A (2:51)

Beach, Reedy, Girl on the train, etc. Etc. Yeah, so the, some behind the scenes people. So Gabe Roer is the creator of this and he is a novelist but he also worked on the X Files back in the day. So he has like some TV pedigree to him. And then the showrunner here is Howard Gordon who worked on 24 and Homeland. And there is a lot of DNA shared between Homeland, the, the good seasons of Homeland and. And this show. This was once again an eight episode drop over the weekend. We got what was probably like the most predictable ever text from our boss, Bill Simmons of like, I love this show. You need to watch the show. This is like right up Bill's alley.

B (3:32)

It was predictable, Joe, but you also like Hank Aaron called sorry, Babe Ruth called this shit. Like you called your shot. They're like, Bill will put up the bat signal and we will be obligated to respond to it. Heroes that we are to cover this kind of television. And you could not have been more right. This is so up Bill's alley. It's ridiculous.

A (3:49)

And this. But again, this is like the, this is the best version of a kind of show that Bill is like, loves to watch. Yes, Bill loves these shows. And then he also loves Claire Danes. He loves. I mean, exactly. And then also the first, the first two in the last two episodes are directed by Antonio Campos who directed, among other things, the the Staircase and HBO Max. Sort of like did they do it? Did they not do it show that Bill and I covered together on this very feed. So this is just like all, all the ingredients are here. Bill is not here. He is, he is on business in New York. So you have the two of us who have spent the last 48 hours consuming this, this TV show. We have a lot to say about it. So anyway, I, I would say spoiler alert, spoiler warning. Apologies to our producer Donnie who only got to watch the first episode were about to spoil the hell out of this show. The Beast in Me.

B (4:44)

It is quite binge friendly though. We should say like if you, if you've only begun it, you've already gotten a sense of that like how easy it is to just lock in for the next episode. But if you haven't embarked on your Beast in me journey as of yet, I think you'll find that it goes down very smoothly. It's just one of those shows that you can lock into pretty easily. And I think there's a reason it not only appeals to people like Bill and kind of his sensibilities, as you were saying, Joe, but that it is just like wildfire on Netflix right now. Like this is something that is just grabbing wide swaths of people because there is that like mystery element that can pull anybody in.

C (5:17)

This episode is brought to you by Salty Cheesy Cheez It Crackers. Should this whole podcast just be me eating Cheez It? That would be a top notch podcast. You could hear them crunching in my mouth. You could think about how salty and savory and delicious they are. You can just get Cheez it on the brain. Oh man, those Cheez it cravings, they get you. Anyway, what was I talking about? Oh yeah. Oh, Cheez It.

A (5:40)

Yeah.

C (5:41)

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A (6:13)

We're going to talk about Claire Danes in a second. I actually want to start with Matthew Rhys because I think Claire Danes is playing a character we've seen Claire Danes play many, many times. Nobody does it better.

B (6:22)

I think the upset is that she's in a show with a character who has bipolar disorder and it's not her. Like that is shocking information.

A (6:31)

So. But you know the, the 49 minutes in the chin is wobbling. You know the, the eyes are wild with, with suspicion and anxiety and grief and all these other like everything you want Claire Danes to do, she does. She's even got the, like my so called life ginger hair. Like all the hits are being played here in this show. But I want to talk with my start with Matthew Reese because someone who maybe some people might be less familiar with because as much as I love the Americans, I know it wasn't Like a super, you know, hugely watched show. Perry Mason, sort of ditto a show for that. Wound up with, like, probably a niche or audience than they had hoped. I think Matthew Reese is like, one of the best actors that exists.

B (7:15)

Wildly talented.

A (7:17)

So good. And this is not, you know, on the Americans, we had to. We watched him play a spy who then plays a billion different roles inside of that role in many wigs. Many actors.

B (7:30)

I was about to say, how many. How many wigs and sub wigs within those roles.

A (7:34)

So I feel like we've seen a lot from him, but I have never seen him do precisely this, which requires this character. Nile Jarvis is, you know, there's like, shades of trumpiness there, et cetera, but it has to be, especially in this first episode, an unapologetic asshole.

B (7:56)

Yes.

A (7:56)

And also someone who is so sort of compellingly charismatic that you understand why Claire Danes character Aggie gets sort of drawn to him in. In a way, even as she is repulsed by him. What would you. What would you make of this?

B (8:12)

The degree of difficulty of what you just described is astronomical. Like, there just aren't that many actors who can pull both parts of that off. And I would say in particular, that first meeting you have with Niall, it's just like within 90 seconds, maybe, like, he has, you know, told Aggie what to do. He's negged her, he's antagonized her for not publishing another book, yet he's, like, stuck in a jab about her dead son. The speed with which this show gets you to hate this guy is overwhelming. And then it just starts peeling it back with, like, a little bit of intrigue or like a little bit of truth, you know, like, yeah, that book about Ruth Bader Ginsburg and Antonin Scalia does sound really boring. Like these. Some of the jokes are landing, and all of a sudden it's just like you are eating out of the palm of this guy's hand, even if it's covered in rotisserie chicken juice. Like, there's just something about it that is gross and repelling, but also works.

A (8:59)

Oh, my God, I forgot about that scene where he just, like, devours the rotisserie chicken. Really great stuff. I was. I was telling our producer Donnie, before we started recording, there was something in some of the jobs I've had, like in the Vanity Fair world or when I was working in San Francisco at City Arts and lectures, there's a couple personalities that I've met that are very similar to this, where they say extremely rude, brusque, like, you know, just outrageous shit that is so repulsive or personally insulting. But then they also just have this sort of like, they can get away with it, and you're sort of baffled as to why, but there is just a je ne sais quoi about them that they've gone through life this far, you know, saying whatever the fuck they want to say, perhaps insulated by money or power or whatever the case may be. And the moment inside the first episode when Aggie winds up going to lunch with him, and then you see sort of Ruth Bader Ginsburg, Antonin Scalia, like, her get sort of drawn into this kinship of a certain kind of him or fascination. And I'm just like, yeah, I feel like I've been at dinners with these people where I am, like, repulsed and. But, like, they're never boring.

B (10:21)

No.

A (10:21)

And there's something about that that is just sort of exciting. Do you know what I mean?

B (10:25)

Especially for a character in Aggie who is bored with so many aspects of her life, is like, looking for something to grab onto, to interest her again and make her feel alive again after this incredible personal trauma, losing her son, the dissolution of her marriage. She's now had, like, years and years since her last book came out, which was beloved, but she doesn't know how to follow it up. And this guy just like, literally moves in next door, like, stumbles into her basically. And her want to try to make sense of him is interesting. And his. His want to mess with her is also interesting. And especially as a person who has that personality type you described, Joe, but also has read her book and can locate it very precisely. Like, this is a woman with daddy issues who is, like, craving for a kind of approval from somebody. And honestly, if you are, like, overwhelmingly mean to somebody, apparently that's a playbook for that kind of behavior. And there's like a weird att attachment that forms and a mutual fascination between those two characters as they're trying to get to the bottom of each other.

A (11:23)

He so spoilers genuinely for this, because the crux of this show is did he do, among other things, did he do it right? And.

B (11:36)

And did he do any of, like, four different things as the show develops?

A (11:40)

Many, many a murder. And honestly, even once we saw him do his first murder, I was like, but did he do all the murders?

B (11:50)

This is the thing. I kind of suspected that. That we would get like, oh, he did some, but not these. Those, but not like, yeah, that. That was kind of the space the show wants you to be in.

A (11:59)

He did, as it turns out all the murders, maybe all the murders that have ever been. And. And at towards the end, as Aggie is trying to draw his current wife, Nina, played by Britney Snow, sort of like in. Into helping her because she's been backed into an impossible corner, she basically says, he doesn't respect you because you've decided to believe the lie.

B (12:31)

Right.

A (12:31)

And so that sort of like spit. You spin that back around to the. The top of the season and just sort of Nile Jarvis as this very smart, very shittily privileged, whatever guy who, like, kind of wants someone. Yeah. To see him for who he is. And his analysis of her as someone who, like, her father was a con artist and all these other things. And he's like, but you. You admired him anyway. Like, he wants that. He wants someone smart enough to see him for who he is.

B (13:04)

Yes.

A (13:04)

And to admire him anyway is something that it seems like he wants from.

B (13:09)

Aggie and I would say ultimately kind of succeeds in getting from Aggie, among other people and honestly from the audience too. Like, this is a show in which Niall is constantly messing with Aggie. Like, he has this little riff in the middle while they're in the mid, like, bender, about how killer whales are the only animals that play with their food. And it's like he is playing with his food the whole time and the show is playing with its food the whole time in terms of, like, it's going to wink a little bit. It's like the psycho killer is going to put on psycho killer. Like, we're going to have these sort of, like, dance break. Isn't this so funny? Moments of revelation. But it's also just like, constantly teasing you and leading you on down, like, various alleys of figuring out who did what exactly in a way that is, I think, just really captivating.

A (13:53)

And there is this. So I, you know, I had, I had set a prompt for one of the few prompts that we're going to get to inside of our coverage of how do we talk about eight episodes inside of a podcast, one single podcast. We do our best, but one of the questions I sort of asked you beforehand was if you had a favorite episode versus a least favorite episode. And episode six, which is the Beast in Me, which, during which they go on this massive bender together, transcend it to me. I just thought this was so good. The psycho killer included, like, everything that happens and they wind up in, you know, and then he talks about the romance of them. The, like, you know, there isn't even a little part of you that wants to, like, have sex with me, like all this sort of stuff. And so I think I want to dial in on that because the decision to make Aggie's character gay and her ex wife, played by the great Natalie Morales, like, you do have this, like, sick double fascination and this seduction and this draw, but it's not sexual, it's something else. And that, you know, that takes it one step to the left from Homeland. So we're not just doing Homeland again. We're doing this sort of like intellects circling each other, slightly twisted vengeful psychology circling each other, but not just because we've seen the version of that where then they have, like, sex during their bender. But they didn't because it's something slightly different, which I thought was smart to do.

B (15:17)

You know, I think it's a really great idea. And. And you're right that it puts the spotlight squarely on the psychology, right? It turns it from, are these people just gonna fuck or what? To, like, is, is there something that these two human beings are sharing on, like, a different kind of chemical level? Right. Like a different kind of, you know, imbalance or however you want to describe it. Like they're. They are wanting and needing something. And is. Is Aggie as vulnerable to the sort of bloodlust that she has hinted at and talked about and thrown a brick through a window to try to achieve? Like, she's been wanting something for so long. And I think what's so great about the way Niall is portrayed in the show, Whereas, I mean, he's just like a straight up mustache twirling villain sometimes, like they're shooting him in murderer lighting, he's just doing full, like, SVU perpetrator kind of acting. At some points, it all really hits in a broad way, but a really successful way. So, I mean, he has these big, broad portrayals that I think really work especially for this character. But at the same time, it's like the show almost doesn't want you to fully believe that he didn't do these things. It's like it's writing, I think, the edge of plausible deniability, reasonable doubt.

A (16:24)

Right.

B (16:24)

It's like there's just enough gap between the version of the monster you see on screen and the actual proof tying him to any of this stuff that I think there's just enough wiggle room there.

A (16:35)

Absolutely. And there were plenty of times where I was like, maybe he didn't do it. Maybe this is. You know, I was asking Donnie before we started recording, like, who is spoiled now, but had only watched one episode And I was like, do. Like, do you think it's more interesting. Interesting if he did it or if he didn't do it?

B (16:48)

Yes.

A (16:49)

And I had decided that it would be more interesting if he didn't do it. But actually, I like the way it all turns out. And I will say that, like, on this. On this front of, like, plausible, you know, doubt, I guess, about whether or not he did it. We've got Jonathan Banks, the great Jonathan Banks from the Gilligan verse. Mike Ermentrout himself as Nile's father, Martin Jarvis. And then Tim, I think you pronounce his last name, Guy guinea, who plays his Uncle Rick. And they're both. Both of these are, like, specifically cast to be kind of red herrings of, like, did his father have, you know, his wife killed? Did his Uncle Rick do it to shut her up for some reason, like, or did she leave us fake suicide note so that she could, like, just disappear?

B (17:42)

Absolutely.

A (17:42)

You know, and you've got. And then you've got, like, actors like Bill Irwin playing her dad earnestly saying, like, it can't have been Niall. So there's all these, like, you know, they're. They're carefully seating the cast around him with, like, shady enough figures. And it just turns out that Martin Jarvis, I mean, was he covering up his son's murders? Yes, of course. But he's like, dies, well, dies of suffocation, but basically dies of a broken heart that, like, he's just not gonna. His murderous son is not gonna stop, you know what? And it's just sort of like, it's great casting to put Jonathan Banks in that good old. They broke my son, Jonathan Banks in that role.

B (18:22)

There's like, just enough stuff happening in the frame, I feel like, to back foot you just enough to keep the plot moving. As you said, these kind of dual heavies that the story has kind of at its disposal could open up any kind of possibilities. And I think there's the lingering question whether it's with Martin or anyone in the story of not just did Niall do this thing, but who knows? Or who is living in the ambiguity of thinking he did, but denying it for whatever personal reason. And what I was kind of struck by in watching it is the way ambition is, like, ruling over this story, right? It's like every single character has something that they're after, and sometimes Niall can help them get it. Sometimes they're, you know, their daughter was murdered, but they're over leveraged financially, so they have to believe in him. You know, it's or Even in Nina's case, it's like she tried on a certain kind of lifestyle and liked the way it fit and sort of rode that socialite ladder all the way to the top. Even if it came at the expense of living with a murderer.

A (19:19)

Right. Telling herself she wasn't living with a murderer, telling herself she understood who he was, but really knowing the truth.

B (19:25)

And I think the fact that that relationship, specifically Nina's such an interesting character in this story and you already talked about kind of her ambiguity and the way that characters knowledge or lack of knowledge sort of becomes the main text of what is ultimately like the climactic confrontation between her and Niall. Like, of. Did you believe this? Like she's trying to get him on tape confessing to all these murders. The fact that the ambiguity for her becomes the point in the way that it has been for all of us all throughout this show. I thought it was just like a really artful way to wrap this thing up.

A (19:57)

On the one hand, yes.

B (19:59)

Did not work for you?

A (20:00)

Well, no. I mean, I really liked this show. I loved episode 7 6. Episode 7 is like a full flashback episode which I had some questions about. Like, does that feel like we're just pressing the brakes on? I don't know. The deployment of flashbacks I had. That was maybe my least favorite episode.

B (20:16)

That was also my least favorite episode. And we really chose you and I personally. We need to get Layla George out of these flashback episodes. Just like was living in the past on disclaimer. And here is just like, I think she's legit good in this part. And there are moments specifically with her interaction with Brian Abbott who plays who's this FBI agent. And when he's telling her like, maybe you need therapeutic help more than you need protection. And the unraveling on her face as she is processing one of her lifelines kind of slipping away from her. There's really great stuff, but let this woman act in the present tense, please.

A (20:54)

Free Layla George. By the time it got to Nina and, and Niall in their bedroom, and she's like, wait, you killed? Like, you know, it's just like so clearly that she was taping him.

B (21:08)

It's telegraphed for sure. But you know what? New York, a one party consent state, you know, they actually, they got it going on.

A (21:13)

It's true. It's true. Okay. I wanted to ask you on that, on that sort of like plausible doubt front, this was like a prompt I had for you of like, are there. I actually love a story like this. Yes. Where we, the viewers are constantly Asking ourselves, you know, because there's a way in which you can be like too far ahead of the main character or too. Or they hide the ball so well that it's just like a last minute reveal and it's not that interesting. But this idea of riding the line between like, did he do it, did he not? Or did she do it, did she not? Et cetera. Especially over eight episodes. Like a lot of the examples that I could come up with were films where you don't have as much time to sort of keep you in that space. So what were some of the similar stories that you came up with that you maybe liked? And I guess we're going to spoil all of these stories.

B (22:03)

I mean, we can, we can lightly spoil. I think I agree with you that I think TV has a huge problem with this. The shows that try to attempt it, it's just too much time on the tightrope and you feel it one way or the other. And so it does work better on film. To me, there are two people who are just the absolute masters of this kind of storytelling. One is Hitchcock. No surprise. Like, this is where that guy lives and eats. Vertigo does this as well as any movie or artwork has ever done it. Park Chan Wook, I would say, is the other one. And specifically the combo of the handmaiden and decision to Leave, I think are just like expert versions of this sort of almost more con man than they are murder mystery of like, how much can I trust this person in the version of events that they are selling me as an audience member and as like a surrogate character from whatever point of view you're being told. Again, that's just as good as it gets for me.

A (22:54)

I also have Hitchcock and Park Chan Wook on my list. Hitchcock. There's a Cary Grant movie, Suspicion, where Cary Grant. It's almost as much it's like about the storytellers you mentioned two directors, but also the performance like Cary Grant as like, you know, someone who's new wife is like, is this a murderer?

B (23:16)

Yeah.

A (23:16)

Similarly in the movie, I mean, one is called Suspicion, the other is called Shadow of a Doubt. In Shadow of a Doubt, Joseph Cotton plays the Uncle Charlie who comes back. And that. That Hitchcock movie, Shadow of a Doubt, which I love, has two modern counterparts. There's Stoker, which is Park Chan Wook's like, that's basically like a remake of Shadow of a Doubt with Matthew Good in the Uncle Charlie role.

B (23:37)

And then Good is particularly suited to that kind of thing too.

A (23:40)

Exactly.

B (23:41)

He walks that line very well.

A (23:43)

A Matthew Good. And then Dan Stevens in the Guest, which is, like, also another sort of, like, contemporary remake of Shadow Doubt, I think, are just, like, really, really good versions of that.

B (23:54)

That one. The guess is almost a different formula, though, because it's almost like, what is this guy capable of more than what has he already done? You know, there's like a. There's. There's a wolf in the. In the herd, so to speak, and you're just trying to suss out, like, how dangerous a situation is this.

A (24:09)

It's just my memory that, like, that reveal does come earlier than this, but not, like, at the very beginning. And Dan Stevens, who up until that point had, like, just played Cousin Matthew on Downton Abbey. And so you're, like, not prepared for him to, like, not only, like, walk around in just a towel, but also, like, be super murdery. What about Gone Girl? And, like, the Amy Rosamund pike of it all? Like, if you don't know the twist of that movie, is that sort of, like, an interesting space to exist in? What do you think?

B (24:43)

I mean, unquestionably effective. I think the only question with that one is the structure and the timing. Like, is it coming early enough in the movie?

A (24:49)

Right.

B (24:49)

To tip the hand in just, like, a way that makes it a different thing? Because ultimately, like, I think what makes the project of something like the Beast in Me so challenging is not making the audience feel either too smart or too dumb. Like, you want them to turn their brain off and be along for the ride. And Gone Girl does that really effectively by tipping the hand almost a little earlier than this. But definitely it's. It's hard to string it out over eight hours, and it's hard to string it out even over two or two and a half.

A (25:14)

The last one I have on my list here, and actually, this is just. Again, this is sort of like Dan Stevens coming off of Downton Abbey, Chris Evans and Knives Out.

B (25:24)

Sure.

A (25:26)

Coming off of such a long Captain America run and the first Knives Out. I don't know about you, but I definitely. There was, like, a middle of the movie where I was like, maybe he didn't do it.

B (25:39)

Yeah.

A (25:39)

And then it's like, he definitely did it. Spoilers for Knives out, guys, but you're.

B (25:44)

Locating something, I think with Chris Evans and Matthew Goode and Dan Stevens, it's like, these are just among the most charming human beings alive.

A (25:51)

Exactly.

B (25:52)

And so to your point about Nile Jarvis as a character, it's like, there are certain people who can just get away with stuff. And the way you create that sort of character is by having that kind of charisma, this like undeniable quality that you can't fake and you can't put on. It's like you either have that or you don't. And so I think you have to be really careful in the construction and the casting of these movies that you have the right people and I think Matthew Reese and Claire Danes unquestionably the right people for this show.

A (26:16)

One last thing about Matthew Rhys, since we are talking about Matthew Goode. Matthew Rhys and Matthew Good did a. A wine show that I really recommend is just.

B (26:27)

Wait, what?

A (26:28)

Yeah, it's just the two of them going around and getting trash. Like it's like a travel wine drinking show where the two of them like go around, drink wine, get absolutely trash hammered. And it's.

B (26:41)

How did I not know about like these are two of my guys and I just missed it.

A (26:44)

Welcome. Welcome to the joys of that.

D (26:49)

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E (27:19)

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B (28:01)

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Just so many good brands. I get an extra 5% off with my Nordstrom credit card.

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A (28:17)

Okay, let's talk about Claire Danes.

B (28:20)

I mean, one of the queens. And Joe for you and I. I mean, I think the first show we ever potted about together was Fleischman is in trouble. So a real return to form for you and I really with our good friend Claire.

A (28:33)

Who also spoiler is Both unraveling and not believed in that show.

B (28:42)

Shocker.

A (28:43)

This is a. This is a common theme for. For Claire.

B (28:47)

Can I ask you a question about the unraveling in this show, though? Like, if you.

A (28:50)

I would really enjoy that if you did ask me a question.

B (28:52)

If you lived in a place that had wallpaper that was this busy and this much stuff on the walls, wouldn't you also be unraveling if my house.

A (29:01)

Reeked of sewage at all times? Would I not be unraveling if.

B (29:05)

If the dirt of your past was burbling up through the drains? Like, could you live with the metaphor?

A (29:10)

Well, what I love is, like, when Nina comes by with a pie and Aggie like, apologizes the fact that she's having plumbing issues in the house smells bad. And Nina, like, somewhat. But, like, is like, no, your house is charming, like, does a really good job. And then immediately after Rick breaks in, and it's just, like, you get the first real sense of how much it absolutely reeks in that house when Rick is, like, doing a B and E and also can't breathe because it's so disgusting in there.

B (29:41)

But even. Even Nina does, like, a quick, like, little once. Once Aggie turns the corner kind of a little, hold her nose, hand, wave, like, oh, my God, this is so bad. I just can't say it out loud.

A (29:49)

And it's just so interesting that, like, we knew that. We saw the suit. We saw her get, like, splattered with the sewage. Like, we saw it happen. But, like, if it reeks that bad, then, like, her clothing smells like that. Like, when she goes out into the world, all of her beautiful drapey woolen sweaters and coats and stuff like that reek of sewage. And that's just, like, a really interesting detail of this particular story. If it were me, and I understand why she lives there. She lives there because her son died while living in that house and had. She has preserved his room in amber and, like, can't let go of the house because it means letting go of the dream she had of starting a family with Shelly or ex and Cooper, her son, and all of that sort of stuff like that. But I like her editor. I was just sort of, like, screaming through the phone, like, selling, please sell that house.

B (30:41)

Sell the haunted house, please.

A (30:42)

Yeah, sell the haunted. I also love. I mean, that house looked so. I mean, it was so beautiful. Yeah, absolutely beautiful, but also like a little ramshackle, you know, like the. The paint's peeling on the outside and stuff like that. So, yeah, Claire Danes is great in this. Guess what? Surprise. Claire Danes is great in something. She's great in this absolutely iconic D. I think this is the best thing I've seen Claire Danes in. Just like, best suited for her since Homeland, I would say since the first couple seasons of Homeland.

B (31:17)

She says a lot more to do here. Cause you write that she does play some version of this sort of freakout basically all the time, but this rounds it out, I think where you get the freakouts, you get. I thought the scene in which she is giving apologizing to Shelley through the crack in the door is just arresting. Must see television. And that's. She is freaking out there, but it is coming from a different place. And it's almost like she was freaking out and she took a second to breathe and she's saying the things that she always wanted to say and still gets the door slammed in her face. And it's just. That's heartbreaking in a way that Claire Dane's then spiraling can only be heartbreaking.

A (31:53)

And I would say that Natalie Morales as Shelley. And I love Natalie. I think she's great. Her performance in that scene is so good. Her absolute devastation of, like, listening to this. I think on a certain level, believing Maggie about certain things, but still not. Not being able to offer that hand. Because sometimes you just like someone's drowning and you. And you can't hold on to them anymore. Yeah, I thought. I thought that was. All that stuff was really good. I'm just like, I'm happy. Okay, here's my question. She's so good at this. We've seen her do it again and again, but this is not all she's ever done in her life. You know, like, especially earlier in her career, she. She had far more varied subjects to deal with. Do you want to see her do more of this since she's the best to ever do this very specific thing, or would you like to see? I mean, she did. I did watch the Apple show she did called the Essex Serpent, and it wasn't particularly great. But, like, do you want something else from Claire to be her next project, or are you, like, keep on doing what you do, Claire? No one does it like you.

B (33:06)

I would definitely take a wider range for one. We have enough on tape again also in Amber that I can just turn back to any of these performances anytime I want. We know she can go back to it and dial it back up if she ever wants to do that again. But, like, there is a range of performance that has eluded her, I would guess On a casting level, like you and I were talking about this, that this is a script that kind of reads, please put a Claire Danes type in this movie. And they just got Claire Danes, but where's the script that's like, we want a steely Cate Blanchett type. And it's like Claire Danes isn't Cate Blanchett, but she has a buttoned up, like very polished kind of performance style that could fill a similar role. Right. Like you can even see it in this, in like the photo on her books, like, dust jacket cover. It's like there's. There's a headshot version of Claire Danes. It's like, you know, woman who kind of has it together but kind of doesn't in a turtleneck. Like, that doesn't have to be spiraling and making conspiracy boards.

A (34:04)

I was curious for you, Rob. So as we mentioned, the creator of the show is. Is a novelist, has written novels. Rob, I know you're. You don't read fiction or write fiction, but you are a writer. How did all of the sort of like grappling with the blank page stuff go for you?

B (34:21)

I actually thought it was quite good.

A (34:23)

Yeah.

B (34:23)

And I think ultimately, I think the risk you run with this kind of story is anytime you have to read the writing out loud, it sounds ridiculous. I think the parts that they read out loud that are supposed to sound ridiculous do. And the rest of it actually does sound fairly compelling to me. Like, I think there's actually some good writing now. It's not all that way. There's one line, especially at the very end when she's doing her reading, where Aggie says, reading from her own book, Niall smelled my bloodlust and midwifed that story into being. I mean, fucking gross. That's just disgusting. I'm sorry. No, absolutely not.

A (35:01)

It's not great. It's not great. I called her editor. It's her literary agent, played by Deirdre o' Connell, who's having such a two years. She's unhinged and great. In Eddington. She's unhinged and great. She's like sort of the elder stateswoman of, of the Claire Danes sort of like manic energy in the Penguin. She was so good in the Penguin as Colin Farrell's mom. The Penguin's mother.

B (35:31)

And what a juicy part. The Penguin's mother.

A (35:33)

She's really good at it. She's so. Did you watch the Penguin?

B (35:36)

I haven't seen it. I don't doubt it. It's something about being cast as the Penguin's Mother, that is very indicative of where we are right now.

A (35:43)

Yes, it's. Well, I've been told it was very like Liv Soprano, but you. And I don't know that much about Liz Soprano. Don't even know that reference, you know, but she. I think she's really good in this and I think the, you know, she's. She's not in it that much. She's mostly on the other side of the phone from. From Aggie. But that tension of I've lied to my literary agent about how much of my. I'm like three years past my due date. I've lied about how much I have. I have nothing.

B (36:18)

I have like nothing show nothing.

A (36:21)

I have a. I have like post its on the wall, but I have nothing of my Scalia Ginsburg and I'm asking for an another advance on my advance. That anxiety that pulled out of me of like I'm so past my due date and I have nothing and I have to tell someone that I already told I had something that actually I have nothing. That's it.

B (36:44)

I hate it. I hate it. And I. It was very effective. Yeah, but I hate it.

A (36:49)

Are. You're like a. You're like a meet his deadlines kind of guy though, right? Like.

B (36:53)

Okay, no comment on that.

A (36:55)

Okay. All right.

B (36:56)

Absolutely no comment.

A (36:57)

I will say I am not and never have been. And this is like, this is the sort of outside version of like a nightmare space that I've lived in in my life around deadlines for writing work. So yeah, this, this produced more anxiety in me than. Than many other murdery aspects of this. Of this show.

B (37:17)

I will say the murdery aspects though, do create some of that too. I think the show is actually really effective, just sort of putting you on edge constantly. And some of that is like Matthew Reese will just like pop up in a window behind Claire Danes sometimes.

A (37:29)

Oh my God.

B (37:30)

It like there are like those sort of jump scare moments. But I could tell the show was having an effect on me because I was just at that like heightened level of awareness and sensitivity when I would turn it off. So something in the alchemy of this show, whether it's the writer anxiety or the murder anxiety, was definitely like messing with my system.

A (37:48)

One of the things I loved. You mentioned the FBI agent Brian Abbott who shows up drunk to Aggies back door. A moment that I loved really early on in the show is he shows up drunk, disheveled, and then she like looks him up and you see the photo of what he looked like when he started this investigation. And it's just sort of like sharp of jaw, clean cut, like the whole world's in front of him sort of thing. And this is a man who does not survive the season, but one might say was like already basically dead when, when this show started. And. And so this evidence of no matter whether or not Nile Jarvis killed his wife early on, what seems evident to me is this is what happens to people who try to get close to him. Yeah, they get broken the way that Brian Abbott, you know, and they talked about him being an addict and like all this sort of stuff like that. But like, was that the case before he started? I, you know, I suspected based on how like personally he seemed to be taking everything I suspected like that he was romantically attached to Maddie in some way or another, the dead wife. And. And that goes back to like some of the quote unquote revelations that happened in the flashback episode where I was like, I feel like we already knew some more of this than they're expecting us to know. And I wonder how much of that is playing into the. The Netflix or current TV idea of we need to over explain things for people who are second screening this, et cetera.

B (39:18)

Like what is this show if that episode just doesn't exist? Like if you take out episode seven.

A (39:23)

Yeah.

B (39:24)

Is it just a richer experience having some belief in some of those like plot developments and also some ambiguity around some other ones? Like did we need all of those gaps filled? I don't know that we really did.

A (39:35)

I agree. I actually think you could just cut that entire episode out and it would be okay. I didn't need to know that Maddie was like, you know, informing to the FBI. Didn't know. Need to know. I definitely, with love and respect to Heddy and Park, who is an actress I really like. All of the Erica Breton stuff didn't work that well for me as the other FBI agent who has been sort of got into by Uncle Rick all and like she's got divorce drama going on with her family. It felt like we've talked about this before. It's like one extra character too far where I'm just sort of like, I don't have space for this storyline in my heart, I suppose. I don't know. What did you think?

B (40:18)

Well, it's coming from a good place too because it's like they have the extra character and so they're trying to explain her motivations as an actual human being. And so it's like, that's a good instinct.

A (40:27)

Yeah.

B (40:27)

But ultimately the FBI stuff I think is among the least successful part of the story, period. That's true of Brian Abbott too, who, I agree with you, like, the initial, his initial appearance of, like, who is this guy? Is he who he says? Like, what is his. Like, what is his situation in Deal? And seeing that photo is a really striking thing. But from that point, I just was always wanting to get back. To get back to Aggie and Niall ultimately, if they're together, absolutely. If Nina's in the mix. Absolutely. There were just more compelling characters on the board and those were not the most interesting ones to me, but I do think they contribute to this sense of who can you actually trust in this story, period? Because it's shown through the power that the Jarvis family has, they can kind of get out of almost anything.

A (41:10)

Right.

B (41:10)

That's not a straight up smoking gun. To the point that, I mean, for one, as far as Erica's concerned, I don't know why she would believe a word that Aggie says. Like, she showed up at her boyfriend's, her dead boyfriend's apartment, and there's a random woman in there, like, going through his stuff. Like, why would you believe anything she's saying? I don't know. I also have a question about, like, Aggie believes that this suicide note ripped out of the Burner journal is a smoking gun. And I'm just not sure it's a smoking gun. Like, that is circumstantial evidence at absolute best.

A (41:40)

At best, it's. I feel like it's sort of like, okay, let's say. I don't know, this is a labored metaphor. But like, let's say the. It's a box, a wooden box has been nailed shut. I feel like you can. You're prying off like one nail. If you have maybe. Right. You're like, you're just like putting your foot in the door of like, it's plausible.

B (42:00)

Yes.

A (42:01)

And how can we sort of follow this somewhere? But it's not.

B (42:05)

It's not going to open and shut.

A (42:06)

No, no, no, no, no.

B (42:07)

Like, if. If there's a world where she just has that evidence and goes to the authorities and thinks it's going to fix everything without the voice note, confession from the murderer, she gets absolutely nowhere.

A (42:18)

She's wrong. She's wrong. Okay. Anything else you want to talk about? Oh, and then there's also this other plot with an AOC esque figure, I would say, and Olivia Benitez, who I did like the reveal in the flashback of, you know, there's this Jarvis develop, like, building development that they're trying to get passed that it has opposition from city government. And it turns out they like literally need to build that building because it's literally where the body is buried, right? And they have like. It's not just our greed, our ambition, our legacy, which is sort of what we've been meant to believe all, all season. But it's like literally, Madeline's body is down there, so they have to finish building the building on top of her or else.

B (43:05)

Look, they love to literalize a metaphor in this show. Whether that's like, oh, your legacy is your children or your legacy is your big old building, or the only way to hide it is by feeding into those things. It's not the subtlest piece of art I've ever encountered, but I appreciated the tying of the loops.

A (43:23)

As we mentioned, it's 49 minutes into the first episode when the Dane's chin starts wobbling and. And doesn't stop until the end. It's really.

B (43:34)

Do you think it's hard for her? Like, is it hard to summon that particular thing? She can just turn it on and off like nothing.

A (43:40)

She's done it since she was a literal teenager on My so Called Life. Like, you know, it's just like, it's. She's so good at it. A prompt ahead for you was like, which felt very in honor of Bill Simmons. This felt like a very Bill Simmons thing to ask Best on screen crier is, does anyone beat Claire Danes as best on screen crier?

B (44:01)

I mean, she's a generational talent in this, in this particular way, especially, like, great across the board. But no one has ever done it like she has. And part of that is the longevity you talked about. I think Florence Pugh might be the heir, apparently. I think she's got a real shot. If she keeps sobbing and quivering and screaming into the void, maybe she has a chance. Personally, very close to my heart. The Leo Claire Danes cry off in Romeo and Juliet. Specifically, the Claire Danes line read, gun to her head, but not so long to speak, I long to die. It just doesn't get better than that. As far as emotive criers go, I.

A (44:40)

Like when we have similar answers. I definitely had Florence Pugh and when I think about Florence Pugh crying, I think of Midsommar. Like, that's sort of like the vision that's in my head. But.

B (44:50)

And that's like panic, fear, grief, everything. You know, it's like, it's a lot rolled into it.

A (44:56)

I was thinking about pairings because I also had Leo in Romeo and Juliet I am fortune's fool. Like all that sort of stuff. But like the, the feedback loop of Leo and Claire together. And Leo, it should be say earlier in his career, he doesn't do it as much anymore. But like he, you know, Basketball Diaries, like there's a number of like great young Leo crying performances.

B (45:15)

As once upon a time would tell you, Joe, he's still got it. You know, he could, he can still pull it out.

A (45:19)

That's different though. That's not as like, that's like tear, tear in the welling up. And we're talking about like crying.

B (45:26)

But you're absolutely right.

A (45:27)

That Claire Leo cry feedback of Romeo and Juliet. I was thinking about Florence Pugh and Andrew Garfield in Living Time. Like that, that cry out Andrew Garfield's a really good crier and that that sentimentality sort of ping ponging for them in that movie was extremely good. Similarly, on the pairing front, Carrie Coon and Justin Thoreau in the Leftovers, just very Rob and Joanna core. And then perhaps the most Rob and Joanna core. Alison Hannigan and Buffy Vampire Slayer. When Will cries, we cry.

B (46:01)

So it's a classic for a reason. It's undeniable. I also, I mean there's a bunch that we've kind of talked around or about as we've been going through through other prestige TV stuff. Like Kristen Bell and Veronica Mars is another one that anytime a character is that sort of steely and.

A (46:16)

Oh yeah.

B (46:17)

And then it feels like they have it all. They have all the answers or they always have an option. And then it's like all of a sudden everything just comes out at once. That's always really effective. I think Phoebe Waller Bridge at the end of Fleabag specifically is among the best to ever do it. This is an area where I think TV can hit in the same way a movie can and maybe even more so because of that time spent. Because you're getting to know these characters whether they're reserved or whether they cry all the time. It's like they can just press these buttons in a totally different way. And maybe this is recency bias for me talking Joe. But Henry Ian Cusick in Lost, specifically in the Constant. But I would say maybe that's not him crying, but me crying. There's something happening there as like in a. Again, more of a welling up kind of capacity.

A (47:01)

You answered. Pen Penny, you answered.

B (47:04)

It's just two people talking on a phone and I'm a mess. What's going on?

A (47:09)

I will say on the sort of like House of Our Front we're doing these, like, Nolan movie rewatches. So I would be remiss in not mentioning McConaughey and Interstellar, which is an all timer on screen.

B (47:20)

So good. It became a meme like, what are you supposed to do with that?

A (47:23)

And then, you know, I don't think he has the widest range in the world, honestly. Tom Holland, you know, when he decides to cry, it is tough to watch. So I don't know how much young Telemachus will be crying in the Odyssey, but I look forward to finding out.

B (47:43)

Maybe that will be a tearful movie. I mean, some of these, like. I mean, you could just say literally every person in Magnolia basically is kind of in this category. Also, Paul Mescal, I think, has a chance as another not up and coming at this point because he's pretty well established. But. But Elite crying, call it Daisy and.

A (48:00)

Normal people as a sort of once again, dynamic duo. My last one is. Is Violet Davis and Doubt. That is just like. That's a. Like. Okay, so if you want to talk about what Claire Danes does is she's got the chin wobble, which she can do before even a single tear starts falling, and then her whole face can crumple. All of that. Violet Davis committed to the sort of like, not running out of your nose kind of crying, which is just like a different kind of, you know, Justin Thoreau does it while singing Simon Garfunkel and the Leftovers. Like that just like you're drowning in your own tears, sort of chills.

B (48:40)

I mean, that's how you walk into a movie with Philip Seymour Hoffman in it, with Meryl Streep in it, and you steal it in like eight minutes.

A (48:47)

Yeah.

B (48:47)

And you just completely rip it out of their. Like, Viola Davis is unreal in doubt.

A (48:54)

All right. Anything else you want to say on the crying front? And then you had, like, one more sort of prompt that you wanted to do for this.

B (49:03)

I do. I want to. Before we even go to the last prompt, like, I want to spend one more beat on Nina. And in particular, like, Britney Snow. Britney Snow. Also. Also a really great sort of like, walking the edge of, like, is this lady a total bitch? Is she on my side? It's like, is she trying to appeal to me with the pie or the vinegar? You know, like, ultimately, she's one of those actors who I think can be really, really interesting in that way. And in particular, you talked about, you know, the gender dynamics and in particular having Claire Danes play a character who is gay and these early interactions she has with Nina of like, tenderly touching her ankle on the trail of like, this woman. Clearly, like, Aggie has not felt the touch of another human being in like five years. And the way they sort of play with that but sort of don't, I thought was interesting until they just sort of dropped the thread on it.

A (49:53)

I know the idea of hers is kind of. Because the proximity between her asking Aggie to go for a walk with her and Uncle Rick breaking in, which are. Which as it turns out, unrelated, but seems like she's like the honey pot to draw Aggie out of her house so Uncle Rick can break in that ankle scene. But then also what I loved is that when she then meets Shelly, the artist, Natalie Morales's character, I think Shelly was also attracted to her. I mean, she looks like Britney Snow. So that's like, you know, no duh. But I like this idea that she's just like walking around and all the way the gay women of. Of New York are just sort of like, oh, hello to you. And I think, you know, that's something, you know, whether you're a. A pitch Perfect truther or a hunting wives enthusiast, that is something that Britney Snow has been playing with for a little while. So.

B (50:50)

Absolutely. And I think ending the show with her, I thought was a really like her searching her baby's eyes for like, whatever it was she saw in Niall. That was like a great, like, not like Twilight Zone esque quite, but like, almost to that level of like, we solved the case, the bad guy went to jail, Everything is fine. Is it?

A (51:10)

Yeah, really good. Okay, your final prompt for us.

B (51:15)

My final prompt, Joe. I mean, very much inspired by the show, I would say. It has taken a very familiar trope. The. You are not so different, you and I. And it has modernized it. It is Kendrick Lamar did in a. Oh, you know what? That guy's not like us. He's not like us. They're not like us. I think they repeated that like three or four times in this series. And so I wanted. I wanted to see your favorite examples or go to examples for this. Like, you're not so different, you and I. Whether a direct conversation or like a thematic conversation in a show or a movie like this.

A (51:49)

Yeah, I think it's sort of cheesily done in the first episode when her face is like superimposed over the, like her reflection in her laptop over a photo of his face. Right, right. And like, he is the beast. Like, you know, know you want the vengeance, the bloodlust, the. All this sort of stuff like that is she capable of this? Him framing her for that. I think is all works really well like a lot of the other stuff. And again, as I mentioned, episode six, the sort of like drunken debauch night, I think that that is really good. Sort of we're not so different, you and I conversation. I mean, Heat is like a go to sort of dumb example, but not dumb.

B (52:31)

Wildly successful and the DNA of our ENT company. So please be respectful.

A (52:37)

The Devil Wears Prada.

B (52:39)

Sure.

A (52:39)

The end of the Devil Wears Prada. You know, Miranda Priestly basically says to to Andy, like, you already fucked over Emily Blunt. I don't know if you remember that. Like, you know, and he's like, I would never do that. She's like, you already did. We watched it happen in this movie. So I don't know who you think you are. And also I would say so that's like a very, like Chiclet core. And I will say on the sort of house of our sci fi core, I will give you one of my favorite episodes of Doctor who, which is Dalek, where Christopher Eccleston's Doctor, the ninth Doctor, has this sort of like a very literal, we're not the same. And the Dalek being like, I don't know, you did a genocide. I don't know if you remember that.

B (53:25)

You killed untold billions of people. And beings like the Doctor's hands are not clean, to say the least. But it is certainly all over sci fi. I think it's in almost every superhero franchise at this point. This is, I would say, maybe most famous for Spider Man, Green Goblin. Like Willem Dafoe has, like, this exact sort of exchange. Daredevil might take it to new heights by having the dueling Daredevil, Punisher, and Daredevil kingpin versions of this conversation just running in the background all the time. But just to make this conversation extra. Buffy, Joe. It's also like a Buffy, Spike and Buffy Faith thing happening.

A (54:02)

Buffy Faith, for sure.

B (54:03)

Absolutely. So. But I think my favorite version all time might be Skyfall. Like, it might be Bond and Silva. Like the Javier Bardem, Dark Fallen, MI6 agent version of that. It works for me. I mean, Javier Bardem works for me.

A (54:17)

To be honest, we never talked about Bond. Are you like a huge Bond enthusiast? Where are you on Bond?

B (54:24)

Middle. I think the movies are more bad than good, but the good ones are really good.

A (54:29)

And is Skyfall your favorite Bond movie?

B (54:32)

It's got to be up there. I love. I love Skyfall for sure. I will. I will write, you know, maybe if the hottest Take comes back. I'm going to come back with my. Tim Dalton was actually a good Bond. So you know I have my personal favorites in there for sure. I'm not going to defend like 80 year old Roger, Roger Moore with like an 18 year old girl. That's not going to happen. But, but look, it's a, it's a complicated franchise that I have very mixed feelings.

A (54:54)

I was really excited for your like Quantum of Solace was great actually. Take.

B (54:59)

No, it's a lot of mid in there.

A (55:02)

Yeah. I mean like it's, it's as you, as you said, it's, it's, it's a well worn trope.

B (55:09)

Yes. I mean it's basically all of Dexter. It's the whole show.

A (55:14)

Yeah. And I think, I think anyone who has like multi. Any superhero or any like Indiana Jones or anyone who has like a, you know, multiple nemeses in a row, they're usually some sort of dark mirror of the. Of course of the hero. This, this Am I capable of murder.

B (55:32)

Yeah.

A (55:33)

Idea inside of this show feels not, not different from anything we've seen before but like slightly distinct of just sort of like when Aggie gets framed, when he turns her side son's room into a murder room. Which is a great moment when she.

B (55:49)

Opens the door, such a great reveal.

A (55:51)

And you're just like holy shit, how did he do that? There was so much set deck he had to do in order to make this happen.

B (56:00)

A lot of arts and crafts needed to be done to make this possible.

A (56:04)

But you're, it's like one of those, one of those satisfying moments in movie or TV where you're like, yeah, there's no reason for most people in Aggie's life to not believe that she didn't do this. That was a quadruple negative. But she's so primed for this frame job. It's pretty impressive.

B (56:23)

So yeah, I mean all the signs are there pointing back to her in a way that makes it not only is that reveal super fun, but it creates the how on earth is this character possibly gonna get out of this conundrum? And it quickly becomes clear that Nina is sort of her only and last option. But I think part of the reason the show is so successful is because there is that seed of something. Not just that other people would believe it, but there is something in Aggie that wants vengeance. And there is. And to the point that she has terrorized this kid who is responsible one way or another, drunk or not, for the death of her son. And what Niall represents To me in this story, for her and for almost everybody is like, what happens if your intrusive thoughts win? Like, that little voice in the back of your head, whether it's telling you to hurl yourself off the building, whether it's telling you to take vengeance for your dead kid. Like, what if you listen to that part all the time? Because Niall seems to listen to it all the time and get away with it.

A (57:17)

Please hang with me on this comparison. A friend of mine likes to talk about Taylor Swift as a permission slip.

B (57:25)

To be Nile Jarvis.

A (57:28)

I was really hoping you would say the Niles Jarvis of the pop world. Permission slip to be your most histrionically sentimental self. Right. You know, this idea for like. Like, especially her young female fans of, like, it's okay. Like, emotions. Okay. Like, being. Being. This is okay. And so, yeah, Nile Jarvis is this, like, demented sort of like that bloodlust you feel. I get it. Like, is your understanding then that he kidnapped, eventually killed, but kidnapped this kid to have as leverage to potentially frame her eventually, at the end of the day, or just because it was, like, a fun thing for him to do or as a favorite, like, I almost initially, I was like, was this, like a demented, like, I'm doing you a solid.

B (58:20)

Yeah.

A (58:20)

Sort of gesture? What do you think?

B (58:22)

I think it was closer to that. Or like, the cat who brings you the dead bird as a gift.

A (58:27)

Yeah. Yeah. You didn't want this? This isn't what you wanted?

B (58:31)

No. It seemed like this is what you wanted. I don't know what to tell you, especially at that point in the story, like you talked about earlier, that their relationship is not exactly sexual, but there is this weird psychological link between them. And at that point, it's very much this flirtation. Right. They are feeling each other out. They're just kind of getting to know each other, and she has expressed this wish, and he makes it happen whether she meant it or not. And it's on one hand like an ab test, are you really like me or not? And on the other hand, it's like this gesture that I think he thought would deepen their weird, sick bond that he either was real or imagined. And ultimately, Aggie's like, yeah, maybe this is a little too far. Maybe I wasn't quite into the murdery parts of what you got going on.

A (59:12)

She's like, I'll let you order me some chicken pomodoro, but I'm not sure I'm gonna let you murder someone for me. Thanks so much. Anything else you want to Say about the beast in me.

B (59:22)

I have one final question for you, Joe, please. If you were a birder like Maddie, and you were sitting out on your New York balcony and a pigeon landed, would you sketch the pigeon?

A (59:35)

If I didn't have a pigeon in my little Bird a day book, I would to complete the set, you know.

B (59:41)

But is it a set for the most basic ass bird in existence? Basically, like, again, no shots fired at the pigeon community. But it's like, do you really need to sketch the pigeon?

A (59:52)

Can I share with you one of my favorite Mallory Rubin stories, please? Which we have talked about on House of our. But she and I were in Chicago and we were walking to a theater and there was like a pigeon just like sort of landed in front of us. And she's like, ah, nature. And I was like, mallory just like sort of Aggie S does not leave the house. And so for her I was like, I'm sorry, did you just look at a pigeon in the middle of Chicago and be like, ah, nature. I have some questions for Maddie about her like, Afghan, sort of. I mean, we'll get back to Afghans when we return to Pluribus later this week. We've got many Afghan emails after your query, Rob, but Maddie's sitting out there, she's so cold and she's got like one of the snuggly warm, warmest looking blanket on top of her. And I'm just sort of like, maddie, what are we, what are we doing? That's a question I think Maddie asked herself a lot. Okay.

B (60:53)

I think so.

A (60:54)

What am I doing? Okay, we'll be back for Pluribus and maybe some other things we'll see. The holidays are upon us though, so. So we shall see.

B (61:06)

And if there's anything out there that you're loving that we're not covering, email us@prestigetvpotify.com and if you are a birder and you are sketching or not sketching the most basic ass birds, I would like to hear about it personally. You know, don't you think even the.

A (61:19)

Most basic ass birds deserve like a moment of reflection?

B (61:23)

This journal only has 40 pages in it. I'm an avid birder.

A (61:28)

If you only have one volume of your birder journal as you go on your on your journey.

B (61:33)

I'm just saying if you see something every look, maybe, maybe this is me looking at it the wrong way. That there is everyday beauty anywhere you look and you just need to dedicate the time to appreciate it. Yeah, I don't know that sketching a pigeon is going to bring me to that place.

A (61:46)

Okay, can I just say to you, Rob, like, I support you in your artistic view of the world, but pigeons are. When they're not sort of, like, actively molting, kind of beautiful. They have these, like, iridescent necks. Like, there's a beauty in a pigeon.

B (62:03)

I mean, do you know why they're iridescent? Oh, isn't that, like, weird bird oil? That's, like, basically existing filth. Look, again, this is. This is conjecture on my part. I don't want to be sued by the pigeons.

A (62:18)

I mean, you'll be hearing from a pigeon lawyer for sure. But here's the bottom line about pigeons. We did this to them. We domesticated them, and we turned them into, like, messengers for us. And then we abandoned them and called them vermin. So, like, we're the village here. Look in the mirror, Rob Mahoney.

B (62:38)

The beast is in us, it turns out.

A (62:41)

Absolutely. All right, so thank you to Donnie Beachum for his work on this episode. Thank you to Justin Zales, as ever, for managing the speed. Thanks to Bill Simmons for texting us on a Sunday and being like, hey, guys, I watched a really good show. You should watch it. We did. And we'll see you for Pluribus and some donut licking on Friday. Bye.