie Rich for launching this series with us.
- [61:14]
Rob Mahoney
Absolutely.
- [61:14]
Joanna Robinson
We will see you soon. Bye.
- [61:28]
Rob Mahoney
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