Alan Sepinwall (3:02)

Yeah, you put my thoughts out on the street there, Joanna.

Joanna Robinson (3:04)

I did. It wasn't great of me. It wasn't very cool of me, but I did do that. But we can't really. There's a lot of. Can't really talk about that show very much, but it's awesome. And it premieres November 7th and Rob and I will be covering that show. So that is sort of what is coming up on the feed. Spoiler warning, I guess. Up through episode five of Slow Horses, though, Alan, Alan has seen the finale, but Alan is like, not going to talk about the finale other than, you.

Alan Sepinwall (3:28)

Know, I know it exists. I'm not going to tell you. Like, if people live, die, come back, whatever.

Joanna Robinson (3:34)

Okay. Alan Steppenwall.

Alan Sepinwall (3:38)

Yes.

Joanna Robinson (3:39)

What do you think of Slow Horses as a series so far? And then knowing that this is the last season with the showrunner, Will Smith, are you concerned at all about the future of Slow Horses after this season?

Alan Sepinwall (3:52)

It's always hard to say because, like, this is not a show where I've hung out in the writer's room or visited the set or anything like that, because they're across an ocean for me. I will say, as someone who read the first few books of the series, but I've not read the one that this season is based on. It always felt to me like they were doing such a good job of being relatively faithful to the books. And I imagine we'll be talking today about one of the big deviations from this one that, like, it's my guess is there's an architecture in place in order to go forward. And the source material that McCarron wrote gives them enough of a roadmap that they should be in good shape, you know, once Will is gone. But this is a show, it's one of my favorites and certainly one of the most reliable pleasures of the last few years that they come out every year at the same time with episodes. They usually already have a trailer for the next season. Like, you know, how is this even possible in this, the year of our Lord 2025.

Joanna Robinson (4:51)

Is this a show where, as a TV critic, you usually watch shows in advance so you can give a reliable critique of the season when you put out your review. Is this a show that you've always watched in sort of a binge, like, structure?

Alan Sepinwall (5:09)

Yes, it is. And, in fact, it's funny. This season, I, like, I'm still working at Rolling Stone when I got the episodes and I'm watching them, and I said to my editor, like, I really like this show. Maybe I should start recapping it. And their thought was, if we had not recapped the previous seasons, like, we wouldn't, you know, it's not worth it to jump in in season five. And so at that point, I'm like, okay, I will just watch this for pleasure. I'm not gonna take any notes or anything. And then what happened was I was no longer working at Rolling Stone, and I'm running like my own what's Ellen Watching? Newsletter. And I thought, oh, I can do whatever I want. I will start recapping Slow Horses. So then I went back and I rewatched all of the episodes so that I could take good notes in order to write these recaps. And, you know, I don't have a lot of time to do that these days, to watch things more than once. And it was so good and so pleasurable, and in some cases, because I knew what was coming. You know, like, the thing with the paint can, to be able to, like, go into that scene knowing where it was gonna go and seeing it unfold was really just an enormous amount of pleasure for me.

Joanna Robinson (6:10)

I will say that is like a TV moment that I really regret that we didn't get to record an incident reaction to that sort of incredible conclusion to that setup. So, I mean, you've already tipped that you're enjoying season five, but I'm curious, like, how does season five stack up to the other seasons for you? And. And is there ever a moment. It sounds like not, but is there ever a moment where this ever feels, like, repetitive? We're moving. The only reason I say that is because, you know, something that Will Smith likes to say and Gary Ullman likes to say is that the thing they love about Jackson Lamb is that he doesn't change as a character. They're like, the point of television is to arc a character, but these characters don't change very much, and we like that about it. And I think plenty of people like it about it. It's a reason people come back to procedurals again and again. There is something comforting about that. But I'm curious. In an age of prestige television where we're used to people having massive arcs or setups changing wildly, does the. Here, the slow horses are to fuck it up again but somehow come out on top by the end of the season. Is that formula, like, going to forever work? Is it currently working? How do you feel about it?

Alan Sepinwall (7:20)

It's currently working. I mean, I haven't, like, gone back and studied season by season. I do feel like there are some years I have liked more than others. I think probably last season with river and his dad and all of that. There's some very good stuff in there. But I would say as a whole, I didn't necessarily love it as much this season. Felt to me like, okay, this is the pure, unfiltered slow horses. This is exactly what I want. And they're leaning into certain things, like, it's the season of Roddy Ho, and that has been so funny. It's been the season of Shirley. Like, they're just really doing a lot of stuff and they're embracing the fact that River Cartwright kind of sucks. Like it's been. And we could talk about that too. But I really liked this year a lot. It's among my favorite of the show in terms of, like, whether it's too formulaic or too repetitive. I mean, this is what TV used to be. It wasn't necessarily like, we're gonna do a six episode season, but it was still, like you said, procedurals, you know, Columbo never changed. A lot of characters who are great characters, who still hold up to this day don't change very much. And this is a more serialized form of storytelling than that. I do think there's pleasure to be gained there. And I do think that even if Lamb, for the most part, doesn't change, there are characters around him who do and who go through enough evolutions that that's interesting. And you could certainly step back and say at a certain point, well, if Slough House has this many successes in a row, at a certain point, wouldn't the park take them seriously or take some of them back? And without spoiling what happens in the finale, I will say the finale does address this very question. And it does it in an interesting way that I thought, okay, yeah, I buy that. So even the show itself is aware that, like, it has to be really careful with this.

Joanna Robinson (9:02)

Well, I do want to come back to that river question, because I know that's something you wanted to talk about, but I would say that, you know, because we didn't have a chance to cover episode three. Something that was teased by the writers was we would learn more about Jackson Lamb's backstory this season. And we do get this monologue that Gary Oldman gives in episode three about, you know, he's talking about a Joe he once knew, but it's obviously himself, and he's using it as a sort of distraction tactic, but it reads as very sincere. And so even though we don't, you know, it's not like Jackson Lamb got a new apartment or a new girlfriend or whatever, he's like, he's the same. But we know more. Every season, we peel back another layer on this particularly stinking onion and, like, know a bit more about how he got the way that he is. And I think that is an interesting approach to that idea of, like, yeah, Columbo doesn't arc. Jessica Fletcher doesn't change. Like, you know, we stay the same, but we, the audience, see them maybe in a different light because we learn more information.

Alan Sepinwall (10:05)

No, I absolutely agree with that. And that's. I mean, that scene is incredible because that's the thing that you can do with Gary Oldman, but the thing you can also do with this show, which is this is a show where you can do the Rube Goldberg slapstick of the paint can falling, but you can also do the stuff last season with river dealing with his granddad's dementia. Like, it can be they're idiots, but there are real stakes to it. And, you know, when. When Marcus dies at the end of last season, that's both sort of a scary, intense moment, but also a sad moment. And it can be in a show that also has Roddy Ho. Roddy hoeing it up all over the place. So. And Gary Oldman in particular, he can do both. He can be, you know, he can weaponize a fart and do that monologue in the same episode. Like, he's, you know, he's one of our best.

Joanna Robinson (10:51)

Rob and I had talked about this a little bit at the beginning of the season. Jack Loudon, who has recently been cast as Mr. Darcy, like, is very cool, is married to Saoirse Ronan. Like, all this sort of stuff like that is, like, leading man sort of charisma and looks and all sort of stuff like that. And I love that he's willing to show up and be an absolute idiot on this show. And I love that, especially this season, which feels in contrast to last season, which I agree with you. It wasn't our favorite season either, where river is sort of Isolated off on his own ice flow of a story and is doing, you know, is still fucking up, but doing sort of somewhat more heroic content. Running around in like this very nice black coat here. He's wearing a dorky tracksuit because he got paint all over his clothing. Do you feel you, you were sort of raised to me before we started recording, like this idea that he's even more bumbling this season and whether or not that's landing with some people or how do you feel about it? What's your sense?

Alan Sepinwall (11:49)

Yeah, I mean, I, I, I've got a friend who, you know, works in television and likes the show, but wrote to me and said like, I'm really starting to worry they're making river too much of an idiot. And I kind of, I want to see some growth there and I want to see like him and, and Lamb have more of a relationship. And my response is I don't think that's what the show is. I think the show, all the people in Slough House are there for a reason. Like even Luisa, who is probably the most purely competent and level headed person. And we don't know whether or not she's going to come back. Luisa, she really messed up. We know her backstory. River, we saw how he messed up. And even if he was set up to do it by Taverner and by Spider, he still wildly overreacted to this. And he does this all the time and he's very headstrong. And because he looks like Jack Loudon and, and because his grandfather is his grandfather, he thinks he's James Bond. And he is not James Bond. You know, he's Mr. Bean or whatever he is. Yeah, Johnny English, whatever. The comparable, you know, more modern English version of that is, is, you know, and he thinks he's cool and every now and then he is cool. And every now and then he does something good. But he's there because he's a screw up. And they're all there because there's their screw ups. And Lamb, for all of his problems and all of his antisocial behavior, and sometimes he says insulting things just to manipulate people. But for the most part, when Lamb assesses someone, Lamb is right. Earlier this year he said, shirley is my only functioning Joe. And we've seen it. Shirley is the only one who knows what she's doing throughout this year among his underlings. So when Lamb refuses to trust river, there's a reason for that. And it's not because he's trying to bring the best out of him or because he's mean, it's because no, river is bad at this. And river, you know, helped create the circumstance under which, you know, gimbal died by paint can.

Joanna Robinson (13:43)

First of all, that is slight, I think Catherine Standish erasure Catherine is doing. She's not a Joe, but like she's, she's always competent, far more competent than anyone gives her credit, which I really love.

Alan Sepinwall (13:53)

Yeah. And she throws, she throws the water bottle that saves Jaffrey. So she. Yeah. I do not want to disrespect Catherine. I just mean in terms of like the field agency type people.

Joanna Robinson (14:02)

Totally. And I think, I love your assessment. I think River Cartwright has always been a handsome Nepo baby. And it's been harder for us to understand that because of the scenes that he shared with Jonathan Pryce and because Louis, you know, if you strip Jonathan Pryce out of the show though, he gets to show up on the other side of the phone in this episode and you take Louisa away, like you take these sort of like competent characters around river away. I feel like the fact that he actually fits in with the co's and the Shirleys becomes more obvious and that. So I do, I agree. I don't think he's any less competent. He just doesn't have the structure around him that usually makes him look a bit more competent than he is, if that makes sense.

Alan Sepinwall (14:51)

So, yeah, I mean, he sort of, he rises or falls to the level of his surroundings to a degree.

Joanna Robinson (14:59)

On the Louisa front, this is, you know, I'm just, I'm raising this on behalf of Rob because Louisa is Rob's favorite and when she left at the beginning of the season, we were like, surely she'll be back by episode three or something like that. But like, no, Louisa, she's still in the main credits for the show. There's no announcement that this character has left the show. I don't need you to spoil anything about the finale. But it just sort of like, I will just say, are you missing that character this season or, or how do you feel about her absence?

Alan Sepinwall (15:28)

I really like Louise a lot as a character. I do miss her in the sense that again, she's good and the actress is very good in the role. But I do think that there is some value to be gained in. Basically, it's a very small team this year. They're outmanned more than usual and they all kind of suck. And so I think if you had the level headed person in there with everybody else, I don't know that the story would be playing out the way that it is. And I do remember when the Pit happened earlier this year and Dr. Robbie sends Collins home and then the mass casualty happens. He keeps saying, oh, obviously Collins is going to come back. She's going to show up and save the day. And no. And now she's not even on the.

Joanna Robinson (16:09)

Show anymore, never to return at all to the show.

Alan Sepinwall (16:12)

And again, I'm not going to spoil whether or not Louisa is in the finale, but I'm just saying there is precedent for this sort of thing. Even in this year of television.

Joanna Robinson (16:20)

I do have, without having actually any finale information, I will say for the book readers. I know I have seen allusions to. There's a theory that they're using her character in the way that they use another character and that she will come back in the way that another character did or something like that. So there's hope for the Louisa lovers out there. But I personally definitely miss her and I was sort of shocked that she was taken out of the story because I haven't read all the way through London Rules, but I've read, you know, I've been trying to, like, keep pace with the show, with the book, and she's in it. So, you know, they're doing something different and they haven't announced that the actress is leaving. So I just have some questions about that.

Alan Sepinwall (17:06)

Look, I'm still waiting for Olivia Cook to come back. There you go.

Joanna Robinson (17:08)

So, yeah, she's in Westeros. Can't help her. Okay, Episode five, Circus. I wanted to check. Okay, I want to check in with you about CO who just helped kill a guy and gets to do a lot of business with Cherries in this episode, how he's working for you as a camera. I love Tom Brooke. I loved him since he showed up on Sherlock. He's just been around in British television for a really long time. I'm a big fan of his. When he got cast last season, I was really excited and I've been kind of waiting for. For CO to emerge from the shadows as a real character. I think pairing him with river in this season has been extremely good. And I think the stuff with them in the car or Jackson assessing his sort of post coital glow after having caused a death, if we want to put it that way, absolutely delighted me. How are you feeling about CO Oh, I love him.

Alan Sepinwall (18:04)

He's just like you say. Tom Brook has such an interesting look and screen presence and especially when he's playing a character that is this unhinged and is meant to creep everyone around him out as much as he Does. It's just. It's a perfect kind of match of actor and character. He's really funny. And river just being completely unnerved. Like, why have they paired me with this just absolute lunatic, you know, who I want to jump out of my skin every time I'm around him and he's pulling out push knives and he's doing all of the things. And yet he's also. I mean, it's sort of this slow horses thing where all of them are good at one thing at least. You know, ho is a complete idiot with people, but he's a genius with computers. Ko is right about the destabilization plan. He's been talking about this for weeks and it took forever for the others to finally start paying attention to it. But at the same time, like, he clearly has anesthetized whatever emotions he ever had in this world. And so he's completely untroubled by the fact that, you know, he helped cause Gimbal's death and, you know, he's enjoying some cherries and he's not going to give river his change for it. And that's.

Joanna Robinson (19:12)

That's delightful, I think, also. Yeah. In addition to sort of being quicker on the uptake about the destabilization, I also deeply enjoy every single psychological profile that he has crafted for the people around him. Like, this is something that he does, right? Is he like reads river to filth essentially, and he's just sort of like, but this is who you are. Don't you see? Doesn't everyone see? And that's, that's also, I think, underlining the River Cartwright fuckup, you know, storyline this season is just sort of co. Speaking truth about. Which Louisa has done in the past as well, about River's like, many hang ups. And it's really fun.

Alan Sepinwall (19:50)

Yeah. I mean, I think it, it helps to a let the others horses be right about things. But also like, he's not the only one doing this. Shirley did this to him when they were like at the nightclub. Lamb does it to him all the time. So it's just, it's a fun thing where again, you take the guy who is coded as the leading man and you just keep humbling him over and over and over again. And he does have, you know, moments of genuine emotion. Not so much this season. This season he's just, you know, the pretty fool. And that's great. And, you know, we'll see what next.

Joanna Robinson (20:21)

Year brings for him is actively killing someone or passively, if you prefer, with the paint can is being as involved in this death as they are. A step too far for the slow horses. Fuck it up again, or does this just feel completely par for the course for you?

Alan Sepinwall (20:41)

Honestly, I feel more troubled by, like, Ho having broken into the MI5 systems and leaving them as vulnerable as they are up through the end of this episode. Like, a lot of the time you watch the show and you say, well, how. How are these people going to avoid getting fired? Or, you know, on almost any kind of professional drama, people will do things and you're like, well, there's no way they can come back from that. And then the show will contort itself and come up with an excuse for them to. People to keep working together. I feel like Ho has already been banished to Slough House and now he has confessed to this. Like, really, would Taverner ever let him be in any way affiliated with MI5 again? I won't say how they address this or if they address this in the finale, but, like, that's the thing I've been asking for a while you. Compared to that Cohen gimbal feels kind of small potatoes. Like, and maybe it's. Maybe it's just because I kind of, you know, was very happy when the paint can fell on Gimbal. Like, that was not among us. That was not. No good was going to come of Gimbal continuing to be alive. So.

Joanna Robinson (21:44)

On the, you know, we already mentioned David, Jonathan Price's character, you know, had a. Had a big storyline last season, was, like, deeply involved in the main plot line, was out in the field, not just in his idyllic country home, but, like, sort of out in the field with Catherine and all this other stuff like that this season, relegated to sort of on the other side of the phone cameo level so far. I have to say, though, maybe it's just because I just recently watched what was the Netflix movie based on the.

Alan Sepinwall (22:14)

Richard Oslo books, Tuesday Murder Club, where he's playing basically the same guy.

Joanna Robinson (22:18)

Yeah. And I'm just like, actually, I would never not listen to the dementia ramblings of Jonathan Pryce, because he's always right when he says to river, you know, basically, like, the bees. The honey trap. No, they do it again. To me, that's telling me Tara is there to actively honey trap Claude. And then the. I think this is. This is the most interesting thing that happens in this episode is the, like, Tara reveal.

Alan Sepinwall (22:47)

Yeah.

Joanna Robinson (22:48)

But given that David says that so early in the episode, and then I feel like we're with him on that, I feel like then it was almost treated as Like a re. It was like prolonged, like, drawn out of her asking, sort of like, well, how are you going to track me? Or, well, this, that and the other thing. And then it just becomes this. My beloved Emma Flight has fucked it up again. She definitely belongs in Slough House. Claude is fucked it up again. He belongs nowhere near the service. But. But do you know what I mean? It felt like it was being treated as a surprise when I feel like they tipped it a little early in the episode. What do you think?

Alan Sepinwall (23:24)

I mean, it's an interesting scene because I remember watching that, and it's always the cliche of that kind of character. And it's the same one that he does in Tuesday Murder Club, where it's like, you can never tell if they're being genuinely lucid and insightful or if, like, they're talking about something they watched on television, you know, two minutes ago.

Joanna Robinson (23:42)

Right.

Alan Sepinwall (23:42)

And. And river interprets the conversation as the latter. And so, like, you can certainly be inclined to go with him on that. And it's like you start watching the scene, oh, he's talking about honey traps. And then you come out of it like, no, no. River wanted to hear something, then realized, like, he was trying too hard. And so then you can push it away. And I think the actress playing Tara is pretty convincing when she's playing, you know, oh, no, they forced me. They forced me. Please save me, Claude Whelan. Please save me, Claude Whelan. And what an idiot he is. I'm trying to find what the line is. Lamb says you should bring forward your resignation before you die of shame working for that.

Joanna Robinson (24:25)

Love to be called a vat by Jackson Lamb. Yeah.

Alan Sepinwall (24:28)

Yes.

Joanna Robinson (24:30)

And then we get Molly, who has been, you know, central to the show, shoved aside, shoved out of the service, essentially, that we find out inside of this episode. But we do get to see her again. I think it is really interesting the way in which this show will shuffle the deck on characters, you know what I mean, in terms of not just turnover, but sort of move someone to the side and still use them, but sort of down grade their status inside of the show, but not just, like, cut that actor loose and we never see them again. Do you know what I mean? Which is different from, like, a lot of other shows when they say, like, we wouldn't keep this character around just to show up for a scene. We just wouldn't use them. Do you know?

Alan Sepinwall (25:12)

Yeah. And I mean, and there are definitely people from Slough House itself who have either died or just. They're not around Anymore. But I do like that they've. They keep their options open. And so I'm trying to remember the actor's name, the guy from All Creatures Great and Small who, like, who came back this year. He used to be the defense minister.

Joanna Robinson (25:29)

Who plays Peter Judd. Yeah, yeah, Peter Judd. Yeah.

Alan Sepinwall (25:31)

So Peter Judd comes back and he's doing a new job, and Taverner is once again, like, exasperated having to deal with this moron. But it's in a different context. And so I think they kind of both the people who make the show. But I'm assuming, you know, Jud comes back in the book as well. Like, Mick Herron kind of understands this is a relatively insular world, and even if people take different jobs, they're still. They're getting the other job because of their original affiliation.

Joanna Robinson (25:57)

Right.

Alan Sepinwall (25:57)

You know, with MI5 or the government. And so therefore, they're going to cross.

Joanna Robinson (26:01)

Paths again and again, their access. And there is. Yeah, there's just something about being in that echelon of the world that you don't necessarily ever leave it. You just move to a different part of it, but you still have access to it. Yeah. And it does. It makes the world feel real and populated. Right. That just, like Amali doesn't disappear or Peter Judd doesn't disappear. We miss. We miss Min Harper, we miss Marcus. Like, those people are dead, but there are people who are still around. And I hope for you that Olivia Cook is one of those people that. I would love that for you.

Alan Sepinwall (26:31)

Well, I mean, it's treated as a mystery that they're going to come back to in the first season, and then they just don't, so. And, you know, unfortunately, she is very, very busy.

Joanna Robinson (26:42)

Did you watch the. The Robin Wright thing that she did?

Alan Sepinwall (26:46)

I. I did. I thought she was.

Joanna Robinson (26:49)

It's. It doesn't.

Alan Sepinwall (26:50)

Look, I was. It's. It's really not my jam in terms of, like, that genre. And yet I was kind of engaged with it for quite a while. The problem is it's.

Joanna Robinson (26:58)

It.

Alan Sepinwall (26:59)

It keeps going back and forth between, like, who is the bad guy in this situation? And at a certain point, they really need to get shit or get off the pot. And I think, like, both. First they play one card too soon, and then they kind of try to backtrack it and, you know, are hedging their bets. So then by the time you get to the end, it was frustrating at the end, but Cook is really good and Wright is, you know, Robin.

Joanna Robinson (27:24)

Right.

Alan Sepinwall (27:24)

Yeah, but it's dumb.

Joanna Robinson (27:26)

Olivia Cook is always good. I mean. Yeah. But it's. It's a. I feel like I knew exactly what that show was, and there's definitely a time that you want to watch exactly that show. Do you know what I mean?

Alan Sepinwall (27:37)

Yeah. And it's funny because it's like. It's a dumb beach read. And yet I think they debuted in, like, right after the summer.

Joanna Robinson (27:42)

Yeah.

Alan Sepinwall (27:42)

So.

Joanna Robinson (27:43)

Yeah. All right. The Libyan terrorists angle that we have.

Alan Sepinwall (27:49)

Oh, boy. Oh, boy.

Joanna Robinson (27:51)

Which I wrote in my notes. How Back to the Future. So in the book, these are. It's a North Korean sort of contingent of people, right?

Alan Sepinwall (28:02)

Yeah.

Joanna Robinson (28:02)

And they opted not to go with that. I have not seen any interviews of them addressing sort of exactly why they made that change. But I think after. After a season of a very specific big bad in Hugo Weaving's character, how are you feeling about this, like, fairly stereotypical and anonymized group of Libyan terrorists outside of Tara, who is, like, her own thing and interesting. But we've got these just guys in a van. And especially when you think about season one, which was, like, a group of guys who wind up in a van, but we spent enough time with them where we, like, really understood a bit more about there. They've established some, like, I have some reservations about what we're doing, but I don't feel like we spent enough time with these guys, perhaps because they were trying to hide the ball on Tara or. I don't know why.

Alan Sepinwall (28:49)

Yeah.

Joanna Robinson (28:50)

That. Then they just seem like we cut back to them in whatever van or parking lot or whatever they're plotting, and I just don't feel like I know them or care about them. And so then they just become this, like, kind of homogenized stereotype thing that I feel a little weird about.

Alan Sepinwall (29:03)

You know, I. I'm 100% on board with you with all of that. Like, when I take pretty detailed notes when I watch episodes of shows and I try to. Either if I know the character's name, I refer to them by the character name, or I try to, like, figure out, okay, this guy's the. This guy's the leader. This guy's whatever. And, like, I think six different times I've changed my mind on. Wait, this guy's the leader? No, this guy's the leader. This guy, like, doesn't want to be there. Oh, no, wait, maybe he does. Like, it's just. It's very. It's so vague who they're supposed to be that I'm kind of grasping at straws. And there's stuff that happens in the finale where, like, One person does something, and I'm like, that seems the complete opposite of what little I felt I understood about them previously in. When we've seen these guys in the van, it's really. It's definitely the one big misstep with this season is how generic and interchangeable and vague these guys are.

Joanna Robinson (29:53)

I think it's interesting. Again, I haven't seen the finale, so I don't know how this all wraps up, but I, you know, I've been sort of dipping into the subreddits about this, and I try to sort of, like, see what I can see how the book readers are feeling. You know what I mean? Even if I don't have the information they have, like, how are they enjoying these significant changes? And I do not pretend to know enough about geopolitics to comment with any authority on this, but there seems to be some objection to swapping Libya for North Korea in that there's something about North Korea's relationship with England versus Libya's relationship with England that makes the story make more sense to the book readers if it's North Korea. And again, I'm just introducing, knowing what I'm talking about, so you can prestige tvspotify.com if you do know, like, whether or not we should object to this. But I just think it's interesting to make this significant choice, and I am very curious to hear if they, like, have any reason why they want to share why they made that choice, you know?

Alan Sepinwall (30:57)

Yeah, there's just. There's such a long history in Western entertainment of, like, generic Middle Eastern, like, terrorists and bad guys. And it can be done interestingly and it can be done with nuance, but, like, unless you're gonna do that, you really kind of have to pick a different bad guy because, like, the audience is just so conditioned to assume, oh, this again.

Joanna Robinson (31:19)

Exactly, exactly. And then the last thing that I have on my agenda is that, you know, recently we just. On this feed, we dipped into the world of Battlestar Galactica, which just made us really excited to spend more time with James Callis as Claude Whelan. And I just want to celebrate Claude's face when he finds out that Gimble is dead. He's in the elevator. Diana Tavener is, like, closer to the camera. He's over her shoulder. And we just get to see, silently watch his face as he celebrates and then tries to get it under control, the news that Gimbal has died. And I just want. I mean, James Callis face has always been one of the most enjoyable things to watch on television. Like just Gaius Baltar is like an all timer of a TV character. And so I feel so lucky that we get to spend time with him here. And I just wanted to not let that moment go unremarked upon. Is there anything you want to celebrate about Claire? Claude Whelan or James Callis in general?

Alan Sepinwall (32:15)

I mean he's definitely. There's a lot of people from BSG who I wish had gone on to do more stuff because, you know, more high profile stuff. Everyone's obviously still working, but because when you watch that show they're all like given these, you know, 12 course meal or they make 12 course meals out of the stuff that they're given. And you know, most of them have not had that opportunity since then. This is maybe the most high profile thing I've at least watched him in, in those days. And he's having so much fun and he is so much fun to watch and I'm really glad of it. Even though he's an idiot. I mean, let's look at it this way. Who are the people on the show who actually know what they're doing? There's Taverner, Diana. Yeah, there's Lamb Ho is good at computers but bad at everything else.

Joanna Robinson (32:59)

Who I always stump for Catherine, even though she's so like passive and so paralyzed by her own like issues, the alcoholism, all of that sort of stuff to be like highly effective. But when she's used, she's always on it. But yeah, in terms of like functioning at a high level, it's Diana and Jack. It's a two hander. It's the people who meet on benches near canals. You know what I mean?

Alan Sepinwall (33:26)

Cause I mean you were complaining or you were lamenting before that Emma Flight keeps messing up. And that's. It's funny cause I remember when I recapped like the first or second episode of the show, I was sort of comparing her to Shirley because here's Shirley running around in like this 50 year old windbreaker or whatever it is. And Flight shows up at the crime scene and she's in like this tailored suit and she's so cool and collected and she's dealing with this local idiot very well.

Joanna Robinson (33:49)

Yeah.

Alan Sepinwall (33:49)

And you're like, oh, Emma Flight's awesome. And then you keep watching this, he's like, no, no, she's just as bad as everybody else. She just looks better than they do.

Joanna Robinson (33:56)

Exactly.

Alan Sepinwall (33:56)

It's sort of. It's a river cart.

Joanna Robinson (33:58)

Female river cart, right? Yeah, absolutely.

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Joanna Robinson (35:01)

All right, anything else you want to say about this episode? Specifically? Specifically or so horses in general?

Alan Sepinwall (35:05)

No, this. I mean, this has been a really fun season. And like you, I'm curious what the show is like without Will Smith. There will be a trailer at the end of this one for what they're doing next.

Joanna Robinson (35:14)

Oh, they have a trailer on the finale.

Alan Sepinwall (35:16)

They do. They do have a trailer. Yeah. They work far enough ahead. These are professionals we're dealing with and so hopefully they will continue to be professionals even when he's gone.

Joanna Robinson (35:24)

Okay, let us talk about Apple's sort of big quote unquote rebranding effort that it seems that they're making. Before we get into sort of the, the idea of the self described rebrand, I, I wanted to raise with you this question that, that you know, Rob and I have grappled with. We've. We've sort of talked to Bill about it a bit. This idea of what is Apple's current identity pre rebrand. Like. So when you look at. Let me, let me give you my sense and then you let me know if, if you disagree. So we have some massive shows on Apple, right? There's Severance is a massive show this year. I wouldn't say the studio was a massive show, but it was like an awards friendly show. So you know it. Yeah, it, it burnishes their legacy in that way. Ted Lasso is. The shambling corpse of. Ted Lasso is coming back to Apple so that, you know, that's a big thing for them. Oh, Boy, the morning show still exists. Your friends and neighbors, I don't think was quite what they wanted to be. Nor was Jason the Jason Momoa chief of war. And that is the narrative more than anything else is like, app has a few of these sort of monoculture piercing moments and then just an avalanche of content that people aren't even aware exists.

Alan Sepinwall (36:39)

Yes.

Joanna Robinson (36:40)

You know, and we're very excited for Pluribus coming up. Like, I'm so excited for that show. I hope it permeates the way that Severance did. I'm sure that Apple is hoping it permeates the way that Severance. Yeah, it's a. It's a streaming platform that has been very sci fi friendly. So, you know, a lot of, like, people love foundation or, you know, Silo or there's a number of other options on that front. But something that Bill pointed out when you were talking about this around your friends and neighbors is what Apple is often after is a tile they can put on their landing page that has a face you recognize. And you're like, yes, oh, there's Vince Vaughn. Oh, there's Jon Hamm. Oh, there's Seth Rogen. Click, you know, and I will watch this. But other than that, a thing that I know that those of us in sort of the coverage of TV community have lamented since the beginning is that Apple, were you there with us at that presentation that they gave at Apple HQ up in the Bay Area when they, like, first launched? Okay, that was one of the most bizarre events I've ever been to. But what it, what it. They bundled the announcement of Apple TV with like the launch of the Apple credit card or the launch of the Apple Arcade. You know, it wasn't a TV event, was like a here's our latest product event. And we've got Steven Spielberg and Oprah here. But, like, but we don't know what TV is necessarily. And that's been sort of the question is like they were trying to disrupt tv, a thing that I remember them saying. I think Tim Cook said this at the presentation was just sort of like, we're in everyone's pockets already, on their devices, on their phones. So that's the advantage we have. We're already there, so that's gonna be our way in. But I remember everyone who was there, who was. Who was someone who writes about television for a living was like, but do you know about how we talk about TV or how we present TV or how we make sure people know what these shows are? Yeah, so that was a, that was a Long ramble. But I'm just curious like, what your assessment is of, of what Apple has been doing before we talk about what they plan to do next.

Alan Sepinwall (38:48)

Yeah, well, it's interesting. They're obviously, they're pouring just, you know, fortunes into these shows while also not necessarily, like you said, making people aware of them. Like, I have no idea what foundation costs, but like, unless you're like a really serious nerd, you don't know that the show exists. I wrote a thing a couple weeks ago on what's Ellen Watching? It was called Shows that Don't Exist, where it's like these things that come with like big bonafides and it's not that they're flopped, it's just like no one really notices them and they go away. And it feels like I could have made that entire list just out of Apple shows. They had a show from Alfonso Cuaron with Cate Blanchett, which we covered on.

Joanna Robinson (39:28)

This feed that did not really exist. I agree with you.

Alan Sepinwall (39:31)

Yeah. Which I kind of liked. But it does not exist. And they do a lot of these. And I mean, I think it's very comparable to what Amazon does, which is. And it's funny that they've gotten rid of the plus and it's now both the device and the service are both gonna be called Apple tv because it does feel to me like when I will open up the device, they're not just trying to serve me Ted Lasso and the other originals, they're just trying to serve me everything. They wanna be your one stop shopping for any of the video content you're consuming. And so like, if you happen to want to watch, you know, for all mankind or something, you can. But if you just wanna use them to, you know, rent something else or add a subscription to HBO Max through Apple, they're happy to take your money that way too. And I feel like maybe because of that they're not as keen to, you know, promote their stuff or they assume kind of like Netflix does that just people will open up the app and get served whatever it is Apple wants to show them. And that's really all they need to do. But it. Some shows have penetrated, some have not. And so I don't necessarily know how well that's working for them and I don't know how well it's going to work now that like they've. I worry that like changing the name and getting rid of the plus and so now the device and the service have the same name. Maybe it makes more sense or maybe it just Confuses people even more.

Joanna Robinson (40:51)

Right. I want something. This is purely anecdotal my own experience. I do not know if this is a universal versal experience, but something I've noticed lately is that when I get. It used to be that I do own an Apple TV device. This is not an ad for Apple tv, but I do own an Apple TV device. And sometimes if I'm being profoundly lazy and I'm like looking for a movie I want, I can use the audio feature on my, on my remote and just say the name of the movie. And it used to be that they would pull up what platform it's streaming on that you can watch it on. Right. So it's just sort of like, oh yeah, this is streaming on Hulu, this is streaming on hbo. Now what I've noticed and maybe I just need to delete Pluto TV off my television. But they always funnel me to Pluto tv, which is an ad, you know, which is an ad supported platform. Or I don't, I don't pay for Pluto TV that doesn't have ads. And so maybe I'll start watching Clueless on Pluto tv, which I did, you know, a couple weeks ago we were watching Clueless and then the ads kick in and you get so frustrated. And I think what they're hoping, this is my conspiracy theory. I think what they're hoping is that I will get frustrated, not take the next step and just go and rent it on Apple tv.

Alan Sepinwall (42:03)

Yes.

Joanna Robinson (42:03)

When it's streaming for free on Hulu. And I have Hulu. And so then I just need to do that one Google search really to find out where is this streaming for one of the many platforms that I pay for already, so I don't have to rent it from Apple. But I, I'm like, I'm very suspicious about them funneling all these searches to Pluto. And that was sort of the best answer I could come up with with.

Alan Sepinwall (42:25)

I have to assume that none of these devices are ever going to allow for a Just Watch app.

Joanna Robinson (42:30)

I know.

Alan Sepinwall (42:30)

Because that is always my best friend with this kind of thing.

Joanna Robinson (42:34)

It's true. It's true. Okay. And then the other question I wanted to ask you about this is outside of what we're about to talk about in terms of the Apple rebranding is Presumed Innocent is an interesting thing they're about to do, which is sort of an a franchise IP move that they haven't quite done yet. Right. Because they're doing another season of Presumed Innocent. But it's a different, you know, because they've burned through the source material. So it's a different lead, you know, it's a different story. But we're still calling it Presumed Innocent so that, you know, not that Rachel Brosnahan isn't a face that I would click on if I saw that tile on Apple tv. But like, Jake Gyllenhaal was how they sold Presumed Innocent to people. And now I feel like they're using Presumed Innocent, perhaps that brand to sell the next season to people. And that's not something they've tried yet. But I'm interested what you think of that.

Alan Sepinwall (43:26)

I mean, there's definitely precedent for that. Not on Apple, but other places. You know, Billy Bob Thornton, big name when they did Fargo season one. Patrick Wilson @ the time, you know, was not nearly as big a name when they did season two. But by then it was Fargo, you know, and they could do that. So I'm curious, I'm curious about almost everything they do. And it feels like a lot of the time when something of theirs breaks through, other than maybe the morning show, which they just pour an ungodly amount of money in and just keep hiring famouses for, like, it just feels like when things for them break through, it's more by accident than, like, oh, we obviously know this is going to be a big hit and we're going to push everything behind it.

Joanna Robinson (44:07)

Yeah. And I mean, we should say Slow Horses is a, you know, an award season and general, like, hit for them and a great show. And, like, you know, I love a lot of their shows. You know, it's not like they. It's not like Netflix where I get frustrated by the popularity of some of their content because it's so. They so clearly don't care often, not always, but often don't care and just throw anything at the wall to see what sticks. That's.

Alan Sepinwall (44:32)

Yeah. Even the, even the things I don't really like, you know, I didn't really like you. I didn't really think your Friends and neighbors worked. But it doesn't feel like Ryan Murphy level.

Joanna Robinson (44:41)

Right, Right. Exactly.

Alan Sepinwall (44:42)

Yeah.

Joanna Robinson (44:42)

Okay. So it was reported a number of places, but I'm drawing most of this from, from a Hollywood Reporter piece on the, quote, new Apple tv. Right. And the company has called the change getting rid of the plus, which I'll miss. The Apple, the company is called the Change, that, quote, vibrant new identity. And it comes with a number of other things that they're doing, which is bundling with Peacock, the great rebundling that is happening of all these streaming platforms. Slowly but surely, we will go back to just the cable model. They made a deal with F1. You know, maybe we can thank Brad Pitt for that. I don't know. But they've decided to bring F1 to the Apple platform. It's a hugely. Obviously, I don't thrive in the world of sports, but I know that F1 is hugely popular. So this is like a big get for them. Right. And. And then they're. They've already bumped up the price 30% and then they're just trying to like sort of branch out to some of these other. Get their tendrils out there into some of the other streaming platforms. So, you know, do all of these moves make sense to you? As someone who has watched the. The TV business or the streaming wars?

Alan Sepinwall (45:53)

I, I really, I wish I under. If I understood any of these businesses, I feel like I would be doing just much better in my life than I am. But it's. I, I don't know. I think that leaning into sports is obviously that's the way that everybody's going because it's the one. It's. It used to be the thinking in the 2010s was like, you've got to have a great original scripted show. That's your killer app. And then people will subscribe to this or subscribe to that, or Even in the 2000s, if you're like some random out of the way basic cable channel like amc, if you get a. A Mad Men, people will start watching you. And now it just feels like the audience is so divided that sports is the one thing you can still count on to draw people in. Even the people who are, you know, spending most of their time on TikTok or Instagram Reels or whatever. I will still like watch an actual television program, even if it's a sports program. So I get that. I, I really don't know.

Joanna Robinson (46:50)

I also, and again, I know I work for the ringer, but as everyone knows, I don't know what I'm talking about when I talk about sports, but it strikes me as sports. Having been in the houses of my ringer colleagues and knowing that most of them have. The people who cover sports seriously have like multiple monitors knowing that they watch multiple games at once. Sports seems to me to be the ultimate background watching sort of experience. Right. You can put F1 on and you're not glued to it every single second. You can be scrolling TikTok and look up when F1 gets interesting. But then Apple gets the benefit of you just having it on. It is. You are streaming their Content and that they don't care if you're watching it with all of your attention, you're. It's just there, you know.

Alan Sepinwall (47:31)

Yeah. When they show a Yankee game and I've got a. I've got to put on Apple TV to watch the Yankees play. That's a three hour game.

Joanna Robinson (47:36)

Yeah.

Alan Sepinwall (47:37)

A lot of dead time there. And yet I have. Will have it on for three hours like a chump.

Joanna Robinson (47:41)

Yeah. So, yeah, like this is what it, this is what it means to watch sports. Sports. And so there, there's the like, have to watch it live aspect of, of, you know, wanting, you know, like the sports hook is really interesting to me in terms of like the monoculture, the communal experience that you have to watch live. Like all of these sort of things that are dwindling that still only belong occasionally to like HBO Sunday nights and stuff like that. That is just like an interesting hook that, that some of these platforms are chasing. So Apple just did a major price hike. HBO today. We're recording this on Tuesday. HBO just like bumped up their price, effective immediately.

Alan Sepinwall (48:20)

Thanks, Aslav. He's just the best guy, isn't he?

Joanna Robinson (48:23)

We love Dave on this show. We love him so much. So, yeah, I mean, the streaming wars continue apace. I am very curious to see how Apple does and I say all of that knowing that we're about to spend the next several weeks talking about an Apple show that I am very, very excited about and I know is going to be great and I hope that other people watch.

Alan Sepinwall (48:42)

You know, it's interesting though, and this is something that basically you can only get away with if you are Vince Gilligan, which is. It's very expensive. They filmed like all around the world. It is a wholly original idea. It is not based on ip. Vince is not really letting them market what the show is about, which is one of the reasons that we have to keep talking around it. And the lead is one of the great actors alive, Rhea Seehorn. She is not famous. She is not a star. Like, if you were not one of the people who watched Better Call Saul, you probably don't know who she is. So, like, you can't. She's not one of those people like a ham or a Vince Vaughn where you can just put her face on the tile and go, oh, I want to see that. And maybe this show makes her into that person, but she's not that yet. So you are selling this show 1000% on from the creator of Breaking Bad. Will this work? I hope it works, but I don't.

Joanna Robinson (49:36)

Know I mean, it's. I completely agree with you. Vince Gilligan is the draw more than anything else. The teasers have been, like, I think, intriguing to people. Yes, but very certainly, you know, and some. It's always interesting to me when a creator leaves their home network, you know, so for him to leave AMC and. And to go to Apple. And it seems very clear to me that Apple really hopes this is another severance. Yeah. And I hope that too. I would love for this to be as big of a hit as severance is.

Alan Sepinwall (50:14)

You know, I want. I want good things, and also I just. I want original things. Like, I mean, that's the case with severance as well. You know, whatever ups and down downs it has, it's a new idea. It's not based on anything else. And it, you know, if this works, I don't expect it to suddenly inspire every executive in town to be like, oh, give me your original material. But at least it might make them less hesitant to listen to that kind of pitch.

Joanna Robinson (50:40)

And, you know, for what it's worth, again, your Friends and Neighbors didn't super work for me. But that's a. That's an original idea. The studio's original idea, you know, like, Apple is not, despite what I just said about Presumed Innocent, not relying super heavily on. On IP at the moment, so, you know, versus amc, which is like all in on the Anne Rice universe, which to me is thrilling because I love Interview with a Vampire, but, like, I don't really care about.

Alan Sepinwall (51:06)

I need to catch up on that. I really need to catch up on that one. Okay.

Joanna Robinson (51:10)

It's so good.

Alan Sepinwall (51:10)

Okay.

Joanna Robinson (51:11)

Okay. Well, that has been Slow Horses, episode five, check in. And a little state of the, you know, state of Apple and their rebrand effort, which I'm very curious to see about. Alan Sepamol, where can folks find you if they want more of your thoughts?

Alan Sepinwall (51:28)

These days, I'm primarily writing at my own site, what's Alan Watching? Which is easy enough to find. @whatsallanwatching.com I'm doing recaps, including of Slow Horses, the Lowdown at the moment, and I'm reviewing stuff. I'm doing interviews. I'll be covering Pluribus Weekly as well. And so, you know, come find me there.

Joanna Robinson (51:47)

I'm Joanna Robinson. We will be back with the Slow Horses finale is sort of our next planned prestige TV episode. So that's a whole week until you hear from us again. Rob Mahoney should be back. He really wants to be. I know. Thank you to Kevin Pooler. Thank you to Justin sales and we'll see you soon. Bye.

James (Raider of the Lost Podcast Host) (52:16)

Happy fall movie season, James. Horror is booming, but Oscar contenders are about to hit theaters. Marty Supreme, Springsteen, Deliver Me From Nowhere, Wicked for Good and Bugonia. Don't forget blockbusters like Avatar, Fire and Ash, Predator, Badlands and Five Nights at Freddy's too. Those will be huge. We'll cover those movies every week this fall on our podcast, which is called Raiders of the Lost Podcast. Raiders of the Lost Podcast. Watch or listen on Spotify.