‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 2: What Does Helena Want?

Summary

The Prestige TV Podcast Summary: ‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 2: What Does Helena Want?

Released on January 25, 2025

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Introduction

In this engaging episode of The Prestige TV Podcast, hosted by Joe House and Chris Ryan, the hosts delve deep into Season 2, Episode 2 of HBO's acclaimed series "Severance." Skipping over the introductory segments filled with advertisements, the focus remains firmly on unpacking the intricate layers of the episode, exploring character motivations, plot developments, and viewer theories.

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Episode Analysis

1. Pineapple Bobbing and Creative Engagement

Early in the discussion, Joe House and Chris Ryan highlight a humorous yet significant element introduced in the episode—the strategic use of a pineapple-themed email address for listener engagement.

• Joe House (03:29): "But to all our fetid moppets out there, we appreciate them."

• The hosts acknowledge feedback from listeners regarding the oversight of not establishing a "severance-specific" email initially, leading to the playful creation of pineapplebobbingmail.com. This creative nod not only serves as a branding mechanism but also ties into the episode’s thematic elements.

2. Character Focus: Helena

A substantial portion of the discussion revolves around Helena, her actions, and underlying motivations.

• Chris Ryan (07:05): "Are we in a parallel one? Is this kind of like slightly off-kilter? ...I love that it's hard to get a bearing on what even the physical reality of Severance is."

The ambiguity surrounding Helena's character—whether she is Heli or a different persona—raises questions about her true intentions and alignment with the corporate entity, Lumen.

Notable Quotes:

• Joe House (31:11): "Why is she out there alone allowed to have this interaction with him?"

• Chris Ryan (12:12): "You may have heard that she is alive. Now we finally get the actual follow up on the seconds after that proclamation." (12:12)

3. Plot Developments and Theories

The hosts explore various plot threads, including the mysterious "Cold Harbor" project and the significance of Mark’s involvement.

• Chris Ryan (17:05): "It's more mysterious and important though, than her grieving husband."

They discuss the possibility of Gemma’s consciousness being reconstructed and the ethical implications of Lumen’s practices.

Listener Theories:

• Abe Ron Verse suggests that Helena's cover story about alcohol consumption may be a façade hiding deeper issues related to her involvement with Lumen.

• Olive Wroten hypothesizes that Helena’s sense of entitlement manifests as a radicalizing force, pushing her towards manipulative capitalism.

4. Themes and Symbolism

The episode delves into the show's exploration of identity, mortality, and corporate control, drawing parallels with mythological narratives like Persephone and Orpheus and Eurydice.

• Joe House (34:33): "This is our new obsession. So Kai, put it on the soundboard, and we will be liberally using it..." (07:05)

The recurring motifs, such as retro-futurism and symbols like the Lenin-esque carving, enrich the narrative, adding layers of political and philosophical commentary.

5. Notable Scenes Discussed

One of the standout discussions revolves around the interaction between Devin and Mark at the diner, highlighting their contrasting approaches to grief and identity.

• Joe House (38:27): "As we're swirling around our sci fi and our quest for human emotion, two great tastes that taste great together..." (66:13)

They analyze Devin’s genuine approach versus Mark’s detached coping mechanisms, emphasizing the show's deep dive into human psychology.

6. Opening Credits and Symbolic Imagery

The hosts spend time dissecting the symbolism embedded in the season's opening credits, noting references like ouroboros of balloons and the significance of bearded babies as potential metaphors for cyclical control mechanisms within Lumen.

• Chris Ryan (45:07): "We've moved on." (46:40)

• Joe House (52:33): "Here's my question about that. If Audi Irving and Audi Burt were able to have some communication..." (52:24)

These symbols are posited to foreshadow future plot developments and thematic explorations, keeping viewers intrigued.

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Listener Engagement and Feedback

Throughout the episode, Joe and Chris incorporate listener emails and theories, fostering a community-driven analysis.

• Matt R. (74:40): "As for what I would sever, how about long haul flights, daily commutes..."

Such interactions not only deepen the discussion but also integrate fan perspectives into the analytical framework of the podcast.

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Conclusion

In wrapping up, Joe House and Chris Ryan express optimism about the show's direction, particularly appreciating the subtle unraveling of mysteries and character-driven narratives that "Severance" continues to promise. They encourage listeners to continue submitting their theories and remain engaged with upcoming episodes.

Chris Ryan (73:01): "I feel confident enough based on the rollout that they know how to parcel these things and they know how to modulate our expectations..." (73:37)

The episode stands out for its thorough exploration of complex themes, character dynamics, and symbolic storytelling, making it a must-listen for fans eager to delve deeper into the enigmatic world of "Severance."

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Notable Quotes with Timestamps:

• Joe House [03:35]: "Here's what I'll say we should consider heavily considered. And you can email us your requests at pineapplebobbingmail.com..."

• Chris Ryan [12:12]: "You may have heard that she is alive. Now we finally get the actual follow up..."

• Joe House [31:11]: "Why is she out there alone allowed to have this interaction with him?"

• Chris Ryan [45:07]: "We've moved on."

• Joe House [52:33]: "Here's my question about that. If Audi Irving and Audi Burt were able to have some communication..."

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For more detailed discussions and further insights into "Severance," subscribe to The Prestige TV Podcast on Spotify and join the conversation with fellow fans and analysts.

Transcript

[Bill Simmons]

This is Bill Simmons. I am thrilled to announce our newest YouTube channel. It's called Ringer Movies. If you're a fan of our movie coverage here at the Ringer, then you're in luck because every episode of the Rewatchable is in the big Picture now on YouTube.

[Chris Ryan]

Like Bill said, Ringer Movies will feature full episodes of my show, the Big Picture, the rewatchables, as well as special live episodes, deep dives into movie history and a bunch of other fun stuff featuring other movie loving Ringer personalities. Search ringer movies on YouTube and experience the joy Chris Ryan impersonating Wayne Jenkins on camera.

[Joe House]

This episode is brought to you by Coffee Mate. I love a good crossover, especially when it's with a show you love. This time the crossover isn't with another character, but with Coffee Mate. Coffee Mate has collaborated with HBO's the White Lotus to bring us two tropically inspired limited time only flavors, Pina colada and Thai iced coffee flavored creamers. And as a coffee fanatic, I can't wait to try them. All right, Thai iced coffee in my coffee. Pina colada in coffee. I am adventurous when it comes to new flavors, but this sounds truly different. I'm picturing something tropical and refreshing, like a beachside cocktail, but with a coffee twist. Definitely curious to see how it all comes together. Let's try it. Mm. The Thai iced coffee is amazing. It tastes like like an authentic Thai iced coffee with that, you know, the condensed milk sweetness to it. I was very skeptical about the pina colada, but it's surprisingly delicious. The coconut and pineapple notes make it feel like a vacation in a cup. Perfect for sipping while watching the latest episode of HBO's original series, the White Lotus Coffee Mates. The White Lotus flavors are only available for a limited time, so try them now and stream HBO's original series on.

[Bill Simmons]

This episode is brought to you by Marvel Television's Born Again. Charlie Cox returns as vigilante lawyer Matt Murdock and Vincent D'Onofrio as former mob boss Wilson Fisk. The darker side of Matt Murdock is revealed when he gains a new perspective on his role as the Daredevil and faces an internal struggle between justice and revenge. The devil's work is never done. Don't miss the two episode premiere of Daredevil Born Again on March 4th. Only on Disney.

[Joe House]

They convinced you to stay.

[Chris Ryan]

Was a pineapple involved?

[Joe House]

Hello, welcome back to the Prestige TV podcast feed. I'm Twitter Robinson. Joining me today. It is my favorite fetid moppet, Rob Mahoney. Hey Rob.

[Chris Ryan]

How are you doing, Joe? I'm doing great. Thank you as always for having me. Thank you to the many people who contacted us to say that we blew it by not waiting to establish a severance specific email address. As fetidmoppitmail.com it was perhaps an oversight on our part. I'm not mad about where we ended up with pineapplebobbingmail.com which is the official severance email address. Send us all of your theories and thoughts. But to all our fetid moppets out there, I appreciate them.

[Joe House]

I. Kai had messaged me, he was like, I actually think we really crushed it with pineapple bobbing. And I was like, are pineapples heavily involved in episode two? And lo and behold, they are. So I'm feeling good about pineapple bobbing. I think you did. I think you knocked it out of the park there. So pineapple [e-mail].

[Chris Ryan]

Do you, by the way, Joe, have any revised thoughts on whether you could successfully bob a pineapple?

[Joe House]

I really feel like I ran this by a lot of people and they're all on team me that pineapple bobbing is something one could do.

[Chris Ryan]

You need. What that tells me is you need to reconsider who you have in your life. These are people whose judgment you cannot trust.

[Joe House]

Here's what I'll say we should consider heavily considered. And you can email us your requests at pineapplebobbingmail.com and or pressy [e-mail] and or chamomile cookies do [e-mail] canonically. If you want us to end this season with a pineapple Bobby competition, we probably won't do it, but we might. So you could email us and ask for it. You just think about it. Listen. Thrilled to be here. Talk to you about severance season two, episode two. That is what has brought us here today. Goodbye, Mrs. Selvig. It's directed by Sam Donovan, written by Mohammed El Masri. Before we get into everything, I do want to mention that you and I are wrapping up our coverage of the agency. As promised, guys, as promised, we do not leave abandoned things in the middle. So we will be wrapping up the agency with sort of little quick look at the season and the finale and a potential season two and all of that. We'll be checking back in with the Pit. You guys are loving the Pit, according to the emails we're getting. So we'll be back with some pit takes in the future. I also want to shout out that Sean fantasy. And I did an episode in this feed about the Twin Peaks pilot that you can check out just sort of in honor of David lynch and his TV legacy. So that's all that's happening on this feed. We have a lot to talk about. So much talk about a lot of theories.

[Chris Ryan]

Certainly do.

[Joe House]

Facts. A lot of. A lot happened in this episode. Before we do, I want to share with our listeners something that has delighted you, has delighted me, and has delighted Kai. We're going to talk about it now, and then it may come again up again later. But I just want to let you all know that as soon as we stopped recording last week, we discovered an interview that Billy Bush did.

[Chris Ryan]

No, no, no. I don't think there's a we involved. Joe, you surface this interview. I want to give you appropriate credit.

[Joe House]

Okay. I discovered an interview that because we were asking ourselves, sort of, have we seen Christopher Walken do Severin season two promo? So I started googling Christopher Walken interviews. And yet, lo and behold, he has. I found this Billy Bush interview. Where. Where our. Our nation's finest interviewer, Billy Bush, is talking to Christopher Walken, and he wants to talk to him about his character, Bert and John Turturro's character, Irving. Burt and Irving, a. A romantic pairing that happened in season one. Kai, will you play a little clip of how this went?

[Chris Ryan]

Everybody's talking about birthing. Everybody's talking about Burvy. I have spent the last several hours just saying this aloud to myself in my apartment. And I have to tell you, Joe, what gets me is not the sheer enthusiasm of Billy Bush on the first delivery, it's the second. Everybody is talking about Burvin, burving the.

[Joe House]

Portmanteau romantic coupling name of Burton Irving that nobody but Billy Bush has ever said.

[Chris Ryan]

Not a single person.

[Joe House]

Nobody's talking about Burvin. But this is our new favorite clip that we've ever seen in our lives. With love and apologies to consume the rangoon. This is our new obsession. So Kai, put it on the soundboard, and we will be liberally using it, I think, in our coverage of Severin season two.

[Chris Ryan]

Well, I'm delighted to say after episode two, where we do get our first actual birthing of the season.

[Joe House]

It's true. So do yourself a solid. If you haven't watched this interview, you will also. I also want you to see the hand gestures that are involved. It's a lot. It's a whole package. And also Christopher Walken's reaction to this. Please, would you call it a reaction? He sure is there. On camera when it happens. So he is.

[Chris Ryan]

His corporeal form is there. Where is Christopher Walken? I could not tell you. Has Billy Bush seen a single second of Severance? I can assure you he has not.

[Joe House]

I promise you with my heart and soul, he is not. So anyway, please check that out. We will be burving aplenty this season on Severance. And then I want to hit some fun facts that we got sort of before we get into this episode. Specifically, in reaction to episode one, we got an email from a few people, but our listener Rachel wrote in to point out that in episode one in the Lumen video, they said that they had operations in 205 countries.

[Chris Ryan]

No, no, I think they said over 300.

[Joe House]

300, yeah. The United Nation only recognizes 195 countries and there's only 205 sovereign countries in. In the world as of right now. So just to point out, in this dystopian future where we've got like boxy 70s sedans in the parking lot, but also high tech brain splitting technology, there are more countries than we have on our planet. Do you think that will come back into play or is that just like a fun little sci fi twist to put in there?

[Chris Ryan]

I think it will come back into play in that effect. You know, you said like in this sci fi future, I think we're still trying to figure out where and when and how this story takes place. To begin with, we know that the actual Lumen HQ is in a place or at least a state in the United States that doesn't actually exist in our reality. And so are we in a parallel one? Is this kind of like slightly off kilter? Is it some like, sleight of hand otherwise? In a very mystery laden show, I don't know what's going on or when it's going on, but I will say this episode, overall, kind of my ears perked up or my eyes opened wider, I guess is more accurate about the level of analog technology as you alluded to with the 70s cars. That's not just happening in the office, right? Like when. When Helena records her apology video. Very like low tech. Not exactly 4K glossy stuff that you would find from like a modern corporate setting. And so I'm. I really have no idea where or when we are. And I. I love that it's hard to get a bearing on what even the physical reality of Severance is.

[Joe House]

Retro futurism, I believe is the term. And it's one of my favorite things that occurs. Our listener, Anna Grace M. I just Put the last initial in there for a bit of whimsy. Pointed out that. And we might have talked about this in season one, but pointed out that the giant carving of Kier that's in the lobby that we watch Dylan walk across in front of in in this episode, I believe looks nearly identical to a famous carving of Lenin in the height of the ussr. So, you know, the Lenin esque vibes are here and they're rancid. And I just. Anna Grace included an image of it and it is like it's a dead ringer. So that's just something, you know, to keep in our minds and our hearts as we think about Cure. Egan sounds like a chill guy.

[Chris Ryan]

Yeah, Let him guide our hand on this pod today.

[Joe House]

It'll be fine. Okay, I want to start by asking sort of your big picture, larger thoughts on the episode and this concept of doing an innie entirely innie episode for episode one and then an outie episode for episode two. This is something that Dan Erickson said, like he thought about a lot in season one. He really wanted to do an innie centric episode and an outie centric episode. How do you feel like it works as like a back to back? How do you feel like it works in terms of kicking off a new season?

[Chris Ryan]

I really liked it. I think overall quality kind of two piece episode here and in particular the way that that structure lets the show let the air out of some of the big questions that we've been trying to figure out while also building up the tension in other ones. There's always a really deft balancing act that's happening on severance with those things and you rarely get something answered without creating other problems or other complications or creating other questions and theories that result of it. And I think structuring it as innies and outies is a really sensible way to go about doing that and to stave off some of the things that people have been waiting three years for.

[Joe House]

Right.

[Chris Ryan]

Like you may have heard that she is alive. Now we finally get the actual follow up on the seconds after that proclamation. And I think how quickly plausibly deniable it is for someone who identified his dead wife's body after a car wreck and frankly just does not want to confront the idea that any version of her could still be alive.

[Joe House]

I feel like rickon is like 100% baby. Devin's like 100% Gemma. Or maybe 95.

[Chris Ryan]

Yeah. Pretty high.

[Joe House]

Something like that. And then Mark, I actually, I mean, I think he's like 50%, but doesn't want to even admit that he's that high on it.

[Chris Ryan]

You know, you think, you think he's severed. On the issue of whether Gemma is alive, perhaps mayhap.

[Joe House]

I also really like this episode and I like the point you make about the fact that they set up a bunch of questions in episode one and they answered them fairly, how much time has passed, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera. How do they get everyone back in? Why do they want Mark back in there? All that stuff is answered for us inside of this episode. So we get that sort of feeling of having questions answered when really there are only questions we've been asking for the last week.

[Chris Ryan]

The illusion of progress, Joe, it's very important. We need to see our little macro data percentage tick up ever so slightly.

[Joe House]

I've been worried and so sort of unduly. Why worry in advance? But like, you know, seeing the. The feverish speculation and theorizing and Reddit boarding and everything that's happening around this season already, I'm just like, is there any chance that severance ends in a way that satisfies people? Because I've never once seen a mystery box that is this chewed over, stick the landing in the way that pleased people. And it's not. I mean, they stick the landing in a way that pleases me often. Like, I love the ending of Lost, but famously, a lot of people don't. So I know that the folks making the show are aware of the history of mystery box shodom and sort of the legacy and the pitfalls. And I think they are cleverly doing things like this, like feeding us little answers while trying to keep some of the larger mysteries a mystery. Or are they even keeping these larger mysteries a mystery as we can talk about next? Because I want to start with our latest theories on the point of Severin slash the mdr. We talked about this at the end of last week's episode. This idea of the flash of Ms. Casey that we see or Gemma that we see. At the end of the episode, we were talking about cloning or, you know, if. If she was brain dead, sort of digitally, digitally resurrecting someone. When we talk about Helena's creepy father, the fetid moppet Sayer himself.

[Chris Ryan]

Oh my God.

[Joe House]

And the thing he said last season about my revolving. We were talking about the immortality of creepy rich people and sort of have they figured out a way to forever preserve or somehow resurrect themselves? I want to start, I want to ask you your current theories, if anything in this episode has sort of Changed your thoughts or. Or set you in a new direction. But I want to start with another clip. I was listening to the official podcast, which is hosted by Ben Stiller and Adam Scott. Sort of a mixed bag experience for me. They have a lot of workplace ads on this podcast that I have some questions about.

[Chris Ryan]

Wow.

[Joe House]

Slightly dystopian. But they had, they had. They've had some sort of celebrity guests on. In their rehash of season one, and that wasn't all that interesting to me. But they had Dan Erickson, who is the creator and the writer on the show, on the episode two podcast, and that was much more interesting to me. He talked a lot about Dylan and Devin, and I want to talk about them a bit later. So I would say for me, anytime I see that Dan Erickson's going to be on, that's going to be sort of very interesting to me. But this is Ben Stiller and Adam Scott going through the new opening credits that we get inside of this episode. And here's them talking about something we see at the very end of the opening credits. Kai, will you please play this clip?

[Bill Simmons]

The ending of the opening credits sequence is super interesting too.

[Chris Ryan]

Yes. When you see, like a little baby.

[Joe House]

Kir kind of crawling by.

[Chris Ryan]

Yes. Yeah, interesting. All right. See, I just thought it was a normal run of the mill bearded baby.

[Joe House]

Oh, you love a bearded baby, Rob.

[Chris Ryan]

Could have been anybody. Could have been anybody's bearded baby.

[Joe House]

Yeah. This is Kir. This is a baby Kier. So. Which I had noted, but now I would note with an underline and a bolding and an exclamation mark, given the saucy little coy way that Adam Scott and Ben Stiller discussed it on the podcast.

[Chris Ryan]

Yes.

[Joe House]

So in terms of, like, we are trying to clone or resurrect Keir Egin.

[Chris Ryan]

At least create some kind of new vessel for him.

[Joe House]

Yes. But also with his consciousness, you know, whether or not that's implanting his consciousness in, you know, Helena's father or in Helena herself or something like that.

[Chris Ryan]

It's more of a, like the island scenario. You know, we're just harvesting here.

[Joe House]

We're harvesting and is then Gemma, who is a.k.a. cold Harbor. And we find out inside of this episode when they say we need Mark to come back down into the severed floor to finish Cold Harbor. That's what they say. They need Mark specifically. They don't give a shit, really, about Dylan.

[Chris Ryan]

No, they do not, Irving.

[Joe House]

They need Mark to finish Cold Harbor. And Cold harbor is the code name we saw on the Gemma screen at the end of episode one. So this is something we talked about last week, this idea that, like Mark specifically because he knows Gemma better than anyone else. If they're trying to recreate the personality of someone who has passed, who better to do it through the obscure process of macro data refinement, which I do not understand.

[Chris Ryan]

It's mysterious and important though, than her grieving husband.

[Joe House]

Yeah. What do you. What do you. What. What are all the pieces doing inside of your brain right now?

[Chris Ryan]

I mean, a lot, I think clearly, as you say, we have final official confirmation out of the character's mouths that Mark specifically is important in exactly the way you described. That's good clarity to have. And I think we see that displayed in the lengths that the company is willing to go to try to bring him back.

[Joe House]

Where 20% raise.

[Chris Ryan]

20. I mean, look, it's not nothing. Wellness checks. We'll take it.

[Joe House]

A pineapple. A pineapple basket.

[Chris Ryan]

A juicy pineapple. Look like maybe some passion. Maybe. I don't. I couldn't get a glimpse of all the fruit. You think there's a mango in there?

[Joe House]

I do.

[Chris Ryan]

I hope it was a champagne mango. Like, let's pull out all the stops if we're gonna do this thing.

[Joe House]

Oh, what's a champagne mango?

[Chris Ryan]

Oh, we'll get you caught up, Joe. The mango. The world of mango is wide and luxurious.

[Joe House]

I don't know anything about special mangoes.

[Chris Ryan]

Absolutely delightful fruit. Yeah. So it's nice to have that. I am worried about what that could mean overall in terms of the plot, but I am very curious as to what the process entails of getting these bodies ready to be cloned. Recreated consciousness is reconstructed. How that process of, say, Gemma dying in a car crash or coming near enough to death, maybe she wasn't fully brain dead or whatever had happened that would allow her to participate in this process in such a one sided way as an innie Only. How does that relate to Jame Egan and his seeming pursuit of revolving. His attempt at revolving in the future, which we can assume to be some means of prolonging his life or extending his life, whether through another body of his, a body of Helena's. Whatever it ends up being like. Those are two very distinct situations. And I'm trying to figure out how. Why the recreation of consciousness would be instructive or helpful in the case of basically transporting a consciousness from one body to the other. Perhaps. But maybe that's the wrong way to think about it.

[Joe House]

If. If Gemma's a case study, if the ultimate goal is resurrect or you know, reconstruct Keir Egan and Gemma is a case study.

[Chris Ryan]

Wait, do you think the goal is to resurrect Kier Egan or to prolong current CEO Jame Egan's life?

[Joe House]

I think it's to resurrect Kier Egan, but all of them, I think it's to make the Egans immortal.

[Chris Ryan]

Yes.

[Joe House]

So, you know, Jamie Egan, who is quite elderly, you know, like, give him a new, fresh, new young body if you want. That's the sort of, like, get out, you want hot Jamiegan get out scenario sort of thing. Right. And then bring back someone you've lost. That's a sort of Westworld experience. This idea that Gemma's body. When Devin and Mark are in the diner and they're talking and he is having a negative reaction to Devin saying, like, but if we could just be short. And he's like, fuck you, that's my wife. It's not. It's not your wife, like, back off. And he says, the way that he phrases it, it's slightly ambiguous, but he's talking about, like, hey, if Rickon died and you had to, like, and his body was burned, I would feel like, maybe bad for you, but I personally.

[Chris Ryan]

Would not be affected if Rickon died. To quote Mark, the way he says.

[Joe House]

Body burned, the question is, when he ID the body, was that a burned body? And in that case, if it was a heavily burned body, was that a body swap? Was it a different body? And the other question I have that I've been thinking about in terms of, like, how would they know to sort of pick Gemma, someone who was maybe, like, borderline brain dead or something like that, as a subject, and Mark be able to recruit Mark as like, the refiner that they need two things. They need someone who's been lost but is still maybe somehow recoverable, and the person who lost them being willing to come down to the severance floor doesn't seem, you know, given. Given what Milchick says in this episode, and we'll get into that, about what Mark described, how Mark described his grief. Yeah, he's. He's ripe for recruitment into severance right inside of his grief. But I've been thinking about this thing that we Learned in season one, which is that Dr. Agabi, who is the person who reintegrates Petey in season one, she worked at the same university as Mark, and Gemma, like, wasn't necessarily best friends with them, but had that pre severance connective tissue to them. Not that this is a huge town necessarily, but, like, that's of note. Like, is she. Was she tracking this? Was she saying, like, oh, hey, this thing happened to, you know, someone who works at my university, maybe we should go after the husband or something like that, you know?

[Chris Ryan]

Well, I mean, to drill down on it too. I think the timing of all that could suggest something even more nefarious, which is that Gemma and Mark were targeted as candidates. Gemma was killed, or at least taken away for the purposes of creating this severed link. And then Mark was slowly, like, watched and guided and influenced and courted into becoming a separate employee. Because even if, say, hypothetically, Gemma dies in a car crash, or doesn't die in a car crash, Lumen somehow swoops in and grabs this random woman's body with at that point, no real reason to think that Mark would want to sever himself, to then work on the floor, to then participate in Cold Harbor. Like, there's only almost like too many things that would need to happen, too many dominoes, to think that it would be that accidental path and not Lumen set up Gemma to either die or disappear.

[Joe House]

You make a great point. Another thing I want to bring up. We get a close up on the license plate on Milchick's bike, which is similar to the license plate on the back of Mark's car that we saw in season one.

[Chris Ryan]

Not surprising that Milchick is fully leathered up.

[Joe House]

Leather daddy. Leather daddy Milchick. Some character beats just track, I gotta say. So his leather looks like quite like. It's like kind of squeaky and like shiny and new. Oh, and I want to shout out Irving's leather jacket, which sounds much more like I've actually worn this jacket that.

[Chris Ryan]

Might be his dad's jacket. I mean, that's a. That's a vintage.

[Joe House]

It is a great genuine article. But the license plate says Remedium honibus, which is Latin for cure for men. So cure for men as a sort of cure slogan, is the cure for men like the cure for death? Like we've cured mortality, the idea of mortality? Or is it closer to the fact that like, they got their start, Lumen got their start doing like salves, medicated salves and stuff like that. So we cure men sort of more literally. Just something to track. I think it's other way. I think some ominous Latin, isn't it always? And all of this is much more compelling to me than, you know, a bunch of our. Our listeners, like, very sweetly wrote in after my completely incoherent Civil War ramblings.

[Chris Ryan]

Disagree.

[Joe House]

Last episode where I mentioned that the Company was founded the same year that the Civil War ended. We have seen Kyrrigan and sort of like Civil War regalia in that creepy painting that we saw in last week's episode. And so a few of our listeners wrote in with this idea of like, what if the idea of severance is an idea of sort of tech enhanced new slavery. Like slavery is ended by the Civil War, but we can newly enslave people with this tech. And the kernel of the idea comes from a, you know, he's not wearing blues, he's wearing grays. Keir Egan, you know, after the Civil War. So any thoughts on that?

[Chris Ryan]

I hope it doesn't get that explicit. Yeah, I have some apprehensions about that same. I think what Zeverens does very well overall, regardless of how explicit that gets, is the subtler ways that people are sort of nudged into control. Sometimes literally all it takes is a pineapple to bring somebody back to a job they don't want to be doing. And so slavery overtly, capital S. Slavery is not something I necessarily want severance diving into, but the ideas of the ways in which we are controlled and manipulated to work at the expense of our own lives and for the causes of other, in this case, very rich people who seemingly just want to be immortal that I can get behind.

[Joe House]

I agree. I would prefer to keep it metaphorical than literal, but I thought the emails we got were really thoughtful and I appreciated everyone who wrote them very much. So as we think about, like the idea of bringing Gemma back from the dead some way or another, or dead question mark. One way or another, I want to zero in on this quote from Milchick as he's talk. As he's trying to convince Mark to. He's trying to manipulate Mark back into the severance floor.

[Chris Ryan]

Right. This is a good sell.

[Joe House]

And reminding him of, of the, you know, the grief that he found himself in. In a very Ms. Casey esque saying, like, your innie is brave. Your innie has found love.

[Chris Ryan]

Your innie has very stylish shoes.

[Joe House]

Yeah, your innie would be. You would be killing your innie if you never go back in. He did this brave thing and you would be snuffing out his life if you don't go back in. And then he says the solace that he has found down there will make its way back to you. It just takes time. I hope you'll give us that time, Mr. Scout. So couple possibilities here. One is that more sort of severance's therapy, like if your innie is able to find peace and Happiness and love. That healing will sort of ooze its way into your larger brain space. As you can tell, I have not been studying any more neuroscience since last week.

[Chris Ryan]

You sound very precise to me, Joe. You could have fooled me.

[Joe House]

Does therapy ooze okay, that. That you. That your. Your healed innie will sort of heal your outie eventually?

[Chris Ryan]

Sort of any piece, as I like.

[Joe House]

To think of it, worky piece, but then. Or is it more literal? We, the. The solace that he has found down there will make his way back to you. It just takes time. I hope you'll give us that time, Mr. Scout. We will return your dead wife to you. Do you have any thoughts or feelings about that as a possibility?

[Chris Ryan]

I see it a lot more as spin and as control.

[Joe House]

I mean, obviously, yes.

[Chris Ryan]

And these first two episodes are just laden with the PR push at lumen internally and externally, right? They're trying to convince Mark. They're trying to convince the returned macro dats of all the good they've supposedly done in the world by busting out the first time. And there was something in this episode about hearing Helena in the outside world just use the words innies and outies that really crystallize, like, how that cutesy language itself is such a PR stunt and is a way to, like, soften the edges of something that's really gross and fucked up. Like, we've heard Milchick use that plenty of times. We've heard everyone within the world of the Office refer to indies and outies, but there's something about, like, craven CEO type overlords referring to it in those terms that just feels a little bit grosser and that feels, you know, everything about the COVID story that she creates about why she was on stage, you know, spilling her guts about the lives of the inner lives of Ennis. I guess there's so much that needs so much damage that needs to be controlled, as Cobell lays out very articulately in this episode. And I feel like Milchik, as much as anybody, he is on that sort of mission. He is the emissary of controlling the narrative and the mission, including whatever it takes. Whatever you have to tell Mark to get back in the office is what he has to do.

[Joe House]

Whatever kind of mango you need to procure.

[Chris Ryan]

I know, and let me tell you, those things are not cheap. They're not cheap.

[Joe House]

I'm, like, gonna go on the hunt for a champagne mango now. I don't know that I've ever had one. And now it's all I want, even though I don't know what it is. Okay, let's talk about Helena. You talked about Helena and her cover story. I want to shout out. I don't know that I agree with this theory, but we did get an email from a listener who just goes by albino verse. So shout out the albino verse. Rob and I, as extremely white people can relate, but like the. This person underlined a couple lines from the season one finale that I think. So Helena's cover story is that she had too much to drink combined with a non lumen medication.

[Chris Ryan]

Got turned up on non lumen medications.

[Joe House]

I don't know who this video is for. It can't be for wide release. I think it has to just be for the board because if it's for wide release, then, you know, I feel like Dylan and Irving, like I don't think Dylan and Irving and whatever should have to see this. Right. So who is the video for? Do you think doesn't.

[Chris Ryan]

I would think the board would know what happened. I would think the board knows about.

[Joe House]

Like the overtime protocol investors, then whoever's at the party. Yeah, it's not just the board at the party. Right. Like the senators for the friends and allies. Yes, it was.

[Chris Ryan]

It's for them. But not necessarily internal communication.

[Joe House]

But these are the lines that this listener underlined in the season one finale when she's about to go on stage. Natalie, the completely creepy PR person.

[Chris Ryan]

I love Natalie. I gotta say, great character saying that.

[Joe House]

Helena can only have one drink before going on stage. I'm going to quote the email then to explain away why she, Helena, is acting differently to her dad. She says something to the effect of she's not feeling well. Her dad doesn't react to her as if she's sick. He reacts as if it's something they've dealt with before. Will you be all right for the speech? He asks. This all implies to me that Helena is some kind of alcoholic. I'm not sure I agree with this albaniverse, I gotta say. And I also think that an important context for that bathroom scene between Helena and her father is that she sort of reaches for the bruises on her necks. This idea of like, he says, I hate what your innie did to you. Right. So this idea that like tried to hang herself, like that's what happened. So that's like something she's recovering from. But I did think it was interesting that we got that email before we got this video of Helena saying I had too much to drink combined with non limit medication. So just as perhaps we should be tracking Mark Scout's alcohol consumption. Why not? Why not keep a weather eye on Helena's alcohol consumption?

[Chris Ryan]

Yes. And I think. I think the presence, too, of Drummond, who's the sort of, like, big, burly Lumen employee of mysterious origin and purpose lurking on the edges of the frame of this episode, are kind of illuminating in that way.

[Joe House]

Like a hammer. Yeah.

[Chris Ryan]

The first couple of times you see him, it feels like, okay, maybe he's Lumen's security. Maybe he's Helena's personal security or, like, you know, like, body like bagman kind of situation. Yeah. But after watching this episode and seeing what he engages in, and in particular, the way he speaks up about what he considers to be a problem or not makes it feel much more like he is there to control her or to keep her in line or to watch her make sure she's walking some very narrow path.

[Joe House]

It's. I think their power dynamic is murky at best, and I think that that is worth watching. Also worth watching his Frolic tattoo on his hand.

[Chris Ryan]

I didn't even. I didn't even catch it.

[Joe House]

Yeah, it says, like, when he's in the diner eavesdropping on Devin and Mark, you see his hand holding a coffee cup, and it says Frolic sort of in the space between his thumb and his forefinger. And I'm curious if other Lumen employees have other of these four temperaments, the tempers, you know, tattooed on them on the nature of heli versus Helena, which we will talk about right now. But our listener Olive wrote in which I think, with a. I think a really good point, this idea of the any personality versus the outtie personality. Learning much more about Helena as we do in this episode, getting to spend more time with her as we do in this episode. And Britt Lauer just being, like, incredible, fucking crushing it. So good. This is hers is my favorite in the outy split. Like, Adam Scott did a great job.

[Chris Ryan]

Yeah.

[Joe House]

Turturro is a legend, obviously, but she.

[Chris Ryan]

Has kind of the most fun contrast in a lot of ways, I think. So, again, there's a wide range with Mark and with what Adam Scott's delivering, but I think this one, to your point, is more fun and engaging and is still so mysterious on the outside that we're trying to figure out what she's up to and what's going on in her head.

[Joe House]

The thing that Olive, our listener Olive Wroten say, maybe Helle's sense of entitlement, which manifests in evil capitalism in her Audi, is what makes her any such a radicalizing Force. So we're born with, develop certain characteristics, but how they manifest depend on the world you live in and your position in it. So this idea. End quote from Olive. So this idea that. That Helena has always had things her way is the one who sort of like most chafes against. And that's obviously not true. She is controlled by her father, by these other things or whatever.

[Chris Ryan]

But, like, I think we have more reason to think than ever that maybe she doesn't want to be part of any of this at all.

[Joe House]

Hundred percent. One hundred percent. I think it's. So let's talk about the rewatch of the Kiss, shall we?

[Chris Ryan]

Just on loop. Just being a little freaky.

[Joe House]

What are the angles? What angles can I look at?

[Chris Ryan]

Can I zoom in? Can I Slow mo. What do we got? Enhance that. Enhance that.

[Joe House]

Okay, so the picture that that paints for us is if we go back to episode one and think about our personal theory that we are watching Helena and not Heli.

[Chris Ryan]

Yeah.

[Joe House]

Which is not confirmed necessarily by this episode. People seem to really enjoy debating this. Yeah, it is not confirmed necessarily by this episode. But we should mention that when everyone goes down in the elevator, Helena's journey down at the end of the episode, you know, Irving goes back to work, Dylan goes back to work. Her elevator doesn't ding the way that theirs does. And the ding has been sort of our auditory cue for severance. So that's just that. I'm not saying it is 100% confirmation, but it is a thing that happens in this episode. But let's play this out. Let's say that Helena is someone who not only needs to go down because they need to pretend that Heli is there so that Mark will clear the Cold harbor case, which is something that they need for their corporate progress into their evil deeds. Great.

[Chris Ryan]

But also, I mean, end of quarter's coming up, Joe. We gotta hit those marks.

[Joe House]

But also, is Helena someone who has been affection and touch starved in her life? So that when we track her down, when we rewatch episode one and watch her reaction to Mark hugging her and how uncomfortable she looks, is that discomfort not just I'm Helena, not Heli, and I feel weird about this, but also, I've not been embraced this warmly in my life, and I am covetous of this thing that my innie got to experience? Is that your reading of a possible reading of what we're watching here?

[Chris Ryan]

Yes, that's where I am right now. Is that. Yes. The version we're seeing on the severed floor? Is Helena undercover, the reason she Is undercover, though I think to me was clarified somewhat by this episode, but maybe I've been led astray. I'm operating under the assumption that she has been ordered to go back to the severed floor as severed Heli. Yes, be Heli as normal. Return to exactly what you were doing. Severed in and out. And she has taken it upon herself as the affection deprived person that you describe who wants a little bit of that sweet, sweet Mark action to just go back and assume Heli's spot. And that's a great place to be. Cause not only are we getting that dual debate, but then you get this situation with Mark S where not only is he going from unknowingly interacting with a ghost clone of his maybe dead wife, but now he is unknowingly interacting with an Audi imposter of his work crush. This is juicy stuff. This is really good dramatic tension.

[Joe House]

Yeah. Someone was objecting to my use of like, love quadrangle. They're like, you're. You're not accounting for all the members. And I'm like, yeah, we're in like a love polyhule here. I think all centered around some version of Mark. But what that turns this into, I think more interestingly is not. Is that heli, which is sort of the surface Reddit detective question you can ask yourself. But like, yes, why is Heli there? And to your point, I do think it's a corporate mandate, but I also. But why is Helena interested? What is her ultimate agenda? Is it to serve the corporation or is it to go on this sort of emotional awakening, perhaps? And like, is it a reconcilia? One comment I saw on Reddit that I loved, I'm so sorry I didn't write the user's name down. Was like, not Helena going to steal Helly's man.

[Chris Ryan]

Straight up, though that is.

[Joe House]

What'S happening when she says to Mark in episode one, we don't owe our Annie's fucking anything, including staying away from their man. I don't know. And I think a question people are asking after episode one is if that's Helena, why does she seem so sort of warmed to or slightly flirtatious with Mark or curious about Gemma or all this other stuff? And I think this episode answers that she's curious. She might want to smooch him. Like, she's like, are we smooching right away? Do we need to build back up to that?

[Chris Ryan]

What's the vibe here?

[Joe House]

What are we doing? I'm willing to do it. So.

[Chris Ryan]

And we should say like flirtatious and curious. In a very distinctly different way from Helly. Right. The questions that she's asking, the framing, like we talked about the body language and the hug last week, but the way she talks and the thoughts she has and the ideas that she wants to know more information about are not. That's not the way Helly communicates.

[Joe House]

I don't know if we're going to get a happy ending for anyone here, but I do see a potential future where Mark has to choose between a sort of version of Gemma, a version of Ms. Casey, which is trying to hold on to the past.

[Chris Ryan]

Yeah.

[Joe House]

Even if she's not like a complete reality. Whole version. A shadow version of his dead wife, or a future with, you know, this woman that he's met. And this idea of, like, I don't know, I think. I think fundamentally what severance has on his mind, which most of these kinds of shows have on their mind, is like, what does it mean to be a human? What does it mean? What does mortality mean? Like, things matter because they end inside of this episode. Mark, in a really joking, once again, like, sibling shorthand that I love. When Devin's like, what's my name? And he says Persephone. It seems like a fun inside sibling joke. But we have to go to Greek Mythology corner, do we not?

[Chris Ryan]

We certainly do.

[Joe House]

Persephone, Queen of the dead, obviously. And Persephone, a figure in the story of Orvis and Eurydice, which was. If people have not seen Hadestown or read Orpheus and Eurydice recently, this is a story of Orpheus, whose wife, Eurydice dies. She goes in the underground. He is so grief stricken that he follows her down into the underground and makes a deal with Hades, King of the dead, and his lovely wife Persephone, that he can have his wife back if he walks out of the underworld and doesn't look back to make sure that she's following him and he can't do it. And he looks back because he grows uncertain and he loses her and she goes back down to the world of the under. And then things do not go well for Orpheus after that. But, you know, this is certainly something that's been on people's mind because the severance floor is so clearly a sort of like hell underground kind of idea. And certainly the image of Ms. Casey at the end of season one down that hallway with the elevator going further down behind her is like very Eurydice coded. Is this interesting to you as a central idea of the show, of this idea of, like, I don't know, love Connection, mortality. Are you interested in human emotion, Rob? How do you feel? You know what?

[Chris Ryan]

It turns out that I am okay. And in particular, not just the Persephone element of this. And I agree with you on all of the, like, the imagery you're describing, the themes that the show has set up. All of that is there. There is also, in both of those cases, but I would say especially Ms. Casey and Gemma, a real, like, ship of Theseus thing happening here of, like, if you can recreate a loved one in the aggregate and recreate their consciousness and put it in a new body, is that still the person you love? And on the other side of that, if you fell in love with Heliar in the first place, but she is swapped out and you kind of continue to fall in love with someone who is not exactly her, but kind of like her. What level of artifice is real? What level of artifice is acceptable? And Theseus is also kind of Persephone adjacent, mythologically speaking. So I think there's ways in which all of this stuff marries together really nicely. And I agree with you that it feels like we have to be headed in that way. I don't know if it's gonna be as literal as he has to choose between, like, the Innie or the Audi or the, like, you know, different spaces in different worlds. But these two women in his life clearly represent different things and different constructions in different versions of himself. And I. I have no idea what he'll pick, but I love that setup.

[Joe House]

I have a hope for reintegration as a concept seeded in season one. Like, maybe that's too hopeful that, like, both Mark and the Heli. Helena consciousness can reintegrate and then we can just, like, all live happily ever after. But it is worth noting in our sort of. And it's just asking for it over analysis of the new opening credits, that there is an image of Helly and Gemma sort of, like, flashing back and forth down that hallway. So that is definitely an important.

[Chris Ryan]

Other things that were in that opening credits, not just the Cure baby, but lots of weird babies in addition to Mark turning into a goat in a way that makes. I mean, it feels like we're pointing to. The goats are sort of the animal test subjects, perhaps of some of whatever cloning stuff is happening. And in effect, the humans have now replaced them in the trials. And we've moved on.

[Joe House]

We've moved on.

[Chris Ryan]

I'm still trying to figure out what to make of the balloon head stuff. It was obviously a big part of the first episode and the imagery of that is really strong in the opening credits. Do you have any ideas about that?

[Joe House]

Ben Stiller said in the official podcast that there's a cause there's a balloon in the opening credits for season one. That was something that the designer of the opening credits of season one just came up with. Just like a random image that he came up with. And so he said the balloons in episode one were inspired by the opening credits of season one. And so then the opening credits of season two are in turn inspired. So it's just a feedback loop seemingly of the artist of the opening credits. But Ben Stiller.

[Chris Ryan]

The balloon has eaten its own string.

[Joe House]

Yeah, an ouroboros of balloons. But Ben Stiller has said that there are a lot of things from future episodes of season two that are in these opening credits. So the more we watch, the more we'll understand the opening credits. So maybe we'll just check back in every week and sort of see if we've got more illumination there.

[Bill Simmons]

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[Joe House]

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[Chris Ryan]

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[Joe House]

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[Chris Ryan]

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[Joe House]

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[Chris Ryan]

Everybody's talking about Bervin. Everybody's talking about Bervin. Everybody. Joe.

[Joe House]

Everybody's talking about Birmingham.

[Chris Ryan]

While we're talking reintegration. Though I do feel like Irving could be a natural candidate for reintegration at some point. Again, someone who has a fundamental tension in his character between an Audi who is investigating things going on at Lumen, having clandestine payphone calls, and also an innie who is in love with Burt and an outside world, Burt, who is at least curious about what the fuck is going on with this guy who showed up at his house.

[Joe House]

Okay, so here's my question. I had one interpretation of the phone message that we hear from Irving here, and then no one else in the world seems to have that same interpretation. So, okay, I'm probably wrong. Okay, so this is what Irving says into the pay phone. Okay, you're not picking up. I get it. I want you to know my innie got the message. Okay, so Rob Oni.

[Chris Ryan]

Yes.

[Joe House]

Who do you think Irving is calling? Why wouldn't that person want to pick up? And what do we think the message was that any Irving received?

[Chris Ryan]

I mean, the bird possibility is clearly there. As far as, like, not being. Not being responded to or answered, I think that is the feint. That is the surface level, like, the last thing you saw. Everything that we've really heard about with Irving this season has been Bert related.

[Joe House]

Yeah.

[Chris Ryan]

I think this is probably more in conjunction with someone he was working with with whatever project he has vis a vis Lumen.

[Joe House]

So maybe Regabi could be.

[Chris Ryan]

Regabi could be a journalist, could be a character we haven't met yet. I don't exactly know this season. It does. Like, I do feel this season, even though we haven't gotten a huge influx of new characters, just subtle ways where the show is kind of building its world out a little bit and reintroducing some new ideas and even just showing us, like, the bizarro macro data refinement team. Things like that make it feel like, okay, there's some people who, if they're not going to be introduced to the story, at least there's some kind of tentacles reaching outward.

[Joe House]

Mark W. Broke his lease in Grand Rapids to come here. Like, how? Straight up, fuck Lumen, you know, very rude.

[Chris Ryan]

They're responsible for that, I think, as far as I'm concerned.

[Joe House]

Okay, so could Irving be calling, like, a Ragabi figure or a journalist or someone else that he's working with, perhaps. But I guess what doesn't sit right with me with that is, like, you're not picking up. I get it. And sure, that could be information we learn later, but like, okay, you're not picking up. I get it. I guess I can't shake the idea that, like, Bert and Irving know each other outside and in. And, oh, why haven't they shown us what happened in the immediate aftermath of. Because when Irving was woken up.

[Chris Ryan]

Yes.

[Joe House]

He was banging on Bert's door.

[Chris Ryan]

Yep.

[Joe House]

And we didn't get to see what happened after that. We see what happens with Dylan in the immediate aftermath. We see what happened with Mark in the immediate aftermath. We see what happened with Heli in the immediate aftermath. Helena in the immediate aftermath. We don't see what happened with Irving and Burt on the doorstep.

[Chris Ryan]

So when he's in the elevator and reawakened on the severed floor, he is banging on the elevator door, much like he was banging on Burt's door.

[Joe House]

Yes.

[Chris Ryan]

And I think we're led to believe, and we talked about this some last week, that that's picking up the second it left off where we saw him in the show. But I'm with you, that I think there could be a gap of time there where Burt opens the door and they have some length of conversation and Bert shuts the door, and this is him trying to get Burt to open up again to continue the conversation. Or maybe Cindy doesn't want to see him again. Or as you say, maybe they have some kind of history in the outside world.

[Joe House]

Well, I guess this is. I don't know. I was just like, maybe it's so hard to talk about theories on this show when I have to talk about different versions of character. But if, like, Audi Burt knows Audi Irving. Okay, somehow this idea of, like, we'll meet again, we'll meet again, we'll meet again. Like, they already know each other on the outside, and so they felt this connection on the inside because they already knew each other on the outside. Sort of a thought I had. Even though we know that Bird is married and we saw John Noble play his husband in season one and stuff like that, but I think that, like, if Bert opens the door and it's outie Irving and it's outie Bert, and they've agreed not to talk to each other, and he's like, what the fuck are you doing here on my doorstep? Like, we. We said we wouldn't see each other anymore. And so Irving calls him and says, okay, you're not picking up. I get it. Like, why you wouldn't answer my phone calls. Something like that. I don't think that any Irving had any more time with Bert. But I'm wondering if Audi Irving and Audi Burt had a conversation or certainly something happened that at least Piqued Burt's interest because he has followed Irving and is watching him here.

[Chris Ryan]

Yes.

[Joe House]

So just to recap, Bervin, everybody's talking.

[Chris Ryan]

At least we are.

[Joe House]

Everybody's talking about Irving here.

[Chris Ryan]

Here's my question about that. If Audi Irving and Audi Burt were able to have some communication or conversation after the overtime, is it overtime protocol? I keep saying it.

[Joe House]

Contingency something.

[Chris Ryan]

I think it might be contingency. The otc, the overtime contingency.

[Joe House]

It made me think the license turned off from Jurassic Park. Okay, go ahead.

[Chris Ryan]

After it was turned off. If they did have a window of time there, then why would. I'm trying to connect that to the elevator and any Irving being woken up. But I guess regardless, he was still kind of shut down when he was banging on the door one way or the other. So, yeah, those things can coexist.

[Joe House]

Okay, on the message front, let's put the Bert theory aside, because I. It's. I'm unable to make a very strong case there. It's just like a feeling I have. And especially because, like, what information does Irving have to work off of this map that says, like, Bert on it and stuff like that. Like Audi Irving is like, what was my innie up to? Like, all this other stuff like that in terms of, like, the message? I think a strong theory on that front is that the paintings that he was constantly making in his house was this idea of, like, if I constantly expose myself to this image, I can bleed that image in through to my innie, and then my innie will go investigate this elevator, the same elevator we saw Ms. Casey go down in season one. So the paint oozing over the cubicle is part of this, like, painting message sort of seeping through the severance process. This idea that, like, which. Which to me points to. Does that make sense? Which to me points to perhaps Irving working in cahoots with Dr. Agabi, who's like, if you. If you expose yourself enough to a certain image in your waking life, yes, your sleeping innie self will be able to see it. And that's a way without written communication, because they can't do it. You can communicate something to your innie. You can do it through this visual cue or something like that.

[Chris Ryan]

So I think that was the attempt. But then what happened is that Annie Irving woke up and saw all the paintings and is like, what the fuck is this dark, mysterious hallway I have painted 500 times.

[Joe House]

Correct.

[Chris Ryan]

And then was returned. And so we saw that in the first episode of him having an awareness of this hallway and this elevator exist. I don't know what they are or how to get there, but they're out there.

[Joe House]

Yeah. All right. Anything else you want to say about Burvin before everybody stops talking about burping? Until next week, I think it's time.

[Chris Ryan]

For everyone to stop talking about it for once.

[Joe House]

Okay, just. Just shut up about Burbing for once. Let's go to the great Doors, Dylan and the Door Factory interview. Some of the best shit that's ever happened in my entire life. Yep. I could not possibly take you through all of the best parts of this scene, because almost every line is the best part of the scene. But I will say going back through, and it's hard to pick. It really is, I have to say. May I ask about benefits? And there's a coffee maker. And he gestures to the coffee maker on his desk. That one got me the most on rewatch. Pretty good. Did you have a favorite moment of this interview?

[Chris Ryan]

I think it was when he's talking about how Lumen makes their own doors in house, and it's fucking hubris that one jumps out. But look, this scene really did have it all, you know, like our first real time with Dylan's outy, which was as delightful as I expected and could have hoped it would be. We've got the doppelganger interview. We've got the door puns. We even have, frankly, good podcasting banter, Joe, because if you were a kind of door, what kind of door would you be?

[Joe House]

Do you have an answer for this?

[Chris Ryan]

I have one.

[Joe House]

What's your answer?

[Chris Ryan]

I would say definitely, for me, saloon door. You know, I don't want something too restrictive. I want something flexible. I want something unflappable. I want something that, when it opens up with force, you're saying shit is going down. You know, like that. That's the level of announcement that I want in my life.

[Joe House]

That's such a good answer.

[Chris Ryan]

Well, I had. I had the benefit of creating the question. I'm putting you on the spot.

[Joe House]

Pocket door was a great answer.

[Chris Ryan]

Very good. And the exploration of why a pocket door was also very good.

[Joe House]

A very, like, severance sort of answer. I might go with a French door.

[Chris Ryan]

Okay.

[Joe House]

Because it's. Even when you go through it, you're still inside. That sounds nice to me. But also, like, it's just. It's a. It's a beautiful accent in your home. You can see through it. It's just like, yeah, transparency, indoor kit, energy. All of this is available to you if you're a French door.

[Chris Ryan]

I Think that's a beautiful and noble insight, Joe. I, I, I appreciate that you want to be a French door.

[Joe House]

I really like your saloon door answer though. Do you want to away on the paint question?

[Chris Ryan]

I do.

[Joe House]

Not a semi glass do.

[Chris Ryan]

I'm flexible. I feel like frankly if it's a saloon door, it's very rarely actually painted.

[Joe House]

Oh yeah, no, that's a, you want.

[Chris Ryan]

That real wood grain vibe maybe at best like some kind of red polish.

[Joe House]

Finish, A varnish of some sort.

[Chris Ryan]

A little bit of a varnish, but let's not get crazy with it.

[Joe House]

Okay. Something that Dan Erickson. So two things. Dan Erickson worked in the door factory when he came up with the idea for severance. So that's a fun fact. But secondly, the thing that he talked the most about on the official podcast that that most sort of hadn't occurred to me is he and Adam talked a lot about this idea that Dylan on the outside. Audi Dylan is really at a loss for his own identity, is really in search for his own identity and any Dylan is so sure of who he is. And Audi Dillon, despite the available sort of identity of dad or husband, is still sort of flailing and floundering. A lot of people noticed that he asked immediately sort of about like health benefits. So there's this question of like is his wife ill or is one of his children ill? Like that's why he has to be on the healthcare plan. Perhaps that's the case. But this idea of Dylan as like someone who is insecure and floundering versus Dylan who is full of bravado on the inside, I'm not sure that's quite what leapt out to me inside of this sequence, but I'm willing to sort of engage with that as a dichotomy to watch in the future. Any thoughts on that?

[Chris Ryan]

I think there's the seeds of it and frankly an idea to explore there. As far as like, I mean, look, who among us could possibly relate to this idea? Joe but the idea that your work and your identity are tethered so strongly together and who you are is what you do or what you produce. I, you know, we would never fall into such traps, but other people might, Dylan included. And you can tell, even though honestly he doesn't get a lot to explore as far as his internality, as far as like what he feels or thinks like these two Dylan's might have that part in common, but you do get the sense that he doesn't know what to do with not with losing his job. It's like what do I tell my wife? Like, what do I tell my wife and kids after this happens? And then when he starts going through the interview process and they go through his resume and it's like a lot of short term jobs that have clearly turned over very quickly and someone who is in search of something about themselves.

[Joe House]

A kickball enthusiast, at least participant.

[Chris Ryan]

He didn't seem that enthusiastic.

[Joe House]

And then it's always good, I think, to check in, as we have with Rickon's friends or the student protesters or Petey's daughter, the people who think the act of severance is unnatural and disgusting and all that. So it's good to be reminded of that. It doesn't feel legal to discriminate on the base of severance. But I'm not a Supreme Court justice.

[Chris Ryan]

You know what, it's, it's 2025. I'm not here to speak on what is legal and what is not anymore.

[Joe House]

Great point, Rob. Okay, let's go to my new favorite character, which is Detective Devin. Devin, as we hoped, is like on the case, I want to shout out something really quickly so they go back to Pips. Having seen season one several years ago as we did, and then this summer or this fall, I went to go visit a friend of mine in upstate New York, and we went to this diner in the Catskills, Phoenicia Diner. And I was watching this episode, I was like, that looks just like the Phoenicia Diner. And it is the goddamn Phoenicia Diner in the Catskills. So I have been to Pips in upstate New York and had incredible pancakes there and shout out the Phoenicia Diner. It's. It's the best.

[Chris Ryan]

I do want to push back on Devin's categorization of do you want to go get some shitty diner food? I've been to many diners. None of it is shitty. All of it is beautiful in its.

[Joe House]

Own way, and especially not the. I mean, I don't want to speak to Pips. Maybe it's shitty if you're not in the VIP section of Pips. But like I.

[Chris Ryan]

As you were.

[Joe House]

Well, as Mark is in season one, he's. He gets to be in the VIP section. But like I, I diner coffee can be shitty.

[Chris Ryan]

Oh, sure, but it's part of the charm.

[Joe House]

Not the Phoenicia Diner coffee, though, that, that coffee was, it was hidden. Delicious. Here's the thing about me, and this might be even more revealing about than my door selection. I drink coffee black, no sugar, just hardcore black. Unless I'm in a diner and then I order cream on the side just in case it's shitty. Because if it's shitty, then you can just put cream in it and then everything's fine. And that's sort of how I navigate shitty diner coffee, which is, as you point pointed out, part of the experience.

[Chris Ryan]

Yeah, it's. It's what you're there for. Like I want the clearly frozen French fries. I want the shitty coffee. Like, I want the eggs off a grill that clearly would not pass any health code violation. Like, this is what I am participating in and eager to participate in, I should say.

[Joe House]

I love that. Okay, so this free commercial for. For the Phoenicia diner aside, we already talked a little bit about this interaction between Devin and Mark inside of the diner here. But I just want to talk about Devin in general. She's doing exactly what I hoped, which is like, of all the people to hear she's alive. I had the most faith in Devin. Certainly not in Rickon, though. Shout out Kobelvig as a sort of.

[Chris Ryan]

No, see, this is where we must be. We must put our foot down. No, Kobelvig, this show cannot make Cobelvig a thing. It cannot do it.

[Joe House]

Burvin. Yes. Cobelvig. No.

[Chris Ryan]

Verving is extra textual. Like you can't create your own nicknames. It doesn't work that way.

[Joe House]

You can because I. All of Reddit is already calling Milkshake Milkshake. Milkshake. That's all I've seen. They just call him Mr. Milkshake.

[Chris Ryan]

Okay, that one actually look great. Counterpoint. Milkshake is quite good. And I support Milkshake for some reason. Cobelvig. It bothered me.

[Joe House]

You just gotta be the you you are, Rob, and I support you in that. But Devin is the best. And Devin's demeanor towards Milchick is my favorite. And also the way that she drops a towel on top of the picture of Gemma and Mark, sort of very casually to conceal any further line of inquiry around. That was really quick thinking, which I really liked. I do not know why she's married to Rickon. I'll never understand it. He's a buffoon, but she's the best.

[Chris Ryan]

That's his charm though. I like having him on the show. He would clearly be a terrible person to be around in actual life. But as a character on a show, I appreciate his presence.

[Joe House]

Oh yeah, no, he's a delight to watch. I just don't want Devin married to him necessarily. But Mr. Drummond, who you mentioned, the bearded enforcer Lumen Enforcer is here at the diner. She is referred to as uppity. A little bit later in the episode, Devin, which just makes me worried about Devin. So I'm gonna say it right here, right now on season two, episode two. Ben Stiller, Dan Erickson, anyone, if you're listening, if you hurt Devon, a hair on Devon's head.

[Chris Ryan]

What about the baby? The baby can go.

[Joe House]

The baby is fine. Devon must be protected.

[Chris Ryan]

Again, she only pops up in this episode in small bursts, but critical ones, as you say, to the drive and the structure of what needs to happen. Like, someone outside needs to have heard what Mark had to say and be skeptical of everything that Lumen is doing. And, yeah, like, her interactions with Milchick, I want to echo, are wonderful in part because we are so conditioned from season one to see Milchick in particular as someone who's like, you cannot cross this person. Like, there are real consequences on the severed floor when you act up. And so to see literally anybody sticking up, like, standing up to him, I think is a nice change of pace and something that you almost, like, reflexively have to check in your watching experience. But also what Mark and Devon represent to each other in that diner conversation as they're talking about Gemma, I think is just a great way to, you know, as we're swirling around our sci fi and our quest for human emotion, two great tastes that taste great together, we're getting into this sense of what grief means to different people. And Mark having the perspective of being so scaldingly close to this pain of loss of his wife that he cannot see what's happening and doesn't want to confront it and honestly can't even understand why someone like Devin would be affected by his wife's death versus Devon, who has just enough distance to still hurt a lot and still want answers, but also to see the evidence that's laying out for what it is.

[Joe House]

I love that. And we did get some information in season one about, like, how close all four of them were. And, you know, there is evidence that Devon was quite close, that she's not posturing here at all. No, I can understand Mark feeling affronted by it, but I think Devin is quite genuine in her ownership of this part of the grief. I do want to shout out, we talked about it. But like, the phrase that Milchick uses, perhaps quoting Mark directly, that you were choking on her ghost, is what he says about how Mark was just undertow. The undertow of grief had taken him. I won't call her Cobelvig. But I do want to talk about Ms. Selvig before we go.

[Chris Ryan]

I appreciate your discretion.

[Joe House]

Two iconic, incredible moments from Oscar winner Patricia Arquette inside of this episode.

[Chris Ryan]

Just being a God tier weirdo in a very weird show and just is so wonderful.

[Joe House]

The play of emotion on her face when Helena is sort of making the offer to her of like, you can come back and there's this pot. Like all of that sequence is really good. Especially like Helena's completely disingenuous apology. Her, we don't fear anyone. All this sort of stuff, like all the Helena stuff is really good, but there's a moment inside of it. I think it's before she offers her the bullshit role that's not on the severance floor.

[Chris Ryan]

You don't. You don't think that's a real job?

[Joe House]

I think most of the severance advisory, counseling, it would be new. And I think even before the apology, just the offer, before she asked for, I think she says an apology is due. There's just this pause and a play of emotion on Patricia archives face. That is nine different things at once. And I mean, this is why you hire her. She's just amazing. And then of course, there's the primal scream at the end.

[Chris Ryan]

What a rip from her. The scream was great. And to your point about the nine different things, there's nine different things, like what Britt Lauer is giving us, which is schemes within schemes, levels of understanding and navigating her own wants and needs versus furthering the aims of the corporation and her family. And then there's whatever is happening within Ms. Cobell, who is just like cuckoo bananas. Like, I have no bearing over what this character wants yet, or no grasp of what she actually wants. To the point that were I Mark, I'm not sure I would go home that night after everything that happened to live next door to the woman who has stalked me across two separate lives and committed, among other things, Joe, at least, some lactation fraud.

[Joe House]

Thank you for getting that phrase in there. You and Devin are heroes for saying it. Something that Milchick says about Selvig Kovel is he says, quote, she will never descend to that floor again, nor bedevil you out here.

[Chris Ryan]

Our guys just got a flourish. The bedevil really got me.

[Joe House]

Hell descend like hell. Language, devil language, all that sort of stuff like that. But my question is, if that were the case, why does Lumen allow for the opportunity for Mark to have this interaction with her? Like you would think that they would like, escort her to that housing. Yeah, and you know what I mean? Like, why is she out there alone allowed to have this interaction with him? The Reddit detectives have pointed out that she drives a white rabbit, which is just like a fun, like, Alice in Wonderland sort of thing. And also, I have felt this way since season one. I cannot tell you why I feel like she's an actual hero. She's a hero. She's a stealth hero that she. I don't think she's the villain of this show.

[Chris Ryan]

And I think, well, clearly not if it's, like, woman who is obsessed with some stuff versus big evil corporation courting immortal life. Like, one of those things is more evil than the other.

[Joe House]

But I feel like once we understand, like, what she's actually after, because she's the one who sort of goes rogue about the idea of reintegration in season one. She's the one who's testing the bounds on Mark and Gemma in a way that is not, you know, official and stuff like that. So I don't know if, like. I don't know, I just have this, like, feeling that she's like. I don't know. I just. The way I hear some people talk about her.

[Chris Ryan]

Yeah.

[Joe House]

You know what. What a. Like, all sorts of stuff, and I'm.

[Chris Ryan]

Just like, she's a. I just think she's a little. A little loose in the head. Yeah, yeah.

[Joe House]

Like, not you. Not you, not you. Like, obviously, we. We both agree that she's a little loose in the head. She put chamomile and cookies. Like, I'm not saying.

[Chris Ryan]

No greater evidence you will find than that.

[Joe House]

Not saying that. Every screw is tight there. Some of them are a bit loose. But I just think that, like, once we fully understand the shape of her motivation, I feel like I'm gonna be on her side.

[Chris Ryan]

Could be.

[Joe House]

So I'm interested to see that.

[Chris Ryan]

And let's zoom out for some TV logic for a second, which is this is the beginning of season two of a show. Patricia Arquette is on it and I presume will continue to be on it.

[Joe House]

Correct.

[Chris Ryan]

And so what is she going to do if not work at Lumen and the long arc of television? Joe tells us that by season three or four, the villains and the heroes have teamed up for some cause against a yet to be undiscovered villain. Some greater cause that they must combat together.

[Joe House]

A bearded baby, perhaps a beard.

[Chris Ryan]

Look, we're all trying to fight against.

[Joe House]

The bearded babies, all right? That's, like, the main sort of outline of what I wanted to go through. Anything that we haven't covered that. You want to make sure that we.

[Chris Ryan]

Check in on one more thing that I think ties into some of what you and I discussed when we were talking about Squid Game, Joe, as it relates to hidden identities, ulterior motives and the sort of like, do you use that as a dramatic reveal or do you use it to build suspense within the show? I think in this case, Heli versus Helena and how much more fun it is to now have the opportunity over the remainder of this season to interpret those things not as a potential big reveal, which I just don't think it's going to be, and I'm not treating it that way. And more as we get to decipher all the doublespeak and decipher the hidden meaning and the subtext of every line. Like, I'm glad to be in this place. Even though, frankly, I think the show is kind of having it both ways at once.

[Joe House]

I really, I really agree. I really agree. I think, again, it makes me optimistic for the future of sort of how they're going to calibrate their mysteries and their reveals, that they have made it ambiguous enough that people can still fight about it on the Reddit if they want to.

[Chris Ryan]

Yes.

[Joe House]

And people seem to want to.

[Chris Ryan]

And in our [e-mail] if you so.

[Joe House]

Choose, and on Twitter and wherever else you like to fight with people, that's all great. Blue sky, etc. Etc. Um, but also it's. They're not really trying to hide it at the same time. Like both of that is. Both of those things are true. I think so.

[Chris Ryan]

Well, and some of the other shows that we've covered recently that have been so aggravating were when they tried to treat things that were plain as day as, oh my God, the big reveal's coming. You don't even see it. You can't even handle what we're about to show you. And I don't get that sense of severance at all. I know there are a lot of mysteries and a lot of secrets, and I'm not saying every one of the reveals is going to be exactly what we like, what we are crazy about in terms of the storytelling, but I feel confident enough based on the rollout that they know how to parcel these things and they know how to modulate our expectations and just incrementally give us a slightly bigger understanding of the world every week until we get somewhere.

[Joe House]

Another day, another stray aimed at disclaimer.

[Chris Ryan]

Okay, I didn't say that that was you. I didn't. I didn't name any shows.

[Joe House]

We're going to wrap up here with what may become a weekly bid. If you guys continue to email [e-mail] or prestige TV Spotify.com Matt R. Wrote in on the question of what would, what would he sever? And his is such a good one. Matt wrote. As for what I would sever, how about long haul flights, daily commutes. So any form of annoying travel, you book your vacation and then all of a sudden you're in Japan. No customs, no baggage check, no waiting for a taxi, no more stuck in traffic for an hour each way between the office and home. Just get in your car and pop, you're at work and pop your back home home. So like a real like that's the end of Matt's emails. Like a real sort of like Star Trek transporter situation. I would just like ask Matt to consider. We just always need to. I think this is what the show is teaching us. Consider your innie and say, is your innies life then just sitting in planes and cars?

[Chris Ryan]

I am saying to my innie, eat shit. You are on an eight hour flight in an economy class seat. Cause I don't. It's not my problem.

[Joe House]

No, it's not your leg room.

[Chris Ryan]

This is why I can't decide if, say that severance were a real thing that could happen in the real world, would the airline lobby lobby for it or against it? Cause on the one hand I could see a lot of people wanting to travel, people who not only are uncomfortable or don't want a long flight, but maybe incredibly anxious flying. And you could, you know, delegate that to your innie. I think that would be a relief for lots of different people. But on the other hand, no one is ever paying for business class ever again. You know, all, all those sweet, sweet upcharges, they're just not happening for you. American Airlines, I'm sorry, no one's ever.

[Joe House]

Going to get served a bowl of warm nuts on a flight. Again. How sad.

[Chris Ryan]

Credit card privileges revoked for the Indus.

[Joe House]

I also feel like if the airplane, you know, lobby were to push for this, they would want some sort of like sedative sort of thing to come with the severance thing because like, oh yeah, we, we're, we've seen rebellious innies. You don't want a pack of rebellious innies on a great point on a flight, a red eye or something like that. You want them docile as cattle. So you know, the, the severance chip and a mild sedative and a pineapple.

[Chris Ryan]

Maybe that's all I really. That's all you need.

[Joe House]

And a champagne mango. All right, that has been our coverage of season two, episode two of Severance. I would like to encourage all of you to email us pineapple bobbingmail.com and I would like to encourage you all to continue to think about Birvin. Kai, can we hear that one more time, just once?

[Chris Ryan]

Everybody's talking about birthing. Everybody's talking about birthing.

[Joe House]

I really hope this is as funny to you all as it is to us, because we're not gonna stop.

[Chris Ryan]

Nope.

[Joe House]

Thank you to Kai Grady for being the best always. And to Justice Dales for his larger work on the feed. And we will see you for the agency. We will see you for Severance. We will see you for the pit. We are in it 2025. Bye.