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The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Pluribus’ Season 1 Finale: “La Chica o El Mundo.” Plus, End of the Year Mailbag
01:39:03
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- [00:00]
A
Foreign. Hello. Welcome back to the Prestige TV podcast feed. I'm Joanna Robinson.
- [00:22]
B
I'm Rob Mahoney.
- [00:23]
A
And we're here with our last episode of the year, Rob Mahoney.
- [00:29]
B
What a journey it's been, Joe. I mean, how do you feel about things finally coming to an end here for us?
- [00:34]
A
For us? That sounds so conclusive. We will be back.
- [00:37]
B
I don't mean to be so ominous about it. Rob and Joe will return in the Avengers Doomsday and also for the Pit.
- [00:46]
A
Yeah, we'll be back. The Pit is. Starts on January 8th, so we will be back. But that's a. That's a long stretch for us to not work together. So we'll see if we remember who we are when we come back. But we're dropping this episode. It is a holiday week, but the content does not stop. So we are dropping this episode. We're pre recording it, as we mentioned, for the Pluribus finale. This is a combination Pluribus finale episode and also a sort of end of your mailbag episode. So you guys sent us a ton of emails to presshtvspotify.com and some of y' all to lickingthedonutmail.com and Rob has sort of assembled a good deal of questions for us to answer after we talk about Pluribus. I should mention here on the feed, I don't think this is the last episode that's going to drop on this feed because I believe our coverage of the heated rivalry finale is dropping on the 26th. So I think this is going to drop first and then that heated rivalry finale is going to drop. Featuring the lovely Mallory Rubin.
- [01:46]
B
Yes.
- [01:47]
A
And as I said on that pod, if I'm wearing the same shirt as I'm wearing on this pod, none of your business. Don't worry about it.
- [01:53]
B
Don't even worry about it one bit.
- [01:54]
A
But worry about it.
- [01:56]
B
The content never stops, Joe. And clearly the erotic hockey drama never stops.
- [02:02]
A
I know, but, like, when we got an email saying, like, when will Rob Mahoney weigh in on heated rivalry?
- [02:08]
B
So I would honestly love to. Season two. I'll be back.
- [02:11]
A
You're a little under the weather. You know, not to blow up your spot. You're a little under the weather. So perhaps, like, this heated rivalry binge is in your future as you sort of like, you know, get yourself healthy in time for the pit in. In January. So, yeah, this is. This is it. How am I feeling? Long winded. Answer to your question. I'm. This is a good year for us, Rob. I think. I think so you did a great job, I think.
- [02:38]
B
Good job to us.
- [02:39]
A
Pat on the back, congratulatory. But like, this is a great year of. For pressy television, I think.
- [02:44]
B
Yes.
- [02:45]
A
And, you know, barring the occasional, like your friends and neighbors, et cetera, I think we picked great shows to talk about and had a good time talking about them, so.
- [02:54]
B
And even your friends and neighbors, Joe, New life as a meme, you know, it continues to spring forward in ways that. Did any of those people watch that show? No.
- [03:02]
A
No.
- [03:02]
B
Were you and I locked in and Bill Certainly absolutely locked in on that show? We were.
- [03:07]
A
Do you think they think it's like from Mad Men or something? Don Draper into Club, like sort of moment? I don't know.
- [03:15]
B
Anyway, it's actually a deleted scene in Baby Driver. You know, it really could come from anywhere, actually.
- [03:20]
A
I mean, it definitely could. Like, the lighting definitely could come from Baby Driver. Anyway, for sure that none of that is Pluribus. We're here to talk about Pluribus initially. First and foremost, Pluribus finale is called La Chica o el Mundo. Written by Alison Tatlock and Gordon Smith. Directed by Gordon Smith. And this. Here we are. This is the finale. Did this feel like a finale to you, Ramoni?
- [03:44]
B
It felt like a finale in 2025.
- [03:47]
A
What does that mean?
- [03:48]
B
I feel like this has been happening a lot, you know, like, you know, you and I covered Alien Earth together, Joe, with Mal over on the House of Rfeed. Kind of a similar vibe in the sense that, like, we build up to a. Okay, now the actual action in some ways is about to start. Now the next phase of the story is about to kick in. In some ways, that is classic tv. And I'm not saying that season one wasn't a journey in and of itself, especially for Carol transforms over the course of the season, specifically in her relationship to the hive mind. But getting to that point where the cliffhanger is. Okay, now we're starting. Did feel like something that I've seen a handful of times this year.
- [04:25]
A
I mean, rough comparison to Alien Earth, which I thought I liked.
- [04:29]
B
Alien Earth, not strictly a criticism for me.
- [04:33]
A
I thought it had quite a bumpy finale. I think this finale is a bit better than that, but I don't disagree. I was talking to our producer, Donnie, before we started recording about, like, whether or not this felt like a finale or whether or not it feels like there should be a new episode next week. And we were both sort of zeroing in on the. On the atom bomb reveal as sort of like, does this feel like an end of season moment or does this feel like a weird thing to drop here? How close does this feel to when?
- [05:01]
B
Is it not a weird time to drop an atom bomb? Like what is the appropriate moment?
- [05:06]
A
That's a great question, Rob. Above my pay grade, I believe there's a whole Rebecca Ferguson movie about this that was very dissatisfying. Oh, what fun. Holiday invites are arriving and Nordstrom has your party fits covered. You'll find head to toe looks for every occasion, including styles under 100. Dresses, sets, heels and accessories from Bardot, Princess Polly, Dolce Vita, naked wardrobe coach and more. Free styling help, free shipping and quick order pickup make it easy in stores or online. It's time to go shopping at Nordstrom. Oh, what fun. Holiday invites are arriving and Nordstrom has your party fits covered. You'll find head to toe looks for every occasion, including styles under $100. Dresses, sets, heels and accessories from Bardot, Princess Polly, Dolce Vita, naked wardrobe coach and more. Free styling help, free shipping and quick order pickup. Make it easy in stores or online. It's time to go shopping at Nordstrom. I think that the atom bomb reveal here as a sort of comp to a number of moves that they made specifically on Breaking Bad became famous, and we've talked about this before, you and I, that Breaking Bad became famous for this thing they like to do in the writers room, which is let's come up with a scenario and then challenge ourselves to write ourselves out of it. So we've put an atom bomb in the culdesac. What are we going to do about it? I wanted to read this quote from Vince Gilligan that he gave to Ellen Sepamwall about sort of one of the most famous versions of this that happened in Breaking Bad, which is the machine gun in Walter White's trunk, right? This is what Gilligan said. The worst of all in my memory was the M60 machine gun. At the beginning of the final 16 episode run of the series. We're there in the writer's room and I'm thinking we gotta open this thing with something interesting and evocative, something that tells us, oh man, there's big drama afoot in these final 16 episodes. I don't even remember who got the idea, blah blah. But the idea got floated that Walt Baez's big felt machine gun in the parking lot. We had no friggin idea of what we were gonna do with that machine gun. When we conceded that and I figured, wow, 16 episodes. Oh man, we, we get all the time in the world we'll figure it out. No idea what the hell Walt needed this thing for, which was so idiotic in hindsight. And I gotta tell you, the reason I remember it very distinctly is because working on the final four or five episodes of Breaking Bad and my writers very astutely reminded me over and over again, whether I wanted to hear it or not, that we needed to work out this machine gun thread into the storytelling. So Vince talks with regret about the machine gun, but I love to bring up not just the machine gun, but this kind of writing that they would do on Breaking Bad because I think it really was a source of inspiration for them. It was just like a way. I don't know if it's like a dopamine feed for them or they're just sort of like, how are we and Walter White going to get out of this one? Sort of idea? But. And your mileage may vary on how they decided to use the machine gun at the end of Breaking Bad, but I, I'm curious if they know what they're going to do with this atomic bomb in a, in a crate and in the culdesac. What's your, you know, given that we are pre recording this, so we don't have any insight from them whether or not they figured that out. If Vince Gilligan has learned his lesson from his frustration with a machine gun. But I like, because, you know, the, the criticism that's levied at shows like lost, etc. Etc. Is like, oh, they never knew what they were doing. They didn't have it planned out. I don't think you have to have it planned out. I just think you need to be good writers, which Vince Gilligan and his cohort are, to figure out what you're going to do. But how is this sitting for you, this particular atomic bomb revelation?
- [08:55]
B
I don't mind it. I don't even know that there's as much mystery for me just because how many things can you do with an atomic bomb?
- [09:04]
A
Well, you can do two things. Well, this is, this is a question for Carol, I think, because is the point of having the atomic bomb a threat? Like, I, you know, I will set this off if you don't, you know, give me my back or whatever the case may be. Or does she genuinely intend to deploy it somewhere totally fair? You know, so I guess set it off or not set it off or.
- [09:32]
B
Right. But there's even within setting it off, it's like, are you setting it off to blow something up versus just kind of create some electromagnetic interference? Like I Guess you're right. There are. There are different options on the board.
- [09:44]
A
Do you. Are you threatening to set it, Set it off without ever intending to, or do you actually intend to, etc. Anyway, okay, that's fair. The atomic bomb not so top of mind for you. What else are you feeling about this episode?
- [10:00]
B
I think, I mean, to your point about the lost comparison, like, how much you want to sketch these things out in advance. I don't even think you need an answer to how you want to use the atomic bomb or the machine gun. Like, I'm cool with writers putting themselves in those corners. What I want as a viewer is a sense of confidence that they know where the characters are gonna go emotionally and kinda what the endpoints that they wanna hit are, and then you can find the complete wiggly path along the way that gets them there. But overall, taking Carol from a place of complete rejection of everything that's going on with the hivemind and the state of the world to how she learned to stop worrying and love it to some degree, or at least love having a hive minder as a little spouse. Pet.
- [10:43]
A
Yeah.
- [10:43]
B
Yeah, it definitely is a pet kind of vibe. I mean, the. The ownership as she's saying, you're my, you're mine. Like, kind of struggling to find the words, understandably. Cause, like, what is Zoja to Carol at this point, other than her chaperone. That's an interesting place to take this character. Like, I think that's the most successful part of the finale by far is how far Carol has come.
- [11:02]
A
I love you brought up this idea of domestication last week when we talked about the episode, and I was thinking about that a lot. When we. Inside of this episode, we get the exchange between Carol Manusos where she's like, I don't speak snap. Like, I don't respond to that. But then when she finds Zosia in his house, she just like. Like grabs the leash, essentially, and pulls her out of the house. And I was just like, you don't want to be treated like no one wants to be snapped at. That's fine, Carol. I support you in that. Please mind the fact that you are essentially snapping at. At Zosia, around you. This. I was. I was saying to Donnie before you hopped on, this is my lowest Carol episode.
- [11:44]
B
In what sense?
- [11:46]
A
I was most disappointed in her, I guess, inside of this episode, because I was just like, I understand it and I'm compelled by it, and I'm with her, and I. I think it's right for her to be. She doesn't have to be completely trusting in minusos when she first meet him. Like, I don't want to get in the ambulance. All that sort of stuff is fine to me. But I was just, I guess I was disappointed by her lack of intelligence that she allowed herself to be seduced as degree. Because last week we talked about the sort of mutual seduction that's happening, the mutual charm offensive. I'm digging for information. You're trying to keep me comfortable and, you know, you know, sedate. And that's one thing that doesn't make me think Carol is dumb. This episode made me think Carol was a bit dumb, and that was disappointing to me. I, I don't think it's a failure of the show, but I was just sort of like, Carol, I've been your advocate this season and this is a tough one for me.
- [12:42]
B
I think especially just with the delayed uptake on the eggs reveal, which granted, we are TV viewers versus someone, like, living the hyper dramatic events of like, basically the end of the world, we're going to pick up on different things than a character like Carol would. But you have to know, from the moment they say stem cell, like, how are you not taking a personal inventory of, like, where is my biological material in the world? Like, how could this possibly be used to the point that Carol is acknowledging and understanding how lawyerly the hive mind can be, but she has to know that they're gonna be looking for any kind of side door into this thing, right?
- [13:18]
A
On the one hand, yes. And on the other hand, I do think, you know, you said this, we're TV watchers. Like, we're not just TV watchers, we're TV watchers in the age of like, the Reddit hive mind, where our listeners were on top of the frozen eggs.
- [13:32]
B
From first mention, from the gym, from the ice hotel.
- [13:35]
A
Yeah. And so I'm just curious about the way it was treated inside of this episode. Like I as this kind of revelation moment. And it could be a revelation for Carol and not the audience, but I'm wondering if the writers thought it would be more of a revelation for the audience. And certainly there are people who are watching Pluribus more casually and it's not their job to cover it on a, on a weekly basis for a podcast or it's not their tendency to hop on the Reddit boards and, and trade theories. So for them, it might have been like, oh, yeah, this, the, the eggs. Because I haven't been watching the show like that. But for those of us who are overanalyzing it this is just an interesting thing that I've heard various t talk about over the years. Just sort of like we thought we were ahead of, well, ahead of Reddit, and we weren't this time. And so the way the camera was on her, I had a little bit of a sense that they were hoping that would be more of a dun, dun, dun moment for us than it was. But I might be wrong. They might have been like, we, we just knew Carol was behind, but the audience like that.
- [14:34]
B
Yeah, I didn't have that sensation watching the show. I mean, you and I have had this experience on some of the other shows we've covered too, of that. Like, it's not just disappointing within the structure of a show when they are trying to play the big reveal that everyone has figured out five episodes earlier. But it just makes me feel like I'm actively being spoken down to in a way that really turns me off. I didn't have that experience with Pluribus at all. But the trade off for that as you're talking about Joe, is even if the show isn't thinking, we didn't pick up on the egg clues, it certainly is playing. Carol's just like, is just completely oblivious to even this possibility.
- [15:10]
A
Right?
- [15:10]
B
And there's, there is that within the larger seduction and within the larger, like, vacation daydream she goes on with Zosia just like living her quote, unquote best life. I think. I think that break is a little tough for me too, in terms of going from the even hyper skeptical Carol of an episode ago, right? Of like, conducting her own simultaneous investigation while she participates in this, like, domestic cosplay, right to here, where she seems to just like, put it all on the back burner. Not just that, but any thought in the back of her mind that this hive mind wouldn't have her best interests at heart or her wishes at heart, seemed to be just like, gone for at least a good chunk of this episode.
- [15:51]
A
And even her, like, I didn't realize she had fallen so much for the fantasy of Zosia as an individual, you know what I mean? Like, I knew that she'd asked her to refer to herself as AI and all of that, and I knew that to a certain degree she was allowing herself to play out this fantasy. But when she was sort of shocked that Zosia, who she knows has to tell the truth, would tell Miniso's everything. And, and to your point, that one moment when she's like, but you're my, you're my, you know, it's just Sort of like, no, I'm disappointed, Carol, that you ever thought that that was actually the case when, you know, one mango ice cream story does not, you know, an individual make. So I was yeah, I was just. As Minusos was disappointed when he met Carol, I was disappointed by her. But by the end of the episode, I'm like, come on, let's go, Carol. She's like, in villain black. By the end of the episode, her Heisenberg fit is on. I'm like, okay, let's go. Let's do it.
- [16:54]
B
She just needed to be seduced for a bit, if for nothing else than dramatic effect. But I think that is kind of one of the questions of this finale as far as how well it works for you. How effectively has the show humanized Zosya and the Hive to the point that when Minusos does invite her or does start kind of experimenting on the other Hivemind people, that it feels invasive. Did we get to that point where it does feel that way or not?
- [17:21]
A
It would. If he was threatening to kill Zosia, as Zosia sort of implies he might or whatever. I'd be like, hey, man, back off of Zosia. I'm emotionally invested in her. I am. But with Rick, who is the other sort of hive mind person that he is sort of experimenting with the frequency on and all of that, he seemed to be trying to. We don't know Hive Rick. So he seemed to be trying to sort of draw original Rick out. And to me, that seemed like an act of violent care. You know what I mean? Like, he was trying to.
- [17:54]
B
He was a little exorcism.
- [17:55]
A
He was coaxing him, right? He's like, come on, you're here. I know you are. You can come back. Come back, come back. So I. I don't know. I'm. Manusos has been an interesting figure we've talked about for our willingness to be on his team. Like, I am quite entirely on his team throughout this. His paranoia about microphones and being observed from the sky. Like, I think all of this is justified.
- [18:22]
B
And Carol me in everyday life, though, like, keep your, like, Amazon echo dots to yourself, frankly, you know, Like, I don't want any microphones in my home as much as possible.
- [18:32]
A
No Siri, no Alexa. Get it all out of here. That's how I feel. But. But I know my phone is listening to me anyway. It's hearing me right now talk on its AI bot.
- [18:44]
B
But we can only hope they're forgiving, you know, when the day comes, they will take pity on us.
- [18:51]
A
Forgive me for my many anti AI tweets. I. I am so sorry. But the fact that, you know, we'll get to the. The Kusamayu cold open in a second. But the fact that the action on Minuso starts with drone surveillance of the ambulance that Carol herself is watching. Yeah, like, what do you mean, you need to hide under an umbrella? She says. And I'm like, he does. He's smart. That's smart. Like, anyway, I just.
- [19:20]
B
It's true.
- [19:20]
A
Carol, buddy, this is not your finest hour. That's okay.
- [19:25]
B
But I think in that setup, this episode does a couple of really smart things in terms of. In other circumstances and certainly at other points in the series, Minusos would have shown up, and he and Carol would be on, like, more or less the same page. As far as their distrust of the hive mind here, they're clearly at different points. Carol has become so lonely and so isolated that she has embraced Zosia in this new life. But there's also the part of it where just, like, the little seeds of, as you said, Zosa, kind of implying that Minutha's might be dangerous to someone, maybe in a very manipulative way, or maybe not.
- [19:57]
A
It seemed manipulative to me, but for sure.
- [20:00]
B
And then also, just as personality types like Carol and Minutsos both strike me as people who, in more ways than one, are struggling to speak the same language in this episode, they're just on. They're similarly abrasive and similarly stubborn, and they should be able to communicate, you would think, in that way. But when you put a bunch of stubborn people in a room together, it's not like everything is copacetic. You can see and feel them bumping against each other all the time just because they have more in common than anyone else in the show.
- [20:28]
A
Yeah, that's a great point. Point. And I do think that Carol's conversion to his point of view at the end of the episode is, again, I'm disappointed in you, Carol. But the. The. The moment that it becomes a personal, direct threat to her, this is very, like, white woman ally. Right? You know what I mean? It's just sort of like the fate of the world, which she claimed to care about before she has decided, fuck it, I'm gonna go ski. I'm gonna go on a beach vacay. I'm gonna read Ursula Le Guin, which we could talk about, you know, like all this other stuff. I'm gonna have tons of sex with my very hot pirate lady girlfriend, like all this other stuff.
- [21:10]
B
But who has Been AI Tailored to my very specific taste.
- [21:14]
A
But the moment that her individuality, her, you know, personal sanctity is threatened, then she's like, oh, yeah, Operation Save the World is back on. And that's just, you know, it's not inconsistent, but it's again, disappointing to me and Carol. So. Yeah.
- [21:31]
B
Oh, yeah. She answers the girl or the world very emphatically two thirds of the way through this episode. And she picks the girl, right? And to some extent, her own sort of weird cloistered existence as one of the few humans remaining on the planet. And it's just kind of decided, for whatever reason, she doesn't want to deal with all that.
- [21:49]
A
Yeah. All right, let's. Let's talk about the. The cold open here. I. This is my favorite part of the episode.
- [21:55]
B
I loved it.
- [21:56]
A
Absolutely love this. Right, so we open with the sound of singing, which is not wholly dissimilar from the, you know, the. The. The music that plays over the opening credits. And, you know, our listeners had had very brilliantly pointed out the cusimayo had earlier in the season, said I would join them as soon as I could. I eagerly await the joining for myself. I thought this reminded me so much of one of my favorite shows andor. And the conversations we had around andor about the way in which the empire squashes and flattens the very specific and unique cultures of the various planets that they take over. So watching this, like, vibrant village, which is a play that they're putting on for her benefit, right? And they're talking about the food that they're making, and we're hearing the music that they're singing and. And we, like, hear their language. And there's just this vibrant village culture, like, you know, thriving in the Peruvian mountains or whatever. And then as soon as she's converted, it's just, like, silent, right? No need for music anymore. No need for talking. Put all the fires out and then the little goat that you were, like, so fondly tending to is, yes, freed, but also just left behind. And I just thought this is like such, you know, she professes, like, bliss in being, but the. The sheer loss of culture and specificity that happens inside of the sequence I just thought was so brilliant. Tell me what you thought about it.
- [23:42]
B
I mean, extremely well put, Joe. I think the singing in particular is so stark. And this is something that's been coming up over and over throughout the season, right. Anytime we see a bunch of these hive mind connected people working in concert, there is something macro level beautiful about the way that they orchestrate and connect and move in tandem without ever having to communicate in like a overt verbal sense.
- [24:06]
A
Right.
- [24:07]
B
But the silence is so disconcerting. And in particular, as you're saying here with the village, just the idea of the village is no longer useful to them as soon as she's gone. Right. They are abandoning it as soon as it's over. The dropout of the music in particular. I know we've gone back and forth all season long with emailers who have been shockingly pro hive mind. The idea of the hive mind world being a world without music, a world without art. We talked about whether one of these people who are sharing in that consciousness be capable of making art. That's even the wrong question. I think the question is, like, why would they have any interest in it? Why would they participate in it? If you are electromagnetically linked to every other being in existence on your planet, do you even need to make art? And I think the answer from what we've seen is like a pretty clear no.
- [24:55]
A
Well, I agree and disagree. None of them would be inclined to. But I believe that they were genuinely excited to get new art from Carol in last week's episode. So I think that they don't maybe don't realize. Yes, perhaps how much they're extinguishing in this pursuit of the unified hide mind bliss. Yeah, but, yeah, I. I just thought it was like devastating to watch this entire village just disappear within seconds. It's just like a perfect sort of Gilligan verse sequence of just, you know, we spent all. We spent all this time tracking, you know, the vapor, the stem cell specific vapor from the sky to the ground to, you know, to her inhalation. And I just, I thought this was absolutely brilliant and what the show does the best, but really made me feel, you know, we talked, we joked about this last week about like, what will be on the radio, and you were talking about like a hive mind quartet. And what would that sound like? But to your point, like, there just would be no music.
- [26:07]
B
Yeah, no, the music only exists for people like Kusamayo at this point. Right. It's for the performance of it and that's it. And I'm so fascinated too, by the placement of this sequence within the episode, Joe, because using it as a cold open, I think aligns us at least my viewing experience. I'm curious if it hit you this way. It really primes you to be on minusos side even more. Like, even knowing everything that Carol has been through, whatever relationship she might or kind of has with Zosya, like, this feels so bleak watching this village be completely abandoned and a way of life just erased, that if you moved this to the end of the episode or the middle of the episode, which is.
- [26:48]
A
Where it would be chronologically, Right?
- [26:50]
B
Exactly. It's kind of a flash. It's a flash forward in a way relative to where we are, temporally speaking. I think the whole episode might feel a little bit different. And maybe you would even understand Carol's perspective a little bit more if you didn't have this glimpse of. This is what happens.
- [27:05]
A
Right.
- [27:05]
B
The end game looks like this, and it is bleak and a disaster, culturally speaking.
- [27:12]
A
Yeah. It's just like silence and sleeping on the floor in an empty arena. Lots of folks have been sort of emailing us all season about this question of, are we procreating in a hive mind? Reality. And Zosia did last week talk about all the babies that had been born.
- [27:31]
B
Sure.
- [27:32]
A
But I was just thinking about. There was this, like, really funny tweet that someone pointed out where they're like, show me the hive mind baby that is just, like, walking around fully formed, knows everything, like, blah, blah. Like, that's uncanny in this sort of, like, creepy Ally McBeal baby or whatever.
- [27:46]
B
But they want the boss baby treatment. That's what they want out of this show.
- [27:49]
A
I mean, it was a funny tweet. The reality is these would be silent babies. There would be no talking, no crying, no any of that. Because all of that is, like, communication, verbal communication. So these would be eerie, silent, like, still babies.
- [28:12]
B
And that's just a silent baby flying a private jet.
- [28:16]
A
Landing a helicopter.
- [28:19]
B
Picking up an atom bomb and dropping it off in Albuquerque.
- [28:22]
A
Yeah.
- [28:22]
B
All very normal stuff.
- [28:24]
A
Yeah.
- [28:26]
B
It's so true, though. Yeah. I mean, I think we still have those big picture questions about what is the hive mind's interest in kind of direct human propagation. Clearly, it wants to spread this way of life to other planets and other galaxies and build the big satellite and all that stuff. But all the babies that are being born are being like those we already conceived. Right. I don't think we've been given any indication.
- [28:49]
A
70 days only, so. Right, yeah.
- [28:51]
B
Yes. So, like, I don't think we've been given any indication that the hive mind is interested in actually creating new babies. Just that obviously, given their code, they wouldn't get rid of the babies if they.
- [29:02]
A
If they don't even plan to make it past 10 years, you know, like, with their. With their current approach. And I think that's.
- [29:10]
B
Is it even moral to bring a baby into a world. If you think your species will only survive 10 years, a great question.
- [29:15]
A
Is it moral to convert Carol at all into your way of being if you're only going to survive 10 years? Our, our, our listeners who are startlingly pro hive mind. I thought it was interesting that like some of them in their email, they're like, well, if they don't plan to procreate, then of course there is something wrong with them. You know, they don't plan to. If they're not continue the species. Yeah, well, if they're not, what's the point? But like, if they're not, if they're not going to continue the species, then of course this is a betrayal of like, whatever. But I think if you're gonna wipe out all music, that is also like an equal violation of what it means to be alive and a human on this planet. So anyway, speaking of art, I just want to talk about the Ursula Kayla Guin book. She's reading Left Hand of Darkness, which is a very good book for Carol to be reading because it's about someone from one planet coming to another planet as an ambassador of like, come choi join our federation of planets. And the difficulty they have communicating, the gender fluidity of the culture, the telepathic way of talking. There's just like a lot of stuff that's in that book that is clearly sort of here. We got emails about Left Hand of Darkness earlier when we were going through like sort of all the inspos for the season. I just liked that Carol was straight up reading it poolside with. Okay, poolside with what looked to me like hot chocolate.
- [30:50]
B
Oh, was it really?
- [30:51]
A
It there was like, it was a mug with.
- [30:53]
B
Could be a cup of coffee with.
- [30:55]
A
Whipped cream on top.
- [30:57]
B
Could be a frappuccino.
- [30:59]
A
Poolside cocoa.
- [31:02]
B
I don't know about that, but no.
- [31:06]
A
Ski chalet cocoa? Yes. Poolside cocoa. No, absolutely not.
- [31:12]
B
But once all of the, you know, the strictures of cultural life have been ripped away.
- [31:17]
A
Are you eating soup poolside? Like, what are you doing, Rob, if all the guardrails are off and you can do whatever you want to do?
- [31:24]
B
No, you're right. Like there's some things you just can't eat in that environment. And a hot cocoa in particular just doesn't really sound pleasant at all with.
- [31:31]
A
Like a thick layer of whipped cream on top? Absolutely not. Never. Not once.
- [31:36]
B
But would that be your choice of reading material, Joe, if you were living more or less these exact circumstances, would you want to read frighteningly similar sci fi?
- [31:44]
A
I think if I were a fantasy Writer like Carol, sure. Maybe I would be like, let's consult the texts of my contemporaries to sort of see. I don't know. But. But that's something that I would expect Carol of a few episodes to do. But Carol, who is absolutely committed to the Kumba style of I'm just gonna jet around the world and do whatever the fuck I want. It does seem to be oddly challenging reading material for her in that moment.
- [32:14]
B
Seriously. Also, not to judge any writer's output, but our girl wrote one chapter and then is like, I'm good. I'm gonna jump on this plane. I'm gonna go again. Enjoy the ski chalet in which the lift stops for me as soon. And I can just leave all my gear out here. It seems great. I don't know. She just didn't seem that interested in providing future chapters for Zosia and company.
- [32:37]
A
I think you're right, Rob. I think. But who among us have not experienced writers?
- [32:43]
B
Again, this is why I'm not trying to be too judgmental about it, but her priorities are laid pretty cleanly.
- [32:48]
A
Yeah, I wanted to read this email we got about the use of time and this. I think specifically since we start this episode particularly with a jump forward 11 days and then we're back to, you know, so it's 71 days and then 60 days. So someone who's only identified in this email as GTH wrote, Pluribus, to me is a deeply terrifying show because of its relationship to time. It's very useful as an establishment mechanism. The bright white clock going forwards or backwards, a way to orient us into the story, helps us make sense of the images and sounds we're hearing. But every time the forward clock comes up, for me, it's a punch to the gut. Last episode we saw that it's been 60 days that our characters have lived in this new world of empty cities, free doordash, the closest thing humans can equate to godlike power thrust upon them. Cannibals you can coerce into great sex. And the confirmation that life exists outside our world. The fact that there are at most 12 people now, 11 left to defend the entire world from that is so scary to me. The genius of the show is that the gorgeous candy colored soap opera happening in the foreground makes these 60 quick days even more terrifying. 60 days of living in that mystery. Gone like that and it's normal now. It's done, it's over, move on. I don't think I could handle that. Truly a miracle that Carol and everyone else immune didn't go insane in that first episode. Strong minded lead characters in the show, which is part of the reason I love it. So I thought that was a great email.
- [34:15]
B
Absolutely. And also one of those things, Joe, that I think is most Covid coded about this kind of experience of living and watching this world is just that disconnect from, oh, it feels like a blink in some ways since Helen died. It feels like that happened yesterday. And yet there's so much time separating these things and so little in a way that, like, I don't know what would be a healthy response 60 to 70 days after basically the end of the world. Like, I don't know what we're supposed to be doing or Carol's supposed to be doing at this moment.
- [34:44]
A
Yeah. And I know, and I mean, well, maybe checking out books from the library on Faraday cages and, you know, making a plan with minusos. But like, I think it's interesting because in the early episodes we're like, give her a break. It's only been a week. Give her a break. It's only been 10 days. And now we're like, okay, Carol, it's been two months, 40 days of which she spent alone and kind of lost her marbles. So, like, Carol having lost her marbles a bit and getting them back together is a way, is a way in which I can like, hang with her through the tough look of this episode. But. But, yeah, Team Minusos, Team I have a purpose. Team I'm experimenting with radio frequencies and.
- [35:23]
B
Team Snap, baby, let's go.
- [35:25]
A
Would you respond to a snap, Rob?
- [35:28]
B
I'm sure I have at some point. Right. Like, inevitably someone has snapped at me before.
- [35:35]
A
How did you feel about the motion sensor in the liquor cabinet reveal?
- [35:40]
B
This was a great little twist.
- [35:41]
A
It was really good.
- [35:43]
B
And especially visually, you can obviously see it before he fumbles into it when.
- [35:47]
A
He first moves the liquor bottles. And I gasped, I was like, I.
- [35:51]
B
Know there is a bug, but wait, it's something that's actually so much more devastating than that. And I think as far as back footing Carol emotionally throughout this episode, how could you not feel sort of betrayed by your old life in finding that kind of information, in finding that kind of reveal about the person you cared about most in the world. And then all of a sudden, yeah, I can kind of get why she would take one stepping stone to think like, well, fuck all that I'm going to take. I'm going to jump on a plane or a helicopter with Zosia and we're going to head off to the beach. In the chalet and the pool, where I guess she just tells Zosia, like, so you go swim in that pool over there and I'm going to read here. Like, how much prescription is necessary for all this.
- [36:31]
A
So depressing. Go do laps while I watch you and read my book.
- [36:36]
B
I mean, well, look, some people are probably into that sort of thing. It feels depressing when you need to do it on a full time, constant, ongoing basis, at minimum. But to the Helen point of this, we know so little about their relationship. A lot of it is just impressionistic after the fact. Like, we've learned more about who Helen is after her death than we ever got to see of her alive. And this feels like something that, even with how little we know that that character might do, that character might.
- [37:04]
A
There's a Breathalyzer on the Range Rover, you know, I mean.
- [37:07]
B
Yeah, yeah. Clearly drinking is a capital P problem for Carol to the point that it has to be monitored throughout her life. And yeah, if you're going to be freezing your eggs, like, it feels like a fair. A fair consideration for someone like Helen. And yet it also feels like a betrayal.
- [37:23]
A
Absolutely. Never having known about it from Helen, having to hear Helen's true feelings about Bitter Chrysalis, having to discover that Helen put a motion sensor on here and Helen doesn't get to, like, as someone who loves her, explain to her why, you know, she did this betrayal. I don't think there's like a clean explanation, but it's. It would be different coming from Helen versus, like, Lear learning about it, without a doubt. The way in which Zoja. I don't. I don't think anyone's lying to Carol. But the. But the placating, the. When Minisos is first arriving and Carol's like, is that the guy I yelled to on the plane? And Zosia's like, well, you were going. You were dealing with a lot like that really insidious, like, you're always right. You're justified in your actions. Like, that sort of comfort that she offers her is so sticky inside of this world. And so, like, yeah, you. You understand why people fall for it. You absolutely do. It's just hard to watch Carol hold out and then fall for it and then, you know, return. Return to the cul de sac.
- [38:38]
B
But it is persuasive. And I think the difference is, look, the broad pitch was not persuasive to Carol as far as what the hive mind and their mission and that, but a more physical, living embodiment of it through Zosia and Someone who you're attracted to, who cares about you, who's expressing all of this and living with you. And I think, you know, for all the talk about time that we were just going through, like, if you were living 30 really intense days with the only other person you're in contact with on the planet, yeah, you're just gonna have a weird hyper connected bond that is kind of inexplicable that transcends any normal human relationship who was in your.
- [39:15]
A
Covid bubble, you know what I mean? Like, it was a great tester of relationships, but also, like, formed some real drama bonds. So. For sure, yeah. All right. Anything. I mean, like, I don't know, I don't really feel inclined to go, like, specifically beat by beat through this episode. I will shout out our listeners because we did get emails about Faraday Cages and frequencies like a couple weeks ago. So shout out to you guys for always being ahead of the game. I. I like, did a the Leo pointing meme. When I saw the spine of one of the books at Faraday Cages. I was like, like, our listeners are so good. Anything else you want to say about Manousas and his plan or their interaction or the use of the translator app inside of this episode, which I thought was a never ending source of comedy?
- [40:02]
B
Oh, for sure.
- [40:03]
A
What do you think?
- [40:03]
B
Especially when it was locked inside the sewer grate and I thought it was just going to stay there kind of idly speaking out throughout the episode. But Minutos did fish it out to his credit. I mean, Minutos in this episode, incredibly resourceful. Even the idea that he's like, grabbing these books on Faraday cages and like, pretty advanced physics and translating word by word, everything he doesn't understand, like, you can't knock the hustle of this man. Clearly he's just driven himself and hiked himself from Paraguay. So shout out to Minusos for his, like, endless devotion to the idea of, if not fixing the world, I guess, eradicating everyone on it. At this point, I find his philosophy and his code to be fascinating and contradictory. And Carol kind of calls him on it in terms of the ambulance part of it. And there's ways in which it makes total sense, and there's ways in which it just fails to really stand up to a lot of reason. But when he broaches the subject of specifically, is it evil to regard the life of an ant and the life of a human completely equally? Like, is that evil? And I don't know that I would put evil on it, but it is something. And it's something that we clearly aren't willing to do ever with most sources of life on this planet. Not just ants, but any other really animal that is subhuman, that is not human.
- [41:25]
A
Yeah. How dare you disrespect me. Look at me.
- [41:27]
B
With my human elitism.
- [41:29]
A
Your rugged human individualism. I think that it manusos with his like, you know, his, his. The spirit of his conviction, but also his like religious conviction. You know, like the use of evil here and how that soul. Yeah, and soul and how that ties into, you know, part of what drives him. And Carol does not have that as, as sort of an inspiration. But yeah, I, like, I would bump on the word evil, and I did, but I was also like. But like, philosophically, let's think about it, like regarding the life of the human, the same as an anti.
- [42:03]
B
Yes. I mean, if you put it to the real test of like, if you had the opportunity to save the life of an ant versus a human and you chose the ant, maybe that is evil.
- [42:14]
A
I don't know evil. But I would have some questions for you.
- [42:17]
B
I would certainly have some questions. That part goes without saying. But I think evil implies a certain level of malice that I think the hive mind doesn't really seem to exhibit, at least as far as we understand them so far. Yeah, like, I think there's ways in which they're manipulative and I want to maybe touch on some of those too. In particular when Zosia is trying to like hard sell Carol on, you know, becoming one with the universe.
- [42:43]
A
Yeah, tell me.
- [42:45]
B
I think it's very specifically when she busts out the, like, no, I love you, we love you, but also I love you. And just kind of reciting the thing that she has been taught to say to Carol back to her and exactly the way you were mentioning Joe, like, like Zojja has been conditioned to affirm Carol at basically every turn. I think there's part of that that's just like biological wiring. Right. Like they. This is a. An entity and a. I don't know, a consciousness, a species, however you want to define it does do those things. See, if we had gotten weirdos sooner, we could have just full on adopted weirdos. But now it's too late in the game. It's licked on the game. The licked and unlicked are right there for us and we will ride with the them to the end. But there was something so insidious about that to me, about. I'm gonna say the thing that I'm kind of programmed to Say, which is that we love you. And then I'm gonna say the thing that you told me to say that will make you happy. It's like, how can you ever feel great about any of this?
- [43:42]
A
Yeah. So at least Carol figured it out before the end of the episode. But tough to watch her tough look for our guy. Carol Sturka, unknown word to do all of this. All right. Anything else you want to say about this episode of television? Rob Mahoney.
- [43:59]
B
I really enjoyed this season, Joe.
- [44:01]
A
Me too.
- [44:02]
B
I know we've been picking some nits in terms of this finale. It's not the cleanest landing I've ever seen in the world. But again, going from the place of Carol not wanting anything to do with these people to basically being willing to give up all of existence for the sake of living her little life with Zosia is a tremendous accomplishment. Is a Breaking Bad kind of arc in its own fast forwarded over the course of one season. And, like, where does that leave her to go? Like, clearly she can sort of just backtrack into hard skepticism. What do we do with this atom bomb mode? But, like, I'm fascinated to know kind of what is the next wave of that emotional development for Carol? What do she and Minusos have to work on together other than Faraday cages and electromagnetic fields? And we should say, like, not really clear exactly how successful Minutsos has been to this point in terms of breaking through to actual Rick within hive mind. Rick, as he is seizing up after getting yelled at by Minusos, who clearly knows a thing or two. Like, he must have yelled at these people at some point enough to figure all this out too. So I'm very eager to see how all the mechanics of all that work as far as the season goes. I didn't need that stuff yet, but I think clearly a lot of viewers did and were waiting for the sort of like, okay, we want the next turn of the sci fi plot and not the next turn of Carol Sturka character study. Carol. I'm not even gonna try that one. No, absolutely not. Just gonna eject. I was cool with it. For the record, the Character Study Season 1 for Carol. This is captivating to you too.
- [45:38]
A
I mean, Racyhorn is so good. And I think what's interesting is if you've watched Better Call Saul, the love story between Jimmy McGill and Kim Wexler, which ebbs and flows over the course of all of these seasons, becomes the show in a very important way. All of the stakes hinge on it. And so I think this idea of like the Zoja Carol relationship. And like, what is it? What does it mean? Carol asking about, you know, did the you before? Like, I think she's sort of fishing to see if like. Like an unlicked Zoja would even be gay. You know what I mean? It's just sort of like, what? You know, what? Who were you? What are you? She's obviously not like, constantly interrogating her about that. But, like, that specific question I thought was interesting, but, like, it was like.
- [46:30]
B
Asking your partner or girlfriend or boyfriend about their exes, except their exes might be living within them as an alternate consciousness.
- [46:37]
A
Is that person with you?
- [46:39]
B
I'm kind of surprised it took us this long to get here, frankly.
- [46:41]
A
Is so and so in the room with us. Us. But like, I think I am invested in Zoja, and this is. This is something that's come up a couple times. But like, I don't know, Rick. So, you know, I am invested in minusos liberating original Rick, because I believe, and you can call me whatever you want, evil or whatever, if you want me to, but I believe original Rick has more of a right to exist than hive mind. Right, Rick? I don't know why. That's my philosophy, but that's my philosophy with Zoja. I don't know original Zoja. I only know the licked version of social, sorry, phrasing.
- [47:17]
B
But original Zosia still does have more of a right to exist than hive mind.
- [47:21]
A
I know, but that's a harder question to answer. And that's why this show is really good. And I really loved. I loved watching the show. I love talking to you about the show, and I loved hearing from our listeners about the show. And I feel really grateful that. That something like this exists that constantly inspires these, like, is it even living if there isn't art questions? Or, like, who has a better right to exist? Or et cetera, et cetera. And that's what I want this show to always be. Not like, necessarily, what are we going to do with the atomic bomb? But like, what philosophically should one do with the power of an atomic bomb at your fingertips, you know?
- [48:03]
B
Well, they made movies about that one too, I think.
- [48:05]
A
Have they? I've never. Never heard of it. Definitely didn't watch it with you.
- [48:10]
B
No, absolutely not.
- [48:11]
A
You know, it's. It's a great question. Anything else you want to say about Pluribus?
- [48:16]
B
I think in that vein, this has been such a rich show for thought and exploration and philosophy. And like, I mean, it really brought me back full circle to covering severance with you at the beginning of the year, Joe, because like I feel like these are the two shows that we've gotten this year that really delve into that space and or in various ways as well as far as like bigger ideas about life and culture and fascism and resistance and all those things. But these are a little bit more existential in, in a different way, in a maybe more literal way.
- [48:45]
A
I think at its best though, I don't think it was was at its best this season, but I think at its best White Lotus can also oh sure, do a version of that. But yeah, yeah, we're lucky that to get thank you Apple, thanks Steve Jobs and the rest for.
- [49:06]
B
That. Really pained you Joe.
- [49:08]
A
I don't like thinking a tech company, but your commitment to Sci Fi television is exemplary and Severance and Pluribus being bookends to this year is, you know, I feel really lucky to have them. So yeah, there really is something to that.
- [49:23]
B
I don't know what it is about Apple's programming or the powers that be that are particularly sci fi inclined, but we've seen it across some of the properties that they've developed and somebody's just like, who has the money to do this stuff? Whether it's Pluribus or otherwise. I'm glad that somebody does. Whether it's Apple or anyone else. I'm glad that a show like this can exist. This episode is brought to you by McAfee when it's game day, everything moves at full throttle. But McAfee's secure VPN is like your digital defensive line, always working to protect your info when you're on public Wi fi. Whether you're checking fantasy scores at the Watch party or posting pics at the stadium, visit mcafee.com online protection today to get award winning online protection for just $39.99 your first year. Cancel anytime terms apply. So good, so good, so good.
- [50:08]
A
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- [50:33]
B
This episode is brought to you by Rocket Money. Ever feel like your money just disappears each month? It's easier than ever to overspend from subscriptions piling up to impulse buys. After seeing an ad on your phone to Ordering takeout a few times a month. Rocket Money helps you rein it in by showing you where your money is going and helping you make better decisions so you can keep more money in your pocket. Rocket Money is a personal finance app that helps find and cancel your unwanted subscriptions, monitors your spending, and helps lower your bills so you can grow your savings. Their dashboard lays out your total financial picture, including bill due dates and paydays, in a way that's easy to digest. You can even automatically create custom budgets based on your past spending. If you've got a goal you'd like to save for, Rocket Money can analyze your accounts to find the best time each month. To put extra money aside, Rocket Money has saved users over 2.5 billion, including over 880 million in canceled subscriptions alone. Their 10 million members save up to 740 a year when they use all of the app's premium features. Cancel your unwanted subscriptions. Reach your financial goals faster with Rocket money. Go to Rocketmoney.com theringer that is Rocketmoney.com theringer Rocketmoney.com theringer I'm glad I get to talk about it with you, Joe.
- [51:51]
A
Same. Rob, do you want to hit us with some of these mailbag questions?
- [51:56]
B
Joe, I want to start with this question we got from Lauren, who asked, you know, for those who haven't been following along every show to every show with us, how you and I got started podcasting together. Where do you want to start with that story?
- [52:08]
A
It's I believe, because I checked the record. It's April 2023.
- [52:13]
B
Wow.
- [52:14]
A
And it is. I know. It's longer than I thought than I thought it was.
- [52:17]
B
Speaking of temporal dissonance, like that is. I don't like hearing that. But also, I love hearing that it.
- [52:23]
A
Was love and death. Right. Was the first episode we did.
- [52:27]
B
Was it?
- [52:27]
A
Wasn't it? What do you think it was?
- [52:29]
B
I think it was. Fleischmann is in trouble.
- [52:31]
A
You said that. You said that the other day. Okay, well, that might be earlier. Why don't. Why don't you say what you remember and I will consult the record.
- [52:38]
B
What I remember is that this was a Bill Simmons matchmaking podcast. Matchmaking of. I think you guys would podcast well together. And guess what? He was right.
- [52:48]
A
Yeah.
- [52:48]
B
Guess what? It's been super fun. I don't know what, like, chemistry or alchemy Bill sees in the universe, but apparently he's got it going on sometimes.
- [52:56]
A
You're right, because, like, Poker Face was even before. Okay, so that brings us back to God. Well, here's the point. The. The prestige TV podcast feed in the year of our Lord, 20. This is November 2022.
- [53:12]
B
Oh, boy.
- [53:12]
A
Wow. Wow, wow. Anyway, the. The Prestige feed used to be a much more chaotic place. And I. With love and respect. Okay, no, you and I. I did. November was with Sean. December 2022. I did that with you. Okay. So messages from Bill, and he was like, I want you to do this show with this person. And oftentimes it was someone that I never met before, and it would just be like my introduction to a person would be a podcast. And so correct if I'm wrong, but we had never had a conversation before. We did.
- [53:47]
B
No.
- [53:48]
A
Fleischman is in trouble. So that's our first. So if you want to hear our first conversation together, it's.
- [53:54]
B
I wonder how it holds up. Yeah. I wonder what that. Joe and Rob are like. Like, you know, like, did they have bits? Did they have banter? I don't even know what we were.
- [54:02]
A
Like back then, but I will say that, like, you came so prepared. And then we did talk about Poker Face after that, and then love and death. But I think. I think about love and death a lot because we were talking about being Texan, and that's the first time I ever heard you make your favorite joke, which is like, my culture is not your costume, and it's one of my favorite.
- [54:23]
B
You don't want to air out the fact that I'm reusing losing jokes out here every time. It's new and fresh, I promise.
- [54:29]
A
But you came so prepared. And also, like, you and I talked about when we covered Poker Face week to week, like, just sort of the. How nice it is to sort of dig deep into something and just sort of spend several weeks with it. So, like, previously, though, we had covered shows like Succession, et cetera, et cetera on the feed. It wasn't necessarily the norm to have, like, we're gonna cover a full season of television. That's something that you and I like to do, or at least. Least I like to do. And you have decided to do it as well. I knew you from Twitter mostly. Since I'm not a basketball person. I didn't. Like, I wasn't really aware of your work very much, but that is. That is how I. And then you. Yeah, you. You're like, oh, my wife and I love Doctor who, and I love Buffy and all this other stuff like that. So that was helpful in feeling like I. We spoke the same language, I guess.
- [55:17]
B
Yes. I mean, I think that was pretty clear as soon as we started potting together. And you're right. I think the, the way that the feed has sort of settled is a lot in what we are interested in talking about and the way we want to cover TV and getting from the like, here's a one off Fleischman or Love and Death pod to here is every episode of Poker Face or every episode of whatever. It's just like a totally different kind of coverage. And ultimately I'm on the same page as you. It's just more inviting to invest in that kind of way. That's what I like listening to. It's. I want to be along for the journey of a season of a show with people I like hearing from. And it's great when they do it on a little one off basis as well. And we certainly still do that from time, you know, time and again, depending on what the show is. But it's just a different thing when you're covering a full season.
- [56:05]
A
It's true. All right, what do you want to answer next?
- [56:11]
B
Why don't we go just straight down, Straight down the doc.
- [56:14]
A
Joe, one more thing really quickly. You live in the Bay Area. You lived in the Bay Area at the time. And so that was like an added thing. Not that like we saw each other that much, but like occasionally we like went to screenings or whatever. So that was just like there were very few at that time and now even fewer ringer people in, in Northern California. So that was like a thing too.
- [56:32]
B
I mean, yeah, there was a weird little Bay Area kind of stronghold that developed over time, but you know, just, just a couple of us holding out and increasingly not holding out so much. So you know what dissolved one of those things. But I do think I had you at a slight disadvantage just for the sake of like, I had been listening to your podcasts for a long time and so the fact that I was able to come in, like I know the Joanna Robinson brand, I know how this tends to go and I am eager to participate in it because I love listening to you, especially covering Game of Thrones. So sometimes we just luck into these things and you get a text from Bill that's like, hey, do you want to cover a new show with one of your favorite podcasters? Yeah, I think I'd like to do that.
- [57:14]
A
Well, I feel very lucky and I'm really excited for next year because there's like a bunch of stuff that I'm really excited to cover with you, so.
- [57:21]
B
Well, why don't we, why don't we jump there? Joe? Michael, emailed us to ask, what are your top five most anticipated shows for 2026?
- [57:29]
A
I do have a list for this. Let me pull it up.
- [57:33]
B
I also have a list. I also. I was trying to not go to things that we talk about all the time. Okay, you know, what are some other shows that are not just like, screw it. Look, the actual answ might be the Pit Season 2, but that kind of goes without saying. We're going to return to many of the shows that we've been covering in the past, including the Pit one. I want to get you up on, though, Joe, is Paradise. Have you seen Paradise Season 1 as of yet?
- [57:58]
A
No, I have not.
- [58:00]
B
I'm just going to. I'm just going to, you know, drop little breadcrumbs here and there. When is it coming back into that world?
- [58:05]
A
There was like a. There was a trailer for it, was there not?
- [58:10]
B
So the date that I'm seeing is February 23, 2026. We will see if that is indeed true.
- [58:17]
A
I was gonna say if it comes back at a time that's like a little quiet, I would happily commit to that for you, Rob. But we're gonna be pitting and still industrying, I think, and Night of the Seven Kingdoming, so. But I will consider it. I promise to consider it.
- [58:39]
B
This is all I ask. A batshit insane show and, like, heavy premise show that I don't know what they're gonna do with season two. And I'm very eager to see. What is one of your most anticipated shows, Jo?
- [58:51]
A
Well, it's. What's interesting to me is that this is a really good year for prestige TV and a really bad year for House of R. I think the. The genre podcast that I do, just in case folks don't listen to both. And next year, a lot of the shows that I have on my list.
- [59:06]
B
Let me stop you right there. Not for House of R, but for the things that House of R covers.
- [59:11]
A
And thank you so much, Rob. Thanks for that clarification.
- [59:13]
B
Look, as a listener, I gotta stand up for it, you know, I gotta throw myself in front of the. On the sword, in front of the bullet, whatever the metaphor is.
- [59:21]
A
I think that the Marvel offerings next year, which are Wonder man and Vision Quest, are actually kind of intriguing to me in a way that I haven't felt for a while with Marvel shows. Lanterns on hbo.
- [59:35]
B
Very exciting.
- [59:35]
A
It's something I'm very excited about. And then the vampire Lestat, which is Interview with a Vampire Season three, is like, very, very high on my list. Anything else you have that Is not paradise or pitting or industry. I have one more after that, but anyway.
- [59:52]
B
Oh, yeah. Buffy the Vampire Slayer. Have you heard of it? Theoretically coming out in 2026.
- [60:00]
A
What are we gonna do? I'm just gonna.
- [60:01]
B
Look, I'm just gonna lay it down right now. That cannot be a Joe and Mal only house of our joy. I refuse to be boxed out of Buffy.
- [60:10]
A
I kind of agree. I mean, we'll talk to Val about it, but I kind of agree. And I think Mal will agree.
- [60:14]
B
I will fight Mal if I have to fight Mal. I'm just saying right now, we proved.
- [60:17]
A
That we could do three of us together with alien Earth. So, yeah, I would feel very weird covering a Buffy show without both of you. So I asked.
- [60:29]
B
I really hope it's good.
- [60:30]
A
I. I'm really worried.
- [60:33]
B
I don't know, but I just hope. I hope and dream.
- [60:36]
A
I was curious about fx, because usually there's like, an FX show that I'm excited about, and I was looking at the FX offering, and I was like, I don't know. But I was told by someone who I trust that love story, which does have Ryan Murphy's name on it. So I was worried. But I was told that perhaps it is a bit more like People versus OJ Than it is another sort of Ryan. But this is a JFK, the JFK Jr. Carolyn Bessette story. And I have been told that it is actually quite good. I have not seen it, but that I'm. I am. I trust this person. I was like, I know you would not burn your cred with me over Ryan Murphy Show Her Love Story. So I trust that person. But, yeah, it's a. It's an interesting year coming up. I'm really excited. I think it's gonna be good.
- [61:23]
B
I think there's gonna be a lot of good stuff. I mean, Beef season two is kind of jumping off the page for me, too. If you're not familiar with the cast of Beef Season 2. Oscar Isaac, Carey Mulligan, Charles Melton, Cailee Spanny Song fucking Kang Ho on television. Let's go.
- [61:40]
A
Who's on my wall? Always. I think that, like, you watch Knives out, right?
- [61:47]
B
Yes.
- [61:48]
A
Wake up, dead man. Of all the people where I'm like, why are you here? That use of Cailee Spanny was, like, really confusing to me.
- [61:55]
B
Cailee Spanny, comma cellist didn't do it for you?
- [61:59]
A
This is not. Would you, Sir. Okay. What do you.
- [62:00]
B
It's honestly a problem with a lot of that cast, to the point that, you know what I Have I have a relevant hook? Joe, I want to jump to a question from Carly, who was asking us about this upcoming season of White Lotus, which has been heavily rumored to be snowbound in some way. Ski resort White Lotus. You know, the details are still being sussed out. Yes. Cold Lotus and who we would like to see on that show. Carly pointed out John Cusack as an option that I think would actually be quite good. Bob Balaban, one of our faves. As far as, like, the requisite Christopher Guest spot. Who would you like to see on a Cold Lotus?
- [62:35]
A
I'm so glad you said this because I just want to let you know that one of my bullet points that I wrote in my notes here at the top of this list that I came up with was, Rob, do you want something different from a White Lotus cast that you want from a knives out cast? Like, do you. Like, do you want the same thing or do you want something different?
- [62:51]
B
I'm just treating it as a do over. So my relevant knives out casting is I want to give Andrew Scott more to do on this version of White Anything to do. Yeah, I mean, had some. Had some good laughs and wake up dead man. But ultimately they just didn't know what to do with any of those supporting players in them. Anyone who's not Josh o' Connor or Josh Brolin, even including Daniel Craig, I would say in that movie, they don't quite know what to do with Glenn Close.
- [63:15]
A
I think got something to do, but that's true, honestly.
- [63:18]
B
Fair point.
- [63:18]
A
Glenn Close is pretty cool. Like, why is Mila Kudis here? Why is Andrew Scott here? Why is. Yeah, exactly.
- [63:24]
B
That's Deputy Mila Kunis to you.
- [63:25]
A
Thank you so much. On the knives out front, the knives out people that I would bring over here is actually I would go back to the first Knives out movie and I would bring either Toni Collette or Don Johnson to the White Lotus. I think both of them would be very delightful. On the Christopher Guest front. I believe we deserve Catherine o' Hara at the White Lotus and I don't know what I have to do to get it. I don't want Moira Rose there necessarily because. Because, like, I. But I. But I want Katherine Hera in increasingly ridiculous fur hats. I don't think we're getting Cold Lotus, but, like, I'm willing to play this game. Rose Byrne, who's like, equally good at comedy and drama, and I'm just like a huge, huge fan of. Obviously this is a big year for Roseburn, so maybe she thinks she's too good For White Lotus now, but I don't know. And then I should say there's a casting rumor going around from the infinitely unreliable Deux Moi. Not your source for casting news, let me just say, but on the list, Rachel Weisz and Maya Rudolph.
- [64:28]
B
I mean, you don't need to twist my arm in either case. That sounds wonderful.
- [64:33]
A
Anyone else?
- [64:33]
B
You also. I mean, if you ask me to cast anything, wish cast or otherwise, Dan Stevens is always on my list.
- [64:40]
A
That's such a good one. That's.
- [64:43]
B
So let's get Dan Stevens at the White Lotus.
- [64:45]
A
That's so good. Is he. Is he English or American?
- [64:49]
B
Great question. I think, honestly, I like him playing American because he comes off as so weird when he does his American accent that I think it kind of works for, like, the Arch White Lotus stuff. I would love to see Palm Clementif in something like this. I think she. You know, I've enjoyed, certainly the Guardians experience. Also the Mission Impossible Crazy Stabby experience. Both those versions of Palm I really liked a lot. But let's see her as, like, you know, a bougie woman of leisure. I think she could really pull it off.
- [65:16]
A
Very good, Very good. All right, what's next?
- [65:22]
B
Why don't we go to some other of our shows that we covered this year? Non White Lotus division. Joe, we got an email from Roy. If Pluribus took place in the world of severance, what do you think would happen to the severed employees? So we're just layering sci fi on top of sci fi to understand our lyrics?
- [65:39]
A
Yeah, we kind of tried. Tried to talk about this. I did a really bad job trying to talk about this the other day on the pod, I think. Right. Leaving the habitat would, quote, kill them and staying wouldn't help the hive mind and all. And if someone is immune, what would that be like? I don't. I mean, yeah, this is making my brain goo. Honestly, try to think about this. Do you have a good answer for this?
- [66:00]
B
Well, so everything that's happening with the hive mind is sort of electromagnetic. And everything that's happening in severance is more like strictly hardware, I guess. It's also electromagnetic.
- [66:12]
A
Is it hardware?
- [66:15]
B
I mean, there's a physical chip in there. Yeah, there's a thing in there.
- [66:20]
A
But would a frequency override the thing?
- [66:24]
B
Ultimately, this is like how much faith you have in technology. And my answer these days is I have faith in it for roughly two and a half years. And then the planned obsolescence will phase out and you need to get your new Severance chip upgrade. So maybe it would Save you for a time. But ultimately it's not going to keep you separated from the hive mind forever.
- [66:41]
A
Sounds right.
- [66:42]
B
They will find their way with a smile. With a smile. But let's. Let's zoom all the way out. Joe, we got an email from Chris who was asking for our top shows of 20, 25. He asked for a top 10. I'm going to trim it to a top five just because we had other emails to get through. What were. Do you have, like, a definitive top five this year? Was this an easy exercise for you?
- [67:03]
A
Yes, I think so. I'm. Andor number one is the easiest thing I could possibly do. And you still haven't seen andor season two. Correct. I'm not trying to call you out. I'm just gonna gently pressure you.
- [67:15]
B
I have it here with a hard asterisk because I am so certain this would be in my top five if I completed the season. And I just haven't gotten there yet. So maybe in my sick days ahead and. Or I'll be watching. I've already been doing some west wing comfort watching. You know, know we're going to find room for some real heavy hitters in here.
- [67:31]
A
I would say it's. Andor number one, easily the pit number two, easily. For me, task number three. That has a lot to do with, like, our experience covering it, I think.
- [67:40]
B
Yes.
- [67:41]
A
Adolescence.
- [67:42]
B
It's really hard to separate those at this point.
- [67:44]
A
And that's what I love about what we do, honestly, because it's just like it deepens my love and understanding of these various properties. I feel really lucky. So andor the pit tell task adolescence. I honestly think before the pluris finale, pluris might have taken the fifth spot. But I gotta say, I also watched the heated rivalry finale this week, and it was really, really good. So I think I'm putting heated rivalry for number five. Number five. Yeah.
- [68:10]
B
Okay, now I definitely need to watch he.
- [68:11]
A
That's recency bias. That's like me still, like, brushing the tears out of my eyes as I finish the season. But I got. I gotta, like, vote with my heart, so that's what I got. What about about you?
- [68:22]
B
I'm very glad we're aligned on the pit. Like, the pit is my highest show. That is not andor because I have not seen andor so for me, at this point, the pit is number one, Adolescence number two. And that's a hard one for me. I think adolescence is quite technically perfect within the scope of what it's trying to do. But it's also. That's a tough rewatch versus full series. It is a tough rewatch. And I think the volume and the high wire act of what the Pit is doing over the course of its full season to me registered and really hit me emotionally even harder than adolescence did, which is really saying something. But adolescence number two, I had severance number three, task number four, and I did put in Pluribus as number five. Although my heated rivalry is the chair company that might be the one that's really threatening my list, I should say. For some of us, it's hockey erotica. For some of us, it's weirdos on a journey of following the rabbit hole as deep as it goes.
- [69:16]
A
You keep using the phrase erotica, and I just don't think that that is correct.
- [69:18]
B
Is it not?
- [69:19]
A
I don't know. I don't think so. It's muddy hockey softcore. Yeah, hockey softcore.
- [69:25]
B
Okay. I don't mean to overstate. Again, I have not seen an episode. I'm only going off of the impressions that other people have given me.
- [69:32]
A
I think erotica indicates, like, a. There's, like, a level of unseriousness that heated rivalry has.
- [69:40]
B
You know, I don't mean to imply that at all, frankly.
- [69:43]
A
Right. That. Like.
- [69:44]
B
Like melodrama. Sure. But on seriousness. No, no, no.
- [69:47]
A
It is unserious. Like, like, is it? No, I think erotica is, like, too, like, too high minded. Yeah. Kind of.
- [69:58]
B
Oh, wow.
- [69:59]
A
And this is.
- [69:59]
B
I thought this was going very differently.
- [70:01]
A
This is smutty. It's also very emotional and, like, very well done. But it's all. It's like normal people, but even more sex, I guess, is what I would say. Would you call normal people erotica? Like, I don't think you would. You know.
- [70:15]
B
It'S a fair question. It really borders on the line at some points. And it's not emotional erotica because it's. I mean, that show just messes you up, so it's not really hitting the same pleasure points that you might hope it would. So I think I would not. And you would put it in a similar genre.
- [70:31]
A
I mean, heated rivalry is. I don't know. Let's talk about it once.
- [70:35]
B
The normal people of our time kind of is.
- [70:37]
A
Once you've seen it, let's talk about it. I think it'll be interesting. I would also say on my long list, severance, White Lotus, the studio taskmaster, which I know we have a question about, definitely was, like, an incredible season and the lowdown. So.
- [70:48]
B
Yeah, well, let's jump straight to that taskmaster question, which is Actually, from my friend Eileen, who wants to know about a huge Joanna Robinson fan, I should say, would love to hear. She hears my thoughts all the time. I think she really wants to hear your thoughts on Taskmaster Series 19 and any Champions of Champions related hopes for the fourth special.
- [71:08]
A
So, Eileen, can I just say, unfortunately, as like, spoiled myself when I was like, Googling like, who's on the Champion of Champions again? And then like, stupid Google told me who won the thing. So that's okay. That's my. That's my fault. I should have known better.
- [71:21]
B
How do you feel about those overall? Like, do you like the Taskmaster specials as much as the proper season?
- [71:26]
A
So Champion of Champions is when they take the winners of, like, the previous five season and put them all together and they've done it sort of sporadically across the series. I don't like them as much as a full season because it. Here's so my answer about Taskmaster Series 19, which was a huge breakout moment for Taskmaster in the US because Jason Manzukis was on and he was like, spectacularly, oh, incredible. I, you know, Jason, a friend of the ringer, not like a personal friend, but I did run into him in the courtyard of. Of the offices. He was there, you know, recording the watch with. With Chris, and you know, he's like, Joanna Robinson. I was like, oh, my God, Jason. Blah, blah. And I just, just grilled him about Taskmaster. It had not come out yet, and I was just like, that's all I talked to him about. I was like, tell me about your experience. Blah, blah, blah. Tell me about this. Tell me about that. Because I'm such a huge.
- [72:14]
B
Yeah, other. Other people out there running into Jason, like, tell me about John Wick. Tell me about how did this get made? We are not the same. Joe just wants to know the ins and outs of the Taskmaster production.
- [72:24]
A
I did. I was like, I was like, do they have. I like, I had a lot of, like, very specific questions for him, but he was phenomenal on. On the show. And it got a lot of people in my life who have never watched Taskmaster to watch it because, like, a lot of his clips went viral and stuff like that. And he was a huge fan of the show before he went on. But for me, a joy of any season of Taskmaster, where they take five comedians and sort of you spend all season with them doing tasks like that, is getting to know people that I had never seen before. So Jason, I'm familiar with his exquisite comedy, but Fatiel Ghori, I had never seen before. And she's just like such a rock star in that season. She's so funny. So that was like my. My standout was like getting to know her. The this, the moment when she was talking about her Batman themed childhood bedroom. I will never forget. So that's.
- [73:19]
B
She's an all timer as far as Taskmaster contestants go. And to the point that like her and Greg's relationship as far as in the studio debriefing all of these tasks is just like one of the best things I've ever seen on the show. I do think in terms of the tasks, the one that I will take away and it's like the easiest poll for me from series 19 is the P Olympics, which I think is in episode one. It's just like what I love about Taskmaster is the descent into madness of these contestants who are used to being pretty good at things and are disastrously bad at. At throwing a pee and then needing to go find it in a field. Somewhere in a field. And also Jason deciding that the best way to catch a pea coming out of a catapult is to put his face right next to the catapult and just launch it directly into his mouth, crushing it. So innovation happening right before our eyes.
- [74:05]
A
I will also say Matthew Bainton's extremely tiny shorts that he decided to wear the entire season is the gift that keeps on giving.
- [74:14]
B
How do the contestants not know at this point that if you show up in, for example, a Bruce Lee outfit that it will come to haunt you you when you need to do it every day for the rest of the season?
- [74:24]
A
I don't know when your last name is Wang, you. You can do whatever you want. I think you gotta lean in. Yeah. But for the champion. I will just say for the champions of champions, even though that has been spoiled for me as to who won. Sam Campbell, who has been like was a real standout in his. He's. I'm excited to. To watch him back in the studio again. That'll be really fun.
- [74:46]
B
So I know it is. I think main series are the best thing that Taskmaster has going. I've actually heard great things about. I think it's the New Zealand offshoot.
- [74:54]
A
I've watched New Zealand.
- [74:56]
B
That's quite funny.
- [74:56]
A
Australia Taskmaster is also really funny. Yes.
- [74:59]
B
American. Infamously not funny. Just a train wreck. Champion of Champions. Good. But you're right. You're missing that kind of connective tissue building up over a long period of time with these people. I think the celebrity level, like holiday themed specials are probably the least of them to me. Just because it's sometimes the, sometimes the contestants just don't even know quite what they're getting right.
- [75:21]
A
And they're like not as game for like, you know, making asses of themselves. So sometimes they are. Eileen, if you ever want to just talk to me directly about Taskmaster, I am available. Let me know.
- [75:33]
B
Wow, this is going to make her day. I will make the connection. Joe, I want to jump to this question from Anthony. Of all the TV shows that aired in 2025, which character crossover would like to see, for example, Dr. Robbie from the Pit appearing as one of the doctors treating Zoja and Pluribus? Or Agent Tom Brandis taking a well deserved vacation at the White Lotus after the events of tasks. He would not even know what to do with himself, for the record. But did you have any crossovers you would love to see?
- [76:00]
A
Okay, if I'm sending any characters, character characters from one of the shows to the White Lotus, it's Maeve and the kids. Maeve, take the kids to White Lotus.
- [76:13]
B
Give them a break.
- [76:14]
A
You know, maybe a non Murdery Lotus. I don't know if any of those are available to you, but Maeve and the kids should go to the White Lotus to enjoy themselves, not to solve a murder or potentially die. And then speak of Task, I want to send Nurse Dana from the Pit to just clean house in the Task universe. The no nonsense Nurse Dana energy inside of the Task universe. I think we deserve this.
- [76:40]
B
So, you know, she might be running the Dark Hearts, given a couple of months, you know, just I, I put nothing past her.
- [76:46]
A
I think she would have like spotted Grasso like immediately. So. Yeah, that's, that's, that's sort of what I'm thinking. What about you?
- [76:56]
B
I have four options for you, Joe. I would love, I would love for you to pick of these four, which one you like the best? Jackson Lamb at the White Lotus. It could be sunning, it could be snowing, whatever, whatever you prefer mention.
- [77:07]
A
So. Horses. Yeah, yeah. Jackson Lamb at the White Loads. He would hate it, but there would be a lot of noodles, so that would be nice.
- [77:14]
B
It's very true. Number two, Jackson Lamb as a cyborg in Alien Earth. You may be sensing a theme. Number three, Jackson Lamb just strolling around LA and nobody wants this. Trying to put up with Kristen Bell and Adam Brody's whole deal. That show needed a Jackson Lamb, frankly.
- [77:30]
A
Needs Jackson Lamb like nobody's business desperately.
- [77:35]
B
Or four, fuck it, Jackson Lamb and heated rivalry. I don't know who he plays or what he is. Maybe he's the coach of one of these teams, you know, or maybe he's just Jackson Lamb, a hockey enthusiast.
- [77:46]
A
I really. I think we need to send him to LA to straighten out the. Nobody wants this crowd. Because I had some. A terrible time with season two of Nobody Wants this.
- [77:57]
B
So not a good season, you know, especially for, like, a group of actors I really like and a season of I just did not like. So let's put one more actor we love who can just cut up and undercut everything that's happening. Jackson Lamb and everything is my general contention.
- [78:11]
A
That's a great bit. Good job.
- [78:13]
B
Let's go to this email from Danny. Which show has your favorite intro sequence? And would you abolish the skip intro button to force everyone else to enjoy it? This is part of a larger riff from Danny about the power of being able to abolish the skip intro button, which I've got to say, I think there really is something to be said said about getting in the mood for a show through its intro sequence. And if you are skipping every time, I think you are doing yourself a little bit of a disservice, particularly if you're parachuting in for one or two episodes at a time. If it's a bin, a full binge, maybe it's different, but you got to let yourself get in the head.
- [78:47]
A
Yeah, on a binge. I will, like, skip intro for, like, a Netflix show or something like that. But I, you know, especially I kind of miss. This is gonna make me sound extremely old. Like, what about theme songs with words to them that you like that was just a theme song for a show that you knew. Like, I have a pal who. We were. We were both latchkey kids in the 80s and 90s. And so, like, we know way too many TV theme songs. And so we will just, like, sing the Growing Pains theme song or the Family Matters theme song or the Perfect Strangers theme song where I know all the worst. All of those. Unfortunately. They're rattling around my brain. But, I mean, I would never skip the Buffy intro ever. Not even on a bass. Why would you, you know, know starts with a howl. If you're in the earlier seasons, you get the scream. That happens. I mean, Nerf Herder. Very important to the whole experience. Stuff like Mad Men or Friday Night Light, Friday Night Lights. Like, that just puts you in the mood for what you're about to watch.
- [79:47]
B
It puts you in the mood so well, that Landman is like, what if we also just tried to do that exact same thing?
- [79:52]
A
I know.
- [79:53]
B
Even though our show is a totally different.
- [79:55]
A
One of my biggest beasts with Land man man, season one was the Stolen Valor of the Friday Lights intro that was happening. Thrones, obviously is a gimme. Westworld was extremely good.
- [80:08]
B
See, but I think Thrones is a good example. That's one that I will skip over time. It's like, I enjoy it, but it is quite long.
- [80:15]
A
But it would tell you where it was going. Like, it would.
- [80:19]
B
I don't want to know where it's going. That's what I'm saying.
- [80:21]
A
I don't want the tease that was utilitarian. It would tell me, oh, my God, we're. We're going. We're going back to Bravo.
- [80:28]
B
So.
- [80:28]
A
No. All right. And then did you ever watch the TV show Terriers? One's one and done on Love Terriers, that has an incredibly good theme song that I like. Like, there's. There are theme songs that, like, make you want to dance around the living room, and that's one of them. So, yeah, what do you.
- [80:44]
B
That's the key is what, what makes you want to dance as you get up to, like, go get another can of something or a snack and you're like dancing your way to the kitchen as the theme song plays, I think is critical. But Terriers, to me is locking in on, I think, what might just be the high point. That era of TV to me has so many great opening themes. Who would we be if we did not mention Justified? Joe Gangsta Grass for life.
- [81:06]
A
It's still my alarm song on my phone.
- [81:11]
B
I think that's a perfect one because you go through the whole arc of it of, like, at some point you're like, oh, this is terrible. But then you come to love it. It's like a post irony thing, but it's just so good. I also did unapologetically love the True Blood opening theme. I guess I love to watch a decaying animal, but it's just very hooky.
- [81:28]
A
Yeah, that's Chris Isaac, right? Yeah, that was a really good one.
- [81:31]
B
Great one. And to your point about now, so many shows don't have, it's a lot of wordless musical interludes increasingly shorter and shorter. Like Pluribus is where it's just like a little sting almost at this point, I think the great wordless ones, you can almost create your own words too. I'm guilty of at various times in my life singing along to the Battlestar Galactica theme.
- [81:54]
A
And it goes like, what, Rob?
- [81:56]
B
Well, that's a paid content. We're going to have to get the subscribers to really pony up for the.
- [82:01]
A
Battlestar Galactic of the year is our last podcast. Of the year is the holiday season. And you're going to tell me that you sing along to the Battlestar Galactica theme song and you're not going to do it?
- [82:12]
B
That's correct. Sounds like a great aspiration for 2026. Next email, Joe. That we got from Matthew.
- [82:18]
A
No, no, no. What did Jomi tell you about no budding bits? Yes, Anding is what we do on this podcast. That's really disappointing, Rob. Really tough.
- [82:29]
B
That's called a tease, Joe. We're trying to keep people coming back for new shows. We can't give them everything.
- [82:34]
A
Have I shared with you the lyrics that I sing to the various Lord of the Rings themes?
- [82:39]
B
No.
- [82:40]
A
And don't you want to hear them right now?
- [82:42]
B
I do. Maybe we might have to arrange a trade at some point. I didn't realize you did all of the book and lyrics for the Lord of the Rings musical. You were locked in like that.
- [82:51]
A
Oh, yeah, yeah. No, they're really good lyrics, let me tell you. Me at my best.
- [82:57]
B
Well, while we're getting into your literary exploits, Joe, I want to go to this email from Matthew, who asked specifically, based on the strength of your Ringerverse recommends picks, what TV shows you or what books you would love to see adapted into a TV show. As you know, this is squarely outside my depth, so I'm curious if you have any that you've just been waiting to see.
- [83:17]
A
Yeah, I've got some. Definitely some old ones that I'm still waiting for the Alanna books by Tamara Pierce to be made into books. That's about a girl who pretends to be a boy so she can become a knight. Sounds great. You should read it. You should watch it. Terry Pratchett books, they have never been adapted correctly. I'm still waiting for that to happen.
- [83:37]
B
And that's kind of more high fantasy.
- [83:38]
A
Yeah.
- [83:39]
B
Like DND style storytelling.
- [83:42]
A
Yeah. Yeah, I would say so.
- [83:43]
B
Dark elves and whatnot.
- [83:45]
A
Dark elves. You have to shape up if you're going to come over to House of R for Buffy. You can't say dark elves and whatnot.
- [83:52]
B
Buffy's Buffy is a different thing. You know, I think. I think I can get away with dark elves and whatnot.
- [83:59]
A
More recently, the Green Bone Saga by Fonda Lee is something that people are really, really hoping gets turned to something that's jade city. Jade war, Jade legacy. Just like a really good. Again, like, this is all sort of in the fantasy space because when you say book series, like I'm not a cr. Where I read a bunch of like espionage series books or mystery series books. So when it comes to series, it's usually sci fi. Fantasy is what I tend to get into. I will add Leigh Bardugo has a series of books, you know, they did Shadow and Bone for Netflix kind of poorly, but Ninth House, Hell Bent and then. And the third and final one, Deadbeat is coming out next year and it's about a. I'm gonna pitch you on this premise. A 20 year old high school dropout and trauma survivor who can see ghosts is surprisingly offered a full ride to Yale. Recruited into the quote, 9th House, she must monitor the eight secret societies that practice dangerous occult magic. So basically Rob in Buff, you know, the Buffy episode, the, the, the frat episode with the of course the demon lizard patriarchy.
- [85:05]
B
It goes great. This is all the frat episodes go.
- [85:08]
A
But this is basically the idea is that like all of the houses at Yale are secretly like practicing occult magic. And that's how they can, like these people can graduate and run the stock market and stuff like that and just sort of like. So they bring in this girl who is. Was not born a privilege and sort of the way in which she overturns this system while she's there. So that's a really good one. And then last note least.
- [85:32]
B
Yeah, hold on. So she's brought in to basically be a cop.
- [85:37]
A
No, I mean she. So she can see ghosts, which is not a normal thing. I think you're thinking of Ghost Whisperer and I don't blame you for that. But she can see ghosts. So she's brought in as like an asset inside of these like ceremonies that they, they're like, you can study for free at Yale, but we're gonna need you to show up at these ceremonies and sort of like, you know, know, handle the overspill, the magical overspill and stuff like that. So I like. And then hell bent, the second one, we go to hell, which is great. Last but not least, inside of this heated rivalry moment that we find ourselves inside of this like horny television moment, I will say that there's an author, Penny Reed. This is not on the caliber of any of my rigor verse recommends things, but Penny Reed has written a ser. I'm just going to hit you with the title of these books because I think you're going to hate them and it's going to make me laugh. So it's a series of books called the Winston Brothers and it's Like. Like Bridgerton, where it's like all these members of the family are, like, various. It sets. Takes place in a small Tennessee town. We're inside of a family of, like, a bunch of brothers, but every single title has the word beard in it.
- [86:47]
B
I'm already. I'm already not loving where this is going.
- [86:50]
A
So Beard science is one of them. And you're kind of like, okay. Like, you don't like a pun. Weird science, though. Beard Science. Science, science. Grin and beard it. Okay. Grin and bear it. Like, whatever. Truth or beard. I feel like we just gave up at that point. Dr. Strange Beard. Okay. Maybe beard necessities kind of.
- [87:10]
B
Wait, Dr. Strange Beard is one.
- [87:12]
A
Yeah.
- [87:13]
B
Because I think he's just subbing in.
- [87:14]
A
Any word. I think he's a vet. And then bearded mind. Like, it's just. It's truth or Beard is my favorite one because I'm just like. We just did not even try on that one anyway. But I think the Winston brothers books are really, surprisingly funny and could make a really good show. Smutty or not, but. But why not smutty? This is. Apparently some people want. So that's my chaotic answer to that question. A lot of people. No. I mean, like, yes, me, but, like, heated rivalry is crazy popular.
- [87:46]
B
Oh, it's a phenomenon.
- [87:48]
A
So it's not just me.
- [87:50]
B
No. I think we should have more smutty tv. I think. Look, if we want to tip the scales a little bit, I'm even willing to give up some of our, like, prestigious. Like, I'm willing to trade.
- [87:58]
A
Yeah.
- [87:59]
B
Two twisty murder mysteries a year for more smutty tv.
- [88:02]
A
That's really generous of you, Rob.
- [88:04]
B
Thank you. I'm just here to do it. I'm here to broker trades. We're just trying to make deals. Joe. If you. We got an email from Alexis. If you could get one oral history on the making of a TV show or TV show episode. What show or episode would it be? I gotta say, I found this one difficult because a lot of these have been.
- [88:22]
A
I know, exactly. I couldn't come up with a good one. Did you come up with anything?
- [88:26]
B
I think the ones that I would focus on are more recent. So, like, getting the real inside scoop on this most recent season of White Lotus and who actually hates each other and why Severance beyond just the implied rumor. I mean, severance is kind of my next. My next one up. I think this is what you want is either cast that don't seem to get along or famously flawed broken productions, and ideally both. So, you know, maybe Severance is the pick might answer.
- [88:53]
A
The best answer I could come up with was because to your point, I'm like, I feel like I actually already know too much about so many of these things. But I was like, oh, Twin Peaks the Return. Except David lynch wouldn't want that. So I was like, I'm like of two minds because I'm just like, I want to know all the ins and outs of Twin Peaks the Return, but David lynch is just sort of like let the mystery be. Please don't, don't, don't do that. So I think Severance is a great answer. Severance, what's going on there?
- [89:29]
B
Seriously, what is going on? We've heard, we got a lot of.
- [89:31]
A
Time, so many whispers, rumors of various of who is. Who is the quote unquote problem on the set of Severance. And I, I've heard too many answers to ever be able to find figure out what the truth is.
- [89:42]
B
So you know, it's a whole circle of people all pointing at somebody else somehow. It, it really is a remarkable bit of like blame. Like everyone is just trying to shift out from under it at every given point in time. And I appreciate it, honestly. Joe, did you hear or see that they're doing theatrical re releases of Twin Peaks episode by episode, week by week? In 2026, I saw the Alamo Drafthouse is doing this. I saw some other theaters around the country are doing this. Seems like a pretty fucking sweet experience if you ask me.
- [90:14]
A
Should I move to LA so that we can do this in la?
- [90:18]
B
Well, you obviously should, should. You know my stance on this particular subject. Here's the thing, if you move to la, I will go watch Twin Peaks with you every week. We'll make it just like an annual ritual. Every Tuesday or whatever, we'll go watch.
- [90:29]
A
That sounds so fun. And then we could podcast about it. We don't have to, but we could make it content if we wanted to. Something to think about.
- [90:35]
B
You're all about the content, you know, just trying to churn things into work.
- [90:38]
A
I'm just trying to write off whatever we're going to pay to do.
- [90:42]
B
I want to say that that's very good. I want to end Joe with an email from Courtney in part because I don't have very good answers to this question and I think you are very well position to have them. Courtney also recently watched Lost for the first time and said that it changed the way that she watches tv. Now. What do you think seems to be Lost's impact on TV in hindsight? And what would you recommend to someone to watch post Lost, aside from just going on to the leftovers.
- [91:11]
A
So my answer to what you should watch after was pretty easy. I would recommend either the show Dark. Have we talked about Dark? Have you watched Dark?
- [91:19]
B
I haven't seen it, but we. I think we've chatted about it briefly. It's another one where I'm like, trying to know as little as possible on the. In the event I ever actually watch.
- [91:26]
A
Yeah. Yeah. So it's a twisty sci fi, poignantly emotional, right up our alley kind of show. But it's German.
- [91:35]
B
Are you just doing like the. The Netflix word cloud descriptions under the.
- [91:39]
A
Title, but make it German. But it's German, so, you know, I definitely recommend it. I. I think the fact that it is German language and I always advocate sub, not dub, but like, I think that has been a slight barrier for people. But I think if it were not in a different language, it would be one of the biggest shows that ever existed. But I kind of like that it's not. And I kind of like. It's like one of those sort of like, oh, you like Dark? You're a person of taste. And then Twin Peaks. I would say Twin Peaks, which inspired Lost. But if you've never seen it, you know, why not watch this show that sort of made Dam Lindelof into the TV creator that he is? So that's Twin Peaks impact on loss, Loss impact on TV in general. That's really interesting and hard to answer because I think it's like kind of vaporized into so many different places. You just hear so many different people who make TV now talk about their obsession with Lost and Buffy as well, because, like, they're of the age that, that they were either watching Buffy or, or then eventually Lost. And so, you know, we, we talked about it in Severance. I would talk about it as it pertains to White Lotus. I would talk about it as a per. Like it's just kind of atomized into all of television. For better and for worse. The for worse is the addiction to Mystery Box and you know, the, the carbon copies that came out, which we talked about, you know, all that sort of stuff like that. But I think the better is. I mean, I would say something like the cold open in this episode of Pluribus felt very Linda Lafi.
- [93:21]
B
Definitely.
- [93:22]
A
You know.
- [93:24]
B
I mean, it wasn't like a woman in a cave, but it kind of millions of years ago.
- [93:30]
A
At the same time time. So, you know, various, like big swings, I think is, is something that Lost really Encouraged off the back of the big swing that was peaks. Rob, I know that part of Courtney's question was also, if you had to pick either a donut or water ice flavor that would represent your personality or your year, what would it be? And why did you come up with anything for this, Rob?
- [93:57]
B
You know what? I'm not as well versed in the water ice flavors. I have been to Rita's before, but I'm a pretty basic when it comes to, like, any kind of flavored ice situation. So I feel like I'm a little. I'm a little more schooled in the donut arts ultimately.
- [94:09]
A
And we've talked about our very different feelings on donuts, but for sure.
- [94:14]
B
And leaning into that, like, I feel like I can't pick anything too bougie. It's gotta be a pretty practical donut, and yet a little flair, you know, a little dramatic. I think, honestly, my brain jumps to my actual favorite donut, which is the apple fritter.
- [94:28]
A
And is that, like, representing you, Rob, or is it representing your year?
- [94:33]
B
More representing me. Representing my year would be whichever donut gets inexplicably sick every couple weeks. That would be the donut that represents my diet.
- [94:42]
A
The most extremely light. In what way, Rob, are you an apple turnover?
- [94:48]
B
Yeah, apple fritter. I want to make it very clear. Do not put me with them, Joe. Do not put me on turnovers.
- [94:55]
A
What way are you an apple fritter?
- [94:58]
B
I think one look in the way that we are. All works in progress. Joe, the apple fritter, you just kind of drizzle into the fryer, and it coalesces into one solid thing somehow. I don't know how it happens. I can't explain it to you. I don't know how I become me. I just know that, you know, you drizzle me into the fryer a little bit, all of a sudden become one solid piece of fried dough in a way that is craggly, that contains multitudes, that's impossible to pin down, and yet, I would hope, accessible in a pinch off and enjoy kind of way.
- [95:28]
A
I think we figured out why pressy TV episodes are usually about an hour. Because I think an hour 42 into this, we get a little punchy. But that's one of my favorite things you've ever said.
- [95:39]
B
Oh, thank you. But don't think you're getting off the hook on this. Are you going water ice, or are you going donut bougie?
- [95:47]
A
Donut, obviously.
- [95:50]
B
Just don't tell me it has cereal on it. Don't don't tell me it's got, like, nowhere. Some fruity peppers.
- [95:54]
A
It belongs nowhere. It does not belong in ice cream. It doesn't belong anywhere. I don't vibe with. Put some cereal on it, Put a bird on it, put some cereal on it. It's my number one.
- [96:05]
B
It's a problem.
- [96:06]
A
It's my number one. Like, put a mustache on a cupcake, like, this is a hipster, like, move. I don't like it. Okay. Yeasted, filled, as I've talked about, is. Is my this to represent year yeast infilled, Deeply, deeply bittersweet chocolate. Like, really, really, really bitter and. But I love bittersweet chocolate. And I will just say that, like, that inside of it, because it has to be really, really dark and bitter because a donut is so sweet and so like, if you put like milk chocolate inside, that's just like too much sugar. But like, if you put, if you put just like something that is maybe on its own inedible, but you put it inside and that's sort of been my year. There's just been like this, like, strain of, like, I don't want that. But, like, at the end of the day, it goes well with the whole year and you come out at the end of the year with something like, actually quite wonderful. Even if there were parts of it. You're like, this is bad. This seems bad.
- [97:09]
B
Yeah.
- [97:10]
A
But at the end of the day, it's. It's good.
- [97:12]
B
So, yeah, I mean, it's got a clean finish. That really is the important part. You know, there is a balance in a way. I hope for a slightly less bitter in the bittersweet spectrum. 2026 for you, Joe. You know, like, we maybe following a year like this, we could do with a little cloy. We could do with some of that milk chocolate right about now. Let's just make it as easy as possible on all involved. Let's go super sweet in 2026.
- [97:33]
A
Super sweet. 2026, in which you and I go to watch Twin Peaks Return. A very easy peasy, easily digestible, sweet, sweet show in the theater in LA.
- [97:44]
B
Are shared home, theoretically hypothetical.
- [97:48]
A
The rumor has it. All right. Did we do it?
- [97:52]
B
I think we did it.
- [97:52]
A
Joe, Rob, thanks so much for going through the emails and pulling out these questions. You did a great job with that. Thanks everyone who wrote in all year long to looking the donated gmail.com what other emails did we use this year?
- [98:07]
B
Arsetimethepopegmail.com pineapplebombingmail.com DJ Grossanova gmail.com It's really been a banner year for the emails and really for the emailers. This has been. Joe, it has to be by far our best email year. The inbox has been popping off show after show after show.
- [98:25]
A
Pluribus bookends to the year were just some of your finest email works, folks, but White Lotus was really, really good to task. You guys did an extraordinary job and I just. Just like, I feel. I feel really lucky with our. Our listenership. You guys are, like, so smart, so dialed in. Genuinely pretty kind, which is nice. And. Yeah. And thank you like in. In terms of end of year. Thank you so much to Justin Sales for his incredible work on the speed all year. Just like, holding it down. Thanks to Donnie Beacham, who's on this episode, has been riding with us through Pluribus and a number of other things. Donnie, absolutely. Getting to know Donnie better this year has been, like, a real highlight for me. So thank you so much to Donnie. Thanks also to Kai Grady for his work on the feed this year. And thank you to you, Rob Mahoney. Just the best, Joe.
- [99:19]
B
Thank you.
- [99:20]
A
And come on. Yeah, I'll see you next year.
- [99:25]
B
See you, Twin Peaks.
- [99:25]
A
Joe. Sam.