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- [00:00]
Joanna Robinson
Foreign welcome back to the Prestige TV podcast feed. I'm Joanna Robinson.
- [00:17]
Rob Mahoney
I'm Rob Mahoney.
- [00:18]
Joanna Robinson
We are here at your request, at your behest to talk about Department Q. Here we are. The listeners wrote in.
- [00:28]
Rob Mahoney
They certainly did a joke.
- [00:29]
Joanna Robinson
Where can they clamor, demand we cover certain things?
- [00:32]
Rob Mahoney
Rob Mahoney, you can clamor, demand, submit questions, give us funding for massive new undertakings in which we buy big flat screen monitors for ourselves and stock our new police headquarters@prestigetvotify.com as always, Joe, our.
- [00:47]
Joanna Robinson
Listener Ben wrote in and said this. The fits, the brogue, the wigs, the ocean, the specificity of place. I'm three episodes in and this seems like a lock for the pod. I really hope it finishes strong. Great email from Ben. Our listener Neil called it a slightly bloated descendant of slow horses, but while at the same time asking for this podcast. So here we are, couple weeks late to talk to you about Netflix's crime show Department Q. I thought we would do like a little spoiler free section at the top just to say sort of whether or not we like it, who we think this would be for and then we will get into it full, full spoilers. There's nine episodes. I don't think there's any point in us sort of doing half the pod and then getting to the finale or whatever. So we will do like a short spoiler free section and then it's just full spoilers all the way. So Rob Mahoney, having spent the last 24 hours or so with the certainly have the fine folks of the department queue. Did you like this show? Would you recommend it to our listeners?
- [01:54]
Rob Mahoney
Definitely. Really enjoyed it. I think it's just like a pretty captivating mystery show that yes, maybe is a little bloated in spots ultimately is longer than your season of Slow Horses or most of your like British crime shows that you'll run into, but manages to thread it by juggling, I don't know, four different mysteries at the same time and I think kind of throwing you off the scent just enough that I felt like I was always playing catch up in a really wonderful way.
- [02:22]
Joanna Robinson
I on the other hand, I really liked the show, had a great time with it. I think Matthew Good as Karl Mork is like a top tier TV detective I love and something I want to get into a little bit later is we talked a lot in our coverage of Friends, your Friends and Neighbors about how we were like, I don't care about all these side characters we constantly follow and that is not the case. This is already on my list to talk about. And then Chris just tweeted out on the Watch. He talked about on the Watch, but, like, every time they added a new side character, I was interested in spending time with them on this show. Like, they did a really good job fleshing out this world. This is based on a book series by a Danish writer, I believe it's pronounced Jussie Adler Olson. And you can tell it's quite bleak. I wouldn't say this is like a jaunty little detective show. This is like.
- [03:10]
Rob Mahoney
Well, it is in Scotland.
- [03:11]
Joanna Robinson
In Scotland, things are quite dreary. Like, it's very tough. It's very. There are some, like, I had someone ask me recently, like, can I watch this with my kids? I was like, no, I don't think so. Just maybe not. No, because I would say there's some, like, Silence of the Lambs level, like, almost torture porn level sort of stuff going on in a part of the plot that is just like. Nothing like explicit explicit, but just psychologically tough. I would say harrowing is a great word for it. So. So not fun for all ages, but fun for adults. Yeah. Yeah, I would say so. And, you know, I think the reason it gets comped to Slow Horses in a bunch of the emails that we got and around is A, it's, you know, a UK show, B, it's based on a series of, you know, successful novels, and C, it's sort of like a band of misfit detectives similar to Slough House. And so Horses, it doesn't have the.
- [04:14]
Rob Mahoney
Same.
- [04:16]
Joanna Robinson
Inventive cursing, you know, that sort of, like, linguistic flair that I would say Slow Horses has.
- [04:24]
Rob Mahoney
I'll say this. I did learn a lot of Scottish slang and.
- [04:27]
Joanna Robinson
Oh, did you?
- [04:28]
Rob Mahoney
It may have not have been an invention, but it was certainly new to me.
- [04:31]
Joanna Robinson
But. But it, I think, has a slightly. I would say a greater depth of character, I think, than Slow Horses has. Just because Slow Horses both are set in, you know, both of them are aiming for that procedural sort of, we could do a case every season kind of world. It's just. We talked about this a lot with Slow Horses in terms of, like, who do you go home with on this show and who do you not in this case? What we learn about the home life of all of these people feels like it's more importantly impactful on the rest of the story and woven into the larger story it's trying to tell. And so I feel more emotionally attached to a lot of these characters, definitely.
- [05:15]
Rob Mahoney
I mean, that becomes such A big structural element of the show that Carl lays out pretty explicitly. Like, there are two me's, there are these two worlds, and there is that bleed over between them. But you're right in terms of the treatment and the characterization, it's almost like all of these characters, big and small, are a River Cartwright level investment of time and plot. And some of that is like you just have more space and more time to spend with these characters as we're chasing down all of these various threads, many of which might seem very minor but become very major. Of course, by the end, you know, the yarn on the board just gets ever more bold and beautiful as we go. Certainly tangled, but I think that's such a huge element of it is having all of these characters and having all these red herrings. Like, that's what holds the show, I think, pretty taut throughout its entire run.
- [06:01]
Joanna Robinson
I have some caveats about that. Just I think so. Something that, if you haven't listened to it yet, Chris and Andy did a great interview with Scott Frank, the showrunner of the show and who also has done a million incredible. Is a screenwriter of great note. Rob and I were looking at CV and we're like, oh, he wrote all the movies we love. That's great. Also did Godless and Queen's Gambit and a bunch of other phenomenal Monsieur Spade, which I did not watch, but of course is one of CR's favorite shows.
- [06:27]
Rob Mahoney
Watchcore.
- [06:28]
Joanna Robinson
Yeah. So this is. This is a very watchcore show. CR was the one who told me to watch this, like, weeks ago. And like, every time CR tells me to watch a show and I ignore him, I usually have to end up, like, binging it at the last minute for prestige anyway, so always listen to Chris Ryan. That's. That's the lesson here, especially when it comes to UK shows. But. But, you know, something that Scott Frank has talked about in that interview and other interviews is that he wasn't interested in reinventing the detective story. It's just a. He loves a detective show, specifically a UK detective show. And so he's like, I just want to do those tropes, but do them really well. And I would give this. I had a great time with this show. I. I almost want to give it two different grades.
- [07:14]
Rob Mahoney
Okay.
- [07:14]
Joanna Robinson
To average, like, I would say, on average, it's a B plus for me. But I would say, because I would say the. The answer to the mystery is kind of a B minus for me because I felt like they were trying really hard to hide the ball in a way that I Felt like the ball was pretty obvious earlier than I think the show thought it was.
- [07:33]
Rob Mahoney
Yeah. But as is often the case with these things.
- [07:36]
Joanna Robinson
True. And then in terms of the formation of Department Q, which is this department of cold cases that is formed and the Mary band of people that are detective masses around him, his home life, crossing the line at therapy, all that sort of stuff, that's like an A, A minus to me. That is like all really, really works for me. So overall, I had a great time. Some questions on the mystery front, but everything or all the infrastructure around it is just like solid as a rock and made it really enjoyable for me to watch.
- [08:11]
Rob Mahoney
So, yeah, I would say that's one area where I think the structure of this show works pretty well, where if you are, say you do come across the answer to the big mystery early enough that it might fizzle out your enjoyment of another show. In this one, we're also trying to figure out, like this inciting incident where Carl and his partner and another officer got shot and what the circumstances are behind that. We're also delving into possible corruption. We're also trying to get to the bottom of like this family trauma involving this victim of this other case they're trying to solve. And so there's so many things happening that I feel like, again, even if you are zeroed in on, hey, that's a very conspicuous, you know, I'll omit the specific references to the clues, but there's some very specific things out there that's like, okay, yeah, I think I see where this is going, but I just want to spend time with these people and I want to spend time packing them, as usual. Joe, I want the detectives to solve themselves.
- [09:01]
Joanna Robinson
Yeah. The greatest answer to a mystery as a person. And I think that the greatest cases we're trying to solve is Karl Mork as played by Matthew Goode, who is he? But Akram Saleem, who is his main partner in the show, who is wonderful Hardy, who is his former partner, who is struggling after the incident, the inciting shooting that you were talking about, the start of the show, you know, this, this character Rose, who joins his department, like all of these people, what are they here for? What is their pain? What are they trying to figure out? All of that is incredibly interesting to me. So you're right. Anything else you want to talk about in a spoiler free way before we get into spoilers?
- [09:42]
Rob Mahoney
Well, I guess just like, let's talk about, I guess, other interest points, like if you're not sold on this show yet, to me We've talked about Slow horses. That's such an easy comp. I also think, like, if you were into Broadchurch at all, David Tennant, stubbled so that Matthew Goode could beard. Like, we're really. We're really riffing on the, like, damaged, sad boy detective.
- [10:00]
Joanna Robinson
Yeah.
- [10:01]
Rob Mahoney
You know, as you mentioned with Scott Frank, like, this is not reinventing the wheel. We're just kind of iterating on a thing that does work and can work very effectively. And so if you like that sort of moodiness and a big old mystery, and especially, I would say, if you like the unsparing wit of the greater United Kingdom, this is a series that can work really well for you. Like some of the subject matter that you're alluding to, Joe, is not just like on screen in terms of the harrowing things that are happening to characters, but in these characters backstories as well. There's a lot of really, really heavy stuff that I think if an American show tried to handle in a similar fashion, would probably fall flat on its face just because the tonal sensibility is so different. But there's something about talking about, for example, one of the characters attempting suicide previously. And it can just be handled in a way where it's like heavy and emotional and empathetic in the moment, but also later played for some laughs in a way that I think kind of works within the world of the show.
- [10:55]
Joanna Robinson
I think Broadchurch is a great comp. Happy Valley is another, like, you know, quite popular in the US show, One that I think hasn't broken as big in the US that I actually see the biggest overlap with is a show called Shetland, which, you know, is set in similarly bleak Northern Scotland era. And it's not just because Mark Banar, who plays the Lord Advocate, and Kate Dickey, who plays their supervisor, are also on Shetland. And it's not just that Matthew Good is wearing basically exactly what the lead detective in Shetland always wears, which is a nice sweater and a pair of jeans and boots. But that might just be the uniform up there. That's fine.
- [11:31]
Rob Mahoney
Yeah, Joe, the sweater budget on this show, this might be our zone. You know, we're constantly talking about, like, what. What are we covering here in Prestige tv? You know, the ringer is a big. Is a big network. Things are being covered all over the place. What is our zone? I think it might be sweater shows. I think that might be where we live.
- [11:47]
Joanna Robinson
And here's the problem, Rob, is like, we live in California, which is just like, well, Northern California, though not knitwear friendly. Necessarily, but, you know, if life could be a cozy sweater. Yeah, I think that. And Shetland is a show that I actually have like, loved and tried to, you know, preach to people. But. But all of those shows, Happy Valley, Broadchurch, Shetland, do not shy away from very, very dark things. And I would say specifically Happy Valley and something like Scott Frank's work on Queen's Gambit. Not afraid of women who are incredibly difficult, but nonetheless deserve your sympathy or empathy or, you know, are compelling and root forable but. But allowed to be assholes too. You know, that's something that he's been able to pull off in a few of his properties and I think it shouldn't be hard to do, you know, if we lived in a. In a equality in an equal utopia. But we talk so often about likability when it comes to female characters and, and we've got a character, Merit Lingard, played by Chloe Perry, and like, endlessly compelling.
- [12:59]
Rob Mahoney
Yeah.
- [12:59]
Joanna Robinson
But, you know, even the, even the bare bones Wikipedia description of her character starts with ruthless. Ruthless and ambitious.
- [13:08]
Rob Mahoney
She's quite a difficult woman, Jo, you.
- [13:10]
Joanna Robinson
Know, and, you know, so I like difficult women, so I enjoyed, I enjoyed her here. But. But that is, that is something that the show really pulls off really well. Anything else? Oh, production design wise, I will say this. Yeah, there is a set piece that I don't really necessarily want to get into because it feels like a spoiler, but there's a very, very visually stunning set that is used for a lot of this show and it is echoed by the setting for this new cold case department, which is in the basement of the police building.
- [13:50]
Rob Mahoney
Yeah, headquarters.
- [13:51]
Joanna Robinson
Headquarters. There you go. And it is supposed to be, you know, the shower quarters, the, like, there's supposed to be smelly toilets there and stuff like that. Unlike Slow Horses, this doesn't like, you can't. You're not like, oh, what a crime to be here. Beautiful greens. It almost looks like the TVA from Loki. Like the production designs. Yeah, the oranges and the greens and then these skylights that people are walking across because they're underground, meant to mirror this other set piece just gives it all this, like, heightened, almost genre, even though it's detective genre, not Loki time travel genre look to it that I. That I thought was really fun. And Queen's Gambit, I think, had a similar, like, pop sensibility to it. Yeah.
- [14:39]
Rob Mahoney
I mean, you can see the bones of that bathroom and how it could turn into an amazing office space. If anyone. If you could just clear out some of the, the urinals. You know, like, if we could only do that again. Like, part of the effect of that lighting of, like, basically getting secondhand fluorescent light from the floor above, is that you're just creating this spotlight for these characters in the middle of the floor for a lot of, like, what turns into very dynamic, bantering investigation.
- [15:04]
Joanna Robinson
Yeah.
- [15:04]
Rob Mahoney
And it's like, that is like. Of course there's like, actual boots on the ground action in this show. These are cops who are going out in the world, busting down doors with and without warrants, et cetera, et cetera, living by their own rules, but parking wherever they damn well please, Joe. That's how you know that Carl is a real rebel.
- [15:21]
Joanna Robinson
Um, yeah, acab. But here we are. Okay, so any. Anything else you want to say before we get into spoilers?
- [15:31]
Rob Mahoney
Let's get into it.
- [15:32]
Joanna Robinson
All right, let's do it.
- [15:33]
Rob Mahoney
No, seriously, stop. If you have continued this far and you have any interest in watching the show, just stop and go back. Just. There's still time. The spoilers are coming. We're going to talk about all of the fundamental mysteries of a single season of television. You have time to watch it, I promise. You do. You're busy, but you're not that busy.
- [15:51]
Joanna Robinson
You can watch it. Rob did it like a day.
- [15:53]
Rob Mahoney
Yeah. And NBA Finals are going on. You know, I believe in you.
- [15:57]
Joanna Robinson
Okay, here we go. Spoilers. But seriously, spoilers.
- [16:01]
Rob Mahoney
Yes.
- [16:03]
Joanna Robinson
Here's what I'll say. Listening to Scott Frank talk to Kristen Andy about how he was sort of like, writing this as he was going to a certain degree. I was kind of like, yeah, okay, I can see that it's based on, you know, it's based on a book. I will say this. I. Doing my prestige TV thing. I was trying to get a hold of a copy of this book so that I could do some compare, contrast and look at the. Because there's. There are movies, a series of movies set in, you know, its original language and. But you can buy us translations of the books. But my library is all out of these books. And that, I think just speaks to how popular show is right now. Yeah, the whole list is long for these books right now. So, um. But I did read a synopsis of the movie.
- [16:49]
Rob Mahoney
Yeah.
- [16:51]
Joanna Robinson
And it's. It talks about, you know, Merit Lingard, you know, trapped in this hyperbaric change chamber by a vengeful chef is. Is how it is described in. In the description of the movie I saw. And then Scott was talking about how sort of esoteric and weird it is in the book that it's like, there was a car crash and it was blamed on Merit's family because Merritt's family was happy and this other car was distracted by how happy their family was and they crashed their car. That's how Scott Frank described it. And so he basically had to come up with, yes, what's. So what's a more reasonable reason that someone would put someone in a hyperbaric chamber for four years? But here's the problem with this. The way this mystery is arranged, as far as I'm concerned, is there is no reason that anyone would put her in that chamber if they didn't have just a very long standing issue with her. So it had to be connected, like, to her childhood. It couldn't have anything to do with this mob stuff that we are embroiled with. Like, there was no, there was no. The mob would just kill her. There's no way it had anything to do with that. And so, like, I was a little frustrated by, you know, the, the red herrings that we were following because I was like, they're not connected. If, if Merritt Lingard is still alive because Akram has decided she is still alive, right? Then it has to be a long standing grudge. And so it can't be this fresh, you know, embroilment that they are following. Do you know what I mean? That was, that was like the main, my main issue with how it was constructed.
- [18:27]
Rob Mahoney
I do and I don't. I mean, why does it have to be an old world grudge to put someone in a hyperbaric chamber for four years?
- [18:34]
Joanna Robinson
For four years.
- [18:36]
Rob Mahoney
Clearly there is an investment of time involved. And so it does have to be something of a certain weight and substance. But like, I think there's enough sort of offshooting threads, and most importantly, we just don't have a clear enough vision for, I would say, the first half of the season, especially of what the threads, like, even are and where they are separate and where they are intertwining, where it's tough to tell. Like, okay, of course the things that happened decades ago, like, that's in its own category. But other than that, these other things are overlapping just enough, or at least plausibly overlapping just enough that I was able to talk myself into some other possibilities along the way. Even with, you know, the ominous wisps of hair that are just like, okay, well, it must, it simply must be this guy.
- [19:18]
Joanna Robinson
Oh, oh, the, the little proto mullet. I will, I will say this. They did give me. Actually, they did give me on that. So Sam Haig, the Journalist, yes. Being Lyle Jennings little identity swap that did get me, but that was also, like, part. But then why do we watch Lyle for, like, a million years kill the real Sam Haig? I was like, I know what happened. He killed him. Why do we have to watch the whole thing? We don't need to see the ropes in his bag. Like, I don't need to see all of that.
- [19:46]
Rob Mahoney
Do you know, that was one of the details that got me. You know, like, again, the story hinges on, I would say, a couple of leaps that you have to make. One of them is that Merritt just, like, would not recognize someone she grew up with, basically, like, the younger brother of her. Her boyfriend when she was younger, that she would not recognize him years and years later. Okay.
- [20:05]
Joanna Robinson
It's a different actor, Rob.
- [20:07]
Rob Mahoney
Well, it's a different actor. A different actor for her, too, because not only do you just recast it, you got to put the blue streak in her hair. That's how you tell the passage of time.
- [20:17]
Joanna Robinson
Rob, I have a whole lot to talk to you about wigs, but we'll come back to that.
- [20:21]
Rob Mahoney
There's a lot of hair, but so you have to buy that she would not recognize this person if she saw him and knew him intimately much later in life. That's okay. You also have to buy that some of the preliminary investigations with the original cold case or cold cases were just kind of botched. And this is one area in which I think the show does a great job of.
- [20:40]
Joanna Robinson
I agree.
- [20:40]
Rob Mahoney
Kind of throwing us off the scent of, like, how much of this is institutional? How much of this is botched on purpose? We meet and spend time with, like, the previous investigator, and we're given, like, very different impressions of him at different points in the story in a way that I think really work. But the actual murder of the actual Sam Haig, throwing him off the crag, when we see it happen, which, as you said, is not something we need to see. Like, we get it. We put it together. He's dead. That guy is dead. It's accomplished by dragging the body and leaving yards and yards of blood trail all the way to the edge of the cliff and. And then throwing him off in broad daylight.
- [21:19]
Joanna Robinson
There is a detail. The broad daylight thing is tough. There is a detail that it was heavily raining.
- [21:25]
Rob Mahoney
Oh, that's true. You're right. You're right. That's fair.
- [21:27]
Joanna Robinson
When they found the body. But also, I would say when he caves his face in with a rock.
- [21:32]
Rob Mahoney
I just feel like that's blunt force. That could be off a fall I.
- [21:36]
Joanna Robinson
Feel like the forensics department was not doing their job. If they were. Like, I don't think having your face hit with a rock several times is the same as you fell from a great height. I don't think it's the same, but I'm not a forensics expert.
- [21:51]
Rob Mahoney
Well, to your point, Joe, the forensics department in Montgomery, Alabama, on Poker Face was able to discern that this death came from a fastball that exceeded 100 miles an hour. That's what I'm saying. And here we are, not able to differentiate a dude hitting a dude with a rock versus falling off of a cliff face.
- [22:07]
Joanna Robinson
I don't understand why he couldn't have just pushed him off. Why did it have to be like, Sam came back from his climb and then thought he saw Lyle and then followed Lyle, and it was this whole thing. It was like, why isn't. Sam was out for a climb, and Lyle just pushed him off. End of story. That's so easy.
- [22:23]
Rob Mahoney
I am glad, though, that the Sam that we knew, which of course turns out to be Lyle, was not an actual investigative journalist, because his methods of convincing a source are just like, let me strip down and jump this woman.
- [22:36]
Joanna Robinson
I did text you while I was watching the show. And I was like, rob, I'm really loving this show. 0 out of 10 for journalism. And that was before I knew that we were watching a fake journalist. But I was like, what are all these? Like, it wasn't just that. It was the other journalist who basically attacks Matthew Goode's character in the newsroom. I was like, what are we doing here? This isn't, anyway, journalism. Guys, if you're thinking of becoming a journalist, this is not what journalism is. I promise you, Robin. I promise.
- [23:06]
Rob Mahoney
Well, to be fair, the lens of journalism in this movie is mostly an actual investigative journalist who somehow drives a Porsche. That's a whole separate conversation.
- [23:13]
Joanna Robinson
He's a corrupt. He's a corrupt journalist, is he not? He's like, isn't he, like, feeding information to the mob lawyer?
- [23:23]
Rob Mahoney
But was that the. That was the actual. See, this is where I'm confused. What is the actual Sam, and what is fake Sam Lyle?
- [23:30]
Joanna Robinson
Yeah, it's a great question.
- [23:31]
Rob Mahoney
I honestly don't know where one ends and the other begins. Which credit to merit. I get why she's confused.
- [23:37]
Joanna Robinson
I wasn't sure if, like, she's like, I saw you at the trial, and it's because he looks enough like. Because there's that flashback where Sam is talking to Lyle, and they bearded Lyle up so that he Looks much more like Sam than he does, certainly elsewhere. Okay. Anyway, this is getting caught in the weeds. Let's. Let's zoom back and say, I just want to shout out Matthew Good, who I've enjoyed his entire career, whether or not he's, you know, tasting wine around the world or whatever it is he's doing. I just love that he spent three seasons quite recently playing a, like, time traveling, swoony vampire. And mostly people didn't care that much with love and respect to the discovery of witches. People put a beard on him, put some salt and pepper on him, put some trauma on him, put a slight haggard on his, like, the world's most handsome face. And this is the female gaze. This is. This is it. This is. I'm just telling you, this is it.
- [24:40]
Rob Mahoney
Well, let me tell you, we're crossing lines, Joe. This is the. Everybody. I don't know how you look upon Matthew Good. And say, like, that guy doesn't have it. Like, of course he does. And he. He's had it in so many ways for so many years. But to your point, I think he's in most of the things that I've seen him in, been much more suave, much more put together.
- [24:57]
Joanna Robinson
Like, this is a different Superman mask point.
- [25:00]
Rob Mahoney
I mean, even in the crown, which, like his arrival in season two of the crown, if you have not seen it, honestly, I think you could teleport into just those episodes and they're almost like a standalone romantic experience in which you, viewer will fall in love with Matthew Good. I assure you. Like, it just will be part of your experience.
- [25:17]
Joanna Robinson
It's true.
- [25:18]
Rob Mahoney
But like, him being charming is obviously a huge part of the show works. I also think his character is enough of an asshole that he really, really needs Akram to have the balance. Like, their buddy cop dynamic is, I think, what drives so much of this. And if this were just the Karl Mork show, I think we would be talking about it very differently. I think it would get weighed down in its subject matter a lot more.
- [25:39]
Joanna Robinson
Well, I think there are multiple very clever. And again, this is where the show was an A A to me. Multiple clever ways to bolster up a character like this. There is the Akram elements, which is very important. There is the therapy element, which we'll get to in a second. And then there's Jasper, like the stepson. And what I think is so smart about that, giving the cantankerous detective, you know, someone to care about, could come off as. As transparently as, say, giving Jon Hamm's character a Sister with, you know, who needs a little bit of extra help.
- [26:24]
Rob Mahoney
Like, you know, theoretically. Theoretically.
- [26:26]
Joanna Robinson
Just in theory. Just in theory. But what works so well with the, with his stepson Jasper, who we don't find out as his stepson until a little bit later. The home, like the, the lodger who lives with him, like all of that stuff is that it's not. He does have that speech where he's like, there's two different me's, but actually like when he goes home, he's at conflict with Jack. It's not like this is the softer side of Karl Mork. There is, there is. He is the worst. He's an almost like Cumberbatchian Sherlock, arrogant, you know, asshole. But the fact that he is taking care of this kid who is not biologically his kid, whose mom just abandoned him and not just he can't get in touch with her because she visits over the course of this season tells you so much about who his character is without hitting. It's just a huge reveal of a part of who his character is. And you see that happen again with Rose or with Akram or, you know, with these various people that he is like helping without helping. Yeah. And without softening any of the tough edges that he's put up.
- [27:40]
Rob Mahoney
So I think the show parcels out that sort of like character background exposition stuff so deftly. And again, this is another reason why like it feels like you're being pulled into all these different mysteries is you're trying to figure out like, who are these people to each other? Like who are these people that Carl is living with? Is this his son? Is this his stepson? Is this just like some 20 something college age roommate who he has led into his house? Like it's not exactly clear those things until much later. And like we're obviously getting into different versions of Carl as we go. Like, or really a softening. I will say over time, this is in a really interesting way, like a very therapized show. And I don't mean that just in the sense of he is going to therapy. But there are people constantly talking about Carl's state of mental health or unhealth to him, trying to help him, trying to encourage him to be like, live a healthier life or to at least confront some of these things or God forbid, have a conversation with his son. And I think Carl's like, I'm very glad for those elements. I'm also very glad that Karl is somewhat resistant to them. And you get that tension in that character where it isn't until seven episodes in that they have the conversation. Right. Like it isn't till much later in the series that you're seeing more hard earned growth in that character. And I think that works because you open the show with this inciting incident with the, you know, getting shot in the line of duty and his, his friend and his partner getting at least temporarily paralyzed and maybe paralyzed for life. We'll have to kind of see what his, his trajectory health wise, ends up being. And the death of this other patrolman. All while Carl is doing the smart ass detective thing. Like he is, he's, he's like, he's right about the clues in the crime scene. He's very cocky and in doing so leaves him and these other two people like open to being attacked in this way now. Like, does he put more on that, more of that on himself than he probably should? Of course, this is a sad boy detective in a sad boy detective show. This is what we're doing here. But like, I think it really helps that it opens with him being like right about a lot of little things, but like kind of like wrong in a macro sense about that crime scene scene. And so then we get to sort of tear him down and see him sort of build himself back up. But the way he starts to build himself back up is just by making a big facade of a wall and pretending to be all good, obviously, and, and kind of finding his way over the course of the show.
- [29:52]
Joanna Robinson
I think the revel. Excuse me, I'll take that again. Sorry, Donnie. Yeah, I think the revelation that this, you know, young patrolman who we watch him essentially berate into his death in this body cam footage that opens the show. Yeah, it's such a tough and I think quite brave introduction of a character. This is our main character who we're gonna have to like, be with and care about for the entirety of the series. And we watch him do this thing where we're like, Jesus fucking Christ. And then the revelation later on that this patrolman might be part of this larger conspiracy that's not solved inside of this season. But like, I don't need that to be true. But it is interesting that that is true. It doesn't absolve Carl somewhat, but not entirely because like, you know, he doesn't know. He didn't know at the time that that was the case and he was ready to berate that guy into, you know, this thing that happened, so.
- [30:49]
Rob Mahoney
And frankly, if he's wrong and it's just sort of him grasping at straws to rationalize what happened that that could be even more interesting. And so it leaves you lots of good character work to deal with. And at the same time, like, this is a show that has a sense of humor about Karl. Like, this is a guy who has been through a lot, who is incredibly arrogant, who looks down on basically everyone around him, although not Akram, over time, comes to respect him pretty quickly, to be honest with you. But the interrogation scene where he is describing. I'm trying to remember, I think he might be talking about Merritt and kind of her background, how she keeps all these secrets. And she's so standoffish, and she's so overconfident and arrogant. And the camera just soft focuses from him to Akram, like, raising his eyebrows in the background. I just. I really appreciate the placement and the treatment of this character.
- [31:36]
Joanna Robinson
Yeah, yeah, Akram, we should say, just an absolutely incredible creation.
- [31:44]
Rob Mahoney
Just, like, I would take a bullet for him, you know, but what a wonderful character.
- [31:48]
Joanna Robinson
Absolutely. And I think the line when Carl asks him, like, if he worked for the good guys or the bad guys in Syria, and when he says, if you could. When you can tell me who those are, like, let me know.
- [32:01]
Rob Mahoney
Yeah.
- [32:01]
Joanna Robinson
Such a good line. I will say. And again, I don't know. Maybe I've watched too many mystery shows. This is definitely. I watched too many mystery shows. But I'm like, his dead wife. I like that. That I clocked very. That had. It had to be a dead wife. But, like, yeah, just the way. I don't mind it, but it's just like the way it's revealed is this big. Like, what do you mean? And I'm like, this isn't the Sixth Sense. Like, I felt, you know?
- [32:23]
Rob Mahoney
Anyway, here's the thing about that. Like, I think there are reveals in the show that are meant to be big reveals for the audience. There are also things that are reveals for Carl. And even in that one, it's sort of like plat for a laugh. Like, I think I already told you this. Like, I think you just weren't paying attention because you don't actually care about other people that much.
- [32:38]
Joanna Robinson
Right, right, right.
- [32:39]
Rob Mahoney
But, like, ultimately, ocram, I really hope we don't get a full backstory deep dive. Like, I don't want the full view of who he's been. But I love.
- [32:50]
Joanna Robinson
Don't put a flashback on this man. I beg of you. You don't have the budget for it. Please don't do it.
- [32:56]
Rob Mahoney
You don't have the budget for it. I don't want to see how it happens. But like, ultimately, for these sorts of detective pairings, this is a really interesting one because you do get the fish out of water elements in some respects, just because he's in a different place from the world in which he has policed previously or whatever his previous job was. But it's a cool dynamic because he has a whole life of relevant experience. He's not like the newbie on the force who's being coached up by Carl along the way. If anything, that's more kind of Rose getting back onto the scene and back into action, I would say after her, her kind of episode. But he is in a lot of ways, look, a broken femur here or there aside, like more of a by the book cop than Karl in a lot of respects. Like waiting for the warrant. Maybe we should stop here. Are you sure you want to do this? Like he's at least doing the gut check thing in a way where this is not a character who doesn't know what he's doing. He's just a character who is not taken seriously because of the circumstances.
- [33:49]
Joanna Robinson
And in that way, they're basically like sort of double Watsoning Akram and Rose in terms of like you are giving this version of Sherlock the ability to be somewhat condescending or, or actually a bit more, actually instructive of Rose, you know, when he is asking her questions and leading her to ask the right questions, etc. But then you also have in Akram, like someone who is just actually more capable than Carl in, in many, many respects. And that is really deeply enjoyable to watch at the same time.
- [34:25]
Rob Mahoney
Well, and we might even have the, the rare triple Watson if you want in that camp as well. He's. He's a little bit more out of remove because of his injury and his health during this season. But you can tell we're getting him back up and moving. We're getting him down into the office by the end of the season. Here's one of my unsolved mysteries for you, Joe. These two other cops who we spend a lot of time with on the top floor, I have nickname haircuts. Yeah, I have nicknamed Blondie and Fringe.
- [34:51]
Joanna Robinson
Okay, I just called them the Haircuts.
- [34:54]
Rob Mahoney
Are the haircuts going to join Department Q or are they meant to be our liaisons to the rest of the force?
- [34:59]
Joanna Robinson
I think we need them above ground. I think, I think they need to be above ground to, to sort of be skeptical. But when they showed up at the ferry, like, I was like, that was great. At the end, I was like, oh, the haircuts are here. This is great. Phenomenal ending to that. Let's talk about some therapy. You talked about how therapies the show is, but we literally have a TV therapist here in. What I have shared with you is, like, can be one of my least favorite TV tropes. Yeah. Works extremely well here for a couple of reasons. Number one, they hired Kelly McDonald, so, you know, it's a good call. It's just gonna work no matter what. And then two, I don't know if anyone listening to this listened to our episode on Stick, but we're just basically back in tin cup territory where we are disrespecting the doctor patient boundaries. I wanted to run through some of the TV detectives that you and I have encountered in our time together here on the Prestige TV podcast feed, and I want you to give them a letter grade, and you can base that on efficacy in terms of plot or are they actually good therapists? Your call.
- [36:13]
Rob Mahoney
Thank you for that freedom, Jo. Thank you for the open prompt.
- [36:15]
Joanna Robinson
You're welcome. So, I mean, we'll start Dr. Rachel Irving, played by Kelly McDonald in this show.
- [36:21]
Rob Mahoney
Yeah.
- [36:22]
Joanna Robinson
What letter grade are you giving her?
- [36:23]
Rob Mahoney
I think I might be a little more mixed on this plot line than you are. I'm with, like, with. What is this character? Like? I. This is how it felt to me. It felt like they wanted Carl to have some sort of vaguely romantic interest, but couldn't drum up a reason why, in the middle of all this other shit, he would just be, like, talking to a random woman at a bar. And so they made it a department mandate for him to get hot for therapist instead.
- [36:50]
Joanna Robinson
I have. I have the flip side to that.
- [36:52]
Rob Mahoney
Okay.
- [36:53]
Joanna Robinson
Dr. Karl Mork is such a maverick. The man does not park, doesn't care where he parks. He does that. Even if he had department mandated therapy, he would not go to it unless the woman were extremely hot.
- [37:05]
Rob Mahoney
That much is made very clear. Like, he is. He is one foot in the elevator.
- [37:09]
Joanna Robinson
Yeah.
- [37:09]
Rob Mahoney
Really? Two feet. And then has to put one foot back in to stop it.
- [37:12]
Joanna Robinson
Yeah. And then when he. When it's not her, when her. When the other therapist comes back, he's like, bye. I'm. I'm not doing this. So her being extremely attractive, I felt was a reason to keep Carl in therapy, but I think that is true. So what letter grade are you giving Dr. Rachel Irving? A Maybe too thinly constructed a character for you?
- [37:35]
Rob Mahoney
I'm gonna give her both as a character and in terms of her therapeutic efficacy, like C minus.
- [37:42]
Joanna Robinson
Oh, tough. Okay. The great cast.
- [37:45]
Rob Mahoney
Also Cher's. I gotta say, Cher is way too much like she is. She is trying to engage with him in a way that, yes, I understand, like what is happening here and why the lines are being blurred in the way they are. But like, ma' am, you gotta.
- [37:57]
Joanna Robinson
In terms of Scott Frank was writing this as he went. Do you think he decided one episode she's married and then later he's like, no, she just wears a ring sometimes because she almost got married once.
- [38:08]
Rob Mahoney
These were like the Roy grandkids just like disappearing from the plot line.
- [38:13]
Joanna Robinson
Yeah, that's a question I have. Okay. Catherine o' Hara, the last of us. Gail on the last of us.
- [38:20]
Rob Mahoney
See, I think she is a much more effective therapist in very unconventional times. Okay, so maybe not as. Maybe honestly similarly unserved by the plot, but better as I would say she's probably like C plot character wise, but maybe, maybe a solid like B plus for a post apocalyptic therapist.
- [38:40]
Joanna Robinson
Okay. Gets paid in weed and booze, but. And is willing to write off a character as just like a liar and not worth saving. But like, but these are trying times, so that's okay.
- [38:51]
Rob Mahoney
Desperate times. Serious, like, I think, look, once the zombies start coming out, you can call people on their bullshit in a more. Like in a quicker way. Like more. You can be more upfront, you can be more direct. Like, we just don't have time, you know.
- [39:03]
Joanna Robinson
Okay. Dr. Rachel Blake, played by Harriet Sansom Harris, who was on the Agency and if you didn't watch the agency or listen to us cover the agency. She is a strong plot dev who shows up not only to therapize Michael Fassbender's character, but also to just ask dummy questions in a room about the procedures of how to be a spy in certain cases. So Dr. Rachel Blake, what do you think she is?
- [39:29]
Rob Mahoney
A plot device, there's no doubt about it. But a plot device that worked on me.
- [39:33]
Joanna Robinson
Okay.
- [39:34]
Rob Mahoney
I think maybe a BB plus range for her in that part of her role in that show is she is acting the soundboard, she's acting the dummy. She's almost making Martian therapize and debate against himself in order like coax out the real him within the layers of various personalities he's created. I think, I think the bug is the feature in a lot of ways in the agency.
- [39:55]
Joanna Robinson
Okay. Ms. Casey Severance.
- [39:59]
Rob Mahoney
Is she a therapist? Life coach. Inspiration.
- [40:03]
Joanna Robinson
Yeah.
- [40:04]
Rob Mahoney
I mean, a plus, a plus for everything Ms. Casey related.
- [40:07]
Joanna Robinson
A plus for Ms. Casey Bryony adolescents.
- [40:14]
Rob Mahoney
What's higher than a plus?
- [40:15]
Joanna Robinson
Frankly? I know exactly. A plus with five gold stars after it. A Michelin rating, like, whatever we can do.
- [40:21]
Rob Mahoney
I jumped too fast. Maybe I should have left the A plus just for Briny. But I mean, powerhouse episode within a powerhouse season, like, to stand out in that season of adolescence really says something.
- [40:31]
Joanna Robinson
Okay, only two more to go. And this is, again, how many. I went through all the shows we've covered, and these are.
- [40:38]
Rob Mahoney
There haven't been that many, to be honest with you. They just all have a therapist in them.
- [40:43]
Joanna Robinson
Lily rabe, who played Dr. Liz Rush on Presumed Innocent, who decided not only to be a therapist for one member of the family, but kind of every member of the family.
- [40:54]
Rob Mahoney
That's. That's gonna be an F for me. It's a terrible decision. Don't do that. Especially when one of them turns out to be a murderer. You know, it's just. It's just not good.
- [41:02]
Joanna Robinson
It's not good, and it's not the one you think. Okay, and last but not least, I'm counting it, the Linda episode of Fargo Season 5. That counts. As we're making dolls. We're, you know, doing therapy via puppets.
- [41:17]
Rob Mahoney
Yes. You know, I'm. I'm going to say a solid again. I'm going to go in the B plus range. And the only reason I'm not going higher than that because I love that episode.
- [41:27]
Joanna Robinson
Yeah, you did.
- [41:28]
Rob Mahoney
Is mostly that it is a mental construction of what you think your therapy is gonna be in, like, an imagined format.
- [41:34]
Joanna Robinson
It's true. It's not actual therapy. It's dream therapy. And that's a kind of therapy in and of itself, especially when puppets involved. But here we go. Okay, that has been.
- [41:43]
Rob Mahoney
Oh, my God, Joe. I cannot believe there's been that many.
- [41:45]
Joanna Robinson
This is therapy corner with Rob and Joanna.
- [41:49]
Rob Mahoney
You gotta do better.
- [41:50]
Joanna Robinson
Would you like to revise your grade for Dr. Rachel Irving, given everything you just hurt.
- [41:57]
Rob Mahoney
You know what? I think I might. I think I might. I think I'm willing. I'm willing to go as far as B minus, but not. Not for the. Again. Effectiveness of her actual therapy.
- [42:06]
Joanna Robinson
Even.
- [42:06]
Rob Mahoney
Even though, like, Carl is someone who needs, I think, a bit of a more adversarial relationship with his therapist. Like, he needs someone who will poke and prod him in the way that many people do. There's some people who just need to be heard, and there's some people who, like Carl, need. You gotta cut through some layers to really get to anything meaningful. You gotta sit his ass in the chair because he wants to get out. He's looking to bounce at any opportunity.
- [42:28]
Joanna Robinson
You gotta peel through a lot of defensiveness and knitwear to get to the heart of Detective Inspector.
- [42:34]
Rob Mahoney
Thick netwear, thick netware, thick knitwear. You know, the cables. That's just scissors aren't even gonna get the job done. You need, like, bolt cutters for that thing.
- [42:44]
Joanna Robinson
It's true. Okay, on the casting front, I want to say here are two main. I've already mentioned Shetland as, like a source for the cast here.
- [42:55]
Rob Mahoney
Yeah.
- [42:55]
Joanna Robinson
We've also got some strong Game of Thrones presence, of course. Jamie Sivs, I want to say, is his name, who plays Hardy Mork's former partner, Jory Cassel on Game of Thrones. Got a knife through the eye in season one. Great to see Jory here.
- [43:11]
Rob Mahoney
It's just great, too, an endorsement of you and your visage that you just keep getting cast as. Like you're the reliable right hand guy I can implicitly trust.
- [43:20]
Joanna Robinson
Yeah. And we'll be really bummed that he's injured totally. Slash dead. Okay. Kate Dickey, of course, the legend as their commanding officer, AKA Lysa Aaron. How did Kate. I love Kate Dickey. Anytime she shows up in anything, even on Loki where she was not used very well, I still just really like spending time with Kate Dickey and her wonderful accent. So how did. How did she work in this role for you?
- [43:45]
Rob Mahoney
Quite effectively. You know, like the. Again, the Diana Taverner comp is like, right there for us as we come off of Slow Horses and eventually back into the next season of Slow Horses very soon.
- [43:54]
Joanna Robinson
Yeah.
- [43:55]
Rob Mahoney
You know, this character has some similarities in terms of the dynamic, but is not like, I think, maybe a little bit political. Much less political than Diana Taverner is, at least cravenly so. Just kind of pragmatic as an actual leader and manager to the extent that you have to just, like, play this game. Like, I like, I think the balance they walk with her in terms of, again, trying to prod Karl into actual healthy directions for himself as someone who clearly is, like, invested in him as a person. But the ways in which that manifests in the workplace, feeling adversarial to him, I just think creates like a great running through line for this show.
- [44:29]
Joanna Robinson
And similar to Taverner, of course, there is the. From the beginning, there is the misallocation of funds. Right. Because she is tasked to create this department with a healthy budget. And we see she shoves them down in the basement with no resources, and all of a sudden, upstairs, everyone gets new phones and big screen TVs and whatever.
- [44:51]
Rob Mahoney
So let's say I Think that's just a smart play by her. I think that's well done police work in terms of getting resources for the bulk of the department and not like your big game hunting you're doing downstairs on a long shot.
- [45:06]
Joanna Robinson
So craven misallocation of funds. But.
- [45:10]
Rob Mahoney
And then, but pragmatic allocation of funds.
- [45:13]
Joanna Robinson
And then okay, if you want to defend bad bosses, I will defend bad therapists. And that's just where we will be. Well, there's also the implication at the end when we get this whole strange arachnophobia sequence that happens at the end of the season.
- [45:26]
Rob Mahoney
Let's pause right there. What is going on with the arachnophobia?
- [45:29]
Joanna Robinson
I don't know. But isn't the implication of all of that that she is somehow involved in the corruption surrounding the inciting incident that put Carl in the hospital and Hardy in the, in the crutches.
- [45:44]
Rob Mahoney
My, my read on that sequence is that she has an actual fear of spiders.
- [45:50]
Joanna Robinson
Yes.
- [45:50]
Rob Mahoney
And is looking.
- [45:53]
Joanna Robinson
Once again, therapy comes through. She's listening to a self help tape on how to deal with your arachnophobia.
- [45:58]
Rob Mahoney
She is. And she was very panicked earlier in the season when she visited the therapist's office and found that there were cobwebs involved and was like how could this be a therapeutic environment? And she's looking to apply that fear and surprise of seeing a spider to seeing something that I guess is just like not as alarming to her in some way with these crime scene investigations. Like is she trying to drum up the Pavlovian response of some kind of fear from something that she's actually not that afraid of?
- [46:23]
Joanna Robinson
I, I don't know. It felt like a dramatic way to have her look through the case file and communicate to us that she might have her hands dirty on this and that the net is closing in around her because Carl is helping with this investigation now even though he's not supposed to be. And so they're getting the correct answers on this case that she seems to have been implicated in.
- [46:50]
Rob Mahoney
So see, I just don't think you would cast Kate Dickey for such a character. I think you only cast her for very straightforward positive influences on especially our.
- [46:58]
Joanna Robinson
Main characters lives a kindly, good hearted.
- [47:00]
Rob Mahoney
Person she so often is.
- [47:04]
Joanna Robinson
Last but not least on the Thrones front, Clive Russell, who is, who is playing Jamie Lingard Merritt's father, the Blackfish himself, has to wear one of the worst wigs I think I've ever seen in a flashback that is full of truly terrible wigs for no discernible reason. I don't know why. I really feel like if he had just had gray hair in the flashback, I wouldn't have been that distressed about it. And young Merit having, like, a party city, but make it like early 2000s scene. Girl, blue hair.
- [47:43]
Rob Mahoney
I.
- [47:43]
Joanna Robinson
This is one of the genuinely one of the worst wigs I've ever seen in my life. And, like, I. I know they can do better than this. I feel it. I feel it in my bones. I don't know what happened here.
- [47:52]
Rob Mahoney
They definitely can. Again, they must have blown the budget on sweaters. Like, it's the only plausible explanation because this is your world, Jill. I am mostly quite wig blind. Like, I'm. It just does not bother me. I don't usually clock it. These were upsetting. Just genuinely took you out of these sequences that I think otherwise flashbacks that work quite well. And yet I'm just, like, watching this jet black wig on this man's head wriggle around. It doesn't make any sense.
- [48:17]
Joanna Robinson
And hers is, like, basically shiny. I'm just like. I just. It was. It was really tough for me. And then last but not least, I want to say we've already covered the thrones. I would just want to say that half of the cast of the Doctor who episode Tooth and Claw, which is the Queen Victoria werewolf episode, of course, is also here. And I just want to shout them out. Specifically the woman who's playing the vain, rich, villainous head of the mental institution.
- [48:53]
Rob Mahoney
Again, what a construction. That's when you're going really deep into almost Agatha Christie territory. Just cartoonish baroness of a benefactor woman.
- [49:02]
Joanna Robinson
Yeah.
- [49:03]
Rob Mahoney
Fucking wonderful, wonderful stuff. Like, this is part of what I love about specifically, like, British and in this case, like Scottish or originated like police procedurals are. The interrogation scenes are just so different. Like, the amount of time, like, you get in that little zone and you can feel the bubble forming around you and the characters as you're like, oh, we're just gonna spend six minutes here having this conversation. This is just what this is gonna be. And we're gonna read their faces as they do. Like, the two. Like, the double interpretation reaction shots to basically everything. And. And that's a huge part of the fun and I think a huge part of what makes this season so fun, even as we're delving into murder and disappearance and suicide attempt. And, like, it's, again, very, very bleak stuff. But it really, really does work. And I think it feels. It feels breezier than it probably is.
- [49:51]
Joanna Robinson
And I think to go back to this production design question, I think, like, when you think about her office and the setup there. The like gilded details of her office. When you think about the church with the rainbow color stained glass, where we find, you know, the cop who was previously on the case. Again, these are just very like poppy visuals, which is different from the color palette of a. Of a Broadchurch, Happy Valley, Shetland, or even any of these like bleak Scandinavian detective stories, which, you know, is the origin of this particular story. Those are very washed out, like gray sort of environments. And so to take that world and put it in this sort of very candy colored, sometimes vision, you know, Scott Frank is saying, I'm not here to blow up this genre. I'm just here to do this genre very well. And in many case, in many ways, wigs and some twists and turns aside, I think he did. I think he did a really great job. But he is also putting like an American stamp on it. Yeah, in a certain way. He's, you know, he said that originally they thought they might set this in Boston or Vancouver. He was like somewhere with a ferry. And then they decided he got him a ferry. But they decided to do Edinburgh. They decided to do Scotland. And I love that they did Scotland. I think it makes the show. I don't know that I wanted to watch the Boston version of this show. I'm good, respectfully, but, you know, to. To take Scotland and Edinburgh. A beautiful place, but a beautiful place that is like old world and you know, stone and all of this sort of stuff and make it just poppier and more colorful. Is it just like a really interesting thing to do that I thought, you know, makes this show stand out from the other shows that it is trying to be in lockstep with.
- [51:55]
Rob Mahoney
I guess it's not like the other girls. Joe, I don't like. I don't know what to tell you, but yeah, I think it's. And it's big city versus like small town village as well. Like the differentiation immediately of all those locations. And this is another like classic sort of mystery trope in a like, where in the world is Carmen San Diego kind of way, where it's like when you need to reinterrogate the previous investigator who's now running the rehab out of the church. Like you go back to the church. You just go back to those locations. And so you create this visual shorthand that I think makes a lot of sense and makes the whole story feel very, very intelligible. I was super impressed and like, we should probably devote a little bit of time talking about merit specifically and the hyperbaric Chamber tube that she's like, trapped in old boy style, basically throughout this season. Yeah, that storyline is yo yoing through time and there's not one Chiron on screen saying, day one, year one.
- [52:47]
Joanna Robinson
I was surprised that we didn't get a year on anyone on Netflix, of all places.
- [52:52]
Rob Mahoney
Well, they know you're not looking at the screen, so they, you know, they're saying it out loud. That's the important part.
- [52:56]
Joanna Robinson
They won't be reading, so don't bother giving them numbers or. Yeah, anyway, sorry, go ahead.
- [53:01]
Rob Mahoney
But of all this stuff that's happening in this show, like Chloe Perry's performance as Merit, like, she is acting opposite mostly no one, sometimes various hallucinations, sometimes performing dental surgery on herself. It's a tough gig. And I think she mostly really nails it. Like, those scenes feel really interesting. Obviously, you're pulled by the central mystery of what's happening. But she also just has a great silent film actor kind of expressiveness that really, really works for these scenes in which she's absolutely saying nothing at all.
- [53:35]
Joanna Robinson
I really, I. I thought her performance was so good. Once again, you know, similar to, let's say, a Jon Hamm esque. You know, she is. She has a brother who draws out this other side of her that is, you know, part of her story. But I. I love how we meet her. I think the timeline trickery that they play in the first episode. Episode actually is done quite well, especially since they mentioned a number of times when talking about the establishment of. Of Department Q that, like, you can have a special connection in. In the Advocate, you know, like, so you're like, oh, Merit's gonna be their lawyer that they're connected to. Or let's.
- [54:19]
Rob Mahoney
Let's Avengers this shit up. Like, we're getting the team together.
- [54:21]
Joanna Robinson
Yeah. And then flash to, you know, her wig, and you're like, no, that lady has been in that hyperbaric chamber for four years. So all that works really well. And I love how we meet her. And I think she's really believable as someone who has had to hardscrabble her way out of a tough place. I love when I think, yeah, it's Hardy who's like, looking at her car, her watch, all this stuff like that. Yes, it's. It's generous. It's family money. But he's like, good job, Merit. Like, you got yourself into a better life. You did that for yourself. I find her, like, believable in all the scenes when men are like, yeah, I lost my mind, was willing to throw away my Family for her. I find her compelling enough to be believable for that. And she does have this incredibly sort of similar to Anya Taylor Joy, like, a very compellingly interesting different face that is really, really fun. Endlessly watchable. Not fun. I'm not having a fun time in the hyperbaric chamber, but endlessly watchable to me.
- [55:27]
Rob Mahoney
So she's clearly not having much fun. And upon that very interesting, very watchable face. I mean, particular salute to the makeup team who make her look like she has not seen the sun in four years. Do not drop the skincare regimen. We don't want it. It's really tough scenes down there.
- [55:44]
Joanna Robinson
I will say shout out to Andy Greenwald, who dropped a really impressive Scottish accent when he was talking about how it only takes her three months to be like, fine.
- [55:54]
Rob Mahoney
Yeah, looking great, fully well adjusted.
- [55:57]
Joanna Robinson
The hair is glossy. Everything looks fine. But, yeah, that's, you know. Yeah. Chloe Perry is wonderful. And, like, this show does not need to have her in its future. It does set up this world where we have characters like the Lord Advocate or Kate Dickey's character Moira. All these characters can come back as touch points around the department if they just want to take on the next book and do a different case. We don't need to have Merritt Lingard in the future, though. We could. You know, in theory, if I were her, I'd be like, I'm not going back to be to being an attorney. No, thank you.
- [56:39]
Rob Mahoney
Absolutely not. But with all that family money, like, again, she doesn't really need it at this point.
- [56:44]
Joanna Robinson
Yeah. So, yeah. Okay. Anything else you want to talk about?
- [56:49]
Rob Mahoney
I think just as far as the merit mystery goes, like, the whole. Again, her whole plot line is based on the idea that she's been trapped in this hyperbaric chamber and meant to recount the people that she's felt that she has wronged to find the one right answer that will satisfy her captors, which, again, is, like, kind of silly ridiculous in terms of who ended up capturing her, but also kind of silly ridiculous in the way that these mysteries often are. So I'm very much here for it. I love the idea that she is reliving all of these mistakes, most of which are, like, oriented to her job. Right. Like, people she has wronged, potential informants who she did not protect and then get injured while in prison, like, those kinds of things. And the one thing she's actually being held for is something that she really isn't responsible for at all. Like, is really not her fault. And the idea of couching, like, this twisted form of revenge in personal justice. This idea of, like, you're trying to get justice for your son who died or your brother who died, and in doing so are, like, really misinterpreting any sense of that word or any sense of what justice actually is. I think is such a smart riff on this idea. And this character who's obviously a prosecutor in her own right, and it kind of takes a lot of the assumptions about this kind of story and flips them on their head in a way that I really, really appreciate it.
- [58:05]
Joanna Robinson
It's interesting. This is like the third duck in a row of stories that I've covered recently, the last of us being one of them. And then Mallory and I did a Batman Begins anniversary pod over on House of Arm. Both of those two properties talked about the difference between justice and revenge. What is revenge and what is justice? And putting a woman in a hyperbaric chamber for four years, I'm going to say it's not justice is revenge, but. But this idea of, like, what is pure justice? Justice is about, like, you know, what, making things right, serving what is the. For the greater good of the community. And then vengeance is this personal punitive thing, which is different. Something to think about in these trying times we live in. We have gotten all the way here, and we have not mentioned Shirley Henderson. And that's mostly because they did not use the great Shirley Henderson very much to her ability. But she's here and she's great as always, but she can do. She can always do more. That that was like. I agree. Andy said this in the interview with Scott Frankie. He's like, I was sure she was the murderer. And I felt. I was like. At the very beginning, I was like, how is it not in the first episode is like, how is it not Shirley Henderson? Because why is she here? Just playing like a kindly woman. You don't cast Shirley Henderson to do that. Scott Frank's like, I do. And that's what he did.
- [59:29]
Rob Mahoney
So, you know, they got to round out the cast with enough people you're at least looking at. Right? And you're. And again, it's like, maybe even for an episode or two. And specifically the fact that she is in the opening of Merritt's backstory, where you're like, this must be a character of import. And she is, in her way, just not in the way that we might have anticipated coming into that scene.
- [59:47]
Joanna Robinson
It is. She is a safe harbor for William. And. And also, I really liked the Will, how the William character was portrayed. This person who has. Who suffered this terrible trauma is, you know, obviously quite dependent on people taking care of him, but also has this whole sequence where he is making things happen himself and. And playing a key part in rescuing his sister. His sister who is taking care of him. And I thought that was really, really wonderful.
- [60:19]
Rob Mahoney
The wordless reunion between Merritt and William is really something, to the point that even Carl, who just got shot, is like, hold on. Hold off on the medical attention. I need. I need to watch this. And I get it.
- [60:32]
Joanna Robinson
He's like, I'm in a sling. It's all I need. I've got my. My stories are on the shot of Chloe Perry in the. In the casket. The hyperbaric cast.
- [60:43]
Rob Mahoney
The hyperbaric stretcher.
- [60:45]
Joanna Robinson
Yeah, stretcher. There you go. It's not a casket that's grim when she's putting her hand up to the window. And so basically she put her hand up to the camera so the camera is just like right on her hand looking down her face. I thought that was a really, really, really good shot. And you're right to call out. I. I thought. I thought it was really smart for something like the church to be such a recognizable place that when we go back there, we don't have a minute of like, wait, who's this guy again? We're like, oh, it's the guy who is only ever in that church. That's fine.
- [61:15]
Rob Mahoney
So the little visual reveals within that scene of, like, you see him in the church and he's drinking and you're like, oh, my God, there's something happened. And then, yeah, you get that reveal turning his head where he's been beaten to all shit by these three other muscle guys effectively in the. Again, the organized crime subplot that is kind of humming underneath this story, which I imagine we are going to revisit. Joe, as the seasons roll on, as we get into other stories, it has to be baked into some element of a season two, right.
- [61:44]
Joanna Robinson
I don't think you cast someone as distinctive looking as Douglas Russell as Graham Finch. If you don't plan to bring that.
- [61:52]
Rob Mahoney
Back, you don't put a character named Graham Finch in your story if he doesn't have some bigger part to play.
- [61:58]
Joanna Robinson
And if he doesn't have goons who are willing to say, like, the worst thing possible to a teenager in an ice cream shop.
- [62:04]
Rob Mahoney
Yet another argument in favor of not letting your kids watch this show.
- [62:08]
Joanna Robinson
There you go. Okay. Anything else you want to say about this show?
- [62:11]
Rob Mahoney
Overall? I just want to praise department Q4. Like, I think in the end especially, like, it gives us just the right amount of postscript indulgence where we get. We get those moments, like, with Marin and William, or ultimately, we get this moment where Merritt, like, kind of comes out of the elevator and bumps into Carl, not really knowing who he is, as she's, like, trying to find him.
- [62:32]
Joanna Robinson
And he doesn't say anything.
- [62:33]
Rob Mahoney
He doesn't say anything. And so it's like, we get. She gets to look at her own investigation board. And so you get these, like, little emotional payoffs, but no big speech. No, like, saccharine line. No, like, not. Not even, like, a knowing. Like, a knowing glance necessarily. Like, it's all thrown off, like, really, really effectively. And after a story like this, that's kind of what I want is, like, the quiet resolution, and then we're getting back to work.
- [62:58]
Joanna Robinson
All right, Scott, Frank, if you're listening, and I hope you're not, just because I hope you live your life and don't listen to podcasts about your own show, but we'd love a season two. Yeah, more problematic therapy for Joanna, more mean bosses for Rob, and we'll have a great time. Anything else you want to say, Rob?
- [63:21]
Rob Mahoney
I guess just email us@prestigetvspotify.com with whatever further demands you may have for our future coverage. Joe, we're trying to figure out what's next on the agenda. This one snuck up on us, and I'm really. I'm really glad we caught up to it.
- [63:34]
Joanna Robinson
Absolutely. We have something cooking, a plan for the. For this odd content list. Summer. We have some ideas, but, yeah, is it cooking?
- [63:43]
Rob Mahoney
I would say it's, like, on the counter, dough is rising, you know, like, we're not in the oven yet.
- [63:48]
Joanna Robinson
Do you cook bread, Rob? You don't. You bake bread? But, yes, the stir fry is still being assembled. And then we will. We will hopefully dish it up to you. Thanks to Donnie Beacham for his work on this. It's late on a Tuesday for Donnie on the. On the east coast, so thank you so much, and we will be back with something for you soon. Bye, Sam.