‘Pluribus’ Episode 4: Carol’s Truth Serum

Summary

The Prestige TV Podcast

‘Pluribus’ Episode 4: Carol’s Truth Serum

Host: Joanna Robinson
Guest: Rob Mahoney
Date: November 21, 2025

---

Episode Overview

In this engaging deep-dive, Joanna Robinson and Rob Mahoney break down Episode 4 of Pluribus, “Please Carol,” written by Alison Tatlock and directed by Zetna Fuentes. They explore the slow-building narrative momentum as Carol wrestles with grief, individuality, and existential dread amid the show’s hive-mind apocalypse. This week, the pair explore fan correspondence, discuss thematic parallels to other works, analyze key character beats—especially Carol’s attempts to scientifically investigate her oppressors—and dissect several standout set pieces, including the much-anticipated "truth serum" scene.

---

Key Discussion Points and Insights

1. Opening Banter & Listener Callbacks

• Playful Apologies: Joanna and Rob address Rob’s earlier inaccurate “pigeon facts” with comedic mutual ribbing (00:18–01:02).
• Listener Engagement: The hosts highlight the show’s lively email culture, reading inventive fan suggestions—from how listeners would use hive-mind powers (“I want them to remake Star Wars until I like it”) to what food would lure them during an apocalypse ("Pop Tarts and Hot Pockets" vs. "Whataburger" vs. "Jack in the Box" chicken sandwich) (02:40–04:44).
  • Quote (Joanna, 03:08): “I just had this vision of Ol with, like, a zombified, like, Oscar Isaac at his disposal. And he’s just like, again, again, give me the Poe Dameron story…”

2. The “Unlicked” and Listener Terms

• Fan Vocabulary: Multiple emails debate what to call those not (literally/metaphorically) “licked” by the hive mind. “Unlicked” emerges as a favorite term for Carol and others resisting the collective (05:54–06:45).
  • Quote (Joanna, 06:10): “I really like that. The unlicked. You know what I mean?”
  • Rob (06:19): “They were metaphorically licked by this alien plot, you know what I mean?”

3. The Allusion Corner: Show Comparisons

• Listeners flooded the inbox with possible genre forebears and comps—Star Trek’s Borg, The Good Place, The X-Files’ genie episode, Romancing the Stone, The Matrix, Doctor Who, and Brave New World among them (06:22–09:47).
  • Quote (Rob, 07:12): “I would say this show is more in the aftermath of that. It’s like, okay, mankind has already been sort of wiped out, and now you have the empty expanse... What are you gonna do with all that?”
  • On “The Good Place” comp (Rob, 09:49): “Now that we are in full-on, like, helpful Janet, get me heroin mode of this show. Like, we are—we’re really in it.”

4. Menusnos in Paraguay/Colombia: Portrait of Isolation

• Introduction to Menusnos: The episode opens with a tense, largely wordless sequence of Menusnos (played by a Colombian actor), showing his extreme, almost desperate independence contrasted with Carol’s more performative self-reliance (10:54–12:41).

  • Quote (Rob, 11:29): “I can’t watch these sorts of introductions anymore and not think of that very, like, process-oriented guy in quarantine… I mean, we learn a lot about this character with very little dialogue.”

• Meticulous Survival: Discussion of Menusnos’ daily routine (tape, locks, weighing food scraps, eating dog food), his stoic forbearance (16:07), and his fundamental skepticism toward any collective—regardless of nationality (Champions rugged skepticism as not uniquely American).

  • Quote (Rob, 15:09): “There are people all around the world who are skeptical of authority… It’s totally understandable… to say, you know what? Like, I’m not buying what you’re selling.”

• Performance Note: The hosts credit Carlos Manuel Veska’s performance in making the dog food scene both revolting and deeply human (16:48–17:16).

5. Carol’s Scientific Approach: The Whiteboard Scenes

• Carol’s Investigation: Carol uses her home whiteboard as a crime scene analyst, listing rules about the hive mind:

  • “Eager to please”

  • “Would give me an atom bomb”

  • “Can’t kill—not a fly”

  • “Can’t play faves”

  • “Trying to change me”

  • “Really honest / can’t lie” (22:41–27:16)

  • Quote (Joanna, 27:16): “Trying to change me. Which I think is, like, so key. And something that I think some people are like, ‘why wouldn’t you want to join?’ I’m just like, ‘why would you let someone reprogram you?’”

• Meta-literary Commentary: Carol’s internal disdain for her readers parallels her skepticism of the hive mind, who treat her like a child—as does her own character, Helen (“She sees herself as Carol’s first line of defense”) (24:48–31:22).

  • Quote (Rob, 31:24): “It’s protecting a person from something that they don’t want to be protected from, which is their own creativity and expression and self. Like, how can you do that to someone even when you love them?”

6. The Hive Mind’s Rules and Abilities

• Boundaries and Manipulation: Carol’s heated exchange with the hive-mind collective outside her home underscores their tendency to stretch consent (“you nodded absently”) and to treat her like a misbehaving child (21:42–22:04, 22:52).
  • Quote (Rob, 22:03): “There is an infantilization of this person who is one of the few unlicht left on the planet… they believe… they know what’s right for her… even if that is a Biological imperative telling them to believe it.”

7. The “Truth Serum” Set Piece (Thiopental Sodium & Pharmacy)

• Dark Comedy: Carol manipulates the hive to acquire truth serum (thiopental sodium/heroin), leading to comedic asides about her impressive knowledge of elixirs and her “sophomore year heroin era” (40:49–44:14), while also risking Zoja’s health for critical answers.

  • Quote (Rob, 41:09): “We need her to really dig in…Yell at Zojja again, risking the fate of who knows how many people. Inject her again and see what happens.”
  • Quote (Joanna, 43:44): “The fact that Carol did heroin sophomore year…what is Carol’s…her history with drugs…We keep getting these, like, hints of the darkness in her past, you know?”

• Self-Reflection: Carol’s self-taped, drugged "truth serum" confession (“I’m not so bad, right?”) surprises her and emphasizes her vulnerability (42:13–42:56).

  • Quote (Joanna): “It’s almost like, revelatory to—like, Carol can’t hide from her intrusive thoughts when she has taped them for herself.”

8. Hive Mind and Art: The Debate over Value

• Art, Snobbery, and Validation: A nuanced discussion about whether "sloppy" or “non-Shakespeare” art matters, highlighting how even “bad” art can save lives—like Moira’s experience with the Waikaro books (32:01–35:12).
  • Quote (Rob, 34:36): “If you could create the worst book ever written and it saves someone from killing themselves, like, that is a huge net win in the grand scheme of the universe.”

9. Conversion Therapy Parallel: Trauma and the Hive Mind

• Explicit Allegory: Carol recognizes the hive’s attempts to recruit "the unlicked" as akin to conversion therapy, dredging up explicit parallels with her own queer trauma and closet—“fixing” her for her own good (35:57–38:10).

  • Quote (Rob, 36:15): “…where would someone like Carol have heard that before? Where would she have heard the idea that she is someone who needs to be fixed?”

• Romantasy and Queer Identity: Joanna notes that the Romantasy genre is not as monolithically queer-accepting as outsiders might think, adding further depth to Carol’s secrecy and wounds (38:46–39:39).

10. Climactic Hospital Scene: Empathy Weaponized & Risk

• Empathy or Manipulation?: In her final confrontation with Zoja, the hive claims, “We have been you, but you haven’t been us. We know what it means to be alone and to suffer.” The hosts question whether a collective could ever really understand individual pain (46:16–47:38).

  • Quote (Rob, 46:37): “Is that something that the hive mind is even capable of?”

• Production Note: The person who saves Zoja in the hospital sequence is Rosa Estrada, the real-life nurse who saved Bob Odenkirk’s life during Better Call Saul—a moving tribute that colored Rhea Seehorn’s emotional performance (47:38–49:21).

• White-Knuckle Tension: Carol’s “Back up! I have agency!” breakdown in front of a silent, unsmiling crowd delivers the episode’s emotional high (49:38).

---

Notable Quotes and Memorable Moments

• On Carol’s whiteboard (Rob, 23:40): “Carol so desperately wants to kill Rabban and is looking for any permission to do it, including from her whiteboard. Effectively, Rabban dies again, this time for real. But then ask Val, right? Like, am I allowed?”
• On literary disdain (Joanna, 24:48): “…she has such disdain, partially maybe, connected to the way in which she has so much disdain for her readers. She is someone who has been crafting the perfect meal under a cloche…”
• On hive mind rules (Joanna, 27:16): “Can’t lie moment—but a lot of assumptions here. Kind of taking these people at their word…”
• On Helen as Carol’s protector (Joanna, 29:19): “Helen was someone who protected Carol from being hurt, that Carol was someone who, like, walked around so easily hurt. And so her bitterness and her bad attitude are really this sort of like, protective shell.”
• On ‘Moira & the Power of Art’ (Rob, 34:36): “If you could create the worst book ever written and it saves someone from killing themselves, like, that is a huge net win in the grand scheme of the universe.”
• On conversion therapy parallel (Rob, 36:15): “You are drowning in your own life. And we have the solution…If you simply give everything you are over to us and never be a person ever again.”
• On agency and risk (Joanna, 49:38): “Very scary sequence—Carol screaming like, ‘Backup, I have agency!’ but not feeling confident…”

---

Timestamps for Important Segments

| Timestamp | Segment Description | |-----------|--------------------| | 00:13 | Pigeon apology & recurring host banter | | 02:40 | Listener emails & hive mind “cloche” food picks | | 05:54 | Emergence of “Unlicked” as fandom term | | 06:22 | Show comps: Star Trek, The Good Place, X-Files, etc. | | 10:54 | Menusnos in Paraguay: Isolation and survival | | 16:48 | Dog food scene: Actor notes | | 22:41 | Carol’s whiteboard analysis | | 27:16 | Hive mind rules (“Trying to change me”) | | 29:19 | Helen as Carol’s emotional shield | | 35:57 | Conversion therapy/coming out allegory | | 40:49 | Truth serum & comedy in the pharmacy | | 42:13 | Carol’s self-revelatory truth serum “tape” | | 46:16 | Final confrontation: Hive empathy vs. true understanding | | 47:38 | Production notes: Bob Odenkirk’s real-life savior cameo | | 49:38 | Carol’s “I have agency!” hospital breakdown |

---

Additional Highlights

• Visual Design: Both hosts swoon over Waikaro’s home sliding whiteboard setup: “I would die to have this, come on! Beautiful… the glorious wood inlay with the handle…” (23:12–23:21)
• Production Cameos: The Mayor of Albuquerque and real-life medical heroes both cameo, illustrating the show’s deep ties to its filming community (21:16, 47:38).

---

Closing and Final Thoughts

• The hosts reflect on their love for the show’s casting of character actors (Jeff Hiller’s “Larry” in particular) and speculate which minor guest stars might reappear—a “fun, recurring world-building hook” (51:12–52:14).
• They muse about hive-mind hygiene (“Do the unlicked shower?”), Carol’s possible soft spot for matching sweatsuits, and encourage further listener emails and theories (“[e-mail]”) (52:43–53:09).

---

Tone & Style

The dialogue is breezy, witty, geek-out-friendly, and deeply empathetic, often toggling between dry humor (especially around food, pigeons, and corporate AI) and incisive literary/TV analysis.

---

End of Summary.

Transcript

[A]

Hello. Welcome back to the Prestige TV podcast feed. I'm Joanna Robinson.

[B]

I'm Rob Mahoney.

[A]

And I believe we are here today to issue an apology to the pigeon community. Rob Mahoney.

[B]

Are we, though?

[A]

Are we? If you did not hear earlier this week, in the podcast episode we did about the Netflix series the Beast in Me, Rob dropped some inaccurate pigeon facts on the pod. So Mr. Burger Kabob himself, would you like to answer for your crimes?

[B]

You know, sometimes we swing and miss. Sometimes we think that what seems to be a shiny patch on a pigeon is oil, when in fact it is natural iridescent. So I salute the pigeons and all the shiny work that they're doing. I happen to be wrong on this one, but I maintain that a pigeon is not a spectacular bird that is worth doodling in your little birding journal.

[A]

Okay, great, great. He's just doubling down on his pigeon slander.

[B]

Okay, this is what we do in 2025. Joe.

[A]

We're here to talk about Pluribus episode four, titled Please Carol, written by Alison Tatlock and directed by Zetna Fuentes. And how did you like this episode? R.A. i liked it.

[B]

I mean, I think we're kind of moving the chains at this point. Right. The plot is starting to click into place. I would say this is the episode where Carol sort of starts to take control or attempt to, of her circumstances, which is exciting, but it's not like the most action packed episode I've ever seen one.

[A]

I mean, I think it's interesting because one of the responses we started getting from listeners was, why isn't Carol asking more questions? Or why isn't she trying, you know, harder to figure out an answer and stuff like that. So I think, you know, this is, you know, this week, to be fair.

[B]

She spent almost all of episode two asking lots of questions.

[A]

I agree, I agree.

[B]

But I think and is also grieving.

[A]

Her w. So, Rob, you and I agree, and I would say, I would say the grief continues inside of this episode. Certainly a lot of other things going on. I do want to zoom through some listener stuff. I will say last week we decided to move sort of like, what does this show remind me of? Corner to this week's episode. And I will say next week I'm going to get to a lot of the sports related emails we got because I do want to, like, serve the ringer audience.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

But I think we're going to move that to next week just because we have, like, plans need to get through this week.

[B]

But on that note, I Just want to say the golfers.

[A]

You.

[B]

You've been. You've been heard. You've been heard. Absolutely. We get it. We understand your perspective, although. Do we? But also keep them coming. Prestige tvotify.com and licking the donutmail.com.

[A]

I thought some of the golfer emails were actually really good. First of all, our listener Ali, I just like the way he phrased this. He said I would what he would do if he had access to the hive mind. He said I would get them to remake the Star wars trilogy series until I liked it. And that was the whole email. And I just had this vision of Ol with, like, a zombified, like, Oscar Isaac at his disposal. And he's just like, again, again, Give me the Poe Dameron story. I want, I don't know, just the.

[B]

Full David Fincher treatment. Take number 183.

[A]

Exactly. Our listener Morgan was saying that she, you know, we got a lot of answers to, like, sort of what would be under your very special cloche that the hive mind would leave at your front doorstep. A lot of, like, highbrow, lovely answers. And then Morgan's like, Pop Tarts and Hot Pockets or honey butter chicken biscuit. So I guess my. My question to you, Rob Mahoney, foodie extraordinaire, my favorite foodie. What trash food would entice you under a cloche on your doorstep?

[B]

First of all, I want to say this. The implication on your part that a honey butter chicken biscuit is trash food is insulting to my culture, and I won't accept it. Okay, you know, you're just gonna have to own that one. But along those lines, look, there's no question where my allegiances lie. And it would be a whataburger. It would definitely be whataburger of some variety, I think. I would not go honey butter chicken biscuit, but honey barbecue chicken strip sandwich, its dear relative, the cousin of the family. Just a delightful, delightful way to welcome your hive mind apocalypse, for sure.

[A]

I'm really upset with myself because I was like, wow, I wonder what Rob is gonna say. And then he started talking. I was like, of course it's Whataburger. Of course it is.

[B]

But where are you going, Joe? What's under. What's under your. What's under my quote unquote, trash Food, clothes, trash.

[A]

I. Okay. The true, honest heart of me.

[B]

That's what we're here for.

[A]

Says it's a spicy, crispy chicken sandwich from Jack in the Box. That's. Wow. That's the go to.

[B]

I mean, at Least you're a step above Jack in the box tacos. You know, you're not going full bottom of the dumpster, just mid level dumpster.

[A]

I, for some reason I do not enjoy a beef product from a fast food joint. And I always go chicken sando. That's always my go to.

[B]

So Saf. For sure.

[A]

Yeah. Okay. Rob, would you also like to answer for your crimes to the Afghan community? Because we got many emails from listeners about. No, the use of the Afghan. Rob was questioning why would you have a blanket that has so many holes in it and. And fired up the Afghan community, I should say. And by Afghan community, I mean blanket lovers. And I should say we got many, many answers. A lot of them had to do with like weighted. Yeah, the feeling of. Of the weight on you while still having airflow. But we've got like a scientific answer from our listener Bernard about the way air, the sort of the weave of the Afghan traps the hot air in some way. Really peculiar science. What a mystery to me generally. And then last but not least, before we get to sort of like the other show comps, we got one more submission for the hive, the Unhive Mind. Name the carols and the minusnos of this world. Our listener Alex wrote in last week, but I think I missed the email. But our listener Laura wrote in this week with the subject line, stay unlicked, cabrones of her email. So I'd be Laura, I don't know. And she suggested the unlicked as for Carol, for bunousnos, et cetera, et cetera. So I really like that. The unlicked. You know what I mean?

[B]

It is good. I just think that there's lots of other unlucked people out there. You know, if many of them were infected via chemtrail, can we all lump them into a licking bucket?

[A]

They were metaphorically licked by.

[B]

They certainly were.

[A]

This alien plot, you know what I mean? So, okay, on this sort of other show comps, I should say we had a lot of people shouting out the Borg from Star Trek. We got a lot of people shouting at the Good Place. I know you wanted to talk about a specific X Files episode, Rob, do you want to mention that?

[B]

Oh, yeah. The season seven episode in which Mulder gets a genie lamp. I would butcher the title of the episode if I tried to pronounce it. So I simply will not. But it falls into this almost like monkey's paw tradition of you ask for a thing, but you have to overly specify the parameters or else you might accidentally wipe out all of Mankind kind of wish fulfillment. And I would say this show is more in the aftermath of that. It's like, okay, mankind has already been sort of wiped out, and now you have the empty expanse of America and the world as your playground. But what are you gonna do with all that?

[A]

But I think also asking for a hand grenade and maybe having to deeply specify, like, a, I was being sarcastic, but B, also don't give me a live hand grenade. I don't know.

[B]

But also of note about that X Files episode. It immediately sprang to mind for me after you and I talked about episodes one and two of Pluribus, and I looked it up, and of course, written and directed by Vince Gilligan. So you know, the man has interests.

[A]

On this week's episode. This is just like a perfect episode for Freeze Frame Mahoney. We get some whiteboard writing, and one of the rules that Carol writes down about the hive mind is can hurt a fly. And one of our listeners, Jessica, allegedly. Allegedly. One of our. One of our listeners, Jessica, a couple weeks ago mentioned Westworld, which is the sort of like, wouldn't. The I wouldn't hurt a fly, Evan Rachel Wood moment of the Westworld pilot where she then slaps a fly on the side of her, like, neck, is pretty phenomenal. Romancing the Stone was brought up. I don't know if you're a Romancing the Stone fan, Rob Mahoney.

[B]

What's. What's the comp on Romancing the Stone?

[A]

Kathleen Turner plays Joan Wilder, who is a romance novelist. And so it's just sort of like the plot of your book becomes the life you're living to a certain degree. There is a sexy pirate lady who looks just like the romance figure that you've been writing all these years. So I liked that comp as well.

[B]

It's been a minute for me. I need to revisit it for sure. I have to say, the Sandra Bullock, like, rip off attempted riff on that idea. The Lost City. Not as successful.

[A]

Not as great.

[B]

No. A little lame, unfortunately.

[A]

Romancing the Stone, absolute classic. Honestly, Craig suggested the Matrix, and I think the Matrix is interesting. Well, a couple people mentioned the Matrix, but I think the Matrix is most interesting because I was thinking about Joe Pantoliano's character from the first Matrix cypher and how much he would just be begging to join the collective.

[B]

He's like, only so long as they have the stakes.

[A]

They got the stakes. Yeah.

[B]

That guy wants his red meat, and as soon as it's gone, what is.

[A]

There for him exactly? Um, and last but not least, I'll just mention we got a couple do several Dr. Who comps. Dr. Who is great comp for what's going on here, of course. And then Brave New World was something that came up for a lot of people. So those are just merely some of the comps that were sent our way. Surely there are plenty more. Keep them coming. Licking the donut. Gmail.com. we still got hundreds of emails this week. They didn't, like, trickle off. So thank you for your emails. They're wonderful.

[B]

I would say the other one, Joe, that's been coming up a lot in the emails and also just anecdotally watching the show, like, the Good place is all over here.

[A]

Oh, yeah. Especially I mentioned at the top. Just like, quick.

[B]

Yeah, I know we've talked about it before and, like, especially the philosophical implications of episode two. But now that we are in full on, like, helpful Janet, get me heroine mode of this show. Like, we are. We're really in it.

[A]

Absolutely, absolutely. Let's start in Paraguay. And I should say we got an email from a listener, John, who's. I'm just gonna call our men in Paraguay, who just, like, sort of reported earlier on the previous miniso's call when we were only on the other side of it, and he was like, that guy sounds Colombian to me. Fun fact, because the actor is Colombian, they have decided to make that character Colombian in the official podcast. They're like, he's Colombian, but he lives in Paraguay. They, like, put a, like, very specific Colombian game in the set of, like, where he lives and stuff like that. So if you're like, they. And the reason they did that is because he's like, I can't do the Paraguay. It's very specific and I can't do it. And so they're like, okay, we'll make you Colombian. Let's just easy, easy peasy, do that. But I thought that was really interesting. John, if you want to continue to give us dispatches from Paraguay, we would love to hear them.

[B]

I actually heard a very similar story, Joe. Recently I was watching a Matthew Reiss interview to prepare for our Beast and Me pod, where he was talking about an episode of Columbo that he did early in his career where he was asked to flip accents. And it was simply like, but what if we just made you, you know, a man with a Welsh accent instead? Like, what if we just made this as simple for you as possible?

[A]

Yeah, exactly. Okay, so we get this extended sequence at the beginning with menusnos in Paraguay. We didn't get a clock. We're just here with him. He's checking radio frequencies. How did all of this work for you? Rob Mahoney as a character intro.

[B]

I mean, not to be the guy who just watched Lost recently, but I can't watch these sorts of introductions anymore and not think of that very like process oriented guy in quarantine. Sort of like methodical introduction. Yeah, I really liked it. I mean, we learn a lot about this character with very little dialogue. I was, I mean, in that vein, I was struck by the silence of this sequence kind of juxtaposed with the silence of the hive mind, right? Like we see dozens of people wordlessly stocking sprout shelves. And it is like a system, right? A system in action and like fully, fully actualized to its complete capability of what human beings are like, even. Even capable of imagining in terms of their ability to work together in this context, like logistically. And then here's a guy who in his silence is just like painfully alone and quite principled in what he is willing to do to engage with these quote, unquote humans, quote unquote aliens, whatever they are or not. Yeah, but it was just like, it was so alarming, especially coming from Carol's world where she is talking to herself, talking to Zoja, asking questions like she's. She's even more integrated in this circumstance than he is.

[A]

Exactly.

[B]

This man is like well and truly alone.

[A]

Here's like. I think it's so interesting because Carol's like, I am so doing it on my own. I am so independent. But as we mentioned this, the sprout stocking sequence last week was like so laughable. And then you compare her, her illusion of independence to Manusnos here, who is like the, the. The cleverness of. There's a single fly and that fly lets him know there's organic material left in a tin that he put. And he is so desperate that he will follow the fly to the lid of the can and then lick it and we'll get to the dog food in a second. But like, that lets us know so much about how he's deciding to live his life here and how fiercely independent he has decided to be. I don't know why he is weighing tape and the locks that he has, but that seems to be one of the right. It's like. Because it seems to be like 20 grams. Like he's weighing it.

[B]

I don't know.

[A]

Anyway, he's taking stock. He's got tape to put cardboard on all the windows. He's got Locks, because he's locking all the gates, but also breaking locks on the. On the storage units, et cetera, et cetera.

[B]

But leaving a polite note, he is a rule follower at his core.

[A]

I just thought it was interesting because we got several emails about this one specifically from our listener Jennifer, about Carol. Carol versus the other unlicht that she met in. In episode two. And this idea we talked about a little bit, but this idea of like, rugged American individualism is this. Is this show a critique of that is, you know, are the other unlicked people from communities, cultures where they. They value community and. And more than America does or something like that. But then we meet. I. Again, any listeners in Paraguay who want to let us know, tell me. But, like, I have not ever heard the phrase rugged individualists of Paraguay or Colombia for that matter. So, like, let me know if I'm missing something. But, like, I think having him be like, a more extreme example of just sort of undermines that idea that, like, we're talking about something very specifically. There are things about America that Carol that are very specifically American. But I think this idea of, like, I don't want to join your zombie horde that is infected by an alien virus. A lot of people are like, what's wrong with Carol? I'm like, what's wrong with you that you think something's wrong with Carol? But anyway, that's fine. But. So what do you think about adding menusness as an even more extreme example into the mix?

[B]

Well, I love that it adds a complexity to that sort of balance that you're talking about, where it's almost not like, rugged American individualism versus the collectivism of other nations. But there are people all around the world who are skeptical of authority, who are skeptical of specifically this very, like, I am telling you how to live your life and that I know what is best for you kind of authority. That that tact is taken by, you know, dictators the world over, by drug cartels, by people offering, quote, unquote protections. Like, it's totally understandable to me that someone anywhere in the world could want to batten down the hatches and lock themselves into a storage facility office and say, you know what? Like, I'm not buying what you're selling. And ultimately, like, that he has, like, he is. He's almost starving. Like, right. He is down to the dog food and the sugar packets portion of his diet.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And yet he's still flipping over the cloched play like he still wants no part of any of that, because to him clearly, this sort of independence is still more valuable.

[A]

Something I loved about that sequence that they talked about on the official pod was that, you know, watching him eat that dog food, it's all down to his performance. I mean, the dog food looks disgusting. And we. And anyone who's ever fed a pet wet food, like, knows that it smells a very particular way that I am not fond of personally.

[B]

I think I would go kibble in this circumstance if I had the.

[A]

Given the opportunity.

[B]

Yeah. The pet food shelves at my disposal. On my last food, I think I'm going kibble.

[A]

Vince Gilligan said something about how the fact that they had the dog food, and he's like, no, we need to make it more disgust. It needs to glisten more. And they had to, like, add, like, congealed broth to it or whatever. But. But it's. It's down to this guy's performance.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

To. To make us really feel this. So Carlos Manuel Veska, who goes by Veska, like, his revulsion really sells it. But what I loved that they talked about on the official pod was like, there's also this stoicism to him of, like, I'm just gonn. And that's not a show for anyone because there's literally no one there. So it's just for himself that he's like, I'm just gonna do it. This is what I'm gonna do. And I thought that was a really revealing, interesting character moment, you know, and.

[B]

It'S what makes him such a good counterpart, potentially for Carol, too. Right. Like, these are two people who are staunchly resisting whatever this kind of invasion or takeover is. But in his case, like, being starving, in principle, these are two great tastes that taste great together. Right.

[A]

These.

[B]

These things do kind of come in tandem. And so the idea that he is having the stiff upper lip, even for himself. I agree with you. Great character moment. Really nice introduction. But they're really slow rolling him into the story. I mean, we see the other side of his phone conversation with Carol Cubone and all, but ultimately, when is he gonna get into our main action? I'm curious to see.

[A]

I know there's this line that Carol has later when she's doing her investigation where she says something like, can one person do it? Can one person reverse the hive mind epidemic? And obviously.

[B]

Well, no, there's two keys and you have to turn them simultaneously.

[A]

I'm just saying, you know, so. Well, two things. I don't know what he's doing on the radio frequency front, necessarily.

[B]

It seems like he's just looking for human.

[A]

Right.

[B]

Freak. Like human broadcasts of some kind.

[A]

But then, like, did not want to talk to Carol.

[B]

No.

[A]

On the phone.

[B]

So very confusing from that perspective.

[A]

And then wrote Carol is Turkish question mark in his book. And I don't know if, like, her bad shitty American Spanish sounded somewhat Turkish to him or whatever. Anyway, I thought that was really funny.

[B]

I think, I thought, I thought it was a mishearing of her last name, basically.

[A]

Oh, of course.

[B]

Of course.

[A]

You're right.

[B]

So he. He thought, you know, he. He misunderstood what she was trying to articulate. Because, I mean, yeah, her Spanish is. Is wanting to say the least.

[A]

That's right. That's right. Okay. Meanwhile, back in Albuquerque, Carol, still blood spattered, walking around outside the hospital, gets into a car.

[B]

Yep.

[A]

It's crashed. It reeks. It's playing genie in a bottle.

[B]

And she's like a glitched out genie.

[A]

In a bottle, which is tough. So they talked about the official pod. Is that Carol was like, no, even I, a desperate person. I'm not desperate enough for this car, which smells bad. So she takes the cop car.

[B]

Not my pick. You know, if I had.

[A]

What are you picking?

[B]

I mean, anything else, frankly. Like, I think in this moment, you're either going for practicality, you know, the truck or the SUV or whatever is going to help you haul stuff that you need to haul or whatever the car of your dreams is. I don't have one of those personally, but I'm not going for the cop car with 24.7Zosia, you know, intercom access.

[A]

You don't have a. You don't have a dream car. You don't have a car that you like.

[B]

I'm just not a car guy.

[A]

You are not a car guy. That's true.

[B]

Distinctly not a car guy.

[A]

You have like, a very normal car. Okay, interesting.

[B]

See, that sounded bad. That sounded male. Like bad.

[A]

You know, just a normal.

[B]

Okay. Like, meh or.

[A]

No, no, I just mean you have like a normal person car. Not like, you're not like. I don't know. That's what I think of when I think you have like a very normal person car, which I think is a compliment. You're not like, trying to impress anyone with your car. Does that make sense?

[B]

You, on the other hand, Alfa Romeo. I've seen you roll up. I've seen you turn heads. This is just who you are, Joe.

[A]

Cherry red with a sort of like, glossy finish. Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. No, I also don't think I have like, a dream car. Looking the donut gmail.com, if you're like, what car would I. Would I steal given the chance? I kind of like the idea of taking the cop car, though, because it's just sort of like, I don't know, it's illicit. It's illicit to get even more illicit than just taking any old car. Is it? Taking a cop car and driving it around? You know what I mean?

[B]

It also kind of fits the, like, Carol as Karen taking it upon herself to serve and protect the entire planet, you know, subtext of all this, for sure.

[A]

Okay, so she rolls it back home. There's a cleaning room here. I have some fun facts for you. Not only is a recent Emmy winner, Jeff Hiller here, and we'll talk about him in a second. Great. Love to see him. Love him. And somebody somewhere that's the real mayor of Albuquerque, Tim Keller, the real mayor of Albuquerque, sweeping up in front of Carol's house. So they got. They got the Albuquerque mayor, and I.

[B]

Think when Vince Gilligan calls the real mayor of Albuquerque, you do answer.

[A]

Yeah. He's like, thanks for injecting so much money into our.

[B]

This man is a job creator.

[A]

Absolutely. Um, here's what really stood out to me in this outside the house moment. Who gave you permission to be in my house? You did. When you were riding the ambulance, you sort of nodded absently. So it's a give them a damn inch, they will take a mile sort of reveal about the. The hive mind. What do you think about that?

[B]

I mean, it was a hilarious exchange and kind of recollection of events. But you're absolutely right. It is. It is a given inch take a mile situation. It's also still a talk to Carol like she's a child situation. Whether it's the people outside, whether it's Zosia talking about, like, even later in this episode, she's like, do you. Did you. Do you like your police car? Like, do you like this new toy that you have?

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

There is an, like, an infantilization of this person who is one of the few unlicht left on the planet. And that is kind of what a parent does, is like the tacit understanding of, like, oh, I can do this because I am looking out for what's best for you. That's kind of the subtext. All that, to me, is not just like, oh, you nodded silently when you were panicked. It's like they. They believe so firmly and squarely in their mission that they know what's right for her. That they know what's right, even if that is a Biological imperative, telling them to believe it, that there's. There's really no wiggle room on it.

[A]

I'd like for. Like to note for the record that you just used unlicht casually and perfectly in a sentence.

[B]

So thank you.

[A]

Welcome, Rob. Okay. All right, freeze frame. Mahoney, Wakaro. Five notes on the whiteboard. What would you like to highlight here before we get to the sort of other notes that she puts on the whiteboard?

[B]

There's so many things. There's also so many things I wish were just a little more legible. Like, there's. There's a bit about the commercialization of the IRL spice trade that I'm like. I really wish I could make out exactly what she's saying here. First of all, I want to say this whole whiteboard setup, very jealous. I would love to have this in my home office.

[A]

I would die to have this come on. Beautiful. Like, functional to the sliding whiteboard. You could do that anywhere. But the glorious wood inlay with the.

[B]

Handle, really nice that Waikara money spends. You know, it really goes a long way. Makes a lot of people very happy. And you can see why, based on the contents of this whiteboard, I am most tickled by the fact that Carol so desperately wants to kill Rabban and is looking for any permission to do it, including from her whiteboard.

[A]

Effectively, Rabban dies again, this time for real. But then ask Val, right? Like, am I allowed?

[B]

Can I kill him? Am I allowed to do it?

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

My favorite plot note, or kind of like lord note that she has flagged is the mando via spice fruit. And she's wondering, is it a poison? Is it elixir? Double underlined. It's got to be a love potion. What else simply could it be, Joe?

[A]

Definitely a love potion. Love this. I will add it just as battle of wits at one point, near the sort of little things, cliffs of chartreuse. And underneath that, battle of wits. And then my favorite is just sort of, like, scrawled on the side, it just says Shakespeare reference. Yeah. And it's just like, I love that about Carol because she thinks she's so much smarter than the book she's writing. But she's like, I'm gonna put a Shakespeare reference in it. Nobody's gonna get it because these dummies who read my book don't know Shakespeare, et cetera, which we will obviously get to in a second.

[B]

But look, she's a literary woman. She did reread Twelfth Night in order to prepare to write this book. So Props to her. I also think we may have missed the boat. You know, licking the donut is maybe our greatest email of all time, but Killer sand flea men would not have been a bad alternative.

[A]

It's pretty good. Our listener Wren wrote in about this idea of, like, why Carol specifically might be a person who is so resistant to the pleasant, can we give you everything you want? Nature of the hive mind. And it's because she has such disdain, partially maybe, connected to the way in which she has so much disdain for her readers. She is someone who has been crafting the perfect meal under a cloche. For her, this is exactly what you want. You want exactly a lady who looks just like this. I know what smut you want. I know what you know flea men you want. I know what elixirs you want, etc.

[B]

They want to devour that space pirate, that's for sure.

[A]

Absolutely. And so this idea of, like, am I just to your infantilizing point that you keep rightly bringing up, are they treating me like one of my. One of my readers who I like, think so poorly.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

And I thought that was a really.

[B]

Interesting connection from Elise, and I love that take. I also love the beat, as Carol is kind of deciding before she, you know, goes to write her list of what she actually knows about the hive mind here. Like, she kind of thinks about erasing her winds of Waikaro prep for a second and then opts for the new whiteboard instead. And so, for the. The perspective, what you're just talking about Jo. Like, she hates these books, and she resents the people who love them. She has been miserable for who knows how long, and yet, even when the world is kind of over, she's still clinging to a life that made her so miserable. Or at least clinging to the idea that it could go back to a version of normal, I guess.

[A]

But, I mean, one does not simply think of the cliffs of chartreuse every day, Rob. You have to keep those golden ideas steady. But, yeah, what Ren wrote, ultimately, she would just be a slop consumer to be placated with slop. With the hive mind fully aware of exactly what flavor of slop is most likely to please. And I was just like, yep, okay, here we go. All right, so we slide over to the new whiteboard. These are the beats. What I know about them, Eager to please would give me an atom bomb. Can't kill not a fly can't play faves like all jerks the same. So I think she's considering herself a jerk in that moment. Obviously, Trying to change me. Which I think is, like, so key. And something that I think some people are like, why wouldn't you want to join? I'm just like, why would you let someone reprogram you? And we'll get to, of course, the conversion conversation later. And then really honest, which then turns into the sort of, like, can't lie moment.

[B]

But a lot of assumptions here. Kind of taking these people at their word and just kind of inferring. I mean, I don't know. I just think maybe. I think they are resolute in their mission. I think there might be wiggle room around some of these things. Like, yeah, they can't kill not a fly, but they'll let almost a billion people, incidentally, die. Like, that feels like important context.

[A]

That's true. That's great. They have all the lawyers in the hive mind, so they know all the loopholes of the rules, et cetera, et cetera. Then we get this interaction. Emmy winner Jeff Hiller is here in a very tight bike costume, Larry to his friends. And they have this great back and forth. I love to this sequence. And what Carol is doing here, this is. This is how racy Horn described on the official pod is. She's like. She's asking questions that she knows they know will displease her, but she suspects are true. I suspect that Helen doesn't like my book or doesn't respect my writing. I know they don't want to tell me that because they know it will upset me, but I think it's true. So where does the rubber meet the road in terms of, like, don't want to upset Carol, have to tell the truth. And that is the sort of trap she sets for Larry here to try to figure out this particular quirk of the rules.

[B]

And that's the moat she's in. The whole episode. It's kind of like Carol the scientist. It's a very. It's a very different disposition from what we've seen of her, which is mostly like downing vodka and sleeping on her couch. But here she is, like, trying to understand more about what is. What is in play, what can she do? What can she learn? And everything you said makes total sense and I think is represented in that performance. Like, she's going into this deliberately with an objective. Joe, do you feel like when she hears Helen's thoughts about the Waikaro books and especially her novel, like, to your point, and what they said on the official pod, she knows on some level what she's gonna hear? But there's also the confirmation of actually hearing it. Do you think that actually hurts Carol in that moment or do you think her expectations kind of steel her from that?

[A]

I think it hurts her. And I think it was interesting. Miriam Shore, who plays Helen, did sort of like a bonus episode of the official podcast this week. And most of it was just sort of like, what a pleasure to be here. But the most, I think I thought, insightful thing she said was that Helen was someone who. Who protected Carol from being hurt, that Carol was someone who like, walked around so easily hurt. And so her bitterness and her bad attitude are really this sort of like, protective shell. And that is Helen's job to sort of try to sh. Too sort of jolly or out of bad moods or all these other things. And so Helen saw herself as like, she's the softer hearted person, but she is Carol's first line of defense. And so she is like, defenseless without Helen there. But I think Carol is, for all of her bitterness, for all of her cynicism, a very vulnerable person. Again, we get the conversion conversation, we get the sort of like, truth serum self tape moment, you know, where she says, like, I'm not so bad. Right. Like that. That aspect of it. So, you know, I think, I think she's tremendously hurt by what she hears. Even like. And you, you brought this up when we, when last week when we were talking about, like, what if you could hear what everyone truly thinks of you and you and I were talking about what a nightmare it was.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

So this is something that you sort of called last week. And so, yeah, hearing it, it's different to suspect it than to hear it totally. You know, so even when, like, especially.

[B]

I would say Helen's thoughts on the Winds of Waikaro series are not damning, this is probably what Carol in her heart of hearts at least thinks to some degree. At least it's represented that way in what she thinks of her readers. But the novel is a different case. And Bitter Chrysalis remains an absolutely elite bad novel name. It is way too long for literally anyone to be writing a novel that much. But to your point about Helen as Carol's protector, I love that line about Helen. And Val had kind of talked about the novel and decided, like, it wouldn't hurt her career and it just would make Carol happy to publish it.

[A]

And that's that infantilizing thing that you're talking about.

[B]

It is, for sure. And it's like that sentence and that sentiment alone is like, it is a caring thought. Right. Like there's a germ of something there that is genuine and affectionate and like, trying to be protective. But it's protecting a person from something that they don't want to be protected from, which is their own creativity and expression and self. Like, how can you do that to someone even when you love them? And yet we do it to people we love all the time.

[A]

Did you think, as I. As I saw that some people did, that it was like, incredibly emotionally manipulative for Larry to bring up Moira, she of the crazy hats.

[B]

Sure.

[A]

Who was, you know, like, brought back to life by the Wakaro books. I actually found that really beautiful. I don't know. And like, I don't know that I would consider that manipulative. It was like him finding a truth, which is that. That like, to someone and we are all one. Your book is the most important thing that has ever happened. And you're not Shakespeare, but there is value. And I don't know. I was thinking about this in terms of, like, I've been thinking about this a lot as I've been trying to figure out how I'm going to talk about Wicked for good on House of Our this week.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Thinking about Wicked. My experience watching the first Wicked movie was I had like, a pretty bad time watching it in the press screening. And then I went to a wide release with, like, an audience that loved it. And it actually changed my relationship to it. Superman, a movie that I. I kind of liked. And then I talked to my nephew about it and he loved it and it changed my relationship to the new Superman movie. And that's okay. Like, critics are supposed to form their opinions in a vacuum. We're not exactly, precisely critics. And like, it's okay if your relationship to a. A piece of art changes based on how other people feel about it. And it's not like, like I'm dumbing myself down or anyone's dumbing themselves down or whatever. It's just sort of like when something matters to someone, when they find an emotional resonance in it, it can, like, bring it out. For me, that happens with, with when I talk to Mallory all the time. It's just like she loves things so fiercely that it's quite infectious. So I just thought this was like, a really interesting way to talk about, you know, art. Art can be art. Even if you think it's not Shakespeare, it's art to someone. And I think that. That, I don't know, interesting perspective.

[B]

So I also really enjoyed it as a way that the hive mind. You know, we talked last week, Joe, about Like, is the hive mind capable of creating great art? And I think there's a lot of complications in that prospect. But this is about how the hive mind understands art. And maybe, you know, it could. It can cite, you know, ref. Like, you know, portions of the book that really resonated with other people and made them tingle and all that stuff. But ultimately, like, what it is good at at this stage in the story is not. Not high emotional intelligence. It's like, fact, right? Like this. This woman was in this situation, and your book, shitty as it might be, like, made, gave her second thoughts before committing suicide. Like, that is a real thing. And to be very clear, like, more than validating the exercise of publishing or creating anything, like, if you could create the worst book ever written and it saves someone from killing themselves, like, that is a huge net win in the grand scheme of the universe.

[A]

Exactly.

[B]

And so I'm like, I'm pulled by that sort of sentimentality you're talking about, which I think is very real. And what a work of art means to one person or a small group of people is incredibly meaningful and resonant and not something you can easily write off. And I'm also in the hive mind's portrayal of that, pulled in the opposite direction of the, like, let people enjoy things kind of self validation that exists in so much, like, of our art and cultural moment right now. It's. It's like a hop, skip and a jump away from. Like, you're being a snob because you didn't love Fantastic Four. You know, like, there's. There is a lot of distance between these things, but they're all kind of connected.

[A]

I really agree. I am, like, very torn about it. I'm of two minds, because I don't agree that we should flatten all Romantasy with Shakespeare. Like, of course I don't. You know what I mean? I think it matters that we say some things are smarter or better or whatever, but I also think it's like, yeah, you can. You can enjoy Fantastic Four.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

But, like, I can also say I didn't think Fantastic Four was very good. You know? And, like, it was not very good. It was not very good, you know? Okay. I mean, I wanted it to be good. Okay. So here we get Carol visiting Zosia, but she's back at the hospital. We're at the hospital three times this week. This is when we get the sort of the conversion therapy conversation, the conversion camp conversation. I will say we had a listener, Mikhail, who. Who called this out as, like, a possibility.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

In a previous email and then just said like, the subtext has become text this week, you know, essentially. But I. This was a stunning, I thought, interaction between Carol and Zosia. What did you make of it?

[B]

I. I completely agree. And I think specifically the juxtaposition of these two camps, right. Of this like, smiling group of people who supposedly are well meaning and have your best interests at heart and are fundamentally trying to fix you. I think that that's part of the thing with Carol too, is not just like we want to bring you into our mold. It's as Zosia mentioned last week, like you are drowning, right. Like you are drowning in your own life. And we have the solution. We have all the answers. If you simply give everything you are over to us and never be a person ever again. Yeah. Where would someone like Carol have heard that before? Where would she have heard the idea that she is someone who needs to be fixed? Such a damning thing for certainly a teenager to hear, but also not a surprise that someone like Carol would carry it with her in every interact that she would have for the rest of her life.

[A]

And I think that, like, you know, I was, I was wondering about this. Like there's there. We got a lot of emails of people wondering, like, why doesn't Carol have like any family outside of Helen? And she might, but she might be like completely no contact with them because they did this to her. Right.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And and then also I was so curious why in, you know, 2024, 2025, whenever this takes place, someone would be. Maybe this is just a privileged bubble of mine, but like, why someone would be. Someone who's in the arts would be in the bubble and in the closet that way. Like that's. I was just sort of like, I know people are still in the closet, obviously, but it's just sort of like what is stopping Carol, who is like, you know, beloved in this space. And like this is part of it. There are many other reasons. And I, and I, you know, licking the donut. Gmail.com if you thought that was like the worst thing for me to say. But this particular trauma being something that would just make her so hesitant to let anyone know her truth. Yeah. Let her wider community know her truth, I think is, you know, very important piece of information for us to have, so.

[B]

Well, let me ask you this. I don't know if you have any more information on this front than I do, but I wonder if there's something to the idea of being a romance or a romantasy author in that like, that is like, I would say, a line of work that lends itself more to pseudonyms and more to like, working names than almost any other line of fiction. Certainly, like, there is a level of remove that I think a lot of romance romantic authors want to have for various reasons. I wonder if there's like a. Would your audience read your hetero relationship with a space pirate in your book the same way if they knew the inner workings of your actual personal life? I don't know how protective people are of those things in that space.

[A]

Yeah, I mean, my experience in this sort of like sci fi fantasy genre space is that it is like so queer friendly at the same point, same time. Romantasy specifically right now also has a large, like, conservative following. You know what I mean? And so, like, I remember this specifically from. Sorry, excuse me. Book talk. When, like, in our most recent presidential election, there was this huge schism on the. The book side of TikTok where there were. There were people were sort of like, why would we ever bring politics into talking about books? And then other people were like, books are politics, you know, so you read a book. So like, I remember this sort of like, can't we just talk about our fairy smut without bringing politics into it? And I think maybe some of those people would want not want to know that Carol is gay. I think that is possible.

[B]

But I got bad news though. The fairies are getting deported. You know, if we literalize the metaphors. Bad news news for all of your favorite fairies.

[A]

It's true. Bad news for all of your favorite fairies. My favorite pull coat from this podcast. All right, so Carol goes into the pharmacy I loved. I mean, the whole heroin sequence is just like extremely funny. I don't know why she knows to look for the thiopental sodium. Perhaps because she has studied many a fictional elixir for her book. So she knows some things about how elixirs work.

[B]

Once you get into the inner workings of the spice trade, Joe, you learn a lot about recreational and medicinal drugs.

[A]

But okay, so here's the. Here's the specifics that we learn about thiopental sodium. It doesn't say underneath truth serum. So that's not like what it's called. But induction agent for anesthesia. Okay. Emergency management of seizures. Is this check off seizure anti seizure medication? Like, does having a syringe of thiopental sodium, could that save another millions of people dying if she like, upsets Zoja again? Do you know what I mean?

[B]

But how are you going to distribute it to all the millions of people.

[A]

Well, isn't stopping Zoja's seizure stopping everyone's seizure?

[B]

That's a great question. See, this is another bit of this is another case for Carol, the scientist. We need her to really dig into. We need her to yell at Zojja again, risking the fate of who knows how many people. Inject her again and see what happens.

[A]

Sounds. This wasn't traumatic at all for her, so I'm sure she'll be right back on.

[B]

Everyone did great.

[A]

Everyone was fine. Anything you want to say about the pharmacy or about the dosage footage that we get?

[B]

I was a little. I don't know, I was a little underwhelmed by the dosage footage, I guess.

[A]

Okay, tell me.

[B]

You know, like, obviously we do get these sort of character moments and some great lines. And I thought, like, you know, Carol reading from her own book in a bad British accent, like, there's great stuff in there. I think I was just, like, waiting for more of a reveal of something from any part of this. I guess from Carol's dosing herself or eventually dosing Zosia. It's like. It's a lot of process, and there's no payoff for it yet. And I'm open to the idea that maybe that payoff comes in episode seven or whatever, but for now, it's just kind of like, okay, there's this truth serum, and it's been administered to two different people. And the most telling information we've got is that Carol thinks Zosia is fuckable. Which we already know.

[A]

Which we already knew. I don't know that everyone already knew, but, like, yes. On the official podcast, Rhea Seehorn talked about filming that sequence and how she had to, like, film all of it because they were just, like, scrubbing. Like, they.

[B]

Scrubbing. They gotta fast forward.

[A]

But, like, she had to film all of that, like, together. And one thing that they cut, like, one of the things that she did that they just decided to zoom through was her singing Melissa Etheridge. And I'm like, release the Etheridge. Cut. Please do it. I beg of you. I think, listen, I'm not that bad. Was really a really good moment. I mean, like. Like, why they have to make her so is, of course. And then Carol's reaction to seeing herself say that, it's almost like, revelatory to, like, Carol can't hide from her intrusive thoughts when she has taped them for herself. But. But, yeah, I just thought. It's very funny. But I think. I think you make a good point because Then we get this like, we're back at the hospital again and we get this whole sort of like after the muzak in the elevator sequence outside.

[B]

I would say that song has been stuck in my head non stop. Well, it's. It's the Christopher. It's not the Christopher Cross version, I don't think. But it's that like, best that you can do song from Arthur. And I'm like, it's just. It's just rolling up here. I don't know what it is about that bit of elevator music, but it really got me.

[A]

Are you a fan of elevator music in general?

[B]

Hold music apparently. I didn't know this about myself, but revelations abound for me and Carol both.

[A]

I love this. I think. Do you like your cop car, as you say, is a fantasizing. Sure. How was the heroine? It was really funny, really good. But also, I will say what I think what we learned from the pharmacy interaction, like the fact that Carol did heroin sophomore year.

[B]

It was crazy.

[A]

But then he's like, it's been a while since you injected your, like, I don't know, like, what is Carol's. We are. We've already talked about her substance abuse and sort of like her drinking and stuff like that. So, like, what is her history with drugs? Like what is. You know. And again, we're keep. We keep getting these like, hints of the darkness in her. In her past, you know, like, sophomore year is tough. So I did some heroin is like, not something I would say. I don't know.

[B]

No, but what were you up to sophomore year, Joe?

[A]

Not doing heroin?

[B]

One would hope. I was working or at least not.

[A]

Injecting a movie theater. That's what I was doing sophomore year.

[B]

I mean, that's the heroine of the soul, you know, that's. That's what got you hooked to be in this line of work. Now you've been an addict for a long time.

[A]

It's true. It's true. It was the butter and the popcorn machine that did it.

[B]

I think now you're going to see fucking Tron Ares and just like, you know, living it up.

[A]

Rob, you need to give the people all the information about me going to see Tron Ares this week, which is that I went with some friends, we found a deserted theater, we heckled Tron Ares and it was a great time. And you told me you thought that that was a great idea.

[B]

I do think it's a great idea, but I am a fellow movie sicko, as are you. I also have a bit of breaking news for You. Which is. They were all deserted theaters. You could have gone to any of them for Tron airs.

[A]

Actually, that's a lie. There were four people in our theater, but they.

[B]

I hope they were having a great.

[A]

Time, but they were having a really. They were also talking through it. So I'm just. The point is, we were not disturbing anyone. And our point was to like. It was. I went with the same person I saw Morbius with, and we also heckled Morbius in a deserted theater. So I just think that, like, this is how you should consume a Jared Leto film. That's my personal opinion.

[B]

There's no doubt. We did talk, Joe. You know, we talked a lot about the hive mind as potential AI. Yeah. And I think this heroine bit, which is really just kind of COVID for her to get the needles, which is, I think, pretty clutch clever on Carol's part. It reminded me we didn't talk enough about ultimately, the. The hive mind here as, like, dark web concierge.

[A]

Like, the heroine's eight miles away.

[B]

There is a version, you know, there is a group of emailers who are telling us about they want to race cars, they want to play golf courses. There is a, you know, an unheard majority out there who have some really deep, dark shit they want to do. But I'm not inviting it. I'm just saying there is a brand of stuff that's out there and possibilities in this universe that people don't even want to touch in polite company.

[A]

I suggest you email licking the donut. D O U G H N U.

[B]

T with all of your dark web fantasies.

[A]

Your dark web fantasies. I'm sure that person will love to have those in addition to all the other Pluribus emails they've been getting.

[B]

But before we go out of the hospital, though, I want to ask you about one thing. This, like, final sequence we get with Zoja and Carol in the hospital room where Zoja is telling her, like, we have been you, but you haven't been us. And, like, we know what it's like to be truly alone and to suffer. I mean, this. This sequence, like, really caught me, I think.

[A]

Tell me first.

[B]

First of all, in a sort of, like, weaponized empathy kind of way, and also made me wonder, like, is that something that the hive mind is even capable of? Like this. This group's emotional intelligence has been so spare to this point. There's a lot they miss in context, in terms of the actual humanity behind, of course, the words and expressions people have, for one. Could a hive mind even practice the kind of Understanding that it claims to hold over what it means to be alone. Is that something that they could even comprehend?

[A]

I would argue no. And I would. You know, it's the same. I think that's the very same question we're asking about, like, can they create art? There is just something like deeply human that the flattening of, you know, their experience cannot. They don't have access to that. But will. Can they get there? Will. Will Zoja. Like, what happens here at the end of this episode is extremely traumatic for Zoja, obviously.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

And. And for the people. I mean, it's a very scary sequence. Carol screaming like backup, I have agency. But like not feeling confident that. That like this is a risk taking. Right. Yeah, exactly. Something on a. Something that they said on the official pot. So the person who comes through with the sort of machine to help Zoja at the very end of the episode, her name is Rosa Estrada. And this is the woman who with that self same machine, saved Bob Odenkirk's life on the set of Better Call Saul. If folks don't know, Bob Odenkirk had a very serious heart attack on the set of Better Call Saul. Racy Horn was there and this woman, Rosa Estrada. And you know, I think like one of the ads or something like that, like did chest compressions and worked on Bob and like brought him back. But it was very touch and go in that moment. So they wanted to like bring this woman in to like give her this moment. But they were also talking about how they want to be very sensitive to Rey in filming this sequence and also when she was doing chest compressions on Helen. That like this is something that this person. A very traumatic thing that this person went through with a beloved co star, Bob Odenkirk. And so I thought that was really. I thought Racy Horn's performances are always really good. But like her terror and guilt and all the things that she's feeling and frustration of not even getting the answer. Going through all of that and not even getting the answer, but coming close. Seemingly coming close, I thought was like really upsetting. I, I take your point that like we did all this and we didn't get the information, which is fine, like.

[B]

From a plot perspective, just from the. The like condensing of an individual episode.

[A]

That makes sense.

[B]

Was this an episode of TV or was this part of a larger project? It felt like more like part of a larger project.

[A]

I thought it was really stunning. They talked about how everyone in the crowd is crying and they had to use like vitamin E. Oil on their faces or whatever, because it was, like, crying at us at a rate that, like. Like, couldn't sustain as a human. But. And then, like, they're not smiling. So, like, to have this crowd just, like, standing around her, not smiling. Very scary. Very scary. So.

[B]

And again, like, listen. Listening to her directives, right? When Carol wants them to step back, they step back. When she wants them to let go, they let go. But also sort of the, like, wall of sound as they're kind of chanting to her, which is not, as you alluded to.

[A]

The police carol.

[B]

Yeah, yeah, the police Carol. And you talked about this in an earlier episode, Joe, where it's like. Like it can't be fully in unison because there's kind of a weird, uncanny balance to all that. And so it ends up as. It's just, like, overwhelming wave of sound and emotion and moment. And Racy Horn delivers as she always delivers.

[A]

Anything else you want to say about this sequence or the episode? Here's what I will say. We didn't spend as much time as I would. I probably should have, talking about Jeff Hiller's performance in this episode, but last week we had talked about, like, all the celebrity cameos we would like to see, and, like, we got some good suggestions. And I. And I do think it's a really fun idea, but, like, thinking about Robert Bailey Jr. Who showed up as the DHL delivery guy last week, and Jeff Hiller showing up here, like, maybe I would actually prefer this. Let's find these, like, people who are. You know, Jeff didn't have his Emmy when they cast him in this, and I think before he won his Emmy, fewer people knew who he was, and people still might not know, and they should, who Jeff Hiller is. But, like, these people who have been around and doing great work, and let's just, like, let them show up and do, like, a. A gangbuster scene in an episode of Pluribus. You know what I mean?

[B]

Completely. And I think, like, the track record is there, too, for Gilligan in terms of. You've seen what he can do with Michael McKean. You know, it's like an actor of a certain repute and success. And it's like, if you just want to come play for a little while, like, we'll give you really fun, interesting stuff to do. We'll put you at this table opposite Rhae Seehorn, and you get to be kind of disarming and charming and also incredibly eerie and creepy at the same time. It's like there's. There's A lot for I think character actors specifically to work with on a show like this. That could be really fun for a.

[A]

Lot of people and like how excited will be if like Larry Jeff Hiller comes back in season, you know, and we're like, oh, like Larry's here again. Like, he doesn't have to become a main character, but it'll like be fun to see these people again. They did talk on the official pod about like this idea that they, that that Larry's been in that bike uniform like since the, the joining hasn't changed it. I don't know if that would smell great.

[B]

Do the unlit shower.

[A]

That's a great question, they said.

[B]

Or sorry. Do the hive mind shower. I hope the unlit shower.

[A]

Although Carol sometimes does it, sometimes she doesn't. That this idea that they have no vanity. Right. So like they don't care what they look like unless they're trying to like appeal directly to Carol, I guess. But I have a question, like, again, I'm just curious if they're all going to eventually wind up in matching jumpsuits or something like that. I don't know. So we'll see how the hive mind continues to hive. Anything else you want to talk about?

[B]

I will say if that's what ultimately happens, it might be appealing to Carol, who has been a leisure wear icon to this point. I was having a conversation with our guy Kai Grady at the office who pointed out her to this point, several full body matching sweatsuits that she has in incredible colors. And it's like, maybe if you just give Carol a nice pair of sweats, she would be down for all this. They just don't know the way to her heart.

[A]

Ultimately, what should be under the cloche is some nice leisure wear. I love that.

[B]

Absolutely.

[A]

That's a great. That's a classic Kai Grady observation. Thank you to everyone for listening to this podcast. Licking the donutmail.com, please keep your emails coming. I know I keep saying there's a lot of them, but I do love reading them. So please keep sending them. Thank you to Donny Beacham for his continued heroic Friday morning turnaround on these pods. Always like really, really good. And to just sales, of course, for his work on the feed. Thank you to Rob Mahoney.

[B]

Thank you, Joe.

[A]

No thanks. I guess to pigeons. Rob still is considers you his enemy. And get lost.

[B]

They're a literal vermin.

[A]

We'll see you next week. Bye.