‘Task’ Episode 6 With Creator Brad Ingelsby

Summary

The Prestige TV Podcast — ‘Task’ Episode 6 Recap & Brad Ingelsby Interview

Date: October 13, 2025
Hosts: Chris Ryan, Bill Simmons, Joanna Robinson
Guest: Brad Ingelsby (creator/showrunner of "Task")

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Episode Overview

This episode of The Prestige TV Podcast delivers a deep-dive recap and instant analysis of "Task" episode 6, a pivotal, action-packed chapter. Hosts Chris Ryan and Bill Simmons break down major story turns, character deaths, heavy thematic elements, and speculate on the show's upcoming finale. The episode also features an insightful interview with creator Brad Ingelsby, who discusses narrative choices, casting, motifs, and what makes “Task” tick.

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Key Discussion Points and Insights

1. The Consequences of Episode 6 – The Penultimate "Explosion"

(01:34–07:05)

• Both Robbie (Tom Pelfrey) and Lizzie (Alison Oliver), core characters, die within the first 15 minutes, setting a dark and unpredictable tone.
• Discussion of how contemporary TV has shifted to make the episode before the finale the "action episode" (e.g., "Game of Thrones," "Sopranos"), concentrating the biggest moments before the finale.
  • Chris: “Now it feels like pretty standard. Although in this case, it's the sixth episode.” (02:21)
  • Bill: “I was a little surprised about how much happened in this episode… There's so much episode, like the finale. There's so much.” (02:38)

2. Recap of Major Deaths: Execution, Impact, and Aftermath

(03:41–09:20)

• Robbie’s Death:
  • Intense struggle and ambiguity—viewers initially unsure whether he killed his adversary or was himself mortally wounded.
  • Chris: “I thought that was the single best moment of the season. When he's killing Jason and he's like, 'fucking die.' And then all of a sudden, his eyes go up... you just see the knife sticking up.” (04:02)
  • The car scene with Tom recalls “Heat”—Robbie fatally wounded but shares a moving vision of escape and family.
  • Bill: “I thought his death was really good. Like, the music was really good. He flashes to the kids. He flashes to Maeve... that was a great death scene.” (05:32)
• Lizzie’s Death:
  • Sudden, tragic, and shocking—struck by a car after finally overcoming her hesitance in a firefight.
  • Hosts praise the sound design (ringing in her ears), the abruptness, and the tragedy of her not getting a "proper" death scene.
  • Chris: “There's no death scene for Lizzie. She's just dead.” (08:33)
• Both deaths establish immediate emotional stakes for the finale.

3. Grasso as the Emerging Antihero/Villain

(09:28–15:00)

• Grasso's (Fabien Frankel) evolution from ambiguous cop to “just evil,” though Bill makes the case that he’s more layered, wracked with guilt, and possibly sympathetic.
  • Bill: “All season, he's been asking Tom about God and faith … he feels like a guy who made a mistake and then kept making those mistakes.”
  • Chris: “I'm not rooting for him anymore.”
• Grasso’s corrupt ties, guilt over Lizzie, and a harrowing “father-son” dynamic with his boss, Michael Dorsey, are explored further.

4. Thematic Underpinnings & Character Arcs

(16:54–23:24)

• Justice vs. Law:
  • Tom's (Mark Ruffalo) role as a former priest and FBI agent who pushes for mercy and true justice—seen in his scenes advocating for Maeve, refusing to let her be punished for survival choices.
  • Bill: “There's this idea of Tom as someone who believes in, like, a different kind of justice... what is the law, and then what is just?” (18:01)
• Family, Surrogate Bonds, and Redemption:
  • The hosts gently mock and discuss Tom “adopting” traumatized child Sam ("Simpleton Sam"), wondering about the symbolic importance and the resolution for Tom’s storyline.

5. Plot Threads & Finale Predictions

(23:24–32:01)

• What unresolved narratives remain?
  • Will Sam and Maeve remain safe?
  • Will the hearing for Tom’s son finally happen?
  • What will Perry and Jason’s endgame be?
  • Is Grasso headed for redemption or disaster?
• Speculation about the ultimate fate of Maeve and Grasso, and whether season 2 could spin out from these survivors.
  • Chris: “Is Grasso alive at the end of this season? Is he dead by his own hands or by somebody else?... Those are our three things left.” (36:00)

6. Character & Motif Analysis

(33:03–36:36)

• The recurring symbolism of bridges, water, and "crossing over" is noted as highly effective without being overly corny.
• Commentaries on the plausibility of certain plot details, moments of levity, and daughter sub-plots—some called “skippable tracks.”
• Discussion of language, nicknames (Perry called “Purr”), and nitpicks about the show’s realism—balanced with affection for the series’ risks.

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Notable Quotes & Moments

• Best moment of episode:
  “When he's killing Jason and he's like, 'fucking die.' And then all of a sudden, his eyes go up… you just see the knife sticking up. I thought that was such a cool shot, how they did that.” — Chris Ryan (04:02)

• On Lizzie's sudden death:
  “There's no death scene for Lizzie. She's just dead…. She turns to camera, and then she's hit by the car.” — Bill Simmons (08:33)

• On Grasso's guilt:
  “If he's evil, he doesn't give a shit that Lizzie died. If he's evil, he would have just, like, fucked her in that bed and not worried about it... I think it's more interesting for him to be a guy who you're still kind of rooting for, even though he did this thing.” — Bill Simmons (14:36)

• On TV pacing:
  “Now it feels like the second to last episode is the biggest episode, which I don't know when that started… Thrones, probably Thrones was when I think people were aware, like, oh, the ninth episode is the… and now it feels like pretty standard.” — Chris Ryan (02:21)

• On the series' place in HBO's Pantheon:
  “I think they have an opportunity in the finale to bump it up into mayor. It’s not quite mayor territory… so the finale is a banger, I think it has the opportunity to get there.” — Bill Simmons (44:11)

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Key Timestamps for Critical Segments

• 01:11–07:05 – Breakdown of episode structure, major deaths
• 07:05–15:00 – Lizzie’s death, Grasso’s complicity and character depth
• 16:54–23:24 – Tom’s moral stance, justice vs. law, family dynamics
• 23:24–32:01 – Finale predictions, unresolved mysteries
• 36:00–39:01 – Grasso’s fate, potential for Season 2
• 40:50–43:51 – Tom/Grasso confrontation, standout scenes
• 44:11–46:21 – Series’ place among HBO limited series

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Interview with Creator Brad Ingelsby

Thematic Depth and Motivation

(47:37–54:48)

• The episode's Rumi-inspired title (“Out Beyond Ideas of Wrongdoing and Right Doing There is a River”) calls viewers to look past binary morality and see the human complexities in each character.
  • Ingelsby: “That to me was so much about the show… constantly trying to have an audience accept the inconsistencies within each of these characters.” (47:55)
• The quarry is a central motif, serving as Robbie’s “heaven”—an afterlife vision rooted in childhood and escape.
  • Ingelsby: “The quarry, to me, was always his version of heaven… as soon as we put it in… I can’t imagine the episode without it now.” (49:39)

Character Construction & Casting

• Tom Pelfrey as Robbie:
  • Cast for his "childlike sense of wonder" and emotional accessibility; Pelfrey made the character far richer than on the page.
  • Ingelsby: “He does something incredible with his eyes… sadness, a heartbreak, a glow, a gleam… he possessed the childlike wonder of Robbie.” (53:44)

Flawed Cops & Criminals – A Deliberate Choice

• Ingelsby embraces their imperfection to foster empathy and realism.
  • Ingelsby: “We wanted them to make mistakes and miss clues… all the flaws actually drew me closer and I felt more connected to them as people.” (57:07–57:42)

Structural Decisions & Rhythms

• Early major deaths were meant to subvert expectations and focus attention on the consequences—handing narrative weight to Grasso, Tom, and Maeve.
  • Ingelsby: “It was tough to bring it all together, but I think we… did it in a way that feels hopeful.” (65:59–68:11)

Motifs, Symbolism, and Character Arcs

• Recurring father/son dynamics are intentional, serving as the “spine” of the season.
  • Ingelsby: “I felt like this was a story about fathers… If [Grasso] had met Tom instead of Michael Dorsey, he would be fine.” (61:40)

Fan Theories and Details

• Ingelsby loves hearing insightful audience theories, including a listener who predicted Lizzie as the “deer”—the one who would freeze, then not, only to be hit by a car.
  • Ingelsby: “I wish I was smarter than that, but… I mean, it's amazing.” (70:58)

On Season 2 Possibilities

• Ingelsby would center any new season on the same setting and core characters, especially Tom, believing that “messy and complicated” lives offer the richest soil for storytelling.
  • Ingelsby: “The more characters I get to create, the happier I'll be.” (79:03–80:57)

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Standout Interview Quotes

• “We always said on set we don’t have to like all the decisions they make, but we have to understand them.”
  — Brad Ingelsby (47:55)

• “My stronger abilities as a writer are to lean into the flaws and the weaknesses and the vulnerabilities of characters.”
  — Brad Ingelsby (55:07)

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Final Thoughts & Engagement

• The hosts agree the penultimate episode delivers both gut-punch action and richly textured character work, while laying track for a finale that could cement the show's place in the HBO limited series pantheon (“not quite Mare yet, but could get there”).
• Audience engagement, theories, and emotional impact are praised—particularly through the fates of Lizzie, Robbie, and the ambiguous morality of Grasso.
• Ingelsby’s creative vision is revealed as empathetic, character-driven, and flexible, with a deep affection for small moments, “found family,” and the gray areas between right and wrong.

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Listen to This Episode If...

• You want incisive, energetic TV analysis with humor and heart.
• You’re fascinated by moral ambiguity, complex antiheroes, and emotional payoffs.
• You value creator interviews that offer candor, craft wisdom, and behind-the-scenes stories.
• You need fuel for your own predictions before the “Task” finale.

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Next up: The hosts tease more coverage after the season 7 finale, with more interviews and deep dives promised.

Transcript

[Joanna Robinson]

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[Bill Simmons]

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[Joanna Robinson]

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[Bill Simmons]

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[Chris Ryan]

Prestige TV Podcast episode six Task. Rob Mahoney. He died in episode six. No, he didn't die. Other people did die. Rob Mahoney said died.

[Bill Simmons]

He died before the opening credits of episode six of Task.

[Chris Ryan]

Rob Mahoney is sadly ill. He'll be fine, but ill enough that he couldn't be on an unbelievable episode. So I shout out to him, we miss Rob.

[Bill Simmons]

We'll have him for the finale, though.

[Chris Ryan]

Well, all that happened this episode was Robbie died, Lizzie died, Tom confronted Grasso about being the mall, and Robbie double crossed everybody and pulled it off.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah, just that.

[Chris Ryan]

We just only pulled that stuff out.

[Bill Simmons]

Just like a nothing after that.

[Chris Ryan]

58 minutes.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah.

[Chris Ryan]

Where do you want to start?

[Bill Simmons]

Uh, let's start. Well, should we say that we've got Brad Engelsby on this episode as well?

[Chris Ryan]

Oh, we have Brad Engelsby, the showrunner, creator of this thing at the end. And you could hear him dive into some of the decisions and why he did this show in the first place. So we were all leading. This is kind of this new trend of the second to last episode being the biggest episode, which I don't know when that started, but it was 20, 25 years ago. This was the action episode.

[Bill Simmons]

What's the first one you remember? Thrones really popularized it.

[Chris Ryan]

I felt like Sopranos do it initially would do it, but then, yeah, Thrones, probably Thrones was when I think people were aware of, like, oh, the ninth episode is the. That's the episode. And now it feels like pretty standard. Although in this case it's sixth episode.

[Bill Simmons]

I was a little Surprised about how much happened in this episode. And then the question we have to ask ourselves is, like, now what do we do with the. I mean, there's still things to do, but there's so much episode, like the finale. There's so much.

[Chris Ryan]

We still have 60 minutes left. Yeah, well, so when we did the episode five recap, we were wondering how they were going to get out of this shootout and still have two episodes left. Because in the shootout, it felt like we had these three groups. We had the Tarantino triangle happening and was just like, well, is everybody gonna die? Is it like, how are we gonna get out of this? And we figured out a way to get out of it somehow. I'm still not sure why Robbie didn't get shot immediately with all these people coming in on him, but we had.

[Bill Simmons]

Because Tom had no ammunition, I guess.

[Chris Ryan]

Yeah, well, that might have been part of it, but we end up with a double fight. We're splitting between. Were you surprised that Tom was able to hold his own with Perry? I mean, we saw Tom, like, creaking around and barely able to go up and down stairs. All of a sudden, he's Muhammad Ali.

[Bill Simmons]

Pulled all of his Hulk energy out for that. Yeah. I mean, it helps that, I guess, that Perry is an older guy, but we did just. We've watched Perry punch people, drown people, do a bunch of stuff this season. So, yeah, that. And also, it was taking me away from the Jason Robbie showdown, which I was so captivated by.

[Chris Ryan]

I thought that was the single best moment of the season. When he's killing Jason and he's like, fucking die. And then all of a sudden, his eyes go up. And when I was watching it live, I thought, oh, he killed him. This is, like, his reaction. But then you realize something happened. He rolls over, and you just see the knife sticking up. I thought that was such a cool shot, how they did that.

[Bill Simmons]

I thought that was so good. I was almost wondering, when I watched it live, I was almost wondering, is he gonna kill him or is he gonna decide, like, I'm better than this. I'm not gonna kill a guy, you know, Even though we watched a shootout at the beginning of the season, like, is his moral fiber gonna prevent him from doing this? And so I was trying to parse what was going on his face. And what was going on his face is he had a knife stuck in his ribs. And, yeah, I like that they didn't show us the knife until the roll off and all that sort of stuff. But that's a. I mean, it's A classic move.

[Chris Ryan]

It is. We've seen it many times, but it still works.

[Bill Simmons]

But it works.

[Chris Ryan]

It juked me in this one.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah, it really.

[Chris Ryan]

Yeah, I didn't see it. I just thought he was go, yeah, get away.

[Bill Simmons]

And Tom Pelfrey is such a, like, surprising performer. Like, you never kind of know what he's going to do. So I was like, maybe that's just the face that Robbie makes when he's about to kill a guy, but it's actually the face he makes when he's about to die.

[Chris Ryan]

Well, he doesn't die right away because we get the car ride. And yet again, harkening back to heat, we get the one guy cradling the other guy and. Yeah. And we get to him looking in the trees.

[Bill Simmons]

I thought his death was really good. Like, the music was really good. He flashes to the kids. He flashes to Maeve. We hear him tell that story about, you know, that we've heard him tell before, about how he and Billy hop on a dragon and fly away, and then he's like, in the quarry in this happy place. I thought that was a great death scene. Really, really good.

[Chris Ryan]

Big. I've learned not to guess awards anymore, because every time I think somebody has something locked down, someone comes in and surprises and other stuff happens. And then by the end of the year, when they're doing the list, they don't make it. But I find it hard to believe he's not going to be in the conversation.

[Bill Simmons]

It's really interesting. Have you heard anything from HBO about why they decided this should be a fall show? Because this is like, not primo Emmy qualification time. Usually you would hold something that you really think they just gonna go, I.

[Chris Ryan]

Think they needed it.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Chris Ryan]

I think post Covid when they're making less shows, because there's a lot between.

[Bill Simmons]

This and the Emmys. There's like the pit, season two, you know, a bunch of other stuff that's coming, so. But I think Pelfrey should. You know, mayor won a ton of Emmys for people, right? Yeah. And so I would love to see Pelfrey win for this. I think he's so good in the show.

[Chris Ryan]

So we think. And I think Ruffalo was really good, too, but I think. I think Pelfrey is the one. The first character you remember from this show would be my guess.

[Bill Simmons]

I think so, though it depends what they do with Grasso in the finale, because all of this is now coalescing around Grasso's character. Right. In a major way. So that's interesting.

[Chris Ryan]

Hold that thought. We'll get to Grasso. Because the other person that died is Lizzie.

[Bill Simmons]

Were you surprised that Lizzie and Robbie died so early in the episode? Because they die before.

[Chris Ryan]

I was shocked by the Lizzie death. I don't know why I didn't see it coming. But they set it up perfectly with the hearing thing. That's always a great gimmick. And in movies or shows like this, when somebody gets shot too close to the ear.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah. And it's ringing.

[Chris Ryan]

Copland did it really well with Stallone.

[Bill Simmons]

And the sound design on it was really good.

[Chris Ryan]

And then you just kind of lose your bearings and you can't hear anything anymore, and you're just.

[Bill Simmons]

I thought it was wild that. So Robbie and Lizzie die in the first 15 minutes, and then they put the title up task. So it's essentially like the cold open for the episode are these two big deaths. And we had been worried about.

[Chris Ryan]

Well, there are other deaths, too. I mean. I mean, there was like, what, five, three other ones, too.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah.

[Chris Ryan]

Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

But, like, we've been worried about Lizzie and Grasso sort of coming to a head. If one of them's a mole, what's gonna happen? They've been setting this up. The running worry about Lizzie freezing or not, or what's she gonna do? Um, this is. This is, to me, almost worse than Grasso killing her. Cause that's something we worried might happen, that he would shoot her. This is almost worse. Or at least he basically did kill her.

[Chris Ryan]

He just didn't kill her.

[Bill Simmons]

Right.

[Chris Ryan]

Yeah. Which is worse.

[Bill Simmons]

He's. He can't take ownership of it.

[Chris Ryan]

Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

But he's still responsible for it.

[Chris Ryan]

The car thing was abrupt and. And brutal.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah.

[Chris Ryan]

And. And then, of course, everybody gets to see it, too. But tough one. There's no death scene for Lizzie. She's just dead.

[Bill Simmons]

Well, she's. He's holding her, but it was like, what happened?

[Chris Ryan]

She's just fucking gone. Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

I think that. I love that. Sh. She turns to camera, and then she's hit by the car.

[Chris Ryan]

Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

Alia and Grasso running towards her, but neither of them make it in time. I thought all of that was really good. And I think what's even sadder, you know, because they set it up last episode. Right. Someone's gonna have to call out from the radio, from the car. We have no reception. So we were wondering about that. But she's calling for backup. But what's so tragic is backup's already there. Right. Like, that guy goes to pick up Tom, and he's like, oh, my Deputies are right behind me. So she did all of that for nothing because they were coming anyway. Sad.

[Chris Ryan]

Tough one. Big winner, though. Who is the actress?

[Bill Simmons]

Alison Oliver.

[Chris Ryan]

Yeah, big winner. She's really good in this.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah.

[Chris Ryan]

And Grasso now is just. Just evil. I hate Grasso now.

[Bill Simmons]

Okay, interesting. I loved this episode for Grasso because the scene that he has with Michael Dorsey and that actor whose name I didn't write down. We did get an email about it a couple weeks ago. Someone was surprised that we didn't call out that he's one of the guys in Risk Business. Like one of Cruz's friends in Risky Business.

[Chris Ryan]

That's Cruz's friend who has sex with the hooker. And the upstairs, that's the same guy.

[Bill Simmons]

So they were like, Gabriel Sarge. You know, my favorite, like, casting spoiler thing. Someone's like, that guy's coming back. He's the guy from Risky Business. And so.

[Chris Ryan]

Oh, that's good.

[Bill Simmons]

Him showing up with an all time, like, corrupt cop, like, movie name. Michael Dorsey. Right? Michael Dorsey. Great corrupt cop name. I love that scene with the two of them in the kitchen. Right. When he puts his head under the water, Grass is like, did you tell him I was a good boy? And Grasso's grappling with all this. And then the scene with Grasso and Tom, like, this was such a good Grasso episode. And I'm. So you met.

[Chris Ryan]

You missed. I thought he was good in the. In the extended shootout with trying to navigate the bad guys and doing that stuff and being sneaky, but also being locked into what was happening. And I also didn't know if he was gonna turn on Lizzie at any point. Just, like, when he's behind her, when she has that guy lined up, was he just gonna shoot her from behind? Like, everything was in play. It was good.

[Bill Simmons]

Very tense. So you just hate him. You don't feel.

[Chris Ryan]

I don't love the character.

[Bill Simmons]

You don't feel sorry for him at all?

[Chris Ryan]

Why would I feel sorry for him?

[Bill Simmons]

I don't know. I think there's something like, really, you just like him.

[Chris Ryan]

You're like, no, Grasso's misunderstood.

[Bill Simmons]

I don't think he's misunderstood. Obviously, he is responsible for all of this, but there's. All season, he's been asking about. Asking Tom about God and faith and all this sort of stuff like that. And so he's. It's the kind of guy where, like, I don't want him to get away with it. I'm not rooting for him that way. He needs to be punished for what happened or had like a damaged bird. But like, he feels like a guy who made a mistake and. And then kept making those mistakes. And the way that his boss holds his head under the tap like he's his abusive dad, like, it was really twisted. Like, what's revealed about the nature of their relationship, that was really interesting to me.

[Chris Ryan]

Well, let's do this now. I was gonna do it later, but let's do it now. So what do we think Grasshop's backstory is? And maybe we're gonna find out in this last episode a little bit. But we already. The stuff we learn in episode six about that he was being looked at suspiciously for some dark arts intelligence. So obviously he has a history of that. By the way, I mean, major nitpick. How does that not come up?

[Bill Simmons]

How did he get on the task force in the beginning? Yeah, because there were no charges in his file.

[Chris Ryan]

Of all the people to put on who were putting this guy in the task.

[Bill Simmons]

I mean, a thought I had is that, you know, if his boss, Michael Dorsey, is also corrupt, which he is. If they say, hey, do you have someone for the task force? He's like, I'm gonna put my guy Garasso on there. Cause we want our own, you know, mole in there.

[Chris Ryan]

Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

So he's got those connect. Cause like, he's not a one man corrupt job. Right. It's a corrupt department.

[Chris Ryan]

So is Michael Dorsey part of the dark hearts or just getting paid off by them? Do you think he actually belongs?

[Bill Simmons]

I don't think he's like patched in or anything like that, but I think he has a long history of passing them information. And Grasso, it's like Grasso feels newer to it. And Dorsey's like, don't fuck this up. We've got a good thing going with that.

[Chris Ryan]

But he still has to have some sort of incredibly important thing hanging over Grasso.

[Bill Simmons]

Like, why he. Like, what did he need the most?

[Chris Ryan]

This can't just be about, like, we're funneling you a little extra money to do this. Like he's this guy's.

[Bill Simmons]

I feel like once you do it, you have to keep doing it because then they have leverage on you. Right. Once you start, how do you stop? If your boss knows and is in on it too, how do you say no the next time?

[Chris Ryan]

But I still don't. You don't think that this all starts because Grasso made some mistake that they covered up for? And they're like, this will never like a.

[Bill Simmons]

Like, I think a cop, a bad cop.

[Chris Ryan]

I Do I think there was a bad cop situation decision, something.

[Bill Simmons]

I think that's a technical term. Somebody bad cop mistake. Yeah.

[Chris Ryan]

Something.

[Bill Simmons]

Sorry. Excessive use of force.

[Chris Ryan]

Somebody took care of some mistake that he made, and they're like.

[Bill Simmons]

And then he's unhappy.

[Chris Ryan]

It's basically like, I own you now. Yeah, do this. And then it's like, well, you did that. Now I really own you now. And now Grasso can't get out.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah.

[Chris Ryan]

Because we haven't seen Grasso, even though he's basically evil for setting up people and putting people in danger that he was working with, all that stuff. But he also. We never actually saw him do anything evil.

[Bill Simmons]

That's why I object to the word evil, I guess, because I think what they keep trying to show us is him trying to save Tom or him try. You know, he's just sort of like he's caught in the middle and he's done something to get himself in that position. But I don't think he's like a.

[Chris Ryan]

Bad half evil.

[Bill Simmons]

Like, maybe, but like, he's consumed by guilt. She was a good person. Like, this happened. This is horrible. Like, if he's evil, he doesn't give a shit that Lizzie died. If he's evil, he would have just, like, fucked her in that bed and not worried about it. You know what I mean? I think he's like. I think it's more interesting for him to be a guy who you're still kind of rooting for, even though he did this thing.

[Chris Ryan]

I'm not rooting for him anymore.

[Bill Simmons]

Okay?

[Chris Ryan]

Lizzie's dead, and it's his fault. Okay, Grasshopper.

[Bill Simmons]

I think Aaliyah agrees with you. I think Aaliyah agrees with you.

[Chris Ryan]

Yeah, well, Aaliyah, who I think was our number one suspect for being the molecular.

[Bill Simmons]

I don't think number one. I think we were bouncing around, but she was.

[Chris Ryan]

At one episode, we were like. She was the one.

[Bill Simmons]

She's on. She was on the board.

[Chris Ryan]

And now it's like she's. She killed two people in the shootout.

[Bill Simmons]

Her. Like, her being a crack.

[Chris Ryan]

She's the angriest. Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

Being a crack shot comes back to serve her.

[Chris Ryan]

She figures out they're looking at the task group, all that stuff.

[Bill Simmons]

Do you like how they set up? So they gave us enough Lizzie and Grasso scenes so that we would understand the tragedy of.

[Chris Ryan]

I would have had more.

[Bill Simmons]

You would have had more.

[Chris Ryan]

Lizzie Grassross, more Lizzie Grasso, less the Ruffalo daughters, family stuff.

[Bill Simmons]

And then we've got. Lizzie and Aleeya have, like, a couple Scenes together so that we understand that Alia. You know, when Alia finds that patch on her desk. So, like, they really tried to establish Lizzie as someone that multiple people would care that she's dead, even though one of them is responsible for it.

[Chris Ryan]

Interestly. Not. Not Tom. Not really a bond with Tom.

[Bill Simmons]

No, Lizzy.

[Chris Ryan]

Tom's like, I have enough damage.

[Bill Simmons]

He's like, I've got a bunch of daughters.

[Chris Ryan]

I had a bunch of damage already.

[Bill Simmons]

No, thanks.

[Chris Ryan]

Let's take a break. And we got to talk about the MA part of this.

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[Chris Ryan]

All right, so Tom goes to see Maeve.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah.

[Chris Ryan]

And he reminds her we've met before.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah.

[Chris Ryan]

And something really interesting happens with this Tom. They go through all of it, and Tom pushes to let her go.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah.

[Chris Ryan]

It's like, what are we doing a trial for? What the fuck was this girl supposed to do? What law did she break? And now we're gonna make her life worse? And these other two kids, I just. I liked how they handled all that because I thought in my head, it's a pretty dark show. Let's be honest, not a comedy.

[Bill Simmons]

You thought for several episodes that they were gonna kill Sammy. They still might.

[Chris Ryan]

Am I? Am I. Am I writing that off yet? I'm not. It's a dark show.

[Bill Simmons]

He's safe at home with Tom. You don't think he's safe?

[Chris Ryan]

But I thought Maeve going to jail for the sins of the Pendergrass family was in play. I was like, really? Now we're gonna fuck her life up, too? It's already fucked up, but it actually worked out for her. But what'd you think of that whole interplay?

[Bill Simmons]

I love that because, you know, Robbie made Tom promise that he would protect Maeve.

[Chris Ryan]

Well, it turns out it wasn't the only person he made a promise with.

[Bill Simmons]

That's true. And then also, I like this idea because we've been asking this question all season, like, why is it interesting to have an FBI agent who was a priest? Like, what's interesting about that? And there's this idea of Tom as someone who believes in, like, a different kind of justice. Like, what? You know, what is the law? And then what is Just.

[Chris Ryan]

Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

And Tom is in here arguing with, you know, the lawyer, you know, the district attorney, being like, is that. Well, he wasn't even doing that. He wasn't even appealing to her better angels. He's just like, I don't think you'll get a jury on your side. You know, he was just like nagging her case essentially. But his idea is like, in my sense of justice, which is a sort of divine, you know, given what I believe in justice. This isn't right, this isn't fair what's happening to Maeve. And so the idea of someone like Tom being in this system and, you know, a system where this, this DA was excited to like throw the book at Maeve and he's like, what purpose could that possibly serve? What are we doing here?

[Chris Ryan]

I think in real life that doesn't happen all the time would be my guess.

[Bill Simmons]

Tom gets away with a lot of stuff. Yeah. Tom just takes Sammy home with him.

[Chris Ryan]

Like that's, you know, that was the next thing. He. He adopted Sam. The bird watching, animal loving simpleton just brings him in. Simpleton, by the way, no easier kid to adopt than Sam. It's like, just get, get him a couple Legos. He's good for like a week and a half.

[Bill Simmons]

He's got a Batman Lego set, so you call him a simpleton. Where are you in, like, liking Sammy and wanting good things for him?

[Chris Ryan]

I mean, I definitely feel, definitely feel terrible for Sam.

[Bill Simmons]

He got a Lego chick.

[Chris Ryan]

Feel bad for him. He made a little Lego, not an easy life.

[Bill Simmons]

He made a little Lego chicken named Gertie and he's like, she's my fwend. Is that not tugging at the old heartstrings? Bill Simmons.

[Chris Ryan]

I would have liked a couple scenes with Sam wondering what the Philly score was or just a couple extra. Couple extra things for him. Tom's kids were confused.

[Bill Simmons]

This seems highly. I understand that he's like technically a foster in the foster system or something like that, but this seemed.

[Chris Ryan]

He's like Mia Farrow. He's just collecting kids in his house.

[Bill Simmons]

I was like, you can't just take him home.

[Chris Ryan]

Is this leading to the last scene of the show, episode seven, which neither of us have watched yet, of a big dinner table scene with the two daughters, with the kid who's in jail, whatever, who's gonna get out? That's probably happening. Ethan, in episode seven, Sam and Maeve and the two kids, they were all at the table. I don't think the two kids are invited. It's probably a table for Six.

[Bill Simmons]

I was just. Maeve. Okay.

[Chris Ryan]

Big dinner scene, and it's like, Tom is a collector.

[Bill Simmons]

I'm going to try.

[Chris Ryan]

Maybe Aliyah's there.

[Bill Simmons]

I'm going to try to apply some newly earned knowledge. Are you just applying Sopranos rules? Because don't Sopranos seasons end with, like, a big family meal? Isn't that, like, a classic Soprano?

[Chris Ryan]

I was just trying to figure out, like, the end game of this Is Tomorrow. Who we see in the first episode is just, like, a broken alcoholic.

[Bill Simmons]

Right?

[Chris Ryan]

Like, just so he's drunker than anyone's ever been on hbo. And by the end of this, he is now a little bit more sober, and he's added a person to the family. Simpleton Sam.

[Bill Simmons]

Emily's calling him out. Simpleton Sam.

[Chris Ryan]

Simpleton Sam's now at the table, the traumatized child. And it's just he's got his family back.

[Bill Simmons]

Something that Rob and I were saying last week is that we felt a little uncomfortable with this idea that, like, he hasn't gone to visit his son. But how about that?

[Chris Ryan]

That plot was abandoned, but he's just.

[Bill Simmons]

Brought a replacement son into the home.

[Chris Ryan]

Right.

[Bill Simmons]

We were like, that feels a little dicey to us. Yeah.

[Chris Ryan]

Tough one. Well, I mean, you predicted this, I think, in the first episode that Sam was going to end up at Tomorrow.

[Bill Simmons]

One of our listeners did.

[Chris Ryan]

Somebody predicted.

[Bill Simmons]

Because they pointed out that, you know, they both like birds.

[Chris Ryan]

Right.

[Bill Simmons]

How do you feel about Ruffalo's chicken impression?

[Chris Ryan]

It was bad.

[Bill Simmons]

It was pretty good.

[Chris Ryan]

I thought it was a strong episode for him. Yeah, well, he has a bed for Sam because his other adopted son is still in the slammer.

[Bill Simmons]

I don't think it's abandoned. That's gotta be finale stuff, right?

[Chris Ryan]

Well, why would they spend all that time with the hearing? Are you gonna go? We're gonna do all that for three episodes and then not have the hearing?

[Bill Simmons]

I have to. I'm gonna look down the camera as I say this. I now know. We now know exactly when this show is taking place. This has been an ongoing debate with us, but our listeners have had it with our debate about this. The trial date is June 12, so we are in early June. I have some questions about tomatoes being ready in early June. That's not how gardens are early June. That's okay. We're in early June.

[Chris Ryan]

Probably getting pretty hot there in Pennsylvania at that point.

[Bill Simmons]

Emily's still in school, so school's not out for summer yet.

[Chris Ryan]

Phillies are playing. Yeah, the Sixers aren't in the finals because they never are.

[Bill Simmons]

So do you think we're getting. Do you think we're getting the hearing.

[Chris Ryan]

In the finale if we don't like. What was the point of the first three episodes? You have to.

[Bill Simmons]

Tom says in this episode, you know, when he's talking about his. His sins, things he feels guilty about or whatever he admits, like, my son's been in prison all.

[Chris Ryan]

Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

And I haven't seen him at all.

[Chris Ryan]

Well, the. I mean, what's left? So the plots that are left. Martha Plimpton's character, she's gonna be in the. I think we're probably done with her and she's not the mole and she's just gonna be recovering hospital. So she's over there.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah, she's working her fiber intake.

[Chris Ryan]

We have Perry and Jason found the fentanyl bag at the end of this episode, but got rope a doped because it wasn't fentanyl. It was just a bag of bullshit. Maeve got the bag of a lot of money thanks to Scary Face Ray. And Shelly, embattled xr.

[Bill Simmons]

No, thanks to Ray.

[Chris Ryan]

Well, embattled wife Shelly.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah.

[Chris Ryan]

Who turned out. She said, I'm a good person.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah. And she came through.

[Chris Ryan]

So then scaling back to the previous episode.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah.

[Chris Ryan]

So it started out, this is episode five. Robbie goes to see. He's gonna go like, kill Scared Face Ray.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah.

[Chris Ryan]

Then has that interaction and he just leaves and it seems like they're done and we're never gonna see her again. So he obviously went back. He goes to see Freddy Frias later in the episode. And that's kind of been a scene that ended abruptly.

[Bill Simmons]

Well, that's a setup.

[Chris Ryan]

It's a setup scene and we think Freddy Frius is giving him to the biker gang. But now I'm actually thinking it was a long con.

[Bill Simmons]

I think it's partially a long con. Like, I don't think. I don't think Freddie Frius is in on it.

[Chris Ryan]

Oh, interesting, because I think he is.

[Bill Simmons]

I think they didn't show us the end of that scene with Shelley. Or he goes back and Robbie makes this deal with Shelley, but he goes to Freddy Freeyas knowing that Freddie's going to tip off Jason and he's like, this is where I'll meet you. I'll meet you at this cabin. And he has this plan this whole time to draw Jason out there and to kill Jason. That that's what he wants to do. Right.

[Chris Ryan]

So you think Freddie Free is a go between. Where did he get all the money for the fentanyl then?

[Bill Simmons]

Shelly sold it. But to who to the contact that Ray had. Ray had a guy they were going to sell that had nothing to do with Freddie Frias.

[Chris Ryan]

So you don't think she just sold it to Freddie Freeas? And this is Freddie Freezes revenge against the biker game.

[Bill Simmons]

I would like because Freddie Freeze hated the biker game, but I think so that's why.

[Chris Ryan]

I thought that was why he did that.

[Bill Simmons]

I think it's just that Tom knew that Freddie would tip him off to the dark hearts. And. And look.

[Chris Ryan]

Or did Tom go, you hated the. You hate. You hate the dark hearts. I hate the dark hearts. What if we did this?

[Bill Simmons]

Okay. That's a vast conspiracy. I'm willing to consider it. Knowing this. I keep calling him Tom because the actor Robbie. Like, knowing that Robbie had this plan this whole time rewatching Episode five.

[Chris Ryan]

Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

When he's like asking Tom about an afterlife and all these other stuff. Like he's going to die. Like he knows he's going to die.

[Chris Ryan]

He figures there's going to be a shootout and he might lose.

[Bill Simmons]

He wants to kill Jason and he doesn't care if he dies doing it. And he has no plan after this. And he's left the money behind for Maeve.

[Chris Ryan]

So we're going to find out what happened. Who gave them the money. Was Freddie either involved?

[Bill Simmons]

Right.

[Chris Ryan]

Is Freddie trying to double cross the.

[Bill Simmons]

How vast. How many counties in Pennsylvania are involved in this?

[Chris Ryan]

And then. And then the other thing that's still up in the air. Well, there's two things. One is Grasso. How are they going to solve that one? And then Perry murdering Jason's wife, Aaron.

[Bill Simmons]

Where's Aaron? He just left her in the water. Is that the idea? That's what you and Rob were saying last week.

[Chris Ryan]

When I kill people in a quarry, I like to put a string and a rock on their legs to kind of keep them down toward the bottom. Yeah, I think that's a necessity.

[Bill Simmons]

Is it just one rock will do it or do you need multiple rocks?

[Chris Ryan]

You want nice big 20 pound rock, maybe some rope, maybe even a second rock just to make sure.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah. I would double rock it.

[Chris Ryan]

He just seemed like he's like, I'm good. That's what's going to happen.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah.

[Chris Ryan]

She's going to float around for a while.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah. It doesn't seem. Here I have. This is the thing that's actually really bothering me about task. His name's Perry.

[Chris Ryan]

Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

His nickname is Purr. And that really bothers me because like, Purr is a nickname for Percy. Makes sense. But his name is Perry and They call him Purr. It's very. It's very convenient.

[Chris Ryan]

That is weird. But you can't call him Pear because then he sounds like a fruit.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah, yeah, I would just name him.

[Chris Ryan]

How about just Perry?

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah, or P. P. Big P. Anyway, Big P used zero rocks to weigh Eren down the quarry. If he did, we didn't see it. So I don't know what's happening.

[Chris Ryan]

I'm guessing as an experienced murderer, he probably was like, okay, I hope so. Let me drag this body over.

[Bill Simmons]

So what happens if Jason finds out that Perry killed Aaron?

[Chris Ryan]

Well, I think the three predictions we can safely make here are Perry and Jason are gonna have. Jason's gonna put two and two together and they're gonna fight to death or something will happen. There's one. Two is Tom and Grasso are gonna have to have a moment. Right. And then the third one I think we can safely predict is the hearing will happen at some point in the show.

[Bill Simmons]

It would be very weird if it didn't. Is Maeve okay? That's my main concern. She has a bag of money that the motorcycle.

[Chris Ryan]

So that'd be the fourth prediction then. Well, when did they put two and two together and realize that Maeve might have profited from all of this?

[Bill Simmons]

I don't know. Does she start spending it or does she hide it?

[Chris Ryan]

Maeve buys a Lambo.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah. Yeah. Maeve rolls up in a Lambo.

[Chris Ryan]

My guess is she's been been impressed by her smarts for most of this. Although her biggest fail was probably the let me go drop off plan. Payphone call. I'll leave the kid in the car. This will all work.

[Bill Simmons]

Not our best move, but my guess.

[Chris Ryan]

Is she's going to get out of Dodge now with that money, take the two kids and they're going to go to probably Canada.

[Bill Simmons]

I'm just worried about Maeve perpetually. Because, like, it's like with the Lizzie thing, we were worried all season that Lizzie was going to freeze. Yeah. And then she didn't. She did and she didn't. And then she died anyway. Yeah. So we're like, we. I've been so worried about Maeve. You were like, I'm worried Maeve's going to go to jail. So then there's this idea, okay, she's home, she's safe, she's with the kids. Robbie thinks he's done something good for her by providing for her with his bag of money, but that's just putting a target on her back. Right.

[Chris Ryan]

As soon as they put three and three together.

[Bill Simmons]

Right.

[Chris Ryan]

Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

Where would the money be?

[Chris Ryan]

Yeah. So you think she'll be the one that. There's the shotgun in the woods with the crows scattering up.

[Bill Simmons]

You still want that shotgun?

[Chris Ryan]

She's not gonna be saved.

[Bill Simmons]

You still want that moment?

[Chris Ryan]

I still thought we were getting that moment.

[Bill Simmons]

Can I go back to, like the. How do you feel in stories, in film or television, when they leave things out and then. So like with. With Robbie's plan with Shelley, they left it out. We didn't get to see it. So then it's like a. I'm good with it. A little twist, a little turn.

[Chris Ryan]

Yeah. Because I only like it if in retrospect, you're like, oh, that's why he left. But they left it open ended. That's why he went to sit down with Freddy Frius. But we never heard the combo.

[Bill Simmons]

Right. So the codes were all there.

[Chris Ryan]

Yeah. That's why I think Freddy Freest is in on this.

[Bill Simmons]

Okay. Yeah, yeah.

[Chris Ryan]

Interesting, because I think they would have showed the combo otherwise.

[Bill Simmons]

That's a fair point. That's a great point.

[Chris Ryan]

So he's like, how about if we fuck over the Spiker gang in the best possible way, we'll make it seem like you're turning me in, but you're not.

[Bill Simmons]

I have a bag of some money for you, but other money's going to.

[Chris Ryan]

The case against that theory is, would Freddie Frias have had people in the woods to try to kill these guys?

[Bill Simmons]

Freddie Frius wants all the money. Yeah. You know what I mean? He wouldn't settle for some of the money.

[Chris Ryan]

Like, he's gonna have all these people in a good spot. Could you just take all of them out?

[Bill Simmons]

I think I agree with you that I don't mind them not showing us, like certain things or ends of scenes or something like that. If the payoff is pretty soon, like, it's the next episode, we find out what actually happened. It's when it happens, you know, a whole season later. And you're like, I don't remember. What are you talking about? You know?

[Chris Ryan]

Well, I didn't remember. I mean, we've watched six of these. I didn't remember that we saw Gabriel Sabarge in episode one or what that scene was. Even though we've watched all these episodes.

[Bill Simmons]

Carefully, but it wasn't episode one, it was.

[Chris Ryan]

Or episode two.

[Bill Simmons]

It was episode. I think it was episode four. They like when they're going to the park and that whole team that's with them in the park, he's running that team. That's like Grasso's department. Right.

[Chris Ryan]

Okay, I remember that now.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Chris Ryan]

I do have one more nitpick retroactive after watching episode six.

[Bill Simmons]

Okay?

[Chris Ryan]

So they leave with all the drugs in episode one, big shootout, and they're.

[Bill Simmons]

Stuck with this kid, Simpleton Sammy. I believe you're calling Simpleton Sammy.

[Chris Ryan]

Why not go to this cutest child? Why not go to the remote cabin with Sam?

[Bill Simmons]

Great question.

[Chris Ryan]

Why not use the remote cabin?

[Bill Simmons]

Great question.

[Chris Ryan]

It's right there. Nobody knows you have it.

[Bill Simmons]

Well, then you don't have Maeve as a babysitter. Built in babysitter.

[Chris Ryan]

But do I even want Maeve to know I have this kid? Or that I did all this stuff.

[Bill Simmons]

I did ask Brad about, and, and people can tune in for that, but like Tom being a pretty bad cop and Robbie being a pretty bad criminal. And what's interesting about that to him, do you know what I mean? Because people have been complaining about that. They're like, Robbie's not very good at this. And I actually think that's kind of interesting.

[Chris Ryan]

Kind of how you become a criminal guy.

[Joanna Robinson]

Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

You're, you know.

[Chris Ryan]

Well, the thing with, with Sam, if you're doing this over again from Robbie's standpoint.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah.

[Chris Ryan]

Sam, not exactly a rocket scientist. Maybe just drop him off at the mall and he's not going to be like, here's what the. My two kidnappers look like. The more we learn about Sam, he's probably not going to divulge a lot of info about the people that briefly took him after his parents were murdered.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah, yeah, Simpleton.

[Chris Ryan]

That was the mistake.

[Bill Simmons]

He might have been able to describe, like an animal he saw.

[Chris Ryan]

Right, True.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah.

[Chris Ryan]

They had a house with three chickens.

[Bill Simmons]

One was named Gertie. Can I ask as like a lover of action movies? Yeah. When Tom Pelfrey, as Robbie Pendergrass says in the forest, is this what you came for? Like, what did that do for you?

[Chris Ryan]

And through the bag.

[Bill Simmons]

It's great.

[Chris Ryan]

I mean, they're playing some karaoke with some of the action stuff.

[Bill Simmons]

I love it. Yeah.

[Chris Ryan]

Yeah, I like that. I really, I thought the bridge and whatever symbolism you want to take out of that and people go in different directions and then things finally ending on the bridge again. I liked all that stuff, like the, you know, I normally don't like. Normally I think stuff like that's corny, but I actually thought it worked with.

[Bill Simmons]

This, with the, like, crossing the bridge.

[Chris Ryan]

And the choices you make, the symbolism. There are two sides. You're going to go left to right and, oh, now we're together on Our bridge of choices. Like I do. I did enjoy all that.

[Bill Simmons]

Sunday night HBO is brought out.

[Chris Ryan]

The poet.

[Bill Simmons]

I love it. I love it. I know they're not your favorite plot line, but we didn't talk about Sarah and Emily at all. Do you want to, like, mention they're reconciled, they're sticking up for each other?

[Chris Ryan]

Sure.

[Bill Simmons]

Okay. Are you on tenterhooks to find out if Emily's actually going to go to that magic show with that kid? She scoops water.

[Chris Ryan]

That was a get up and go to the bathroom scene.

[Bill Simmons]

Okay. You left during the close up magic.

[Chris Ryan]

Guys, here's the thing with TV shows.

[Bill Simmons]

He wears a jaunty vest, though. It's not. It's not for you. Okay.

[Chris Ryan]

He's like, yes, I got my date. Cool. Here's the thing with these.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah.

[Chris Ryan]

Albums have this too. Sometimes every hit skippable track. Yeah. Sometimes every song in the album can't be great TV shows. You know, you still haven't watched the Sopranos, but some people love the Dr. Meli scenes. I personally do not like them.

[Bill Simmons]

I have watched some Sopranos. He's so clear about that.

[Chris Ryan]

Trying to think Thrones.

[Bill Simmons]

Oh, yeah. You're like, oh, God, we're back in Marine. I don't care. Like, what is Daenerys doing again this week?

[Chris Ryan]

It's tough to bat a thousand.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah.

[Chris Ryan]

With plots.

[Bill Simmons]

Sure.

[Chris Ryan]

And I get why they have to have the.

[Bill Simmons]

You didn't like when Sarah's interrogating him in the kitchen and she's like, what is this kid? What's happening here? And he's like. He's like, now, does anyone want a peanut butter and jelly sandwich?

[Chris Ryan]

I didn't mind that part.

[Bill Simmons]

Good, like dad moment for you.

[Chris Ryan]

So I don't know, maybe it's just because of what my family situation is like, but I just feel like there would be, like, slightly more humor. I get it that there's completely humorless houses, but I feel like somebody needed to be sarcastic in this house. And it's neither daughter. And then Ethan's obviously not a bear of laughs.

[Bill Simmons]

Maybe Ethan's really fun when he's well meant.

[Chris Ryan]

Maybe the mom was the funny one.

[Bill Simmons]

I don't know. Yeah.

[Joanna Robinson]

Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

She's keeping it off.

[Chris Ryan]

It'd be like, dad, dude, it's like you went to ebay and found another kid. Like, there just should have been some joke.

[Bill Simmons]

Well, now Sammy's here to really bring up the level.

[Chris Ryan]

Sammy's just excited. He has a bed.

[Bill Simmons]

He's like. Do you think he's like, is that other Kid gonna come and take for me. Poor Sammy.

[Chris Ryan]

Predictions. Is Grasso alive at the end of this season?

[Bill Simmons]

How can he be if he's responsible for Lizzie's death?

[Chris Ryan]

Is he dead by his own hands or by somebody else?

[Bill Simmons]

Is he. Well, here's my question. Is he dead because he does something heroic or is he dead because he just is deeper and deeper into the plot? You know what I mean? Is there a chance for, like, redemption for him?

[Chris Ryan]

He's killed. He's killed saving somebody. Kills himself.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah.

[Chris Ryan]

Those are our three things left.

[Bill Simmons]

And do a flock of birds go up in the forest for any of those moments?

[Chris Ryan]

No flock of birds for him.

[Bill Simmons]

Wow. No flock of birds.

[Chris Ryan]

Door number four for Grasso is gets away. And that's season two.

[Bill Simmons]

Season two, the Grasso season.

[Chris Ryan]

Which Grasso on the run. My sources have told me season two of task is in play in a real way.

[Bill Simmons]

Stay tuned. We did ask Brad about it. Okay. Yeah.

[Chris Ryan]

So that season two could be built around Grasso or we could just be in a completely different task and other some part of Pennsylvania because Ingoldsby has a Pennsylvania hard on.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah. We can't leave the Wooderers where we're.

[Chris Ryan]

If he goes into the Lehigh Lafayette territory, like Patriot League murder.

[Bill Simmons]

Do you think he's actually gonna pay Sierra this time to co to or.

[Chris Ryan]

I mean, it was already insulting that he didn't involve him as a consultant for the last one. Yeah, but if it was a fictional show, he should have had the 76ers in the finals. It would have been their only chance.

[Bill Simmons]

Just a dream. A fictional dream. Yeah.

[Chris Ryan]

Joel Embiid. He's played every game this season.

[Bill Simmons]

What?

[Chris Ryan]

America. We could have an announcer. Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

Do you wish Rob were here for this joke?

[Chris Ryan]

Yes.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah.

[Chris Ryan]

Predictions.

[Bill Simmons]

I'm worried about Maeve. I'm hopeful for Grasso redemption.

[Chris Ryan]

Is there a chance Grasso lives and Maeve dies?

[Bill Simmons]

Since we started this season with you predicting a child getting shot in the woods, I feel like everything's on the table. Maeve could die.

[Chris Ryan]

Still might not be out of that one.

[Bill Simmons]

I want to ask you. Okay. You like the symbolism of the bridge. I know, I know. We're wrapping up. We're not going to take much longer because.

[Chris Ryan]

And the trees and the leaves and.

[Bill Simmons]

What do you think of the final shot of Robbie in the water? Like, Robbie's long dead.

[Chris Ryan]

I love that.

[Bill Simmons]

And then Maeve gets the bag of money and then Robbie's in the water.

[Chris Ryan]

The rare flashback of something that I thought really worked.

[Bill Simmons]

You're like, give me that glance.

[Chris Ryan]

It Was like, Robbie finally got a win. It was like, this guy had a lot of wins in life.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah.

[Chris Ryan]

You know?

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah. All right, so what are your predictions?

[Chris Ryan]

I think a lot of it depends on whether TAS Season 2 is the same crew or different people, because is Ruffalo safe? I think Ruffalo's safe because you need him for season two in some form if he wants to be.

[Bill Simmons]

If you're gonna do TAS season two, you have to have Ruffalo anchoring it, is what you're saying?

[Chris Ryan]

I think so. But could season two be Grasso on the loose? It just becomes a different show now. We're doing the Fugitive, basically.

[Bill Simmons]

Here's what.

[Chris Ryan]

So I think Grasso dies would be my take.

[Bill Simmons]

Bill, to be clear, I would not say no to the.

[Chris Ryan]

Grasso's the Fugitive.

[Bill Simmons]

Grasso's a fugitive. Yeah.

[Chris Ryan]

Well, we talked about this.

[Bill Simmons]

I'm just being like, I don't care.

[Chris Ryan]

You know, we talked about this in another episode. I think that guy's been excellent.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah. Frankel. Yeah.

[Chris Ryan]

And in terms of people from England impersonating American actors with actors, he should.

[Bill Simmons]

Be cast in every, like, east coast crime stuff going forward.

[Chris Ryan]

I can't wait to see him on a Netflix rom com in a year that my wife's watching. That's terrible. But she loves it.

[Bill Simmons]

Is this happen to all the actors you like?

[Chris Ryan]

No, it would just be like, him with, I don't know, Millie, Bobby Brown or somebody who's like, whoa, she's in a rom com now.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah.

[Chris Ryan]

And we're just like, ah, Grasso needed the paycheck.

[Bill Simmons]

We gotta expand. You gotta expand the portfolio. You know what I mean? Here's what I want to say about Mark Ruffalo in the show.

[Chris Ryan]

Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

I think he needs something really big in the finale because I think to a certain degree, Tom Pelfrey has kind of stolen the show. Ruffalo's the star. He's the big star of the show.

[Chris Ryan]

You won his Emmy Thunder back.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah. Right. Pelfrey's doing a lot of work.

[Chris Ryan]

Could that be a hearing?

[Bill Simmons]

Vivian Frankel's doing a lot of work. We talked about Alison Oliver and stuff like that. Yeah. I mean, something. We need to give Ruffalo monologue to.

[Chris Ryan]

The judge in the hearing.

[Bill Simmons]

Ruffalo, big moment in the finale. He needs it.

[Chris Ryan]

Paul Newman at the end of the Verdict kind of big speech.

[Bill Simmons]

Yes.

[Chris Ryan]

Where one of his daughters puts their arm around him after and be like, dad, great job.

[Bill Simmons]

And you're, like, really mad. I love these daughter scenes. They're my Favorite.

[Chris Ryan]

And then they all make food.

[Bill Simmons]

They all have peanut butter and jelly sandwiches, and Sammy is fine.

[Chris Ryan]

Sam goes outside to look at the chickens in there. That's it. Yeah. I don't know what. We have an hour left, and I don't know where it goes, but I.

[Bill Simmons]

Assume you've got a mole, like a rat hunt. Like, we know. I really loved that, the exchange between Tom and Grasso, which I thought was all timer. Like, I thought it was so good. And that's the thing is like, oh.

[Chris Ryan]

We should have talked about that. That was such a good scene.

[Bill Simmons]

Ruffalo has been the best at these. Like, he was so good in that car scene with Tom Pelfrey. So good at this kitchen table scene with Fabian Frankel and talking about confession, talking about Tom doing what Tom does best, Right. Grass was like, oh, you're good, Tom. I see what you're doing. I see what you're trying for here, right? But him saying, like, there's a difference between what you believe and what you can prove. And this.

[Chris Ryan]

That's the thing between believing something and proving it.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah.

[Chris Ryan]

It's such a good, good, good line. I'm coming for you, Grasso.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah, really good stuff. I'm coming for you, Grasso. Up with this is what you came for is like, killer stuff. But all season, Grasso has been in this crisis of faith, asking, you know, he grew up, he didn't believe. You know, asking Tom why he believes.

[Chris Ryan]

Essentially, why didn't his DJ career work out?

[Bill Simmons]

Right? Yeah. If there's a God, wouldn't I be the most famous DJ in Ibiza? Like that. But he's. He's cradling Lizzie. And later he's like, she was gone. There was something about her that was gone. He's like, discovered what a soul is. You know what I mean? He's in this, like, real cool purgatory. Crisis of faith. Yeah, purgatory. Purgatory. You want Grasso to have a season? You want Grasso, season two.

[Chris Ryan]

I'm glad you reminded me to bring up that scene, because I meant to and I forgot. I thought that was a great cat and mouse scene.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah, really.

[Chris Ryan]

I also liked when Grasso slowly figured out what was going on. He's like, can I have a cigarette, Tom? Oh, no, this is my house. I guess I can have one. But it was just clear. He's like, oh, shit, this guy's on to me now. Why didn't Tom just bring the cops over and, like, arrest Grasso?

[Bill Simmons]

He's not supposed to be on the case. At all anymore.

[Chris Ryan]

I know, but it's.

[Bill Simmons]

They took his gun. He's supposed to be at home. He's not even supposed to be there.

[Chris Ryan]

But the guy, real clerk center, clearly broke the law. Like, did he need more evidence?

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah, they have to prove it. They don't have proof on him yet. So that's what the finale is about, is getting proof on Grasso.

[Chris Ryan]

Right now it's. Now we're in Wire Season 2.

[Bill Simmons]

Love that for us. I also think that, like, before Tom does the kitchen table scene when they're still in the hospital, before he knows that Grasso, before Martha Plimpton tells him about the file. Which would have been nice to know before they went into the woods. Right. Why did they go into the woods with him when she knew that? I don't know.

[Chris Ryan]

Great point.

[Bill Simmons]

But when Tom.

[Chris Ryan]

Are you sure she knew before?

[Bill Simmons]

Well, she said we have a problem. And, like, the guy who works in her office. You know what I mean? Like, she was sort of looking into it. So I don't know if she didn't have that file before they went. But when they're in the hospital, before Tom knows that Grasso has his file on him, he gives them the old Robin Williams Good Will Hunting. It's not your fault. Like, you know, he gives him like a full. It's not your fault when Grasso fucking knows it's his fault.

[Chris Ryan]

Right.

[Bill Simmons]

And to have that at the beginning of the episode and then the kitchen table of like, I'm coming for you, Grasso. This is an incredible episode of television.

[Chris Ryan]

Any stuff from the readers before we go that jumped out?

[Bill Simmons]

I think we did it.

[Chris Ryan]

Do people feel like this is in the top shelf HBO limited series Pantheon or like one level below?

[Bill Simmons]

I think it's. I think they have an opportunity in the finale to bump it up into mayor. It's not quite mayor territory. It hasn't become. I think everyone's watching and everyone's talking about it yet. So the finale is a banger. I think it has the opportunity to get there. But, like, don't you have that sense? It's not where White Lotus was early this year. You know, it's not.

[Chris Ryan]

I think you made the point earlier, like, when they released it, which. I know they've had success other times in the calendar, but there's just a lot going on in September.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah.

[Chris Ryan]

From a sports standpoint. From an everything standpoint, September, October, people are going back to school. Like, I think this would have crushed in the summer. Like, in a crazy way.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah.

[Chris Ryan]

All that Cory action and they just don't think of the summer this way for shows like this. And I think they feel like they need something to stay in the conversation when there's so much conversation about everything.

[Bill Simmons]

And that's a very, you know, that's. You and I are old enough to remember when September and October is. When all those shows came out.

[Chris Ryan]

The famous Breaking Bad, Game of Thrones same time against football in like 2013. That was the all timer.

[Bill Simmons]

So I think.

[Chris Ryan]

Oh, and Mad Men. I think there might have been three. Were there three at the same time?

[Bill Simmons]

One time it was definitely Mad Men was definitely on at the same time as Thrones. At one season we had at least two going constantly.

[Chris Ryan]

Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah. That was really tough. It was great. But it was horrible if you weren't.

[Chris Ryan]

Horrible if you were running a content site.

[Bill Simmons]

No, no. I mean as someone who was trying to cover it. Yeah.

[Chris Ryan]

Do you think I felt bad for the people covering it? We needed the content. No, those were the glory days.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah. It was great stuff. But I think that Task has an opportunity if the finale is a banger to like jump up into that level. But I don't think it's quite there yet.

[Chris Ryan]

Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

Would you agree?

[Chris Ryan]

I think it has a chance. It's going to. It's all about how you land the plane.

[Bill Simmons]

I think it'll have. I think it'll have long legs. I think there's good word of mouth. I think people who watched it will tell people to watch it. I don't think anyone's walking out of the season saying don't bother with Task. I think it's going to like people are going to catch on and I think it's going to be one of those things where season one is a little quieter and then a lot of people will have caught up for season two. That seems like, like that's the HBO sweet spot.

[Chris Ryan]

That's what they love the most.

[Bill Simmons]

Gotta love it.

[Chris Ryan]

All right, we're take a break and then we're going to throw to your interview with Brad. Hi, it's Eva Longoria and let's be real.

[Bill Simmons]

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[Bill Simmons]

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[Chris Ryan]

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[Bill Simmons]

So the episode six title out behind ideas of wrongdoing and right doing There is a river is a tweak on a line from a Rumi poem. So I was wondering sort of what about that Rumi poem spoke to you and why are we tweaking it from field to river inside of this title?

[Joanna Robinson]

Yeah, that's a good question, Joanna. I think what always resonated about the quote was this idea of right and wrong and go past that and look deeper. And that to me was so much about the show. That really was what excited me about the show was to dive into a group of characters that we aren't able to put in a box, that we're constantly trying to have an audience accept the inconsistencies within each of these characters. And the quote spoke to that. I think it was. I always, I always read it as asking the reader to look past that, to go deeper. And I think if you look at the show and all the characters, we're trying to do that with each of them. We always said on set we don't have to or we don't have to, like all the decisions they make, but we have to understand them. And that's what we were always trying to do with each of the characters in the show, was understand the why. And I think, and listen, it helps to work with such incredible actors. These guys were just amazing guys and girls. It was such a wonderful. So they made a big difference in achieving that.

[Bill Simmons]

Throughout the season we've had this great motif of the quarry and the anointing of the water on the shoulders and we get this final shot of this episode of Robbie having pulled one over, at least for now, on Jason but happy and light in the water. Is this an afterlife? Is this the moment Robbie thought of this idea is this just. You wanted to show him in a better time and a place. What do you think?

[Joanna Robinson]

Yeah, I think, you know, it was so.

[Chris Ryan]

You know what?

[Joanna Robinson]

It wasn't in the script, Joanna. It was not in the script.

[Chris Ryan]

It ended.

[Joanna Robinson]

Actually, the script ended with. It ended with Maeve. And it's one of those things, like, I had a very distinct experience with this in Mayor, with Evan Peters character, where I felt like I. In a way, I underestimated the impact of that character. I didn't. In the script, he wasn't that good. I'll be honest. Evan elevated that character in ways I couldn't imagine. And I remember getting to the fifth episode of Mayor and being like, oh, my God, we're really in trouble, because people love him so much. And, I mean, I'm not just saying that. It wasn't that he was fine in the script. I thought he was a good character, but I think Evan elevated him. And I felt so. I had the same reaction to Pelfrey in this show where I liked Robbie as a character in the scripts, but when I was editing the show, his performance just was so incredible. And I remember getting to the end of the episode and going, God, we have to give Robbie a moment of triumph here. He's owed that moment. And I went back into the dailies, and Jeremiah had shot a couple jumps into the quarry. And there was this beautiful moment that we found by just going back into the dailies where I don't even know what Tom was reacting to in the moment, but he was laughing. And then the camera sort of, in just a moment of luck, Joanne, it went underwater and captured his leg swimming, in a way. And when I saw that, I just felt like it served a few purposes. One is it allowed the audience to see him again and to give him this win we so desperately want him to have. And also, I think the quarry, to me, was always his version of heaven. Again, he's not a believer in the traditional sense of, you know, where I'm going in this life. He says it in the back of the car with Tom. I never, you know, I forget the exact quote, but he mentions it when he's talking to Tom in the car. And so to me, the quarry represented his heaven here. And as soon as we put it in, at first I was like, eh, I don't know if it's gonna work. And then we watched it a few times. Joanne. I felt like I can't imagine the episode without it now, in a funny way, you know, I did have a.

[Bill Simmons]

Question about Pelfrey, because I find him so watchable in everything. This is a really great marriage of material and actor. But he's always has this thing that is just completely compulsively watchable and empathetic and odd, like, offbeat. A lot of his choices. What do you think is at the heart of why Tom Pelfrey connects with audiences the way that he does?

[Joanna Robinson]

You know, it's. I don't know what it is. I guess I can speak to why I cast him as Robbie, though, and I think it was an accessibility. I think I've told this story before. I was on set of another project, and we would get casting tapes sent to us, and Tom was one of the very. I mean, really early in the process, maybe the first, like, two or three of the tapes we got from AV Kaufman, our casting director. And he put himself on tape. And it was the scene in episode one where he's talking to Cliff about he wants someone in his life and his wife has left. And I got about a half a minute into the audition, and he laughs. And he has an iconic laugh. Tom. He has an incredible laugh. And I heard him laugh. And I paused the audition tape, and I distinctly remember this, and thinking, wow, this guy has something. And then my phone rang, and it was Jeremiah, our director. He's like, dude, I just watched this guy's tape. Perfect. And it was Tom Pelfrey he was talking about. And I went back and finished the audition, and we didn't read anybody after that.

[Bill Simmons]

And.

[Joanna Robinson]

And I think it was a mixture of a couple things. It was. I felt Robbie's childlike sense of wonder in Tom. He has this incredible laugh.

[Bill Simmons]

There's.

[Joanna Robinson]

He does something incredible with his eyes, especially in the fifth episode. There's a lot of amazing eye acting, I would call it. Like, there's a sadness, a heartbreak, a glow, a gleam. He has all these different shades of acting in his eyes. But I felt like he possessed the childlike wonder of Robbie. And I also felt like there was a. He has the physicality that I wanted Robbie to have, that, you know, that you could believe him in bed with his kids, and you could believe him in a drug house, smashing his pistol against someone's nose. And I felt like we had to believe both those sides completely. And Tom is just. He's just so accessible. And also, I think, in this case, Joanna, he grew up around here. I think Tom. And he'll tell you this. I think he knew Robbie's. I think he really understood this world. The Friendship between him and Cliff, the banter between guys, the sports talk. He really understands this world, and I think he connected with it on that level too.

[Bill Simmons]

I was reading a different interview where you were talking about, you're like, you know, Tom's not a very good cop. Like, he's not a very good cop. And, you know, Robbie's not a very good.

[Joanna Robinson]

No robber.

[Bill Simmons]

Not a very good criminal. What is more interesting to you about a story of a not very good cop and a not very good criminal sort of barreling towards each other?

[Joanna Robinson]

Yeah, I mean, I think we really leaned into that. I think that, you know, that was something we wanted to wrap our arms around because I felt like we had seen. And we always reference Heat as a structural sort of as a paradigm, you know, because it was a collision course. But if you look at Heat, it was a very high end detective and a high line robbery crew. And I felt like. Or I feel like I'm not that smart of a writer when it comes to characters at the top of their game. I feel like my stronger abilities as a writer are to lean into the flaws and the weaknesses and the vulnerabilities of characters. And also I like to tap into that type of character. And I just find it more interesting. I found it to be more sympathetic, that Robbie was trying to be something he really wasn't, and Tom was trying to be something he wasn't. And I felt that Tom had lived a life of service as a parish priest, and he felt that there was something that he could connect that to the FBI, even though it was wildly different. And Robbie was driven by vengeance, but he didn't quite know how to be a criminal. He's quite. He's strong. He has the physicality, he has the team, but he's not that smart. And I wanted to lean into that. I felt like we wanted them to make mistakes and miss Clues because I would always say to Ruffalo on set, you're not a guy that's good with a gun. You're not gonna see the clues other people miss. What is interesting to me about your character is that you're approaching the job with a lot of compassion and empathy. And for Pelfrey, it's not that you're an amazing criminal, but it's that you're driven by a perhaps misguided love of your brother and a desire to help your children. And, I don't know, as soon as we kind of wrapped our arms around that joint, it just felt way more interesting to me. And I loved how sloppy it was. And I love that they would make these mistakes that we wouldn't expect them to make. And I felt like in some way, all those little mistakes and errors and flaws and make them more real than if they were extremely perceptive and extremely smart about robbing houses. I felt like it, actually, as I started to write it. All the flaws actually drew me closer and I felt more connected to them as people.

[Bill Simmons]

I like that you invoked Heat. Heat is obviously one of the blueprints for this kind of story. And since we are huge Heat fans here at the Ringer from episode one, we were like, okay, here's a cop and here's a criminal. They're on a collision course. So when are we getting our diner scene? Like, when are we getting this diner scene and what episode is it gonna be? What is it gonna be? Like, sort of thing. And we get it of a sort in this car. And something that, you know, one of my co hosts brought up was this idea of, like, how interesting to have them facing the same direction. Instead of, like, you know, classically De Niro Pacino facing each other across a table. You've got them both facing front in this car, looking at each other through the rear view mirror sort of thing. Was that an intentional way to sort of like, let's take three steps away from that iconic thing so we can own it and make it our own thing?

[Joanna Robinson]

Yes, yes, exactly. I think we knew we had to have that moment and just felt like the story demanded that moment. And I loved the idea of that scene. And again, we got that idea from Heat where you're waiting that whole time and then those two characters come together. But you're right, we go, okay, how do we take that idea and do something adjacent? How do we subvert it in some way? And in talking to Jeremiah about it, we loved the idea of them being in a car and driving. And I always, always had the idea that, you know, that Robbie would. He'd be backed into a corner and he would have to kidnap Tom. And I just love the idea that, you know, and it's played so beautifully in this scene by both of them, but especially Mark, in that he feels, you know, there's a sense, there's a sensation at his back for every second of the drive, like a bonfire at his back. He's feeling and he's looking up, and it. I just felt like it added, especially to Mark's character, a tension there of kind of not being able to face this guy, not knowing what he's doing back there, trying to Check the mirrors and get a sense for it. And it just added a layer of tension that we felt was really great. And all the driving scenes were done practically, which I felt was such a beautiful choice that Jeremiah made early in the process, because we've. I don't know, every time I watch a show and you see the green screen, I just. I always feel it. And we made a real effort to shoot all the driving stuff practically. There's a couple shots in there where we just. We were up against it with time and we had to, but not many. And that scene especially, we wanted to shoot on an open road. And anyway, I just felt like as soon as we got in the car and as soon as I saw it on the monitor, it just felt right. And those guys brought it on the day and it was. It's one of the strongest sequences in the series. I think I'm really happy with how that one ended up.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah. And then I love the mirror of, you know, them back in the car together. And this time, sort of Thomas holding him.

[Joanna Robinson]

Yes.

[Bill Simmons]

Ruffalo's, of course, bringing this very paternal. Despite his own dysfunctions as a father, like this very paternal energy here. Leader of a team, obviously a spiritual leader, but you've got these other sort of adoptive parent child relationships going throughout. You've got Perry and Jason. And then in this episode, I thought the sort of Michael Dorsey, Anthony Grasso scene was so incredible, this idea that, you know, Grasso's like, did you tell him I was a good boy? Right. And then the way that Michael sort of, like, shoved, you know, the way that they react is so such a twisted sort of father, son dynamic. So I'm wondering if you could talk about sort of the way that echoes across sort of all the different corners of this story, and if Tom exists. As if, like, don't we wish Grasso had met Thom earlier in his life?

[Joanna Robinson]

I know, it's so true, Jo. I felt like Mare was. It was really a story about mothers. That's what I was really exploring there. And especially Mare as a mother. And I felt like this was a story about father, very much about fathers. And I feel like the Perry Jason relationship is very, very much father, son. And we leaned into that and the same with Dorsey and Grasso. And I think it's, you know, I think it probably stems from, you know, me being a father and my own sort of anxieties and fears and always wondering what are the. Are the good things about myself that my kids are. Are taking away and what are the bad things And I love that you, I love that you say that about Grasso because I always said to Fab and he agreed, like Grasso is a good guy. He, he was failed in his mind by the end, but you know, by some of the institutions, the church, I think he feels has failed him. That's why he's constantly asking Tom, like he wants Tom to convince him that, you know, that God is there, that God is good, that God is, is able to redeem him in some way. He wants to be convinced of that. Unfortunately, he's asking the wrong guy at the wrong time, which is like, this is the absolute wrong guy at the wrong time. There's nothing that Tom is going to say in this moment that's going to help you, Grasso. But I feel like that's why there is a father son relationship with Tom. And Grasso is that he almost. He wishes he had met someone like Tom earlier in his life instead. He's gotten so far down this path. And it's why I really love the scene. I won't spoil it, but there's a great scene in the seventh episode that I really love with him and his sister that I feel like is so moving about how he's kind of lost his way. But I think that's a relationship that echoes in all of the families. And this really is a story about families. The biker family, the Tass family, Tom's family and Robbie's family. And one of the relationships that we always were trying to lean into was the father son dynamic. And I think that's very, that's really perceptive to think that if he had met Tom instead of Michael Dorsey, he would be fine instead. And I think so much of this show is about the choices you make and how they reverberate and the ripple effect of these small choice. Because in my mind, what I always thought about Grasso is he did one thing and he thought, I'll do it this one time. And instead it was, well, now you did it one time. Like there's no getting out of it. And he's been able to maintain this house of cards, Joanna. And only when he comes onto this task force, it's like someone threw the windows open, all the wind's coming in and he's trying to defend it until he can't.

[Bill Simmons]

You know, it's funny, I misremembered the rhythms of Mare. Cause I went back and double checked and my memory was that there was so much more of Mare after the revelation of whodunit inside of Mare. There is Emotionally, you know, Julia Nicholson and Kate are just sort of like, absolutely devastating us. But it's really only sort of like the back 20 of the finale. Here. We've got Robbie has died and Lizzie has died sort of 20 minutes into this episode. And so we've got the rest of this episode and then a whole finale of just sort of cleanup and emotionally sorting through. And all of a sudden, because of Grasso's enormous guilt around, like, I had my eye on him because I'm a. I cover House of the Dragon religiously. So I love this actor. So I had my eye on Grasso this whole time. But he sort of emerges as this other sort of, you know, stealth, surprise, central figure of his moral conundrum. Him saying in the kitchen, you know, she was a good person. Obviously, you set up this ultimate pain of this flirtation romance with Lizzie and Grasso. But how are you envisioning the rhythms of the season, this sort of early climax in one sense, and then not just a denouement, but almost another story here at the end.

[Joanna Robinson]

A couple of things stood out to me that were structural. I would say worries. But one was I just didn't know how long we could keep Sam in the house. And I felt like eventually the audience would get a little bored with it. You know, he's playing with the chicken again. He, you know, like, you know, I was. I was worried, like, what are we doing with Sam? And so every time I would try to write a scene, I felt like we are really spinning our wheels. And instead of trying to jam that through, well, let's look at the note. What's the note behind the note? Well, maybe let's try to subvert expectations. Even with the Tom and Robbie scene, you know, audiences probably would have expected that, as you said, to be the next episode or a little bit further into the story. So I was looking at ways to kind of subvert the expectations of the audience and do something unexpected. And it felt like. And I also felt like, well, again, this was the discovery of Pelfrey's. Like, he's so good. He's so captivating that you go, okay, wow, he's out of the show. How do we sustain the story? And so it became clear that Grasso's storyline and Tom's, all his stuff in his personal life and the dark arts had to carry us until the end of the show. And so we really, really leaned in, into the Grosso angle. Have a great conversation with him and Tom at the end of episode six. That kind of sets up a confrontation that's going to happen in episode seven, or it's gonna lead to something that has to be paid off at least. And I felt like. I was also hopeful that Maeve Emelia is so moving as a character. The audience, she's so great. She's so great. And so I felt like, I'm hopeful we have enough on the bone at the end of six where an audience wants to see what's gonna happen to all these characters who remain. And I hope they feel satisfied with, you know, all the. All the arcs ending, in a way. And I think it was tough to bring it all together, but I think we. I hope we did it in a way that feels hopeful.

[Bill Simmons]

Robbie not making it to me felt like a foregone conclusion. So I wasn't really sort of, like, wondering if he was going to get away or wondering, but I was just sort of like, but is Maeve going to be okay? It was very much on my mind, so that's.

[Joanna Robinson]

It's so funny. My sisters are always texting me about Maeve, and it's a tough testament to Emilia, who's just absolutely incredible in the show. And I think I was so moved by her character because I felt like she had made all these things were happening to her. She had done nothing wrong. She was constantly just trying to stay afloat and get herself out of these situations. And she's definitely a character that I love. And Amelia is just so wonderful.

[Bill Simmons]

Can I ask you. This is a personal fascination of mine. You have so many UK actors in this cast, and a question I had was, is it easier for a UK actor to access the Delco accent than it is for an American actor?

[Joanna Robinson]

In a weird way, I think it's something to do with the training. Joanna. I don't know what it is. I mean, we had Kate who could snap into Delco, and then immediately after cut, it was back to the British. And the same with Amelia. I don't know if it's something with the training, but my experience is, is that they have an easier time accessing the accent. And I don't know if it's because they train in. If they have to practice that in their training more, but. But it is. It's amazing. And also, they're not scared by. A lot of the American actors come and they go, listen, man, this is going to be really tough. You got to get the. But they wrap their arms around it and they're up for the challenge, and they actually kind of. They dig in. And Alison Oliver, who's Irish, is Amazing at it, too. I think she's got a great accent, and she's a trip.

[Bill Simmons]

I think she's the best. Okay, so I want to talk about Allison and Lizzie. One of our listeners actually sort of completely blew me away, I think, a week or two weeks ago by identifying Lizzie as the deer that Samuel was talking about earlier in the season. You know, she was like, you know, Lizzie's the one who freezes. Lizzie. Like, Lizzie and footchases is the one who sort of, like, in an ungainly way, sort of, like, leaping over things. And so, like, will she be? Because we were like, is Sammy the deer? Or something like that. Will she be the deer? And then she got hit by a car. I was like, I can't believe our listener called that, like, two weeks ago. But can you talk about that sort of motif that, like Sammy talking about deer and looking both ways and then culminating in how it is that Lizzie sort of freezes and then doesn't inside of this showdown, which is what we were hoping for her, that she wouldn't freeze when her life is in danger, and then she gets hit by a car and dies.

[Joanna Robinson]

I know, I know, I know.

[Bill Simmons]

Well, it's funny.

[Joanna Robinson]

I always. I love Sam. I loved him. I love that dialogue in the kitchen with Robbie, because I think it kind of. It kind of, you know, it was very innocent, and I believed a kid would say it, and it also spoke to what a sweet, innocent kid he is in the show. And, yeah, the story, I always felt was. It sort of spoke to so many characters, and so, hey, you know, who were kind of rushing into these things without a ton of thought, right? That was Robbie, you know, perhaps Lizzie at times, too. So I never quite connected the deer to Lizzie. I will say that I wish I was smarter than that, but. But I think there's. I love Lizzie as a character, and I think Alyson is just so dang good. Like, I can't really like, again, a character that, on the page was fine, Joanna, but Alyson is just so good. And, you know, one of the lines that always resonated with me, and we fought to keep it in the show because we were up against time, but is when she's in the woods and they're hiding out in the stakeout, and she says, you know, I don't know what my one thing, you know, my one quality is in life. I don't know what it is. And. And that, to me, just. It really resonated because I know so many people. I'm lucky to have have landed on something that I really love to do. But so many people I know are out there working jobs that they're not passionate about or don't know what it is they're passionate about. And I know so many people in life who are like that that are looking to, you know, land on the one thing that gets them out of bed that gets them passionate. And I just loved that line because it feels. It felt like she hadn't quite been able to find herself in life yet. She was on the path. And then as you said, she has this great moment of heroism in the woods where she's scared, scared. And then she gets the courage to do this one thing and you feel like, oh wow, she's going to take this and she's going to carry it with her into this other part of life after this sequence and then bang. Everything that Grasso has set up, the chickens have come to roost in his life in a way. And yeah, it was a heartbreaker because Alicent again, another one of those things where you get to the edit and you go, oh my God, people are gonna hate us. Because Alyson is so lovable as a character.

[Bill Simmons]

Can I tell you a weird side story? Is that when I was covering mayor of Easttown at a different outlet and it was the kind of place where I was watching this, in this coverage I'm watching week to week because we're podcasting about it, we're theorizing, I don't want to get ahead. But in that other outlet, I watched all the screeners that were sent out and I don't know if you remember this, but when Evan Peters character died, the VFX weren't done and so the blood spatter that hit the wall was not there. So I was like, maybe he'll be okay. I was like, maybe that wasn't a fatal shot. And then I saw it for real. I was like, oh no. Okay, all right, all right, I see, I see.

[Joanna Robinson]

Oh my God. I think people still hate about that. And again, a testament to Evan, you know, for being so incredibly lovable and charming because he just, he. There's so many, so many people who still come up to me about that scene.

[Bill Simmons]

Well, I wanted to ask you because I think you undersell yourself, but I've heard you say that you don't think that you're really like a big picture plot guy, but you like these little interpersonal interaction scenes are your favorite sort of to write and sometimes you sort of think of those and then think of the plot as a Shell around it. And, of course, like, one of the reasons why Zabel's death means so much in Mare is that barroom scene that Evan has to do earlier. And you mentioned Tom's audition being this Robbie Cliff conversation scene, which was my favorite scene of the premiere. And so I was wondering if you had a favorite either small ball interaction or monologue of this season that you got to write that you were most. You were just like, this is it. This is the juice.

[Joanna Robinson]

Oh, yeah. I mean, it's so funny because that, you know, all the scenes you just talked about, those are the ones that get me out of bed. Like, I love those scenes. Like, you know, Grasso and Lizzie at the bar and getting to pick the specific music and getting to, you know, to find those moments where Allison, you know, her eyes light up and she like, I love those scenes. Those are the ones that, you know, I hate editing procedural stuff. I'm always like, God, get me through this. Just, like, move the ball down the field five yards. Let's just get the clue and go to the next scene. But I would say a couple come to mind, like, you scenes that I'm really proud of in the show. The dinner table scene, I think, is an episode two. I thought we did a really good. Really good job with that scene. And that, to me, was good because it was moving the plot ahead in that, oh, now Tom is stuck between his two daughters. But also, I felt like it revealed a lot of hurt, a lot of emotional baggage that everyone was dealing. So I felt like if a scene was working on two levels emotionally and then also moving the plot. I love Aaliyah confessing to Shelley that she was abused and that she's stuck. I love that scene. I really like the bedroom scene where Allison's offering Kyu. That one gets me. I thought that was really funny. Obviously, Tom and Robbie in the car was a really fun sequence. You know, a scene I really like in the show is when Tom comes home with Sam and his daughters come in the kitchen. They're like, why is this kid here? And he's like, oh, I didn't know what to do with them. And does anyone want a peanut butter and jelly sandwich? I love to find the moments of humor, Johanna, because if you take an aerial view of the show, it's quite heavy. And so I'm always most excited about the character beats. And honestly, those are the moments that get me the most excited. The procedural stuff, I feel, is I have to write it. And we have great advisors who help with those scenes. But they don't get me very excited, I have to be honest. And it's all the little kind of weird characters moments. Like on Mayor, I loved writing Jean Smart getting hit by the door, and all the goofiness that happened in the family. Those are my favorite scenes. But I really do feel like the plot is just an excuse where I get to spend time with all these characters that I really, really love, and I truly feel that way. And again, I know we have to have a plot and people have to click to the next episode, but I love those little moments most. I think they are what, as a writer gets me excited about, writing all those characters as moments of connection and humor.

[Bill Simmons]

I could watch Lizzie and Anthony talk about his DJ career forever.

[Joanna Robinson]

I could, too. By the way, I hope there's a spinoff eventually where I get to write those scenes, because I love to write them and it's so funny. And anyway. And those two together are just so good, you know?

[Bill Simmons]

Okay, so this is my last question. You mentioned spinoff. I've seen a million people ask you about sort of a task, season two, and your answer is sort of changing as the season goes on. You were like, sort of at the beginning. You're like, let's see if people even like this. People obviously like it. But what I'm curious about, I've heard you talk about this place as like a place you're interested in. And so I'm curious if. If you wanted to continue more task, is it the place that you're interested in following or is it sort of like, I would still want Ruffalo at the center of it or some or more character following? Do you know what I mean?

[Joanna Robinson]

Yeah, I think if we did another. It's a great question. I think if we did another task, I think there would have to be some. You know, I would want to explore this at least some of the same characters, you know, I would want to bring them back in a way and take them, I think a part of the fun of. Of task. And again, this is probably a selfish thing here. Joanna is like, I do think a part of the fun of task is that again, I get to write another group of people on a task force. For me, that is the joy. Wait, I get to create a couple new characters to put on a task force and explore their dynamic over the course of a case. But having said that, I do think that if we did another task, I would like to ground it in Mark's character in some way and bring him back because I do feel like. And I felt this way very much about Mayer is like, I feel like there's an interesting. Like there's still more to his journey here. I just find Mark's life situation so in the best possible way as a writer. So messy and complicated. And that's always really, I would say, good soil. You know, when something's really messy and complicated, it's good to start from there. People always say, why do you write such dark things? And I'm going, well, if people were happy, I wouldn't have a story, you know? So, like, I feel like they have to move away from something or they're. Or either they're stuck or they're trapped or there's a. In Mare's case, she wouldn't confront the death of her son. In Tom's case, he wasn't going to have forgiveness in his heart. I would love to bring him back. And I love the idea of, like, who are, you know, who are the characters he has to work with. That was such a joy to write. The Grassos and Lizzies and Aaliyah's. And I love the idea of. Again, I really see myself as a character writer. The more characters I get to create, the happier I'll be.

[Bill Simmons]

Joanna, excellent. Well, I look forward to whatever that looks like.

[Joanna Robinson]

Oh, thank you.

[Bill Simmons]

However long I have to wait for it. And thanks so much for the chat. I really appreciate it.

[Joanna Robinson]

Of course. Thanks, Joanna. I really appreciate you guys talking about the show.

[Chris Ryan]

Thanks to Brad Inglesby for joining us. Thanks to Joanna. Sorry Rob couldn't make it this time around. Thanks to Chris for helping out as well. Who else helped us out, Justin? Probably Kai, who's probably helping out somewhere in the background. So thanks to everybody. We'll be back for episode seven season finale in one week.

[Bill Simmons]

Thanks.

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