Loading summary
Transcript344 lines
- [00:05]
Rob Mahoney
Did you and Helia catch up? We did. Did you tell her that you her Audi at the Oro.
- [00:18]
Helena Egan
Helena Egan leader.
- [00:21]
Rob Mahoney
In waiting of this company. Have a restful evening.
- [00:50]
Joanna Robinson
Hello. Welcome back to the Prestige TV podcast feed. I'm Joanna Robinson from the Void. That's Rob Mahoney from home. And Rob, where do you think your affection index is these days with our listeners?
- [01:02]
Rob Mahoney
You can't ask me to self evaluate. Look, I would. You know what I was going to ask for those scores. I don't want those scores. Don't. Don't tell us please what our affection. Absolutely not.
- [01:14]
Joanna Robinson
I would say based on the number of emails we got in response to you, you sharing your nightmare about your recurring nightmare about not being able to drop a class.
- [01:24]
Rob Mahoney
Yes.
- [01:25]
Joanna Robinson
We got so many people saying yes. Rob speaks for the people. He is a man of the people. I would say you're in the 80s this week. That's what I think.
- [01:34]
Rob Mahoney
I have never felt more seen in my entire life. So shout out to everyone who is also failing exams in their dreams or not knowing their exams in their dreams. I. I just feel very connected to the outside world in a way that as I am currently recording in my closet, I don't often.
- [01:51]
Joanna Robinson
We're here to talk to you About Severance Season 2, Episode 5 Trojan's Horse.
- [02:01]
Rob Mahoney
Just a wonderful recognism.
- [02:03]
Joanna Robinson
Exactly. Before we do that, we should mention, in case you haven't noticed, there's a lot of White Lotus content coming in this feed. So on Sunday night, Bill and Mallory and I will be doing an instant sort of reaction vibypod and then a few days later, Rob and I are doing what is known at the ringer as the pre cap. But we don't really fully understand exactly what that means. But what it means is that we will be reading your emails covering theories, diving deep into White Lotus. We'll have two White Lotus episodes per week and then our usual severance coverage. And then before all is said and done, we will be heading back to the pit.
- [02:37]
Rob Mahoney
We must.
- [02:38]
Joanna Robinson
That is what is happening in the Prestige feed. And if you are a Yellow Jackets fan and you're like, where's the Yellow Jackets coverage? That's over on House of Our. Mallory and I are doing that on House of R. So that is what is happening all around the various feeds. Prestigev.Spotify.com is how you can reach us for any of the shows. So if you've got White Lotus thoughts or feelings. We have not come up with a fun and quirky White Lotus email yet. So prestige TV Spotify.com pineapplebobbing gmail.com to let Rob know what his affection index score is. Please don't you so much. This week's episode, Trojan's Horse, was directed by Sam Donovan, written by Megan Richie, and I've just got a few responses that I want to cover to last week's episode Hollow that we got from people. A lot of people wrote in about our question about the dot. The creepy doppelgangers that we saw.
- [03:27]
Rob Mahoney
Yes.
- [03:27]
Joanna Robinson
Out in the wilderness and what a lot of people pointed out. We don't. Since we usually watch on screeners. We don't get it previously on and we don't get sort of the post credit in conversation thing that they do in the previously on. Last week they made sure to show the animatronics in the sort of like, creepy cure museum that is exists in Lumen. And so a lot of people said they thought maybe they were animatronics. That seems like a lot of effort to haul those animatronics out for the Orbo, just for creepy vibes, but just.
- [03:58]
Rob Mahoney
For the hall of Presidents out in the wilderness. It's unnecessary.
- [04:01]
Joanna Robinson
How big do you think that ORPO team was? Because we've got Milchick and, and Ms. Wong. But like, Ms. Wong's not dragging those animatronics out into the middle of the. Of the snow.
- [04:11]
Rob Mahoney
Right.
- [04:11]
Joanna Robinson
We've got a whole SWAT team.
- [04:13]
Rob Mahoney
Nor is she pitching a tent. I, I just think there's a. There's a lot of, like, logistical leg work that has to be done and shout, you know, shout out to the ahead team who really set all this stuff up. The, the mysterious and important Lumen employees who we never see. Uh, but they're, they're doing the good work, I think.
- [04:30]
Joanna Robinson
To that end, we got a lot of emails before this week's episode asking us if we thought the ORPO took place in some sort of holodeck, some sort of virtual space. I think this week's episode does the work to try to underline that that's not the case. In the conversation that Mark has with Devin about not just the sort of like, permission slip aspect of you can take my Annie somewhere fun and mysterious and exciting, but also the comment about him being wet.
- [04:59]
Rob Mahoney
Right.
- [04:59]
Joanna Robinson
You know what I mean? It's just sort of like something physically happened to him that they had to explain to him when he was awoken from it.
- [05:07]
Rob Mahoney
I also assume, like, I wasn't quite sure what to read into Mark having a cough in this episode, if that's supposed to be because he got wet on the Ortbow and it was cold and therefore now has a cold. Or is it a side effect of the reintegration? But he's clearly feeling something. He's got a little head cold.
- [05:25]
Joanna Robinson
Yeah. I would say a dip in the, in the icy waters might do that to you.
- [05:28]
Rob Mahoney
Perhaps also those just terrible looking post op smoothies might do it to you. I. I don't know what's going on in there, but I. I don't want any part of it.
- [05:37]
Joanna Robinson
Yeah, that, that goes to something I wanted to talk about next. But before we wrap up on last week's feedback, I want to say that a bunch of people or people wrote in about anagrams, which I love. An anagram and a mystery box show. So Natalie T. Wrote in to let us know that Dieter Egan, the mysterious masturbating twin. If you rearrange Dieter Egan, it says AI generated.
- [06:00]
Rob Mahoney
Yep.
- [06:01]
Joanna Robinson
Which is exciting and new.
- [06:02]
Rob Mahoney
It is.
- [06:03]
Joanna Robinson
And then a lot of people pointed out that Ortbo is an anagram of robot, which is just. Yeah, it's right there. Something to think about, which I think.
- [06:09]
Rob Mahoney
Fueled some of the speculation about it being some sort of simulation, but it apparently is not. So, you know, you can get a red herring with these anagrams too.
- [06:16]
Joanna Robinson
You should. Oh, the time. And last but not least, Chris P. Wrote in to draw a connecting line between Irving's final moments in the woods and a really famous John Turturo scene in Miller's Crossing. An excellent film, an excellent early Turturo performance. So if you've never seen that movie, why not use severance as an excuse to watch Miller's Crossing? Sounds like a good idea to me on that sort of gross post ops movie point that you made. I did want to do quick opening credits imagery check in because those slimy little vials are in the opening credits.
- [06:53]
Rob Mahoney
I didn't even clock that. Where are they?
- [06:54]
Joanna Robinson
Yeah, they're like on a table and they get knocked over and they sort of like spill around and stuff like that. On the Reddit. Someone on the Reddit called it Garmabozia, which is this Twin Peaks. Wait, have we talked about Twin Peaks? Are you Peaks Ed?
- [07:09]
Rob Mahoney
Rob, I've never seen it.
- [07:10]
Joanna Robinson
Okay, in. I just need to explain. In Twin Peaks, there's this like, mysterious substance. Justin Sales is on this call, shaking my head at my inability to under, like explain what this is. But it's supernatural nature. It's. Maybe you're consuming the soul of someone, I don't know. But it's called Garmabozien it's essentially creamed corn. And like, it does look a lot like, you know, what we're, we're drinking here.
- [07:34]
Rob Mahoney
At least blend it up, you know, the canned creamed corn. The least ideal possible creamed corn. And I said, I say this is a southerner with deep affection for creamed corn, but this is not the kind you want.
- [07:45]
Joanna Robinson
And someone else on the Reddit called it the substance, which, hey, if you haven't seen the substance, why not use severance as an excuse to watch both Millers cross go? What a, what a double feature. That would be the substance of Miller's Crossing. Why not? This episode is brought to you by Coffee Mate. I love a good crossover, especially when it's with a show you love. This time the crossover isn't with another character, but with Coffee Mate. Coffee Mate has collaborated with HBO's the White Lotus to bring us two tropically inspired limited time only flavors, Pina Colada and Thai iced coffee flavored creamers. And as a coffee fanatic, I can't wait to try them. All right, Thai iced coffee in my coffee. Pina colada in coffee. I am adventurous when it comes to new flavors, but this sounds truly different. I'm picturing something tropical and refreshing, like a beachside cocktail, but with a coffee twist. Definitely curious to see how it all comes together. Let's try it. Mm. The Thai iced coffee is amazing. It tastes like, like an authentic Thai iced coffee with that, you know, the condensed milk sweetness to it. I was very skeptical about the pina colada, but it's surprisingly delicious. The coconut and pineapple notes make it feel like a vacation in a cup, perfect for sipping while watching the latest episode of HBO's original series, the White Lotus Coffee Mates. The White Lotus flavors are only available for a limited time, so try them now and stream HBO's original series on.
- [09:10]
Helena Egan
This episode is brought to you by Lincoln. There's something buzzy in the air. Spring is coming, the mood is shifting and new journeys are beginning. Say goodbye to the winter blues and experience the revitalizing qualities of driving a Lincoln. Everything about a Lincoln is designed to invigorate our senses. And the Lincoln Spring sales event. It's happening right now. Step outside and visit your local lincoln retailer or lincoln.com to find some seriously mood enhancing offers on current and past Lincoln models. Learn more@lincoln.com and I wanted to sort.
- [09:43]
Joanna Robinson
Of enter into our conversation of this episode today with a clip from Jen Turlock, who plays Devin. One of our listeners, Joseph Teague sent this in it's an interview clip where she's talking about what she thinks the show is about. And I kind of wanted to take that concept and maybe check in with all of our characters inside of this episode through that concept. So, Donnie, will you play that clip? People have asked me what they. What I think severance is about. I think, you know, the sound bite is it's about the work life balance. But I've always said I think it's about American loneliness and ennui and what it means to be in so much pain that you have to cut off half of your consciousness. Yeah. So loneliness.
- [10:31]
Rob Mahoney
Yeah. A little bit of that going around this week.
- [10:34]
Joanna Robinson
Yeah. I would say a lot. I would say, given that we ended and we talked about this a little over the last couple episodes, about how season one ends with this defiant act of fellowship between the core four and how immediately Lumen sort of scrambled the jets in order to figure out how to isolate them by luring Dylan with his own sort of side plot treat. But by putting Helena in there instead of Hel, we're all sort of broken up. And now they've removed Irving entirely from the group. So let's. Let's run through it. And I actually want to start with Milchick, because this is a performance review episode from Milchick. He gets rebuffed by his. By Natalie's attempt, like his attempt to find common cause with Natalie is rebuffed. And then it seems pretty clear based on what happens inside of that performance review and the way that she was sort of talking about it before that, that Ms. Wong Narc on him, I would say. And so. And in real. In response to that, in response to him feeling isolated. He doesn't have an ally, Ms. Wong. He doesn't have an ally. Well, he.
- [11:45]
Rob Mahoney
He burned that allyship the moment he refused to let her play the theremin. Like, I mean, you gotta let her cook. This is her moment.
- [11:54]
Joanna Robinson
Do you think it wouldn't have gone as poorly for him if he had just let her play the theremin?
- [11:58]
Rob Mahoney
Exactly. Yeah. Look, maybe she doesn't understand the reason for the funeral. And I want to talk some about some of these scenes, too, between Ms. Wong and Milchik. The performance review. Of course, I wouldn't say they hit me the best of any of the scenes in this show. And we can circle back to that in a second. But ultimately, you got to give her her moment. This is her time to shine. She's going to get two recitals. One got interrupted. I would say unfairly. We didn't even get to see the marshmallows through. And now you're not even going to let her play. You're not even going to let her play, like taps.
- [12:29]
Joanna Robinson
What's going on at a funeral? Come on. It's, it's, it's. That's the moment for a theremin, if you're ever going to use one. But I. The, like, the way that she knocked on him, justified or not, similar, we presume, to the way that he knocked on Cobell, you know, and so it's just sort of this, like, predatory circle of life inside of. Of corporate culture. And also you. I was thinking about this email we got from a listener a couple weeks ago about this idea of Ms. Wong being that, like, much younger co worker in charge of you from, like, Mark W's point of view or something like that. And that is. That is one thing, but also this idea of, like, someone younger than, you know, Milchik was younger than Cobell, and now there's someone even comically younger than him, like, coming up behind him, nipping at his heels. So I just thought. I thought all of that was interesting and the fact that it resulted in what did Mil. How did Milchick respond to that? Not by finding common cause with his fellow Illumina employees, but by bringing the hammer down on Mark harder.
- [13:33]
Rob Mahoney
Yep.
- [13:34]
Joanna Robinson
You know, and so that is just sort of like the nature of this trap we find ourselves in sometimes in a corporate setting of just sort of like, or. Or any setting where authority rains down on you. Instead of just saying, like, hey, we're all together under this authority, you just sort of wield what little power you are allowed on the people below you.
- [13:54]
Rob Mahoney
A tale as old as time, unfortunately. And it. I think it's heartbreaking for Milchick because it's so clear he doesn't want to be Cobell and wants to try something different. Whether for efficacy reasons or moral ones, or however he sees the world, he wants to do something else. And even the slightest resistance to that initial rollout of the softer, friendlier Lumen now just leads the whole thing to be kaput. Like, there's just no shot anymore, and we're all tightening the leash.
- [14:20]
Joanna Robinson
Tell me, what didn't work for you in those Milchick scenes that you want to talk about.
- [14:23]
Rob Mahoney
So I would say, overall, for this episode, great for answering questions. We get a lot of, like, very direct answers to a lot of the things we've been talking about. You know, will we see Irving be again? What happened at the Orpo was It a physical space, like all those things are asked and answered. And in a way that I think is really good for clarity purposes and certainly for our podcasting purposes as we're trying to unravel what's going on in severance week to week. There was also a little bit too, like, too much of saying the quiet thing out loud and saying things very directly when previously they had been left up for a little bit of mystery, a little bit of interpretation. And I don't see that in sort of a plot mechanic way, but things like Milchick and Ms. Wong having their exchanges, they're preparing the bereavement materials and. And she tells him up front, like, you should not let them have a funeral because it lets them think that they're people. It's like, okay, that's a theme that we're talking about. But when it's coming out of the character's mouths directly, I'm not as receptive to it. Like, I want it to be a subtler touch than that. And in particular, the exchange we get between Milchick and Natalie in which all of the unsaid things are now just said, was kind of disappointing, to be honest with you.
- [15:32]
Joanna Robinson
I. I don't know that I was disappointed, but I agree with you that I much prefer the version where they said all of that, sort of with their, their eyes and, and her like rictus grin and all that sort of stuff.
- [15:41]
Rob Mahoney
It's like when this happens, what it communicates to me is they didn't trust that. They didn't trust that as an audience and as a performance that would be conveyed effectively. When I thought it spoke, it said everything we needed to know.
- [15:54]
Joanna Robinson
Oh, yeah. No, I mean, I agree with you. I. I want to watch that space. I think I just want to watch to see if we're progressing towards something. If we're progressing towards a moment for Natalie where she changes her mind about which side she decides to sit with Dylan. Dylan is like these sort of the, the best, I think, way to exemplify the way in which they're all alone inside of this episode is the scene when all three of them go into Milchick's office. They're all demanding different information. And Dylan is single minded. He doesn't give three dry about anything else. Right. He's like single minded about what happened to Irving. Is he dead? Then I demand a funeral, you know, and so he is like, he's not part. You know, he has been lured away from the, from the agenda of the group all season because of you know, his relationship with his. His wife, if you.
- [16:53]
Rob Mahoney
It's complicated.
- [16:54]
Joanna Robinson
It's complicated.
- [16:55]
Rob Mahoney
There's love geometry happening all over the show, but inside.
- [17:00]
Joanna Robinson
But now he's. He's isolated inside of this. Like, I have to make things. Something up to Irving. I failed him, and I have something to make up to him. So that's where Dylan sits.
- [17:12]
Rob Mahoney
The whole dynamic across MDR with Irving's funeral is fascinating to me because on the one end, yes, you get Dylan given the eulogy, speaking from his heart, which, as Milchick points out, not something that happens very often for Dylan in this office. Heli is still so shaken up by her circumstances and everything that's happened, but clearly mournful in her way in losing Irving and losing someone she cared about and even someone who attempted to kill a version of her or at least kind of smoke out the reality of who she was hiding in her own skin. And then there's, like, everything that's going on with Mark in this episode and of all the things that he is showing, and there's a lot, and I'm fascinated by it, and I love peeling it back. And there are layers within layers and with layers within layers of what's happening with both Mark and Mark s right now. Him being so cold and cavalier about Irving dying is the part that I'm trying to understand the most right now. Like, I can get behind and find my way to some sort of motivation for most of the things that Mark is doing in this episode. But the way he's just, like, bolting out the door at first instance from the funeral, I don't. Like.
- [18:21]
Joanna Robinson
I don't.
- [18:21]
Rob Mahoney
I don't know what to make of that just yet.
- [18:23]
Joanna Robinson
Yeah. So Adam Scott talked about this a little bit on the official podcast. He was talking. I actually kind of see it a reverse side of this, because from his perspective, Mark is, like, done. He's so devastated by the betrayal that he's just like, let's just put our head down and do the work.
- [18:43]
Rob Mahoney
Yeah.
- [18:43]
Joanna Robinson
And forget rebellion, forget fellowship, forget any of this. I'm just here to do the work.
- [18:49]
Rob Mahoney
The nihilism is coming through real strong by the right.
- [18:51]
Joanna Robinson
So all of that makes sense to me as, like, a sort of trauma response to, you know, thinking you're having sex with someone when you're having sex with someone else, or all of that. All of that stuff. The insistence that he still have Heli with him is actually the flip side of that. That makes less sense to me if he's just given up. If he's just in, you know, nihilism, let's just get the work done mode. You know what, what Drummond and Natalie say is that he will not do it without Heliar.
- [19:19]
Rob Mahoney
Yep.
- [19:20]
Joanna Robinson
Quote, so we have to give her to him. Right.
- [19:23]
Rob Mahoney
Yeah.
- [19:24]
Joanna Robinson
And in a plot, mechanic sense, actually a plot, I was like, how are they ever going to get Helyar back in this plot? Like, how is that ever going to happen? So they figured out a way through twists and turns of the plot to make it happen. And I'm glad for that because I love Helyar and I'm glad she's here.
- [19:41]
Rob Mahoney
Yeah.
- [19:42]
Joanna Robinson
But to your point, I think with the nihilistic state we find Mark in this episode and also what feels like to me an incursion of the Audi Mark attitude.
- [19:57]
Rob Mahoney
Yeah.
- [19:57]
Joanna Robinson
Bullshit Gazette is such an Audi Mark thing to say to Milchick in the elevator. It's not. And so I don't. I think some, some viewers were confused. They were like, is that actually Audi Mark in the elevator? I don't think it is, no.
- [20:11]
Rob Mahoney
I don't think.
- [20:11]
Joanna Robinson
But we're reintegrating, so things are sort of seeping through, you know. And so I think along with the memories, there's like this snarky attitude that Audi Mark had that any Mark never had. But it's like we're all coming together. It's sort of how I was reading it inside of this, you know, know.
- [20:26]
Rob Mahoney
And coming, as we said, from a very fair place. Like his whole world has been shaken up. And I think what he tells heli in terms of having to confront the idea that everything they have been working for has been sabotaged, that every, you know, they thought they were so smart with their cute little plans, but they are three little people. Four. Well, four now. Three within a giant machine. And everything that they've accomplished has been something they were allowed to accomplish. And that's. That's a hard thing to reckon with for anybody. And where it, I think leaves Mark is, you know, we have this conception of Mark as, okay, there is Mark as in Mark Scout. There are these two guys, two versions of the same person.
- [21:01]
Joanna Robinson
Yeah.
- [21:02]
Rob Mahoney
Throughout this episode, I think we basically get four marks because you have classic sad boy Mark Outie who is presenting to the world, his sister included, as a certain kind of thing. And then also going through this process of reintegration with R. That's a whole separate life now he's carving out, even within his Audi life. And then inside you have some version of Company man. Mark s still there, like diligently Putting the numbers into the buckets.
- [21:29]
Joanna Robinson
Yeah.
- [21:29]
Rob Mahoney
Who doesn't want to take the funeral too seriously and just wants to kind of move on because he doesn't know what else to do. And then you also have, I don't know, like nihilist Mark, Comrade Mark, whatever version is kind of like staring himself in the mirror trying to get his shit together. And by the end of the episode, all of these versions have kind of started to bleed together.
- [21:50]
Joanna Robinson
I love that you. So I really did want to bring up in terms of this isolation, loneliness theme that I am insisting we put on every single person. Audi Mark lying to Devin about what he's doing. When Devin was like, that was his community. Yes. Was his sister. And now he's lying to her about this. And sure, Rugabi is living in his basement, but they don't seem like they are the most chummiest of housemates. And so. Yeah.
- [22:17]
Rob Mahoney
How are you feeling about the developing like roommate sitcom between Mark and Rhoda?
- [22:22]
Joanna Robinson
I don't know. He's just got to get that dryer fixed. I got to say, if I moved in, if I moved to some basement and I was promised a washer. Dryer.
- [22:28]
Rob Mahoney
Yep.
- [22:29]
Joanna Robinson
And there was no dryer.
- [22:30]
Rob Mahoney
Furious.
- [22:31]
Joanna Robinson
Irate.
- [22:32]
Rob Mahoney
What are you going to do? Hang dry in a one bedroom apartment? Come on in.
- [22:36]
Joanna Robinson
In the winter?
- [22:36]
Rob Mahoney
Absolutely.
- [22:38]
Joanna Robinson
Okay, so that's Outie Mark and then Edie Mark inside of this hell like he in. He insists on having helly there.
- [22:47]
Rob Mahoney
Yes.
- [22:47]
Joanna Robinson
This actually breaks my heart. It's so human. He insists on having her there. He wants her there. He wants to know she's alive. He wants to see her.
- [22:53]
Rob Mahoney
Yeah.
- [22:54]
Joanna Robinson
But he's not allowing himself closeness with her inside of this episode. And to your point, this is where I bring up Lost in the scene in the bathroom when he's looking in the mirror. This is a very late season loss thing. There's a whole season with a motif of characters looking in the mirror and having this moment of sort of like, where am I? What am I doing? I can't explain it very well without spoiling anything, but just, just know. So the fact that he's looking in the mirror, but then the scene when she comes in to talk to him, it's a torturous camera angle.
- [23:22]
Rob Mahoney
Yeah.
- [23:22]
Joanna Robinson
To get her reflection. So there's two heli's there as he's talking to her and like, you know, obviously it's like, you know, obviously the fractured natures of these people. But like when he says to her in that, in that bathroom counter, I don't really Know you. You know, and she's like, yeah, you do. But like, what. What an earth. She not just the betrayal of someone was there undercover, but she's upset that he couldn't tell the difference. And he's upset that he couldn't tell the difference because he's like, I really thought I was falling for someone. I thought I knew someone and I couldn't even tell that it wasn't her. So how real is this connection that I thought I had with her in the first place? Do you know what I mean?
- [24:01]
Rob Mahoney
Totally. I. I love from a big picture perspective that none of this is as simple as you flip Hel r back on the team is back together. Like everything is. Is pulled so far apart already and so tense.
- [24:13]
Joanna Robinson
Yeah.
- [24:14]
Rob Mahoney
That even leading into this, you can understand why Mark would be so shaken up and not sure what to trust or who to trust or like, do you even know Helia on any level whatsoever if you were so easily deceived? Like it is a self indictment of him as much as anything when he says, I don't really know you. Right. Like that is a. That is a personal lapse on his part. And I love from Helena's perspective that you know, or sorry, from Heli's perspective that Helena using Heli's body is not just a deceitful act to trick Mark and do and worse to him to, you know, deceive the rest of the MDR team to sort of infiltrate and sabotage whatever they had going on. But it's also like very harmful to Heli herself. It's a violation, the absolute violation of someone else using your body and as you said, the double whammy of the people in your life not being able to understand who you are underneath. Which is, I'm sure, something that all of us would hope that the people in our lives could do. But realistically, who is anticipating body swap shenanigans? Maybe the people in the world of severance should be a little more open to the idea than we are. But it's a harder thing to pull out. Is this person having a weird day or are they another consciousness in the body of the person I care about? It's a heady question.
- [25:27]
Joanna Robinson
Oh, are you the chilly, evil corporate version of yourself or are you you today? Who's decided?
- [25:33]
Rob Mahoney
Are you? You are but Brit Lauer bringing the absolute most to both versions of Heli and Helena. And I think getting to spend time with Heli for the first time in a while.
- [25:44]
Joanna Robinson
Yeah.
- [25:44]
Rob Mahoney
I mean, you see the physical transformation. You see the completely different Vocal delivery, which I would say is like a higher register overall and also more tentative and a little bit more wavering, even relative to Helena, who God knows, has her own share of anxieties to deal with and is, to be fair, isolated in her own way in this episode, but just an awesome performance.
- [26:04]
Joanna Robinson
Helen is next on my list. Her sitting opposite Drummond and Natalie, and her asking, you know, is my dad okay with this? Yeah, father approved it.
- [26:16]
Rob Mahoney
What was your read on? Not just that line, but Drummond saying, father encouraged it?
- [26:21]
Joanna Robinson
Yeah, father encouraged it.
- [26:23]
Rob Mahoney
On the one hand, Like, I think that could be sort of a mocking tone of her asking, did father approve this? Like, yes, your father did. Could be kind of a more general term of authority that people use for Jame Egan, calling him father, especially within the company. I've also seen people throwing out, like, does this suggest that Drummond himself is part of the Egan family?
- [26:43]
Joanna Robinson
We did get an email about that. Like that. Is he an Egan bastard or something like that? Which is very. A very Thronesy way to think about it. I think it was more him mocking her. That's how it works. But, yeah, that is definitely a question people are asking.
- [26:58]
Rob Mahoney
And the mocking, I think, facilitates that scene, which really hammers home the point that this is not what Helena herself wants to do.
- [27:06]
Joanna Robinson
Well, what I think is interesting to learn about the power dynamic is like, we assume that he was like her muscle, her hench, and then it's like, no, he has authority above her.
- [27:17]
Rob Mahoney
Yeah.
- [27:17]
Joanna Robinson
You know, where is her power inside of this company?
- [27:22]
Rob Mahoney
In her name, I think. And that's about it. And it's being. And she's being controlled and manipulated, not unlike the way that everyone on MDR is.
- [27:29]
Joanna Robinson
But it doesn't seem like it gives her much. No. Last but not least, to wrap everything up on this sort of loneliness alone list, Devin alone. Mark is lying to her and her husband. I don't know if you noticed, sucks.
- [27:41]
Rob Mahoney
So more than usual, I would say.
- [27:44]
Joanna Robinson
Yeah. It's interesting listening. On the official podcast this week, they. They had the actor played Rick and on. And they were talking a lot about Rick and they were talking about the Rick and Devin marriage, and they were very sort of like, defensive of. Against the critique of what that people are asking, what the hell is Devin doing with Rickett?
- [28:02]
Rob Mahoney
Right.
- [28:02]
Joanna Robinson
Like, you don't know what goes on inside people's homes. You don't know. You won't. We only see a sliver of their lives. That's true.
- [28:09]
Rob Mahoney
Yeah.
- [28:10]
Joanna Robinson
Opposites attract all the time. It was very weird to me. I was just Sort of like, not weird. I understand why they're defending it, but I was like, I. I've definitely seen couples where they're opposites, and I've definitely seen people who are with someone who doesn't seem like worth their time. All that sort of stuff. We see that all the time. But I think that would tell us something about, like, what did Devin need that Rick and can provide? Yeah, that's interesting to me, you know, because their. Their. Their idea was like, he awakened some sort of, like, creativity or bohemian ness in her. And I'm like, no, but it's, you know, it's sort of. It's like when you think about, I don't know, some of the relationships on succession, you know, there's just sort of, like, you see people together and you're like, why? But also, I see how hurt and broken you are and how you're grasping for anything that will sort of fulfill that for you. But Devin, we don't know enough about Devon to know anything about that, so.
- [29:05]
Rob Mahoney
No, And I think what would be necessary to sell a characterization like that is some little beat off to the side, and it doesn't have. It's not a big plot point. But as you're saying, if his value, or even just what she's reaching for is some sort of artistic side of herself or fulfillment in terms of her creativity, like, we just don't have any evidence to suggest that based on their interactions on screen. And I like Rick and scenes personally, but they are incredibly broad. It's the broadest characterization on the show by far.
- [29:34]
Joanna Robinson
Yeah. But also, I thought the most interesting thing they said on the official podcast about him is that he is such an essential part of the storytelling because he is so important for us understanding what the outside world is like. Obviously, he doesn't stand for everyone on the outside world, but we don't spend a lot of time outside of the, like, Lumen coterie. Right. And so we don't know what it's like for people on the outside, outside of, like, Rickon's weird. No dinner parties and book readings and what is Rebecca like, et cetera. So I love that.
- [30:07]
Rob Mahoney
And for it to come from a skeptic and, like, a faux intellectual who can so easily be pulled into this orbit with, like, a single check. And. And really just the assurance that what you do is important. And who among us is not so susceptible to that? Who among us, this week of all weeks, Joe would have to ponder the idea of, like, what if we could create change within the machine? What if we could be the resistance that is actively changing things as we ourselves are co opted and corrupted, just not relevant at all.
- [30:38]
Joanna Robinson
But it never works out that way, does it? Rob Irving alone. Except he's had this encounter with Burt now.
- [30:47]
Rob Mahoney
Well, he's also on a cruise experience, so.
- [30:51]
Joanna Robinson
Yeah, I don't know. We'll. We'll see. Who do you think, who do you think he's calling?
- [30:59]
Rob Mahoney
I feel like from the Roger Ebert economy of characters, it's got to be Cobell.
- [31:05]
Joanna Robinson
Okay. Cobell is a. Is a theory. Rugabi is still on the table. Sure.
- [31:11]
Rob Mahoney
Yep. And. And I think there's some merit to the idea that maybe he hasn't been reintegrated fully, but at least is aware enough of the procedure to try to blend between his consciousnesses to try to work some things. Like, ultimately, I don't think that Irving has been reintegrated, as I've seen theorized, because if he were, then he wouldn't need to try to pass messages from any to Audi. Like, it's clear that he's still pretty distinct. It's just he's trying to navigate the border.
- [31:39]
Joanna Robinson
What we learn inside of the bereavement process is that he has, I think it's 12 quarters. Right. And so he has been severed for three years, but he's been a Lumen employee for nine years.
- [31:52]
Rob Mahoney
Yep.
- [31:52]
Joanna Robinson
So there's six years. And we've talked about this before. There's six years that Irving was there that he wasn't severed. We know that he's got this trunk full of sort of information on other severed people. So yeah, he, he. It seems like he severed himself voluntarily in order to try to infiltrate MDR or this or stuff, experiment with the sleep deprivation thing. Because yeah, he does know some things about the procedure and maybe how to try to get around it to try to get to that elevator down that hallway if he can.
- [32:23]
Rob Mahoney
He's not trying to burn notes into his retinas, you know, he's a little further along in the.
- [32:28]
Joanna Robinson
In the process, he knows a bit more.
- [32:30]
Rob Mahoney
Let me ask you this, Joe, while we're on the Irving beat. The watermelon visage of Irving is horrifying. It did give me like Night King vibes for some reason, but obviously juicier. Like there's something about the way he's carved into that fruit that reads as the Night King to me.
- [32:48]
Joanna Robinson
A real juicy Night King situation.
- [32:50]
Rob Mahoney
That's the last thing you want your Night King to be. But do you yourself have a fruit of choice that you know when you do pass on from this mortal coil, how would you like to be carved and into what fruit?
- [33:02]
Joanna Robinson
Rob, thank you so much for asking me. I think I'm gonna stick. I'm gonna be like wildly predictable and I gotta stick with the pineapple. I think it has to be.
- [33:08]
Rob Mahoney
It's a great one.
- [33:09]
Joanna Robinson
I think. I think it would make a great canvas for carving in terms of like the shadows and texture you could get using the, you know, the outer skin and the inner flesh. All of this sounds. Rob. Rob, what kind of fruit would you like your visit carved upon, do you.
- [33:26]
Rob Mahoney
Think if you put like here at.
- [33:27]
Joanna Robinson
Spirit Spotify Core memorialize you?
- [33:31]
Rob Mahoney
Do you think if you put like a hair straightener to the strands, to the greenery at the top of the pineapple, could you get it to curve down as hair? Is that a thing that is within the power of the pineapple?
- [33:43]
Joanna Robinson
Well, I don't think it's a hair straightener. I think what you have to do is you have to sever the stem, take the individual sort of things off and then like reattach them in a hair, like setting.
- [33:53]
Rob Mahoney
Sounds wonderful. I think it would turn out beautifully. I think you're on the right track where it's got to be something hearty, clearly something big enough to make a head out of. And I want to reclaim a fruit that I feel like just gets a lot of flack for no reason. And that's my beloved honeydew. So shout out to the honeydew, which I think would make for a great carving fruit and I think would display my head particularly well.
- [34:17]
Joanna Robinson
I actually do think a honeydew suits your head. Thank you. It's a disgusting fruit, but I think I understand.
- [34:23]
Rob Mahoney
I take back the thank you then.
- [34:28]
Helena Egan
This episode is brought to you by Marvel Television's Born Again. Charlie Cox returns as vigilante lawyer Matt Murdock and Vincent D'Onofrio as former mob boss Wilson Fisk. The darker side of Matt Murdock is revealed when he gains a new perspective on his role as the Daredevil and faces an internal struggle between justice and revenge. The devil's work is never done. Don't miss the two episode premiere of Daredevil, Born Again on March 4th, only on Disney.
- [34:58]
Rob Mahoney
Oh, sheet.
- [34:59]
Joanna Robinson
Honey, chill. It's just laundry.
- [35:01]
Rob Mahoney
Not that I'm talking about these Arm and hammer power sheets. All the power of arm and hammer laundry detergent in a convenient tossable sheet. Oh, sheet. That's what I'm saying. And arm and hammer power sheets deliver.
- [35:14]
Joanna Robinson
An effective clean at a great price. Think of all the laundry we'll do.
- [35:18]
Rob Mahoney
And all the money we'll save. Oh sheet arm and hammer.
- [35:23]
Joanna Robinson
More power to you.
- [35:26]
Helena Egan
With President's day savings at the Home Depot, you can get up to 35% off select appliances like LG. Plus save up to an extra $450 on select appliances. And with customizable kitchen packages, we make it easy to shop and swap for the features you want like the three door French door refrigerator with slow melting round craft ice. Shop President's day savings and get up to 35% off select appliances like LG. America's most reliable line of appliances, the Home Depot how doers get more done America's most reliable line of appliances per independent study. See store online for details. Minimum purchase required.
- [35:56]
Joanna Robinson
The Wreck of the Edmund Fitzgerald by Gordon Lightfoot, which is we must talk about it that the dentist question mark is whistling at the opening of this episode. I want to take you on a journey that I went through with this. With this particular.
- [36:09]
Rob Mahoney
Please.
- [36:10]
Joanna Robinson
I heard the whistling. I was like, I know that fucking song. Song. But I was. I can't remember if I was watching the screeners with captions or not or I can't remember, but I was just sort of like, how am I going to figure out what this is? Yeah, I was like, I know it. I can't. Shazam this. There's no lyrics for me to Google, but I know this tune. God damn it. And then I was watching it again with a friend of mine and she was like, is that the wreck of the Edmund Fitzgerald? And I was like, what you just what a problem. And then we were watching the second time with the captions on and it says in the caption like continues to whistle like the wreck of the un fit. And I was like, oh, the answer was there all along. I really thought I was gonna have to do some major detective work on this. The Wreck of the Edmond Fitzgerald by Gordon Lightfoot.
- [36:56]
Rob Mahoney
Yeah, there is something to the Gordon Lightfoot element. There's a lot of things around the edges of Severance that are like, vaguely Canadian happening. And I don't know what to make of that other than the fact that they shoot some of the show in New York. And it might be as simple as that for geographic purposes sometimes. But I'm just going to say I am flagging that it's a Canadian artist, a side shipwreck.
- [37:18]
Joanna Robinson
And there's a line in this part that he's whistling about Lake Superior. Quote, never gives up her dead. Yeah, we got a couple emails about this this one from Mikhail S. Says, could Mark's quest, the underworld For Gemma slash Ms. Casey be as doomed as Orpheus is looming? The Lake Superior here too determined to maintain its grip on the dead it has swallowed for everyone for anyone to ever really get them back. A depressing thought, much like the song, but it doesn't. But it does seem like a pointed musical choice. I mean, obviously it's a. It could not be a more pointed musical choice than. Than picking this weird podcast moment on the official pod. And I think this is the last official pod reference I. I have to make today. Adam Scott, before they sort of got into it, he always says, we're gonna. We're gonna dive into this episode. Episode. He loves. He loves a deep dive. He loves that. Who doesn't know if it's like, you know, a nod to Jason and Mal or whatever, but he loves. He loves the phrase a deep dive and. But he really emphasized it this week in a really odd way to my ears.
- [38:23]
Rob Mahoney
Can. Can you recreate what he did?
- [38:26]
Joanna Robinson
The quote is, we're gonna. He's like, we're gonna dive into the episode. Were going deep. I don't know. It was just like. Honestly, I should have clipped it for you to listen to. It was the Internet. Because he says something similar. Some other podcasts. Okay, now that I explained it to you, it really does sound like I'm grasping it at straws, but.
- [38:46]
Rob Mahoney
Or it sounds like he really is a big bingehead. You know, it's one of the two.
- [38:50]
Joanna Robinson
I just felt like maybe he was like coding something about. There's a lot of water based imagery inside of Lumen. Anyway, what do you think?
- [39:00]
Rob Mahoney
I love that this is the straw that you grasped at, but this is why you're you. This is why you're the best, Joe. No stone unturned, no intonation uninterrogated.
- [39:10]
Joanna Robinson
I don't know that I'm the best, but. Lumen dentist. What do you make of a Lumen dentist going down the elevator with, I.
- [39:20]
Rob Mahoney
Mean, no fucking clue. Dentist. Seems like a generous interpretation of what's going on there. But some kind of surgeon, it seems.
- [39:27]
Joanna Robinson
Was that not. Were those not dental tools?
- [39:29]
Rob Mahoney
I think they were tools to fiddle with something. Is it something in a brain? Is it something in a mouth? Is it something in the human body? Otherwise we're gonna have to consult the doctors on the pit for that. To me, I think the takeaway for me was less, who is this guy and what is his medical profession? Although I am interested in that and more O and D. Clearly has a wide array of fabricating responsibilities beyond the goofy paintings and the pictograms. And we've only begun to scratch the surface of that that department is responsible for.
- [40:00]
Joanna Robinson
It was like, was it like hand sanitizer? Like large bottles of hand sanitizer? Is that what it like green gel of some kind?
- [40:07]
Rob Mahoney
Some kind of sanitizing gel? But yeah, there's a lot going on there and a lot going on there that is quite mysterious as well.
- [40:13]
Joanna Robinson
The, the, the tools didn't read to me as like your classic tray of torture device.
- [40:21]
Rob Mahoney
Oh, no. I thought like they were like brain chip tools to me. That's what it looked like to me.
- [40:26]
Joanna Robinson
Oh, what do you know about brain chips?
- [40:29]
Rob Mahoney
You know, I have a lot of experience. I do a lot of like backdoor in home surgery, you know, just like kidney removals and whatnot. And I will say that looks like a classic set of brain chip tools.
- [40:40]
Joanna Robinson
Okay. Pineapple. Poppingmail.com if you are no Wiley's Dr. Robbie and you have other ideas of what those tools might do, what he was wearing something that was slightly giving dentists to me, this sort of like white short sleeved uniform esque situation.
- [40:57]
Rob Mahoney
Yeah.
- [40:57]
Joanna Robinson
Also dentists because of Marathon Man. Why don't make it a triple feature. Miller's Crossing the substance in Marathon Man. Because of Marathon man, dentists and torture always sort of like go hand in hand for me.
- [41:10]
Rob Mahoney
I was detecting some dentist trauma in you making this very quick association.
- [41:14]
Joanna Robinson
I mean, my dentist told me I have great dental hygiene, so I like going to the dentist. You may not be. I'm, I'm still skeptical of your, of your brain chip meddling expertise, but we do know that you have NBA expertise.
- [41:30]
Rob Mahoney
Oh, okay.
- [41:30]
Joanna Robinson
So we have a question for you from our listener, Rami. He says Ben Stiller, famously a diehard basketball fan. There's absolutely no way the quote, no Malice palace sign is not a reference to malice at the palace where the NBA players, quote, fought back and were then severely punished. Can you explain this reference to me and also our listeners?
- [41:49]
Rob Mahoney
Yeah, look, I think the reason Malice palace works in both cases is because it rhymes. But the malice at the palace in NBA terms for the uninitiated, was an event in 2004 at a game between the Pistons and the Pacers. Ron Artest, a somewhat volatile player for the Pacers, was laying on a, on the scorer's table as the refs were like adjudicating some bullshit that had happened on the court. And a fan threw a cup, a beverage of some kind. I think it was a beer and it hit him on the table like. The fans grew restless. He threw it. It hit him. Ron Artest, now. Actually, I was going to say now. Metta World Peace, but he's gone through 50 different name changes since then. My all due respect to Meta. Jumped up off the table, stormed into the stands, started punching this guy. Teammates started coming in after him also just punching and grabbing random fans and all out like melee happened on the court.
- [42:42]
Joanna Robinson
Oh, my God.
- [42:43]
Rob Mahoney
Jermaine O'Neal. 1. Another player for the Pacers wound up so far it looked like he might end a man's life, but mercifully slipped on the court and pulled back just slightly, enough that no serious contact was made. At least not enough to end that guy's life. Long story short, lots of players got suspended. It was like a black eye on the NBA for a very long time. The commissioner of the league threw the book at these players, understandably so, for jumping into the stands and beating on paying customers. But also, no one really came out of it looking great. You know, it's not a. Not a good situation for literally anyone involved. Don't throw beverages or food items at professional athletes. If you're a professional athlete, maybe don't punch people who throw things at you.
- [43:26]
Joanna Robinson
All right, so on the one hand, just fun because it rhymes.
- [43:30]
Rob Mahoney
Yep.
- [43:30]
Joanna Robinson
But also maybe just sort of an encapsulation of a failed uprising. An ill advised uprising.
- [43:37]
Rob Mahoney
Uprising seems strong and generous for what happened at the malice of the palace. And look, I have time to explore that particular event from all angles, but I do not think it was an uprising.
- [43:48]
Joanna Robinson
Okay, great. Let's talk about burving.
- [43:52]
Rob Mahoney
Everybody's talking about it.
- [43:54]
Joanna Robinson
Everybody's talking about burbing. So we've already talked about the funeral. We've already talked about the phone call. Let's talk about just in case folks did not do a complete rewatch of season one, I had a lot of people ask me this. They're like, who do you think is going to be playing Fields? The good news is who's. Who's Bert's husband?
- [44:13]
Rob Mahoney
Yeah.
- [44:13]
Joanna Robinson
Uh, we've been invited to dinner. We've been asked to bring an expensive bottle of red wine. Um, you know, we're, we're going to meet Fields. We already know who's playing Fields, and we're so lucky. It's John Noble.
- [44:26]
Rob Mahoney
Oh, come on.
- [44:27]
Joanna Robinson
Who? A lot of people know from Fringe or a lot of people know from Lord of the Rings. He plays Denethor, the steward of Gondor. So is he.
- [44:37]
Rob Mahoney
Is he going to mash a cherry tomato in one of these scenes.
- [44:41]
Joanna Robinson
That's really all cherry tomatoes at dinner.
- [44:44]
Rob Mahoney
How could you not do it?
- [44:47]
Joanna Robinson
I don't know if they have. If they have the restraint to avoid that. But, yeah, cherry tomatoes could be on the menu. I'm really excited for this. I'm thrilled. We're gonna go. I assume we're going into the Burt Fields home for dinner.
- [45:01]
Rob Mahoney
Oh, yeah. And hopefully serenaded by Pippin, you know, or is that Mary? God, I always get married.
- [45:07]
Joanna Robinson
No, it's. No, it's Pippin.
- [45:08]
Rob Mahoney
Okay.
- [45:09]
Joanna Robinson
It's Billy Boyd himself. If you were told to bring an expensive bottle of red wine.
- [45:16]
Rob Mahoney
Yeah.
- [45:17]
Joanna Robinson
To a dinner. Rob.
- [45:18]
Rob Mahoney
Yes.
- [45:19]
Joanna Robinson
How expensive is that bottle of wine?
- [45:21]
Rob Mahoney
Depends on who asks you.
- [45:23]
Joanna Robinson
Okay.
- [45:23]
Rob Mahoney
I think you got.
- [45:24]
Joanna Robinson
What if I ask you, I say, rob, come to dinner. Bring an expensive bottle of red wine.
- [45:30]
Rob Mahoney
See, you would. You would never do that.
- [45:31]
Joanna Robinson
I wouldn't.
- [45:32]
Rob Mahoney
This is. This is the cat. I feel like if someone tells you to bring an expensive bottle of wine, it's either one, a joke or two, the thing you need to take very, very seriously.
- [45:41]
Joanna Robinson
Yeah.
- [45:41]
Rob Mahoney
So in this case, it reads more as a bit of a. Bit of a wink. And so I think you can get away with just, like, a nice enough bottle.
- [45:48]
Joanna Robinson
Oh, God. I thought he was like. Really?
- [45:50]
Rob Mahoney
You thought he was deathly serious about this?
- [45:52]
Joanna Robinson
Yeah, I did. I did.
- [45:53]
Rob Mahoney
So what. What would.
- [45:55]
Joanna Robinson
Says everything with a little twinkle.
- [45:56]
Rob Mahoney
Yes. Under these circumstances. Look, also, mysteries need to be unraveled. You're trying to at least get something from this person, whether it's personal, whether it's business. Like, I think we're all trying to figure that out for birthing, but everybody's talking about it, so why not splurge a little bit?
- [46:14]
Joanna Robinson
Yeah.
- [46:14]
Rob Mahoney
And relative. Relative to a lumen salary, I think. I think he could spring for a. For a $40 bottle of wine.
- [46:23]
Joanna Robinson
Okay.
- [46:23]
Rob Mahoney
40 to $50 bottle of wine.
- [46:25]
Joanna Robinson
I was gonna say 50.
- [46:26]
Rob Mahoney
I think that's well within range.
- [46:28]
Joanna Robinson
Like, I would buy a more expensive bottle of wine if someone didn't ask me and I wanted to impress them.
- [46:33]
Rob Mahoney
Sure.
- [46:33]
Joanna Robinson
But if they ask me and I'm like, no matter who asks me, I'm a little pissed that they felt like they needed to articulate that.
- [46:39]
Rob Mahoney
So.
- [46:39]
Joanna Robinson
So I'm definitely capping it at 50. 50 is as high as I'm going on.
- [46:43]
Rob Mahoney
If someone asks you to bring an expensive bottle of wine, bring, like, fucking barefoot or whatever, you know, like, they deserve it at that point.
- [46:49]
Joanna Robinson
Exactly. All right. You talked a bit about the Dylan's eulogy. But I did want to, like, point out one line that caught my eye. Dylan used the phrase, suck my own fuck.
- [47:05]
Rob Mahoney
Yeah. Okay.
- [47:05]
Joanna Robinson
And I. I would like to play a clip for you now, please.
- [47:09]
Rob Mahoney
I already know what it is. You can go suck a fuck. Oh, please. Tell me, Elizabeth, how exactly does one suck a fuck?
- [47:15]
Joanna Robinson
How does one suck a fuck?
- [47:19]
Rob Mahoney
I literally said this into my living room as soon as it came out of Dylan's mouth. Like, how can you, if you are as millennial, coded as. At least I am, you classify yourself as millennial. Joe, how can you not reach for this place immediately?
- [47:32]
Joanna Robinson
Here's the deal, Rob. That's not true of every millennial. And I just want to say this. Yesterday, I had the privilege of recording with Bill Simmons, Mali Rubin. And Bill was like, Joanna Rob, our most unlikely podcasting duo on the network.
- [47:45]
Rob Mahoney
Wow.
- [47:46]
Joanna Robinson
And I was like, why? And his explanation was only complimentary to you about how he thought you were. When. When they hired you, he thought you were just a basketball guy, and he didn't know you had this sort of, like, pop culture side to you. But I was just like. Like, there are references that you. And, like, not that we're alone in the world in having Donnie Darko references, but I was just like, I knew immediately that you would know that that is a Donnie Darko reference.
- [48:12]
Rob Mahoney
It simply has to be.
- [48:13]
Joanna Robinson
It has to be.
- [48:14]
Rob Mahoney
And also, the funny thing about Bill saying that is he's the person who paired us together in the first place. And so he saw some weird alchemy somewhere that suggested that we should do this together.
- [48:24]
Joanna Robinson
That's why he's the Podfather. Okay. Here's a wild theory that's running around burning up. Reddit Rigabe, basement dweller that she is, is wearing these earrings that the camera sort of focuses on a bit.
- [48:42]
Rob Mahoney
Okay.
- [48:43]
Joanna Robinson
And they are the exact. I think, exact same earrings that Helena Egan wore when we met her at the end of season one.
- [48:52]
Rob Mahoney
Wow.
- [48:52]
Joanna Robinson
Sort of gala situation. And so the question is, are they some sort of, like, Lumen issued, you know, something? Be it like a. Here's your gold watch. I was about to say, like, earrings, or are they a device of some kind? So there is. You know, when I. When I watched this episode a second time with a friend of mine, her theory, which had never really occurred to me, she thinks the whole Regabi thing is still Lumen.
- [49:19]
Rob Mahoney
That Regabi is, like, false flag in it, right?
- [49:22]
Joanna Robinson
Pretending this whole, you know, reintegration thing. But she's still actually working for Lumen.
- [49:28]
Rob Mahoney
Interesting.
- [49:29]
Joanna Robinson
I'm not all in on that. Yeah, but to your point, I love to just entertain every idea and the matching earrings is very odd to me. So what do you think about that?
- [49:41]
Rob Mahoney
Could I take this crazy theory one level deeper, please?
- [49:45]
Joanna Robinson
Always down to the snow fortress level.
- [49:48]
Rob Mahoney
Perhaps no one ever needs to go to the snow fortress level of anything anymore after last week. What if they are in fact, not her own earrings? I guess my question is, I did not clock these earrings, depending on when they appear in the episode. Could they in fact be earrings that she dug out of Gemma's stuff and is wearing to spark the reaction in Mark that she says she's trying to do by kind of like using some of her physical things?
- [50:12]
Joanna Robinson
Oh, a real Cobell stealing the candle move from last season.
- [50:15]
Rob Mahoney
Exactly. And in doing so, suggests something about maybe what Gemma was really up to.
- [50:20]
Joanna Robinson
Interesting. We're on Earring Watch. Something I did not know that I was gonna say here in 2025.
- [50:27]
Rob Mahoney
It's also been huge on. I just started watching Paradise. Are you watching Paradise, Joe?
- [50:31]
Joanna Robinson
No. We got a lot of emails from people wanting us to cover paradise. And Chris. I was asking C.R. i was like, sierra, do I have to watch Paradise? And he was like, Chris is basically like, it would amuse me if you watched Paradise.
- [50:43]
Rob Mahoney
I had flagged it because I love Sterling K. Yeah, of course. And so I had flagged him when we were looking at stuff to cover. And I'm glad, in retrospect, that we did not because it does not stand up to that level of scrutiny. But it is very fun and very goofy and very surprising at times. Also very heavy in earring related subplots. So earrings having a huge moment apparently in mystery box shows.
- [51:04]
Joanna Robinson
Okay. On yellow jackets as well. Interesting, Interesting. Okay. We got a bunch of emails about inspirations for Keir Egan of various sort of, like, figures in our American industry culture that I thought it was worth talking about. Brady wrote in to talk about W.K. kellogg. We actually got several emails about. About the founder of. Of Kellogg over the. Over the years. Over the years, over the weeks of this podcast, I. Everything I know about W.K. kellogg, I learned from the film the Road to Wellville starring Anthony Hopkins, as one does. Yeah, W.K. kellogg. One of the more perturbing films I've ever seen in my life, because it's about sort of early wellness culture in America when we knew nothing and were doing absolutely banana stuff in the name of wellness. We still are.
- [51:59]
Rob Mahoney
But I was about to say we, you know, we haven't really come that. That Long away. Really.
- [52:04]
Joanna Robinson
Wait. Wait till you see White Lotus Season 3. But this is what Brady wrote. He was like W.K. kellogg, of course, invented cornflakes to curb sexual desire, ran his own sanitarium where patients would dance on the rooftops and lead a. And led a hugely successful campaign to normalize circumcision in the U.S. talk about severance. Michigan is home to Henry Ford as well. Another influence on the fictional Cure, no doubt. Indeed, when the painting of Cure overlooking lakes on a cliffside is shown, the land below resembles a mitten. I know the show is set in a made up stage state, but where this setting pulls its real life influence seems intentional. So we've got Henry Ford.
- [52:42]
Rob Mahoney
Yep.
- [52:43]
Joanna Robinson
W.K. kellogg.
- [52:44]
Rob Mahoney
Yep.
- [52:45]
Joanna Robinson
And then Fiona wrote in to talk about Joseph Smith and Mormonism, of course.
- [52:49]
Rob Mahoney
I mean that one is also right there.
- [52:51]
Joanna Robinson
The main point that she was making, the one that really hit for me is the. The idea of taming tempers in a cave in the woods.
- [52:59]
Rob Mahoney
Yeah.
- [52:59]
Joanna Robinson
This lore that we learn and Joseph Smith. And the idea of Joseph Smith finding golden plates in the woods and using these special peepstone glasses in order to read it, stuff like that. And the way that the Joseph Smith mythology changed to sort of suit the needs of the Mormon Church, as does this like here Egan story.
- [53:22]
Rob Mahoney
Organized religions would never do such a thing. They would never subtly alter their texts over time through convenient like lapses in translation perhaps, or anything related to modern modernization to make them more palatable. They would never do such a thing.
- [53:34]
Joanna Robinson
And you're right, and you're right. And you know, you know that as well as I think you know brain chip devices when you see one. Okay. I've just had a couple other sort of pineapple and Greek mythology based things to get to, but I wanted to ask, like, what other scenes do you want to talk about or, or character stuff do you want to talk about in this episode?
- [53:55]
Rob Mahoney
I would like to take us back to Milchick's first debrief with the MDR team as he is explaining, as we mentioned, the answers to their very specific and individual questions. But also I think putting such a nice and soft spin on this idea of Helena Egan infiltrating Heli's body to be a part of the team and in the most benevolent way possible, which we know is always Swedish. Yes, the Glock Schupen.
- [54:20]
Joanna Robinson
Yeah.
- [54:21]
Rob Mahoney
Which is just a marvelous introduction.
- [54:23]
Joanna Robinson
I don't know how you pronounce that, by the way.
- [54:24]
Rob Mahoney
How do you actually pronounce it? Do we know.
- [54:26]
Joanna Robinson
Oh, I'm not Swedish. And I'm not going to try, but I do know that everyone who is Swedish said what when they heard that pronunciation of it.
- [54:36]
Rob Mahoney
I will say Dylan's ear, though, very tuned because he. He brings it back pretty quickly to throw it back in Milchick's face. And yeah, I would say a similar enough pronunciation for being caught off guard with some random Swedish at like 8:30 in the morning. So shout out to Dylan.
- [54:52]
Joanna Robinson
Tramell Tillman's delivery of that. Of everything.
- [54:57]
Rob Mahoney
He's wonderful.
- [54:58]
Joanna Robinson
Is wonderful. But yeah, that was. That was like. What I really loved about that is because I think the joke you made in the first episode this season about Helena posing as Heli was Undercover Boss, which was like, turned out to be true.
- [55:12]
Rob Mahoney
It's literally canon. Joe.
- [55:14]
Joanna Robinson
I love that this is like classy Swedish Undercover Boss. The gruk Schupen, which, again, if you're Swedish, pineapplebobbingmail.com I know that's not how you pronounce it.
- [55:26]
Rob Mahoney
And I would say, true to Undercover Boss, Helena wants no part of going back amongst the people ever again. Like, she is hit it and quit it. She's out of there. She got what she needed, does not have any interest in returning to the severed floor, and basically has to be dragged into doing it.
- [55:41]
Joanna Robinson
No, I mean, actually, that's not true. I think she's eager to go down herself, but she doesn't.
- [55:46]
Rob Mahoney
Oh, but not as Helen. Yes, yes, yes. That is.
- [55:48]
Joanna Robinson
She's like, I'll just do it again. I'll just. I'll just go down by my. I'll pretend again.
- [55:52]
Rob Mahoney
Yes.
- [55:52]
Joanna Robinson
Maybe have sex with Mark again. That would be nice.
- [55:55]
Rob Mahoney
Can you imagine if she did the double deception and Mark fell for it? Like, there's no coming back from that. Mark, if you fell for that, it's over. It's all. It's already pretty bleak.
- [56:04]
Joanna Robinson
Yeah. I think. I think she's. She would love to go back down and hang out. She. She loved doing that. And so when she's like, they're animals, like, that's. That's not how she actually feels. She was like. What she really feels is I felt alive for the first time in my cold, cold existence, you know, so it is very true.
- [56:22]
Rob Mahoney
And I do appreciate, as we are getting all these answers, as we're getting all these revelations within this episode, and there are many, including introducing the idea of Heli back to the MDR team. We still do have just like the bomb in the back pocket of the fact that Heli does not know that Helena and Mark had sex on the ordbow. And for Milchick to throw it in Mark's face so clearly and so maliciously as he so often does. Like, the man knows how to wear a turtleneck, and he knows how to deliver, like, a very frightening line of dialogue. And.
- [56:51]
Joanna Robinson
And he knows how to stand way too close.
- [56:54]
Rob Mahoney
Incredible. Like, that's not an elevator for two people. And frankly, the question of. Can I come in? The answer is a hard no.
- [57:00]
Joanna Robinson
You're gonna.
- [57:01]
Rob Mahoney
You're gonna have to wait for the next one.
- [57:02]
Joanna Robinson
I'll meet you on the outside.
- [57:04]
Rob Mahoney
Yeah, for sure. Come on out.
- [57:06]
Joanna Robinson
Yeah. Are you ready for more pineapple lore? It just goes deeper.
- [57:11]
Rob Mahoney
I thought you would never ask.
- [57:12]
Joanna Robinson
Okay, great. Okay. So what do we have so far? We have. It's. It's for, like, polyamory. Group sex, right?
- [57:19]
Rob Mahoney
Yeah.
- [57:19]
Joanna Robinson
Is something we learned about pineapple, apparently so. Mark Margita said something from the Smithsonian library and archives about. Titled the Prickly Meetings of the Pineapple.
- [57:31]
Rob Mahoney
Very good.
- [57:32]
Joanna Robinson
During the 18th century, the pineapple was established as a symbol of hospitality with its prickly, tufted shape, incorporated in gate posts, door entryways and finials, and in silverware and ceramics. The motif continues prevalent in Christmas decorations in Williamsburg today. Both pride of place on the lavish dining tables of the enslavers of North America. The pineapple continues its association with slavery. George Washington, who first encountered the pineapple at the plantations of Barbados, had them imported from the West Indies, a port in the triangular trade of enslaved Africans. So luxury Christmas, slavery.
- [58:10]
Rob Mahoney
I mean, that's the severance mood board.
- [58:12]
Joanna Robinson
As far as I can trifecta, baby. That's really the whole thing right there.
- [58:15]
Rob Mahoney
And there's also, I would say, the sort of vague gesture away from office life towards something exotic and tropical. Right. Like every illusion we get, you know, to. To Irving's Audi going on a cruise, to the music that's playing after the funeral, to the existence of these fruits and, like, the way that they are sort of held over people's heads as something to covet and want? Like, it is very like longing out of your cubicle for the vacation that you can never have. And this is the closest that they can get to it. And it is very, very sad.
- [58:45]
Joanna Robinson
Joe, do you think that they think the outside is just like sort of this tropical paradise, when, in fact, it's the bleak midwinter always outside of Lumen.
- [58:54]
Rob Mahoney
They would be so disappointed to find out what the real world is actually like, including the Midwest winter, which is no joke.
- [59:01]
Joanna Robinson
I also. I also love that, you know, when Mark talks About the fact that he got all wet falling like that, that they told him that they had a ropes course. It seems like on their, on their.
- [59:11]
Rob Mahoney
Orpo, which like plays better than a near drowning.
- [59:15]
Joanna Robinson
It does. It's not outside the realm of what they set up. There were tents, marshmallows. I could see day two being a ropes course, but I guess they didn't mention. Also we hauled animatronic versions of you out into the wilderness to point you towards a cave.
- [59:31]
Rob Mahoney
The other thing about the animatronics that people did point out was that the animatronic and we say this theoretically, we assume it's an animatronic at this point. Helly has a bit of like an askew head situation, like evocative of when she tried to hang herself. So if that is true, look, fucked up work by OND or whoever came up with the animatronics. Like that's just nasty business and uncalled for. But also if I think it speaks to not everyone knowing and maybe where the circle of trust is. As far as Helena's infiltration, like, clearly Milchick knew. Some people in the control room knew. But this felt like Drummond obviously. But this felt like a pretty tight circle of people who understood that that was Helena on the severed floor.
- [60:15]
Joanna Robinson
Real haunting of Hill House vibe with a broke neck lady. But I think also I, I like that as sort of like an illusion because yeah, she's awkwardly sort of like bent over in a way that the other ones aren't.
- [60:27]
Rob Mahoney
Yeah.
- [60:29]
Joanna Robinson
But I don't know that like that necessarily means that O and D, who of course made it because they, as we found out this week, make literally everything. I don't know that we're meant to then infer that they know everything that happened die. Last but not least, Tim wrote in about. On. On the Greek Mythology front team. Tim wrote in about the sort of maze like quality of the hallways reminding him of the story of like the Minotaur in Greek mythology. This idea of the. Of a monster at the center of a maze. I think what was so effective about that running sequence at the beginning of the season. As sort of annoyed as Adam Scott seems to have been to have filmed it over the course of several months.
- [61:08]
Rob Mahoney
Can you blame him?
- [61:11]
Joanna Robinson
Really did establish for us, like every time we're down there, it now feels more claustrophobic than it ever did before. For me just knowing how sort of Warren like it is down there. I mean we walked with them through there before we knew that there were like a lot of twists and turns and blank white hallways. But something about the length of that running sequence just really, you know, sets the world for us when we're down there in the. In the underground. So.
- [61:36]
Rob Mahoney
And a great bit of filmmaking too. Cause if you've seen any of the visual effects, like previs shots of this show, it's a pretty limited space of hallway that they're actually working with. And yet they make it feel infinite. And I think one of the benefits of having these sorts of drab office interiors is you can do wonders to stretch them out, to elongate them, to. To push them like a little bit past the point of absurdity. And I, I am always so interested by like the office satire elements of this show and ultimately how they are tying into the themes and they're tying into this loneliness, like how they are feel. Making characters feel more isolated and maybe never more, never more pointedly than when someone's walking down a long ass white bleak hallway with not a person in sight, not a door in sight, no clear way to understand even where they're going.
- [62:21]
Joanna Robinson
We love a long white hallway, especially on an Apple property. And just to recap, Rob Mahoney loves an office satire. Hates the office that has been.
- [62:33]
Rob Mahoney
Also, I will say the bit about Milchick not properly applying his paper clips to his reports. A little too office space for me.
- [62:42]
Joanna Robinson
A little TPS report.
- [62:43]
Rob Mahoney
A little TPS report. Like I thought. I thought we're getting maybe a little too cute with that part of it.
- [62:49]
Joanna Robinson
Anything else you want to say about this episode?
- [62:51]
Rob Mahoney
Just to return to one of our recurring bits as listeners have been emailing us about what they would sever from their own lives. Joyce emailed us to say that she would sever a great candidate that many people ended up echoing. Commuting. Yes, very relatable, very understandable. And she noted that at least for any would get to listen to some Ringer pods as they are commuting from place to place, which I'm certainly thankful of. But I'm also starting to detect a bit of a theme, Joe, between the commuting, the exercise, people flying, people doing their chores. Like these are all things that people are wanting to sever out of their lives and they're also time that they spend with us. So I'm starting to wonder, are we severance?
- [63:31]
Joanna Robinson
I'm starting to take it personally. Are we so easily severable from your lives, dear listeners?
- [63:36]
Rob Mahoney
But also are we, you know, the little bit of sugar that's making the corporate life go down more smoothly? Like is that our role in the universe.
- [63:45]
Joanna Robinson
How do you feel about that? Does it feel like your. Your face has been imprinted on a marshmallow?
- [63:51]
Rob Mahoney
I wish. I wish I was at that level of authority where I would be. But no, I. I am but the marshmallow. I am but the one being imprinted on and fed to the masses to make them get through their little Orbo experience.
- [64:03]
Joanna Robinson
All right, well, this has been another marshmallow episode from us. Your lures to get through your corporate day. Thanks so much to Donnie Beacham for his work on this episode. Thanks to Justin Sales for his work on the feed. Thanks to John Richter for helping helping me find my way into the void. Will I. No, I'll be in the void, I think, for the rest of the season because I'm down here for the. So just get used to.
- [64:26]
Rob Mahoney
Yeah.
- [64:26]
Joanna Robinson
Get comfortable and we'll see you next time. Bye.