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- [00:00]
Joe
This episode of the Prestige TV podcast is brought to you by Coffee Mate. Coffee Mate has been searching the globe for flavors that pair perfectly with coffee. So when they heard that the new season of HBO's the White Lotus was set in Thailand, they were inspired to brew up two new flavors, Thai Iced Coffee and Pina Colada flavored Creamers. They're available for a short time only, so for the love of coffee, go try them now.
- [00:29]
Jordan Ritter Khan
When you hear the word Seattle Supersonics, what comes to mind? Maybe it's Shawn Kemp the Rain man or Gary Payton the glove. Or maybe an image of a tall and skinny 19 year old rookie Kevin Durant. For fans in Seattle, it's something else. It's tragedy. It's theft. An iconic team with an incredible fan base that packed its bags and shipped off for Oklahoma City. From Spotify and the Ringer, I'm Jordan Ritter Khan and in my podcast Sonic Boom, I talk to players, politicians, owners and fans about how Seattle lost the Sonics. You can listen to it on the Book of basketball feed beginning March 13th on Spotify or wherever you get your podcasts.
- [01:12]
Rob Mahoney
This episode is brought to you by Emirates we all love the thought of a vacation in Europe, but have you ever thought about looking a little further? Like Dubai, a city everyone talks about, has absolutely everything you could want from a vacation destination. From world class hotels, record breaking skyscrapers and epic desert adventures to museums that showcase the future, not just the past. Choose from 96 flights per week between the United States and Dubai. Book your flights on emirates.com today. Foreign Robinson I'm Rob Mahoney.
- [02:00]
Joe
We're here today to talk to you about severance. How excited are you to talk about severance, Rob?
- [02:07]
Rob Mahoney
I mean, flip my toboggan Joe, Come on, let's get into it.
- [02:10]
Joe
It's the end of the week. This is always a joy for me on a Friday morning to talk to you about the latest severance episode. We get up early. We do this early in the morning so we can get it out for you guys. This episode is called Sweet Vitriol, written by Adam county and Casey Perry and directed by one Mr. Benjamin Stiller. And just to remind folks who are listening to this, if you want to hear more from Rob and yours truly, we're also covering White Lotus on a weekly basis.
- [02:39]
Rob Mahoney
We certainly are.
- [02:40]
Joe
Bill Simmons, Ever heard of him? Molly Rubin and I are also covering White Lotus on Sunday nights. And then a couple days later, Rob and I do it. Next week we're headed back to the pit, so we're going to check in on our favorite doctors and all the trauma that's been happening in the week since we last checked in with them.
- [02:55]
Rob Mahoney
Very trauma heavy slate on the pit, I got to say.
- [02:58]
Joe
And we still keep getting emails about this, so I will keep reminding you that Yellowjackets is now being covered over on the House of Our feed. Molly Rubin and I are covering it. Not this week, but usually week to week on the House of Our feed. We're covering yellow jackets over there. It was a very dense week over on the Ringoverse. So that is what is going on around the various feed. Sweet vitriol, the name of this episode, Rob, is another sort of a condensed version of a name for ether. Sweet oil of vitriol is what? Diethyl ether, which we will talk about aplenty as we do this podcast.
- [03:36]
Rob Mahoney
Have you partaken, Joe? Is that a recreational activity of choice for you?
- [03:40]
Joe
Guess what? I've never huffed a single thing in my life.
- [03:42]
Rob Mahoney
I know it doesn't sound pleasant. I gotta say, with this paint thinner, no ether, I'm out.
- [03:49]
Joe
I think it's, it's, it's a no for me on huffing. If you're watching this on video, you may have noticed a lumen sort of esque box behind me. Apple sent over what is the memo that they sent me. It says senior refiner Audi gifting memo. So that is, that is what they sent over. It's a little, it's like a little fake vending machine. So if you're watching this on video, which you can do on the Ringer TV YouTube channel or on Spotify, we're going to do like a, not a full unboxing but a mini unboxing a little later in the episode. Hopefully keep it audio friendly. So if you're listening, you can also enjoy that. But that is the plan today as we talk about this episode. Rob, how many emails did we get about our friend Ms. Casey, aka Gemma, and which hand she prefers to write with?
- [04:38]
Rob Mahoney
Respectfully, a lot. Our listeners are quite diligent and this was something we mentioned that clearly stuck in a lot of people's craw was the idea that, oh, she is right handed and therefore writing left handed in the dreaded thank you card room would be a particular kind of torture, which agreed.
- [04:55]
Joe
Yeah, you're mentioning that she was writing left handed in the thank you note room. That writing left handed with a fountain pen is horrible because of the smear factor. That writing that many notes is horrible. How gibberish her handwriting looked because maybe she had some brain damage. But also a bunch of people pointing out that early in the episode we see her fill out an intake form with her right hand.
- [05:15]
Rob Mahoney
We certainly do.
- [05:16]
Joe
So not only all those other factors, but also they're forcing a righty to write as a lefty.
- [05:23]
Rob Mahoney
One thing about the thank you note room that we did not mention that I wish we had was that it's playing Baby, It's Cold Outside during that sequence, which does perfection. Wonderful.
- [05:31]
Joe
The date rapiest of all the Christmas.
- [05:34]
Rob Mahoney
I don't even remember where we are in the cycle of it. Being pushed away, recontextualized, reclaimed. Like, I've seen so many re evaluations of the song. I don't know where we are.
- [05:44]
Joe
I think we're in an embrace, sensual embrace era. With Baby, It's Cold Outside.
- [05:48]
Rob Mahoney
We certainly are.
- [05:49]
Joe
The pendulum will swing any moment now. I wanted to start. We have a lot to talk about in this episode. Even though it was like a fairly short runtime actually before. I already told you what we were gonna do, broadly speaking. Rob, though, did you like this episode of Severance?
- [06:03]
Rob Mahoney
I liked it fine.
- [06:04]
Joe
Okay.
- [06:05]
Rob Mahoney
I think given how long it had been since we last saw Harmony Cobell, I was a little underwhelmed. Yeah, we got some, I think, some interesting character beats. This is certainly an episode that's gonna change the way you think about Harmony Cobell in a couple of different key ways. And I'm not shying away from any of that. I'm not pooh poohing that. I think that stuff is really important. But it had been 35 days for us in this world since we last saw Harmony Cobell in a Severance episode. And for this to be the sort of big payoff of that, I have mixed feelings about it.
- [06:38]
Joe
Do you think so this is a short runtime. It's like a 37 minute episode. And I would say even less of that is like crucial, crucial plot information. They're still withholding a bunch of information about Harmony. So here's two alternatives. Let's say this was not my favorite episode of Severance, and that's okay. A question that I got someone like Instagram, DMed me was sort of, which is not how the way I encourage you to reach me, but like, you can.
- [07:04]
Rob Mahoney
How do you encourage people to reach you? Just chase you down on the street.
- [07:07]
Joe
Press YouTube.com okay. Pineapplebobbingmail.com yes, if you've got White Lotus thoughts. Monkeyshootoutmail.com we're still getting emails from like griefguard again@gmail.com you can.
- [07:20]
Rob Mahoney
I Respect all of them. Those are the real heads.
- [07:23]
Joe
But this is. This is a listener I kind of know. So, like, I understood why. But anyway, she was like, how many very special episodes, like, sort of premise breaking episodes is too many promise breaking episodes inside of an EP a se a short season of television. Because I would say between last week's, which we loved, and the Orpo, those are like, quite premise breaking episodes. So maybe the idea of severance in season two is like, you know, and we also had the all in Y episode and the all outie episode in the first two episodes of the season. So maybe the premise of season two was like, there is no standard operating procedure for an episode of severance.
- [08:02]
Rob Mahoney
This season certainly fits the sort of reintegrating theme of what's happening in the season right now.
- [08:08]
Joe
Not my favorite episode, really. Missing Bert and Irving. Kai.
- [08:15]
Rob Mahoney
Everybody's talking about Berving. Everybody's talking about Birvin.
- [08:20]
Joe
Two options. One is, what if we took the meatiest part of this episode and seeded it into the last few episodes that we're checking in with Harmony as she, you know, hooks up with Hamilton, her old chum, and all these other things that she encounters. Or alternatively, we have an even denser Harmony Cobell episode that is less withholding about. Like, what if we get just like a full flashback? What is the life of. What was the life of Harmony Cobell sort of as she went through, you know, child laborer to inventor of severance? Like, what was that complete arc like versus sort of the, I would say, Coyer approach that we got inside of this episode? So do you have, like, a preference between those two, or are you like, hey, it's not my job to tell someone how to run their TV series.
- [09:17]
Rob Mahoney
It is not my job. But if I were to do such a thing, Jo, I would probably lean towards parceling out the harmony elements of the story or I think, repositioning this episode within the season. And I think to do that, you'd probably have to change the way you break the whole season because you can't go like Ortbo into the Harmony story. I think that kind of cliffhanger that would be a pretty cruel sort of delay on kind of what's happening with Irving, for example. But to come off of specifically Chikai Bardo into this, you just feel the momentum of and how, like, how thrilled we were coming out of last week come screeching to a halt. Like, it feels like the show's slamming on the brakes in a way that can be contemplative in A way that I don't like. I appreciate what they're trying to do in establishing and broadening this character and making us think twice about Harmony and the things she said and the things she's done and who she is in this world. It just feels like you're introducing an element of sort of narrative inertia at a time where you want to be driving forward.
- [10:17]
Joe
And to be very clear, I agree with everything you said. And to be very clear, I love Patricia Arquette, and I am.
- [10:23]
Rob Mahoney
She's awesome in this episode.
- [10:24]
Joe
She's so good. And I'm very fascinated by Harmony Cobell. So it's not like I want less Harmony. I think we're just having questions about the when and the where and the why of it. Yeah, well.
- [10:34]
Rob Mahoney
And the longer she's gone, I think the bigger her landing has to feel. And this felt important to character. It felt important to plot and mystery in some ways, although I think less so. I have to say. Who created Severance or did someone else create severance was not a driving mystery of the show for me, or something I was even all that interested in.
- [10:53]
Joe
I agree. On the other hand, I will say, and we're gonna go back through some previous Harmony scenes and sort of like, re listen to some clips now, knowing what we know about Harmony's role. And that's interesting to me because I did have a lot of lingering questions about what was her motivation for XYZ in season one. And this helps with that a lot. And so, yes, I did not really. I just assumed it was ne. I mean, that's. I just assumed it wasn't Egan, and the fact that it wasn't Anegan and it was this woman who gets treated rather shoddily given all of that information is opens the aperture on a character in a way that I really, really like. Let's talk about some of the guest stars in this episode. So, well, I want to start with Patty Arquette. Patricia Arquette. Because reading the Reddit boards, it just reminds me that not everyone knows what a legend Patricia Arquette is.
- [11:47]
Rob Mahoney
Where are these people coming from? Who are they?
- [11:50]
Joe
They're younger than we are. So of course, she won an Oscar for Boyhood, and I would really recommend you check out that incredible project. Obviously, obviously, she's worked with Ben Stiller on Escape from Dannemora and an earlier film they did together. True Romance is sort of like my peak. Patricia Arquette, what do you want to say about Patty, Rob?
- [12:11]
Rob Mahoney
See, I'm of a slightly different generation, and I caught True Romance later. In life, but a very formative experience. Watching Patricia Arquette in that movie, I think for a lot of people, just one of those characters who is so indelible, who is so, like. I think that movie and that story just does not work without her being as perfectly charismatic and also sort of elusive as she is. And in some ways, that's what makes her work in severance, too, that, you know, she's, like, curled up on her mom's bed, breathing out of a musty breathing tube, and, like, my whole body is cringing, and yet I cannot stop watching her do everything that she's doing. She's. She's a wonderful performer, and I think the things that help her embody Cobell at this stage in her career, you can find the through lines earlier. It's like, it's all there in terms of these little threads of sort of ethereal or unsettling or like, she's just from a different place in time than the rest of us are.
- [13:04]
Joe
Yeah. And, you know, from the Arquette acting family, raised as, like, you know, a weird little hippie, is a very strange and wonderful person and a really strange and wonderful performer as Alabama in True Romance. That is, like, one of the most, like, sexually dynamic, alluring, like, characters you've ever seen in your life. And you were like, yes, I will throw my entire boring life away for this person. Like, that's the premise of that movie. And so there. There, the shot after she is. I hate that you use the word musty, but it's appropriate after the musty situation when. And we're talking about James Legro in a second, but when Hamilton comes up into the bedroom and they have the moment on the bed, there's the huffing, and then there's also a smooch that, according to the official podcast, was unscripted, but it was funny. Like, right before the smooch happened, there was just this shot. You know, she's got this, like, very severe hair, that. The hair was Patricia Arquette's idea. You know, she's older than she was when she played Alabama and True Romance, but there's just something so alluring about her. Her eyes are just, like this really compelling blue that I was just, like, I would smooch Harmony Cobell. There's just something, like, bewitching about her that I find. I don't know. And I don't know if you need that larger Arquette filmography context for that or if that works in isolation inside of this, but one of the things that I saw on The Reddit boards. That blew my mind. And I think this speaks to the wig work on this show. Is someone. Someone misidentified this character. We meet Sissy as her sister, which I understand because some people say Sissy.
- [14:47]
Rob Mahoney
Yeah.
- [14:47]
Joe
Jane Alexander, who plays Sissy, is her. That's her aunt. And she's of a completely different generation. So I'm like, how old do you think Patricia Arquette is, man? Or how youthful do you think Jane Alexander is? Anyway? Jane Alexander is.
- [15:02]
Rob Mahoney
It could be a big age gap, like older, young, sibling situation. In theory. I do think they leave it open enough for long enough for you to wonder, who are these people to each other?
- [15:11]
Joe
I mean, I was definitely wondering if Hamilton and Harmony were siblings and then they smooched so well, does that even.
- [15:18]
Rob Mahoney
Rule it out on a show like this? Who's to say?
- [15:20]
Joe
Perhaps Jane Alexander, legend of stage and screen. I, you know, has won a pile of awards. Is an absolute icon playing Sissy here. Asked, according to the official podcast, asked to have her hair cut to look like Harmony so that they could have, like, matching amazing hair. Was in a film that has been sort of like lost to time, but was really definitely a thing at the time, which is Cider House Rules, a Miramax joint, which won Michael Caine an Oscar, among other things. That is the movie where I first learned about huffing ether as a drug abuse situation.
- [16:02]
Rob Mahoney
Look at that.
- [16:03]
Joe
Michael Caine plays a doctor, and your.
- [16:05]
Rob Mahoney
Life was never the same.
- [16:06]
Joe
Enjoys huffing ether. And Jane Alexander plays a nurse in that movie. So fun little connections. Jerry Stahl, who wrote Permanent Midnight, who Ben Stiller played in the film Permanent Midnight, is one of the guys, the guy in the diner. And then last but not least, James Legro, who, to me, is the runaway star of this episode. I'm a huge James Legro fan. The original cinematic Raylan Givens also played Wade Messer on Justified, has been in a ton of things, but something that they said in the official podcast about casting him in this role is when you have not much time to establish dynamics between characters. There's a ton of history, unspoken history between these two. You cast a James Legro who, like, can just, you know, going back to the 90s, drugstore cowboy, whatever, can just give you, like, a life lived on a face kind of kind of guy. Do you know what I mean? So anything you want to say about these guest stars or our guy, Wade Messer from Justified, specifically?
- [17:20]
Rob Mahoney
I mean, first of all, Wade Messer would be huffing ether. So we're just moving one step over. But a Dramatically different characterization. I think the sort of down on their luck, Kentuckian addicts and degenerates of Justified and the criminal elements of Justified are so different from the people we see in Salt's Neck who are worn down in this decrepit, dying industry town. And to have Hampton step into that as somebody who, like, clearly is, like, trying to just soldier on and at the same time huffing ether every chance he can get, like, maintaining this sort of habitual thing that he's had since he was presumably a kid. And the way that Harmony has that element with him where, as you said, the unscripted kiss comes after judgment, really, on her part, like, how can you. How can you do this? How can you sell this stuff after everything that we went through producing it in the mill in the first place, the life that we've lived? Like, how can you participate in this thing that, like, wrecked our lives and wrecked this town? And he's simultaneously somebody who can have lived through all of that and still be huffing the ether? And I 100% believe it from Legro's performance.
- [18:25]
Joe
And I also believe that he's the guy who would stand up at the end of the episode and say, what, tame these tempers? Oh, yeah, yeah, absolutely.
- [18:33]
Rob Mahoney
But tough for us that I wish we would get a lot more of him. I don't see how, because he's going to be in Salt's Neck and he.
- [18:39]
Joe
Just gave away his truck and. Well, unless, you know, Lumen abducts him or something like that. That's true. But it sort of feels like a one and done for James Legro. But if Hampton wants to ride again, I would support that anytime. All right, Rob, what do you feel like you understand about Harmony Cabell's life after having watched this episode? What are the key things that we learned from this episode?
- [19:04]
Rob Mahoney
I think that one. We knew that her mother was not a believer in the Kir culture. And I think we're kind of led along through this episode to think that Sissy is sort of her entry point into that world and where she is working in the ethermill from a young age. She is, like, put into this pipeline with the School for Girls and eventually the Wintertide Fellowship, and we're seeing kind of all these elements of her backstory tie together. And then, of course, this idea that she, in fact, is the one who invented the Severance Procedure, or at least, like, designed it, designed the schematics that became what we know as Severance.
- [19:37]
Joe
Right.
- [19:39]
Rob Mahoney
Does that dramatically change the way I think about Ms. Cobell. I don't know. I think the fact that she grew up huffing ether fumes changes the way I think about her a little bit. And the idea of, like, why is she as off kilter as she is? Why is her language presented the way it is? And when you hear Sissy speak, I think you get a pretty good idea of how being a member of a cult can sort of infiltrate your brain and shape you on the most, like, formative verbal levels. But to be honest, I was having a hard time sort of wrestling with the idea of the reveal of this episode and how much I thought it really changed because it felt like a swerve. It felt like the kind of thing where I wanted to go back and revisit, as we're going to do today.
- [20:14]
Joe
Yeah.
- [20:15]
Rob Mahoney
And then we got an email from a listener, Carrie, who put it in terms that I hadn't quite thought about yet, which is that we had been kind of thinking about severance as a purely capitalistic idea. Right. Lumen creates this thing so they can eventually sell it or, you know, take advantage of their workers or create a whole new workforce or whatever it ends up being. And Carrie proposed the idea that, like, if Harmony was creating it as a means to basically escape the abuse that she had suffered as a child. Right. Someone who had been in this system, who had been treated very cruelly, who had now had her idea stolen from her, that seeing that idea now used for purely capitalistic reasons, probably, and used to hurt so many other people would be such a. Like a re. Traumatizing event for Harmony over and over.
- [21:02]
Joe
Again, on the one hand, galling on the other hand. And again, we'll go back through and sort of revisit these. These moments throughout the last few seasons. I kind of believe that she was still a true believer until the. What is it? The tiger ate her face sort of moment. That happens. The leopard hair face. There it is. Okay, to go back. You started with this idea of the voice, the affected accent, and something I thought that was really interesting. I've always wondered about her accent and also what John Turturro is doing. They're both doing this affected Mid Atlantic, and you mentioned Jane Alexander, Sissy in this episode. But also something that Patricia Arquette said in a truly unhinged and delightful interview on the official podcast was that this was like sort of a. Because she was born in poor circumstances, this is a sort of like. Sort of similar to Milchick. This is like a. This is how I should speak to be taken seriously by the high toned people that I work with now, this is what an upper class person sounds like. So this is what I will sound like and this is how I will change my voice to fit in that way. I think thinking about Ms. Wong's use inside of this season as sort of this like, precursor, you know, hearing Wintertide and all, this sort of stu. Like, as this precursor to the way that Lumen and the Egan family, like, you know, we already had seen the shrine in Harmony's home. We knew that she had gone to a school, an Egan school, but, you know, to see Ms. Wong on the severed floor working like child labor as an early. So, no, not a clone of Gemma, not Mark and Gemma's child, but like just part of this child labor churn that they have been probably since the dawn of time, taking advantage of. To your point, I really love this point. The idea that, like Harmony. Thinking about Harmony Cobell and Hampton as young child laborers in this factory in the ether mill.
- [23:06]
Rob Mahoney
Yeah.
- [23:07]
Joe
She says when they. When they take a good huff of the ether. She hasn't done this since she was 8. So huffing ether or inhaling it while they're working, I don't know, perhaps intentionally as a way to disassociate from the horrors of their job. Right. So to come up with this procedure that does the same thing, but just with more precision is really interesting.
- [23:33]
Rob Mahoney
Yeah. It does seem, given the ether heavy context in this episode, that Lumen's goal is to give you kind of the spoonful of sugar one way or another. And that's going to take many forms. I'm sure it's had many forms in between aether and severance. But that more than anything, after what we saw from Gemma last week and how it's kind of articulated in this episode feels like what the goal of severance is is to save, quote, unquote, save you from the pain and the anxiety of all these things, while subjecting a different version of yourself to exactly.
- [24:00]
Joe
Those things to like torture, which is what we saw with Gemma. Right. So in a. The. The eagle eyed Redditors. I mean, I know I'm talking to Freeze Frame Mahoney here. So, like, you know, we're going to.
- [24:13]
Rob Mahoney
Come back to that. There's plenty of freeze framing to be done in this episode.
- [24:16]
Joe
You know your way around a freeze frame. But previously when we were in. Or actually, I think this is like extra textual, they released a bunch of props from the Zufu Chinese restaurant set online in some article or another. And definitely the Redditors Were poring over it and there were news articles that they had written that mentioned incident at Salt's Neck. Ether spill, like ether mill ruins town, town sues, you know, yada yada, Erin Brockovich, like sort of thing. Right. And then also in one of the articles that they released as part of this sort of like prop display, there was also a crab Rangoon sign. By the way, just shout out to the Prestige TV podcast, crab spelled with a K. Can we buy it? I think we should. Can we bid Crab with a K. Crab Rangoon from the Zufu Chinese restaurant that they were creating a version of the chip for children as young as five.
- [25:11]
Rob Mahoney
Jesus.
- [25:13]
Joe
Grim.
- [25:15]
Rob Mahoney
Don't like it. And I will say, you know, last week at the tail end of the episode, we hear from Regabi when she's kind of talking to Devon about the idea of calling Cobell, that she was raised by Lumen.
- [25:26]
Joe
Raised by Lumen.
- [25:27]
Rob Mahoney
And yeah, I think we had that understanding with the school, with the Myrtle Egan School for Girls that like, clearly she's been brought up in this way of life. She seemed like a true believer, as you said, until the leopard ate her face. But this, I think changes how we think about that idea of what it means to be raised by a Lumen, specifically with the way she's sort of grieving her mom, which I don't know how you took it, Joe. I read as much grieving the mom she didn't really get to have because she's presumably going off to some sort of boarding school. She's being raised within this cult. Her mom is not a believer. I can't imagine she approved exactly of what was happening and kind of the way that Harmony's life was taking shape.
- [26:02]
Joe
And didn't come home to see her at the end of all things because she was too busy, sort of like with work and school and like wasn't allowed or whatever. But it still feels like a choice. Something in looking into ether, which is something that was a fun part of my job this week. There's a few long term effects of ether addiction. This is religious what you're saying though. One is memory loss, right? Prolonged either use leads to memory impairment, making it difficult to recall recent events or retain new information. So, you know, we're on the severance beat there. But also in terms of her mom. And this is the breathing tube we've been seeing since season one. This has been a prop. We sort of thought by the dates that it might pertain to her mom. The date that was like on the breathing tube we Saw it in the shrine in her house. We saw her look at it in the car on. On the weight assault's neck, like. So this has been. This is the answer. A side effect of prolonged exposure to ether is chronic respiratory issues. Frequent inhalation of ether results in chronic breathing problems, including coughing, shortness of breath, and respiratory infections.
- [27:16]
Rob Mahoney
So you're telling me huffing a bunch of chemicals isn't good for you?
- [27:20]
Joe
I mean, you huffing it directly or just goddamn working in an ether mill? Because, like, I have to imagine that that ether mill has been there for a while and like the whole town. Again, once again, to like, everything I know about everything in life I learned from films, and I apologize for that. Once again, to invoke Erin Brockovich or any sort of like, similar story. Like, if you think about. You were talking about this like a town destroyed by industry.
- [27:42]
Rob Mahoney
Yeah.
- [27:43]
Joe
A town destroyed by ether, like ether inhalation. That everyone there has weird chronic breathing issues or memory issues. You know, like, that's just horrifying.
- [27:53]
Rob Mahoney
And a town that is now at this point, just sort of aging into death. Right. Everyone we see is very gray bearded, white haired. Like, this is a town where to the extent that there were young people here, they have been abused and left. Right. Like they were child workers. And now they've either grown into damaged adults or they've fled as the town is further decayed. And this is an idea that we are like has been proposed within the world of severance, certainly within the world of the Innies, as a very dignified thing working in the aethermill. Right. This idea that Kir and his wife met working at the aethermill. And we saw the painting of that in season one. A formative, birving moment as they got to kind of gaze upon the aether vat together. I have to say what shook me most about this episode was the way Patricia Arquette, who, look, her pronunciations can be all over the board, pronounced Imogen.
- [28:43]
Joe
Imogen, yeah.
- [28:45]
Rob Mahoney
Which shook me to my core that I may have been pronouncing Imogen Heaps name wrong all these years, but it turns out not.
- [28:52]
Joe
No, you can. I've heard it both, like, it's more commonly Imogen, but I have heard Imogen, but it is more commonly Imogen.
- [28:58]
Rob Mahoney
Well, shout out to all the Imogens and Imogens out there.
- [29:00]
Joe
Imogen's like a real old tiny way of saying Imogen for sure. I think this other thing that we learned, because knowing that she was not just like at this Egan School, but also was a child laborer. Really underlines this sort of like, has Harmony Cobell ever lived a life? You know what I mean? And so something that she was talking about a little bit. Patricia was talking about a little bit on the official pod and I think is really evident when you go back and think about it, is her Mrs. Selvig stuff on the one hand was creepy spying on Mark. Scientific exploration, which we'll talk about in a little bit more. As she's, like, kind of testing the bounds of. Of severance, the walls in her own way. But also her, like, as. As the con goes on, she starts to enjoy just, like, not being in the office and not centering everything in her life around Lumen. Like, when she's with Devin.
- [29:55]
Rob Mahoney
Yeah.
- [29:55]
Joe
And she's just, like, telling stories and cracking jokes and talking about babies. Like, are there ways in which this is just, like, actually her enjoying her life or when she, like, shares a smooch with Hampton here? Like, is it just sort of like Harmony Cobell has never truly lived?
- [30:11]
Rob Mahoney
She has not.
- [30:12]
Joe
You know, which give her some grace.
- [30:14]
Rob Mahoney
For the fact that I wouldn't say she's particularly great at it yet. She's a little bit of, like, D'Onofrio and men in Black. Like alien bugs in the skin suit.
- [30:22]
Joe
Sometimes in an Egger suit. Yeah.
- [30:24]
Rob Mahoney
Yeah, it is that way. But clearly she's learning how to be a person, and she's learning everything that comes with that, all the pains that come with that, the kind of ego and the sort of the feeling of being wronged by Lumen that she's striving for simultaneously. Yeah, she's dealing with a lot.
- [30:40]
Joe
Daredevil is born again on Disney plus.
- [30:43]
Rob Mahoney
My name is Matthew Murdoch.
- [30:45]
Joe
I'm a lawyer.
- [30:47]
Rob Mahoney
Exactly.
- [30:47]
Joe
What kind of a lawyer are you?
- [30:49]
Rob Mahoney
A really good one.
- [30:50]
Joe
Critics everywhere agree it's the best Marvel television series. Gritty, intense, and elevated. It's Daredevil at his best.
- [30:59]
Rob Mahoney
If you step out of line, I will be there.
- [31:04]
Joe
Marvel Television's Daredevil, born again, now streaming only on Disney plus. Can I float a. A fun little theory about you?
- [31:13]
Rob Mahoney
I would love nothing more.
- [31:15]
Joe
Okay. D. Dal. Ether.
- [31:19]
Rob Mahoney
Sure.
- [31:20]
Joe
That sound sound right to you?
- [31:21]
Rob Mahoney
Close enough to me.
- [31:22]
Joe
Pineapple bombingmail.com if I mispronounced that. Diethyl ethereum. If you take the first.
- [31:30]
Rob Mahoney
Are we anagramming?
- [31:32]
Joe
Three letters.
- [31:33]
Rob Mahoney
Okay.
- [31:34]
Joe
And the last two letters? First four letters. Last two letters. Smush them together. You get Dieter.
- [31:40]
Rob Mahoney
Yep.
- [31:41]
Joe
As in Dieter Egan. Is there a possibility that Dieter Egan.
- [31:45]
Rob Mahoney
Was a fever dream?
- [31:47]
Joe
Was never really Real, but is really just the I'm on aether, dark shadow version of Kiryghan.
- [31:56]
Rob Mahoney
I mean, yeah, I don't believe that a dude jerked off on a tree and died or sorry, jerked off on the ground and became a tree. I want to get my facts straight.
- [32:03]
Joe
Yeah, please, please get the lore right.
- [32:05]
Rob Mahoney
I want to get the lore correct. Yeah, that seems very possible to me.
- [32:11]
Joe
So good old Dieter, I'm just going to call him Aether Egan. This idea of him as like the shadow self of Kirigan, who already seems shadowy in his own right.
- [32:20]
Rob Mahoney
Well, and I guess your aether self, as people kind of put it in the Ordbo episode as we were talking about Dieter and who he was and why he was a secret in this idea of the shadow self. I mean, what is a severed self but an ethered self?
- [32:33]
Joe
Right?
- [32:33]
Rob Mahoney
It's like this sort of mirrored version of you that has no cares in the world. That as Hampton is a sort of like cackle crying as you get high. The effects are quite immediate and quite severe and clearly lead to some light to medium smooching on a bed that may have been where your mother died.
- [32:50]
Joe
And I don't think those sheets were ever cleaned. Like, I just.
- [32:52]
Rob Mahoney
They were not. That room was moth eaten to hell. No one has been in there.
- [32:57]
Joe
She's like laid down forever. I was just. We saw the like the, the light of day pass. I was just like, oh my God. Okay, the Nine get mentioned a couple times and just worth reminding people when she says sissy lives by the Nine. The first time I watched this, not paying enough attention, I was like, is the 9 a geographic location? No living gods in the new. What is it? Living by the Nine, meaning in adherence with the Nine. And just to remind people if they don't remember, the Nine tenants are vision, verve, wit, cheer, humility, benevolence, nimbleness, probity and wiles.
- [33:37]
Rob Mahoney
Yes, can we take a quick segue into please, Sissy's shrine corner?
- [33:44]
Joe
Is this where Freeze Frame Mahoney comes to play?
- [33:48]
Rob Mahoney
You gotta do it. You gotta zoom in. You gotta see what's going on here. We've already seen Harmony's shrine in her own place. And I will say there's a lot of familiarity here. A lot of familiar artifacts, a lot of crossover. You see the same portrait of Kir, understandably, the same sort of like paper mache heads of the four tempers. Same old timey ad for severance, which has like an Ask your supervisor if severance is right for you tag on the bottom that makes me laugh every time I see it. Various newspaper clippings, a note card about probity, which, as you said, is one of the nine core principles. All that stuff we've seen before. There's some new stuff, though, including, you know, as we see a plaque as Harmony walks down the hall, alluding to the fact that Sissy was sort of like a matron, presumably for these child workers. I'm gonna take that as kind of what her role was. And you see some lumen, ether patches next to her shrine. And they have. One of them has an eye on it. One of them has a full set of teeth on it. One of them has what appears to be a man running. I'm gonna take those as the eye for vision, the teeth for cheer, the running for nimbleness. As sort of like a merit badge sort of system. In terms of what Sissy, you know, some commendations for her work as a matron.
- [34:58]
Joe
You don't miss. And I love it.
- [35:00]
Rob Mahoney
I appreciate that. There's also a card with an image of a child with some adults that says, quote, you must be cut to heal. Which sounds a little creepy in retrospect. Don't love it. Don't love anything that I'm seeing there. And I will say, the things that Harmony had in her shrine that Sissy doesn't are a lot more childish things. Right. It's like the awards that she won from school. The most observant. The best use of mealtime condiments. Her best girl trophy. I think there was a plush goat in there. And so Sissy's is a little bit different. Some different artifacts, some different items. And clearly no breathing tube, because Harmony had it in the first place. And it doesn't seem like Sissy thinks a lot of her. Her departed sister.
- [35:41]
Joe
No. Also definitely arts and crafts involved in both. Like, in terms of, like, the Four Tempers representation. Quick question for you, Rob, please. In the 19th. Thank you for doing all of that. You're the best. In the 19th century, when folks would gather together and huff ether. Together. Yes, for its intoxicating effects. Do you have any guesses as to what they called those gatherings?
- [36:11]
Rob Mahoney
I do, because I also Googled it. They were an ether frolic.
- [36:14]
Joe
It's an ether frolic.
- [36:15]
Rob Mahoney
Classic aether. Frolic.
- [36:17]
Joe
Frolic. Of course. One of the four Tempers. We've seen it tattooed on Drummond's hand.
- [36:22]
Rob Mahoney
I would say the best of the four tempers. I'm willing to alienate the other three tempers in the process, but it's the only One that I want to be a part of.
- [36:28]
Joe
Suck it. Whoa. I mentioned Erin Brockovich a couple times. It's obviously not the only way in which we can think about sort of like the ill effects of industry on townspeople.
- [36:42]
Rob Mahoney
But what if episode nine is just Julia rolling up and you just get the full backstory of what happened here.
- [36:47]
Joe
In Salt Snake and she has everyone's phone number memorized. It's great.
- [36:50]
Rob Mahoney
That's what she does.
- [36:52]
Joe
Another, I will say another film that I think would helps me understand this kind of experience is that there's this great movie called Maidawan, which is, like, about unionizing labor around coal mines in early 20th century, I think, West Virginia. And this idea of, like, company towns, coal mining towns, the way that a company town. We've talked about this with Kier. Where, Where Mark lives. The idea of a company town that they own the general store, they own your house, they own everything, they own the Zufu Chinese restaurant, they own Zufu Chinese restaurant. They're setting you up on blind dates that in. In. In certain areas of America that they would not pay you in money, but pay you in scrip that you could only use at the company store. You know what I mean? So you can never, like, get out of the cycle of control that people like J.P. morgan or Car or Andrew Carnegie or these other, like, titans of American industry who are surely models for Keir Egan instituted in our great nation.
- [38:00]
Rob Mahoney
Well, not a coincidence that often those company towns and that sort of payment systems came with extraordinarily dangerous work, right? Like things that people don't want to be doing but then feel beholden to and feel trapped in because they don't have any actual currency to speak of.
- [38:15]
Joe
And the Midwest, you know, we've talked about all the, like, Michigan, Michigander sort of stuff, you know, like, thinking a lot about Detroit as a city that has been, in a different sense, but sort of hollowed out by industry. Where there was like, the booming auto industry. And then as. As those factories shuttered went overseas, whatever it is, that town that city is. Is rebuilding, but became something of like a. A ghost city for a while. For there was like a. A streak of incredible horror films that were filmed in, like, the outskirts of Detroit because it just looked, like, abandoned. And that's no disrespect to any Detroiters who are listening because there's, like, vibrant and very cool parts of that city. But there's also ways in which that city was forever changed by. By an industry that fed it and then abandoned it, you know, without any like, not even fed it, like milked it essentially for its labor and then just sort of like left it high and dry. So, yeah, the Midwest part I thought.
- [39:15]
Rob Mahoney
Was interesting with this episode because this feels very different in terms of the location, the setting. There's. I mean, clearly we're out and about in a way that we are not often very, very much on severance. It also felt. I don't know where this was shot.
- [39:27]
Joe
Kind of Newfoundland.
- [39:28]
Rob Mahoney
Okay. I was about to say coastal Canada is kind of the vibe that it's evoking. And I think, you know, everything we've seen to this point, both in art and pixelated graphics and out in the real world has been more like lake town oriented.
- [39:41]
Joe
It felt like.
- [39:42]
Rob Mahoney
And this was. It felt like a real venture to the coast to see some actual coast.
- [39:45]
Joe
Side, some Manchester by the sea sort of energy here.
- [39:49]
Rob Mahoney
That's not the energy you want, let me tell you.
- [39:52]
Joe
Let me say never. Okay, brief foray to literature corner. We did get an email from a listener that I have. What is it is Christine wrote in. In response to me mentioning A Swim in the Pond in the Rain by George Saunders. This exploration of these Russian. Various Russian short stories. She. She was rereading it after we talked about it last week. Love that. Love when people read books, because we talked about it. That's very exciting.
- [40:20]
Rob Mahoney
You love when people do the reading. You know, you assign it every week. And many people don't even crack open their books.
- [40:25]
Joe
I do love it. Anyway, she said she reread the first chapter, which is about Chekhovs, in the cart. And she was talking about how much that story, which is about a woman whose life is sort of like, who's mourning the loss of her mother and her life has passed her by. And she's been disappointed. It's just her on the road in a cart. In the ways that Harmony has been in her White rabbit for much of the season. She's like, there's so much of that text and how sparse and spare 37 minute runtime that story is. And just they gave that in relation to this, which I think is very rich. I did not study Russian literature in school. I studied British literature mostly. So I have to shout out, our guy, Charles Dickens. You don't. Our guy.
- [41:09]
Rob Mahoney
You really don't.
- [41:10]
Joe
I do. Because not only can.
- [41:12]
Rob Mahoney
Whoa, suck it. Dickens can suck it.
- [41:14]
Joe
Absolutely not. Charles Dickens was a child laborer. And so a lot of his books have this element of child labor in them. Something like David Copperfield, who works in like a bottling factory. Charles Dickens works in a, in a boot blacking factory when he was a kid. And this also this idea of upward mobility and going back home again. So in David Copperfield or Great Expectations, this idea of like, you have elevated yourself in society, you have tried to separate yourself from your humble beginnings and then what is it for you to go home again and people to resent the heirs that you've put on or for you to be repulsed by your more humble origins and all that sort of stuff. That was very much, I think, in the mix for me inside of this episode for sure.
- [41:56]
Rob Mahoney
And also, I think from Sissy's perspective, the deep disappointment in someone that presumably it seems like she had, at least after Harmony's mother's death, a sort of active hand in raising and presumably like out on the warehouse or on the mill floor, like is in charge of Harmony in some ways. And you get the line about how she, you know, she thought she was her beautiful flower, but she was just her weeee. That line read was fantastic. I was very much a fan of everything that's going on there with Jane Alexander. But you know, this idea of not only are you trapped in this company, trapped in this life, this company, not just a company town, but a company lifestyle, and when you try to break out of it, everyone you've ever cared about has stolen your ideas, has used them for their own personal gain, now sees you as a disappointment, is firing you when you thought you were untouchable, because if nothing else, you had dedicated your life to this cause and now what are you left with if you're Harmony Cobell, other than your precious, precious schematics that will prove, I don't know to who, but even if I did have them, I wouldn't hand them to Sissy when she's standing by a fire, I will tell you that much.
- [43:01]
Joe
There are two things that happen this episode among, you know, whatever else. There are two things that I'm just sort of like, really. One was her handing the schematics to standing right in front, who had just, just put another log on the, on the wood burning stove. And then also, with love and respect, Devon spilling every bean to Harmony on the phone. Her calling Harmony, which a lot of people had an issue with last week. I was just sort of like, she's desperate. Her brother is potentially dying. She will do anything to try to get help. That I understood her telling Harmony on the phone, yeah, have some questions.
- [43:42]
Rob Mahoney
This is a woman who manipulated her brother, who kidnapped her child and then abandoned the child and committed lactation Fraud. You tell me which of those is the worst? I don't know. But three things that Devin might be holding against Ms. Cobell at this stage in the story. I, again, I understand the desperation that you're alluding to. She just watched her brother go thud real loud on the floor and then be slowly brought back to consciousness.
- [44:07]
Jordan Ritter Khan
She's freaked.
- [44:08]
Rob Mahoney
But I think there are many other places you could potentially go. And I think here's the thing. At this point, her being desperate and wanting answers with no regabi makes more sense than when Rigabe was still there. And she's saying, what if we called Ms. Cobell and try to get Mark into the birthing retreat so we can talk to his innie? I didn't understand any of that.
- [44:28]
Joe
That's fair, and I think that's fair. Anything else you want to talk about before we do this sort of like unboxing slash tour through Cobell's greatest hits?
- [44:37]
Rob Mahoney
I do have one thing I want to mention, Joe, which is so much about this episode, so much about this show, so much about Harmony Cobell. We have talked about as being out of time and very difficult to pin down in terms of these very 70s and 80s cars that they use the technology both inside and outside of the Severed Floor. It's so hard to get a feel for where we are and kind of what these people are dealing with. And there's kind of an interesting effect with that on the soundtrack this week, too. We get this track, Where Do We Go From Here? By Charles Bradley, after Harmony sees Hampton in the cafe, asks for a favor, and he immediately goes like, our guy is not hesitating. He wants that smooch so bad, even though he doesn't know it yet. It's this track that sounds extremely 70s soul but was released in 2013. Oh, and if that's not severance, I don't know what is. That's really the vibe we're trying to cultivate.
- [45:27]
Joe
I love that. On the music front, did you know what another name for a theremin is?
- [45:36]
Rob Mahoney
I did. Wait, no, we did. We talked about this. It was like the Aetherphone.
- [45:40]
Joe
Aetherphone.
- [45:41]
Rob Mahoney
Classic Aetherphone Etherphone.
- [45:43]
Joe
Let's do what we're going to do is we've got six clips that we're going to play and just sort of like discuss what was going on underneath the scene that we were watching. Now that we know that Harmony Cobell invented severance, my favorite comment that I've seen on Reddit and elsewhere is like, a woman in stem, Harmony Cobell. So Celebrating innovator Harmony Cobell. We're gonna go through those clips and also we're gonna unbox some of these weird little boxes that Apple has sent over.
- [46:16]
Rob Mahoney
Yes.
- [46:16]
Joe
I have sent Rob sort of like a photo of the boxes, so he gets to pick which we start with. Rob, which box would you like to start with?
- [46:24]
Rob Mahoney
I think there's only one choice, Joe. Which is the middle box for roasting? I think we have to know what marshmallows are in there. Are we going to get a proper kier stamped marshmallow within this box?
- [46:37]
Joe
We did not. There was no dry run of this extracting the box situation. There we go. Okay. For roasting, Fireside delight. Is what the box says wonderful.
- [46:49]
Rob Mahoney
I mean, we can presume, but I want to know if the stamp's on.
- [46:52]
Joe
There, then there is. Inside there is a jar, and it is chocolate, graham cracker, marshmallow, Unstamped, Unstamped, Unstamped. S'mores. Ingredients. The chocolate is stamped with the word severance.
- [47:14]
Rob Mahoney
Okay, you can stamp the chocolate. You can't stamp that marshmallow.
- [47:16]
Joe
There's no. I guess I'll. I'm gonna touch the marshmallow on a podcast. I'm sorry.
- [47:20]
Rob Mahoney
Okay, I'm gonna touch the marshmallow. Famous last words by Joanna Robinson in her professional podcasting career.
- [47:27]
Joe
Stamp free. Stamp free.
- [47:28]
Rob Mahoney
Okay, I'm a little bummed, but look, I waited some more. Stamp or not, I'm thrilled about it.
- [47:35]
Joe
So that is box number one. Was a was s'more fixin's from Apple tv.
- [47:40]
Rob Mahoney
But what delicious quote do we have, Joe, in box number one?
- [47:43]
Joe
Thank you so much for that setup. Kai, will you play this from season one, episode one?
- [47:47]
D
You know, my mother was an atheist. She used to say that there was good news and bad news about hell. The good news is hell is just the product of a morbid human imagination. The bad news is whatever humans can imagine, they can usually create.
- [48:08]
Rob Mahoney
My main takeaway from this clip, Joe, was that Patricia Arquette as Harmony has gone fully around the bend since episode one of season one. Just the zaniness of the delivery overall has been amped up to 11.
- [48:21]
Joe
That's deeply true. Good news about hell is that was the name of the pilot season one, episode one, the name of the pilot episode. And we should note that she says my mother was an atheist here. And then later when she's talking to Devin, she says my mother was a Catholic. So, like, we don't know what, if any of this is true. Yes, but this idea of humans can invent their own hell. I thought that that was, like, particularly salient when we're thinking about Harmony Cobell, the inventor of severance. Like, yes, she was living a hell as a child laborer who was huffing ether, and then she dreamt up this, like, a way to spread that far and wide out of the ether mills into the cubicles of America. So complicated. Complicated legacy. Next box. Rob Mahoney.
- [49:09]
Rob Mahoney
Next box. I would love to see what's in the desk furnishing box because it's subtitled Pineapple.
- [49:16]
Joe
That's the one I thought you were gonna start with. I was like, how is he not gonna start with pineapple?
- [49:19]
Rob Mahoney
I did learn one. You know, this is maybe a little far afield for this episode, which has nothing to do with Gemma anymore. Strictly Cobell focused. This week we got an email from Mary Kate about how the pineapple is a symbol in the fertility community, which is something that I can't. Did we brush on that as we've gone through the eight different things that pineapples represent?
- [49:38]
Joe
What has the pineapple not stood for, is my question.
- [49:40]
Rob Mahoney
Yes. You know, in this case, I think there's a belief that eating pineapple at various points in your pregnancy will help establish it. And especially in the IVF process and the science on that seems a little bit fuzzy, but it's become this sort of, like, emblematic, hopeful thing, I think, for people trying to get pregnant, which is a fascinating subtext for severance, too.
- [49:59]
Joe
This box that says desk furnishing Pineapple, it says, congratulations on your new desk companion and air plant. And it's got care instructions for, like, an airplane, which I guess is inside. Further inside.
- [50:13]
Rob Mahoney
Are we going. We're going full succulent on this thing.
- [50:16]
Joe
Let's find out. It's been in a box for, like, a couple weeks.
- [50:19]
Rob Mahoney
Oh, you can't kill an airplane.
- [50:21]
Joe
So, yeah, that's the next. Oh, okay, wait. Okay. It's an airplane inside of, like, a little plastic pineapple.
- [50:32]
Rob Mahoney
Did you just kill the airplane?
- [50:33]
Joe
No, I just. I just made it go for a little ride, but now it's fine. It's a little pineapple airplane thingy.
- [50:39]
Rob Mahoney
How's your green thumb, Jo?
- [50:41]
Joe
Oh, pretty. Pretty shriveled. Okay. Is this good audio? Who's too.
- [50:46]
Rob Mahoney
Did you ever see the movie the Troll in Central Park?
- [50:49]
Joe
No. What?
- [50:50]
Rob Mahoney
No, it's this animated movie about a troll who lives in Central park, and he's, like, has a superpower, which is his thumb turns green and he can make plants grow. But then the villain of the movie I can't remember what the villain is. Has a red evil thumb that kills the plants. And I would describe that as most accurate to my planting and nursing experience.
- [51:09]
Joe
I have killed unkillable succulents before. All right, next clip comes from season one, episode five, and it is a conversation between Cobell and Milchick.
- [51:22]
Rob Mahoney
I saw Ms. Casey down there. You're having her watch Heliar.
- [51:28]
D
I am. May I ask why the light of discovery shines truer upon a virgin meadow.
- [51:38]
Rob Mahoney
Than a beaten path?
- [51:46]
D
I'm trying something new with Ms. Casey. Keep it between us.
- [51:55]
Joe
Do you have any thought, Anything you want to. I'm the one who picks these clips. So, like, you know, but. But anything strike you about that clip in particular?
- [52:01]
Rob Mahoney
The light of Discovery shines truer on a virgin meadow than a beaten path. Feels like something that Jame Egan might have told Harmony in stealing her idea. This like, I am a wizened old inventor, but you are part of our family, and clearly your mind is more tapped in to the cosmos and its infinite potential. And therefore, this is why I'm gonna take your idea from you. This is why everything that you've created belongs to me.
- [52:25]
Joe
I love that. It should be noted that in the closed captioning there is quote. There are quotes around that part. And so, like, it's.
- [52:31]
Rob Mahoney
Oh, fascinating.
- [52:32]
Joe
Yeah, it's true. She's like, I think often quoting Egan scripture essentially in the first season. So, yeah, that whole Light of Discovery Egan bullshit thing, but also just this idea that, like her experimentation with Ms. Casey and Mark, this idea of it as like her furthering her own scientific discovery outside of the bounds of Lumen. Like, they took her idea and either stole. I mean, stole it definitely, but stole it in a way that they like. But you're in charge, so it's still your project. And we'll get to that in a second, obviously. But also no further experimentation from you required. And her inquiring scientific mind is like, like, no, I want to steal some scented candles and leave them in the wellness room. And like all these other things that she does with Mark and Ms. Casey sort of running her own scientific experiments because she is a science minded person.
- [53:34]
Rob Mahoney
Yeah, I think that's the big takeaway as far as looking back at the Ms. Cobell scenes is a lot less ambitious. Middle manager, meddlesome, obsessive, like just overall, like weird workplace element and more. Oh, this is somebody who is tinkering from a place of scientific interest. This is somebody who clearly has not just a lot invested in the idea of severance, but in furthering it and in perfecting it in the way that the scientific method would suggest you should.
- [54:05]
Joe
Next box, Rob.
- [54:06]
Rob Mahoney
I think the next box. I would love to see a tasty new snack.
- [54:11]
Joe
The top, middle box, it says salted dehydrate. What could be salted and dehydrated?
- [54:17]
Rob Mahoney
Oh, we got to get a fruit leather in there.
- [54:19]
Joe
Oh, God. But salt.
- [54:22]
Rob Mahoney
What was the. There was like, split seeds or something in the Lumen vending machine.
- [54:26]
Joe
Cut beans, Cut beans. Salted cut beans.
- [54:28]
Rob Mahoney
Split seeds, cut beans. Who's to say?
- [54:30]
Joe
It says it's a fruit leather box.
- [54:32]
Rob Mahoney
Okay.
- [54:34]
Joe
And a cut beans box. Salted beans.
- [54:36]
Rob Mahoney
So we will finally understand what cut beans are.
- [54:39]
Joe
Yeah. So fruit leather, which is just fruit leather, which is fine. We understand that. Cut beans. Is this good audio? Let's just. You guys should just switch over the video if you don't. Organic green beans, canola oil, tapioca starch. Dexter. And sea salts.
- [54:52]
Rob Mahoney
Sure.
- [54:52]
Joe
Cut beans. Sounds great. Sounds.
- [54:55]
Rob Mahoney
We're going to need the full report. Just go to Jo's Instagram account where she will be live streaming her eating cut beans.
- [55:03]
Joe
The things we do for content. All right, let's play clip number three. This comes from season one, episode seven.
- [55:09]
D
Whoever killed Mr. Graynor is probably the same person who reintegrated Peter Kilmer.
- [55:19]
Joe
The board reminds you that reintegration has not reintegration happened.
- [55:23]
D
And I have the data to prove it. And I would be happy to share my findings in person without intermediaries.
- [55:34]
Joe
She has the findings. She has the proof.
- [55:37]
Rob Mahoney
She does.
- [55:37]
Joe
She dug a chapter.
- [55:38]
Rob Mahoney
She drilled it out of the guy's brain. What more proof do you need?
- [55:45]
Joe
Her relationship with Grayner, too. We should point out that in season one, episode five, in that Light of Discovery episode, when they're talking about reintegration and Petey and Regabi and stuff like that.
- [55:55]
Rob Mahoney
Yes.
- [55:55]
Joe
He says to her, you were right, Harmony. We should celebrate this idea of Graener as, like, her ally. Graener who died and we thought was fairly villainous. And he is, but, like, was her ally in her endeavor to prove something about reintegration. Again, like, more information about her own. Her own scientific discovery. She wants to know, is re education possible? She's constantly pissed about Regabi, working on it outside of the bounds of Lumen. But she's still very curious. And the board is like, reintegration doesn't exist. She's like, it does, man. We have to know everything about severance, you know?
- [56:35]
Rob Mahoney
So I. I also want to say that Harmony, for her Part is not. Not villainous. Like we've learned a lot more about her. She's still done some weird fucked up things and ultimately I think is still so driven by the idea of furthering her discovery and her invention. Even if she's not given credit for it at the expense of all of these people around her. Anyone who's working on the severed floor, anyone else who might be severed out in the world drilling chips out of dudes heads. But she has more hard data to her point on this subject than literally anyone else in the world. Even Rigabe. I don't think we have evidence to suggest was able to study Petey's chip post reintegration Harmony's fricking wearing around her.
- [57:15]
Joe
Neck like a total weirdo. She's villainous the way that Milchik is. The way that like all of these people who are sort of abused by and still working for Lumen and so like Helena as well. I would say all these people who are sort of like used and abused by the company.
- [57:33]
Rob Mahoney
Yeah.
- [57:33]
Joe
But are furthering the company's aims nonetheless.
- [57:36]
Rob Mahoney
Like that you can be sympathetic and villainous at the same time. In fact, I would prefer if you are.
- [57:41]
Joe
Or someone who's due for a face turn. Which it kind of feels like is. Is where we're heading with Harmony the only option really. We're wrapping up our season one clips but one more box quickly. Before we do that, Rob, I would.
- [57:55]
Rob Mahoney
Love to hear auditory pleasure because I don't know how you would capture such a thing in a box.
- [58:01]
Joe
My guess based on like weird random swag I've gotten in the past from various people is that this is like a portable speaker. Okay, I did not say that into the microphone. That this is a portable speaker. They love a portable speaker. That is like one of their favorite things to send. Oh no, it's AirPods.
- [58:20]
Rob Mahoney
Hell yeah. Joe, we're flexing out here.
- [58:24]
Joe
Swag. Life is very weird and I just need you to know that. But it is AirPods. Just a random AirPods box.
- [58:30]
Rob Mahoney
So these things are roughly equal. You know a pineapple air planter.
- [58:34]
Joe
Yeah.
- [58:34]
Rob Mahoney
A marshmallow kit for some s'mores and some AirPods. All of roughly equivalent value.
- [58:41]
Joe
I feel really embarrassed that I thought all this is going to be nonsense stuff. I feel embarrassed that there was like an actual high value thing in there. Let's play the season one Episode eight clip of Harmony Cabell getting fired.
- [58:52]
Rob Mahoney
It has been decided that you be.
- [58:54]
Joe
Suspended from your position effective immediately. You are fired. Oh, off.
- [59:07]
D
Natalie, is the board Even there.
- [59:17]
Rob Mahoney
Yes.
- [59:19]
Joe
This is an incredible scene if you rewatch it. The look on Patricia Arquette's face when Natalie says, you're fired. And I believe she says, what? Get fucked, Natalie. Or whatever.
- [59:32]
Rob Mahoney
Fuck off.
- [59:33]
Joe
Fuck off, Natalie. There you go. The incredulity in her face of, like, I invented severance and you, Natalie, a functionary, are firing me.
- [59:46]
Rob Mahoney
Yeah.
- [59:46]
Joe
And then she's, like, asking if the board's even involved. Cause surely the board wouldn't fucking do this to her.
- [59:51]
Rob Mahoney
Of course not.
- [59:52]
Joe
Then we hear from the speaker on her desk, and then the way it's shot, it's like her. She's sitting behind Natalie. She's, like, out of focus. She, like, veers around Natalie's shoulder so that she comes into focus and, like, sees the speaker and is like. And then tries to collect herself and tries to talk to the board, but they're already gone. It is, again, she is a villain. I'm not trying to, like, apologize to her, but watching her get fired, knowing that she invented severance and they built this entire thing around her invention and then they're firing her. Watching the leopards eat her face in real time is just, like. It's. It's tough.
- [60:28]
Rob Mahoney
I don't want to watch leopards eat anybody's face.
- [60:30]
Joe
No.
- [60:30]
Rob Mahoney
I also will say I love the way they shoot the bored audio box. The speaker box.
- [60:35]
Joe
Yeah.
- [60:36]
Rob Mahoney
Just because they treat it almost like a character. And, like, people in the room are sort of craning around, like, staring at this box, waiting for the barest of possible responses.
- [60:46]
Joe
Exactly.
- [60:46]
Rob Mahoney
And one of the things that stuck out to me, Joe, in revisiting some of these clips, including some of the ones we're still gonna get to, is this idea that, because James Egan blatantly ripped off Harmony's idea, at least it seems at this point, took it, co opted it, made it his own. The legend is now that he created it.
- [61:02]
Joe
Right.
- [61:02]
Rob Mahoney
And we do see a photo in her yearbook for the Wintertide Fellowship of him handing her the trophy in which it has been. The schematics have been stashed, so clearly they had some kind of actual relationship. And at this point, there's just so many vibes in which it seems like he's decided he never wants to be in a room with Harmony Cobell ever, ever again and ever have to explain himself or apologize or contextualize or make any kind of concession to this woman who he has just exploited through and through, basically, for her entire life.
- [61:30]
Joe
Some real Watson and Crick shit. All right, before we get to Our next clip. What's the second to last box you want me to open?
- [61:38]
Rob Mahoney
I would love to see Stress Control. Subtitled A Squishy Friend.
- [61:42]
Joe
This has got to be hopefully a very, very inexpensive, cheap stress ball. And not another high priced item. One can only hope. Oh, it's a stress cow. That says Lumen on the side of it.
- [61:57]
Rob Mahoney
Joe, that is not a cow.
- [62:00]
Joe
That was a goat. Oh, my God. I'm so sorry.
- [62:01]
Rob Mahoney
100% a goat.
- [62:03]
Joe
That's so embarrassing. It's definitely a goat. It's got a little beard.
- [62:07]
Rob Mahoney
We got to get you out to salt snack. You gotta. You gotta interact with some real people.
- [62:12]
Joe
It's. Yeah, it's a goat. Obviously it's a goat. What else could it possibly fucking be? A Lumen branded stress goat. Okay, let's. Let's play. Season 2 Episode 2 Clip please.
- [62:22]
D
It cost me dearly. I did. And still you proved your loyalty tonight, which is why we'd like to ask you back an apology because. Warranted. I apologize. My father apologizes. The board apologizes. We've treated you poorly. I'm sorry.
- [63:13]
Rob Mahoney
Just all the child laborers out there. We've treated you poorly. Our bad.
- [63:18]
Joe
Thinking about it. The. It cost me dearly thinking about, like her. Her mom.
- [63:25]
Rob Mahoney
Yes.
- [63:25]
Joe
You know, we already clocked this as like, just like a. I don't mean it. Apology from Helena, of course, but I guess the question. And this goes to like the next clip that we'll listen to as well. We don't know if Helena knows that she invented severance. In fact, there's every indication that perhaps she doesn't know. But it is still the galling nature of having to listen to this from Helena of just like, you know, and. And. And what? That's a longer. There's a longer scene inside of that clip obviously that like, you have no choice. You, Nini, you fear me. You know, And Helena says we fear no one. But just sort of this idea of like, she's like, you can't. I invented this shit. You can't get rid of me. You need me for. This is sort of underpinning all of that.
- [64:14]
Rob Mahoney
One thing that I do like about this particular reveal for Cobell is that we've already had the moment of revisiting a lot of Helena's scenes. You know, now that once we figured out that she was an Egan, you can rewatch season one and you can understand some of the context a little better. You can understand the sort of like, my company. Your company thing that's happening between Harmony and Helena or Helia at that point, even though she doesn't know she's Helena. And now that takes on a totally new flavor when you know that her company was built on your work and your ideas. And so the kind of wrestling within those scenes for meaning as we get reveal on reveal on reveal that I have a lot of admiration for.
- [64:50]
Joe
Last but not least, one last box. One last clip.
- [64:55]
Rob Mahoney
What's the best box remaining? We have enhanced decor. I'm not so moved by it. We have.
- [65:02]
Joe
This is definitely stickers. This is definitely a candle. This is definitely probably a. Like, a gift card for Starbucks or something like that. And the beverage is available on request, so I would say a cure package.
- [65:13]
Rob Mahoney
Let's see it. Whatever that is ambiguous.
- [65:16]
Joe
Okay. This is my best idea I've ever had for a podcast.
- [65:23]
Rob Mahoney
What do you think of what you've become, Joe? As a formal unboxer.
- [65:29]
Joe
I misidentified a goat. As a cow. A goat. A very important part of severance. As a cow. So not great. Oh, it's a. It's a. It's a box for the AirPods that they put in this thing.
- [65:43]
Rob Mahoney
As you live your life of luxury over there with all of your swag, you must protect it.
- [65:47]
Joe
Oh, okay. Not that it matters, but I will not be keeping these AirPods. I will probably. I will give them to whichever person who's working here today wants them, because I can't wear AirPods because they fall out of my ears. So if that helps anyone from not like thinking of me as.
- [66:02]
Rob Mahoney
You were so close to being benevolent, and then it was like, oh, no, I just. I can't use these. It's not out of the goodness of my heart. It's just I couldn't possibly actually use them into someone else.
- [66:11]
Joe
Very generous person, Rob. Let's play the last clip.
- [66:15]
D
Marcus is so close to completing Cold Harbor. I intend to finish the work that I started, which is why Milchek must go. He's not equipped for the task. I must be floor manager. I hear ego, hubris, arrogance. Care teaches us they only cause pain. Everything I accomplished I earned through dedication and industry, not because I was born into it. I think you've overestimated your contributions and underestimated your blessings. We didn't have to ask you back.
- [67:34]
Rob Mahoney
How dare you, lady with a fake mba, say this to a woman in stem?
- [67:41]
Joe
We already. I mean, we covered the. The. The gall. This. This Nepo baby conversation before. Obviously, that was all already there, but hearing you overestimate your contribution is quite tough. Also, like Harmony saying several times I need to finish what I started. I need to finish what I started. And we're like, oh, what she started on the floor. No, what she started by coming up with severance in the first place.
- [68:08]
Rob Mahoney
What she started with her throuple imaginings with the various marks.
- [68:12]
Joe
Yeah, exactly. Exactly.
- [68:14]
Rob Mahoney
This scene, too, is preceded, we should say, by Harmony's first instinct is to drive to Salt's neck.
- [68:19]
Joe
Correct.
- [68:20]
Rob Mahoney
And then she turns around and comes back to Lumen to have this conversation and to make, like, one last pitch, basically furthering the idea that you put forward early on this pod. Jo, she is a true believer. Like, she wants to be a part of the machine as much as anything. Like, she wants to continue living the cure lifestyle. But at this point, they just are, like, refusing to not only respect her, but even give her the bare minimum of having her old job back.
- [68:44]
Joe
And I don't know if you've ever heard this expression, but hell hath no fury like a woman scorned by her industry, religion, boss, Daddy, and that old chestnut. That old chestnut. And that's where we find Harmony Cobell. Scorned by the religion that she believed in, by the company that she gave her entire life to, and hopefully out for vengeance or out to sell out, you know, Mark and Devin for a chance at her job back.
- [69:15]
Rob Mahoney
I don't mind that. Either.
- [69:16]
Joe
Go either way. Go either way.
- [69:18]
Rob Mahoney
What is your read at this point on whether Helena Egan knows that her father did not invent severance?
- [69:24]
Joe
I don't think she knows. There's so much she doesn't know. You know that conversation she had at Zufu with Mark where she's like, I know everything. I'm at the top of my company. Sure. It's just, like, more and more apparent to me that she's kept completely in the dark about everything.
- [69:40]
Rob Mahoney
She definitely could be. I think one thing that I'm so glad about, in retrospect, is during the overtime contingency, you get that exchange between Jaime Egan and, at that point, Heli are in Helena's body, like, posing as Helena. And so when Jaime tells her this memory of, like, showing her the prototype for the severance chip when she was a child, Heli has no means to dispute that. Even if she knew that, even if Helena knows the truth, Heli wouldn't know the truth, that Jaime didn't actually invent it. And so it's one of, yet again, one of these scenes where we're left, like, grasping at straws as to who knows what and when and what is true to whom. I do think Helena probably knows enough to know that maybe her family and the business is full of it in certain senses and maybe has a sense that like this isn't all that it appears to be. Maybe my father, who I have no idea if he has a scientific background or not, could not just invent something like a brain chip. But she's also in a position where she's not exactly incentivized to poke too hard at that idea. Like any any poking around she does would take herself down a peg in the process.
- [70:44]
Joe
Here's what I hope Milchick, Helena, Harmony, all turn on the company at the end of the day.
- [70:50]
Rob Mahoney
But then who's the literal villain of the show?
- [70:53]
Joe
Jam Egan. You know, Natalie Aldridge, the body of.
- [70:58]
Rob Mahoney
Like a big metal spider or something. Like we need something. This is the problem with the eventual face turns of all the villains as these shows go on. And yes, I think all three of those characters have very little and Natalie have all understandable reasons why they would ultimately come to side with are core macro data refiners. But if they do, you're going to have to introduce new villains, right? You're going to have to introduce like the the bigger bad to then overshadow the bads that we knew. And maybe the biggest bad is capitalism.
- [71:28]
Joe
Maybe it is religion. It's obviously capitalism, clearly. Pineapple bobbingmail.com pressy yep, pressytvpodify.com if you have any questions, comments or concerns about anything that we have outlined here today or feedback on my my decision to litter this table in front of me with open boxes. We will be back with more White Lotus coverage. Thanks so much. This this has been so fun. We only have a couple more episodes left. You guys have been like really crushing it with the severance emails, the severance theories. The Prestige TV feed is like really the joint is jumping and it's been really fun. We will be probably doing our plan is to do sort of like a live severance theory pod and I'll give you a little bit more information about that the closer we get to it. But I just wanted to put that on everyone's radar that Rob and I are going to do sort of like a before the finale live speculation fun thing and that's it. We'll see you soon. Bye.