‘The Bear’ Season 4, Episodes 1-3: Back in Business (For Now)

Summary

The Prestige TV Podcast: In-Depth Analysis of 'The Bear' Season 4, Episodes 1-3

Episode Title: ‘The Bear’ Season 4, Episodes 1-3: Back in Business (For Now)
Host/Authors: Charles Holmes & Van Lathan
Release Date: June 26, 2025

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Introduction

In this episode of The Prestige TV Podcast, hosts Charles Holmes and Van Lathan—collectively known as the Midnight Boys—delve into the first three episodes of the fourth season of the critically acclaimed series 'The Bear'. Released on June 26, 2025, the discussion navigates through the show's evolving narrative, character development, and thematic depth, providing listeners with a comprehensive analysis.

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Overview of 'The Bear' Season 4 Episodes 1-3

The hosts commence by outlining the central plot of the episodes, highlighting Chef Carmi's ongoing struggles to balance personal growth with his professional ambitions. They emphasize the show's return to its foundational themes after a more experimental third season.

Charles Holmes:
"We're back to discuss season four of The Bear. [...] Just give us the moments where we have to serve their own different meal, in a way." (02:00–03:00)

Van Lathan:
"So when Rachel [...] did not win, Mallory Rubin becomes the face of the Ringer." (04:00–04:31)

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Key Themes and Discussions

1. Personal Growth vs. Professional Obsession

Van Lathan articulates that the essence of 'The Bear' lies in exploring how personal development intertwines with professional dedication. The first three episodes of Season 4 signify a deliberate move to re-establish this balance.

"The Bear has always been to me, a show that is asking the question about how personal growth connects to professional obsession and the quest for professional excellence." (06:43)

Charles Holmes echoes this sentiment, noting the engrossing nature of Carmi’s journey to overcome personal ruts and strive for excellence.

"With this season, I'm like, oh, it's far more engrossing and entertaining to me, seeing someone climb themselves out of that." (08:05–08:15)

2. Character Development and Relationships

The conversation delves deep into Carmi's character arc, particularly his introspection about being perceived as an "asshole" in his relentless pursuit of culinary perfection.

Van Lathan:
"The question of why I'm an asshole is a more profound question." (10:36)

They also explore Sid's role, portraying her as the emotional heartbeat of the restaurant and discussing her balancing act between professional responsibilities and personal aspirations.

"She's essential, but there's life for her there. There's dad, there's opportunity." (35:47)

3. Balance of Drama and Humor

Holmes and Lathan commend the show's adeptness at blending intense dramatic moments with humor, enhancing viewer engagement and emotional investment.

"This show asks so many questions. I love stuff about chefs." (49:51)

Charles Holmes:
"Before the stoop scene, he endures that nut kicking. He deserved it. But the laugh made that scene easier to take." (22:25)

4. Authenticity vs. Elevated Storytelling

The hosts discuss the tension between maintaining authenticity and pursuing elevated, avant-garde storytelling. They draw parallels with other shows like 'Atlanta' and 'Always Sunny', emphasizing the importance of staying true to the core narrative while exploring creative innovations.

"I want it to be authentic. I want it to be authentic and it can still be moving." (30:09)

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Notable Scenes and Their Significance

Carmi and Mikey’s Conversation: A pivotal moment where Carmi and Mikey discuss their father’s restaurant, revealing Carmi's nostalgia and Mikey's critical perspective. This dialogue underscores Carmi's internal conflict between cherished memories and the harsh realities of business.

"Carmi is trying to ask Mikey about their dad and telling him why his father's happiness [...] and why Carmi wants to recreate that feeling for other people." (09:00–10:26)

Signature Moments:

• The Snow Sandwich: The staff’s creative rendition of a winter-themed sandwich symbolizes their collective effort and Carmi’s gradual loosening of control, fostering teamwork and innovation.

"It's a season about whether or not Carmi can be a little bit more of a person and whether or not being a little bit more of a person is gonna make him a better chef." (12:00–12:27)

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Quotes with Speaker Attribution and Timestamps

• Van Lathan:
  "The Bear has always been to me, a show that is asking the question about how personal growth connects to professional obsession and the quest for professional excellence." (06:43)

• Charles Holmes:
  "With this season, I'm like, oh, it's far more engrossing and entertaining to me, seeing someone climb themselves out of that." (08:05–08:15)

• Van Lathan:
  "The question of why I'm an asshole is a more profound question." (10:36)

• Charles Holmes:
  "Before the stoop scene, he endures that nut kicking. He deserved it. But the laugh made that scene easier to take." (22:25)

• Van Lathan:
  "I want it to be authentic. I want it to be authentic and it can still be moving." (30:09)

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Conclusions and Final Thoughts

As the discussion wraps up, Holmes and Lathan express their admiration for the initial episodes, lauding the show's fast-paced storytelling, emotional depth, and the seamless integration of humor and drama. They anticipate that the remaining episodes will continue to build on the established momentum, further exploring the nuanced dynamics of the restaurant and its staff.

Charles Holmes:
"First three episodes of the show. Fantastic." (54:03)

Van Lathan:
"Really in love with what they're doing was great. Moves very fast." (54:04–54:11)

They encourage listeners to stay tuned for the rest of the season, promising more insightful discussions in future episodes.

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Closing Remarks

The Prestige TV Podcast successfully navigates the intricate layers of 'The Bear' Season 4, Episodes 1-3, offering listeners a rich and engaging analysis. Through thoughtful discourse and sharp observations, Charles Holmes and Van Lathan provide an invaluable guide for both avid fans and newcomers to the series.

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Transcript

[Van Lathan]

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[Charles Holmes]

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[Charles Holmes]

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[Van Lathan]

To you by LifeLock.

[Charles Holmes]

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[Van Lathan]

You by Apple Pay. No matter where you're going this summer, odds are you'll need to pay for a few things like a ride, share.

[Charles Holmes]

A souvenir or or dinner at that.

[Van Lathan]

Spot on your bucket list.

[Charles Holmes]

Instead of digging for your wallet every time, just use Apple Pay. It's accepted anywhere you see the contact list symbol and all it takes is a tap with iPhone or Apple Watch. The best part is you'll still earn the card rewards, points and cash back you love.

[Van Lathan]

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[Charles Holmes]

Welcome to the Prestige TV podcast, where the menu was still chaotic and we blame our elegance for the flower budget. I'm Charles Holmes, he's Van Lathan. Together we're known as the Midnight Boys and we're back to discuss season four of the Bear. How are you doing today, Van?

[Van Lathan]

Big confidence monitor.

[Charles Holmes]

There's a big A leg usually takes this away.

[Van Lathan]

On Midnight Boys we can't even see it. But I'm glad. I love. I love a confidence monitor.

[Charles Holmes]

I'm great talking about the confidence monitor, were you going to inform me that about our wardrobe? We're matching. We look like fucking boys to men. I like that shit.

[Van Lathan]

We should wear this every single time. I didn't even realize it we should wear this every single time we do the bear podcast. Or maybe we should dress up like they dress up. What do they wear? They're wearing, like, the white.

[Charles Holmes]

White with the apron.

[Van Lathan]

Yeah, this is our first one. Like, prestige, like on the.

[Charles Holmes]

On the. On the tv. Finally fucking gave us the fucking budget.

[Van Lathan]

Yeah. Gave us the vibes here. I'm fantastic because I got to watch some good tv. Yeah.

[Charles Holmes]

Hell, yeah. But we need to do some housekeeping. So if you guys don't know who we are, we are the Midnight Boys. And I think this is the third year in a row. We started with season two where we're covering the bear. So we're gonna be covering three episodes each show. If you like what you hear, you can hear van twice a week on Higher Learning. If you like what you hear on this podcast, the Midnight. The Midnight Boys have one of the. The most consequential summers coming up right now. Superman, Fantastic Four, Jurassic, Jurassic Park. So make sure that you go click and subscribe and make sure that you click and subscribe to the Ringer TV YouTube channel or watch us right on Spotify.

[Van Lathan]

Yeah. I gotta say that Rob Mahoney and Joe have been holding it down over here.

[Charles Holmes]

They have.

[Van Lathan]

They've been doing their thing, and I'm with it. I enjoy what's happening over on the Prestige TV podcast.

[Charles Holmes]

Talking about Rob, Joe, where we at with the face of the ringer? It was Mallory Rubin, dark horse Kennedy, dark horse candidate. But I like this.

[Van Lathan]

So the finals were Bill, Sean, Mallory, Chris Ryan. I thought for sure that Chris would win. What I didn't realize, though, was that Rachel, Lindsay and Chris Ryan have some. I want to say beef, but there's a thing there. So when Rachel. Whose decision it was the face of the Ringer decision. I chose the finalist, she chose the winner. We scored the entire group of perspectives, and she scored Mallory the highest. Mallory Rubin, face of the ringer.

[Charles Holmes]

Rachel Lindsay might be the only person at the Ringer who doesn't like Chris Riot.

[Van Lathan]

Rachel Lindsay.

[Charles Holmes]

What did you guys go to Rachel?

[Van Lathan]

There was some talk about what happened on the last podcast. I guess there was something back in the day where Chris did not. Wasn't recognized by Rachel. Okay, Rachel didn't recognize Chris. That happened on the Higher Learning. And then I don't know if there was some kind of awkward meeting. Their frenemies is how Rachel described them. And so Chris, the leader and frontrunner and the people's choice for face of the Ringer, did not win.

[Charles Holmes]

Melly Rubin, shout out Shadow fucking battle.

[Van Lathan]

Hell yeah, that's like a home game for me.

[Charles Holmes]

I loved it. But as to non faces of the we weren't there.

[Van Lathan]

We didn't make the finals.

[Charles Holmes]

Anyway, are you ready to get into the first three episodes of the Bear? I'm going to give us a little background, some plot and then get right into the episode. Christopher Storer, creator of the Bear, back directing the first three episodes. He writes the first. He gets an assist on the second episode in their director's chair with Duccio Fabbri and Katharine Schettina and Renee Gubb write the second and third episodes. If I butchered any of those names, I'm very sorry. And in this first trio, we start in the wake of the Chicago Tribune's middling review, Carmi is stuck in a Groundhog Day of his own making. He's trying to be less miserable, quit smoking and be a better boss. But Uncle Jimmy and the computer inform the crew that they only have two months to save the restaurant. Carmi decides the only way to keep the place open is chasing a Michelin star. The rest of the crew do their to rise to the occasion. Sid pushes back on Carmi Moore and takes a larger role in shaping the menu and kitchen. Richie hires his old buddies from Ever, Jessica, Renee and Gary. Tina, Marcus and Sweeps are taking more ownership of their stations, while Ibrahim is devoting himself to the only profitable part of the business, the Italian beef sandwiches. Feeling better about his new lease on life, Carmi goes to apologize to Claire and admit that he loves her. But his old flame isn't ready to fully invite Carmi back into her life. And with all that being said, Van Instant reactions First three episodes I thought.

[Van Lathan]

They made a very important decision in these first three episodes, which was to get back to what I felt like the ethos of the show was. The Bear has always been to me, a show that is asking the question about how personal growth connects to professional obsession and the quest for professional excellence. I thought the third season lost that a little bit.

[Charles Holmes]

Yep.

[Van Lathan]

I thought the third season of the show, even though it rounded itself out in a great way, the third season lost a little bit of the personal aspect of the show in terms of the characters and their growth. I'm not saying that there wasn't personal stuff that happened in the third season. There was, but I think some of the really intense moments of the show became the entire show in the third season, along with some stunt casting. What I really enjoyed about these first three episodes is they were able to use a dramatic device which is a legitimate or A literal running clock on the Bear. Along with Carmi just letting go. Yeah, letting go. And being a little bit more devoted to his growth as a person and orienting the first three shows around that. I was able to fall into it a little bit more than I was the last season of the show.

[Charles Holmes]

I could not agree more because I think with last season, I think it's a very interesting gamble to create an entire season about someone who was stuck in a rut.

[Van Lathan]

Yeah.

[Charles Holmes]

But with this season, I'm like, oh, it's far more engrossing and entertaining to me, seeing someone climb themselves out of that. Where I feel like in the last season, great. Like, it felt like Carmi was almost at rock bottom. Like he had gotten everything he wanted. He had gotten the bear. He had finally opened this restaurant. But it seemed like he was at rock bottom with his grief, with his relationship with this woman and everything. And this. At least the first three episodes, it felt like a breath of fresh air to me. It felt like, oh, more. More sitcom y. More just like, oh, I get to hang out with my friends again, and I get to see them all facing challenges. And to me, I know I don't want to seem reductive, but it just was a more enjoyable show to watch almost.

[Van Lathan]

Yeah, I agree. So something happens at the very beginning of the show. It's Mikey, who Jon Bernthal's character is back. It's the first scene that we see him. He always. He pops into the show like Darth Vader, you know, the Kevin Smith Darth Vader thing. You don't want to see too much of Darth Vader because too much of Darth Vader would take away the mystique of the character. They're doing a great job in sprinkling that character in, like, you know, Darth Vader from Star Wars, Giving us just enough of him so that we see him and, like, understand his place in this universe. But they have a conversation at the beginning when he's stirring the spaghetti sauce and they're talking about their dad. Carmi doesn't know him as well. Mikey does. And Mikey is trying to convince Carmi that their father's an asshole. Carmi is trying to ask Mikey about their dad and telling him why his father's happiness when he was in this one particular restaurant, why it meant so much to Carmi and why Carmi wants to recreate that feeling for other people. That, to me, was an awesome scene in plotting out the emotional path of the show.

[Charles Holmes]

It gave me something. I'm like, okay, this is what you guys are marching towards, right?

[Van Lathan]

Because the most fundamental question anyone can ask themselves is, why am I an asshole?

[Charles Holmes]

Yep.

[Van Lathan]

Not whether or not you're an asshole or not. Most assholes know that they're assholes.

[Charles Holmes]

You're talking to someone who is the supreme asshole knows this.

[Van Lathan]

The question of why I'm an asshole is a more profound question. Because that's a question that you ask whether it's worth it.

[Charles Holmes]

Yeah.

[Van Lathan]

Because if it's worth it to be an asshole, if you gotta be an asshole to be Steve Jobs, or if you gotta be an asshole to be Kobe Bryant, or if you gotta be an asshole to be Oprah Winfrey, if you got it, then you might say, you know what? People having this perception of me, people looking at me like this, it's worth it. Because I have greatness to give to the world. I have personal greatness. I have inspiration, I have innovation to give to the world. But if it's not the moment that. It's not the moment that what you can produce isn't worth the pain that you give to people, you should change.

[Charles Holmes]

Yeah.

[Van Lathan]

And Carmi is asking himself this question. They're asking Carmi to do a little less. Take a couple of things off the plate. Be more about connection. Be more about what you're putting into people. Because as great as you are at this, the asshole that we're getting for your greatness, we don't like it. And it's actually holding us back.

[Charles Holmes]

And even the world in the Chicago Tribune is like, is this worth it?

[Van Lathan]

Yeah. You're not. It's. Is it worth it? It's not worth it. It's everything about you that's not connecting with people. Your dissonance, your aloofness, your unpredictability, your chaos. It's in the food. Yeah, it's in the food. So this is a season about whether or not Carmi can be a little bit more of a person and whether or not being a little bit more of a person is gonna make him a better chef.

[Charles Holmes]

I mean, going back to that scene with him and Mikey in the beginning, it's so interesting because Carmi's recollection of this Irish restaurant is the rose colored glasses where he just remembers his father being happy. And it takes Mikey to be like, that restaurant was a piece of shit. It smelled like shit. It wasn't that great. And that whole time I was thinking, I was just like, oh, Carmi is saying one thing and doing another where he wants to make a restaurant that people can return to. And form memories with their family. And they can impart this joy. But in actuality, with the Bear, he's not creating a restaurant that is like that. He's not giving people what they want. The people want the sandwiches. And he's just like, no, you gotta take my chaos menu. You gotta take the dissonance. This is what's really important. And that was so interesting to me in that first scene. Cause I'm like, does Carmi have it within himself to give people what they want? Which is these sandwiches and this feeling of this communal place in our city where I can go for lunch and I can go for dinner. And I know what I'm getting every single time. And that's enough.

[Van Lathan]

It's such a profound question. But it's a question that the show's gonna try to ask. Because even while we're doing this, we're seeing other people who are maybe moving in a different way. We're seeing Sid, who's getting contacted by her father over and over and over again. And isn't picking up the phone because she's too consumed with what's going on at the Bear. It's an interesting question, though. And the reason why I say it's interesting is because two things I think Carmi and Mike's conversation is about the different ways that they look at it. Both of those things are probably true. One, that restaurant did suck. But two, their dad was really happy there.

[Charles Holmes]

Yeah.

[Van Lathan]

So what matters more? The quality of the restaurant or how the restaurant makes you feel when you're in there?

[Charles Holmes]

I mean, I have to ask you this question. Cause it's not something I experienced until I was older. Where I remember restaurants I used to go to in my hometown. And the way I feel about them when I come back. Where you're just like, oh, this fish wasn't as good. It's like, I've had more. I've had more excellent food. But sometimes when you go back, I'm like, oh, it doesn't matter. Because the way the place smells, the way it feels, the memories I have, you can't tell me it's a piece of shit. I'm just like. And that's what I'm what's interesting to me. Whereas I'm just like. Sometimes for restaurants, it's not always about the food. It's about, like, when I come back to this diner, when I come back to this soul food place, when I get this burger, is it how I remembered it when I was here with everyone in my life?

[Van Lathan]

Yeah. I mean, for Me, everything is about that. Like, I remember the best meals I've ever had, but more than those meals, I remember who I was eating with.

[Charles Holmes]

Yeah.

[Van Lathan]

So that's the question that the show is trying to ask. And this was a little bit more Carmi focused in terms. It wasn't necessarily Carmi focused these three episodes, but he was always looming all the things that were left unsaid, someone was asking him to say them.

[Charles Holmes]

Yeah.

[Van Lathan]

Everything that was left not litigated, someone was asking him to come to terms with it. And then you get to the third episode, and you get to one of the more moving aspects. Excuse me. One of the more moving scenes of the show, which is when the staff of the Bear goes out of their way to make this one group feel completely awesome.

[Charles Holmes]

It's a family where basically Richie is realizing that their surprise budget has been slashed, and they're like, what can we do? And it's this family who I think either has a gift card, they're really excited. Their daughter is in remission. She hasn't had cancer for a couple months. And they go out of their way to not only make the beef sandwich, which is only allowed or is only served during lunch, they also make this very vivid snow in the middle of summer whenever it is. And to your point, I was just like, oh, this is what happens when Carmi lets go. This is when he lets people like Richie and lets people like IBRA and lets the people around him, even Sid with the scallop blossom. It's almost weird where it's like, the more and more Carmi lets go of the Bear, the more it starts succeeding and actually being the thing that he.

[Van Lathan]

Was talking to Mikey about, certainly, because the Michelin star guy is obviously that guy that he's like, yeah, Mr. Clark.

[Charles Holmes]

They don't hide it. I was even looking. I was just like, is there a. I guess there's a Clark street in Chicago.

[Van Lathan]

I looked it up, and right away, that was the guy. Right? That's obviously the guy. And he's seeing what they're willing to go through. He's seeing that they know the emotion that they want to get from people, which was what they didn't know before. They were trying to be so excellent and so bleeding edge. Not even cutting edge. I like saying bleeding edge. That they were missing. The thing that Carmi and Mike were talking about. Something else that you talked about a little earlier that you brought up is that, like, I guess it is true that Carmi doesn't want to serve the beef. I want to Ask you something. Serve the beef. I want to ask you something. Carmi doesn't want to serve the beef. He wants to do something more than the beef. That made me think about Tyler Perry, not about what's in the news now. It made me think about Tyler Perry because there are two schools of thought. One school of thought. I wrote this piece a long time ago. I'm sure he never read it, but it was saying that Tyler Perry was giving us fried fish Cinema.

[Charles Holmes]

Yeah.

[Van Lathan]

Meaning that fried fish is easy. It's never gonna be too bad if you fry catfish and you season it right. You fry it hard enough, it's good. Right. But inside of him, there's probably a better filmmaker somewhere.

[Charles Holmes]

Yeah.

[Van Lathan]

Because if you can make amazing fried catfish and it's good, and it really is the type of comfort food that people love, at some point, you could probably cobble together some ingredients and push yourself to make something a little bit better. The question is, do you give people what they want, or do you stretch the expectation of what it is that they want? Because in that extra 30 or 40% that they have to give is really what life is about, which is unexpected bliss.

[Charles Holmes]

Yeah.

[Van Lathan]

And so when I'm looking at the sandwiches and I'm looking at the bear, it's really, to me about how much Carmi can push people and how much he needs to push people to be able to express himself through his culinary excellence. So how much is too much?

[Charles Holmes]

That's so interesting because that's exactly what I was thinking about when I was watching it. But also, there's almost this meta. This meta thing running through the season. And I don't know if Christopher Storr intended it this way, but if you look at, like, the trajectory of the narrative of the bear in terms of, like, what we're watching on TV over these three, four seasons, and then everything happening around the bear, it's like third season. That's the chaos menu. That's where the first episode of that season, if you remember, was almost a tone poem. It wasn't even that much of a story. It's like we're seeing all these. It's beautifully shot, but we're seeing all these memories. We're seeing all this music, blah, blah, blah, blah. And then we're getting stunt castings, we're getting, you know, the ice chips episodes and all these celebrities and everything. It's high level tv, but almost the audience rejects it in the same way that the Chicago Tribune rejects the bear. They reject this dish.

[Van Lathan]

That's the point.

[Charles Holmes]

And with this season I was like, I don't know if this was intentional, but it almost felt like in the same way that Sid's, like, we could still make. Maybe it's not high, like fancy food, but we could still make great food with three or two components versus five.

[Van Lathan]

Yeah.

[Charles Holmes]

You know what I mean? Do you need a chaos menu? Do you need dissonance to be talented? Or can you do less and give people what they want? And I was just like, I wanted to ask you, do you think that that's something that the creators were doing intentionally of like, oh, no. Now we see what happens when we push the menu too far and how an audience can be like, fuck the bear, Fuck this. This isn't what I want.

[Van Lathan]

It could be. I think that that's a fantastic point and an awesome perspective also. I'll tell you this, the show is funny. These three episodes were funny.

[Charles Holmes]

They were funny.

[Van Lathan]

And that at points last year, I wondered if the bear was okay being funny. I mean, they did a couple of things that were obviously trying to be funny, like the haunting thing and all of that stuff. But I was wondering if the show was okay with people being comfortable and laughing at it. Yeah. And even in this episode, to your point, I think they probably made peace with the fact that there's a lot of comedic talent out there and the show works best when funny things are happening. Don't get me wrong, we can do a 21 minute episode where it is highly intense and. And Jeremy Allen White looks like he is about to split in half with the amount of pressure that's on him. And that's awesome. But when he goes to Claire's house and Ted answers the door, it's hysterical. And you need a little bit of a laugh.

[Charles Holmes]

Yes.

[Van Lathan]

Before they have that excruciating scene on the front stoop.

[Charles Holmes]

The laugh made me. The laugh made that scene easier to take.

[Van Lathan]

Yeah, you need a little bit of a laugh. If she answers the door right then. And then he has to endure that nut kicking. He deserved it. Right? He deserved it. But if she answers the door right then, it's like, oh, my God, you want things to go well for Carmi so badly. And look at this. We have to watch this now. But they let you breathe a little bit. They let you breathe a little bit. Tate is hysterical. And then they get into what has to happen on the stoop, which is, she can't just allow him to come back after months of being absent and go, hey, I love you, everything's okay. Let's just pick back up where we left off. So to your point, I think the show has made a little bit of. Well, has made peace with why we actually love it. Look, it's three episodes in. It's three episodes in. None of what's happening this season could have been done without last season being a little bit of a departure.

[Charles Holmes]

Yeah.

[Van Lathan]

So it was probably necessary. But at the same time, I viewed it. We're only three episodes in as a return to form. But not just a return to form, but a return to what made me love the show in the first place. The Disney Hulu Max Bundle. It's the ultimate bundle for an unbelievable price plan starting at $16.99 a month. Get it and watch Marvel Television's Ironheart on Disney. I want to build something iconic. A new season of the Bear on Hulu. We can make people happy and be every epic.

[Charles Holmes]

A Minecraft movie on Max. Anything you can imagine is possible.

[Van Lathan]

The Disney Plus Hulu Max bundle plan starting at 16.99amonth. All these and more streaming soon.

[Charles Holmes]

Terms apply.

[Van Lathan]

Visit disney+hulu maximumbo.com for details.

[Charles Holmes]

Jeremy Allen White is doing something that he's so good with, but I think that I've maybe lost a little patience with, which is like, yo, Carmi is. He sulks, and you see everybody around him being like, damn, this motherfucker sulking again. And then Richie is just like, is this performative? And I'm like, oh, this is. This is a TV show laughing at itself. And I was just like. It was that moment where I'm like, oh, okay. At least I think it's complicated. When Carmi calls Pete to be like, yo, change the contract. I'm like, ah, he might go back. He might. He's on the cigarettes again. He might go back. But there was that moment where I'm like, oh, the show knows that this can feel a little bit too much.

[Van Lathan]

What do you think that call was about?

[Charles Holmes]

So I think that when. Because it's interesting also this season is very much the symbolism is they're hitting you over the head with it. I think the cigarette and how much Carmi wants a cigarette, obviously, is like, am I gonna go back to my old ways? Am I gonna go back to my old ways? And I think when he touches the freezer handle and decides, I need to go apologize to Claire, I think that that's the moment where he's just like, I'm giving myself over to this process. I'm trying to be a better person. And then I think something that happens in life all the time when Claire rejects that moment almost and not fully, but it's just like, you just can't worm yourself back into my life. I think he makes that call to be like, what's the first thing he says to Pete? It's not. He's like, yo, shut up, shut up. Just change the thing. I think that's him being like, this isn't Yalls anymore. This isn't Sid's anymore. This is mine now. I might be wrong, but I think they gave us three episodes of thinking that Carmi has changed. And I think Carmi does something that's very, very human, which is just like the moment you don't get what you want after you're trying to make this big life altering. Like, I'm gonna be better. I'm gonna be nicer to all my family and all my friends, and I'm gonna be there. The moment when she doesn't go your way. How many people in our lives do we know where they're just like, fuck it?

[Van Lathan]

Well, yeah, because you start to think better will happen when I start to do better. And if it doesn't, you can sometimes get a little played or feel a little played. Should I say I just. So everyone knows we have screeners, okay? We have screeners of the show. I'm saying that because it's very important for me to share this with people. I could have very easily watched forward before we did this podcast today.

[Charles Holmes]

I wanted to watch forward.

[Van Lathan]

I did too. I almost did, but I didn't. And I didn't because I was so wound up in the narrative of the show that I wanted to talk to you and maintain the anticipation of what's gonna happen next before we podcast. And that told me that the drama is unfolding in the way it's.

[Charles Holmes]

I didn't feel that way last season as much of like the nar. Like the very sitcom, but dramatic elements of it made me were the thrust of like, I wanna see if Carmi can stay on the mend. I wanna see. I mean, can stay at this heightened level of himself. Richie. I wanna. Is Richie gonna go to the wedding?

[Van Lathan]

Yeah.

[Charles Holmes]

Is Richie gonna. When Richie was watching the Ridley Scott fucking video.

[Van Lathan]

Yeah.

[Charles Holmes]

I was like, that's compelling to. It's compelling.

[Van Lathan]

It's funny.

[Charles Holmes]

It's funny. It's compelling. It's like, can he be a leader when he's going back seeing Richie and Sid, where Sid stabbed him at the end of the first season and now to see their relationship being like, hey, is this good? Is this speech like that to me, I was like, oh, this was always the show. And maybe they got a little bit too away from it, But I was enthralled. I thought that this had such a momentum to it.

[Van Lathan]

Yeah, it had absolute momentum to it. They didn't waste any scenes. I thought they wasted some scenes last year. They didn't waste any scenes. Even the fat in there is something that gives the rest of the entire show flavor. Even the scenes where Sugar is in there, she's not at the restaurant, she's taking care of her baby. All of those scenes matter. Yeah, Everything with Sid's dad matters. Everything with everyone's individual journey, which we got back to people's individual journeys and how they have to push themselves. Right. Cause you started to ask yourself at some point, this is a workplace situation comedy to a degree. It's an elevated version of that, by the way. This elevated version of shit. That's very hit or miss. I go back to New Orleans now. I've been back to New Orleans more this year. Back to New Orleans. To New Orleans. I'm from Baton Rouge. Been to New Orleans more this year than I have been in past years. Right. I went. I've been four times back to Louisiana. Right? And sometimes elevated is not better. It's not. When I go to New Orleans, you know, this place, different restaurants, it's all of this fine dining. You go there and they want to give you a frog leg. Po boy with this different type of stuff. And you're like, okay, you know, you fucking go to Dragos. You go to Landry's. You go to different places. Even Acme Oyster House, which is for tourists. Some of these places for tourists. But, like, mothers with amazing. All of these places. When I want to feel the city, that's where I go. I don't need it elevated. You know, there's some new places that they have now, they morrows and all of that stuff that's making really good food. But I want it to be not elevated. I want it to be authentic. I want it to be authentic. Elevated. Don't matter. Don't put no quinoa in the gumbo. Like, I don't want.

[Charles Holmes]

Wait, who's putting quinoa in gumbo?

[Van Lathan]

It's the whole thing.

[Charles Holmes]

Wait, is this an actual thing that's happening?

[Van Lathan]

Yeah, they got quinoa.

[Charles Holmes]

Why?

[Van Lathan]

Because maybe some people don't want the rice, they want the gumbo, but they want a little quinoa. Da da wah. I mean, like, you know, so I'm saying it doesn't have to be elevated, but it can still be authentic and it can be moving. Moving is what you want. The show got back to that. This was not as ambitious as last season was. Not by any stretch of the imagination, but it was incredibly grounded and moving.

[Charles Holmes]

Before we get off that, I want to ask you, though, because I feel like this is stuff that we talk about on the Midnight Boys, where it's not just superhero content. It's. To me, it feels like movies, tv, food, just culture, where it seems like we're moving out of that moment where for so long, it felt like, elevated. We want things to be different. We want it to be the best. We want our food to be Michelin star. We want our movies to be fucking. We need Atlanta. We need this, we need that. We need prestige. And it feels like this show, but also the moment that we're in is people being like, can you just make stuff simple again? Can you just make. Can you make something hardy and rich? Like, that's what it feels like. Superman is pitching us on. Fantastic Four is pitching us on. It's just like, no, we gave y' all the world. Can we make you believe in something that's a little bit smaller, a little bit more heartwarming, a little bit that sticks to the ribs?

[Van Lathan]

Yeah. And living in a time where so much has already been seen. You know, we've seen it all, we've done it all, we've watched it all, we've heard it all. At least, that's where it feels. Sometimes the question is, at what point do you lose the momentum, or do you lose? Or does your ambition kind of choke you? I'll say this familiar Superman is supposed to be a familiar character. You're supposed to look at Superman and go, hey, I know him. That's like a nice guy with powers. But if he comes around and it's like, let's make a mad Superman. He's mad, he's sad. You know, he's like Carmi, and he's flying around. People are gonna be like, I don't kind of understand that. Right.

[Charles Holmes]

Or it works for a while. We want to see Homelander for a while. Until all versions of Superman are just Homelander.

[Van Lathan]

Right? And with this, I kind of feel the same. You can push things forward. You can try different things. The storytelling in the Bear was never conventional. It's never been conventional storytelling. And this storytelling in this season isn't conventional. But they've gotten back to the familiarity of the show that we had in the first season of it. So now we understand what we're being asked as an audience, because sometimes it would be like, well, what is this? Like, what am I supposed to feel like? Who's. And you can do that, but you can lose yourself doing it. You can put too many components on the plate easily. Atlanta, you mentioned Atlanta. The thing that worked about Atlanta was for as avant garde as Atlanta was, it was very familiar. Donald Glover did something so amazing with that show to where for black audiences. And that's a black show. It's a black show. A lot of times people act like black audiences can't handle stuff that is too artistic, that we're not. That we don't like that. And they go back to Tyler Perry and say, this is what you like. No, he grounded it in something that's very familiar to us. Characters that we know, people that we know, situations that we understood. And then once you have that buy in from your audience, once you have that seal of approval from your audience, you can take them niggas to space if you want. Like you can. And so that's the thing with the Bear. The feeling of inadequacy, the feeling of your best laid plans not quite working. How do I achieve greatness? Is it worth it? Will I find love, camaraderie in the face of overwhelming odds against you? They never get comfortable in this restaurant. This restaurant is an uncomfortable place. Behind the scenes. When they take us to the front of the house, nobody in the front of the house knows what's going on back there. That's the entry that keeps the show going. And so I think that when I watched it, I was wondering if the Bear was going to be able to kind of bring me back into this world and make me, like, really comfortable or really uncomfortable sitting there. And they were able to do it.

[Charles Holmes]

I mean, even talking about kind of Tyler Perry, Donald Glover, Sid's journey to me in this was super interesting. Super interesting because she's obviously the heartbeat of this place. This is now, I think, like the second or third time where someone has come into the restaurant and been like. Has tasted what she's put on the plate and been like, that's excellent. But what's fascinating as she's becoming more successful as her talent is getting recognized. You already brought it up. She's answering the phone for her father, Leslie. You know what I mean?

[Van Lathan]

And I was just like, is she becoming Carmi?

[Charles Holmes]

Well, if you think about it, Carmi started this restaurant running away from the land of Michelin stars. The way him and Sid connected was Michelin stars aren't important. Like, they've lost the plot. We want to make a place that people will love to come to. And now the irony is the only thing that's going to keep them afloat is chasing the Michelin star. And I see to your point, Sid, almost, maybe not emotionally, in terms of how she's treating people, becoming Carmi, but almost getting lost in the. Getting lost in, like, the maw of culinary. Culinary excellence a little bit where she seems a little adrift, where she can go with Shapiro, she can stay where she's at. But is this really the cooking that she wanted to do when we met her in season one? I don't think it is.

[Van Lathan]

Maybe not. And also, she also is. She's okay with telling everybody their truth, but she doesn't seem to be very okay with accepting hers, that she's. And it's so interesting for this character to be a black woman because she's essentially a caretaker.

[Charles Holmes]

Yeah.

[Van Lathan]

And if you don't like me talking about black women in terms of being caretakers or feeling like they have to be caretakers, but I'm gonna give my sisters the credit they deserve. And you're very, very rarely gonna meet a black lady who doesn't feel like it's their job to take care of you or to tell you how you should be moving if they see you off course or off code a little.

[Charles Holmes]

Bit, or seeing a black woman who almost the structure of the world and their workplace or whoever. Like, I've been in a place where I'm just like, damn, y' all turned her into, like, our mom.

[Van Lathan]

Right? Right. And so in that sense, she's doing that now. But there's life for her there. There's dad, there's opportunity. There's all kinds of stuff. Like, we didn't see very much of her outside of her functioning as the rudder of the bear in these three episodes. And there's going to have to be something, and maybe it'll be the phone call that Carmi made at the end of episode three. There's going to have to be something that kind of makes her think more directly about herself in the next batch of episodes.

[Charles Holmes]

Well, what I think is interesting, too, is that Sugar. There's this very important call that Sugar gives to Carmi when he realizes he hasn't met his niece yet, where she's just like, I saw how you were when you were leaving this place to go chase your culinary dreams and how much you loved it and how much the foodie loved you. And she's like, it's okay. If you've fallen out of love with this and me, I thought in the third episode, when he hops out of the train and he goes like he's running. I'm just like, oh, he's gonna go back to the kitchen. He found his love for it. He needs to cook right now, and he doesn't. He ends up at Claire's. And the reason I bring this up in terms of Sid is I'm like, oh, this is what the world does to you when you're talented, where you start on a journey where Cid is in love with the food. Critics are tasting it. They're just like, she is reaching the height of her power. And you see the bear and the culinary world grinding her down. And that's what's interesting to me, which is just like, can you exist in a workplace? Is being talented enough? Is love enough? And a lot of times, like, I've learned this, especially where I'm like, most of the time, it is not the thing that, like, you get into the industry for that you love will be. It's just the daily. Just like, I gotta wake up. People are counting on me. I need insurance. And I'm like, oh, can Sid maneuver past that?

[Van Lathan]

Yeah.

[Charles Holmes]

Will the love be enough for her?

[Van Lathan]

Interesting that we watched this during this time because I've been on a Bobby Fischer kick.

[Charles Holmes]

Yeah.

[Van Lathan]

And in the Bobby Fischer documentary, which is fantastic, something was said about Bobby Fischer, and it was like, listen, Bobby Fischer was like a real genius. His father was like a fantastic genius of some, so his mother was too. Just a very smart family, very smart guy. He had it. He had talent to be able to do the things he did. But he also played a lot of chess. And if you are going to be as great as he was at what he did, it can't be dutiful. It has to be the thing that you live and breathe for. It can't be dutiful. And we all know that, right? There's very few people that. Or as good as Michael Jordan at something and go, ah, you know, I was doing it to pay the bills. Very few people. But cooking is different in that it's really a competition between you and yourself that you are pushing yourself. And then somebody else gets to decide how that stuff makes you feel and how good you are at it. The show has made me understand just what a lyrical and emotional and romantic thing preparing a meal for somebody is and how much of yourself that you put into that. And then you give it away. And then someone gets to decide whether or not Anything that you did was worth it. In chess, you go out, you win. In basketball, you go out, you win. Even if you're Steve Jobs, you achieve this technological goal. Now, if people don't like it, people don't like it. But if you're able to do what you said you were going to do, that goes a very long way. But these people have to be like, in my opinion, at least they have to be wired in a certain way. This has to be both the most important thing in the world to them and something that they can let go, something that they can give to somebody and let go. And the entire show, at least these episodes, is about who's holding on and, like, who's letting go. Even rich, all of this stuff, like, what is worth holding on to the house that they're trying to sell? Is it worth holding on to your family in order? It's like holding on and letting go. Everybody's trying to serve their own different meal, in a way.

[Charles Holmes]

And food is. It's funny. Food is one of those things where it's like, for Carmi, I can serve you the thing that is actually, like, technically, everything on this plate has been cooked to perfection. And you should love this, because this is the highest form of culinary arts. And then you could put the Italian beef in front of someone, and they'll be like, I want another one of those. And I think that's the thing that frustrates Carmi, is that the thing he's running away from is that you always had the food right there. The food that this place your hometown Chicago wanted has been around for decades at this point. And you are trying to give them something that they're like, it's good, but.

[Van Lathan]

You'Re trying to give them yourself.

[Charles Holmes]

And they're like, no.

[Van Lathan]

Right. So what do you do? Like, what do you do? Do you find yourself with Claire? Do you find yourself in being an uncle? Your brother's gone. Your brother passed away, which is the inciting incident for all of this. The inciting incident for all of this is you feeling connected enough to your family that you want to come back and fulfill promises and fill emotional holes that your brother left. But then at the same time, your niece is born, and you don't go to say hello to her. It's this profound story or this profound idea, should I say, about what you should be doing in life and how grief and inadequacy and excellence are all kind of the same thing.

[Charles Holmes]

Yeah. And, I mean, I think that these three episodes did a good job of really Painting, like, I think what's scaring Carmi, the reason why he broke up with Claire, the reason why he hasn't met his niece, the reason why he's imploding, is that, like, Carmi's making room or is trying to make room to love other people and to put people before the food. Food used to be the thing. Food was the thing that saved him. Food is how he got out of Chicago. Food is how he didn't become his brother. Food is this thing that put him on this global. On this global stage. And sugar realizing, maybe you're not in love with him. Maybe you are in love with Claire Moore. Maybe you do want to be here for your niece more. Maybe you do want to be here for Richie more. And it might not be the food that's going to fulfill you. That is like, a very profound thing. Because I'm like. As you get older and you start seeing people, you're just like, oh, they became a father or a mother, and they made a very. I see it. They make a very specific. Like, I'm pouring my love into this child. I'm not. Do. Like, my career is taking a backseat. Everything else is taking a backseat for people and community. Not necessarily the art, you know, I'm.

[Van Lathan]

Gonna go back to the first scene between him and Mikey again, something that stuck out at me about the scene. So what is he cooking in the scene?

[Charles Holmes]

Tomato. The tomato sauce.

[Van Lathan]

Spaghetti sauce. Right.

[Charles Holmes]

The gravy.

[Van Lathan]

The gravy. You watch, I might get that shit. Tonight you watch Goodfellas, and everybody's making the gravy. Whenever you watch a movie about Italian people, unfortunately, I'm sorry. To my Italian peeps out there, they always got y' all making some kind of gravy. They got y' all making the. And Goodfellas. Let me come over here and tell you how to make this. This is what you do. Boom, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom. And it's in the Godfather. Let me tell you what you do. You put this, you put that, you put this, you put that.

[Charles Holmes]

Did you shave the guards?

[Van Lathan]

Shave the guards. You do the whole thing. But that has to be cooked with tomatoes, with garlic, with all of that stuff. But it has to be also cooked with love.

[Charles Holmes]

Yeah.

[Van Lathan]

And in that scene, Carmi is not paying attention to the sauce. Yep, Mikey is. Mikey's saying, you're adding too much garlic. Mikey's saying, it's sticking. I can hear it. And then there's a point where Carmi is so busy talking about how much his father loved this restaurant that he's not pouring love into the sauce, he's not stirring it at all. Because he's seeking something and not paying attention to what needs love from him and care from him that's right in front of him. Now. He obviously doesn't do that when he cooks. He doesn't. He doesn't do that when he cooks. When he cooks, he normally puts all of his focus into the meal, all of his ambition into the meal. He puts all of his creativity into the meal. But are we getting to the point to where Carmi's gonna learn how to put love into the meal? When my mama be cooking, my momma be in there and she'll be making the roux for the gumbo. And it takes a long time. It's not easy to make. Whenever somebody made a good gumbo for you, just kiss them and hug em real tight. Cause you gotta make that rule. You gotta stir that down, you gotta be there on top of it. It's not easy to make, but she wants you to love it so much. My mother loves you so much and she wants you to love the gumbo so much that she's right there and it's everything that's in her. If you try to get her off her mission, she will curse you out. I'm making my ruin here. Get out of here. Get back.

[Charles Holmes]

But that feeling of like, when my uncle or my nana would be done with the food, they'd be exhausted. But when they sit down, they see everybody eating. Like, there's just this smile, there's this bliss of just like, yeah, oh, it was fucking work. Like they're tired, their back hurts, whatever, but you can like see just like, oh. Like they're really quiet. They're just like, oh, I did it. And to your point, I think what's interesting, it's just not the food he has to pay attention and put love into. Like, Ibrah is like, essentially, you almost threw me away. Like you thought culinary. Like, it's so funny that Ibra, the person who was like feeling like the most pushed out by this new bear is the one who's keeping it afloat financially. You're just like, oh, this was. This is the guy who. You're just like, oh. And Carmi, you feel like Jeremy Allen White does such a good job where he's like, oh. Like you realize like, I almost fucked up.

[Van Lathan]

Good to see Rob Reiner coming in throwing heat as well. Yeah, Rob Reiner came in, Rob Reiner's like, look, looking spry. I like that shit. Man, Rob Reiner is a staple. Looking spry coming in. It's look. For me, the show asks so many questions. I love stuff about chefs. Yeah, we've talked about it before, but it's feeding someone and wanting to feed people and wanting to do it in an artistic, like, blissfully creative way is such an inherently interesting endeavor because you're.

[Charles Holmes]

Not going to get rewarded. And it's like, this is also doing, like, the bear has constantly been like, it's hard to run a restaurant. You're not going to. You're probably not going to get rich. You're dealing with fucking critics, assholes. And you just like. And you're realizing when they're making it like, damn. But these people love it so much. That does. Doesn't matter. But my. The last question I have for you before we get out of here is, I think before. Before this season, I think it was expected that this was going to be the final season.

[Van Lathan]

Yeah.

[Charles Holmes]

They are not promoting it like it's the final season. I think there was. There was kind of like an interesting back and forth where it seemed like this. The bear was originally only supposed to be three seasons, and then I think FX kind of was just like, come on, we need a four season. Do you think there's more meat on the bone? Because I think you were the first. You were the first person with the. With Shogun to be like, nah, they're making more of this.

[Van Lathan]

And.

[Charles Holmes]

And it very much felt like they're making more.

[Van Lathan]

Well, it all depends. Shogun was just like a business. Cause Shogun ran out of story. Ain't no more story to Shogun. But Shogun, they were gonna bring it back just because it was so commercially and critically acclaimed. This is different. If I had this type of show, I would never fully let it go. Now I don't know how long it takes to shoot the bear. I don't know what kind of commitment it is from the cast and from the writing team, but if I had this type of show that, particularly a show that's like a half hour and moves like this, I wouldn't let it go. Because you have seen this. People are in the stratosphere. We got Ben Grimm on this show. We got the first Bruce Springsteen. We got Bruce Springsteen on this show.

[Charles Holmes]

You got literally Ayo Debris, Eddie Zingle, Thomas, a black actress. They're like, hey, yo, what's IO do?

[Van Lathan]

Yeah, everything and everything. If these people's movies, careers. Movie careers keep going the way that they're going, they're just not gonna have time for the show.

[Charles Holmes]

But actually the reason why I think it might be different is like, I think that that was true. And I think the industry is in such a fucking topsy turvy place.

[Van Lathan]

I agree with you.

[Charles Holmes]

I wouldn't be surprised if all of these people, even though they are gigantic, everybody on this is in the stratosphere. They're like, money wise, prestige, it's.

[Van Lathan]

We can come back to the Bear. Like, you can come back to the Bear. And it's a story that we care about. It's not like I can't speak like I know what kind of heavy lift the show is. Cause I'm not on set with them. But I think the bear should last as long as there is story.

[Charles Holmes]

And this was the first three episodes. We have to see the rest of the season. I was just like, oh, there does seem to be more stories to be told. And it's like, I do think this is the type of show where I was just looking at the credits. The fourth episode is directed by I.O. and fucking Lionel Boyce. So I even think some of them are using this as a chance where IO is just like, I don't just want to be an actress, I want to direct. And she could go to Christopher Storr and be like, hey, yo, like, let me get behind the chair. I do think that there are all of these people are probably like, hey, shit, man. Do 10 episodes a year every other year, right?

[Van Lathan]

Ain't really, hey, it's not gonna be Always Sunny and be on for like, Always Sunny was on when I was still living. Shout out to the cast of Always Sunny, man.

[Charles Holmes]

Yeah, man.

[Van Lathan]

Always Sonny was on when I was living with my boys Dan and Brett Pico and Fairfax, back in the day.

[Charles Holmes]

I was in middle school. I'm 32 now, and always Sonny was on.

[Van Lathan]

And they were like, this show is the funniest fuck. I'm like, what is this fucking shit? And you go down and pound for pound. That show. My. It's one of the funniest shows of all time, but it's like hysterical.

[Charles Holmes]

But what did they learn on Always Sunny? I think they learned where it's like all of that Rob McElhony is popping now. Like, all Charlie. Charlie Day, all of them are popping. But I think they learned the stuff that like fucking Larry David learned with Curb, where it's like, you never really tell people is done right? Because like, sometimes when shit gets a little sticky, just come back and everybody's like, our friends are back.

[Van Lathan]

But I'll say this first three episodes of the show. Fantastic.

[Charles Holmes]

Fantastic.

[Van Lathan]

Really in love.

[Charles Holmes]

Couldn't agree.

[Van Lathan]

Really in love. Really in love with what they're doing was great. Moves very fast. Moves very fast.

[Charles Holmes]

Yes. That's what I enjoyed.

[Van Lathan]

I'm like, damn, this show moves very fast. Don't check your text messages, watch everything. All the music cues are right there. First three episodes. Fantastic.

[Charles Holmes]

We're back.

[Van Lathan]

I love them. We're back.

[Charles Holmes]

We're back. But, guys, we're going to be on the prestige TV feed, YouTube, Spotify, whatever. Rest of the season. Make sure you tap in. Thank you to my man Van Lathan. Thank you to CT behind the boards. Thank you to Justin Sales, the. The person who's managing and running all of Prestige. And we'll be. We'll be back soon.